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Author Topic: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.  (Read 3183 times)

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Offline AtHomePizza

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Its another weekend and another attempt at pies.
Before this weekend, I searched specifically within the New York Style section as that is my objective.
Found 2 different recipes within the NY Style threads and both were significantly better than what I have done since starting.

Here are my last 2 recipes used prior to the ones for this weekend. Once thing to note is I was previously using 21-34g of sugar compared to this weeks recipe which is only about 6g of sugar.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67955.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67956.0

This week was the first working with my modified grill which is supposed to trap in more heat.
Also, I kept the lid closed the entire time.

Dough 1

Ingredients
00 Flour          205g 
Regular Flour   100g
Water             186g
Suger               6g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 5g
Oil                   9g

Pie Making
This dough was difficult to work with when making the pie.
It took a lot of work and had a lot of elasticity.

Cooking
Previously the grill was opened after 5 minutes to rotate the pie, but this time the lid remained closed for the entire 9:30 minutes @ 560 degrees.
Usually 9:30 is the max. Pushing to 10 and there is significant risk in burning the crust.
But this time when the pie was removed, it was actually cooked much less than any of my previous weeks.

QUESTION : Since sugar helps with the browning, I suspect the significant reduction in sugar for this weeks recipe actually slowed down the cooking.

Crust/Taste
After placing the pie on the counter and looking at the crust, it was clearly undercooked.
But the crust didn't taste undercooked. It was soft and fluffy.
In fact, even my wife commented it was the best tasting crust I have done so far.

QUESTION : Since this recipe uses much less salt and sugar than previously, from where is this taste coming?

Concerns
I specifically searched in the NY Style section for the recipe and as you can see from the pictures, the crust is still a bit on the thick side.

QUESTION : Since this recipe is a NY Style, what else needs to be done to get it thinner? Should the pie have been made thinner?

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 03:10:58 PM »
Dough 2

Ingredients
00 Flour          247g 
Regular Flour   100g
Water             242g
Sugar               3.47g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 10g
Oil                   4g

Pie Making
This dough was a pleasure to work it.
It basically stretched itself out.  :D

Cooking
I lowered the temp to about 550 degrees and cooked the pie for about 12 minutes.
As stated above, usually 9:30 is the max.

QUESTION : Should I care that the pie is taking 12 minutes to cook?

Crust/Taste
After placing the pie on the counter and looking at the crust, it was cooked much more thoroughly than pie 1.
You can even see nice air pockets.
I thought it was great but my wife insists the first was much better.

Concerns
As with pie 1, this crust is still a bit on the thick side.

QUESTION : Since this too is a NY Style recipe, what else needs to be done to get it thinner?


Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 03:12:31 PM »
Most of my previous pies were a bit undercooked on the top especially the top of the crust.

For this week, I added a cookie sheet on top to help trap in some heat.


Offline Fiorot

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 03:55:17 PM »
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   For NY you are way too thick are those pies 12 inches?.   Since you say the dough was very elastic it could be too cold when opening, not kneaded enough or did not ferment long enough.  Also 00 flour is not your friend for NY a Bread Flour or High Gluten Flour is called for. Your dough 2 was 67percent hydration more like 55- 60 for NY    If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.  You kinda made a low heat Neapolitan    Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.   Add malt for help with browning.   Also for reference my local Pizzeria uses a 22 oz ball for the 18inch NY pie =which is 627 grams.   
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:00:31 PM by Fiorot »

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 04:07:51 PM »
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   

1 hour on the counter before in the frig for 12 hours.
On the counter about 2.5 hours prior to making the pies.

For NY you are way too thick are those pies 12 inches?.   

Didn't measure but as a point of reference the working area on the peel is 14x15


If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while. 
Open the skin  ???
let it rest and open it again ???
Not familiar with this term.

Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.   

Dough 2 is only 347.

Add malt for help with browning.
Sugar helps with the browning.
When/How does one determine whether to use sugar or malt?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:10:21 PM by AtHomePizza »

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Offline Peter B

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2021, 04:08:33 PM »
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   For NY you are way too thick.   Since you say the dough was very elastic it could be too cold when opening, not kneaded enough or did not ferment long enough.  Also 00 flour is not your friend for NY a Bread Flour or High Gluten Flour is called for. Your dough 2 was 67percent hydration more like 55- 60 for NY    If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.  You kinda made a low heat Neapolitan    Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.

I agree with many of the notes here.  I have found that when you are pressing out the skin, you want to make the crust much smaller than you think you need to.  Dough stretching instructions always seem to suggest a crust that ends of being much too thick, which is what I think you found here.
If you want to get the whole thing thinner, how long do you have it out of the fridge before stretching?  You probably want to go for 2-3 hours.  And you may find that you feel like you are stretching it too much, but if the dough is fermented right, be aggressive with the stretch.
I think 12 minutes may be too long what you want.  My guess is 8-10 is what you want to shoot for.  I am curious why you decided to remove the sugar, and what size pie you are going for.  that recipe looks like you should be able to do 15-16".
Hope that helps
The Broz
I said to my little one, "come here so I can change you".
He said "change only comes from within".  :-/

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2021, 04:12:36 PM »
  I am curious why you decided to remove the sugar, and what size pie you are going for.  that recipe looks like you should be able to do 15-16".

My previous recipes had much more salt and sugar hoping to get some nice flavor and these recipes starting point where general pizza recipes.

The recipes from today were extracted specifically from the NY Style section of this web site.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2021, 04:14:26 PM »
Dough 2 is only 347.
No, Fiorot is right.
-Tony

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2021, 04:27:00 PM »
No, Fiorot is right.
Ooooooooooooh, total weight.
I was focusing on flour weight only. :-[
« Last Edit: February 13, 2021, 04:29:06 PM by AtHomePizza »

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2021, 04:28:27 PM »
Add malt for help with browning.   Also for reference my local Pizzeria uses a 22 oz ball for the 18inch NY pie =which is 627 grams.

For these pies, what would be the appropriate amount of malt (grams)?

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Offline Peter B

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2021, 04:35:15 PM »
No, Fiorot is right.
^^^

You need to include the water weight.

You probably want to be in the range of 1-2% sugar.  Your setup may not be giving enough top heat, so your pizza stone sandwich is a good idea.  How thick are the stones and how long are you preheating?  You will want to go at least an hour, and maybe more with a thicker stone.  Just because the stone measures a good temp on the surface, that does not mean it is heated through.

So - I would experiment with the sugar and if you have the malt, use it.  But I think sugar is sufficient.

If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.

Skin = your dough.
If the dough is too cold when you go to stretch, it will be more of a challenge to stretch.  Think of hot yoga.  They heat up the room, so you are looser.  But if you tried to do yoga outside in the winter, you would be a lot more tense.  When you let it relax, it is continuing to come up to room temp, but the gluten strands are also relaxing which will help you open it up further.  Just be mindful to not go too far and tear it.
Hope that helps.
The Broz
I said to my little one, "come here so I can change you".
He said "change only comes from within".  :-/

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2021, 04:38:08 PM »
How does one "open the skin"?
Do I poke holes with a knife?
Make a 1/2 incision along the length of the dough?

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2021, 07:28:43 PM »
AtHomePizza, opening the skin is forming the dough ball into a circle that is the size of the pizza you intend to make. There are many methods and you need to find the one that feels comfortable. You can even use a rolling pin if you like, but the cornice will be flat which I believe is ok for NY style. there is a glossary of pizza terms used on this site. Might be helpful.
There are many youtube videos that show how to "open" a dough ball. Tony Gemignani has one that leaves the dough on the table, others show picking the dough up and stretching using the weight of the dough and gravity . Many options to try.


Mark
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2021, 08:00:27 PM »
Top heat is a challenge with a grill. The few times I used a grill I was fortunate to be able to work around it by using extra heaters that were above the grate and designed to be used for rotisserie.

PS - I agree with QD's advice last week that having one dedicated thread would be helpful both for you and for us trying to help.
Matt

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2021, 09:44:53 AM »

PS - I agree with QD's advice last week that having one dedicated thread would be helpful both for you and for us trying to help.

It may be a few weeks before getting back to pizza making.
If I update an old thread with the latest pie results, how would one know its actually an update with new pie and results to be reviewed and not a general update to an old thread.
On most message boards, threads tend to die and get less feedback as they age.

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2021, 09:57:44 AM »
People here are very attentive..we click the "new" button shown below to read new posts and answer questions from the new posts.

My thread is 85 pages and still generates discussion when I post something new. But a better example is the Greek thread where we continue to have discussion based on new posts - and the thread was started by the founder of the board way back in 2004.

Edit: 2 reasons why I suggest this: 1) it'll give you a place to track your progress and 2) its gives us background on what you've tried and info you've already received.  For example, in my post to you I commented that top heat is a challenge for grills. But I have no idea whether you've already discussed that.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2021, 10:00:02 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2021, 12:55:56 PM »
i made the same point about top heat in opís last post. i also asked the same question fiorot asked about dough process. and i posted links to mattís long running thread and others so the op has a perspective on how that works.

for me, the idea of a new thread every week where we all cover the points already made in opís past threads is unworkable. personally, iíd rather spend my time more efficiently helping others.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2021, 12:59:28 PM by quietdesperation »
jeff

Offline piesofsatan

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2021, 01:58:50 PM »
Please, please make your own personal thread instead of a new thread each bake. A new thread each bake just makes the board cluttered.



Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2021, 02:40:34 PM »
ok, ok, point well taken.  :chef:

I didn't plan on cooking again for a few weeks but based on replies on my other threads along with this thread I am eager to test out some things.

If I do, I will definitely make any updates to this thread, but have been posting new threads for any stand-alone, generic general questions.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2021, 02:59:41 PM »

I didn't plan on cooking again for a few weeks but based on replies on my other threads along with this thread I am eager to test out some things.


I'd warn you that it's easy to get sucked into this hobby. But it looks like I may be too late, you're one of us now  :)

Matt

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