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Author Topic: Troubleshooting making 18" NY Pie using screen on round 16" pizza stone  (Read 548 times)

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Offline Santo

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I recently tried making my first 18" NY Style cheese pizza. I have made a few 16" NY style pizzas directly on the stone with some pretty good success,  but this was my first try at the 18" with the screen on top of my round 16" stone.  This was my formula, working with KABF:
456 g flour as per Lehman recipe. I also took many hints from Craig's NY style pizza thread. Thanks Craig your pizza looks amazing.
278 g water (61%)
9.12g salt (2%)
13.68 g oil (3%)
4.56g sugar (1%)
1.82g yeast (0.4%)
13.68g ldmp (3%)

I mixed my dough in a food processor. I then took it out of the processor and worked it briefly into a  tight smooth dough ball. As I was getting ready to put it in the bowl with some light oil, I noticed the top of my dough ball had a weird leathery feeling to it. I was a little worried that I possibly overkneaded the dough.

I left the dough to rise at room temp (~76 F) for 5 hours.

I preheated my oven to convection roast at 550 F for one hour, with my 16" round stone on the bottom rack. I put the dough in the fridge for the last 45 min- 1 hour to help keep it a little stiff and firm to prevent holes or other mistakes during the edge stretching. I stretched the dough nicely onto the 18" screen. I put about 7 oz of sauce, generous layer of parm and 10 oz of WMLM mozz - Galbani.

I put the screen with the topped pizza right on top of my stone for about 3 minutes, at which point i removed the pizza from the screen and allowed the pizza to cook on the stone. The crust/edges of the pizza were drooping off of the 16" stone because it is an 18" pizza on a small stone. It was basically falling down and drooping. This made me nervous but i stayed the course. I kept it cooking for about a total of 6 minutes 25 seconds including the time it was on the screen, and I realized the bottom of the pizza was burning even before the cheese had a chance to fully melt or caramelize.

I took the pizza out to rest on the cooling rack. I cut it and noticed the bottom of my pizza was rather flat and had a weird smooth feeling, and the crust didn't have much oven spring, and parts of it, especially the part that drooped down but made contact with the edge of the stone, were burned black. Most of the pie had a fine taste but definitely not my best work. A step back in many ways, it seemed.

I was wondering if the reason why my bottom of my pizza had this weird flat quality was due to the screen style cook, and then after I removed the pizza from the screen it cooked directly on the stone, but it was obviously  too large for my stone, and it didn't get  full contact with the stone in the first moments of the bake, or was it related to the fact that I possibly over kneaded the dough in my food processor? I will remind you of the weird leathery feeling of the top of my dough ball after i balled it at the beginning stages. Was this the culprit in my flat lifeless dough?

As well, my crust did not turn golden brown in any spots. it was mainly white / black or gray. I am considering putting my pizza stone in the middle rack and trying again this way, or maybe just sticking with the fact that 16" pies are the best thing I can produce with my tools at this time and the screen method may just be kind of a hack that isn't going to make my best possible product. I am also considering knocking my LDMP down to 2%. Would this help me get a more golden color as opposed to the white/gray/black colors?

I am kind of annoyed that i only have a 16" stone because obviously having the 18" pie is tempting but i feel like it is not authentic to the NY style to not cook it directly on the stone, and use the peel to launch. I feel like i had much better results when i launched with a normal 16" pie.

Can anyone shed some insight on all of this? Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Santo,

Some time ago, I made an 18" Lehmann NY style pizza using an 18" screen with my 14" x 16" stone. However, my oven does not have a convection feature. I described what I did in the post at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

I also used my food processor to make pizza dough. I described how I did this at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

There is also an article on using a food processor to make pizza dough that you might also find useful. It is at:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/02/pizza-protips-kneading-converting-recipes-for-food-processor.html

I also noticed that you fermented your dough at a temperature of about 76F for 5 hours and presumably that was followed by 45 minutes to an hour in the refrigerator. As I see it, your dough was what is often referred to as an "emergency" dough, or something close to it. Normally, when making an emergency dough, one uses about double the normal amount of yeast and also a water temperature that is high enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90F. You did not specify what kind of yeast you used and how you settled on 0.40%. You also did not say what water temperature you used or the finished dough temperature you achieved. Can you clarify these matters for us? Also, can you tell us the Lintner degrees number for the particular LDMP product you used, and why you chose to use that product, given that the KABF flour you used is a malted flour?

In going over what you posted, and especially in relation to the yeast issue, I took a look at member Craig's post at Reply 188 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 (click to enlarge)

I looked at the chart to see how much yeast you might have used if you followed Craig's chart.

Peter




Offline Peter B

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Lots to unpack here.  For starters, I don't think you kept your pie on the screen for nearly long enough, regardless of whether it was sitting on the stone or not.  When I was doing something similar, I had my screen directly on the rack which was just a few inches above the bottom heating element.  So the heat was going directly from the element to the bottom of the pie - not being absorbed by a stone.  Even at that - I left my pie there for 5 minutes before moving off the screen to my stone or steel.
After some calamities when moving the pie from the screen to the stone, I stopped that process.  Now I bake on the screen above the bottom element for 8 minutes with the stone sitting on the rack just above it to radiate some top heat.  After 8 minutes, I move the screen and the pie to sit on top of the stone to get some broiler heat for two minutes.  I have been really happy with the results.
Hope this helps.  I'll defer to others on your dough mix and ferment, as your process is very different from mine.
I said to my little one, "come here so I can change you".
He said "change only comes from within".  :-/

Offline Pete-zza

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Lots to unpack here.  For starters, I don't think you kept your pie on the screen for nearly long enough, regardless of whether it was sitting on the stone or not.  When I was doing something similar, I had my screen directly on the rack which was just a few inches above the bottom heating element.  So the heat was going directly from the element to the bottom of the pie - not being absorbed by a stone.  Even at that - I left my pie there for 5 minutes before moving off the screen to my stone or steel.
After some calamities when moving the pie from the screen to the stone, I stopped that process.  Now I bake on the screen above the bottom element for 8 minutes with the stone sitting on the rack just above it to radiate some top heat.  After 8 minutes, I move the screen and the pie to sit on top of the stone to get some broiler heat for two minutes.  I have been really happy with the results.
Hope this helps.  I'll defer to others on your dough mix and ferment, as your process is very different from mine.
The Broz,

Your post raises an interesting and valuable point that is often not considered, or sufficiently considered, by pizza makers. And that point is that one of the most important things that a pizza maker, and especially a novice pizza maker, has to learn is how to marry a given pizza dough recipe and its given style to the oven and related pizza gear (such as screens, pans, steels, and stones) that the pizza maker plans to use. And in a general way this problem has become more aggravated because of the extremely large number of ovens that are now available, from all around the world. When I joined the forum, with a few exceptions, most of us just had a standard home oven and maybe a pizza stone. Now the options are virtually unlimited. And, for that reason, diagnosing problems has also been made more difficult.

Peter

Offline jkb

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You have pics?  I used to bake 16" pies on a screen on a 14X16 stone before I got my 20" fibrament.  I left them on until they set and never had a problem with droop or browning.  Are you sure you didn't forget the yeast? (Been there, done that)
John

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Offline Santo

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Santo,

Some time ago, I made an 18" Lehmann NY style pizza using an 18" screen with my 14" x 16" stone. However, my oven does not have a convection feature. I described what I did in the post at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

I also used my food processor to make pizza dough. I described how I did this at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291#msg19291

There is also an article on using a food processor to make pizza dough that you might also find useful. It is at:

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/02/pizza-protips-kneading-converting-recipes-for-food-processor.html

I also noticed that you fermented your dough at a temperature of about 76F for 5 hours and presumably that was followed by 45 minutes to an hour in the refrigerator. As I see it, your dough was what is often referred to as an "emergency" dough, or something close to it. Normally, when making an emergency dough, one uses about double the normal amount of yeast and also a water temperature that is high enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90F. You did not specify what kind of yeast you used and how you settled on 0.40%. You also did not say what water temperature you used or the finished dough temperature you achieved. Can you clarify these matters for us? Also, can you tell us the Lintner degrees number for the particular LDMP product you used, and why you chose to use that product, given that the KABF flour you used is a malted flour?

In going over what you posted, and especially in relation to the yeast issue, I took a look at member Craig's post at Reply 188 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 (click to enlarge)

I looked at the chart to see how much yeast you might have used if you followed Craig's chart.

Peter

Thank you for your detailed answer and links to your previous posts which explain how to use the screen and food processor. In fact, I have seen your food processor post before and I definitely did follow what you said about the pulse method, being careful to never run the machine for more than 10-15 second bursts.
1. I did not measure the temperature of the water I used, but i did aim for a general luke-warm water.
2. I used 0.40% IDY and mixed it in with the flour.
3. I used 0.40% because Craig kept on stating that amount in his formulation had worked for him. But then some other commenters mentioned that 0.40% may be a mistake because it doesn't align with the yeast fermentation chart. He also agreed that 0.40% may have been a typo. That chart confuses me as a beginner and was worried that anything less than his originally suggested 0.40% IDY would not give me a good enough rise in a 5 hour window. I am very interested in doing same-day doughs and Craig kept on saying that he feels all you need is 3-5 hours and you can make a good pizza, in his thread. This approach fits my lifestyle the most and I was hoping it would work out. In fact I used this approach with success in the past for a smaller (16") pizza, but I have not made such a great amount of pizzas that I can count on or know what exactly i have done that has worked for me consistently. Can you give me any tips on how to pull this type of same-day dough off better?
4. Craig and others talked about LDMP and how it can bring about better browning and crisp, which is something I have struggled with. So I purchased one on Amazon. The Lintner degrees: I honestly am not sure how to find that out. I am using this product https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pmak-20.

Offline fugo

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From the Hoosier Hill web site for 5# and 25# sizes:

"The Litner rating for Hoosier Hill Farm Dry Malt (Diastatic) Baking Powder is 60."

Suspect it's the same for the 1.5#.
Doug

Offline Peter B

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I have the Hoosier Hill as well.  IIRC, Tom had said to not use more than 0.5% when the Lintner value was as high as this product, otherwise the crust would be gummy (and possibly other ramifications that I do not recall).
My typical formula that I have settled on uses 2% sugar, so sometimes I just do 1.75% of actual white sugar and .25% of the LDMP.  I have not noticed a difference between the two, but I have not tested them side by side.  I would guess that if I did, I would be able to detect a tiny difference and not really have a preference between the two.
I said to my little one, "come here so I can change you".
He said "change only comes from within".  :-/

Offline Pete-zza

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Santo,

Early in my pizza learning days I made an emergency type Lehmann NY style dough just to see what such a dough would be like. I ended up discussing my results at Reply 497 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg27251;topicseen#msg27251

You will note that some of the links in the main discussion no longer work so you should look at the EDITS at the bottom of the page.

Later, in the same thread, another member, Dwain, had good success with his Lehmann emergency type dough, as is discussed starting with Reply 11515 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg517892#msg517892

You might also want to take a look at the collection of emergency type doughs, including NY style, that I put together at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg71576#msg71576

After looking at some of the recipes in the collection, it looks like your IDY quantity may not be a problem, although you may want to use warmer water. You might also want to take a look at Essen 1's dough formulation (which also includes LDMP) and procedures as set forth starting with Reply 1199 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg396642#msg396642

Peter


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