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Author Topic: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)  (Read 3176 times)

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Offline Peter B

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2021, 01:02:42 PM »
I can't figure out why I'm not getting the top heat I need from my Waring. I preheated to 600 for 90 minutes and then turned off the bottom heat element and maxed out the top heat. It still took about 10 minutes to bake on a screen the entire time. I'm looking for more char and a more airy crust, but I think I need to go higher hydration to get the more open crust.

Now I'm trying to figure out whether I have an issue with my oven or my outlets. Shouldn't take that long to cook a pie at that temperature. Was hoping for better results given the investment.

What's your technique with this oven? Thanks!

Just to clarify - you preheated the oven, then killed the bottom heat, maxed out the top heat, baked on a screen the whole time and still the bottom was done before the top?
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Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2021, 01:03:02 PM »
My Waring thermometer also reads 50 degrees below the dial setting. Is that your experience too?

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2021, 01:03:32 PM »
Just to clarify - you preheated the oven, then killed the bottom heat, maxed out the top heat, baked on a screen the whole time and still the bottom was done before the top?
That's correct.

Offline Joj

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2021, 04:18:46 PM »
I can't figure out why I'm not getting the top heat I need from my Waring. I preheated to 600 for 90 minutes and then turned off the bottom heat element and maxed out the top heat. It still took about 10 minutes to bake on a screen the entire time. I'm looking for more char and a more airy crust, but I think I need to go higher hydration to get the more open crust.

Now I'm trying to figure out whether I have an issue with my oven or my outlets. Shouldn't take that long to cook a pie at that temperature. Was hoping for better results given the investment.

What's your technique with this oven? Thanks!

I do love this oven and had a similar experience to yours (seeking shorter bakes, looking for the top to brown easily given the temps and low ceiling).
At first, I was frustrated as well (subpar top browning), the last ~10 bakes I have been using my eyes and what I am seeing vs "what I expect to be occurring."

Others may have different experiences and I do not have the touch yet to have same-day doughs come out looking like Essen1's but here is my oven technique.
  • Turn oven on (both top and bottom element, set to 650 degrees).
  • Wait 60-90 minutes (the bottom element as you have found is powerful, the bake experience changes the longer the oven is on/whether or not the bottom element is on).
  • The built-in thermometer on my Waring is wrong (~100 degrees off. I contacted Waring, their engineer recommended getting it replaced)
  • I use an oven thermometer (see below). When that is pegged past 600 I know I'm in the right neighborhood.
  • Launch pie on a screen, bake for 5 minutes, turn 180 degrees, bake for 5 minutes. If it's my first bake I will leave the bottom element on for the first half and shut it off for the second half.   
  • After the pie is done I flip the bottom element back on to prep for another pie.
  • If the bottom element has been on for a while (making a lot of pies/cocktails) then I will shut off the bottom when I launch the pie on a screen.

In my experience with my Waring, I have liked my 10-12 minutes bakes much more than shorter bakes. I have had far better browning with the 48hr cf doughs than a same-day dough (even with sugar & DM). I am still learning and would love other's feedback as well.

Offline Joj

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2021, 04:20:14 PM »
My Waring thermometer also reads 50 degrees below the dial setting. Is that your experience too?

Yes, mine is not close. I have it covered with tape and "Largely Irrelevant" written on it (:

I would try putting an oven thermometer inside to see what the interior temp actually is after you've had the long preheat.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 04:23:06 PM by Joj »

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Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2021, 04:34:34 PM »
Yes, mine is not close. I have it covered with tape and "Largely Irrelevant" written on it (:

I would try putting an oven thermometer inside to see what the interior temp actually is after you've had the long preheat.
Thanks so much for your detailed responses! I need some time to process how I feel about having to use such a convoluted process to get the results we want. At the price point, I would have assumed it'd have enough power from the top element to completely burn the top of a pizza if that were my intent. We shouldn't have to be maxing out the top heat to just barely get where we want and it shouldn't be a gamble on performance from one unit to the next. From Essen's photos, it's hard to believe we're using the same gear (not saying I have any clue what I'm doing with dough relative to him!). My expectations and the reality are not aligned much right now.

I don't want to intrude on your thread, but I'll plan to post some of my experiences here as well - with your approval. I've only baked three pies so far. Thanks again!

Offline Joj

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2021, 04:37:48 PM »
Thanks so much for your detailed responses! I need some time to process how I feel about having to use such a convoluted process to get the results we want. At the price point, I would have assumed it'd have enough power from the top element to completely burn the top of a pizza if that were my intent. We shouldn't have to be maxing out the top heat to just barely get where we want and it shouldn't be a gamble on performance from one unit to the next. From Essen's photos, it's hard to believe we're using the same gear (not saying I have any clue what I'm doing with dough relative to him!). My expectations and the reality are not aligned much right now.

I don't want to intrude on your thread, but I'll plan to post some of my experiences here as well - with your approval. I've only baked three pies so far. Thanks again!

When I spell it out like that it sounds convoluted but it flows pretty easily when you're actually doing it.

You're never intruding, the more Waring info/experiences out there the better. Bake more pies :)

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2021, 04:56:59 PM »
When I spell it out like that it sounds convoluted but it flows pretty easily when you're actually doing it.

You're never intruding, the more Waring info/experiences out there the better. Bake more pies :)
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Offline Zaroh

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2021, 02:40:50 AM »
Going to chime in here as well, I too see the 50 degree discrepancy on my built-in thermometer. I don't know if it's a positional issue of some sort, but given a few different users here see that behaviour it'd be a heck of a coincidence. Regardless, I still really like the oven. Maybe I should be more upset at it given the price tag, but it does not bother me a whole lot. Plus those pies are looking great Joj so that methodology you are using is working well.

Joj, you mentioned it's around 100 degrees off for you, are you finding the oven is actually cooler than what the built-in thermometer says, or warmer using your own oven thermometer?

My plan this weekend is to try and bake some pies at ~625F and see how they turn out. My very first bake with the oven I severely undercooked it. With baking temperatures higher than I was used to my eyes deceived me and I took it out too soon. So far I am feeling like a screen is absolutely necessary with the stock stone. It's funny because I told myself I would stick with the stock stone no matter what, but as I see more comments and data points about the bottom cooking faster than top, I am left wondering whether I should go for a stone that conducts less heat or takes longer to heat up in hopes of "balancing" things out. I want to give the out of box configuration a fair chance though, so sticking with stock deck for now.

I'm definitely on board for sharing more data and experience as well. Like you said the more the better, and everyone benefits from it. I'm a total newb compared to you guys, but excited to see what we can do with this oven. If you are OK with I'll happily post some info here as well (primarily fails most likely  ::) ) and we can expand the knowledgebase on this oven.

Offline Joj

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2021, 11:55:17 AM »
Zaroh,

My oven is substantially hotter than what the built-in thermometer says.

The screen is a must for me when balancing top/bottom heat.

Please do post any and all info!! We can learn a lot from perceived "failures," I prefer the term feedback instead.

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Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2021, 08:48:02 PM »
Same for me with the screen, absolute necessity.

I did some experimenting tonight, and I was somewhat surprised with what I saw. I set the oven to 650 and waited 90 minutes. The temperature inside settled out at 600. I then dialed it to 750 and, once again, the temperature settled 50 degrees lower than the dial around 700. The internal temperature was closer to 650, but I may not have allowed enough time after increasing the dial.

So in my case, my built-in thermometer seems accurate, but the oven temperature lags the dial by a somewhat consistent 50 degrees. Wonder if I can get the dial recalibrated... Not sure there's much else to test out without actually baking a pizza since I already tested my outlets. Not exactly scientific.

I may preheat for an hour and a half at 650 and then turn off the bottom element 15 minutes before my Sunday bake and see how that goes.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2021, 08:51:06 PM by pwc123 »

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2021, 10:14:52 AM »
Here's an hour and 45 minutes at 750 on the dial. Didn't hit 700 on the built-in thermometer and was below 650 inside.

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2021, 12:54:32 PM »
Preheated at 650 on the dial for 2 hours. Turned off the top element and maxed out then dial when I put the pie in. After about 8 minutes, I turned the bottom heat back on and the pie was taken out before 11 minutes. The cheese greased off heavily, but the pie ate well. Not sure what else I can tinker with to get the heat balance better.

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2021, 05:11:38 PM »
I have been using my 750 for about 2 years.  The top oven reacts a bit different than the bottom one.  What I can tell you  is with a screen it takes a long time to get the bottom correct.  I know this with repeated 18 inch pies.  The top tends to lead the bottom.  8 minutes is normal for me using the screen and I have gone to 650 when using them.  For a 16inch launch on the stone cooking times are reduced to 5 to 7 minutes.  And I have to watch the bottom more carefully and I also rotate the pie once about at 4 minutes same using the screen.    I do use sugar and dmp in my dough.  It browns the crust and bottom  faster.  My dough for NY Pie is 60 percent hydration and ALL trumps flour and grande is my cheese.   I find with a less cooked top the cheese is much more elastic.  As for fermentation times I have tried all up to 5 days.   The longer the time the less spring.  Yes more water will make that spring better.  Also let the oven recover 5 minutes before another launch.    Your pictures show the tops which some may consider towards the well done side.  If the only picture of the bottom with the screen then you need to lose the screen.  Also some semolina on the stone gives you more cooked color and spots. Just flour seems to keep the bottom light grey while the top is done.   Believe me the tile when broken in with dark areas really helps the cosmetic appearance on the bottom.  So scrape off the burnt crust but don't scrub the tile totally clean.  I was having some of the problems  you mention at the beginning of using the oven.   And there is nothing wrong with the oven or your outlets. btw I have never turned on and off the switches when baking and I think after 11/2 hours of preheating I don't think it makes a difference anyway. If anything it hurts the next pie.   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2021, 05:15:13 PM by Fiorot »

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2021, 05:36:07 PM »
I have been using my 750 for about 2 years.  The top oven reacts a bit different than the bottom one.  What I can tell you  is with a screen it takes a long time to get the bottom correct.  I know this with repeated 18 inch pies.  The top tends to lead the bottom.  8 minutes is normal for me using the screen and I have gone to 650 when using them.  For a 16inch launch on the stone cooking times are reduced to 5 to 7 minutes.  And I have to watch the bottom more carefully and I also rotate the pie once about at 4 minutes same using the screen.    I do use sugar and dmp in my dough.  It browns the crust and bottom  faster.  My dough for NY Pie is 60 percent hydration and ALL trumps flour and grande is my cheese.   I find with a less cooked top the cheese is much more elastic.  As for fermentation times I have tried all up to 5 days.   The longer the time the less spring.  Yes more water will make that spring better.  Also let the oven recover 5 minutes before another launch.    Your pictures show the tops which some may consider towards the well done side.  If the only picture of the bottom with the screen then you need to lose the screen.  Also some semolina on the stone gives you more cooked color and spots. Just flour seems to keep the bottom light grey while the top is done.   Believe me the tile when broken in with dark areas really helps the cosmetic appearance on the bottom.  So scrape off the burnt crust but don't scrub the tile totally clean.  I was having some of the problems  you mention at the beginning of using the oven.   And there is nothing wrong with the oven or your outlets. btw I have never turned on and off the switches when baking and I think after 11/2 hours of preheating I don't think it makes a difference anyway. If anything it hurts the next pie.
Thanks for the feedback. The bottom would have gotten more color had I turned the bottom element back on earlier, which I'll do next time. Doubtful I can cook a balanced pizza in my Waring directly on the stone.

And yes, I prefer a well done crust and haven't figured out how to get any leoparding on the top yet. Here are some pictures of what I'd like to be able to achieve in this oven (cooked in a standard oven with a broiler at my last place). I'll need to change around my dough to get that in the Waring though, if I can at all.

I'm using Sir Lancelot high gluten and Grande. I was using All Trumps before and haven't noticed much of a difference in performance.

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Offline Joj

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2021, 08:54:29 PM »
PWC, what is the current dough formulation you are using?

Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2021, 09:02:22 PM »
I did 63% today, but I usually do something with hydration in the high 50s. Generally use more sugar too. That dough was made on Thursday, so about 4 days on the CF. I haven't done enough experimenting with my dough - I'd be the first to admit that.

Offline Zaroh

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2021, 09:27:48 PM »
Those pies look great pwc! I did a bake of my own this afternoon. Overall I would say it wasn't spectacular or anything, but better than recent attempts and the taste was definitely there. With regards specifically to the oven, I did a pretty quick preheat where I set the dial to 675F, waited for the built-in thermometer to say 625F, then launched a pie in immediately on a screen. I "kept my nerve' this time where even when I saw some smoke coming out of the exhaust I kept it in for the full 10 minutes I had on the timer. What's interesting is to get to 625F I really only needed to preheat ~55 minutes to 1 hour. That includes the stone being ready, as it read ~680F.

I was following the Joe's recipe here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=66137.msg646629#msg646629 albeit my pies came out looking nothing like Joe's but I'm working on it. The only thing I did differently was a 4 hour RT ferment rather than 12 hour+ CF. I am also only doing 14'' pizzas until I really get dialed into a recipe and bake that I like.

Just for fun, I took my first pie off the screen for the last minute. I don't think it had much of an effect either way. My second pie I turned the bottom burner off 5 minutes before cooking, and in hindsight maybe I should have waited longer. I also ate the first pie before doing the second pie, which lead to it being somewhat overproofed hence the bubbles on the second one. For both the bottom was a little bit overdone, but it was still alright. Some photos below.

I am in Canada so I'm not using any of the common flours found in the U.S. Instead I am using a bread flour from Robin Hood which is one of the bigger brands in Canada. I am contemplating switching to All Purpose flour to see how that does by comparison. I'd originally switched to bread flour because I really wanted that browning on the bottom, but since that's no longer an issue maybe it's worth the switch back.


Offline pwc123

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2021, 09:38:04 PM »
Your pies looking tasty as well! Thanks for sharing.

Your top heat seems stronger than mine in both of your bakes today too. Lots of other variables at play though. My bakes also create steam that comes out of the rear of the oven. Crossed my mind that could be impacting the top crust browning.

Offline Zaroh

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Re: Joj's NY Style Learning Thread (Waring WPO500)
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2021, 10:04:16 PM »
Thanks! Still in the early days of playing with the oven, but I think the sugar helped quite a bit with this bake. I stopped using sugar for a while, but after today's bake I think it is worth keeping it in my recipe. I also took oil out per the Joe's recipe, although I did use oil in my proofing pans to make it easier to get the doughballs out. I am going to try and use up my bread flour in the next week or two, then I can post some results with AP flour.

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