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Author Topic: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.  (Read 2874 times)

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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2021, 07:49:03 PM »
Here are the results of my second pizza. Overall I think itís better than the first.

1. Iíve ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G so I will measure my ingredients by weight moving forward.

2. I believe I should have used more sauce. I believe that is evident?

3. I need to figure out how to ge the crust to brown without burning the cheese. I tired this method where I pre baked the dough and just sauce for a while and then took it out and added cheese. What happened was a giant bubble formed in the dough pre cheese and it looked like a pita. Can someone assist me in this regard?

5. I believe the crust is too thick? I should have made it smaller?

6. Open to any other comments, criticisms, and suggestions .

7. I should add I added a lil extra fresh mozzarella at the end ( it wasnít melted at the time of this pic).

You can experiment with varying sizes of cheese pieces. Fine grated cheese will melt and burn more quickly than cheese that has been cut from the block and cubed into 1/4" to 1/2" pieces. Thick whole slices will melt even more slowly, but are usually reserved for fresh mozzarella. Regarding the sauce and adding fresh mozzarella at the end, that is your preference! Crust thickness is also up to you. I usually shoot for 1/16" to 1/8" at the center. Sugar, diastatic malt, and oil will help with browning. Broiling is a great method to achieve browning also.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2021, 11:19:02 AM by TurkeyOnRye »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2021, 08:02:56 PM »
Chronic mole,

Piecing together everything you have told us, I think that the recipe you used but substituting all purpose flour should have worked for the most part (more on this later).

The way you measured out your all purpose flour seems to be close to the Textbook method of flour measurement as described in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm

If you accurately measured out the water (9 ounces), I estimate that the hydration of the dough you made was around 58.3%. That is a bit on the low side for an all purpose flour but the recipe also calls for a tablespoon of olive oil, or about 3%. Oil has a wetting effect on the dough even though it cannot hydrate the dough as water does. But it is common to combine the hydration and oil percents to see haw the combined number measures against the rated hydration value of the flour. In this case, the combined value is 58.3 + 3 = 61.3%. That number is close to 61%, which is a common rated absorption value for all purpose flour. But that does not mean that the hydration value used to make the dough shouldn't be higher. In cases like this, it is common to raise the hydration by a couple of percent to start to see if that improves matters. And make further adjustments in future efforts if deemed necessary or desirable.

What surprised me when I looked at the recipe you used is the amount of IDY, at one teaspoon. That amount of yeast comes to about 0.688%. In my judgment, that amount is high for a dough that is to be cold fermented for a day. It might also cause the dough to ferment too quickly and cause the yeast to consume the sugars created in the dough too quickly, leaving too little residual fermentation sugars to contribute to crust coloration. I would be inclined to use something closer to 0.40%. Otherwise, I would add about 1-2% sugar to the dough.

The salt, at around 1%, if correct, is on the low side and would not restrain yeast performance as much as a higher value of salt. A more typical value would be around 1.5-1.75%.

I still think it is a good idea to find a good basic recipe to use and try it out a few times, and make tweaks as warranted, much as member TurkeyOnRye suggested earlier in this thread. That is how one learns to make good pizza.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2021, 03:03:36 PM »
Chronic mole,

I had meant to mention in my last post that the recipe you used makes a dough of around 25.62 ounces by my best estimation. In that regard, I noticed that the instructions for the recipe does not give a pizza size. I took a guess that the amount of dough mentioned above is perhaps for an 18" pizza. Using that size, I calculated the thickness factor to be 25.62/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.10. Most NY style pizzas tend to have a thickness factor of around 0.085 but I have seen larger thicknesses than that but not quite 0.10. To get to 0.085, you would want to use 3.14159 x 9 x9 x 0.085 = 21.63 ounces of dough. I might add that in my own case, in a home setting, I have tended to like a thickness factor of around 0.10.

An an alternative to the 18" size, you could cut the dough into two pieces, each weighing around 12.8 ounces, and make two 14" pizzas. The thickness factor in that case would be around 12.8/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.083.

Your numbers may vary a bit, but using the Textbook method of flour measurement does not yield a big difference in numbers between high gluten flour (as called for in the recipe you used) and all purpose flour. The difference is slight.

If you decide you want to try the recipe again and increase the amount of salt, you can use 2 1/4 teaspoons (1.75%). If you would like to add some sugar, you can use 1 3/4 teaspoons (1%).

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2021, 09:57:48 PM »
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2021, 09:51:52 AM »
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?
Chronic mole,

Tom Lehmann used to suggest that one open up dough balls after removal from the refrigerator or cooler once the internal temperature of the dough was 50-60F:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58962.msg591518;topicseen#msg591518

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61162.msg611269#msg611269

My practice has been to use around 60F and sometimes a bit higher.

Peter


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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2021, 11:20:21 AM »
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?

Chronic mole,

Tom Lehmann used to suggest that one open up dough balls after removal from the refrigerator or cooler once the internal temperature of the dough was 50-60F:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58962.msg591518;topicseen#msg591518

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61162.msg611269#msg611269

My practice has been to use around 60F and sometimes a bit higher.

Peter

I would make a concerted effort to get the temperature down in my kitchen. A steep temperature gradient can cause the dough to rise on the outer surface while the inside remains cold and biochemically-hypoactive. You could experiment with putting the dough container inside another closed container to create an air space which might help. However, I have not tried this out for myself.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 11:33:17 AM by TurkeyOnRye »

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2021, 07:55:13 PM »
Thank you both. I have been conducting extensive research on this forum and I'm planning my next bake soon. Some further questions.

1. This is the stone I use in my oven ( the only stone I could find here)... I wonder is it to thick? https://www.hardwareandtools.com/omaha-bbq-37239-stone-pizza-bgka-2676.html

2. I have bought a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G. this is the dough recipe I plan on using, can i have your thoughts?:

    Grams
Flour(100%)   235.43
Water(63%)   148.32
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)   0.94
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)   4.71
Olive Oil (2%)   4.71
Sugar (0.8%)   1.88
Total (168.2%)   396
Single Ball (1 balls total)   396






Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2021, 10:04:11 AM »
Chronic mole,

I can't speak to the stone, although I did not see a thickness given for it.

As for the recipe you posted, it looks to be a workable formulation but the only way to know is to simply try it.

What size pizza do you intend to make?

Peter

Offline Anton1

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2021, 11:38:03 AM »
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?

See reply #261 for yeast suggestions: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2021, 12:32:16 PM »
See reply #261 for yeast suggestions: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271

Anton1
Anton,

Good thinking. After I had posted, I thought of the same thread that you cited.

What I observed over the years was that Tom Lehmann's favorite amount of yeast for different doughs, including the NY style, was 0.375% IDY, and the dough could cold ferment for up to three days. Here is a typical post in this regard:

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60439.msg605879;topicseen#msg605879

Since the 0.375% number had stuck out in my mind, out of curiosity this morning I did a search of Tom's posts in which he mentioned the 0.375% IDY. There were 68 posts ;D

Peter

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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2021, 12:38:02 PM »
Chronic mole,

I can't speak to the stone, although I did not see a thickness given for it.

As for the recipe you posted, it looks to be a workable formulation but the only way to know is to simply try it.

What size pizza do you intend to make?

Peter

15 inch pie . I wonder if I should increase the amount of sugar to help the crust brown .

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2021, 01:55:00 PM »
15 inch pie . I wonder if I should increase the amount of sugar to help the crust brown .
Chronic mole,

Increasing the amount of sugar a bit shouldn't be a problem. However, Tom Lehmann usually recommended adding about 1-2% sugar to a NY style dough formulation if the cold fermentation period exceeded about two days.

As for your pizza size, a dough ball weighing 396 grams is 396/28.35 = 13.968 ounces. For a 15" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor would be 13.968/(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.079. That is on the low side for a basic NY style pizza. For a 14" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 0.0907. As between the two sizes, I personally would go with the 14" size. But that is up to you. Doing is how one learns.

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2021, 10:22:56 PM »
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2021, 05:41:54 AM »
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?

It all has to do with the brand. I may be wrong, but I believe there is no industry standard for protein content in bread flour. It looks like your bread flour is Gold Medal, which is a brand that has been known to produce flours that are pretty low in protein. It might be fair to note that there is likely rounding involved in the calculation. Send the manufacturer an email for a more precise answer.

Offline jsaras

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2021, 10:27:34 AM »
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan. 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2021, 11:08:31 AM »
See these posts by the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57478.msg583373#msg583373

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36378.msg363250#msg363250

From the photos, it looks like the two flours are from two different companies.

Peter


Offline Anton1

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #36 on: April 26, 2021, 10:00:27 AM »
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?

Consider that the same millís product may have different properties depending on where itís sold, as noted here: http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm

And also the quality of the gluten as well as the quantity as detailed here: https://www.ffi.nz/product/glutomatic/

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Offline 9slicePie

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #37 on: April 26, 2021, 10:07:24 AM »
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan.
What should it be for Neapolitan?
Lose = Be careful not to lose that.
Loose = The bolts are loose.
There = He is there now.
Their = They have their things.
They're = They're going to the mall.
To = They came to the house.
Too = That's too bad.
Two = 2.
Your = Your dinner is ready.
You're = I hope you're kidding.
Than vs. Then = If you score more points than the other team, then you will win the game.
Principal vs. Principle = The high school Principal is a man of principles.
Itís vs its = Itís beautiful in its own way.

Offline jsaras

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #38 on: April 26, 2021, 10:19:42 AM »
What should it be for Neapolitan?

I donít know this to be definitive, but Caputo Blue is 11.5% protein.  The Italians give more detail on their flours.  They include ďWĒ value and elasticity (P/L), which speak to how long of a fermentation time the flour can be used.  This is above my pay grade, but you may find this interesting: http://www.theartisan.net/flour_criteria_judging.htm
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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #39 on: April 26, 2021, 12:12:15 PM »
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan.

Well that sucks because the flour with 10% protein is Bread Flour and the flour with 13% protein is All purpose lour... despite this - should I use bread flour anyway?

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