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Author Topic: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.  (Read 1133 times)

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Offline Papa T

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NY style pizza. A single 12 inch one. Slices have a flop. Pie has a decent browned bottom. Nice crunch as you bite from past the center to the cornice. No kneading. Not much of anything work wise, but letting the yeast do it all, and giving it some time for the yeast to knead the dough for me. At room temperature. Iím not going to get that bit of extra flavor hit that you can get with a cold ferment in the fridge for 24-48 hours, but Iím also not an artisan pizza maker. I like to make pizza that folks really enjoy, and that I can produce from scratch to out of the oven in 6-8 hours. Even in around 4 hours if I use more yeast, and a water temp at 115-120F. The dough recipe I used and technique is toward the end of this diatribe.

Some folks really get into the science of pizza baking, measuring things like yeast and salt to the hundredth of a gram. My grandma never did that, and everyone loved her pizza, bread, and baking in general. She was born in 1911 and passed away in the mid 80s. She was definitely old school. She also basically raised me until I was six years old. I will always remember the saltines, butter, while we watched soap operas in the afternoon. While she crocheted a quilt with hieroglyphics on it at the same time, and never missed a stitch. Anyway, there are times when we make things more complicated than they need to be for what itís intended for, and for me, pizza dough was one of them. Less is more. Simple is better, in my case. This pizza dough makes people happy and go wow, itís like in NY. If I had an oven big enough for an 18 inch pie, it would be as close as I could get at home to any slice youíd get at the walkup window in NY for a buck or two. I have eaten NY "street" pizza in NY many times and this is pie is on point with many of them. It's just smaller.

This pizza had about 4 ounces of sauce and about 6 ounces of low moisture park skim mozzarella. Use what you like in taste and quantity. Nothing special here this time for sauce and cheese. I topped it with some diced green peppers, mushrooms, and about 4 ounces of lightly rendered Italian sausage that would finished cooking in the oven. All the toppings were things I needed to use up, or toss tomorrow.

I baked the pie in a 500F oven, preheated for one hour on a cordierite baking stone on the bottom rack. I baked it for 11 minutes as the veggies add a lot of moisture and steam, and I also like my pies more well done. For a more doughy bite, perhaps 9 minutes or so, but if using veggies, Iíd recommend using paper towels to press some of the moisture out of them, then dry them more in the fridge on paper towels for several hours to overnight. Your pizza will thank you. I didnít do that here other than pressing some moisture out of them on paper towels, so the center of the pizza was a bit wetter than I prefer, but it still held up.

The dough recipe below is for a 245 gram (8.64 oz) ball for a 12 inch pizza, which is the width of my peel. Thickness factor used was about .076 for a 113 sq/in pie. Very thin at the center, getting thicker toward the cornice when opened.

142 g KABF (12.7% protein, modified to about 15%, see below) - 100%
89 g water, filtered, room temp, was about 77F - 62.7%
2.84 g salt, about 1/3 tsp of table salt - 2%
2.84 g sugar, about 2/3 tsp of table sugar - 2%
1.42 g IDY (I use SAF Red), about 1/2 tsp - 1%
7.1 g, EVOO Ė 5%

If you want to scale this recipe for a larger or smaller pan, different thickness factor, or a batch of dough, figure out the dough weight needed, then multiply that by .58. That will give you the flour weight required, and then you can use the percentages shown above for the water and other ingredients to calculate those. So, for a 16 inch pizza with a .075 tf, that would need a 428 gram dough ball. Multiply that 428 by .58, and youíd need 248 grams of flour. Then .627 times the flour weight for the water, which would be 155 grams water, on down the list, etc.

I wanted to use a higher protein flour for this style of pizza, so I used 15 grams less KABF which is 12.7% protein, and added back 15 grams of Anthonyís vital wheat gluten to the mix, which is 76.6% protein to get total 142 grams of high protein flour. Swapping a bit of the KABF with the VWG, brings the total protein content of the 142 grams of flour here to about 15.9%, and it makes a noticeable difference on the bake and bite of the crust. I also find it easier than having to order All Trumps or similar and keeping it in storage. I use VWG for other things, so adding some to bread or pizza doughs allows me a higher protein content flour when needed, without needing to keep it in storage. Again, I didnít knead this dough or use a stand mixer. I let the yeast do the work of making gluten stands over several hours as it was rising, only doing a stretch and pull of the dough between the rising stages, explained below.

While there will always be a need to knead (no puns here), and cold, long ferment dough for certain kinds of breads, I have come to a point to where the less manual labor and cleaning I need to do, with the ability to make pizza dough fairly quickly that is quite pleasing and tasty, the better it is for me. My friends like it too. Or maybe they just like free pizza. Nah, they bring beer. Good trade. I use this no-knead method now for all my NY, Detroit, and South Shore/bar/pub style pizzas. Different recipes, but same process. Iíve had no complaints. Itís so much better than anything you can have delivered, and it doesnít take a lot of effort or time to prep and bake.

I havenít cold fermented pizza dough good while, and Iíve made about 30 pizzas of different styles in the past six months. My friends canít tell the difference between the short RT and long CF dough treatment, nor are they looking for it. They just like pizza and are not critics. They always ask if Iím going to make pizza when they come over so I believe that they do like it. I know Iím biased, but I also think my pizzas taste really good, and land in the style intended.

When you add sauce, cheese, and especially flavor-impact toppings like pepperoni, sausage, onions, garlic, anchovies, jalapenos, etc., itís difficult to sense the nuance of dough that has room temp risen for a few hours, vs a 24-72 hour slow and cold ferment in the fridge. This shorter, room temperature, no-knead method has worked well for me, and Iím not getting any complaints.

Making the dough it really simple. I add all the dry ingredients to the bowl, and stir it a few times to combine everything. I add the oil to the room temp filtered water and give it a vigorous stir with a fork to make the oil droplets smaller, and then immediately pour it into the dry ingredients. I then fold and stir the dough mixture with a silicon spatula for 3-4 minutes until everything is well combined and there is not any particulate matter in the bowl or obvious streaks in the dough mixture. Everything looks well combined and evenly distributed. I then let that rise room temp covered with plastic wrap until it about doubles. I donít oil the bowl. This first rising takes 2-4 hours, depending on the kitchen temp. Itís not critical. Iíve left it for 6 hours at times without issue. It will be fine. This is the first rise.

After the first rise, I stretch and fold the dough 4 or 5 times while turning the bowl about 90 degrees each time. I then cover it back with the plastic wrap, and let it rise until doubled again. That takes 2-4 hours, but again, itís not critical, and it will be fine. It will sit and wait. I've let this dough sit covered on the counter for 18 hours when I got pulled away, and it still came out fine. Since this is a room temp rise, I wouldnít leave it on the counter for a day or two, but 12-15 hours of it sitting around before going into the oven is fine. Been there. For these first two rises, itís basically a bulk ferment, even though here I only made a single dough ball. Make a batch for several dough balls and it's truly a bulk ferment. I've also made a few too many balls and just put them in a sealed container in the fridge on the bottom shelf, then take them out 2-3 hours before wanting to use them and the pizza comes out fine.They will keep for several days in the fridge.

Once the second rise has happened and youíre ready to deal with the dough, itís time to make the dough balls to rise one more time at room temp. Knock the gas out of it, and if you made a batch of dough for multiple balls, now is the time to cut the balls to size. Iíve used separate smaller bowls with lids to rise the balls, but Iíve also just left the balls I made on the counter and covered them with a bowl so they donít dry out. I donít oil the bowls. The dough will be fine.

After portioning the dough into proper weights, work it into a dough ball that is smooth and tight. I do this on a counter top that is lightly dusted with flour and/or semolina. I let the balls rise, covered some way, at room temp until they about double again. They wonít quite double, but they will get close. In my kitchen, this last rise takes 60-90 minutes, depending on the room temp. I also preheat my oven to 500F, stone on the bottom rack, here at the balling stage. Once the dough is ready, I open it as much as possible on the counter with a bit more flour/semolina dusted, and then stretch it with my knuckles at the edge when it wonít press out anymore. If the dough is being stubborn, I lay it down and let it relax about 10 minutes, and then it stretches fine. Sometimes gluten has an attitude.

Once the dough is about the right size, I put the dough on the peel that has also been dusted with flour/semolina. I then top it and slide it into the oven. Baking time for me, depending on toppings used, it 8-12 minutes. The one pictured baked for 11 minutes. A cheese only pizza bakes pretty quick. I check the pizza at the 5 minute baking mark to check for bubbles, and to rotate it 180 degrees. I check the bottom for doneness after 8 or 9 minutes, and check it about every minute thereafter until itís where I want it. I then pull it and let it cool on a rack for 3-5 minutes before cutting.

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Isolating a year from C-19 made me a better baker. Unfortunately, it did nothing for my typos, LOL.

Online 9slicePie

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2021, 10:04:07 AM »
I like the "as few steps as possible to achieve comparable results" approach you have.

I particularly like the 2nd paragraph as well as the following lines, "I have come to a point to where the less manual labor and cleaning I need to do, with the ability to make pizza dough fairly quickly that is quite pleasing and tasty, the better it is for me." and "My friends canít tell the difference between the short RT and long CF dough treatment, nor are they looking for it. They just like pizza and are not critics."

Looking good.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 10:08:49 AM by 9slicePie »

Offline NYSS

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2021, 01:31:18 AM »
I am loving your style, man. And your pizzas look great!

Offline Papa T

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2021, 05:30:54 AM »
I appreciate. When I can take the time to make dough the long way, I do, but most often I need pizza sooner rather than later. Whether that's for me or friends when we get together on short notice, I wanted to make a doughs that keep with the spirit of the dough style in texture, though not necessarily with all the high-end notes that come from fermenting dough made traditionally.

For me, once you put sauce, cheese, and toppings on, the subtleties of traditionally made dough can get muted or lost. If the texture of the baked dough can land as intended, then the initial bite lands on point. After a few bites, the many of nuances of traditionally made dough are lost, especially after I burn my mouth, LOL. For me, it's the dough texture that ranks higher on the list than the nuances of flavor from the fermentation. With that mantra, I've concentrated on three styles for fast turnaround: NY/American, Detroit, and South Shore. There's only so much one can do with a home oven. Those three styles are totally doable once you get the temp, rack placement, and baking stone equation triangle figured out. It's different for everyone's oven, and one must make a several test pies to figure it out. Then it's party time.

I don't believe I'll get into the Neapolitan style since I don't intend to buy the type of oven necessary. I like Neapolitan occasionally, so when I want one, I go to a restaurant that specializes in them and eat there. That's a less expensive solution to an oven I wouldn't use that often. If I were going to buy a pizza oven, I'd just buy another ordinary and basic kitchen stove, and a cordierite stone for it. That would cost less than many of the gas, wood, or coal fired home Neapolitan ovens on the market, and would double my output. Then I could have some serious party times at my place, a.k.a., Papa T's Pub & Pizza Castle, LMAO!

Life is short, and good friends, good food, good pizza, and good drinks make for good times.

I am loving your style, man. And your pizzas look great!
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Isolating a year from C-19 made me a better baker. Unfortunately, it did nothing for my typos, LOL.

Online 9slicePie

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2021, 03:42:37 PM »
For me, once you put sauce, cheese, and toppings on, the subtleties of traditionally made dough can get muted or lost.
Sooooo trueeee.

Quote from:
For me, it's the dough texture that ranks higher on the list than the nuances of flavor from the fermentation.
I agree.

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Offline rbc3

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2021, 01:11:49 AM »
This is a great post. I'm also looking for alternative ways to increase protein content using KABF as a base flour. Since my wife bakes all our bread at home, we already keep around King Arthur Organic Bread Flour, Organic All Purpose Flour, and White Whole Wheat Flour. All are easy to get at our local grocery store. To get King Arthur High Gluten Flour for my pizza dough means I have to special order it. Since it's also easy for me to get Anthony's Premium Vital Wheat Gluten locally, blending to get the desired protein content is more convenient.

I'm curious about your blending math. By my calculation, you're getting more like 19.45% protein with 127 g KABF and 15 g APVWG.

((127*.127)+(15*.766))/142=.1945

What formula did you use to calculate your protein content in the blend?

-Robert
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 02:32:03 AM by rbc3 »

Offline Papa T

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2021, 06:36:08 AM »
Formula to calculate how much VWG to supplement for a given base flour to increase the protein to a certain level:
((TP-BP / VP-BP))*FL

Where:

TP is the target protein level
BP is the protein of the base flour
VP is the protein of the VWG
FL is the weight of the flour needed.

So,

((.145 - .127) / (.76 - .127))*142

gives me

4.038g VWG flour to be added. Then subtracting 4.038 from 142g of flour needed, gives me 137.962g of KABF. Adding the two together gives me a total of 142g of stronger flour.

If you take the 4.038g of VWG * .76, you get 3.069g of protein in those 4.038g.

If you take the .127 protein in KABF and multiply by 137.962, you get 17.521 grams of protein in that 137.962g.

Add 3.069 and 17.521 and you get 20.59 grams of protein in the 142 grams of improved flour. Dividing 20.59 by 142 you get .145 or 14.5% protein content of the improved flour.

I have all this calculating stuff in a spreadsheet I made, so it does all the work. I just enter the variable listed above and it calculates everything for me. I said about 15% because we never get that precise enough to land it perfectly. I aim for the middle in my calculations, hence using 14.5% for my calculations, so that it will land some where in the 14 to 15% range.

NOTE: I stated in my original post that I removed 15g of KABF and added 15g of VWG. Those were incorrect. I had 15 stuck in my head since I was using 15%. It should have been that I removed about 4g of KABF and added about 4g of VWG. It was a typo, which I do a lot as I tend to be wordy, LOL.

Tim

This is a great post. I'm also looking for alternative ways to increase protein content using KABF as a base flour. Since my wife bakes all our bread at home, we already keep around King Arthur Organic Bread Flour, Organic All Purpose Flour, and White Whole Wheat Flour. All are easy to get at our local grocery store. To get King Arthur High Gluten Flour for my pizza dough means I have to special order it. Since it's also easy for me to get Anthony's Premium Vital Wheat Gluten locally, blending to get the desired protein content is more convenient.

I'm curious about your blending math. By my calculation, you're getting more like 19.45% protein with 127 g KABF and 15 g APVWG.

((127*.127)+(15*.766))/142=.1945

What formula did you use to calculate your protein content in the blend?

-Robert
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 06:29:18 PM by Pete-zza »
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Isolating a year from C-19 made me a better baker. Unfortunately, it did nothing for my typos, LOL.

Offline HansB

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2021, 08:20:13 AM »
One of the best slices I've had in NYC was made with Sir Galahad (KAAP), 11.7% protein.
Instagram @hans_michigan

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2021, 11:21:56 AM »
Several years ago, one of our members, November, came up with a tool that he called the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator. That tool, which I have used many times over the years, can be used to calculate protein values of different combinations of flours, and also blends of flours and several retail brands of vital wheat gluten (VWG). The tool is shown on the right hand side of the page at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm

More recently, another member, Anton, came up with a chart version of November's work but limited to the use of VWG with flours, at Reply 33:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245 (click to enlarge)

It will be noted that Anton mentioned the old divide by 0.6 rule. That is the method that Tom Lehmann followed to combine VWG with flours. A typical post on this subject by Tom can be seen at Reply 28 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46015.msg531882;topicseen#msg531882

Peter


Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2021, 11:16:43 PM »
I appreciate. When I can take the time to make dough the long way, I do, but most often I need pizza sooner rather than later. Whether that's for me or friends when we get together on short notice, I wanted to make a doughs that keep with the spirit of the dough style in texture, though not necessarily with all the high-end notes that come from fermenting dough made traditionally.

you may want to look at craig's ny thread, dough ready in about five hours, magazine worthy results:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39200.0

Not sure what craig uses now, this is my variation on his theme:
100% kabf or kaap
63% water
2% oil
2% salt
1% sugar
1% ldmp
.2% yeast

ready in five hours rt.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 10:15:19 AM by quietdesperation »
jeff

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Offline HansB

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2021, 08:03:33 AM »
you may want to look at craig's ny thread, dough ready in about five hours, magazine worthy results:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39200.0

Not sure what craig uses now, this is my variation on his theme:
100% kabf or kaap
63% water
2% oil
2% salt
1% sugar
1% ldmp

ready in five hours rt.

It won't ever be ready without yeast!  :P
Instagram @hans_michigan

Offline jkb

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2021, 09:36:41 AM »
It won't ever be ready without yeast!  :P

I learned that one the hard way.
John

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2021, 10:16:35 AM »
It won't ever be ready without yeast!  :P

craig is so good, he doesnít need yeast! (good catch!)
jeff

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2021, 11:23:45 AM »
craig is so good, he doesnít need yeast! (good catch!)
Jeff,

Who needs yeast ;D? Several years ago, member widespreadpizza (Marc) and I both made pizzas without using any yeast, neither commercial or sourdough or other starters/ preferments.

I reported on the start of my dough at Reply 66 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78707#msg78707 but later provided the details at Replies 84/85 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78779#msg78779

We later learned what appeared to be the explanation for the results we got. See Reply 25 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35873.msg363650#msg363650

Peter

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2021, 11:41:34 AM »
peter, I'm not surprised you didnt't need yeast. As I believe I've said elsewhere, I'm sure you could turn a cardboard box into great pizza. Anyhow, I'd have guessed, as you did, that fermentation occurred via wild yeast in the environment...I also recall posting an article that as bakers, we always have a small amount of yeast on our fingers.

on another topic but apropos to this thread, I've always found it interesting that 90% of my ny pizza making has been with what the forum defines as emergency dough. I have experimented with two to seven fermentation schedules and, as craig said in his thread, I'd put my five hour dough up against those doughs.

best,
jeff

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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2021, 11:53:24 AM »
have been meaning to post the emergency dough thread for OP:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.0

also, papat, you may want to get your hands on some ldmp:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pmak-20

if interested, there was  a long discussion here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.0
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 11:58:17 AM by quietdesperation »
jeff

Offline Papa T

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 09:13:57 AM »
If I were using a flour like Caputo Tipo 00 for making pizza dough, I'd likely use a smidge of DMP, since it is 100% flour. Same for any other brand of flour that was 100% wheat that would benefit from the addition of DMP to aid in browning and also give the yeast some additional nutrition.

Normally though, I use either KABF or KAAP for making pizza dough, both of which have malted barley flour in them as part of the flour blend, so I haven't found the need to add DMP. I'm satisfied with the browning and dough fermentation that both KA flours provide when making and baking pizza.

Regarding the emergency dough thread, I've read it a few times and is a good resource for forum readers that find themselves in one of those short notice pizza dough situations. Highly recommended. Pete even added my emergency NY pizza dough to his OP in the NY Style section, and my emergency grandma pizza dough recipe to the General section.

have been meaning to post the emergency dough thread for OP:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.0

also, papat, you may want to get your hands on some ldmp:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pmak-20

if interested, there was  a long discussion here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.0
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Isolating a year from C-19 made me a better baker. Unfortunately, it did nothing for my typos, LOL.

Offline rbc3

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2021, 03:28:07 PM »
Thanks Papa T! With one small correction on your formula, yours and mine are the same. Yours should be ((TP-BP / VP-BP))*FL to calculate the amount of Vita Wheat Gluten flour with the base flour.

-Robert
« Last Edit: July 16, 2021, 07:03:53 PM by rbc3 »

Offline Papa T

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Re: NY style pizza. No knead, RT rise and ferment. Done in 8 hours.
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2021, 03:53:33 PM »
You are correct. Darn typos. The / is right next to the * on my keypad, and I cannot change the post or replies now. Hopefully, if anyone tried to use that formula as in the OP, they will say that I'm nuts, which is correct, but not in that way. Perhaps Pete-zza can change the / to a * to my posts in this thread.

Thanks.

Thanks Papa T! With one small correction on your formula, yours and mine are the same. Yours should be ((TP-BP / VP-BP))*FL to calculate the amount of Vita When Gluten flour with the base flour.

-Robert
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Isolating a year from C-19 made me a better baker. Unfortunately, it did nothing for my typos, LOL.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T