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Author Topic: It's thin, crispy, tender....same techniques as a cracker, but made for the home  (Read 2327 times)

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Offline fazzari

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Another attempt at making this pizza as easy as I can for the home baker.

flour    100
water     50
salt         2.5
sugar      2
oil           4
yeast       .75

I've upped the hydration from 34% (restaurant setting) to 50%.  This eases the lamination immensely.  I've also changed the procedure for mixing the dough, the main change is using hot tap water.

For this experiment, I am making a 24 ounce piece of dough.  This day, my tap water is 153 degrees.  I add 7.5 ounces of 153 degree water to my KA bowl, and then add 15.1 ounces of flour, .4 ounces of salt,
.3 ounces of sugar, .6 ounces of oil (I add the oil now as this dough won't mix long enough to incorporate the oil if added later).  I turn on the mixer for about 30 seconds to gather the ingredients, and then add .10 ounce of yeast to the dough (this way the yeast won't get too hot).

This dough mixed 2 minutes 25 seconds on speed 1.  (Picture below)   Mixing is all done

Divided the doughs into 4 six ounce dough balls, rounded and placed in a freezer bag (the dough was 95 degrees).  Let the dough set at room temperature for 45 minutes.
After 45 minutes, I sheeted each of the dough balls into a very thin disk (very, very easy at this hydration and temperature).  This took all of 60 seconds.

I then stacked the 4 sheets on top of each other and rolled a nice thin sheet.  Again this is simple at this hydration.

I then cut out 4 skins, stack them between parchment, place in a freezer bag and place in freezer

John



Offline fazzari

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The first pizza attempt was made from a skin which was in the freezer for 1 hour and then placed in the fridge for 21 hours prior to bake.  Baked in 550 degree oven (home) on unglazed quarry tiles.  Took about 5 minutes.  Honestly, this pizza is as good as any cracker I've had in any restaurant.

To be clear, I like to place my skins in the freezer....it stops the yeast action, which is what I want.  The skins can stay frozen...just take them out 24 to 48 hours before baking and place in your fridge.

John
« Last Edit: April 27, 2021, 04:51:57 PM by fazzari »

Offline scott r

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So cool, your awesome.  I cant wait to try!

Offline fazzari

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You get great eats too  Scott

john

Offline texmex

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I never seem to have freezer space conducive to holding a formed skin.   :-X
I don't like the way that sentence reads, but it's creepily funny to me after I read it.


Since I have been making pastry dough lately, I find a struggle with frozen storage of rolled out dough,  but I will find room in my freezer, perhaps for a smaller diameter pie. Might as well make a short stack cracker batch.


John, I am going to try this today.  :chef:





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Offline Pete-zza

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John,

What you did was very clever, especially using water at 153F, which is quite a bit above the temperature that kills yeast (a bit over 140F). That trick reminded me of how you helped me make cracker style doughs that were much easier to roll out when the doughs were warm. You might remember the post where I expressed my gratitude for your tip, and where I dedicated that post to you ;D, at Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49138#msg49138

Peter

Offline texmex

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Hot water is the norm for making flour tortillas, so it makes sense here for that pliable dough factor.


I just created my formula for this cracker, and I realized, the pics show smaller rectangle pizzas. excellent.
I will mix later, and freeze for bake tomorrow.
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Offline fazzari

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I never seem to have freezer space conducive to holding a formed skin.   :-X
I don't like the way that sentence reads, but it's creepily funny to me after I read it.


Since I have been making pastry dough lately, I find a struggle with frozen storage of rolled out dough,  but I will find room in my freezer, perhaps for a smaller diameter pie. Might as well make a short stack cracker batch.


John, I am going to try this today.  :chef:

Can't wait to see!!!

John

Offline fazzari

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John,

What you did was very clever, especially using water at 153F, which is quite a bit above the temperature that kills yeast (a bit over 140F). That trick reminded me of how you helped me make cracker style doughs that were much easier to roll out when the doughs were warm. You might remember the post where I expressed my gratitude for your tip, and where I dedicated that post to you ;D, at Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49138#msg49138

Peter
OOhh, I was a much younger man then Peter.  Even us old guys can come up with new tricks though.

JOhn

Offline fazzari

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Second pizza from this experiment.  This skin was taken out of the freezer 26 hours prior to bake and put in the fridge.  Just a reminder that these skins should go straight from fridge to oven... don't let them warm up.  This one took about 5.5 minutes to bake, didn't get quite as brown on the bottom, but was excellent eating just the same

John


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Offline texmex

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 ;D Um...WOW!



Mixing later =  this morning.

I got sidetracked when a batch of tomatoes and peppers showed up for my dehydrator.


The dough balls (they don't appear quite as cohesive as shown in John's pics, especially in ball form, but the flour is all incorporated) currently on 45 minute rest before the lamination begins.


edited to add....I will keep adding progress pics to this post as well as my recipe workflow. Wasn't keen on the ashy kneecaps, so I dropped some oil in some water, and carressed the ash away with a tiny but of moisturizer as the dough was rolled out. I am sure it helped, if not, it made me feel better.   My hydration must be off, and the day is cold, so my dough cooled off to 91 before I scaled it. I struggled to roll these out, but got the 64 ounce of layers to about 15 inch round. It shrank back about an inch before the splitting into 4 skins, but I rolled those final 4 a bit thinner before freezing..



The formula was: 440 grams of AP flour, 220 grams of hot water 153° F., 11 g salt, 9 g sugar, 18 g olive oil, 3 g yeast.  I did nothing different except for the small bit of oily water rubbed on while rolling to eliminate dry spots mostly along the outer edges.


Plus bonus dough: Sourdough formula... 440 grams of AP flour, 100g of starter (100% hydration), 220 g hot water, 11g salt, 9 g sugar, 10g oil, small pinch of yeast, and a few small drips of additional water to get the flour off the bottom of the mixer bowl. This dough is easily manageable and supple, but it has a nice puffiness from the sd which hadn't quite peaked in the fridge after the last feeding it got a week ago.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 08:56:46 PM by texmex »
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Offline Mad_Ernie

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Mixing later = 5 minutes ago.

I got sidetracked when a batch of tomatoes and peppers showed up for my dehydrator.


The dough balls (they don't appear quite as cohesive as shown in John's pics, especially in ball form, but the flour is all incorporated) currently on 45 minute rest before the lamination begins.


edited to add....I will keep adding progress pics to this post as well as my recipe workflow. Wasn't keen on the ashy kneecaps, so I dropped some oil in some water, and carressed the ash away with a tiny but of moisturizer as the dough was rolled out. I am sure it helped, if not, it made me feel better.   My hydration must be off, and the day is cold, so my dough cooled off to 91 before I scaled it. I struggled to roll these out, but got the 64 ounce of layers to about 15 inch round. It shrank back about an inch before the splitting into 4 skins, but I rolled those final 4 a bit thinner before freezing..

Texmex,

I have enjoyed following your progress.  Your use of 50% hydration and 3 layer laminated technique reminds me of the Round Table pizza dough recipe that was developed over many months of trial and error, mostly by Lydia.  You might want to read through that thread on the American Style forum (36 pages worth) and see if you find any useful tidbits.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1911.msg659136#msg659136

Peace and pizza,

ME
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Offline texmex

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Texmex,

I have enjoyed following your progress.  Your use of 50% hydration and 3 layer laminated technique reminds me of the Round Table pizza dough recipe that was developed over many months of trial and error, mostly by Lydia.  You might want to read through that thread on the American Style forum (36 pages worth) and see if you find any useful tidbits.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1911.msg659136#msg659136

Peace and pizza,

ME
Hey, Mad Ernie.. thanks, and this is John Fazzari's process I am trying here. Thank you for the link to american style. I am definitely going to read it, and see what's what.  I don't know if you have seen my first attempt at laminated dough, when I really had no idea what it was, but it was fun experimenting. I had already been using John's long reballed cold ferments for a lovely crispy, puffed result in my home oven, and had a few of those doughs leftover, so I started trying to make a very thin crust out of them, instead of making a new dough.  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40534.msg404112#msg404112


Then I found out that Fazzari has been working this cracker style all kinds of ways since the beginning of time. When I saw his latest post about thin tender crust, I had to revisit. I have been craving that crisp, tender thin crust.


 I have not been making pizza much lately, but hubby will be pleased this afternoon.  I decided that I wanted a bit more supple dough that hopefully won't be so difficult to roll out, so I made a 2nd batch just now using sourdough (it upped the total hydration a bit) and a small pinch of yeast, then made sure to add drops of water to get a nicer feeling dough. That SD one is currently on a 45 minute rest. I will just keep the skins in freezer and see how it pans out after a few days on this new dough. 


I will post additional pics etc. to the previous post after the bake.

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Offline texmex

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Me: "How is it?" 
Him: "Crunchy. Oh wow, it has so much sauce the way I like it. This is so good!"


 ;D


I made the sauce out of dried tomatoes, dried roasted red pepper, a small can of tomato sauce, clove of garlic, balsamic vinegar, olive oil, water, oregano, basil, salt, pepper, onion powder. blended into a thick paste.


The bakes for dough one using All Purpose flour started at 550, 5.5 minutes... but the 2nd pie was very dark on bottom, while the toppings were not melding properly, so I put that 2nd one in the broiler for less than a minute and turned the heat down to 500.  (my stone is really dark) and I probably should have used the top stone as well for top heat (like the good old days).  I baked the last 2 at 500 for 5 minutes and still used the broiler to get the toppings just right.


I do not enjoy rolling this dough. AT ALL. Even using sd with the added hydration in the next batch, still had to add a bit more water to incorporate everything better and make the dough a bit softer without overmixing.  The higher hydration gave this 2nd dough a very similar tortilla/pita dough texture and was much easier to manage.
My sourdough skins are still in the freezer, for a bake this weekend.


Here's some other pics: Most are of the 1st pie to go in the oven, the final 2 pics are the softer sd.


Damn good pizza, John.







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Offline fazzari

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Very nice Reesa, oven spring looks great.  Hope you enjoy them.

John

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Offline texmex

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Very nice Reesa, oven spring looks great.  Hope you enjoy them.

John


Absolutely.  You and Mad Ernie (yep, I read the RoundTable thread) got me thinking about this lamination process again.  I made a new 3 fold higher hydration just about 30 minutes ago with a gob of bacon fat in there.  I am going to work on this dough leaving off on my previous experiments from years ago.  Had been thinking about that dough for months, but I have been cooking too many other time consuming dishes since this covid thing. Pizza has not been prominent.  I love having frozen doughs ready to bake in short time though..so, onward I will go.


Thanks for all the details. Y'all are amazing.
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Offline fazzari

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I still have a couple of skins to bake in the freezer, but I was anxious to seriously make a real sized pizza joint pie.

So using the same recipe to make another 24 ounce dough.  This time I put all the ingredients in the bowl (except yeast), and used the dough hook in my hand to pull the dough together.  I then added the yeast and mixed 1 minute 40 seconds.  It was done.  Again portioned the dough into 4 pieces and let rise for 15 minutes.  This time I sheeted 4 very thin rectangles with thoughts of a final sheet making at least a 14 inch skin.  This is so simple to do...but then again, I'm a pretty strong 220 pound guy.

Sheeted out a sheet big enough for a 14 inch skin, cut out the skin and weighed.  It was a hair thick, so I sheeted further to thin it out...cut out the 14 inch skin.  Dough weight exactly 15 ounces, making a thickness factor of .10.  Placed the skin in the freezer for 1 hour, and then placed in the fridge for 23 hours

In one of the pictures below, I am trying to show the texture of the very thin crust.  What I see, are millions of pin holes (maybe not millions, but lots).  I don't see laminations and that's the way I believe it should be.  The lamination is a means to an end...not the end itself.

One other important point.... one of the huge disadvantages of baking at home, is that one only gets one chance to reach perfection with each skin.  The pizza shown below could have used a little more heat, which I could have added had I known.  The goal is: always have the top and bottom done at the same time

John

Offline DNA Dan

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Fantastic to see you gents still experimenting with this style! It's been a while..... you can take the man away from the pizza, but you can't take the pizza away from the man! I can't believe how much the world has changed over the past few years. Hope you all weathered the storm okay and have good fortunes around the corner.

Offline fazzari

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Here's my last skin from the original batch.  17 or 18 days in the freezer.  Placed in the fridge 21 hours prior to bake.  Not exciting as far as toppings...all I had was some mozzarella, parmesan, egg, and few slices of pepperoni.  Great breakfast pizza!!!

John

Offline Monkeyboy

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Followed this recipe pretty closely (except for water temp).  Made a 230g dough ball as a tester.  1/2 Caputo chefs flour, 1/2 bread flour.
I actually used my Atlas pasta roller to sheet the dough.  Went to setting '6'.  stacked them, then used a rolling pin to shape into a rectangle.  Trimmed the edges and made 2 rectangles - froze for an hour, then fridge.  Baked 24 hours later.  Steel on lowest rack 550.
I really thought it would end up less crispy / cracker-like than it did.  Was super easy to make in advance and bake...really good technique.  Will make again.  Was noms.

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