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Author Topic: Did the New York Recipe ever get updated? " ...working on a much better version"  (Read 1173 times)

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Offline Numerator

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In the pizza recipes, under New York:


Quote from: unknown link=https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-recipes.html
New York Style Pizza Recipe
A very basic New York style pizza recipe. We're working on a much better version, so check back often. Rated: Good.


« Last Edit: June 21, 2021, 01:06:46 PM by Numerator »
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Offline 02ebz06

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I seriously doubt you will ever find one perfect recipe.
How you make a pizza (ingredients, procedure, altitude, humidity, etc.) will be different from someone else.
I started with the Tom Lehmann basic NY Style and made a couple tweaks to get what works for me.

Pick one and work with it...
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Offline Pete-zza

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Numerator,

The recipe you cited is the one given at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

For the record, I would place that recipe back to the early days of the forum, perhaps around 2003 or early 2004. And, to answer the question you posed, it was not improved. Rather, what happened was the emergence in around 2004 of a true NY style dough recipe that the late Tom Lehmann proposed. Steve, the owner of the forum, sought Tom's permission to post his recipe on the forum, which Tom granted. That recipe is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=stats

I should note that at the time Tom also had a NY style dough recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank. In fact, it is still there:

https://www.pmq.com/recipe-bank/new-york-style-pizza-dough/

As an aside, you will not that the instructions for both of Tom's recipes call for sugar but sugar is not listed as an ingredient. That was an error. However, Tom often advocated using around 2% sugar when the dough is to be cold fermented for more than about two days.

Since Tom's recipe as posted on this forum was intended for use by professionals, Steve asked for volunteers to try to adapt the recipe for a home setting. I had followed Tom's work at the PMQ Think Tank for some time before becoming a member of the forum so I volunteered. That led to the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg5303#msg5303

That thread now has 945,407 views. That places the thread in fourth place in terms of views, as noted at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=stats.

Even though I was a novice home pizza maker at the time, and even though I had never had a NY slice, I didn't let that stop me from doing just about everything I could think with Tom's recipe. And I eventually came up with a roadmap of all of my experiments. That Roadmap is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1453.msg13193#msg13193

One of the things you will notice in the Roadmap is that I often used a hydration of around 63%. The reason was the high-gluten flour called for in Tom's recipes. Tom called for as little as 58%. I believe the reason for such a low hydration value was due to the fact that many professionals who specialize in the NY style often use lower hydration values to make it easier to form dough balls into skins. This can be very important for training purposes and especially if pizza makers are prone to quitting their jobs with great frequency.

To back up a bit, the recipe at https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php had some shortcomings when compared with Tom's recipe. For example, the amount of yeast, at 0.66%, was far more than would have been needed for a 24-hour cold fermentation. Also, the salt, at 0.92%, was on the low side. The instructions also called for the dough passing the windowpane test. As many of our members know, Tom frowned upon the windowpane test, which he associated with bread making rather than pizza making, and instead advocated relatively short knead times and biochemical gluten development. The instructions further called for letting the dough warm up to room temperature before making the dough skin. By contrast, Tom said to let the dough warm up AT room temperature--not to room temperature--with the goal of having the internal temperature reach about 50-55F, although he allowed for warmer temperatures for a home setting.

Now you have the rest of the story ;D.

Peter




Offline Numerator

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Awesome!  Thanks for the great reply.  I really appreciate it.  It would be nice if there was a location that had up-to-date recipes and tools.  It would help new people, like me, a great deal.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Awesome!  Thanks for the great reply.  I really appreciate it.  It would be nice if there was a location that had up-to-date recipes and tools.  It would help new people, like me, a great deal.
Numerator,

It was never intended that the forum be a recipe forum. It is about recipes, of course, but many, if not most, of the recipes on the forum evolve over time and, in many cases, there may be several versions.

However, over the years I have put together collections of some of the more popular and better recipes. You can see examples at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.msg71576#msg71576

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16422.msg160335#msg160335

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30343.msg302531#msg302531

One of the things that you will note from the above compilations is that the most popular recipes in terms of page views is the emergency dough collection. That tells me that we have a lot of members who simply want basic recipes that are easy and quick to make. They also like standalone recipes that are complete, much as one would find in cookbooks. I have tried to do that with most of my recipes, at least the ones that turned out well, but most of the recipes on the forum do not pass that test.

I should further note that there are several stickys devoted to some of the most popular recipes on the forum. So one might check those out. As an example, see the stickys devoted to the cracker style of pizza at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=28.0

As for tools, not long ago I started a thread devoted to that matter, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59104.msg592940#msg592940

The bottom line is that the information is available but that doesn't mean that people will find it useful.

Peter




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Offline Numerator

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Numerator,

It was never intended that the forum be a recipe forum. It is about recipes, of course, but many, if not most, of the recipes on the forum evolve over time and, in many cases, there may be several versions.

However, over the years I have put together collections of some of the more popular and better recipes. You can see examples at:


I understand that this is not a recipe forum, but I think the recipes that do turn out well should be in the "Pizza Recipes" section. https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-recipes.html   Most people would expect that is the place to find approved and validated recipes and not have to look through the forum.

As for tools, I think they should be listed here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-tools.html as well.


« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 10:57:12 PM by Numerator »
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Offline RHawthorne

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I understand that this is not a recipe forum, but I think the recipes that do turn out well should be in the "Pizza Recipes" section. https://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza-recipes.html   Most people would expect that is the place to find approved and validated recipes and not have to look through the forum.

As for tools, I think they should be listed here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-tools.html as well.

Hey, I think I understand what you're saying, but what you might not yet have realized, being a newcomer to this site (and welcome aboard, btw), is that this site is a rabbit hole that goes waaaaaay deep, and the information is pretty free-flowing around here. You will find discussion threads about topics of interest here that have been going on for well over a decade, believe it or not. To adopt an "official/last word" recipe or pronouncement on anything is kind of not really the point. We're all here for the purpose of perfecting our own craft, to gain knowledge each in our own way, by our own efforts and judgments, and then bringing that knowledge gained back here, for the discussion to continue. It's more like a mural than an encyclopedia, if that makes sense. Try to think of it that way.
If we're not questioning the reason for our existence, then what the hell are we doing here?!

Offline Numerator

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Hey, I think I understand what you're saying, but what you might not yet have realized, being a newcomer to this site (and welcome aboard, btw), is that this site is a rabbit hole that goes waaaaaay deep, and the information is pretty free-flowing around here. You will find discussion threads about topics of interest here that have been going on for well over a decade, believe it or not. To adopt an "official/last word" recipe or pronouncement on anything is kind of not really the point. We're all here for the purpose of perfecting our own craft, to gain knowledge each in our own way, by our own efforts and judgments, and then bringing that knowledge gained back here, for the discussion to continue. It's more like a mural than an encyclopedia, if that makes sense. Try to think of it that way.

That is all the more reason to have a repository for easier consumption.  I'm not talking about "official" or "last word" recipes.  There is no such thing, but having a current list of quality recipes is a great resource for people.  One should not have to scour years of posts to try and find recipes or best practices.  There is a "Pizza Recipes" section specifically for that, why not use it?


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Offline RHawthorne

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That is all the more reason to have a repository for easier consumption.  I'm not talking about "official" or "last word" recipes.  There is no such thing, but having a current list of quality recipes is a great resource for people.  One should not have to scour years of posts to try and find recipes or best practices.  There is a "Pizza Recipes" section specifically for that, why not use it?
I guess what I might have made quite clear is that this whole site is one big continuous “best of recipes” list. It’s a constantly evolving thing that never stops. Every day, there’s something posted that continues the discussion. If we start to compile a list of what we might consider the “best” recipes on this site, that would just open another rabbit hole that would never end. That’s what I’m getting at. If you’re suggesting that the editors of this website decide upon the best of the recipes to make official on this website, that’s one thing. That would not be an easy task to say the least, knowing just how many thousands and thousands of posts have been made here through the years about various experimental recipes. And if you think it should be democratically by all the members of this forum, you might as well just say that it will never happen because there are so many of us. I’m not sure how any “best of” recipes section  would even be arrived at. I think the best you can really hope for is for recipe guidelines, which are discussed here quite often.
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Offline Numerator

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I am saying that I trust Peter to choose good recipes and put them in the “Pizza Recipe” section.  Not the “best” or highest rated, but good recipes gleaned from the forum.
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Offline RHawthorne

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I am saying that I trust Peter to choose good recipes and put them in the “Pizza Recipe” section.  Not the “best” or highest rated, but good recipes gleaned from the forum.
OK, fair enough. But again, you have to understand that the administrators of this website have been responsible for overseeing thousands upon thousands of pages of posts for a very long time. And the vast majority of this stuff has been in the way of posts about more generalized topics like hydration, salt content, fermentation regimens, etc., not so much recipes per se.
 Take a good look around this website for yourself and see just how many actual recipes you find. What I think you’ll see is that what is mostly discussed here is components of recipes and the pizza making process, not so much finished recipes. There are numerous discussion threads here that focus on ‘cloning’ pizzas from certain pizzerias. In those threads, you’ll see that there are really more questions posted than answers, I think. Like I said, it’s more of an ongoing discussion that it is anything else. And ultimately, if you really want to nail this pizza thing down, the best thing to do is to collect general information and then formulate your own recipe ideas and put them to the test. Finding some perfected recipe that somebody else put out there is nice, and it can happen sometimes, but perfecting your own recipes is really what this website is all about. I don’t know what else to say.
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Offline Numerator

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Quote
OK, fair enough. But again, you have to understand that the administrators of this website have been responsible for overseeing thousands upon thousands of pages of posts for a very long time. And the vast majority of this stuff has been in the way of posts about more generalized topics like hydration, salt content, fermentation regimens, etc., not so much recipes per se.
 Take a good look around this website for yourself and see just how many actual recipes you find. What I think you’ll see is that what is mostly discussed here is components of recipes and the pizza making process, not so much finished recipes.

That is not my observation.  There are a lot of recipes here and putting some of the proven ones in the "Pizza Recipes" is reasonable.  Why have the section at all then?

I also think that there should be a section on best practices, too, for people learning.

I think you are referring to experts refining their techniques, so a discussion on nuances makes sense.  I am referring to giving beginners and non-expert resources to improve where the fundamentals are pretty well established.

Quote
There are numerous discussion threads here that focus on ‘cloning’ pizzas from certain pizzerias. In those threads, you’ll see that there are really more questions posted than answers, I think.

I am not referring to these. That is more suited to discussion.


Quote
Like I said, it’s more of an ongoing discussion that it is anything else. And ultimately, if you really want to nail this pizza thing down, the best thing to do is to collect general information and then formulate your own recipe ideas and put them to the test. Finding some perfected recipe that somebody else put out there is nice, and it can happen sometimes, but perfecting your own recipes is really what this website is all about. I don’t know what else to say.

Again, I am not looking for "perfect" or "best" recipes, but good recipes as a starting point, a place for beginners to start learning without having to navigate the forum.

I think that collecting some of the recipes, tools and techniques can only help.  Especially for people starting out.  Collecting the current tools would help everyone.

I guess I don't see why you wouldn't want that.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 03:10:09 AM by Numerator »
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Offline texmex

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Numerator, there is no reason you can't create a compendium through the deepest of forum dives and then post what you find to be your ideal recipes in the Pizza Recipes section.  Others may follow suit, or find you efforts redeeming.
Here is a site that does something similar to what you are requesting: http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/index.php
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Offline Numerator

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Numerator, there is no reason you can't create a compendium through the deepest of forum dives and then post what you find to be your ideal recipes in the Pizza Recipes section.  Others may follow suit, or find you efforts redeeming.
Here is a site that does something similar to what you are requesting: http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/index.php

Again, I am not talking about "ideal" or "best" or "perfect", just a collection of few basic recipes.  I know there are plenty of recipes on other sites, but I am saying we should have a version like that site that reflects some of the knowledge from this forum and points to forum discussions about them.  We can control the content this way and update as needed.

What is the point of the "Pizza Recipes" section here?  Why have it at all if we don't make a version that fits the forum?

Why is making updating the "Pizza Recipes" section not a good thing?

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 10:58:11 AM by Numerator »
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Offline texmex

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Again, I am not talking about "ideal" or "best" or "perfect", just a collection of few basic recipes.  I know there are plenty of recipes on other sites, but I am saying we should have a version like that site that reflects some of the knowledge from this forum and points to forum discussions about them.  We can control the content this way and update as needed.

What is the point of the "Pizza Recipes" section here?  Why have it at all if we don't make a version that fits the forum?

Why is making updating the "Pizza Recipes" section not a good thing?




Again, there is nothing stopping you from proceeding with your quest. Have at it!
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Offline Pete-zza

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I believe that when Steve created the Recipe section of the forum, which was about 18 years ago, he thought that such a section would be useful. However, as time went on, I believe that he saw that it would be a herculean task to expand and keep such a section up-to-date. And who would volunteer to do all of the work? So, no more recipes were added. But that did not stop me from putting together collections of recipes for members to use and to update those collections from time to time. And nobody asked me to do that. And I made those collections stickys, including one for the Dough Generator. Even what I did, for better or worse, took a lot of work on my part. If someone were to ask me to do as Numerator suggested, I would politely decline, not because his suggestion lacks merit but because the undertaking would be enormous. Also, my adjudication of what are the best recipes would be no better than any other member. It's all rather moot for me in any event because my hands are full as a Moderator.

After almost 17 years on the forum, and as a Moderator for most of that time, I have come to the conclusion that a large percent of the people who join the forum do so in search of recipes, and they also will often admit that they joined to be able to use the search features, most likely for recipes. It should also be noted that over 90 percent of the members who join do not go beyond their introductory posts and maybe two or three posts beyond that if we are lucky. I no longer have a good idea as to the makeup of the audience of this forum. But it is worldwide (members have registered from over 125 countries) and perhaps the best forum of its type anywhere in the world. And it is all for free to the public.

Peter

Offline Numerator

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I am willing to do that. Of course, they would not be the “best” recipes, because I think that is too subjective, just good example that are proven starting points.

It is possible that people only stay for a little while is because there is a steep learning curve finding things.  I think the recipe section would help there.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 12:02:08 PM by Numerator »
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Offline 02ebz06

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Many new members also join just so they can search for ovens and for help with pizza making issues they are having.

If you do pull your idea together Numerator, would having 15 or 20 recipes for NY, or Chicago, or any other style, be any better ?
IMO it would leave a person just as confused.

Now, maybe a section with just a basic recipe for each style in and they would not be able to be modified or any new posts made in the section, so there would be a starting point for each style.
And maybe subsections under it that people could post in:
Here's how I make my NY Style...
Here's How I make my Chicago style...
etc...



But, then, what do I know.


 

« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 12:29:06 PM by 02ebz06 »
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Offline Numerator

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That is a very good question.  I would organise the recipes in two sections. 
1)  Education based.  Each pizza more complicated than previous one

 
  • Simple dough/simple sauce/single day
  • add cold ferment/ball same day
  • add bulk ferment
  • etc

2) Style based, broken down by above list (complexity)
Multiple examples for each complexity level may exist

I would start with this and go from there.
 There are already forums for people posting specific styles and there would be a link for that, but this would not directly accept input, other than voting, perhaps.

People looking for ovens would not be interested in this section.

Sometimes looking at a recipe using the technique you are having trouble with can be helpful.  I would love to be able to look for a recipe similar to mine that is known to work.  I think that would be useful.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 12:55:38 PM by Numerator »
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