Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: jpitkoff on October 27, 2021, 02:24:54 PM

Title: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jpitkoff on October 27, 2021, 02:24:54 PM
I know most people love Mama's Too for the square slices, but I'm a huge fan of their NY-style house (i.e. triangle) slice and would love to find a recipe for it. The crust is crispy and light with a really great, well-developed flavor. Any leads?

(Wouldn't mind a recipe for the square slices too though!)

Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on October 27, 2021, 04:11:50 PM
Its the same dough.   Its a direct dough, no preferments or sourdough, and fairly wet.   At one point in time he was using 100% all trumps, but he is always tweaking and I have heard he is blending two flours now.   Also, at one point there was high oil in the dough, but last time I talked to him he had brought it down to a typical range.   Honestly its all about nailing the fermentation (using the dough at the right time).   He has been very public about saying there is no sugar used in aything in his pizzeria.    Your best bet is just practice practice practice and also to have killer ingredients and a great oven.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jsaras on October 27, 2021, 05:09:51 PM
Its the same dough.   Its a direct dough, no preferments or sourdough, and fairly wet.   At one point in time he was using 100% all trumps, but he is always tweaking and I have heard he is blending two flours now.   Also, at one point there was high oil in the dough, but last time I talked to him he had brought it down to a typical range.   Honestly its all about nailing the fermentation (using the dough at the right time).   He has been very public about saying there is no sugar used in aything in his pizzeria.    Your best bet is just practice practice practice and also to have killer ingredients and a great oven.  Good luck.

 ^^^ ^^^

Start with a basic Lehmann formulation without sugar and tinker around the edges. 
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2021, 07:12:09 PM
Make sure you watch the video below if you haven't already.

https://youtu.be/zZyvn7ajxaI

Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 27, 2021, 08:19:35 PM
Scott, was/is it bromated AT or nah?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 27, 2021, 08:37:20 PM
I think they just got a pizza master oven too.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 27, 2021, 11:01:55 PM
Make sure you watch the video below if you haven't already.

https://youtu.be/zZyvn7ajxaI
I watched this video a few weeks ago, and then I couldn't remember which place it was. At 0:53 in the video, he said the hydration rate for their dough was 74%, which is way high for NY style by my reckoning, but a lot people love it. I would imagine the other ingredients are probably in the usual range; 2%-2.5% salt, 0.2%-0.5% yeast, 1%-3% oil (maybe higher). I can only guess about the fermentation time and temperature, but I would imagine it's not a same day dough. I'm not saying it would be any easy dough to replicate, but given the information we already have on it, you would have at least some idea of the proportions you should be shooting for if you were to give it a try.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 27, 2021, 11:06:06 PM
  He has been very public about saying there is no sugar used in anything in his pizzeria.   
I hope he's saying that there is no added sugar in anything, because there is definitely sugar in AT flour. I've heard others in the business say that same thing before, and it always bugs me when I know what kind of flour they use. Other than straight "00" flour, I would say there's pretty much no such thing as a flour used for pizza dough that doesn't have some form of sugar already in it, whether there's any added or not.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on October 27, 2021, 11:09:07 PM
good point!   I think its safe to say no added sugar.... and he has long bake times at high temps so that makes sense.   I can't remember if it was bromate or not on the all trumps, but I don't think it was and pretty sure there is no bromate now.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 27, 2021, 11:20:25 PM
good point!   I think its safe to say no added sugar.... and he has long bake times at high temps so that makes sense.   I can't remember if it was bromate or not on the all trumps, but I don't think it was and pretty sure there is no bromate now.
I just skimmed through that video again, and at 12:44, he says "I put no sugar in anything I do in this store". I guess that's honest enough, but I still feel like a little clarification about the dough would not go too far amiss. I also found it interesting that he said he uses some carrot in his pizza sauce. I worked at a place about a decade ago (that's now out of business) where they did that, and it was a cooked sauce. I'm guessing his sauce is probably cooked too, because I can't imagine throwing raw carrot into an uncooked sauce. Or maybe he just cooks the carrots and adds them to the sauce (?). Now I'm intrigued.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on October 27, 2021, 11:32:02 PM
I think he has more than one tomato sauce, I don't think they all have carrot, but I could be wrong.  Could it be carrot just in the vodka sauce?   I know that one is cooked.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 27, 2021, 11:38:38 PM
I think he has more than one tomato sauce, I don't think they all have carrot, but I could be wrong.  Could it be carrot just in the vodka sauce?   I know that one is cooked.
Yeah, you're right. I missed that. There was a rough cut in the video, and I didn't realize he was talking about the vodka sauce the first time I watched it. That's very interesting. Now there's another thing I need to try!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jsobolew on October 28, 2021, 02:31:07 AM
Sugar in All Trumps? Not that I've heard of. I've got a bag and there is no sugar listed in the ingredients. Ingredients from the bromated version on the GM website:
BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON, POTASSIUM BROMATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID

Non-bromated:
WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on October 28, 2021, 08:01:39 AM
There is very little sugar in a wheat berry, only about 1%.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on October 28, 2021, 10:42:04 AM
Malted barley = sugar
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 28, 2021, 11:44:04 AM
Malted barley = sugar
Exactly. Maltose is a form of sugar, and it's almost always the second ingredient listed on any kind of flour besides straight "00". The whole reason it's there is to give yeast an energy source to do it's work. I'm not saying it's a large amount, or that it's something people should be overly concerned about in terms of it's healthfulness in this context. I just think that anybody who bakes regularly should be aware of what they're working with, and should be mindful about saying there's "no sugar" in their dough, when that's pretty much never the case when they're using any kind of flour other than straight "00".
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 28, 2021, 01:24:35 PM
If we’re getting technical, isn’t malted barley a source for enzymes that help break starch down into maltose, and not maltose itself? Regardless, I think it’s pretty clear Franco means no added sugar, processed sugar or honey, etc. Especially as he’s saying it in the context of mentioning carrot as an alternative to sugar in sweetening the vodka sauce.

I think they just got a pizza master oven too.

I wouldn’t have seen this coming! My last slices there were baked to perfection in the gas ovens. I wonder if electric ovens will help with their volume. Their gas ovens were Marsals, I think? I’ll be there in a week, excited to have a look!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 28, 2021, 01:35:34 PM
If we’re getting technical, isn’t malted barley a source for enzymes that help break starch down into maltose, and not maltose itself? Regardless, I think it’s pretty clear Franco means no added sugar, processed sugar or honey, etc. Especially as he’s saying it in the context of mentioning carrot as an alternative to sugar in sweetening the vodka sauce.

I wouldn’t have seen this coming! My last slices there were baked to perfection in the gas ovens. I wonder if electric ovens will help with their volume. Their gas ovens were Marsals, I think? I’ll be there in a week, excited to have a look!
Malted barley contains both maltose and enzymes. That's how it makes beer. When you steep crushed malted barley grains in water in a specified temperature range, the enzymes in the grains are activated and what happens is what brewers colloquially call "self conversion", where the maltose is "formed" (for lack of a better term) over time in the mash. I was a homebrewer for many years. I could get much more technical about this stuff if I wanted to, but I don't want to bore you to death.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 28, 2021, 01:48:55 PM
If we’re getting technical, isn’t malted barley a source for enzymes that help break starch down into maltose, and not maltose itself? Regardless, I think it’s pretty clear Franco means no added sugar, processed sugar or honey, etc. Especially as he’s saying it in the context of mentioning carrot as an alternative to sugar in sweetening the vodka sauce.

I wouldn’t have seen this coming! My last slices there were baked to perfection in the gas ovens. I wonder if electric ovens will help with their volume. Their gas ovens were Marsals, I think? I’ll be there in a week, excited to have a look!
They might have added it to the mix. I know I saw a social media post of an oven getting shipped to them. Small place, no idea where they put it.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 28, 2021, 01:49:11 PM
I’m not bored, I’m curious  :D

Still sounds like you have to add water to get malted barley to make maltose. Is that inaccurate? Are you counting the moisture present in AT as water that begins the process, or saying the maltose itself already exists in malted barley, maybe just in small amounts?

Feel free to point me to a good source if it’s too much for this thread.

As for the OP and guessing about Mamas TOO dough, based on clues from Scott and Franco, I would try a 14+% protein flour at 68-70% H2O with 5% oil and 3% salt and see how it works. The workflow is going to be important too, maybe bulk with stretch and folds for a day or two before balling and proofing. Scott’s right to point to them having the proof down pat. Then it’s soft hands to stretch and preserve all that air. .35-.4% IDY for 2- day ferment...? Let us know if you try it, I’m not sure there’s a Mamas TOO clone thread yet!

Do we know what kind of mixer they use?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 28, 2021, 02:11:11 PM
I’m not bored, I’m curious  :D

Still sounds like you have to add water to get malted barley to make maltose. Is that inaccurate? Are you counting the moisture present in AT as water that begins the process, or saying the maltose itself already exists in malted barley, maybe just in small amounts?

Feel free to point me to a good source if it’s too much for this thread.

As for the OP and guessing about Mamas TOO dough, based on clues from Scott and Franco, I would try a 14+% protein flour at 68-70% H2O with 5% oil and 3% salt and see how it works. The workflow is going to be important too, maybe bulk with stretch and folds for a day or two before balling and proofing. Scott’s right to point to them having the proof down pat. Then it’s soft hands to stretch and preserve all that air. .35-.4% IDY for 2- day ferment...? Let us know if you try it, I’m not sure there’s a Mamas TOO clone thread yet!

Do we know what kind of mixer they use?
Yes, you have to add water to extract the maltose that's chemically locked up inside the grains. It's a topic that takes some time to understand, but you don't really have to delve too deep to get the basic ideas. Here's a link to a page that explains basic all-grain homebrewing, if you want to take a look: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/tutorials/all-grain-batch-sparge-homebrewing/all-grain-batch-sparge-homebrewing-video-series/ I haven't actually watched the videos myself, but this is a good authoritative source.
As far as the Mama's Too dough is concerned, I'm really not a high hydration guy myself, but I still find their pizza intriguing. I've had my best pizza doughs when I've worked in the 58% to 62% range, but I do occasionally experiment in the higher range when I get the urge.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jsobolew on October 28, 2021, 03:23:14 PM
Thanks for the info and education. Personally, I wouldn't consider a malted barley that contains natural substances that chemically break down into maltose which is a form of naturally occuring sugar to be synonymous with "sugar in the flour." In the same way, one could say they don't put sugar in their sauce, although tomatoes would have some naturally occurring sugars. Nonetheless, happy to learn a new thing. Now I know why my sourdough starter likes flours with malted barley so much.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 28, 2021, 03:30:44 PM
I'm going to be a broken record chiming in with this whenever Mama's Too comes up, but Frank was adamant about a delayed salt addition when talking dough with the group on Chau's tour.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on October 28, 2021, 03:40:38 PM
On the malt issue, in the context of dough making, I have relied on the definition for DIASTATIC MALT in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 28, 2021, 10:36:46 PM
Thanks for the info and education. Personally, I wouldn't consider a malted barley that contains natural substances that chemically break down into maltose which is a form of naturally occuring sugar to be synonymous with "sugar in the flour." In the same way, one could say they don't put sugar in their sauce, although tomatoes would have some naturally occurring sugars. Nonetheless, happy to learn a new thing. Now I know why my sourdough starter likes flours with malted barley so much.
I'm not sure if you're understanding what I was saying. The maltose doesn't develop in the dough; the barley malt extract is maltose already. It's a form of sugar, no question about it, and it's already present in the flour before any water is added or any kind of chemical reaction is activated. It just happens to have an enzyme in it that helps the yeast digest the other carbohydrates present in the flour.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 29, 2021, 08:17:25 AM
I think I might see the confusion here:  In the 2nd video you linked to above, there’s an explicit acknowledgement that barley malt extract has already undergone the process of becoming sugar, while malted grain by itself still needs the presence of water to begin performing its enzymatic magic of making maltose out of starch, like you said. These are two different substances, diastatic and non-diastatic malt. Diastatic malt is usually what goes into bags of flour, and it is not yet sugar (although diastatic malt CAN be packaged as a blend of malted grain, flour, and added sugar when the goal is to keep enzymatic activity of the product very low and controlled). Non-diastatic malt, on the other hand, is absolutely sugar already, but that’s not what we’re looking at adding to All Trumps. Is it possible you’re referring to these substances interchangeably?

Thanks for the glossary link Peter. Hope I’ve gotten it mostly right.

Jon, I found this pic of a Pizzamaster in Central Park (!!) and laughed out loud. That’s an expensive toy to take jogging!! Wonder if it made its way to the shop after this event?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2RbcJlqvc/
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 29, 2021, 09:08:28 AM
You'll have to report back. It's a small shop. I'm not sure how that pizzamaster oven fits without taking out another oven. Maybe they have more space downstairs?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 29, 2021, 09:47:10 AM
I think I might see the confusion here:  In the 2nd video you linked to above, there’s an explicit acknowledgement that barley malt extract has already undergone the process of becoming sugar, while malted grain by itself still needs the presence of water to begin performing its enzymatic magic of making maltose out of starch, like you said. These are two different substances, diastatic and non-diastatic malt. Diastatic malt is usually what goes into bags of flour, and it is not yet sugar (although diastatic malt CAN be packaged as a blend of malted grain, flour, and added sugar when the goal is to keep enzymatic activity of the product very low and controlled). Non-diastatic malt, on the other hand, is absolutely sugar already, but that’s not what we’re looking at adding to All Trumps. Is it possible you’re referring to these substances interchangeably?

Thanks for the glossary link Peter. Hope I’ve gotten it mostly right.

Jon, I found this pic of a Pizzamaster in Central Park (!!) and laughed out loud. That’s an expensive toy to take jogging!! Wonder if it made its way to the shop after this event?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2RbcJlqvc/
Okay, here's the first sentence of the definition of diastatic barley malt from the glossary: "A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning." It's the "for use as food for the yeast during fermentation" part I'm specifically referring to. This is reinforcing what i was saying before. It acts as food for the yeast because it is maltose, i.e. malt sugar. It already is malt sugar; it's not waiting to be converted. The only confusion is the diastatic vs. non-diastatic part. Non-diastatic malt extract does not have any enzymes present because they've already been used in the processing of extracting the maltose from the grain, but it's still maltose. Diastatic malt extract is maltose that has had some enzyme added back in. They're both forms of maltose (malt sugar), but one has enzymes in it to help extract more usable carbohydrates from flour for yeast to consume. The whole reason both products are called "malt extract" is because they're both maltose that's been extracted from grains. Hopefully that helps clear thing up.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on October 29, 2021, 10:01:10 AM
"to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast"

This.

Malt has amylase enzymes that convert starch in the flour into maltose...
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 29, 2021, 10:15:43 AM
This.

Malt has amylase enzymes that convert starch in the flour into maltose...
Only diastatic malt extract does. Non-diastatic malt does not have any enzymes left in it after the process of extracting the maltose from the malted grain. But no matter what, malt extract, whether it's diastatic or non-diastatic is maltose; no question about it. That's the whole reason it's called "malt extract". The very name of the product tells you that it's malt sugar (maltose) that's been extracted from grains. I'm not sure if you were contradicting me or agreeing with me, so I'm sorry if I sound a bit pedantic. I'm not trying to.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 29, 2021, 10:33:01 AM
 At the risk of taking this thread way off-track, I feel it's necessary to help clarify something that I brought up myself. When you brew beer either at home (which I did for a good 17 years) or professionally, the process revolves mostly around the usage of maltose (malt extract). You either obtain it yourself by steeping grains in water at specified temps for certain staggered durations of time (all-grain brewing); or you just buy malt extract in the form of powder or syrup. You use this second class of product to add malt sugar to your wort (unfermented beer), in order to bring the wort up to the desired OG (original gravity- the concentration of sugar in the wort needed to obtain the desired alcohol content in the finished beer). That's how it works. I don't want to go on and on, but let me just summarize that malt extract is malt sugar- period, end of story. There is an enzyme added back into diastatic malt extract, but it's still maltose. There is no such thing as malt extract that does not consist almost entirely of maltose; or at least there isn't any such thing available in the retail world as far as I know. And even if there were, that's definitely not what we're using when we're using malt extract in pizza dough, or would ever want to use. Trust me on this one, guys. Here's a good starting point to understand what I'm talking about: https://food.briess.com/capabilities/extraction-drying/
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2021, 01:12:32 PM
Another term from the forum's Pizza Glossary may help. It is the one for ALPHA-AMYLASE, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

And here is a post on the subject that quotes the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=609.msg5969;topicseen#msg5969

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 29, 2021, 02:03:05 PM
Another term from the forum's Pizza Glossary may help. It is the one for ALPHA-AMYLASE, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

And here is a post on the subject that quotes the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=609.msg5969;topicseen#msg5969

Peter
Good information. Another important piece of information that I think is probably often forgotten or largely unknown is that wheat flour itself already contains naturally occuring enzymes which are activated when mixed with water. This is why flours such "00" that contain no added sugar of any kind are still fermentable even if no sugar is added in the dough mixture, and it also helps explain why Neapolitan pizza crust has such a completely different sort of crumb structure than any other type of crust. The dough mixture "self converts" from the enzymatic action activated by water, over time. No extra sugar or enzymes have to be added to flour to produce fermentation when water and yeast is mixed with flour; it just helps the process along.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2021, 05:35:03 PM
Randy,

I believe what you have in mind with respect to natural sugars in flour is discussed under Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at:

https://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 29, 2021, 05:36:21 PM
Peter,

That response you quoted from Tom Lehman makes it sound like non-diastatic malt (sugar) is what is most often added to flour after milling, but is that the case? There are many other instances where he clearly (I think!) states that diastatic malt is what is added. Is it both?

This thread attempts to unravel the confusing terminology used between brewers and bakers’ communities regarding malt, and seems to end with Tom saying that it’s enzymatically active flour that millers mean by “barley malt,” not “extract” or enzymatically inert maltose:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64942.0

If you could clarify on this point, that’d be a big help! If millers are just adding maltose to flour then this conversation can end, but that’s never been my impression...

RHawthorne, there seems to be a difference between diastatic malt extract and diastatic malt flour, with the former being as you describe and the latter being otherwise. Is it possible we’re still talking about different substances?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 29, 2021, 10:11:14 PM


RHawthorne, there seems to be a difference between diastatic malt extract and diastatic malt flour, with the former being as you describe and the latter being otherwise. Is it possible we’re still talking about different substances?
Yes, those are definitely different things. I only ever heard about diastatic malt flour for the first time earlier today, on this webpage https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/  I've definitely never used it and can't say anything useful about it.
 I also noticed that confusing statement from Tom Lehman about non-diastatic malt extract being added to flour. But what has always confused me is why anybody thinks they need to buy diastatic malt extract anyway, when it's clearly already in almost every kind of flour that's available in the retail world besides "00" flour. I can see no real need to increase the enzyme activity catalyzed in the fermentation process. Once you add water and yeast, and you're using flour that's got diastatic malt extract in it, why would you ever think that's not good enough? Call me stupid, but I just don't get it. The cynical side of me can't help wondering if companies that sell the stuff are just preying on people who are convinced that they're doing something wrong if they're not using it, which is absolutely not the case as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2021, 10:32:46 AM
Doug and Randy,

I believe that what Tom was trying to say in the post I cited is that non-diastatic malt not be added to flours at the facilities of millers, but rather, as a form of sugar, be used by end users to make products that call for or benefit from sugars. For example, those end products could include pizza dough (Tom suggests reducing or eliminating any sugar in recipes), bread dough, bagels, pastries, and a wide range of desserts (including cakes and cookies). I should further note that to make non-diastatic malt, the alpha-amylase enzyme is inactivated from its diastatic state by using higher processing temperatures.

Maybe this further post by Tom offers some clarification:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58972.msg591738#msg591738

In my own case, I tried to note the attributes of non-diastatic malt in the definition of the term NON-DIASTATIC MALT in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_n

With respect to diastatic malt, that is what is used in flours produced by millers. It is because of the alpha-amylase enzyme. In order to confirm that use, several years ago I sent an email to Tim Huff at General Mills. I had had several exchanges with him over the years and he always responded in a helpful matter In my email, I asked Tim if their barley malt was a diastatic malt. His reply was yes, as can be seen in the post at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388#msg106388

This subject can be very confusing and especially so since there are so many different forms and versions produced by companies such as Briess and Malt Products Corporation. But their websites offer a lot of information on their products and how they make them. In my own case, I found the following article of value and included it in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658

This thread may also be interesting in that I came up with a dough formulation using a non-diastatic barley malt syrup:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11825.msg109805#msg109805

And a couple other members came up with dough formulations using a non-diastatic malt powder:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg671128;topicseen#msg671128

Reply 996 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg385427#msg385427

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 30, 2021, 11:44:49 AM

With respect to diastatic malt, that is what is used in flours produced by millers. It is because of the alpha-amylase enzyme. In order to confirm that use, several years ago I sent an email to Tim Huff at General Mills. I had had several exchanges with him over the years and he always responded in a helpful matter In my email, I asked Tim if their barley malt was a diastatic malt. His reply was yes, as can be seen in the post at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388#msg106388



This thread may also be interesting in that I came up with a dough formulation using a non-diastatic barley malt syrup:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11825.msg109805#msg109805

And a couple other members came up with dough formulations using a non-diastatic malt powder:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg671128;topicseen#msg671128

Reply 996 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg385427#msg385427

Peter
Thanks for the input, but again I ask the question: why would anybody feel the need to obtain diastatic malt extract separately, when we know that it's already in practically every flour on the market that we might use for pizza dough besides "00"? Why does anybody think that what's in the flour already isn't sufficient?
And if anybody wants non-diastatic malt extract, it's easy enough to buy, so why would anybody undertake the task of making it themselves? I can respect the DIY ambition, I guess, but I can't see how such a product could possibly equal the quality of something that's ready-made by a company that does it professionally, and there's no way there would be any cost savings. I'm more than a little confused on both of these points.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on October 30, 2021, 12:18:24 PM
I hope we can get this topic back on track (I LOVE MAMAS TOO!!) but I did want to point out....

We have had quite a few well respected members that make exceptional pizza find the need to add a little more diastatic malt than what comes in typical American flours already.  As you know European flours are not typically treated with enzymes or diastatic malt, but there are quite a few domestic flours that are not either.  I have found that most organic flours, and many lower protein flours are not treated.   Additional malt or enzymes is not something I typically need, as I have strong ovens, but for people with home ovens that aren't particularly powerful, or for recipes that require a lower baking temp, adding in some diastatic malt can do wonders.   I know Hans uses diastatic malt along with a flour with enzymes/diastatic malt from the factory in his wonderful Detroit style recipe that he has been kind enough to share with the forum.  That recipe has many fans here (including myself). 

Lately I have been finding the addition of diastatic malt useful for doughs that use preferments in large quantities, as they can often produce pizzas that lack the coloration of a direct dough.  The use of diastatic malt in these situations gives you the ability to have lots of flavor from extended fermentation with the amount of browning and char that you normally find with a direct dough.  Often times with these strongly fermented doughs the pizza can turn out pale.

I agree that its easy to find malted/enzyme enriched flours here in the USA, and for many purposes these flours have a good amount of enrichment.

If your not baking with high temp ovens you might want to play around with adding some extra non diastatic malt to your favorite flour and see how you like what it does.  To me it seems to do more than just add color, and there may be a textural advantage as well.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
Thanks for the input, but again I ask the question: why would anybody feel the need to obtain diastatic malt extract separately, when we know that it's already in practically every flour on the market that we might use for pizza dough besides "00"? Why does anybody think that what's in the flour already isn't sufficient?
And if anybody wants non-diastatic malt extract, it's easy enough to buy, so why would anybody undertake the task of making it themselves? I can respect the DIY ambition, I guess, but I can't see how such a product could possibly equal the quality of something that's ready-made by a company that does it professionally, and there's no way there would be any cost savings. I'm more than a little confused on both of these points.
Randy,

To add to what scott r said, you might want to take a look at the following post that has links to a lot of the work that Tony Gemignani has done and where he adds diastatic malt to his flours that already contain diastatic malt:

Reply 45 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg347053#msg347053

Tony G likes to use low diastatic malt powder but the heavy duty stuff with high Lintner degrees numbers can also be used but in less quantity.

As for the non-diastatic malt, I am not aware of any member on this forum who has made such a product from scratch. When I played around with the liquid non-diastatic malt, I used an Eden Foods product similar to the one shown at:

https://store.edenfoods.com/barley-malt-syrup-organic/

I also made my own diastatic malt in my own home using this recipe:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070126080004/http://www.radicalfrugality.info/homemade-diastatic-malt.html

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 30, 2021, 01:38:17 PM
The OP is in for a lot of links when they come back!

I think knowing that the deep color and caramelization of Mamas TOO’s crusts comes not from added sugar, but just from oil, hydration, the ferment and the bake, is pretty neat. Does anyone from the 2018 tour remember seeing a mixer?

At that time Franco was saying 70% hydration and 10% oil. Now it sounds like the oil has come down and the video Matt posted has him saying 74% hydration. I wonder if the water got switched for oil and the effective hydration is still near 80, or if he’s counting oil in that 74%...

I’d like to try making this pizza when I get back from next week’s visit. It should be a blast to work on.

Thanks Peter and Scott for your help and insights
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: hammettjr on October 30, 2021, 02:04:15 PM
What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."

Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 30, 2021, 02:13:18 PM
This is a great thread!


Scott, that's great information about the browning.vs preferments.I usually do long ferments and steer away from LDM , but maybe a small amount could enhance especially my SD pizzas where the paler crusts can happen
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: GumbaWill on October 30, 2021, 03:43:13 PM
Make sure you watch the video below if you haven't already.

https://youtu.be/zZyvn7ajxaI

Off the hook! Still doing research here. I know, I know, making changes without an actual bake is not recommended. However, That is the cocky Roadside Pie King way! Smile, (I may live to regret boasting here)
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: kori on October 30, 2021, 03:45:12 PM
I know you guys are trying to get back on topic so I apologize now but just wanted to point something out, may help some ppl from purchasing the wrong product.

The words diastatic malt & extract should not be used together. Diastatic malt is just diastatic malt, not an extract. If the word extract is used then it is non-diastatic. You can find products being sold as "malt extract" which makes it confusing to many because it doesn't specify if it's diastatic or non, because it's an extract it is definetly non-diastatic malt. Also, if it's being sold as a liquid/syrup then it will always be non-diastatic.

Here is an old thread from 2006 with a link that simplified the difference for me:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2770.msg23932#msg23932

My apologies again for not keeping on topic, thought this may help.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 30, 2021, 03:57:47 PM
Does anyone from the 2018 tour remember seeing a mixer?


This is from memory, and my guess is things have changed....

There was no mixer on the shop level of the space. There's just no room for one. At the time, and again this is an aging memory, I recall Frank saying dough was being mixed at the original Mama's kitchen, that's about a block away from Mama's Too. I think it was a Hobart.

I'd be surprised if that was still true. I do remember getting into a car with Chau and Scott123 right after we left and sitting in the middle of a passionate discussion on hydration, effective hydration and All Trumps. It was basically a "how did Frank do that?" discussion. What a great day that was...
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on October 30, 2021, 06:16:44 PM
Frank took me downstairs, I'm quite sure there is a mixer down there.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 30, 2021, 07:36:26 PM
I hope we can get this topic back on track (I LOVE MAMAS TOO!!) but I did want to point out....

We have had quite a few well respected members that make exceptional pizza find the need to add a little more diastatic malt than what comes in typical American flours already.  As you know European flours are not typically treated with enzymes or diastatic malt, but there are quite a few domestic flours that are not either.  I have found that most organic flours, and many lower protein flours are not treated.   Additional malt or enzymes is not something I typically need, as I have strong ovens, but for people with home ovens that aren't particularly powerful, or for recipes that require a lower baking temp, adding in some diastatic malt can do wonders.   I know Hans uses diastatic malt along with a flour with enzymes/diastatic malt from the factory in his wonderful Detroit style recipe that he has been kind enough to share with the forum.  That recipe has many fans here (including myself). 

Lately I have been finding the addition of diastatic malt useful for doughs that use preferments in large quantities, as they can often produce pizzas that lack the coloration of a direct dough.  The use of diastatic malt in these situations gives you the ability to have lots of flavor from extended fermentation with the amount of browning and char that you normally find with a direct dough.  Often times with these strongly fermented doughs the pizza can turn out pale.

I agree that its easy to find malted/enzyme enriched flours here in the USA, and for many purposes these flours have a good amount of enrichment.

If your not baking with high temp ovens you might want to play around with adding some extra non diastatic malt to your favorite flour and see how you like what it does.  To me it seems to do more than just add color, and there may be a textural advantage as well.
Those are all valid points, and by no means am I suggesting that my expertise or insight with making pizza is greater than anyone else's here because I also happen to have experience making beer, just to get that out of the way. But I still can't help wondering if people who add extra malt extract to their pizza dough are really getting enough enhanced enzymatic activity to make a real difference, or if what they're seeing in their finished crust is just coming from the additional sugar. I'm leaning (strongly) towards the latter conclusion, but I will not try to make any claims of authority on that. Also, if people who use DME are so concerned about enhancing enzymatic activity in their dough, why don't they just buy amylase enzyme directly and use that? The stuff is cheap and easily available, but I've never even once heard anybody in the world of baking (either pizza or bread) say that they use it. But anyway, I have no objection if anybody wants to split this discussion off onto another thread, because yes, we are getting a bit off track from the original topic.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 30, 2021, 07:38:48 PM
What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."
Yeah, I thought that was a rather long bake time for that temp.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on October 30, 2021, 07:57:22 PM
I know you guys are trying to get back on topic so I apologize now but just wanted to point something out, may help some ppl from purchasing the wrong product.

The words diastatic malt & extract should not be used together. Diastatic malt is just diastatic malt, not an extract. If the word extract is used then it is non-diastatic. You can find products being sold as "malt extract" which makes it confusing to many because it doesn't specify if it's diastatic or non, because it's an extract it is definetly non-diastatic malt. Also, if it's being sold as a liquid/syrup then it will always be non-diastatic.

Here is an old thread from 2006 with a link that simplified the difference for me:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2770.msg23932#msg23932

My apologies again for not keeping on topic, thought this may help.
Not accurate. Here is but one example https://www.malteurop.com/en/products/liquid-diastatic-malt-extracts
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: kori on October 30, 2021, 09:34:42 PM
Not accurate. Here is but one example https://www.malteurop.com/en/products/liquid-diastatic-malt-extracts

My mistake, too much too learn!  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on October 31, 2021, 10:28:37 AM
I'm going to be a broken record chiming in with this whenever Mama's Too comes up, but Frank was adamant about a delayed salt addition when talking dough with the group on Chau's tour.
That is part of the Apizza Scholls process too. It’s amazing how much and how quickly the dough changes.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 31, 2021, 10:44:02 AM
Randy, you are literally KILLING ME here :-D

Every mention you make of “malted barley” refers to it as malt EXTRACT, and NONE of the baking-specific sources I can find refers to “malted barley flour” as an EXTRACT (unless it’s to point to a more specific product offered by a malt producer). You have got to stop thinking in that term! It is not what we are talking about!

Malted barley flour is just sprouted grain that has been dried and ground. It is NOT YET SUGAR! It gets added to flour by a miller to achieve a specific value of Falling Number, which is a test of enzymatic activity! You have to make a dough—add water—to get the malted barley flour to begin aiding in the conversion of starch INTO fermentable sugars IN the dough. You have said this yourself! And the sources you’ve shared all refer to EXTRACT being SUGAR because it’s already been put through this process. In baking, the sprouted grain does its “extraction” in the dough. That’s the whole point. If it was just adding maltose, they would say that! So in a sense, “why aren’t they just adding alpha-amylase?” is kind of an insane question because that’s exactly what they’ve been telling you they’re doing, the whole time!

Google “malted barley flour” and see every definitive source, every major miller, every research organization, every hipster blog is saying this same thing. When you find someone eventually talking about “malted barley EXTRACT” you have gotten into a brewing discussion, or come across a very small set of products that may well be what you are trying to talk about, but that are definitively NOT what we mean when we talk about the “malted barley” or “diastatic malt” that is routinely added to flour. The confusion in terms is exactly the issue with this whole discussion, and is why it blows up so much when it comes up, so to make progress we all have to strive to bring as much clarity as possible to our use of these terms.

Now you are suggesting that the very knowledgeable folks here and elsewhere in the pizza world, who have successfully made god-knows-how-many pizzas using additional diastatic malt on top of what millers already add to most commercial flours, refining and tweaking and experimenting and observing its effects over the course of years and careers, are just imagining things, or misunderstanding their tools? Come on, man!

This article Peter posted above is a great resource for seeing not only the differences between these products and tools and their varying/overlapping applications, but also shows how easy it is for professionals to slip into casually referring to different forms of malt as “malt” without differentiating or specifying which form they mean in a given context.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658
I implore you, see that we are NOT talking about malt extract in the context of this conversation—or rather, that only you are, and that that’s why the threat of thread derailing or pedantry keeps looming above us.

I can’t stay on this merry go round of torture any longer, Randy! Please deliver me from its grasp!!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 31, 2021, 10:53:28 AM
This is from memory, and my guess is things have changed....

There was no mixer on the shop level of the space. There's just no room for one. At the time, and again this is an aging memory, I recall Frank saying dough was being mixed at the original Mama's kitchen, that's about a block away from Mama's Too. I think it was a Hobart.

I'd be surprised if that was still true. I do remember getting into a car with Chau and Scott123 right after we left and sitting in the middle of a passionate discussion on hydration, effective hydration and All Trumps. It was basically a "how did Frank do that?" discussion. What a great day that was...

If they’re bringing a dough that wet together in a Hobart, the delayed salt would be crucial. I would have guessed they had a spiral from the start. Frank’s tough though 8) I love how they’re ending all their Instagram posts with the word pal now. Chicken parm is back PAL.

What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."



That sounds right to me for a very wet dough, to get it as dark as they do. Didn’t he say 20 minutes+ for the squares?

I wonder how much dough they make daily and what the workflow is.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 31, 2021, 11:12:13 AM
Keep in mind I think Mama's Too had only been open a 5 or 6 months when the tour stopped in. So that was before the NYT review and the long lines. There was a buzz about the place, but it was nothing like it is today. I'm sure they make much more dough dough daily now and at least a few things have changed. But not the late salt addition. Frank was passionate about that detail. Not sure it fully translates to a home cook's small batch process, but he definitely felt it impacted his.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 31, 2021, 11:33:03 AM
Jon...I'd love some of his pizza now..but the commute is a killer :-D
What I remember is I loved it so much..One bite, we know the rules lol.
It was obvious this was world class stuff


But...it was first stop of a very long day of pizza eating,  and if I had more than a sample, I'd be in trouble later. So I left myself appetite..so I could eat stuff like that powdered sugar disaster later that day
Forgive me. Frank  :-D





Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 31, 2021, 11:54:31 AM
Jon...I'd love some of his pizza now..but the commute is a killer :-D
What I remember is I loved it so much..One bite, we know the rules lol.
It was obvious this was world class stuff


But...it was first stop of a very long day of pizza eating,  and if I had more than a sample, I'd be in trouble later. So I left myself appetite..so I could eat stuff like that powdered sugar disaster later that day
Forgive me. Frank  :-D
I'm a lot closer than you, and I still haven't revisited Mamas Too. The few times I've been back to the city, there has been other scheduled stuff going on and I just haven't been able to make it back.

Almost made it to PizzaTown last weekend. They happened to be closed to celebrate a wedding on Friday when we drove by and weren't going to open for another hour when we drove by again on Sunday. Bad timing.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on October 31, 2021, 01:30:27 PM
In the video Matt posted, Frank makes a point to say the dough is proofed at ambient temp. In 2018, Jon noted from the tour that he had said it was cold fermented for 48 hrs. I think that’s a huge part of the lightness of the crust, beyond just the high hydration—I’m guessing after 48 hrs in the fridge, it gets balled and left to rise at room temp. He also dumps his dough ball out of a metal canister which would suggest its been rising at room temp and not in trays in a walk-in. That same-day balling approach always gives me the “eggshell” crust. Another hint for the OP to consider when trying to replicate the lightness and crispness of the round pie.

Also from Jon in 2018 is a note that the cheese is not Grande but that it is from Wisconsin. In the video he again says Wisconsin and calls it aged mozzarella. I wonder what it is? These are not shy flavors. Garlic and olive oil everywhere!

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51896.msg523890#msg523890
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on October 31, 2021, 03:50:07 PM
Randy, you are literally KILLING ME here :-D

Every mention you make of “malted barley” refers to it as malt EXTRACT, and NONE of the baking-specific sources I can find refers to “malted barley flour” as an EXTRACT (unless it’s to point to a more specific product offered by a malt producer). You have got to stop thinking in that term! It is not what we are talking about!

Malted barley flour is just sprouted grain that has been dried and ground. It is NOT YET SUGAR! It gets added to flour by a miller to achieve a specific value of Falling Number, which is a test of enzymatic activity! You have to make a dough—add water—to get the malted barley flour to begin aiding in the conversion of starch INTO fermentable sugars IN the dough. You have said this yourself! And the sources you’ve shared all refer to EXTRACT being SUGAR because it’s already been put through this process. In baking, the sprouted grain does its “extraction” in the dough. That’s the whole point. If it was just adding maltose, they would say that! So in a sense, “why aren’t they just adding alpha-amylase?” is kind of an insane question because that’s exactly what they’ve been telling you they’re doing, the whole time!

Google “malted barley flour” and see every definitive source, every major miller, every research organization, every hipster blog is saying this same thing. When you find someone eventually talking about “malted barley EXTRACT” you have gotten into a brewing discussion, or come across a very small set of products that may well be what you are trying to talk about, but that are definitively NOT what we mean when we talk about the “malted barley” or “diastatic malt” that is routinely added to flour. The confusion in terms is exactly the issue with this whole discussion, and is why it blows up so much when it comes up, so to make progress we all have to strive to bring as much clarity as possible to our use of these terms.

Now you are suggesting that the very knowledgeable folks here and elsewhere in the pizza world, who have successfully made god-knows-how-many pizzas using additional diastatic malt on top of what millers already add to most commercial flours, refining and tweaking and experimenting and observing its effects over the course of years and careers, are just imagining things, or misunderstanding their tools? Come on, man!

This article Peter posted above is a great resource for seeing not only the differences between these products and tools and their varying/overlapping applications, but also shows how easy it is for professionals to slip into casually referring to different forms of malt as “malt” without differentiating or specifying which form they mean in a given context.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658
I implore you, see that we are NOT talking about malt extract in the context of this conversation—or rather, that only you are, and that that’s why the threat of thread derailing or pedantry keeps looming above us.

I can’t stay on this merry go round of torture any longer, Randy! Please deliver me from its grasp!!
Okay, here's a good webpage for you to look at if you still don't think that I'm on the right track: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/ In this article, you will see that it lists malted barley in several forms, including flour- but I never said that I was talking about malted barley flour anyway. Additionally, if you scroll down a little, it tells you clearly that it is definitely the same product used in both brewing and baking. You will also see in this article that the malt extract "feeds the yeast". That, right there, tells you in no uncertain terms that it is definitely a form of sugar, whether it is already sugar before it goes into the dough or it "becomes" sugar after you mix water with it...which brings me to the next point of paramount importance: in order for water to extract maltose from malted barley, it has to be hot- as in a minimum of 132 F- a temp which would kill any yeast in the dough long before any conversion process could take place- not to mention the fact that this process could not possibly take place within a matter of minutes. Both of these points right here render the whole idea of malt extract "becoming" maltose in the dough is completely moot anyway (if we're going to get back to the main topic here, which was whether or not any sugar was added to the dough), because if you're using a flour with malted barley powder in it, you're either adding sugar directly, or you're catalyzing a process which is going to create more sugar in the dough, one way or another.
 And if you don't believe me when I say that malted barley used for brewing or baking are exactly the same thing (disregarding the 'diastatic' designation, which doesn't change the fact that it's malted barley), here's an amazon sales pages for one product designated as 'diastatic malt powder for baking' https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/ in which you will see in the ingredient list 'diastatic barley malt' (the terms 'barley malt' and 'malted barley' are interchangeable and mean exactly the same thing). If that's not enough for you, here's another webpagehttps://www.delightedcooking.com/what-is-barley-malt.htm   that defines barley malt as a 'natural sweetener', and also states that it has a high concentration of maltose.
 I think I've done more than enough to supply a concrete and objective foundation for my end of the discussion. If you don't believe all of this, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to put the burden of proof on you to find a link from any kind of authoritative source anywhere that states that malted barley used for baking is something different than malted barley used for brewing. I'm sorry if you find this discussion "torturous" or "pedantic" on my part, but I've got a combined experience between baking and brewing of at least 26 years, and I hope you can understand if I feel that I have very good reasons for saying the things I'm saying; and I also hope you'll at least recognize that I've been constructing my dialogue with sources other than just my own opinions. I'm not saying this stuff just to hear myself talk, or prove that I'm "right". I'm just trying to help spread useful information.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 01, 2021, 08:23:49 AM
That is part of the Apizza Scholls process too. It’s amazing how much and how quickly the dough changes.

Apizza Scholls process: https://youtu.be/PYFBg0vAceA?t=421
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 01, 2021, 03:35:47 PM
Randy, you are literally KILLING ME here :-D

Every mention you make of “malted barley” refers to it as malt EXTRACT, and NONE of the baking-specific sources I can find refers to “malted barley flour” as an EXTRACT (unless it’s to point to a more specific product offered by a malt producer). You have got to stop thinking in that term! It is not what we are talking about!

Malted barley flour is just sprouted grain that has been dried and ground. It is NOT YET SUGAR!
Okay, I just got ahold of a person at Pillsbury to ask about the malted barley flour
 ingredient, and you are right. It contains no sugar. I still don’t understand why people want to seek out and use diastatic malt extract, when there are plenty of enzymes naturally present in flour, and usually also in flour from malted barley. Why people think that there won’t be sufficient enzymatic activity already is beyond my understanding. Anyway, you can be delivered from the "wheel of torture" now. Carry on.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: GumbaWill on November 01, 2021, 03:45:48 PM
That's exactly what the term 'malted' is supposed to mean. Anyway, you can be delivered from the "wheel of torture" now. Carry on.

 Now I have a hankering for an old-school, Candy store fountain malted milk shake! Thanks a lot for the itch that needs scratching!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 01, 2021, 03:56:37 PM
Now I have a hankering for an old-school, Candy store fountain malted milk shake! Thanks a lot for the itch that needs scratching!
Actually, you can scratch what I said on that point, too. I guess I’m just getting old. There’s a lot of conflicting info on the Internet on this topic, and a lot that’s either highly questionable or just flat out wrong.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2021, 05:05:05 PM
Okay, I just got ahold of a person at Pillsbury to ask about the malted barley flour
 ingredient, and you are right. It contains no sugar. I still don’t understand why people want to seek out and use diastatic malt extract, when all enzymes naturally present in flour, and usually also in flour from malted barley powder. Why people think that there won’t be sufficient enzymatic activity already is beyond my understanding. Anyway, you can be delivered from the "wheel of torture" now. Carry on.
Randy,

Except perhaps for a 00 flour or similar flour, Tom Lehmann did not encourage members to use diastatic malt, but at the same time he knew that some members did so. So, if I understand your position on this matter correctly, this post by Tom appears to align with your view of the efficacy of adding diastatic malt to a flour that is already malted:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39224.msg392079#msg392079

I also found this post today where Tom tried in a few words to define the differences between diastatic malt and non-diastatic malt, at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57817.msg580308#msg580308 non-diastatic malt.

Reply
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 01, 2021, 06:21:44 PM
Randy,

Except perhaps for a 00 flour or similar flour, Tom Lehmann did not encourage members to use diastatic malt, but at the same time he knew that some members did so. So, if I understand your position on this matter correctly, this post by Tom appears to align with your view of the efficacy of adding diastatic malt to a flour that is already malted:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39224.msg392079#msg392079

I also found this post today where Tom tried in a few words to define the differences between diastatic malt and non-diastatic malt, at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57817.msg580308#msg580308 non-diastatic malt.

Reply
Yes, I was still partially correct on this matter, but I don’t want to go on and on about it.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on November 01, 2021, 10:14:01 PM
Apizza Scholls process: https://youtu.be/PYFBg0vAceA?t=421 (https://youtu.be/PYFBg0vAceA?t=421)
I’ve seen that series but watched this part again tonight. In my previous post I considered adding something indicating that I was referring to the first version of his formula and process. The one that was discussed here and added to the ‘Dough Generator’ that now seems to be inoperable. [size=78%]http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/index.php (http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/index.php)[/size] I have a screen shot and notes I work from. Bryan has moved on but I have not.  :-D


It was odd to see him discuss the keep-the-salt-away-from-the-yeast idea. The only formula for which I use the late addition of salt is APS. Interesting that it seems to be important at Mama’s Too.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2021, 10:26:13 PM
Tony,

I found a Wayback Machine version of the inoperative link you cited and edited the posts in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=66215.msg646928#msg646928

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on November 01, 2021, 11:20:25 PM
Thank you, Peter. That formula is still a great one for people with common ingredients and home ovens. He has made many changes from using a mixer, to changing flours, and reducing or eliminating oil. Since my circumstances have not changed, I still use this one from time to time. It was a great evening for me to have dinner at Buddy's with Hans and Brian and to talk with him (them) about dough sometime in May 2018.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 02, 2021, 10:59:00 AM
I still don’t understand why people want to seek out and use diastatic malt

As Scott said, it can be helpful in achieving crust coloration with doughs that are heavily prefermented, as the preferment can exhaust residual sugars in the dough that would otherwise contribute to browning.

It has also found popularity on this site with relatively short ferments (4 hrs or so) as a flavor and texture improver. Hans’ “reply 115” Detroit style dough is one that fits this bill.

Diastatic malt is a potentially wily ingredient that comes in many forms and strengths(**!!), but if you have specific crust goals in mind and are willing to research and experiment, it has proven its worth to many skilled pizza makers as an additive to already-malted flours. At the same time, if you’re using the commercially malted flours we’ve been talking about that already have malted barley flour added, it is far from necessary to produce great pizza. It’s all about your workflow, timeline, baking setup, other ingredients, and desired crust characteristics.

Keep in mind, many (if not most)  “diastatic malt powder” products available at the retail level will be a mixture of malted barley flour and other ingredients, such as flour and dextrose, and are meant to be diluted/less potent than malted barley flour alone.

Finally, it bears noting that some on this forum have tried using diastatic malt powder in their doughs and could not tell a difference in the finished product. If you choose to continue down this research path, I wish you much patience and good luck!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 02, 2021, 11:16:13 AM
Thank you, Peter. That formula is still a great one for people with common ingredients and home ovens. He has made many changes from using a mixer, to changing flours, and reducing or eliminating oil. Since my circumstances have not changed, I still use this one from time to time. It was a great evening for me to have dinner at Buddy's with Hans and Brian and to talk with him (them) about dough sometime in May 2018.

And switching to an electric oven!

I started using an autolyse+delayed salt incorporation when I started making bread with AP flour above 70% HR, and it did wonders for making the dough easier to work with for my inexperienced hands. I had a professional baker once tell me “time is an ingredient” in your dough formula, and with Mamas TOO’s dough being so wet, I can only imagine the delayed salt is helping that dough come together in their mixer by giving the flour a chance to hydrate before the salt shows up to start absorbing water..?

The other ingredient you often see delayed is oil. With Mamas TOO, any ideas if the oil goes in up front or if it’s also delayed?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on November 02, 2021, 11:32:13 AM
I dont know for sure, but I think that someone that knows to delay salt to get to his product is probably delaying oil too.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 02, 2021, 12:27:23 PM
...I had a professional baker once tell me “time is an ingredient” in your dough formula, and with Mamas TOO’s dough being so wet, I can only imagine the delayed salt is helping that dough come together in their mixer by giving the flour a chance to hydrate before the salt shows up to start absorbing water..?

An insightful post by Tom on the "delayed salt method":

Quote from: The Dough Doctor
When it comes to impact upon fermentation the yeast doesn't care when the salt is added, it's all the same. As to the impact of salt on dough mixing, you can develop gluten faster without salt in the dough. In a commercial bread or bun bakery the mixing time is reduced by about 2-minutes when the delayed salt addition mixing method is employed (this is when the salt is added to the dough about 4-minuted before the end of the mixing time).
In the mixing of pizza doughs where there is no need or desire to fully develop the gluten the delayed salt addition mixing method is seldom ever used. When making commercial frozen pizza dough, that's a different story, now the salt is almost always delayed as full gluten development is desired plus there doughs are mixed very cold making the doughs quite tough in the mixer, by delaying the salt addition in this case the gluten is developed faster and the dough is not quite as tough so it's overall easier on the mixer too, when you consider that the mixer carries a price tag of the better part of $100,00.00 this is an important consideration.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2021, 01:00:20 PM
As Scott said, it can be helpful in achieving crust coloration with doughs that are heavily prefermented, as the preferment can exhaust residual sugars in the dough that would otherwise contribute to browning.
Fair enough, but as far as I understand (albeit with some limitation, as I don't really delve into preferments very much), preferments are not supposed to consist of a large amount of the total dough anyway; maybe 30% at the most. If I'm wrong on this, by all means correct me. Accordingly, I would think that when you're adding a preferment to the larger body of dough, the dough that's just being mixed would have sufficient carbohydrates to compensate for that issue. And once again, if you think the available carbohydrates in the preferment have been exhausted (and we really should be talking in terms of carbohydrates anyway, no so much sugar, because it's really more accurate), then just add a little more when you incorporate the preferment into the fresh dough, problem solved (I would say). I'm not trying to be argumentative just for the sake of it or anything. I'm just going on instinct and logic. My mind never stops working overtime on anything that I'm really trying to master, and that's probably why I sometimes race past simple facts that others would stop at. Sometimes it helps me, and sometimes it doesn't. But it's never a matter of just arguing with other people just to prove that I'm "right" or anything like that, trust me. [/quote]

[/quote]
Keep in mind, many (if not most)  “diastatic malt powder” products available at the retail level will be a mixture of malted barley flour and other ingredients, such as flour and dextrose, and are meant to be diluted/less potent than malted barley flour alone.[/quote]

I'll have to take your word on that. I'm more inclined to use products sold as 'dough conditioner' anyway, because it generally contains ingredients such as ascorbic acid and other things that aren't already in most commercially available flour. I use brewer's malt extract from time to time, but not a ton of it. [/quote]

[/quote]
Finally, it bears noting that some on this forum have tried using diastatic malt powder in their doughs and could not tell a difference in the finished product. If you choose to continue down this research path, I wish you much patience and good luck![/quote]

Right. That's why I don't mess around with the stuff. If I want a little more fermentable sugar in my dough for the sake of browning, I'll just add it directly in the form of malt extract or just plain simple sugar. Augmenting enzymatic activity is not an undesirable goal, of course, but I think that just giving dough a good long fermentation period of at least 48 hours is adequate for sufficient enzymatic activity to take place naturally. Again, I don't mean to disregard the experience and insight of others who believe that they have seen improvements in their dough from the use of DME; I'm just not sure how they can accurately gauge the results they get from using it vs. just adding more sugar, unless they're seeing something significant in the way of gluten development improvement; in which case I would say more power to them.

P.S.: I tried to edit this post correctly so that all the quotes from your post would be highlighted, but that didn't happen. Oh well.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 02, 2021, 01:16:17 PM
And just to delve further into this rabbit hole, there is also a school of thought within the bakery arts which says that adding the yeast and salt together in the formula water at the beginning of the mixing phase will indeed have an effect on yeast fermentation, as well as the properties of the dough and the eventual finished product.

The idea is that the salt exerts osmotic pressure on the yeast cells, killing something on the order of 25%.  The dead yeast cells release glutathione and L-cysteine which are reducing agents which soften the dough.  This increased extensibility might be useful when making pizza.  Additionally, the surviving yeast cells accumulate glycerol as a defense mechanism, to offset the osmotic pressure from the salt.  In turn, it is thought that this glycerol helps in the expansion of the air bubbles in the dough, leading to greater volume in the finished product.

All of this is backed up by ostensibly legitimate scientific studies, but I don't really know what to make of them, I just bake. :)


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2021, 01:39:51 PM
And just to delve further into this rabbit hole, there is also a school of thought within the bakery arts which says that adding the yeast and salt together in the formula water at the beginning of the mixing phase will indeed have an effect on yeast fermentation, as well as the properties of the dough and the eventual finished product.

The idea is that the salt exerts osmotic pressure on the yeast cells, killing something on the order of 25%.  The dead yeast cells release glutathione and L-cysteine which are reducing agents which soften the dough.  This increased extensibility might be useful when making pizza.  Additionally, the surviving yeast cells accumulate glycerol as a defense mechanism, to offset the osmotic pressure from the salt.  In turn, it is thought that this glycerol helps in the expansion of the air bubbles in the dough, leading to greater volume in the finished product.

All of this is backed up by ostensibly legitimate scientific studies, but I don't really know what to make of them, I just bake. :)


Rolls
Yes, this is all true, too, of course. And even if salt does actually kill some yeast cells, they replenish and multiply, while the salt doesn't. Another important fact that for whatever reason is never discussed in the context of baking of any kind in my experience is that yeast does not eat all the available carbohydrates in dough under any circumstances. The yeast used in baking is pretty much the same used in brewing (saccharomyces cerevisiae), and in that field of endeavor, you will find that commercially available yeasts pretty much always have what's called the 'attenuation factor' or 'attenuation' specified by the manufacturer (which is the amount of available sugar the yeast will consume). This figure varies somewhat from one strain to another, but it's pretty much always in the range of 65% to 80% (approximately). The yeast of choice for any beer style depends heavily on how much residual sugar you want to have left in the beer after fermentation, as that's what will largely determine (in conjunction with other factors) the body and mouthfeel and perception of sweetness in the finished product, as well as the alcohol content. I have yet to see any published article that discusses the effect of yeast attenuation in baking (although I'm sure it must exist somewhere), but there's no question in my mind that it affects the quality of pizza dough as much as it does beer. What I'm ultimately saying is that although it helps to optimize enzymatic activity in pizza dough so that the yeast can have sufficient fuel to do it's job, the yeast will never eat all of the available carbohydrates anyway, no matter what. I think there's probably an underlying assumption going around that the yeast finishes it's job when there are no more carbohydrates available to eat in the dough, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is simply not true. It finishes it's job when it has reached the limits of what carbohydrates it can consume, and that means that there is always at least some residual sugar left in the dough. Sorry for the lengthy post, but I really think that this a rather neglected topic.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 02, 2021, 02:01:32 PM
I don't delay adding salt to pizza dough. In bread making salt is not delayed due to any fear of it killing yeast, it's delayed during the autolyse so that the flour can more easily absorb the water.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: amolapizza on November 02, 2021, 03:10:54 PM
It's been said that pizza is not bread, but I think one can also easily say that pizza is not beer!

There is a reason that baking is sometimes called the white arts!

There are so many different ways to make bread and pizza, mostly always the result depends on methods and ingredients.  Sometimes more sometimes less.  Most of this is steeped in tradition and no one knows 100% in scientific detail what's really going on in the dough.

For instance, I've made bread with 100% biga which was most certainly less coloured than my normal bread.  Strangely enough at the same hydration, salt level, baking temperatures and times, the result was a more moist bread that was nearly raw in the middle..  Probably a longer baking time coupled with some sugar, malt extract, or maybe diastatic malt would have helped, the only way to know, would be to either be taught a recipe and method, or to personally find out where it leads.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2021, 05:16:23 PM
It's been said that pizza is not bread, but I think one can also easily say that pizza is not beer!

No, but the processes of making both of these things are far more similar than you might realize unless you’ve delve deeply into both of them. They’re both all about controlling every aspect of fermentation. They’re both about balancing sweetness and bitterness, and optimizing mouthfeel. And they’re both highly sociable things that are meant to be shared.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 02, 2021, 06:50:42 PM
...What I'm ultimately saying is that although it helps to optimize enzymatic activity in pizza dough so that the yeast can have sufficient fuel to do it's job, the yeast will never eat all of the available carbohydrates anyway, no matter what. I think there's probably an underlying assumption going around that the yeast finishes it's job when there are no more carbohydrates available to eat in the dough, and that, as far as I'm concerned, is simply not true...

Yes, there are plenty of carbohydrates left over, both in the dough and the final product, after fermentation and baking have been completed.  The nutrition label on any baked product bears this out.  Essentially, there is little change in the amount of carbohydrate in the raw materials (flour) compared to the finished product.  But remember that yeast only metabolize simple sugars, not carbohydrates.  Still, the amount of carbohydrates converted into sugar (through enzymatic activity) roughly equates to the amount of damaged starch in the flour.  This is usually around 10%.

Also to be considered is that as fermentation progresses, the dough becomes more acidic, creating an environment which hinders enzymatic activity and therefore the conversion of carbohydrates into simple sugars.  The conventional thinking (which may well be up for debate) is that the longer a dough ferments, there will be fewer residual sugars left for caramelization of the crust.  As noted previously by member wb54885, this is why malt is usually added in the second phase of mixing in doughs made with the "indirect method".


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on November 02, 2021, 10:34:22 PM
And just to delve further into this rabbit hole, there is also a school of thought within the bakery arts which says that adding the yeast and salt together in the formula water at the beginning of the mixing phase will indeed have an effect on yeast fermentation, as well as the properties of the dough and the eventual finished product.

The idea is that the salt exerts osmotic pressure on the yeast cells, killing something on the order of 25%.  The dead yeast cells release glutathione and L-cysteine which are reducing agents which soften the dough.  This increased extensibility might be useful when making pizza.  Additionally, the surviving yeast cells accumulate glycerol as a defense mechanism, to offset the osmotic pressure from the salt.  In turn, it is thought that this glycerol helps in the expansion of the air bubbles in the dough, leading to greater volume in the finished product.

All of this is backed up by ostensibly legitimate scientific studies, but I don't really know what to make of them, I just bake. :)


Rolls
Thank you for that. It may help explain Brians (former) position as he trained under Didier Rosada as a break baker.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on November 02, 2021, 10:46:27 PM
It's been said that pizza is not bread, but I think one can also easily say that pizza is not beer!

There is a reason that baking is sometimes called the white arts!

There are so many different ways to make bread and pizza, mostly always the result depends on methods and ingredients.  Sometimes more sometimes less.  Most of this is steeped in tradition and no one knows 100% in scientific detail what's really going on in the dough.

For instance, I've made bread with 100% biga which was most certainly less coloured than my normal bread.  Strangely enough at the same hydration, salt level, baking temperatures and times, the result was a more moist bread that was nearly raw in the middle..  Probably a longer baking time coupled with some sugar, malt extract, or maybe diastatic malt would have helped, the only way to know, would be to either be taught a recipe and method, or to personally find out where it leads.
Good post. I rarely strike out but I hit a lot of foul balls. Usually, I learn something.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2021, 11:43:50 PM
.  But remember that yeast only metabolize simple sugars, not carbohydrates.

Rolls
You might be technically correct, but I'm not sure. Yes, yeast eat sugars (and not always just simples ones; sucrose is actually a disaccharide), but carbohydrates are composed mostly of sugars of one kind or another. So I'm not convinced that it's entirely accurate to say that yeast can't eat carbohydrates when they eat most of what's found in them. But again, you might be right. I'm hardly an expert on this subject.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 03, 2021, 07:09:23 AM
You might be technically correct, but I'm not sure. Yes, yeast eat sugars (and not always just simples ones; sucrose is actually a disaccharide), but carbohydrates are composed mostly of sugars of one kind or another. So I'm not convinced that it's entirely accurate to say that yeast can't eat carbohydrates when they eat most of what's found in them. But again, you might be right. I'm hardly an expert on this subject.

Rolls is correct, yeast can't eat carbohydrates. Starch, carbs, are converted to sugars by amylase enzymes which can then be consumed by yeast.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 03, 2021, 09:31:55 AM
I think part of the confusion stems from the fact that some the so-called "fermentable sugars" or "free sugars" that are naturally occurring in the flour must first be converted into glucose (a monosaccharide) via enzymatic activity before they can be metabolized by the yeast.  Some of these enzymes are present in the flour and others, notably maltase and yeast invertase,  are inherent in the yeast.  Others still, can be added externally to the flour by the miller or the baker.

However, the majority of the yeast's sustenance derives from the conversion of damaged starch in the flour (through the enzymatic activity of the alpha and beta amylases) into dextrins and then maltose, which is further broken down into glucose by the maltase enzyme in the yeast itself.

It's all very confusing to say the least. :)


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2021, 10:21:15 AM
Rolls is correct, yeast can't eat carbohydrates. Starch, carbs, are converted to sugars by amylase enzymes which can then be consumed by yeast.
Yeah, that must be correct. I just have a hard time picturing in my mind how yeast can eat most of what's in carbohydrates, but not actually eat the carbohydrates. It just doesn't add up to me. But whatever. It doesn't have to make sense to me to make sense to somebody else. I do, however, still feel that it's accurate to say that the yeast's food source comes from carbohydrates, whether it can eat them directly or not.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: scott r on November 03, 2021, 10:55:46 AM
do any mods think we could split off this topic?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 03, 2021, 11:04:41 AM
I just have a hard time picturing in my mind how yeast can eat most of what's in carbohydrates, but not actually eat the carbohydrates. It just doesn't add up to me.

Think of the carbohydrates as crude oil and the simple sugars as refined petroleum.  If you were to put crude oil into your gas tank, there would be no internal combustion in the engine.  The crude oil has to be refined into a usable product, such as gasoline or diesel, in order to run the engine.  Likewise, the carbohydrates in a dough need to be broken down into simpler forms in order for yeast fermentation to take place.

Btw, there was an excellent post recently on yeast fermentation by member drainaps at reply #3 here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=71766.0


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2021, 11:24:15 AM
do any mods think we could split off this topic?
Scott,

I looked into that possibility when you first commented on this matter, but concluded that it was not possible because several posts linked the Mama's Too topic and the malt topic. Carving up threads and recombining posts into separate threads is perhaps the most difficult operation for Moderators to conduct. One alternative is for the member who started the thread to start a new thread. He can use his original post to do that. Another approach is to split off the original opening post and maybe some of the early posts and go from there.

Peter
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Rolls on November 03, 2021, 11:44:05 AM
Apologies to everyone, especially the OP, for going off-topic. :-[


Rolls
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2021, 12:06:38 PM
Think of the carbohydrates as crude oil and the simple sugars as refined petroleum.  If you were to put crude oil into your gas tank, there would be no internal combustion in the engine.  The crude oil has to be refined into a usable product, such as gasoline or diesel, in order to run the engine.  Likewise, the carbohydrates in a dough need to be broken down into simpler forms in order for yeast fermentation to take place.

Btw, there was an excellent post recently on yeast fermentation by member drainaps at reply #3 here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=71766.0


Rolls
I know what you mean about the crude oil metaphor. That's pretty much how I think of it. I just think it sounds wrong to say that the carbohydrates aren't the food source for the yeast. The yeast's food is coming from the carbohydrates indirectly, but it's still coming from them, one way or another. But I don't want to keep repeating myself. That post looks quite informative, and I've got it opened up in a separate tab to read it later. Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 03, 2021, 12:40:56 PM
do any mods think we could split off this topic?

I’m hoping to start a reverse-engineering thread focused on techniques, tools and recipes soon, hope you’ll join me!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2021, 02:45:48 PM
do any mods think we could split off this topic?
That doesn't sound like a bad idea, but there's nothing stopping anybody from getting the discussion back to the main topic. I think we could all agree that the main 'hot topic' posts seem to come mostly from either the NY style pizza section or the general pizza making section anyway, so I think this thread is where it will get the most attention and keep relevant input coming in, even if it doesn't quite address the original topic. It seems to me that sometimes the most informative and interesting discussion threads happen someplace in the forum that isn't quite where they should be, for better or worse.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 03, 2021, 07:25:13 PM
This is the book if you really want to know how it all works. https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Science-Chemistry-Craft-Making/dp/097780688X/ref=asc_df_097780688X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=533430572374&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14335303647709186468&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016989&hvtargid=pla-1424166108947&psc=1
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2021, 07:50:15 PM
This is the book if you really want to know how it all works. https://www.amazon.com/Bread-Science-Chemistry-Craft-Making/dp/097780688X/ref=asc_df_097780688X/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=533430572374&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14335303647709186468&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9016989&hvtargid=pla-1424166108947&psc=1
Thanks. I just put it on my amazon shopping and wish lists. But is there anything in the book pertaining specifically to pizza dough?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 03, 2021, 09:27:56 PM
Thanks. I just put it on my amazon shopping and wish lists. But is there anything in the book pertaining specifically to pizza dough?

The science is identical whether it's pizza dough or bread dough.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2021, 09:48:20 PM
The science is identical whether it's pizza dough or bread dough.
Right, of course the science is. I just wondered if there are any special processes and techniques for pizza dough that the book outlines.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 03, 2021, 10:33:06 PM
Right, of course the science is. I just wondered if there are any special processes and techniques for pizza dough that the book outlines.

No, not at all. Only the science...
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 03, 2021, 11:46:37 PM
Wish I was eating a Mama's Too slice while I'm reading about science >:D :-D
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: HansB on November 04, 2021, 08:55:23 AM
Wish I was eating a Mama's Too slice while I'm reading about science >:D :-D

^^^  It's not that complicated!  :-D
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 04, 2021, 10:37:05 AM
Lol...I just want the slice... As far as the science, what I'm getting here is that my oil, I should be switching to crude oil, right? >:D :-D
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jkb on November 04, 2021, 10:52:43 AM
As far as the science, what I'm getting here is that my oil, I should be switching to crude oil, right? >:D :-D


It sounds like a good idea, but trust me, don't do it.  My house stunk for the better part of a year.  In fact, it was longer that.  If I went away for the weekend, the olfactory fatigue would subside and I'd smell it again.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 04, 2021, 10:58:42 AM
Lol...I just want the slice... As far as the science, what I'm getting here is that my oil, I should be switching to crude oil, right? >:D :-D

If you delay adding it, the results may surprise you. I delayed adding oil to my 1990 Honda Accord for about 22,000 miles in college, and the engine successfully converted all of that internal combustion into a massive mechanic’s bill.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jkb on November 04, 2021, 02:41:43 PM
If you delay adding it, the results may surprise you. I delayed adding oil to my 1990 Honda Accord for about 22,000 miles in college, and the engine successfully converted all of that internal combustion into a massive mechanic’s bill.

I commuted 500 mi/week in a beater Civic.  For years, I'd fill it up when it ran dry.  85 mph on the highway on the way home and plenty of redline and drifting when I got to the twisties.  It was still averaging 42 mpg when I retired. 
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: RHawthorne on November 04, 2021, 10:15:13 PM
Looks like the whole idea of getting this discussion back on track is shot to hell at this point. We might as will be talking about making pizza on the moon. Oh well. It’s all in good fun.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jpitkoff on November 05, 2021, 09:09:17 AM
Frank was adamant about a delayed salt addition when talking dough with the group on Chau's tour.

Does delayed salt addition just mean after autolyse or do you mean even later than that?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on November 05, 2021, 09:32:10 AM
Does delayed salt addition just mean after autolyse or do you mean even later than that?
I believe Frank meant adding salt in the very final stage of the mixing. So enough mixing time left for the salt to be fully incorporated, but the last step prior to bulk fermentation or just balling the dough.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: jpitkoff on November 05, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
What sort of effect does that have on the dough?
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on November 05, 2021, 09:01:31 PM
People with a better handle on all the dough techniques than me may chime in, but I believe delaying the salt gives the yeast a head start so it impacts fermentation. I think it also strengthens the gluten so the dough will feel different after the delayed addition of the salt.

Earlier today on the Mama's Too Instagram, there was a spiral mixer withe the caption "I wish I had one of those," so it doesn't sound like a spiral mixer is being used.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: foreplease on November 05, 2021, 09:50:30 PM
What sort of effect does that have on the dough?


People with a better handle on all the dough techniques than me may chime in, but I believe delaying the salt gives the yeast a head start so it impacts fermentation. I think it also strengthens the gluten so the dough will feel different after the delayed addition of the salt.

Earlier today on the Mama's Too Instagram, there was a spiral mixer withe the caption "I wish I had one of those," so it doesn't sound like a spiral mixer is being used.
In my limited but consistent experience, it immediately tightens the dough up. In RT bulk it relaxes quite a bit. Through 4 stretch and folds it develops a nice strength and feel. Able to be nicely and easily handled is how I would describe it.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 05, 2021, 10:12:21 PM
Earlier today on the Mama's Too Instagram, there was a spiral mixer withe the caption "I wish I had one of those," so it doesn't sound like a spiral mixer is being used.

There’s no Pizzamaster in there either. I wonder if it went to Mamas instead? ???
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on November 05, 2021, 11:09:20 PM
There’s no Pizzamaster in there either. I wonder if it went to Mamas instead? ???
I wonder what they did with it. They bought one. It was on their Instagram story that they had one coming. Found the original post from the pizzamaster_mpm Instagram account on August 20th. They're loading it onto a truck.

But more importantly, what did you get and where are the pictures!!!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 05, 2021, 11:23:25 PM
Oh I see! Weird, it says “for events”

Do you think they just have it in storage somewhere and they truck it out as needed? Heck of a mobile oven setup!
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 05, 2021, 11:38:44 PM
The round house slice was killer. I went back for upside down and vodka squares, and those were disappointing this time. Gummy and soft, heavy, lacking the shatter crust on the bottom and the lightness inside—just a miss on the ratios and the bake. I also don’t remember having cheese racing stripes on the upside down square last time, I don’t know if it’s a new move or whoever was topping them just went too heavy on everything.

With a heavy heart I tossed the squares after a few bites of each. I’d just come from Suprema and was on my way to Patsy’s, so the house slice was satisfaction enough :)
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 05, 2021, 11:42:13 PM
Here’s the upside down square I got in May this year for comparison.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on November 06, 2021, 08:36:01 AM
That's too bad you had a bad square. One of these days I'll get back there.

That's quite an events only oven. Here's a screen shot of the post I saw. Just says the oven is going to Mama's Too and I assumed an oven like that would be in full time use.

My apologies for the misinformation everyone.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: wb54885 on November 08, 2021, 10:00:12 AM
If they can afford a Pizzamaster for special events, surely a spiral mixer wouldn’t break the bank..? Well, whatever works! I hope to see them doing a lot of events in the coming months to put that PM to work. It’d be interesting to see if they end up preferring one type of oven over another for their style.

The squares did bum me out for a while that day, because I had a lot of energy from this thread getting my hopes up. But I ended up remembering it’s actually helpful to see a place that good miss the mark a little sometimes. It’s a risky move not to parbake a dough that wet with so much on top of it. And it turns out, they’re human after all, and sometimes the elements aren’t all lined up just right. It’ll help me pay attention trying to replicate it at home.
Title: Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
Post by: Jon in Albany on November 08, 2021, 11:19:29 AM
I wonder if the spiral mixer is a power thing. A lot of those big spirals are 3 phase. Some planetary are, but I think you can still get a big planetary that is 240. Purely speculation. They're used and at auction, but you can get a big, 3 phase spiral mixer for under $5000. Not that I've ever looked at stuff like that...

Also wondering if the off slices is because Frank is away. His instagram looks like he's in Italy.