par baked vs straight baked?

[Andrew t]

Detriot is not my normal thing but I'm looking at adding to my rotation. Seems like there is a split between 'old school' bake it all the way and par bake, cool, top and finish.

Am I correct that all the classic places- Buddy's Shields's, etc do straight bake? It seems like all the Insta-famous new school places do a par bake.

Other than work flow and logistics what is difference in the finished pizza? Can you even tell?

I plan on doing a par bake b/c of logistics and work flow but want to have a better understanding of the tradition, expected results, and reasoning behind why there is this split.

thank you,
Andrew

[Pizza_Not_War]

I found that if you have the right dough and quantity, with the right pan then straight bake works great. If some of the variables are off or work flow of a commercial operation demands it then par bake is just fine. I'm mostly referring to Sicilian or similar. Detroit isn't beloved by my audience. 

[jgeibel]

I’m about to do some experiments myself on the subject. My one thought is that the key feature of these pies is the dark caramelized cheese crust, so it seems like a straight bake would give far more cook time with the cheese in the pan to allow this to develop fully. I’ve cooked a lot of Sicilians and always par bake, but the cheese crust isn’t a feature of that so that seems the way to go for that style. I’m going to try cooking both ways and see what I find.   

[PizzaGarage]

I’m about to do some experiments myself on the subject. My one thought is that the key feature of these pies is the dark caramelized cheese crust, so it seems like a straight bake would give far more cook time with the cheese in the pan to allow this to develop fully. I’ve cooked a lot of Sicilians and always par bake, but the cheese crust isn’t a feature of that so that seems the way to go for that style. I’m going to try cooking both ways and see what I find.

Are there any updates on the two different way - single or double bake?

[oliveview]

Firstly, I am the LAST person here on the forum, to consider an authority on these subjects.
Secondly, I don't have ANY experience par-baking my Detroit-style / pan pizzas.
That being said, my results with straight baking have always seemed more than adequate.
Without getting totally into the weeds, my basic bake consists of these key dynamics:

Gas oven at 500º
Stone on bottom rack.
Other rack second from top.
Fully dressed pan pizza starts on stone for ten-minutes.
Move to upper rack (rotating 180º) and let go for about eight to ten more minutes.

The first half of the bake, on the stone, seems to be the perfect amount to create maximum spring, and start the browning / frying of the crust bottom.
That second half of the bake, towards the top, seems to also promote such good browning of the toppings, that I rarely even need to flip on the broiler. Additionally, being off the stone for the later half also prevents the crust from burning, or getting too hard.

P.S. I always use cheapo Chicago Metallic "aluminized" steel pans.

[Andrew t]

UPDATE-
I've settled on doing the par bake.

The results are both solid.

I've been baking 8-10 at a time for my day job once a week to serve by the slice. I did straight one week and par baked another. The variation between pies in the same batch was as much as between the batches. 

The biggest difference was is managing the work flow.

I could see in a professional setting straight bake being prefered if that was the primary focus of the operation. Way fewer steps, less storage requiremnts, simpler training, less critical points for error.  The same could be said for baking at home.

Parbaking has so many advantages for my operations/enviroment. Both in my day job in a cafe that only serves pizza occasionally and my side hustle moblie pizza operation.

In that enviroment the added steps provide several different places to 'park' the process and work it on a schedgule that fits my needs. It is also possible to change the timeline in process if needed.

I settled on the John A. method for Sicilan. 4-5 day CF, pan, proof (8-12 hours), cook, cool and freeze. then top and finish as needed.
 
For my work flow the advantages of par baking have proven to be huge.

I can make the dough when it suits. Cold feremnt it 3-5 days, pulling to rise and par bake when it works. I can retard the rising panned dough if need be overnight and finsh the rise and bake the next day. Once baked, cooled and frozen it can be fininshed when ready.

It feels like cheating but it works.

Andrew

[killerasp]

I settled on the John A. method for Sicilan. 4-5 day CF, pan, proof (8-12 hours), cook, cool and freeze. then top and finish as needed.

Are you parbaking like 50% of the way? till the top is brown just before it browns?

[john_k]

How are you packaging the parbaked dough to freeze?

[Andrew t]

To answer the questions-

I do 475 in a convection oven with low fan, 8 minutes. very lightly browned.

Yes, I wrap with film to freeze.

Anyone interested in John A.'s process can find it explained in detail on Pizza City podcast and there is a PQM video that covers quite a bit of it as well. He uses a 62% hydration rate. I've teted it side by side with my standard 70% and Craigs 4 hour teglia 85%. They all work well and taste great. The 62% for me is best but I'm going to stick with my standard 70% so I can do my Pala style or pan with one dough.

I'm really interested how places like Metro and Good Pie are able to pull off 3-5 differnt styles with world class results from one formula by adapting the feremetation and handling. Both places have shared lots of informaiton. I focus on the process developemnt for my formula and enviroment; not really trying to figure out their exact formula.

One key learning I'm working on understanding/working with more is tempature. I need to final proof at higher temps to move the final rise along faster to fit my timelines. 12-16 hour final rises don't work for me. I think I've over focused on time and yeast % and not considered changing the temps from standard 37ish for CF and 70ish for room temp. 

     
More will be revaled.

Andrew

[Cooking_Succs]

Howdy,

I've done some side-by-side tests on doing the par bake vs straight bake with as identical of dough as can be. There hasn't been a hugely noticeable difference in results between the two. Currently being in a Detroit style spot with some amount of volume we've opted to par bake. This allows orders to come out a bit faster along with allowing us to have a greater amount of pizza's on hand than our pans would normally allow and takes away some of the working out logistics of proofing during service.

D3bsie.

[Andrew t]

Update-
I've changed my parbake process a little.

I've added cheddar to the rim before par bake and shortened the par bake to 6-7 minutes at 450. Then cover right out of the oven. I've found this keeps the crumb softer, moister, and tighter. Picked it up from an interview with Sean Randazo and Jeff Smokivitch.

I feel like it eats better, somehow the best parts of straight baked without the parts I see as defects. It also makes my Sililian and Detriot look and eat like two different things.   

I kept woring to get a straight bake I was happy with. The key for this was chilling proofed dough before topping/baking. Got pointed this way by Emmy squared process. Really helped. For me the results are still different than parbaked and I prefer par baked. So now I know I'm choosing what I like not what I can pull off.

ANdrew
 

[damp1house]

You don't happen to have pictures of the pie do you?  Especially interested in what it looks like after the par bake but before it's finished.

I'm going to start testing out par baking next week.

Thanks!

[Andrew t]

here are some pics before and after with white cheddar in the edges. I've tested white cheddar, jack, and mozzarella. I like jack the best then cheddar, mozzarella burns too dark on the final bake.

[Andrew t]

here are the rest of the pics.

[damp1house]

Super helpful.  Thank you!

[toade]

Update-
I've changed my parbake process a little.

I've added cheddar to the rim before par bake and shortened the par bake to 6-7 minutes at 450. Then cover right out of the oven. I've found this keeps the crumb softer, moister, and tighter. Picked it up from an interview with Sean Randazo and Jeff Smokivitch.

I feel like it eats better, somehow the best parts of straight baked without the parts I see as defects. It also makes my Sililian and Detriot look and eat like two different things.   

I kept woring to get a straight bake I was happy with. The key for this was chilling proofed dough before topping/baking. Got pointed this way by Emmy squared process. Really helped. For me the results are still different than parbaked and I prefer par baked. So now I know I'm choosing what I like not what I can pull off.

ANdrew

Do you leave it in the pan after the parbake?  I've been using Han's gluten free recipe, which calls for parbaking, but have been removing from the pan to cool.  Then regreasing for the final bake.  Curious if you have noticed a difference.

Will also have to try jack on the edges.  I've been using mild cheddar, which doesn't burn... but I think the taste of the crust is a little lacking.

[Andrew t]

yes, I leave it in the pan, covered, and slightly vented (some steam but not a bath) to cool. I think the covering and preserving the moisture keeps the crumb moister, less light, without being gummy or under cooked. When I do Sicilian I pull it and cool on a rack.

Jack- finely grated in now my go to. I can't get white cheddar affordable in bulk. The yellow cheddar works fine and doesn't over brown but I prefer the cleaner flavor of jack. Now that I sell them at my pop ups I've taken to calling the Sactown Square Pan Pizza. I feel like that way if guests know Detroit they ask about it, if not I can just sell it as a great pan pizza with caramelized cheese crust.

last point- freezing after par-bake is a John Arena method that really improves the lightness. Not 100% needed but it is does eat lighter and really makes the production for my pop up much simpler.

[Pizza_Not_War]

Is it explained why freezing makes it lighter?

[HansB]

Do you leave it in the pan after the parbake?  I've been using Han's gluten free recipe, which calls for parbaking, but have been removing from the pan to cool.  Then regreasing for the final bake.  Curious if you have noticed a difference.

Will also have to try jack on the edges.  I've been using mild cheddar, which doesn't burn... but I think the taste of the crust is a little lacking.

I remove the GF par bakes from the pan immediately and place on a screen so the bottom does not get soggy. I then vacuum pack and freeze some as I usually make a few at a time.

[Andrew t]

Is it explained why freezing makes it lighter?

John Arena's claim is that he learned the lesson from making toast with frozen bread. I can't recall where I saw it but someone did test it by weighing before and after freezing.

I suppose it would have to do with the moisture being removed as it cools. The air in freezer is dryer that the food in it. As the food cools water exits the food into the air. Same thing that happens with freeze drying. It also is what I've observed by trying it.

that said...I don't need to know how a watch works to tell the time.