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Author Topic: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe  (Read 2411 times)

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2021, 02:11:11 PM »
Iím not bored, Iím curious  :D

Still sounds like you have to add water to get malted barley to make maltose. Is that inaccurate? Are you counting the moisture present in AT as water that begins the process, or saying the maltose itself already exists in malted barley, maybe just in small amounts?

Feel free to point me to a good source if itís too much for this thread.

As for the OP and guessing about Mamas TOO dough, based on clues from Scott and Franco, I would try a 14+% protein flour at 68-70% H2O with 5% oil and 3% salt and see how it works. The workflow is going to be important too, maybe bulk with stretch and folds for a day or two before balling and proofing. Scottís right to point to them having the proof down pat. Then itís soft hands to stretch and preserve all that air. .35-.4% IDY for 2- day ferment...? Let us know if you try it, Iím not sure thereís a Mamas TOO clone thread yet!

Do we know what kind of mixer they use?
Yes, you have to add water to extract the maltose that's chemically locked up inside the grains. It's a topic that takes some time to understand, but you don't really have to delve too deep to get the basic ideas. Here's a link to a page that explains basic all-grain homebrewing, if you want to take a look: https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/tutorials/all-grain-batch-sparge-homebrewing/all-grain-batch-sparge-homebrewing-video-series/ I haven't actually watched the videos myself, but this is a good authoritative source.
As far as the Mama's Too dough is concerned, I'm really not a high hydration guy myself, but I still find their pizza intriguing. I've had my best pizza doughs when I've worked in the 58% to 62% range, but I do occasionally experiment in the higher range when I get the urge.
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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2021, 03:23:14 PM »
Thanks for the info and education. Personally, I wouldn't consider a malted barley that contains natural substances that chemically break down into maltose which is a form of naturally occuring sugar to be synonymous with "sugar in the flour." In the same way, one could say they don't put sugar in their sauce, although tomatoes would have some naturally occurring sugars. Nonetheless, happy to learn a new thing. Now I know why my sourdough starter likes flours with malted barley so much.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2021, 03:30:44 PM »
I'm going to be a broken record chiming in with this whenever Mama's Too comes up, but Frank was adamant about a delayed salt addition when talking dough with the group on Chau's tour.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2021, 03:40:38 PM »
On the malt issue, in the context of dough making, I have relied on the definition for DIASTATIC MALT in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2021, 10:36:46 PM »
Thanks for the info and education. Personally, I wouldn't consider a malted barley that contains natural substances that chemically break down into maltose which is a form of naturally occuring sugar to be synonymous with "sugar in the flour." In the same way, one could say they don't put sugar in their sauce, although tomatoes would have some naturally occurring sugars. Nonetheless, happy to learn a new thing. Now I know why my sourdough starter likes flours with malted barley so much.
I'm not sure if you're understanding what I was saying. The maltose doesn't develop in the dough; the barley malt extract is maltose already. It's a form of sugar, no question about it, and it's already present in the flour before any water is added or any kind of chemical reaction is activated. It just happens to have an enzyme in it that helps the yeast digest the other carbohydrates present in the flour.
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2021, 08:17:25 AM »
I think I might see the confusion here:  In the 2nd video you linked to above, thereís an explicit acknowledgement that barley malt extract has already undergone the process of becoming sugar, while malted grain by itself still needs the presence of water to begin performing its enzymatic magic of making maltose out of starch, like you said. These are two different substances, diastatic and non-diastatic malt. Diastatic malt is usually what goes into bags of flour, and it is not yet sugar (although diastatic malt CAN be packaged as a blend of malted grain, flour, and added sugar when the goal is to keep enzymatic activity of the product very low and controlled). Non-diastatic malt, on the other hand, is absolutely sugar already, but thatís not what weíre looking at adding to All Trumps. Is it possible youíre referring to these substances interchangeably?

Thanks for the glossary link Peter. Hope Iíve gotten it mostly right.

Jon, I found this pic of a Pizzamaster in Central Park (!!) and laughed out loud. Thatís an expensive toy to take jogging!! Wonder if it made its way to the shop after this event?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2RbcJlqvc/
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 08:19:13 AM by wb54885 »
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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2021, 09:08:28 AM »
You'll have to report back. It's a small shop. I'm not sure how that pizzamaster oven fits without taking out another oven. Maybe they have more space downstairs?

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2021, 09:47:10 AM »
I think I might see the confusion here:  In the 2nd video you linked to above, thereís an explicit acknowledgement that barley malt extract has already undergone the process of becoming sugar, while malted grain by itself still needs the presence of water to begin performing its enzymatic magic of making maltose out of starch, like you said. These are two different substances, diastatic and non-diastatic malt. Diastatic malt is usually what goes into bags of flour, and it is not yet sugar (although diastatic malt CAN be packaged as a blend of malted grain, flour, and added sugar when the goal is to keep enzymatic activity of the product very low and controlled). Non-diastatic malt, on the other hand, is absolutely sugar already, but thatís not what weíre looking at adding to All Trumps. Is it possible youíre referring to these substances interchangeably?

Thanks for the glossary link Peter. Hope Iíve gotten it mostly right.

Jon, I found this pic of a Pizzamaster in Central Park (!!) and laughed out loud. Thatís an expensive toy to take jogging!! Wonder if it made its way to the shop after this event?
https://www.instagram.com/p/CS2RbcJlqvc/
Okay, here's the first sentence of the definition of diastatic barley malt from the glossary: "A barley malt commonly used in flours to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast during fermentation and to increase the residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking to promote increased crust browning." It's the "for use as food for the yeast during fermentation" part I'm specifically referring to. This is reinforcing what i was saying before. It acts as food for the yeast because it is maltose, i.e. malt sugar. It already is malt sugar; it's not waiting to be converted. The only confusion is the diastatic vs. non-diastatic part. Non-diastatic malt extract does not have any enzymes present because they've already been used in the processing of extracting the maltose from the grain, but it's still maltose. Diastatic malt extract is maltose that has had some enzyme added back in. They're both forms of maltose (malt sugar), but one has enzymes in it to help extract more usable carbohydrates from flour for yeast to consume. The whole reason both products are called "malt extract" is because they're both maltose that's been extracted from grains. Hopefully that helps clear thing up.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 10:07:13 AM by RHawthorne »
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Offline HansB

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2021, 10:01:10 AM »
"to increase the extraction of sugars from the flours for use as food for the yeast"

This.

Malt has amylase enzymes that convert starch in the flour into maltose...
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2021, 10:15:43 AM »
This.

Malt has amylase enzymes that convert starch in the flour into maltose...
Only diastatic malt extract does. Non-diastatic malt does not have any enzymes left in it after the process of extracting the maltose from the malted grain. But no matter what, malt extract, whether it's diastatic or non-diastatic is maltose; no question about it. That's the whole reason it's called "malt extract". The very name of the product tells you that it's malt sugar (maltose) that's been extracted from grains. I'm not sure if you were contradicting me or agreeing with me, so I'm sorry if I sound a bit pedantic. I'm not trying to.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 10:18:17 AM by RHawthorne »
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2021, 10:33:01 AM »
 At the risk of taking this thread way off-track, I feel it's necessary to help clarify something that I brought up myself. When you brew beer either at home (which I did for a good 17 years) or professionally, the process revolves mostly around the usage of maltose (malt extract). You either obtain it yourself by steeping grains in water at specified temps for certain staggered durations of time (all-grain brewing); or you just buy malt extract in the form of powder or syrup. You use this second class of product to add malt sugar to your wort (unfermented beer), in order to bring the wort up to the desired OG (original gravity- the concentration of sugar in the wort needed to obtain the desired alcohol content in the finished beer). That's how it works. I don't want to go on and on, but let me just summarize that malt extract is malt sugar- period, end of story. There is an enzyme added back into diastatic malt extract, but it's still maltose. There is no such thing as malt extract that does not consist almost entirely of maltose; or at least there isn't any such thing available in the retail world as far as I know. And even if there were, that's definitely not what we're using when we're using malt extract in pizza dough, or would ever want to use. Trust me on this one, guys. Here's a good starting point to understand what I'm talking about: https://food.briess.com/capabilities/extraction-drying/
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2021, 01:12:32 PM »
Another term from the forum's Pizza Glossary may help. It is the one for ALPHA-AMYLASE, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

And here is a post on the subject that quotes the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=609.msg5969;topicseen#msg5969

Peter

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2021, 02:03:05 PM »
Another term from the forum's Pizza Glossary may help. It is the one for ALPHA-AMYLASE, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

And here is a post on the subject that quotes the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=609.msg5969;topicseen#msg5969

Peter
Good information. Another important piece of information that I think is probably often forgotten or largely unknown is that wheat flour itself already contains naturally occuring enzymes which are activated when mixed with water. This is why flours such "00" that contain no added sugar of any kind are still fermentable even if no sugar is added in the dough mixture, and it also helps explain why Neapolitan pizza crust has such a completely different sort of crumb structure than any other type of crust. The dough mixture "self converts" from the enzymatic action activated by water, over time. No extra sugar or enzymes have to be added to flour to produce fermentation when water and yeast is mixed with flour; it just helps the process along.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 02:11:55 PM by RHawthorne »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2021, 05:35:03 PM »
Randy,

I believe what you have in mind with respect to natural sugars in flour is discussed under Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at:

https://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm

Peter

Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2021, 05:36:21 PM »
Peter,

That response you quoted from Tom Lehman makes it sound like non-diastatic malt (sugar) is what is most often added to flour after milling, but is that the case? There are many other instances where he clearly (I think!) states that diastatic malt is what is added. Is it both?

This thread attempts to unravel the confusing terminology used between brewers and bakersí communities regarding malt, and seems to end with Tom saying that itís enzymatically active flour that millers mean by ďbarley malt,Ē not ďextractĒ or enzymatically inert maltose:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64942.0

If you could clarify on this point, thatíd be a big help! If millers are just adding maltose to flour then this conversation can end, but thatís never been my impression...

RHawthorne, there seems to be a difference between diastatic malt extract and diastatic malt flour, with the former being as you describe and the latter being otherwise. Is it possible weíre still talking about different substances?
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2021, 10:11:14 PM »


RHawthorne, there seems to be a difference between diastatic malt extract and diastatic malt flour, with the former being as you describe and the latter being otherwise. Is it possible weíre still talking about different substances?
Yes, those are definitely different things. I only ever heard about diastatic malt flour for the first time earlier today, on this webpage https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/  I've definitely never used it and can't say anything useful about it.
 I also noticed that confusing statement from Tom Lehman about non-diastatic malt extract being added to flour. But what has always confused me is why anybody thinks they need to buy diastatic malt extract anyway, when it's clearly already in almost every kind of flour that's available in the retail world besides "00" flour. I can see no real need to increase the enzyme activity catalyzed in the fermentation process. Once you add water and yeast, and you're using flour that's got diastatic malt extract in it, why would you ever think that's not good enough? Call me stupid, but I just don't get it. The cynical side of me can't help wondering if companies that sell the stuff are just preying on people who are convinced that they're doing something wrong if they're not using it, which is absolutely not the case as far as I'm concerned.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2021, 10:32:46 AM »
Doug and Randy,

I believe that what Tom was trying to say in the post I cited is that non-diastatic malt not be added to flours at the facilities of millers, but rather, as a form of sugar, be used by end users to make products that call for or benefit from sugars. For example, those end products could include pizza dough (Tom suggests reducing or eliminating any sugar in recipes), bread dough, bagels, pastries, and a wide range of desserts (including cakes and cookies). I should further note that to make non-diastatic malt, the alpha-amylase enzyme is inactivated from its diastatic state by using higher processing temperatures.

Maybe this further post by Tom offers some clarification:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58972.msg591738#msg591738

In my own case, I tried to note the attributes of non-diastatic malt in the definition of the term NON-DIASTATIC MALT in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_n

With respect to diastatic malt, that is what is used in flours produced by millers. It is because of the alpha-amylase enzyme. In order to confirm that use, several years ago I sent an email to Tim Huff at General Mills. I had had several exchanges with him over the years and he always responded in a helpful matter In my email, I asked Tim if their barley malt was a diastatic malt. His reply was yes, as can be seen in the post at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388#msg106388

This subject can be very confusing and especially so since there are so many different forms and versions produced by companies such as Briess and Malt Products Corporation. But their websites offer a lot of information on their products and how they make them. In my own case, I found the following article of value and included it in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658

This thread may also be interesting in that I came up with a dough formulation using a non-diastatic barley malt syrup:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11825.msg109805#msg109805

And a couple other members came up with dough formulations using a non-diastatic malt powder:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg671128;topicseen#msg671128

Reply 996 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg385427#msg385427

Peter

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2021, 11:44:49 AM »

With respect to diastatic malt, that is what is used in flours produced by millers. It is because of the alpha-amylase enzyme. In order to confirm that use, several years ago I sent an email to Tim Huff at General Mills. I had had several exchanges with him over the years and he always responded in a helpful matter In my email, I asked Tim if their barley malt was a diastatic malt. His reply was yes, as can be seen in the post at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388#msg106388



This thread may also be interesting in that I came up with a dough formulation using a non-diastatic barley malt syrup:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11825.msg109805#msg109805

And a couple other members came up with dough formulations using a non-diastatic malt powder:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12446.msg671128;topicseen#msg671128

Reply 996 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg385427#msg385427

Peter
Thanks for the input, but again I ask the question: why would anybody feel the need to obtain diastatic malt extract separately, when we know that it's already in practically every flour on the market that we might use for pizza dough besides "00"? Why does anybody think that what's in the flour already isn't sufficient?
And if anybody wants non-diastatic malt extract, it's easy enough to buy, so why would anybody undertake the task of making it themselves? I can respect the DIY ambition, I guess, but I can't see how such a product could possibly equal the quality of something that's ready-made by a company that does it professionally, and there's no way there would be any cost savings. I'm more than a little confused on both of these points.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2021, 12:18:24 PM »
I hope we can get this topic back on track (I LOVE MAMAS TOO!!) but I did want to point out....

We have had quite a few well respected members that make exceptional pizza find the need to add a little more diastatic malt than what comes in typical American flours already.  As you know European flours are not typically treated with enzymes or diastatic malt, but there are quite a few domestic flours that are not either.  I have found that most organic flours, and many lower protein flours are not treated.   Additional malt or enzymes is not something I typically need, as I have strong ovens, but for people with home ovens that aren't particularly powerful, or for recipes that require a lower baking temp, adding in some diastatic malt can do wonders.   I know Hans uses diastatic malt along with a flour with enzymes/diastatic malt from the factory in his wonderful Detroit style recipe that he has been kind enough to share with the forum.  That recipe has many fans here (including myself). 

Lately I have been finding the addition of diastatic malt useful for doughs that use preferments in large quantities, as they can often produce pizzas that lack the coloration of a direct dough.  The use of diastatic malt in these situations gives you the ability to have lots of flavor from extended fermentation with the amount of browning and char that you normally find with a direct dough.  Often times with these strongly fermented doughs the pizza can turn out pale.

I agree that its easy to find malted/enzyme enriched flours here in the USA, and for many purposes these flours have a good amount of enrichment.

If your not baking with high temp ovens you might want to play around with adding some extra non diastatic malt to your favorite flour and see how you like what it does.  To me it seems to do more than just add color, and there may be a textural advantage as well.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 12:23:14 PM by scott r »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2021, 01:36:00 PM »
Thanks for the input, but again I ask the question: why would anybody feel the need to obtain diastatic malt extract separately, when we know that it's already in practically every flour on the market that we might use for pizza dough besides "00"? Why does anybody think that what's in the flour already isn't sufficient?
And if anybody wants non-diastatic malt extract, it's easy enough to buy, so why would anybody undertake the task of making it themselves? I can respect the DIY ambition, I guess, but I can't see how such a product could possibly equal the quality of something that's ready-made by a company that does it professionally, and there's no way there would be any cost savings. I'm more than a little confused on both of these points.
Randy,

To add to what scott r said, you might want to take a look at the following post that has links to a lot of the work that Tony Gemignani has done and where he adds diastatic malt to his flours that already contain diastatic malt:

Reply 45 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg347053#msg347053

Tony G likes to use low diastatic malt powder but the heavy duty stuff with high Lintner degrees numbers can also be used but in less quantity.

As for the non-diastatic malt, I am not aware of any member on this forum who has made such a product from scratch. When I played around with the liquid non-diastatic malt, I used an Eden Foods product similar to the one shown at:

https://store.edenfoods.com/barley-malt-syrup-organic/

I also made my own diastatic malt in my own home using this recipe:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070126080004/http://www.radicalfrugality.info/homemade-diastatic-malt.html

Peter

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