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Author Topic: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe  (Read 4281 times)

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Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2021, 01:38:17 PM »
The OP is in for a lot of links when they come back!

I think knowing that the deep color and caramelization of Mamas TOO’s crusts comes not from added sugar, but just from oil, hydration, the ferment and the bake, is pretty neat. Does anyone from the 2018 tour remember seeing a mixer?

At that time Franco was saying 70% hydration and 10% oil. Now it sounds like the oil has come down and the video Matt posted has him saying 74% hydration. I wonder if the water got switched for oil and the effective hydration is still near 80, or if he’s counting oil in that 74%...

I’d like to try making this pizza when I get back from next week’s visit. It should be a blast to work on.

Thanks Peter and Scott for your help and insights
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2021, 02:04:15 PM »
What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."

Matt

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2021, 02:13:18 PM »
This is a great thread!


Scott, that's great information about the browning.vs preferments.I usually do long ferments and steer away from LDM , but maybe a small amount could enhance especially my SD pizzas where the paler crusts can happen

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2021, 03:43:13 PM »
Make sure you watch the video below if you haven't already.



Off the hook! Still doing research here. I know, I know, making changes without an actual bake is not recommended. However, That is the cocky Roadside Pie King way! Smile, (I may live to regret boasting here)
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Offline kori

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2021, 03:45:12 PM »
I know you guys are trying to get back on topic so I apologize now but just wanted to point something out, may help some ppl from purchasing the wrong product.

The words diastatic malt & extract should not be used together. Diastatic malt is just diastatic malt, not an extract. If the word extract is used then it is non-diastatic. You can find products being sold as "malt extract" which makes it confusing to many because it doesn't specify if it's diastatic or non, because it's an extract it is definetly non-diastatic malt. Also, if it's being sold as a liquid/syrup then it will always be non-diastatic.

Here is an old thread from 2006 with a link that simplified the difference for me:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2770.msg23932#msg23932

My apologies again for not keeping on topic, thought this may help.
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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2021, 03:57:47 PM »
Does anyone from the 2018 tour remember seeing a mixer?


This is from memory, and my guess is things have changed....

There was no mixer on the shop level of the space. There's just no room for one. At the time, and again this is an aging memory, I recall Frank saying dough was being mixed at the original Mama's kitchen, that's about a block away from Mama's Too. I think it was a Hobart.

I'd be surprised if that was still true. I do remember getting into a car with Chau and Scott123 right after we left and sitting in the middle of a passionate discussion on hydration, effective hydration and All Trumps. It was basically a "how did Frank do that?" discussion. What a great day that was...

Offline HansB

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2021, 06:16:44 PM »
Frank took me downstairs, I'm quite sure there is a mixer down there.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 06:06:33 PM by HansB »
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2021, 07:36:26 PM »
I hope we can get this topic back on track (I LOVE MAMAS TOO!!) but I did want to point out....

We have had quite a few well respected members that make exceptional pizza find the need to add a little more diastatic malt than what comes in typical American flours already.  As you know European flours are not typically treated with enzymes or diastatic malt, but there are quite a few domestic flours that are not either.  I have found that most organic flours, and many lower protein flours are not treated.   Additional malt or enzymes is not something I typically need, as I have strong ovens, but for people with home ovens that aren't particularly powerful, or for recipes that require a lower baking temp, adding in some diastatic malt can do wonders.   I know Hans uses diastatic malt along with a flour with enzymes/diastatic malt from the factory in his wonderful Detroit style recipe that he has been kind enough to share with the forum.  That recipe has many fans here (including myself). 

Lately I have been finding the addition of diastatic malt useful for doughs that use preferments in large quantities, as they can often produce pizzas that lack the coloration of a direct dough.  The use of diastatic malt in these situations gives you the ability to have lots of flavor from extended fermentation with the amount of browning and char that you normally find with a direct dough.  Often times with these strongly fermented doughs the pizza can turn out pale.

I agree that its easy to find malted/enzyme enriched flours here in the USA, and for many purposes these flours have a good amount of enrichment.

If your not baking with high temp ovens you might want to play around with adding some extra non diastatic malt to your favorite flour and see how you like what it does.  To me it seems to do more than just add color, and there may be a textural advantage as well.
Those are all valid points, and by no means am I suggesting that my expertise or insight with making pizza is greater than anyone else's here because I also happen to have experience making beer, just to get that out of the way. But I still can't help wondering if people who add extra malt extract to their pizza dough are really getting enough enhanced enzymatic activity to make a real difference, or if what they're seeing in their finished crust is just coming from the additional sugar. I'm leaning (strongly) towards the latter conclusion, but I will not try to make any claims of authority on that. Also, if people who use DME are so concerned about enhancing enzymatic activity in their dough, why don't they just buy amylase enzyme directly and use that? The stuff is cheap and easily available, but I've never even once heard anybody in the world of baking (either pizza or bread) say that they use it. But anyway, I have no objection if anybody wants to split this discussion off onto another thread, because yes, we are getting a bit off track from the original topic.
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2021, 07:38:48 PM »
What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."
Yeah, I thought that was a rather long bake time for that temp.
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Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2021, 07:57:22 PM »
I know you guys are trying to get back on topic so I apologize now but just wanted to point something out, may help some ppl from purchasing the wrong product.

The words diastatic malt & extract should not be used together. Diastatic malt is just diastatic malt, not an extract. If the word extract is used then it is non-diastatic. You can find products being sold as "malt extract" which makes it confusing to many because it doesn't specify if it's diastatic or non, because it's an extract it is definetly non-diastatic malt. Also, if it's being sold as a liquid/syrup then it will always be non-diastatic.

Here is an old thread from 2006 with a link that simplified the difference for me:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2770.msg23932#msg23932

My apologies again for not keeping on topic, thought this may help.
Not accurate. Here is but one example https://www.malteurop.com/en/products/liquid-diastatic-malt-extracts

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Offline kori

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2021, 09:34:42 PM »
I SMILE AND WAVE....
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Offline foreplease

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2021, 10:28:37 AM »
I'm going to be a broken record chiming in with this whenever Mama's Too comes up, but Frank was adamant about a delayed salt addition when talking dough with the group on Chau's tour.
That is part of the Apizza Scholls process too. It’s amazing how much and how quickly the dough changes.
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2021, 10:44:02 AM »
Randy, you are literally KILLING ME here :-D

Every mention you make of “malted barley” refers to it as malt EXTRACT, and NONE of the baking-specific sources I can find refers to “malted barley flour” as an EXTRACT (unless it’s to point to a more specific product offered by a malt producer). You have got to stop thinking in that term! It is not what we are talking about!

Malted barley flour is just sprouted grain that has been dried and ground. It is NOT YET SUGAR! It gets added to flour by a miller to achieve a specific value of Falling Number, which is a test of enzymatic activity! You have to make a dough—add water—to get the malted barley flour to begin aiding in the conversion of starch INTO fermentable sugars IN the dough. You have said this yourself! And the sources you’ve shared all refer to EXTRACT being SUGAR because it’s already been put through this process. In baking, the sprouted grain does its “extraction” in the dough. That’s the whole point. If it was just adding maltose, they would say that! So in a sense, “why aren’t they just adding alpha-amylase?” is kind of an insane question because that’s exactly what they’ve been telling you they’re doing, the whole time!

Google “malted barley flour” and see every definitive source, every major miller, every research organization, every hipster blog is saying this same thing. When you find someone eventually talking about “malted barley EXTRACT” you have gotten into a brewing discussion, or come across a very small set of products that may well be what you are trying to talk about, but that are definitively NOT what we mean when we talk about the “malted barley” or “diastatic malt” that is routinely added to flour. The confusion in terms is exactly the issue with this whole discussion, and is why it blows up so much when it comes up, so to make progress we all have to strive to bring as much clarity as possible to our use of these terms.

Now you are suggesting that the very knowledgeable folks here and elsewhere in the pizza world, who have successfully made god-knows-how-many pizzas using additional diastatic malt on top of what millers already add to most commercial flours, refining and tweaking and experimenting and observing its effects over the course of years and careers, are just imagining things, or misunderstanding their tools? Come on, man!

This article Peter posted above is a great resource for seeing not only the differences between these products and tools and their varying/overlapping applications, but also shows how easy it is for professionals to slip into casually referring to different forms of malt as “malt” without differentiating or specifying which form they mean in a given context.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658
I implore you, see that we are NOT talking about malt extract in the context of this conversation—or rather, that only you are, and that that’s why the threat of thread derailing or pedantry keeps looming above us.

I can’t stay on this merry go round of torture any longer, Randy! Please deliver me from its grasp!!
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #53 on: October 31, 2021, 10:53:28 AM »
This is from memory, and my guess is things have changed....

There was no mixer on the shop level of the space. There's just no room for one. At the time, and again this is an aging memory, I recall Frank saying dough was being mixed at the original Mama's kitchen, that's about a block away from Mama's Too. I think it was a Hobart.

I'd be surprised if that was still true. I do remember getting into a car with Chau and Scott123 right after we left and sitting in the middle of a passionate discussion on hydration, effective hydration and All Trumps. It was basically a "how did Frank do that?" discussion. What a great day that was...

If they’re bringing a dough that wet together in a Hobart, the delayed salt would be crucial. I would have guessed they had a spiral from the start. Frank’s tough though 8) I love how they’re ending all their Instagram posts with the word pal now. Chicken parm is back PAL.

What are thoughts on his bake temp (and time)? Below is what he said in the video.

"It's baked at around...I want to say 600....really quick, probably like a 10 minute bake."



That sounds right to me for a very wet dough, to get it as dark as they do. Didn’t he say 20 minutes+ for the squares?

I wonder how much dough they make daily and what the workflow is.
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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #54 on: October 31, 2021, 11:12:13 AM »
Keep in mind I think Mama's Too had only been open a 5 or 6 months when the tour stopped in. So that was before the NYT review and the long lines. There was a buzz about the place, but it was nothing like it is today. I'm sure they make much more dough dough daily now and at least a few things have changed. But not the late salt addition. Frank was passionate about that detail. Not sure it fully translates to a home cook's small batch process, but he definitely felt it impacted his.

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #55 on: October 31, 2021, 11:33:03 AM »
Jon...I'd love some of his pizza now..but the commute is a killer :-D
What I remember is I loved it so much..One bite, we know the rules lol.
It was obvious this was world class stuff


But...it was first stop of a very long day of pizza eating,  and if I had more than a sample, I'd be in trouble later. So I left myself appetite..so I could eat stuff like that powdered sugar disaster later that day
Forgive me. Frank  :-D






Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #56 on: October 31, 2021, 11:54:31 AM »
Jon...I'd love some of his pizza now..but the commute is a killer :-D
What I remember is I loved it so much..One bite, we know the rules lol.
It was obvious this was world class stuff


But...it was first stop of a very long day of pizza eating,  and if I had more than a sample, I'd be in trouble later. So I left myself appetite..so I could eat stuff like that powdered sugar disaster later that day
Forgive me. Frank  :-D
I'm a lot closer than you, and I still haven't revisited Mamas Too. The few times I've been back to the city, there has been other scheduled stuff going on and I just haven't been able to make it back.

Almost made it to PizzaTown last weekend. They happened to be closed to celebrate a wedding on Friday when we drove by and weren't going to open for another hour when we drove by again on Sunday. Bad timing.

Offline wb54885

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2021, 01:30:27 PM »
In the video Matt posted, Frank makes a point to say the dough is proofed at ambient temp. In 2018, Jon noted from the tour that he had said it was cold fermented for 48 hrs. I think that’s a huge part of the lightness of the crust, beyond just the high hydration—I’m guessing after 48 hrs in the fridge, it gets balled and left to rise at room temp. He also dumps his dough ball out of a metal canister which would suggest its been rising at room temp and not in trays in a walk-in. That same-day balling approach always gives me the “eggshell” crust. Another hint for the OP to consider when trying to replicate the lightness and crispness of the round pie.

Also from Jon in 2018 is a note that the cheese is not Grande but that it is from Wisconsin. In the video he again says Wisconsin and calls it aged mozzarella. I wonder what it is? These are not shy flavors. Garlic and olive oil everywhere!

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51896.msg523890#msg523890
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2021, 03:50:07 PM »
Randy, you are literally KILLING ME here :-D

Every mention you make of “malted barley” refers to it as malt EXTRACT, and NONE of the baking-specific sources I can find refers to “malted barley flour” as an EXTRACT (unless it’s to point to a more specific product offered by a malt producer). You have got to stop thinking in that term! It is not what we are talking about!

Malted barley flour is just sprouted grain that has been dried and ground. It is NOT YET SUGAR! It gets added to flour by a miller to achieve a specific value of Falling Number, which is a test of enzymatic activity! You have to make a dough—add water—to get the malted barley flour to begin aiding in the conversion of starch INTO fermentable sugars IN the dough. You have said this yourself! And the sources you’ve shared all refer to EXTRACT being SUGAR because it’s already been put through this process. In baking, the sprouted grain does its “extraction” in the dough. That’s the whole point. If it was just adding maltose, they would say that! So in a sense, “why aren’t they just adding alpha-amylase?” is kind of an insane question because that’s exactly what they’ve been telling you they’re doing, the whole time!

Google “malted barley flour” and see every definitive source, every major miller, every research organization, every hipster blog is saying this same thing. When you find someone eventually talking about “malted barley EXTRACT” you have gotten into a brewing discussion, or come across a very small set of products that may well be what you are trying to talk about, but that are definitively NOT what we mean when we talk about the “malted barley” or “diastatic malt” that is routinely added to flour. The confusion in terms is exactly the issue with this whole discussion, and is why it blows up so much when it comes up, so to make progress we all have to strive to bring as much clarity as possible to our use of these terms.

Now you are suggesting that the very knowledgeable folks here and elsewhere in the pizza world, who have successfully made god-knows-how-many pizzas using additional diastatic malt on top of what millers already add to most commercial flours, refining and tweaking and experimenting and observing its effects over the course of years and careers, are just imagining things, or misunderstanding their tools? Come on, man!

This article Peter posted above is a great resource for seeing not only the differences between these products and tools and their varying/overlapping applications, but also shows how easy it is for professionals to slip into casually referring to different forms of malt as “malt” without differentiating or specifying which form they mean in a given context.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8308.msg71658#msg71658
I implore you, see that we are NOT talking about malt extract in the context of this conversation—or rather, that only you are, and that that’s why the threat of thread derailing or pedantry keeps looming above us.

I can’t stay on this merry go round of torture any longer, Randy! Please deliver me from its grasp!!
Okay, here's a good webpage for you to look at if you still don't think that I'm on the right track: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/ In this article, you will see that it lists malted barley in several forms, including flour- but I never said that I was talking about malted barley flour anyway. Additionally, if you scroll down a little, it tells you clearly that it is definitely the same product used in both brewing and baking. You will also see in this article that the malt extract "feeds the yeast". That, right there, tells you in no uncertain terms that it is definitely a form of sugar, whether it is already sugar before it goes into the dough or it "becomes" sugar after you mix water with it...which brings me to the next point of paramount importance: in order for water to extract maltose from malted barley, it has to be hot- as in a minimum of 132 F- a temp which would kill any yeast in the dough long before any conversion process could take place- not to mention the fact that this process could not possibly take place within a matter of minutes. Both of these points right here render the whole idea of malt extract "becoming" maltose in the dough is completely moot anyway (if we're going to get back to the main topic here, which was whether or not any sugar was added to the dough), because if you're using a flour with malted barley powder in it, you're either adding sugar directly, or you're catalyzing a process which is going to create more sugar in the dough, one way or another.
 And if you don't believe me when I say that malted barley used for brewing or baking are exactly the same thing (disregarding the 'diastatic' designation, which doesn't change the fact that it's malted barley), here's an amazon sales pages for one product designated as 'diastatic malt powder for baking' https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/malt/ in which you will see in the ingredient list 'diastatic barley malt' (the terms 'barley malt' and 'malted barley' are interchangeable and mean exactly the same thing). If that's not enough for you, here's another webpagehttps://www.delightedcooking.com/what-is-barley-malt.htm   that defines barley malt as a 'natural sweetener', and also states that it has a high concentration of maltose.
 I think I've done more than enough to supply a concrete and objective foundation for my end of the discussion. If you don't believe all of this, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to put the burden of proof on you to find a link from any kind of authoritative source anywhere that states that malted barley used for baking is something different than malted barley used for brewing. I'm sorry if you find this discussion "torturous" or "pedantic" on my part, but I've got a combined experience between baking and brewing of at least 26 years, and I hope you can understand if I feel that I have very good reasons for saying the things I'm saying; and I also hope you'll at least recognize that I've been constructing my dialogue with sources other than just my own opinions. I'm not saying this stuff just to hear myself talk, or prove that I'm "right". I'm just trying to help spread useful information.
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Offline HansB

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Re: Looking for Mama's Too house slice dough recipe
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2021, 08:23:49 AM »
That is part of the Apizza Scholls process too. It’s amazing how much and how quickly the dough changes.

Apizza Scholls process: https://youtu.be/PYFBg0vAceA?t=421
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"The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings." -Brian Spangler

"Ultimately, pizza is a variety of condiments on top of bread. If I wanted to evolve, I figured out that I had to understand bread and first make the best bread I possibly could. Only then could my pizza evolve as well." Dan Richer

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