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Author Topic: adding salt too early??  (Read 2974 times)

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Offline HansB

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2021, 01:23:46 PM »
I guess I should have said that the yeast is always multiplying while fermentation is underway. As far as yeast only growing for multiplying for a short time, I've never heard that. My understanding is that it will continue multiplying until it's killed by the heat of the oven. It might go dormant before that if the fermentation is allowed to go on for an extremely long time, and the multiplication process might drop dramatically, but I don't think it stops until the yeast has hit the limit of available sugars that it can digest, which can take quite a while, or until it's killed during baking. Here's a link to an article that I think sums it up pretty well https://www.finecooking.com/article/the-science-of-baking-with-yeast-2

That article is pretty simplistic.

Yeast reproduction relies on available oxygen, not sugars.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2021, 01:29:36 PM »
Another good place to read about yeast is the Yeast Treatise at:

https://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2021, 01:54:10 PM »
That article is pretty simplistic.

Yeast reproduction relies on available oxygen, not sugars.
I don't think that's really true, but I'm open to persuasion if you think you've got a strong argument to bring. You said yourself that it goes into an anaerobic state and continues to do it's job. It wouldn't be able to do it's job without reproducing. Yeast digestion leads to cell multiplication, inevitably.  Besides, in most any fermentation scenario, oxygen is still available well after the dough is initially mixed. You would have to seal up the dough very tightly very shortly after kneading, and put it in a refrigerator to slow down cellular reproduction even more, to have any real impact on yeast cell multiplication in the dough, and even that doesn't stop it. The whole reason cold fermentation is done is to slow down yeast growth and rely less on oxygen, but that doesn't stop it at all; it merely helps control it for a more well formed gluten structure.
Furthermore, the yeast used for baking is the same used for brewing beer, and there's no question that the yeast continues to do it's work and multiply long after the fermentation vessel is tightly sealed, regardless of fermentation. In fact, the process can go on for several weeks, when there's little to no oxygen left in the fermenter at all. The process is even more clearly visible in a glass fermenter with beer. You can pitch your yeast in, seal the lid, and see the yeast growing for a good 3 days afterwards.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 01:55:48 PM by RHawthorne »
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Offline HansB

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2021, 03:38:12 PM »
I don't think that's really true, but I'm open to persuasion if you think you've got a strong argument to bring. You said yourself that it goes into an anaerobic state and continues to do it's job. It wouldn't be able to do it's job without reproducing. Yeast digestion leads to cell multiplication, inevitably.  Besides, in most any fermentation scenario, oxygen is still available well after the dough is initially mixed. You would have to seal up the dough very tightly very shortly after kneading, and put it in a refrigerator to slow down cellular reproduction even more, to have any real impact on yeast cell multiplication in the dough, and even that doesn't stop it. The whole reason cold fermentation is done is to slow down yeast growth and rely less on oxygen, but that doesn't stop it at all; it merely helps control it for a more well formed gluten structure.
Furthermore, the yeast used for baking is the same used for brewing beer, and there's no question that the yeast continues to do it's work and multiply long after the fermentation vessel is tightly sealed, regardless of fermentation. In fact, the process can go on for several weeks, when there's little to no oxygen left in the fermenter at all. The process is even more clearly visible in a glass fermenter with beer. You can pitch your yeast in, seal the lid, and see the yeast growing for a good 3 days afterwards.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2021, 04:11:40 PM »
I might of course be wrong.. :D  But I've learnt that yeast cells multiply during aerobic phases (when they have access to oxygen) and that they more or less stop multiplying (not completely) when they run out of oxygen, at which point they change their metabolism to consuming sugars and producing ethanol and co2.

Supposedly the available oxygen is exhausted in a matter of minutes after the dough is made.
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2021, 10:40:09 PM »
https://emilybuehler.com/books-2/
Is this a hint? Are you artfully trying to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about? :-D You've posted me a link to this book before, and I'm definitely interested in reading it at some point in time. If I'm wrong, do you think I'm way off the mark?
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Online foreplease

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2021, 09:18:34 AM »
Is this a hint? Are you artfully trying to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about? :-D You've posted me a link to this book before, and I'm definitely interested in reading it at some point in time. If I'm wrong, do you think I'm way off the mark?
If you order this consider getting it from Amazon. I bought it from her site thinking it would be better for her financially. I ws not able to download it from the resulting link. I did not pursue it or complain. I was busy with some other things and forgot about it until now.
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2021, 11:07:13 AM »
If you order this consider getting it from Amazon. I bought it from her site thinking it would be better for her financially. I ws not able to download it from the resulting link. I did not pursue it or complain. I was busy with some other things and forgot about it until now.
I had already put it on my amazon shopping list, and I sent a link to my parents and let them know that it's something they could get me for Christmas. I'm a bit hard to buy for, so I'm thinking they'll probably get it, since they know it's a winner.
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Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2021, 05:16:43 PM »
E book on my library site, downloaded last night and plowed through pretty quick. Good for learning more than most people will want to know.

Probably cut my falling asleep time by a few minutes.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #49 on: December 06, 2021, 10:57:39 AM »
I remember reading posts of Tom Lehmann highly suggesting that yeast and salt should not be in contact (and put in dough at different times), but I think that from his point of view it was just a matter of limiting the risks for restaurant/industrial production.
Yael,

That was my conclusion also. I used to read Tom's posts when he was on the PMQ Think Tank and I saw how carefully he guided the pizza operators who also posted on the forum to be sure that they did not get into trouble. Here on the forum we can tolerate occasional failures with a few dough balls but losing an entire day's production and volume of dough balls was to be avoided at all cost. Tom's hand holding prevented that. And to give you an example of this, you might want to take a look at the following thread at the PMQ Think Tank that I found through a search this morning:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/salt-sugar-yeast-mix-in-dough/10008/3

Peter


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Offline Yael

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #50 on: December 06, 2021, 06:45:16 PM »
Yael,

That was my conclusion also. I used to read Tom's posts when he was on the PMQ Think Tank and I saw how carefully he guided the pizza operators who also posted on the forum to be sure that they did not get into trouble. Here on the forum we can tolerate occasional failures with a few dough balls but losing an entire day's production and volume of dough balls was to be avoided at all cost. Tom's hand holding prevented that. And to give you an example of this, you might want to take a look at the following thread at the PMQ Think Tank that I found through a search this morning:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/salt-sugar-yeast-mix-in-dough/10008/3

Peter

Pete,

From all this discussion, and reading it again in this link you just shared, I'd say the real issue here should be "don't mix IDY with... cold water"  :-D
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