A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers  (Read 1226 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« on: December 08, 2021, 11:49:42 AM »
Hello,
I just purchased a 600 watt stand mixer to make my neopolitan dough. The older I get the more difficult it tends to be for me to hand knead my dough. Could someone point out the technique used for spiral mixers and the correct amount of mixing time required? I I usually make 6- 255 gram dough balls per session. Any help would be appreciated.

Offline QwertyJuan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 840
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2021, 10:19:09 PM »
Hello,
I just purchased a 600 watt stand mixer to make my neopolitan dough. The older I get the more difficult it tends to be for me to hand knead my dough. Could someone point out the technique used for spiral mixers and the correct amount of mixing time required? I I usually make 6- 255 gram dough balls per session. Any help would be appreciated.

Spiral or planetary??

Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2021, 10:50:41 PM »
It is a spiral mixer

Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2569
  • Location: Portland OR
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2021, 11:44:11 PM »
Don't have a spiral mixer, but time is irrelevant. Think about when you mix by hand, what does the dough feel and look like? That's what you are shooting for with a mixer. One guys spiral mixer might do it differently than the next and different dough formulas and ingredients mix at different timings. I also like to account for how long the dough is going to ferment, the longer ferment the less mix time.

Offline ARenko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 603
  • Location: The Woodlands, TX
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2021, 06:34:48 AM »

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2021, 07:50:16 PM »
Thanks Pizza_not_war and A Renco for your input. I watched the video and found this quite interesting and informative. I will experiment and see what cause and effect has on mixing times and resting my dough. I hope the process is as good as my hand kneading at some point. Thanks again!

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2430
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2021, 11:31:48 AM »
FWIW, I try to mix the minimum for my normal pizza dough.  All ingredients into the mixer and then 5 minutes at the lowest speed.  It's still a bit rough looking but feels tacky and no longer sticky.  I let it rest for 1 hour and then when I ball it up they get nice and smooth.

Others will have other procedures and might mix at a higher speed and for longer time.

When I make other dough types I'll adapt some other strategy, and mixing time might go up to 10 minutes.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2021, 05:21:56 PM »
FWIW, I try to mix the minimum for my normal pizza dough.  All ingredients into the mixer and then 5 minutes at the lowest speed.  It's still a bit rough looking but feels tacky and no longer sticky.  I let it rest for 1 hour and then when I ball it up they get nice and smooth.

Others will have other procedures and might mix at a higher speed and for longer time.

When I make other dough types I'll adapt some other strategy, and mixing time might go up to 10 minutes.

Amolapizza, Thanks for your response. What is your normal dough that you talked about?  I  make Neapolitan pizza most of the time and cold ferment my dough. Since Iím cold fermenting my dough,  the hour rest time wonít work for me. I have read many articles about overworking the dough in a mixer and I donít want to be one of those guys.  I  am leaning toward brief rests between slowest setting.  Am I looking for the window in the dough like I do when I hand knead?

Offline ARenko

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 603
  • Location: The Woodlands, TX
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2021, 05:50:02 PM »
Amolapizza, Thanks for your response. What is your normal dough that you talked about?  I  make Neapolitan pizza most of the time and cold ferment my dough. Since Iím cold fermenting my dough,  the hour rest time wonít work for me. I have read many articles about overworking the dough in a mixer and I donít want to be one of those guys.  I  am leaning toward brief rests between slowest setting.  Am I looking for the window in the dough like I do when I hand knead?
Not that you asked me, but even when I cold ferment I'll let the dough rest an hour or even two at room temp first.  Also, despite the video I posted showing a windowpane test it's not really necessary for pizza dough.  I just got a spiral mixer and have only done one Neapolitan dough in it - I couldn't bring myself to mix for as long as the video or worry about windowpane test.  I mixed until I felt it gluten was developed enough and dough wasn't too tacky, and then did some stretch and folds over the next hour.  It sorta feels wrong since I have the spiral mixer, but...


Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2021, 08:02:52 PM »
ARenco, Iím not getting any younger and could use any help I can get lol. My biggest concern is to not overwork the dough, but in the same sense, I donít want to underwork it either. Rest periods are a essential part of dough development, and therefore yeast percentage plays a big factor if rests are extended before a cold ferment. I guess I will experiment and purposely overwork and underwork the dough to see the results, something I have never done. Iíll roll up my sleeves and get busy. 👍🏻

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline lennyk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 203
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2021, 04:22:21 AM »
I use a famag and regularly mix 2-3kg flour at a speed which would be considered on slow side(a littler slower than above vid) for around 15mins.
smaller quantities were around 9mins.
Its difficult to overmix dough at these rates.

a key thing in the mixing process is your finish temp which affects everything after

so get your water temp dialed in and also observe how dough temp changes with however long you mix for etc.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2021, 04:24:24 AM by lennyk »

Offline kerrymarcy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 105
  • I can't and won't stop eating pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2021, 12:05:01 AM »
Lennyk, what  temp are you shooting for in your finished dough?

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2430
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2021, 02:02:35 PM »
Amolapizza, Thanks for your response. What is your normal dough that you talked about?  I  make Neapolitan pizza most of the time and cold ferment my dough. Since Iím cold fermenting my dough,  the hour rest time wonít work for me. I have read many articles about overworking the dough in a mixer and I donít want to be one of those guys.  I  am leaning toward brief rests between slowest setting.  Am I looking for the window in the dough like I do when I hand knead?

Sorry for the late reply, but I haven't been very active for awhile.

I guess this is kind of a huge discussion and it's hard to know what's right and wrong..  I've been taught to not over knead pizza dough for thin crust pizza.  I mainly make 58%/220g/30cm 60-70 seconds Napoletana, or classical Italian/European 2.5 minutes pizza.  I also make 180g/30cm 3-3.5 minutes Tonda Romana.  In all of these cases I think that the minimum kneading should be done, and any more than that brings a chewyness (leathery feel) to the pizza.  This might be my imagination though.. :D

Others might argue that it's better to develop more gluten as it will hold the gasses better and might give you a more impressive cornicione.  Still I think it's pretty well agreed that mixing the dough to a window pane test is overdoing it and a technique that is best reserved for bread making and not for pizza.  I also have a feeling that one should be very careful with folding the dough, as it builds a lot of gluten strength very rapidly.

Now if I make a 80% hydration dough for pizza in teglia / alla pala then things change and I try to build as much gluten strength as possible.  It probably takes me about 10 minutes (if I do it right) at medium/fast speed to build the right strength in the mixer and then some folding to close the dough.

Note that I'm normally making about a kg of dough (enough for 4 pizzas).  I think it's reasonable to assume that the mixing time will increase slightly if the dough is bigger, also if you start with the water and add the flour slowly.  But I've found this the fastest and best method to make my pizza dough.

I think you could probably try my technique, then put the dough directly in the fridge for bulk fermentation, I think you'll have adequate gluten formation when you pull it out for balling.  In any case you can always make a few tests even if you don't bake any pizza from it.  Flour is relatively cheap so it won't be a major expense.  I've made a lot of dough that was only for learning, the dough making itself, but also how to stretch and how to launch with the peel.  It's easier to experiment when you don't have the stress of having to produce something eatable.. :D

Regarding finished dough temperature, I normally ferment at room temperature so that's the final dough temperature I'm targeting.  In the winter I don't even bother, but when it's warm then I tend to use ice water especially for the high hydration dough that needs more time.  I think maybe the exact temperature isn't all that critical as long as it doesn't get too extreme, but it will set up the yeast for the fermentation process and it's probably important to keep it the same in order to be consistent with the fermentation timing.

I made a video a while back to demonstrate my method, it even got the thumbs up from the Dough Doctor (may he rest in peace)!  Note how I poke a finger into the dough and it doesn't spring back all that much.  If it springs back all the way, then the dough is far too tight for my taste.  Also look at how the dough stretches and tears around the breaker bar, that's what I look at for judging the dough strength.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2021, 03:07:38 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4987
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2021, 02:09:03 PM »
Wow, Jack.  I do not even need to respond.  You literally covered everything perfectly in my opinion.

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2430
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2021, 04:02:09 PM »
Thanks Scott!

I imagine that there are many ways to make a good pizza dough, this is mine.  It has evolved over the years as I've learnt, and might very well change again in the future.  But it's based on what I've been taught, what I've discovered myself, and it's the best I know how to make right now.

The really challenging thing about pizza is that every single thing that you do has an effect on the result, sometimes subtle, sometimes major, and it's really hard to discern cause and effect.  Still we learn as we go along, especially if we make a lot of pizza.. :)
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4987
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2021, 11:00:20 PM »
In my opinion there are many dough mixing videos on youtube that show over mixed dough.

Offline QwertyJuan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 840
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2021, 11:25:48 PM »
In my opinion there are many dough mixing videos on youtube that show over mixed dough.

How do you define overmixed though??  ???

Online scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4987
  • Age: 50
  • Location: Boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2021, 11:32:58 PM »
Dough with inferior texture, less browning, inferior flavor, and inferior crispiness because it has been agitated too much. 

Offline QwertyJuan

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 840
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2021, 10:01:05 PM »
Dough with inferior texture, less browning, inferior flavor, and inferior crispiness because it has been agitated too much.

I think it is quite hard to determine by just watching a video... IMO, the video that amolapizza posted? Undermixed. HOWEVER, he does a bulk ferment for what... an hour?? THEN he has a dough, which IMO, is what I am looking for, right out of my mixer. Why?? I don't have the ability to let my dough (about 60lbs) sit in my kitchen at work for an hour before balling and getting it into the fridge(Tom mentioned MANY times to get that dough off that mixer and into the fridge within 20 minutes), so I want it ready to form into balls as SOON as the mixer is finished.

Just a different way of looking at things.  :D

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2430
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Neopolitan dough mixing technique for spiral mixers
« Reply #19 on: December 24, 2021, 08:38:41 AM »
Yes I do about an hour of bulk which finishes the dough off for me.  Of course it's different making only 2 pounds in a home setting compared to 60 pounds in a commercial setting.  I don't believe there is a best or a right and a wrong way of making dough, it's all decisions taken for various reasons which might have a minor or major impact on the pizza produced.

I came to the minimum mixing due to my teachers insistence on not over mixing, but also because I noticed that more mixing led to a chewiness in my Napoletana.  I want my Napoletana to be as soft as possible, preferably melting in the mouth, no place for chewiness.  FWIW, I've also tried 10/15/20 minutes in the mixer and also higher speeds, but for my taste this is the winner right now.  Of course a different style of pizza and other circumstances might make another method preferable.

I posted the video as the OP was talking about a window pane test and 20-25 minutes in the spiral mixer.  I wanted to give an example of the other extreme, though not all that extreme as many pizzeria do use a bulk phase.  I also have no idea how long the bulk would have to be, it's possible that 20-30 minutes resting would also work, but I've never tried.

As a matter of interest, how does it work to ball the dough straight from the mixer?  Isn't the dough a bit hard to ball when it comes straight from the mixer with no time to relax?  Or maybe you use a mechanical dough divider/rounder instead of balling by hand?

Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress