Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Jackie Tran on May 19, 2010, 01:12:16 AM

Title: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 19, 2010, 01:12:16 AM
Got my hands on some caputo and it's been kicking my @ss for a couple of weeks.  Been doing experiment after experiment and have had zero luck with it, until tonight.

Made a couple of nice looking and tasty pies.  Hope to keep it going.

These were emergency dough formulations, 6 hours to be exact.  I even got some of the elusive leoparding on the 2nd pie. :-D
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 19, 2010, 01:20:48 AM
I'm not much for NYpolitan, but I'd eat that- which, for me, is high praise.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 19, 2010, 01:39:20 AM
I'm not much for NYpolitan, but I'd eat that- which, for me, is high praise.

 :-D Thanks Scott.  I'm not either actually BUT, I bought 15 lbs of caputo and have to use it up somehow.  :-D  As crazy as it sounds, my preferred pie is a NY pie cooked not at ultrahigh temps but around 650-700F for around 5-6mins. ;)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 19, 2010, 07:08:08 PM
As crazy as it sounds, my preferred pie is a NY pie cooked not at ultrahigh temps but around 650-700F for around 5-6mins. ;)

Well then, I guess our tastes are not that far apart. My preference is 500F for 4.5 minutes, but that's with soapstone.  I would say that soapstone at 500F is the equivalent of your average pizza stone at 700.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: PizzaHog on May 19, 2010, 07:24:49 PM
Very nice Tran!
So now that you have pulled off some beauties what do think of the Caputo pie?  Texture, chew, details please!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 19, 2010, 09:35:33 PM
Thx Hog.  I'll try to be as detailed as I can without being too wordy as I have a tendency to go on.   First off, my opinions are based on my personal preferences & experiments, relatively little pizza making experience, a lack of a WFO or fancy smancy mixer.

These were made using 8 slice's formulation found here on reply #789....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.780.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4753.780.html).  THANK YOU 8 SLICE!!  Instead of pastry flour, I used caputo 00 pizzeria flour.   So 80/20 (caputo/BF), 67% hydration, 1st pie ADY, 2nd Starter, salt, and water.   Note that the starter pie developed leoparding vs the ADY pie which had next to none.  Mixed in the food processor, and finished with hand kneading.    I upped the ADY and starter a bit and warm proofed to hurry things along.  Bulk rise covered outside in sunlight for 1.5H, reballed then under kitchen lights for 4.5H (average temp 80F?).  Dough rise was around 75%?.

Bake on firebricks (first time) at 700 and 750 in gas oven with broiler running. Rimmed to brown and with broiler off allowed bottom to bake another min or so.  Total bake time was under 4min.  Firebrick doesn't conduct heat nearly as well as my glazed primo pizza stone thus requiring a bit more of a bake time than I'm use to at the same temps using my glazed stone. 

Texture is as would be expected of caputo.  Less chew than using all BF or HG flour.  Bottom and crust is softer than compared to BF and gives way to the teeth and chews easier.   This would equate to being more digestable?  Again note, I didn't bake these at 850F for under 2 mins like a true neopolitan would require. 
So I can't say the crust wouldn't taste different if I had bake it at a higher temp.

Despite the deep brown color of the crust, it was not crunchy which I do like.  I haven't had a true neopolitan baked in WFO, but imagine it to have no crunch what's so ever.  Even on re-toasting the next day, the crust is soft and has little chew or crunch to it.

Tastewise, it taste like pizza crust.  Definitely not "special" in any different way than my other crust taste as I use the same amount of salt per pie as I normally do.  It tastes good but not insanely good or different by a wide margin.  If you are expecting that, then you may be dissappointed.  With more practice I may get better results and change my mind but I'm doubtful. 

The texture was quite good BUT i believe it had more to do with a new method of kneading I tried than the caputo flour itself.  Again remember 8 slice makes his out of pastry flour and his pies look stinkin' awesome.  So with the proper technique, I believe you can very closely replicate a true neopolitan pie without the use of caputo.  Maybe someone with a WFO and some real experience can describe the difference between making NP pies with pastry, AP, or caputo flour. 

I hope to try this experiment myself pitting pie against pie (pastry vs AP vs caputo).
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 19, 2010, 09:50:47 PM
Well then, I guess our tastes are not that far apart. My preference is 500F for 4.5 minutes, but that's with soapstone.  I would say that soapstone at 500F is the equivalent of your average pizza stone at 700.

Scott my best and favorite pie I have made, I described here.  Look at the thick crust skin around the big airbubble.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.0.html).  It was baked on my glazed stone with an oven temp of 500, and likely a stone temp of 600+.  I don't really know the true temp as this was when I hadn't bought a thermogun yet.  But it was baked for around 6mins?  The lightly browned crust was from the oven and not me rimming the pie as I do now under the broiler. 

The outer crust has a definite crunch to it much like french bread while the inside is soft and moist.  The bottom crust is thin and has a crunch to it as well.  It was not droopy like a classic NY'er.   The bottom crust is thin and it is slightly crunchy but it IS NOT like a cracker crust.  A cracker crust is dry on the inside whereas mine is slightly moist.    This pizza is different from the "elite" Patsy's or Verasano's pie I believe (although I haven't had a "true" either one of those).  I believe I have made hi temp pies that are close but maybe not exactly the same. 

At high temp (and short bakes - 800F and under 2 min) there is much moisture left in the crust and it ends up softening up the crust and bottom a bit taking away from the crunch that I like.   Even if I rest the pie on a grate so it can breathe and cool a bit, the bottom ends up going soft shortly after slicing as the trapped steam and moisture does it's work to produce a floppy foldable slice.  Maybe I need to lower my hydration level a bit and try again?  ???

Do you know if there is a big difference b/t a Patsy's/Verasano pie and a true Neopolitan?  Is Patsy's what you would classify as a NY-politan?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 19, 2010, 11:42:55 PM
I prefer droop, but with 65% doughs, 2.5 minute baking times and cooling on the tray (rather than the rack), I was getting too much droop, so I backed off the temp (600 to 500), increased the baking time to 4.5 minutes, started cooling the pie on a rack and now I'm getting the right amount of droop.  I also have been playing around with leaving the dough uncovered for a bit pre-opening to let the skin dry up a bit.  I hate it when the outside of the dough gets so dry it cracks when you open it, but a little time out helps to give you a crispier outer crust without the cracks. Also, if I have time, I flour the peel liberally and let the opened skin sit on that for a few minutes.  This not only dries the exterior, but it lets the gluten relax a bit after the agitation of opening.

I classify Patsy's, John's, Grimaldi's and Lombardi's (all Coal) as 'Neo-Neapolitan.' It's not a term you see much, and it's, by nature, a little redundant ;) but the higher temp of these coal ovens and the use of starters places these legendary pizzerias outside of the traditional NY classification. NY style, imo, is strictly a 450-700 deck oven endeavor.  Anything else isn't NY style.

NY-politan is something I just made up :)  I was remembering one of your previous posts where you were striving for something between NY and Naples.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 20, 2010, 12:43:53 AM
Scott not sure if you've tried this or not but if you want a bit of a skin on the bottom of the pie, I have on occasion allowed the skin to sit on the counter for a bit after stretching.  This allows the skin to dry a bit as you said.  When I'm ready to dress the pie, I flip the skin over so that the dry side goes on the peel and the moist side is up.    I do like this as it gives me a little more crisp on the bottom of the pie.

Instead of NY-politan, how about Newpolitan?  :P  Yes at one time I thought that was what I wanted but maybe what I really want sounds more like a cross between a NY and an American style pie so maybe a New American Pie.  Hmmm not sure as I'll have to let that one brew a bit. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: brayshaw on May 20, 2010, 04:53:07 AM
Tranman, thats a great tip about drying the skin slightly!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 20, 2010, 07:29:22 AM
Brady, I forgot to mention that the "skin" once turned over onto the peel also allows using less flour on the peel.  It dramatically reduces sticking even without using cornmeal or semolina. 

This method works best on a skin that is semi thin and under 14"?  The longer the skin sits before going on the peel the higher the tendecy to restick to your counter unless it's floured really well. I can't imagine employing this technique on a thin 18" pie. It probably wouldn't be easy.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2010, 09:30:59 AM
I classify Patsy's, John's, Grimaldi's and Lombardi's (all Coal) as 'Neo-Neapolitan.'

In his book, American Pie, Peter Reinhart also refers to the pizzas from the above pizzerias, as well as the New Haven style, as "Neo-Neapolitan". The cookbook author and celebrity David Rosengarten has referred to the pizzas from these pizzerias, and the New Haven style and the Di Fara's pizzas as well, as "NYapolitan" (pronounced "New York-apolitan") style pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 20, 2010, 12:02:34 PM
In his book, American Pie, Peter Reinhart also refers to the pizzas from the above pizzerias, as well as the New Haven style, as "Neo-Neapolitan". The cookbook author and celebrity David Rosengarten has referred to the pizzas from these pizzerias, and the New Haven style and the Di Fara's pizzas as well, as "NYapolitan" (pronounced "New York-apolitan") style pizzas.

Really? Interesting.  Maybe I need to start saying nicer things about Reinhart ;) I'm not sure I'm happy about New Haven getting lumped in there, though. Sure, the coal ovens are the same, but isn't New Haven unique enough to just be 'New Haven?'  I kind of think of New Haven like I think of Trenton.  Trenton is it's own style.


Tranman, the dry/flip idea sounds like a good one. Thanks.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: PizzaHog on May 20, 2010, 12:50:13 PM
Tran
Well although you were not transported to a higher place of pizzadom they do look excellent and it sounds like some texture differences were there, good show!
Quote
The texture was quite good BUT i believe it had more to do with a new method of kneading I tried than the caputo flour itself.
Might I inquire as to your new kneading method?

Thanks for all the info already and you have given me an idea for a new approach.  I am not really trying to achieve a Neapolitan as that is not possible, but aiming for my own hybrid.  NY-New Haven-NEA-Hoga-politan.  If I ever achieve it I will have to think of a new name for sure.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 20, 2010, 07:35:13 PM
Hog never say never .   :-D  I like the name of your new pie.  I had just about given up on caputo, but these 2 pies gave me some hope again. ;D

Nothing really new about this technique but new for me.  So I've been reading the forum looking at recipes and techniques involving caputo and neopolitan.  A couple of techniques caught my attention and I wanted to try them.  Sorry I can't give credit where it is due since I've looked at so many recipes, but you guys know who you are.  Thank you!!

-Use cold water
-Add a little flour at a time
-24 hour preferment, some say same day.  So no cold fermentation, but some ppl make great looking NP using cold fermentation.
-I also looked at a VPN recipe & method posted in the Patsy's thread and took note of the hand kneading technique.  From what I recall, the dough was hand kneaded for around 30m or so.  It would appear that caputo, being low in protein would require or could tolerate extensive (hand) kneading, although I have also read that some are not kneading much at all.  Go figure huh.   As Bill's signature says, pizza making is mostly science and part magic or something like that. 

With all this and 8 slices formula in mind, a recalled a tidbit of info from J. Varasano's site mentioning that most of the mixing should be done when the dough is wet and that the flour is added in gradually.  A small but dim light bulb came on and I set out on another experiment.  Out came the food processor.  Ice cold water was used and ADY/Starter was mixed with the water.  Salt was added to the flour and only about 50-60% of the flour was incorporated and mixed well so that I now had a batter consistency.   I proceeded to over mix/knead using the pulse button checking the temps often.  I was suprise that the temp wasn't rising much as before and realized that with the batter that loose there was a lot less friction.  I must have mixed the dough with about 50 revolutions? adding in another 50% of the remaining flour and mixed some more, and then the rest of the flour gradually.   All the while making sure the dough temp didn't exceed 80F. 

Don't ask me about the 80F temp but apparently it is important.  ;)  The dough was folded/balled several times and allowed to bulk rise for 1-2 hours and then reballed and allowed for the final rise.  At this point, you can go to cold fermentation if you like or allow to proof until bake. 

The result was an improved crumb structure and texture different than my usual pies.  Take a look at the crumb structure of the first vs  the 2nd pie (ADY vs starter).  Both exhibit a very similar look and mouth feel.  I attribute this to the kneading technique.  Keep in mind I have made somewhere in the ballpark of 120 pies or so with most of them with my previous hand kneading technique that I posted in the easy to remember NY recipe, so I know precisely how my pies look, feel, and taste.  This method gave me 2 different pies than what I usually make.  2 pies that were somewhat better.  2 pies that I was excited to eat, and I pretty much don't enjoy eating pizza at this point.  JK yall.  :-D 

Can you believe it?  Same ingredients, different method of mixing to get a different texture result?  This method gave me a texture that was reminiscent of my perfect pie.  That perfect pie was a hand kneaded pie as well but it was long ago so I don't remember the exact technique used as I was always experimenting with too many variables at the same time then.   I likely followed J. Varasano's instructions on that one as well but I can't be sure.   So at any rate, it was either dumb luck or there is magic in what Varasano says. 

Varasano says that he can make the same pie using any flour, hand kneaded or mixer.  He even posted a nice looking hand kneaded pie and claims that it's all in the technique.  Well that too has been a long time goal of mine and I think with this bit of info, I'm getting closer.  I gotta give him credit.  He's a perfectionist and has spent many years perfecting his craft.  Thanks Jeff for sharing the info. 

Hope that helps and let's see some pies Hog.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: PizzaHog on May 20, 2010, 08:39:03 PM
So Dr Tran, I would say your experiment was a success  ;D! 
So I wonder how much the food processor had to do with your results.  Or was it more the mix regimen.  Or even the flour blend.  Each answer only leads to more questions it seems so I will be looking forward to your next experiment for sure.
My next will be this weekend if poss. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 20, 2010, 09:03:28 PM
I wonder the same thing Hog, but I have achieved a very similar texture with hand kneading before but it was with HG bread flour.

I doubt it was the 80/20 combination as I have tried 1/2 and 1/2, 2/3 and 1/3, and 3/4 and 1/4 before this and didn't get this result with any other flour or caputo 00.

I'll plan on hand mixing some dough tonight using this technique.  I'll do a comparison between AP, BF, and caputo.

If the experiment fails than I'll know it's the food pro. If successful, I'll know it's the technique.  If I get a great result with the BF and mediocre results with the AP/Caputo then it's in the management of the specific type of flour.

Anyways, I'll post up results good or bad.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Glutenboy on May 20, 2010, 09:16:03 PM
Maybe I didn't read carefully.  Is that dough all Caputo?  If so, that's the most golden brown crust I've ever seen it produce.  Did you use sugar in the formulation?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 20, 2010, 09:55:21 PM
GB, the above pies are both 80% caputo pizzeria and 20% HG BF from Sunflower whole foods market. No sugar or oil was added.

My pies are a golden color when baked in the home oven b/c I will "rim" the pie against the broiler for added browness.

As an aside I bought pizzeria caputo 00 and Antimo Caputo 00 (the Chef's flour) and neither are pure white in color whether hydrated or not.  Once mixed, my caputo dough never seems to look pure white as pics I've seen around here.  ???
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: 8-slice on May 21, 2010, 04:59:53 AM
Nice pies Tran!  :pizza: :pizza:

Those pics have made me hungry now at 4 am... I won't be making anything in my beast for a while, as I'm flying to NY later this morning, for a couple of weeks to visit the folks.... And see what pizza goodies I can pick up!!

Cook on!

8-slice  :chef:
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 22, 2010, 11:28:26 PM
Thank you 8-slice and thank you for your recipe and method.  I will give your kneading method a try sometime in the future and report back to you. 

PH, I have some good news for you.   I have made some advancement and taken a big step forward (IMO).  Not perfect yet but making progress.

I have been able to verify Varasano's claims.  Make a consistent pizza using any flour.  He is right, it's in the technique.  Here are 3 pies baked in my Primo Ceramic coal fired oven at around 850F.   They were all hand kneaded using the same technique as described in the above posts.  Not exactly the same technique for each pie as each flour behaves differently when kneading but the technique was similar for all 3.   The same amount of water, salt, and % of starter was use on all 3 pies.  The amount of flour varied according to how each dough felt.  I basically stopped adding flour when the dough felt right, so each dough had a different hydration ratio.  This is due to the different characteristics and behavior of each flour.   One pie was made with HG BF, one made with all Caputo 00, and one made with AP flour.

Let's play a game and see if you guys can figure out which is which.
 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 22, 2010, 11:49:04 PM
Here's the crumb shots of the 3 pies respectively.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2010, 11:52:18 PM
Tran,

Can you tell us the dough ball weight you used to make the pizzas and the size of the pizzas you made with the dough?

Peter
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 12:01:18 AM
Yes Peter.  The AP dough ball ended up being 178gm, the caputo 00 ended up being 207gm, and the HG BF ended up being 198gm.  I stretched all of them out until they get to a certain thickness or thinness that I like, so they were all around 10-11" each.

I premeasured each flour out at 140gm.  Added  about 60% of the flour and let the batter rest.  Came back and added more flour in small amounts with kneading until it "felt right".  Each dough had the same amount of water but took up a different amount of flour.

Peter, you don't want to venture a guess for fun? ;)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: widespreadpizza on May 23, 2010, 12:48:54 AM
Tranman,  first off,  nice work on the pies.  They all look good.  I am curious if you used different cheeses on these pizzas and also by how much the bake time varied.  but heres what I'd guess. -marc

1-AP
2-00
3-HG
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 01:00:43 AM
Marc, thank you for the compliment and thanks for playing along.  You've gotten one of the 3 correct but I'll hold off on saying which one.  I'd like to see some more ppl play the game.

I will also hold off on answering the cheese question as that will give away the answers.

As far as bake times, I'd have to guess they were all under 2 mins.  Maybe a bit more.  I know the firebrick temp was around 850 when the pies were loaded.  They were turned about every 30 secs or so.  The bottoms are dark with a small burned area.  I'm still working on my primo set up.  I don't believe the bake times varied much from pie to pie.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 23, 2010, 01:12:41 AM
1 HG
2 00
3 AP
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 06:37:22 AM
1 HG
2 00
3 AP

ding, ding, ding! And we have a winner folks! You've just won yourself a bottle of NY City water, a caputo apron, and a year's supply of pizza from my kitchen. :)

ok Scott, how did you do that? 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2010, 07:17:23 AM
Tranman,

You never cease to amaze me in your experimenting.   ;D  All your pies looks delicious.

Norma
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 07:34:01 AM
Tranman,

You never cease to amaze me in your experimenting.   ;D  All your pies looks delicious.

Norma

Thank you for your support Norma. It does mean a lot to me. :)

Marc, about the cheese. Pie #2 had a bit of belgioso on it. The other 2 had a mixture of Boars head block whole milk mozzarella, shredded belgioso, and shredded Polly O (that Im trying to get rid of).

I've been waiting for months to get the dough right before springing for the buffala mozzarella.  I'm almost there. :)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2010, 08:54:29 AM
The AP dough ball ended up being 178gm, the caputo 00 ended up being 207gm, and the HG BF ended up being 198gm.  I stretched all of them out until they get to a certain thickness or thinness that I like, so they were all around 10-11" each.

Tran,

I asked you for the dough ball weights and pizza sizes because I have always believed that the statement that technique trumps the type of flour was too broad and sweeping. My thesis is that if such a statement applies, it is perhaps limited to pizzas with crusts that are very thin. In such cases, there is less crust with each bite and the flavor of the flour itself has to compete with the flavors of the sauce, cheese and toppings plus whatever other flavors are contributed by the bake process itself, such as the flavors of crust caramelization, Maillard reactions, the denaturing of protein, flavors added by the use of the broiler, elevated clean cycle temperatures, etc. In your case, the thickness factors of the pizzas you made ranged from 0.066 to 0.086 based on 11" pizzas. So, I think that what you did fits my construct. Sometime you might try making pizzas with much thicker crusts, such as Papa John's clones, using different flours (e.g., all-purpose, bread and high-gluten) but essentially the same dough preparation and management methods. I think you will find that you will detect the flour differences, mainly because you will get a lot more crust with each bite so that the flour flavor comes through more strongly.

I was planning to reply to your quiz this morning along with the above explanation but, had I guessed, I would have said Caputo, HG/BF and all-purpose. In my oven and typical bake configuration, I might have gotten different answers. However, none of this detracts from the fine quality of your pizzas. You did a nice job.

Peter
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 12:25:24 PM
Peter, thanks for the nice words.  I do appreciate it. 

I think you may have misunderstood or misinterpreted Jeff's intentions or my own.  I haven't been to his site since I started making pizza but I had to read it over again to see if I myself had misunderstoof Jeff. 

Here's a snipet from his website.

"Flour: There is a lot of emphasis put on using the right type of flour. Personally, I think this focus is misplaced. Of course, it's important to use high quality ingredients. But improving your dough making technique is much, much more important than hunting down the exact right type of flour. The truth is that almost all flours sold are pretty high quality especially compared to what was available 60 years ago when Patsy Lancieri was making amazing pizza. That alone should tell you something. I currently use either using  King Arthur Bread Flour or a blend of this with Caputo Pizzeria flour. I actually think that you can buy any bread flour available at your local supermarket and you'll be ok."

I don't think Jeff is saying that technique trumps the type of flour at all.  I think he is saying that with proper dough technique you can make a great pizza out of any type of flour.  I think he's saying that the specific type of flour is less important than having the proper technique.  To give an example of this, check out the first post in this thread.

Assuming that caputo is the BEST flour to use for making pizza, I had worked and worked with it for 2 weeks with several failed attempts until I had improved 2 factors, one of which was my technique.  I'll have to review my notes to see where I went wrong with my prior attempts.  So it is evident that having the right flour won't necesarily guarantee a good result.  As we all know, there are many factors that contribute to making good pizza not just the flour or even Jeff's ultimate techniques.

Although I have made 3 similar looking pies with a similar crumb structure by using relatively the same hand kneading technique and method for all three, they are anything but the same pies.   As you noted, the flavor of thin crust pizza can be obscure by the sauce and cheese, I did multiple taste test of the pizzas and rims alone both yesterday and today.

Although they all had a similar taste and texture there were some big differences.  I was hesitant to reveal the hydration rates, but it is pertinent at this point so I will.

The final calculated hydration ratios are as follows.  These are rough estimates as it is impossible to get exact numbers on hydration ratios for several reasons. 

  AP dough 85%
  caputo 69%
  BF 79%

The BF pie was cooked first.  I had only a short time frame to snap up some pictures and go with making the other pies.  I should have tasted the BF pizza when it was hot but ended up tasting it after it had cooled.  The caputo was next, and AP dough last.  I tasted the AP dough while it was hot with melted cheese and all and it was delicious while the BF pie had cooled and was so so. 

The rim on the BF pie had a bit more chew to it than the others as expected.  Both the BF and the Caputo rim tasted a bit on the dry side to me.   The AP flour (shockingly) enough had the best texture and moistness.  Looking back at the hydration ratios, i wasn't suprised.  They all had a slightly different taste to them despite having pretty much the same ingredients, same water, and same starter.

I should also note that I had originally intended these to bake only after 12hrs of cold fermentation (after a bulk rise of 10 hours already) on Friday night but had to work late and ended up baking these on Saturday afternoon, a full 18 hours later.  I have notice that my pizzas tend to dry out the longer I wait to bake them.  I'm convince the high altitude environment here plays a significant role in that and also explains to some degree my required high hydration rates. 

Even after reheating them in the toaster this morning for breakfast, I had the same perceptions of the dough as yesterday.  I'm not suprised at all that the rims/crusts tasted different from one another.  Were that dramatically different?  No, but enough to say that no matter the technique, or even the use of a mixer, or an authentic WFO could not cover up the fact that they are different flours and different flours just behave  and taste differently.

Sorry to belabor the point here but I want to make something clear.  As a new pizza maker, I (like everyone) else was somewhat enamored  and mystified by the magicalness of caputo flour, wondering if I needed it to elevate me into 7th pizza heaven.   After months of thinking about it and driving all over town to see if I could find it, I finally gave in and ordered it.  Having just started working with it, having failed with it, and having 2 successfully attempts with it, I can say that it hasn't taken me there.  Will it someday? Possibly?

IMO, it's a great flour, but it's flour after all.  I agree with you Peter (having read one of your post about it) is that it's not necessarily special, it's just different.  It's milled differently to different specifications and gives a unique characteristic to a certain type of pizza that many hold in high esteem. 

Should people try it?  By all means YES!  But IMO, I would save it for when you have tried the other flours you can find locally.  No need to pay extra shipping just to have a piece of that magic pie.  You can make a similar tasting pie using any flour, even crappy flour.  If you can't make a pie you are happy with using local flours, caputo will only discourage you further since it behaves differently.

As a challenge, if anyone is interested in sending me some of what they deem to be crappy flour, I would happily make a pie and post it.   As it stands, I just recently bought 25lbs of Con Agra mill AP flour, 50 lbs of Sam's club HG flour, 15 lbs of caputo, and various other flours so I've run out of crappy grocery store flour long ago. 

Cheers.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2010, 01:20:59 PM
Tran,

Thank you for clarifying your position and interpretation of Jeff's remarks. I may have been influenced by how others interpreted Jeff's remarks on the relative merits of technique over type of flour, some of which is reflected in posts in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2217.msg19459.html#msg19459. I had also recalled that Jeff posted the following relative to the type of pizza he was making:

Since putting up this site I've been urged to try other flours. I've made pies with at least 20 flours including these:

King Arthur All Purpose (KA AP) - 11.7% Protein

King Arthur Bread (KA Bread)  - 12.7% protein

King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) aka Hi Gluten - 14.2% Protein

Gold Medal Bread Flour (formerly labeled Harvest King) - 12.5% protein

Caputo Pizzeria 00 (11.5%, but also a finer mill)

Giusto's Artisan Unbleached - 11-11.5% protein

White Lily Bread Flour - 12.5 % protein

I can make a nearly identical pie with any of these except for the Italian 00 flour. It's mostly technique. (Emphasis mine)


I think that the above highlighted statement led people to believe that the flour type didn't matter and that they should just use whatever flour they had on hand (other than the Caputo) and not waste their money buying some of the pricier flours, like high-gluten flour. I have seen that type of reaction many times over the years, often with attribution to Jeff. It was also the above statement that led to my explanation of how one might not be able to tell the difference in flours in a very thin crusted pizza, such as what Jeff was making.

Whatever the interpretations that came out of Jeff's comments on technique over flour type, he apparently found it necessary to clarify his position in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2217.msg25506.html#msg25506. It is perhaps best to let that post stand as his position. What you reported in your last post is more in line with my own thinking. I have never doubted that good technique will produce a better result, no matter the type of flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 03:15:46 PM
As always thank you for the links Peter.  It was rather fun to read some of the history and where some of the misundertandings may have started especially given the title of the thread and the opening post. :-D

I agree with things that have been said on both sides of the debate.  I doubt Jeff was first (as he claims) to develop any of those techniques or methods he claims credit for.  He may have been the first to organize them and introduce some of those ideas to the forum, but I have also heard of some rather inciteful remarks by the famed pie maker.   Remarks like there was no real pizza in Atlanta until he came along.

I'm surprise that he can make an identical product with his techniques with any flour except caputo 00.  Is it that different?  I'm sure that is no longer the case tho.

At any rate, I did want to take a moment to acknowledge the forum, you Peter, and the contributions of countless members here.  The knowledge here about pizza making and even just the discourse alone have spurred me onto trying and doing new things I never would have figured out on my own.  I have been able to improve my knowledge and skill in pizza making in a very short time.  In my mind, that says more for the forum than it does any skill that I might have.  I would definitely not been able to develop those skills without help from the forum and it's members.  I'm happy to return any little contribution I can to the forum.   Everyone should give themselves a pat on the back. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 23, 2010, 07:36:00 PM
ding, ding, ding! And we have a winner folks! You've just won yourself a bottle of NY City water, a caputo apron, and a year's supply of pizza from my kitchen. :)

ok Scott, how did you do that? 

Yay!  ;D

Looking at the crumb, I could see the additional starch/weaker gluten in the third pie, so I knew right off the bat it was AP.  When you told Marc that he had gotten one right, by process of elimination, that gave me the answer.


As far as technique trumping flour type, I'm with Peter on this one.  Protein has very particular characteristics. Although, if you know what you're doing, you can mitigate the effects of varying levels of protein in flour (I've made great NY pizzas using AP), I don't think you can remove them completely from the equation. More importantly, though, using the incorrect flour for the job increases the margin for error enormously. 

Whenever the topic of A/P flour for pizza (or quarry tiles) comes up, I can't help but think about the movie Tin Cup. In it, Kevin Costner successfully plays a few holes of golf with a baseball bat and a rake.  Sure, it makes for great comedy, but, in real life, why use a bat when you've got golf clubs?

For instance, with a typical electric oven and typical store bought pizza stone, you can, by preheating the stone to the max it will go and then preheating it further with the broiler, get a quality fast baked pizza. Everything has to be perfectly right, though. With my soapstone slab, I can set my oven to 500 (not it's highest setting), put a pie in and, 4 minutes later, end up with a fantastic pie every time. I'm not pushing the parameters of the equipment.

Another example, on the other side of the protein spectrum, would be pastry flour. If you know what you're doing and are fastidiously careful, you can make a tender pie crust with all purpose flour. Using pastry flour, though, makes the job so much easier.

Summing up, right tool for the right job. And A/P flour (for NY style pizza) isn't it.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 09:15:31 PM
Nice detective work there Scott.  :D  I gave away a bit of a hint when I said if I talked about the cheese I would give it away.   By the cheese alone, #2 is clearly a NP pie unless I had set out from the beginning to confuse ppl but that's not the case.  I tried to use a little reverse psychology by naming the pies in the order of the pictures hoping that most ppl would think there's no way he would do that.  :-D

I totally agree with what you said about using the right tool for the job as I think that truth echoes true in many areas of life not just pizza making.  However, I just don't see a debate here between 2 sides.  I see both sides making valid points and would prefer to remain in the neutral zone benefiting from both sides.  Even when I first read Jeff's website (apart from this forum) I never read it as flour doesn't matter at all.  I simply read it as technique is more important or can overcome not having the correct flour.  Having said that, I would dare bet $ that Jeff isn't using cheap or inexpensive flour b/c technique trumps flour.  Jeff is likely using the good stuff. 

What is the correct flour for a NY pie btw?  HG BF?  As I recall, I think Peter had posted that back in the day, NY operators were all using AP flour when the higher protein stuff wasn't even available.  Now that it is available, I wonder how many are using a mixture of flours rather than HGBF exclusively. 

I also agree with you that if one knows what he is doing, he can compensate for the lesser protein of a flour.  I would add that not only could one make ammends for a lesser (or greater) protein flour, but for all the numerous other factors that play a role as well.  Commercial yeast vs Starters, various baking material, various oven temps, altitude, humidity, etc etc.   

I have always held onto the belief that a great pizzaiolo could contend with all these factors and make a decent pizza (not ideal) in any given situation with perhaps limited access to ideal ingredients and such. 
Having said that, I absolutely agree that the best pies will come from having proper ingredients, proper technique, proper equipment, and the right customers who can appreciate these specific variables. 
That sounds like a perfect world situation to me.  But let's get back to reality where most of us live.  Could you get by with lesser ingredients with proper technique. Yes.  Would you want to?  depends on how picky you are.  Would you have to sometimes?  maybe.

Speaking of AP flour, I'm curious to know what makes pastry flour a better flour for making a NY pie than AP?  I thought it was generally lower in protein?  Are you talking about an "elite" NY politan pie here?  Is it b/c Pastry flour more closely mimics  Caputo?

It was really refreshing to know that I could make a decent looking pie with AP.  Up until then, I had assume a similar approach to you that AP was the wrong type of flour to use for a NY pie.  But having done it now, I have changed my mind about AP flour.  I'm very young in my pizza making so I will continue to experiment with it alone and in combination with other flours.  I just have a more open mind about AP flour now.   It's just nice to know that if I wanted to make pizza at my mother's house and all she had was AP flour, I wouldn't have to sweat it and go out and buy a bag of BF.  Would it make the best pizza I could make?  Probably not, but could it make a decent pie?  probably so.  The audience couldn't likely appreciate the difference like some of us could. 

Oddly enough the BF pie looked the best, but the AP pie tasted the best.  Who's to say that if the hydration ratio on the BF pie was higher that I wouldn't have like it better. 

Thank you Scott and Peter, sincerely for keeping this discussion going as I am learning a lot here.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 23, 2010, 10:12:54 PM
What is the correct flour for a NY pie btw?  HG BF?  As I recall, I think Peter had posted that back in the day, NY operators were all using AP flour when the higher protein stuff wasn't even available.  Now that it is available, I wonder how many are using a mixture of flours rather than HGBF exclusively.

My pizzeria supplier doesn't even sell A/P flour. Just 4 different brands of HG, all bromated. Although I'm certain that some places in the NY metro area use higher gluten than others (14% vs. 12%), I think the odds of any pizzeria using A/P flour are pretty slim- maybe 1 in 1000. 


Speaking of AP flour, I'm curious to know what makes pastry flour a better flour for making a NY pie than AP?  I thought it was generally lower in protein?  Are you talking about an "elite" NY politan pie here?  Is it b/c Pastry flour more closely mimics  Caputo?

Sorry, I think my use of the term 'pie' was a bit misleading.  I wasn't referring to pizza.  I should have said 'apple pie' as I was referring to pastry.  Low protein pastry flour (8%) isn't really viable for bread/pizza.


And yes, it is a good feeling to overcome A/P flour's limitations and make a great pizza.  You get a feeling of being a bit of an alchemist.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 10:50:22 PM
Ah good to know you were referring to apple 'pie' which is another headache in and of itself to master.  :-D 

I thought the same about pastry flour until 8 slice told me he makes his nearlypolitan out of 80% pastry flour b/c he can't get caputo locally or something like that.  His pies look awesome. I guess that makes him a mad scientist.  >:D

I might just have the gumption to retry that pastry pizza again now that I know a wee bit more about pizza.  I'll post up if I do.  Anyways, enough with the elitist and their pizzas.   

I'm on to the next project which is revisiting my perfect pizza.  Lower temps and longer bake times.  I have a notion that either high amounts of yeast and/or longer ferment times (basically taking a dough to near exhaustion) to take advantage of the dough softening effects of the protease enzymes (and any others) will give me that light and airey texture I like.   Does this sound doable? or another hairbrained idea?

Also tell me if my hydration rates sound unlikely?  I think it's rather high but yet whether I bake at lower temps (650F) or higher temps (850F), most of my pies come out a little on the dry side.  Is it overkneading perhaps that causes a chewier texture which leads to the perception of a dry crust? At 75-80% hydration I would think it should give me a moist enough crust but my crust is mostly air and the texture for some reason always seems a bit dry.   ???
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2010, 11:10:35 PM
What is the correct flour for a NY pie btw?  HG BF?  As I recall, I think Peter had posted that back in the day, NY operators were all using AP flour when the higher protein stuff wasn't even available.  Now that it is available, I wonder how many are using a mixture of flours rather than HGBF exclusively. 

Tran,

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that the three basic flours, all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, are used to make the NY style pizza, with high-gluten flour being the predominant flour. In the early days of NY pizza making, all-purpose flour and bread flour co-existed for many years. General Mills, for example, introduced a high protein flour (named High Protein Flour) in 1920 that was essentially a bread flour. That flour was discontinued in 1974 only to be resurrected in 1979 as the Better for Bread flour, which is a bread flour. When Evelyne Slomon published her book, The Pizza Book, in 1984, she mentioned only all-purpose and bread flours for her NY style dough recipe. It took a few years later for high-gluten flour to be used to make the NY style. Previously, that flour was used mainly to make bagels. Today, high-gluten flour is the most common flour, at least in the NYC area, to make the NY style. Along the way, I did wonder whether NY-area pizza operators had completely abandoned all-purpose flour to make the NY style. One of our members, Artale, himself a Varasano acolyte, indicated great surprise when he discovered that one of his favorite pizzerias was using all-purpose flour to make the NY style, as he noted in Reply 43 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg11626/topicseen.html#msg11626. There may still be some pizza operators using all-purpose flour to make the NY style but I would say the numbers are quite small. Other than Dom DeMarco at DiFara's, who uses a combiination of 00 flour and high-gluten flour, I doubt that many NY pizza operators use flour blends.

When I first started playing around with the Lehmann NY style dough recipe, I used mainly high-gluten flour and, later, bread flour. I had always wanted to make a version using all-purpose flour but I could never make a pizza with that flour that I thought compared well from a crust taste, color and texture standpoint with those based on high-gluten flour or bread flour. In those days, most of us had only simple pizza stones and basic ovens and maybe a pizza screen here or there. We weren't into trying to modify our ovens or to use creative baking solutions like you and many of our other members now do. So, I was looking for an entry level all-purpose flour version of the Lehmann NY style dough. It took me quite a while to come up with such a version that I felt that I could recommend to our members, but I eventually came up with a version that I liked. It is the dough formulation at Reply 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669. The predicate for the work I discussed in Reply 205 is in the preceding Reply 204. These days, I would use one of the dough calculating tools and the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to do the number crunching. Back then, those tools did not exist. No doubt my experience trying different flours with the Lehmann dough formulation shaped my views on how different flours behave in a recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 23, 2010, 11:26:35 PM
Peter what an informative post. The only thing I could add is that when I was using the GMs better for bread is that I was surprise to find out it is approximately 10% protein if memory serves me correctly. I also faintly recall that you posted that protein levels from the label is not an accurate measurement.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 23, 2010, 11:49:07 PM
I'm on to the next project which is revisiting my perfect pizza.  Lower temps and longer bake times.  I have a notion that either high amounts of yeast and/or longer ferment times (basically taking a dough to near exhaustion) to take advantage of the dough softening effects of the protease enzymes (and any others) will give me that light and airey texture I like.   Does this sound doable? or another hairbrained idea?

Also tell me if my hydration rates sound unlikely?  I think it's rather high but yet whether I bake at lower temps (650F) or higher temps (850F), most of my pies come out a little on the dry side.  Is it overkneading perhaps that causes a chewier texture which leads to the perception of a dry crust? At 75-80% hydration I would think it should give me a moist enough crust but my crust is mostly air and the texture for some reason always seems a bit dry.   ???

If dry crusts are an issue, then I think longer lower temps/longer bake times are going to be counterproductive. Overkneading could be the culprit.  I find that extensive gluten formation gives me a bit of a leathery texture. This video here was a game changer in my approach toward kneading:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz1g1KSiqCU

If I knead less than 2 minutes, my skins form like this. Not only do the skins form this easily, but the baked crust has a beautiful tenderness.  If I knead more than 2 minutes I get tough leathery crusts. I should add that I use bromated all trumps, which basically forms gluten when you breath on it :) When I make the move to a lower protein flour, I might be a little less knead phobic, but, as long as I do a cold fermentation (possibly forever?) I don't think I'll ever go much more than 2 minutes. I also no longer mess around with autolyses or folds. I'm really careful not to manipulate the gluten at all between the time the balls are formed and the skins are opened.

Have you tried adding oil to dough yet? That can go a long way in aiding the perceived moisture in bread.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 24, 2010, 12:12:32 AM
Scott your the sh*t, and I mean that in a good way.  You're absolutely on the money.  I recently started using HG bromated and bleach flour and that's the problem with my crust.  It's leathery.  I didn't know how to describe it but that's it.  Over kneading is my issue then so I will experiment with that.

I haven't seriously played with oil just a little here and there, but after Pete's post about oil in the ultra thin pizza thread, I got to thinking that I would explore that next.  I have a lot of homework to do yet.  Thanks for the help. 

That video is a eye opener for me as well.  My caputo pie opened that easily but was too leathery as well.  You can see when Jimmy Kimmel goes to take a bite of the slice how easily it gives way.  Thanks for the video.

Also 2 min knead?  Are you using a mixer or by hand?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 24, 2010, 12:26:03 AM
Thanks for the kind words  :)

Try 2% oil. I think you'll be very pleasantly surprised. Some oil is pretty standard for NY style.

I knead by hand.  And that's 2 minutes max- lately it's closer to a minute.  I do knead fairly aggressively, though.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 24, 2010, 12:47:10 AM
okay Scott, just mixed up an experimental dough with minimal kneading.  Will bake on Tues night and let you know.

Goal is around 150gm dough ball about 75% hydration
HG BF 80gm
Water 58gm
Starter 14gm
Salt 1/2 tsp
oil 1 tsp

Rehydrated yeast for 2 min.  Mixed in salt, starter, oil and flour.  Spent about a little more than 1 min to mix all together well.

Dough is resting now.  Will rest for 5min and fold a few times.  Will repeat this several times to try and get a familiar "feeling" and then it will go into deep sleep.  No autolyse really and no long bulk rise times.

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 24, 2010, 01:04:37 AM
If you get this in time, try it without the fold. If not, try it next time.

Folding = kneading. In fact it develops even more gluten because gluten takes time to hydrate and kneading usually occurs while the flour is relatively unhydrated while folding is done after the dough has hydrated a bit.

Btw, if tenderness is your goal, you don't want to rest the dough at all.  Mix, ball, chill, wait, warm, open.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 24, 2010, 01:27:17 AM
If you get this in time, try it without the fold. If not, try it next time.

Folding = kneading. In fact it develops even more gluten because gluten takes time to hydrate and kneading usually occurs while the flour is relatively unhydrated while folding is done after the dough has hydrated a bit.

Btw, if tenderness is your goal, you don't want to rest the dough at all.  Mix, ball, chill, wait, warm, open.

Ok i didn't get it in time but that's what i did.  After the 1min or so mix, I let it rest for 5 min and then folded maybe 5x, then balled.  So this is the least amount of work I have ever done for dough and to be honest with you, it has a great feel to it like my other dough usually feels.  You are the craziest pizza maker if this [email protected] actually works Scotty.  :-D

I just did some % calculations and got. 

flour 100%
water 73% with starter 75%
Starter 17.5%
ADY 0.6%
Salt 2.5%
oil ~3% based on 1 tsp being equivalent to 5gm? 

Anyways I did let it sit out under a lamp for 10m just to kick start the yeast but it's going to sleep now.  For anyone following this, I know it's a lot of yeast.  I'm doing a different side experiment with yeast as well.  Sorry I couldn't help it.  ;)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2010, 10:18:56 AM
The only thing I could add is that when I was using the GMs better for bread is that I was surprise to find out it is approximately 10% protein if memory serves me correctly. I also faintly recall that you posted that protein levels from the label is not an accurate measurement.

Tran,

I have not been able to find the General Mills specs for the Better for Bread flour. However, for a while, GM changed the name of that flour to Harvest King, for which specs do exist, at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc). As you can see from that spec, the protein content is around 12%. I might add that GM has switched back to the Better for Bread name. For a while, perhaps during the transition stage, I saw some bags of flour that carried both names.

It is because of rounding factors that you can't get accurate protein data from labels.

Peter

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 25, 2010, 12:29:30 AM
OK Scott, feeling confident about your technique, I went ahead and made up 2 more doughballs tonight, a caputo and an AP.  I have lowered my hydration ratio drastically and noted that the dough is quite a bit wetter than I have been previously working with.   I am really refraining hard from kneading the dough much as it is my inclination to knead pass this wet feeling.  I may just need to lower the hydration ratio further. 

As it stands, the AP HR is at 70% and the Caputo at 60%.  the caputo doesn't feel quite as sticky as the AP flour but I went ahead and balled them as best  I could and put them to sleep.  I plan to bake tomorrow night and will update you. 

Will also be trying a new Primo oven setup using Hog's idea of putting coals on a pan as a ceiling for my mini oven.  Hope to not have a disasterous bake.  >:D
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 26, 2010, 11:41:08 AM
Ok Scott, just wanted to update you on my results.  The pies I made last night had very tender crusts, almost too tender.   They were excellent, especially the caputo pie.  It gave me a new appreciation for the flour.

The tenderness I got was definitely due to the high amount of oil I used (at least 3%) and the minimal kneading technique.  For the future I will leave out the oil and just minimally knead to see the difference between the 2.   I prefer a bit more chew than I got but at least the pies were not leathery like some of my previous pies.   So I may incorporate a bit more kneading or a few stretch and folds. 

Either way though, I was very pleasantly surprised with the new softer texture.   I also noted that the dough stretched out very easily and exhibited minimal pull back after placing the stretched skin on the peel.  Every dough was easy to handle despite the reduction in hydration ratios.

Now I know how some of you guys can make pizzas with such low hydration rates (60's) and still get a moist crumb. 

I will say that with this technique (and perhaps the added oil), the dough felt a lot more elastic than I normally get and may be hard for some to handle. 

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: sear on May 26, 2010, 01:12:43 PM
does the crust have any crunch to it usually ?
all my high temp short cook time pies were all soft
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on May 26, 2010, 03:34:35 PM
Tranman, looking very good.

As you discovered, you will want to fine tune the knead time/oil content to adjust for desired tenderness. Just because my 'magic' threshold is 2 minutes, doesn't mean yours has to be.  In fact, I'm sure you'll want different knead times for different flours. I just wanted you to gain an understanding of the kneading 'equivalence' of cold fermentation and the toughening aspects of overkneading. Which, I think you did :)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 26, 2010, 04:06:22 PM
Scott, though I didn't mention it earlier, you did just elevate my pizza making to the next level. Just when I thought I had it worked out, I get to go back to square one and start all over again, so thanks for that. ;)

Sear, depends on the type of flour I use and hydration rates. BF/HG flour I get a definite (and desired) crunch, AP/caputo not so much. If the hydration is rather high, the rim will be crunchy when it first comes out of the oven, but after sitting for about 5 min on the rack, the rim becomes soft again. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 29, 2010, 05:14:52 PM
OK while fooling around with another minimal kneading technique today, I caught a 2nd break using Caputo.  I did not overknead today and left out the oil as well and  I made one of my best tasting pies yet.  I would have to say it is definitely my 2nd best and close to my "perfect" pie I have mentioned before.

The crazy thing about this pie was that it was just an experimental last minute idea.  Being less than satisfied with last night's bake, I decided to bake again this afternoon.  I was already baking 2 NY'ers and experimenting with ADY, so I decide why not and give Caputo plus minimal kneading another whirl.

This dough was an emergency dough and was baked only 2 hours after it was prepared.  This pie was made with 100% Caputo Pizzeria flour with 50%+ starter, and a hydration ratio of about 68%.  90% of the flour was mixed in and the dough was rush proofed covered out in the sunlight (100F) for 1 hour.  It was then kneaded for another 2 mins or so with a bit more flour added until it felt "right".  I balled it and covered again and it sat in a semi shaded area covered to finish proofing for another hour.  If I had to guess the temp was around 90F+.  The doughball probably rose about 50%+ during the short proof.

It opened easily and baked in the home oven on firebricks at 800F for about 1 min and 30s.  Then rimmed against the broiler to finish.  The texture and taste was fantastic. 

It blew away the 2 NY pies that I made just minutes before using ADY.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 29, 2010, 05:16:54 PM
Sorry for the dirty finger shot!  >:D  Oh yeah I forgot.  The crust had a nice slight crunch to it and the inside was soft and tender with a slight chew to it.

A few more pics.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 29, 2010, 05:23:01 PM
does the crust have any crunch to it usually ?
all my high temp short cook time pies were all soft

Sear to try and answer your question again, this caputo pie had a crunch to the rim even after resting on a rack for 5 min.  The hydration rate was 67%

Minutes earlier I made 2 NY pies with a HR of 67% using HG BR.  All 3 were same day pies.  The NY'ers were baked at a temp of 770-780 for the same amount of time and "rimmed" against the broiler in the same fashion.

Being HG BF, I would have bet money the NY'er would have had more of a crunch.  They did initially when first out of the oven, but then softened within 5 mins.  The caputo pie did not.

The caputo pie was made using yet another different experimental technique and yielded better results.  Plus the caputo had 50% starter whereas the NY'ers had about 1% ADY.  It was possibly the starter and or the kneading technique that gave me a better pie with the caputo. 

I'm gonna have to eat my words about saying I didn't notice much of a difference with caputo flour last week. I'm beginning to see the difference.   :-[
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: brayshaw on May 29, 2010, 05:24:51 PM
Very, very nice Tranman!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 29, 2010, 10:24:06 PM
Very, very nice Tranman!

Thanks Brady!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: artigiano on June 02, 2010, 12:27:52 AM
Scott, I feel the same on some respects with Reinhardt.  I love the bread bakers apprentice for its information and photos but I dont know how Reinhardt expects and evenly cooked loaf of bread in 25 or 30 mins at 400 -500 degrees.. we are not talking about pizza which its thin.. its a loaf of bread.  I have had to tweak a lot of his recipes so I dont think I would look to him for any pizza advice, but thats just me.  I Made some pizzas in the home oven with Caputo tonite too with nice results.. but I agree nothing majorally different that our American flours.  I really think that its best suited for a high temperature application, but I use it in the house since I have a 55 lb. bag and I think its a healthier flour since not bromated and milled using old world techniques.

* sorry I jumped into that part of the conversation late.

Al

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 02, 2010, 01:03:29 AM
Perhaps  because of my inexperience with Caputo, I wax and wane in my opinion of it.  Somedays, I make pizzas with caputo and it blows away the NY'ers made with HG bromate flours.  And then there are other days like this past weekend where I made 1 pie with caputo and another with bleached AP flour and the taste and texture were nearly identical.

Both good pies made using the same recipes and hand kneading techniques.  The AP flour pie came out with a higher hydration ratio, but you get the point.   So is it technique or is it the flour??   ???

First pie (pepperoni) is made using 100% AP flour and 2nd pie is 100% Caputo Pizzeria 00.  Third pic shows the crumb of AP (top) and Caputo (bottom).

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: artigiano on June 02, 2010, 11:43:57 PM
Tranman, both look great to me!  I agree with you in that there is not a huge difference between the two flours in a home setting.  If I am using the WFO then I can definately see that the Caputo holds up much better with 900 degree heat.

Al
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 03, 2010, 12:36:24 AM
Thx Al and that is an interesting concept concerning caputo holding up better under high heat.  Thanks for the insight.  Though I don't have a WFO, i do have a coal fire ceramic grill/oven that I can get up to temps. It may be interesting to compare same formula pies between the ceramic oven (900f) vs the home oven (900).
 
I can push the pizza stone to 900 whether in the ceramic oven or home oven under the broiler but it's not the same as a WFO since the upper and lower temps are not evenly matched.   
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2010, 01:43:10 AM
Just made another step forward tonight.   After months of toiling I have finally achieved what I once thought was IMPOSSIBLE!  Making a [email protected] Nearlypolitan Pie in the home oven.  I almost nearly gave up on it several times, the bugger!

Here it is folks.....Introducing the "Almostpolitan Pies".  Hand kneaded (as usual) and baked in the home oven using broiler shenanigans. 

ALL dough management credit goes to TOBY.  Thanks for the detailed posts Toby.

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: satgan on June 05, 2010, 06:43:28 AM
Very nice ,Tranman

what recipe did you use ?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: norma427 on June 05, 2010, 06:50:13 AM
Just made another step forward tonight.   After months of toiling I have finally achieved what I once thought was IMPOSSIBLE!  Making a [email protected] Nearlypolitan Pie in the home oven. 

Here it is folks.....Introducing the "Almostpolitan Pies".  Hand kneaded (as usual) and baked in the home oven using broiler shenanigans. 

ALL dough management credit goes to TOBY.  Thanks for the detailed posts!



Tranman,

Your "Almostpolitan Pies" looks great.   ;D  Job well done. Toby also helped me a lot in the past.

I you want to read more about oven shenanigans with ovens here are some articles. One of the posters on these articles might be someone you will recognize.

Just go down the page in these links to read if you are interested.

To read more click on continued reading at the bottom of the article.

An Interesting 'Experiment' Demonstrating How Pizza Blisters Form

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/
   
To read more click on continues reading at the bottom of the article.

My Pie Monday (Tuesday Edition): Nathan's Amazing-Looking Conventional-Oven Pizzas

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/06/  

Norma
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2010, 08:44:36 AM
Very nice ,Tranman

what recipe did you use ?

Thx Satgan.  The actual recipe is one I came up with.  I have been doing that for last couple of months.  Recipes are easy to make up.  It's a mixture of flour, water, starter, and salt.  The tricky part is the dough management or handling technique.  The pies are inspired by member Infoodel (Toby) and his thread "Nearlypolitan" found here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html).  The dough technique can be found in Toby's thread.  He spells it out step by step. 

Of the 3 pies, 2 are made with caputo, and one is 1/2 and 1/2 AP flour and HG flour. 
Scott123, can you pick out the HG flour.  This should be easy for you. 

Thanks for the links Norma, I'll have a look at them.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2010, 09:15:38 AM
Norma thank you for the kind words & links to the articles.  Some fun reading for me.  Looks like Toby has been busy.  I especially like the article on blister formation or leoparding.  Interesting to know fermentation seems to work against leoparding. 

As for the 2nd article, it's obvious Adam uses the broiler.  He could actually get more even browning/leoparding of the crust if he uses the "rimming" technique I've posted on the forum several times. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: norma427 on June 05, 2010, 09:54:53 AM
Norma thank you for the links to the articles.  Some fun reading for me.  Looks like Toby has been busy.  I especially like the article on blister formation or leoparding.  Interesting to know fermentation seems to work against leoparding. 

As for the 2nd article, it's obvious Adam uses the broiler.  He could actually get more even browning/leoparding of the crust if he uses the "rimming" technique I've posted on the forum several times. 

Tranman,

If you look though the archives there, you will find more.  Just click on a posters name and it will take you to their ideas. There are even some videos if you look long enough.  Most of the articles have are different things they have tried.  Some of the posters have great ideas.  I am not at the point of experimenting with those ideas, but find them interesting.  I am still learning about dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: satgan on June 05, 2010, 10:44:09 AM
thank you!
tranman
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 05, 2010, 11:26:11 AM
Of the 3 pies, 2 are made with caputo, and one is 1/2 and 1/2 AP flour and HG flour. 
Scott123, can you pick out the HG flour.  This should be easy for you. 

Easy? Really?  :P

First of all, you're not giving me a crumb shot, which, imo, makes it far more difficult, plus assuming your HG flour is in the 14% realm and the AP is about 11, that would put the 50/50 blend right smack dab in the caputo protein realm.  There's milling differences and most likely differing extensibilities, but, from what I can tell, the only major difference is the malt.

I'm still going to guess, though :)

The blend has to either be #1 or #3.  3 looks the most different, but that could be a changing oven environment.  It's tough.  Malt will encourage more even browning (#1) but it will also accelerate fermentation (the slightly weaker gluten structure of #3).  It's so close I could flip a coin.

Hmmm... I guess #3 looks too much like the 'odd man out.'  So, I'll go with 3.

 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 05, 2010, 02:41:31 PM
Scott, the blend is #1, but you are spot on as usual in your reasoning.

Originally I had planned to bake these in my MBE (mini black egg).  Due to running out of time, I didn't finish the oven till 10pm last night.  The dough had to be cooked, so I fired up the MBE for a test run.

Needing a plan B in my pocket, I went ahead and fired up the home oven as well.  As it turned out, I was having trouble getting temps up on the MBE for several reasons, so I baked the first and 2nd pie in the home oven at 850 under the broiler and rimmed them to finish in my usual fashion.   I finally got a lot of leoparding which I will attribute to the dough technique rather than the ingredients or oven.

All the pies, including the blend (pie #1) had a moist soft crumb which I do like.  A little chew but not too much.

Meanwhile the MBE was still heating up but never reached temps that I wanted even after an hour.  I had a max temp of 700F and it was only in one spot.  Wanting to test it anyway, I loaded pie #3 (caputo) into the MBE and let it bake for about a minute.  I notice that this pie had gotten more rise than the previous caputo pie in the oven  but had no browning on top or bottom, so I took the pie in to finish under the oven broiler. 

So the color of pie #1 being darker than #2 and #3 would suggest HG flour while the similar patterns of Pie #1 and #2 would suggest they were baked under similar conditions while pie #3 had a slightly different oven/cooking set up.

So yes Scott, you are not crazy and your reasoning is sound as usual.   ;D
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 05, 2010, 05:42:44 PM
Drats! I guess I probably should have flipped a coin after all  :-D
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 11, 2010, 12:44:35 AM
Made a very tasty pie tonight.  One with HG BF and one with caputo.  The caputo was better tasting but i think it was the cheese.   The HGBF had a mix of boar's head and belgioso while the caputo was a margherita with Precious Ciliengini fresh mozz in water.  It's those small pearls.

Precious by itself is rather bland and unimpressive.  But add sea salt to the water and let it sit for a day.  Wow what a difference.  If it's too salty than pour out some or all of the salt water and add bottled water and let it sit for another day. 

I'm impress with how this cheese melts and taste (hot and cooled) baked with a bit of olive oil.  I've been using Costco's Belgioso for a long time now but no more.  Trader Joes and now Precious is a better way to go until I find something better. 

Belgioso is pretty bland as well and is improved by adding sea salt but i don't like the way it melts or cools.  It's very rubbery after it cools.  Take a look at the last 2 pies in reply #61 above. That's belgioso.  

Anyways, this pie was quite tasty.  It was a 200gm ball baked up to a 10" pie.  I was suprise to have eaten about 1/3 of the HGBF pie and all of the caputo pie myself.    :P

Pics of the same pie.  2nd pic is just topped with basil and more EVOO.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: mako on June 16, 2010, 04:27:40 AM
Great thread, guys. Every time I start to get to a point where I think 'these little things aren't worth worrying about, simplify and it'll all work out' I read something like this, and think of about 10 more variables I should be tracking. Thanks for inspiring the desire for experimentation, Tranman -- or, maybe, curse you for fostering another unhealthy obsession.  :)

Anyway, that Chris Bianco video is a total mind-blower. I've had doughs that were extensible like that, but they were also made of a superglue-like substance, totally impossible to handle, and they'd never come off the peel, and they'd tear in half if you looked at them funny. I've never had something that stretches like that and is actually workable. Going for less gluten development instead of more is really strange -- I'll have to give it a try.

But first I have to build a refractory top for my LBE. I said I'd do that before I made another pizza. (I have to make deals like that with myself or I'll never stop.)
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 16, 2010, 06:53:41 AM
Thanks for inspiring the desire for experimentation, Tranman -- or, maybe, curse you for fostering another unhealthy obsession.

you're welcome.  I try...I do  ;)

Going for less gluten development instead of more is really strange -- I'll have to give it a try.

Yes, to me it was initially somewhat counterintuitive but it works.  When I first started making pizza, I assumed that  I wasn't kneading enough b/c I would read about knead times using mechanical mixers.  The thought was that if a mixer is more efficient than mixing by hand, I need to mix for just as long or longer.  In my case, the longer I mixed the drier the crumb became.  I then counter balanced that by increasing my hydration ratio's.  Higher hydration ratios in turn required more kneading to get it to the "proper feel and condition".  So I was gradually increasing my hydration ratios without a better crumb.  My hydration ratios were getting into the 80%+ and I would still occasionally get a dry crumb. I had no clue what was going on and chalked it up to another pizza mystery or the high altitude environment.  I also did not understand how everyone else was working with a 60%+ hydration ratio. 

That was until Scott123 help open my eyes.  I have since lowered my amount of kneading dramatically with better results.  I now knead very minimally and rather gently.  And it's only to incorporate residual flour or to get it mixed well.  I do not knead with the goal in mind to develop gluten.  Bulk, cold ferment, and proof times will develop gluten naturally. 

Even dimpled or cottage cheese looking dough can be taken to that nice satiny smooth look by just letting it rest for 10min or so.  Then do just a few folds and the look and feel of the dough has dramatically changed without any extra kneading. 

I have also learned that if you knead the dough while it is wet, it is more forgivable if you accidentally over knead.  In a drier state over kneading can really develop that gluten quite easily and give too much chew to the crust.  Anyways, these are just a few things I've been learning.  I hope these tips are useful for those hand kneading. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 19, 2010, 10:56:19 PM
I just tried a <2 minute mix tonight. I must admit I was sceptical at first but overall I'm impressed with the results. The crumb was less chewy and softer - slightly 'bready' but not in a bad way.
I tip my hat to Chau and Scott for opening my eyes to another technique. It may not completely replace my usual kneading regime - I definitely think it may require a touch more kneading for Caputo (compared to high gluten) and possibly a few additional strokes about half an hour or so into bulk ferment but it's certainly a useful tool/concept. Thanks!

FP
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 12:10:16 AM
I absolutely agree Toby.  As I stated in our PM's, I've notice the same about caputo and other lower protein flours.  I'm very new to this less kneading method so I have just kneaded less than normal, which I call minimal kneading, but I do understand the term can be rather subjective.   I have notice just as you described the texture, so for lower protein flours, I will knead a bit more or do some stretch and folds at the beginning of proofing if the dough feels a bit slack.  Either that or lower your hydration ratio a bit.  Do post up some pics Toby as you are (IMO) one of the most talented pie makers on the forum.  I absolutely love looking at pictures of your pies. 

BTW, those nice looking pies I made a few posts up, I made with a combination of your guidelines you posted and minimal (or less) kneading.  You'll find this regimen familiar.  ;D

The above pies were made using this method.

-dissolve salt, starter (yeast) in water
-stir in 75-80% of flour and mix until even.  This was done with a fork.  Dough mixture was mixed in the bowl only.
-Rest 20min
-slowly mix in remaining flour. Again done in bowl and only to an even mix and not more.  This was completed in 1 min?   
-Rest 20min
-kneaded (minimally) for 1-2min ending with 3 cycles or so of stretch and fold.  This is done until a "proper" feel to the dough is achieved.
-Bulk rise 3 hours
-Stretch and fold a few more times and balled
-proofed for 4-5 hours
-Bake
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 12:22:51 AM
Here ya go (bear in mind it was quick test dough - so no big cat patterns ;) ) but I think this gives some idea of oven spring and crumb.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 20, 2010, 04:32:26 AM
Yes, the 'minimal' part of minimal kneading is definitely relative.  The most important thing to remember is that cold fermentation biochemically kneads.  For me, cold ferments seem to be equivalent to about 5 minutes of kneading, so if I normally knead a dough for 10 minutes in a same day scenario, if I cold ferment it, I'll knead it for 5.

With my very high and reactive gluten bromated All Trumps, though, that's about a 5 minute knead total, so, with a cold ferment, I knead just until mixed (<2 minutes)

I tip my hat to Chau and Scott for opening my eyes to another technique.

And just to make sure everyone gets proper credit, I'll tip my hat to Matthew and Andre, who, when discussing Bianco's extreme extensibility (as shown in the Kimmel video) informed me that lower hydration doughs can be that extensible.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10316.20.html

It was that discussion that led me to try less kneading to obtain greater extensibility. I also tip my hat to Peter, who confirmed cold fermentation's biochemical kneading aspect, as well as turned me on to Evelyn Slomon's very appropriate description of 'cottage cheese' for pre cold fermentation high gluten flour dough. When I talk about cottage cheese, that's straight from her (via Peter).


Oh, and who's this 'Chau' person?  ;D Is one of our members giving out their real name privately but not publicly?! Are we public folk not worthy of that level of familiarity? :P
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 10:33:19 AM
Oh, and who's this 'Chau' person?   Is one of our members giving out their real name privately but not publicly?! Are we public folk not worthy of that level of familiarity?

Scott you constantly have me laughing.  Pizzamaking and this forum is a great form of therapy for me (not that I need any)!  :-D
Seriously Scott, I've been hestitant to reveal my true identity b/c I've been trying to reinvent myself like the celebrity rappers.  I want to change my forum name to Jackie Tran and it's in the works so PLZ no one steal that!  :P

Toby, I should stop using the terms "minimal" and "over-kneading" as both are very relative and subjective.  I should just say that I knead a lot less than I use to.   I promised myself I would take at least a 3 day break from making pizza but now you've got me mixing dough up on Father's Day. So 

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY all!

So I made 2 doughballs, 1 with Caputo (red bag) Chef's flour and the other with bromated HG flour using a version of your guidelines and less kneading. I timed everything and took  pics to document the process.
 
1. measure room temp water, add starter/ADY, salt and stir to dissolve.
2. add ~50% of flour to above mixture and stir with a fork for 30 secs to form an even batter.
3. add 1/2 of remaining flour (so thats 75% of total flour) and stir to mix evenly another 30s.
4. Rest for 10-20min.  I rested about 15min.
5. slowly add/knead in remaining 25% of flour.  I dumped the dough onto my working surface and dumped the remaining flour next to it.  I dip the dough into the flour and start to knead it in.  As soon as the dough gets wet/moist/sticky again, I redunk.  This is repeated until all the flour is used up or until I achieve a certain dough condition.  This process took about 3 mins to do.  I form it into a rough ball.  At this point it's dimpled looking.  Pics to follow.
6. Rest another 10-20min.
7. Do about 4 stretch and folds and then ball it.
8. Bulk rise for ___ and then room ferment for ____.  I left out the times b/c it' secret and proprietary.   JK, these times depend on the amount of yeast you are using. 
9. I also plan on reballing after the bulk rise.

Toby let me know if you classify that as minimal kneading, less kneading, or in line with what you do.


Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 10:36:22 AM
First pic is the caputo ball (pic 1) after step #5.  Pic #2 is the bromated HG flour ball after step #5.  Both have a different hydration ratio, but the look and feel is almost identical. 

 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 10:40:07 AM
Next pics are of the caputo ball alone. 
First pic is the ball after it was turned out from the bowl after the 2nd rest period (step #6)
2nd pic shows the first step of stretch and fold.  That's the first fold
3rd pic shows the 2nd fold and so on.
I do 1 big stretch, 2 folds, and two more folds.  Pinch the ends shut.   Fold and ball twice with the ball in my hands.  Pinch the creases shut. That's it for step #7.

If the dough feels a little wet at this point, I'll usually add just a pinch of bench flour to the outside or you can knead in a bit more flour.  This is done by feel.  Folks you need to experiment with different hydration levels and take notes or pay attention to the finishing moisture of the crumb and then adjust. Of course this is just one step/variable in the entire process.  There's the resting phase (depending on the amount of yeast you use) & the baking process (time and temp dependent).  Start changing variables in any of these stages and you get a different pie.  It's tough but you have to find the happy medium/zone for all the stages and then bring them all together.  After a few hundred pies, I'm sure everything will start to make sense.  With a lot of practice, help from the forum, and a bit of luck/magic anyone can make good pizza. lol
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 10:42:59 AM
Here's what my balls look like after the above step and 2 fold and ball. :-D  This goes into an oiled bowl and will ferment for 2 hours.  I'll likely reball again and bulk for another 2hours and then bake. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 20, 2010, 10:51:39 AM
Tranman, I'm curious, do you ever have issues with forming irregular/squarish shaped pies or are they always pretty circular? It's just a theory, but I think stretch and folds might align the gluten in a somewhat squarish manner. I had major shape problems with the square tupperware containers I was using, but since I switched to round proofing pans, the shapes of my skins have improved.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 11:01:32 AM
Tranman, I'm curious, do you ever have issues with forming irregular/squarish shaped pies or are they always pretty circular? It's just a theory, but I think stretch and folds might align the gluten in a somewhat squarish manner. I had major shape problems with the square tupperware containers I was using, but since I switched to round proofing pans, the shapes of my skins have improved.

Scott, I limit my stretch and fold to 4x or as I would call it 1 cycle.  When I did more I had stretching issues.  I should say that stretch and fold is NOT needed for pizza.  It's a bread making technique that I used to creat BIG air bubbles.  I may totally be wrong about it's purpose but that's what I use it for.  But it really only works or has this effect if done later in the game after the dough and gluten has set up a bit.  Do it too late in the game and it's disasterous.  You won't be able to open up the dough even at room temps without tearing.

When opening the dough I don't notice any issues with getting irregular shape pies BUT it may be because I've done it this way for awhile now.  My dough usually always open up circular but then again it may just be my ability to do so.  So if there is any issue I think it's taken care of as I'm opening the dough. 

I can definitely see a square container causing an issue as you've mention before much of the gluten forms or is set during the cold fermentation.

Also b/c I ball the dough a few times after the stretch and folds, I believe that helps to reachieve the roundness of the gluten structures?  I'm totally talking out the rear end at this point.  :-D  The bulk rise and ferment period also helps realign the gluten too I believe.

Chau
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 11:03:22 AM
You might find this discussion of 'aligning gluten' useful (some of the applications and equally some of the misconceptions):

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18266/aligning-gluten-strands

FP
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 11:06:43 AM
You might find this discussion of 'aligning gluten' useful (some of the applications and equally some of the misconceptions):

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18266/aligning-gluten-strands

FP

Thanks FP, I'll check it out.  I honestly think that if I left the stretch and folds out and just did several cycles of fold and ball that it would have the same effect.  I don't think where I added stretch and fold is really either detrimental or beneficial.  Like I said, it's just something I've done way back when and habits can be hard to break.

Chau
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 11:18:46 AM
Thanks FP, I'll check it out.  I honestly think that if I left the stretch and folds out and just did several cycles of fold and ball that it would have the same effect.  I don't think where I added stretch and fold is really either detrimental or beneficial.  Like I said, it's just something I've done way back when and habits can be hard to break.

Chau
Yeah I understand. I used to go S&F crazy during bulk ferment until the dough wouldn't take any more (bad habit I picked up from breadmaking). I've backed off recently although I will still use a 'bowl fold' once in a while (similar to running dough through a fork mixer one revolution).
FWIW I never reball. I've got no problems with dough balls getting a little flat during proofing - just makes the final shaping/stretching that much easier!
FP
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 11:55:31 AM
Toby do you (re)ball between bilk rise and proofing?  I may skip that today since I balled it prior to bulk rising. I'm indecisive at this point.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 11:59:49 AM
Toby do you (re)ball between bilk rise and proofing?  I may skip that today since I balled it prior to bulk rising. I'm indecisive at this point.
I'm confused - how did you ball your dough prior to bulk fermentation? Or am I misunderstanding the term 'balled'? (I take it to mean shaping individual dough balls).
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 12:08:53 PM
Toby b/c I'm still experimenting, each batch of dough typically makes one doughball around 200-250gm. I usually make 2 different batches each time I bake testing various recipes, ingredients, and methods.

When I finish kneading, there's no need to divide the single doughball so I go ahead and ball it then. I fold it in my palms turning it into itself and pinching the crease. I do this 2-3 times and it is balled. This is done before bulk rising. I know other members typically knead, bulk, divide, ball, then proof or cold ferment.  I knead, ball, and bulk/proof with sometimes reballing between bulk and proof.  Just wondering if I should leave out balling b/t bulk and proofing.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 12:13:50 PM
Toby b/c I'm still experimenting, each batch of dough typically makes one doughball around 200-250gm. I usually make 2 different batches each time I bake testing various recipes, ingredients, and methods.

When I finish kneading, there's on need to divide the single doughball so I go ahead and ball it then. I fold it in my palms turning it into itself and pinching the crease. I do this 2-3 times and it is balled. This is done before bulk rising. I know other members typically knead, bulk, divide, ball, then proof or cold ferment.  I knead, ball, and bulk/proof with sometimes reballing between bulk and proof.  Just wondering if I should leave out balling b/t bulk and proofing.

Aaaaah I see! thank you for explaining.  1 ball batch - got it :) Hmmm don't know - I guess there's no real distinction between a bulk ferment and a proof in this particular case - it's all just a rise :)  Reball only if you think you absolutely need to. If it's only a short overall rise time (<5 hours) then I wouldn't bother but if you're shooting for a long fermentation then reballing may be called for.
 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 05:40:09 PM
Good tip FP.  I ended up skipping the 2nd balling.   The dough ended up overfermenting a bit and the bottoms burned too quickly.  I suspect it was due to overfermentation as the dough was a bit "poofy", a little too easy to handle, and the premature burning.   

I also suspect this b/c it was baked in the MBE, which i just had a successful bake the other night and I hadn't change the set up.   But here are the pics anyway. 

The first pics are of the HG flour NY.  The dough opened up easily and handled quite nicely.  A little poofy, so I'm beginning to learn the limits of my new technique and dough.  The crust rise in the MBE was amazing.  This was around a 240gm ball stretched to a 12" pie.   The hearth temp was 750-780F and the bottom was toast in under a minute.  The top was still white so I had to rim it against the broiler in the home oven to finish.  Even though the bottom burnt, I went ahead and use the broiler to see what the finished pie may have looked like if it was baked entirely in the MBE. 

The crust had a nice rise and look to it.  The texture was good as well, so the dough technique is sound.  I just have to cut back on my yeast amount and proofing/fermenting times. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 05:44:11 PM
Here's the caputo pie.   I lowered the hearth to 650ish and the bottom charred much sooner than expected.  Again likely due to over proofing for the amount of starter used. 

Also had to broiler in the home oven to finish this one.  I could eat more of this pie though since I was on the look out for burning.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: foolishpoolish on June 20, 2010, 05:49:15 PM
Wow love those results.  :chef: Looks like the HG had some serious oven spring there!  Nice work.

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 20, 2010, 06:31:18 PM
Thanks Toby and thanks for your help and guidance. As you may not know but you've played a big part in what I do now. 

I also read through that link.  Some interesting theories going on there and I'm not sure if it made gluten formation/matrix any easier to understand or just more confusing.   :-D  I am aligning myself with the camp that believes that "our ability to influence the orientation of gluten strands through physical manipulation of the dough is limited."

Also depends on where in the process we decide to manipulate gluten.  With any length of rest, it seems like the matrix reorganizes itself.  An example of this is when I do a stretch and fold and purposefully trap airbubbles in the dough.  I can see and feel the bubbles there.  But with any amount of rest period, the big bubbles seem to be absorbed into the dough.  I believe this happens b/c as the dough rest it seems to  get more wet.

Now if after the rest period, I incorporate some stretch and folds, the big bubbles tend to remain and not get absorbed.  Weird huh?  Back some time i did an experiment involving stretch and folds. 

2 balls from 1 batch of dough cold fermented for 2 days.  One ball was taken out the fridge and stretched and folded after day 1 and after an hour's time of cooling on the counter.  This same ball was stretched and folded on day 2 prior to a warm proofing.  Both had nice oven spring, but the ball with stretch and folds had nice BIG round airbubbles that was tented up.  While the other had airbubbles that were collapse and looked "toothy".

So the stretch and folds do seem to stregthen the gluten matrix by reorganizing or disorganizing the strands.  I don't know.   I dont know the mechanics, physics, etc of how these things work but I do have an idea of their effects on the outcome of the product. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 21, 2010, 12:02:18 AM
Chau, stretch and folds are just the equivalent of additional kneading, and because it's kneading done so late in the process where the flour has had a chance to hydrate extensively, it's superkneading.  The same with a re-ball, but to a slightly lesser extent. If you're getting toothiness/weak gluten on the back end, rather than incorporating quasi-kneading techniques mid process, just add a little more kneading at the get go.

And, don't forget, toothiness is a classic overfermenting symptom. Peter talked about the impact of protease activity the other day.  For longer/warmer ferments, the gluten framework is literally being digested and that's where you get the uneven bubbly/knobby/toothy effect. Now, from the research that I've done, malt flour has more protease than wheat flour, so protease impact should be greater on HG doughs than it is on Caputo doughs, but... if you cold ferment Caputo long enough, it will start to self-digest.

Lastly, even with proper fermentation, a malted HG flour based dough can't handle high temps without burning.  You're always going to want to dial the heat back as compared to the Caputo.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 21, 2010, 12:41:18 PM
Good to know Scott.  I'm considering doing a test batch with and without the stretch and folds and paying attention to the differences in the way the dough opens and if they indeed do influence the formation of big bubbles to the extent that I think they do.  For the batch that doesn't get stretch and folds I'll just do a little additional kneading and/or balling on the front end. 

I have done this experiment once before that was long ago when I knew a lot less about dough and pizza making. 

And, don't forget, toothiness is a classic overfermenting symptom. Peter talked about the impact of protease activity the other day.  For longer/warmer ferments, the gluten framework is literally being digested and that's where you get the uneven bubbly/knobby/toothy effect. Now, from the research that I've done, malt flour has more protease than wheat flour, so protease impact should be greater on HG doughs than it is on Caputo doughs, but... if you cold ferment Caputo long enough, it will start to self-digest.

Hmmm interesting but something still doesn't make sense.  2 of my all time favorite pies that had a very light and airy structure had some toothiness to it.  The first was my perfect pie I've posted a lot about.  You can't see toothiness in that one because it had some additional stretch and folds.  However, his twin (without the additional stretch and folds) from the same batch which I can't seem to find the pictures to now definitely had a lot of toothiness.  That particular batch was overfermented BUT didn't prematurely burn.  Why?  That batch had 10% starter and 1/2 tsp ADY per 2 balls or 1/4 tsp per 300gm ball.  They were cold fermented for 2 days and rush proofed at high temps.   One ball became my all time perfect pie while the other wasn't bad either had a very toothy crumb structure.  Both were baked at a hearth temp of ~600F and displayed NO signs of burning (for being overfermented).

OK now my 2nd best tasting crust (light and airy) and also happens to displays the toothy crumb.  It's seen in the last few pics in post #52 (last 2 of 3 pics) in this thread.  That particularly pie had 50% starter and was rush proof for 2 hours at 100F+. 

So yes Scott, both of my favorite pies were warm proofed and likely overfermented but neither burned like my other recent overfermented pies (MBE thread and reply # 91 in this thread).  So apparently the toothiness may or may not happen before the dough gets to the point of being too sugary and prematurely burning?   If it is indeed a classic sign of overfermented dough, then why didn't my recently overfermented and prematurely burned pies display any toothiness (pics in reply #91)?

Hope that wasn't too confusing.  Thanks for any help.  BTW, I'm only trying to figure this out so that I can try to recreate my favorite pies.   Don't get me wrong here, I can (now) make soft and moist crumbs all day long.  BUT when I absolutely get it right (and it's by accidental twice now), the crust/crumb is much better.  There's just a certain texture about it.  I know what it looks like but it's hard to describe. 

Anyone know what I'm talking about here? ???

Chau
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 21, 2010, 12:54:24 PM
Lastly, even with proper fermentation, a malted HG flour based dough can't handle high temps without burning.  You're always going to want to dial the heat back as compared to the Caputo.

I'm really just experimenting and trying to possibly achieve or recreated what J. Varasano has done.  Why???  Well just to see if I can do it and to see if I can get my pizza to THAT level whatever that is.  But I think Jeff is baking with BF and not HG flour which is slightly different.  So I will keep that in mind when using malted HG flour.  Thanks again for all yor expert advice Scott.   
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 21, 2010, 06:45:12 PM
Chau, I have tremendous respect for Jeff Varasano and for all his contributions, and, should I ever make it down to Atlanta, I would love to visit his place.  If he ever wrote a book, I would be the first to buy it. That being said, the wealth of knowledge/expertise that Jeff possesses now is not the same knowledgebase he was working with five years ago when he published his pizza recipe.  At the time, he was obviously incredibly motivated, excited and energized and that zeal really shines through in the photos and the text, but, the information presented has both inconsistencies and gaps and is not the end all be all for neo-Neapolitan pizza making. It's a wonderful jumping off point for the beginner, but, for someone serious, I think there are better sources for mastering neo-Neapolitan and Neapolitan pizzamaking at home, including this site here.  If you've eaten neo-Neapolitan like Patsy's or Grimaldi's, fallen in love with it and it's your bliss, then I would take a look at Terry Deane's (tdeane) posts.  He is in a commercial environment working with a commercial oven, but you can glean a lot of information for baking at home by reading his posts. I'm sure there are other members here who are mastering/have master neo-Neapolitan pizza, but, from what I've seen, Terry seems to be kicking some serious butt in terms of open crumb structure, crunch and overall aesthetics. And, of course, on the Neapolitan side, as you well know, this site abounds with experts, both experts on the commercial side AND the home oven side.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 21, 2010, 10:42:54 PM
I'll check out Tdeane's stuff again.  I've looked at it briefly and thought he was doing NY style instead of Neo-Neapolitan.

I wonder what inconsistencies and gaps you are referring to in the info Jeff has presented.  No doubt his knowledge of pizza making and business has expanded but I seriously doubt he's making pizza much differently than he did.  I think he found his winning formula and method and has likely stuck to it making small changes to adapt to the commercial side of things. 

There may be masters of neo-neapolitan or folks that are really great at it on the site,but it seems not many willing to share info or even pics for that matter.  I'll have to look and dig again, but in the short time I've been here, the info on Neo-Neapolitan seems limited.  
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 22, 2010, 12:32:08 AM
Terry is heavily influenced by DiFara's, which is NY style with high end toppings (with some theatrics thrown in), but he also brings sourdough and a high temp coal-ish oven into the mix, which puts him pretty firmly in the Patsy's/Neo realm.

As far as neo places go, Patsy's definitely leans a bit toward the Neapolitan end with it's occasional leoparding while places like John's on Bleecker are a little more on the NY side of things.  Terry's DiFara influence puts him closer to John's than Patsy's, but it's still all firmly in the Neo-Neapolitan style, imo. But don't tell Terry he's making 'Neo-Neapolitan' pies, though. As far as he's concerned he's emulating 'True' NY Style.  It's an endearing delusion- when you live in NY for a while, it's easy to get like that, so I can completely understand :P

As far as Jeff's journey goes, take a look at his most recent pies in the gallery section of his site.  He may have started out trying to re-engineer Patsy's, but presently, he's about as Neapolitan as you can get with a deck oven.  TBH, I didn't know you could GET a pie as Neapolitan looking as that with that kind of oven. From seeing those photos and some of his recent videos, he's in a different universe than he was 5 years ago.  5 years ago he was a guy futzing around in his kitchen.  Now he's one of the top pizza makers in the U.S.

I think there's a dirth of neo-Neapolitan home pizza bakers for two reasons

1. There's not a lot of neo-Neapolitan pizzerias for people to go to and say 'wow, I have to make this.'

2. It's almost impossible to recreate the necessary oven environment without tricky oven mods or broiling pizza stones.

As far as Jeff's recipe goes, I think the most glaring omission is stone brand/size/material. Temperature is only one part of the pizza baking puzzle. Without being aware of the conductivity of your stone, it's a big guessing game. 700 with firebrick is not the same thing as 700 for fibrament, which, in turn, is not the same thing as 700 for cordierite. There's lot's of other little things that he misses the mark on, but, for me, that's the biggest.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: hotsawce on June 22, 2010, 10:30:51 AM
I wasn't aware 700 degrees on different stones were different....can you explain that a little more? What stone would be best?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 22, 2010, 09:45:51 PM
Thanks for the explanation Scott, it's helpful to know who leans which way.  Some day, I'll have to make the pilgrimage and try the different pizzerias myself.

As far as Jeff's recent pies, are these the photos you are referring to?
http://www.varasanos.com/Photos950/ (http://www.varasanos.com/Photos950/)

If so, I do see what you mean.  There is more leoparding than his past pies.  More burnt spots.  He says the Da Michelle pie is the authentic target.  IMO, some of his recent stuff looks more like Toby's pies.  >:D

I also hope no one takes this the wrong way, but when I first visited his website I was blown away by the pictures.  I'm now making pies with a similar look.  Nice crunchy outside and soft on the inside.  Ofcourse I'm using a variation of his recipe and methods, but still it's achievable (with some forum help  :angel:).

I'm not so blown away by his pics anymore but I would definitely love to taste any one of the 8 or 9 elite pies in the country.  It must really be something. 

Also on his recipe site, and as hotsawce posted before, there are pictures of famous pies around the world.  The Trianon and Da Michelle.  I've posted this before without any response so I hope someone has wondered the same or has a good explanation.  Both are world famous, so I'm wondering why the deflated rims?  What is that from?  Overfermentation?   I would think that if you are world famous that everything should be spot on including a puffy (and perhaps crunchy) rim.  Am I wrong in saying this?

HS, I'm not sure that 700 degrees are different on different stones, but maybe a clearer way to state this is that different stones bake differently at the same temps due to the different properties.  A pie will burn much faster on my Primo glazed ceramic stone at 700 than it will on firebricks.  I like baking pizza on firebricks.   

Any feedback is much appreciated. 

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: scott123 on June 23, 2010, 04:17:40 AM
I wasn't aware 700 degrees on different stones were different....can you explain that a little more? What stone would be best?

Because of the differing conductivities and heat capacities, you can produce almost identical classic, slightly charred, NY style pizzas in the same amount of time (4-6 min.) with the following materials/temps

1/2" iron slab- 450
1 1/2" cordierite (commercial deck oven) 500
1 1/4" soapstone - 525
1" cordierite kiln shelves - 550
1 1/8" split firebrick - 600
1/2" cordierite (with feet/old stone/pampered chef, etc) - 625
1/2" dense quarry tiles* - 625
3/4" fibrament - 625
1/4" porous quarry tiles* - 700

*Quarry tiles can vary in composition (as can firebrick, but that varies less).  Density/heft and lack of porosity are good indicators of a more conductive tile. Note: these are, for the most part very rough figures and most likely have a decent margin of error (+/- 25 deg.).  The order of the list, though, from most conductive, to least conductive- that shouldn't change. Also, this is just from a hearth perspective. Dome temps and top browning is another discussion.

If you really want to expand your understanding of conductivity and heat capacity, here's one of the best lessons that I've found on the subject:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/25717-understanding-stovetop-cookware/

That's conductivity with a focus on cookware. If you want to put traditional stone hearth materials in the mix, here's the specs for fibrament and cordierite:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5645.0.html

And here's the numbers for soapstone:

http://www.tulikivi.com/www/kotien.nsf/WWWTakka/The%20characteristics%20of%20soapstone

As far as the 'best' stone is concerned, I'm a huge proponent of 1 1/4"  soapstone slab.  With the exception of iron/steel, which, to be honest, isn't all that viable as a pizza stone, there's nothing more conductive and there's nothing with a higher heat capacity.   It's conductive enough to pre-heat quickly/evenly and transfer a substantial amount of heat to the crust, while not being so conductive that it loses heat when you open the oven door. It's also incredibly resistant to thermal shock and lasts through years of heat/cold cycles. Soapstone and cordierite kiln shelves are the only two stones that, without oven modification or broiler technique, give you a quick baking time/proper amount of puffiness in a typical 550 deg. home oven. Everything else extends the baking clock, which in turn, decreases quality.

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: hotsawce on June 24, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
That was ridiculously helpful. It should be stickied!

I suppose that's why those using the broiler method with a cast iron pizza pan...not a skillet, are getting beautifully charred bottoms and pies cooked in 3 minutes.

Great, great stuff...now I need to find where I can get soapstone....
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: vbinnc on June 27, 2010, 12:47:50 PM
Can anyone advise me as to where I might find a slab of soapstone, 15"x 21"x 1 1/4" and what it would cost?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: hotsawce on June 27, 2010, 01:43:53 PM
I thought this would be a great post to follow Scott's explanation of conduction.

Check out this Margherita pie made under the broiler using a Cast Iron Pizza Pan....not a skillet. This would support the data he provided, and boy does the pie look awesome.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/my-pie-monday-adam-lindsleys-cast-iron-margherita-pizza.html

Does anyone else have a cast iron pizza pan that would be willing to try this under the broiler to see if we can achieve consistent results? perhaps the flatness of the pan puts it at the perfect distance from the top of the broiler, where the cast iron pan upside down may raise it too far upward?

***Does anyone have a cast iron pizza pan that we can measure the thickness of? Perhaps we could all collaborate and make a push for a cast iron pizza stone to be made....I'm not sure if the 1/2" thickness is the best, but maybe we could have a few samples made by a reputable company and test them out?
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 02, 2010, 10:01:26 PM
Made a light and airy crumb using caputo tonight.  Pie was purdy good. 
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: jever4321 on August 02, 2010, 10:21:30 PM
Those Look AWESOME JT!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2010, 10:55:05 PM
Jackie Tran,

Your light and airy crumb look great with Caputo!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 02, 2010, 11:15:13 PM
Thx Jever and Norma.  I'm glad I was able to do it.  ;D If you look at the very first pie of this thread, that was with caputo flour as well.  If you look closely at the crumb, eventhough it looks airy, that crumb was leathery and dry where as this one is moist.  Big difference. 

JT
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 19, 2010, 07:59:29 PM
Still working on that almostpolitan pie.  Tell me what you guys think.

Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2010, 09:01:36 PM
Jackie Tran,

Looks great to me!  ;D  How did you bake that pie and how did you go about the mix?

Norma
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: jever4321 on August 19, 2010, 09:10:08 PM
I think you nailed it. Looks AWESOME!
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: Jackie Tran on August 19, 2010, 10:23:00 PM
Thanks Norma and Jev.   I actually just realized that I posted this in the wrong section.  This was made with AP flour and not caputo.  I've been running low on caputo and started experimenting with AP flour. 

The mix was 69% HR, 1.5% salt, and 0.1% IDY.  It was hand kneaded and left to ferment at 76F for 8 hours, then divided and balled & fridge for 9 hrs, and proof again at room temps for 3 hours.  Bake under the broiler in the home oven.  The crumb was doughier than i like. 

Let me know if you have anymore questions.  Feedback from the WFO crowd would be cool.  Come on guys... 8)

Chau
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 20, 2010, 12:12:09 AM
JT,

I think they look sweet - in a savory kind of way. Seriously, nice work - some of the best pies I've seen come out of a home oven.

What was the cook time? From the pictures, it looks like you lost a good bit of the water in your sauce during the cooking process. I noticed that when I was able to get my cook time down from 2:30-2:45 to 2:00-2:15, my sauce has a much "wetter" look which I was trying to achieve.

The crust looks great. Sorry it was "doughier" than you like. Do you think it would be better if you knocked the hydration down a couple turns? 64-65% maybe?

Craig
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: gtsum2 on September 08, 2010, 09:49:52 PM
those pies look nice! ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
Post by: NY pizzastriver on September 10, 2010, 12:23:16 PM
Fabuloso! Magnifico!