Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 09:08:18 AM

Title: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 09:08:18 AM

This was a pizza dough Steve and I mixed at market yesterday in a few minutes.  We made the pizza about 10 minutes after we mixed the dough.  I did some stretch and folds and Steve also did some stretch and folds, because the dough was sticky. No extra bench flour was needed to be used, other than he normal amount that is used to open a dough ball.  The dough ball wasn’t oiled or floured at all.  This was a 12" pizza.  Steve opened the dough ball. 

Does anyone care to guess anything about this pizza?  This pizza didn’t have a lot of oven spring even with the stretch and folds.  The dough was sticky before the stretch and folds.

If anyone is interested in guessing what the ingredients were in the dough of this pizza or anything about this pizza, I will give more clues if anyone can’t figure out the ingredients or what kind of pizza this was.  If no one is interested, I still will post how this pizza was made in a few days. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 09:11:08 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 09:12:57 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: dellavecchia on April 27, 2011, 09:19:26 AM
Norma - I don't have the skills to guess what the ingredients are, but the crumb is unbelievable considering just ten minutes of rise!

John
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 10:27:22 AM
Norma - I don't have the skills to guess what the ingredients are, but the crumb is unbelievable considering just ten minutes of rise!

John

John,

The crumb was okay I think because all of the water used and also the stretch and folds. I am not saying this crust was the best, but I found it interesting that a dough and pizza could be made this fast.  This is another clue to this dough and final pizza.  The total weight of the ingredients used were 184 grams without the water.  The water used was ½ cup of very hot water. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: parallei on April 27, 2011, 04:26:00 PM
Wild guess.....self-rising flour or baking soda/powder.  Looks good whatever it was.  10 min huh?
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 04:52:17 PM
Wild guess.....self-rising flour or baking soda/powder.  Looks good whatever it was.  10 min huh?

Paul,

Good guess!  :) The mix did have baking soda as one of the ingredients, but there was more yeast than baking soda.  The flour wasn’t self-rising flour.  This was a very fast dough and I was surprised how fast Steve and I could use the dough.  The ingredients and very hot water were beaten with a metal spoon 20 times.  The dough was only left to then sit for 10 minutes covered.

A couple of more clues if anyone is interested: An egg product and nonfat milk were also some of the ingreidents in this dough. To be truthful, this was a way to easy dough.   

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on April 27, 2011, 08:30:50 PM
Paul,

Good guess!  :) The mix did have baking soda as one of the ingredients, but there was more yeast than baking soda.  The flour wasn’t self-rising flour.  This was a very fast dough and I was surprised how fast Steve and I could use the dough.  The ingredients and very hot water were beaten with a metal spoon 20 times.  The dough was only left to then sit for 10 minutes covered.

A couple of more clues if anyone is interested: An egg product and nonfat milk were also some of the ingreidents in this dough. To be truthful, this was a way to easy dough.   

Norma

It kinda looks like a chef boyardee kit or a martha white pizza dough mix made with your skills.
 :D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 27, 2011, 08:43:43 PM
Bill,

You are close. It is a Jiffy pizza crust mix that was used to make the pizza. Right, Norma?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
It kinda looks like a chef boyardee kit or a martha white pizza dough mix made with your skills.
 :D

Bill,

Great guesses, but neither the Chef Boyardee or the Martha white pizza dough mix aren't right.  I will give another clue.  It was a mix I bought at the supermarket, just to see how it would turn out.

Thanks for playing along in guessing what was used to make this pizza.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 27, 2011, 11:30:15 PM
Bill,

You are close. It is a Jiffy pizza crust mix that was used to make the pizza. Right, Norma?

Peter

Peter,

Nope, the Jiffy Pizza crust mix isn’t right either.  I will give another clue.  The person behind this brand of mix Steve and I used is a brand name and trademark of an American Fortune 500 corporation.

Thank for playing along in this guessing game too!  Steve and I were fooled how this pizza turned out.  It turned out better than we thought it would.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 27, 2011, 11:35:57 PM
Norma,

Betty Crocker.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on April 27, 2011, 11:48:32 PM
Amway Pizza Dough mix.
  :-D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Jet_deck on April 27, 2011, 11:53:47 PM
Bisquick?  With some dough conditioner?  More hints are kneaded  :-D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 12:03:38 AM
Norma,

Betty Crocker.

Peter

Peter,

You are right!  What kind of prize do you want?  Is this good enough? :pizza: :pizza: Do you think this looked like a Betty Crocker pizza?  Steve and I used really hot water right out of the spigot.  I would have thought that would have killed the yeast, but it didn't.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betty_Crocker

and

http://www.livestrong.com/thedailyplate/nutrition-calories/food/betty-crocker/pizza-crust-mix-6.5-oz/

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 12:05:38 AM
Amway Pizza Dough mix.
  :-D

Bill,

Thanks for playing along with this guessing game!  ;D  I just thought is was interesting that a cheap pizza mix turned out so good.  The crust didn't taste like crusts I usually make, but it was okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 12:08:02 AM
Bisquick?  With some dough conditioner?  More hints are kneaded  :-D

Jet_deck,

Thank you for playing around in this guessing game too!   ;D  I would have given more hints as kneaded, but Peter already guessed right.  I really like your post about more hints are kneaded.   :-D  That gave me a good chuckle!

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on April 28, 2011, 12:13:59 AM
Norma,
Supposed you let it cold rise for 2 days?
 :)
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 12:22:44 AM
Norma,
Supposed you let it cold rise for 2 days?
 :)

Bill,

I don't know what would happen with a cold rise for 2 days, but think a addition of some oil would make the finished crust taste better.  I would think that this dough would get out of control with a longer ferment, but maybe it might not, if really cold water was used.  This dough was really sticky to begin with and Steve and I thought about how doing stretch and folds would help this dough.  It did work.  The directions on the package say to press the dough in a pan, but we wanted to see if we could make a dough ball and make the pizza normally.  It did work.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2011, 09:33:49 AM
Norma,

If you look at the various commercial "instant" pizza dough mixes on the market, you will see that they are all pretty much alike, even down to the net weight (184 grams) of the pizza mix. Even the instructions are quite similar (including using 1/2 cup of hot water).

It wasn't until Bill (chickenparm) mentioned a prepared pizza mix that I got the Ding, ding, ding. Where I went wrong in guessing the Jiffy mix is that the Jiffy mix does not include any egg product.

With respect to the water temperature issue that you raised, I suspect that your water temperature was not high enough to kill the yeast. You would have to get to over 143 degrees F or so to do that. That is pretty hard to do when the yeast is buffered by all of the flour and other ingredients in the mix. You might also recall that yeast producers will often specify a water temperature of about 120-130 degrees F when the yeast (usually ADY) is added in advance to the flour and other dry ingredients. As a practical matter, and although I don't recommend it, I think you could get to around 135 degrees F without harming the yeast. I'd be curious to know what water temperature you actually used.

To Bill's point about using cold fermentation with a commercial instant dough mix, I tried that with the Jiffy pizza mix. You and Bill can read about my experiments along these lines at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4652.msg38349.html#msg38349.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Tman1 on April 28, 2011, 11:40:48 AM
My wife works in the test kitchens for Betty here in Minneapolis. I can tell you that you'd be amazed at how many times that was probably made. They start out by following the directions, then start playing with it to determine 'tolerance', then have people who've never seen the product before do it.. a sort of blind test.

Interesting to hear all that goes on in there (BK Kitchens). She loves the job!  I might have to have here bring home some from the company store and give it a go. It is nice that it's so quick for those real emergencies.
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 12:58:31 PM
Norma,

If you look at the various commercial "instant" pizza dough mixes on the market, you will see that they are all pretty much alike, even down to the net weight (184 grams) of the pizza mix. Even the instructions are quite similar (including using 1/2 cup of hot water).

It wasn't until Bill (chickenparm) mentioned a prepared pizza mix that I got the Ding, ding, ding. Where I went wrong in guessing the Jiffy mix is that the Jiffy mix does not include any egg product.

With respect to the water temperature issue that you raised, I suspect that your water temperature was not high enough to kill the yeast. You would have to get to over 143 degrees F or so to do that. That is pretty hard to do when the yeast is buffered by all of the flour and other ingredients in the mix. You might also recall that yeast producers will often specify a water temperature of about 120-130 degrees F when the yeast (usually ADY) is added in advance to the flour and other dry ingredients. As a practical matter, and although I don't recommend it, I think you could get to around 135 degrees F without harming the yeast. I'd be curious to know what water temperature you actually used.

To Bill's point about using cold fermentation with a commercial instant dough mix, I tried that with the Jiffy pizza mix. You and Bill can read about my experiments along these lines at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4652.msg38349.html#msg38349.

Peter

Peter,

I never really looked at many “instant” pizza dough mixes before.  I just thought they wouldn’t work well.  The next time I go to the supermarket, I will check on what kind are available in my area and look at the instructions and ingredients.  I had looked at the Pillsbury refrigerated containers of pizza dough and had thought about giving them a try.

I thought if I gave enough clues and you answered on this thread, you probably would have gotten the ding, ding, ding, sooner or later.  Of course all the other guesses were very interesting too.  

I really don’t know what water temperature I used, but my water at market can get so hot that I am unable to let my hand under it.  I did run the hot water for a little.  If I think about it, when I am at market I will take the water temperature with my digital thermometer.  I even asked Steve if he thought the water we were using was too hot, but the directions just said not to use boiling water.
 
I did read about you using a cold ferment with the Jiffy pizza mix.  I might try doing a cold ferment at some point in time with the Betty Crocker pizza mix like I purchased.  It was cheap enough and quick enough to do another experiment with.  

I had one regular customer taste a slice of the pizza made with the Betty Crocker pizza mix, and he said just while eating the pizza with the sauce and cheese, it almost couldn’t be told what kind of dough was used, but when he tasted the crust, he said my crust was much better.  It is interesting how much a sauce and cheese can make a pizza taste, even if the crust isn’t the greatest.  

Steve and I also had two women that work at Chi Chi’s stop at my stand on Tuesday and they were telling us how they made the dough, brownies and breadsticks.  That also was an interesting discussion.  They both said they loved their jobs at Chi Chi’s.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 01:07:50 PM
My wife works in the test kitchens for Betty here in Minneapolis. I can tell you that you'd be amazed at how many times that was probably made. They start out by following the directions, then start playing with it to determine 'tolerance', then have people who've never seen the product before do it.. a sort of blind test.

Interesting to hear all that goes on in there (BK Kitchens). She loves the job!  I might have to have here bring home some from the company store and give it a go. It is nice that it's so quick for those real emergencies.

Tman1,

It is interesting to hear your wife works at the test kitchens for Betty in Minneapolis.  :) I am sure other members and I would be amazed at what different people do to different mixes of Betty Crocker.

I can imagine what an interesting job that would be to work in a test kitchen, especially as big as Betty Crocker.  It would be interesting if you bought some of the Betty Crocker pizza mixes I used and tried them or modified the pizza mix and see what kind of results you would get.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2011, 01:41:36 PM
Norma,

Compare these:

Betty Crocker
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA

Chef Boyardee
Crust Mix: Enriched Wheat Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Riboflavin [Vitamin B2] and Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil Shortening (Contains One or More of the Following: Soybean Oil, Cottonseed Oil), Yeast, Dextrose, Leavening (Sodium Aluminum Phosphate and Sodium Bicarbonate) and Salt.

Jiffy
INGREDIENTS: WHEAT FLOUR, ANIMAL SHORTENING (CONTAINS ONE OR MORE OF THE FOLLOWING: LARD, HYDROGENATED LARD, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED LARD), YEAST, contains less than 2% of each of the following: WHEY, SALT, DEXTROSE, LEAVENING (SODIUM ALUMINUM PHOSPHATE, BAKING SODA), SORBITAN MONOSTEARATE, NIACIN, REDUCED IRON, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID

Appian Way
Pizza Crust: Enriched Bleached Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Dextrose, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate), Partially Hydrogenated Vegetable Shortening (Contains Soybean Oil), Active Dry Yeast With Sorbitan Monostearate, Emulsifier (Soy Lecithin), Salt, Nonfat Milk, Maltodextrin

Martha White
ENRICHED FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: DEXTROSE, BAKING POWDER (BAKING SODA, SODIUM ALUMINUM PHOSPHATE), DRY YEAST, SALT, PARTIALLY HYDROGENATED SOYBEAN OIL, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, CALCIUM SULFATE, PROPYLENE GLYCOL MONOESTERS, MONO AND DIGLYCERIDES, POLYSORBATE 60, L-CYSTEINE HYDROCHLORIDE, TBHQ AND CITRIC ACID (ANTIOXIDANTS).

Kroger
Ingredients: Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Dextrose, Leavening (Baking Soda, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate), Whey, Soybean Oil, Salt, Active Dry Yeast with Sorbitan Monostearate, L-Cysteine Monohydrochloride

Walmart Great Value
Enriched Bleached Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Iron, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Dextrose, Leavening (Sodium Almuminum Phosphate, Baking Soda), Active Dry Yeast With Sorbitan Monostearate, Salt, Calcium Carbonate

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
Peter,

Thanks for posting all the different ingredients for the kinds of pizza mixes you found.  I see most of them have about the same ingredients.  I see the Jiffy pizza mix has lard (or different types of lard) as one of the ingredients.  I would be curious to hear if you had to pick one of the pizza mixes from your above list, which one you would pick, to make the best pizza, by just looking at the ingredients.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2011, 05:37:10 PM
I would be curious to hear if you had to pick one of the pizza mixes from your above list, which one you would pick, to make the best pizza, by just looking at the ingredients.

Norma,

Here is another pizza crust mix that I missed:

Eagle Mills
Enriched Bleached Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folate), Sugar, Canola or Soybean Oil, Salt, Mono-Diglycerides, Isolated Soy Protein, Whey. Yeast Packet Ingredient: Active Dried Yeast.

I actually thought about the question you raised as I was composing my last reply. I would say that it would be a toss-up between the Betty Crocker mix and the Chef Boyardee mix. I like the fact that the Betty Crocker mix has items like egg, nonfat milk and soy flour, all of which are nutritional items even though they are used in only small quantities. The negative for the Betty Crocker mix for me is the high placement of dextrose in the list of ingredients. Whether that would show up as excessive sweetness on my palate is something I would have to test by trying out the mix. The Chef Boyardee mix moves the dextrose farther down the list and salt is at the bottom of the list. Whether the latter results in a bland tasting crust is something that would have to be tested through eating. Some of the pizza mixes come in kits with sauce and cheese, so one has to take into account the amounts of salt, sugar/corn syrup, etc., that those parts of the pizza contain. I have set forth below the sauce and cheese combinations I found. Please try not to salivate over them. As between the two sauce/cheese combinations, I would pick the Appian Way combo. It is a cleaner combination in my opinion.

Chef Boyardee
Pizza Sauce: Tomato Puree (Water, Tomato Paste), Water, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Contains Less than 2% of: Soybean Oil, Salt, Modified Corn Starch, Spice, Medium Chain Triglycerides, Xanthan Gum, Flavorings, Partially Hydrogenated Cottonseed and Soybean Oils, and Enzyme Modified Butterfat and Oil. Grated Cheese: a Blend of Cheeses (Parmesan and Romano Made From Cow's Milk [Pasteurized Part-Skim Milk, Cultures, Salt, Enzymes]), Powdered Cellulose Added to Prevent Caking, Potassium Sorbate Added as a Preservative.

Appian Way
Pizza Sauce: Water, Tomato Paste, Modified Food Starch, Contains 2% Or Less Of Sugar, Salt, Cottonseed Oil, Spices, Romano Cheese (Pasteurized Part Skim Milk Cheese Culture, Salt, Enzymes, Calcium Chloride), Beet Powder, Citric Acid, Paprika, Olive Oil, Garlic Powder.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 06:26:47 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the pizza crust you missed.  I never saw that one before at the supermarket, but maybe I wasn’t looking.

Maybe one of these days I will have to try out the Chef Boyardee mix to see how it compares with the Betty Crocker mix I tried.  I didn’t notice any sweetness in the Betty Crocker mix crust, but since our palates are different, you might be able to taste some sweetness, if you decided to try the Betty Crocker mix out. 

Don’t worry about me salivating over the sauce and cheese combination you found.  It isn’t going to happen.  :-D   I like good tomato products or either a sauce like Les’s.  I never tried any of the pizza mixes with the kits of sauce and cheese, but do find them interesting.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: fazzari on April 28, 2011, 07:48:31 PM
You know, I just thought of an interesting tidbit (at least I think it is!!).  When I attended Tom Lehmann's Pizza dough class years ago, he was telling us a story about how he got into trouble by deconstructing pizza doughs and then reconstructing them and giving out information.  Anyway, the interesting story to me was the one about Papa Murphys.  He deconstructed the dough and found it had baking soda/baking powder in addition to yeast, and he theorized the reason for adding this is to make the dough full proof in case an idiot customer forgets his pizza is sitting in a hot trunk for example.  So even though the yeast might be killed, you have the baking powder baking soda as backup to make the dough rise.  The unintended consequence is that these ingredients have a taste unlike normal dough.  So Norma, I'm wondering in your case if you got any yeast action at all, or was the rise from the baking soda/powder??

John
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2011, 08:23:36 PM
John,

You raise an interesting point. Many take-and-bake places use a product like WRISE from the Wright Group. That product is described in the document at http://www.thewrightgroup.net/images/stories/pdf/wrise/wrise_101595.pdf. As can be seen in that document, WRISE is made up of sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and baking soda. It is fat encapsulated (a non-trans palm lipid) and kicks in only during baking. That way, if the consumer abuses the pizza by not preparing it as instructed, the WRISE product comes to the rescue. You will note that all but one of the pizza crust mixes described earlier contain sodium aluminum phosphate and baking soda. The difference is that that combination is not fat encapsulated, most likely because it is a dry mix that doesn't come to life until hot water is added. It is possible that the yeast is added for flavor (maybe to help masquerade the baking soda flavor) as much as for fermentation purposes. If there is enough yeast and hot water is used, it is possible to get some fermentation going in less than 15 minutes. But, without the sodium aluminum phosphate and baking soda, you would need a lot more yeast. I recall making doughs super fast, within about 15 minutes, using only yeast, and it took two packets of yeast to do it. I'm inclined to agree with you that most of the rise in the dough may be because of the sodium aluminum phosphate and the baking soda.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: parallei on April 28, 2011, 10:15:57 PM
I'd have to vote for the Jiffy.  After all, it's the only one with lard.  Gotta taste the best >:D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 10:19:31 PM
John,

I find it interesting that you did take classes with Tom Lehmann, and he. like Peter likes to deconstruct doughs and reconstruct them again.  :-D

I, like Peter really don’t know if the yeast could have been activated in such a short time with out the baking soda.  I did do some experiments with baking soda only in combination with vinegar in an Ultra-thin crust with Peter’s advise.  I posted in Reply 4 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11427.msg104307.html#msg104307 that baking soda in combination with an acidic agent can almost canceled the baking soda taste and does produce CO2 which might which might have been responsible for the rise in the crust of such a short mix and ferment time. That was a total different experiment than this, but I learned how baking soda and vinegar did work well together.

Since Sodium Aluminum Phosphate is listed before baking soda in the ingredients I could also see how that might help with some oven spring in the Betty Crocker mix.
http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm
Since Sodium Aluminum Phosphate is supposed to act quickly in the oven.  It is also supposed to enhance baking reaction with the Sodium Bicarbonate present in the baking powder formulation. I think baking soda is just sodium bicarbonate without cream of tartar, but I could be wrong.

I find it interesting in pizza mixes how each ingredient works with each other.

Anyone can correct me if any of this information is wrong.  I just try to learn.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2011, 10:24:37 PM
I'd have to vote for the Jiffy.  After all, it's the only one with lard.  Gotta taste the best >:D

Paul,

Good to hear you vote for Jiffy.  :)  Did you ever try a Jiffy pizza mix?  Stayed tuned, I am trying Manteca (lard) in a Lehmann dough for next week, in my other thread.  Who knows what will happen with that.  We’ll all see if the lard makes a difference in the taste of the Lehmann dough.  >:D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: fazzari on April 28, 2011, 10:35:19 PM
Peter
Thanks a million...I forgot all about Wrise, and looking back in my notes, Tom recommended it highly.
John
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on April 28, 2011, 10:39:21 PM
Peter,

Thanks for posting that link about the cold rise test you did.The Pie you made came out looking fantastic.

I thought about buying a pizza kit or two and throwing the stuff into the the bread mixer and see what it can do with it,then cold rise overnight.Just for fun.Never know when something might amaze us or not!
 :)
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: widespreadpizza on April 29, 2011, 12:15:55 AM
mmmaluminummmnn   Ronzo pointed out a while back how detectable this ingredient is in baked goods didn't he?  It tasted like biscuits right?  -marc
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 05:22:38 PM
mmmaluminummmnn   Ronzo pointed out a while back how detectable this ingredient is in baked goods didn't he?  It tasted like biscuits right?  -marc

Marc,

Were you directing the question to me about if the pizza crust tasted like biscuits?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 05:33:20 PM
I used my NSF update international thermometer today to take the temperature of hot water put into the same ½ cup measuring cup I had used Tuesday, for the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  The temperature of the water right after it was put into the stainless steel measuring cup was 132.4 degrees F.  About a minute later it was 128.7 degrees F.  Another two minutes later it was 123.1 degrees F.  If I remember correctly we used the water right away.  Today at market the ambinet room temperature at my stand was 68 degrees F and I even measured the stainless steel measuring cup with my IR gun to make sure that was the temperature of the measuring cup.  Tuesday the ambient room temperatures were about 82 degrees F.  I can see the temperature of the hot water could fall fairly fast after the test I did today.  I can now see the temperature of the water at market isn’t high enough to kill the yeast.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Botch on April 29, 2011, 10:35:55 PM
Several folks on this forum have purchased Bosch mixers and ingredients from www.foryourkitchen.com (http://www.foryourkitchen.com), which is based here in Ogden.  I attended their "Pizza" class a few months ago, and he mixed up a batch of pizza dough at the beginning of the class, immediately rolled out a couple skins, docked and dressed them, and threw them into the oven.
He didn't proof the yeast at all (IDY), but
He didn't let the dough rise either, at all!   :o
At first, I got pretty interested as suddenly it looked like I could make pizza any night of the week, without any time expenditure.
But, the crust didn't taste very good at all; more like flour.  I can dig out the recipe if anyone's interested, but it isn't very good.  Sounds like the pre-packaged mixes in this thread are better.  
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2011, 10:42:08 PM
Botch,

I'd be interested in seeing the recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2011, 10:53:10 PM
Botch,

I also would be interested in seeing the recipe.  :) The crust on the pizza I made from the Betty Crocker mix was okay and didn’t taste like flour, but it didn’t taste like a crust that was homemade and the dough had fermented for a few days.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: c0mpl3x on April 30, 2011, 12:34:51 AM
norma, you've inspired me to a similar idea i've been kicking around.  will post shortly with results  :chef:
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2011, 08:01:04 AM
norma, you've inspired me to a similar idea i've been kicking around.  will post shortly with results  :chef:

c0mpl3x,

I like to see and read about any different kinds of tests or experiments with pizza.  Will be watching for what you try and your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: c0mpl3x on April 30, 2011, 09:01:24 AM
c0mpl3x,

I like to see and read about any different kinds of tests or experiments with pizza.  Will be watching for what you try and your results.

Norma

lol, i forgot that the 'toast' function of my toaster oven is 'constant on' and i burned it.  oops.    but here's the recipe

120g bisquick
5g oil
3g yeast
1g salt (already salt and baking soda present)
4g sugar
60g water

mixed it up let it sit 30mins made a pan pizza in toaster oven pan. looked great until i gave it the toaster 'broil' to brown the top and forgot about it.
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2011, 09:46:05 AM
lol, i forgot that the 'toast' function of my toaster oven is 'constant on' and i burned it.  oops.    but here's the recipe

120g bisquick
5g oil
3g yeast
1g salt (already salt and baking soda present)
4g sugar
60g water

mixed it up let it sit 30mins made a pan pizza in toaster oven pan. looked great until i gave it the toaster 'broil' to brown the top and forgot about it.


c0mpl3x,

You idea and experiment for a fast pizza using Bisquick sounds really good. Lol, you forgot about the toast on your toaster oven being constantly on.  I could see that your method and experiment might work.  Do you plan on doing the experiment again?  There are many recipes for using Bisquick on the web for pizza dough.  These are just a few of the recipes.  I never tried any of these, but they look like they are quick.

http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,194,143176-237206,00.html

http://www.cooks.com/rec/view/0,1941,146160-251201,00.html

http://www.food.com/recipe/astonishingly-easy-yeasty-bisquick-pizza-dough-222066

There are also recipes from Betty Crocker like:

http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/bisquick-pizza/df578e3c-9ca3-438b-8780-06f6ea9434c2

Thanks for sharing your results.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: c0mpl3x on April 30, 2011, 11:50:46 PM
i think i might omit the oil period, from what i could feel from the very dark brown broiler 'oops' crust, it's as soft or softer than store bread.   probably too soft for a non-pan pizza (ie: NY/neo), but as a sicilian or on it's own as a bread.  the initial handling of the dough was just way too non-gluten, i could do 100 stretch and folds and i don't see a surface tension to it.  i did about 20, and i could barely notice a difference.  i will be trying it again, one with CY and the other with IDY.
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 09:02:51 AM
i think i might omit the oil period, from what i could feel from the very dark brown broiler 'oops' crust, it's as soft or softer than store bread.   probably too soft for a non-pan pizza (ie: NY/neo), but as a sicilian or on it's own as a bread.  the initial handling of the dough was just way too non-gluten, i could do 100 stretch and folds and i don't see a surface tension to it.  i did about 20, and i could barely notice a difference.  i will be trying it again, one with CY and the other with IDY.

c0mpl3x,

I don’t have a Bisquick box at home right now, but I do use Bisquick occasionally to make pancakes and shortcake for strawberries. I have used Bisquick in the past to make biscuits. I don’t know what kind of flour is added to the mix, but I think there is some kind of fat already in the mix.  I also think there is some kind of milk product in the mix, but I am not sure.  Either the kind of flour, fat, or if there is a milk product in the Bisquick could make your dough softer.  At least that is what I am thinking, but don’t know. 

You posted that the Bisquick mix didn’t form gluten, and the dough was way too soft, even if you did stretch and folds.  I don’t know if you could also try another flour in combination with your Bisquick or not to make the gluten form better.

I look forward to your results if you use CY and IDY in your pizza mix.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 11:20:57 AM
c0mpl3x and Norma,

To see the ingredients for all of the Betty Crocker Bisquick mixes, go to http://www.generalmills.com/Home/Brands/Baking_Products/Gold_Medal/Brand%20Product%20List%20Page.aspx, click on the Bisquick link under Brands, and then click on the Nutrition Facts button to get to the particular version of the product desired, such as the Bisquick Original. Since the Bisquick mix is used mostly for biscuits, pancakes and waffles and the like, I would guess that they are using cake flour (bromated, without malting). Being low in protein and gluten formation, I would imagine that it would be hard to develop whatever small amount of gluten the flour can form. Adding a higher protein flour to the Bisquick mix as Norma mentioned should help convert the Bisquick mix to a pizza crust mix. Note, also, our old friends baking soda and sodium aluminum phosphate, which are used in all of the pizza crust mixes shown in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206.

Also, check out the Bisquick Complete Buttermilk Biscuits mix. It has egg, a milk product (buttermilk) and soy flour, much like the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix that Norma used for her mystery pizza:

Betty Crocker
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA


Take the Bisquick Complete Buttermilk Biscuits mix, add a stronger (malted) flour to it, along with some yeast, and maybe you have a cheaper version of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix. Then, just add water.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Trinity on May 01, 2011, 11:28:28 AM
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2106.0.html :D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 12:52:30 PM
c0mpl3x and Norma,

To see the ingredients for all of the Betty Crocker Bisquick mixes, go to http://www.generalmills.com/Home/Brands/Baking_Products/Gold_Medal/Brand%20Product%20List%20Page.aspx, click on the Bisquick link under Brands, and then click on the Nutrition Facts button to get to the particular version of the product desired, such as the Bisquick Original. Since the Bisquick mix is used mostly for biscuits, pancakes and waffles and the like, I would guess that they are using cake flour (bromated, without malting). Being low in protein and gluten formation, I would imagine that it would be hard to develop whatever small amount of gluten the flour can form. Adding a higher protein flour to the Bisquick mix as Norma mentioned should help convert the Bisquick mix to a pizza crust mix. Note, also, our old friends baking soda and sodium aluminum phosphate, which are used in all of the pizza crust mixes shown in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206.

Also, check out the Bisquick Complete Buttermilk Biscuits mix. It has egg, a milk product (buttermilk) and soy flour, much like the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix that Norma used for her mystery pizza:

Betty Crocker
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA


Take the Bisquick Complete Buttermilk Biscuits mix, add a stronger (malted) flour to it, along with some yeast, and maybe you have a cheaper version of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix. Then, just add water.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for finding all the information out about the Original Bisquick and the Buttemilk Bisquick Biscuit Mix. I had tried to find that information, but couldn’t. I wonder how a buttermilk Bisquick biscuit, cheese-garlic biscuit mix, three cheese biscuit mix, or even a gluten-free mix would taste for a pizza.  I have to go to the supermarket later today and might look to see if they carry any of those mixes. 

I also see our old friends ( baking soda and sodium aluminum phosphate) are still there waiting for us.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 12:55:41 PM
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2106.0.html :D

Trinity,

I, like Peter did at Reply 73 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2106.msg67808.html#msg67808 would like nominate you to the Chef Boyardee Hall of Fame!  :chef: :chef: :chef:

Did you make five total pizzas with the mix or mixes or more?  :o

It was very interesting to see all the way you use the Chef Boyardee products to create pizza in differnent ways.  You are very creative and your pizzas did look great!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Trinity on May 01, 2011, 01:36:31 PM
:)

 About time I make another... :)
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 01:56:27 PM
Thanks for finding all the information out about the Original Bisquick and the Buttemilk Bisquick Biscuit Mix. I had tried to find that information, but couldn’t.

Norma,

Believe me, it was not easy. I was able to find the typical consumer information (like recipes) for the Bisquick products quite quickly and easily but not the ingredients lists and nutrition facts. But, being a "blue vase" type, I was not to be denied. I went back to one of my posts on the Better for Bread flour and found the link to the entire GM consumer products list. Once I got that, I was in business.

One of the things that should be kept in mind in adapting a Bisquick mix to a pizza crust mix is that when you add a stronger flour to the mix in order to get better gluten formation and development more in line with a pizza dough, you reduce the percents of all of the other ingredients in relation to the weight of the final flour mix. That means that you have to increase the quantities of all of the ingredients in the ingredients list other than the flour. You might also note that the Bisquick Original mix contains three components for its leavening system: baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate and monocalcium phosphate. If I am not mistaken, that is a baking powder. Since you are unlikely to find an over the counter retail product with that exact mix, you may have to use a baking powder that uses sodium aluminum sulphate which, as noted in the Cook's Illustrated article at http://www.cooksillustrated.com/tastetests/overview.asp?docid=9931, is apparently used interchangeably with sodium aluminum phosphate. I think that a product like Clabber Girl, as discussed at http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/BakingPowder.htm, might do the trick. As noted above, adjustment of the quantities of the other ingredient will be necessary to keep the proportions in proper order. In lieu of dextrose, you might just add a bit more sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 03:12:59 PM
Norma,

Believe me, it was not easy. I was able to find the typical consumer information (like recipes) for the Bisquick products quite quickly and easily but not the ingredients lists and nutrition facts. But, being a "blue vase" type, I was not to be denied. I went back to one of my posts on the Better for Bread flour and found the link to the entire GM consumer products list. Once I got that, I was in business.

One of the things that should be kept in mind in adapting a Bisquick mix to a pizza crust mix is that when you add a stronger flour to the mix in order to get better gluten formation and development more in line with a pizza dough, you reduce the percents of all of the other ingredients in relation to the weight of the final flour mix. That means that you have to increase the quantities of all of the ingredients in the ingredients list other than the flour. You might also note that the Bisquick Original mix contains three components for its leavening system: baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate and monocalcium phosphate. If I am not mistaken, that is a baking powder. Since you are unlikely to find an over the counter retail product with that exact mix, you may have to use a baking powder that uses sodium aluminum sulphate which, as noted in the Cook's Illustrated article at http://www.cooksillustrated.com/tastetests/overview.asp?docid=9931, is apparently used interchangeably with sodium aluminum phosphate. I think that a product like Clabber Girl, as discussed at http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/BakingPowder.htm, might do the trick. As noted above, adjustment of the quantities of the other ingredient will be necessary to keep the proportions in proper order. In lieu of dextrose, you might just add a bit more sugar.

Peter


Peter,

I know you are a “blue vase” type, just like Vincent Van Gogh in his creative painting of the “flowers in a blue vase”, but different, in you will find information if it can be found.  You are also like a blue vase in many other ways.  Hope noone refers to you as the “blue vase” in the future.  :-D  Good to hear that the Better for Bread flour led you onto the right trail.  I also tried to look under Bisquick and all I found was recipe after recipe, no matter what I did.  

I first will see if my supermarket carries any of the biscuit mixes.  I am going to a smaller supermarket, but a much larger one just opened about a block away. I don’t know if I want to get into all the mess of all the people at the new supermarket.  I am now using a baking powder without sodium aluminum sulphate (Argo), but I looked in my cupboard and I do have Kraft Calumet.  The ingredients listed are: baking soda, cornstarch, sodium aluminum sulfate, calcium sulfate, and monocalcium phosphate, so it looks like I could be in business for another try at a biscuit pizza if I find one of the biscuit mixes.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 03:14:58 PM
:)

 About time I make another... :)

Trinity,

Go ahead an make another if you have time.  ;D I would be looking forward to seeing what you do the next time!

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 03:35:17 PM
I know you are a “blue vase” type, just like Vincent Van Gogh in his creative painting of the “flowers in a blue vase”, but different, in you will find information if it can be found.

Norma,

LOL. I perhaps should have said "blue steel pan" instead of "blue vase".

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 04:52:56 PM
Norma,

LOL. I perhaps should have said "blue steel pan" instead of "blue vase".

Peter

Peter,

I know you have researched those “blue steel” pans for a long while.  That is what makes you unique.  This is a little history about “blue vases”.  http://books.google.com/books?id=Sv8tAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA709&lpg=PA709&dq=how+are+old+blue+vases+made&source=bl&ots=WXloFP0KgA&sig=XrTt   I guess all those people that were making “blue vases” many years ago, also had to do much research to find everything they needed to know, because the blue vases did change over time.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Botch on May 01, 2011, 05:54:28 PM
Per a couple requests, above:

ForYourKitchen Basic Pizza Crust  (make one 14" - 16" pizza)

1.5 cup hot water
2 tsp salt
2 Tblspn sugar
2.5 tsp SAF IDY
3-4 cups whole wheat or unbleached flour
1 tsp Dough Enhancer

Combine all ingredients in Bosch  ::) mixing bowl and knead for 8-10 minutes.  Place cornmeal or wheat flour on the pizza peel then roll out the dough.  Remember to pick the pizza peel up and slide the dough back and forth to be sure pizza doesn't stick to the peel.  
 
That's it.  
 
As long as I have the handout in front of me, here's his recipe for Barbeque Chicken pizza (I'm not a fan of the style but it wasn't too bad):
1/4 cup barbeque sauce
1/4 cup tomato sauce
1 cup cooked, shredded chicken
1/2 cup thinly-sliced red onion
Mozzarella grated
Fresh cilantro
Combine the two sauces and spread over the pizza, top with chicken and onion.  Bake at 500 on a stone for 5-6 minutes.  Remove with peel, top with cheese, and return to oven 1 minute.  Remove and sprinkle with cilantro.  
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 07:23:16 PM
Per a couple requests, above:

ForYourKitchen Basic Pizza Crust  (make one 14" - 16" pizza)

1.5 cup hot water
2 tsp salt
2 Tblspn sugar
2.5 tsp SAF IDY
3-4 cups whole wheat or unbleached flour
1 tsp Dough Enhancer

Combine all ingredients in Bosch  ::) mixing bowl and knead for 8-10 minutes.  Place cornmeal or wheat flour on the pizza peel then roll out the dough.  Remember to pick the pizza peel up and slide the dough back and forth to be sure pizza doesn't stick to the peel.  
 
That's it.  
 
As long as I have the handout in front of me, here's his recipe for Barbeque Chicken pizza (I'm not a fan of the style but it wasn't too bad):
1/4 cup barbeque sauce
1/4 cup tomato sauce
1 cup cooked, shredded chicken
1/2 cup thinly-sliced red onion
Mozzarella grated
Fresh cilantro
Combine the two sauces and spread over the pizza, top with chicken and onion.  Bake at 500 on a stone for 5-6 minutes.  Remove with peel, top with cheese, and return to oven 1 minute.  Remove and sprinkle with cilantro.  

Botch,

Thanks for posting the recipe from your Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137388.html#msg137388

I really like any kind of pizza with chicken.  Thanks for posting that recipe also!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 07:29:29 PM
I went to my family owned supermarket and got the groceries I needed, but they didn’t have any of the Bisquick Biscuit mixes.  I then went to the new supermarket that just opened and they had these two kinds of Bisquick Biscuit mixes.  I also purchased some Clabber Girl double acting baking powder.  I hate to ask this question, but how do I know how much baking powder and other ingredients to add to the biscuit mixes for a pizza dough, if I want to try one of these Bisquick mixes on Tuesday?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 09:22:38 PM
Norma,

Can you give us a broad outline of what you are thinking of doing?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2011, 11:01:19 PM
Norma,

Can you give us a broad outline of what you are thinking of doing?

Peter

Peter,

What I would like to do is make a pizza out of one of these Bisquick Biscuit mixes, in a short amount of time.  I could be this Tuesday or next Tuesday.  It doesn’t really matter to me.  I would like an idea of how much flour (maybe what kind) to add, how much baking powder to add, and also how much more water or other ingredients I might need to use.  All these could just be a ball park figure, if that is possible.  I have no idea how to turn a biscuit mix into a pizza, except to add a higher protein flour, water, baking powder, maybe yeast and maybe salt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 11:05:11 AM
What I would like to do is make a pizza out of one of these Bisquick Biscuit mixes, in a short amount of time.  I could be this Tuesday or next Tuesday.  It doesn’t really matter to me.  I would like an idea of how much flour (maybe what kind) to add, how much baking powder to add, and also how much more water or other ingredients I might need to use.  All these could just be a ball park figure, if that is possible.  I have no idea how to turn a biscuit mix into a pizza, except to add a higher protein flour, water, baking powder, maybe yeast and maybe salt.  

Norma,

Your instincts on this are correct. I believe that it may be possible to come up with a more elegant solution and answer but it would take an effort that would be disproportionate to the benefits derived. So, I think we may have to "wing" it somewhat this time and view the exercise as a test of the viability of converting a mix designed specifically for biscuits to a pizza crust blend. From the tenor of your post quoted above, it appears that that is the approach you have in mind also. If so, I think I would use only one of the packets of mix that you purchased so that you don't end up wasting the other packet in case the transformation does not prove out.

I suggest that we start with the Buttermilk Bisquick Complete mix. I did a quick comparison of that product with the Bisquick Original mix to see if anything jumped out at me. What jumped out at me is what appears to be a considerably higher fat content for the Buttermilk mix. The Bisquick Original mix is intended to be a multi-purpose mix and, hence, its fat content may be restrained so that it can be used to make a wide variety of products once milk, eggs and solid fat are added. A higher fat content for the Buttermilk mix, if confirmed, would be consistent with an end product--biscuits--that typically have a high fat content. What this means is that, in order to modify such a mix to attenutate the effects of the higher fat content, one would have to add a lot of outside flour, such as all-purpose flour or bread flour. If too much outside flour is added, along with other modifications, including adding some yeast, then you run the risk of ending up with a dough that does not perform properly, much like a dough made from the recipe that Botch recently posted. If I had to guess, even with a properly constructed "pizza mix", it is likely to produce a finished crust that has some if not many of the biscuit-like characteristics of a deep-dish crust, but in flat form. This would not be surprising. I have only tried the Jiffy pizza mix, which was specifically designed to make a pizza crust, and I noticed that the final crust had some biscuit-like characteristics. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if such is the case with many of the other high fat content pizza crust mixes I listed earlier in this thread.

I will take a closer look at the information on the Buttermilk Bisquick mix to see what I can take away from it. I noticed that the net weight of the packet of that mix is greater than the net weight of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix that you used to make your mystery pizza. Adding outside flour to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, along with other dry ingredients (Clabber Girl baking powder, more salt, etc.) as previously discussed, will further increase the net weight of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. That, in turn, will have an effect on the total dough batch weight (including more water) and the size of the pizza(s) made from it. I am fairly confident that the flour used to make the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is a low protein flour, most likely a bromated cake flour with a protein content in the 7-8.5% range. I have made pizzas before using cake mix and it does not usually make for a particularly appealing pizza, particularly from the standpoint of crust coloration. You can improve it by adding vital wheat gluten. Adding a flour like a bread flour should have a similar effect. Overcoming what appears to be a high fat content is likely to be the restraining factor.

On the matter of the yeast, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the yeast in the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used is actually dead yeast (glutathione) that is added in large measure for added flavor in the finished crust (it may also be implicated in producing a softer dough). There just doesn't seem to be enough time for "instant" doughs to undergo yeast fermentation for the short preparation time of the doughs.

As I start my analysis, I would appreciate it if you can tell me how much water is recommended by the preparation instructions to make the biscuits using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and its temperature. That information might provide some clues on hydration. It would also help to see the Nutrition Facts for the Clabber Girl baking powder, mainly to see how much a teaspoon of that product weighs.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2011, 01:22:18 PM
Peter,

It’s okay with me if we “wing it” this time.  I just wanted to see if the biscuit mix could somehow be turned into a pizza.  

The Betty Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix does have a higher fat content than the Original Bisquick, as you have found out.  I did also buy a box of Bisquick Original.  The Better Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix says to add ½ cup of water, just like the pizza mix I tried before in this thread.  The only thing different is it doesn’t say to add hot water, but mix until the dough is soft.
On the Bisquick Original I bought it doesn’t say anything about buttermilk in the ingredients.  The ingredients of the Original Bisquick are in the same order as the Betty Crocker Buttermilk Mix, until it comes down to sodium aluminum phosphate.  That is where the ingredients change.  The Original Bisquick then lists just dextrose and salt.  The Betty Crocker Buttermilk Biscuit Mix then lists buttermilk, salt, dextrose, egg, and soy flour.  You are right that the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix net weight is higher.  It is 212g. Or 7.5 oz.  

The Clabber Girl double acting baking powder ingredients are: cornstarch, sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum sulfate and monocalcium phosphate.  Nutrition Facts are: Serving size 1/8 tsp. (0.6) Servings Per Container about 383 calories 0, total fat 0, sodium 65mg. Total carb. 0, protein 0,and calcium 2%   I don’t know how accurate this is, but I weighed out a teaspoon (with a metal and plastic teaspoon 2 times) of the Clabber Girl baking powder on my kitchen scales a few times and the weights fluctuates between 4-5 grams, with 5 being the predominate number.

It is interesting to hear you think the Betty Crocker Pizza mix had dead yeast (glutathione) to give the crust better flavor.  I didn’t think the yeast had enough time to transform for fermentation of the dough.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 03:54:45 PM
Norma,

I estimate that the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is around 5.7 ounces, or about 162 grams. We cannot assume that 1/2-cup of water called for by the instructions on the package is the right amount to use if we are to use the Buttermilk Bisquick mix as a base for a pizza mix. That amount is to make biscuits, not pizza dough. So, I would use an amount of water (noted below) that is more in line with what I would use with a cake flour, around 55%.

To the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, I propose to add 6 ounces (170 grams) of King Arthur Bread flour (KABF). Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/,) and assuming 7.9% protein content for the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and 12.7% for the KABF, I calculate that the protein content of the final blend is around 10.3%. That is in the all-purpose flour category. I also believe that that value is higher than the flour component of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used recently to make your mystery pizza. Adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix will have the effect of reducing the amount of total fat in the blend. It will also reduce the effects of the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You would have to add more of these ingredients to get to the levels of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I don't see a compelling need to add more of these ingredients but if you have them and want to use them, I can give you some percents to use (relative to the weight of the KABF).

I also propose to add more baking powder (Clabber Girl brand), more salt, some sugar as an alternative to dextrose (which I assume you do not have), and some instant dry yeast (IDY). The IDY is intended mainly for crust flavor and possibly some fermentation if such can be achieved in the short dough preparation time. Of course, you could let the dough ferment at room temperature to help achieve more fermentation and get some of the benefits that the longer fermentation would confer on the finished crust. I will leave to you to decide on whether you want to do that. Maybe you want to see if you can make an "instant" dough (just as you did with the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix) and eliminate that step.

Here are the steps to follow to try to transform the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to a pizza crust mix:

Add the contents of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix packet (212 grams/7.48 ounces) to a bowl
Add 6 ounces (170 grams) of KABF
Add 4.59 grams/0.16 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to 1 1/8 t.
Add 2.55 grams/0.09 ounces salt; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 2.04 grams/0.072 ounces of sugar; this comes to 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 3/4 t.
Total weight of "goody bag" contents = 6.4 ounces/181.44 grams

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 93.5 grams/3.3 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix)
Water 2: 105.4 grams/3.72 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF)
Total weight of water: 194.9 grams/7.02 ounces

In light of the novel and uncertain nature of this experiment, you may want to initially hold back on some of the water to be sure that all of it is needed. This is where you may have to exercise your professional judgment as to when the dough has the proper consistency and "feel". That consistency and feel may be the same as when you made your mystery pizza. So, all of the water may not be needed, or maybe more will be needed. I suggest that you use a water temperature of around 130 degrees F, or whatever comparable temperature you can achieve out of the tap at market. If possible, I'd like to see some fermentation activity.

The total dough batch weight, at least on paper, should be around 592 grams/20.89 ounces. That amount of dough should be just about right to make a single 16" or maybe slightly larger pizza (with a thickness factor of around 0.10), or two roughly 12" pizzas (with a slightly smaller thickness factor value).

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: buceriasdon on May 02, 2011, 05:30:34 PM
Ok, I'm confused, doesn't Bisquick have baking powder in it? What is the purpose of adding more? I found this on the Betty Crocker site for a recipe. Read the comments, good for a chuckle.     
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/bisquick-pizza/df578e3c-9ca3-438b-8780-06f6ea9434c2
Don
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2011, 06:00:29 PM
Norma,

I estimate that the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is around 6 ounces, or 170 grams. We cannot assume that 1/2-cup of water called for by the instructions on the package is the right amount to use if we are to use the Buttermilk Bisquick mix as a base for a pizza mix. That amount is to make biscuits, not pizza dough. So, I would use an amount of water (noted below) that is more in line with what I would use with a cake flour, around 55%.

To the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, I propose to add 6 ounces (170 grams) of King Arthur Bread flour (KABF). Using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, and assuming 7.9% protein content for the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and 12.7% for the KABF, I calculate that the protein content of the final blend is 10.3%. That is in the all-purpose flour category. I also believe that that value is higher than the flour component of the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix you used recently to make your mystery pizza. Adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix will have the effect of reducing the amount of total fat in the blend. It will also reduce the effects of the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You would have to add more of these ingredients to get to the levels of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I don't see a compelling need to add more of these ingredients but if you have them and want to use them, I can give you some percents to use (relative to the weight of the KABF).

I also propose to add more baking powder (Clabber Girl brand), more salt, some sugar as an alternative to dextrose (which I assume you do not have), and some instant dry yeast (IDY). The IDY is intended mainly for crust flavor and possibly some fermentation if such can be achieved in the short dough preparation time. Of course, you could let the dough ferment at room temperature to help achieve more fermentation and get some of the benefits that the longer fermentation would confer on the finished crust. I will leave to you to decide on whether you want to do that. Maybe you want to see if you can make an "instant" dough (just as you did with the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix) and eliminate that step.

Here are the steps to follow to try to transform the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to a pizza crust mix:

Add the contents of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix packet (212 grams/7.48 ounces) to a bowl
Add 6 ounces (170 grams) of KABF
Add 4.59 grams/0.16 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to 1 1/8 t.
Add 2.55 grams/0.09 ounces salt; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 2.04 grams/0.072 ounces of sugar; this comes to 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 4/4 t.

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 93.5 grams/3.3 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix)
Water 2: 105.4 grams/3.72 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF)
Total weight of water: 194.9 grams/7.02 ounces

In light of the novel and uncertain nature of this experiment, you may want to initially hold back on some of the water to be sure that all of it is needed. This is where you may have to exercise your professional judgment as to when the dough has the proper consistency and "feel". That consistency and feel may be the same as when you made your mystery pizza. So, all of the water may not be needed, or maybe more will be needed. I suggest that you use a water temperature of around 130 degrees F, or whatever comparable temperature you can achieve out of the tap at market. If possible, I'd like to see some fermentation activity.

The total dough batch weight, at least on paper, should be around 592 grams/20.89 ounces. That amount of dough should be just about right to make a single 16" or maybe slightly larger pizza (with a thickness factor of around 0.10), or two roughly 12" pizzas (with a slightly smaller thickness factor value).

Good luck.

Peter


Peter,

Your plan sounds good to me to the change the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix into a pizza.  It is interesting to hear that the combination of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and the KABF will make a protein content of about 10.3 % in the final blend of flours. I do have KABF here at home, so that isn’t a problem.  I really don’t think I want to add any eggs, buttermilk, or soy flour this time.  I do have those ingredients, but will wait to see how this Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit pizza turns out. 

You are right that I don’t have any dextrose.  Do you think if I add the KABF, Clabber Girl baking powder, sugar, and IDY to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix tonight, without the salt and water it will be okay.  I could weigh out the salt and measure the water out tomorrow and add it to the rest of the ingredients.  That way it would be much faster for me, if I am busy. 

I could mix the water and salt in the rest of the mix in the morning and watch for fermentation activity.  I would like this dough to get some fermentation activity also, to see if this crust tastes better than the Betty Crocker pizza mix I used last week.  I can understand I might need to hold back or add more water.  I will use the hot water I used last week.

How long did it take for you to figure all what might be needed to be added to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix to turn it into a pizza?  I think you could easily work for the Betty Crocker test kitchens and come up with better formulas for their pizza mixes.

Thanks for setting forth a trial dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2011, 06:03:49 PM

I found this on the Betty Crocker site for a recipe. Read the comments, good for a chuckle.     
http://www.bettycrocker.com/recipes/bisquick-pizza/df578e3c-9ca3-438b-8780-06f6ea9434c2
Don


Don,

Those comments did give me a good chuckle!  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 07:07:34 PM
Norma,

Do you think if I add the KABF, Clabber Girl baking powder, sugar, and IDY to the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix tonight, without the salt and water it will be okay.  I could weigh out the salt and measure the water out tomorrow and add it to the rest of the ingredients.  That way it would be much faster for me, if I am busy.
 

Since the Buttermilk Bisquick mix already contains salt, baking powder and sugar (dextrose), I don't see any harm in adding the new round of dry ingredients to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. You can do that tonight if you want. Alternatively, you can make up a goody bag of the new dry items and mix them into the Buttermilk Bisquick mix tomorrow just prior to making the dough.

Quote
How long did it take for you to figure all what might be needed to be added to the Buttermilk Biscuit mix to turn it into a pizza?

I ended up spending more time on this project than I had originally planned. I had an intuitive feel for what I thought might be done with the Buttermilk Bisquick mix to adapt it to pizza use but I don't like to go through several iterations of anything I do if I can help it. I like to get things right the first time around if possible, even if that means spending more time upfront on the matter. So, I essentially reversed engineered the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps might be taken to modify it for your purposes. I have no idea as to whether what I came up with will work in practice. As it turned out, however, my calculated response was pretty much the same as my intuitive one. I also learned a lot in the process.

FYI, this afternoon I sent an email to Betty Crocker asking whether the dry yeast in their pizza crust mix is dead yeast. I also commented on the fermentation issue, given that it does take time for yeast to participate in the fermentation process. I will be interested in their response and explanation.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 07:22:37 PM
Ok, I'm confused, doesn't Bisquick have baking powder in it? What is the purpose of adding more?

Don,

I don't very often work with chemical leavening systems so before embarking on this assignment for Norma I checked out several biscuit recipes utilizing baking powder and, in some cases, buttermilk. I was looking for quantitative relationships between the various ingredients that go into such recipes, on the assumption that the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is patterned after such recipes. One of those relationships was the relationship between the amount of baking powder and the amount of flour. You are correct that the Buttermilk Bisquick mix already contains baking powder but I added six more ounces of KABF to that mix. I took the baker's percent for the baking powder that I estimated to be used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and applied it to the added KABF flour. I did the same thing with the salt and sugar. I also added IDY. Hopefully, the combination of baking powder and yeast will give a good rise to the crust during baking. Unless this mix works and is an improvement over the mix that Norma used to make her mystery pizza, there would be no reason to use the new mix, especially when you can go out and buy the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix. Trying to convert a mix intended to be used to make biscuits to a pizza dough mix is not the most direct way of getting from point A to point B. It's more like trying to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: buceriasdon on May 02, 2011, 07:29:34 PM
Ah, thank you Peter,I must have missed the KABF. Mea culpa.
DOn
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2011, 08:31:16 PM

It's more like trying to create a silk purse out of a sow's ear :-D.

Peter

Peter,

I will make a “goody bag” up tonight to be mixed into Bisquick Buttermilk mix tomorrow.

I am amazed that you could reverse engineer the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps needed to be taken to modify it for my purpose of making a pizza dough.  You intuition is usually good, in all the other experiments you have helped me with, which have been many. 

I would be interested in what you learned going though the process.

You have made something out of nothing many times, so maybe this formula will work with the added Bisquick Buttermilk mix.  http://libraries.mit.edu/archives/exhibits/purse/index1.html

I am curious what will be Betty Crocker’s response to your email too.

I appreciate all your hard work in all the projects you have helped me with.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Tman1 on May 02, 2011, 09:12:08 PM
Pete-zza,

I recommend calling in to customer service (my wife worked there too!, hated it). They respond way faster to a phone call, if they'll tell you at all.

She (my wife) had great stories about calls into them... I'll miss that.  =]
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 09:22:55 PM
I am amazed that you could reverse engineer the Buttermilk Biscuit mix and then decided what steps needed to be taken to modify it for my purpose of making a pizza dough.  

I would be interested in what you learned going though the process.

Norma,

For this experiment, I tried to get a rough idea as to the baker's percents of the ingredients used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix based on their order in the mix. Then I tried to get an accurate fix on the individual baker's percents. In this case, I was looking mostly at the values of total fat, sodium and potassium. Of those three substances, getting a handle on the fat was perhaps the easiest because most of it is in the shortening (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil). There is also a small amount of fat in the egg (dry egg) but the egg is so far down the list that its contribution is small. Sodium can be tricky because there are multiple sources, including two of the three components in the baking powder, the egg, the buttermilk and plain old salt that is added for flavor. Potassium is mainly in the flour but there is also some in the egg, the buttermilk and the soy flour. In order to see what is in each ingredient and their amounts, I usually end up spending a fair amount of time at the SelfNutritionData website looking at the Nutrition Facts for all of the critical ingredients and calculating quantities. That is where I learn a lot. And, the more you do it, the more knowledgeable you become and the better you get at it. 

Based on the numbers on paper, I think the dough mix you now have should work, and hopefully will produce something that is edible. What I don't know is whether the pizza will be any good in the context of a short term dough and pizza with little or no yeast fermentation (unless Betty tells me otherwise). I did not have the luxury of removing anything from the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I could only add things. It's not the optimum way to design things.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2011, 09:26:06 PM
I recommend calling in to customer service (my wife worked there too!, hated it). They respond way faster to a phone call, if they'll tell you at all.

Tman1,

Thanks for the suggestion. Sometimes when I am in the middle of things, as I was with this project, I will just quickly send off an email. If I don't hear back within a few days, I then call.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 09:48:52 PM
Well, to tell the truth the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix in combination with Peter’s formula turned out great!  This "Sukie" pizza was the most different pizza I have ever made.  It even had a great taste in the crust.  Sukie’s offspring would have been proud!  Great job Peter!  :chef: ;D

I mixed the “goody bag” into the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and added the total formula water for the buttermilk biscuit mix and the amount Peter recommended for the added ingredients.  After mixing with a rubber spatula the mixture looked okay, but since it didn’t seem as sticky as last week, I added water two times and kneaded the water in with my hands, on my marble slab.  I added a total of .40 oz. of extra water into the dough.  I didn’t make a dough ball, but let the dough rise for 2 hrs.  Then I balled the dough and let it rise for another 2 hrs. I did oil the dough ball then. The dough rose to the top of the container after 2 hrs., as can be seen in the one picture.  After balling the dough, it fermented well again.  As can be seen in the one picture of the dough ball, there was what looked like fat in the dough. 

The dough ball was easy to open.  The pizza baked well and really browned nice.  There was even a nice oven spring. The rim was moist and the crust was very good.  I never would have know, if I didn’t tried this, that such a good crust could be made in such a short while.  I would invite anyone to try this Bisquick Buttermilk mix and Peter’s formula.  That is how good I thought it was.  Steve really liked this buttermilk biscuit “Sukie” pizza too.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 09:52:02 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 09:54:09 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 09:57:07 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 09:59:29 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 10:01:56 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 10:03:15 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
Norma,

Well, I'll be damned!! You mean we actually made a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I was afraid the mix would not work out and I started to write my concession speech. I hadn't planned on an acceptance speech :-D.

Now, if someone stops you on the street and says "Ma'am, I just bought a packet of Betty Crocker's Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix at my local supermarket. Can you tell me how to make a pizza out of it?", you'll be able to say "Yes".

I assume that you made a 16" pizza out of the dough. Is that right? And how did the pizza compare with the mystery pizza you made?

BTW, I saved my notes with all the numbers. If you'd like the baker's percents for the egg, buttermilk and soy flour, I can give them to you in case you'd like to try adding more of those ingredients in a future effort.

The pizza does look good. I am impressed.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2011, 10:36:46 PM
Norma,

I liked your little piggies that went to market. I hope they don't end up this way: http://www.flickr.com/photos/martypinker/5469188586/.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 11:24:05 PM
Norma,

Well, I'll be damned!! You mean we actually made a silk purse out of a sow's ear? I was afraid the mix would not work out and I started to write my concession speech. I hadn't planned on an acceptance speech :-D.

Now, if someone stops you on the street and says "Ma'am, I just bought a packet of Betty Crocker's Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix at my local supermarket. Can you tell me how to make a pizza out of it?", you'll be able to say "Yes".

I assume that you made a 16" pizza out of the dough. Is that right? And how did the pizza compare with the mystery pizza you made?

BTW, I saved my notes with all the numbers. If you'd like the baker's percents for the egg, buttermilk and soy flour, I can give them to you in case you'd like to try adding more of those ingredients in a future effort.

The pizza does look good. I am impressed.

Peter

Peter,

You are right, we did actually make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear.  ;D  I was surprised how well the Bisquick Buttermilk mix did work in combination with your formula.  I never doubted your ability to come up with a formula, but didn’t think it would work out this good.  You can plan your acceptance speech now.  

I now can tell someone if they ask me on the street, how to make a pizza out of Betty Crocker’s Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix.  Maybe Betty Crocker should take some lessons from you!  

You are correct, I did make a 16" pizza out of the mix.  As can be seen in the last picture, I didn’t open  part of the dough right. It was a little thicker in a couple of spots in the center.  I don’t know about you, but to me it almost looks like a Pizzarium crumb.  This crumb was light.  I can’t decide what this pizza crust tasted like, but it sure was different and good.  The mystery pizza was no comparison with this pizza.  The mystery pizza was okay, but this pizza had a lot of flavor in the crust.  How can that be possible in such a short amount of time?  

I probably will be interested in trying one or a combination of egg, buttermilk and soy flour.  Good you saved your notes.  What approach do you think I should try next week?  

You should be impressed, you were the one that came up with the formula.

 
Norma,

I liked your little piggies that went to market. I hope they don't end up this way: http://www.flickr.com/photos/martypinker/5469188586/.

Peter

I am glad you like my little piggies that went to market.  After the pizza turned out so well, I just went down a few stands to the variety store and purchased them.  They were only .69 cents.  I thought at least this pizza deserved something special since we did accomplish what we set out to do.  

I appreciate all your help in this pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2011, 11:36:12 PM
Peter,

I forgot to answer you question about what happened to the little piggies.  They were put into a drawer to see if another pizza works with the Betty Crocker buttermilk biscuit mix.  They didn't end up like the picture you posted a link to.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Ev on May 04, 2011, 06:40:00 AM
I was impressed with the outcome of this trial as well. By far, the most dramatic and interesting departure, taste-wise, from Normas' "normal" dough. Like Norma, I found the texture to be much like her earlier "Pizzerium" dough. It was hard to exactly nail down the flavor, but I'd say it had that classic "Bisquik" taste and also reminded me of an extra fluffy pancake. While I enjoyed the fairly complex flavor, by the time I finished one slice, I had the distinct sensation of becoming quite "full". Normally, a good pizza keeps me coming back for more.
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 07:28:12 AM
I was impressed with the outcome of this trial as well. By far, the most dramatic and interesting departure, taste-wise, from Normas' "normal" dough. Like Norma, I found the texture to be much like her earlier "Pizzerium" dough. It was hard to exactly nail down the flavor, but I'd say it had that classic "Bisquik" taste and also reminded me of an extra fluffy pancake. While I enjoyed the fairly complex flavor, by the time I finished one slice, I had the distinct sensation of becoming quite "full". Normally, a good pizza keeps me coming back for more.

Steve,

My daughter also said the reheated slice of the Betty Crocker buttermilk biscuit mix with Peter's added formula did almost tasted like fluffy pancakes.  Her taste and yours must be about the same.  Addison also thought this pizza tasted something like fluffy pancakes.  He is one of our best taste testers.   :)

I have one little leftover slice, that I am going to reheat today, to be able to taste it again.

This is another picture, among my other pictures I took yesterday, that I forgot post last evening.  We sure got a chuckle out the little piggies.   :-D

Norma

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 09:41:15 AM
The mystery pizza was okay, but this pizza had a lot of flavor in the crust.  How can that be possible in such a short amount of time?  

Norma,

I think that there are several possible contributors to the flavor profile of the crust for the Sukie pizza you made. Usually, when oils are used in a dough, especially if used in large amounts, there can be a rather pronounced effect on the finished crust flavor, However, with the partially-hydrogenated fats used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, which are likely to be highly sanitized for a major retail product from a company like General Mills, it is hard to say how much those fats contribute to finished crust flavor. I can see more of an effect on mouthfeel and the texture of the finished crust. I think that the more probable contributors to crust flavor were the baking soda in the baking powders used in the dough (both from the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and the Clabber Girl baking powder) and the egg, buttermilk and soy flour in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I think that the addition of the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) also perhaps added its own wheaty flavor component while boosting the protein content to move the dough away from the biscuit category to the pizza category. The large amount of IDY that was used (about 0.68% of the total flour) might also have added some flavor to the finished crust, along with some fermentation byproducts, even for the short total fermentation time.

As a point of clarification, was the total fermentation time for the dough 4 hours-- two hours in rough form in the bowl and two hours in balled form?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 10:44:21 AM
Norma,

To have an online record of my analysis of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I have set forth below the baker's percents that I arrived at for that mix. I was not trying to be exact, since that would have required a lot more work, but I at least wanted to get the pecking order of the ingredients in the ballpark. I might add in this respect that I have discovered from my past work in reverse engineering products that it is not necessary to get all of the numbers exactly right. As long as the pecking order is close, the formulation can tolerate some variations in the amounts of the ingredients without having a material effect on the finished product.

100%, Flour (I assumed a bleached cake flour with fairly low protein content)
22%, Partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil
3%, Leavening (baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate)
2.7%, Buttermilk
1.5%, Salt
1.0%, Dextrose
0.75%, Egg
0.25%, Soy flour

When I assumed a value of 5.7 ounces for the flour component of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and applied all of the remaining baker's percents to that amount of flour, I got a total weight of about 213 ounces. That was one ounce more than the net weight of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix of 212 grams. It would have taken too much work to get the weights exactly the same but, even then, there would not have been any assurance that my numbers would have been more correct for having gone through all of the extra effort.

By adding the 6 ounces of KABF to the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, we in effect cut the amount of fat in half. I did that so the finished crust would have more of pizza texture than a biscuit texture. To have moved the needle of the mix further into pizza territory would have required adding more KABF--maybe even a lot more. That would have further diluted the effects of the fats. However, since that would also have diluted the effects of the other ingredients, such as the buttermilk, egg and soy flour, whose flavors I wanted to keep as much as possible, I opted to limit the addition of the KABF to 6 ounces. That might help explain why the finished crust had some attributes normally associated with pancakes. By the same token, that might also help explain why you liked the Sukie pizza better than the mystery pizza. While I haven't tried to reverse engineer the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, at first blush it looks like the flour used in that mix is also a low protein flour, such as a cake flour.

To determine how much more leavening, salt and sugar (as an alternative to the dextrose) to add to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I simply applied the baker's percents listed above for those ingredients to the 6 ounces of flour. Had I done the same thing for the buttermilk, egg and soy flour, I would have added 0.162 ounces/4.59 grams of dried buttermilk powder (about 2 1/4 t.), 0.045 ounces/1.28 grams of dried (whole) egg (about 3/4 t.), and 0.015 ounces/0.43 grams of (defatted) soy flour (about 1/4 t.).

As you can see, there is a fair amount of room to change things. It all depends on what flavor and textural attributes you would like to have in the finished pizza.

For comparison purposes, here, again, is the makeup of the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix:

Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix
Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Wheat Flour, Malted Barley, Niacin, Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Partially Hydrogenated Soybean and/or Cottonseed Oil, Dextrose, Dried Yeast, Salt, Sodium Aluminum Phosphate, Baking Soda, Egg, Nonfat Milk, Soy Flour, Freshness Preserved by BHA

Peter
Edit: Corrected baker's percents
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 11:14:19 AM
It is interesting to hear you think the Betty Crocker Pizza mix had dead yeast (glutathione) to give the crust better flavor.  I didn’t think the yeast had enough time to transform for fermentation of the dough.  

Norma,

It looks like I was wrong on this one. I heard back from General Mills/Betty Crocker this morning with the following reply: No the yeast used in this product is a active yeast.

I was hoping to get more on the effect of using an active yeast in a very small window of about 15 minutes. Unfortunately, I did not get that. However, that doesn't rule out the possibility that the active yeast is used for flavor contribution. Also, since the yeast is listed fairly high up in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, as can be seen in my last post (there is more of the yeast than the salt), it is also possible that there can be a more rapid rise in the dough, using the natural sugars in the flour and the dextrose added to the mix. Dextrose is a form of glucose and a simple sugar, so maybe that helps get the yeast going.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 12:03:36 PM
What approach do you think I should try next week?  

Norma,

I don't have anything specific in mind. But one intriguing possibility that occurs to me might be to try to do something along the lines of a pizza dough with the Cheese-Garlic Bisquick mix that you also purchased recently. However, that product is a materially more involved and complicated formulation than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. For example, it includes vegetable oil in addition to the partially-hydrogenated fats, corn syrup solids (which is not the same as regular corn syrup), garlic, dried cheddar cheese, three other milk-derived ingredients, garlic powder, onion powder, and several chemical that you are unlikely to have in your pantry. Maybe you can make a quickie garlic version of the Mack's clone pizza, using white cheddar cheese or a blend of white cheddar cheese and mozzarella cheese, along with a Mack's-like pizza sauce.

Because of the complex and hard-to-decipher formulation of the Cheese-Garlic mix, you would perhaps really have to wing it to get to something to try out. For example, you could add some KABF, as before (maybe even increase its amount), more leavening, some IDY, and a bit more salt. Nothing else--unless you like the taste of garlic and onion powder and do not want to dilute their flavor effects because of the added KABF. For the sake of simplicity, you could use the same "goody bag" in terms of ingredients and amounts that you used for the pizza made using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix but leave out the sugar this time since the Cheese-Garlic mix already has enough sweeteners in the form of corn syrup solids, dextrose and sugar. So, diluting the effects of those ingredients might be a good thing for a Mack's type clone. The net weight of the Cheese-Garlic mix would be a bit more than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, but the total weight would still in the range for making a 16" pizza, or you can scale back the weight of the final dough to the desired value. As before, you would have to play around with the water content in order to get the desired final dough consistency and feel. If you would like to try to make a Mack's quickie clone, you might even keep the hydration down to get the typical textural characteristics of a Mack's crust. You would also use water at a temperature as you used to make the latest pizza.

Peter

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 02:31:27 PM
Peter,

Thanks for telling me what you thought were the possible contributors to the flavor profile of the Sukie pizza.  I have to reheat the little leftover slice to see what I think of the crust taste today.  I still couldn’t believe how good that crust tasted with such a short time of fermentation.  I would have thought it had been fermented for a much longer time. I also want to taste the crust again after it is reheated to see if I can detect the sugar in the crust.  Steve mentioned yesterday he could detect a small amount of sugar in the crust, but I couldn’t.

I hope someone else tries out the Betty Crocker Buttermilk biscuit mix with your formula and sees if they get the same results in the taste of the crust.

For the point of clarification the dough was left to ferment for 2 hrs and then another 2 hrs balled.  It was 84 degrees ambient room temperature at market yesterday, give or take a few degrees.  If someone else decides to try this dough, I would think they would need to watch the dough to see if it ferments the same at a lower or different room temperature.

It is interesting from all your reverse engineering of different products, that you found you don’t need to get all the numbers exactly right, but just have them in the right pecking order.  

Your analysis of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is interesting in that you think there was 16%, Partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil added.  That is a lot of oil.  It is also interesting that you came within one gram when figuring out all the numbers in baker’s percent.  I think your idea was good to only cut the fat in half, by adding 6oz. of KABF.  I can see there is a fair amount room to change things if I or someone else wants to.

Thanks for posting that you heard back from Better Crocker/General Mills on what kind of yeast that is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick mix.  It is interesting that active yeast could give any flavor contribution in such a short time.

Before I would make any changes to the Bisquick buttermilk mix I have tried, (like adding egg, buttermilk or soy flour) I think I would like to try the cheese-garlic Bisquick mix, in an attempt next week.  I think for the sake of simplicity, I will just use the “goody bag” (you set-forth) without the sugar to see what happens. The idea of a Mack’s quickie clone sounds interesting.  What gave you the idea of a Mack’s quickie clone, relating to the cheese-garlic biscuits?  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 03:00:52 PM
Norma,

When I did some research on biscuit recipes using shortening, I found that the fat content could get as high as 30-40%, at least for the recipes I looked at. Unless we wanted to end up with a deep-dish type of dough, that meant that I had to find a way of cutting back on the fat content of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I also wanted to ratchet up the protein content of the blend. That is where the KABF came in to help solve both problems. As you can see, there is both a technical and a subjective component of the exercise. Even if I was wrong on what I did, we know that adding the "goody bag" components to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix works if one follows what you did.

The Mack's clone idea hit me because of the cheddar cheese in the Cheese-Garlic mix. The idea also occurred to me to add some more cheddar (cheddar cheese powder) to the final mix (in the "goody bag") but I was afraid that if too many things are added to the dough that might compromise the rise of the dough and the oven spring.

It's entirely up to you how you would like to use the Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. I was just trying to be creative as to a possible use within the pizza realm and how to move the mix from the biscuit realm to the pizza realm.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 04:39:57 PM
Norma,

When I did some research on biscuit recipes using shortening, I found that the fat content could get as high as 30-40%, at least for the recipes I looked at. Unless we wanted to end up with a deep-dish type of dough, that meant that I had to find a way of cutting back on the fat content of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix. I also wanted to ratchet up the protein content of the blend. That is where the KABF came in to help solve both problems. As you can see, there is both a technical and a subjective component of the exercise. Even if I was wrong on what I did, we know that adding the "goody bag" components to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix works if one follows what you did.

The Mack's clone idea hit me because of the cheddar cheese in the Cheese-Garlic mix. The idea also occurred to me to add some more cheddar (cheddar cheese powder) to the final mix (in the "goody bag") but I was afraid that if too many things are added to the dough that might compromise the rise of the dough and the oven spring.

It's entirely up to you how you would like to use the Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. I was just trying to be creative as to a possible use within the pizza realm and how to move the mix from the biscuit realm to the pizza realm.

Peter

Peter,

I can see there is a subjective and technical component of what you did to make the Bisquick Buttermilk mix more in line with a pizza.  I can see where KABF did solve both problems of fat and higher protein.  I might be trying this same formula or one with either one of the other ingredients you mentioned before, in the coming weeks, to make sure I will get the identical results. 

I can get orange cheddar cheese powder at our local Country Store, if you think it might be a good ingredient to try in the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix in combination with the other goodies.  I appreciate how you took the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix into the pizza realm.

I just heated a little slice of the Sukie pizza if you or anyone else is interested.  I was surprised that the reheated slice tastes as good or better than yesterday.  The rim and bottom got nice and crispy and the crumb stayed nice and moist.  I couldn’t detect any sugar in the crust when it was reheated.  The crust still tastes like a really different long fermented crust.  The slice droops, but is crispy on the rim and edges, if that makes sense.

Steve and I were talking yesterday about this pizza and from the taste of the crust and the moistness of the rim, we thought this tasted almost like the Fairmount Bagel pizza I tried on the milk kefir thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg118487.html#msg118487

If I continue to have good results with the biscuit mixes, in combination with your “goody bag”, this sure would be an easier way to make a pizza, than all the work I did for the Fairmount Bagel pizza.  :) I never could recreate the exact same taste with the milk kefir Fairmount Bagel pizza.

You are creative in making a biscuit mix into a pizza.  :)

Pictures of reheated little Sukie slice today.(the bigger slice was the manteca lard slice)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 05:00:18 PM
Norma,

I don't see any need to add more cheddar cheese powder to the dough, particularly if you plan to try to make a Mack's instant clone pizza. But, that is up to you. If you like the cheddar cheese flavor in the crust, then by all means add some.

Recently when I was in the supermarkets near me I checked to see if I could find the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix that you used. I could not find it in those stores. I looked for other pizza related mixes but could not find anything other than the Jiffy pizza mix and a Kroger pizza mix. Apparently in my area, people just don't make their own pizzas. Can you tell me what you paid for the three mixes you purchased?

I can now see from your latest photos how you were reminded of the Pizzarium pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 07:39:42 PM
Norma,

In reviewing my notes and the Nutrition Facts for the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I discovered an error that I made when trying to calculate the amount of fat in that mix. It now appears that the total fat content may be around 22%. As a result of that change, I made a few minor adjustments to the baker's percents for some of the ingredients so that the numbers would add up correctly and I corrected some of the numbers in my earlier posts. I did not change the numbers that you used for your "goody bag" since those numbers worked out well for you. Had I made the changes, they would have been minor in any event. The major components of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix are the flour and the partially-hydrogenated fats. If my math is right this time, those two ingredients appear to make up almost 93% of the total weight of the ingredients in the mix. The rest of the ingredients make up the roughly trmaining 7% of the mix.

Fortunately, all one has to do is add the "goody bag" to the contents of a pouch of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, add water, and follow your instructions. The baker's percents for the mix itself are only material if one wants to try to make a clone of that mix.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 10:17:49 PM
Peter,

I only noticed the Betty Crocker pizza mix I had used in my first post in some store near me, but I can’t remember where I bought that pizza mix now.  I did have it at market for a few months and told Steve, some day we would try it at market to see what would happen.  On the spur of the moment last week we decided to try it.  Now I wish I could remember where I purchased it.  I only go to a few supermarkets near me, Sam’s Club and WalMart, but now I can’t find that Betty Crocker pizza mix. When I went to my family owned supermarket, they don’t have any pizza mixes except Chef Boyardee with the sauce and cheese included with the mix. The new supermarket (Giant) that recently opened near me did have the Bisquick Buttermilk and Cheese-Garlic biscuit mixes.  They were .85 cents a piece.  I think that is about what I also paid for the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  Maybe people in my area don’t use pizza mixes either.  I wish you could find and try the Bisquick Buttermilk mix in combination with your “goody bag” to see if you also would have the same results.  

On my reheated slice, that was one slice that I didn’t have the dough opened up enough.  I should have been more careful in opening the dough, but was also surprised how much that and a couple more slices reminded me of a Pizzarium crumb.  

Since you have found your error in calculating, the fat content (22%) is a lot.  It is interesting that the flour and fat make up 93% of the ingredients.  

I wonder how a regular Original Bisquick mix would stack up to the Buttermilk mix.  It probably would also have a lot of flour and fat in baker's percents, also.

I will try the cheese-garlic Bisquick mix out next week and probably also will get another Bisquick Buttermilk mix to try in following weeks.  In my opinion and Steve’s this was one different pizza, great tasting crust, and really easy to make.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 11:14:36 PM
Norma,

Actually, the Bisquick Original mix contains considerably less fat than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix on a per serving basis. Remember that the Bisquick Original mix is a basic one that is intended to be used to make several different types of end products. Depending on what you want to make, you have to add things like milk, butter or eggs, or some combination of these. These ingredients contain a fair amount of fat that has to be considered when calculating the total fat in the end product. Basically, the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, fat (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil), baking powder, dextrose and salt. You would have to add a bunch of things to it to be able to make a pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 11:29:06 PM
Norma,

Actually, the Bisquick Original mix contains considerably less fat than the Buttermilk Bisquick mix on a per serving basis. Remember that the Bisquick Original mix is a basic one that is intended to be used to make several different types of end products. Depending on what you want to make, you have to add things like milk, butter or eggs, or some combination of these. These ingredients contain a fair amount of fat that has to be considered when calculating the total fat in the end product. Basically, the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, fat (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil), baking powder, dextrose and salt. You would have to add a bunch of things to it to be able to make a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the Original Bisquick would need a lot of other ingredients added to be able to make a pizza.  I was just curious because the first four ingredients are what is listed in the buttermilk biscuit mix. I know I have tried the Original Bisquick in many kinds of the products over the years, and knew I had to add other ingredients.

I understand that the Original Bisquick does have a lower fat per one serving.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2011, 11:38:59 PM
Norma,

I perhaps should have said that you may have to do things with the Bisquick Original mix to make a dough and pizza that you would consider worthy. If you do a Google search, you will find all kinds of pizzas made with the Bisquick Original mix. What I read when I did such a search I didn't find particularly inspiring.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2011, 11:50:10 PM
Norma,

I perhaps should have said that you may have to do things with the Bisquick Original mix to make a dough and pizza that you would consider worthy. If you do a Google search, you will find all kinds of pizzas made with the Bisquick Original mix. What I read when I did such a search I didn't find particularly inspiring.

Peter

Peter,

I think I know what you meant, when you posted that I would have to do things with the Original Bisquick mix to make a pizza I or other members think would be worthy of being called a pizza.  I just find it interesting that maybe a pizza could be made out of the Original Bisquick mix.  I will do a Google search in the next few days about using the Original Bisquick mix for pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2011, 07:57:54 AM
Peter,

Do you think if I would add 2.7%, Buttermilk,1.5%,  Salt,1.0%,  Dextrose, 0.75% (regular sugar), Egg (dried), 0.25%,  Soy flour (from your numbers referenced before), some extra sugar,  soybean oil and salt to the regular Original Bisquick mix, in combination with your “goody bag”, that would work to try and make a pizza?

I am not good at figuring out the numbers, but just wanted to know if you think it would work.

I did Google pizzas made from the Original Bisquick mix and although some of them, from really old recipes, did look okay, they didn’t really appeal to me.  I know I have a really old Bisquick recipe booklet in my shed somewhere, along with other really old recipe books, but I have no idea of where I have those books or booklets stored in a box.  I don’t think the Original Bisquick booklet has any pizza recipes though.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2011, 11:36:36 AM
Norma,

When a product like the Bisquick Original mix contains only flour, partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil, leavening (baking powder), dextrose (sugar) and salt, there are endless ways of modifying that combination to make other products. So, what you are striving for becomes important. For example, do you want to come up with a mix like the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust mix, or possibly one like the mix that you made using the Buttermilk Bisquick mix with the "goody bag", or possibly something else different from those two examples?

But, whatever the answer, to come up with the proper numbers, I believe that you have to have at least a general idea as to the composition of the Bisquick Original mix from a baker's percent standpoint. Once that is known, then you have a much better shot at coming up with the proper set of numbers. Also, I noticed from the General Mills website that the Bisquick Original mix comes in a 40-ounce box. So, some scaling down of the amount to use will be necessary no matter what application you decide on.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2011, 12:38:12 PM
Norma,

To my last post, I might add that there are two Bisquick "Original" mixes, one in a 40-ounce box and another in a 5.5-ounce pouch. At first, I thought they were the same product but in different size packages. However, when I looked at the Nutrition Facts for the two products, I saw that one (the pouch product) had about a third more total fat per serving and more sodium per serving. This confused me, so I called General Mills and spoke with a very nice lady who told me that the two products were not the same. The 40-ounce Original product is an "Original Pancake and Baking Mix", whereas the 5,5-ounce product is just an "Original All-Purpose Baking Mix". They are different and the pouch does indeed have more fat and sodium per serving. The ingredients lists for the two products are identical, which is also what originally confused me. I was not able to find the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix in a pouch size, which might be more convenient for your purposes, albeit more expensive on a unit basis.

Which of the above products would you plan to use?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2011, 01:21:07 PM
Peter,

I have the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, that is 40 oz. (2 LB. 8 OZ) 1.13 kg.  I bought it to make shortcake for strawberries I had bought at market this past Tuesday.  This is the product I would like to possibly make into a pizza, in combination with other ingredients, if possible.  I would like to make something like the Buttermilk “Sukie” pizza if it can be made.  

Thanks for calling General Mills and talking to the nice lady that told you about the two products.  I never knew there was a product in a pouch before.  At least I never saw it at a grocery store near me.  

This is what the shortcake looked like from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  It sure doesn’t look anything like a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2011, 04:50:54 PM
I would like to make something like the Buttermilk “Sukie” pizza if it can be made.  

Norma,

To do what you would like to do, and hopefully to do it right, I estimate that it would take me several multiples of the effort that I put into the last exercise. I would first have to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to get the ingredient quantities and baker's percents, adapt it by adding more of the same ingredients and other ingredients to get something equivalent to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and a final quantity of that mix, scale the results down to a specific total mix weight, and then decide what goes into the "goody bag" other than the items previously used, along with their baker's percents. There may also be obstacles that I do not now know exist.

You might try the approach you proposed. I perhaps could do some work to see if it will work but I would rather take only one bite at the apple.

This afternoon, while I was at a local supermarket that carries just about everything, I checked the Bisquick products that they carry. They only carry the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix (in a couple box sizes), a heart healthy version, and a gluten-free version. I did not see any pouches for the biscuit mix or any Betty Crocker Pizza Crust. I checked some of the recipes on the boxes of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and saw that they require the addition of one of more of milk, eggs, butter or margarine. That is what makes it difficult to do what you would like to do. The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is too basic. By contrast, the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is entirely self-contained with everything in it that is needed to make biscuits other than the water. I realize that it would be nice just to scoop some of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix out of a large box and add things to it to make a good pizza, but, regrettably, to get to that point is not exactly a walk in the park.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2011, 06:51:16 PM
Norma,

To do what you would like to do, and hopefully to do it right, I estimate that it would take me several multiples of the effort that I put into the last exercise. I would first have to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to get the ingredient quantities and baker's percents, adapt it by adding more of the same ingredients and other ingredients to get something equivalent to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix and a final quantity of that mix, scale the results down to a specific total mix weight, and then decide what goes into the "goody bag" other than the items previously used, along with their baker's percents. There may also be obstacles that I do not now know exist.

You might try the approach you proposed. I perhaps could do some work to see if it will work but I would rather take only one bite at the apple.

This afternoon, while I was at a local supermarket that carries just about everything, I checked the Bisquick products that they carry. They only carry the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix (in a couple box sizes), a heart healthy version, and a gluten-free version. I did not see any pouches for the biscuit mix or any Betty Crocker Pizza Crust. I checked some of the recipes on the boxes of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and saw that they require the addition of one of more of milk, eggs, butter or margarine. That is what makes it difficult to do what you would like to do. The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is too basic. By contrast, the Buttermilk Bisquick mix is entirely self-contained with everything in it that is needed to make biscuits other than the water. I realize that it would be nice just to scoop some of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix out of a large box and add things to it to make a good pizza, but, regrettably, to get to that point is not exactly a walk in the park.

Peter

Peter,

You have done enough work on the buttermilk biscuit “Sukie” pizza.  That turned out great!  ;D I will do what I have proposed to see if it works out, with the Bisquick Original Baking mix.  I can understand you always like to be precise.

Since you can’t find any of the Bisquick biscuit mixes and Betty Crocker pizza mixes, at a supermarket that just about carries anything, it makes me wonder just how many stores do carry those products.  I did see the Heart Healthy version and the Gluten-free version of Bisquick at my supermarket, too.  I know this won’t be a walk in the park, but I since I like to experiment, I will try out my version.  I can understand the Bisquick Original baking mix is too basic. 

Since I also plan on using the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix too this coming Tuesday, with your "goody bag",  we can just wait and see what happens.  I know the Original Bisquick and the Buttermilk biscuit mix aren’t the same, but they feel and look the same.   

Norma 
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 06:56:20 AM
This is my formula for the pizza that is going to be made with the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.
 
16" pizza
205 grams of Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix
4.59 grams dried buttermilk powder
1.28 grams dried whole egg
.43 grams soy flour
1 teaspoon soybean oil
added “goody bag” from “Sukie” pizza

If anyone sees anything wrong with the way I propose to  make the attempt with the “Sukie” dough, let me know. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2011, 04:25:22 PM
Norma,

Judging from what appears to be a high sodium content in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, it is possible that the mix contains higher than normal levels of leavening and salt--higher than the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix that you used for your last pizza with the "goody bag". It is hard to say for sure because the leavening in the mix is not the same as the Clabber Girl baking powder and may have a higher sodium content than the Clabber Girl product. That said, there could well be a logical basis for higher levels of at least the salt. Remember that one using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix may end up adding eggs and milk to the mix such that the salt is spread over the entire finished product. I have not been able to determine the actual leavening content of the mix, but you might think about reducing the amount of the Clabber Girl baking powder in the "goody bag" that you plan to use. With the yeast in the final mix and using the fairly hot water, together with a reasonable period of fermentation, you may not need as much baking powder.

I have some other thoughts on your formulation but I'd rather that you proceed in accordance with the plan that you laid out. Your results might help answer some unanswered questions and possibly confirm what I believe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to be. I did check out your math, and the numbers add up to around 592 grams. So that weight should work out fine for a 16" pizza. It will be interesting to see what you get. What you are essentially trying to do is to convert a mix intended to make things like pancakes to something to make biscuits and then transform that to something that can be used to make pizza. From pancakes to biscuits to pizza. These are all unnatural acts :-D. It must be something in the Pennsylvania water.

FYI, I went to another store this afternoon to check out the available Bisquick products. Whereas the last store I went to the other day caters to a high income demographic, where the people appear to be disinclined to make pizza at home from boxed mixes or pouches, the store I went to today caters to a low income demographic, with a predominantly Hispanic clientele. Apparently the customers of that store don't bake pizzas either. There were far fewer Bisquick products in that store than the other, and none whatsoever in pouches. I saw many pancake mixes whose labels I scrutinized, and found very interesting and informative, but none were like the Bisquick products. There is one store left for me to check out, a Kroger store, that perhaps fits in the middle of the two other stores.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 05:59:52 PM
Peter,

I didn’t see you had posted because I was busy, but I will answer you post in my next post.  I just came on to post this.   :o

Peter and anyone that is interested,

I decided today, I was curious and wanted to see if the formula I had proposed in my last post would work, so I thought I would give it a try today, after I returned from market.

Before anyone tries the “Sukie” pizza, and before I go further with this experiment with the “Sukie” pizza, I want to let everyone know, I didn’t use KABF with the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix.  I decided today after I was finished at market, to mix a dough as I had proposed in my last post. I did mix the dough with the method I had proposed and the dough came together nicely and this time I had to add 12 grams of extra water, to make the dough seem like Tuesday.  I don’t know if that was because I had used the extra, buttermilk, soy flour and dried (eggs whites), or not.  I will get to the dried eggs whites later.  When I went to mix what I thought was the KABF, I thought about where I had purchased that flour.  It was at the Country Store.  I then remembered the mix-up before about how their flours are labeled.  I decided to call the Country Store to see really what kind of flour I had since it isn’t labeled bread flour on the label.  I had thought when I purchased the KA flour awhile ago, I was getting bread flour, but now remember the mix-up in how their flours are labeled.  I first got the owner of the Country Store, and she said I could use the King Arthur flour for either All-purpose or Bread flour.  I said I didn’t think so, and I specifically need KABF.  She then went and talked to Jamey, who is the man that orders the products for the Country Store.  He said it also could be used for anything.  I then asked if they purchased the KA flour at C.O. Nolt & Sons, and they said no, they purchased the King Arthur flour at Dutch Valley and it has 4 grams of protein.  I then inquired some more and they said the flour was Special flour by King Arthur.  I think now the mystery is solved, and the flour is King Arthur Special Flour.  They still didn’t know specifically what kind of flour they were selling, but I went to Dutch Valley’s website and this is what I think the Country Store is selling. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/154deaee-d1ca-4c19-8a3e-6279458e93be

http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/images/catimages/142050.pdf

I don’t really know what protein this flour is, but maybe that is why I had such good results.  I don’t want anyone to try what I did and then not have the results I did.  Would using this flour give me better results with the “Sukie” pizza?

Back to what I thought I had at home being dried whole eggs.  When I went to get what I thought was a bag of dried whole eggs out of the cupboard the bag was Egg White Solids.  I did mix it into the mix I am trying today.  The Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, was mixed in with the sweet buttermilk, egg white solids, and soy flour, plus the “goody bag”.  I also added another 3/4 teaspoon of buttermilk, to the above mix, because I had no idea how the egg white solids and dried whole eggs were different.

Sorry, if I created confusion.  :-[

Picture of the dough now mixed and picture of the products I have at home to make this pizza today, especially the KA flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 06:03:31 PM
now I even forgot to post the pictures!..lol
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2011, 06:29:22 PM
Norma,

The King Arthur Special flour and the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) are the same flour. The Special name is used for the foodservice version of the retail KABF product. If you look at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html, you can tell that the Special flour is the same as the KABF because the protein content is 12.7%.

It perhaps was a good idea to increase the amount of buttermilk powder. I had earlier concluded that you were on the low side.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 06:35:18 PM
Peter,

I didn’t know the KA Special flour and the KABF were the same. 

To follow up on your post, I did add everything I had proposed, but added extra sweet buttermilk and also extra water, as you already saw, but I am not writing this post over again.  I didn’t add hot water, but regular room temperature water.  I can see the “new dough” is rising faster than before.  It has only been about 1 hr. 20 minutes since I mixed the dough and it looks like it is fermenting faster, but at least it feels like dough.  You are probably right about not adding as much of the Clabber Girl baking powder.  I tasted it and it also tastes like dough, but with a Bisquick twist.

I am curious about what you thoughts are now about my formulation, other than the buttermilk now. You might as well tell me now, because the dough is already mixed.  At least my math is making a 16" pizza or a whatchamacallit.  I know there must be something in the water here in Pa.,  that keeps making me do some dumb stuff.

It is interesting that you checked out another store today to see if you could find the Bisquick Buttermilk pouches or Betty Crocker pizza mixes.  It still makes me wonder just how many people use those pouches for even biscuits.

We will see if a pancake turned into a biscuit, can turn into a pizza later tonight.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 07:01:47 PM
Well, here is what the whatchamacallit dough looks like after two hours.  :-D  Does anyone think it is time to ball the dough?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 07:20:39 PM
Well..the dough is balled now.  ::)

Norma

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2011, 07:49:37 PM
Norma,

Before I comment on your dough formulation, let me bring you up to date on some matters that relate to the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.

I spent a lot of time yesterday trying to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. I think what complicated matters is that I was having trouble finding publicly available information that matched the Nutrition Facts for the mix. I concluded that it was perhaps likely that GM uses ingredients made especially for them with specific characteristics that are not reflected in the publicly available data at SelfNutritionFacts and similar sources. After more research, I finally came up with a set of baker's percents that appeared to me to be credible. It then hit me that the unit that makes the Bisquick products is a part of General Mills. So, thinking that the Bisquick unit was most likely using a GM flour, I researched all of the bleached cake flours that GM sells. One that looked promising is the Pureasnow cake flour. First thing this morning, I sent an email to Tom Huff at GM in which I asked him what flours that GM sells might be most suitable to make pancakes. I also asked him if he had a formulation that he could share with me. I told him that I was looking at something that could be used to make a mix that was like the Bisquick mix. I did not expect that he would give me the Bisquick formulation but I wanted to get an idea as to possible baker's percents.

This afternoon, I received the following reply from Tim:

Pancake mixes could use anything from a soft wheat cake or pastry flour up to a hard wheat all-purpose flour, or a blend of these flours.  A lot depends upon the eating quality and texture desired. 
 
Attached is an old formula I had on hand using a cake flour.


The pancake formulation had the following baker's percents (I put the numbers in the same order as the Bisquick mix):

100%, Puresnow cake flour
10%, Melted butter
3.5%, Baking powder
10%, Sugar
1.7%, Salt

The formulation also includes milk and eggs, both of which contribute fat to the total recipe, but I left them out in my summary above so that the numbers would track with the formulation for the Bisquick Original mix. My tentative formulation for the Bisquick Original mix is different from the above but I believe that it is still credible when shortening (partially hydrogenated soy and/or cottonseed oil) is substituted for the butter in the proper quantity and sugar is replaced by dextrose. The 10% figure listed above for the sugar is higher than what I have seen in the pancake recipes I reviewed. It clearly does not fall in the proper place in the pecking order for the ingredients in the Bisquick Original mix.

An interesting sidenote is that the recipe that Tim gave me had an example based on using 32 ounces of flour. When I added up the weights of all of the ingredients in the formulation summarized above, I got a weight of 39.6 ounces. A standard box of the Bisquick Original mix is 40 ounces. In my formulation, I also ended up with 32 ounces of flour.

After settling on my formulation for the Bisquick Original mix, I tried to adapt it to the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix. My tentative formulation showed that there was less fat than what is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix--about 8% less. That discrepancy could be fixed by adding more shortening or, as an alternative, some oil, as you proposed to do (although I think you may be shy on the amount). I also concluded that you were perhaps shy on the amount of buttermilk powder, the dried egg and the soy flour. However, these ingredients are so far down the list in terms of baker's percent, any deficiency in these ingredients might not even be missed. As noted earlier, I suspected that the amount of baking powder was greater than normal, or at least greater than what I believe is used in the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix. Even then, "normal" is somewhat relative. In reviewing pancake recipes, I found a fairly wide range of use of baking powder. In fact, in one of the recipes that I saw on the back of a box of Bisquick Original mix it says to add more baking powder to get super fluffy pancakes.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2011, 08:11:33 PM
Norma,

As part of my research on the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I tried to find more information on dextrose. When I spoke with the lady at GM yesterday, I specifically asked her what role the dextrose played in their Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix. She mentioned the sweetness factor but not in relation to yeast fermentation. When I suggested that the dextrose, as a simple sugar, was immediately available for use by the yeast, whereas sucrose would take a long time to be broken down to simple sugars, she said that it was also her understanding that yeast can only use simple sugars as food. Today, I found the following from an article on dextrose:

Fermentability
Because it is a monosaccharide, dextrose is the ideal carbohydrate source for yeast fermentation in baking and brewing. The fermentation begins immediately and proceeds rapidly. Dextrose provides energy to the cell to produce many by-products in addition to carbodioxide and ethanol.


and  

Maillard reaction
The classic browning in food systems is due to the interaction of reducing sugars and acidified protein compounds. Due to its active aldehyde groups, dextrose is a powerful reducing sugar and promotes rapid buildup of browning.


and

Sweetness control
With its pleasant, clean and sweet, cooling taste, dextrose has been used for years as a sweetener in a wide range of food applications. Dextrose is one of the sweetest of the starch derived sugars. On a scale on which sucrose is assigned a sweetness value of 100, dextrose is rated at 75.


I think the above helps explain why you got such good fermentation activity and crust coloration with the Sukie pizza you made. Hopefully, there is enough dextrose in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to do the same for the pizza you will soon be making.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 08:55:59 PM
Peter,

You really did do a lot of research yesterday.  Good to hear you did figure out since Biqsuick is a part of General Mills they would be using a General Mills flour.  Interesting to hear how you did come up with a formula for the Bisquick Original mix.  Hopefully since there is less fat in the Bisquick Original mix, than the Bisquick buttermilk mix, the pizza will turn out okay. 

I don’t know where my mind is today, but after I balled and oiled the dough ball, I remembered I had my big peel at market for the Mack’s 18" pizza.  I thought now what!  I divided the dough into two pieces.  The one ball now weighs 407 grams and the other weighs 191 grams.  I kept the bigger dough ball and froze the smaller one.  I had even thought I had mozzarella in the freezer, but I didn’t, so I had to run to the store to get some.  Wouldn’t you know it, the lady sliced the mozzarella instead of giving me the ½ lb. I had asked for.  After all this, I walked to the liquor store and bought myself a bottle of wine.  I thought maybe that will clear my mind for making the pizza. 

Do you think in the end if the Bisquick Original works out, we should be able to use normal ingredients to make the same pizza, since you have done all this work?

The article you found on dextrose is really interesting.  I can now understand why the Sukie pizza probably got such good coloration and fermentation.  Did you ever read that much about dextrose before?

Hopefully this pizza will turn out as good as the Sukie one, but if it doesn’t that’s okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2011, 09:33:36 PM
Norma,

Do you think in the end if the Bisquick Original works out, we should be able to use normal ingredients to make the same pizza, since you have done all this work?

If your results are good again, then I think it should be possible to come up with a formulation that is based on using the Bisquick Original mix along with a "goody bag". To correctly reverse engineer both the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix is a tall order. Then you have to hope that the "goody bag" works properly with the final reverse engineered formulation or at least doesn't hurt anything. I still believe that there is a fair amount of latitude on the values of baker's percents of the ingredients so long as they are not off the wall and are in the right pecking order. Your next pizza will hopefully provide the answer, provided that your home oven can deliver the same or similar results to those you get at market with your deck oven. BTW, for your 407 gram dough ball, you can make a pizza that is around 13.5" and it should have the same characteristics as the 16" pizza.

Quote
The article you found on dextrose is really interesting.  I can now understand why the Sukie pizza probably got such good coloration and fermentation.  Did you ever read that much about dextrose before?

I hadn't done much before with dextrose. I knew that it was in a lot of commercial recipes but assumed that maybe it was used because it was cheaper for commercial applications than using sucrose, much as corn syrup has been used for similar reasons. What triggered my interest more strongly was its relationship to yeast fermentation. That prompted me to look more deeply into that ingredient. Had the Bisquick mixes not used dextrose, I don't think I would have delved into the matter, at least not at this time. But I am glad I did. As you may know, you can purchase dextrose. I believe that Barry Farms carries it.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 10:11:16 PM
The next Sukie pizza was made.  This pizza was good, but not as good as the one with the Bisquick Buttermilk Bisucit mix and Peter’s “goody bag”.  The taste of this Sukie crust almost tastes like a normal pizza crust, that is fermented for a day or a little more. I placed flour on the table, floured the top of the dough ball and then after putting the dough ball flour side down, floured the bottom a little, before opening the skin. The skin was really easy to open, but I still didn’t get it all even when opening it. This skin was opened to about 13" or a little more. There were fermentation bubbles in the skin. This pizza did have oven spring and did also brown. The rim was also moist, but not as moist as the pizza baked in my deck oven.  I baked this pizza in my home oven at my normal baking temperature at about 500 degrees F.  The pizza baked in 7 minutes.  I place the pizza on the pizza stone on the bottom rack of the oven.  This Sukie pizza moved away from a Biquick taste. 

I planned on mixing this dough and fermenting it for the same length of time that I did at market.  The dough was again left to ferment at room temperature for 2 hrs. before balling.  It was then balled, and left to ferment for 2 more hrs.  The ambient room temperature this time was 71 degrees F.  I think this dough could have fermented longer, but I wanted to let the dough ferment for about the same length of time to see what would happen. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 10:13:55 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 10:14:49 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2011, 10:22:28 PM

I hadn't done much before with dextrose. I knew that it was in a lot of commercial recipes but assumed that maybe it was used because it was cheaper for commercial applications than using sucrose, much as corn syrup has been used for similar reasons. What triggered my interest more strongly was its relationship to yeast fermentation. That prompted me to look more deeply into that ingredient. Had the Bisquick mixes not used dextrose, I don't think I would have delved into the matter, at least not at this time. But I am glad I did. As you may know, you can purchase dextrose. I believe that Barry Farms carries it.

Peter


Peter,

I think it would be interesting to experiment with dextrose to see how it works.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2011, 12:22:33 PM
Norma,

I think your best bet at this point would be to try a 16" pizza at market, using the same formulation you used for your last pizza. The benefit of such a test would be to see if the type of oven is a material factor in the results you get. That would be my first preference--to rule the formulation in or out. However, if you do not feel that such a test would be worthwhile, I think I should be able to come up with a formulation (including a different "goody bag") for you to try out based on my analysis of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. If my analysis is correct, there may be some limitations that can affect the final results because I cannot remove anything from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, like some of the leavening or salt, to lower any baker's percents that may be too high. I can only add things, not subtract them. I won't know what the actual situation is until I work on the numbers. I think the ultimate ideal solution would be to make your own "Bisquick mix" (a clone) and add all of the right other ingredients to it, and in the right amounts to make a pizza dough. Then we can take that formulation to General Mills and ask for big bucks. Or start making your own pounches of the mix and sell them at market and keep the formulation a trade secret.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2011, 04:14:53 PM
Norma,

I think your best bet at this point would be to try a 16" pizza at market, using the same formulation you used for your last pizza. The benefit of such a test would be to see if the type of oven is a material factor in the results you get. That would be my first preference--to rule the formulation in or out. However, if you do not feel that such a test would be worthwhile, I think I should be able to come up with a formulation (including a different "goody bag") for you to try out based on my analysis of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. If my analysis is correct, there may be some limitations that can affect the final results because I cannot remove anything from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, like some of the leavening or salt, to lower any baker's percents that may be too high. I can only add things, not subtract them. I won't know what the actual situation is until I work on the numbers. I think the ultimate ideal solution would be to make your own "Bisquick mix" (a clone) and add all of the right other ingredients to it, and in the right amounts to make a pizza dough. Then we can take that formulation to General Mills and ask for big bucks. Or start making your own pounches of the mix and sell them at market and keep the formulation a trade secret.

Peter

Peter,

The pizza I made last evening was good, but somehow the flavor profile changed.  The crust still browned, was about the same texture, had about the same crispness on the bottom and on the rim, but didn’t taste like the Sukie pizza that was made at market.  What do you think contributed to the flavor profile change. Do you think it could have been the extra ingredients I added and not in the right amounts?  In my opinion I don’t think it was my home oven that made the difference, but could be wrong.  When I bake a preferment Lehmann dough at market or home the flavor profile doesn’t change.  The pizza is only a little bit drier from the longer bake time at home, but that is about the only change I can notice.  I looked this morning on the web to see if the eggs white solids compared to the egg solids I should have used, could have change anything.  From what I read, it would make some difference in the taste and texture, unless lecithin is added.  If you want me to link you to that article, I can.  

I will leave it up to you what to try next.  I would be interested in seeing a different “goody bag” from your analysis of the Bisquick pancake and baking mix, if it isn't too much work.  

Lol, it would be something if our formula turns out better than the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  It already did, even with the last experiment.  I think General Mills would be glad to be able to sell a better pizza mix.  If our formulas ever work out, they never would be trade secrets, because everyone can already read here on the forum what we are doing.  

These are pictures of slices from the pizza I made last evening.  I took them outside, so the color and how they really look are better.  They weren’t reheated, and I took them to my mother, but I did taste the cold crust, and it was still good.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2011, 06:09:46 PM
Norma,

As you know, I don't like to change more than one variable at a time. I know it was unavoidable in your case, but you changed several variables--the dough formulation you used, the pizza size, and the oven. That makes it difficult to know what really happened or how to change things based on your results. I could perhaps decipher some of the causes of the change in crust flavor but to conduct such an analysis properly would entail a lot of number crunching to see what your formulation was in terms of baker's percents and related weights. I would rather spend the time coming up with a new formulation that is suggested by the work I did to try to decipher the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.

The above said, I thought initially that perhaps you were low on the fat content and that affected the crust flavor. But adding more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil (if you can even find it without other additives) would be rather unlikely to have a major impact on flavor because such fats as produced commercially tend not to add much flavor to the finished product and are intended to be on the bland side, much like sanitizing/deodorizing lard. They are more likely to have a textural, tenderizing effect. The failure to use a dry egg powder rather than dry egg whites shouldn't have had a pronounced effect on crust taste for the small amount you used. FYI, when I was reading the nutrition information on the packages of pancake mixes recently, I did see dry egg whites listed as an ingredient, but way down in the list of ingredients. If you used too much baking powder, possibly that could have had an effect on overall crust flavor.

I will leave to you whether you should repeat the last experiment but using your deck oven. I would rather spend the time on a new formulation. And it may well turn out that that formulation is not the answer either. What we are trying to do is to reverse engineer two commercial mixes, the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix, mash them together in some logical way, and then make other changes through the "goody bag" to come up with a pizza dough. Unfortunately, none of these exercises is ever easy or quick. 

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2011, 08:39:58 PM
Peter,

I know you don’t like to change more than one variable at a time.  I know I also did change more than one variable in my last experiment. I just would like whatever formulas we use to be able to baked in a deck oven or home oven and to be able to come up with about the same results.  At this time, I don’t know if that is out of the question or not. 

It is interesting if I used too much baking powder that could have an effect on the overall crust flavor.  I just thought it would make the dough ferment faster.  I didn’t notice any taste of baking powder in the finished crust, but maybe the amount of baking powder I used did change the crust flavor. 

If you have time to work on a new formulation that would be good.  I know what you are trying to do is reverse engineer two baking mixes (Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix and Buttermilk Bisquick mix) and trying to find a “goody bag” that would work.  I can understand that is asking for very much.

Did you happen to find any of the Buttermilk Bisquick mix pouches at store near you? 

Best of luck!

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2011, 08:47:03 PM
Norma,

The two stores near me that I mentioned earlier did not have the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit pouches. Maybe Kroger will have them. In the meantime, I am using the information from the General Mills website.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2011, 12:31:43 PM
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below the formulation that is intended to be a mash-up of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Bisquick biscuit mix, as further modified through the use of a "goody bag" to produce what hopefully will be a functional pizza dough.

Here are the steps to follow:

Add 212 grams/7.48 ounces of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to a bowl
Add 160.5 grams/5.66 ounces of King Arthur bread flour (KABF)
Add 1.11 grams/0.04 ounces of the Clabber Girl baking powder; this comes to a bit over 1/4 t.
Add 0.80 grams/0.028 ounces salt; this comes to 1/8 t.; you will have to adjust if you decide to use a Kosher salt
Add 8.67 grams/0.31 ounces dried buttermilk powder; this comes to 1 1/2 t.
Add 2.41 grams/0.09 ounces dried whole egg; this comes to 1 1/2 t.
Add 0.85 grams/0.03 ounces soy flour; this comes to a bit less than 1/2 t.
Add 2.26 grams/0.08 ounces of IDY; this comes to 3/4 t.
Using a pastry cutter or its equivalent, cut 12.84 grams/0.45 ounces of partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil into the dry ingredients (but see instructions/notes below)
Total weight of "goody bag" contents = 401.04 grams/14.16 ounces

There are two components of the water:

Water 1: 94.18 grams/3.32 ounces (this is in relation to the presumed cake flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix; hydration = 55%)
Water 2: 99.49 grams/3.51 ounces (this is in relation to the KABF; hydration = 62%)
Total weight of water: 193.67 grams/6.83 ounces

Grand total weight of the "goody bag" and the water = 594.71 grams/20.98 ounces (for one 16" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.104)

As noted above, one of the new ingredients for the "goody bag" is the partially hydrogenated soybean and cottonseed oil. As previously mentioned, you are not going to find such a product in the supermarkets on a standalone basis. In fact, the entire fat scene in supermarkets has changed dramatically over the past several years, with a concerted effort to reduce or eliminate hydrogenated fats, and particularly the dreaded trans fats that are a byproduct of hydrogenation of oils. The "old" Crisco would have been a good choice for our purposes but the "new and improved" Crisco has been dramatically changed (with different oils and combination of full and partial hydrogenation) and no longer meets the fat profile (total fat/sat fat) for our application. Butter and lard could be used in a pinch but they do not meet the desired fat profile either (too much saturated fats).

The closest match that I could find is a basic, solid, stick (not soft or tub or liquid or butter/margarine blends) supermarket margarine. Of the brands that I checked out for our application, the Imperial (original) brand of margarine seems to offer the best match. Unfortunately, margarines these days, including the Imperial brand, include many other ingredients, such as whey, some liquid oils, colors, flavors, and preservatives and the like. They also include water and salt. These ingredients may not materially affect the outcome of our project but that is something we will not know until the results are in, and maybe not  even then. For the Imperial margarine, I suggest using 14.98 grams/0.53 ounces. That comes to 1/2 T. (or the mid-point of the tablespoon markings on the paper wrapper). That value also compensates for the fact that margarine contains around 17% water. For the amounts used, that is not likely to be a problem with final hydration. As you discovered before, you had to add more water than I calculated. I suspect the same may occur with the above formulation.

Happy Mother's Day.

Peter




Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2011, 02:33:28 PM
Peter,

Thanks so much for spending so much time trying to get this all figured out how to change the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Buttermilk Biquick Biscuit mix as modified though the use of a “goody bag” to produce what might be a functional pizza dough.  How long did that take you to get that all figured out?  Just thinking about how many calculations you must have gone though has my mind in a tizzy. 

I don’t know where to purchase the dried whole eggs.  Do you know where I could purchase them?  I still only have the dried egg white solids.

I do have Imperial margarine at market and use that in my herb blend (with added olive oil) for some of my bread sticks and garlic knots, so that isn’t any problem.  When I made the Bisquick Buttermilk pizza at market last week with the “goody bag”, maybe the maragine will help make the dough like last weeks.  I did note in my one reply that there seemed to be some kind of fat in the dough even though it was mixed. 

Yes, I did discover before I needed to add some more water to both mixes, to make the dough feel like the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  I will note what amount of water I need to add, if any.  I hope you get to try out your own “goody bag” in combination with the Bisquick pancake and baking mix at some point in time.

I also want to thank you for wishing me a Happy Mother’s Day.  This is really a nice Mother’s Day present, of setting forth a formula for me to try with the Bisquick pancake and baking mix.  My Mother had liked to go to the casino years ago with my Father.  She only played the slots (and not for much money) and I did go to Atlantic City Casinos and Hollywood Casino (near Hershey) with her different times, just because she does like Casinos.  For me, I don’t like casinos, but my oldest daughter and I decided to take my mother to Hollywood Casino later today, just so she would have a good time.  I know I will only be playing the penny slots, because I know I am not lucky and also don’t like to throw away money.  The last time I went to the casino with my Mother, at Hollywood was two years ago.  I also have the one small kitten that will only be 6 weeks old this week.  She still needs to be feed every 4 hrs., so I still am a relatively new mother to her.

Thanks again, you sure were quick in coming up with a “goody bag” and setting forth a new formula.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2011, 03:53:27 PM
Norma,

I burned the midnight oil on this project yesterday to get it completed on time. I don't like incomplete jobs or doing them piecemeal because I find that I spend too much time getting back up to speed when I get back into the jobs. What you see in my last post is the final results, presented in a compact, organized manner in about a couple easy to read and execute paragraphs. What you don't see is the ten pages of notes that I have on the project and the hundreds of data entries and calculations. For some reason, so many of your projects have so many different twists and turns that, except for an occasional use of a dough calcultaing tool and bastardizations thereof, just about everything has to be done by hand using pencil and paper and desk calculators. The killer is working with so many small-valued numbers out to several decimal places and doing conversions and just about living on the SelfNutritionData website hunting down information. This all tells me that I should scale back my participation in projects like this. They are just too tedious and time consuming. Sometimes I don't learn that until I am well into the project and I often underestimate the scope of the job. But I am not the type to bail. I try to finish all of my jobs.

With respect to the dried egg powder, I do not have any on hand. However, I know that Barry Farms sells it, at http://www.barryfarm.com/milk.htm. Rather than spend a lot of money just to be able to use a trivial amount in relation to the size of the bag of the dried egg powder, I suggest that you use part of a fresh egg. I would go with a fifth of an egg. Since a single large, fresh, raw egg weighs about 50 grams, that would be 10 grams. That will add about another two grams of water to your dough but I know that you will be able to get the final hydration where it should be.

Good luck. I look forward to your results.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2011, 09:32:21 PM
Peter,

I can understand how long this project took you to figure out all the information and do all the calculations, since you have told me.  Wow, ten pages of notes and hundreds of data entries and calculations are even more than I would have imagined.  I only started this thread with trying to see how a Betty Crocker pizza mix would turn out in a short while.  I never thought this thread would balloon into such a project for you.  I thought the test on the Betty Crocker pizza mix was a one once and done test.  I never thought this thread would turn into a reverse-engineering project for two General Mills products and then also having to have “goody bags”.  I am sorry I gave you so much work.  I know my wondering and being curious about different things can lead to trouble.

I won’t ask you in the future to even try anything like this project. I can understand a project like this is too tedious and time consuming for you. With me being so poor in math, I can’t even help with that.  

Thanks again for all your hard work and I won’t be asking for this kind of help in the future.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2011, 11:08:19 PM
This is what leftover pancakes look like that were grilled with the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, this morning. They sure don’t look anything like pizza either, the same way the shortcake sure didn’t look like pizza from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2011, 09:56:51 AM
The two containers, (one of the “goody bag” and Bisquick Bisquick cheese-garlic bisucit mix and the other of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, with the “goody bag” added) and instructions from Peter, are ready to go to market tomorrow.

Picture below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2011, 10:29:33 AM
Norma,

I can understand how long this project took you to figure out all the information and do all the calculations, since you have told me.  Wow, ten pages of notes and hundreds of data entries and calculations are even more than I would have imagined.  I only started this thread with trying to see how a Betty Crocker pizza mix would turn out in a short while.  I never thought this thread would balloon into such a project for you.  I thought the test on the Betty Crocker pizza mix was a one once and done test.  I never thought this thread would turn into a reverse-engineering project for two General Mills products and then also having to have “goody bags”.  I am sorry I gave you so much work.  I know my wondering and being curious about different things can lead to trouble.

I won’t ask you in the future to even try anything like this project. I can understand a project like this is too tedious and time consuming for you. With me being so poor in math, I can’t even help with that.  

Thanks again for all your hard work and I won’t be asking for this kind of help in the future.

There was no harm done, so there is no need to apologize. I don't think that there would have been any way that you could have predicted the scope and complexity of the task and how long it would take to complete. I knew we were getting in much deeper (as I noted to you) when you decided that you wanted to use the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix as the starting point for a Sukie pizza instead of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix, but I thought that the task was still manageable, as it was up to that point. As it turned out, I underestimated what had to be done and how long it would take to do it. But, now it is over, and I eagerly await the results you achieve when you get around to trying the new formulation. That will be the best test to see if I did the reverse engineering correctly and also handled the math adequately.

For future reference, I think that it is safe to say that if you want to do something different or unusual that is out of the general realm of what we do on the forum, or if the tools available on the forum cannot be used, or used easily, then whomever decides to help you with the math or technical aspects of what you would like to do is most likely going to have to spend a fair amount of time and effort on the task at hand. It's unfortunate that you struggle with math, since that limits what you can do and makes you overly dependent on others, but that is the reality of the matter. You should still reach out to others on the forum for help but consider that they can only do so much. There really aren't that many members on the forum who can do the sorts of things that your projects require.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2011, 11:36:13 AM
Peter,

I know I am overdependent on others to help with my projects and from now on, I will just experiment on what I know how to do.  I also know since my math skills are severely lacking, that puts me way behind other members.  I know I have depended on you for far too many projects and now that I think about it, that was a bad decision on my part.  I know you also have moderators duties and also always help other members. Since the forum is growing so rapidly, I know you have much to do.  I am just glad to be a part of this forum.

I just thought we were going to “wing it”, when I posted about using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.  I never thought you would try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  I would have been satisfied with just trying my proposed formula, and if it didn’t work out that was fine.  Even having the “Sukie” pizza turn out so great with using the “goodie bag”, was quite an accomplishment on your part.  I appreciate you helped me to be able to accomplish that. 

I already know other members can’t reverse engineer products or pizza like you can.  You have studied how to do that many times and I have seen it has taken you many years to learn how to do that. 

I appreciate all the help you have given me in the past and present.  I promised I won’t ever ask for your help again in another project.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:00:34 PM
The Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix dough and Peters’ “goody bag” were mixed late this morning.  I shouldn’t have assumed since I had to add water to the Bisquick Buttermilk mix and “goody bag” that the amount of water would not be enough.  I added the whole amount of water stated for “total weight of water”.  That was a mistake on my part. I did use hot water today.  When I mixed the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with the “goody bag” and water, the dough seems really sticky.  I thought wow, I sure made a mistake in using that much water.  I did use my plastic dough scraper and kept turning the dough onto itself, kinda like stretch and folds.  I dough was still sticky, so I decided to just let it ferment.  I did let it ferment for two hours.  Then I added a little bench flour and did more stretch and folds.  The dough seemed to become more like a Tartine Bread dough then.  It was bubbly, but still kinda sticky.  I then did ball the dough and covered it with flour and also put olive oil on the bottom of the plastic container.   The dough was then fermented for two more hours.

When I went to open the dough ball, it still a little sticky, but I proceeded.  The dough opened very easily.  When Steve and I dressed the pie, it wanted to stick to the peel.  We tried to add more rice flour under the dough and even blew under the skin a few times, but there were still places it wanted to stick.  When Steve slid the pie into the oven, we knew it was sticking in one spot, but still proceeded.  As can be seen the pizza did not get altogether round.  The crumb of this pizza was very light and very moist in the rim.  When taking bites of the rim, it was almost like a cloud.  The taste of the crust was very good.  Steve and I thought this was a very good short time pizza.  There was no Bisquick taste in the crust of this pizza.

The second Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit pizza, I will explain later, but the “goody bag” did work with the Biquick cheese-garlic mix and I did add more water to that mix.  That pizza turned out about the same as the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix last week, but I think the taste of the cheese-garlic crust was better than the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix with the “goody bag”, I had tried last week.  

Pictures of the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” added pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:04:18 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:06:47 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:09:41 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:50:42 PM
The Biquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix was mixed with the same “goody bag” as I also mixed the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix with last week.  I did add .50 oz. more water to this dough.  As can been seen on the pictures of the dough there is an almost orange substance in the mix, even after it was mixed into dough and also in the baked rim.  Steve and I tasted the almost orange substance and it almost tasted like a waxy nothing.  It had no flavor.  This dough was also bulk fermented for 2 hrs., then balled with flour and put into a plastic container with oil and room temperature fermented for another 2 hrs.

This dough mix came together well, and the dough ball was easy to open.  I find how the bottom of this crust browned interesting.  This Sukie pizza did turn out well, and only had a hint of a Bisquick taste.  It didn’t taste like fluffy pancakes like last week.  Steve and I couldn’t taste any cheese in the crust and only a hint of garlic.  At least in my opinion and Steve’s, this was another successful Sukie pizza.

The rim of this pizza was also moist.  In my opinion, it is interesting that a pizza can be made with a biscuit mix. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:54:25 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:56:59 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 10:59:33 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2011, 11:00:52 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2011, 10:07:50 AM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. You certainly got some interesting results, especially the bottom of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust.

I am at a loss, however, to explain how you got such a sticky dough using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the new "goody bag". I plan to revisit what I posted in Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138285.html#msg138285 (and as slightly modified in Reply 130), and my notes as well, to see if I can detect anything there that might help explain why your dough was so sticky. For now, I can tell you that my formulation presumed a blend of 12 ounces of flour (about half cake flour and half bread flour). On that basis, using the specified amount of water, the hydration would have been just under 57%. I don't know how much water would have been added by one fifth of a fresh egg and a bit less than one-half tablespoon of Imperial margarine, but I wouldn't have expected that it would be enough to throw the recipe out of kilter. The only other explanation that I can think of is that maybe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix has considerably more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil that I estimated, and that the added fat made the dough stickier. Or maybe there is something in a fresh egg that was responsible. Based on your extensive experience working with doughs of different hydrations, can you estimate what you thought the hydration was when you were done mixing everything together?

I can't say that I was surprised by the low flavor impact of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust. I suspect that there is a limit as to how much of those flavors can be built into an inexpensive mix.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 10:43:09 AM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. You certainly got some interesting results, especially the bottom of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust.

I am at a loss, however, to explain how you got such a sticky dough using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the new "goody bag". I plan to revisit what I posted in Reply 128 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138285.html#msg138285 (and as slightly modified in Reply 130), and my notes as well, to see if I can detect anything there that might help explain why your dough was so sticky. For now, I can tell you that my formulation presumed a blend of 12 ounces of flour (about half cake flour and half bread flour). On that basis, using the specified amount of water, the hydration would have been just under 57%. I don't know how much water would have been added by one fifth of a fresh egg and a bit less than one-half tablespoon of Imperial margarine, but I wouldn't have expected that it would be enough to throw the recipe out of kilter. The only other explanation that I can think of is that maybe the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix has considerably more partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil that I estimated, and that the added fat made the dough stickier. Or maybe there is something in a fresh egg that was responsible. Based on your extensive experience working with doughs of different hydrations, can you estimate what you thought the hydration was when you were done mixing everything together?

I can't say that I was surprised by the low flavor impact of the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic crust. I suspect that there is a limit as to how much of those flavors can be built into an inexpensive mix.

Peter

Peter,

I am also at a loss to explain I how I got that sticky dough, when using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix and the “goody bag”.  I sure don’t think I measured out the water incorrectly, but that is always a possibility.  I did use my scales at market to measure out the water.  I won’t know until I do another test on this dough next week, what might have gone wrong.  The pizza ended up tasting very good though.  From my prior experiences in handling different types of dough this dough felt like about 82% hydration.  I knew when I first mixed it, it shouldn’t have felt like that.  I then thought what went wrong.  ??? At least we know the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, plus the “goody bag”, can be made into a high hydration pizza, with some stretch and folds and a little bit of bench flour. The crumb on this pizza was so light, it almost melted in our mouths.

At least we also now know that your other “goody bag” did work with the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix, with no need to change anything, except add a little water.  I was surprised that the taste of that crust changed more away from the fluffy pancake taste of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix, with the “goody bag” added.  I, my taste testers, and Steve would eat any of these pizzas made with your added “goody bags”.  They were all so much better than the first pizza I made from the Betty Crocker pizza mix, on the first post on this thread.  You have done a fantastic job with your “goody bags”.  Congrats!  :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2011, 11:12:44 AM
Norma,

Thank you very much for the nice words. However, I won't rest easy until the hydration issue is resolved. But it is good to know that an extremely high hydration Bisquick/"goody bag" dough behaves just about like any other dough with very high hydration, in terms of the lightness and softness of the finished crust. Once the hydration issue is resolved, I may try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the "goody bag". That is where the trade secrets will reside and require that someone do a fair amount of work to arrive at the same place, even with what I have already posted on the matter. I'm sure that General Mills would know how to reformulate everything so as to optimize the formulation for consumer use. I suspect, however, that GM might not be interested in a 4-hour dough. Consumers want "instant" doughs.

I went back and revisited the ingredients list for the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. There are about 25
ingredients, including many more "sub" ingredients, but the amount of fat on a serving basis seems to be even higher than the other Bisquick mixes we have been analyzing. So it is hard to say what effect the presumed higher fat levels would have on the consistency of the dough once the water and "goody bag" are added.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2011, 12:00:24 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for the nice words. However, I won't rest easy until the hydration issue is resolved. But it is good to know that an extremely high hydration Bisquick/"goody bag" dough behaves just about like any other dough with very high hydration, in terms of the lightness and softness of the finished crust. Once the hydration issue is resolved, I may try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the "goody bag". That is where the trade secrets will reside and require that someone do a fair amount of work to arrive at the same place, even with what I have already posted on the matter. I'm sure that General Mills would know how to reformulate everything so as to optimize the formulation for consumer use. I suspect, however, that GM might not be interested in a 4-hour dough. Consumers want "instant" doughs.

I went back and revisited the ingredients list for the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix. There are about 25 ingredients, including many more "sub" ingredients, but the amount of fat on a serving basis seems to be even higher than the other Bisquick mixes we have been analyzing. So it is hard to say what effect the presumed higher fat levels would have on the consistency of the dough the water and "goody bag" are added.

Peter

Peter,

As I posted in my last post, I am not sure if I exactly used the right amount of water with Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix with the “goody bag”.  I might be curious enough to try another experiment on that, if I find the time over the weekend.  It now really has me bugged if I did use the right amount of water.  :-D I had your concise instructions along at market, but I don’t even remember if I had been distracted while weighing the water.  I don’t think I was, but there are so many things that keep going on at market, that I could have made a mistake in weighing the water.

It is interesting to hear, that once the hydration issues are resolved that then you might try to come up with a single formulation that incorporates the “goody bag”.  If you decide on doing that work, you might want to contact General Mills.  8)  From the results I had so far, I would think they would be interested in your formulations.  I would think you could get a fair amount of money from them, if they are interested in making a better pizza mix.  I know everyone is always interested in “instant everything”, but if regular homemakers could make a great pizza in a few hours, that would be great! 

I wonder what that fatty (waxy) substance was in the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic buscuit mix.  That stuff didn’t even melt with hot water added.  It could be seen in the pictures I posted on the dough, skin, and crumb of the pizza.  It interested me and Steve, that it was tasteless.  That was weird.  Your "goody bag" did perform well with the Biquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix.  It was another Sukie pizza.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 13, 2011, 12:09:09 PM
Norma,

This morning, I read a December 1, 2010 review by Cook's Country (a Cook's Illustrated publication) in which eight different pancake mixes were tested, including our beloved Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. According to the article, pancake mixes are a $250 million dollar a year business in the U.S. So it looks like pancake mixes are a fairly sizable business, especially when one considers that it is so easy to make one's own mix.

The Bisquick mix finished sixth in the ratings. The top pancake mix (Hungry Jack Buttermilk Pancake and Waffle Mix) has a little fat (less than 2% partially hydrogenated soybean oil), but a lot of sugar (and also rice flour), and requires that users add milk, oil, and egg. The next favored pancake mix (Aunt Jemima Original Pancake and Waffle Mix) has no oil, but a lot of sugar and salt, and also requires that the user add milk, oil and egg. The Bisquick mix, which only requires that users add milk and egg, was "Recommended with Reservations", with the following review:

These “exceptionally bland” pancakes scored no better than average across the board. Tasters couldn’t muster any strong feelings about either flavor or texture, with one commenting, “It could be a lot worse.”

Maybe you can make a Sukie pizza using the "bland" Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and have the CI testers critique it :chef:

Peter

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2011, 01:26:12 PM
Norma,

This morning, I read a December 1, 2010 review by Cook's Country (a Cook's Illustrated publication) in which eight different pancake mixes were tested, including our beloved Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. According to the article, pancake mixes are a $250 million dollar a year business in the U.S. So it looks like pancake mixes are a fairly sizable business, especially when one considers that it is so easy to make one's own mix.

The Bisquick mix finished sixth in the ratings. The top pancake mix (Hungry Jack Buttermilk Pancake and Waffle Mix) has a little fat (less than 2% partially hydrogenated soybean oil), but a lot of sugar (and also rice flour), and requires that users add milk, oil, and egg. The next favored pancake mix (Aunt Jemima Original Pancake and Waffle Mix) has no oil, but a lot of sugar and salt, and also requires that the user add milk, oil and egg. The Bisquick mix, which only requires that users add milk and egg, was "Recommended with Reservations", with the following review:

These “exceptionally bland” pancakes scored no better than average across the board. Tasters couldn’t muster any strong feelings about either flavor or texture, with one commenting, “It could be a lot worse.”

Maybe you can make a Sukie pizza using the "bland" Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and have the CI testers critique it :chef:

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for posting about the review you read by Cook’s Country about the different pancakes mixes that were tested, including our beloved Biquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  The pancake business sure is a big business.  I know it is fairly easy to make a pancake mix on my own, but for some reason I really like to use the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix to make pancakes.  Maybe it is because my mother had used it for years (because she worked full-time and my mother and father built their own home form bottom to top. It took them 4 years while working full-time for both of them to build their home and a 5 car garage, which I grew up in.)  My mother always made fresh home cooked meals, but I guessed skimped on the pancakes and strawberry shortcakes she made, by using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  I have tried other pancake mixes and also have tried to use my own mixes, but I keep going back to the Bisquick Original Pancake and baking mix.  Maybe is something like the first good pizza you eat, you will always will remember.  Theses pancakes from the batter of Bisquick with only the addition of milk and eggs, do really brown great, are easy to make, and no oil is needed when grilling them.  Maybe I am lazy, but keep going back to these pancakes, for some reason.  ::)

Lol, making a Sukie pizza and having CI critique it sure would be funny.  :-D I would guess they wouldn’t believe what can be made out of the Bisquick mix, since you have come up with a “goody bag”.  ;D You are really the chef, because you are the one that came up with the formula.  :chef:

I plan on making another Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix pizza with your “goody bag” tomorrow.  Then I will see if I used the wrong amount of water and also see how your formulation turns out. I even went to market yesterday, to get my big pizza peel, so I will be able to make a 16" pizza. I didn’t want to forget it today, and I also was in the area to pick up some other stuff.  I wanted to make the Sukie pizza yesterday or today, but I had outside work to do and this afternoon, I must go to market and try to find the Goya manteca.  I am anxious to try out your formula with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix!  You might be a star of Betty Crocker some day!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 11:52:53 AM
I mixed another Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” and now can understand what I might have done wrong, when I mixed the mix before.  I did now weigh out all the ingredients and after I weighed them also took the final weight of all the ingredients combined, before I added the total weight of water. The total weight of the “goody bag” contents was 401 grams. I now think I didn’t measure the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix right before.  This time it looked like more of the Bisquick Original Pancake mix was in the container.  I think that is where I went wrong before. When I weighed the water, it looked about the same as it did at market.  

I used hot tap water today, but I don’t think my home tap water is as hot as it is at market.  My final dough temperature was 84.5 degrees F.  The total weight of the mix and water was 589 grams.  I think some dough stuck to my fingers and also the rubber spatula and rubber scraper I used to mix the dough.  

Now the dough does look almost like when I had used the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix or the Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix. The Sukie dough doesn’t look sticky like it did at market.

BTW, I did purchase another bag of the Bisquick Buttermilk mix to try at market sometime again with the “goody bag” Peter had set-forth.

I am not sure how long I am going to let this dough ferment, before reballing, because my ambient room temperature at home is 70 degrees F.  That is lower than my market temperatures have been so far.  I do want to use this dough in the same time frame as before, but am not sure about the way to go about this, to get the best results.

Pictures of the combined mix and final dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 12:21:09 PM
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you apparently have resolved the hydration issue.

Can you tell me what the yellowish stuff is? Maybe the dried buttermilk, soy flour and/or dried egg powder? Or maybe some cheese powder?

FYI, your 589 grams total dough ball weight now translates to a thickness factor of [(589/28.35]/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1033. I know that you like your skins to be on the thicker side, even for your NY style doughs, so I had originally arranged the amounts so that you would be using a thickness factor of around 0.105.

As for the fermentation protocol, I think you should use your best judgment as to how long the dough ball should ferment and then be used. Even the best of commercial formulations are at the mercy of variations in temperature, both water temperature and ambient temperature. I'm sure that the results of users of such products vary as a consequence.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 01:37:10 PM
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you apparently have resolved the hydration issue.

Can you tell me what the yellowish stuff is? Maybe the dried buttermilk, soy flour and/or dried egg powder? Or maybe some cheese powder?

FYI, your 589 grams total dough ball weight now translates to a thickness factor of [(589/28.35]/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.1033. I know that you like your skins to be on the thicker side, even for your NY style doughs, so I had originally arranged the amounts so that you would be using a thickness factor of around 0.105.

As for the fermentation protocol, I think you should use your best judgment as to how long the dough ball should ferment and then be used. Even the best of commercial formulations are at the mercy of variations in temperature, both water temperature and ambient temperature. I'm sure that the results of users of such products vary as a consequence.

Peter

Peter,

At least I think I figured out what went wrong with the hydration issue.  I didn’t see any yellowish stuff as can be seen on the picture.  I did mix the mix throughly before I cut the Imperial margarine in. I did use the amount of real egg you had posted before.  I know my lighting at home isn’t as good as it is at market.  It is drizzling here today too, so there isn’t the best of lighting for pictures.  I can take other pictures if you want me to. 

Thanks for arranging the formula for a little higher TF when you figured it out.  I do like a little thicker NY style pizza.  Thanks for remembering I do like a little thicker crusts for a NY style pizza or a Sukie pizza if this turns out okay.

The Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, with your “goody bag”, looks like it is fermenting well.  I think I soon am going to ball it and then decide from there how long to let the dough ball ferment.  I really would like to have it ready in 4 hrs. like I did before.  Now, just so I don’t have some kind of issue with sliding the pizza off the peel onto my stone.  It is a lot easier at market to slide the pie unto the stone. 

I would have tried this pizza at market Tuesday, and  might still do that, but it was bugging me what I might have done wrong that the dough turned out so sticky.  I knew it wouldn’t be the formula you set-forth.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 01:59:53 PM
I can take other pictures if you want me to. 

Norma,

No, there is no need to take more photos. I thought that perhaps you decided to make a cheese-garlic version or something like that. I also recalled after I posted that you were perhaps using raw egg and the Imperial margarine, which has beta carotene in it, which I believe is used to give the margarine some color.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 02:03:29 PM
These are the pictures of the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag” added. of the dough after it fermented top and bottom, and after the dough ball was formed and brushed with olive oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
The Bisquick Pancake and Baking Mix pizza with the “goody bag” added, was made a little less than 4 ½ hrs. after it was mixed.  I wasn’t sure how long to let the dough ball ferment after I had balled it.  The dough ball was easy to open, but almost too easy, because it stretched to more than 16" in a very short time. When I measured the skin on the peel, I thought now there is going to be problems, because it skin was more than 16" and my pizza stone is only 16".  I don’t have a pizza screen bigger than 16".  There was no snap back in the skin.  Where ever I placed the skin it stayed the same size or wanted to get bigger. I still proceeded to dress the pie.  It was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, a blend of 4 cheeses, (John Martin’s mozzarella, Provolone,  Boar’s Head (Queso Blanco), and Buffalo Wing Cheddar cheese. Dietz and Watson Pepperoni was also placed on as a dressing, also.  I knew when I went to slide the pie off the peel (18"), the pie wasn’t going to fit my pizza stone and as can be seen it did droop on two sides.  

My oven light must have burned out between the last time I baked in the oven and today, but since the oven was too hot, I couldn’t change the oven light.  This pie baked differently than all the other pies on this thread.  It didn’t get a lot of oven spring.  

After the pie was baked, the crust and rim seemed bready, but in a different way than I would think of a bready rim.  It was still light and easy to chew, but different.  The bottom crust looked finished to me, but it also was soft and not crisp, as was the rim also.

Pictures below..Sorry, I changed the settings on my camera to take these pictures and the pictures looked fine when I looked at them on the back of the camera, but when I uploaded them, now they look darker.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 05:18:51 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 05:21:02 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 07:55:46 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your latest results. From your description, clearly what you got was not the Sukie pizza that you hoped it would be. It is hard to explain why that was the case. Perhaps the jump from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix and finally to the Sukie dough via the "goody bag" was too much. Or my attempts at reverse engineering the two mixes did not succeed, or sufficiently so, even though all the numbers seemed to add up. Or maybe there are some ingredient issues with the "goody bag", although I would rank that possibility below the others at this point since it is hard to imagine that using the Imperial margarine and fresh egg in lieu of their commercial counterparts in the Bisquick Original mix would have had a major effect on the outcome. We would have to use the same or very similar ingredients that are used in the Bisquick Original mix to know for sure, which may not be a viable option at this point.

I suppose that in due course you might try making a Sukie pizza again using the Bisquick buttermilk biscuit mix and the "goody bag" for that application. If you can get similar results as you got the last time, that would be reassuring since you would know that using that combination is a viable approach.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 10:18:52 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your latest results. From your description, clearly what you got was not the Sukie pizza that you hoped it would be. It is hard to explain why that was the case. Perhaps the jump from the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix and finally to the Sukie dough via the "goody bag" was too much. Or my attempts at reverse engineering the two mixes did not succeed, or sufficiently so, even though all the numbers seemed to add up. Or maybe there are some ingredient issues with the "goody bag", although I would rank that possibility below the others at this point since it is hard to imagine that using the Imperial margarine and fresh egg in lieu of their commercial counterparts in the Bisquick Original mix would have had a major effect on the outcome. We would have to use the same or very similar ingredients that are used in the Bisquick Original mix to know for sure, which may not be a viable option at this point.

I suppose that in due course you might try making a Sukie pizza again using the Bisquick buttermilk biscuit mix and the "goody bag" for that application. If you can get similar results as you got the last time, that would be reassuring since you would know that using that combination is a viable approach.

Peter

Peter,

I also was stumped why this recent pizza turned out like it did.  The dough felt about the same, fermented about the same and even smelled the same.  I wish I could have said it also baked the same.  I don’t know if it had anything to do with baking in my home oven or not, but don’t think it would make that big of a difference.  There was no Bisquick taste in the taste of the crust and I have no idea why the crust was soft, when it should have baked better. The pizza was good, but not as good as the “goody bag” with the other two biscuit mixes I tried.  I wonder if I should just try the “goody bag” you had set-forth before with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix.  It would be interesting to see how that would turn out.  I know the ingredients aren’t the same, but it makes me wonder what would happen.  I know you have worked very hard on this project and I appreciate you doing that. 

I did buy another bag of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and plan on trying that again at market Tuesday.  Even the other Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mix turned out well with the other “goody bag” you set-forth.   ;D

I even wonder if the new dough enhancer would work with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix.  I could just add about 4% to see what would happen.  I don’t care if I “wing it”.  I just like to see what happens in experiments.

BTW, I did use the extra dough that I had leftover from Reply 117 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138168.html#msg138168 I had frozen that part of the dough and took it out of the freezer last evening (and put it into the refrigerator until after I baked the pizza).  I thought I would be baking a pizza today, so I thought I would try to make bread out of the rest of that dough.  Well the bread didn’t come out really airy, but it really turned into great bread.  I had a slice with butter and I really liked it.  I would have thought that the dough sitting in the refrigerator from last evening until later today, would have risen more, but it didn’t.  I also wonder why the extra piece of dough that I made into bread didn’t rise after being defrosted.

Pictures of bread

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 10:59:16 PM
I also was stumped why this recent pizza turned out like it did.  The dough felt about the same, fermented about the same and even smelled the same.  I wish I could have said it also baked the same.  I don’t know if it had anything to do with baking in my home oven or not, but don’t think it would make that big of a difference.

Norma,

I always look for the obvious first. Looking at the photos and your description of the crust characteristics, is it possible that the IDY was left out of the "goody bag"? When I went back and looked at the ingredients, they didn't look out of line so as to produce such a different dough performance. From your description, it
sounds like this dough performed differently than the last one with the much higher hydration.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 11:43:36 PM
Norma,

I always look for the obvious first. Looking at the photos and your description of the crust characteristics, is it possible that the IDY was left out of the "goody bag"? When I went back and looked at the ingredients, they didn't look out of line so as to produce such a different dough performance. From your description, it
sounds like this dough performed differently than the last one with the much higher hydration.

Peter


Peter,

I am 99% positive, I put the IDY in the “goody bag”.  I went over all the ingredients 3 times, so I was sure I would get this right this time, after I had messed up with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix the last time. I had all the ingredients out before I even started the “goody bag” and put them away as I used each one.  If you want me to repeat this experiment at market, I would be happy to repeat it again.  It also has me stumped what happened.  How would the dough have risen so much two times if I had forgotten the IDY?  When I did the first experiment with the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix at market where the dough came up to the top of the lid, I had used a smaller plastic container, in that experiment.  In the experiment with the cheese-garlic biscuit mix, I had used a larger plastic container, like I did today. I also used a larger plastic container for the experiment I did at home with my proposed added ingredients to your “goody bag”.

This dough today did preform much differently than with the higher hydration, but think that was because I didn’t weight out the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix right.  Do you think any of this makes any sense?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 11:55:07 PM
Norma,

Thank you for confirming what you did. It was just that the last two sets of photos looked so different. Not knowing exactly how much baking powder is in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I thought that there may have been enough after you added more to support a fair amount of fermentation.

I will leave it up to you if you'd care to give the dough another try, but at market this time.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 12:16:53 AM
Norma,

Thank you for confirming what you did. It was just that the last two sets of photos looked so different. Not knowing exactly how much baking powder is in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I thought that there may have been enough after you added more to support a fair amount of fermentation.

I will leave it up to you if you'd care to give the dough another try, but at market this time.

Peter

Peter,

I know the set of photos from market, (with the wrong amount of Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix) and the photos from today, do look really different.  The taste of both of them were really different too!  I didn’t know that you thought maybe the baking powder was responsible for the fermentation.  Each of the times I did do these experiments, the doughs all rose in about the same manner and about in the same amount of time for the bulk rise and also after the dough ball was formed and oiled.  Today it was only a little bit longer than 4 hrs. from start to finish.  I tried to keep the time frame almost the same, but the room temperatures were different.

I am also curious about what happened.  I will repeat the same experiment I did today, at market Tuesday.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 10:10:50 AM
Norma,

Thank you for giving this another try.

This morning, I tried to find the label information for the Imperial margarine in order to look at its ingredients again to see if I could find anything there that might have affected the last dough batch. I couldn't find the exact form of the Imperial package I saw in the supermarket recently, but I did find an interesting and useful website at http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=361005 that provides the label information for a very large number of margarine products, far more than I have seen in the stores near me. Most of the margarine products in those stores tend to be the "healthy" variety, whereas what GM uses for its Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix--partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil--is considered to be of the "unhealthy" variety, at least as current thinking goes on the subject.

Whoever thought that we would be researching pancake and waffle mixes, biscuit mixes, margarine products, shortening and lard and what goes into them? This is supposed to be a pizza site :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 11:11:00 AM
Norma,

Thank you for giving this another try.

This morning, I tried to find the label information for the Imperial margarine in order to look at its ingredients again to see if I could find anything there that might have affected the last dough batch. I couldn't find the exact form of the Imperial package I saw in the supermarket recently, but I did find an interesting and useful website at http://www.labelwatch.com/prod_results.php?pid=361005 that provides the label information for a very large number of margarine products, far more than I have seen in the stores near me. Most of the margarine products in those stores tend to be the "healthy" variety, whereas what GM uses for its Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix--partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil--is considered to be of the "unhealthy" variety, at least as current thinking goes on the subject.

Whoever thought that we would be researching pancake and waffle mixes, biscuit mixes, margarine products, shortening and lard and what goes into them? This is supposed to be a pizza site :-D.

Peter

Peter,

The website you found about margarine is interesting.  The Imperial margarine I have at market, and now, also here at home is the 53% vegetable oil spread in stick form.  Do you think this brand had anything to do with how the recent pizza turned out or do you think using fresh egg also did something?

I know I am not like you in being able to do the math and also reverse-engineering products.
I did email Edna this morning, after she sent me an email early this morning, saying she really wanted to know about any tests I did on the Stretch-Out product.  I did ask her the questions you wanted to know about.  I still wonder if using about 4% Stretch-Out would work with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix.

I also got another Biquick pouch of a different kind of product that I am going to try at market Tuesday with your other “goody bag” just to see what happens.

I never thought we would be researching all this stuff, either, but I remember the Ultra-Thin thread where there was a lot of research, and then the pizza curst didn’t even had any taste.  At least so far in this thread with your other “goody bag” and the Buttermilk and Cheese-Garlic biscuit mixes, those pizzas were very successful.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 12:43:50 PM
The Imperial margarine I have at market, and now, also here at home is the 53% vegetable oil spread in stick form.  Do you think this brand had anything to do with how the recent pizza turned out or do you think using fresh egg also did something?

Norma,

It is hard to say because there is not a lot of margarine (1/2 tablespoon) and not much egg (1/5th of a large egg, or 10 grams). But, as you know from experimenting with the dough enhancers, the amounts of some of the ingredients can be quite small on a percentage basis. I also estimate that there is about 3.4 grams of water in the margarine and about another 7.6 grams of water from the egg, or about 11 grams total. But if the water was the issue, then I think it should have manifested itself in the high hydration version of the formulation that you tried. I think that would also have been true for using margarine and fresh egg as substitutes for the comparable ingredients used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2011, 07:02:24 AM
The “goody bag” mix (with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, combined with KABF, and the other ingredients, except the egg, Imperial, and water) is ready to go to market today. I have all the instructions ready to go to market, too.  Hopefully this time, this pizza will turn into a Sukie pizza. 

There are also two other “goody bags” ready for the Biquick Buttermilk Biscuit mix and also another Mystery Pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 09:50:33 PM
Since this thread started out with a mystery pizza Steve and I made at market, I decided to try another Mystery Pizza today.  This mystery pizza with Peter’s first “goody bag” turned out great!  ;D I only had to add one other ingredient to this mystery dough to be able to make a pizza and it wasn’t water.  Steve and I added 2.5 oz. of the mystery ingredient to the rest of the mix, to be able to make this Sukie pizza.  This was really a different pizza.  The dressings for this mystery pizza were, St. Dalfour Royal Fig (100% fruit) from France, powdered confectionary sugar, and fresh blueberries.  The crumb of this mystery pizza was really moist and tender. One of our test tasters that we gave a sample of this pizza to, wanted to buy the rest of the pizza, but Steve and I wanted to take some slices home. We did give that test tester another slice. Two customers also tried this mystery Sukie pizza and also really liked it.  In my opinion, this mystery Sukie pizza, would be interesting if anyone wanted to try it.  It was very easy to make.

The one thing that was changed when making this mystery pizza and also the other two Sukie pizzas today, was we didn’t let the dough proof as long in any of them.  The bulk rise and after forming the dough ball were only a total of a little less than 3 hrs.  I don’t know if that was what was wrong before, with the pizza I had made at home or not, but the dough had seemed too extensible, and all the doughs today performed well.  All of 3 doughs opened well, and didn’t want to just almost fall apart when opening them.

Peter, I think you will be glad to hear all three Sukie pizzas turned out well.  ;D The one Sukie pizza was made with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, with your “goody bag”.  The other Sukie pizza was made with the Buttermilk Biscuit mix, in combination with the other first “goody bag”.

Anyone care to guess what this Mystery Sukie pizza was made from?

Pictures of Mystery Sukie pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 09:54:00 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 09:56:42 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:00:57 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2011, 10:28:25 PM
Norma,

Whatever you used to make the pizza, it sure looks tasty.

My guess is that you used a Betty Crocker blueberry muffin pouch mix. My guess on the mystery ingredient is a dairy product, maybe sour cream or something like that.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:35:55 PM
Norma,

Whatever you used to make the pizza, it sure looks tasty.

My guess is that you used a Betty Crocker blueberry muffin pouch mix. My guess on the mystery ingredient is a dairy product, maybe sour cream or something like that.

Peter

Peter,

You are close in the guess.  It was the Betty Crocker Triple Berry muffin pouch mix.  The Sukie pizza made with the muffin mix did really taste good! I never would have thought a pizza could be made out of a muffin mix, but your “goody bag”, made it possible.  ;D The mystery ingredient wasn’t a dairy product, but I will give another clue.  It was a dry ingredient used because the water amount made the dough too sticky.

Picture of product used to make this Sukie pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:40:13 PM
This is the Sukie pizza made with the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix with Peter’s “goody bag”.  Second successful Sukie pizza made today.  ;D  From start to the finish, only less than 3 hrs.  The temperature at market was cooler today.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:43:18 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:50:26 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:51:46 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 10:59:34 PM
I also emailed Tim Huff this morning and asked him a few questions about the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix and the two biscuit mixes I have tried in these doughs in this thread.  I did sent Tim Huff pictures of the two pizzas made with the biscuit mixes.

This is what I wrote to Tim Huff and what he replied to me today.

Hi Tim,
 
I am a pizza maker and have a small pizza stand at a local farmer's market, called Root's Country Market in Manheim, Pa.
 
What I wonder is I experiment with many types of pizzas and have used Bisquick for years in making biscuits, pancakes, and shortbread.  I recently used one of the Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit pouches and made a very tasty and normal looking pizza, by adding other ingredients.  I also used the cheese-garlic biscuit mix and also made a great pizza by adding other ingredients to that pouch.  I am now trying to reproduce my same results with Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  Do you have any idea what would be the best approach for me trying to do this?  I don't know what kind of flour that is used in Bisquick products, but I would guess it was a low protein flour.  I have looked on the web for pizzas made with Bisquick products and to me they don't look like they turn out too well.  I had two successful bakes with the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix for pizza, but they weren't the same as when I used the Bisquick Buttermilk or Bisquick cheese-garlic biscuit mixes.  
 
Do you have any idea of how the three Bisquick products compare in ingredients and what I might try next to get the same results using the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix?
 
These are a few pictures of what the pizzas looked like using the Bisquick biscuit mixes, from the biscuit pouches.
 
Thanks for any advice.

Norma

Hi Norma -
Thanks for the e-mail.  That’s exciting that you found a pizza dough that you liked using a Bisquick product.  Unfortunately, going from the pouch biscuit mixes to the boxed Bisquick mix you are working with two different products.  The pouch is really formulated “just” for biscuits, whereas the boxed mix is really an all-purpose mix.  The type of fat used in the pouch mixes is very different than that used in the all-purpose mix and this difference would relate to the differences that you see in the crust.  Most everything thing else in the formula is about the same.
 
What I would suggest, however, is that one of our foodservice Gold Medal Biscuit mix is much closer to the pouch mix (as it uses the same type of fat) and I think you would have better success.  It is available in 5# boxes (code 11765) or a 25# bag (code 11766) and could be purchased through foodservice distributors such as Sysco or USFoodservice.
 
I hope this helps!
 
 
Tim Huff

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 11:27:12 PM
This is the third Sukie pizza made today, using the Buttermilk Biscuit mix.  Congrats Peter, you were successful in providing “goody bags” to make all three of these Sukie pizzas today!  :chef:

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 11:31:39 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 11:33:52 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 11:35:25 PM
end of pictures..Whew that was a lot of pictures to post in one day.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2011, 11:50:16 PM
Norma,

Thank you conducting the latest set of Sukie experiments and for posting your results. It sounds like you had a busy day today, but a very productive one.

Now that you have made several Sukie pizzas, can you give us an overall assessment of the pros and cons of the pizzas made from the various mixes and "goody bags"?

With respect to your email exchange with Tim Huff, I think he may have misspoken on the fat content of the various mixes. Both the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix contain partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil. It is the Bisquick Garlic Cheese biscuit mix that has the different fat composition. That mix has both partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil and other oils, including palm oil. Yet, that mix also turned out pretty well when used with one of the "goody bags".

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 12:26:44 AM
Norma,

Thank you conducting the latest set of Sukie experiments and for posting your results. It sounds like you had a busy day today, but a very productive one.

Now that you have made several Sukie pizzas, can you give us an overall assessment of the pros and cons of the pizzas made from the various mixes and "goody bags"?

With respect to your email exchange with Tim Huff, I think he may have misspoken on the fat content of the various mixes. Both the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix contain partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil. It is the Bisquick Garlic Cheese biscuit mix that has the different fat composition. That mix has both partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil and other oils, including palm oil. Yet, that mix also turned out pretty well when used with one of the "goody bags".

Peter

Peter,

Steve and I had fun with the Sukie pizzas today.  I am still surprised how fast they can be made.  

I still am not sure why I had the results I had this past weekend, when I tried to make a Sukie pizza at home, but think I might have overfermented the dough.  I don’t know if you think that is a possibility or not, but the dough today in all three pizzas was much easier to handle than the other ones I have made in this thread except the first pizza with the Betty Crocker pizza mix.  Do you think I might have let some of these doughs go to long with the bulk ferment and then also the ferment after balling?  I am still not sure if there is a certain time when to use these doughs, but from my experiments so far, think there might be a certain time they should be used.  Do you have any thought on the amount of time to use these doughs?

I think it is very easy to make these Sukie pizza using any of the biscuit, muffin or Bisquick Pancake and Baking mixes, after I got the troubles ironed out.  All of these pizzas did have a good taste in the crust.  The Buttermilk biscuit mix, with your “goody bag” does smell like pancakes when it is baking.  It still has a more fluffy pancake taste.  The Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix does taste more like a regular pizza.  I thought the Triple Berry muffin mix, gave the most elegant taste to the crust.  I really like the berry taste in the crust.  That pizza was moister than the others.  The rim and crust just melted in my mouth.  I really liked it.  

I think both of your “goody bags” really worked out well in all of the pizzas I have tried so far.

Do you think I should send a reply to Tim?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 11:23:12 AM
Norma,

I do believe that it was possible that the last Sukie dough you used at home fermented too long. You used a fair amount of IDY and there no doubt is a fair amount of leavening in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix. Consequently, the two together can provide a powerful leavening machine. I had suggested using the IDY both for flavor and to get some fermentation byproducts. The dextrose in the Bisquick mix helps that fermentation process along because, as a simple sugar, it is immediately available as food for the yeast. I had tentatively ruled out overfermentation as the cause of the results you achieved at home because the crust looked so much different from the comparable one that you made at market. I know you are careful and meticulous with your measurements, but I wanted to rule out the possibility of human error, which is something that occasionally afflicts all of us.

I think the key component of the "goody bags" that has made everything work has been the use of the King Arthur bread flour (KABF). The rest of the ingredients in the "goody bags" were simply adjusted to track the mixes that I analyzed as part of my reverse engineering efforts. There had to be enough of the KABF to take the commercial mixes from the pancake and biscuit (and your recent multi-berry muffin mix) realm to the pizza dough realm with the flour blend (presumptably cake and bread flour) having a total protein content that would be commensurate with a flour used to make pizza dough. As it so happened, the amount of flour that would do that was close to the amount of flour that I concluded from my reverse engineering efforts was in the pouch mixes. I think that was just fortuitous, with the chips neatly falling into place. A side benefit--an important one--is that I was able to use the full amount of the mixes in the pouches (or comparable amounts from the boxed Bisquick Original mix). Otherwise, we would have had to weigh out amounts of mixes from the pouches, and you would have ended up with left over mix that might not be usable for much of anything else.

If there is a drawback to the approach I used in coming up with the "goody bags" is that you end up with an amount of dough that is fairly high. It is enough to make a single 16" pizza or two roughly 12" pizzas. In a commercial setting, as at Betty Crocker's/GM, that would not be a particularly good selling feature since home bakers are unlikely to want--or to be able--to make 16" pizzas and they may not want to make two roughly 12" pizzas. A more viable commercial application from the Betty Crocker/GM perspective would be to concoct a mix that comes in a box and is measured out based on the desired size and number of pizzas. Since the ingredients for such a mix would be the same as the range of Bisquick mixes you have been exploring, the mix would have similar stability and shelf life.

With respect to Tim Huff, I don't think there is much to be gained from responding back to him. He would have to get into the nitty gritty of what we have been doing in this thread, which would take up more time than he might be able to devote to the matter. The same would apply if you went to Tom Lehmann, except that he would think that we have lost our minds. I might add that I have never mentioned our forum to Tim Huff. I did not want him to associate me with the forum. He has always viewed and treated me as a professional, not an amateur. I'd like to keep it that way.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 01:29:20 PM
Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about I might have overfermented the Sukie dough at home.  I had thought, that might be possible, because when I went to open the dough, it just wanted to almost fall apart and keep stretching, even when I went to try and place it on my pizza peel.  I really had problems transferring the skin to my pizza peel.  That is how it ended up being too big for my pizza stone.  I back tracked and thought over all that I had done with these “goody bags”, and experiments and thought about how some of the doughs behaved.  Some of them were almost like the one I did at home, but not as bad.  I told Steve yesterday, I wasn’t going to bulk ferment as long, or ferment as long after the reball to see if the dough would behave better.  That approach seemed to work, in all the Sukie pizzas made yesterday.  I know everyone can make measurement errors, but thought after the first one I did, I would be really careful in measuring everything.  

I also think the key component of the “goody bags” was the KABF.  Your reverse engineering of the other analyzed ingredients also were necessary for this to work to be able to take any of these mixes from something else into the pizza realm. I don’t think luck or fortune, had much to do with these successful pizzas. It was your hard work that made it happen.  The Triple Berry Muffin mix, was too sticky, because I guess, I had added to much water (I had used the amount for the biscuit mixes with the “goody bag”). It didn’t feel like pizza dough at all. I then added the 2.5 oz. of ADM high-gluten flour. That must have taken the Triple Berry Muffin mix, along with your first “goody bag” into the pizza realm.  

I think Betty Crocker/GM could benefit from your reverse-engineering to be able to come up with a much better pizza mix.  :)

I know you have posted before that Tim Huff doesn’t know you are here on the forum, and I didn’t say anything about you in my email.  I just wanted to see if Tim Huff could give me any useful information about the products.

Lol, I do think Tom Lehmann would think we lost our minds, if he would read this thread.  :-D

I give you five stars for all the hard work you have done on this project!  I only started this thread to see how a home pizza makers crust would taste, using a Betty Crocker product. Thanks for making it possible for my wish come true in this thread, for other Betty Crocker mixes to be made into pizzas. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DK7qU1Ik2HQ

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 02:05:55 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the kind words. But please don't take the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix and ask me how to make donuts out of it :-D. You can ask Tom Lehmann for that since in a prior life he actually was in the donut business.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 10:10:03 PM
This was a reheated slice of the Triple Berry pizza.  The slice was reheated in the microwave with added blueberries.  This was the first time I liked a pizza reheated in the microwave.  The added blueberries just added the final touch to the pizza.  The crust on this Triple Berry pizza was so nice and soft and also light and airy.  In my opinion, this is a great dessert pizza.  The fig dressing with the added berry crust with blueberries is going to be one of my favorite dessert pizzas.  I think I am going to try the Triple Berry Sukie pizza at market again next week and see how customers respond to it.

I still have one slice to reheat.  I gave a slice to my mother, and she really enjoyed it too.

Some pig farmer's yell “suey”, “suey” to call the pig's to come eat.  Maybe Sukie will come!  ;D

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 10:55:36 PM
Norma,

When you have a spare moment, would you mind posting the items, including the Betty Crocker muffin mix and the "goody bag" ingredients, that went into the latest dessert pizza? That way, members will have everything in one place. You also mentioned that you had to add a bit more flour to overcome some stickiness of the dough. Would you reduce the amount of water the next time instead?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Norma,

When you have a spare moment, would you mind posting the items, including the Betty Crocker muffin mix and the "goody bag" ingredients, that went into the latest dessert pizza? That way, members will have everything in one place. You also mentioned that you had to add a bit more flour to overcome some stickiness of the dough. Would you reduce the amount of water the next time instead?

Peter

Peter,

What I added to the Betty Crocker Triple Berry Muffin mix was your “goody bag” at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736 The added water amount was 7.02 ounces of hot water.  The dough was then too sticky and not like a pizza dough, so I added 2.5 oz. of ADM flour (which is a high-gluten bromated flour) The dough was still a little sticky, but not much.  I then let the dough proof for about 1 ½ hrs, then balled the dough with a little more flour, then brushed the dough ball with olive oil and the let the dough ball sit at room temperature for another about 1 ½ hrs. or a little less. 

I think I would try using less water next week.  I don’t know though, because I did like how moist and airy the crumb turned out.  I don’t know if the crumb turned out that way, because of the high-gluten added flour or because the dough was a little sticky.  If I had to guess, I would think the light and airy crust was from the higher hydration.  The pizza was a little thicker, too, from the added flour.  The weight of the Betty Crocker Berry Muffin mix is 6.5 oz. (184g), so that was less weight than the Buttermilk Biscuit mix was. (7.5 oz, 212 grams) This was a 16" pizza I made.

This is also the picture I had posted before of the Triple Berry Muffin mix.

When I do this experiment again next week, I will try to give better directions if anyone is interested.  I was only using this Triple Berry Muffin mix in an experiment to see if it would work. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2011, 10:50:13 AM
Norma,

I know that the Stretch-Out product that you have been testing out in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html is almost ice cream-like in texture but, out of curiosity, were the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix and the various Bisquick mixes that you used to make your Sukie and other pizzas fine textured or did they have small lumps of fat dispersed through them? In this vein, I recalled trying to sift a Jiffy Pizza Mix product, which uses lard or similar fats, and I couldn't get everything through the screen. I know that some mixes that the larger pizza chains use, like Godfather's, have sprayed forms of fat in the mixes. I also spoke with a representative of another company today that makes a pizza crust mix and was told that the shortening in the mix is a sprayed form of shortening.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 11:53:28 AM
Norma,

I know that the Stretch-Out product that you have been testing out in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.0.html is almost ice cream-like in texture but, out of curiosity, were the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix and the various Bisquick mixes that you used to make your Sukie and other pizzas fine textured or did they have small lumps of fat dispersed through them? In this vein, I recalled trying to sift a Jiffy Pizza Mix product, which uses lard or similar fats, and I couldn't get everything through the screen. I know that some mixes that the larger pizza chains use, like Godfather's, have sprayed forms of fat in the mixes. I also spoke with a representative of another company today that makes a pizza crust mix and was told that the shortening in the mix is a sprayed form of shortening.

Peter

Peter,

As can be seen in the picture of the dough at Reply 75 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137844.html#msg137844 using the Betty Crocker Buttermilk mix in combination with your “goody bag” there wasn’t much of any fat granules in the dough.  I really didn’t notice them either in the mix. As the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix, doesn’t have as much fat as the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, I didn’t notice fat granules in the Original Bisquick mix either, when looking at it or when making the dough, as can be seen in Reply 175 second picture down http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg139503.html#msg139503 Even when using the Betty Crocker Triple Berry muffin mix, I couldn’t detect any fat in the dough or mix, as can also be seen in the dough at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg139495.html#msg139495 When I could notice fat in the dough was when I made the dough for the Betty Crocker cheese-bisuit mix at Reply 140 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138548.html#msg138548 unless that substance was something else.  What ever that substance was it also could be seen in the finished pizza crust at Reply 143 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg138553.html#msg138553

I really wouldn’t say any of the mixes or Original Bisquick were fine textured, but no other fat (or similar substance) was in the mixes, that I could detect. 

Edna did give me contact information for Lentz Milling to possibly get a product like partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil at Reply 52 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139846.html#msg139846

Edna was the lady that was helping me with the Stretch-Out product and also other products she sent to me to experiment with.

Thanks for talking to another company that makes a pizza crust mix.  It is interesting that they use a spray dried shortening in their mix.  I guess that would be a much better approach, because it would finely disperse the fat much better.  When I was trying to make a sugar-free caramel corn years ago, I also found out about spray dried products, but they were too expensive for me to experiment with.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2011, 02:51:52 PM
Norma,

As you can see from the photo below, the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix has so many different ingredients that it is hard to say which of them is visible in the dough and the finished pizza.

I am beginning to think that GM is using a dried form of partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. What would be interesting is to know how a wet form compares with a dry form, both quantitatively and qualitatively.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 07:14:49 PM
Norma,

As you can see from the photo below, the Bisquick Cheese-Garlic biscuit mix has so many different ingredients that it is hard to say which of them is visible in the dough and the finished pizza.

I am beginning to think that GM is using a dried form of partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. What would be interesting is to know how a wet form compares with a dry form, both quantitatively and qualitatively.

Peter

Peter,

I did post before Steve and I did tasted whatever the substance was in the Biquick cheese-garlic mix and it tasted like nothing. 

I wonder if I can get to purchase something like shortening powder if that would get closer to what GM uses.

This is a link to a forum discussing using shortening powder.  http://www.food.com/bb/viewtopic.zsp?t=285205 I wonder if that is something like GM uses.
http://store.honeyvillegrain.com/powderedshorteninglargecan.aspx
http://amatterofpreparedness.blogspot.com/2009/08/its-matter-of-shortening-powder.html

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 08:42:54 PM
I had replied to Edna's email, about using freeze dried oil or finding a some kind of oil that could be used in a base of flour.

This is what Edna replied to me, a short while ago.

Norma – My lunch was great! Yes, I had pizza,  I have never heard of freeze dried oil.  We sell what is called a Plastic Base – this means the product has the shortening in the base.  You may want to ask Lentz – they can give you a number for a shortening company like Ventura Foods – They manufacture shortening - - Thank you.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2011, 09:55:09 PM
Norma,

I have never heard of freeze dried shortening either. When I did a Google search on "freeze dried shortening", I got four hits. So, that terminology cannot be right. I have heard of shortening powders and spray dried shortening. I believe that shortening powders and spray dried shortening may be the same thing. For example, if you look at the Godfather's Pizza mix as set forth at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, the "spray dried shortening" comprises partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids and sodium caseinate. If you look at a typical shortening powder sold as a "shortening powder", for example, at http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145&bhcd2=1222514654, you will find a very similar ingredients list.

What I found interesting is that most of the places that sell shortening powders seem to address mainly emergency or survivalist or camping markets. I am sure that there are commercial sources of powdered shortenings that serve baking and similar applications.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 11:36:57 PM
Norma,

I have never heard of freeze dried shortening either. When I did a Google search on "freeze dried shortening", I got four hits. So, that terminology cannot be right. I have heard of shortening powders and spray dried shortening. I believe that shortening powders and spray dried shortening may be the same thing. For example, if you look at the Godfather's Pizza mix as set forth at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, the "spray dried shortening" comprises partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids and sodium caseinate. If you look at a typical shortening powder sold as a "shortening powder", for example, at http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145&bhcd2=1222514654, you will find a very similar ingredients list.

What I found interesting is that most of the places that sell shortening powders seem to address mainly emergency or survivalist or camping markets. I am sure that there are commercial sources of powdered shortenings that serve baking and similar applications.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t think I had my morning coffee when I sent that email to Edna this morning..lol I meant to write in the email spray dried shortening.  No wonder she didn’t know what I was talking about.   :-D

When I did Google shortening powder, I though that might be something like what is used in the GM products.  I also saw that it was mostly used by survivalists or camping markets.

I will call Lentz, Ventura, or either look on the web to see where spray dried shortening might be able to be purchased.  I would guess that is what is used in the Betty Crocker mixes or Original Bisquick to keep them dry feeling, with no clumps of noticeable oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2011, 08:03:56 AM

I sent a request for a sample or samples of spray dried shortening powder to Bluegrass Dairy and Food, Inc.  On the bottom of this page, it can be seen what kinds of dried shortening powder they carry if you click on View Our Non-Dairy Creamer Products >>

http://www.bluegrassdairy.com/creamers_and_shortening_powders.html

Article on maximizing convenience with bakery mixes and some parts about fats in bakery mixes.

http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/1998/09/maximizing-convenience-with-bakery-mixes.aspx

I read this part of a book about dry shortening and other ingreidents in  making biscuit mixes in a Google book.  There is also has a Blueberry Muffin formula on page 446.

http://books.google.com/books?id=WKY0h5YrQVwC&pg=PA438&lpg=PA438&dq=encapsulated+shortening+for+biscuit+mixes&source=bl&ots=c35rIwI5VR&sig=6rfYRew6KujXX6-RBpwhpSRl10Q&hl=en&ei=mp_XTcK8D9TOgAe32-BX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

This part of a patent from Pillsbury that says high fat (shortening chips) are used.
http://ip.com/patent/USRE36785

Another patent for biscuits that says shortening is present in a physical form selected from the group consisting of ribbons, chips, plasticized shortening and other information.

http://invention.patentpot.com/invest54/patent5458903_High-fat-biscuit-mix-and-products-resulting-therefrom-5458903/

This patent for dry mix biscuits reads about Fats and fatty oils useful in producing shortening consistent with the invention include  soybean oil, cottonseed oil and others. Different working  samples (10) including working sample 1, as provided below.

Working Example 1 Percent Ingredient (Wt-%)
______________________________________

Hard Flour 11.11
Soft Flour 33.00
Water 29.15
Shortening (Plastic)
12.10
Shortening Chip 5.20
Buttermilk 2.97
Soda 1.09
Sodium Acid 0.88
Pyrophosphate
Sodium Aluminum 0.44
Phosphate
Mono Calcium 0.19
Phosphate
Sugar 1.24
Corn Solids 0.74
Salt 0.99
Albumen 0.30
Caseinate 0.40
Dairy Flavor 0.20

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5458903.html

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 21, 2011, 12:19:17 PM
Norma,

When I was doing my searches on this subject, I ran into the Bluegrassdairy.com website and noted that one can request samples. Are they for free, and do you have to be in a business to get them?

I thought that the article at http://www.foodproductdesign.com/articles/1998/09/maximizing-convenience-with-bakery-mixes.aspx was very interesting and informative. I recall from articles that Tom Lehmann has written that it is possible to add fats to a "goody bag", but I would imagine that most commercial premixes, like those from GM, use a dry form of oils, especially the partially hydrogenated forms.

At some point, you might consider calling Weisenberger Mill (http://www.weisenberger.com/) and see if anyone there will tell you their source of the shortening powders, like the one used in their Pizza Crust Mix. I am sure that there are several companies in the field but it might shortcut your work sorting through those sources. I found the person I spoke with at Weisenberger Mill yesterday to be very open and helpful is discussing their products. They might not tell you their source of the shortening products but it can't hurt to ask.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2011, 01:04:08 PM
Peter,

I just used the contact page at Bluegrassdairy.com, so I don’t know if know if I will get samples, or if someone has to be a business to get them.  If I don’t get any contact from them until later next week, I will call them.

I also think GM does used some form of dried oil or oils in their mixes.

I now have contacted Cooperative Purchasers about maybe getting a sample or purchasing a small amount of dextrose.  It seems there are different types of dextrose that are used in the food industry. http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/   http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/Ingredients/Dextrose/How-Is-Dextrose-Monohydrate-Used.html

I also contacted the same company about Phosphates.  http://www.cooperativepurchasers.com/Ingredients/Phosphates/

Another place I contacted was:http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/ABITEC%20Brochures/ABITEC%20-%20Food_Flavor_Nutrition.pdf and http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Caprol%20Tech%20Data/Abitec_Greenetics_Chart_FINAL_WF.pdf about soybean and cottonseeed oils.

Next week I will call Weisenberger Mill and see if anyone can tell me where their source is for shortening powders.  Thanks for suggesting it to me, to give me less work.  It never hurts to ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 09:11:58 AM
I don’t know if this article is accurate or not, but it says, commercial mixes such as Bisquik use All purpose flours.  http://www.ehow.com/facts_7148362_baking-mix-vs_-flour.html

On another forum there is a recipe for fake Bisquick.  I don’t know how that would work out in combination with one of the “goody bags” or not.

http://forum.lowcarber.org/archive/index.php/t-245807.html

There also are other recipes for making home made Biquick, one being: http://www.grouprecipes.com/105486/home-made-bisquick.html

In Google books there is a reference to types of dextrose used in baking mixes.  It seems like dextrose hydrate is used by most food processors.  It also mentions of Polydextrose used for lower sugar content in other articles. Definition of polydextrose http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydextrose

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: jgestner on May 22, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
Hi Norma and Peter
Here is a link to a bisquick like baking mix. http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html)

I know it's Sandra Lee but it looks like works. Maybe worth a look anyway. Your pizzas look great, both with the baking mix and regular doughs.

Have fun.

John in Merrill
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2011, 11:14:15 AM
Norma,

I don't pay much attention to outfits like eHow. eHow is considered to be what is called a "content farm" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Content_farm). Content farming has become a big business. In this case, eHow is owned by Demand Media Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demand_Media), which may well be the largest firm of its type. This is somewhat an oversimplication and may not be a complete explanation, but companies like Demand Media use search engine optimization (SEO) methods where, among other things, they study the search terms that are most frequently used on Google searches and they create articles, using people hired to create them (they are not paid much per article), based on those search terms. They tie in those articles with other eHow articles and a lot of advertising. And they do all of this so that eHow and their other properties show up near the top of Google search results when people use Google (which has the largest market share in online search--around 72%) for searching. There are now several companies that specialize in SEO (e.g., http://www.findmycompany.com/?referral=google&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=SEO%2BOptimization&gclid=CM_Jkr7h-6gCFdI32god1mFKRw).

And it is not only companies like Demand Media that use SEO. I read recently that Huffington Post, which was recently purchased by AOL for about $315 million, with Arianna getting about $18 million of that, also uses SEO. The AOL purchase irritated a lot of the Huff Post writers, many of whom write for free (but can plug their own products). The only "content farm" I trust on pizza making is this forum. I might add as a footnote that Google changed its algorithms after getting a lot of compaints from advertisers on Google that content farms were hogging all of the top spots on search results and moving them far down the list and being missed by searchers (it is very common for searchers to look at only the first page or two of hits).

On the matter of clones of Bisquick mixes, early on in this thread I conducted several Google searches looking for such clones. I found quite a few. But just about all of them were on blogs or recipe sites that are like content farms. The creators of those clones were usually home cooks who just threw a bunch of ingredients together, apparently with success based on their reports. However, I did not find a single instance where the creator of a Bisquick mix clone did so using reverse engineering analysis. So, I could not take those efforts seriously.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2011, 12:19:22 PM
Here is a link to a bisquick like baking mix. http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/sandra-lee/all-purpose-baking-mix-recipe2/index.html)

John in Merrill,

The Sandra Lee recipe is not all that bad. But it could use some sugar in a baker's percent that is greater than the baker's percent for the salt. Dextrose would be even better. However, on the matter of the type of flour, if you look at the ingredients list for the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix as shown below, you would have to conclude that the only protein in the formulation is in the flour. Unless the partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil(s) is spray coated with a dairy-based ingredient, which might have a small amount of protein, there is no protein (or it would be de minimis) in any of the other ingredients. When I tried to reverse engineer the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix, I came up with a percent protein in the flour used in the Bisquick mix that was below the protein content of all-purpose flour (I was assuming something around 10+%). My best guess is that the Bisquick flour is either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%. With the rounding of numbers that the regulators allow in Nutrition Facts, it is hard to get an exact fix.

In my analysis, I used an iterative process in which I tested many combinations of quantities of ingredients to come up with the required weight (both the net weight in a pouch or box), so I can't say for sure that I got the exact amount of flour or other ingredient in the mix. One would have to do a side-by-side test using the clone mix against the real thing. Even then, it would be hard to say because we, as retail level consumers, do not have easy access to the same types of commercial ingredients used by GM in its mixes. I think Norma would like to try to find sources of those ingredients to use them in her clones.

Peter

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 01:09:16 PM
John in Merrill,

Thanks for providing the Sandra Lee Biquick like mix.  :) I appreciate you posted that you like the baking mix pizzas and my other pizzas.  I am going to try another mystery pizza Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 01:25:15 PM
Peter,

Thanks for explaining what “content farms” are.  I didn’t understand before how they worked before, or what they were. I can now understand why you only trust the information that is here on the forum.  I didn’t see any single instance where the creator of a Bisquick mix, created a clone either.  I will have to do my searches more carefully now, since you have explained everything.  I know you have researched many products and pizza information on the web, so I would trust what you posted. 

You are right in your post to John in Merril, that I would like to find sources that GM really uses in their mixes.  I am working on finding the commercial products that GM might be using.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2011, 02:17:18 PM
Norma,

Sometime, just for fun, go to eHow and do a search on "pizza" and see what you get. Also, note all of the ads and their placement, wiki-like links, and also all of the references to other articles--all crammed into the space of a page--and how they collectively almost make it difficult to read the actual content of the article. You will always learn something. Otherwise, the site could not exist.

Out of curiosity, I did a Google Custom search on the eHow website using "pizzamaking.com" as a search term. I wanted to see if they refer users to other sites, including our forum. I got 199 hits. When I tightened up the search to leave out "pizza making" with a space between the two words, I got one hit. It was a Reference at the bottom of the page to a post by Randy back in 2004, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=711.0. They don't want you to wander off of the farm to places like our forum. If they did, people serious about their pizza making would never return to eHow on pizza related topics.

While you are at it, you might also do a "Bisquick" eHow search if you don't mind looking at 360 hits. If you do a "Bisquick homemade" search, you will get 142 hits.

Also, try a Google search using the terms pizza making, with or without quotes, and see what you get. That will show you the power of placement in Google searches.

When I do searches on pizza matters, I skip over the search results that turn up eHow, livestrong and other content farms (CookEatShare may not be a content farm as such but it is one that could drive me to drink). For other search topics, I might look at the content farms just to get an idea as to where else to search for what I am looking for.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 04:12:11 PM
Norma,

Sometime, just for fun, go to eHow and do a search on "pizza" and see what you get. Also, note all of the ads and their placement, wiki-like links, and also all of the references to other articles--all crammed into the space of a page--and how they collectively almost make it difficult to read the actual content of the article. You will always learn something. Otherwise, the site could not exist.

Out of curiosity, I did a Google Custom search on the eHow website using "pizzamaking.com" as a search term. I wanted to see if they refer users to other sites, including our forum. I got 199 hits. When I tightened up the search to leave out "pizza making" with a space between the two words, I got one hit. It was a Reference at the bottom of the page to a post by Randy back in 2004, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=711.0. They don't want you to wander off of the farm to places like our forum. If they did, people serious about their pizza making would never return to eHow on pizza related topics.

While you are at it, you might also do a "Bisquick" eHow search if you don't mind looking at 360 hits. If you do a "Bisquick homemade" search, you will get 142 hits.

Also, try a Google search using the terms pizza making, with or without quotes, and see what you get. That will show you the power of placement in Google searches.

When I do searches on pizza matters, I skip over the search results that turn up eHow, livestrong and other content farms (CookEatShare may not be a content farm as such but it is one that could drive me to drink). For other search topics, I might look at the content farms just to get an idea as to where else to search for what I am looking for.

Peter

Peter,

I have printed out your instructions on searching and will do that soon.  I just tried to search Norma’s Pizza, Norma’s Pizza Root’s Market, and Norma’s Pizza Root’s Market Lancaster, Pa.  I don’t know how I show up on the first two pages, but I think there is too much information about me on the web.  :o I am not even a pizza business with a website, but a small farmer’s market stand holder.  I wonder how all that information can be stopped. 

From your instructions, that will help me to search information better.  I know at times, I can keep searching and I sure don’t want the searching to drive me to drink.  Searching for information with all the true and untrue information on the web, can sometimes be hard.  I think I had a better handle on searching now.  Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 04:38:07 PM
Peter,

I was just putting things in Google and put in Norma on pizzamaking.com. and this is what I found on page 2 on Google.  I was interesting to see the results for inbound and outbound links to this forum. http://boardreader.com/domain/pizzamaking.com

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2011, 04:50:56 PM
Norma,

Since Bisquick is a dominant theme in this thread, I did a Google search using just the terms Norma and Bisquick. When the search turned up a lot of hits with the word "normal", I tightened up the search to exclude that word. The second hit in the search results after doing that was for the Sukie pizza that you posted over at Slice, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/05/my-pie-monday-20110509-slideshow.html#show-158878. I did not even know that you had posted a photo of the Sukie pizza there. I also see that a commenter asked for your recipe.

The more you reveal about yourself on the Internet, the harder it becomes to retreat. Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day may come where people find that they have to change their names legally to escape all the things they posted and said on the Internet.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 06:14:47 PM
Norma,

Since Bisquick is a dominant theme in this thread, I did a Google search using just the terms Norma and Bisquick. When the search turned up a lot of hits with the word "normal", I tightened up the search to exclude that word. The second hit in the search results after doing that was for the Sukie pizza that you posted over at Slice, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/05/my-pie-monday-20110509-slideshow.html#show-158878. I did not even know that you had posted a photo of the Sukie pizza there. I also see that a commenter asked for your recipe.

The more you reveal about yourself on the Internet, the harder it becomes to retreat. Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day may come where people find that they have to change their names legally to escape all the things they posted and said on the Internet.

Peter

Peter,

At least for me, when I put the words, norma’s bisquick pizza, the first entry is also the one I get at Slice.  I did email the Sukie pizza to MPM, and Rodzilla did ask me for the recipe for the crust, which I then linked to this thread.

I can understand now, the more that is revealed about yourself, the harder it is to retreat.  That is scarey that Eric Schmidt of Google once commented that the day will come that people will have to change their names legally.  I know the internet is a powerful tool for learning, but also is intimidating in some ways.

I guess it is time to try another mystery pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2011, 09:36:41 PM
I went to our local family run supermarket this evening, and while I was there I decided to look at the bread and other products that our local supermarket makes.  When I looked at the different breads and other baked products that they mix and bake, on some of the breads and other products, dextrose, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (soybean and cottonseed oils), and sodium aluminum phosphate were listed as the ingredients.  Although the bakery department wasn’t opened this evening, I talked to the ladies that were working at the deli department.  I asked them if they knew where the bakery department purchases their ingredients.  They said they weren’t sure, but took my phone number and said the bakery department will get back to me tomorrow, and they would tell me where they purchase those ingredients.  I then thought I wonder if they purchase those ingredients from Dutch Valley.  I looked on Dutch Valley product catalog and they do sell partially hydrogenated vegetable oil (soybean and cottonseed oils) http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/1387e298-c324-4811-ab48-ab96316871e3 and http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/5b536110-689f-410e-80cd-bbec68058378 The Nutrifacts are listed for both products. I am not sure if they are dry products or not.  
I am also now wondering whether the Red Star Angel Cream is anything like sodium aluminum phosphate. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/cdd7a1aa-0489-4e02-9922-eea53944cfc7 or if the double acting baking powder http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/45bfd3dc-b184-4577-ac93-92556dcf2950 is anything like what Bisquick might be using. They also have another double acting baking powder that is also aluminum free.

 
Dutch Valley also carries dextrose http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/1928717d-1f4c-40d3-bb74-24a8c7e52bae

Dutch Valley also carries a Pizza Dough mix, but it is in 50 lb. bags. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/food/ItemDetail.aspx/ItemID/91d67f0d-4c4a-4085-8f20-46cd4e2ffb53

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2011, 09:36:28 AM
Norma,

There are a couple of supermarkets near me that have in-store baking facilities but just about all of the products they bake come from commissaries somewhere. I don't know if that is the case with the supermarket you mentioned. However, someone must be supplying the basic ingredients. Maybe you can get a few names of bakery ingredients suppliers.

The two partially hydrogenated oil products you noted at Dutch Valley seem to have lipid profiles (total fat and saturated fat and trans fat) that mirror what General Mills appears to be using (based on their Nutrition Facts) but they are specifically stated to be for icings. When I researched partially hydrogenated oils at the SelfNutritionData website, I found many such products tied to specific applications, like frying, icing, cooking, tortillas, etc. I did not see any application that was directed to mixes. I would think that you would want to test something for that particular application. If you get deeper into this aspect, you might find what the options are.

The Red Star Angel Cream and the double-acting baking powders that you spotted at Dutch Valley are not the same as what General Mills is using as a leavening agent. GM is using a specific combination of baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP), and monocalcium phosphate. When I did my searching early on, I could not find that combination as a standalone product. Maybe the GM leavening agent is formulated specifically for GM. I would think that the companies that make baking powders would be able to do something like that. Maybe they already do. However, I was not able to fnd that product.

The dextrose available from Dutch Valley seems to be the right product.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2011, 10:11:49 AM
Peter,

Thanks for your help in going over the ingredients from Dutch Valley to see if they would compare to the ingredients GM uses.  I never heard of SALP.  Maybe the SALP product is specially formulated for GM.  It’s good to know that at least the dextrose that Dutch Valley carries seems to be right.  

I talked to the bakery manager, this morning, at our local family owned store about the ingredients I was looking for and the bakery manager told me they get frozen doughs to make their bread from ATW
I did contact ATW by using the contact page for their company. http://www.atvbakery.com/ to see if I can get more information on where they purchase their ingredients.

I also called Lentz and the customer service lady said they don’t carry any soybean or cottonseed oil in dried forms.  She then gave me the phone numbers of   http://www.centralsoya.com/ and I looked at their website and I don’t think they would have the kind of oil I am looking for.  The customer service lady also gave me another company that might be carrying the kind of oil I am looking for.  It is called Bunge.  I have contacted them on their contact page.  These are the kinds of oil Bunge carries.  http://www.bungenorthamerica.com/products/bunge-oils/usa/non-food/index.shtml

I don’t have any more time today, to do more calling, but will work on finding the ingredients or maybe samples later on this week, that GM might be using.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2011, 02:58:00 PM
Norma,

I know that you already know a lot about chemical leavening systems, but if you are going to be looking for commercial sources of such chemical leavening systems, you mind find it helpful to have a more detailed understanding of the specific chemical leavening systems used in the General Mills/Betty Crocker mixes. So I will give you a little lesson in the chemistry of chemical leavening systems, both generally and in the specific GM context.

All of the GM mixes we have researched and you have used in the course of this thread use a double-acting baking powder. A double-acting baking powder has essentially three active components--a base and two acids. The base component is typically baking soda (bicarbonate of soda). There are other possible candidates for the base component, such as some non-sodium base components, but in the great majority of the cases, the base component is baking soda. In the presence of a liquid, the baking soda acts with the acids to produce carbon dioxide (plus water). It is this carbon dioxide that causes the mixture and final product to rise. In the case of the two acids, one is selected to work quickly with the baking soda, typically at room temperature, and the other acid is selected to work at high temperatures, as during the cooking or baking of the final product. Having both types of acids means that you don't have to rush to make the final product. For example, if you had only one acid and it was fast acting, you would have to work quickly to make the product in question before the leavening power is depleted or materially reduced. Baking powders that include a base and only one acid are called "single-acting" baking powders. These have largely been supplanted by double-acting baking powders. Also, many aluminum-based baking powders (but not the ones used by GM) have been replaced by baking powders without any aluminum.

All of the GM mixes have a leavening system that comprises baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate, and monocalcium phosphate. The monocalcium phosphate is the fast-acting acid and the sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) is the slow-acting acid. The amounts of the chemical leavening system in the mixes and the amounts of the three components of the chemical leavening systems are established based on the types of products to be made with the mixes. For example, the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix is intended to be used to make a wide variety of end products, including pancakes, waffles, shortcake, crusts, biscuits, and so on. Consequently, the chemical leavening system in that mix has to be able to lift the final product, no matter what it is, once a liquid (e.g., water or milk) and other ingredients are added (eggs, for example). In some cases, the user has to add more baking powder, for example, to get super puffy pancakes, or more baking soda, for example, if buttermilk, which is an acidic ingredient (called an acidulant), is added to the mixture and, as a result, increased the acidity of the mixture. I am sure that the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (with buttermilk powder) adjusts the amount of its chemical leavening system, and possibly the individual components, to make it unnecessary for the end user to add more baking powder.

On of the things that I wondered was whether GM uses an encapsulated leavening system. To answer this question, I called The Wright Group and spoke with one of its technical personnel. The Wright Group is a producer of a product called WRISE that is a combination of baking soda and SALP. The encapsulation medium is palm oil. The encapsulation serve to prevent the SALP from acting with the baking soda until baking, not before. This makes the WRISE product especially useful for take-and-bake doughs where consumers often ignore or don't follow or disabuse instructions for storing and using the take-and-bake pizza. In cases like this, the yeast can stop working. The WRISE insures that there is a rise in the pizza once baking commences, even if the yeast is gone or comatose. The person I spoke with at The Wright Group told me that he does not believe that GM uses encapsulation of its leavening system. When I asked him why he felt this was so, he said it was cost. I asked him if he thought it was likely that GM is using cornstarch in its chemical leavening systems, and he answered that he thought that such is the case. This is quite common, and if you look at your Clabber Girl ingredients list, I think you will see cornstarch as one of its ingredients. The cornstarch is used to keep the base and acids from starting to work prematurely, that is, before an end user uses the mix to make something. I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids.

You can read more about the WRISE product at http://www.thewrightgroup.net/images/stories/pdf/wrise/wrise_101595.pdf. I was told that WRISE would work for the type of pizza mix application you are considering but I suspect that you would have to add a fast-acting acid. I would rather have you find a source of a chemical leavening system that is like the one used by GM. You can also read more about specific elements of chemical leavening systems at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm.

Peter

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2011, 06:11:13 PM
Peter,

Thanks for taking the time for the chemistry lesson about commercial sources of leavening systems, so I can understand more how they work.  I do now understand what makes those kinds of chemical leavening systems work. 

It’s good you did your detective work and called the Wright group.  That seems to eliminate GM from using an encapsulated leavening system, because of cost.  I do see the cornstarch listed as one of the ingredients on the Clabber Girl Double Acting baking powder.  I wonder if GM does used cornstarch in their mixes why they don’t have to list cornstarch as one of the ingredients.  Maybe it has to do with having such a small amount that it doesn’t need to be listed.  I can understand the cornstarch could be the buffering agent, so the base and acid wouldn’t work prematurely.

I would rather find a chemical leavening system like GM uses.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 23, 2011, 09:20:49 PM
Norma,

If you do a Google search using the search terms "sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate" (in quotes as shown), you will find a fairly wide variety of applications of that leavening system, including many directed to chicken breadings and pancake and similar mixes. This leads me to believe that there are companies out there somewhere that must be selling such a leavening system, either alone or with cornstarch.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2011, 10:15:24 PM
Norma,

If you do a Google search using the search terms "sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate" (in quotes as shown), you will find a fairly wide variety of applications of that leavening system, including many directed to chicken breadings and pancake and similar mixes. This leads me to believe that there are companies out there somewhere that must be selling such a leavening system, either alone or with cornstarch.

Peter

Peter,

I did Google "sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate" with the quotes and then also added more words and came up with many like this and others. Maybe I need to start contacting chicken manufactures or Mc Donald’s about their Buttermilk biscuits.   :-D http://www.mcdonalds.ca/pdfs/IngredientFactsEN.pdf  Maybe I also should contact Tyson Foods. There are near me.  

You are right, there are many kinds of foods that do have those ingredients.  Somehow I guess we will track down where they purchase those ingredients.  This mystery pizza is getting more involved all the time.   8)

When I have more time later this week, I will search more.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2011, 11:04:33 PM
I just received this email from Edna at Caravan Foods.  She is trying to help me find the kind of shortening that might be used in a pizza mix.  I don’t have time to look up these companies are what products they are, but will look them up later this week.

Hello Norma – I asked a few people for R&D regarding Spray Dried Shortening and this was the reply.  They felt a spray shortening would not blend well in a mix but some of the specialty oil companies will carry some lower melting point beaded product that would deliver better results.  Loders Croklaan carries a product called Kaorich which may be what she is looking for and Stratas Foods may have a similar product as well. I sure hope this help – Thank you.

I wonder if Edna can help me find the ingredients of sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum phosphate, monocalcium phosphate.  

Some products Edna told me about.

 Kaorich http://northamerica.croklaan.com/System/Product.asp?action=ProductNameCategory&actionValue=Stearine%20-%20Structuring%20Fats&productID=tcm:40-5593

http://www.stratasfoods.com/defaultFoodIngredients.aspx

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2011, 11:02:05 AM
Norma,

This morning, I called the foodservice section of the Clabber Girl Corporation in Terre Haute, Indiana (812-232-9446) and spoke with a sales person (Eric) about their commercial chemical leavening systems. What I was hoping to learn is whether Clabber Girl makes the specific chemical leavening system consisting only of the baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP). The answer is no. However, Clabber Girl does make and sell each of those ingredients separately. The end user would have to devise the formulation (percentages of ingredients) and do the blending. I also learned a few more things about these ingredients. One is that even for the slow-acting acids there is some activity during the mixing (e.g., batter) stage. The percent activity will depend on the particular acid selected. Apparently, both the fast-acting and slow-acting acids can be selected to achieve a particular chemical activation profile to meet the particular needs of the end user, whether it is a pancake mix or a pizza crust mix. There can even be some encapsulation of ingredients, including the baking soda, to suit a particular end user application.

With respect to the use of cornstarch, I was told that it has to be listed as an ingredient if is used. However, if the chemical leavening system is used with flour, as is the case with the GM products we have been studying, the flour itself can act as a buffer to prevent or minimize premature chemical activity.

When I asked whether the retail version of the Clabber Girl baking powder would work for a premix application as you have been exploring, I was told that it perhaps would work but it would not be optimum in his opinion. He said that he was not a food scientist so he couldn't tell me what would be the optimum chemical leavening system. We would have to talk with a Clabber Girl food scientist.

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2011, 11:33:50 AM
Norma,

I found another company, called GCIngredients, that also is in the commercial chemical leavening business. So, I called their San Antonio office at 210-240-2657 and spoke with Ingrid (http://www.gcingredients.com/contactus.html). From both Ingrid and the GCI website, I learned that GCI is in the business of creating and blending chemical leavening systems. So, if you decide to do more experimentation with chemical leavening systems, GCI might be an option for you to consider. Ingrid pointed out to me that the kind of experiments you are doing usually require a fair amount of trial and error to get to the desired end objective.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 24, 2011, 11:48:12 AM
Norma,

As you know, one of the things that has been nagging me is whether it is permissible in ingredients lists to list sugar when the actual sugar form is dextrose. So, over the past weekend, I sent an email to the Food and Drug Administration posing the following question:

In food ingredients lists, is it permissible to use the term "sugar" in lieu of "dextrose", or must the term "dextrose" be used if the sugar form is actually dextrose?

Today, I received the following reply:

Dear Peter, no.  Sugar has a standard in the regulations under 21 CFR 101.4 For purposes of ingredient labeling, the term sugar shall refer to sucrose, which is obtained from sugar cane or sugar beets in accordance with the provisions of 184.1854 of this chapter.

So, absent error or intentional misleading of the public, if "sugar" is listed as an ingredient in a list of ingredients, it means sucrose (ordinary table sugar is sucrose).

I'm glad I tried the approach of sending an email to the FDA. In the past, I would search for hours trying to find things at the FDA website, often without success (even though I learned a lot from all of my reading while trying to find things). I may use this approach again if I can't find answers on my own after giving my searches a fair chance.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 07:56:06 AM
Peter,

I will reply to your above posts, when I have time to digest all you have researched. 

Norma

There was another Mystery Pizza made yesterday at market by Steve and me that did turn out successful.  It was made using Betty Crocker Banana Nut mix, in combination with Peter’s goody bag.  I used 20 grams less water in the mix.  The dressing for this Sukie pizza was orange marmalade.  After the bake, (additional dressings) the blueberries, strawberries, bananas, and chopped English walnuts were added.  The fruits were dusted with Fruit Fresh to keep the bananas from browning, while sitting at room temperature. The crumb of this Sukie pizza was very moist and light.  This Sukie pizza was made within 3 hrs. from start to finish.

In my opinion, Sukie would have been proud of this pizza.  :) Steve, other stand holders, a few customers and I enjoyed this dessert Sukie pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 07:58:42 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 08:01:16 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 08:03:53 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 08:05:58 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 08:10:48 AM
I did get a reply from Laura at Abitec yesterday.  This is the email.

Hello Norma,
 
Your sample request was sent to me as I lead the Food, Flavor and Nutrition business at Abitec.
 
With regard to the best product for your application in a dry mix, the Sterotex products are best.  They are a very fine powder and would blend easily into a dry blend and stay in suspension.
 
As far as which one, it will depend on the other ingredients, when you want the oil to melt, baking conditions, etc.  The different products are formulated to have different melt points.
 
For example,   Sterotex HM melts b/w 153-156F, while Sterotex K melts b/w 178-183F.
 
The best thing to do would be to get samples of both and try them in your formula.
 
If this is agreeable, I will be happy to submit a sample request and have 8oz of each shipped.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 10:59:03 AM
I replied to Laura at Abitec this morning: This was my reply and then Laura’s reply back to me.

Hello Laura,
 
Thanks you for recommending what the best product would be for the application I am trying in a dry mix.  When I was experimenting with different pizza crust mixes and other baking mixes to see where my experiments would lead me, I had tried some General Mills products, such as their Original Bisquick, muffin mixes, and biscuit mixes, among others.  I wanted to ask you if you know what kind of product they might use in their various products?  I used some of the GM products I mentioned, in combination with other ingredients, and from those experiments did produce a good pizza crust mix.  Would a big company like GM be using something like the products you were telling me about in your email, in their mixes? 
 
I would appreciate if you would request samples of Sterotex HM and Sterotex K for me to try in the pizza crust mix. 
 
I am not sure when I want the oil to melt.  (at what temperatures)

Norma

Hi Norma,
 
Yes, large baking companies do use these types of products so they should work in your mix,
 
I will have 8 oz samples of both products sent to you.
 
Good luck with your formulas!

Laura

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 06:38:11 PM
Norma,

This morning, I called the foodservice section of the Clabber Girl Corporation in Terre Haute, Indiana (812-232-9446) and spoke with a sales person (Eric) about their commercial chemical leavening systems. What I was hoping to learn is whether Clabber Girl makes the specific chemical leavening system consisting only of the baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP). The answer is no. However, Clabber Girl does make and sell each of those ingredients separately. The end user would have to devise the formulation (percentages of ingredients) and do the blending. I also learned a few more things about these ingredients. One is that even for the slow-acting acids there is some activity during the mixing (e.g., batter) stage. The percent activity will depend on the particular acid selected. Apparently, both the fast-acting and slow-acting acids can be selected to achieve a particular chemical activation profile to meet the particular needs of the end user, whether it is a pancake mix or a pizza crust mix. There can even be some encapsulation of ingredients, including the baking soda, to suit a particular end user application.

With respect to the use of cornstarch, I was told that it has to be listed as an ingredient if is used. However, if the chemical leavening system is used with flour, as is the case with the GM products we have been studying, the flour itself can act as a buffer to prevent or minimize premature chemical activity.

When I asked whether the retail version of the Clabber Girl baking powder would work for a premix application as you have been exploring, I was told that it perhaps would work but it would not be optimum in his opinion. He said that he was not a food scientist so he couldn't tell me what would be the optimum chemical leavening system. We would have to talk with a Clabber Girl food scientist.

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter
Norma,

I found another company, called GCIngredients, that also is in the commercial chemical leavening business. So, I called their San Antonio office at 210-240-2657 and spoke with Ingrid (http://www.gcingredients.com/contactus.html). From both Ingrid and the GCI website, I learned that GCI is in the business of creating and blending chemical leavening systems. So, if you decide to do more experimentation with chemical leavening systems, GCI might be an option for you to consider. Ingrid pointed out to me that the kind of experiments you are doing usually require a fair amount of trial and error to get to the desired end objective.

Peter
Norma,

As you know, one of the things that has been nagging me is whether it is permissible in ingredients lists to list sugar when the actual sugar form is dextrose. So, over the past weekend, I sent an email to the Food and Drug Administration posing the following question:

In food ingredients lists, is it permissible to use the term "sugar" in lieu of "dextrose", or must the term "dextrose" be used if the sugar form is actually dextrose?

Today, I received the following reply:

Dear Peter, no.  Sugar has a standard in the regulations under 21 CFR 101.4 For purposes of ingredient labeling, the term sugar shall refer to sucrose, which is obtained from sugar cane or sugar beets in accordance with the provisions of 184.1854 of this chapter.

So, absent error or intentional misleading of the public, if "sugar" is listed as an ingredient in a list of ingredients, it means sucrose (ordinary table sugar is sucrose).

I'm glad I tried the approach of sending an email to the FDA. In the past, I would search for hours trying to find things at the FDA website, often without success (even though I learned a lot from all of my reading while trying to find things). I may use this approach again if I can't find answers on my own after giving my searches a fair chance.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing all the research on the Clabber Girl chemical leavening systems. It is interesting to hear that Clabber Girl does sell each of the ingredients separately. I wonder how the end user (like I am trying to do in a pizza mix) would know how much of each ingredient to use in the mix, by percents.  It is also interesting to hear you learned more about the ingredients and how the percent of activity will depend on what ingredients are used.  I wonder how I am ever going to be able to figure out what presents of each ingredient to try in a pizza mix.  I wonder if GM is using some kind of encapsulation of ingredients.   It is also interesting to hear that cornstarch must be listed in the ingredients if it is used.  Flour alone, must be a good buffer from what you learned.  I wonder how I would talk to a Clabber Girl food scientist.  I am not that well versed in stating everything correctly, but I could give it a try.  I will contact Clabber Girl for samples and also for more knowledge about their ingredients they sell.

Thanks for also finding and researching about  GC Ingredients, Inc.  I will also contact them to see if I can purchase small amounts for testing or get some samples.

I do know that the one thing that have been bugging you so far, was if it was permissible to use actual sugar when the ingredient listed was dextrose.  Good thinking on your part to think about emailing the FDA.  8) That saved you a lot of time, and you received a timely reply.  You just never know where searches will take you. 

Norma

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2011, 10:05:47 AM
Norma,

Those are all good questions. Knowing what I know about what you have been doing, if you were to talk to the food scientist at Clabber Girl (his name is Pat Jobe, at [email protected]), or an expert at any other place for that matter, I think that there would be several questions he or she would ask you, from which he or she might be able to offer you technical assistance.

First, I think the food scientist (or other expert) would want to know what you want, or are trying, to do. In your case, I believe that you would like to come up with a pizza crust mix based on a formulation of your own design (or with help from someone else) and doing all of your own blending and mixing without using "goody bags" and the like combined with commercial products. Given your success to date using the General Mills mixes for different types of products, all of which contain a specific chemical leavening system, you might even want to use the same chemical leavening system in your own formulation.

Second, the food scientist would want to know when the dough is to be used, that is, whether it is to be used soon or considerably later. There might also be other questions as to other ingredients to be used in the formulation, such as yeast (which can affect fermentation performance and time) and acidulants like buttermilk powder that can affect the balance of the ingredients used in the overall chemical leavening system. These questions are important since the answers can dictate the types of acids to use and their performance rates (e.g., slow-acting or fast-acting) and also how the specific ingredients are to be balanced to neutralize the alkaline component (the baking soda) and avoid off flavors because of an imbalance. You can see an example of a chemical leavening system from a baker's percent standpoint at the bottom of the page at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm. The duration of use of the dough might also dictate the percent of the chemical leavening system to use (although that is something that might best be determined through testing).

In your case, you have been making doughs with fermentation periods of a few hours. Just about every pizza crust mix that I have studied is intended to be made and used within a period of minutes, not hours, and their formulations are designed with this in mind, as by using L-cysteine, dextrose, etc. This presents an important decision point for you since the duration of use of the dough can define the market. For example, consumers have been conditioned to making pizza doughs from mixes in a matter of minutes. They may not be interested in waiting up to four hours to make their pizza, no matter how much better the pizza might be. I suspect that the consumer market for the short-term mixes is considerably larger than the market for the long-term mixes (which is perhaps more in the province of large chains like Shakey's, Round Table and Godfather's Pizza that use pizza dough pre-mixes). Of course, it might be possible to have two formulations to cover both markets. Or you might decide to develop and use a dough formulation strictly for your own purposes to offer unique products at market (like some of your dessert style pizzas), rather than marketing it to consumers, in which case you would have complete control over the way the product is used. In such a case, any dicussion of market segmentation becomes moot.

I think you have a good enough grasp of the basic chemistry involved to be able to hold your own in discussion with the food scientists and other specialists engaged in chemical leavening systems. They also know that most end users of their products are not chemists. However, as comfortable as you may become with technical aspects of leavening systems, in discussions with professionals on this matter you will want to be prepared to answer questions that might relate as much to the business side of what you would like to do as the chemistry involved since the answers can dictate the course of your formulation. There will also be a fair amount of testing and experimentation with formulations and preparation times. I also believe that you will find that food scientists knowledgeable about specific parts of a formulation, such as the chemical leavening system under discussion or partially hydrogenated oils to use in a mix, aren't likely to be able to develop an overall formulation for you to use. They might, however, give you some insights in how GM and others develop their formulations or parts of them.  

With respect to your question as to whether cornstarch is used by GM in its chemical leavening system, my best guess after discussing these matters with the people I spoke with recently, is no.

For a good discussion on some of the topics mentioned above, see http://gcingredients.com/leavening.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 26, 2011, 11:48:04 AM
It is also interesting to hear that cornstarch must be listed in the ingredients if it is used. 

It is an allergen.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 02:08:34 PM
Norma,

Those are all good questions. Knowing what I know about what you have been doing, if you were to talk to the food scientist at Clabber Girl (his name is Pat Jobe, at [email protected]), or an expert at any other place for that matter, I think that there would be several questions he or she would ask you, from which he or she might be able to offer you technical assistance.

First, I think the food scientist (or other expert) would want to know what you want, or are trying, to do. In your case, I believe that you would like to come up with a pizza crust mix based on a formulation of your own design (or with help from someone else) and doing all of your own blending and mixing without using "goody bags" and the like combined with commercial products. Given your success to date using the General Mills mixes for different types of products, all of which contain a specific chemical leavening system, you might even want to use the same chemical leavening system in your own formulation.

Second, the food scientist would want to know when the dough is to be used, that is, whether it is to be used soon or considerably later. There might also be other questions as to other ingredients to be used in the formulation, such as yeast (which can affect fermentation performance and time) and acidulants like buttermilk powder that can affect the balance of the ingredients used in the overall chemical leavening system. These questions are important since the answers can dictate the types of acids to use and their performance rates (e.g., slow-acting or fast-acting) and also how the specific ingredients are to be balanced to neutralize the alkaline component (the baking soda) and avoid off flavors because of an imbalance. You can see an example of a chemical leavening system from a baker's percent standpoint at the bottom of the page at http://dwb.unl.edu/Teacher/NSF/C12/C12Links/www.cosmocel.com.mx/english/c-leave.htm. The duration of use of the dough might also dictate the percent of the chemical leavening system to use (although that is something that might best be determined through testing).

In your case, you have been making doughs with fermentation periods of a few hours. Just about every pizza crust mix that I have studied is intended to be made and used within a period of minutes, not hours, and their formulations are designed with this in mind, as by using L-cysteine, dextrose, etc. This presents an important decision point for you since the duration of use of the dough can define the market. For example, consumers have been conditioned to making pizza doughs from mixes in a matter of minutes. They may not be interested in waiting up to four hours to make their pizza, no matter how much better the pizza might be. I suspect that the consumer market for the short-term mixes is considerably larger than the market for the long-term mixes (which is perhaps more in the province of large chains like Shakey's, Round Table and Godfather's Pizza that use pizza dough pre-mixes). Of course, it might be possible to have two formulations to cover both markets. Or you might decide to develop and use a dough formulation strictly for your own purposes to offer unique products at market (like some of your dessert style pizzas), rather than marketing it to consumers, in which case you would have complete control over the way the product is used. In such a case, any dicussion of market segmentation becomes moot.

I think you have a good enough grasp of the basic chemistry involved to be able to hold your own in discussion with the food scientists and other specialists engaged in chemical leavening systems. They also know that most end users of their products are not chemists. However, as comfortable as you may become with technical aspects of leavening systems, in discussions with professionals on this matter you will want to be prepared to answer questions that might relate as much to the business side of what you would like to do as the chemistry involved since the answers can dictate the course of your formulation. There will also be a fair amount of testing and experimentation with formulations and preparation times. I also believe that you will find that food scientists knowledgeable about specific parts of a formulation, such as the chemical leavening system under discussion or partially hydrogenated oils to use in a mix, aren't likely to be able to develop an overall formulation for you to use. They might, however, give you some insights in how GM and others develop their formulations or parts of them.  

With respect to your question as to whether cornstarch is used by GM in its chemical leavening system, my best guess after discussing these matters with the people I spoke with recently, is no.

For a good discussion on some of the topics mentioned above, see http://gcingredients.com/leavening.html.

Peter

Peter,

I did email Clabber Girl about trying to formulate a pizza crust mix last evening, and I did ask them many questions.  If I don’t get a follow-up email, I will call them and asked to talk to an expert or food scientist, probably next week.  I also asked for samples of their baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate (SALP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP).  I also emailed Ingrid at GCIngredients and asked her the same questions, and also if I could obtain samples to try in the pizza crust mix, I would like to try to develop. 

I did get an email from  Laura at Abitec, that I should get samples of Sterotex products in the next 10-14 days.

I do want to try to come up with a pizza crust mix without a “goody bag”. I would like to do all my own blending and mixing.  The leavening system in the Betty Crocker products in combination with your “goody bag”, seems to work out well, so I can understand that would be a good place to start.  I see in the link you have provided the baker’s percent for a typical mix are: A typical double action baking powder may have 12 % of MONOCALCIUM PHOSPHATE, 30 % of Sodium Bicarbonate, 23 % of Sodium Aluminum Sulfate, 35 % of Corn Starch.  That would be without the cornstarch.

Thanks for preparing me to know what to ask about what I am trying to do, in formulating a pizza crust mix. I will get my questions ready and think about what I should ask.  I don’t really understand chemistry, but basically do understand the technical basic chemistry and what I would want to ask and find answers to.  Making different pizzas have taught me more about leavening systems, but a pizza crust mix would be a lot different.

I can understand most home pizza makers  would want to make the dough fast, and not watch it like I did in my experiments.  Everything is instant now, so I would need to come up with some kind of formulation to make the pizza crust mix fast, just like the Betty Crocker pizza crust mix, but hopefully it would be better.  I know this whole project will take a lot of trial and experimenting, but at least I will learn more about using a different kind of leavening system for a pizza crust mix.  In the end, I don’t know if I will be successful or not, but there isn’t hurt in trying.

It is a little to early to know if I want to make dessert pizzas at market, but so far, the stand holders, some customers, Steve and I really do like them.  That would be a whole different ball game, because then I would need to source more ingredients and understand how they would work in a pizza crust mix.  The mixes I just purchased the other day were only .85 on sale, so I might purchase some more this week, to try in more experiments.  If I decide I wanted to make dessert pizzas at market, I still could buy a box of those mixes and just add the “goody bag”.  At least that would make a dessert pizza a lot easier, and the crust shouldn't be too expensive.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 02:10:20 PM
It is an allergen.

CL

Craig,

I didn't know if cornstarch was an allergen or not, but it looks like it is.  http://allergies.about.com/od/foodallergies/a/cornallergy.htm

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2011, 03:59:43 PM
Norma,

With all of the samples you now have and will be getting, you might find it more profitable to divide the samples into small packets and sell them at market instead of pizza. Just make one pizza a day on Tuesdays at market and use that as a basis to keep ordering up more and more samples.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 06:19:41 PM
Norma,

With all of the samples you now have and will be getting, you might find it more profitable to divide the samples into small packets and sell them at market instead of pizza. Just make one pizza a day on Tuesdays at market and use that as a basis to keep ordering up more and more samples.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, who would buy the samples and then buy their own other ingredients, to make their own pizzas?  :-D At least my customers want a ready to eat freshly made pizza.  I did try to sell cans of 6 in 1 and not one person bought any.  I still didn’t develop a successful take and bake pizza. I posted before, I am running out of room to store all my flours, other ingredients, and now all the samples

I did talk to Nita, an R&D specialist today, at Clabber Girl and I will post on that later, but from what she told me Clabber Girl doesn’t send any samples of any of the ingredients they use for Clabber Girl, or the other products they sell.  Nita said, Clabber Girl gets all their ingredients from mills and then mixes them. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 08:56:56 PM
I posted in my last post that I talked to Nita, the R&D manager of Clabber Girl today.  I asked many of the questions that Peter had posted.  It seems like there is a lot of variances in trying to make any kind of formula for a pizza crust mix.  She said  pH of ingredients has to do with formulation, buttermilk will strengthen the protein (and if you want a buttermilk profile in the crust that is something that could be tried), and if the mix is too acidic it would need modifications.  She said it is challenging to develop a product like a pizza crust mix and get it to perform like you want it to.  I also asked Nita, about what type of flour to try in the mix and she said probably cake flour would be a good starting point.  I asked her if cake flour (something like GM might be using in their mixes), in combination with something like KABF might work.  I told her probably the protein content would be around 10.7, or something similar, and she said it could work.  We talked about many other things, but basically, it is all up to how you use the ingredients, in amounts, how your product might turn out.  She also said I could call her anytime with further question I might have.

I found a article about baking powder in this book of bakery technology and engineering.

http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&pg=PA71#v=onepage&q&f=false

On page 71 there is a chart of three baking powders used in a batter, that shows the reaction rates of these thre types of baking powder, as tested in a simple batter.

Starting on page 64 of the link below, it reads about chemical leavening systems with leavening acids starting on page 67 with a chart on page 70

http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false

This article reads about leavening applications of ICL Food Phosphates.  ICL performance Products LP.

http://www.icl-perfproductslp.com/mm/files/ICL_Bakery.pdf

Another guide for chemical leaveners.

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_12CHEM.PDF

Typical neutralizing values for the most common food leavening agents can be seen in the following table.

http://www.classofoods.com/page4_2.html

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2011, 09:52:35 PM
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 10:36:25 PM
Norma,

Those are good research materials. I saw some of them when I did my research but did not wish to inundate you with them because of their highly technical nature. I wanted you to peel back only the first few layers of the onion, not all of the layers. When I spoke with the person at The Wright Group, he gave me contact information for ICL Performance, Clabber Girl Corporation and Innophos (http://www.innophos.com/). I started with Clabber Girl because you have been using their retail baking powder and thought that their foodservice division might be a useful source of information and possibly samples.

Did you feel comfortable with your discussion with Nita?

Peter

Peter,

I did feel comfortable talking with Nita.  She was very helpful in every question I had to ask her, but really doesn’t have any ideas or suggestions on how to formulate a pizza crust mix.  I guess it is basically try something out, maybe along the lines of Nita’s suggestions of using cake flour and the KABF I have been using, in combination. Since Clabber Girl has been working in the experiments I did do, I can do some other experiments with it.  It was surprised that Clabber Girl didn’t give samples of the separate ingredients, but I guess because they only mix the ingredients to their specifications, that would be the reason. I might also contact Pat Jobe, the food scientist at Clabber Girl in the next week. I can also contact ICL Performance and Innophos in the next week and see what they have to say.  

I like to read though technical information, but might not always understand everything the first time I read it, but some of it is very informative.  I like to see ways different leavening systems can be used and what the results might be.  
                  
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2011, 10:41:57 PM
Norma,

When I called Clabber Girl and was referred to Eric in sales, I came away with the distinct impression that Clabber Girl would provide samples of their ingredients. Since he is in sales, he may be more familiar with sales of their blended products rather than standalone ingredients.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 11:02:03 PM
Norma,

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza crust premix experiments, I was told that you should have no problem getting samples of the three leavening ingredients from Clabber Girl.

Peter

Peter,

When I talked to Nita, I had remembered what you posted about not having problems with getting samples at Reply 222 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140304.html#msg140304

That is why I wondered why I couldn’t obtain any samples to try.  Maybe I should try to contact sales and see if I can obtain any samples.  I wonder if they provide samples of the separate ingredients or just the Clabber Girl baking powder.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2011, 04:44:59 PM
I tried to contact Pat Jobe by phone this morning, but I had to leave a message on his voice mail.  I also tried to write an email, explaining everything I wanted to ask Pat, but the email kept coming back returned mail.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 27, 2011, 09:28:50 PM
Norma,

I decided to go back and re-read the various documents we found on chemical leavening systems to further solidify my understanding of such systems. I then decided to look at the chemical leavening systems used by General Mills in the Betty Crocker and Bisquick products that you experimented with to see if I could divine the logic used in those leavening systems. Here is the summary of the chemical leavening systems used in those products:

Pouch Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix: sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP) and baking soda (this is a single-acting leavening system); there is also yeast in the mix.

Pouch Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Bisquick Cheese-Garlic Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Box Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Banana Nut Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system)
.

What I concluded from the above pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems is that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and the product is to go into the oven promptly, there is no need to use a fast-acting acid. A slow-acting acid (in a single-acting context) will suffice. The production of carbon dioxide will occur during baking. If there is to be an initial mix and some bench time, or if it will take more than just a few minutes to prepare the final product using the mix, then using a double-acting leavening system seems to make sense.

In your case, with your experiments using the mixes with "goody bags", you inherited the chemical leavening systems used in the various General Mills mixes. Those leavening systems make sense for a dough that is going to ferment for several hours, much as it does for a biscuit mix that typically takes about 15 minutes to turn into biscuits. One of the things that I also learned is if a double-acting leavening system is used, there will be some initial production of carbon dioxide due to the fast-acting acid but it will cease (level off) after only a few minutes and will thereafter resume carbon dioxide production once the product in question is baked. If you were to decide that you want to make a really fast pizza dough within say, five minutes, you would perhaps go with a combination of SALP and baking soda. You wouldn't use the fast-acting acid (see more on this below). Alternatively, if you were to decide that a pizza dough that can be made within say, 15 minutes or more, is what you are after, then I think you would go with the baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate. I believe that you could use a leavening system using sodium aluminum sulfate (aka SAS) instead of SALP, as is the case with the Clabber Girl retail baking powder. I think that the SALP may be a better choice for your purposes because it apparently works more slowly than SAS. The final answer on this would depend on the desired mix, bench and fermentation times.

For your additional information, I believe that the Clapper Girl baking powder you have been using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No. 1 as presented at page 72 of the article at http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false. (http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false.) I can't tell you the actual percents of the three components--only that the pecking order of the Clapper Girl baking powder is the same as the Double Acting Formula No. 1.

I don't think that you have to rush to make decisions on how to proceed in the short term. You might want to await the results of a dough formulation that tries to mimic the combination of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix that produced the Sukie pizza that you liked so much. I feel comfortable about how you might proceed once you get the various samples of chemical leavening ingredients. I think I have the math part under control also, although I have not yet put pencil to paper to come up with numbers. Using the neutralizing values (NVs), which is the math part, is considered to be a starting point. This means that some experimentation is likely to be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.

I should also mention that all of the pizza mixes that were set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206) use some combination of SALP and baking soda--but no fast-acting acid like monocalcium phosphate. That seems to be pretty much standard operating procedure for such mixes. All of those mixes also use yeast. The only pizza crust mixes that I am aware of that do not use any chemical leavening system is the Weisenberger pizza crust mix (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903)) and the Eagle Mills mix (Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231)). I have not conducted an exhaustive search for all pizza crust mixes so there may be other examples.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 27, 2011, 10:42:23 PM
Norma,

As I was putting together my last reply, I came upon a discrepancy in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 and that which is given for that mix at the General Mills/Betty Crocker website itself. The difference is as to the flour. As you will note from the photo below, the flour for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as given at the GM/Betty Crocker website includes a first flour that is unmalted and, by its omission, presumably unbleached, and a second flour that is bleached and malted. I have to believe that GM is using its own flours in its mixes. This led me to look for an unmalted, unbleached flour at the GM flours website. Such a combination would not be very common inasmuch as most of the GM flours are malted. As you know, we had been operating on the premise that the flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was a bleached cake flour, which led us to elect bread flour to raise its protein content to get it into the pizza dough range.

The only GM flour that I could find that is both unmalted and unbleached is the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour, as described at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc. You might recall that I raised the possibility in Reply 206 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140111.html#msg140111 that the flour used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was "either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%". The Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour has a protein content of 9.5% +/-0.6%. It's hard to say whether that is the flour that is used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix but the Sureflake flour was the only flour that I could find at the GM flour website that is both unmalted and unbleached.

The second flour mentioned above can be almost anything. A bleached and malted flour is extremely common. But, if I had to guess, I would say that the second flour is either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour. But, either way, the predominant flour is the unmalted and unbleached flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on May 27, 2011, 10:56:30 PM
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 27, 2011, 11:05:51 PM
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D

Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on May 27, 2011, 11:44:54 PM
Bill,

This may sound strange but when you talk to the experts in the field this is the level of the conversations. They go even deeper into the chemistry than what I have given.

Peter

I can only imagine!
 ;D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 12:10:05 AM
Norma,

As I was putting together my last reply, I came upon a discrepancy in the ingredients list for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 and that which is given for that mix at the General Mills/Betty Crocker website itself. The difference is as to the flour. As you will note from the photo below, the flour for the Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix as given at the GM/Betty Crocker website includes a first flour that is unmalted and, by its omission, presumably unbleached, and a second flour that is bleached and malted. I have to believe that GM is using its own flours in its mixes. This led me to look for an unmalted, unbleached flour at the GM flours website. Such a combination would not be very common inasmuch as most of the GM flours are malted. As you know, we had been operating on the premise that the flour in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was a bleached cake flour, which led us to elect bread flour to raise its protein content to get it into the pizza dough range.

The only GM flour that I could find that is both unmalted and unbleached is the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour, as described at http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc. You might recall that I raised the possibility in Reply 206 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg140111.html#msg140111 that the flour used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix was "either cake flour or pastry flour, or possibly a blend that has a protein content in the cake/pastry flour range, possibly a GM/Sperry bleached cake/pastry flour with a protein content of around 9%". The Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour has a protein content of 9.5% +/-0.6%. It's hard to say whether that is the flour that is used in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix but the Sureflake flour was the only flour that I could find at the GM flour website that is both unmalted and unbleached.

The second flour mentioned above can be almost anything. A bleached and malted flour is extremely common. But, if I had to guess, I would say that the second flour is either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour. But, either way, the predominant flour is the unmalted and unbleached flour.

Peter
Norma,

I decided to go back and re-read the various documents we found on chemical leavening systems to further solidify my understanding of such systems. I then decided to look at the chemical leavening systems used by General Mills in the Betty Crocker and Bisquick products that you experimented with to see if I could divine the logic used in those leavening systems. Here is the summary of the chemical leavening systems used in those products:

Pouch Betty Crocker Pizza Crust Mix: sodium aluminum phosphate (aka SALP) and baking soda (this is a single-acting leavening system); there is also yeast in the mix.

Pouch Bisquick Buttermilk Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Bisquick Cheese-Garlic Biscuit Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Box Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix: baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate (this is a double-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system).

Pouch Betty Crocker Banana Nut Muffin Mix: baking soda and SALP (this is a single-acting leavening system)
.

What I concluded from the above pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems is that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and the product is to go into the oven promptly, there is no need to use a fast-acting acid. A slow-acting acid (in a single-acting context) will suffice. The production of carbon dioxide will occur during baking. If there is to be an initial mix and some bench time, or if it will take more than just a few minutes to prepare the final product using the mix, then using a double-acting leavening system seems to make sense.

In your case, with your experiments using the mixes with "goody bags", you inherited the chemical leavening systems used in the various General Mills mixes. Those leavening systems make sense for a dough that is going to ferment for several hours, much as it does for a biscuit mix that typically takes about 15 minutes to turn into biscuits. One of the things that I also learned is if a double-acting leavening system is used, there will be some initial production of carbon dioxide due to the fast-acting acid but it will cease (level off) after only a few minutes and will thereafter resume carbon dioxide production once the product in question is baked. If you were to decide that you want to make a really fast pizza dough within say, five minutes, you would perhaps go with a combination of SALP and baking soda. You wouldn't use the fast-acting acid (see more on this below). Alternatively, if you were to decide that a pizza dough that can be made within say, 15 minutes or more, is what you are after, then I think you would go with the baking soda, SALP and monocalcium phosphate. I believe that you could use a leavening system using sodium aluminum sulfate (aka SAS) instead of SALP, as is the case with the Clabber Girl retail baking powder, I think that the SALP may be a better choice for your purposes because it works more slowly than SAS. The final answer on this would depend on the desired mix, bench and fermentation times.

For your additional information, I believe that the Clapper Girl baking powder you have been using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No. 1 as presented at page 72 of the article at http://www.google.com/books?id=rU1wQotD3jIC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false. I can't tell you the actual percents of the three components--only that the pecking order of the Clapper Girl baking powder is the same as the Double Acting Formula No. 1.

I don't think that you have to rush to make decisions on how to proceed in the short term. You might want to await the results of a dough formulation that tries to mimic the combination of the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking Mix and the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix that produced the Sukie pizza that you liked so much. I feel comfortable about how you might proceed once you get the various samples of chemical leavening ingredients. I think I have the math part under control also, although I have not yet put pencil to paper to come up with numbers. Using the neutralizing values (NVs), which is the math part, is considered to be a starting point. This means that some experimentation is likely to be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.

I should also mention that all of the pizza mixes that were set forth in Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 use some combination of SALP and baking soda--but no fast-acting acid like monocalcium phosphate. That seems to be pretty much standard operating procedure for such mixes. All of those mixes also use yeast. The only pizza crust mixes that I am aware of that do not use any chemical leavening system is the Weisenberger pizza crust mix (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903) and the Eagle Mills mix (Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137231.html#msg137231). I have not conducted an exhaustive search for all pizza crust mixes so there may be other examples.

Peter

Peter,

I am just beginning to understand these different chemical leavening systems, that are in the different Betty Crocker products. I saved all my pouches of the biscuits and muffin mixes, and still have a box of the Original Bisquick here at home, but never thought to look if they used different chemical leavening systems.  I wondered how the biscuit and muffins mixes all worked, used with your “goody bag”, when made into pizzas.  I guess your goody bag with the Clabber Girl in it, is what made it work, since the Clabber Girl has a double acting formula.  Do you also think that is why they all worked okay?

When I was reading about different combinations of chemical leavening systems I never thought to look on my pouches.  I just looked at the pouches and the Original Bisquick and now see there are different chemical leavening systems used in the different products.  I also see how the pouches for the muffins it says ready in 3 minutes and the pouches for the biscuits, say ready in 15 minutes.  I can now understand what you concluded from the pattern of use of the chemical leavening systems, that if a mix is to be made into a batter or other mixture quickly and then goes into the oven promptly, the single-acting powder will suffice.

I wouldn’t know until I did some experiments, for a pizza crust mix, whether I would want a fast acting chemical leavening system, but would think, your idea of using SALP might be a better choice for my purposes because it works more slowly that SAS.

It is interesting you think the Clabber Girl baking powder I am using conforms to the Double Acting Formula No.. 1 as presented  at page 72 of the article on Bakery technology and engineering.  When I read that before I had wondered if any of those two Double acting formulas were anything like Clabber Girl double acting baking powder or what I was looking for.  I can understand you wouldn’t know if the percents were right, but at least that might be a start to try.

I don’t think there is any need to rush either in how to proceed right now, but find it interesting that you feel comfortable about how I might proceed, once I get the various samples of the chemical leavening ingredients.  I didn’t know the neutralizing values (Nvs), would be the math part, which would be considered the starting point.  I can understand experimentation would be necessary to come up with a final workable solution.  

I wonder why the pizza mixes you set-forth in Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 don’t have any fast acting acid like monocalcium phosphate.

I would also agree that Betty Crocker would be using GM flours.  I know we have operated on the premise that the flour in the Biquick Original Pancake and Baking mix was cake flour and then that led to adding the KABF to raise the protein content, in the pizza experiments I did try.  It is also interesting you found the Sureflake Cake and Pastry flour and was able to decide that might be the flour that is in the Bisquick Original Pancake and Baking mix.  

Thanks for all your investigating!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 12:19:36 AM
AAAARRRRRGH! My head! Technical Overload!
 :-D



Bill,

You made me chuckle again.   :-D  To understand these different chemical leavening systems is much different than understanding regular types of yeasts or even starters, when used in pizzas.  It is interesting to learn about how different chemical leavening systems work, but when I first started this thread, I never thought it would lead to all of the technical overload.   :-D  At least though this thread, even if I am not successful in creating a pizza crust mix, I will understand more about chemical leaving systems used in products.  I never will be a chemist, because I don't even understand how to do the hard math part, but am learning more.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 08:39:18 AM
Peter,

I don’t know if you found any of these articles in your research on chemical leavening or not.

Chemical Leavens, starting on page 15 http://books.google.com/books?id=TXYIrkrtDw0C&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=Bakery+products:+science+and+technology+By+Yiu+H.+Hui,+Harold+Corke+chemical+leavening+systems&source=bl&ots=j_8luQeMYF&sig=kUZtHgAr0NYZwGTq_RWs_vWyfoI&hl=en&ei=apDgTdLoDcbEgQfApJGuBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

http://www.whereincity.com/articles/science/6270.html
                                
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30115754/Bakery-Processes-Chemical-Leavening-Agents

http://www.icl-perfproductslp.com/page.aspx?id=72

http://www.physics.umanitoba.ca/~jhpage/PDF_Files/GuillermoJCS.pdf

A patent for Chemical Leavener System comprising acidulant precursors by Victor T. Huang

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/52927766/Chemical-Leavener-System-Comprising-Acidulant-Precursors---Patent-6824807

Victor T.Haung also is listed under this book  General Mills, Inc. Minneapolis, Minnesota, U.S.A., after his name, on the end page.

http://www.crcnetbase.com/doi/pdfplusdirect/10.1201/9780203911785.fmatt

I wonder if the Victor T. Haung as the one listed in the book, Characterization of Cereals and Flours is the same person from the patent above.  

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2011, 10:24:57 AM
Norma,

I am just beginning to understand these different chemical leavening systems, that are in the different Betty Crocker products. I saved all my pouches of the biscuits and muffin mixes, and still have a box of the Original Bisquick here at home, but never thought to look if they used different chemical leavening systems.  I wondered how the biscuit and muffins mixes all worked, used with your “goody bag”, when made into pizzas.  I guess your goody bag with the Clabber Girl in it, is what made it work, since the Clabber Girl has a double acting formula.  Do you also think that is why they all worked okay?

A lot of thought went into the "goody bag" (as discussed in Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736), which first required that I try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (which took up most of my time), but to a certain extent luck came into play as well. The first thing that I had to do was to add more flour to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix to raise the total protein content to something that was more conducive to a pizza dough. Once I did that, I had to adjust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl's baking powder quantity, to bring their baker's percents back into balance. Otherwise, their baker's percents would have gone down since those values are measured with respect to the total flour weight. (It's like making a dough with a high hydration and then using a lot of bench flour. Unless the amounts of the other ingredients are also increased, their baker's percents will go down because of the added bench flour. This is something that people rarely think about.) Also, I added regular yeast in order to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.

Fortuitously, when I was done, the total weight, including the total amount of water that I thought might be needed, was enough to make a single 16" pizza or two roughly 12" pizzas, with a thickness factor of around 0.105, which is a value that is in a range that you like to use and is also high enough to make a decent pizza in a standard home oven (that is, not too thin and not too thick). I did not know that the "goody bag" would become a generic or one-size-fits-all type of addition. I am glad that that happened since it does simplify matters considerably. Some time, you might calculate the added cost from using the "goody bag", to see what the overall cost is with the cost of the pouch of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix included. I suspect that the total cost is reasonable, especially given the good results that you achieved.

Quote
I wonder why the pizza mixes you set-forth in Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137206.html#msg137206 don’t have any fast acting acid like monocalcium phosphate.

I did not have the instructions for most of the pizza crust mixes set forth in Reply 23 but it appeared to me that all of such mixes were intended to be used to make dough very quickly and to get the pizzas into the oven as fast as possible. After all, that is what most home consumers seem to want and expect out of an "instant" pizza crust mix. That protocol also seemed to fit the pattern for doughs that, in general, do not need a fast-acting acid to get going. All of the activity from the chemical leavening system takes place in the oven (there will be some activity during the mixing stage, as is usually the case even with a fast-acting acid, but the bulk of it occurs during baking).

Peter

Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2011, 11:10:02 AM
I don’t know if you found any of these articles in your research on chemical leavening or not.

Norma,

No, I did not find those articles. Had I found them and actually read them, someone would have come and taken me away to a nice, quiet place where I would not hurt myself. Then, even Bill (chickenparm) wouldn't be able to visit me because my keepers would suspect that you used Bill to smuggle in more articles on chemical leavening systems that you found for me to read.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 12:22:50 PM
Norma,

A lot of thought went into the "goody bag" (as discussed in Reply 63 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736), which first required that I try to reverse engineer the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix (which took up most of my time), but to a certain extent luck came into play as well. The first thing that I had to do was to add more flour to the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix to raise the total protein content to something that was more conducive to a pizza dough. Once I did that, I had to adjust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl's baking powder quantity, to bring their baker's percents back into balance. Otherwise, their baker's percents would have gone down since those values are measured with respect to the total flour weight. (It's like making a dough with a high hydration and then using a lot of bench flour. Unless the amounts of the other ingredients are also increased, their baker's percents will go down because of the added bench flour. This is something that people rarely think about.) Also, I added regular yeast in order to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.

Fortuitously, when I was done, the total weight, including the total amount of water that I thought might be needed, was enough to make a single 16" pizza or two roughly 12" pizzas, with a thickness factor of around 0.105, which is a value that is in a range that you like to use and is also high enough to make a decent pizza in a standard home oven (that is, not too thin and not too thick). I did not know that the "goody bag" would become a generic or one-size-fits-all type of addition. I am glad that that happened since it does simplify matters considerably. Some time, you might calculate the added cost from using the "goody bag", to see what the overall cost is with the cost of the pouch of the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix included. I suspect that the total cost is reasonable, especially given the good results that you achieved.

Peter


Peter,

I know you put a lot thought, calculations and time, about what went into the “goody bag”.  I saw in your calculations that you then needed to adust the amounts of most of the other ingredients, including the Clabber Girl’s baking powder quantity, so they would all be in balance.  I can understand everything has to be measured and be in balance with the total flour weight, for the mixes and “goody bag” to be able to turn into a pizza.  I know you also added regular yeast to get the benefits of yeast fermentation.  

I think we were fortunate that the “goody bag” did work with the muffins mixes and the biscuit mixes.  I can understand you were glad that did happen.  I will try and calculate what the costs of the “goody bag” and different mixes might be.  I don’t think it will come out too expensive.  

I was just out shopping for gardening things and at my local Country Store.  I bought a bag of Purasnow Cake Flour.  I might try using that with KABF to make another experimental pizza this weekend.  I also have a bag of pie and pastry flour here at home (but I don’t know the brand).  Which flour would you choose, if I do decide to do the experiment?

Steve (Ev) told me has dextrose for beer brewing and will bring some this coming Tuesday if I want to try some.  I wonder if that dextrose is the same kind I am looking for.



No, I did not find those articles. Had I found them and actually read them, someone would have come and taken me away to a nice, quiet place where I would not hurt myself. Then, even Bill (chickenparm) wouldn't be able to visit me because my keepers would suspect that you used Bill to smuggle in more articles on chemical leavening systems that you found for me to read.

Peter

Lol, you also made me chuckle just like Bill did.  :-D I don’t understand all that is written in those articles, but it sounds by the patent Victor T. Haung applied for, he does know a lot about chemical leavening systems and how they work. I wonder if that patent was ever used at GM.  I don’t want you to be taken away to a quiet place, where you won’t hurt yourself.  I just thought the articles were interesting in explaining about chemical leavening systems.  I wonder if Bill looks at those articles what he would think.  ???

Norma



Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2011, 02:06:25 PM
Norma,

As between the Pureasnow cake flour and the pie and pastry flour, I think I would go with the Pureasnow just now, together with the KABF. However, out of curiosity, I checked the General Mills flour website to see if they offer a pie and pastry flour. As it turns out, there are two flours that are supposedly good for pie crusts--the Sureflake cake and pastry flour mentioned earlier (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc) and also a pastry flour called Cameo (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Cameo50802(West).doc) that is unmalted and unbleached and appears to be quite similar to the Sureflake cake and pastry flour. I haven't checked the specs yet in detail to see what the differences are other than to note that they have the same protein content (9% +/-0.6%) and that the Cameo flour has a considerably lower ash content than the Sureflake flour.

As with many commercial ingredients, dextrose comes in various forms. But, for now and for your purposes, I don't see any harm in using what Steve uses. I'd be be interested to see if it produces more fermentation and crust coloration when you do get around to trying it.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 05:00:08 PM
Norma,

As between the Pureasnow cake flour and the pie and pastry flour, I think I would go with the Pureasnow just now, together with the KABF. However, out of curiosity, I checked the General Mills flour website to see if they offer a pie and pastry flour. As it turns out, there are two flours that are supposedly good for pie crusts--the Sureflake cake and pastry flour mentioned earlier (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Sureflake58431(West).doc) and also a pastry flour called Cameo (http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/Cameo50802(West).doc) that is unmalted and unbleached and appears to be quite similar to the Sureflake cake and pastry flour. I haven't checked the specs yet in detail to see what the differences are other than to note that they have the same protein content (9% +/-0.6%) and that the Cameo flour has a considerably lower ash content than the Sureflake flour.

As with many commercial ingredients, dextrose comes in various forms. But, for now and for your purposes, I don't see any harm in using what Steve uses. I'd be be interested to see if it produces more fermentation and crust coloration when you do get around to trying it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me which flour to use, if I have time to do an experiment.  I wonder if the Country Store pie and pastry flour is one of those you mentioned.  The Country Store does seem to carry GM products.  There are only until 1:00 pm Saturday’s and now won’t be opened until Tuesday, but I will have to check on what brand and kind of pie and pastry flour they carry.  As I posted in before, the flours Country Stores carry, aren’t always labeled to their brands. I think the Country Store does get all their flours from Dutch Valley. 
 
If I have time Tuesday, I will do another experiment, this time with the dextrose.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2011, 09:27:24 PM
Another mystery pizza was made, but this time at home.  I used KABF, Pursasnow cake flour, soy flour, IDY and a chemical leaving system (Clabber Girl baking powder), along with other ingredients.  I wanted to see how this pie would bake in my home oven.  

This pizza took from start to finish about 2 ½ hrs.  I wanted to let the dough ball ferment longer, but it was getting late.  I used the top of my stove with a hot pad on top of one burner to speed the fermentation along.  This pizza was baked on the bottom rack of my oven at about 500 degrees F on the pizza stone for 7 minutes.

When the pie was baking it develop a bubble in two places.  I thought since this might be another Sukie pizza, I needed something special to pop the bubbles.  On the pictures below is what I popped the bubbles with.  I don’t know if anyone knows what they are or not.  

This formula might need a few more tweaks, but the crust, crumb, bake time, and formula did work decent to make another Sukie pizza.  I find it interesting how IDY and a chemical leavening system can be used hand in hand to make a pizza.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2011, 09:30:37 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2011, 09:33:19 PM
more pictures..I even picked some fresh basil from my garden to place on this Sukie pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2011, 09:35:14 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on May 30, 2011, 09:36:06 PM
I needed something special to pop the bubbles.  On the pictures below is what I popped the bubbles with.  I don’t know if anyone knows what they are or not.  

Norma,

Are your "bubble poppers" antique or vintage crochet hooks?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2011, 10:57:00 PM
Norma,

Are your "bubble poppers" antique or vintage crochet hooks?

Peter

Peter,

The "bubble poppers" I used for the pizza were Victorian button hooks, made of sterling silver.  http://www.purelysilver.info/buttonhooks.html  I did crochet in my former life and made many afghans, but pizza making is more fun and doesn’t take as long as using a crochet hook to make afghans.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2011, 11:07:51 PM
I tried the same mystery pizza I made at home today at market.  Steve brought me some corn sugar (dextrose) to try in the mix.  This time I used less water (131 grams) and the dough felt about the same as other mystery pizzas I made with the Betty Crocker mixes with the “goody bag” added.  The last time I try this dough at home I had added more water and then had to add more KABF to make the dough feel like the doughs I had tried with the Betty Crocker mixes with the added “goody bag”.

Steve and I left the dough rise two times in a time frame of about 3 hours.

I don’t know why, but this pizza wanted to really brown on the bottom crust much faster.  I had to add 3 screens so the crust wouldn’t burn.  Maybe it was the corn sugar that wanted to make the crust brown too fast. 

The crumb and texture weren’t as good as the attempt I made at home.  I also took a picture of the thermometer of how hot it was at market today.

I also sent Tom Lehmann a PM about me trying to make a pizza crust mix and asked him if there are any articles at AIB that I could read online to understand more about how to approach making a pizza crust mix.  This is what Tom Lehmann replied today.

Norma;

Check the PMQ archives for any of my articles on take and bake pizza as well as Think Tank postings. The key to getting the desired performance as well as a decent shelf life for the mix/goodie bag lies in the use of a coated leavening system. Without the encapsulation the leavening system will slowly react over a fairly short time due to the moisture in the mix (think flour). Flour isn't dry, it actually contains between 10 and 13% moisture. There are some mixes out these that do not use an encapsulated leavening system, but these use a special, dried (low moisture) flour. As for leavening systems, you choices are: SALP (sodium aluminum sulfate); CAPP (calcium acid pyrophosphate); SAPP (sodium acid pyro phosphate) and GDL (glucano delta lactone) along with soda to fully neutralize the acid component. The timing of gas production can be adjusted to some extent by combining one or more of these with another leavening acid such as MCP (monocalcium phosphate), or other forms of the above mentioned acids.
To this, you can also add in the particle size of the soda. Soda with a larger particle size is slower to go into solution, and as such, it tends to slow down the rate of gas production in the leavening system.
If you will send me your mailing address I'll send you a free copy of one of our AIB Technical Bulletins on chemical leavening systems in baking.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2011, 11:11:30 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2011, 11:15:08 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 07:41:55 AM
I am linking this post on Saturday Coffee’s thread on the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mix, because Saturday Coffee did send me two Weisenberger’s Pizza Crust mixes to experiment with.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg141219.html#msg141219

The final pizza from the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mix did turn out better than pizza businesses near me. 

Thanks again Saturday Coffee for sending me the two Weisenberger’s Pizza Crust mixes to experiment with.  This was another mystery pizza Steve and I tried at market.  Steve agreed that this pizza was very good.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on June 01, 2011, 01:55:19 PM
Norma,

Apart from the ovens, was the only difference between the two pizza doughs is that you used dextrose (corn sugar) at market and sugar at home? I might also add that dextrose is not quite as sweet as ordinary table sugar (sucrose). So, if you were to replace sugar with dextrose, you would need more dextrose by weight to equal the sweetness of sucrose. That is only with respect to sweetness. The fact that dextrose is a simple sugar, it is immediately available as food for the yeast and to participate in the Maillard reactions to add more crust color. In reverse engineering food products that include dextrose, it is hard to accurately nail down the percent of dextrose used because it is very difficult to find good data (Nutrition Facts and the like) on ingredients like dextrose that are commercial/industrial ingredients.

What Tom Lehmann told you seems to be correct by and large based on what I have taken away from the many articles you cited. However, one of the things I did discuss with the fellow at Clabber Girl is the effect of the moisture content of flour and whether it was necessary to use a flour that was dried to reduce the moisture content so as not to interact with the chemical leavening system. As I reported earlier in this thread, I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids. You might ask Tom for the AIB piece to see what it says about chemical leavening systems.

Peter
 
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 02:48:17 PM
Norma,

Apart from the ovens, was the only difference between the two pizza doughs is that you used dextrose (corn sugar) at market and sugar at home? I might also add that dextrose is not quite as sweet as ordinary table sugar (sucrose). So, if you were to replace sugar with dextrose, you would need more dextrose by weight to equal the sweetness of sucrose. That is only with respect to sweetness. The fact that dextrose is a simple sugar, it is immediately available as food for the yeast and to participate in the Maillard reactions to add more crust color. In reverse engineering food products that include dextrose, it is hard to accurately nail down the percent of dextrose used because it is very difficult to find good data (Nutrition Facts and the like) on ingredients like dextrose that are commercial/industrial ingredients.

What Tom Lehmann told you seems to be correct by and large based on what I have taken away from the many articles you cited. However, one of the things I did discuss with the fellow at Clabber Girl is the effect of the moisture content of flour and whether it was necessary to use a flour that was dried to reduce the moisture content so as not to interact with the chemical leavening system. As I reported earlier in this thread, I was also told that the moisture in the flour(s) used in the GM mixes would be diluted by all of the other ingredients and shouldn't prematurely start the chemical activity between the baking soda and the acids. You might ask Tom for the AIB piece to see what it says about chemical leavening systems.

Peter
 

Peter,

The differences I made were, I replaced the dextrose (in the same grams) with the sugar.  I tasted the corn sugar and to me, if really tasted sweeter than sugar (or more powerful).  I only put a small amount (a dab) on my tongue.  I did add less water to the dough mix yesterday.  131 grams versus 159.3 grams used at the attempt at home.  I also had added 14 more grams of KABF to the mix I did at home, because the dough seemed to sticky.  So right there are some more variables.  At least to me, I would think there needs to be more KABF in the mix and less Cake Flour to get a decent pizza dough.  I don’t know if that is true or not.  The test dough made at home felt more like a pizza dough.

I did get the pdf. document from Tom Lehmann this morning and printed it out. It is eight pages long and I have been trying to study it.  To me it is very complicated, in understanding all that is written.  If there is anything you might want to know about the pdf. document from Tom, let me know. 

I also received my samples from Abitec Corp. this morning. (Sterotrex HM and K)   They also came with 16 pages of documentation. 

I don’t know if I ever will be understand all what must go into making a pizza crust mix.  It is really complicated to me.

Picture of Abitec products I received today.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on June 01, 2011, 03:14:58 PM
Norma,

I found the page where the data on the Abitec Sterotex HM and K hydrogenated (partially?) vegetable oils is provided, at http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Sterotex%20Tech%20Data/Sterotex%20HM_NF%20TDS%20I-18.pdf. In your intial inquiry at Abitec, were you able to determine whether the HM and K products are used in commercial mixes such as sold by General Mills?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 04:18:48 PM
Norma,

I found the page where the data on the Abitec Sterotex HM and K hydrogenated (partially?) vegetable oils is provided, at http://www.abiteccorp.com/i_templates/administration/tinymce/uploaded/File/Sterotex%20Tech%20Data/Sterotex%20HM_NF%20TDS%20I-18.pdf. In your intial inquiry at Abitec, were you able to determine whether the HM and K products are used in commercial mixes such as sold by General Mills?

Peter

Peter,

I wasn’t able to determine from my conversations with the person I spoke with at Abitec if the HM and K products are anything like GM uses in their products.  I could email the person I spoke with and ask them that question.  In the documents I have for the Abitec products it says Product use: Various Food, Cosmetic, and Industrial Uses.

I will see if I can find some links to the AIB technical Bulletin for chemical leaveners Tom sent me for you to look at.  There are references and other sources at the end of the pdf document.

Norma 
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 08:16:47 PM
Another mystery pizza was made at market yesterday by Steve and me.  I had bought a Auntie Anne’s At-Home Baking Kit awhile ago, but didn’t try it out until yesterday.  I did take the dough mix out of the bag and weighed it to see how much it weighed, because I wanted to see if I tried a NY style pizza out of the At-Home Baking kit, how much the total weight would be when the water was added. I also wanted to see since ADY was in this mix, if that would make a different dough or not. The Auntie Anne’s At-Home Baking Kit is for soft pretzels, Deep Dish pizza, pretzel dogs, and monkey bread.  In the directions it said to dissolve contents of the yeast packet (10.5 grams) in 1 ½ cups lukewarm tap water. (105 degrees F) Let sit about 2 minutes.  Water temperature must not exceed 115 degrees F.  Steve and I measured the water temperature when adding the ADY to water, so it wouldn’t be too hot.  We followed the other directions inside the box and when the dough was mixed it seemed way too dry (it had said in the directions that after kneading, the dough would be soft and slightly tacky and that wasn’t the case for us).  We then added more water, until we thought the dough was moist enough or about 63 % hydration.  The dough mixing directions said to place the bowl of dough in a warm spot (85-95 degrees F) for 30 minutes so the dough can rise.  Of course market temperatures were that high yesterday, so there was no need to find a warm spot for the dough to rise.  We waited about 1 ½ hrs. to use the dough.  We divided the dough to use enough dough for a 16 “ pizza.  The dough ball was easy to open.  I did take a picture of the pizza baking in the oven, but it came out blurry.  After first baking the pizza for not long, it wanted to brown on the bottom too fast, so 3 screens were added under the pie.  

After eat tasting a slice of pizza, Steve, other stand holders and I decided the crust was way too sweet.  I don’t know if it was the dextrose or molasses, or another ingredient in the mix, that made the dough way too sweet.  The rest of the divided dough I bought home last evening and froze, to try another time for soft pretzels.  

I wanted to try this Auntie Anne’s At-Home Baking Kit because I wanted to see if it would taste like real Auntie Anne’s soft pretzels.  So far it didn’t.  I don’t know how a home person making this dough would fair out, because even though Steve and I do know some about making dough, I don’t think the instructions work.  I also planned on trying the Aunti Anne’s At-Home Baking Kit yesterday because it said in the ingredients it contained less than 2% of dextrose and also included sodium aluminum sulfate in the ingredients.  Sodium aluminum sulfate wasn’t in the other GM mixes I tried before.  I was trying less than 2 % of dextrose or sugar in my home pizza crust mix.

I had tried making my own pretzel dough in another thread, and from the experiment Steve and I did yesterday, I like my own results better.  The Auntie Anne’s At-Home Baking Kit was also too expensive bought at the Country Store at 5.99 for the baking kit. I wonder how many people buy that baking kit and are disappointed in the results. Although the bottom crust looked almost burnt, it didn't have any burnt taste when eating it.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 08:21:09 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 08:22:52 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 10:30:10 PM
I did email Laura at the Abitec Corporation today to ask if she knew if the sterotex products are used in GM mixes.  This was Laura’s reply to me tonight.

I do not know specifically if the sterotex products are used in GM mixes, but these types of powdered, controlled melt products are commonly used in baking mixes.  Hope that helps.

Laura

In Laura’s last email before today, in her reply she had said:

For example,   Sterotex HM melts b/w 153-156F, while Sterotex K melts b/w 178-183F.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2011, 10:15:12 AM
Peter,

I was searching online for different references and other sources contained within the pdf. document Tom sent me.                                              
                                              
These are just a few articles books, or documents I found.

http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057547

This can tell how much sweeter to add or other ideas 4 to 7 parts of sugar or substitute for the dough weight composition.  sweetening agent levels exceeding 10 parts per 100 parts flour, i.e., a sugar to flour ratio exceeding about 0.1 is to be avoided.

http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4481222.html

Food phosphates questions and answers:

http://www.thermphos.com/Home/Brochures/~/media/Pdf/brochure/Brochure08%20pdf.ashx

Versatility of Bicarbonate Leavening bases.

http://books.google.com/books?id=OTy8aIWxHhQC&pg=PA106&lpg=PA106&dq=versatility+of+bicarbonate+leavening+bases+lajoie+pages+420-424&source=bl&ots=QA5dH7Z_cX&sig=uHFT4Ezh9ZyGg11wWJCxvi5UfSM&hl=en&ei=uhHnTem_AYPDgQfRyP2MCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Treatise on Cake baking: There is a book referenced, but I am having a hard time finding links to the where it is reference in the book about chemical leavening systems.
                                                                                                                                                   
 chemical suppliers     
http://www.food-ingredients.com/resultpage.php?q=acidulants,+ph+control

I saw so many articles and pfd. documents and could go on forever searching.  Most of these articles and documents are way over my head.  Instead of driving us both crazy, if you want to know any specifics of what is contained in the 8 page technical bulletin Tom sent me, let me know what you want or would like to know.  I then can type out what you do not know.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 09, 2011, 02:01:51 PM
I called Weisenberger Mills today and talked to a nice southern gentleman.  I started the conversation by saying that someone had sent me two of their pizza crust mixes to try.  I told the southern gentleman, that I thought their pizza crust mix, in the 6.5 oz. packet turned out great.  I also told him I had tried other pizza crust mixes and non had compared with the Weisenberger pizza crust mix.  I then asked him about the kind of shortening that is used in their pizza crust mix, because I wondered how a shortening could be added to a dry mix.  He said they use a spray-dried shortening for their pizza crust mixes.  I said I didn’t know about what a spray-dried shortening was.  He then said it is an industrial shortening that is spray dried and many biscuit or other mixes also use the same product.  I asked him if  anyone someone like myself could buy spray dried shortening and he said no, it is only for industrial purposes.  I didn’t want to blow my cover, so I didn’t ask anything more about the spray-dried shortening.  I then asked him what kind of flour is used in the pizza crust mix and he said strong red spring wheat, but didn’t tell me it included the soft winter wheat, like Peter had posted at Reply 2 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139922.html#msg139922  It now makes me wonder which kind of spring wheat might be used in the pizza crust mix, because they do sell different flours from spring wheat and also other flours. http://www.weisenberger.com/category.cfm?Category=20&CFID=10742034&CFTOKEN=95599290 I then told the gentleman, that I own a small pizza stand at a farmer’s market in Pa. and that is where I tried the pizza crust mix.  I also told him I let the dough ferment for longer than the instructions stated and found the crust turned out very good.  He said, most people don’t want to wait as long as I did to make a pizza.  They want instant everything.  I told him I did try other pizza crust mixes and didn’t like them as well as the Weisenberger Pizza Crust Mix.  I then went on to ask about if they use real sugar in their pizza crust mix or do they used dextrose (I already knew they must be using real sugar), like some of the mixes I had tried.  He said they do use real sugar in the pizza crust mix.  I told the gentleman that I had heard of the L-cysteine because I do make many kinds of pizzas and had tried some dough conditioners.  I also asked him if non fat dried milk is really used in the mix as stated, and he said yes.  I didn’t go into more detail about anything else, because I thought I had already asked enough of questions.  I told the gentleman I might be interested in buying some of the Weisenberger Pizza Crust mixes to sell at my farmers’ market stand and how would I go about that.  He said the cases come in 12 packets and if I ordered 5 or 6 cases, it would be cheaper, but I would still have to pay shipping charges.  He told me if I had any more questions to call again.  Weisenberger’s pizza crust mixes sure sound easier than the Betty Crocker or the Auntie Anne’s at Home Baking Kit I did try, and the pizza was a lot better.  I wonder if I should purchase one of Weisenberger’s spring flours or other flours and get some L-cysteine to try.  At least there are no chemical leaving systems to try and understand.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 09, 2011, 11:51:05 PM
I asked him if  anyone someone like myself could buy spray dried shortening and he said no, it is only for industrial purposes. 

Actually, I think you can get it. Dehydrated/dry shortening powder is sold as an emergency preparedness supply such as here: http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145 or
http://www.homelandpreparedness.com/cgi-bin/shop/fr_searchz.cgi?user_id=id&database=prov/dbase2.exm&template=prov/tmplt_cans_sr2.htm&0_option=1&0=DH41

If you are serious about getting into manufacturing, you might try The Food Source - http://www.foodsourceinc.com/dairy.asp?subcat=13   I think they are located near you too and they have a pretty user friendly sample program.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2011, 12:09:45 AM
Actually, I think you can get it. Dehydrated/dry shortening powder is sold as an emergency preparedness supply such as here: http://beprepared.com/product.asp?pn=FS%20D145 or
http://www.homelandpreparedness.com/cgi-bin/shop/fr_searchz.cgi?user_id=id&database=prov/dbase2.exm&template=prov/tmplt_cans_sr2.htm&0_option=1&0=DH41

If you are serious about getting into manufacturing, you might try The Food Source - http://www.foodsourceinc.com/dairy.asp?subcat=13   I think they are located near you too and they have a pretty user friendly sample program.

CL

Craig,

Thanks so much for giving me the links to where spray dried shortening can be found.  :) I will do some contacting. I did get two samples, from the Abitec Corporation, but am looking for more to try.

I did contact another company today to see what they might have.  I don’t know how serious I am about getting into manufacturing a pizza crust mix until I can see how good of a pizza crust mix can be made.  I don’t want a regular pizza crust mix that doesn’t even have much taste after it is baked into a pizza.  I don’t know if my expectations or to high or not, but it is interesting to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on June 10, 2011, 10:13:51 AM
Norma,

You might recall when we conducted searches, much like Craig did, the products that came up for campers, survivalists and emergency applications all contained more than just partially-hydrogenated oils, such as corn syrup solids, mono-and diglycerides, etc. By contrast, the Abitec products, while lacking the other ingredients, seemed to be fully hydrogenated oils. What I was hoping that you could find are the oils that are only partially-hydrogenated, without anything else. I believe that it is such products that General Mills uses in its premixes. My recollection is that you found The Food Source website, and that we discussed same, but I don't recall whether you were able to get samples from them.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2011, 11:30:06 AM
Norma,

You might recall when we conducted searches, much like Craig did, the products that came up for campers, survivalists and emergency applications all contained more than just partially-hydrogenated oils, such as corn syrup solids, mono-and diglycerides, etc. By contrast, the Abitec products, while lacking the other ingredients, seemed to be fully hydrogenated oils. What I was hoping that you could find are the oils that are only partially-hydrogenated, without anything else. I believe that it is such products that General Mills uses in its premixes. My recollection is that you found The Food Source website, and that we discussed same, but I don't recall whether you were able to get samples from them.

Peter

Peter,

I do remember when we conducted searches, like Craig did, that the products for campers, etc and did have other ingredients added.  I did ask for samples on the Food Source website, but didn’t get any answer.  I did ask for samples again last evening, but think I should call them to speak to customer service.  They might be able to help me more, if I specially tell them what kind of application I want to try for a pizza crust mix.  I will ask them which product might be partially-hydrogenated.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 10, 2011, 11:51:52 AM
Pete, maybe I'm misreading what you wrote in your last post above. I hope I'm not telling you something you already know.

Typically, the fat content of spray-dried shortening is in the 70-75% range - meaning 25-30% is something else (a carrier). I believe that only recently has there been methods to go much higher than 75%, see: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la103447n  Spray-dried shortening powders are always partially hydrogenated shortenings which are micro-encapsulated in a water-soluble material. They add a carrier such as skim milk, corn-syrup solids, sodium caseninate, and mono and diglycerides and then spray-dry the emulsion.

If the Abitec products were 100% fat, it would make sense that they were fully hydrogenated, however they were probably not "spray-dried." Hard fats can be powdered with other methods such as spray chilling and grinding - neither requires a carrier. I think it would be very uncommon for such a product to be used as a food ingridient.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2011, 12:15:41 PM
Craig,

Thanks for your additional research.  :) I don’t understand what the differences are, but since you mentioned the Food Source website again, I did call them and spoke to a customer service person.  I told him I would like to know more about their partially- hydrogenated shortenings and what might be the best product for the application I am trying for a pizza crust mix.  He is going to email  me the specs of what he thinks would be the best product to try.

Will wait to see what Peter understands.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on June 10, 2011, 12:57:45 PM
Craig,

Thank for helping educate me on this subject. I appreciate it.

Like Norma, I have been trying to learn more about the partial hydrogenation of oils like soybean and/or cottonseed oil. The starting point was the General Mills ingredients lists for their premixes that Norma has been experimenting with. The only ingredients listed for the hydrogenated fats in those premixes are partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. I had earlier seen the ingredients list for the Godfather's original crust at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, which shows other ingredients for the spray dried shortening and, from that, concluded that GM was using only partially-hydrogenated oils in their mixes (otherwise they might have been required to list the other ingredients just as Godfather's Pizza does). I also assumed that such a product would be very inexpensive. Maybe Norma will get further clarification from The Food Source on what type of product GM might actually be using.

I might also refer you to the Weisenberger thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903 where it is noted that the Weisenberger Mill also uses what Norma and I learned from Weisenberger itself is a spray dried shortening. Maybe the Non Fat Dried Milk is the carrier for the oil. From what Norma learned just recently, the sugar in the ingredients list is actually sugar (sucrose), not corn syrup or dextrose.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2011, 01:00:32 PM
Adam at The Food Source sent me a pdf.document for a shortening powder he thinks might work in a pizza crust mix.  I will post about the rest of the pdf. document later, but the ingredients declaration are: partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids, sodium caseinate, and mono and diglycerides.

I don’t know whether to ask for samples of this product or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 10, 2011, 01:24:22 PM
Adam at The Food Source sent me a pdf.document for a shortening powder he thinks might work in a pizza crust mix.  I will post about the rest of the pdf. document later, but the ingredients declaration are: partially hydrogenated soybean oil, corn syrup solids, sodium caseinate, and mono and diglycerides.

I don’t know whether to ask for samples of this product or not.

Norma

I think that is typical for a powdered shortening with fat in the mid-70% range.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2011, 01:52:41 PM
I think that is typical for a powdered shortening with fat in the mid-70% range.

CL

Craig,

Thanks so much for telling me you think that the powdered shortening is typical, with fat in the mid-70% range.  :) I will see if Adam will send me a samples or samples to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 10, 2011, 02:43:00 PM
The starting point was the General Mills ingredients lists for their premixes that Norma has been experimenting with. The only ingredients listed for the hydrogenated fats in those premixes are partially-hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oils. I had earlier seen the ingredients list for the Godfather's original crust at http://vegan.fm/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Ingredient-Statement.pdf, which shows other ingredients for the spray dried shortening and, from that, concluded that GM was using only partially-hydrogenated oils in their mixes (otherwise they might have been required to list the other ingredients just as Godfather's Pizza does).

Notice the GM product lists “nonfat milk.” Not non-fat dry milk. I would think that has to be a carrier for the fat as there is certainly no wet milk in the mix. You can declare the sub ingredients of a food that is an ingredient in another food either way. Parenthetically as Godfathers does or in order of predominance by weight as it appears GM does.

Quote
I might also refer you to the Weisenberger thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13931.msg139903.html#msg139903 where it is noted that the Weisenberger Mill also uses what Norma and I learned from Weisenberger itself is a spray dried shortening. Maybe the Non Fat Dried Milk is the carrier for the oil.

I think it is almost a certainty that the non-fat milk is there as a carrier. It would be rehydrated, added to the shortening, homogenized, and then spray-dried. Remember, if added water is subsequently removed during processing, it does not have to be listed on the ingredient statement.

I believe the FDA allows the use of the common phrase “vegetable shortening” to mean hydrogenated vegetable oil (you would still need to identify the type of oil). If it’s soybean oil as indicated in the Weisenberger declaration, it has to be partially hydrogenated for it to be solid at room temperature a.k.a. “shortening.” I think some companies choose to use “partially hydrogenated [fill in the blank] oil” to get the word “partially” into the declaration as it has been spun to have at least some measure of positive connotation. 

Quote
From what Norma learned just recently, the sugar in the ingredients list is actually sugar (sucrose), not corn syrup or dextrose. 

It has to be sucrose if it’s listed as “sugar.” Also, the FDA requires that the common name be used rather than a scientific name. It can’t be listed as sucrose. Likewise, dextrose is listed as dextrose because it does not have a common name (and corn syrup is listed as corn syrup – despite hard efforts of the corn folks to change it to corn sugar). Not related, but I could tell you stories about problems dextrose caused me developing a new bacon some years ago. It differs from sucrose in meaningful ways other than sweetness.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2011, 06:51:09 AM
Notice the GM product lists “nonfat milk.” Not non-fat dry milk. I would think that has to be a carrier for the fat as there is certainly no wet milk in the mix. You can declare the sub ingredients of a food that is an ingredient in another food either way. Parenthetically as Godfathers does or in order of predominance by weight as it appears GM does.

I think it is almost a certainty that the non-fat milk is there as a carrier. It would be rehydrated, added to the shortening, homogenized, and then spray-dried. Remember, if added water is subsequently removed during processing, it does not have to be listed on the ingredient statement.

I believe the FDA allows the use of the common phrase “vegetable shortening” to mean hydrogenated vegetable oil (you would still need to identify the type of oil). If it’s soybean oil as indicated in the Weisenberger declaration, it has to be partially hydrogenated for it to be solid at room temperature a.k.a. “shortening.” I think some companies choose to use “partially hydrogenated [fill in the blank] oil” to get the word “partially” into the declaration as it has been spun to have at least some measure of positive connotation. 

It has to be sucrose if it’s listed as “sugar.” Also, the FDA requires that the common name be used rather than a scientific name. It can’t be listed as sucrose. Likewise, dextrose is listed as dextrose because it does not have a common name (and corn syrup is listed as corn syrup – despite hard efforts of the corn folks to change it to corn sugar). Not related, but I could tell you stories about problems dextrose caused me developing a new bacon some years ago. It differs from sucrose in meaningful ways other than sweetness.

CL


Craig,

Thanks for your help in understanding how ingredients can be listed.  :) It makes me wonder about your stories about how dextrose caused you problems in developing a new bacon some years ago.  How do you think the dextrose tasted in comparison to regular sugar?  To me it really had a powerful sweet factor, even if only a pinch was tasted.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2011, 06:52:58 AM
I had posted I would post the rested of the pdf. document from the Food Source, Inc. sent to me from Adam.  I didn’t get a return email that I would get a sample of this shortening powder, but thought I would post the rest of the document.

Product: Shortening Powder
Item Number: 1001420
Kosher Status: Yes, Orthodox Union
Country of Origin: Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, USA; Corn Syrup Solids, USA; Sodium Caseinate, USA, Ireland, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, France, Ukraine, Mono and Diglycerides, USA.

Reviewed: February, 2011

Ingredient Declaration:

Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil, Corn Syrup Solids, Sodium Caseinate, and Mono and Diglycerides.

Specifications:
Color: White to Light Cream
Flavor: Bland, Slightly Sweet
Odor: Bland, Slightly Sweet
Scorched Particle: ADPI (B) Pad or Better
Moisture: 2.0%   maximum
Fat:   73.0+/-2.0%
Granulation: 100% though USS #14 Seive
Standard Plate Count 10,000 /g maximum
Yeast and Mold <10/<10 /G
Coliform: <10 /g
Salmonella (by test) Negative
E. Coli/g <10

Packaging:
50 lb. Multi-Wall bag with 2 mil FDA approved poly liner

Storage:
Product stored at ambient temperature not to exceed 75 degrees F and <70% relative humidity

Shelf Life: Minimum of one year when stored as recommended.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 13, 2011, 11:52:51 AM
The differences between sucrose vs. dextrose that caused me so many headaches had mostly to do with the very different browning/burning characteristics of the two at the high temperatures you experience on a griddle. It was a very high volume opportunity for a rather specialized product. I don't think the R&D team working on it really ever grasped the importance. Dextrose is a lot less expensive than sugar, so they love it and want to put it in everything. They were telling me "no dextrose," but the product would not perfrom. It kept burning and leaving a caramelized mess on the grill. I got so frustrated that I took some of the samples to an independent lab for testing, and guess what, it did have dextrose in it. By that point, the opportunity was basically lost. For some reason, I took that one harder than most. I had put a lot into it over several months and lost the opportunity because someone else was trying to save a couple cents.

As for the sweetness, I personally perceive the sweetness about the same as sucrose when tasted straight. However, when used as an ingredient, it is not as sweet. Make two batches of lemonade with equal quantities of dextrose in one and sucrose in the other, and I think you will taste the difference. Sweetness can be easily managed however.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A from Arnhem that are 1000X sweeter than sucrose. I touched it with my finger and tasted the dust that stuck, and it was like someone was pouring high fructose corn syrup into my mouth. Later that night when I was brushing my teeth, some of the molecules that were stuck under my gums came out and it was like I just drank sugar water.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2011, 05:44:06 PM
The differences between sucrose vs. dextrose that caused me so many headaches had mostly to do with the very different browning/burning characteristics of the two at the high temperatures you experience on a griddle. It was a very high volume opportunity for a rather specialized product. I don't think the R&D team working on it really ever grasped the importance. Dextrose is a lot less expensive than sugar, so they love it and want to put it in everything. They were telling me "no dextrose," but the product would not perfrom. It kept burning and leaving a caramelized mess on the grill. I got so frustrated that I took some of the samples to an independent lab for testing, and guess what, it did have dextrose in it. By that point, the opportunity was basically lost. For some reason, I took that one harder than most. I had put a lot into it over several months and lost the opportunity because someone else was trying to save a couple cents.

As for the sweetness, I personally perceive the sweetness about the same as sucrose when tasted straight. However, when used as an ingredient, it is not as sweet. Make two batches of lemonade with equal quantities of dextrose in one and sucrose in the other, and I think you will taste the difference. Sweetness can be easily managed however.

On the other end of the spectrum, there are some exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A from Arnhem that are 1000X sweeter than sucrose. I touched it with my finger and tasted the dust that stuck, and it was like someone was pouring high fructose corn syrup into my mouth. Later that night when I was brushing my teeth, some of the molecules that were stuck under my gums came out and it was like I just drank sugar water.

CL

Craig,

That was an interesting story about the product you were trying to develop, and how dextrose made the product burn and leave a caramelized mess on the grill.  Sorry, that you lost that opportunity because of dextrose.  It sounds like you have been developing many products including your delicious pizzas.  I didn’t know you did so much research.

I will make two batches of lemonade and see how the sweetness compares with using sugar or dextrose in equal amounts.  It is also interesting to hear exotic sweeteners citrus extract such as Oh So Sweet+Reb A.  I never knew there are so many ingredients that can be added to food, until I also started to learn more about different mixes.  You are way far ahead of me in understanding everything.  I never even thought about dextrose before this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 13, 2011, 07:57:55 PM
I didn’t know you did so much research.

I spent 18 years in the food business in restaurant management, food sales, marketing, brokerage, and manufacturing.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2011, 08:34:52 PM
I spent 18 years in the food business in restaurant management, food sales, marketing, brokerage, and manufacturing.

CL

Craig,

What you have done in 18 years is very impressive!  Congrats!  :) 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 13, 2011, 08:42:04 PM
Craig,

What you have done in 18 years is very impressive!  Congrats!  :)  

Norma

Thank you. I'm not sure about impressive, but I learned a lot. I should note that ironically, pizza is one segment of the industry I had almost zero experience in when I was in the business.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2011, 08:56:41 PM
Thank you. I'm not sure about impressive, but I learned a lot. I should note that ironically, pizza is one segment of the industry I had almost zero experience in when I was in the business.

CL

Craig,

I can understand how much you did learn from being in all those food related fields.  You sure have made up for the zero experience in the pizza field.   ;D

Thanks for helping on this thread.  I have no idea if there will ever be a successful pizza crust mix made or not, but at least so far GM products can be used with Peter’s “goody bag” to make different pizzas.  I have another Betty Crocker product I am going to try tomorrow with the added “goody bag” and also another attempt at a Sukie pizza.  At least it is fun experimenting to see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2011, 12:01:15 PM
Norma,

Since you have been investigating partially-hydrogenated oils, I thought that you might be interested in this article discussing saturated fats: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2011/6/The%20truth%20about%20saturated%20fats.aspx.

Where most of the work with hydrogenated oils has been taking place in recent years is to reduce the trans fats. They apparently are still a major concern as far as heart health is concerned.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2011, 10:40:00 PM
Norma,

Since you have been investigating partially-hydrogenated oils, I thought that you might be interested in this article discussing saturated fats: http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2011/6/The%20truth%20about%20saturated%20fats.aspx.

Where most of the work with hydrogenated oils has been taking place in recent years is to reduce the trans fats. They apparently are still a major concern as far as heart health is concerned.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the article from bakingbusiness.com.  It says in that article that genetics do play a major role in how fats will affect different people.  I believe many people are concerned about any fats in foods. 

I did email Laura again at Abitec Corporations yesterday and asked her other questions about the products she sent me.  This is what I asked and what she replied.

Laura,
 
I wondered if I could ask you another question about the Sterotex HM and SterotecK samples you sent me..  I am wondering if they are 100%  fully hydrogenated oils, or are they partially-hydrogenated, meaning there is another carrier.  Are your products also spray dried?  I am trying to learn how these products then can help to keep something like a pizza crust mix stable.
 
Thanks,
 
Norma

Hi Norma,
 
The products are fully hydrogenated.  They are “spray chilled” rather than spray dried.  Rather than applying heat, we apply cold to solidify the product, then “prill” it into the very fine powder you received.  We are not adding BHA or BHT or other preservatives and generally have a one year shelf life recommendation.  Hope this helps.
 
Laura

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 09:36:10 AM
Another Sukie mystery pizza was made yesterday, using the Betty Crocker Blueberry muffin mix, in combination with Peter’s “goody bag”.  This time I used 145 grams of water in the mix, but think from experimenting with these different mixes in combination with the “goody bags”, there needs to be more water added.  When the dough is mixed, it seems very sticky, but after letting this dough ferment at room temperature for 2 hrs., the dough does get drier.  That is why I think more water needs to be added in the beginning of the mix.  I will see after more experiments, if this is true.  The final blueberry Sukie pizza did turn out well, but I think there would have been more oven spring if I had added more water to the mix.  

The dressings for this Sukie pizza was reduced sugar strawberry preserves and after the bake fresh blueberries and strawberries were added.  All the near stand holders to me, are always asking when I am going to make another dessert Sukie pizza. They all love the samples. Even customers that go by, are interested in the dessert Sukie pizzas.  

I am learning to make Greek Yogurt (with a milk kefir starter, to sell at market), and think if I have it perfected until the next Sukie dessert pizza I make, I might try that as a dressing.  I really love Greek yogurt, but don’t know how that will hold up to the heat of an oven.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 09:40:33 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 09:43:17 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 09:45:06 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 11:38:00 AM
This was my next attempt to make a pizza crust mix pizza.  The things I changed in this attempt was I used 220 grams of KABF and 111.7 grams of Purasnow cake flour.  I also used dried egg white powder, instead of using part of a fresh egg.  The reason I switched the bread flour higher in the amounts of ingredients to the cake flour was the dough had felt too much like a pie crust, in my last attempt.  I also wanted to try out the dried egg whites to see what would happen.  I kept the rest of my ingredients the same.  I forgot to bring my notes home from market as to how much water I added, but think I could have added more water.  My reasoning for adding more water, was in lines with my last post of how the mixtures of ingredients want to absorb water when letting it ferment for awhile.  This dough also felt too dry.  It can be seen on the pictures the rim was too dense and dry, but where the sauce and cheese was applied the dough did rise better.  I think in my next attempt, I will add more water.  This dough was only left to ferment for one hour, before using it to make a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 11:41:51 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 11:43:40 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 15, 2011, 02:29:15 PM
This was my next attempt to make a pizza crust mix pizza.  The things I changed in this attempt was I used 220 grams of KABF and 111.7 grams of Purasnow cake flour.  I also used dried egg white powder, instead of using part of a fresh egg.  The reason I switched the bread flour higher in the amounts of ingredients to the cake flour was the dough had felt too much like a pie crust, in my last attempt.  I also wanted to try out the dried egg whites to see what would happen.  I kept the rest of my ingredients the same.  I forgot to bring my notes home from market as to how much water I added, but think I could have added more water.  My reasoning for adding more water, was in lines with my last post of how the mixtures of ingredients want to absorb water when letting it ferment for awhile.  This dough also felt too dry.  It can be seen on the pictures the rim was too dense and dry, but where the sauce and cheese was applied the dough did rise better.  I think in my next attempt, I will add more water.  This dough was only left to ferment for one hour, before using it to make a pizza.

Pictures below

Norma

Was there any yeast in this batch?

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2011, 02:44:35 PM
Was there any yeast in this batch?

CL

Craig,

I did use a fairly high amount of IDY in combination with Clabber Girl baking powder, in the pizza crust mix I was trying.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2011, 01:02:55 PM
This post is just to show a reheated slice of the Blueberry Crust pizza.  I put the slice in the microwave and thought it was delicious.  Nice flavor, soft and tasty.  As I have posted before on this thread, I don’t normally like when slices are put into a microwave, but these reheated slices are different.  More like eating a dessert.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 16, 2011, 01:49:37 PM
It's probably a pretty high fat content in the crust. It softens and moistens up nicely when reheated?

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2011, 04:16:50 PM
It's probably a pretty high fat content in the crust. It softens and moistens up nicely when reheated?

CL

Craig,

You reasoning why the crust was soft, because of the higher oil amount seems right.  When Peter set-forth the “goody bag” to be added to the Buttermilk Bisquick mix, the “goody bag” at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg137736.html#msg137736 also had more fat in some of the ingredients.

The “goody bag” seems to be working well with GM products to make pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 17, 2011, 06:59:13 PM
This post is just to update the water amount I used in the pizza crust mix at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg143187.html#msg143187 I picked up the paper today, that I had left at market Tuesday.   I used 169 grams of water in that mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 23, 2011, 09:49:29 AM
This post is just to update this thread about getting a sample of shortening powder from the Food Source, Inc.  I had posted last week I had emailed Adam again to see if he was going to send me a sample of the shortening powder to try and I hadn’t received a reply.  I called the Food Source, Inc. this morning and Sue apologized for Adam not sending me the sample.  I had asked Adam in my last email about getting a sample of baker’s grade buttermilk to, but he never answered me. I talked to Sue about what kind of buttermilk powders they carried.  She said they have Buttermilk Shortening Powder Item Number: 1001402 and sent me the Specification sheet.  She told me about Buttermilk-Rich powder 1001100 and sent me the Specification Sheet for it.  I asked Sue if GM uses their products in mixes and Sue said yes, GM did.  Sue said the Food Source, Inc. is the beginning of the chain that supplies mixed ingredients to GM.  Sue said she would get me samples out today of all three products, in 1lb. bags.  In the return email Sue said if I had any other questions to just contact her.  I had the pdf. document for the specs of the 2 buttermilk products.  I also asked Sue if they carried dextrose and she said no they didn’t carry dextrose, , but said they do carry whole egg powder.  Sue said the shortening powder and the buttermilk powders will be sent from our dairy today and the whole egg powder will be shipped from their office today.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 24, 2011, 10:16:49 PM
I received the Free Flowing Dried Whole Egg sample from the Food Source, Inc. today.  I had called Clabber Girl yesterday to see if I could get some samples of the ingredients (sodium bicarbonate, sodium aluminum sulfate, and Monocalicium phosphate) alone without them being mixed, but the lady I spoke to said she would have to check with sales or the lab and she would either email me or get back to me by phone.  I haven’t received a phone call or an email today.  I will wait until next week and get back to Clabber Girl.  I also called GCI Ingredients yesterday and all I got was Ingrid’s voice mail.  I left a message and haven’t heard back from her.  I also will call Ingrid back again next week.

Pictures of egg powder.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2011, 10:28:04 PM
I'm curious what the egg powder tastes like?
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 24, 2011, 11:03:41 PM
I'm curious what the egg powder tastes like?


Craig,

I just opened the egg powder to taste and don’t know why “fumble fingers me” tipped the container of egg powder all over the kitchen table, some on my floor, chairs, red beets and small red potatoes, but the dried egg powder tastes like the yolks of cooked eggs.  I tasted about a teaspoon and at first it was really dry in my mouth,  but then melted.  It does taste like eggs. 

Picture of my mess!  Isn’t it crazy what we will do to be able to make pizza?  Now to clean up the rest of the mess.  At least I got my eggs for today, or guess I did.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2011, 11:27:47 PM
Isn’t it crazy what we will do to be able to make pizza?

I'm sure it seems that way to those on the oustide, but we know why we do it.

CL
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 06:04:33 PM
I'm sure it seems that way to those on the oustide, but we know why we do it.

CL

Craig,

You are right, only we know why we do all this stuff for pizza!  :-D  At least it's fun to experiment and find out what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 06:08:16 PM
I received the samples of Sweet Cream Buttermilk, Buttermilk Shortening, and Shortening Powder from Bluegrass Dairy and Food today.  I guess that is the Dairy that Sue said the ingredients would be sent from.  I still am not sure if these are the kinds of ingredients GM might be using in their mixes.

Picture of ingredients

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: texmex on June 28, 2011, 01:57:15 PM
Norma, those little piggies made me LOL.   :D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 28, 2011, 09:33:06 PM
Norma, those little piggies made me LOL.   :D

texmex,

Glad to be able to give you a chuckle!  :) Those little piggies were supposed to represent Sukie the pig.  They used Sukie’s ear to make a silk purse.  No one thought it could be done, but in the end they did make a Silk Purse out of a Sow’s ear.  At least for me, I never thought pizzas could be made from GM mixes, but it happened.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 30, 2011, 04:23:55 PM
I did call Clabber Girl again today, to see if I could find out anything more about getting the ingredients that are in the Clabber Girl baking powder separately.  I didn’t have any success.  The lady that answered the phone transferred me to customer service and the lady (Shannon)  pulled up my file about other times I had called.  She asked me if I was working in combination with someone else on my project and I said no, I was working on it alone.  She said I can’t get any samples or buy any of the stand alone ingredients of Clabber Girl because of  proprietary reasons.  I asked her where I might be able to find suppliers of their ingredients and she said that was also proprietary and I would need to find them myself.

I have called Ingrid at GCI Ingredients two more times and keep getting a voice mail.  I left another message today and also asked if I should fill out the contact form at GCI Ingredients.

Looks like I am not getting anywhere with buying stand alone ingredients for a natural leavening system.

Norma 
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 30, 2011, 06:01:52 PM
Those little piggies were supposed to represent Sukie the pig. 

And all this time, I thought you were making really big pizza!  :-D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 30, 2011, 09:45:09 PM
And all this time, I thought you were making really big pizza!  :-D

Craig,

Didn’t even you know that part of this thread was about Sukie and giving her ear so something like a silk purse could be possible?  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 11:03:20 AM
I sent Ingrid an email at the end of last week, from the contact page at GCIngredients. http://www.gcingredients.com/contactus.html. since I have left her two voice mails and she hasn’t called me back.  I explained everything to her in an email.  Hopefully she will contact me about the ingredients for a chemical leavening system I would like to try in a pizza crust mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on July 12, 2011, 07:16:56 PM
Norma,,

I thought that you (and possibly other members who have been following this thread) may be interested in the BakingBusiness.com article on sodium and salt at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Features/2011/7/A%20Grain%20of%20Salt.aspx. The article addresses the desire on the part of health officials and professionals to reduce sodium in peoples' diets but how doing so poses challenges to bakers because of the strong functional role that salt plays in yeasted dough products and that sodium plays in chemical leavening systems. You will note that the article also discusses some of the alternatives to sodium-based chemical leavening systems. I have seen very few signs of such alternatives in the mixes that we have been studying.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 10:14:37 PM
Norma,,

I thought that you (and possibly other members who have been following this thread) may be interested in the BakingBusiness.com article on sodium and salt at http://www.bakingbusiness.com/Features/Formulating%20and%20R%20and%20D/2011/7/A%20Grain%20of%20Salt.aspx. The article addresses the desire on the part of health officials and professionals to reduce sodium in peoples' diets but how doing so poses challenges to bakers because of the strong functional role that salt plays in yeasted dough products and that sodium plays in chemical leavening systems. You will note that the article also discusses some of the alternatives to sodium-based chemical leavening systems. I have seen very few signs of such alternatives in the mixes that we have been studying.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting the link to the interesting article about reducing salt in different bakery products.  I didn’t even realize until you posted the article, that chemical leavening systems also add salt.  I don’t know why I didn’t think about that before.  I also didn’t know the researchers found that reducing salt levels to as low as 1.8%  helped not only achieve sodium reduction but also save energy through shorter mixing time while obtaining bread of good quality.

I  thought the part of the article that you referenced about according to information from Clabber Girl, up to 50% of the sodium in chemically leavened bakery products can come from the baking powder.  The part of the article about Cranbury, NJ-based Innophos supplies calcium-based leavening acids that can replace the usual sodium-based acids in conventional baking powder without affecting the process or product profile. Calcium-based leavening systems include blends of calcium acid pyrophosphate (CAPP) and monocalcium phosphate (MCP) and remove the guess work in formulation since replacement can be done on a 1:1 basis, and substitution can lead to sodium reduction of as much as 25%., is also interesting.

I haven’t seen many alternatives in the mixes we have been studying either, but somewhere I did read about other alternatives for double acting baking powder. 

I don't know if other members can read the article you referenced if they want to.  I did have to add my email before I could read the article, but I do get emails from BakingBusiness.com each Friday. It was easy for me to read the article.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on July 12, 2011, 10:28:09 PM
Norma,

I replaced the earlier BakingBusiness.com link to the article with another link (http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Features/2011/7/A%20Grain%20of%20Salt.aspx) that may not require registration to read.

Technically, the chemical leavening systems do not add salt, but rather sodium. That is what you see in Nutrition Facts.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 11:07:19 PM
Norma,

I replaced the earlier BakingBusiness.com link to the article with another link (http://www.bakingbusiness.com/News/News%20Home/Features/2011/7/A%20Grain%20of%20Salt.aspx) that may not require registration to read.

Technically, the chemical leavening systems do not add salt, but rather sodium. That is what you see in Nutrition Facts.

Peter

Peter,

The link you now posted doesn’t need an email.  Isn’t salt and sodium the same thing?  When I looked at double acting baking powder before, I didn’t think about sodium being like salt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on July 13, 2011, 11:09:23 AM
Norma,

Sodium (Na) is a metallic element. Salt, or sodium chloride (NaCl), is a compound formed by an ionic bond of sodium (Na) and chlorine (Cl). Baking soda, or sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is a sodium-containing compound and is somewhat salty and alkaline in taste but it is not a substitute for salt. When you see Nutrition Facts for a product like the GM Betty Crocker mixes that includes salt and baking soda in the ingredients list, the sodium listed in the Nutrition Facts is the combined values of sodium. This makes it difficult to reverse engineer just from the Nutrition Facts because it is difficult to know how to allocate the sodium to the different sources.  FYI, one teaspoon of salt contains about 2325 mg of sodium.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2011, 12:26:11 PM
Norma,

Sodium (Na) is a metallic element. Salt, or sodium chloride (NaCl), is a compound formed by an ionic bond of sodium (Na) and chlorine (Cl). Baking soda, or sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is a sodium-containing compound and is somewhat salty and alkaline in taste but it is not a substitute for salt. When you see Nutrition Facts for a product like the GM Betty Crocker mixes that includes salt and baking soda in the ingredients list, the sodium listed in the Nutrition Facts is the combined values of sodium. This makes it difficult to reverse engineer just from the Nutrition Facts because it is difficult to know how to allocate the sodium to the different sources.  FYI, one teaspoon of salt contains about 2325 mg of sodium.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining the differences in salt and baking soda.  I just never thought of the relationship before.  I knew I couldn’t ever replace salt with baking soda, because it does taste much different. 

I can understand when looking at the Nutrition Facts for something like the GM mixes, the salt and baking soda are combined values.  I also can understand it would be difficult to reverse engineer the combined values, in determining how to allocate the sodium to different sources.   I didn’t know before how much sodium is in 1 teaspoon of salt.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2011, 10:07:08 PM
Another mystery pizza was made today at market.  This time I used all commercial products in Peter’s “goody bag” that I received for samples. I had wanted to try out the commercial products in the “goody bag”, since I have received all of them.  All the ingredients in the “goody bag” were dry.  I had mixed the “goody bag” last evening and incorporated it with the blueberry mix today at market.  I think the commercial products did make a difference in how the final pizza turned out.  The dessert blueberry pizza did turn out very well, and the crust was especially good.  My taste testers that tried the dessert blueberry pizza did like it very much. 

The pizza was dressed with orange marmalade, fresh strawberries and blueberries. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2011, 10:09:26 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2011, 10:11:11 PM
Another "Sukie" pizza.  ;D 

Also some fresh heirloom tomatoes Steve gave me today.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2011, 10:13:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2011, 10:14:52 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Ev on August 11, 2011, 10:47:47 AM
Norma,
 I can't believe we forgot the pigs!!!! :-D
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2011, 01:03:14 PM
Norma,
 I can't believe we forgot the pigs!!!! :-D

Steve,

The reason we probably forgot “Sukie” or her offspring, was because you and Randy were being so bad (you both kept talking about the fake blueberries in the dough falling out, when I went to open the dough).  At least that is what I will blame in on.  :-D I had remembered when I uploaded the pictures, that we forgot “Sukie”, but didn’t think about it at market. Poor “Sukie” was still in the drawer, I guess wondering why we didn’t take her out for the special occasion.   :( At least my great-granddaughter and her dad did enjoy a slice of the “Sukie” pizza.  I did take the one slice home and reheated it last evening.  This is a picture of the slice reheated.  It was really good reheated in the microwave.  I know most pizzas aren’t good heated that way, but this one sure was.  Did you give your wife a slice to taste?

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2011, 07:04:08 PM
I am going to give another stab at the same dough formulation, I had used at Reply 303  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13686.msg143187.html#msg143187 
 but I did change the percentages of flours I used in the formula. I also used all dry ingredients in the pizza crust mix, so I can just mix it with water tomorrow.  This formula has 2 kinds of main flours, dextrose, whole egg powder, dried shortening powder, soy flour, dry sweet buttermilk, IDY, Clabber Girl baking powder, and salt. Should be an interesting experiment, since so many ingredients are in the formula.  I am not sure how long to let it ferment after mixing.

Picture of mix before it was shaken, and picture of all dry ingredients, after the container was shaken to blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2011, 12:02:15 PM
This post is just to report on how the “monster dough” Sukie pizza turned out yesterday.  All the dry ingredients added to the mix, in combination with the water, did seem to turn out better than my last attempt, but I do think more attempts might be needed in terms of more water added to the dough and maybe also changing or tweaking the flour ratios. 

I basically just added 6.83 oz. of water to the “monster mix Sukie” and mixed with a rubber spatula.  I let the dough sit a little to hydrate the flour more, and did hand knead after about 15 minutes.  The dough then still looked too dry so I added a total of 7.3 oz. of water. Not that much more water, but that is exactly how much water I added to the dry mix. The water used was hot.  The dough was then sticky, so I gave it a few stretch and folds.  The dough seemed fine, and I let it sit and rest another ½ hr.  The dough then looked normal, so I did ball and oiled the dough.  Altogether, the dough rested or fermented for 2 hrs., before the pie was made.  In hindsight, I think I should have added more water.  I don’t know if all the dry ingredients added make the dough drier after a while or not, but does seem that way to me.

A new friend that Steve and I are helping to learn to make pizza and stretch dough gave me the lovely peppers yesterday, so I thought I would add them to the “Sukie” pizza  pictures, because they are special too!

Pictures of the process and how the “Sukie Pizza” turned out.  “Sukie” and her relatives were happy to come out of the drawer yesterday to see their pizza.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2011, 12:06:23 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2011, 12:08:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2011, 12:10:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2011, 12:11:34 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 08:08:03 PM
I decided since I had so many samples of dry ingredients, I would try a clone MM’s pizza with them.  This time I tried another kind of sugar in the formula.  The dry mix was mixed this morning.  I mixed the dry mix with water, this evening, then let it sit for 15 minutes.  I then balled the dough and left it sit for 20 more minutes.  The dough and dough ball rose quickly.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  There even were fermentation bubbles on the skin.  The MM’s dry-mix clone was dressed with Les’s tomato sauce, part-skim mozzarella, baked pepperoni, and red and yellow tomatoes from my garden.  The pizza took 4 ½ minutes to bake in my home oven on the pizza stone at a little over 500 degrees F.  The rim was then brushed with butter and garlic powder mixed, then Red Cow Parmesan was sprinkled on the rim. There was a nice rise in the rim and the crumb was moist.  There was more sweetness in this crust than my other attempts, but I didn’t think the sweetness was too much.  I think, but don’t know, that I made another Sukie pizza.  My daughter and I thought the MM’s dry-mix clone pizza was delicious.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 08:09:22 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 08:11:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 08:15:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2011, 08:28:32 PM
Norma,

That was an interesting experiment. Can you tell us what size pizza and thickness factor you used? And how would you say that your "emergency" MM clone dough and pizza compared with the other MM clone pizzas you made, in terms of color, taste, flavor, texture, etc.? By any chance, did you have to tweak the hydration to create the same dough "feel" as your earlier MM clones?

Do you plan to try another emergency MM clone pizza at market to see how it performs using your deck oven?

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 08:55:00 PM
Norma,

That was an interesting experiment. Can you tell us what size pizza and thickness factor you used? And how would you say that your "emergency" MM clone dough and pizza compared with the other MM clone pizzas you made, in terms of color, taste, flavor, texture, etc.? By any chance, did you have to tweak the hydration to create the same dough "feel" as your earlier MM clones?

Do you plan to try another emergency MM clone pizza at market to see how it performs using your deck oven?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the MM’s clone attempt with all dry ingredients was interesting.  I didn’t use any TF, but used a Total Weight for the whole formula of 183.67 grams.  I just stretched the dough until I thought I had it stretched enough.  The color of this attempt was lighter in the rim as you can see.  The taste of the crust  and flavor of the crust was great in my daughters and my opinion.  I liked this attempt better than my other MM’s clone attempts, but then I never really tasted a real MM’s pizza, so I don’t even know if I am close to how their pizzas taste.  I used 73 grams of water in the formula because of all the dry ingredients.  That was a 73% hydration.  I do plan on another dry-mix test at market, hopefully this coming week.  I plan to use the same formula, with all dry ingredients.  I would have never thought an emergency dry-mix crust could taste so good.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2011, 09:02:34 PM
I used 73 grams of water in the formula because of all the dry ingredients.  That was a 73% hydration.

Norma,

The above quote means that you used 100 grams of flour. Is that correct?

Whatever you did, you did yourself well. Creating new recipes with the types of ingredients you used is not easy. And you did it the first time out.

Peter
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2011, 09:31:13 PM
Norma,

The above quote means that you used 100 grams of flour. Is that correct?

Whatever you did, you did yourself well. Creating new recipes with the types of ingredients you used is not easy. And you did it the first time out.

Peter

Peter,

No, I used 98.43 grams of flour and should have used 71.85 grams of water, but the water didn't seem like quite enough, so I added the extra water. 

Thanks for saying I did well the first time I tried to use an all dry mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Saturday Coffee on October 15, 2011, 01:13:15 PM

Norma's Pizza Mixes ...






 







Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2011, 02:37:44 PM

Norma's Pizza Mixes ...


Saturday Coffee,

Lol, Hopefully someday I will be able to make a quick rise, decent tasting pizza crust mix to sell at market.  I would like to do something different than the average pizza crust mixes.  The challenges besides getting the mix right, would be if people followed the directions right, and also I couldn't compete in price with all the big names that manufacture pizza crust mixes.  They all are big challenges.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 16, 2011, 02:54:38 PM
I mixed another dry mix for Tuesday this morning.  This time I changed the kind of powdered oil.  This is a picture of the dry mix.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Ev on October 17, 2011, 09:35:49 AM
I'm a lucky guy! I get to taste most of Norma's experiments, and I must say that they have all been interesting, to say the least, and excellent, for the most part. >:(
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:11:08 PM
The MM’s all dry mix with the different dry shortening powder was a success today.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:14:47 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:19:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:20:12 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:21:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:22:17 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:23:05 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:25:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:25:50 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2011, 10:26:28 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: Ev on October 19, 2011, 09:17:19 PM
I must say that for a quick mix dough and a half hour ferment, this pizza was impressive. It lacked some of the complexity of a cold fermented dough and was not as sweet as the MM dough, but still very good.
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2011, 10:30:26 PM
I must say that for a quick mix dough and a half hour ferment, this pizza was impressive. It lacked some of the complexity of a cold fermented dough and was not as sweet as the MM dough, but still very good.

Steve,

Thanks for thinking the dry mix pizza was impressive.  :) I know it wasn't as sweet in the crust as my MM's clone attempt yesterday.  I will see what I can do about the sweetness level for an experiment this coming week.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 19, 2011, 10:42:45 PM
I would think those little pigs of yours would grow faster with all the pizza they eat...
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2011, 10:57:07 PM
I would think those little pigs of yours would grow faster with all the pizza they eat...

Craig,

Lol, it was about time for those little piggies to eat again.  :-D  They didn't have pizza for awhile.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2011, 12:05:16 PM
I mixed another attempt for an all dry mix MM’s dough.  I changed the formula for the amounts of dry molasses, dried shortening powder, the type of sugar used in the formula, and the hydration.  If I find time tomorrow, I will try to add water and see if an all dry mix works out okay for a MM’s pizza clone.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: thezaman on October 29, 2011, 01:31:36 PM
norma, that pizza looks like a long proofed dough.looks like i need to go to the beginning for some awesome new ideas. i want to do a square pizza 9 by 9 for a holiday special with the last ingredient being dollops of tomato sauce any ideas??
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2011, 03:09:23 PM
norma, that pizza looks like a long proofed dough.looks like i need to go to the beginning for some awesome new ideas. i want to do a square pizza 9 by 9 for a holiday special with the last ingredient being dollops of tomato sauce any ideas??

Larry,

To my surprise. that last pizza I posted about did taste like it was a long fermented dough.  I did use a decent amount of IDY and PZ-44 in the formula, so the dough would proof and rise fast.  It was also a higher hydration dough.  The last pizza I posted about is in combination with my experiments, and other members experiments with the Mellow Mushroom thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.0.html

I am not sure if I am the best member to help you with an emergency dough.  Is that what you want to use?  These experiments on this thread are just teaching tools for me.  Let me know what you want, and I will see if I can be of any help.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:43:31 PM
My dry mix MM’s attempt was made this evening.  Since I had used a much lower hydration than I did before, I had wondered how that was going to work, with all dry ingredients in the mix.  I mixed hot water into the mix with a spatula, then balled right away, and coated the dough ball with corn meal. The mix looked much drier than my last attempt. The dough ball didn’t look really smooth when I did the ball.  The dough ball was left to ferment for 30 minutes near my oven.  

When I went to open the dough ball it opened well.  The MM’s dry mix skin was dressed with Les’s chunky tomato sauce, mozzarella, and cut out pepperoni to try and look like a pumpkin face.  The pizza baked well at a little over 500 degrees F, (in my home oven on the pizza stone, on the bottom rack) for about 7 minutes. I did brushed the rim with melted butter with garlic powder added and sprinkled the rim with Parmesan cheese after the bake. This attempt was for a 14” pizza.

The final pizza was good, but I think more water needs to be put into the formula because the crumb wasn’t as open as I wanted.  The taste of the pizza was similar to a MM’s pizza, but I don’t think it had enough molasses taste.  The sweetness of the crust was a little sweet, but I am not sure if it was sweet enough.  The bottom crust browned well.  The slices could be folded something like MM’s.  

All in all, this experiment did work out well.  I never would have know this dough was fermented for such a short time.  The  taste of the crust and rim were good.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:46:45 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:48:07 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: chickenparm on October 30, 2011, 08:51:10 PM
Norma,
You never cease to amaze me.
 :D

I really enjoy reading your posting and updates on your hard work.
 8)
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:52:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:54:37 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:56:02 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2011, 08:58:51 PM
Norma,
You never cease to amaze me.
 :D

I really enjoy reading your posting and updates on your hard work.
 8)


Bill,

Thanks, for your kinds words and saying you do enjoy reading my posts.  :)  I also enjoy reading your posts.  As you already know there is always something new to be learned about making pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:01:43 PM
Another mystery pizza today.  This mystery pizza would be good to serve on Thanksgiving for a dessert. It has both traditional pumpkin and cranberries. 

I first took some frozen cranberries out of my freezer that I had saved since last Christmas.  They were still good.  I made a simple syrup of water and sugar, then added the cranberries and cooked for 10 minutes.  I squeezed a lemon, and also used some zest from the lemon in the mix with the cranberries.  When the cranberries were almost finished cooking, I added black grapes that were sliced.  The lemon juice mixed with the cranberries, sugar, and grapes mixture had a nice taste after it was finished and cooled. 

I mixed the “mystery mix” with pumpkin in the mix, with Peter’s “goody” bag. 

The “Thanksgiving Mystery Pizza”, was dressed with the a little St. Dalfour Royal Fig, Grande mozzarella, and then the cranberry mixture.  When the pie was almost finished baking I took some ground pumpkin seeds (I had toasted from my Halloween pumpkin) and sprinkled them over the pie.  After the mystery pumpkin pie was baked, I brushed melted butter on the rim and sprinkled with Parmesan cheese.

The mystery pizza was bake on the bottom rake of my oven on the stone at about 500 degrees F for 8 ½ minutes.

Now, what member wouldn’t want this for a Thanksgiving dessert. The crust even had pumpkin pie spices in it.  Does anyone want to guess what the “mystery mix” was?  Being from Pa. it is always traditional to have pumpkin pie for Thanksgiving.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:02:38 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:04:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:05:28 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:06:28 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:07:40 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:08:52 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:10:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2011, 08:11:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on November 06, 2011, 04:12:44 PM
Since no one wanted to guess what I used for the mystery pizza dough, these are the pictures of what I used.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2012, 08:51:35 AM
I decided to try another Triple Berry Pizza with Betty Crocker’s Triple Berry mix with Peter’s “goody bag” since fresh strawberries are plentiful in our area now and it was easy to get blueberries, orange marmalade  and a lemon at market.  I mixed Peter’s “goody bag” Monday evening.  I was also hungry for another Triple Berry Pizza.

Well things didn’t go as planned yesterday, but the Triple Berry Pizza still was very good.  My taste testers really liked the Triple Berry Pizza and different people stopped when we were dressing the pizza to comment how good it looked.  I think we could have sold some slices, but we had enough taste testers and I also wanted to take a few slices home to my mom. 

To explain all that went wrong, first of all we were busy since the weather was nice and some school children are out of school.  Then to add to that, I gave Steve two plastic containers (one with the hot water in and one to weigh the water out), and he had placed the one container on the scales and weighed the water part of the formulation out.  I quickly grabbed the wrong container with the leftover water and put the wrong amount of water in the mix.  It wasn’t enough of hot water so I just added some more.  Wrong move.  :-D The dough then was highly sticky.  We put the plastic container up on top of the scale above the cash register.  Randy, Steve, Bill and I were carrying on and Randy (who said earlier he would never eat a pizza made like that) decided to pull the container down to look at how it was fermenting.  Well I guess the lid on the plastic container must have popped from the fermentation and Randy ended up dumping the dough onto a Sicilian pizza on the deli case and also on top of the deli case.  :o What a mess to try and get what we could of the dough off of the deli case and partly off the top of the Sicilian pizza.  There even was a little tomato sauce mixed in with the Triple Berry dough.  The dough was then floured some and put back into the container to let to ferment for a little while.  In the meantime we became really busy again and couldn’t make the pizza.  After that darn Randy said he wouldn’t eat a pizza made from that Triple Berry mix, he was then anxious for me to try to make it.  Finally, the Triple Berry dough ball was used to try and make a pizza.  It was highly fermented and very extensible, I guess from it fermenting too long.  The skin wanted to rip, so I just stretched it as good as I could and then put orange marmalade on as the dressing and just parbaked for a little and then put it on a screen to finish the parbaking.  It was then taken out of the oven and fresh cut strawberries and blueberries were added, along with the juice from half a lemon.  Then a little white granulated sugar was sprinkled over the top.  The Triple Berry Pizza was baked until the blueberries started to split. 

The resulting “Sukie” Triple Berry Pizza with Peter’s “goody bag” tuned out very well.  That darn Randy even liked it so much that he ate two slices.  I believe Sukie was proud as seen in the last picture.  ;D  Even though the Triple Berry Pizza didn’t turn out like before, it sure was good and I think my mom will enjoy her two slices.

Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2012, 08:53:09 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2012, 08:54:23 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2012, 08:56:10 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Mystery Pizza by Steve and Me at Market Yesterday
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2012, 08:56:38 AM
Norma