Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Ingredients & Resources => Dough Ingredients => Topic started by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 10:14:56 AM

Title: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 10:14:56 AM
I had ask sent an email to Caravan Ingredients at Reply 98 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13385.msg136195.html#msg136195 and then had conversations with Edna about obtaining some samples for tests in pizza dough with some of the commercial dough enzymes or enchancers, I did have follow-up emails with Edna and she had requested samples for me to do tests.  I didnít know it, but a couple of days ago, Edna did reply in an email that she was going to send me cases of the commercial products for me to do tests in pizza dough.  I didnít have any idea of what cases would be.  This morning FedEx delivered the 50 lb. cases of products for me to sample.  They are Stretch-Out, EL-7 and Dough Freeze .  Edna also said I would be getting a case of Fridge soft for tests, but I didnít get that today.  

I donít know if any members will be interested in these commercial products or the tests that will be done in pizza dough with these products, but maybe someday they might become available to others members or the tests might be useful, if anyone wants to know more about these products.

If anyone wants more information about these products I can supply the data and facts about these products.  

Receiving these 50 lb. cases of these products will supply me with enough tests to keep me busy for a long while.  Hopefully these products will lead to some interesting experiments and maybe improvements in pizza dough.

These products do mostly say how much of the product to add to 100 lbs. of flour.  I donít even know how to go about starting to do tests on these products.  I donít know what I will learn from these experiments with these products, but it could be a learning experience for me and other members, if anyone is interested.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: chickenparm on May 12, 2011, 08:26:04 PM
Wow,thats alot of stuff there! I look forward to any experiments you try or do.They are always good reading.

 :)
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 09:50:24 PM
Wow,thats alot of stuff there! I look forward to any experiments you try or do.They are always good reading.

 :)

Bill,

I agree that is a lot of products for experiments.  I never thought I would get 50 lb. boxes to do experiments with. I didnít look at how heavy the boxes were, but when I went to lift them from the patio, I thought of my word are they ever heavy.  Thanks for saying you look forward to my experiments.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2011, 10:05:41 PM
Norma,

Edna probably saw all of the pizzas that you have featured on your blog and concluded that you are a real pizza making machine and will need more than just a small sample size of their products. Or maybe she figures that her company and its products will get a lot of publicity on the forum.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: chickenparm on May 12, 2011, 10:14:37 PM
Norma,

I had this funny scenario in mind,using some enhanced dough ingredients to make doughs super elastic or super extensible.Maybe like a silly commercial would film it as such.

It goes something like this...."Can your dough Do THIS? "

"Pizza maker stretches what seems to be an ordinary dough out by hand,then throws it up into the air to spin it.It spins and grows so large in size, it falls down on top of his head and covers his entire body down to the floor!"
 :-D

Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 10:28:44 PM
Norma,

Edna probably saw all of the pizzas that you have featured on your blog and concluded that you are a real pizza making machine and will need more than just a small sample size of their products. Or maybe she figures that her company and its products will get a lot of publicity on the forum.

Peter

Peter,

I did give Edna a link to my pizza blog, but didnít tell her I am here on the forum.  I am sure if she did look at my pizza blog, she saw how many kinds of pizzas I have attempted, and also saw the links back here to the forum.  I also told Edna about the homemade dough enhancers I was experimenting with.  Even the Sukie pizza with your ďgoody bagĒ, I told Edna about, recently.  Edna said after I start the experiments, she would be really interested in hearing how they are going. 

I donít know if I am a pizza making machine..lol.., but with all the products she sent me, I could go on for a really long time trying experiments.  I donít know how many members will be able to try out these products, but after I start the tests, if any of them work out, I would be glad to send other members some samples to try if they want to try some.

Do you have any suggestions where I should start in the experiments with these products?  I didnít open the boxes yet, so I have no idea what they look like. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2011, 10:32:26 PM
Norma,

I had this funny scenario in mind,using some enhanced dough ingredients to make doughs super elastic or super extensible.Maybe like a silly commercial would film it as such.

It goes something like this...."Can your dough Do THIS? "

"Pizza maker stretches what seems to be an ordinary dough out by hand,then throws it up into the air to spin it.It spins and grows so large in size, it falls down on top of his head and covers his entire body down to the floor!"
 :-D



Bill,

Lol, you always make me chuckle.  :-D If one of these products do what you have explained, I will be sure to dedicate a post to you with pictures of the dough draped over me.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2011, 11:06:57 PM
Do you have any suggestions where I should start in the experiments with these products?  I didnít open the boxes yet, so I have no idea what they look like. 

Norma,

Since you recently did a lot of work on the Bisquick mixes, maybe the instant pizza dough product would be a good place to start.

At some point it would be nice to see a brief description of the Caravan products that were sent to you and what they are supposed to do. Recommended usage levels would also be useful. In some cases, especially if the usage levels are low, you may want to make multiple weighings of an amount of the products in order to be able to convert small weights of the products to volume measurements, as you did recently with some of your dough enhancer blends. That conversion data will allow you to use one of the fields in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2011, 08:55:52 AM
Norma,

Since you recently did a lot of work on the Bisquick mixes, maybe the instant pizza dough product would be a good place to start.

At some point it would be nice to see a brief description of the Caravan products that were sent to you and what they are supposed to do. Recommended usage levels would also be useful. In some cases, especially if the usage levels are low, you may want to make multiple weighings of an amount of the products in order to be able to convert small weights of the products to volume measurements, as you did recently with some of your dough enhancer blends. That conversion data will allow you to use one of the fields in the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter


Peter or anyone else that is interested: These are the descriptions of the products, ingredients, and usage.

Dough Freeze 2

Description:  is a concentrated dough conditioner and improver that extends freezer life and promotes the full recovery of frozen doughs.

Features:

1.  Dough Freeze 2 is designed to be used for extended, long term freezing with full recovery in size and flavor.
2.  Easy to use concentrate.  Use only 2 lbs. Per 200 lbs. of flour.

Ingredients: Wheat flour, Dextrose, Diacetyl Tartaric Acid Ester of Mono-and Diglycerides (DATEM), Contains 2% or less of: Soy Oil, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Data:  

Description: Dough Freeze 2 is a 2% conditioner formulated for frozen dough shelf life.

Usage: Recommended to use 2 lbs. for 100 lbs. of flour

Storage: Should be stored under ambient conditions in a clean, cool, dry place.  This product will give full performance for 9 months.

Free Flowing white powder, certified Kosher

Stretch Out

Description:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without ďsnap backĒ.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes

EL-7

Description:
EL-7 is a no-time dough ingredient specially formulated for doughs requiring extreme extensibility without ďshrink backĒ, such as pizza, tortilla and pita bread dough.

Features:

1.  EL-7 eliminates fermentation time using conventional equipment.
2.  EL-7 allows doughs to sheet and press-out with more consistent shape.  EL-7 reduces mixing        times.
3.  EL-7 will not affect the color or the flavor of your products.
4.  EL-7 increases the shelf life of tortillas making them more tender so they stay fresher and softer with minimal cracking.
5.  EL-7 improves the stretching ability for stringline production (French loaves) and help reduce        shrinkage during baking.

Directions: Typical usage level is 0.375-0.5% based on flour weight.

Ingredients: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Fridge Soft

Description: Fridge Soft is part of Caravan Ingredients line of extended shelf life products.  It is designed for anti-staling application in refrigerated, yeast leavened bakery products as well as other non-refrigerated bakery products requiring extreme resistance to staling.  It has also been found to aid shelf life when freezing baked bread and roils, while still providing that just baked softness.

Features:
1.  Reduces waste levels of prepared sandwiches kept in refrigerators and vending machines by keeping the bread as fresh as the filling.

2.  Ideal for industrial bakeries looking to tap the market for individually wrapped sandwiches and breads as this product will keep them fresh for much longer.

3.  Can be used in non-refrigerated baked breads and rolls to extend crumb softness to a ďjust bakedĒ freshness level.

4.  Used at 2-%, this powdered blend ensures soft, delicious bread, rolls and other refrigerated baked goods.

Ingredients:  Calcium Sulfate, Wheat Starch, Wheat Flour, Soybean Oil, Enzymes (wheat)

Directions: Can be used in any east leavened product at 2%-4% level based on flour weight.  No change in handling procedures. *Notes: The amount of FRIDGE SOFT required for a formulation depends on the bake time and weight of dough piece being baked.

I agree that since I have done work on the Bisquick mixes, and they are almost instant doughs, using Stretch Out would be a good place to start.  Do you have any ideas about what kind of flour I should use in the experiment, what hydration, or amount of time from starting the dough to the final bake?

In one of my emails to Edna, I did tell he about making the Sukie pizza and said some of the ingredients of the Stretch Out were about the same as the Bisquick Buttermilk biscuit mix and you had added a ďgoody bagĒ to the biscuit mix to make it possible to be made into a pizza.   I told Edna I never thought it would be possible to make a pizza out of a biscuit mix, until I did the experiment.  

I also asked Edna if Fridge Soft could be used to keep crusts fresh when in my heated humidified holding cabinet at market and she replied she wasnít sure how the Fridge Soft will react under those conditions, but would be interested in the tests, if I did them.

EL-7 is also supposed to be a no time product for dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 13, 2011, 05:19:27 PM
I agree that since I have done work on the Bisquick mixes, and they are almost instant doughs, using Stretch Out would be a good place to start.  Do you have any ideas about what kind of flour I should use in the experiment, what hydration, or amount of time from starting the dough to the final bake?

Norma,

You might want to send an email to Edna to get a general idea as to what kinds of doughs and flours the Stretch-Out product can be used with. However, I see that the information you posted earlier gives a pizza dough formulation, as follows:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without ďsnap backĒ.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes


Patent flour in the above formulation can cover several different flours but the hydration noted above would seem to most closely match cake flour. However, I have seen low hydrations for flours with much more protein, including high-gluten flour, an example of which is the Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. But working with such a low hydration dough can be a real bear, especially with a home mixer like a KitchenAid stand mixer. Of course, you could increase the hydration and use a stronger flour, and otherwise follow the formulation given above but substitute IDY for compressed yeast. Presumably, the Stretch-Out product, which includes partially hydrogenated oil, would replace oil that you might normally use with your regular dough. The dextrose in the Stretch-Out product would be a substitute for sugar in the dough and, being a simple sugar, it would be immediately available to feed the yeast, much as occurs with the Bisquick and other mixes you played around with. The compressed yeast in the above formulation is 2.5%, but that would convert to 0.833% for IDY. That value is quite common for an emergency type dough. The L-cysteine would be used to soften the dough so that it is quite extensible. The mono- and diglycerides are fats (oils) and most likely are used for their common function as emulsifiers.

One of the things I would be interested in knowing, and maybe Edna has the answer, is whether any additional salt is needed above and beyond the salt in the Stretch-Out product. As you can see from the Stretch-Out ingredients list above, salt is the predominant ingredient in the product. If no additional salt is needed, a basic Lehmann dough modified to use the Stretch-Out product at the recommended 4% rate might look like this for a 16" pizza (using an unused field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product):

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.833%):
Stretch-Out (4%):
Total (167.833%):
356.61 g  |  12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs
224.66 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs
598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105
Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note from the above that I did not convert the weight of the Stretch-Out product to a volume measurement. The information you provided does not include that information, presumably because it is not nutrition information that is required to be recited. You would have to weigh a certain amount of the Stretch-Out product several times, note the average, and divide by a number of teaspoons that corresponds to the amount of the product you weighed. For example, you could weigh 1/4 cup (level) of the Stretch-Out product several times on your digital scale, average the weighings, and divide by 12. That will be the teaspoon weight.

For your information, the 50 pounds of the Stretch-Out product that you received will allow you to make 1600 Lehmann 16" pizzas based on the above modified Lehmann formulation. That assumes you don't spill any of the Stretch-Out product. I know you will be careful so as not to do that. :-D. Waste not, want not.

Peter





Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2011, 07:17:08 PM
Norma,

You might want to send an email to Edna to get a general idea as to what kinds of doughs and flours the Stretch-Out product can be used with. However, I see that the information you posted earlier gives a pizza dough formulation, as follows:

Stretch -Out is a no-time base for pizza dough , tortillas, Pita bread and other doughs requiring extensibility.

Features:

1.  Produces bread that stretches easily without ďsnap backĒ.
2.  Recommended 4 lbs. to 100 lbs. flour

Ingredients:
Salt, Vegetable Shortening (Partially Hydrogenated Soybean, Cottonseed, and/or Canola Oils), Dextrose, Corn Starch, Mono-and Diglycerides, Soy Flour, Contains 2% or less of each of the following: L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme

Pizza Dough

Ingredients

Patent flour                            100 lbs.
Stretch-Out                                 4 lbs.
Water (Variable)                       52 %
Yeast, Compressed (Variable)    2.50 lbs.
Total weight                            158.50 lbs.

Procedure: mix in mixer (low) 1 minutes
Continue mixing for 10 minutes
Dough temp.    78 degrees
Floor time 10 minutes


Patent flour in the above formulation can cover several different flours but the hydration noted above would seem to most closely match cake flour. However, I have seen low hydrations for flours with much more protein, including high-gluten flour, an example of which is the Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976. But working with such a low hydration dough can be a real bear, especially with a home mixer like a KitchenAid stand mixer. Of course, you could increase the hydration and use a stronger flour, and otherwise follow the formulation given above but substitute IDY for compressed yeast. Presumably, the Stretch-Out product, which includes partially hydrogenated oil, would replace oil that you might normally use with your regular dough. The dextrose in the Stretch-Out product would be a substitute for sugar in the dough and, being a simple sugar, it would be immediately available to feed the yeast, much as occurs with the Bisquick and other mixes you played around with. The compressed yeast in the above formulation is 2.5%, but that would convert to 0.833% for IDY. That value is quite common for an emergency type dough. The L-cysteine would be used to soften the dough so that it is quite extensible. The mono- and diglycerides are fats (oils) and most likely are used for their common function as emulsifiers.

One of the things I would be interested in knowing, and maybe Edna has the answer, is whether any additional salt is needed above and beyond the salt in the Stretch-Out product. As you can see from the Stretch-Out ingredients list above, salt is the predominant ingredient in the product. If no additional salt is needed, a basic Lehmann dough modified to use the Stretch-Out product at the recommended 4% rate might look like this for a 16" pizza (using an unused field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product):

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.833%):
Stretch-Out (4%):
Total (167.833%):
356.61 g  |  12.58 oz | 0.79 lbs
224.66 g  |  7.92 oz | 0.5 lbs
2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
14.26 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs
598.51 g | 21.11 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = 0.105
Note: No bowl residue compensation

You will note from the above that I did not convert the weight of the Stretch-Out product to a volume measurement. The information you provided does not include that information, presumably because it is not nutrition information that is required to be recited. You would have to weigh a certain amount of the Stretch-Out product several times, note the average, and divide by a number of teaspoons that corresponds to the amount of the product you weighed. For example, you could weigh 1/4 cup (level) of the Stretch-Out product several times on your digital scale, average the weighings, and divide by 12. That will be the teaspoon weight.

For your information, the 50 pounds of the Stretch-Out product that you received will allow you to make 1600 Lehmann 16" pizzas based on the above modified Lehmann formulation. That assumes you don't spill any of the Stretch-Out product. I know you will be careful so as not to do that. :-D. Waste not, want not.

Peter


Peter,

I will send Edna an email to ask her what kinds of flours and doughs the Stretch-Out product can be used on.  I will also ask her about salt.  I did see that salt was the first ingredient so that also made me wonder if any additional salt is needed. 

Thanks for explaining what all the ingredients in the Stretch-Out product would do to dough and also showing me what a basic Lehmann dough modified with the Stretch-Out product would look like.  I wonder how long a dough using Stretch-Out will take to be ready to be baked.

I will follow your instructions to weigh out some of the Stretch-Out product to be able to convert to Volume measurements.

Since I have been trying the Lehmann dough with my other homemade dough enhancers, I think it would be good idea to stay on a Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out.  I donít want a new formula to try and figure out how it behaves, such as Big Dave Ostrander dough formulation.  I already know how a Lehmann dough is suppose to be.  Remember keep my variables to a minimum.

Lol, thanks for giving me the information on how many modified Lehmann dough  pizzas could be made from the amount of the Stretch-Out product Edna sent me.  :-D I donít believe in waste, but that many pizzas would surely make me too fat. 

BTW, I received another package from Edna today, and this time it seemed really light.  When I opened the box, the Fridge Soft is in a plastic container (10 lb).  I thought whew, at least this isnít as much as the other 50 lb. products.  I then opened the packing list that was enclosed, after I returned from market and getting my Goya manteca, and it says 50 lb. carton of Fridge Fresh.  After reading it further, it says I am supposed to receive 10 packages, for a total of 60 lb.  :o I donít know if I am going to receive that many, but with all my flours, baking ingredients, pizza equipment, pizza stones, pans and all the related pizza stuff I have at home, plus these products to tested, I might need to move out and let my place just for pizza stuff.  I appreciate Edna is letting me test these products, but soon they will overtake me! 

Pictures of container of Fridge Soft.  Sorry the picture is blurry, but I thought I had it taken okay, but didnít.  I think this pizza stuff is overtaking me.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 13, 2011, 07:47:03 PM
Norma,

This is all quite hilarious. I can't imagine that Caravan can't use small samples for someone like you and your volume at market.

I agree with you that it makes sense to stick with a Lehmann dough if that is a viable option. Based on the dough formulation that came wth the Stretch-Out product, I think it should be a good option but it might make sense to wait to get an answer from Edna on the salt before proceeding further (unless you want to run a simple test anyway). I mentioned the Big Dave recipe only because I recalled that it had a very low hydration for a dough using high-gluten flour.

If you are able to use a Lehmann dough, I would think that the dough should be ready to use in a few hours. I noticed in this regard that the instructions for the Stretch-Out dough are silent as to water temperature. I take that as being intentional since if one were to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough at that temperature would be quite extensible in its own right and wouldn't need the L-cysteine or anything else to achieve that result. It may be that the Stretch-Out product makes using warm or hot water unnecessary. You might ask Edna about that too. I'd also like to know what the corn starch is for.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2011, 09:29:13 PM
Norma,

This is all quite hilarious. I can't imagine that Caravan can't use small samples for someone like you and your volume at market.

I agree with you that it makes sense to stick with a Lehmann dough if that is a viable option. Based on the dough formulation that came wth the Stretch-Out product, I think it should be a good option but it might make sense to wait to get an answer from Edna on the salt before proceeding further (unless you want to run a simple test anyway). I mentioned the Big Dave recipe only because I recalled that it had a very low hydration for a dough using high-gluten flour.

If you are able to use a Lehmann dough, I would think that the dough should be ready to use in a few hours. I noticed in this regard that the instructions for the Stretch-Out dough are silent as to water temperature. I take that as being intentional since if one were to use water at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough at that temperature would be quite extensible in its own right and wouldn't need the L-cysteine or anything else to achieve that result. It may be that the Stretch-Out product makes using warm or hot water unnecessary. You might ask Edna about that too. I'd also like to know what the corn starch is for.

Peter

Peter,

I also think small samples would be sufficient for a small business like I have for tests.  I do really appreciate Edna was willing to send me samples, but never though I would get this large of amounts of samples to try.  I did just buy another (non-defrost) freezer from a neighbor, for my other shed, so I guess some of these products can be frozen.  Now I just have to get a moving dolly to get the freezer, so I can put it into my other shed.  I donít think all these test products will be used in my lifetime.

I will send the questions you have about cornstarch, water temperatures, salt, time of proofing dough, and  type of protein flour to try to Edna tonight.  I donít know if she will answer before I want to try a test dough, but will wait and see.

If you think what I posted was hilarious, the chest I had those ingredients in front of is an old flour chest.  It is about 6' x 4'. The flour chest is made of one big piece of wood across the front and back. It has two top lids and other compartments, I donít even know what the drawer and bottom compartments are for. I also have an old dough box for mixing and proofing dough, an old scale with weights, old tin measuring containers and of course the UBM, plus other old stuff for bread making.  I think I could go into the old-fashioned way of making bread or pizza, all by hand, but then why would I need these new products to try.  I must have been thinking about either making bread or pizza in my former life, since I do have all the old stuff to make bread or pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 13, 2011, 09:57:45 PM
Norma,

I hadn't thought earlier to do any Googling on the Caravan products that were shipped to you, but I did a bit of searching tonight and found a website, at http://www.stovercompany.com/Manufacturer.aspx?PageID=9, where you can order most of the Caravan products online. I did a search at that website on Caravan products and saw that they sell the Caravan Dough Freeze product for $82.89 (50-lb. container), the EL-7 product for $78.80 (50-lb. container) and the Stretch-Out product for $54.46 (50-lb. container). I did not see the Fridge Soft product.

So, if you run out, you now know another place where you can get replenishments :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 08:44:25 AM
Norma,

I hadn't thought earlier to do any Googling on the Caravan products that were shipped to you, but I did a bit of searching tonight and found a website, at http://www.stovercompany.com/Manufacturer.aspx?PageID=9, where you can order most of the Caravan products online. I did a search at that website on Caravan products and saw that they sell the Caravan Dough Freeze product for $82.89 (50-lb. container), the EL-7 product for $78.80 (50-lb. container) and the Stretch-Out product for $54.46 (50-lb. container). I did not see the Fridge Soft product.

So, if you run out, you now know another place where you can get replenishments :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing a search about the Caravan products that were shipped to me for testing.  I had no idea how much those products would have been if I had purchased them, but it is good to know how much the products are.  As I posted before, unless one of these products do something really special to one of the doughs I will be testing, I donít think I will live long enough to use them all.  I do feel fortunate though, to be able to do tests on products that I never thought I would have access to, thanks to Edna.

Inside the packing list enclosed that I had looked at before, at the top of the page it said the Fridge Soft came from Caravan Ingredient, Inc. Grandview DC LAB, in Grandview, MO.  I looked up on the web about them and it seems that Caravan does have other locations, one being in Grandview, MO.  http://www.insideview.com/directory/caravan-ingredients-inc  I donít know if Fridge Soft is a new product they now carry or not.  I also see they carry sours for dough.  I hope I am not curious enough to ask about them.  I always wondered if there is anything that can make pizza have a sourdough taste without using a starter.  My being curious, usually gets me into trouble, because then it causes me to think more about that and that leads to more experiments.  I hope I can put that wondering about what the sours are to the back of my mind or erase them.  I already have enough experiments going on at once.  I think Caravan does have a sour base called Pristine Artisan Italian Base. ( Pristine Artisan Italian Base is artisan and flat bread base that is great for the production of classic European Ciabatta bread and rolls. It has a very good sour taste.)  It is listed under these products. http://www.innovadex.com/Food/Suppliers/Caravan-Ingredients/Applications/18259/18525/Bread--bread-products--tortilla and here http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:UPhvfmSaPIIJ:www.caravaningredients.com/_sana_/handlers/downloadfile.ashx?fileID%3D45bc6cc2-3a70-44d8-a5f1-da077b7834c2+caravan+ingredients+sours+for+bread&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESitvPszZZ2bc4mPY-U_ZeAQ9ZH-ZV7-YLGOZ92zBRq6JwzsIeHe6vDfpfWBcBsV_w7d9T6mfeZxvAlu_18QRkFc3906Oil-dqf8HQj57jhp1aOm6eprQN5Qvqt6vJK9vBCFZ343&sig=AHIEtbRYFcXqGcx-4O9N895h0PzBARnLcw&pli=1 Caravan does carry many products, some that really do look interesting.

I did email Edna about your questions and received a reply back.  This is Ednaís reply to the questions I had asked her.

Hello Norma,
The desired temp. coming out of the bowl is 78 degrees.  So a cold water would be best and if itís out in the work area you may need to add ice to the water.  No salt is needed it is already in the base.  This formula calls for a Patent flour lower levels of Protein than a High Gluten but you are welcome to use whatever flour best fits your project.  I am not sure why cornstarch was added to this base.  Happy Testing

Edna is a very nice, friendly person.  Even though she is really busy, she always replies to me.  If you have any other questions about these products let me know.  I did reply to Edna and told her I probably would be doing the first test on Tuesday with Stretch-Out, and would let her know how it went.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 10:49:50 AM
Norma,

Using the pricing data for the Stretch-Out product in relation to the Lehmann dough formulation I posted yesterday places the cost per pizza for that product at 3.4 cents. Some of the other products that Caravan sent to you have usage recommendations that are considerably lower than for the Stretch-Out product so the cost per pizza would be a lot less.

When I did my search on the Caravan products, I too came across the innovadex.com website. It looked to be a good source of product information but when I tried to see the data sheets and product information on the Caravan products, I saw that I would have to register to see them. Since I don't do that for a one-time view, I decided not to register. Anyway, I believe that you already have a lot of the product information that accompanied your Caravan packages.

I'm glad that you heard back from Edna. If I had been a bit more attentive, I would have noticed the 78 degrees F finished dough temperature. You would never get that low using warm or hot water. It is also good to know that the flour can take different forms. It would seem logical that the Stretch-Out product not be limited to only one type of flour and protein content. It also occurred to me that if you decided to make a Bisquick type mix using a low protein flour and the Stretch-Out product, you would still need a "goody bag" to make pizza out of it to get all of the ingredients at the right amounts. And you would have to use a leavening agent. I am not sure that it would be worth all the effort to come up with another Bicquick type mix. I will leave to you to decide on whether to use the modified Lehmann dough formulation I posted. I used it mainly as a guide to see how much of the Stretch-Out product would be needed based on the 4% usage rate. I did leave the salt out of that formulation based on the assumption that none would be needed, which I now see from Edna's reply was the correct thing to do. You should be able to tell from an experiment whether more salt is needed based on your experience.

Since we are on the topic of dough conditioners, you might want to keep in mind that a common dough conditioner used to help reduce "buckiness" in a pizza dough is PZ-44. As you will note from the forum's Pizza Glossary definition of PZ-44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, it, too, contains L-cysteine. That leads me to wonder whether the Stretch-Out product or even PZ-44 might be something for you to play around with to see if you can get your preferment Lehmann dough to be softer when you use a dough enhancer with it, which you earlier indicated leads to a stiffer dough than you would like and does not lend itself well to a one-day cold ferment. Tom Lehmann often recommends PZ-44 to pizza operators who have extensibilty problems and are unable to solve the problem through normal means. It is sort of a last resort solution. The problem seems to most often occur with high-gluten doughs.

Peter

Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 12:59:17 PM
Peter,

Thanks for figuring out from the pricing data, how much the Stretch-Out product would cost per pizza. 

I might try to register at the innovadex.com website sometime, to see what other product informations are or if I would be able find out more about the products I do have to test.  I didnít see where to register, but I will find it.

I think for right now, I will use the Lehmann dough formula you did post.  To try and come up with another ďgoody bagĒ for the Bisquick Pancake and Baking mix, would be a lot of work for you again.   

It is interesting you thought about using Stretch-Out or PZ-44 for my preferment Lehmann dough when using one of my dough enhancers.  Those regular Lehmann dough and the preferment Lehmann dough with the blends did become stiff after adding the blends.  That could be an experiment for the future.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 01:05:58 PM
I might try to register at the innovadex.com website sometime, to see what other product informations are or if I would be able find out more about the products I do have to test.  I didnít see where to register, but I will find it.

Norma,

A registration window popped up when I clicked on a link for a data sheet.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2011, 01:30:45 PM
It is interesting you thought about using Stretch-Out or PZ-44 for my preferment Lehmann dough when using one of my dough enhancers.  Those regular Lehmann dough and the preferment Lehmann dough with the blends did become stiff after adding the blends.  That could be an experiment for the future.

Norma,

Sometime you might ask Edna how much salt and also how much partially hydrogenated oil(s), by percent, are in the Stretch-Out product. Since the preferment Lehmann dough has salt and oil in it, that might enable us to modify the preferment Lehmann dough to compensate for the salt and fat in the Stretch-Out product and maybe also let us determine how much of the Stretch-Out product to use along with your dough enhancer blend (hopefully it would be only a small amount). It's possible that Edna may not be able to give you that information for proprietary reasons. But it can't hurt to ask, especially if it looks to be a viable option for your preferment Lehmann dough as used at market.

Using the Stretch-Out product would also give you some sugar (dextrose), soy flour and a few other things but that would be unavoidable if you use that product. The PZ-44 product does not contain salt or fat or sugar in any form, only some whey, which is perhaps a good thing for a pizza dough, or at least not a harmful ingredient.  But, I agree that this is something for you to try down the road. Hopefully, whatever experiments you conduct with the Stretch-Out product in this thread will inform us as to whether it would be a viable candidate to use with your preferment Lehmann dough. Of course, there is also the element of cost to add things to your preferment Lehmann dough, especially if you can't price your pizzas to absorb not only the cost of enhancers and other conditioners but also the escalating costs of your basic ingredients like flour, cheeses, pizza sauces, etc. I have been reading a lot of earnings reports of food producers lately, and also of pizza and restauratnt chains, and they have not made for pretty reading. They are all getting hammered by increases in commodity prices. Some are putting up their businesses for sale as a result, or exploring other altternatives, and some have entered bankruptcy.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2011, 06:35:12 PM
Peter,

The next time I email Edna, I will asked her if she knows how much salt and partially hydrogenated oil(s), by percent, are in the Stretch -Out product.  I am now sure if she will know that those question though, because she didnít know why cornstarch was added.  I could understand that information could make it easier to modify the preferment Lehmann dough to compensate for the salt and fat in the Stretch-Out product, so maybe my homemade dough enhancers can be tried in the preferment Lehmann dough. 

I donít know if I will use any of the products Edna sent in my preferment Lehmann dough.  As you posted and have been reading, the prices for flour, cheese (especially cheese), sauce and other products for pizza are really going up.  I try to use good ingredients for my pizzas.  Since I am only a small pizza business, I canít get the better prices that really large chains can get.  My rent at my small pizza stand is going up in June, prices for electric have gone up 30% or higher since January and now I have to make a decision if I want to use bromated flour instead of KASL.  I can get the ADM bromated flour from The Restaurant store for about 20.99 and the KASL is over 26.50 the last time I purchase it. Flour keeps going up in price. I donít want to change to bromated flour, but might be influenced by price. With the rising cheese prices and all the other price increases, I donít know what will happen to my small business in the next year.  All that coupled with higher gasoline prices for people to drive has to have an effect on what customers do or donít buy.  I have to sell a lot of slices of pizza to stay afloat.  Since my main business is slices, my business isnít like other independents, that sell more whole pies.  I canít really up my prices, because people come to market to find bargains. I also sell sodas, water, and other pizza related items, but the slices make up the majority of my sales. Time will tell what will happen. I would really hate not to have my pizza stand, but I wonít take a loss either. I also hear many horror stories from customers about not finding jobs and having enough money to pay bills, that coupled with heath care prices rising.  I know of many customers and stand holders that have had to cut out their health care insurances, because they have risen too high to pay them.

I also know other independent pizza operators in my area arenít doing as well as they were 2 years ago.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 08:29:54 PM
Peter,

I wanted to ask you a question about the Stretch-Out product.  I was just going to make a ďgoody bagĒ tonight, to then just add water at market, to make the test Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product.  I donít know why I thought the Stretch-Out was a powder, but just a little while ago, I opened the cardboard box and inside there is a big blue plastic bag.  The Stretch-Out product is almost like ice cream when scooping it out. It is also grainy. I tasted the Stretch-Out and it is really salty and leaves a greasy feeling in my mouth.  I now just wonder if I should measure out the Stretch-Out and put it in a separate container, until I add the water. and the other ingredients?  Do you think that would be the best way to proceed, or do you think it would be okay to make a ďgoody bagĒ with the Stretch-Out product included tonight?  I decided to use KABF since Edna said she didn't know about high-gluten flour, using the Stretch-Out product.

Picture of Stretch-Out product

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 09:04:30 PM
Norma,

I am not sure it will make a difference but I think I would personally keep the Stretch-Out product in a separate container and decide when to incorporate it into the Lehmann dough formulation (without salt) when you are at market. As you know, Tom Lehmann usually advocates adding oil after the flour and other ingredients have been mixed so as not to interfere with the hydration of the flour. That may also apply to a shortening-based product such as the Stretch-Out, even though we know that the Bisquick products with partially hydrogenated oils have all of the ingredients combined togther in the premix. However, the pizza dough recipe that came with the Stretch-Out product treats the Stretch-Out product just like another dough ingredient to be added to the dough. The accompanying instructions say to just mix everything in the mixer bowl.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 09:16:28 PM
Peter,

Thanks for your advise on what you would do with the Stretch-Out product.  I am going to keep it in a separate container until I mix it into the Lehmann dough.

This is the formula I am using.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 09:30:09 PM
Norma,

For the record, you used the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product and you did not convert the weights to volume measurements. Is that correct, or did you actually do a weight-to-volume conversion (using your scale) and so noted the conversions in the output of the expanded dough calculating tool?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 09:45:16 PM
Norma,

For the record, you used the Baker's Non-Fat Dry Milk field in the expanded dough calculating tool for the Stretch-Out product and you did not convert the weights to volume measurements. Is that correct, or did you actually do a weight-to-volume conversion (using your scale) and so noted the conversions in the output of the expanded dough calculating tool?

Peter

Peter,

For the record, I did used the Bakerís Non-Fat Dry Milk field in the expanded dough calcutlating tool for the Stretch-Out product and I did not convert the weights to volume measurements.  I was going to do weight-to-volume conversion, but when I saw the Stretch-Out product wasnít a powder substance, I didnít know how to go about the weight-to-volume conversion, because I thought if I put the Stretch-Out into a 1/4 cup measuring cup, how would I know each time if I had weighed it right on my scale, because I would have had to compact it with a spoon or something in the 1/4 cup measuring cup.  Would that have been an okay way to measure it?  I wasnít sure, since it wasnít a powder substance.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 09:57:09 PM
Norma,

I think I would just force some of the Stretch-Out product into your measuring cup (tared) to fill it as completely as possible, level it off, and weigh it. I don't think that it is necessary to do multiple weighings and averaging several weighings. Another way might be to melt some of the Stretch-Out product, fill the (tared) measuring cup to the top, and weigh it.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 10:34:49 PM
Norma,

I think I would just force some of the Stretch-Out product into your measuring cup (tared) to fill it as completely as possible, level it off, and weigh it. I don't think that it is necessary to do multiple weighings and averaging several weighings. Another way might be to melt some of the Stretch-Out product, fill the (tared) measuring cup to the top, and weigh it.

Peter

I measured a stuffed 1/4 cup measuring cup of Stretch-Out and leveled it off with a knife 3 times. The first time it weighed 77 grams and the second and third times it weighed 78 grams.  I then put some of the Stretch-Out on the stove on low and melted it.  To fill the measuring cup, it then weighed 84 grams.  I did take the 78 grams and melted it, but I had to melt more of the Stretch-Out to fill the 1/4 measuring cup, after it was melted.  After the Stretch-Out was melted it changed color.  It was almost white, before measuring, but turned a light tan color after heating. Even on low temperature the Stretch-Out looked globby.  I did tare out the 1/4 measuring cup first each time.

I just felt the melted Stretch-Out, since I posted this.  The melted Stretch-Out fells almost like a rock, but does break-up if I dig my finger into it.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 10:48:01 PM
Norma,

I wondered what would happen to the Stretch-Out product if you heated it. Since the product is intended to be used right out of its container, I would go with your weighings in solid form. On that basis, a teaspoon would weigh [(77 + 78 + 78)/3]/12 = 6.47 grams (0.23 ounces).

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 10:58:05 PM
Norma,

I wondered what would happen to the Stretch-Out product if you heated it. Since the product is intended to be used right out of its container, I would go with your weighings in solid form. On that basis, a teaspoon would weigh [(77 + 78 + 78)/3]/12 = 6.47 grams (0.23 ounces).

Peter

Peter,

I know the Stretch-Out product is intended to be used right out of the bag, or if kept in a container.  I thought is was weird how the Stretch-Out product melted.  The pan I melted it in, was very greasy after it was melted.  I sure wasnít going to taste it again, because the salty taste is still in my mouth even after I drank different things.  I really wonder how much salt is in a small amount of Stretch-Out.  I donít think I ever tasted anything that salty before.  I now wonder if the crust of the pizza will taste salty.

Thanks for figuring out what a teaspoon would weigh in solid form. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2011, 11:11:15 PM
Norma,

You will be using 14.26 grams of the Stretch-Out product. That comes to 14.26/6.47 = a bit less than 2 1/4 teaspoons. Salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product by weight. However, I have to believe that the salt can't be so excessive as to produce an essentially inedible end product. Maybe Edna will shed some light on the salt content.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2011, 11:31:22 PM
Norma,

You will be using 14.26 grams of the Stretch-Out product. That comes to 14.26/6.47 = a bit less than 2 1/4 teaspoons. Salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product by weight. However, I have to believe that the salt can't be so excessive as to produce an essentially inedible end product. Maybe Edna will shed some light on the salt content.

Peter

Peter,

I know salt is the predominant ingredient in the Stretch-Out product.  I donít think either, that the salt would be too excessive as to produce an inedible pizza, but never thought I would taste anything that was that salty.  I do have an email sent to Edna now with the other questions you had. I will follow-up to see if Edna knows enough about the salt in the Stretch-Out product.

I am curious about tasting a pizza using the Stretch-Out product to see how it compares with other pizzas I have made, in the terms of salt and also oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2011, 07:15:29 AM
This is the email I received from Edna this morning, regarding the questions I had asked.

Good Morning Norma,
 
By reading the ingredient ledger Salt is the main ingredients in this product.  Caravan will not release percentages of what is in the base Ė sorry.

Edna

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2011, 10:27:31 AM
Caravan will not release percentages of what is in the base Ė sorry.

Norma,

I can't say that I am surprised by the response from Edna but I was hoping that she might make an exception in this case on the salt content because bakers often want, or need, to know what is in their product, especially something like the amount of salt, which can sometimes make or break a recipe. However, since the Stretch-Out product has to work for its intended purpose (in this case, a pizza dough), I would imagine that the salt quantity falls within the more or less classic 1.5-2% range. It may even lean to the low side so that users can add more in case it is needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2011, 11:58:19 AM
Peter,

I told Edna in my email that I wanted to know if she knew how much salt and partially hydrogenated oil (s) by percent, was in the Stretch-Out, so maybe the dough I used at market could be modified to include another homemade dough enhancer I was experimenting with.  I told Edna my dough at market starts with a poolish and then told her how I went about letting the poolish cold ferment to then make the final dough later.

I guess they donít want to tell the ingredients by percentage so someone could exactly figure out how to make the Stretch-Out products.

I guess I will see tomorrow how the crust tastes (in salt amounts), after the pizza is baked.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2011, 01:57:28 PM
Norma,

Following up on Reply 21 in which I discussed how to treat the Stretch-Out product, I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever posted on how to handle shortening when used as part of a dough formulation, that is, whether it can be added directly to the flour or after the dough has been mixed for a while. As you can see from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, the answer turns on whether the shortening is in liquid or solid form. If it is liquid, then it should go in after the initial mix, much like oil, whereas if the shortening is solid, as is the case with the Stretch-Out product, it can be added to the flour. This suggests that you could perhaps combine all of your ingredients in a "goody bag" form if you wish. This would be consistent with the way that the Bisquick mixes are made. It is also consistent with the Caravan instructions for using the Stretch-Out product to make a pizza dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 17, 2011, 02:14:21 PM
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 17, 2011, 02:17:15 PM
I donít know why I thought the Stretch-Out was a powder, but just a little while ago, I opened the cardboard box and inside there is a big blue plastic bag.  The Stretch-Out product is almost like ice cream when scooping it out. It is also grainy.

It's mostly salt and shortening, right?

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 17, 2011, 02:20:44 PM
Peter,

I was going to do weight-to-volume conversion, but when I saw the Stretch-Out product wasnít a powder substance, I didnít know how to go about the weight-to-volume conversion, because I thought if I put the Stretch-Out into a 1/4 cup measuring cup, how would I know each time if I had weighed it right on my scale, because I would have had to compact it with a spoon or something in the 1/4 cup measuring cup.  Would that have been an okay way to measure it?  I wasnít sure, since it wasnít a powder substance.

Norma

The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 17, 2011, 02:31:30 PM
I guess they donít want to tell the ingredients by percentage so someone could exactly figure out how to make the Stretch-Out products.

Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2011, 11:51:26 PM
Norma,

Following up on Reply 21 in which I discussed how to treat the Stretch-Out product, I did a search of the PMQ Think Tank archives to see if Tom Lehmann ever posted on how to handle shortening when used as part of a dough formulation, that is, whether it can be added directly to the flour or after the dough has been mixed for a while. As you can see from Tom's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6110&p=38155&hilit=#p38163, the answer turns on whether the shortening is in liquid or solid form. If it is liquid, then it should go in after the initial mix, much like oil, whereas if the shortening is solid, as is the case with the Stretch-Out product, it can be added to the flour. This suggest that you could perhaps combine all of your ingredients in a "goody bag" form if you wish. This would be consistent with the way that the Bisquick mixes are made. It is also consistent with the Caravan instructions for using the Stretch-Out product to make a pizza dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the post from Tom Lehmann about whether it matters if shortening can be added to the flour directly.  That sounds good that the Stretch-Out product can be added to a ďgoody bagĒ.  That would make everything easier when making a mix or ďgoody bagĒ.  I just wanted to post that the dough and final pizza went well today with the Stretch-Out product.  Steve and I were both amazed at how fast a dough can be made and used, when using the Stretch-Out product.  It only took 1 Ĺ hrs. from the time the dough was mixed by hand, until we made the pizza with the Stretch-Out product.  The taste of the crust using the Stretch-Out product was very good.  I sure donít know how that is possible, but it was.

I will post the pictures tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 12:07:22 AM
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL

Craig,

One time Tom Lehmann either told me in a PM or somewhere that I posted on PMQTT, that  L-Cysteine wasnít made from hair.  He said it changed how L-Cysteine is made.  I think I posted somewhere here on the forum what Tom Lehmann told me, if my memory serves me right.  I will look tomorrow and see if I can find the post.

Can you estimate the salt and shortening content from the nutritional information? It looks like they are the only meaningful sources of sodium and fat.

CL

At Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 is where I posted what ingredients are in the Stretch-Out product.  I didn't get any nutritional information with the Stretch-Out product.

The best way is probably water immersion. Put 1 3/4 cup of water in a 2 cup measuring cup and then put in enough Strech-out to raise the water line (with the Strech-out pushed under the surface) to 2 cups. You will then have exactly 1/4 cup of Strech-out. Measuring out 1 cup of Stech-out the same way and then diving by 4 will minimize measurement error.

CL

Thanks for telling me how you would go about measuring the Stretch-Out product for minimal error.  :) It was easy to measure the Stretch-Out today.

Norma



Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:01:43 AM
Norma,

Did you ask if the L-Cysteine was made from hair or by mutant E. coli?

CL

Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 18, 2011, 09:35:50 AM
Craig,

This is the post at PMQTT that Tom Lehmann answered me about L-Cysteine. http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9046&p=63356#p63060

Norma

I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:52:13 AM
I was just poking fun as you had commented previously about it coming from hair. I'm not sure "synthetically" is the right word as it is producued via mutant E. Coli - not a chemical reaction which is what I would associate with "synthetic." Not that it makes any difference. Chemically, it wouldn't be any different than if it was produced from hair. They didn't change the method because somebody thought hair was gross. Using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for giving me more information about L-Cysteine.  I know using bacterial fermentation is less expensive.  You can poke fun at me anything.  :-D I don't mind.  I am always interested in learning something new and I had originally though L-Cysteine was gross.  I would use it in experiments though.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:55:18 AM
The Lehmann dough using the Stretch-Out product was an interesting experiment for Steve and me.  I cut the Stretch-Out product into the flour (with a fork) and used hot water to hand mix the dough with a spatula.  Steve suggested to let the dough sit for about 10 minutes, to fully hydrated the flour and other ingredients, and then it was mixed with a rubber spatula again, balled, then covered with olive oil. The dough ball looked like a normal dough ball.  Since I didnít have another bigger plastic container, along at market, we decided to use a red container I had at market. We couldnít watch how the dough was fermenting on the sides or bottom of the container, but felt the dough and looked at it, and decided to use it in less than 1 Ĺ hrs. after it was mixed.  

The dough using the Stretch-Out product was easy to open, with no stretch back in the dough.  It looked like normal dough.  After the bake, Steve and I were both surprised how moist the crumb was of this pizza.  It was light and also tasty. The Stretch-Out pizza even had oven spring.  That is quite a feat for such a short time mix and fermentation.  Steve and I talked about how easy the dough was to mix and also how it was possible to get such a good tasting pie, in such a short while.

I gave Steve some of the Stretch-Out product to take to his home to try.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:57:44 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 10:00:03 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 10:28:48 AM
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 12:24:18 PM
Norma,

It looks like a successful outcome. Did you detect any issues with the salt, either the crust being too bland or too salty?

I suspect that the large amount of yeast (0.883% IDY), together with the hot water, were mostly responsible for the rise in the dough and the oven spring. Using about 0.80% IDY and hot water are common for many emergency type doughs. The gluten cellular structure of such doughs is frequently not strong because the carbon dioxide production is so high and occurs so fast that the dough expands like a balloon, but a weak one that is prone to collapse if held too long. Since the pizzas are baked very quickly, before the dough can collapse or recede, you can end up with good oven spring.

I believe that what the Stretch-Out product does is to provide fat (partially hydrogenated oils), sugar (dextrose) and salt without having to add these to a basic dough recipe, and providing the L-cysteine to insure that the dough doesn't become "bucky". The ascorbic acid might help provide an acidic environment for the yeast, and the mono- and diglycerides help emulsify the fats.

There are a couple of things you might want to try in future experiments. One would be to try using high-gluten flour, as you usually do with your Lehmann doughs. The second would be to use normal water temperature, not hot water. Using hot water in a dough iself helps overcome a bucky dough condition. It would be interesting to see if the L-cysteine makes using hot water unnecessary. Maybe Edna can tell you if such is the case.

Peter

Peter,

Using the Stretch-Out in the Lehmann dough was successful, at least in Steve and my opinions.  The salt was just about right in Steveís and my opinion, too.  Steve mentioned that this was his favorite pizza of the experimental pies we made yesterday.  Although I enjoyed this pie and thought it tasted good, even in the crust, it wasnít my favorite experimental pie of the day.  Poor Steve, I told him to taste a little piece of the Stretch-Out and he also had the same opinion as I had when tasting the raw Stretch-Out.  He said he is never going to listen to me again and try something that he doesnít know about.  :-D  He also commented how salty the Stretch-Out product was even though he only had a tiny piece. 

I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.  Your understanding of everything that has to do with pizza making has already helped in this first experiment. 

Thanks for explaining about what the ingredients in the Stretch-Out do in a dough.  I find those explanations interesting. 

I am going to email Edna my results in this first experiment with pictures so she can see how this experiment worked out.  I will ask Edna if hot water is necessary to add to the mix.

In my next experiment do you think the first thing I should do is try high-gluten flour to see what happens?

Thanks for your assessment of this experiment.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 18, 2011, 12:28:02 PM
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 12:36:17 PM
Norma,

Exciting results.

What % by weight of flour was the Stretch-out?

C:

Craig,

At Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204 you can see what formula I used, with the Stretch-Out product being 4% of the flour weight.  I had used  the Stretch-Out product in the Bakerís Non-Fat Milk field.

Steve and I found it interesting how fast a dough and final pizza could be made, with no problems with the dough or final bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 02:42:11 PM
I had wondered why you had suggested the 0.883% IDY for the yeast amount.  Now I think I understand why you picked that value.  I wonder what amount Edna would suggest.

Norma,

The pizza dough recipe that came with the Stretch-Out product called for 2.5 pounds of compressed yeast for 100 pounds of flour (Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841). That comes to 2.5%. I simply converted from fresh yeast, which I assumed you did not have on hand, to IDY--by dividing 2.5% by 3 to get 0.833% IDY.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 08:49:29 AM
This is the email I received from Edna this morning about the temperature of water to use for the Stretch-Out product. I told Edna I had used hot water in my experiment with the Stretch-Out product.  I had asked Edna in my email if it mattered if I used really hot water.  I also told her I would think that a final dough temperature would be a better indicator of how the dough would preform. Included in my last email, I also had asked Edna about where to find Soybean or Cottonseed oil for another thread I am working on.

I had sent Edna pictures of the pizza made with the Stretch-Out product.

Good Morning Norma,
 
I love your results - - this is very reason I will have Pizza for lunch Ė LOL!   Your target dough temp. coming out of the bowl should be around 78 F.  I am not sure what the minimum is for Lentz Milling for the Soybean or Cottonseed Oil.
Lentz Milling
800-523-8131
2045 N. 11th Street
Reading, Pa. 19612-3159
 
Lentz is like US Foods Ė but they only Bakery Products.  You are lucky to have a distributor think Lentz in your State.  They carry all Caravan Products.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 10:25:39 AM
Norma,

Here is the link to the Lentz website: http://www.lentzmilling.com/. I believe that what you are looking for is a partially hydrogenated oil, such as partially hydrogenated soybean or cottonseed oil, or even a combination of those two oils. There should be nothing else in the compositions.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the Lentz website.  I will use the contact page on the Lentz website and see if they have the oil or combination of oils to try in my mystery thread.  I only live about an hour away from Lentz, so I will see what they carry.  If they have what you suggested, I could go there and purchase the product.  I probably would have to create an account first.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 11:52:16 AM
The Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, was experimented with the same formula I had used before, but this time I used ADM bleached and bromated flour as the flour, to see what would happen.  This time the dough, mixed by hand, fermented quicker than last week.  It was ready to be used in less than 1 Ĺ hrs.  I attributed the quicker ferment to the higher ambient temperatures at market yesterday, but I am not sure if that is why the dough did ferment faster.

The dough ball was very easy to open, and the final pizza did taste very good, with a decent oven spring and a nice moistness in the rim.  The only thing I could detect with using the ADM bleached and bromated flour, was the rim and bottom crust were much crisper, than when I used the KABF last week.  All in all, the Stretch-Out product does make a pizza dough really fast and the final taste of the crust is like about a 2 day cold fermented Lehmann dough.

Steve also got some interesting results with a Stretch-Out dough he brought to market yesterday.  He also tried a Stretch-Out Lehmann dough at home.  His formulas were a little bit different than mine.  Steve is having problems uploading all his pictures on his computer, but did say he would report on his results, when he can upload the pictures.  He used KASL in his experiments with the Stretch-Out product.  His first Stretch-Out pie was made at home and the other was made at market yesterday.  He took pictures of both bakes, so when he can get the pictures uploaded, he will post on his results.

Pictures of my Stretch-Out pizza yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 12:01:01 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 12:03:21 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2011, 12:23:32 PM
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2011, 02:49:04 PM
Norma,

Many pizza operators resort to emergency doughs when they either run out of their regular dough or something happens, like an overnight power failure, that renders the regular dough unusable. Tom Lehmann believes that one shouldn't ordinarily run out of dough with proper planning but he does approve of using emergency doughs as a result of something unexpected like a power failure. Usually the emergency dough is a version of the regular dough but with more yeast and hotter water. In your case, if you are satisfied with the Lehmann dough with the Stretch-Out product, that could become your emergency dough version for use at market. It is unlikely to be the equal of your preferment Lehmann dough but most customers, if they even notice that the slices taste different, aren't likely to balk, especially under the circumstances.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the idea to use the Stretch-Out product for an emergency Lehmann dough, if I would have a power failure or maybe one of my fridges wouldnít work.  I donít think the Stretch-Out Lehmann dough is as good as the preferment Lehmann dough, but it could work in an emergency.  I want to do a few more experiments with the Stretch-Out product, but so far I really like the results.

When I email Edna, I will ask her, if the Stretch-Out product can be frozen.  I never really had an emergency dough.  A little while ago, someone did turn the switch off at the one of the main fuse boxes and I donít know how long my electricity was off, but I was worried about my dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2011, 08:32:32 AM
I did email Edna pictures of my last experimental pie, using the Stretch-Out product in the Lehmann dough and also asked her if I didnít use all the Stretch-Out product within 9 months if I could freeze the Stretch-Out product to extend its life.  She said yes, the Stretch-Out product can be frozen to extend its life.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 07:22:23 AM
This is what happened with another experiment using the stretch-out product if anyone is interested.  For this experiment I used a Reinhart dough with a higher hydration and a fair amount of oil and honey.  The dough felt nice when it was being opened, and was soft, but keep stretching and stretching.  When I finally placed it on the peel, it want to stick and kept stretching. I still proceeded to sauce the skin, but when I couldnít get it loose from the peel in many places, I ended up with a blob of sauce and dough.  What a mess in the end, but Steve and I got a good chuckle out of what happened.  :-D I never saw a dough keep stretching like the dough did on this one.   ::)

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 01, 2011, 12:02:01 PM
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter

Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 02:11:08 PM
Norma,

That was a good experiment if only to tell you that you can't go too high with the hydration, whether it is the amount of water or the "wetness" that is contributed by the oil and honey. If your stand was hot also, and you didn't get the finished dough temperature to about 78 degrees F, that might also have contributed to the extensibility of the dough.

I would save the photos. You can show them to people and tell them that you field dressed a hog at your stand at market.

Peter



Peter or anyone that might be interested,

I might do that same experiment over again next week to see if the results I got were okay.  There were too many variables in the experiment, with the stretch-out product, using a Reinhart dough like John was experimenting with in his hybrid Reinhart thread, recently.  I first used really hot water, second, the market temperatures were around 96 degrees F, third, I let the dough ferment longer than I should have (about 3 Ĺ hrs.) and fourth, I didnít put the yeast in the dough for about 1 Ĺ hrs. later, after I first mixed the dough.  The dough was balled after a punch down and another reball. Steve had done an experiment last week and had reballed his regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product), after a much longer time. His regular Lehmann dough (with the stretch-out product) did behave fine after a much longer ferment and reballs. That is what I was trying to see if anything could be achieved with another dough formula, and still keep the reball after a few hours like Steve did.  I know I created too many variables, but at first the dough didnít behave badly.  I couldnít believe how it just deteriorated so fast.  If any members want to see what can happen to dough when it deteriorates, these are so good pictures to show them.

I still have to chuckle when I look at those pictures.  There was even dough on the floor at my stand with bits of sauce from me just trying to carry the dough over to the trash can.  That is how much that dough had deteriorated.  It sure did look like Steve and I field dressed a hog at my stand.  :-D If the sauce wouldnít have been applied I would have dedicated that post to Bill, because I told him if I ever could stretch the dough really far, I would dedicate a post to him, earlier in this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2011, 08:36:26 PM
I knew I had another picture to post about how the dough looked before using the dough ball with the stretch-out product.  This picture was taken after the second reball and rise.  I really think I did let this dough ball ferment too long, because there were bubbles on the top of the dough ball, which can be seen in this picture.  In first ferment, the dough ball also had the same bubbles before the reball.  Just found the picture I was looking for.

Picture below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 07, 2011, 10:41:21 PM
Well, the Stretch-Out pie experiment with the Reinhart dough went a lot better today, than my last attempt.  The dough was easy to open, but didnít keep stretching as my last dough did.  I only fermented the Reinhart dough with the Stretch-Out product for 1 Ĺ hrs. today and didnít add all the variables I did in my last experiment.  I also changed the flour to KASL this time.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 07, 2011, 10:44:35 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 07, 2011, 10:46:51 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2011, 09:21:58 PM
I had emailed Edna the pictures of my last pie I made with the Stretch Out product, a couple of days after I made it and also described to her how the pie tasted. Usually she emails me back, but this time she didnít.  I had also told Edna about the foul up I had made when I used the Stretch Out product and messed things up in the formula and also let the dough ferment to long on a hot day.  She didnít answer back on that email either. 

I think I am going to use the EL-7 product in a test Lehman dough on Tuesday.  I would have emailed Edna to see if she had any other instructions other than what were sent, that I typed out at Reply http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg138841.html#msg138841 but since she hasnít been emailed me back, I guess I will just try out a Lehmann dough and use EL-7 by  0.375% based on the flour weight.  I guess the regular Lehmann dough would be the best dough formula to try the EL-7 product on, but I am not sure.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2011, 09:47:29 PM
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2011, 10:44:56 PM
Norma,

I hope the photos that you sent to Edna weren't the "field dressed pig entrails" photos at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg141261.html#msg141261. Those photos might not make good advertising copy for the Stretch Out product for Caravan :-D.

I agree with you that the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a good choice to use the EL-7 product with. However, since the really active ingredient in that product is the L-cysteine, which ensures a less bucky dough, I think I would use a high-gluten flour. It is that type of flour that is likely to produce an elastic dough that should benefit from the EL-7.

By way of recapitulation, the ingredients in the EL-7 product are as follows: Wheat flour, salt, soy oil, contains 2% or less of L-Cysteine, Ascorbic Acid, Enzyme. Since you are using the EL-7 product at only 0.375% of the total flour weight, I don't think that there should be any need to adjust the total flour, salt or oil quantities for your basic Lehmann dough. One thing you might consider, however, is to use a much lower hydration than usual so as to intentionally create a stiff and potentially bucky/elastic dough. That might be a better test of the EL-7 product than using it with a more hydrated dough. If you use your regular Lehmann hydration, you might end up with a dough that runs away from you as you try to open up the dough ball. However, that might lead to another set of interesting photos for you to send to Edna :-D.

Peter


Peter,

I did send Edna the photos of the ďfield dresses pig entrailsĒ, but told her I had made some mistakes when mixing the formula and also told her I let the dough ferment way too long, because the temperatures at market were very hot.  I hope I explained to her in enough detail that it was all my fault that the Stretch-Out product didnít work like it was intended.  I also hope Caravan Foods didnít get to see those photos.  I had told Edna before I would tell her my results whether good or bad.  I also told Edna I will run the same test, using the same formula the next week to make sure it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work.  I then thought she would be satisfied to see that it was my fault that the Stretch Out product didnít work, in my failed pig experiment.   :-D

I will use a high gluten flour in the experiment with the EL-7.  What kind of hydration do you suggest to use?  I have tasted the EL-7 and it also tastes very salty.  I really donít think any salt will need to be added, but I could be wrong.  I also wonder if the soy oil in the EL-7 will be enough that I wonít need to add any oil to the regular Lehmann dough. It would seem like the EL-7 product does have enough oil, but I am not sure about that either.  I can make a ďgoody bagĒ again, because the EL-7 is a dry product.  I can only hope I donít get more of those interesting photos. 

On another note, Adam at the Food Source Ingredients, Inc. never got back to me if I will get any of the sample of the shortening powder to try in my mystery thread.  I did email him once.  Maybe food ingredient companies are getting tired of me experimenting with their products.  I will email Adam again or call him. 

Picture of EL-7 product.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2011, 10:50:48 PM
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2011, 11:12:27 PM
Norma,

What size Lehmann pizza will you be making and with what thickness factor?

Peter

Peter,

I plan to use the same size (16") and thickness factor 0.105, that I used at Reply 22 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg139204.html#msg139204

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 20, 2011, 07:34:03 AM
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.105; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 20, 2011, 08:33:46 AM
Norma,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to show you what I have in mind in the way of a dough formulation to play around with using the EL-7 product. For this purpose, I used an unused field in the tool as a proxy for the EL-7 and I assumed that the salt is Morton's Kosher salt:

High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.375%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
EL-7 (0.375%):
Total (160.5%):
378.5 g  |  13.35 oz | 0.83 lbs
215.74 g  |  7.61 oz | 0.48 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
6.62 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz
607.49 g | 21.43 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.106575
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note from the above that I used a hydration of 57%. Hopefully that will be low enough to give the EL-7 product a chance to show what it can do to make the dough softer and more extensible. I also used 0.375% IDY on the assumption that you might use a one-day cold fermentation of the dough. You can, of course, change that to whatever you would like based on your prior experience working with the Lehmann doughs.

I wouldn't worry about the effects of the salt and oil in the EL-7 product on the rest of the dough. To test the effects of the salt and oil on the Lehmann dough formulation given above, I did a few simple calculations in which I assumed first that all of the EL-7 product is salt and then that all of the EL-7 product is oil (which we know, of course, is not true). These calculations would have the effect of increasing the total formula salt from 1.75% to about 2.1% salt and to about 1.4% oil. These values are in the normal range. The actual final values will be less. As previously noted, the predominant ingredient in the EL-7 product is flour. But the critical component from an operational standpoint is the L-Cysteine, not the flour, salt or oil. I do not believe that Caravan would create a product that messes up a basic dough formula. Otherwise, they would have to tell users the percents of all of the ingredients used in the EL-7 product.

I did not convert the EL-7 to volume measurements in the dough formulation presented above since I did not see any conversion data in the information you provided on that product. You will have to conduct several weighings of a known volume of the EL-7, average the weighings, and convert the average to a volume measurement (e.g., a teaspoon). This is the method that you have used before.

Good luck with your experiment.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for setting-forth a dough formula for me to try using the EL-7 product.  I did go on the Caravan website again this morning and tried to find more information about the EL-7 product, but I couldn't even find it listed.  I also emailed Edna again.  I will see if she replies to my email.

I do plan on doing a one day cold ferment.  I will do several weighings of the EL-7 product and average them to then be able to convert to volume measurements.

Thanks for the good luck!

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 20, 2011, 05:57:38 PM
I mixed the Lehmann dough with the EL-7 this morning that Peter set-forth the formula for.  I used my Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed on speed one and two.  All the other ingredients were put into the mixing bowl and mixed before the olive oil was added.  The final dough temperature was 79.5 degrees F.  I let the dough rest for 15 minutes and then shaped it into a dough ball.  The dough felt soft.  The Lehmann dough ball with the EL-7 is at market now.  I did weigh out the EL-7 product 5 times in a 1/4 cup measuring cup and the average weight was 20 grams, so I guess the 20 grams is divided by 6.

I did get a reply from Edna at Caravan Foods.  This is what she replied to my email that I had sent this morning.

Hello Norma,
Donít you worry about a thing Ė I was in California at a food show and am really behind on my work Ė I cover 5 States and I am on over-load these days Ė lol.  I am grateful that you take the time to share your results and I must say sometimes itís 10 or 11 pm before I get an opportunity to review your e-mail but itís always interesting.  I have attached the EL-7 information for your review but a good starting point is .375 to .50% per 100 pounds of flour. Please let me know if you have any questions Ė Take care.
 
Regards,

Edna

The attached EL-7 information Edna sent me, was the same as I had posted before.

At least she isnít upset with me for making the slaughtered pig dough that sure didnít turn into a Sukie pizza.  :-D

Picture of Lehmann dough ball with EL-7

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 20, 2011, 06:32:41 PM
I did weigh out the EL-7 product 5 times in a 1/4 cup measuring cup and the average weight was 20 grams, so I guess the 20 grams is divided by 6.

Norma,

Since one-quarter cup contains 12 teaspoons, the correct divisor is 12. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 20/12= 1.67 grams, or 0.0589 ounces. For the dough formulation you used, the volume amount of the EL-7 product is about 7/8 of a teaspoon (1.42/1.66).

The dough ball looks good.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 20, 2011, 07:15:24 PM
Peter,

I made a mistake when I posted on my last post.  I weighed the EL-7 out in a 1/4 cup because I had taken my 1/8 cup to market.  I then just divided the 1/4 cup measurement in half for 1/8 cup.  Really the average of the weighings in the 1/4 cup were 40 grams.

I also forgot to post I did use ADM Gigantic High Gluten flour in the Lehmann dough with the EL-7. http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/USWheat/Pages/Gigantic.aspx

I checked on the dough ball while I was at market and it seemed drier on top.  I did oil the dough ball at home.  I guess I will wait and see how the Lehmann dough ball with EL-7  performs tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 20, 2011, 07:35:56 PM
I made a mistake when I posted on my last post.  I weighed the EL-7 out in a 1/4 cup because I had taken my 1/8 cup to market.  I then just divided the 1/4 cup measurement in half for 1/8 cup.  Really the average of the weighings in the 1/4 cup were 40 grams.

Norma,

Thanks for the corrected values. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 40/12= 3.33 grams, or 0.11758 ounces, and 1.42 grams is 1.42/3.33 = 0.43 teaspoons, or between 3/8 and 1/2 teapoon. Did I get that right?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 20, 2011, 07:43:28 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the corrected values. That means that one teaspoon of the EL-7 product weighs 40/12= 3.33 grams, or 0.11758 ounces, and 1.42 grams is 1.42/3.33 = 0.43 teaspoons, or between 3/8 and 1/2 teapoon. Did I get that right?

Peter

Peter,

You did get the numbers right.  It is me sometimes that gets the numbers wrong.   :-D  Sorry for the confusion.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2011, 10:53:50 PM
The EL-7 product did work as intended.  The dough ball was easy to open and before I knew it, I had stretched the skin to 18".  The pie also baked well.

The only problem was Steve and I both thought this pie tasted just like all other pies that can be normally purchased at most pizza businesses.  There wasnít much flavor in the crust.  Maybe we are getting to be too picky about the kind of pies we like.  :-D I thought the salt taste in the crust was too strong, but Steve didnít.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2011, 10:57:29 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2011, 10:59:01 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2011, 07:56:35 AM
Norma,

Actually, I think your EL-7 test was a good one. It showed that you can take a high-gluten flour and use a relatively low hydration to make the dough out of it (around 57%) and the EL-7 product will soften the dough to the point of allowing ease of opening. However, in your case, the EL-7 product may be a solution in search of a problem. By that, I mean that unless you have a problem opening up dough balls because of excessive elasticity, there really isn't a need to use a product like the EL-7. In your case, you allow a long enough period of fermentation with your Lehmann doughs to make using a product like the EL-7 unnecessary. But, if you had a bucky dough for some reason, the EL-7 product might be a useful conditioner.

The EL-7 product could even be used with your preferment Lehmann dough, or any other dough that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, and where the acid production is high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. Such an application would not be an "artisan" one, but the EL-7 product should solve or mitigate the problem. But, the benefits that come from using the EL-7 come at an added cost. In your case, with the free sample of the EL-7 product that you got from Caravan, I estimate that at 1.42 grams of EL-7 per 16" pizza using the formulation I posted, you can make 15,971 pizzas before you have to cough up the money for more EL-7. So, you may want to be careful as not to spill any of the EL-7 when measuring it out.  

With respect to the salt issue, that is an easy one to deal with. If you feel that the finished product is too salty, or your customers complain along the same lines, all you have to do is reduce the formula salt.

I do think that you and Steve--and your customers and food tasters as well--have been spoiled by the high quality pizzas you have been making and selling at market. As you know, there is really nothing wrong with the basic Lehmann dough. But, if you want to kick it up a notch flavor-wise, you have to do the sorts of things you have been doing with the Lehmann formulation, such as using a preferment, natural leavening systems or long fermentation periods. If you tried to serve your customers the basic Lehmann pizza after teasing them with your improved versions, I think that they might start picketing your stand.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 09:49:23 AM
Norma,

Actually, I think your EL-7 test was a good one. It showed that you can take a high-gluten flour and use a relatively low hydration to make the dough out of it (around 57%) and the EL-7 product will soften the dough to the point of allowing ease of opening. However, in your case, the EL-7 product may be a solution in search of a problem. By that, I mean that unless you have a problem opening up dough balls because of excessive elasticity, there really isn't a need to use a product like the EL-7. In your case, you allow a long enough period of fermentation with your Lehmann doughs to make using a product like the EL-7 unnecessary. But, if you had a bucky dough for some reason, the EL-7 product might be a useful conditioner.

The EL-7 product could even be used with your preferment Lehmann dough, or any other dough that uses a preferment or a natural leavening system, and where the acid production is high enough to cause a strengthening of the dough to the point where it is hard to open up the dough balls. Such an application would not be an "artisan" one, but the EL-7 product should solve or mitigate the problem. But, the benefits that come from using the EL-7 come at an added cost. In your case, with the free sample of the EL-7 product that you got from Caravan, I estimate that at 1.42 grams of EL-7 per 16" pizza using the formulation I posted, you can make 15,971 pizzas before you have to cough up the money for more EL-7. So, you may want to be careful as not to spill any of the EL-7 when measuring it out.  

With respect to the salt issue, that is an easy one to deal with. If you feel that the finished product is too salty, or your customers complain along the same lines, all you have to do is reduce the formula salt.

I do think that you and Steve--and your customers and food tasters as well--have been spoiled by the high quality pizzas you have been making and selling at market. As you know, there is really nothing wrong with the basic Lehmann dough. But, if you want to kick it up a notch flavor-wise, you have to do the sorts of things you have been doing with the Lehmann formulation, such as using a preferment, natural leavening systems or long fermentation periods. If you tried to serve your customers the basic Lehmann pizza after teasing them with your improved versions, I think that they might start picketing your stand.

Peter

Peter,

I also thought the EL-7 product did produce a good dough, that browned and generally was good, but as you mentioned the final product is about like a one day fermented dough.  As I posted , the dough did stretch out really well, and I think I could have stretch that dough very thin, if I wanted to.

Talking about ďBuckyĒ dough, I donít know why, and I was going to post this on my preferment Lehman thread, but a few times in the last two months, my preferment Lehman dough were very ďBuckyĒ.  Yesterday was one of those days.  Both Steve and I noticed how "Bucky" the dough was yesterday. About 2 weeks ago, the same thing, and also when I was trying a higher hydration with an extra reball.  No matter what we did the dough balls didnít want to stretch right.  This has made me curious about what could cause that.  I donít know if next weeks dough will be ďBuckyĒ or not.  The dough kept wanting to stretch back, but finally we got them opened.  When you have to keep making pie after pie, that can be bothersome.  Last week the dough was fine.

I had wondered what I am going to do with all the EL-7 product Edna sent me, but might try it on a preferment Lehman dough ball to see what happens.  Do you think that would be a good next test for the EL-7 product?  Thanks for doing the calculations to see how many pizzas I would need to make to use all the EL-7 product.  That is a lot of pizzas.  :o

At some future date, I would like to try some kind of really low hydration dough something like a cracker crust that needs to be rolled out to see what happens, in combination with the EL-7.  Do you think the EL-7 would be a good test for some of those doughs?

I also donít think customers, taste testers, or potential customers would think my pizzas would be as good, if I didnít used other methods like I am trying.

On another note, a man came to my pizza stand with another man yesterday.  I overheard him telling the other man, that my pizzas are good.  I thanked him and he said he had saw me on Slice.  When I asked him how he had seen me on Slice, he said he had recommended a pizza business for me to try in our area and had saw all the pizzas I had on MPM. He is also a member of Slice. He told me he is the head baker at Miller's Smorgasbord on the other side of Lancaster and he also experiments with many kinds of pies.  I was introduced to the other man, that was with him and he is the executive chef at Miller's Smorgasbord.  It is nice to get other professionals opinions on the pies I make.  I told the man that I had some experiments for the day and showed him them.  I told him about using the EL-7 product from Caravan and he said the bakery at Millerís does use many products from Caravan and Caravan products are very good.  Steve and I enjoyed talking to both men.      

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2011, 10:53:57 AM
Norma,

I had specifically mentioned the preferment Lehmann dough in the context of the EL-7 product because I thought that I recalled that you had mentioned having problems opening the preferment Lehmann dough from time to time and, as I recall, it was not limited to a warm weather environment that could have the effect of speeding everything up, even when using your refrigerated case. I definitely would try the EL-7 with a preferment Lehmann dough ball. I would add the EL-7 as part of the final mix.

If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Lehmann preferment has been producing too much acid. One of the effects of acids produced during prefermentation, and perhaps even thereafter, is to strengthen the dough. If there is too much acid production, it is common for the final dough to be on the bucky side. The acidity tightens up the protein and creates a gluten matrix with higher elasticity. There are perhaps several ways of dealing with this problem from the preferment creation/management standpoint but that is not something I think you would want to do as a regular part of your work where the operating environment can change daily and often dramatically. One possibility is to use an autolyse or equivalent rest period during the final mix. Another possibility might be to add a pinch of salt to the preferment. I mentioned this before after reading about that possibility from the writings of Didier Rosada and Professor Calvel. Also, just recently I watched a video in which a baker making a bread dough using a poolish suggested adding a pinch of salt to the poolish in warm weather. The effect of the salt is to slow down the prefermentation process. In theory, that should result in lower acid production. If those measures don't prove effective, or sufficiently effective, then I would certainly consider trying out the EL-7 product.

I also think that the EL-7 product should work well with a cracker style dough. Likewise for a dough that is to be used with a dough press or roller/sheeter.

I also thought that it might be a good idea to test the EL-7 product with a much lower hydration. I remember, for example, trying out an "Old Faithful" dough that Big Dave Ostrander came up with and used in his pizzeria for many years before he became an industry consultant. The hydration was around 50%. I recall that some members who tried out the dough said that the dough was too stiff. I think the EL-7 product would be worth trying with such a low hydration dough. I opted for 57% hydration in the formulation I gave you just to find a convenient starting point for any experiments you might attempt using the EL-7 product. I didn't want the hydration to be too high and I didn't want it to be too low.

With respect to the pizza that you made with the EL-7, I liked the crust coloration. I am not as big on char/leoparding as many of our members and, in that respect, I thought that your pizza had nice crust coloration, especially on the bottom.

Peter

Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 01:34:02 PM
Peter,

If I try one preferment Lehmann dough ball this coming week with the EL-7 product should I used the same amount of the EL-7 product by percent in the final dough as I did in this experiment.  I mean should I calculate the percent to be used by the flour in the final dough and not use the preferment amount of flour at all?

I have been trying for a long while to figure out what makes the preferment Lehmann dough work or not work in many ways.  That is one reason I starting taking the pH readings of the preferment and the final dough.  I was thinking somehow I could figure out why sometimes the dough is easy to open and other times it is harder to open.  That always had me stumped, because it has happened in colder or warmer weather.  I had told Steve yesterday I canít figure out why sometimes the preferment Lehmann dough is harder to open, when I always have the final dough temperatures in about a couple of degrees.  The dough is always cold fermented for the same length of time, and even though out the whole day at market the dough balls donít change on how they open.  I have also started taking pH readings to see if that also might help me learn about crust coloration. Your guess is probably right that the preferment is producing too much acid.  I knew one of the acids produced during prefermentation is to strengthen the dough.  I didnít know that the acidity could tighten the protein and create a gluten matrix with higher elasticity.  I just wonder if I lower the preferment proofing time in my Hatco Unit if that will fix the problem.  If that doesnít fix the problem I could try a small amount of salt added to the preferment.  Which way do you think I should try first? 

I would be interested in trying the EL-7 product with an "Old Faithful" dough for next week.  Since I like to taste pizzas from new doughs, that would also be an interesting experiment for me.  I will look where the "Old Faithful" dough is posted on the forum.  50% hydration is low.

Thanks for saying you liked the crust coloration in the pizza I made using the EL-7 product.  The EL-7 did work well in browning the crust to a golden brown, in the rim and bottom crust. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 22, 2011, 04:16:07 PM
Norma,

To keep things simple and not have to re-do all of the numbers, I would use the EL-7 at the same rate (0.375%) as a percentage of the total formula flour (which will be different than for your last experiment) and add it as part of the final mix. The preferment (poolish) does not need the EL-7; the final mix dough is what benefits from it. The added weight from the EL-7 product is not going to materially affect the total dough weight.

You can read about the protein tightening effect in the fourth paragraph under Advantages in the second Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

It is possible to reduce the prefermentation time in your Hatco unit, or even its temperature. I wasn't sure if that was an option. I was trying not to change anything that you were doing. You might try shortening the prefermentation time and/or temperature before trying the salt method.

The Big Dave Old Faithful recipe is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976/topicseen.html#msg5976. There apparently were several versions of that recipe but the one you want to use for an EL-7 experiment is the one with 51% hydration or maybe the one with 51.6% hydration (at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605).

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 22, 2011, 04:24:55 PM
Norma,

In my experience, the two things that have affected the extensibility of my dough the most - each way more than the pH - are they type of flour and the amount I work the dough - particularly the amount I work the dough prior to forming the balls.

Assuming you are using the same flour, is your mixing, kneading, and handling the same from time-to-time? or vice-versa?

With respect to adding salt to your preferment, when I was experimenting with my reverse engineering UPN project, I did a lot of experiments with salt in the preferment. I found that I needed a very small amount (0.1%) to control the enzyme activity (else the final dough was way too weak), however, above this level, I did not like the effect it had on either the smell or the flavor of the preferment (Ischia). You might find this interesting if you have not seen it already: EDIT - I see Pete just posted the Didier Rosada link I was going to give you, but I was thinking you might be interested in the part of the same article discussing salt in the preferment - discussed in the 5th-7th paragraphs under "Secondary effects of the preferment." FYI - After you click on the link Pete gave you, if it does not go straight to the article, click on "impatient" at the bottom of the screen, and the article will pop right up.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 10:54:26 PM
Norma,

To keep things simple and not have to re-do all of the numbers, I would use the EL-7 at the same rate (0.375%) as a percentage of the total formula flour (which will be different than for your last experiment) and add it as part of the final mix. The preferment (poolish) does not need the EL-7; the final mix dough is what benefits from it. The added weight from the EL-7 product is not going to materially affect the total dough weight.

You can read about the protein tightening effect in the fourth paragraph under Advantages in the second Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm.

It is possible to reduce the prefermentation time in your Hatco unit, or even its temperature. I wasn't sure if that was an option. I was trying not to change anything that you were doing. You might try shortening the prefermentation time and/or temperature before trying the salt method.

The Big Dave Old Faithful recipe is discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976/topicseen.html#msg5976. There apparently were several versions of that recipe but the one you want to use for an EL-7 experiment is the one with 51% hydration or maybe the one with 51.6% hydration (at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605).

Peter

Peter,

I donít know what happened to my computer, but I had typed a reply and then somehow everything was erased and then I couldnít even get back on the forum. I could get everywhere else on the internet, but not the forum.  That was really weird. ??? I had to work on my computer for awhile to get everything straightened out. 

I will use the EL-7 at the same rate as a percentage of the total formula flour and add it as part of the final mix for one test dough ball on the preferment Lehman dough.

Thank you for the link to the Dider Rosada article about protein tightening effects.

I can reduce the temperature on my Hatco Unit and also decrease the amount of time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit.  I did have the temperature of the Hatco Unit lower before, but had upped the temperature to 120 degrees F so the preferment would bubble faster.  Maybe that is where I went wrong.  I did raise the temperature awhile ago.  I was also thinking back to when I first started making the preferment Lehmann dough and I didnít have the problems of the dough balls opening then.  Maybe the increase in temperature did have something to do with something in the dough balls, but I am not sure.  I will also decrease the time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit.  I have seen even if I let the preferment just bubble a little, it will ferment enough until Monday.  On Monday, when I posted the picture of the preferment it did look to me like it wasnít as bubbly, which I noted in the preferment Lehmann dough thread.

I will look at the links you have provided tomorrow for the Big Dave Old Faithful recipes.  When I went to click on those links that is when somehow my computer failed. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 11:07:01 PM
Norma,

In my experience, the two things that have affected the extensibility of my dough the most - each way more than the pH - are they type of flour and the amount I work the dough - particularly the amount I work the dough prior to forming the balls.

Assuming you are using the same flour, is your mixing, kneading, and handling the same from time-to-time? or vice-versa?

With respect to adding salt to your preferment, when I was experimenting with my reverse engineering UPN project, I did a lot of experiments with salt in the preferment. I found that I needed a very small amount (0.1%) to control the enzyme activity (else the final dough was way too weak), however, above this level, I did not like the effect it had on either the smell or the flavor of the preferment (Ischia). You might find this interesting if you have not seen it already: EDIT - I see Pete just posted the Didier Rosada link I was going to give you, but I was thinking you might be interested in the part of the same article discussing salt in the preferment - discussed in the 5th-7th paragraphs under "Secondary effects of the preferment." FYI - After you click on the link Pete gave you, if it does not go straight to the article, click on "impatient" at the bottom of the screen, and the article will pop right up.

CL

Craig,

Thank you for telling me of your experiences about the two things that have affected the extensibility of your dough the most.  :) My flour, mixing time and handling are all almost the same every week.  I have been timing my mix for a little while.  The only thing I can think that I have done different is let the preferment ferment for longer at higher temperatures.  I did try a higher hydration and one extra  reball for awhile, but that also gave me extensibility issues, so I stopped that. 

If lowering my temperature in the Hatco Unit and decreasing the time the preferment stays in the Hatco Unit doesnít straightened out the issues with the extensibility with the dough balls sometimes, I will try 0.1% salt in my preferment.  Thanks for also doing the experiments and directing me to the link.

I appreciate that someone that has more experience than I do with dough, tries to help me.  That is one reason this forum is great!

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 23, 2011, 10:53:11 AM
I appreciate that someone that has more experience than I do with dough, tries to help me.  That is one reason this forum is great!

Don't sell yourself short. I learn a great deal by following you as well.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 23, 2011, 11:14:57 AM
+1

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 23, 2011, 11:32:39 AM
+1

Peter
Don't sell yourself short. I learn a great deal by following you as well.

CL

Craig and Peter,

You guys are too kind! I have learned so much for both of you guys, plus also from many other members posts.  Thanks so much to everyone!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2011, 08:50:41 AM
I mixed a Big Dave Ostrander ďOld FaithfulĒ dough recipe with EL-7 later yesterday.  I wanted to see if the longer ferment time (until Tuesday) would give the crust a better flavor.  The ďOld FaithfulĒ was mixed in my Kitchen Aid mixer with the flat beater first, then switched to the C-hook.  The dough was given two rest periods of about 15 minutes and then the vegetable oil was added.  The dough came together nicely.  I then let the dough rest another 15 minutes to loosen up the gluten before I formed a dough ball.  I used KASL in the mix.  This is the formula I used and pictures of the dough ball last evening and today.  The final dough temperature was 80.7 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2011, 08:53:25 AM
Pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2011, 09:10:19 AM
I had posted at Reply 866 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg144433.html#msg144433 that I had made enough preferment (poolish) to make 5 dough balls to test out using EL-7, but after thinking about it, I really didnít let that preferment ferment longer or at higher temperatures to see how that would make my doughs perform, so I made another preferment yesterday for just one dough ball, and left it ferment in my home oven with the light on.  It did look like it fermented more than the preferment made on Friday for the test dough balls.  I donít know if I am going to use the preferment (for 5 dough balls) in combination with the EL-7 to do the experiment, or just use the preferment I made yesterday at home to do the experiment with the EL-7 and mixed the final dough at home to take to market on Monday.  I am not sure which way is the better way to go about this experiment.

Picture of preferment made at home.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 08:21:27 AM
This is how Big Daveís ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball looks this morning.  It has transformed into a soft dough ball, but has fermented a lot. I guess the EL-7 made it so soft.  When I mixed the dough and then made it into a dough ball it was a lot drier.  Hopefully it will last until tomorrow.

Also the preferment for the Lehmann dough has fallen some, since yesterday.  I know at market my larger batch of preferment doesnít fall like this one did for one dough ball, so I donít know how consistent my results will be when I try to compare the one dough ball with the EL-7  to others I have tried, when making larger batches of preferment.

pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 06:18:54 PM
When I arrived at market today the Big Daveís ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball was fermenting more than I would have liked it to.  It had reached the top of the plastic container it was in, and had some big bubbles on the top of the dough ball.  I donít know why it has fermented so much, when only 0.27 IDY was used in the formula along with EL-7.  I didnít take a picture of the preferment Lehmann dough ball made with EL-7 this morning, but it looked fine when I arrived at market today, but it looked like it also was fermenting a little faster than it should.

Picture of ďOld FaithfullĒ dough ball at market.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 27, 2011, 06:28:11 PM
Maybe it didn't ferment faster than expected but rather the weaker dough just looks like it is fermenting faster because it has less strength to hold back the expanding gas?

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 27, 2011, 06:34:15 PM
Norma,

I agree with Craig. Also, you used 45 minutes of rest periods for the original dough, which most likely improved the hydration (leading to a softer dough) and gave the dough a head start on fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 07:31:26 PM
Norma,

I agree with Craig. Also, you used 45 minutes of rest periods for the original dough, which most likely improved the hydration (leading to a softer dough) and gave the dough a head start on fermentation.

Peter
Maybe it didn't ferment faster than expected but rather the weaker dough just looks like it is fermenting faster because it has less strength to hold back the expanding gas?

CL

Craig and Peter,

Thanks for your replies!  :) They do make sense.  Do either of you think I might need a reball tomorrow, or should I go with the dough ball whatever it looks like tomorrow?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 27, 2011, 07:45:10 PM
Norma,

Normally, when a product like L-cysteine is used, or a similar product like PZ-44 that contains L-cysteine, the dough is managed like any other dough--without re-balling or anything like that. I think that you should just use your best judgment as to whether re-balling is necessary based on the appearance and structure of the dough. I trust your instincts on these kinds of matters.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 08:01:54 PM
Norma,

Normally, when a product like L-cysteine is used, or a similar product like PZ-44 that contains L-cysteine, the dough is managed like any other dough--without re-balling or anything like that. I think that you should just use your best judgment as to whether re-balling is necessary based on the appearance and structure of the dough. I trust your instincts on these kinds of matters.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on what I should do with the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball with EL-7.  Since I really donít have much of any experience with using EL-7, that is why I wasnít sure of what to do.  I appreciate you trust my instincts, but I donít trust mine after that pig slaughter at market, when using a commercial dough enhancer.  :-D  I will see how the dough balls looks tomorrow.  The ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball was really different while it was even cold fermenting for a day.  I didnít have a hole in the lid and the lid wanted to keep popping off, so this morning I did put a hole in the lid of the plastic container. It still wanted to pop the lid, so I made the hole bigger.  I have the dough ball in my deli case at market.  Just so it doesnít pop the lid tonight and break a light in my deli case.  That would be one expensive dough ball if it did.  I havenít had too many dough balls that wanted to keep popping off lids, but the ďOld FaithfulĒ kept doing that.  I have no idea why there was so much pressure in the plastic container with the dough ball in it.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on June 27, 2011, 08:25:20 PM
Norma,

I went back to take another look at your dough formulation in Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144582.html#msg144582. I did this because I did not recall that there was anything unusual about the Old Faithful dough recipe that could account for a very high level of activity of a dough made using that recipe. But one possibility that occurred to me when I revisited your Old Faithful dough formulation is the reduced salt level that you used, 1%. When I originally saw that value, I simply assumed that you used the lower salt level to compensate for what you perceived to be an overly salty crust when you last used the EL-7 product. I think that the L-cysteine is partly responsible for the high level of activity of the dough, perhaps along with the fermentation of the dough before cooling, but it is also possible that the low salt level (1%) is contributing to the fast rise of the dough. If it is warm where you are this time of year, that may also be having its effect on the dough. It could well be that there are several forces acting simultaneously on the dough to cause it to rise faster than usual.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 09:07:19 PM
Norma,

I went back to take another look at your dough formulation in Reply 94 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg144582.html#msg144582. I did this because I did not recall that there was anything unusual about the Old Faithful dough recipe that could account for a very high level of activity of a dough made using that recipe. But one possibility that occurred to me when I revisited your Old Faithful dough formulation is the reduced salt level that you used, 1%. When I originally saw that value, I simply assumed that you used the lower salt level to compensate for what you perceived to be an overly salty crust when you last used the EL-7 product. I think that the L-cysteine is partly responsible for the high level of activity of the dough, perhaps along with the fermentation of the dough before cooling, but it is also possible that the low salt level (1%) is contributing to the fast rise of the dough. If it is warm where you are this time of year, that may also be having its effect on the dough. It could well be that there are several forces acting simultaneously on the dough to cause it to rise faster than usual.

Peter

Peter,

I did think the pizza crust was too salty in my last attempt using the EL-7, but I can understand now why the dough might be fermenting faster, while using the lower salt amount, and also since you explained that L-cysteine might also be partly responsible for the high level of activity in the dough ball.  It is warmer in our area and I have the central air on, but it was about 81 degrees F when I made the dough at home. Usually I donít have as high of final dough temperature as I did either. Those rest periods probably didnít help either. I did take the dough ball over to market in a cooler, so I donít think that had an way of increasing the activity of the dough.  I also had my refrigerator opened and closed a lot in the last few days, so that also could have contributed to a faster activity.  I was putting hot foods in to cool that I cooked, so that probably had something to do with the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball, too.  It is supposed to be around 86 degrees F in our area tomorrow with high humidity, (and temperatures near my oven at market, will be higher) so I will have to watch what happens with the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball and if I think it needs any warm-up time or not.  I can see there can be different forces that are coming together to make this dough ball have more activity.  I was only going to do a one day cold ferment, but I wanted to see if I could get a better crust flavor from a longer cold ferment.  Maybe I only should have done a one day cold ferment.

Thanks for your help in understanding what is going on.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 28, 2011, 10:57:38 PM
The ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball with EL-7 added didnít look like it fermented anymore until today.  I sure donít know why that was.  Maybe it was because I put a bigger hole in the lid.  Most of the bubbles went down until this morning.  I though that was strange.  The ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball looked a little drier on the top too. 

I let the dough sit at the ambient room temperature of about 92 degrees F for about 3 hrs. and it still didnít look like it fermented much more. After sitting out, the top of the dough ball looked moister.   Steve opened the dough ball and it stretched open in no time, and even got much bigger than 18".  It wanted to flop over the peel, so Steve just pushed the skin back some.  The ďOld FaithfulĒ pizza baked well and tasted like a NY street pizza.  The pizza was a little over 18".

I would say the ďOld FaithfulĒ pizza with EL-7 was a success.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 28, 2011, 11:01:39 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 28, 2011, 11:04:16 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 29, 2011, 09:08:52 AM
The EL-7 added to the preferment Lehmann dough worked out well.  The dough was easy to open and the crust seemed to be moister since the EL-7 was added.  The taste of the final pizza with EL-7 tasted about the same as a regular preferment Lehmann dough pizza. 

What I found interesting about the preferment Lehmann dough ball with the EL-7 added is it wanted seem to ferment more too, just like the "Old Faithful" dough ball did.  Usually in a one day cold ferment, I don't develop any big bubbles on the top of the dough balls, but did yesterday, even before the warm-up.  The warm-up time was a little over an hour and the bubble on top of the dough ball did become bigger.

Steve placed fresh basil from my garden on this pizza, so the preferment Lehmann dough with the EL-7 added was a Pizza Margherita, at least for this pie.  ;D

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 29, 2011, 09:11:59 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 29, 2011, 09:14:50 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 29, 2011, 03:43:32 PM
No commercial pizza mix ever made I pie that looks as good as that! Few commercial restaurants have for that matter!

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on June 29, 2011, 04:17:43 PM
No commercial pizza mix ever made I pie that looks as good as that! Few commercial restaurants have for that matter!

CL

Craig,

Lol, do you think I should try the EL-7 in a pizza crust mix on my mystery thread?   :-D  At least a home pizza maker could stretch out the dough easily.  Thanks for your kind comments!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2011, 10:58:43 PM
I mixed another ďOld FaithfulĒ dough with EL-7.  The final dough temperature was 81.2 degrees F.  The dough balls looks and feels dry, but I guess until Tuesday the EL-7 product will soften it up some.

Edit:  Sorry, I posted the wrong dough ball before, but this is the "Old Faithful" dough ball.  I have too many pictures on my computer of dough balls, that I soon need to delete.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 10:52:56 AM
I send Edna an email each week if I try one of the Caravan products she sent me to sample.  Last week I had asked Edna if she thought the EL-7 had something to do with how the doughs fermented I had made last week.

This is Ednaís reply email this morning.

Hello Norma,
 
Wow Ė Your doing lots of testing - - I think the L-Cystiene may have a lot to do with the progressive fermentation.  I may be in Pa. next week - - what are your business hours?
 
Regards
 
Edna Guajardo
Mid-Atlantic Sales Manager
Specialty Bakery Division

Lol, if Edna does get to visit me next week, I better come up with some interesting experiments that will work.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 04, 2011, 11:11:54 AM
Norma,

You can read a bit more about L-Cysteine and other reducing agents at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_7REDUC.PDF. It is hard to say how much a reducing agent like L-Cysteine affects fermentation, but perhaps the softening of the gluten matrix facilitates or allows for more effective fermentation. You perhaps would have to do a side by side test using the L-Cysteine (via the EL-7 product) in one of the doughs and none in the other (with slightly less salt). The "Old Faithful" dough recipe would seem to be a good recipe to use this way because of its low hydration value.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 11:50:46 AM
Norma,

You can read a bit more about L-Cysteine and other reducing agents at http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_7REDUC.PDF. It is hard to say how much a reducing agent like L-Cysteine affects fermentation, but perhaps the softening of the gluten matrix facilitates or allows for more effective fermentation. You perhaps would have to do a side by side test using the L-Cysteine (via the EL-7 product) in one of the doughs and none in the other (with slightly less salt). The "Old Faithful" dough recipe would seem to be a good recipe to use this way because of its low hydration value.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link about L-Cysteine and other reducing agents.  I will read it over better a little later, so I can understand it more.  I could do a side by side comparison with the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough, one with EL-7 and one without EL-7.  I didnít take a picture of the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball this morning, but is has really started fermenting more and is softening up.  I will take a picture of the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball when I am at market today, if I remember. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 06:00:56 PM
This is a picture of the ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball with EL-7 added, this afternoon at market. The changes I made when mixing this dough ball were, I mixed all the ingredients in except the oil and mixed on speed two with only the C-hook for 7 minutes.  I then added the vegetable oil and mixed until incorporated.  I didnít give this dough any rest period while mixing or before I balled the dough ball.  I also switched flours because I didnít have enough KASL at home to make this dough.  I used Kyrol flour. 

There arenít any top bubbles like last week, but the bottom of the dough ball looks like it is fermenting well.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2011, 08:42:15 AM
The ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball acted normally this week.  I think my refrigerator must have been too high of a temperature, from putting too many cooked foods inside to cool, or either I had given the dough last week too many rest periods last week, that the dough ball developed the bubbles on top of the dough ball.  There werenít any bubbles on top of the dough ball this week and the dough ball looked like it fermented normally. 

The ďOld FaithfulĒ dough ball was fairly easy to open, but still felt somewhat dry.  The end pizza did taste like a NY street pizza. 

I donít know what experiment to do next with the EL-7 product.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2011, 07:01:20 PM
I donít know what experiment to do next with the EL-7 product.

Norma,

In a broad, generic sense, the EL-7 product seems applicable to any dough that is subject, for whatever reason, to excessive elasticity. It might be because of the type of flour used (high-gluten flours seems to be the main villain from a flour standpoint), or a low hydration dough such as the original Old Faithful dough (around 51%) or a cracker-style dough (in the mid-30% range) that is to be run through a sheeter or roller, or a dough that might be used in a dough press, or a dough that develops excessive strength during fermentation (with the preferment Lehmann dough being an example). I view the EL-7 product to be a solution to problems that cannot otherwise be solved using conventional dough preparation and management methods.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 07:36:29 PM
Norma,

In a broad, generic sense, the EL-7 product seems applicable to any dough that is subject, for whatever reason, to excessive elasticity. It might be because of the type of flour used (high-gluten flours seems to be the main villain from a flour standpoint), or a low hydration dough such as the original Old Faithful dough (around 51%) or a cracker-style dough (in the mid-30% range) that is to be run through a sheeter or roller, or a dough that might be used in a dough press, or a dough that develops excessive strength during fermentation (with the preferment Lehmann dough being an example). I view the EL-7 product to be a solution to problems that cannot otherwise be solved using conventional dough preparation and management methods.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand the EL-7 would help with almost any kind of dough that has different problems.  I donít have a sheeter or regular roller, but would like to try a really low hydration dough something like a cracker crust. I do have a heavy rolling pin. I donít think I ever tried a cracker crust before.  Do you have any ideas of what cracker style formula I should try with the EL-7 product?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2011, 10:13:17 PM
I can understand the EL-7 would help with almost any kind of dough that has different problems.  I donít have a sheeter or regular roller, but would like to try a really low hydration dough something like a cracker crust. I do have a heavy rolling pin. I donít think I ever tried a cracker crust before.  Do you have any ideas of what cracker style formula I should try with the EL-7 product?

Norma,

I think a cracker style dough is a very good choice for an EL-7 experiment. You might consider using DKM's cracker style dough recipe as given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. I suggest that recipe because of the low hydration value, 36%. A dough with such a low hydration can be very difficult to roll out in a home setting using a rolling pin. I came up with a solution for that problem that called for using heat to warm up the dough to a temperature of above 90 degrees F before rolling out, using a proofing box I put together to warm up the dough. Using the EL-7 product might be a good substitute for the heating process and make rolling out the dough easier. You can read about my solution at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. The main difference in the dough recipe given in Reply 16 is that I used a lower thickness factor than I calculated for DKM's recipe. That made my crust crispier rather than cracker like. I like both crust textures but personally prefer the crispier version.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2011, 08:54:09 AM
Norma,

I think a cracker style dough is a very good choice for an EL-7 experiment. You might consider using DKM's cracker style dough recipe as given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php. I suggest that recipe because of the low hydration value, 36%. A dough with such a low hydration can be very difficult to roll out in a home setting using a rolling pin. I came up with a solution for that problem that called for using heat to warm up the dough to a temperature of above 90 degrees F before rolling out, using a proofing box I put together to warm up the dough. Using the EL-7 product might be a good substitute for the heating process and make rolling out the dough easier. You can read about my solution at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49138.html#msg49138. The main difference in the dough recipe given in Reply 16 is that I used a lower thickness factor than I calculated for DKM's recipe. That made my crust crispier rather than cracker like. I like both crust textures but personally prefer the crispier version.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the links about making a cracker style dough with the EL-7 product.  36% hydration is really low.  I can understand how a proofing box can help the dough soften.  If you remember, I also built a proofing box.  I could try the EL-7 to see if it softens the dough enough to roll it out without a proofing box, but also have my proofing box incase the EL-7 doesnít soften the dough enough.  I think I would prefer the crispy crust also, but wonít know until I try.  You gave very detailed instructions on how to make the dough and pizza.  What I wonder is because I donít have a dark anodized nonperforated cutter pan, is there another pan that you would suggest to use that I might have?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 08, 2011, 09:36:44 AM
Thanks for the links about making a cracker style dough with the EL-7 product.  36% hydration is really low.  I can understand how a proofing box can help the dough soften.  If you remember, I also built a proofing box.  I could try the EL-7 to see if it softens the dough enough to roll it out without a proofing box, but also have my proofing box in case the EL-7 doesnít soften the dough enough.  I think I would prefer the crispy crust also, but wonít know until I try.  You gave very detailed instructions on how to make the dough and pizza.  What I wonder is because I donít have a dark anodized nonperforated cutter pan, is there another pan that you would suggest to use that I might have?

Norma,

If you have another type of pan that is large enough to contain the skin/pizza, I think that should work. It might even be perforated. In a pinch, you might try using a pizza screen, at least until the skin is prebaked enough to slide onto a preheated pizza stone to finish prebaking (I have not tried a pizza screen myself but I vaguely recall that another member said it would work). One of the advantages of a cutter pan, or any similar pan (including a disk), is that you can put the sauce, cheese and toppings right to the outer edge without fear that the cheese and/or toppings will spill over the sides when shuffling the pizza into the oven. Covering the edges of the pizza might also discourage a defined rim from forming, even with docking. Ideally, you want the entire pizza to be flat.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2011, 10:43:29 AM
Norma,

If you have another type of pan that is large enough to contain the skin/pizza, I think that should work. It might even be perforated. In a pinch, you might try using a pizza screen, at least until the skin is prebaked enough to slide onto a preheated pizza stone to finish prebaking (I have not tried a pizza screen myself but I vaguely recall that another member said it would work). One of the advantages of a cutter pan, or any similar pan (including a disk), is that you can put the sauce, cheese and toppings right to the outer edge without fear that the cheese and/or toppings will spill over the sides when shuffling the pizza into the oven. Covering the edges of the pizza might also discourage a defined rim from forming, even with docking. Ideally, you want the entire pizza to be flat.

Peter

Peter,

I do have aluminum 14" cutter pans, lloydsís perforated coated flat disks, or aluminum screens. I can understand the advantages of using a cutter pan so the sauce, cheese and toppings wonít spill over the sides. 

Thanks for you help!

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 11, 2011, 08:33:10 AM
I made a dough for a cracker style crust last evening with EL-7.  The pizza size I went with was 15" to be cut to 14".   I did use 130 degrees F water for the mix in my food processor.  The dough came out okay in the food processor, but I remembered after the dough was looking crumbled and I had lumped it together and removed it from the food processor bowl, I had forgot to add the oil.  I then put the dough that had looked okay to me, back into the food processor and added the oil.  The dough then looked quite different.  I balled the dough and coated it lightly with vegetable oil. 

I had heated my homemade proofing box before I started the dough and the temperature on the proofing box was 110 degrees F.  I let the dough ball that had been place into a plastic container, proof for two hours.  The dough in the beginning was somewhat easy to roll out, but as I kept measuring, for 15", with the somewhat shaggy edges, I am not sure it I have the right thickness factor. The skin became increasing harder to roll out after it had cooled some. The skin weighed 9.3 oz. after it was cut and the skin only measures 12 1/2".  The skin then was wrapped in plastic and put into a plastic zip bag. I will be taking the skin to market.

This was the formula I used and the pictures of the process.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 11, 2011, 08:34:37 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 10:48:26 PM
Since I have never made a cracker style pizza, I am not sure if my results were like a cracker style or not.  The pizza did sound very crispy when cut.

I used my rolling pin to roll the crust some after I unfolded the dough.  I used my aluminum cutter pan and Steve did oil it some with olive oil.  The crust was pre-baked.  Then the dressings of sauce, spring onions, green peppers, spinach and two kinds of mozzarella were applied in the cutter pan.  The dressed pie then was put back into the oven.  I saw the bottom crust wasnít getting brown at all, so I removed the pizza from the cutter pan and put it right on the deck, until Steve and I thought it was baked enough.

I enjoyed this different kind of pizza, even though I donít know if I made it right, or it was like it should have been. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 10:51:35 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 10:53:41 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 12, 2011, 10:57:49 PM
Norma,

For a first try at the cracker style, I would say that you did really well. I think that you would find that a dark anodized cutter pan does a better job than a plain aluminum one.

Would you say that the EL-7 product was useful in making the cracker style dough and rolling it out?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2011, 11:54:00 PM
Norma,

For a first try at the cracker style, I would say that you did really well. I think that you would find that a dark anodized cutter pan does a better job than a plain aluminum one.

Would you say that the EL-7 product was useful in making the cracker style dough and rolling it out?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying for my first try at a cracker style, I did well.  I also think a dark anodized cutter pan would do a better job than the aluminum one I used.

I donít really know if the EL-7 product did help or not with being able to roll the dough.  The dough at first was easy to roll, but as it became a little cooler it didnít want to roll out well. 

I want to try a cracker style again next week with the EL-7 product to see if I can get about the same results or better.  I did post I forgot to put the oil in the dough, but then put it back into my food processor.  Maybe that made some difference. When I put the dough back into the food processor the food processor really rocked.  I really donít know if that made any difference in anything or not. 

Do you have any ideas about what I could do differently the next time to get better results?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 13, 2011, 11:17:08 AM
Do you have any ideas about what I could do differently the next time to get better results?

Norma,

I think the only change I would make is to increase the amount of the EL-7 product. Of course, the actual amount will depend on the recipe you decide to use next time and the amount of flour called for in that recipe. You might also roll out the dough to make a slightly larger skin than the final desired size to offset the possibililty that the skin shrinks a bit as it cools after rolling. If the skin doesn't shrink, that might be an indication that the EL-product prevents or minimizes the shrinkage. That would be a good piece of information to know.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2011, 12:51:24 PM
Norma,

I think the only change I would make is to increase the amount of the EL-7 product. Of course, the actual amount will depend on the recipe you decide to use next time and the amount of flour called for in that recipe. You might also roll out the dough to make a slightly larger skin than the final desired size to offset the possibililty that the skin shrinks a bit as it cools after rolling. If the skin doesn't shrink, that might be an indication that the EL-product prevents or minimizes the shrinkage. That would be a good piece of information to know.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for you thoughts about increasing the EL-7 product in the next experiment.  I can understand if the skin doesnít shrink, that might be an indication that the EL-7 product prevents or minimizes the shrinkage.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2011, 07:41:53 PM
I mixed another cracker style dough today, but this time, I think I mixed the ingredients right, in the food processor. The temperature of the water used was 130 degrees F. I did proof the dough in my homemade proofing box at 110 degrees F for 2 hrs.  I also used more of the EL-7 product in the formula. 

First picture is after the cracker style with EL-7 dough was mixed.  Second picture dough in proofing box in container.  Third and fourth pictures of dough ball top and bottom after coming out of proofing box.  Next pictures after rolling dough, cutting, flouring, and putting the rolled out skin, then plastic and finally in a plastic bag.  The finished skin weighed 10.6 oz.  I am still not sure if I have the right TF.

My daughter and I both tasted the leftover dough and it almost tastes like pie crust dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2011, 07:43:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 03:22:10 PM
The experimental  cracker style pizza with extra EL-7 added did turned out okay, but I really donít think I am making a crispy crackery crust.  At least it doesnít seem like it to me.  After letting the skin warm-up at market yesterday, the dough rolled thinner, using my big rolling pin. Steve cut the extra dough, and weighed the excess dough that was cut off. The extra dough weighed 3.4 oz. I used my blackbuster steel pan this time to do the pre-bake.  The pre-baked skin was then simply dressed with sauce, mozzarella, pepperoni, and Parmesan cheese.  I donít know if I am not a cracker style kind of girl or not, but I tend to like NY or other styles better.

I did email Edna the pictures of the baked cracker style pizza from last week and told her I was going to use more of the EL-7 product in the formula this week.  She sent me a return email saying:   
I am sure EL-7 will give you excellent sheeting results!

Pictures of process and baked cracker style pizza with the EL-7 products.  At first I put the dressed pre-baked crust on a black pizza screen, but took it off and placed the pie on the oven deck in about 15 seconds.  I donít know if I should have used that method, or done something differently, to get better results.  Sorry, the one picture of the crust close-up is blurry.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 03:24:02 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 03:25:09 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 03:26:05 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 20, 2011, 03:53:59 PM
Norma,

I have been viewing the EL-7 product as a potential substitute for the proofing box, to see if the EL-7 product alone can improve the rolling out process (see Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg145761.html#msg145761). I notice that you used both the EL-7 product and the proofing box for the last two cracker-style pizzas. You might try just the EL-7 product to see if it works on a dough of very low hydration to allow the dough to roll out easily, without forcing it. If it doesn't work well enough, you might still have the option of using the proofing box after regathering the rolled out dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 04:06:32 PM
Norma,

I have been viewing the EL-7 product as a potential substitute for the proofing box, to see if the EL-7 product alone can improve the rolling out process (see Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg145761.html#msg145761). I notice that you used both the EL-7 product and the proofing box for the last two cracker-style pizzas. You might try just the EL-7 product to see if it works on a dough of very low hydration to allow the dough to roll out easily, without forcing it. If it doesn't work well enough, you might still have the option of using the proofing box after regathering the rolled out dough.

Peter


Peter,

I didnít realize until you linked me back to your post, that I should try the EL-7 without the proofing box.  I know, the last two times I did use the EL-7 with the proofing box.  Even then the dough didnít want to roll really easy, at least after the dough cooled a little.  At market yesterday, the rolled dough did roll out easier.  How long do you think I should let the dough with the EL-7 product ferment at room temperature, before trying to roll out the dough?  I can understand that would be a good test for the El-7 product.

Sorry, I got confused on what to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 20, 2011, 04:42:50 PM
How long do you think I should let the dough with the EL-7 product ferment at room temperature, before trying to roll out the dough?  I can understand that would be a good test for the El-7 product.

Norma,

No harm done. In fact, those were perhaps good tests. At least we now have an idea as to how the dough reacted to both the EL-7 product and heat from the proofing box. Maybe both were too much.

I think I would let the next dough ferment at room temperature for about a half hour, or even less if the dough will be at market with temperatures in the 90s. You might try rolling out the dough after the initial proof period and if the dough balks to rolling (is overly elastic), then I think I would let the dough proof for another half hour. If the EL-7 product is going to work meaningfully for a cracker-style dough, one hour of proof should be enough in my opinion.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2011, 08:50:09 PM

I think I would let the next dough ferment at room temperature for about a half hour, or even less if the dough will be at market with temperatures in the 90s. You might try rolling out the dough after the initial proof period and if the dough balks to rolling (is overly elastic), then I think I would let the dough proof for another half hour. If the EL-7 product is going to work meaningfully for a cracker-style dough, one hour of proof should be enough in my opinion.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I will do the next test at home, because I donít have any food processor at market to mix the dough.  The dough yesterday, at market, did look different than the dough looked last week and also rolled a lot better.  Last week even after the proof in my home proofing box, and letting the dough in the refrigerator for two days, the dough at market hardly budged when rolling.  This week after the proofing box, and the two days in the refrigerator, the dough rolled much better at market.  I did use 3/4 teaspoon of the EL-7 product in the mix this week.  I really donít think the small amount of time, with the EL-7 products is going to make a big difference in being able to rolled out the dough, but I guess I will see, if I do the test.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2011, 12:22:51 PM
I mixed another cracker style formula this morning with the  EL-7 product and left it sit for 1 Ĺ hrs.  I used another formula this time, which can be seen below.  The dough wasnít soft enough to be rolled out in about 1 Ĺ hrs.  I would put the dough into my homemade proofing box, but I have to go to market soon.  I am not sure if I should just let the dough sit out until tomorrow, and then take it to market to try and roll the dough out, or put the dough into my proofing box, when I return from market, then roll the dough.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2011, 12:23:43 PM
Formula I used.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 25, 2011, 02:51:55 PM
Norma,

You might check the dough again when you return home from market today to see if it can be rolled out easily. If not, you might refrigerate the dough overnight to see if the EL-7 product simply needs more time to do its thing. Then, tomorrow, after a reasonable temper time at market, you might try again to see if the dough rolls out any better. If not, then your test would suggest that the EL-7 product does not do as well with a very low hydration dough, especially in a home setting using a rolling pin. Maybe a commercial sheeted/roller is needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2011, 05:40:57 PM
Norma,

You might check the dough again when you return home from market today to see if it can be rolled out easily. If not, you might refrigerate the dough overnight to see if the EL-7 product simply needs more time to do its thing. Then, tomorrow, after a reasonable temper time at market, you might try again to see if the dough rolls out any better. If not, then your test would suggest that the EL-7 product does not do as well with a very low hydration dough, especially in a home setting using a rolling pin. Maybe a commercial sheeted/roller is needed.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I did just check the dough and it feels softer now.  I will try rolling it again, if a little while.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 25, 2011, 07:40:48 PM
The cracker style dough with the EL-7 product was easier to roll out after sitting out for awhile.  It wasnít as easy as using the proofing box first, but wasnít too bad.  I would think if using a real sheeter, instead of a rolling pin, the dough would be much easier to work with.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 26, 2011, 11:53:26 AM
Norma,

What do your customers think of the cracker-style vs. your other pies?

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 26, 2011, 11:55:51 AM
I'd like to try that dough with nothing more than a good bit of parmesan cheese on top. Maybe a touch of rosemary and black bepper too. Cooked crisp, it would be like cheese crackers. You could sell it with a cup of warm sauce on the side for dipping.

CL
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 26, 2011, 09:45:48 PM
I'd like to try that dough with nothing more than a good bit of parmesan cheese on top. Maybe a touch of rosemary and black bepper too. Cooked crisp, it would be like cheese crackers. You could sell it with a cup of warm sauce on the side for dipping.

CL
Norma,

What do your customers think of the cracker-style vs. your other pies?

CL


Craig,

I havenít given any of the experimental cracker style pizzas to any of my customers.  I really donít have the right kind of cutter pan to try, and I donít even know what a real cracker-style pie is supposed to taste like.  I did another experiment today, with another cracker-style pizza and I wasnít happy with it either.  :-D

Your ideas for toppings really sound good for a cracker-style pizza.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 11:46:34 AM
I really donít think the EL-7 product worked as intended in the cracker-style pizza formulation I used, or maybe I didnít go about making a cracker-style dough pizza right, but I am not happy with this style of pizza or my results.

After the dough was rolled out on Monday the dough did look okay.  When I took the rolled out dough out of the plastic wrap and a plastic bag I had stored it in, the dough felt drier than when I had rolled it.  The dough skin also looked different, in that it had some spots in it.  I tried to roll the dough more at market, but it wouldnít budge.  I oiled my blackbuster steel pan and placed the dough skin in the pan and then cut the dough some.  The skin was pre-baked, then dressed and put straight onto the deck this time. 

The pizza did have a definite crackery sound when cutting, but doesnít seem crackery enough for me.  The pizza was crispy, but not crackery, if that makes any sense.  ::)

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 11:48:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 11:49:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 11:50:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2011, 12:14:19 PM
Norma,

As I understand it, you used DKM's cracker style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but modified in accordance with Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068, including the use of the EL-7 product. If so, can you answer the following questions?:

1. Are you looking for a more cracker-like crust or a crispy one? A cracker-like crust by my definition would be somewhat thicker than a crispy crust and more tender than a crispy crust. A cracker-like crust might break along a clean line rather than shatter.

2. What type and brand of flour did you use?

3. What is the size of your pan?

4. After you trimmed the skin to fit your pan, did you weigh it?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
Norma,

As I understand it, you used DKM's cracker style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php but modified in accordance with Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg146068.html#msg146068, including the use of the EL-7 product. If so, can you answer the following questions?:

1. Are you looking for a more cracker-like crust or a crispy one? A cracker-like crust by my definition would be somewhat thicker than a crispy crust and more tender than a crispy crust. A cracker-like crust might break along a clean line rather than shatter.

2. What type and brand of flour did you use?

3. What is the size of your pan?

4. After you trimmed the skin to fit your pan, did you weigh it?

Peter

Peter,

You are correct, that I did use DKMís cracker style dough formulation at the link you posted with the EL-7 product in higher amounts, but I didnít use my homemade proofing box.  

I still am confused about what a cracker-style crust should be like and taste like.  I know I tried the V&N clone different times, and although I did like that formulation and pizza, didnít really like a thin crust pizza as much as I like thicker crust pizzas.  I guess my tastes in pizzas are more about how the crust tastes.  The cracker-style I tried yesterday wasnít tender in the crust, but did break along clean lines when cut.  It didnít shatter.  I think I had read somewhere here on the forum that there should be fine crumbs when a cracker-style crust is cut.  When the cracker-style pizza I made yesterday was cut, there werenít fine crumbs.  To Steve and me the crust was almost tough.  Another friend did taste a slice and liked how the crust was.  I donít think many thin crust pizzas have much taste in the crust.

For my last experiments before yesterday, I use the Superlative ďAll-PurposeĒ flour from the Country Store.  For my experiment yesterday I tried Gold Medal ďAll-PurposeĒ flour.  I think I did read that maybe a high gluten four (maybe KASL) might be used.  I think that is why I canít understand what really should be used in terms of flour.  I used Hodgson Mill ADY for the yeast and did hydrate it.  Would it matter that for this week I used regular table salt.  I did put regular table salt in the Expanded Dough Calculation Tool.

The pan I used was 14" round.  I didnít weigh the skin after I cut it, because I also trimmed off some of the dough after rolling it on Monday, and didnít weigh that either.  

Another thing I canít understand, and confused me is how the dough became drier from Monday until Tuesday, when it was in plastic wrap and a plastic bag.  I donít know if that was from the EL-7 product or from something I did.  I donít know if the EL-7 product keeps working on dough something like PZ-44, but it sure didnít seem that way this week.  

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2011, 03:26:44 PM
Norma,

I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/ (http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/)), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.

If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way,  except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.

The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979) (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189.) In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/ (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/)
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 05:37:03 PM
Norma,

I think that often the confusion about the cracker style of pizza stems from semantics. For example, the terms "cracker", "cracker style", "cracker-like", "crackery", "crunchy", and "crispy" can mean different things to different people. Even the term "tender" has a different meaning in the context of the cracker style pizza than for other types of crusts. The DKM recipe you have been using is DKM's interpretation of a true cracker style crust that was popularized by Pizza Inn many years ago. Yet, I have seen the above terms used for pizza crusts that, in my opinion, are quite different than the DKM Pizza Inn type of crust. Examples include the Chicago cracker style pizza, such as the Vito & Nick's pizza (see also Tom Lehmann's recipe at the PMQ Recipe Bank at http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/ (http://pmq.com/tt2/recipe/view/id_161/title_Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/)), the DeLorenzo pizzas, the Monical and Round Table pizzas, and even the Mack's pizzas. Sometimes the above terms are also used with terms like chewy to describe other parts of a pizza crust. As we have learned, it is not always easy to make any pizza identically every time. A pizza intended to have a soft crust can have chewy and cracker-like parts and, conversely, a pizza intended to be cracker-like can have soft, chewy parts.

If you would like to try to find the species of cracker style pizza that you like the best, and at the same time learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust, I would like to suggest the following. I suggest that you make two pizzas that are identical in every way,  except for the thickness factor. For one of the pizzas, I would use a thickness factor for the skin as it is fitted into the pan of 0.09. For the other pizza, I would use a thickness factor of about 0.05-0.06 for the skin as it is fitted in its pan. The reason I asked you the questions about the pan size and the weight of the skin in the pan was to be able to determine the corresponding thickness factor. Knowing that might have allowed me to explain your results. If you decide to conduct the test suggested above, you can use the EL-7 product for both doughs, or you can run the test without that product (and use your proofing box if necessary). If you choose to use the EL-7 product, you can post your results in this thread. If you'd like, you can also make the two pizzas on separate occasions so long as they are identical as much as possible but for the thickness factor as discussed above. Hopefully, making the two pizzas you will experience different crust textures from which you may develop a preference or, in the alternative, get ideas for improvement if you decide to proceed further with that style.

The question about the type and brand of flour was raised because the type of flour used for the cracker style pizza can make a difference. As DKM has noted, the three basic kinds of white flour, including all-purpose flour, bread flour and high-gluten flour, can all be used to make the DKM cracker style pizza. I personally found that I liked the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour better than all-purpose flour, whereas other members indicated that their favorite flour was a high-gluten flour. Bread flour and high-gluten flour promote increased crust flavor and increased crust coloration. I briefly touched upon the flour issue at Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg71979.html#msg71979) (note also the discussion of crust chararacteristics) and also in Reply 135 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg53189.html#msg53189.) In Reply 135 I also espoused a pet theory of mine that a thin cracker style crust has a different impact on the palate because each bite of a cracker style pizza has proportionately less crust in each bite than with most other pizzas with much thicker crusts (assuming the same things on the pizzas). If my theory is right, that might help explain why you seem to prefer thicker crusts over thinner crusts. Or it may simply be a case that you just don't like cracker style crusts and pizzas, based on flavor, crust characteristics or maybe even both.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for explaining about how the different terms can mean different things to different people.  When I thought about making the cracker-style, I thought the crust would be something like a cracker, in that it would be crisp, yet crackery, or easy to eat.  That wasnít the case in any of the cracker-style  pizzas I had made with the EL-7 product.  I guess it is hard to explain what I thought the crust should be like.  Since I never really ate a cracker-style or even much thin crusted pizzas, I really didnít know what to expect though.  I know when I tried the real Ultra-Thin crust in NY, I thought those crusts were what I would have considered to be something that I would like in a cracker-style, but when I actually bought the real skins and then try to make the Ultra-thin clones, I was disappointed.  Those crusts in NY were almost melt in your mouth crispy and tender at the same time, if I can explain it right. 

I would like to find the species of cracker style pizza I like best, and also learn something about the different possible textural characteristics of a cracker style crust. I will take your advise and try the same dough formula, but use two different TF for next week.  What formula do you suggest I try for this coming week, and how much of the EL-7 product do you suggest I use in the formula. Would I still use a formula for a 15" skin, cut to 14"?   I wanted to also explain that the crust did still shrink some even with the EL-7 added to the formula during the bake. I will buy some Harvest King flour for the next experiment.

I guess I will find out if I like a cracker-style crust and pizza after a few  more experiments.

Norma

EDIT (3/22/13): For the updated link to the PMQ recipe, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/ (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Chicago-Cracker-Style-Pizza-Crust/record/57734/)
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 27, 2011, 07:22:26 PM
Norma,

I would use the same dough formulation you used the last time. For the first dough, I would use a starting thickness factor of 0.07 for a 15" skin that is cut back to 14" to be fitted into the 14" pan. The thickness factor for the skin itself when in the pan should be around 0.05-0.06. For the second dough, I think I would use a starting thickness factor of around 0.105, with the objective of ending up with a 14" skin with a thickness factor of around 0.09 when fitted within its 14" pan.

To put matters into perspective, I estimate that the thickness factor for a skin made in accordance with DKM's instructions to be around 0.09. It is always a challenge to take a large skin and cut a smaller skin out of it to fit its pan and to have a thickness factor that yields the desired finished crust characteristics. This would not be a problem if you were able to roll out a piece of dough using a rolling pin to exactly 14" and have a final skin that is perfectly round. That is not likely. That is why I use a larger starting thickness factor to make a larger skin from which to cut out the smaller skin to fit the pan. In a commercial setting, this would not be a problem because, according to Tom Lehmann, at Reply 152 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg65671/topicseen.html#msg65671, there is commercial equipment that can take a dough ball and turn it into a skin of the desired size without any scrap.

I don't have an explanation as to why you experienced some shrinkage in the skin that was kept sealed. My recollection is that I sometimes experienced the same thing and that I just let the skin warm up to see if I could get it back to its desired size. One solution may be to make the final skin a bit larger, as by additional rolling. With some shrinkage, you may still be OK.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 09:49:55 PM
Peter,

Thanks for giving me the formula and instructions to try for my next attempts.  I understand it probably will be a challenge for me to roll out the skin, cut it, and then have the right TF.  I will see what happens with that.  I will weigh any cut off dough this time.

To clarify what I meant about the shrinkage in the skin, it wasnít when the skin was in the plastic bag, it was after the skin had baked.  I guess always there is shrinkage in a skin after baking, even when using the EL-7 product.  One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2011, 10:26:22 AM
One thing that makes me curious about this style of pizza is how long in total time it takes to bake.  With the skin having such a low TF, I would think the total baking time would be shorter.

Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 11:30:58 AM
Norma,

In my oven using my cutter pan, I pre-baked the skins at around 475 degrees F for 4 or 5 minutes (or until the pre-baked skins start to take on color) and, after dressing the pizzas, for about another 7 or 8 minutes at 475 degrees F. It is the long bake at lower than usual temperatures that helps drive out the moisture and produce a dry, crispy or cracker-like crust. The thickness factor is material but only when considered with the low hydration value. At a much higher hydration value, it would take longer to get the crust dry. A major limiting factor of all cracker-style crusts is the hydration value. Once you start to get above about 40-45%, it gets harder to achieve a cracker or crispy quality. In my opinion, you have a much better shot in the mid-30s hydration range.

Peter

I read most of all the instructions you and others gave for making a cracker-style pizza and saw what temperatures the cracker-style pizzas were being baked at.  I wonder if since my bake tempertures on my deck oven are higher, if that somehow affects my results.  Maybe my higher bake temperatures might be drying the crust out too fast.  I had thought about that the past 3 weeks.  I am now wondering if I should just try my two next experiments at home.  I also wonder what temperatures real pizza operators that make cracker-style pizzas use, and if they just bake them right on the deck.  I have seen that some of them are baked right on the deck.  Thanks for your help, again!

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2011, 02:05:22 PM
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 05:14:00 PM
Norma,

Often what happens when you bake a pizza at too high a temperature is that the crust takes on the desired degree of coloration but before the rest of the pizza has finished baking. As a result, the crust can be softer and more tender than desired. I think in your case you might try making the pizzas at home since that would simulate the way that I made my cracker-style pizzas and from which I developed my personal preferences.

I will do some research on typical bake temperatures for commercial cracker-style pizzas. I seem to recall that one of our members who went on to open up his own pizzeria, where I believes he serves a cracker-style pizza, talked about his baking methods over at the PMQ Think Tank.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know that if a pizza is baked at too high of a temperature the crust gets coloration, before the rest of the pizza is finished baking.  I think I had the opposite thing happen to me, as the crust was too tough and maybe too dark.  Maybe I baked the cracker-style too long, but I was trying to watch the pre-bake and final pizza bake, but couldnít really tell how long to let it in the deck oven.  I will bring my blackbuster steel pan home tomorrow, and try one experiment each week, because I surely canít eat two pizzas at once, without the taste testers at market.  I think it is a good idea to see if I achieve similar results as you did, if I try my home oven.  That way I will at least have a starting point to compare how my home oven and deck oven differs in bakes of cracker-style crusts.

I also will look at PMQ later tonight or tomorrow and see if there are any posts about pizza operators baking cracker-style crusts in a deck oven, and what temperatures they might be using.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 07:52:35 PM
Peter,

I always have a hard time searching at PMQTT, but this is what I found.

This post by pcuezze at PMQTT might be what you were referring to.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8430&p=56895#p56895

At this post pcuezze he bakes right on a deck oven at 550 degrees.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10222&p=70213#p70213

550 degrees right on the deck sounds  hot to me.

I also looked at posts by deaconvolker and it does look like he might bake cracker-style pizzas, in addition to others.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10398&p=71521&hilit=cracker#p71512

Maybe deaconvolkerís oven and oven temperature.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10330&p=71048#p71048

and http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10223&p=70177#p70177

I guess there is a lot of conflicting information on using a commercial oven for cracker-style pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2011, 03:46:10 PM
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 29, 2011, 07:27:13 PM
Norma,

You did a good job finding the two former members of this forum who now have their own pizzerias. I was specifically thinking of pcuezze (Patrick) because I recalled that he was using a version of DKM's cracker-style recipe, which he developed while he was active on our forum. What I found interesting is that both Patrick and deaconvolker (Deacon Volker on our forum) discussed using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. No doubt, this can mean different things in different ovens. Patrick was/is using a double deck Blodgett oven for his thin cracker style pizzas whereas deaconvolker is using a conveyor oven. At one point, I am pretty sure that Patrick posted photos via a link but when I found the link and tried to open it, it was no longer operative.

I thought that you might be interested in the following PMQ Think Tank thread: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54479. From the information that Patrick posted in that thread on the skin he used for the cracker style pizza, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.06 (in a later post he mentions a thickness factor of 0.55-0.58 but I am sure he meant 0.055-0.058). The 0.06 value is one that I mentioned to you to get a crispy crust version of DKM's cracker style pizza. You might also note Tom Lehmann's comment at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7922&p=55172#p54899 where he mentions using PZ-44 with a low hydration dough to "get the dough to press out decently". As you know, PZ-44 includes L-Cysteine, which is also one of the ingredients in the EL-7 product that you have been testing with DKM's basic recipe.

You might also find these threads/posts by Patrick of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7614.msg65298.html#msg65298 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg90547.html#msg90547.

Peter

Peter,

I saw those posts over at PMQTT from Tom and Patrick, but didnít see their posts on this forum. 
It is interesting that Patrick used a flatbeater to mix his dough for his cracker-style pizza at home, and he also laminated his dough and used high-gluten flour.  Now I am torn between trying your brand of flour and the KASL flour I do have here at home.  What flour do you now recommend.  I also saw Patrick and Deacon Volker used two different kinds of ovens from their posts at PMQTT.

I also saw the link to Johnís (fazzariís) formula you calculated from the other link on Patrick thread.

When I went to market today,  I looked in my deli case there was the cut off piece of dough from Tuesday.  I weighed it when I came home from market, and it weighed 101 grams.  I wonder if that dough would still be good to try in my home oven on my pizza stone, just to see how the dough acts in my home oven, without a pan.  The 101 grams, still doesnít account for the small amount I cut off the dough when I cut the dough to make it round.

I did know PZ-44 contains L-Cysteine, which is one of the ingredients of the EL-7 product.

Thanks for the additional links!

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2011, 09:04:11 PM
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time. 

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 29, 2011, 10:54:21 PM
Norma,

I also tried using my basic KitchenAid stand mixer to make a DKM cracker-style pizza dough and, in so doing, like Patrick, I used the paddle (flat beater) attachment in lieu of the C-hook. I discussed my results at Reply 49 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49400.html#msg49400. For the dough described in that post, I used the Harvest King/Better for Bread flour. I might have tried the KASL flour but by that time I had used up all of my KASL flour and did not want to buy a new 50-pound bag because of the problems I have here in Texas with flour bugs and their rampant sexual promiscuity that goes on in my pantry. That is one of the reasons why I now stick to what I can find in my local supermarkets and buy in small quantities. In your case, you should feel free to use whatever flour you want, except I would not use all-purpose flour this time.  

With respect to the piece of dough that you have that weighs 101 grams, if you want to make a small pizza out of it using a thickness factor of say, 0.06, the size of the pizza comes to two times the square root of (101)/(28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 8.7", or a bit shy of 9". I wouldn't worry about the skin being exactly round. The purpose of the test would be to get an idea as to the character of the crust when baked in your home oven. Of course, you may have to adjust the bake times because of the small size of the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to where you made the DKM cracker-style dough with a autolyse and a paddle attachment.  After what you reported on that pizza, about it was a bit different than the crust made with the your food processor, I think I will stick to my food processor, at least for the next experiment. I will think it over, whether I want to try Harvest King/Better for Bread flour, or KASL.  I have both of those flours.  I better soon start using up all the flours I have in my kitchen, or I might have the same problems as you did.  I had to chuckle about you saying about your flour bugs, and their rampant sexual promiscuity, that goes on in your pantry.  

I will try a small pizza tomorrow out of the 101 grams of dough I had left.  I remembered I had saved the dough for my daughter that likes raw pie dough, but forgot about it, in a rush to get out of the heat.  My daughter also thinks the leftover cracker-style dough is good to eat raw.  Thanks for figuring out how much I should roll out the dough. I do want to see how different the leftover piece of dough bakes at a lower bake temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 11:37:18 AM
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza.  The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market.  Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender.  I really enjoy this style of pizza now.  I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasnít liking my results before.  I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like.  I ate three small slices of this pie. 

This small pie was dressed with Lesís tomato sauce I made yesterday, a blend of mozzarella, and fresh basil from my garden after the bake.

Thanks Peter, for helping learn more about this style of pizza, and helping me though the process, until I finally got it right.  :)

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 11:38:26 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 11:39:43 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 11:42:23 AM
I mixed another cracker-style dough this morning and used the same formula I did before, but used Better for Bread flour and Flesichmannís ADY.  I did sift the flour before mixing, in my food processor, so maybe the dough would hydrate better.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 12:37:43 PM
These are the pictures of the rolling out and cutting process.  There was 150 grams of dough I did cut off.  Hopefully the TF is okay.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 12:38:18 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2011, 12:47:10 PM
If I must say so myself, my home oven made a big difference, in the scrap dough I used for the cracker-style pizza.  The cracker-style pizza made today was really very enjoyable, and not tough like the last 3 attempts at market.  Each bite was crackery, crisp, and tender.  I really enjoy this style of pizza now.  I almost was ready to give up, on the cracker-style pizza, because I sure wasnít liking my results before.  I now think I found a new kind of pizza I really like.  I ate three small slices of this pie. 

Norma,

I'm glad that things worked out better for you this time with the cracker-style pizza you made. I'm glad that I was able to talk you back in off of the ledge :-D. I, too, had a rough time with the cracker style when I first experimented with it. But, I stuck with it, refusing to let it beat me. I eventually concluded that the skin thickness (thickness factor) was an important component to success, along with being able to get the dough in good enough condition to be able to roll it out easily and quickly. The use of a cutter pan was also an important component for my particular oven and home application. For me, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 became my "bible" for the cracker style because it was pretty much self contained with a lot of detailed dough formulations and instructions and techniques and hints for many different variations of DKM's recipe and a lot of other useful information and guidance that John Fazzari, BTB, Jon (Jackitup) and a few other members contributed to that style.

Had I thought of it, I would have mentioned earlier that I, too, found that I could use scrap dough to make a small cracker style pizza, as I noted at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49257.html#msg49257. In that instance, I used a lamination method and I did not pre-bake the skin but the skin had a thickness factor of about 0.06, as I have mentioned before as being a good value for my purposes. If you decide to use scrap again to make a cracker style pizza, you may want to heed what I learned from an experiment I discussed at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50088.html#msg50088. As I noted there, you can go overboard with a very long fermented dough and end up with some funky crust tastes.

In due course, you might try using a considerably higher thickness factor for comprison purposes and to see if you like the results better than your recent effort.

For your latest dough ball did you use the EL-7 product again and, if so, to what effect? Also, did you weigh the final dough skin? That would allow us to calculate the thickness factor for the skin (I assume a 14" skin from the photos).

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 01:41:58 PM
Norma,

I'm glad that things worked out better for you this time with the cracker-style pizza you made. I'm glad that I was able to talk you back in off of the ledge :-D. I, too, had a rough time with the cracker style when I first experimented with it. But, I stuck with it, refusing to let it beat me. I eventually concluded that the skin thickness (thickness factor) was an important component to success, along with being able to get the dough in good enough condition to be able to roll it out easily and quickly. The use of a cutter pan was also an important component for my particular oven and home application. For me, the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 became my "bible" for the cracker style because it was pretty much self contained with a lot of detailed dough formulations and instructions and techniques and hints for many different variations of DKM's recipe and a lot of other useful information and guidance that John Fazzari, BTB, Jon (Jackitup) and a few other members contributed to that style.

Had I thought of it, I would have mentioned earlier that I, too, found that I could use scrap dough to make a small cracker style pizza, as I noted at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49257.html#msg49257. In that instance, I used a lamination method and I did not pre-bake the skin but the skin had a thickness factor of about 0.06, as I have mentioned before as being a good value for my purposes. If you decide to use scrap again to make a cracker style pizza, you may want to heed what I learned from an experiment I discussed at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50088.html#msg50088. As I noted there, you can go overboard with a very long fermented dough and end up with some funky crust tastes.

In due course, you might try using a considerably higher thickness factor for comprison purposes and to see if you like the results better than your recent effort.

For your latest dough ball did you use the EL-7 product again and, if so, to what effect? Also, did you weigh the final dough skin? That would allow us to calculate the thickness factor for the skin (I assume a 14" skin from the photos).

Peter

Peter/Thelma,

I am glad I wasnít the only member that had trouble learning to make a cracker-style pizza.  I, as you, never tasted a real cracker-style pizza, so I had no reference either, to how they must taste, just like you.  After my first three attempts, I knew that couldnít be how a cracker-style pizza tasted, but I wasnít sure what I was doing wrong.  I had followed what I thought were the right directions, from you and others, but my crust kept getting tough.  I am now glad you kept ďegging meĒ on to learn and not go over the ledge.  :-D Since I donít have a  dark cutter pan, I thought why wouldnít a blackbuster steel pan work, but wasnít sure if the blackbuster steel pan was also causing me problems.  I am usually a stick to it kind of person, but when I couldnít figure out what I was doing wrong, I was almost ready to call it quits, until you came to my rescue again.

Thanks for linking me to your other posts.  I can see what kind of funky taste you got.  My dough really didnít look that good from Tuesday, but it still smelled okay.  The taste of the crust today was really good.  I was surprised how good a thin crust can taste.  When you and I were trying to make a clone of the Ultra-thin pizza crust, this is how I though the crusts tasted, when I went to the show in NY.  It is almost funny, that it took me so long to be finally able to created a crust like I remember.  :-D I guess I should have tried a cracker-style crust before.  At least it would have kept you and me from working so hard on trying to clone a Ultra-thin crust.  I did learn a lot in the Ultra-thin thread, but never was able to get that crust right to my taste.

If I used the extra piece of dough for lamination purposes, how big of a pizza would the extra piece of dough make?  I would like to try a laminated crust.

I did use the EL-7 product in todays dough, with the same amount I gave in my last formula.  I really donít think the EL-7 product did help the dough much.  I left the dough sit first on the kitchen table for an hour and felt it, and it felt way to dry for me, so it went into my homemade proofing box for almost 2 hrs. 

I didnít weigh the skin that I had cut out, but I now took it out of the plastic wrap, and did weigh it.  The skin weighs 177 grams.  That sounds like a lot of loss from what my dough should have weighed with the combined cut dough and the skin.  Both combinations should have been 350.69 grams.  The only guess I can make about that, is some of the dried crumbly parts were in the food processor, and maybe some on the food processor blades.

I am glad you stick with me Thelma/Peter.  At least I am able to experience new kinds of pizzas, I never tasted before.

Norma/Lousie
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2011, 05:01:54 PM
Norma,

I will address your question about laminated doughs for the cracker style in a later post but in this post I would like to address the matter of your 177-gram dough skin and your 150 grams of scrap dough.

As you know, the way I practice DKM's recipe is math-centric. By that, I mean that I try to achieve a specific thickness factor for the skin that is to be used to make the cracker style pizza. That is the only way I know to do it to have a reasonable chance of achieving the results I am looking for. This would not be a problem if I had a commercial sheeter or roller. It is harder to do this with a rolliing pin, or at least until one has learned how to roll out a particular weight of dough to a particular size (after trimming for roundness) that corresponds to the desired thickness factor value. The way that I did it with my various cracker style skins was to use the expanded dough calculating tool with a pizza size one inch greater than the desired final skin size. That meant having some scrap dough left over but it increased my chances of getting a perfectly round skin.

In your case, for the 177-gram skin that you made, I calculate the thickness factor to be 0.045578. I'd like to show you how I calculated this value so that you should be able to do similar calculations in your future efforts with this style of pizza. All you need is a standard calculator and to perform four simple steps in succession (without any interruption in the four steps when using the calculator). Here are the four steps:

Step 1: Divide the skin weight of 177 by 28.35. This converts the weight of the skin from grams to ounces. In this case, 177/28.35 = 6.2433862 ounces.
Step 2: Divide the results in Step 1 by 3.14159; this gives us 6.2433862/3.14159 = 1.9873332.
Step 3: Divide the results in Step 2 by 7 (this is the radius of the skin, or 14"/2" = 7); this yields a value of 1.9873332/7 = 0.2839047.
Step 4: Divide the results in Step 3 by 7 again; this yields a value of 0.2839047/7 = 0.0405578.

As you can see, your skin is on the thin side. It is actually quite a bit lower than the thickness factor that I originally calculated for the Ultra-Thin skins, which was around 0.055. Unfortunately, when the thickness factor of a skin is too low (that is, the skin is underweight), there is no easy or simple or practical way of increasing its thickness factor value. If the thickness factor of the skin is too high (that is, the skin is overweight), then all one needs to do is roll the skin out a bit more and trim off more scrap.

In a way, I am kind of glad that your skin came out on the underweight side. I don't recall going as low on the thickness factor as your skin, so I'd be curious to see how the final pizza comes out in terms of crust characteristics.

For the scrap dough weighing 150 grams, if we go with a thickness factor of 0.06, the skin size is equal to two times the square root of (150/28.35)/(3.14159 x 0.06) = 10.6", or a bit over 10 1/2". You may not be able to get the skin exactly round but I think you should come close enough for your purposes. With practice, you will get better with your estimations of how much to roll the skins out.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 05:46:00 PM
Peter,

I appreciate you explaining how you try to achieve a specific thickness factor for the skin that is to be used for a cracker-style dough, and explaining to me how to do the calculations myself the next time. 

I can see my skin is on the thin side, since you did the calculations.  I can understand there is no practical or easy way of increasing the TF after the skin was cut. 

Thanks for figuring out what size pizza my scrap dough will make. 

I know I will need some more practice, to be able to estimate the TF when rolling the dough out for a cracker style crust.  I also had problems with that when I was trying to roll out skins for the Ultra-thin thread.  I think I then put the skin on the scales, and just cut enough off, until the scales showed I had the right weight.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2011, 06:56:33 PM
Norma,

Here is my mini-tutorial on laminated skins for the cracker style of pizza. It is based on my personal experience with laminated doughs, although I also read all of the posts on the forum on the cracker style before I decided to try that style.

As I see it, there are basically two ways of creating laminated skins. The first method entails folding a rolled out skin upon itself one or more times (usually many times) and re-rolling after each fold. For convenience of discussion, I will refer to this method as the "fold-and-roll" lamination method. The second method is to form two or more rolled-out skins and overlay or superimpose them on top of each other to form a unitary laminated assembly (for increased flakiness one may also add things between the superimposed skins such as flour, butter, oil, etc.). Once the skins are superimposed, it might be necessary to roll out the laminated assembly to the desired final size. I will refer to this method as the "roll-and-overlay" lamination method.

In general terms, I believe that both methods work better with high hydration doughs than low hydration doughs. For the cracker style dough, I am thinking of a general hydration range of around 35-45%, or maybe as high as 50%. Above this range, it gets harder to make a pizza with the typical characteristics of the cracker style pizza, no matter whether a lamination method is used or not. In my case with the basic DKM recipe, I chose not to use either of the lamination methods. From past experience, I had discovered that using the fold-and-roll method required a lot of brute force rolling and allowing the dough to rest from time to time before resuming the rolling process. That held true even when I used my proofing box to soften the dough before rolling. Had I made small pizzas, I suspect that I might have had less difficulty, but I was trying to make 14" pizzas, which meant rolling out the skin beyond 14" and trimming it back to size. It seemed to me that the larger the pizza size, the more the rolling and the more the difficulty to get the skin out to the final size without toughening it because of overworked gluten. In just about all of my DKM-styled cracker pizzas, I tried as much as possible not to end up with a tough dough that would impede forming a crispy or flaky crust.

By contrast to the fold-and-roll method, I found the roll-and-overlay method easier to execute than the fold-and-roll method, although that method entailed a lot of rolling also, but not the rolling of multi-layered skins, only individual skins. Again, I found that a higher hydration worked well for this method, as I noted and discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg43956.html#msg43956. I had also used the roll-and-overlay lamination method to make a Chicago-style deep dish crust in order to get increased flakiness in the finished crust. As you might expect, the roll-and-overlay method becomes easier when warming up the dough, as by using a proofing box.

Based on the experiments you have conducted with the EL-7 product to date, it does not appear that that product is as effective with really low-hydration doughs as high-hydration doughs, at least not alone (e.g., without warming up the dough also). Since we don't know the breakdown of the EL-7 product into its constituent parts by percent, it may well be that achieving success with the EL-7 product is a matter of ascertaining the proper amount to use. It may also be possible that the PZ-44 product, of which you now have a sample, may be a more effective product than the EL-7 product when used at the proper level.

In deciding how to proceed using a lamination method, you should also consider whether pre-baking is necessary or desirable or not. In my experience, I found that using a pre-bake was a more effective method for my DKM cracker style pizzas using my cutter pan and oven configuration. I was after a really crispy crust. Had I wanted a more tender, less crispy crust, I might have dressed and baked the pizza in the normal manner, i.e., without using a pre-bake. For the roll-and-overlay method described in the abovementioned thread, I found that I did not have a need to pre-bake the crust.

You also have the option of baking directly on a pizza stone or deck surface. I chose to use a cutter pan for the DKM style pizzas because it allowed me to put sauce, cheese and toppings right out to the bitter edge and not worry about any of those items slipping off of the pizza when loaded into the oven. However, I did not use the cutter pan for the pizzas made using the roll-and-overlay pizzas as discussed in the abovementioned thread. I baked the pizzas either directly on the stone or on a disk.

You might also want to read the posts on this subject of John Fazzari (fazzari). Of all the forum members, I deem his to be the "master" of the lamination method in the context of the cracker style pizza. Not only that, he is a professional pizza operator who specializes in the cracker style of pizza. You might have already noted that he posted regularly on the fold-and-roll method at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991 but also elsewhere on the forum, including at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6604.msg56637.html#msg56637. If I were to embark on a project to come up with a cracker style crust using the fold-and-roll method in particular, I would first read all of John's posts on the subject. Why reinvent the wheel when we have a passionate expert on the premises?

Peter



Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2011, 10:32:39 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the mini-tutorial on laminated skins for the cracker style of pizza.  I didnít realize how complicated trying to laminated skins are, and all the ways that someone could go about trying to laminated skins at home.  Laminating a crust is more to think about that I thought before.

I agree that John is the ďmasterĒ of cracker-style crusts. I will read over more of his posts.   I recently saw Johnís post on his new thought on a laminated crust at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14106.0.html  My scrap dough is too low in hydration for what he did in that thread, but it was interesting to see how his pies looked.

I probably will do a pre-bake, because I do want a crispy crust.

I also agree that I really donít think the EL-7 product did a good job so far in making the skins roll out easier, or the dough softer, expect when the homemade proofing box was used.  Maybe I will try the PZ-44 sample I have now, it future experiments with  a cracker-style pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2011, 10:02:20 PM
I used the skin and scrap dough to make two cracker-style pizzas tonight.  For the skin, I didnít dock, just to see what would happen.  I donít think I baked long enough on the second bake, because my bottom crust didnít get dark enough.

For the scrap dough, I divided it into four pieces, and put the four pieces into one container, in proofing box to warm-up. I rolled the four scrap dough pieces really thin, then buttered in between the layers, then rolled some more, then docked on both sides.  The weight of the scraps doughs together, after being cut round was 124 grams.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2011, 10:03:16 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2011, 10:05:02 PM
4 skins laminated with scrap dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2011, 10:06:07 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2011, 10:07:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 03, 2011, 08:47:04 AM
Norma,

What were your observations on these pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2011, 10:30:00 AM
Norma,

What were your observations on these pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

My observations for the pizza made with the skin, with the same formula I used before, (but changed to Better for Bread flour) is that is was different, than when I used AP flour.  The texture of the crust was less crispy, less tender, and not as crackery as my attempt before.  Although it wasnít as tough as the cracker-style attempts at market, it wasnít the same as my last attempt with the scrap dough.  I liked the cracker-style better from my attempt with the scrap dough.

I am not sure why I didnít get the same results, last evening, but I didnít dock the skin, (because I wanted to see what would happen with not docking the skin), the sauce I used was Lesís made fresh the day before, (it was more chunky and has more juice, than the last time), and I also donít think I did bake long enough after the pre-bake and dressing.  I would guess any or all of these changes, would change the final cracker-style pizza.

The scrap dough that was laminated (with butter between the layers) was crisp, crackery, and tender, but still wasnít like the attempt I made the other day with the scrap dough. The layers did melt in my mouth, but I did prefer the other cracker-style pizza, in all ways.  The scrap pieces of dough were easy to roll out, with a little bit of effort, (using my homemade proofing box first).  I did first roll, then used a tiny bit of bench flour, and that seemed to make the scrap dough roll out easier.  I did really rolled the four skins together before I docked, but as you can see on the pictures, the dough did become layers, although they did stay together when eating a slice.

I never knew before that trying to make a cracker-style pizza would be so difficult, to be able to get the same results.  I thought other doughs that were much higher in higher hydration were challenging (and some still are), but never thought this style of pizza would be so challenging.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 03, 2011, 11:29:07 AM
Norma,

I suspected that you weren't as thrilled with your recent efforts as with the prior one because you did not comment much beyond posting the photos.

In the case of the skin with the thickness factor of around 0.04, I suspect that a good part of the bottom heat passed through the skin quickly to the sauce and toppings. Usually that leaves less heat to brown the bottom crust to the ideal or desired degree of coloration. In fact, the top of the pizza might be done before the bottom crust browns adequately. In my experience, a cracker style crust can hold a lot of stuff on it but I suppose if there are too many things on the crust, or they have a high liquid component, you might end up with a less crispy crust, even when using a thickness factor of only 0.04. I don't think the type of flour is a material factor in the results you achieved.

With respect to the laminated crust you made, at 124 grams and what appears to be a roughly 8" pizza size, that translates to a thickness factor of around 0.087. That is close to what I originally calculated for DKM's recipe as originally posted. For me, that value produced a more tender, less crispy crust. However, when I used a thickness factor of around 0.06 for a laminated skin (roll-and-overlay laminated skin), that produced a crispy finished crust. So, it may be that you have to try to achieve a thickness factor of around 0.06 for the skin to achieve the results you are after. But it may also be that you will have to make adjustments to match the skin with the right pan and oven protocol. As I noted before, I think that professionals who specialize in cracker style crusts are always having to cope with these factors, especially in coping with irregular order flows over the course of a day or where the workers who make the pizzas change often, and that may account for why customers who describe the cracker style pizzas they consume in many of the popular pizzerias specializing in that style do so in terms that are not entirely consistent. With other styles of pizza, I do not think that problem is as pronounced as with the cracker style.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2011, 12:54:52 PM
Norma,

I suspected that you weren't as thrilled with your recent efforts as with the prior one because you did not comment much beyond posting the photos.

In the case of the skin with the thickness factor of around 0.04, I suspect that a good part of the bottom heat passed through the skin quickly to the sauce and toppings. Usually that leaves less heat to brown the bottom crust to the ideal or desired degree of coloration. In fact, the top of the pizza might be done before the bottom crust browns adequately. In my experience, a cracker style crust can hold a lot of stuff on it but I suppose if there are too many things on the crust, or they have a high liquid component, you might end up with a less crispy crust, even when using a thickness factor of only 0.04. I don't think the type of flour is a material factor in the results you achieved.

With respect to the laminated crust you made, at 124 grams and what appears to be a roughly 8" pizza size, that translates to a thickness factor of around 0.087. That is close to what I originally calculated for DKM's recipe as originally posted. For me, that value produced a more tender, less crispy crust. However, when I used a thickness factor of around 0.06 for a laminated skin (roll-and-overlay laminated skin), that produced a crispy finished crust. So, it may be that you have to try to achieve a thickness factor of around 0.06 for the skin to achieve the results you are after. But it may also be that you will have to make adjustments to match the skin with the right pan and oven protocol. As I noted before, I think that professionals who specialize in cracker style crusts are always having to cope with these factors, especially in coping with irregular order flows over the course of a day or where the workers who make the pizzas change often, and that may account for why customers who describe the cracker style pizzas they consume in many of the popular pizzerias specializing in that style do so in terms that are not entirely consistent. With other styles of pizza, I do not think that problem is as pronounced as with the cracker style.

Peter

Peter,

You were right,  in I that I wasnít as thrilled by the last attempts at the cracker-style pizza.  They werenít tough like the crusts were at market, but they werenít nearly as good as the scrap piece of dough I made before into a pizza. 

I think I could have put the first pizza on my pizza stone for a little while (was on the bottom shelf), to get better bottom crust browning. (because I did bake on my middle oven shelf), but I wanted to see how the pizza crust was with just baking in the steel pan.  I would have thought such a thin pie of dough would have baked much faster.  That still intrigues me how long a cracker-style pizza takes to bake.  I saw my bottom crust didnít have enough coloration, and my cheese wasnít burning, so that might have been another option, but I didnít try it. I didnít think the flour used had any material value, but thanks for letting me know you didnít think it mattered.

It is interesting to hear that the laminated crust I used had a TF of about 0.087 and you found when using that TF it gave you a tender, less crispy crust.  I can now understand why John (fazzari) experimented so much with a cracker-style dough formulation, (and flours) to get his desired results.  I donít think any member would understand, unless they also tried some cracker-style pizzas.  They arenít the easiest to make consistently, at least in my opinion so far. 

I can understand if commercial pizza operations do make cracker-style pizza how they might come out differently in taste and texture in the crust.  I also agree, that other styles of pizzas can be more consistent to make.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 03, 2011, 09:58:14 PM
I would have thought such a thin pie of dough would have baked much faster.  That still intrigues me how long a cracker-style pizza takes to bake.

Norma,

The reason for the longer bake time is a matter of basic physics. First, the DKM cracker style dough has a very low hydration--36%. You almost can't use a lower hydration and still be able to form a cohesive dough. The effect of the low hydration is to make the dough stiff and dense. Second, the dough is rolled out. That forces out gases in the dough such that the skin is like a flat piece of cardboard. When such a skin is dressed and subjected to oven heat, most of the heat passes through the skin and works on the cheese, sauce and toppings. In order to get decent bottom crust browning, you have to bake the pizza longer to allow the bottom of the crust to get sufficient heat to turn brown.

To draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator. As a result, more heat is directed to the bottom of the skin, raising its temperature and promoting increased bottom crust browning (and crispiness).

For additional explanations of the above principles of physics, you might take a look at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831 and also the links referenced therein.

It occurs to me that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the oil used in the DKM cracker style dough in order to get a more crispy crust. The oil serves to retain the moisture in the dough and reduce its rate of evaporation, so eliminating or reducing it should allow the crust to finish baking sooner while still being crispy. However, since the oil helps hold the dough together, eliminating or reducing it might require an increase in hydration to hold the dough together and facilitate the rolling out process. The oil also provides flavor and some heat transfer characteristics that might help with final crust coloration. So, I am not sure that eliminating or reducing the amount of oil buys you that much.

I personally think that the DKM cracker style dough recipe is a well balanced recipe. However, to get the results you are looking for requires getting the thickness factor of the final skin right and properly performing the rest of the steps to pre-bake the crust and finish the pizza.

BTW, did you pre-oil the pan you used to pre-bake the skins?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2011, 11:01:25 PM
Norma,

The reason for the longer bake time is a matter of basic physics. First, the DKM cracker style dough has a very low hydration--36%. You almost can't use a lower hydration and still be able to form a cohesive dough. The effect of the low hydration is to make the dough stiff and dense. Second, the dough is rolled out. That forces out gases in the dough such that the skin is like a flat piece of cardboard. When such a skin is dressed and subjected to oven heat, most of the heat passes through the skin and works on the cheese, sauce and toppings. In order to get decent bottom crust browning, you have to bake the pizza longer to allow the bottom of the crust to get sufficient heat to turn brown.

To draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator. As a result, more heat is directed to the bottom of the skin, raising its temperature and promoting increased bottom crust browning (and crispiness).

For additional explanations of the above principles of physics, you might take a look at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831 and also the links referenced therein.

It occurs to me that it might be possible to reduce or eliminate the oil used in the DKM cracker style dough in order to get a more crispy crust. The oil serves to retain the moisture in the dough and reduce its rate of evaporation, so eliminating or reducing it should allow the crust to finish baking sooner while still being crispy. However, since the oil helps hold the dough together, eliminating or reducing it might require an increase in hydration to hold the dough together and facilitate the rolling out process. The oil also provides flavor and some heat transfer characteristics that might help with final crust coloration. So, I am not sure that eliminating or reducing the amount of oil buys you that much.

I personally think that the DKM cracker style dough recipe is a well balanced recipe. However, to get the results you are looking for requires getting the thickness factor of the final skin right and properly performing the rest of the steps to pre-bake the crust and finish the pizza.

BTW, did you pre-oil the pan you used to pre-bake the skins?

Peter

Peter,

I looked at the link you referenced, and the links within, and now it makes me wonder more about the awesome thin crust you, Buzz, and BTB tried with different variations  at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5045.0.html How did the pizzas become a thin crispy crust with the higher hydration, and all the oil you used, (30.9712 % oil, was more than I ever thought could be used in a pizza formula) ever get crispy?  I donít think I can understand the physics of that.  Your pictures and the pictures of BTB on the above thread do look like a cracker-style pizza.  Did they taste like a cracker style pizza?

I see where Tom Lehmann posted on physics 101 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=45476#45476  from your links.  I can understand some of he physics involved, as you have explained to me, but donít think I can grasp the whole physics completely in different hydrations, and some higher amounts of oil, on how they can all work together.

I can understand that reducing the oil in DKMís recipe, might lead to not be able to form a dough ball without the oil.  I also think DKMís recipe is a balanced recipe.  Getting the TF just right, probably will still be a challenge for me.  I am not sure if I followed the proper steps in making the DKMís recipe this past time, because I didnít bake on the bottom rack and didnít dock the skin.  I donít know if not docking did have something to do with my last results either. 

I did oil the steel pan with vegetable oil for the last two pizzas. 

Where do you suggest I go from my last experiment with the DKM recipe, and what changes other than TF would you recommend? Do you think I should try PZ-44 in my next attempt instead of the EL-7 product to see how they differ?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2011, 08:20:44 AM
Peter,

This doesnít relate to the DKMís cracker-style recipe, which I am trying to succeed with, but with your last post with this part copied: ďTo draw a contrast, if the dough has a much higher hydration, it will be softer and expand more easily. The dough is not subjected to rolling to form a skin. In fact, in some cases, it might not even be possible to use a rolling pin to roll out such dough. When such a skin is dressed and baked, the oven heat does not pass through the skin as readily as the one described above. Rather, the dough behaves more like an insulator.Ē   I have watched and wondered how a frozen or regular preferment dough ball would bake into a pizza, after I have rolled out the skin.  Since I do make breadsticks, pizza pinwheels, pizza buns, and garlic knots, and do now roll those preferment Lehmann dough balls (for others product other than pizza), I have watched when rolling, and it seems even with the long rolling there still many bubbles in the dough after rolling.  I had wanted to do an experiment for many months, on seeing how that rolled out preferment Lehmann dough would work in making a pizza, and see how much the rim would rise and the bottom crust would bake after the roll out.  I never got around to that experiment, but do wonder what would happen.  

Do you have any idea how that crust and rim would turn out?  Using different methods and different formulas still get me confused, in how a pizza will turn out.  I did see Tom Lehmann did post something about this at: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080

Edit:  This is something else I wanted to post about docking and rolling out dough, and also is still a mystery to me.  When I make Greek style pizzas out of the preferment Lehmann dough balls, whether frozen or fresh, I do really roll out those doughs and heavily dock them.  The finished Greek Pizzas always want to rise at the rim or edges, when in a steel pan, even after the dough is prepared in the matter I posted about above.  I think I took pictures of one of those Greek Pizzas last week, but didnít post the pictures.  If you or anyone else wants me to post the pictures of the baked Greek Pizzas, to see how the rim or edges looked, I think I can find them and resize them.


Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2011, 09:45:59 AM
Norma,

I don't want to take this thread too far off topic but I believe that the only way to understand the physics and chemistry of cracker style doughs is to just make them. This is what I did when I attempted the many pizza styles that are characterized in one respect or another as having cracker-like or crispy qualities or characteristics. These include not only the DKM cracker style and the Tom Lehmann cracker style, but also the clones that I made of the Home Run Inn, Vito & Nick's, DeLorenzo's, Donatos, Monical's, and Round Table pizzas. And these just scratch the surface. There are literally hundreds of places across the country (the Midwest is loaded with them) that have their own versions of cracker style pizzas. I believe that I can explain the physics and chemistry of every one of the abovementioned pizzas that I attempted but the story would be different in each case. There is also the semantics issue that I mentioned earlier that complicates understanding the various cracker style pizzas. You will drive yourself crazy trying to understand the variations of that style just by reading posts on the forum. I'd be happy to discuss any one of the cracker style pizzas but since this forum is intended to address the use of commercial conditioners in pizza doughs, this thread would not be the best place to do so. I might also add that none of the abovementioned pizzas is like the DKM cracker style pizza in terms of the degree of crispiness, especially across pretty much the entire pizza. I think you would perhaps have to go in the direction of a Shakey's or similar cracker style pizza to get close to the DKM cracker style as relates to the degree and uniformity of crust crispiness.

The recipe that buzz used, and that BTB and I adapted, is perhaps best characterized as a thin Chicago cracker-style pizza. As such, and as is typical, it has a lot of oil, far more than just about any other style of pizza. When oil is used in a dough in large quantities, there are certain effects on the gluten and dough that come into play. I attempted to discuss these effects in a post at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg64759/topicseen.html#msg64759. One of the effects on the finished crust is a tender quality of the crust. Another is a certain degree of crispiness. However, you might note that, in my case, to get that degree of crispiness, it took a total bake time of around 22 minutes. That was because the high amount of oil impeded the evaporation of the water in the dough. As a result, even with a pre-bake with nothing on the skin to impede evaporation, it took a lot of time to drive enough of the moisture out of the dough to achieve the desired degree of crust crispiness. To get even more crispiness, I would have had to bake the pizza even longer but at some point I would have had to stop the bake because the bottom crust would have burned (as it was, buzz said that my pizza had a darker bottom crust than his pizzas). But even at that point, the crust would not have the same amount and degree of crispiness as the DKM cracker style pizza. The physics and chemistry would not have allowed it. You will also note that on the matter of crispiness even BTB struggled a bit with the semantics when he described the crust of his first version of buzz's recipe as follows: It was very nicely crispy, but in a light or tender kind of way -- if that makes any sense. To fully understand that description, one would have to make the pizza as BTB described it.

BTW, for an example of a Midwest cracker style dough without any oil, see my clone formulation for the Monical's dough at Reply 27 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,600.msg53313.html#msg53313. However, you will note the higher hydration value of 52.8%. That would be too high to achieve the degree and uniformity of crispiness of the DKM cracker style. In fact, you will note that I described the finished crust as follows: The crust was crispy on the bottom (a thin veneer of crispness) and both crispy and crunchy at the edges. Yet the center of the crust was chewy and tender. The crispiness persisted even after the pizza had cooled down. The crust was not super thin from a thickness factor standpoint but the crust was not fluffy like, say, a NY style, even using the same thickness factor.

With respect to conducting an experiment using PZ-44, I think that such an experiment should be instructive, even if only to see how the results compare with using the EL-7 product. If you decide to conduct such an experiment, I would try using 2% PZ-44 by flour weight.

Peter

Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2011, 10:56:43 AM
I have watched and wondered how a frozen or regular preferment dough ball would bake into a pizza, after I have rolled out the skin.  Since I do make breadsticks, pizza pinwheels, pizza buns, and garlic knots, and do now roll those preferment Lehmann dough balls (for others product other than pizza), I have watched when rolling, and it seems even with the long rolling there still many bubbles in the dough after rolling.  I had wanted to do an experiment for many months, on seeing how that rolled out preferment Lehmann dough would work in making a pizza, and see how much the rim would rise and the bottom crust would bake after the roll out.  I never got around to that experiment, but do wonder what would happen.  

Do you have any idea how that crust and rim would turn out?  Using different methods and different formulas still get me confused, in how a pizza will turn out.  I did see Tom Lehmann did post something about this at: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=41080#p41080

Norma,

Back at the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.0.html, both Jon (Jackitup) and I attempted DKM style pizzas but where we significantly increased the hydration. The dough formulations, including the thickness factors, were basically the same as the original DKM cracker style dough (the thickness factor was just a bit higher) but for the hydration. It was Jon's idea to do this, so I simply followed his lead. Jon's attempt at the higher hydration DKM "cracker-style" dough is discussed starting at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50791.html#msg50791 (note that the hydration value in the dough formulation should be 60%, not 36%). My effort along the same lines as Jon's is discussed at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909.

There are a few things that bear mentioning with respect to my high-hydration DKM dough. First, in my case, I was not able to roll out the dough using a rolling pin. Because of the high amount of yeast (1% IDY) and a 26-hour room temperature fermentation (at around 67-70 degrees F), the dough was just too extensible to lend itself to rolling. I would have had to use a cold fermentation to be able to use a rolling pin. Your case with the preferment Lehmann dough is different. Cold fermenting the Lehmann dough should allow you to use a rolling pin to roll out the dough, whether it is through opening up the dough entirely by hand or by using the method that Tom described in the PMQTT post you referenced.

Second, as I oiled the skin in preparation to pre-baking, I could feel the bubbles in the dough, as I noted in the aforementioned Reply 119. I attribute this to a combination of high hydration, high yeast use and the long room-temperature fermentation. In your case, with the preferment Lehmann dough, you apparently have also experienced bubbles in the dough when rolling it out. That is perhaps a sign of a well fermented dough with a good gluten structure and good gas creation and retention.

Third, as I also noted in Reply 119, I got a fairly large rim in the finished pizza. Again, I think that that was the result of the high hydration, high yeast use and the long room-temperature fermentation. You will also note that the skin was pre-baked and later finished on a pizza stone (the skin and final pizza were on a sheet of aluminum foil, as per Jon's instructions). Sometimes I pound the outer edges of a skin to get it to be small and flat but sometimes a larger rim will form anyway, especially if the conditions are present that are conducive to forming a large rim. A high stone temperature, such as you might experience with your deck oven with a high hydration dough, would be one such condition.

Finally, you will note how I described the finished crust characteristics, to wit: Overall, I found the pizza to be delicious. However, it was not particularly cracker-like in the sense of the other pizzas I have reported on in this thread. Rather, it was more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust, with a fairly large rim, and with each mouthful seemingly having a different set of crust characteristics. To me, the pizza was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style. It occurred to me later that I was using an electric oven without a convection feature as used by Jon, so it is possible that I would have to modify some of the steps I used to bake my skin and pizza to get a more cracker-like effect or a greater degree of crispiness. One example that comes to mind is to stretch the dough out even thinner and possibly use a lower oven temperature and longer pre-bake time to pre-bake the skin, especially given the relatively high hydration (60%) of the dough. I donít think it would be necessary to reduce the hydration of the dough. In fact, a high hydration is more conducive to producing a crispier crust. I saw no crust coloration issues. Both the top and bottom of the crust had nice coloration.

As you can see, it isn't always possible to transform a dough intended for one purpose to a pure or more traditional cracker style dough. The formulation has to be a proper one for the cracker style, especially with respect to hydration and thickness factor of the skin.

Peter



 
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2011, 11:50:44 AM
Peter,

Sorry, I didnít mean to take this thread off-topic.  I know this thread is about using different kinds of commercial dough conditioners or enhancers and seeing how those products do affect different doughs. 

I can understand the only way to understand the physics and chemistry of cracker styles doughs, is to try to make them.  I do think I was starting to drive myself batty, by just looking at some of the posts about all the thin styles of pizzas (from the Midwest, and other places) and then trying to think over in my head of how they can be similar, different, or even have some of the same textures, or crust characteristics.  Even when a different members explains how they taste, it can be confusing, to be able to know if that is what I want. 

Thanks for explaining everything to me in detail, and for all the links.

I will stay with the current DKM formula, I have used, but add PZ-44 by 2% of the flour weight. Maybe I will eventually be able to understand more about how to get consistent results when using DKMís recipe.  I am not planning on getting consistent results though.  Maybe my one successful bake was a fluke.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2011, 12:29:39 PM
I will stay with the current DKM formula, I have used, but add PZ-44 by 2% of the flour weight. Maybe I will eventually be able to understand more about how to get consistent results when using DKMís recipe.  I am not planning on getting consistent results though.  Maybe my one successful bake was a fluke.

Norma,

You are a natural when it comes to pizza making and think fast on your feet when confronted with challenges, so I have every confidence that you will succeed with the DKM dough. In line with this objective, I would recommend that you select only one size and practice with it without change until you see the overall pattern of things. I know that you are not fond of math but if you follow the steps (Steps 1-4) I outlined in Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347, I think you will get the hang of things after a few tries. Eventually, you would hope to be able to get the proper skin thickness without having to weigh the skins and do the calculations, much like a pizza operator learns from repetition how to make dough consistently well using only volume measurements. I personally will always weigh things since that is the only way I know what to expect, and to help explain the results I get, for better or worse. It's all part of my feedback loop that tells me what to change to make things better.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2011, 05:45:00 PM
Norma,

You are a natural when it comes to pizza making and think fast on your feet when confronted with challenges, so I have every confidence that you will succeed with the DKM dough. In line with this objective, I would recommend that you select only one size and practice with it without change until you see the overall pattern of things. I know that you are not fond of math but if you follow the steps (Steps 1-4) I outlined in Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347, I think you will get the hang of things after a few tries. Eventually, you would hope to be able to get the proper skin thickness without having to weigh the skins and do the calculations, much like a pizza operator learns from repetition how to make dough consistently well using only volume measurements. I personally will always weigh things since that is the only way I know what to expect, and to help explain the results I get, for better or worse. It's all part of my feedback loop that tells me what to change to make things better.

Peter


Thanks for you kind words, in thinking I am a natural when it comes to making pizza, but I had my share of failures, in this thread, and it other threads.  At least I can learn from my failures, and then wonít try to go down that road again.  I am going to stay with the same size pizza and TF and see if I can get the hang of getting the right TF.  You are right, that I am not fond of math, but I will follow your helpful post and try to learn.  I donít believe in volume measurements any more either, especially for the flour and water.

I donít think my higher walled dark steel pan has any direct affect on my experiments, but I do wish I would have a dark cutter pan to compare my dark steel pan to, in trying a cracker-style.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2011, 09:22:00 PM
Peter,

I have a question I want to ask you about using a round pan that isnít perfectly round in trying to make a cracker-style pie.  I had used my round steel pan before when trying to make a cracker style pizza.  I was at Ollieís today and saw the pizza pan I have pictured below.  The pizza pan is heavy, but isnít perfectly round.  I had wanted to try another kind of pizza pan instead of my steel pan in my next attempt for a cracker style pizza with 2% of PZ-44 added.  When I saw this pan today, I thought I might give it a try, but now since I got it home I see it is 14Ē x 13.4Ē.  How am I going to put that number into the expanded calculating tool?  Maybe I shouldnít try the pan I just bought, and go back to the steel pan that is at market.

It has gotten cooler in our area, so I thought I will try another experiment this weekend with a cracker style pizza with PZ-44.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2011, 09:29:43 PM
Norma,

Are you saying that the pan is oval or is it just slightly out of round, possibly as a result of a manufacturing defect?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2011, 09:42:42 PM
Norma,

Are you saying that the pan is oval or is it just slightly out of round, possibly as a result of a manufacturing defect?

Peter

This is a closer picture of what the size on the label says the pizza pan is.  I have no idea why they wouldn't make the pizza pan perfectly round. I don't think the pizza pan is a defect in the size. I didn't notice the size until I got the pan home.  I have enough trouble with trying to calculate the right TF when trying to roll out the skin.  Do you think this pan will cause me more problems?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2011, 10:09:06 PM
Norma,

Can you measure the perimeter of the pan in inches?

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2011, 10:41:34 PM
Norma,

Can you measure the perimeter of the pan in inches?

Peter

Peter,

I didnít measure the perimeter of the pan in inches, but took my measuring tape and the pizza pan off the sloping edges is 11 ĺĒ both ways, so the pan is round.  I didnít take into consideration, that the pan had handles on both sides and just read the size of the pan on the label. The size stated on the label is for the pan measured with the handles.  Sorry for the confusion.  Do you think this pan will work for a cracker-style crust, or should I continue to use my steel pan?

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on September 16, 2011, 09:36:05 AM
Norma,

Is your pan an anodized pan or does it have a coating of some sort and, if the latter, will it be able to withstand the temperaratures at which you would bake the pizzas? If the pan is oven safe at high temperatures, I don't see any reason why the pan might not work for a cracker-style pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2011, 11:06:21 AM
Norma,

Is your pan an anodized pan or does it have a coating of some sort and, if the latter, will it be able to withstand the temperaratures at which you would bake the pizzas? If the pan is oven safe at high temperatures, I don't see any reason why the pan might not work for a cracker-style pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I donít think the pizza pan is anodized. I think it is coated with something else. The pan is very heavy. I looked online for information about the Marcus Samuelsson pizza pan, but canít find any information what it is made of, or if it can withstand any higher temperatures.  The only kind of other bake ware I can find is a Marcus Samuelsson Roasting pan. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LH4A7O/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002LH4A7O/?tag=pizzamaking-20)
It says on the product features what the Roasting pan is made of, and it is oven-safe to 400 degrees F.  It know makes me wonder if the Marcus Samuelsson pizza pan is made of the same materials and only might be able to be used to 400 degrees F.  I should have passed up this pizza pan, until I knew more information about it.  I might need to return it.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2011, 09:21:42 PM
I decided to use my 12Ē steel pan to do the experiment with DKMís cracker style dough formula with 2% PZ-44.  I mixed the dough according to the exact directions given at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg49042.html#msg49042
I let the dough ball rest coated with oil for 1 hr. 45 minutes at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough ball really wasnít easy to roll out, without using the proofing box, but it was manageable and could be rolled out in about 6 minutes.  I donít know what the white spots are from that were on the dough ball after it fermented for 1 hr. 45 minutes.  They werenít there after I mixed the dough.  I weighed the rolled out skin after it was cut and it weighed 224 grams.  Hopefully, this time I came close to the desired dough weight for a TF of 0.07.  I did use a formula for a 13Ē pizza and then cut it to 12Ē.  I am going to use the skin to bake a pizza tomorrow.  If this crust doesnít get thin and crispy, I donít know if I am going to do another experiment with the DKMís cracker style pizza with PZ-44, because so far my results didnít have much success.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2011, 09:23:37 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2011, 11:03:55 PM
This is the formula I used for my attempt at a DKM cracker style dough using 2% PZ-44. I used Peterís instructions at Reply 180 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg148347.html#msg148347  and figured out I have a TF of 0.0698623 for this attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2011, 12:47:28 PM
Another failed attempt at a cracker style pizza.  I donít know what I did wrong this time, but the crust wasnít crispy.  The crust didnít taste bad, but as can been seen on the pictures the crust sure wasnít crackery.  When the pie was cut, there was a definite crunch, but that didnít mean the crust would be crispy. 

The skin was left at room temperature today to warm-up for 2 Ĺ hrs.

The pie was dressed with sauce, a blend of mozzarellas, and pepperoni. I would rate the pizza decent in final taste, but it wasnít what I was looking to accomplish.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2011, 12:49:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2011, 08:05:07 AM
I sent a question to Foremost Farms on their contact page, because it was bugging me if adding the PZ-44 had anything to do with the results of my last attempt at trying the cracker style pizza and my failed attempt.  I just wondered since the PZ-44 was added to the formula and the dough did seem to be able to rolled out without using a proofing box, if somehow that would have affected not getting a crackery crisp crust. I read the directions and usage recommended amounts for PZ-44, but I couldnít see anything about a real low hydration dough.  I received an email yesterday from Joan Behr at Foremost Farms and she said the person that can answer my questions will return to the office on Thursday of this week. She said the person is attending a conference out of state. She forwarded my message so that she could connect with me upon her return.  Joan told me the contact person is Jenny Reuter and gave me her email address.  I am going to write her a more detailed email, because on the contact page, you are limited to how many letters can be put into a question.  It was probably something I did wrong with the attempted crackery crispy crust, but I just wanted to make sure the PZ-44 didnít have something to do with my results.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2011, 02:50:31 PM
This post is to report that Jenny Reuter of Foremost Farms did contact me later this morning, by telephone. We talked about if there could be a reason when using PZ-44 in a formula, like I used for the cracker-style  pizza, if PZ-44 could have changed my results.  I had sent Jenny Reuter a detailed email about how I mixed the dough, rolled the dough, and so forth.  I also sent the pictures of my failed attempt. I asked Jenny about using PZ-44 in a low hydration dough and she said most people think PZ-44 will make the dough relax right away.  I explained I didnít think the dough with PZ-44 added would relax right away, but in about 40% less time than if no PZ-44 was added to the mix.  Jenny asked me if I used the PZ-44 (2%) by using that number in relationship to the flour used in the mix and I said yes. I said I understood Bakerís percents. She also asked me if I used more water in the formula than I usually use and I said no.  She gave a couple of explanations on maybe why my crust didnít get crispy and crackery.  She said maybe the gluten developed too much while I was mixing the dough or maybe from the time I rolled out the dough, until the next day when I used the dough to make the pizza, there might have been too much gluten formed.  She told me to try 1% of the PZ-44 in the formula, and also if that didnít work to reduce the mix time, or maybe try the dough not long after it is rolled out.  She said the crust wouldnít have as good of taste if the dough was used not as long as after I rolled out the dough and I said I understood that.  I really donít think I am going to do all these experiments again to find out what might have happened in my failed attempt, but it was interesting to hear what Jenny had to say. I told Jenny that I had experimented some with Caravan dough enhancers.  I also told Jenny that I plan on using PZ-44 in some other experiments.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2011, 08:03:51 PM
I had mentioned in the MM thread  at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154053.html#msg154053
that John Johansen had offered to send me a sample of Dry Malt DME-B to try in pizza dough or for a pre-mix of ingredients.  I had asked John for any technical information or data he would be able to provide, that wasnít of a proprietary nature.  John sent me a pdf.document that has some information about the Dry Malt, but not specifically about Dry Malt DME-B.  John also told me this kind of malt isnít sold in retail stores and makes a very good pizza crust.

This is just some of what is in the pdf.document.  

Offered in liquid and dry forms, Pizza Perfect Malts provide superior proofing development because they promote full dough fermentation.  Your customers will appreciate the mouth-watering flavor and full-bodied texture as well as the crustís enticing shine and brown color.

The secret to a better pizza isnít in the toppings.  Itís in the crust!  Make your pizza noticeably better.  Add Pizza Perfect Malts to your formulas.  Your customers are sure to taste and see the difference.

Malt Adds Pizzazz to Your Pizza
We recommend starting with 2 to 5% of the flour weight.  (John told me he recommends 2% of the flour weight)

Pizza Perfect Malt Formula with Pizzazz

Ingredients
Flour(High Gluten)                                   100 lb.
Water                                                   52.5 lbs.
Yeast                                                     1.0 lbs.
Pizza Perfect Malt  (Dry or Liquid)               2.5 lbs.
Vegetable Oil                                           1.5 lbs.
Salt                                                         .75 oz.

Start by adding all the ingredients and mix for 9 to 12 minutes
Place dough on work bench to rest for 5 to 10 minutes
Form dough into desired dough ball size, proof for 45 to 90 minutes
Now place dough into retarder for 8 to 12 hours.

Malt Types

The food processor has various types of malts available:  extracts, syrups, liquid and dry, enzymatic or non-enzymatic, dark or light colored, on the flavor and color, enzyme systems, texture, and eye appeal desired in the finished product.  The type malt selected for use thus should be determined by considering it solids content, enzymatic activity, color, pH, reducing sugar level, protein, ash and microbiological profiles.

The relatively high physiological and nutritional values of malts are based on their very easily digested carbohydrates, low sucrose content, enzymatically hydrolyzed proteins, vitamins, minerals, enzymes and highly distinctive flavor and aroma components.  The saccharine profile of malt extract show 1-2% fructose 7-10% glucose 1-3% sucrose, 39-42% maltose, 10-15% maltotriose and 25-30% higher saccharine.

What I am wondering is when I get the sample of the dry malt John said he is sending me, what might be the Bakerís percents for the above formula for me to try for a NY style 16Ē pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2011, 08:18:53 PM
What I am wondering is when I get the sample of the dry malt John said he is sending me, what might be the Bakerís percents for the above formula for me to try for a NY style 16Ē pizza.

Norma,

The baker's percent for the dry malt is 2.5/100 = 2.5%. Unfortunately, the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html does not include dry malt as one of its ingredients, only the liquid form. However, you can use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy and ignore the volume measurements. For your purposes, you will have to decide on the thickness factor to use in the tool to get the weight of dough to use for a 16" pizza.

The dough formulation you posted does not say the form of yeast to use. You might have to check with John to see which form is intended.

Once you are ready and if you need help with the formulation, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2011, 08:44:05 PM
Norma,

The baker's percent for the dry malt is 2.5/100 = 2.5%. Unfortunately, the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html does not include dry malt as one of its ingredients, only the liquid form. However, you can use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy and ignore the volume measurements. For your purposes, you will have to decide on the thickness factor to use in the tool to get the weight of dough to use for a 16" pizza.

The dough formulation you posted does not say the form of yeast to use. You might have to check with John to see which form is intended.

Once you are ready and if you need help with the formulation, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the bakerís percent for dry malt is 2.5% and I could use the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as a proxy.  I probably want to use a TF of about 0.10.  I will ask John what type of yeast is recommended for the formula given in the document.  I will then let you know if I need help with the formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2011, 12:08:51 PM
I did email John last evening to ask him what kind of yeast was in the formula in the pdf.document he sent me.  John sent me an email this morning and said he doesnít know what type of yeast was used in that formula.  I think I will just go with a regular Lehmann dough formula with a hydration of 61% because the amount of water in the formula in the document seems really low to me.  I donít think I have ever made a NY style dough with that low of a hydration.  I donít even know if someone tried that formula out.

I copied the rest of the document and then scanned it on my printer.  This is the rest of the document.  I tried to copy and paste it here, but that didn't work.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2011, 12:09:15 PM
I could have made it easier on myself if I had copied and scanned the other part of the document the way I did the last two.  At least I wouldn't have had to type all the other stuff. At least I learned there is an easier way to post documents.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2011, 01:01:06 PM
I did email John last evening to ask him what kind of yeast was in the formula in the pdf.document he sent me.  John sent me an email this morning and said he doesnít know what type of yeast was used in that formula.  I think I will just go with a regular Lehmann dough formula with a hydration of 61% because the amount of water in the formula in the document seems really low to me.  I donít think I have ever made a NY style dough with that low of a hydration.  I donít even know if someone tried that formula out.

Norma,

From the dough formulation you posted and from the related preparation steps, I would say that the 1% yeast is intended to be cake yeast. So, for ADY you would use 0.50% and for IDY you would use about 0.33%. You are correct that the formula hydration is on the low side. It will actually be higher or lower than 52.5% depending on whether the malt product is wet or dry. The 1.5% oil will also have a "wetting" effect. The dough formulation you posted most reminds me of the original Big Dave Ostrander Old Faithful dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2011, 05:50:20 PM
Norma,

From the dough formulation you posted and from the related preparation steps, I would say that the 1% yeast is intended to be cake yeast. So, for ADY you would use 0.50% and for IDY you would use about 0.33%. You are correct that the formula hydration is on the low side. It will actually be higher or lower than 52.5% depending on whether the malt product is wet or dry. The 1.5% oil will also have a "wetting" effect. The dough formulation you posted most reminds me of the original Big Dave Ostrander Old Faithful dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting, just from the formula I posted, and the preparation steps you thought the 1% yeast was intended to be cake yeast. I still donít know how you figure out that stuff. Thanks, for figuring out the amounts or ADY and IDY.  I remember trying out the Old Faithful Dough in this thread with EL-7 and I thought that was a dry dough, but the EL-7 made that dough seem wetter.  I will wait until I get the malt sample, and then decide what kind of formula I might want to try.  Maybe, I might try the dough formula posted with malt and cake yeast.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2011, 04:17:29 PM
I received the sample of Dry Malt DME-B this afternoon. 

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2011, 08:31:44 AM
I made an experimental dough last evening using the Dry Malt DME-B in the dough.  I donít know if the amount of Dry Malt DME-B was the right amount to use, but I just went from Peterís post at Reply 217 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg154075.html#msg154075  that the bakerís percent for dry malt is 2.5%, so that is what I used in the expanded dough calculation tool, and used the Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup as the proxy. 

I have no idea how the pizza will turn out using that amount of Dry Malt DME-B in the formula I used, but the dough does have a nice color.

This is the formula I used, and also a pictures of the dough last night and this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2011, 08:32:59 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 11:33:59 AM
The dough with the Dry Malt DME-B product was made into a pizza yesterday.  The dough handled so beautifully and easily stretched to a 18Ē pizza, even though I only wanted to open the skin to 16Ē. The dough could have been tossed and twirled, but I didnít open it that way.  The finished pizza was crisp on the bottom crust, and slightly crisp on the rim, with a fairly moist crumb.  The only thing Steve and I didnít like about this experimental pizza was there didnít seem to be much of any taste in the crust, even though I basically used a Lehmann dough formula with added DME-8 dry malt.  The dough was almost cold fermented for two days.  The characteristics I did like using the DME dry malt, was the crisp bottom crust and the slightly crisp rim.  I wonder what should be my next experiment with the DME-B Dry Malt product to find if I can produce a better pizza.

Norma   
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 11:36:15 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 11:37:19 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2011, 11:38:00 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2011, 11:00:24 PM
I received another sample of Dry Malt from John Johansen today.  I donít even know how much of this Dry Malt to put in a formula, or if he wants me to try it with 50% molasses and 50% Dry Malt.  I did send an email to John saying since the Dry Malt is less sweet than molasses, honey, or brown sugar, how this might work to give a crust a sweeter taste.  I didnít get any response to that email and donít know what the data sheets might say for this Dry Malt product.  I donít even know how this Dry Malt product differs from the last sample of Dry Malt John sent me.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2011, 01:35:10 PM
Peter,

I had sent John an email to ask him if he had any technical information on the Dry Malt 377 product sample he sent me recently and asked him if this was the dry malt product he had want me to try with 50/50 molasses and dry malt.  He sent me this technical information in a document, but it wasnít a pdf. document.  For some reason I couldnít open the document, and then emailed John to see if he could send me the document another way.  He sent me this in an email.

 DRY MALT EXTRACT - 377

TYPICAL ANALYSIS

A brown free flowing powder with a very distinct malt flavor and aroma.  This product is GMO free and of U.S. origin.

                                Ingredients                                                                         Malt

                                Moisture                                                                             4.0% Maximum

                                Reducing Sugars                                           as Anhydrous Maltose)   65% Minimum                                         
                   
                                Enzyme Activity                                                                Nil

                                pH                                                                                          5.0  Ī

Do you think an experiment with the new dry malt product DME 377D that John sent me would be of any use to see what happens with adding DME 377D 50/50 with molasses in a pizza dough, or do you think I should forget the experiment?  I have no idea how a pizza dough would turn out using the dried malt product in combination with molasses on a 50/50 amount.

http://www.maltproducts.com/news.whatismalt.html

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2011, 09:52:00 PM
Do you think an experiment with the new dry malt product DME 377D that John sent me would be of any use to see what happens with adding DME 377D 50/50 with molasses in a pizza dough, or do you think I should forget the experiment?  I have no idea how a pizza dough would turn out using the dried malt product in combination with molasses on a 50/50 amount.

Norma,

Knowing that you had received the DME 377D malt product from John, I did wonder how it might be used to make an MM clone dough, including combining it with molasses. However, since we have been so distracted recently by the steady run of experiments at the MM thread, I did not devote much thought as to how the DME 377D product might be used. What is not clear is how much DME 377D malt product might be used with a molasses product and what effect the combination will have on taste and color. For example, the DME 377D spec sheet shows 65% reducing sugars in the form of anhydrous maltose, but as you can see from the relative sweetness chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, maltose has a relatively low sweetness factor relative to sucrose. If a lot of it has to be used to get the sweetness up, even with a sweetener like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup, you may end up with a dough and crust that is too dark. Of course, if the color is of no consequence then you could perhaps use a lot of the DME 377D product.

I think the combination of malt flavor and the flavor of molasses or pure cane syrup might combine to produce a tasty crust. I personally do not think that Mellow Mushroom is using a malt product, so maybe after we have concluded our work over at the MM thread we can think about a way of best using the DME 377D malt product, even if it is not for an MM clone.

Peter
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2011, 11:22:16 PM
Norma,

Knowing that you had received the DME 377D malt product from John, I did wonder how it might be used to make an MM clone dough, including combining it with molasses. However, since we have been so distracted recently by the steady run of experiments at the MM thread, I did not devote much thought as to how the DME 377D product might be used. What is not clear is how much DME 377D malt product might be used with a molasses product and what effect the combination will have on taste and color. For example, the DME 377D spec sheet shows 65% reducing sugars in the form of anhydrous maltose, but as you can see from the relative sweetness chart at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png, maltose has a relatively low sweetness factor relative to sucrose. If a lot of it has to be used to get the sweetness up, even with a sweetener like the Golden Barrel Supreme Baking Molasses or the Steen's 100% pure cane syrup, you may end up with a dough and crust that is too dark. Of course, if the color is of no consequence then you could perhaps use a lot of the DME 377D product.

I think the combination of malt flavor and the flavor of molasses or pure cane syrup might combine to produce a tasty crust. I personally do not think that Mellow Mushroom is using a malt product, so maybe after we have concluded our work over at the MM thread we can think about a way of best using the DME 377D malt product, even if it is not for an MM clone.

Peter

Peter,

I had also wondered how John thought that any kind of malt product would bring the sweetness level up enough, because I had explained some of the experiments I had done with other sweeteners in combination with molasses in the MM clone doughs.  I also donít think MM is using a malt product either, but after the MM thread wraps-up, I would like to try a couple experiments with the recent malt sample John sent me in combination with some kind of molasses product.  I like the taste of molasses in the crust, even if there isnít much sweetness in the crust.  It should be interesting to see what a malt product also brings to the table with molasses products.

Norma
Title: Re: Commercial Dough Enzymes or Enhancers to do Tests in Pizza Dough
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2012, 05:47:59 PM
I consolidated all my samples in one place and got rid of the big boxes of samples.  Those darn big boxes sure felt like they got heavier from the last time I lifted them. Either that or I am getting weaker.  :-D  If any of them might still be good and are needed for any experiments at least I know where to look now.  The samples from Caravan are now in smaller plastic bags.  At least the samples arenít taking up as much space now. 

Norma