Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Ingredients & Resources => Dough Ingredients => Topic started by: TONY on June 24, 2005, 11:03:22 AM

Title: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: TONY on June 24, 2005, 11:03:22 AM
Does anyone know how All Trumps compairs to King Arthur Sir Lancelot?.............Believe it or not there are no distributers that carry KASL in California!!!
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Randy on June 24, 2005, 11:55:10 AM
Tony, Steve I think uses Al Trump and really likes it.  Here is a thread from the past.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1187.0.html

Randy
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: TONY on June 24, 2005, 12:18:43 PM
COOL............THANKS RANDY!

TONY
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: scott r on June 24, 2005, 12:42:45 PM
If you dig back deep into some of the old posts you will find some opinions that KASL is a little better than all trumps.  Having said that, I have used all trumps in the past, and have found it to be great.  I also know that some of the best crusts from real pizzerias I have had were made with it.  I think there is a version that is non bromated, unbleached.  If you have the option, try to go with that one.  I think you will really like it.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on June 24, 2005, 12:52:15 PM
I agree with everything scott r has said. I looked at the All Trumps specs at the General Mills product website, and the All Trumps flour has 14.2% plus or minus 0.3% protein, which is fairly close to the KASL 14.2% plus or minus 0.2%. Both the KASL and All Trumps are milled from hard red spring wheat. Both flours are malted.

Scott is also correct that there is an unbleached, non-bromated All Trumps flour. Its product code is 50143 according to the data at the General Mills product website.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: pizza truck on July 12, 2005, 07:20:01 AM
One other flour I would add to this discussion is Champlain Valley Mills Organic High Gluten Bread Flour - the best tasting crust yet. It is about double the cost of All Trumps however.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on July 22, 2005, 04:13:03 PM
I noticed recently at the PennMac website (at pennmac.com, under the Pizza Makers tab) that PennMac now carries the All Trumps high-gluten flour not only in 50-pound bags but also in 5-pound bags (repackaged). All Trumps high-gluten flour may well be the most popular high-gluten flour used by pizza operators, especially for the NY style.

I had a chance to speak with Rose at PennMac today and asked her whether the All Trumps high-gluten flour offered by PennMac is bromated. It is. Interestingly, some pizza operators, mainly those who make thick-crust pizzas, like Sicilian pizzas, actually prefer the bromated flour because it supposedly produces a higher-rising dough.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Steve on July 27, 2005, 08:12:51 PM
I noticed recently at the PennMac website (at pennmac.com, under the Pizza Makers tab) that PennMac now carries the All Trumps high-gluten flour not only in 50-pound bags but also in 5-pound bags (repackaged). All Trumps high-gluten flour may well be the most popular high-gluten flour used by pizza operators, especially for the NY style.

I had a chance to speak with Rose at PennMac today and asked her whether the All Trumps high-gluten flour offered by PennMac is bromated. It is. Interestingly, some pizza operators, mainly those who make thick-crust pizzas, like Sicilian pizzas, actually prefer the bromated flour because it supposedly produces a higher-rising dough.

Peter

I still prefer the Sir Lancelot. But, All-Trumps isn't too bad.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: suprchunk on August 28, 2005, 11:27:05 AM
Believe it or not there are no distributers that carry KASL in California!!!
Yes there is

Food Source International
services CA
888-889-9282
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: freshflour on November 23, 2005, 08:22:19 PM
I've been using KA SL or Italian Style flour for a while.  However, I noticed that Costco sells the GM All Trumps flour in a 25lb bag for about $6.  I don't think I can beat that price on the KASL anywhere.

Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Christopher on November 23, 2005, 11:26:27 PM
hey, guys,
does anyone know if the All-Trumps carried at Costco is the bromated variety?
i was hoping to get over and see if the store near me carries it. :)
thanks,
Christopher
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: freshflour on November 26, 2005, 12:27:43 PM
I don't know.  I'll make sure I check the next time I'm over there.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Christopher on November 26, 2005, 11:39:30 PM
thanks, freshflour,
we went to the costco near us and they did not carry all-trumps, at least i did not see it. they did have hi-gluten by conagra foods so i picked up a 25 lb. bag to try out. i have my first batch of dough rising as i write this. i will see how the flavor comes out tomorrow compared to the KA bread flour i have been using.
christopher
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: pam on November 27, 2005, 09:25:33 PM
thanks, freshflour,
we went to the costco near us and they did not carry all-trumps, at least i did not see it. they did have hi-gluten by conagra foods so i picked up a 25 lb. bag to try out
The Costco here in Durham, NC doesn't carry All Trumps either. The Conagra flour labelled "high gluten" they carry here lists the protein content as 3g/serving (30g serving size), i.e., 10% protein. Even Kroger Bread Flour is higher in gluten than that (4g/30g serving = 13.33%). Just about every flour chart I've seen classifes 9-12%% protein content as All Purpose flour, and 12-13 or 13.5% as Bread flour, so if the nutritional information on the label is correct, it doesn't even qualify as bread flour.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2005, 12:09:55 AM
pam,

I have learned that you have to view protein information on labels for flour with a degree of suspicion. Some time ago, I found this excerpt from baking911.com:

If you find the protein content, nutrition labeling requirements aren't designed to reveal the precise percentage on its bag. They're designed to give approximate amounts, rounded to the nearest gram per 1/4 cup. For example, a flour with 2.7 grams of protein per 1/4 cup and a flour with 3.3 grams of protein per 1/4 cup would both bear nutrition labels reading 3 grams per 1/4 cup. However, the exact protein level of the second flour is nearly 20 percent higher than the first. To learn the exact protein level to the nearest tenth of a percent, you must contact the flour company and ask .

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Christopher on November 28, 2005, 05:36:02 PM
alright, guys,
this may be a dumb question, but after trying to find some answers i am still in the dark as to what the bromating process? i understand it is chemical and listed as a possible cancer causing agent, but why? also does a package list that it is bromated or are there ways to tell?
i guess if i had to pick a word for the glossary it would be bromated.  :)
thanks for any info.
christopher
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: pam on November 28, 2005, 05:47:40 PM
pam,

I have learned that you have to view protein information on labels for flour with a degree of suspicion. Some time ago, I found this excerpt from baking911.com:

If you find the protein content, nutrition labeling requirements aren't designed to reveal the precise percentage on its bag. They're designed to give approximate amounts, rounded to the nearest gram per 1/4 cup. For example, a flour with 2.7 grams of protein per 1/4 cup and a flour with 3.3 grams of protein per 1/4 cup would both bear nutrition labels reading 3 grams per 1/4 cup..

Pete-zza,

I realize that, but assumed that the variance due to rounding was common knowledge.

Even taking that into account, though, based on Conagra's claim of 3g protein per 1/4 oz, it is not unreasonable to assume that the protein content of the flour is no greater than 3.49g/ 1/4 cup, since convention dictates that 3.5+ would be rounded up to 4g (note, however, that most of the nutritional guides I've seen specify than numbers ±.3 or a whole number are rounded to the nearest whole gram, and numbers in the .31-.69 range are rounded to the nearest .5 gram: e.g. 2.7-3.3 = 3; 3.31-3.69 = 3.5; 3.7-4.3 = 4). Even if we stretch the range to allow 3.49g per 1/4 cup to be reported as 3g, it's still only 11.67% protein content. I don't know whether you've come across any reference  chart that would classify that as "high gluten," but I haven't.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2005, 07:24:03 PM
pam,

Not knowing which ConAgra flour is carried by Costco's, I didn't follow the math closely enough to see whether one could get to a level of protein that might be considered "high gluten". I did a Google search and saw that Costco apparently sells a ConAgra flour called Full Power, which I understand to be a high-gluten flour. I was able to find several other brands of high-gluten flour at the ConAgra website, but not the Full Power brand. It's possible that the Full Power brand is sold only to private brand accounts, such as Costco's. If the flour you were talking about is the Full Power brand of high-gluten flour, I am at a loss to understand why the labeling information is not consistent with the flour in the bag. Your analysis correctly identifies the problem. But you aren't the only one to be perplexed. When I did a PMQ search to try to find more information on the ConAgra flours, I came upon this Q&A:

http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/13874.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2005, 09:24:35 PM
Christopher,

Some flours are treated with potassium bromate, which is an oxidizing agent that strengthens dough so that it doesn't collapse between the time that it proofs and is to be baked. Consequently, the dough can have an improved oven spring. The problem with the bromate is that it has been linked to cancer in laboratory animals, including tumors of the kidney, thyroid, and other organs. Several countries, including Canada and many European countries (and the EU) have banned bromates. California requires that products including bromates be labeled to that effect, and the product is on the state's list of carcinogens. Instead of banning bromate, since 1991 the FDA has tried to convince bakers to voluntarily stop using it. It has achieved only modest success. Flours that are bromated are labeled as such on the packaging.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: pam on November 28, 2005, 09:30:15 PM
pam,

Not knowing which ConAgra flour is carried by Costco's, I didn't follow the math closely enough to see whether one could get to a level of protein that might be considered "high gluten". I did a Google search and saw that Costco apparently sells a ConAgra flour called Full Power, which I understand to be a high-gluten flour. I was able to find several other brands of high-gluten flour at the ConAgra website, but not the Full Power brand. It's possible that the Full Power brand is sold only to private brand accounts, such as Costco's. If the flour you were talking about is the Full Power brand of high-gluten flour, I am at a loss to understand why the labeling information is not consistent with the flour in the bag. Your analysis correctly identifies the problem. But you aren't the only one to be perplexed. When I did a PMQ search to try to find more information on the ConAgra flours, I came upon this Q&A:

http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/13874.

Peter
The Conagra flour I saw wasn't labeled "Full Power," and it didn't have any of the Conagra-brand labels (Kyrol, Producer, Minnesota Girl) on it either: just a plain white bag saying ConAgra and "High Gluten Flour", so I'm guessing it's a private brand. There was also a pallet of ConAgra "Hotel and Restaurant Flour" beside the "High Gluten" that had identical info (numbers) on the nutrition label to those on the High Gluten label.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Steve on November 29, 2005, 09:56:50 AM
alright, guys,
this may be a dumb question, but after trying to find some answers i am still in the dark as to what the bromating process? i understand it is chemical and listed as a possible cancer causing agent, but why? also does a package list that it is bromated or are there ways to tell?
i guess if i had to pick a word for the glossary it would be bromated.  :)
thanks for any info.
christopher

I added Potassium Bromate to the Pizza Glossary.  :)

http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Christopher on November 29, 2005, 12:35:42 PM
hey, guys,
thanks for all the input! i made three pizzas with the conagra and they came out pretty good. i actually did not feel the dough was that much stronger than my KA Bread flour with wheat gluten added so maybe it isnt all that high-gluten to begin with.
i mixed all of the ingredients into the water, used a few pinches of yeast and some starter and used the stretch and fold technique with 65% hydration which worked extremely well for big voids. they came out well, but stilla lot of experimentation left to do.
all in all a decent flour with no distinct differences to my taste buds.
and thanks for putting bromated in the glossary, Steve!  ;D
christopher
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: JPY on November 30, 2005, 08:07:13 PM
Someone mentioned about CHAMPLAIN VALLEY MILLING, INC in NY.  We ordered some of the flour, I'm not sure what kind it is, but it's probably for bread baking.  I was told that they do some of milling for King Aurthur.  The Raplhs (Kroger) markets carry King Aurthur Flour in 5 pound bags for a couple of bucks. It's the all purpose flour and wheat.  And we should be getting the flour from Champlain in a bit.  We've been working with these for a couple of months both for pizza and bread in our wood fired ovens we make.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: freshflour on December 26, 2005, 02:39:29 PM
hey, guys,
does anyone know if the All-Trumps carried at Costco is the bromated variety?
i was hoping to get over and see if the store near me carries it. :)
thanks,
Christopher

My local Costco carries the 50111 All Trumps flour, which is bromated.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: enob on January 10, 2006, 11:26:02 PM
Has anyone tried the ConAgra High Gluten Flour?
My Costco has it but as noted the label is exactly the same as their AP.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Christopher on January 11, 2006, 12:44:24 PM
hey, enob,
i bought a bag of the Conagra Hi-gluton (the plain bag with just type on it) and found it to be a comparable flour as far as flavors go and baking, but not necessarily worthy of any great praise. the only thing that sets it apart is the cost, at around $5 for a 25 pound bag you cant beat that. i still have a soft spot for my KA Bread flour though, but i also have like 20 lbs. of Conagra left! all in all i think it is a good buy.
hope that helps,
chrsitopher
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: enob on January 11, 2006, 03:19:54 PM
Thanks Christopher and your right $5 for 25 pounds is a great deal.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Wazatron on March 07, 2006, 03:00:38 PM
I've been looking for the KASL flour everywhere around where I live, and I can't find it at all.  Just about everyone carries KA flour, but not this variety.

In fact, I've had the hardest time finding any High-Gluten flour.  The best thing I've been able to find (until today) has been Pillsbury Bread Flour for Bread Machines, which I learned from watching Good Eats has the highest protein content of any of the bread flours - that is, the flour made for "Bread Machines", not necessarily Pillsbury’s.

I’ve checked…
Safeway
Albertsons
King Supers (a.k.a. Krogers)

Today I went down to Whole Paycheck (i.e. Whole Foods) figuring if anyone had the KASL it would be them.  Nope!  Once again, they didn’t have it.  And interestingly enough, the KA company doesn’t even seem to advertise it as a product on their website.

However… lo and behold in the bulk section I found a barrel of “White High Gluten Flour”.  It was .79 cents a pound (I haven’t figured out yet whether that’s good or bad, especially for HG flour).  But it’s bulk… so I have no idea really who made it or if it’s any good.

Does anyone out there have any experience with the Whole Foods bulk HG Flour?

Is there any grocery store that actually carries the KASL flour in-store, or do you have to order it online?

Finally, I’ve not seen any 00 flour either – is this another type of flour that you pretty much have to order online?

Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2006, 03:29:54 PM
Wazatron,

If you had seen this thread, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2429.0.html, as well as several others on this topic, you would have learned that you won't find the KASL in the supermarkets or even the high-end stores like Whole Foods. Other brands of high-gluten flours will likewise be hard to find at the supermarket level but some stores like Costco's and Smart and Final do sell high-gluten flour in large bags. The 00 flour is sold in some stores but the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour, which is the favorite of our members at the moment, is not sold at the retail level. Much has been written on the forum about ways to get the KASL and Caputo 00 Pizzeria flours, so you may want to look at the threads under the Resources section of the forum and also under Dough Ingredients.

I suspect what you saw at Whole Foods is vital wheat gluten. It is a form of gluten that is added to other flours to increase their gluten content. If what you saw was a tan color, I would say that it was vital wheat gluten. It is not the same thing as high-gluten flour.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Wazatron on March 07, 2006, 04:27:18 PM
Great - thanks for the info!  I'll poke around the forums more: should have, of course, done that first.

At any rate, the stuff I found at Whole Foods was definately high-gluten flour.  They also had VWH gluten as well, and yeah it was kind of a tan color.  The hg flour was all white, and was in fact labeled as "White High Gluten Flour".  I'm going to try it out with a Pizza Inn thin crust this weekend!   :)
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2006, 04:34:31 PM
Wazatron,

You might check with Whole Foods sometime to get the brand of the flour, or the supplier. Often bread flour is labeled as high-gluten flour.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: abc on July 06, 2006, 10:43:00 PM
I still prefer the Sir Lancelot. But, All-Trumps isn't too bad.


why do you 'prefer' the SL?  it tastes better?  it makes a better NY style crust for you?


In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

i've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

i might try baking my future pies at 450 instead of 540-550...  but perhaps also these pizzerias use not yeast but dough starters....  or try i'll some AllTrumps like many pizzerias do.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: scott r on July 07, 2006, 12:00:40 AM
In my baking, I've started to wonder if KA SL makes a pie that has a crust that reminds me too much like a bagel...

I've been tasting various NY pizzas again and their crust, and when i say crust, it's the outter rim that you hold, and at that, the top not the bottom edge... the 'epidermal' layer so to speak, is very thin and delicate... and the whole slice, rather soft... slight crunch/crackle...

ABC, I agree, every time I eat street pizza in NY it tastes to me like they are using lower protein flour than KASL.  I personally think that the KA bread can lead to a closer approximation of the NY street pizza texture. It also has the added benefit of being unbleached and unbromated unlike most of the all trumps that you will find.   This is why I often reccomend that people on this forum not jump through so many hoops to obtain the KASL when the King Arthur bread is readily available in most grocery stores.

Of course, I have found that mixing and dough processing methodology contributes massively to the finished texture of my pizza, and when I mess up it usually turns out that my pies are too bagel like.

I can guarantee you that NY street pizzerias are not using a starter culture.  They are definitely using commercial yeast.

Before you buy new flour try mixing your dough less, proofing it longer, or both.  If that does not help then try using a lower protien flour. Even all trumps is lower protien than KASL.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: abc on July 08, 2006, 12:05:05 AM
scott... interesting writeup to my thoughts... i had been very high on KASL for a while and had been coasting along with it for months but indeed recently i began to ponder that whereas i once thought i was close as many of us here are, i wasn't as close as I thought.  It it's a enjoyable, high quality pizza, char and all, droop and all, but still different.

i thought the pizzerias use some starter because they have huge balls of dough, and what they don't use or what they do is simply migrate some existing dough to a immature batch, and give it a nice slow, long, tabulated rise...

i wondered this because all trumps isn't a heck of a lot less protein percent than KASL, though maybe it doesn't take much difference in protein to be significant?..., but i thought maybe more likely that starters and a slower rise due to using starters instead of yeast, yields the NYC slice feel that I'm still missing.

i have 1 pizza shop nearby that i know for a fact uses all trumps since i've seen their delivery bags... i also wondered if most places mix flours, all trumps + caputo type comes to mind, but no i don't think this is it, except for DiFaras... 

So if a place uses 100% AT, that's why i thought the shops use starters... because i can't readily suspect another variable.  being that i've never tried making dough via a starter... this is one reason for my curiosity about whether this was the key to unlocking the new lock I've placed on my own trials.

i've used KA bread flour rather extensively in the past but i don't think i've used it with the lehman dough nor the mixing techniques i've learned here.

But one thing,

If pizzerias use allTrumps, then i should work from there and tweak something else that I currently don't understand.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on July 08, 2006, 10:01:18 AM
abc,

I completely agree with scott r that NY street pizza operators do not use starters. What you may have in mind is the fairly common practice used by pizza operators of "recycling" leftover, or "scrap", dough that may remain unused at the end of the day, or just before making the next dough batch. Depending on the age (fermentation) of the dough, it can have flavor effects on the next batch of dough, but in most cases the recycling of the dough has an economic purpose--to save money by not throwing stuff away. In fact, if the flavor effects are too different, customers may notice and complain about the inconsistent results. There is also a practical limit as to how much of the scrap dough can be recycled. In case you did not see it, not too long ago I discussed this aspect at the Lehmann thread, at Reply 388 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg25670.html#msg25670. As you will note there, it will usually be necessary to use something close to the normal amount of yeast for the next dough batch. This is because a "spent" dough is unlikely to have sufficient leavening power of its own to leaven the entire new dough batch.

I might add that there is a way of getting additional flavor in a crust by making a special batch of dough and adding it to the next batch. This is described by Tom Lehmann here: http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?noframes;read=24812. In another writing, Tom described the process, somewhat more simply, as follows (in italics):

Take about 5-pounds of dough and place it in a plastic pail and leave it out at room temperature (covered) to ferment all night. Then simply add this to your fresh/new dough that you make. This will help to boost the flavor too, something like a poor boys sourdough.

I have no idea as to how common it is for pizza operators to use the approach described by Tom. However, it shouldn't be all that difficult to try once you decide what percent of the total dough weight the added "preferment" should represent.

As for the protein content of the All Trumps flour, if you go here, http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp, and click on the number 50121 or 50111, and then the Product Specification link, you will see (in a Word document) that the All Trumps (either bleached/bromated or not) has a protein content of 14.2 +/- 0.3%. As you will see from the Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#S, the protein content of the KASL is 14.2 +/- 0.2%. King Arthur is known for its tight specs and, in practice, their flours tend to be a bit higher in protein than its competitors. However, in the case of the All Trumps, one is unlikely to notice the difference in protein content.

I also wouldn't be surprised if some NY street pizza operators use a lower protein flour than All Trumps or KASL, especially if they do a delivery business. It is not uncommon for crusts using high-gluten flours to get hard and increasingly leathery by the time the pizzas reach the delivery location. Using a bread flour, which will produce a softer crust, sometimes is a better choice for delivery purposes.

Good luck with your continuing research.

Peter


Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: abc on July 08, 2006, 05:47:55 PM
sure, it's entirely possible, with so many pizzerias in nyc... some use a flour other than AT...  but at the same time, more than some use AT...

i'm curious to see if a tablespoon or so of milk into a dough ball for a 16" pie of the lehman dough has any kind of affect.



i do wonder if there is anyone on the forum that has used both KASL and Trumps?  I don't readily recall, but am curious to know how they differ in respective crusts.


many nyc pizza shops offer delivery, local delivery... but they don't build their products with delivery in mind... a delivery based chain like dominos may, but a 1 owner, 1 shop nyc pizza gig doesn't really factor in 'age' time in their product any more than beyond it sitting on their counter before being cut and thrown back in the item for reheating, I imagine.

in any event i'm going to either try:  getting some trumps, milk, baking at 425 to 450degrees instead of 525-550...

the nyc pies bake in their ovens for more than 10min... i have to keep that in mind and they don't come out well done.

it's nice to revive a old thread.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on July 08, 2006, 06:34:37 PM
abc,

You won't notice one tablespoon of milk in about 20-21 ounces of Lehmann dough. If you are serious about milk, you would have to use much more, typically above 25% of the water. It can even replace 100% of the water if you'd like. And you would have to scald it and then cool it. See, for example, http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=24816. It also depends on why you want to use the milk. Is it for crust texture, crust color, more calcium, more flavor, or what? From what I can tell, few pizza operators use milk. They might use a baker's grade nonfat dry milk or dried dairy whey, both of which are cheaper than milk, and that is usually for crust color more than anything else. Using milk in a home environment is one thing, but for most pizza operators milk is likely to be an inconvenience. Apart from the dough management challenges, if they use too much milk it can easily affect their entire bake protocol because of the propensity of milk to cause more and faster browning.

I suspect that you are right about the popularity of All Trumps among NYC pizza operators. I mentioned using a lower protein flour more in the context of delivery pizza.  In that vein, some pizza operators even use all-purpose flour.

Peter

Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: abc on July 10, 2006, 08:22:43 PM
hmm all purpose flour?  i haven't used AP in over 10yrs for pizza....

i was thinking outloud and considered milk for the aspect of crust texture, a tad more tender.

if 1-2 tablespoons of milk won't make a difference, guess i'm barking up the wrong tree.  anything more, and like you say and i wouldn't suspect that pizzeria doughs are that costly as a large amt of milk would make them.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on July 10, 2006, 10:12:58 PM
Tony, or anyone else for that matter,
know of any places on the west coast (Seattle in particular) that carries All Trumps?
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: dinks on July 11, 2006, 02:23:43 PM
I HAVE ZIPPERS:
   Good morning. I am going to list a few places you can check-out.  1 place is in Seattle, Wash. I have no idea if they carry "ALL TRUMPS".

Merlino foods
5200 Denver ave. south
Seattle, Wash. #98108
 #(203) 723 4700
 Contact JEFF

Ital foods, inc.
205 shaw road
So. San Francisco, #94080,CALIF.
(650) 877 0724
Contact Walter.

   Good luck & have a nice day.   (I have other places as well in the west).

~DINKS 
 
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on July 12, 2006, 12:25:59 AM
Dinks,
have you dealt with Merlino?  I remember back in the winter at some point, I discovered them, but apparently they are not open to the public.  Peter contacted them and said he sensed some willingness to maybe do a one-time order, but it sounds like a lot of work and schmoozing is involved.

Anyhow, if you have dealt with them or know someone who does, please let me know.  Thanks for the post.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: dinks on July 12, 2006, 01:44:00 PM
IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning to you. Thank-you for your quick response. NO!!! I have never dealt with them before.  Their name appeared in my files only. I have further information about flours from provision wherehouses but I am unable to locate this paper. Howver my friend one name that appears in my head is DAWN FOODS In Seattle, Wash. The reason I did not list this in my post yesterday is because I could not find the pad that I had listed this info on just during the earlier part of this week. I get these senior moments quite frequently now due to my advanced age. I just located this info. Call them at 1 (800) 422-0547.  All TRUMPS flour is item #00287698 I do not know the price nor any of their rules about selling to the public. These warehouses have rules that I believe they :chef: :chef: are trying to discourage bizzz-nizzz.
   In any event If I can help you further please post. Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.
 
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on July 12, 2006, 10:23:47 PM
Hey Dinks,
I have also contacted Dawn Foods on two occassions.  One time they completely refused me, the other time they said they would sell to me if I made an order with what I believe was a $250 minimum.  So, it appears unless someone on the board knows someone there, we will not be getting anything from them.

If you can think of anyone else or know of anyone, let me know.  I'd even be willing to drive for it, say to Oregon or Vancouver, B.C. (although that might get hairy crossing the border with a 50lb bag of flour...how can you justify that?...I don't think the truth that I am a pizza enthusiast will carry me very far).

Thanks
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: dinks on July 13, 2006, 01:14:26 PM
IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning. I just finishished speaking to DAWN FOODS Customer service dep't. I spoke with Mz. Paul.
 I asked if there would be any way that you can just go in as a member of the public & purchase 1- 50 pound bag of "ALL-TRUMPS flour with-out any hitch. She said to me "YES"!!!! just call them first & place your order at 2 hours before. Here is the item again #00287698. The cost is $12.98. No checks, use cash or credit card. Any problems ask to speak to Mz. Paul.   Now you do not need to drive anywhere.

1 (800) 422-0547

   Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Jack on July 14, 2006, 11:48:43 AM
IHZ,

Just curious if/why you feel the All Trumphs would be better than Pendleton's High Gluten.  I'm just about out of flour and was planning on grabbing a 50 lb. bag of Pentleton's at C&C early next week.  While it will be a vast improvement over the 3% AP flour I've been using, if the All Trumps is significantly better, I should wait and go for it instead.

Thanks in advance,

Jack
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on August 17, 2006, 12:38:57 AM
Dinks,
I love you.  Thanks a lot.  I wonder why the sudden change of heart at Dawn Foods?


IHAVEZIPPERS:
  Good morning. I just finishished speaking to DAWN FOODS Customer service dep't. I spoke with Mz. Paul.
 I asked if there would be any way that you can just go in as a member of the public & purchase 1- 50 pound bag of "ALL-TRUMPS flour with-out any hitch. She said to me "YES"!!!! just call them first & place your order at 2 hours before. Here is the item again #00287698. The cost is $12.98. No checks, use cash or credit card. Any problems ask to speak to Mz. Paul.   Now you do not need to drive anywhere.

1 (800) 422-0547

   Good luck & have a nice day.

   ~DINKS.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on August 17, 2006, 12:59:19 AM
So after doing a little research, it appears Dawn Food Products has an exclusive distributorship of King Arthur flour?  If this is so, I am wondering whether I should still stick with the All Trumps or try and get my hands on some KASL?

It seems like All Trumps is certainly more commonly available than KASL.
Does anyone know if you can indeed get KASL from Dawn Food Products?
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2006, 08:59:24 AM
ihavezippers,

There are fans of both flours, so whether you decide on one or the other will end up being a personal decision. Both flours are very popular and their specs, and particularly protein content, are just about the same, as you will note here:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf, and

http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp#50111 (click on Microsoft Word Specification Documents).

At the GM site you will note two All Trumps flours, one that is bromated and bleached and one that is non-bromated and unbleached. Some bakers prefer the bromated version because it helps strengthen the dough, especially those that are proofed before baking (you can see the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, under “Potassium Bromate”, for details on bromates). The KASL is neither bromated or bleached.

The Dawn Foods location near me in the Dallas area carries KASL. Not all distribution locations, even within the same company, carry all of the same items. So, it will pay to ask if you are interested in the KASL over the All Trumps.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Harv on August 17, 2006, 01:27:47 PM
Just received my 50# bag of KASL today from Dutch Valley Foods.  Ordered it yesterday and it arrived today by noon.  $17.84 for the flour, $15.18 shipping.  On the phone yesterday the rep told me a distributer in my area so next time I can avoid the shipping charge.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: jawjatek on August 21, 2006, 08:13:51 PM
I noticed the KA bakers catalog and website lists 3 lb bags of King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. Thought home bakers like me might  find this useful; forgive me if this is already known. I ordered 2 bags to try out - I usually use 00 Caputo or KA Italian style, because I am trying to duplicate the pizze I remember from living in Italy 3 years.  :)HTH
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: ihavezippers on August 28, 2006, 11:32:58 PM
ihavezippers,

There are fans of both flours, so whether you decide on one or the other will end up being a personal decision. Both flours are very popular and their specs, and particularly protein content, are just about the same, as you will note here:

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/4a1eb4311b0be08b2b590b39ac3f2c77/download/Primary%20sell%20sheet.pdf, and

http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/pflour.asp#50111 (click on Microsoft Word Specification Documents).

At the GM site you will note two All Trumps flours, one that is bromated and bleached and one that is non-bromated and unbleached. Some bakers prefer the bromated version because it helps strengthen the dough, especially those that are proofed before baking (you can see the Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P, under “Potassium Bromate”, for details on bromates). The KASL is neither bromated or bleached.

The Dawn Foods location near me in the Dallas area carries KASL. Not all distribution locations, even within the same company, carry all of the same items. So, it will pay to ask if you are interested in the KASL over the All Trumps.

Peter


Peter, thanks as always for your help.  The fact that the All Trumps is bromated, with the potassium bromate link you gave me from the glossary, has made me less interested in it.  I am not sure if I trust the American Baking Association or whatever the organization was, given there conflict of interest there.  Is there a strong difference in between bromated and nonbromated?

Given KASL's fantastic rep on this board, that will be my first choice if given a choice. 
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2006, 05:00:59 PM
ihavezippers,

I have had little experience comparing high-gluten flours in bromated and non-bromated versions, but if you have reservations about using bromated flours, I would go with KASL or even a non-bromated version of the All Trumps if you can find it. For some additional information on bromated flour, see http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi?read=24141.

Peter
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: scott r on August 30, 2006, 01:43:10 AM
I did a shootout tonight with two lehmann dough batches.  Unfortunately I am out of all trumps for now, but I have my general mills full strength which is the bread flour equivalent of all trumps.   There is no question about it, the general mills flour destroyed the KASL when we did our taste tests.  Both batches were mixed with identical processing, spent four days in the fridge, and cooked for about two minutes.  The only difference is that the KASL batch was 65%hydration and the full strength was 64%.  Both batches of dough felt like they were hydrated the exact same amount with those numbers which made sense since the General mills flour had less protein. 

The KASL was much chewier and the full strength reminded me a lot of Caputo, but with a little less flavor.  The General Mills dough was fluffy and soft inside, but crispy on the outside, while the KASL required more work to chew and was more uniform throughout.  There was no distinct crispy layer, then soft layer and I really missed it.  The other good news is that while the full strength flour produces results that are very similar to a caputo textured pie, it is much more forgiving and would be better for beginners.  It also performs equally well at high temps and low temps (unlike caputo).

Next shootout,  general mills full strength vs. king arthur bread flour.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: abc on August 30, 2006, 08:15:10 PM
Peter, thanks as always for your help.  The fact that the All Trumps is bromated, with the potassium bromate link you gave me from the glossary, has made me less interested in it.  I am not sure if I trust the American Baking Association or whatever the organization was, given there conflict of interest there.  Is there a strong difference in between bromated and nonbromated?

Given KASL's fantastic rep on this board, that will be my first choice if given a choice. 

i too was 'less interested' but i then decided to let try it out for the purpose of being able to find out if i can get my crust closer to NYC style pizza than KASL did.

It did.  This bromated bag is also the bag I see being delivered to nyc neighborhood pizzerias in the late mornings early in the week.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Wallman on August 31, 2006, 03:23:57 PM
I also recently did a comparison of KASL and GM All Trumps (bromated) that I purchased from Costco.  Each dough ball was forumlated using the basic 63% hydration Lehmann recipe. I used an autolyse (mixed flour and water, 10 minute rest, added IDY, Oil then salt).  The dough retarded in the fridge for about 40 hours and warmed to room temperature for 2 hours.

Both flours resulted in easy to strech skins -- continuing to confirm in my mind the benefits of autolyse. I thought the KASL was a little more extensible than the GMAT, but not significantly.  After baking on tiles in a 550 oven for about 7 minutes, I thought the GMAT was a little lighter for in flavor and coloring.  The GMAT seemed a little more tender  I personally preferred the flavor of the KASL pizza, just a little bit.  But my guests said they liked the GMAT better.  All in all, I would highly recommend either type of flour.   The differenences were very subtle. 

Since Costco stock the GMAT in a 25 lb bag for about $6.50, I'll likely start using that regulary when my last few lbs. of KASL runs out. 
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: scott r on September 01, 2006, 12:53:32 PM
Wallman, thanks for the report.

Now I am starting to think that my strong preference for the General mills flour is because it is a Bread flour and not a high gluten flour.  It mkes sense that the lower protein flour is more suited to my lightning fast bakes.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Domino Rich on October 14, 2009, 07:29:35 PM
I talked to a local baker here in CT and was hoping that he would order me some KASL flour.   He said he would, but advised me to buy All Trumps instead.  He said that KA doesn't have their own mill and that they are a middle man for other mills.   He is willing to get me a 50# bag of All Trumps for $17.00,  sell me a trial of 5# of All Trumps for $1.60,  and/or is also willing to order me a 50# bag of KASL.    I think I will try out the A.Trumps first.

However,  anyone in the Hartford area that may want to go in on a KASL bag in the future with me, I might have a source.   The baker is going to find out the price for me on the KASL.   

The things we do to get the "perfect" home pizza......
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: pcampbell on October 14, 2009, 07:50:29 PM
if you do not have any issues with the bromated flour, I am sure All Trumps is a great bet for NY pizza.  I don't think anyone has said "this flour is no good", some just have issue with the potassium bromate. 

I think you are right, that KA does not have their own mills. 

The price here for KASL is about $20 for a 50# bag.  Seems reasonable.  All Trumps is about $15-16 here also, so you pay a little extra to get it non-bleached/bromated, and from a smaller employee owned company.
Title: Re: King Arthur Sir LanceloT vs All Trumps
Post by: Polymandius on March 13, 2010, 02:55:16 PM
[quote author=Pete-zza
pam,

Not knowing which ConAgra flour is carried by Costco's, I didn't follow the math closely enough to see whether one could get to a level of protein that might be considered "high gluten". I did a Google search and saw that Costco apparently sells a ConAgra flour called Full Power, which I understand to be a high-gluten flour. I was able to find several other brands of high-gluten flour at the ConAgra website, but not the Full Power brand. It's possible that the Full Power brand is sold only to private brand accounts, such as Costco's. If the flour you were talking about is the Full Power brand of high-gluten flour, I am at a loss to understand why the labeling information is not consistent with the flour in the bag. Your analysis correctly identifies the problem. But you aren't the only one to be perplexed. When I did a PMQ search to try to find more information on the ConAgra flours, I came upon this Q&A:
 

Peter
[/quote]

I've gone thru about half a bag of the Conagra "Full Power" flour with good results. I am usually looking for a fine textured crust with a nice crunchy bottom and soft interior.  The results are consistently good there. My curiosity got the better of me, so I contacted Conagra, asking about the protien contents of this and one other four they offer. Here is the response:

Thank you for your email concerning our flour.  

The protein content of the Full Power is 14% +/- .30%
The protein content on the High Altitude Hungarian All Purpose flour is 11% +/- 2.0%

I hope this is what you were looking for!  Thank you!

Sincerely,

Susan
Consumer Affairs