Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: norma427 on May 26, 2013, 09:37:34 AM

Title: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2013, 09:37:34 AM
I have been on the journey learning about the history of tomato pies and also trying to make tomato pies since I have been working on the boardwalk thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.0.html) The tomato pie that I was trying to recreate on that thread was a Mack's pizza and I was helped by many members on that thread in my journey.

I recently learned more about tomato pies after watching the Pizza Cuz show on the Cooking Channel and the Papa's tomato pies that were part of the second episode.   http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/05/trentons_famed_papas_tomato_pi.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/05/trentons_famed_papas_tomato_pi.html) I really didn't know about Papa's tomato pies until that episode.  I had no knowledge that Papa's Tomato Pies weathered the city's economic and social change for 100 years and lays claim to being the oldest family owned pizzeria in the country.  Papa's main competitor for the title is New York City-based Lombardi's Pizzeria, closed for a decade in the 1980s and reopened under a new family's ownership.  I really don't know if Papa's or Lombardi's is the oldest pizzeria in the US on record, but I did do some research about how pizzas started in the US at this thread http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14920.0.html)   

As explained in the article above the “Trenton tomato pie” is recognized by enthusiasts as a special kind of pizza, prepared in reverse with cheese and toppings cooked underneath the tomato sauce. 

Some articles say the best tomato pies are at Papa's pizzeria and some say the best tomato pies are at DeLorenzo's http://www.goodfoodstories.com/2012/02/06/trentons-tomato-pies/ (http://www.goodfoodstories.com/2012/02/06/trentons-tomato-pies/) but that might be up for debate depending on each persons tastes.

I am posting the link to what other type of tomato pies there are so no one that reads this thread gets confused on what type of tomato pie I am trying to make.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_pie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato_pie)  I did have the opportunity to taste those other types of Tomato Pies when Bob1 brought me one from Joseph Corropolese Bakery & Deli  at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708) and when Steve and I went to Marchiano’s Bakery “Tomato Pies” Roxborough-Manayunk
at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948)

This is another article about Papa's Tomato Pies at http://www.papastomatopies.com/ (http://www.papastomatopies.com/) There are different links in that article and this is one of them  http://www.papastomatopies.com/reviews.php (http://www.papastomatopies.com/reviews.php) Nick Azzaro explains in this video why a tomato pie is called the tomato pie. http://www.viddler.com/v/23885b17 (http://www.viddler.com/v/23885b17)  I wish I had a direct link to that video that Ed10s26 posted, but I don't.  Nick Azzaro explains a lot about the olden days.  Nick Azzaro says some funny things in the video and one that I though was funny was when he compared pizza to sex.  The video is 8:27 minutes.

There is also a podcast about who is the oldest pizzeria in the US at  http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html? (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?) action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=139640932&m=139650507  The link was from this article.  http://www.npr.org/2011/08/15/139640932/for-slice-of-fame-pizzerias-spar-over-oldest-title (http://www.npr.org/2011/08/15/139640932/for-slice-of-fame-pizzerias-spar-over-oldest-title)  In the podcast it mentions Ed Levine of book “A Slice of Heaven” and the two oldest pizzerias in the US.

This article also tells about tomato pies and what has changed.  http://hamiltonhigh1951.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/19752babie2bazzaro2bpapa2527s2btomato2bpies.jpg (http://hamiltonhigh1951.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/19752babie2bazzaro2bpapa2527s2btomato2bpies.jpg)   

If interested, this article is about when DeLorenzo's Pizza decided to close up shop at their Hamilton location establishment due to the uptick in crime.  http://www.trentonian.com/article/20121128/FINANCE01/121129652/delorenzo-s-moving-from-trenton-to-hamilton (http://www.trentonian.com/article/20121128/FINANCE01/121129652/delorenzo-s-moving-from-trenton-to-hamilton)  My friend Bill and I tried to visit that DeLorenzo's location.  That DeLorenzo's location in Hamilton was closed on April 13, 2013 as reported in this article.  http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/the-insider/End-of-a-tomato-pie-era-in-Trenton.html (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/the-insider/End-of-a-tomato-pie-era-in-Trenton.html) I didn't get to try a DeLorenzo's tomato pie when I was in Trenton, but might in the future.  Bill and I did go to Risoldi's Market & Cafe http://www.risoldimarket.com/ (http://www.risoldimarket.com/) where DeLorenzo's was once located, but they were not there anymore.

There are also many other links about tomato pies on the web, but I won't bore anyone looking at this post with all of them now.  I found some links to where it explains how the Mack's studied tomato pies in Trenton and then how they are related to this, but right now I can't find the link.

Bill and I went on the journey to find a good tomato pie at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html)  Bill and I liked Joey's tomato pie the best and that is what I am trying to create.

Peter set-forth a formulation for me to try at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411)  I mixed a dough yesterday with that formulation and used the mixing method of 1 minute mix time to hydrate the flour and other ingredients, but delayed the addition of oil until the one minute mark.  The oil was then added and the dough was mixed for 8 more minutes.  This is what the dough looked like after the first and second mix.  The dough is drier than most of my doughs.  The final dough temperature was 78.6 degrees F. 

If any member has more to contribute about tomato pies I would appreciate knowing more.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2013, 08:36:29 PM
I couldn't find any fresh cake yeast when I was at the supermarket yesterday.  The man at the service desk told me that they only sell fresh cake yeast over the holidays, or during the winter.  I then went to the calculating tools and used an amount of IDY I thought would be okay for a one day cold ferment.  The baking stone in my home oven was heated to a little over 500 degrees F for over an hour.  The dough ball did more than double in size by a little, but I guess when I went to take that photo the measuring tape slipped.  The dough ball was pressed on fairly hard and the skin was fairly hard to stretch.  It sure could be tossed and twirled, but that didn't help a lot in opening the skin.  It can be seen that the skin didn't open evenly.  I used the stainless steel container to pour on the sauce in a spiral pattern and used 8.3 ounces of cheese to dress this tomato pie.  The bake time was long in my opinion at about 9 minutes.  Although the tomato pie was okay, it sure wasn't like the Joey's tomato pie I ate in Hamilton, NJ. 

The crust was too thick, the crust was too bready and the crust really didn't taste like Joey's tomato pie.  I want to make another dough to try at market on Tuesday, but really don't know what to try.  I don't know if the hydration was too low, or maybe the GM Full-Strength flour was too old.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2013, 08:38:56 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 26, 2013, 09:05:33 PM
Sorry to hear this one didn't turn out so swell Norma...you sure do have that spiral thing down pat though!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 08:25:09 AM
Sorry to hear this one didn't turn out so swell Norma...you sure do have that spiral thing down pat though!  :chef:

Bob,

Thanks for the condolences, but usually when I try a new attempt things don't turn out right.  It then makes me want to understand what went wrong.  I had many pizza flops here on the forum.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Marvin on May 27, 2013, 08:45:56 AM
Wow that looks awful. Lol
It looks good to me.
To be truthful ever since I joined the forum all
5 pizzas I have made have been bad
I think I am trying to hard to be perfect
1 -2 inches thick
2- toppings bad
3-to yeasty
4- sauce to powerful
5-  perfect tortilla
And burned a frozen store bought
But going to keep trying
My daughter is my best critic her reply is always -( doesn't taste like schools)

Pizza is fun :)
Thanks Marvin
 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 08:58:09 AM
Wow that looks awful. Lol
It looks good to me.
To be truthful ever since I joined the forum all
5 pizzas I have made have been bad
I think I am trying to hard to be perfect
1 -2 inches thick
2- toppings bad
3-to yeasty
4- sauce to powerful
5-  perfect tortilla
And burned a frozen store bought
But going to keep trying
My daughter is my best critic her reply is always -( doesn't taste like schools)

Pizza is fun :)
Thanks Marvin
 

Marvin,

If you would look at my first posts here on the forum, you would see how bad my pizzas looked.  I did about everything a pizza newbie could do wrong.  :-D If you look at the Lehmann dough thread I think you or anyone can learn how to make a good pizza from there.  That is great to hear you are going to keep trying.  ;) That is the best way to learn.  I am still learning and have made many pizzas. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on May 27, 2013, 09:08:15 AM
Norma,

I am quite certain that the dough formulation I gave you at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411) is correct based on the information you provided. I realized at the time that the hydration would be on the low side but I recalled that Big Dave Ostrander used a similar hydration value in different ones of his versions of the "Old Faithful" doughs. In fact, if you look at the Old Faithful dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976) and also the one at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605), you will see that the combined weighs/percents of the water and oil are about the same as the Rinaldi's dough formulation I gave you. In Big Dave's case, he was also using high-gluten flour, which should have resulted in an even thicker dough than if he had used a weaker flour. One area where the Old Faithful doughs differ from the Rinaldi dough (apart from using less salt and adding a bit of sugar) is that the Old Faithful skins are thicker than the Rinaldi skins (a thickness factor of about 0.11 compared with 0.0893 for the Rinaldi skins).

Since the Rinaldi pizza maker uses volume measurements for the water, I suppose that it is possible that the actual amount of water could be more, or possibly adjustments to the hydration are made in the mixer bowl.

Can you tell us how much IDY you used?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 09:54:52 AM
Norma,

I am quite certain that the dough formulation I gave you at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411) is correct based on the information you provided. I realized at the time that the hydration would be on the low side but I recalled that Big Dave Ostrander used a similar hydration value in different ones of his versions of the "Old Faithful" doughs. In fact, if you look at the Old Faithful dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg5976.html#msg5976) and also the one at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.msg9605.html#msg9605), you will see that the combined weighs/percents of the water and oil are about the same as the Rinaldi's dough formulation I gave you. In Big Dave's case, he was also using high-gluten flour, which should have resulted in an even thicker dough than if he had used a weaker flour. One area where the Old Faithful doughs differ from the Rinaldi dough (apart from using less salt and adding a bit of sugar) is that the Old Faithful skins are thicker than the Rinaldi skins (a thickness factor of about 0.11 compared with 0.0893 for the Rinaldi skins).

Since the Rinaldi pizza maker uses volume measurements for the water, I suppose that it is possible that the actual amount of water could be more, or possibly adjustments to the hydration are made in the mixer bowl.

Can you tell us how much IDY you used?

Peter

Peter,

I am sure you gave the correct conversions from the recipe I gave you from the man at Risoldi's Pizzeria.  I thought when you posted the dough formulation the hydration looked really low to me.  I then recalled that I did try a Big Dave Ostrander's dough that was similar, but didn't exactly recall what else was in that formulation for the “Old Faithful” dough.  Thanks for your links to where you posted your “Old Faithful” dough formulations.

I think I might try a higher hydration dough if that might give me a better crust.  I think I have enough of the GM Full Strength flour at home to try another dough.  I left the Occident flour and Kyrol flour at market so I can't try them out today.  I used 0.50% IDY for about a 18 hr. cold ferment. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Marvin on May 27, 2013, 04:29:20 PM
Thanks Norma
My mistakes where human eer ?
Like forgot yeast ,to much yeast ,and
Just trying new things
Not going to leave dough out to rise ,didn't like that at all
And sauces are not all alike(less may be better)
Thanks Marvin
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 06:34:34 PM
Thanks Norma
My mistakes where human eer ?
Like forgot yeast ,to much yeast ,and
Just trying new things
Not going to leave dough out to rise ,didn't like that at all
And sauces are not all alike(less may be better)
Thanks Marvin

Marvin,

It doesn't sound too bad if your mistakes were human errors.  It is fun to try new things, but sometimes those results can become confusing if everything wasn't right in the first place.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 06:45:00 PM
I mixed another attempted dough before I went to market today.  I lowered the TF and also upped the hydration.  The mix methods were the same.  The dough felt a little better.

This is the formulation I am trying from photos.  I am using another computer and my printer doesn't want to hook up right to this computer, so I can't print out the formulation sheet.

It would be nice if the next pizza would be like part of this song, "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's amore".   ;D The last photo was a picture I took last evening of the moon in our area.  It sure was big and orange, but the photo doesn't do the moon justice. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 27, 2013, 09:23:30 PM
Beauty full Norma...
It's Cosmo's moon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAU4pf0uhoY#ws)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2013, 09:53:33 PM
Beauty full Norma...
It's Cosmo's moon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAU4pf0uhoY#ws)


Lol Bob, I think I need that light of that moon to make me look younger.  :angel: I recall that part of the movie (Moonstruck), but had forgot about it.  I really liked that movie.  When that moon first starting rising last evening the whole sky was orange, but until I got my camera and tried to figure out how to take a photo the sky turned to black with the bright orange moon.  I never saw something like that before.  So much for green cheese.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Condolini on May 28, 2013, 04:16:17 PM
I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!

You go Norma!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 28, 2013, 04:33:32 PM
I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!

You go Norma!
Condolini,
What do you mean by:  They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie
A half an half?
Thanks!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2013, 09:53:10 PM
I've only been to this place once but the tomato pie was great. Hand tossed thin crust done in the brick oven. They'll do 2 topping styles on 1 pie. Roasted beet pizza, yum!


Condolini,

Which pizzeria were you at that they baked their tomato pies in a brick oven?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2013, 01:15:15 PM
I received a return phone call from Joe Kelly of General Mills today.  I talked to him about me wanting to be able to make a tomato pie and the Pillsbury 4X flour.  Joe told me after I explained what kind of tomato pie I was trying to make, that I should be trying higher protein flours than I have been using.  Joe said to be able to stretch a skin that thin a higher protein flour is better.  He called higher protein flours bread flour instead of high protein flour, but did tell me that a flour like Pillsbury balancer, Kyrol or All Trumps would be better than GM Full-Strength or Pillsbury 4X in stretching abilities.  Joey was going to send me a sample of Pillsbury 4X flour, but after talking to him I don't really think that the Pillsbury 4X flour would be the right flour for me to try for Tomato Pies.   

Joe gave me a formulation to try after I told him I use baker's percents for my dough batches.  He said I could try 55% water, 4% oil, 1.5% salt and 2 ½ percent sugar with a higher protein flour.  I told Joe I only do a one day cold ferment of my dough balls and asked why sugar is needed for a one day cold ferment.  Joe told me sugar is needed for the yeast even in a one day cold ferment to make the dough mature faster, to be able to feed the yeast and make the bottom crust and rim crust brown better.  I said I always thought that sugar really wasn't needed for a one day cold ferment of a NY style dough. 

Joe also told me that GM Full Strength is a drier flour and if I used the GM Full-Strength flour for pizza dough that I could try 56-57% water because it is milled to be a drier flour.

Joe and I got to talking about Neapolitan pizzas too and Joe said there is a new Neapolitan flour that Pillsbury makes and it is called Gold Medal Neapolitan Hearth Style Pizza Flour.  http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/gm-neapolitan-hearth-style-pizza-flour-50-lb/50237000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category)    I told Joe I have a friend that makes Neapolitan pizzas and Joe said he would send me a sample of the new Neapolitan flour for him to try.  I know most members here on the forum prefer the Caputo Pizzeria flour, but what harm is there in trying a new flour for Neapolitan pizzas.  Joe sent me a formulation to try for a Neapolitan dough in an email if anyone is interested in seeing it.  I think this is the same Neapolitan Dough formulation at PMQ for the Gold Medal Neapolitan flour though.  http://www.pmq.com/May-2013/General-Mills-introduces-Gold-Medal-Neapolitan-flour/ (http://www.pmq.com/May-2013/General-Mills-introduces-Gold-Medal-Neapolitan-flour/)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2013, 02:20:12 PM
Well, my second attempt at a Tomato Pie didn't go so well.  I removed the dough ball from the cooler at 1:30 PM and put it in the one tempering device I have so maybe I could open the dough ball sooner.  I only left the dough ball in the tempering device until the dough ball didn't feel really cold.  It then was left out much longer than I wanted.  The dough ball developed a big bubble on the top of the dough ball (which I didn't take a photo of).  When I thought the dough ball had warmed up enough then we became really busy and the dough ball was already floured and was ready to be opened.  I left it in the flour and proceeded to make other pizzas.  When I saw I didn't have time to open that dough ball into a skin, I then quickly put a cap over the dough ball.  We continued to be busy so the dough ball didn't get to be opened until 6:30 PM.  By that time a hard coat had formed on the outside of the top of the dough ball.  The dough ball was somewhat hard in opening it and it even had a tear, which I had to patch and also the skin stretched unevenly.  The dry part of the skin sure could be felt.  So much for that experiment for a Tomato Pie.  The final pizza wasn't anything like a Tomato Pie and wasn't good at all in my opinion. 

I don't know where I am going to go with trying another formulation or flour for a Tomato Pie.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Condolini on May 29, 2013, 04:57:40 PM
Sorry about my earlier post, was having some brain farts yesterday. Here's the website
http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/ (http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/)

They'll do a pie that's half Fat Uncle Tony and half Med if that's what you like. Not the best place for date night, a 16" pie is a lot for 2 people.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2013, 05:51:59 PM
Sorry about my earlier post, was having some brain farts yesterday. Here's the website
http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/ (http://salvatorestomatopies.com/current-menu/)

They'll do a pie that's half Fat Uncle Tony and half Med if that's what you like. Not the best place for date night, a 16" pie is a lot for 2 people.

Condolini,

Thanks for the link to Salvatore's Tomato Pies!  I see under the about part of their website they don't use bromated flours.  http://salvatorestomatopies.com/about/ (http://salvatorestomatopies.com/about/)  I am having problems in what to try next with a dough formulation.  Those pizzas look almost like normal pizzas to me in how the crust is risen after the bake and it also sounds like the ingredients added on the pizza are sure top notch.  I also see they use mozzarella and provolone cheese.  I see those tomato pies are in Sun Prairie, WI.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: kramer73 on June 02, 2013, 12:18:56 PM
I went to Salvatore's for my birthday, and it was AWESOME.

One thing about tomato pies...just like pizza, there are many varieties!

My in-laws are from Utica, NY, and they are VERY serious about their tomato pies.  They have seen Salvatore's (which looks very much like yours, Norma) and we have all agreed that it is not "tomato pie". 

I will post the recipe that I found and made (to their approval) later today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: kramer73 on June 02, 2013, 12:26:02 PM
Here is one that I made awhile ago, and here is the recipe and where I found it:

3 1/2 Cups flour(I never need this much)
1 Cup warm water
2 Tablespoons Yeast(1 package of Fleischman's Active dry yeast)
2 Tablespoons Honey
1/4 Cup Olive Oil(Extra Virgin light)
1/2 Teaspoon Salt

Mix warm water(85 degrees to 115 degrees,should be warm to touch but not hot)with Honey and Salt.Add Yeast and mix. Let sit 5mins.Add 1 cup Flour and Olive oil until well blended.Add flour slowly until it forms a ball.
Knead for a couple of min.( I usually knead until smooth,you know feels like velvet)
Place in warm area in a covered(with a wet warm cloth) bowl till double in size. Punch down and let rise again until double in size.
Grease cookie sheet or baking sheet with Olive oil and stretch dough until it is 12x12" form crust and let rise for 45 min.
Spread sauce on and bake at 450 degrees 15 min.or until brown.

Tomato Pie Recipe
3 tbsp. extra-virgin olive oil
2 cloves garlic
1 28-to-32-oz. can crushed tomatoes
1 tsp. dried oregano
salt and pepper to taste
1 lb. pizza dough
3 tbsp. grated Pecorino Romano cheese
Preheat oven to 450°F. Stretch the pizza dough to cover a greased cookie sheet. Dough should be fairly thick (about 3/4 inch). Allow the dough to rise a bit while the sauce is cooking. Heat a saucepan on medium, add the olive oil and garlic, and sauté until the garlic is just golden. Add crushed tomatoes and oregano. Cook until the sauce is thickened, about 15-20 minutes. Cool the sauce to room temperature. Top the pizza dough with the sauce and then bake in 450°F oven for about 15-20 minutes. After removing the pie from the oven, sprinkle with the cheese. Let the pie cool to room temperature before eating.

Recipe by Frank DuRoss Jr.

for an easier way use Don Pepino pizza sauce on a pizza shell, top with grated cheese bake, cool and serve at room temperature.that's how De Iorios bakery in Utica does it. http://www.deiorios.com/ (http://www.deiorios.com/)

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx (http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx)

Sorry if this is de-railing your thread, I just wanted to pipe in :)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2013, 12:33:41 PM
I went to Salvatore's for my birthday, and it was AWESOME.

One thing about tomato pies...just like pizza, there are many varieties!

My in-laws are from Utica, NY, and they are VERY serious about their tomato pies.  They have seen Salvatore's (which looks very much like yours, Norma) and we have all agreed that it is not "tomato pie". 

I will post the recipe that I found and made (to their approval) later today or tomorrow.

Here is one that I made awhile ago, and here is the recipe and where I found it:

3 1/2 Cups flour(I never need this much)
1 Cup warm water
2 Tablespoons Yeast(1 package of Fleischman's Active dry yeast)
2 Tablespoons Honey
1/4 Cup Olive Oil(Extra Virgin light)
1/2 Teaspoon Salt

Mix warm water(85 degrees to 115 degrees,should be warm to touch but not hot)with Honey and Salt.Add Yeast and mix. Let sit 5mins.Add 1 cup Flour and Olive oil until well blended.Add flour slowly until it forms a ball.
Knead for a couple of min.( I usually knead until smooth,you know feels like velvet)
Place in warm area in a covered(with a wet warm cloth) bowl till double in size. Punch down and let rise again until double in size.
Grease cookie sheet or baking sheet with Olive oil and stretch dough until it is 12x12" form crust and let rise for 45 min.
Spread sauce on and bake at 450 degrees 15 min.or until brown.

Tomato Pie Recipe
3 tbsp. extra-virgin olive oil
2 cloves garlic
1 28-to-32-oz. can crushed tomatoes
1 tsp. dried oregano
salt and pepper to taste
1 lb. pizza dough
3 tbsp. grated Pecorino Romano cheese
Preheat oven to 450°F. Stretch the pizza dough to cover a greased cookie sheet. Dough should be fairly thick (about 3/4 inch). Allow the dough to rise a bit while the sauce is cooking. Heat a saucepan on medium, add the olive oil and garlic, and sauté until the garlic is just golden. Add crushed tomatoes and oregano. Cook until the sauce is thickened, about 15-20 minutes. Cool the sauce to room temperature. Top the pizza dough with the sauce and then bake in 450°F oven for about 15-20 minutes. After removing the pie from the oven, sprinkle with the cheese. Let the pie cool to room temperature before eating.

Recipe by Frank DuRoss Jr.

for an easier way use Don Pepino pizza sauce on a pizza shell, top with grated cheese bake, cool and serve at room temperature.that's how De Iorios bakery in Utica does it. http://www.deiorios.com/ (http://www.deiorios.com/)

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx (http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/tomato-pie-m319381.aspx)

Sorry if this is de-railing your thread, I just wanted to pipe in :)


Andy,

Great to hear you went to Salvatore's for your birthday and your thoughts about their pizza.  ;D Good to hear you thought it was awesome. 

I also agree that the thing about tomato pies and the different varieties.  I know that just from eating Mack's, Papa's and Joey's and the ones near Philly. 

I think I explained the two types of tomato pie in my first post on this thread.  I know about the tomato pies that are in Utica, NY from Dave going there and him explaining what they are like.  I guess there could be a lot of controversy over which is really a tomato pie.   >:D 

Thanks so much for posting your recipe for the thicker kind of tomato pie, the photo and the links.  I am sure members will be interested.  That looks delicious!  You really aren't de-railing this thread, because there are two types of tomato pies.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: kramer73 on June 02, 2013, 01:03:49 PM
Thanks for your kind words, Norma!

Here are a couple of bad pics from Salvatore's.

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 02, 2013, 01:34:43 PM
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2013, 01:42:11 PM
Thanks for your kind words, Norma!

Here are a couple of bad pics from Salvatore's.

Andy,

Thanks for the photos of Salvatore's pizza!  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2013, 01:43:29 PM
@kramer73, I'm in  your camp, the Utica version of "tomato pie" is what I think of when I hear TP, they just top it with a thick layer of rich tomato sauce, thus, Tomato Pie! There is a finishing dusting of romano, just enough to enhance but not overwhelm the tomatoes intense flavor. You say "tomato" and I'll say....! >:D

Dave,

I guess we will learn what kind of tomato pies members like best.  I already know what type of tomato pie you like best.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 02, 2013, 01:57:57 PM
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2013, 02:22:24 PM
The Utica tomato pie seems a little more unique to me, mozzarella on the Trenton Tomato Pie just doesn't separate it from what we think of as a normal pie. To each his own, I don't want to make enemies in Trenton, but that just wouldn't cut it in Utica! :angel:

Dave,

These are the links again from my first post in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.0.html) to where Bob1 brought Steve and myself a tomato pie from Joesph Corropolese Bakery and Deli.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19389.msg189708.html#msg189708) and when Steve and I went to Marchiano's Bakery for a tomato pie in Roxborough-Manayunk.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21096.msg211948.html#msg211948)   They look like the kind of tomato pie you like.  :-D The kind of tomato pie you like is made also in many places near Philly.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 03, 2013, 06:56:21 PM
I decided to make two batches of dough somewhat in the lines that Joe Kelly told me to try at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg256601.html#msg256601 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg256601.html#msg256601)  for a tomato pie dough with a higher gluten flour, but I really don't like lower hydration doughs with a water amount of 55%.  I also didn't like the percentage of salt Joe told me to try.  The formulation I used in in the one photo and the only thing I did differently for the two batches was to use vegetable oil in one batch and olive oil in the other batch.  I have always wanted to compare two doughs side by side to see if olive oil makes any differences in the final bake, even though I read here on the forum that it really should not matter and I also have tried both oils in doughs. 

I never mixed in bigger mixers like a 40 qt. or an 80 qt. mixer and really don't know how my 20 qt. Hobart mixer compares to the bigger mixers in mixing ingredients.  I have watched my Kitchen Aid mixer though in how it mixes dough.  I used the delayed oil method again.  I really watched these two mixes and how long it takes for the dough to mix first before the oil is added.  I also timed how long it took for all the oil to become incorporated into the dough.  I didn't take any photos of the first mix, but did take photos of those dough balls.  The photos are the flour I used this time, which was Kyrol, the formulation used for both doughs, what the ingredients look like before being mixed (without a photo of the water).  How the sugar, IDY and kosher salt was put on top of the flour after the water was added first to the mixer bowl.  The next photo was after those ingredients were mixed for 3 minutes (that is how long it took all the flour to be incorporated), then how the dough looks when it is sloshing around in the oil after it was drizzled in on the side of the mixer bowl.  Both doughs took another 5 minutes of mixing to be able to incorporate all of the oil.  The dough can be seen on the bench and how rough it looks.  The stretchy dough on top of the dough batch was the small piece of leftover dough from the previous batch.  I showed this before in another thread, but dough does get very stretchy in a short amount of time if it is left alone.  The final dough temperature was next and then the dough balls from the second batch.  The last photo is of the dough balls in the plastic bags. 

I sure don't know how I could do these mixes any faster because the oil needs to be incorporated into the dough.  To me, this seems like a fairly long mix when the two mix times are added together, but then a decent amount of oil was added.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 03, 2013, 06:59:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 03, 2013, 07:00:30 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 05, 2013, 01:42:59 AM
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 05, 2013, 01:22:35 PM
Hi Norma. 

It's great to see your experimenting continue.  Thanks for posting what you're trying.

Couple questions: 1) Are you using cool water in your dough?  Do you measure the water temp or just go by feel?
                              2) How long do you leave the dough to sit before you ball it?  It is interesting how the dough gets very stretchy while just sitting there.

Last weekend I made two identical dough balls, both with olive oil, but one I coated with olive oil before a cold ferment, and the other I coated with vegetable oil.  Both were good, but the vegetable oil coated one seemed a little "lighter" and I actually liked it better.

--Tim

Tim,

I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want.  If those things fail, I guess that will be the end of this thread.  Pizza dough is complicated for me and when I think I have one thing figured out another thing crops up that I don't understand. 

To answer you questions I use whatever temperature of water I think I need for the humidity and temperature at market, because the temperatures and humidity fluctuate so much.  I also do the same thing at home when making dough, but at home the temperatures don't fluctuate as much.  I  know the way I do that isn't the best and doesn't accurately work out all the time, but most of the time I am near my desired final dough temperature.  That is something that is just learned from making so many doughs in many ambient temperatures.  To give you a few examples if the humidity is very dry my scaled doughs before balling can dry out on the top before I get them all balled and that isn't really a long time that it takes me to do that.  Fans also don't help and can make the dough dry before balling.  If the ambient temperatures are really warm (around in the 90's) then the dough can also start to ferment until I have one batch of dough cut, scaled, balled and oiled.  It is a tricky process to get everything right and I still struggle as what to do sometimes.  I don't let the dough sit at all before balling.  I also find it interesting how the dough gets very stretchy when just sitting from one batch to the next too.

Thanks for telling about your experiment using two oils to oil your dough balls.   I wonder why the dough ball coated with vegetable oil seemed a little lighter.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: petef on June 06, 2013, 01:20:02 AM
I will keep experimenting until I find a decent formulation, or until I can understand why I have problems trying to replicate the kind of tomato pie I want. 

Norma, is the target dough you are trying to replicate same as Joeys Pizza?

I still have some frozen slices of Joey's pizza and I've been eating it for the past week from frozen leftovers. It's like no other pizza crust I've ever had. It's light, very tender, and is quite resistant to burning when reheating over and open flame. First I microwave it to warm it back up. Then I place it on a hand held wire grill and hold it a few inches over the open flame of my stovetop which makes the bottom crisp as fresh baked. Any ideas on what gives the dough those properties? Do you think the dough is heavily bromated?

---pete---
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 06, 2013, 01:39:11 AM
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especailly when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2013, 08:51:44 AM
Norma,

Thanks for explaining that you use whatever water temperature you think you need to reach your target dough ball temperature.  Makes sense, especially when your ambient temperature and humidity at the market can be so variable.  :o

--Tim

Tim,

There are methods posted here on the forum of how to get a desired final dough temperature that would give more accurate results by Peter, Tom Lehmann and other members, but with me having a different temperatures and humidity at market every week it would be too much trouble for me to use that method all the time, or either I am too lazy to use those methods.  That is why I don't use the methods posted here on the forum.  I don't think most pizza operators (unless they are outside) have to deal with so many different temperature and humidities.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2013, 08:57:15 AM
I have been thinking over what I might be doing wrong and what my limitations are even if I have a Baker's Pride oven and a 20 qt. Hobart mixer to use.  Scott r's post at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846) came to mind in what he said about a very long mixed dough and definitely made with a high gluten flour.  The rest of what he commented on that post also made more sense to me now than when he posted those comments.  I didn't think my smaller Hobart mixer had that many limitations, but after thinking it over I don't really think my attempts can be anything in the crust like a Joey's pizza.  I sure don't have a bigger Hobart mixer to try out that is fully loaded.  My mixer isn't really all of the problem though and since Mack's and Joey's uses Rotoflex ovens, my Baker's Pride is really no match for a pizza that I would like to create and I really don't think I will be able to do that in the end, or after trying many times.

I already see what my limitations are in my mixer and oven.  Although Mack's and Marcua's (now Joey's) both used deck ovens at one time, I can also see the limitations in the countertop oven I use for these attempts.  If I recall right Mack's deck ovens did have a higher head space than mine does.  I recall when I watched at Pizza Brain how those much bigger ovens (with a lot higher head space than mine) baked those pizzas so good even when they were baked a fairly long while with many pizzas on the same deck at the same time.  I guess I really don't understand enough about ovens and mixers even though I try to understand.  To add to what I just posted above, I am not the best person to try new dough formulations to see what happens.  I think trying new formulations just adds to the confusion of what to try, or what not to try when the attempts don’t go well.   

My two batches of dough balls almost overfermented until Tuesday morning when I got to market.  I still have no idea why that happened when I thought the dough was scaled, balled and oiled in a reasonable time.  I mentioned before that I am having problems with the new bag of IDY and my dough balls wanting to overferment until the next day and mentioned I never saw this happen when a new bag of yeast was opened.  I also thought my final dough temperatures were okay.  As can be seen in the one photo my pizza prep fridge is rather cold.  All of the dough balls were fairly hard to open too.  I sure don't know why that happened either, when I used the delayed method of mixing the oil in.  The dough balls almost seemed like they were reballed in opening them, but they sure weren’t reballed.  As the day went on the dough balls sure weren't easier to open either.  The photos of the attempted Tomato Pie dough balls and the Detroit style dough balls were taken fairly early in the morning.  I don't think I could have mixed this dough any faster in my mixer, because it took the first 3 minutes for all of the flour to be incorporated into the flour.  It makes me wonder more how pizzerias can mix so long and have good doughs that work well to make their pizzas, even if my mixing order or times might not have been right. 

These are a few photos of the dough balls and final pizzas.  Although the pizzas were good in my opinion, the rim crust and bottom crust weren't anything like Joey's.  I guess I am just getting frustrated in trying to make a good Tomato Pie even though I did also try on the Mack's thread.  I am not sure of what to try next, but I don’t want anymore dough balls that are hard to open if I can help it.  When Steve and I are busy, it just adds more work in getting pizzas made.  I think I am moving back instead of moving forward in my attempts for a Tomato Pie.  My customers liked the pizzas made with these dough balls, but I am not happy with them.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2013, 09:01:36 AM
Edit:  I forgot to mention the bake times on the pizzas on Tuesday were around 6 minutes, or a little longer.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 08, 2013, 09:53:57 AM
Since I have been having problems with my dough balls overfermenting, or almost overfermenting and the dough balls being hard to open I am trying to figure out what I might be doing wrong.  I thought my final dough temperatures were okay last Monday and the dough felt okay and balled okay.  I also have been wondering how much differently a 20 qt. Hobart mixer mixes than a larger Hobart mixer and how larger Hobart mixers seem to mix better for longer periods of time and their doughs then are okay after thinking over scott r's post that I referenced before.

I decided to ask Joe Kelley when I was emailing him this week about the GM Neapolitan flour what my problems might be and if a bigger Hobart mixers really mixes that much differently than my smaller Hobart mixer.  Joe first told me a larger and fully loaded mixer allows for more consistency in doughs and said I could do a longer mix that helps all the ingredients fully incorporate.  However, I don’t think that is the issue that is causing the difficult to work with dough balls you are experiencing. 

Joe asked me this:  Also, to recap your process, you waited until the dough had been mixing for roughly 1-2 minutes before adding the oil and then how long did you mix after pouring the oil?  Did the consistency of the dough look different than normal when you pulled from the bowl?  I then told Joe how I mixed my dough batches and for how long and the dough looked normal to me when I pulled it from the mixer bowl.  This is what Joe then told me:  That is odd how the Kyrol came out, from what you are saying below I think you are mixing the dough exactly how you should be and an ending dough temperature of 79.6 degrees is ideal.  The only thing I can think of is that you potentially received product that may have been off spec or was not stored correctly at one point in time, it happens occasionally in the flour world.  Other than that I’m not sure.  I did tell Joe I had the Kyrol flour for awhile and thought I would just try it.  Joe said my dough formulation looked okay.

Joe then said this: 
It’s difficult to replicate mixing 100 lbs of flour at one time in a 20 quart mixer, however, I would just focus on being consistent, keep on measuring dough temperatures, use the same ingredients and watch mixing times so that you do not over or under develop dough.  I am biased but I think some of the variables you are having with your dough could be due to the flour that you are using. 

I think I found out there is no way my 20 qt. Hobart mixer can mix like a bigger Hobart mixer.  I had thought it could mix dough well, but it sure can't mix like a larger Hobart mixer.  I decided to change to a different flour for this coming week and I am also going to try to lower the amount of IDY. 

Can anyone suggest what amount of IDY I should try for a one day cold ferment if I have a decent final dough temperature?  I am going to mix the same with the new flour and use the same formulation I used last week. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 09, 2013, 01:51:27 AM
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 09, 2013, 07:33:59 AM
Hi Norma.  I'm certainly no expert on the topic, however, I am used to adding less yeast to my doughs because of the high altitude here in Colorado.  Most guides I read recommend using about one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.  I know your problem isn't the altitude, but I mention it to give an example of how much yeast amounts can typically be adjusted to "make a difference."  I don't know exactly how much your dough it over-fermenting, but a reduction by 20 to 30% should make a noticeable difference IF too much yeast is the problem.

That said, I know you like to make big changes in your protocols from time to time, but science (and Pete) would recommend changing only one variable at a time.  :D

In any case I hope the change (or changes) you make lead you closer to the pie you're looking for. 


--Tim


P.S. It seemed you were having good success with your occident flour, have you considered going back to that?

Hi Tim,

Thanks for telling me that you are used to adding less yeast since you live at a higher altitude in Colorado.  I didn't know that most guides say to use one third less yeast when baking above 3000 feet.   

I know I should not be changing more than one variable at a time, because sometimes the results can become confusing.  I have been having problems with my dough balls wanting to overferment, or almost overfermenting since I opened up that new package of IDY.  I can't figure that out, but Steve and I were talking about that the past couple of weeks.  He is also having the same problems with his NY style dough balls he makes for another farmers market than I go to and his IDY is old.  I am beginning to think it is the change in weather that is making the differences in how the dough balls ferment, but don't really know.  Steve cut his IDY way back for his NY style doughs.  Last summer I did cut back the amount of IDY I used, and know that is not recommended, but it worked okay.  I was just trying to figure out how much I could cut the amount of IDY back and still have dough balls that ferment okay until the next day.  I don't recall how much I cut the IDY back last summer. 

I did like the Occident flour, but since I tasted the pizzas at Joey's that is one reason I am going to change the flour to see what happens.  I think Joey's uses All Trumps and that is the flour I am going to try on Monday.  I did try All Trumps awhile ago, but don't recall how it performed and know I probably used another formulation.  I don't think the method I am using for mixing will make the crust tough, but I will have to wait and see what happens.  I know I don't have Joey's mixer or Rotoflex oven either, so my results won't be the same.  Time will tell if I decide to go back to the Occident flour.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2013, 07:46:59 PM
This is the formulation I am trying out for tomorrow with the All Trumps flour.  The two batches of dough mixed in less time than last week when using the delayed addition of the oil.  This time the flour and other ingredients were mixed with the water in 2 minutes.  It can be seen until I cut, scaled and balled all of the 15 dough balls from the first batch of dough how the leftover piece of dough already wanted to stretch better.  I used olive oil in one batch and vegetable oil in the other test batch.  Both batches of doughs had about the same final dough temperatures. 

It also can be seen that although the market temperature wasn't bad today, the humidity was fairly high and it was raining heavily.  It seems like there is one problem after another at market.  My vent was leaking again today.  I guess I will have to get that looked at again.  I think this will be about the 4th time that vent has given me problems.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2013, 09:48:59 AM
The test dough balls didn't overferment, or almost overferment until Tuesday morning when using less yeast in the formulation, but I do think they did ferment too much for the amount of yeast used and the final dough temperatures that I had for these two batches of dough.  I still can't figure that out why my dough balls want to ferment so much.  The first photo is some of the dough balls that were in my pizza prep fridge first thing Tuesday morning and the next photo is of one dough ball before it was warmed-up also taken first thing in the morning. 

The dough balls did open okay, and they weren't as hard to open as last week, but I still am trying to have dough balls that are easier to open. 

The rim crusts and bottom crusts seemed to brown okay when using the All Trumps flour. 

I had quite a few customers comment that the boardwalk style of pizzas I am making do taste like Grotto's pizzas.  There are more customers purchasing slices and whole pizzas since I am trying to make the boardwalk style of pizzas rather than making a regular NY style of pizza.  That is a good thing for me, but I still don't have this dough down right.  I also had a few customers tell me they are posting on their facebook page to come and try my boardwalk style pizzas.  I told those customers that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market, so if they wanted to share my facebook page for market they could.  I have to make a sign this week that I do have a facebook page for my pizza stand at market. 

This is another thing that puzzles me in how the cheese melted this week with using the new flour.  For some reason the cheese melted better and looked better on the pizzas than before.  I sure don't know what causes that either when I am using the same amount of cheese, applying the cheese the same way and also using the same tomato sauce.

I don't know what to try next in having dough balls that are easier to open and don't know what amount of yeast to try next either.   :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2013, 09:52:57 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2013, 09:57:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dhorst on June 13, 2013, 11:21:37 AM
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2013, 12:17:11 PM
I think they look wonderful.  The spiral of sauce is so pretty.  It may be more visually appealing than the NY style, which may be why people are buying more.  Or that words getting out on where to get some great pizza.

Diana,

Thanks for your kind comments.   :)  I think many people in our area are familiar with the Grotto's, Mack's and Manco & Manco pizzas since we don't live that far from the shore.  It takes awhile for the word to get out what kinds of pizzas I am offering at market since I am only open one day a week, but it seems like slowly more people are getting to know about what I offer.  Some new customers ask if I have a regular pizza business somewhere that they could come to, but that is out of the question for me.  I do have customers that come from an hour away for my pizzas though.  I have been working on this style of pizzas for about 3 years and I still don't have it right.  The cheese part and the sauce are okay, but the crust and dough still gives me problems. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: pythonic on June 13, 2013, 11:04:15 PM
Excellent looking Pizza Norma.  What was the bake time and temp?  You said you didn't get the crust down yet.  What is it lacking?  Also what brand cheese and sauce did u use?

Nate
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 14, 2013, 03:42:23 AM
Norma,

Those pizzas look great.  I'm getting hungry.   :drool: Did you notice any difference in the olive oil vs. the vegetable oil?

--Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 08:31:26 AM
Excellent looking Pizza Norma.  What was the bake time and temp?  You said you didn't get the crust down yet.  What is it lacking?  Also what brand cheese and sauce did u use?

Nate

Nate,

Thank you!  My oven temperature is lower now, but I don't have my IR gun at market to be able to measure really what it is.  I have the thermostat set at about 525 degrees F, or a little lower and the bake time was about 5 minutes.  If you want me to, I can try to remember to take my IR gun along to market this week to really see what the deck temperature is and also time some bakes.  The reasoning as to why I dialed back the temperature in my deck oven is because Joey's Pizza uses a lower bake temperature and that is the kind of crust I am trying to make.

Some of the reasons I don't think I have the crust right is because the dough balls are kind of hard to open, there is too much rim rise, or oven spring for the kind of crust I am trying to make and I would like the bottom crust to brown evenly.  I know I probably won't achieve all that I would like to, because I don't have the right kind of oven, and really don't know the dough formulation, etc.

As for the cheese it is the same cheese I posted about at Reply 1720 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg255328.html#msg255328 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg255328.html#msg255328)  I would really post the brand, but know most members can't purchase that cheese that comes in the almost 45 lb. blocks.  I also use the same cheese on my Detroit style pizzas.  The cheese is a foodservice mild cheddar.  I have looked for that kind of mild cheddar for about 3 years before I finally found what I wanted.  I can say that the mild cheddar is produced in Wisconsin and I would give the brand in a PM to regular members that do post about their pizzas here on the forum.  As for the sauce I use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce doctored up.  I can post what I add to that sauce to doctor it up.  I have posted that before here on the forum. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 08:33:44 AM
Norma,

Those pizzas look great.  I'm getting hungry.   :drool: Did you notice any difference in the olive oil vs. the vegetable oil?

--Tim

Tim,

Thanks!  I didn't notice any difference in how the doughs opened or how the crust browned with either oil.  I had wanted to taste both crusts made with both oils, but became too busy to try both.  I tried the one made with olive oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 07:40:09 PM
My friend Trenton Bill called me today to tell me that he changed his recipe for his dough for his attempts on a Joey's Pizza crust.  He told me he achieved a crust like Joey's Pizza in his home oven baked at 500 degrees F on quarry tiles.  Bill told me the recipe he used for 3 doughs balls for 12” pizzas, but I can't convert the weights he gave me into baker's percentages to be able to try a dough ball for next Tuesday for a 17” pizza.  Bill told me he used All Trumps flour.  These are the weights Bill gave me.

All Trumps flour  16.2 ounces
IDY  3.6 grams
Regular Table Salt  4.8 grams
Sugar 4.9 grams
Olive Oil 4.4 grams

What I found interesting is that Bill used his one dough ball in 3 hrs. to make a pizza and said the dough stretched out nicely and the crust tasted like a multiple day cold ferment.  I told Bill I didn't understand how that would be possible.   :-\

This is the mixing method Trenton Bill gave me for his recipe in a Kitchen Aid mixer.  Water in mixer, add sugar and yeast, then add half of the flour and mix for about 30 seconds.  Next let the dough sit for 20 minutes, then put the salt on top of the flour and mix 5 more minutes. 

Trenton Bill didn't steer me wrong on the Detroit style pizzas I accidentally made from his other recipe, but I sure don't know about this recipe for a crust like Joey's Pizza.

I also got a nice present from Joe Kelley of General Mills today.  Joe sent me a 50 lb. bag of All Trumps flour to try out. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2013, 07:57:07 PM
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 08:03:25 PM
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter

Peter,

I did and Trenton Bill didn't give it to me, but he just called again and said that he added 1 tablespoon of flour added to the 16.2 ounces of flour in the first mix, because the dough looked too sticky.  He told me he wanted to be accurate in what he told me, so that is why he called me again.  He also told me he mixed on speed 2 both times.  I will call Bill again and get this straightened out about the water amount. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 08:10:39 PM
Norma,

Did you forget the water?

Peter

Peter,

Trenton Bill just told me he used exactly 11 ounces of water for the 3 dough balls for the 12" pizzas.  Sorry for the confusion.  :-[   Bill was so excited when he talked to me about the crust that he achieved that neither of us thought about the water amount.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2013, 08:57:38 PM
Norma,

This is what Trenton Bill's dough formulation looks like, for three dough balls and for a single dough ball, including the extra tablespoon of All Trumps flour:

Dough for Three Pizzas
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
466.67 g  |  16.46 oz | 1.03 lbs
311.85 g  |  11 oz | 0.69 lbs
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.4 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
796.22 g | 28.09 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for 3 dough balls for 12" pizzas; thickness factor = (28.09/3)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Dough for One Pizza
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
155.56 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.2 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.6 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
265.41 g | 9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for one dough ball for a 12" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 14, 2013, 10:06:53 PM
Norma,

This is what Trenton Bill's dough formulation looks like, for three dough balls and for a single dough ball, including the extra tablespoon of All Trumps flour:

Dough for Three Pizzas
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
466.67 g  |  16.46 oz | 1.03 lbs
311.85 g  |  11 oz | 0.69 lbs
3.6 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
4.4 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
796.22 g | 28.09 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for 3 dough balls for 12" pizzas; thickness factor = (28.09/3)/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Dough for One Pizza
All Trumps High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (66.8246%):
IDY (0.77142%):
Salt (1.02857%):
Olive Oil (0.94285%):
Sugar (1.05%):
Total (170.61744%):
155.56 g  |  5.49 oz | 0.34 lbs
103.95 g  |  3.67 oz | 0.23 lbs
1.2 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.6 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.29 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
1.47 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
1.63 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
265.41 g | 9.36 oz | 0.59 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for one dough ball for a 12" pizza; thickness factor = 0.08279; no bowl residue compensation

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for doing the calculations for Trenton Bills dough.  I am going to give him the link to what you posted.  I think his recipe is a pretty high hydration dough and really don't think enough salt was added.  The TF looks okay.  Do you really think the dough would be ready in 3 hours to open a dough ball and make a pizza, unless the dough ball was left at room temperature to ferment.  I really don't know what Trenton's Bill's final dough temperature was either, but will ask him if he takes a final dough temperature.  I didn't think to ask Trenton Bill if he left the dough ball out at room temperature or not. 

I told Trenton Bill he should use the dough calculations tools so I would have a better idea of what he is trying, but I guess he is old-fashioned and just tries doughs.  Trenton Bill did say he used this dough before, but really don't know if he got the same results as he did this time.  I am also not sure if he used more yeast this time or not.  Bill usually uses a 2-3 day cold ferment for his doughs. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2013, 11:29:36 AM
Peter,

Just to let you know that I did talk to Trenton Bill this morning two times and he said he did let his dough ball sit out at room temperature (about 70-71 degrees F) to room temperature ferment.  I asked him to look at the 2 other dough balls he is now cold fermenting to tell me what they looked like.  He said they are rising nicely.  I told Bill I don't think his recipe will work out for me because of using that amount of yeast and also the higher hydration.  Bill asked me why I couldn't use that amount of yeast and the higher hydration at market.  I told Bill that higher hydration doughs are harder for me to work with at market, because sometimes the dressed pizzas want to stick to the peel.  I won't get into what all we discussed, but Bill and I agree to disagree on many things related to doughs, including the salt amount he used and what to use on a pizza peel as flour.  Bill told me that is what he likes about me that I speak my mind and I am different than most women he has met.  :-D  I asked Bill how I am going to use that amount of yeast in a dough formulation when I am now using a lot less yeast for a one day cold ferment.  Bill did tell me he looked at your link to where you posted his dough formulation you converted to baker's percents and said he saw what I posted in the next reply. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on June 15, 2013, 01:12:11 PM
Norma,

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 15, 2013, 01:27:21 PM
I'd like to whip one of these up for tonight's pizza. Would you all like me to time it for Trenton Bill's 3 hr. window?

Bob
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2013, 01:39:37 PM
Norma,

I was waiting to see how Trenton Bill would respond before commenting further. Based on what Trenton Bill said, I can see how a dough with a hydration of almost 67% (plus almost 1% oil) and about 0.77% IDY would ferment quite nicely over a roughly 3 hour period at room temperature and be amenable to forming into a skin with ease. The low salt level will also allow the dough to remain fairly soft and ferment faster.

I suspect that using 1% salt might yield a finished crust that is on the bland side, especially since most people have become acclimated to high levels of salt in the food that they eat.

The easiest and quickest and best way to prove out the dough formulation is to make a single dough ball and see what you get. Since you know the thickness factor, you might use that in the expanded dough calculating tool to make a large size pizza. A 12" skin will almost always be easier to work with than say, a 16" pizza or higher.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that the hydration (plus the amount of oil) and the higher amount of IDY would ferment quite nicely over roughly a 3 hour period at room temperature and would also be able to form the skin with ease.  Trenton Bill will be glad to hear that.   

I will make a test dough using Trenton Bills recipe for this coming Tuesday since you did the calculations.  Mine with be a 17” pizza though. 

Bill and I are always battering back and forth in anything about pizzas, but one thing we both agree on is that we do like pizzas.  Time will tell what I think of Trenton Bill's recipe.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2013, 01:41:11 PM
I'd like to whip one of these up for tonight's pizza. Would you all like me to time it for Trenton Bill's 3 hr. window?

Bob


Bob,

Yep, whip it up and let us know about the time and also what you think of the taste of the crust.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dhorst on June 15, 2013, 08:08:43 PM
Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with?  I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does.  Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra.  I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2013, 09:58:52 PM
Norma, what do you prefer to dust your peel with?  I actually like wondra--there's something about it that allows the pizza to release nicely and it doesn't stick to the bottom like regular flour does.  Sometimes I use a fine semolina if I'm out of the wondra.  I used to use a bit of sea salt with the flour, but the OH is watching his sodium intake, so...

Diana,

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it.  I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour.  I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel.  Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

The Mellow Mushroom flour release agent is cornmeal as I posted at Reply 1251 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788) and Peter also posted on that thread is you use the search feature on that thread.  A few times I tried other flours.  Sometimes at Steve's home for his WFO we just use regular flours as a release agent. 

Soon I will be trying the Dustinator like Papa John's uses that Peter posted about at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046) 

You might want to look what Tom Lehmann recommends at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800) and from Tom's other posts on peel flour. 

If you search what other members use as peel flour you might see that different members have different preferences for what peel flours work for them. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 15, 2013, 10:41:41 PM
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 15, 2013, 11:55:03 PM
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough.  I am glad you liked the pizza.  Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust?  I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted.  :P I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat.  What kind of flour did you use?  Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned.  I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim.  Your mozzarella looks good too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 16, 2013, 10:03:16 AM
Bob,

Thanks for posting about your pizza using Trenton Bill's 3 hr. dough.  I am glad you liked the pizza.  Do you think more salt should have been added to give more flavor to the crust?  I like to hear the part about the thin crisp crunch and the tender chew that lasted.  :P I am also glad you had no problems stretching the dough out flat.  What kind of flour did you use?  Your pizza looks very tasty to me and I like how your rim crust browned.  I really don't think Trenton Bill and I are going for a pronounced rim, but you could up the TF if you want a more pronounced rim.  Your mozzarella looks good too.

Norma
Norma,
To be honest; the salt is the one thing I changed from the formula Peter gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164.)

Instead of .29 t salt I used .50...half a teaspoon. I think it could probably still take a bit more if one wanted before becoming tough as this was a pretty tender dough.

I used All Trumps flour.   Yes, I went pretty heavy with the cheese. It was equal parts Trader Joe's whole milk, Stella LM/PS, and Stella smoked provo.

Bob
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2013, 10:12:52 AM
Norma,
To be honest; the salt is the one thing I changed from the formula Peter gave at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164.)

Instead of .29 t salt I used .50...half a teaspoon. I think it could probably still take a bit more if one wanted before becoming tough as this was a pretty tender dough.

I used All Trumps flour.   Yes, I went pretty heavy with the cheese. It was equal parts Trader Joe's whole milk, Stella LM/PS, and Stella smoked provo.

Bob

Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 16, 2013, 10:29:48 AM
Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma
Norma,
I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.
This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

Bob
 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dhorst on June 16, 2013, 10:34:51 AM
Diana,

I never tried Wondra flour as a peel flour, but am glad you like it.  I always use rice flour at market, unless a certain kind of pizza call for another flour.  I really like rice flour as a release agent for a wooden peel.  Sometimes at home I use regular flours, unless the formulation is a really high hydration dough.

The Mellow Mushroom flour release agent is cornmeal as I posted at Reply 1251 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg169788.html#msg169788) and Peter also posted on that thread is you use the search feature on that thread.  A few times I tried other flours.  Sometimes at Steve's home for his WFO we just use regular flours as a release agent. 

Soon I will be trying the Dustinator like Papa John's uses that Peter posted about at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg260046.html#msg260046) 

You might want to look what Tom Lehmann recommends at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23324.msg236800.html#msg236800) and from Tom's other posts on peel flour. 

If you search what other members use as peel flour you might see that different members have different preferences for what peel flours work for them. 

Norma

Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel.  I also like rice flour for dusting bread.  Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour?  It has a very nice moist crumb.  Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2013, 10:49:55 AM
Norma,
I forgot about Trenton Bill giving his mixing method. I mixed this the same way I always do my Chi-thin doughs...dump everything in a bowl, mix with a spoon, dump on counter and hand need. Although this dough was much more wet/sticky than Chi-thins and I don't have my technique down very good for wet doughs so this dough really only got mixed till it came together and just a couple 3 or 4 kneads on the counter. It was very cottage cheese like and this dough did not hardly rise at all after 4hrs. in a 100 degree oven.

As you can see in the pics I got great bottom browning, even some slight char. By tender I am referring to the inside of the crust...outside had thin crispness....rim was still crisp even hours later.
This was a good tasting pizza and I will soon be making again...would like to try it just a bit thicker.

Bob

Bob,

That's okay that you didn't use Bill's mixing methods.  I just wanted to clarify what methods you used.  I am glad you liked it enough to try it again.  Nothing wrong with upping the TF to make it a little thicker.  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2013, 10:57:27 AM
Norma, I use rice flour from time to time, and I prefer it to semolina or regular flour for dusting the peel.  I also like rice flour for dusting bread.  Have you ever made bread with some of the flour being rice flour?  It has a very nice moist crumb.  Here are some pics of some bread that I made using 25% rice flour and 75%Occident.

Diana,

It is interesting to hear you also do use rice flour from time to time as a dusting flour.  I never tried rice flour for dusting bread.  I never made any bread with some of the flour being rice flour either.  Interesting that rice flour and Occident flour give a very nice moist crumb.  Your creations look delicious!   8)

I would try to make more breads, but I play around with pizzas way too much and then I don't get to play around with breads as much as I would like to.  I am the only one that would eat the bread.  My daughter has been on a diet and bread and pizza are two things she can't eat.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 16, 2013, 11:43:45 AM
Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: dhorst on June 16, 2013, 12:09:05 PM
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."

Thanks for the Wondra tip D...worked great. That stuff is kinda pricey so I was skeptical at first but the shaker can it comes in made it easy to just barely and evenly dust the peel with only a tiny bit of product. I think it works real good for pizza...could not sense any sort of residule on the pie what so ever. Great!

Bob
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2013, 12:54:57 PM

Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and


Diana,

My daughter takes after her father's side of the family I guess in genes for gaining weight.  Although she doesn't eat anything differently than I do and actually eats more fruits and and other healthier foods than I do and even exercises a lot more than I do, she still has had problems most of her life (except when she was young) keeping weight off.  She doesn't seem to mind not eating bread or pizzas, but she does have lots of other food options to choose from. 

The reason I stay away from bread and really don't eat much at home or away from home is because I feel I already eat enough pizzas. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 16, 2013, 01:36:00 PM
Norma, if I had to give up bread and pizza...boy, I feel bad for your daughter!  I found the rice flour breads to be quite wonderful, and I'm thinking about making smallish baguettes with this same dough to make bahn mi--a Vietamese type "sub."
Wondra works wonders!  It was pure accident that I discovered that it worked so well.  Dusting the peel is about the only thing I use it for.  Gravy or a sauce once or twice a year, maybe, but I usually use a roux for thickening.  Glad you had good results!
Diana,
Have you ever had a Chicago Italian Beef sandwich. I'm wondering if you are familiar with the type of roll they use. Most restaurants use rolls from either Turano or Gonella bakeries. They are unique in that the outside surface has an almost waxy surface...this allows the sandwich to hold together even if a person orders a sandwich "dipped"(submerged in the juice). http://www.turano.com/ (http://www.turano.com/)
Sure wish I had a recipe to make these.  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: pythonic on June 16, 2013, 07:48:00 PM
I just finished devouring most of the 12in. Trenton Bill's 3hr. dough. I was very pleasantly surprised with this pizza...thank you for posting about this Norma!  :chef:
Of course; it doesn't bowl you over with flavor, but it was not bad at all...the crust went really well with the cheese and tomatoes. Easily better than my local slice joint...this had a nice thin crisp crunch and tender chew that lasted; unlike the slice place's that loses it's snap and turns leather like within just maybe 10-15 min. out of the oven.
I had no problems stretching this out flat and spread the sauce almost to the edge. I believe the dough final weight would need to be increased a little if one wants to stretch and have a larger more pronounced cornicione. Maybe not; I'm still learning the technique.
It made a great easy peazzy pizza though and makes for a nice emergency dough in my opinion.   Here's the pics....oh, baked straight on a 550 stone.

Bob,

I love how you always go heavy cheese on your pies.  Very nice pie there sir. 

Nate
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: pythonic on June 16, 2013, 07:49:55 PM
Bob,

Thanks for telling me you did use more salt in Trenton Bill's recipe Peter figured out.  I find it interesting that you think that when using Trenton Bill's recipe with All Trumps that you got a pretty tender crust.  I appreciate you also posted about the cheese blend you used.  Did you use Trenton Bills mixing method, or one of your own?

Norma

What is Bills mixing procedure?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2013, 09:24:23 PM
What is Bills mixing procedure?

Nate,

I posted Trenton Bill's mixing procedure at Reply 54 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260153.html#msg260153 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260153.html#msg260153)  Peter then did the calculations and set-forth the formulations at Reply 58 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260164.html#msg260164)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 07:44:34 AM
My ex-husband came to my pizza stand for the better part of yesterday.  He was in our area to visit close relatives for a few days.  He could not believe how busy a small pizza stand is on a rainy day.  He apologized different times for all of the trouble he gave me when we were married and said if he could go back years he sure would have been different.  He said he wished now that we could have stayed married.  We would have soon been married for 50 years if he would not have been such a character.  How time changes people.  :-D  My ex-husband said it was okay if I posted his picture on the forum.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 08:24:44 AM
I tried Trenton Bills recipe that he gave me and Peter converted to baker's percentages.  I did change the yeast amount, the salt amount, the pizza size and also the TF.  I mixed Trenton Bill's dough later Monday night.  I also used the All Trumps flour like Bill did.

The pizza was good and I thought it was interesting how different the pizza was when using Trenton Bills recipe.  The bottom crust browned differently in my opinion than the pies I have been making.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  Steve and I each had two slices of this pizza.  Another thing I found interesting is on the reheat of the second slice is how crisp the bottom of the slice became.  There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 08:28:07 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 08:30:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2013, 08:41:50 AM
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924), I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on June 19, 2013, 09:09:16 AM
There was more chew to the rim in this pizza to, then the recipes I have been trying.  I really don't know what that is from.

Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 09:24:19 AM
Norma,

In Reply 83 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg260924.html#msg260924), I caught an error in the amount of oil. Did you use the indicated amount of oil or did you correct the error?

Peter

Peter,

That was my error of adding the 0 right behind the decimal point, and no I did not correct it.  I thought when I mixed that dough that sure was a small amount of olive oil, but I was tired when I mixed that dough so didn't give it another thought on that I might have made an error in putting that number into the expanded dough calculation tool.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 09:37:59 AM
Chewy inhibitor

Oil

Chewy boosters

Water
Flour protein
Gluten development (mix time/rests/reballs)
Insufficient rise

Time is not that clear cut.  Time promotes gluten development (chewiness) but it also promotes tenderizing enzyme activity.

Looking at your recipe, I think the chewiness is primarily coming from the All Trumps (high propensity for chewiness) and the high-ish water.  Some of my toughest crusts have been 67% hydration/All Trumps.  The 20 minute rest is also a player, as it ramps up the gluten development.  He doesn't seem to reference mixer speed, but, if it's fast enough, that final 5 minutes of mixing could be taking the gluten too far. Lastly, I don't know how much oil Trenton styles are supposed to contain, but, for offsetting the propensity for toughness one gets with All Trumps, 1% oil is insufficient.

Now, I know you've worked with and are happy with other 14% flours, such as Kyrol and KASL, in a variety of formulas, so it's unlikely you're as as sensitive to the toughness propensity of 14% protein flours as I am. It's also quite possible that you're chewy rim observation might not be a criticism, but, if it is something you'd like to avoid, you'll never have to worry about it with occident (or an occident/AT blend).

Scott,

Thanks for posting what contributes to chew in a pizza rim and also for posting how your toughest crusts have been from using 67% hydration and using the All Trumps flour.  I can understand that the 20 minute rest period of the batter like dough does ramp up the gluten development.  I also could not mix with my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the amount of flour and water wasn't enough.  I think my flat beater also contributed to the chew.  I did use the flat beater for all of the mix. 

I really don't know how much oil Trenton Pies are suppose to have either.  That is one thing I have continued to play with.  I mixed another two different batches of dough on Monday and was almost satisfied how they turned out yesterday when they were baked into pizzas.  I don't like a lot of chew either in a pizza rim.  So far using the All Trumps, without including Trenton Bill's recipe, the crust isn't chewy.

I know I still have experimenting to do with what makes the best Trenton Pie crust and do know I might never really find it.  I am still trying to make a crust like Joey's Pizza. 

The chewy rim was the main criticism of this pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on June 19, 2013, 09:45:55 AM
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 10:01:57 AM
Norma, so far, have any of your All Trumps experiments been higher than 67% hydration?

Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on June 19, 2013, 10:10:38 AM
Scott,

No, none of my formulations are that high in hydration. 

Norma

Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 10:42:56 AM
Well, then, I think that's your primary culprit.

For what it's worth, I think one of the reasons why I'm so anti-14% flour is that I'm a big fan of cold pizza.  A pizza that is borderline too chewy when warm is really noticeably tough when chilled. This pushes my chewy barometer a bit lower than others, I think.

Scott,

Thanks for telling me you think the higher hydration was the primary culprit for the chewier crust.  I am not a big fan of cold pizza either.  I only had that one slice of pizza at Jim Lahey's Sullivan Street Bakery cold that I really liked.  Don't you also think the way I mixed with the flat beater also had something to do with the chewiness?   I have to ask Trenton Bill how chewy his pizza was.  Joey's Pizza isn't chewy at all and for all I know Joey's does used All Trumps.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on June 19, 2013, 01:23:04 PM
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 09:05:14 PM
Norma, just to be clear, I capital L Love cold pizza.  ;D

I haven't worked much with a flat beater, so I can't say how much it contributed to the chewiness, but, out of everything, my money is on 67% hydration and AT.

Lol Scott I sure didn't know you love cold pizza.   ;D  I would have to do another experiment with the right amount of olive oil added to Trenton Bill's recipe and would also have to mix less to see if I got the same chewiness again.  Different pizza doughs do make me think sometimes and sometimes I can't be sure of what the results would be.  That is why I keep experimenting.  :-D

Thanks for posting that you think the 67% and AT was the problem of the chewiness.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 19, 2013, 09:32:27 PM
I am not sure, but think my crusts getting closer to a Joey's pizza.  I dropped the amount of yeast, sugar and oil in two batches, but both batches of dough were not exactly the same in the amounts of ingredients used.  Both batches worked out good though.  My dough balls were not overfermented until Tuesday morning and the dough balls opened okay.  I didn't have time to take a lot of photos, but these are two of the pizzas and the dough balls in the morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: jeffereynelson on June 23, 2013, 07:45:56 PM
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 23, 2013, 07:58:18 PM
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: jeffereynelson on June 23, 2013, 10:07:03 PM
Man that dude looks killer Jeff...Blackstoned?  8)

Thanks, and yep of course. I have no plans to cook pizza in my oven again.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 23, 2013, 10:32:31 PM
Norma, thanks to you and watching a little marathon of pizza cuz I wanted to give tomato pies a try. Since the most standout feature of these pies is just different distribution of sauce and cheese, I didn't see it as being too difficult to try. I liked how the flavors are stronger and milder as you eat the pizza. It makes it interesting. My pizza baked a little quicker than I was wanting it to. I was wanting more even golden colors from a 4:30 bake but it needed to come out quickly at 3:30.

Jeff,

I agree that your pizza looks delicious all around.  :chef: With your shorter bake time in the Blackstone oven I should would have liked to have been able to try a slice.   

I also like how applying the sauce and cheese differently than normal gives different tastes in each bite.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2013, 10:16:12 PM
This post is to basically explain a few things.  Yesterday when I made the batches of dough balls for the boardwalk style pizza my pizza prep fridge didn't want to go down to the right temperature.  It was about 56 degrees in the pizza prep fridge, and although I had used less yeast in the formulation, where I was cutting, scaling and balling the dough balls it was 90 degrees F ambient room temperature.  The final dough temperatures were about right though.  After fiddling around with the pizza prep fridge for about 2 ½ hrs. (while the dough balls were in the pizza prep fridge) I almost gave up on getting the temperature down and decided to put them all into the deli case.  I then fiddled around with the pizza prep fridge again while I was making the dough for the Detroit style pizza.  The temperature did go down then in the pizza prep fridge, but not as low as it should be.  I didn't want to chance putting the boardwalk style dough balls back into the pizza prep fridge and it was getting to late to do much of anything else.  I did put most of the pans with the Detroit style dough balls into the pizza prep fridge and hoped for the best in that it would continue to go down in temperature after 5:00 PM when I had to leave market.  I also had a repairman at market yesterday fixing a leaking faucet, so I had a lot of dishes to do at once when the faucet was fixed. 

When I got to market this morning the temperature was down to 37 degrees F in the pizza prep fridge and the Detroit style dough balls in the pan were okay.  The dough balls in the deli case were really fermented.  I think that happened because they weren't put into a fridge that was cold enough to begin with.  Even though the dough balls were highly fermented they could be opened into normal skins today if they didn't warm-up very much.  The dough balls first had to be placed in flour and then some of the fermentation bubbles had to be pushed out and the dough balls had to be shaped into somewhat of a normal shape of a dough balls.  At least the dough balls when opening into skins did open almost normally.  All of these dough balls were really pressed on before opening into skin. 

The bottom crusts of the pizzas browned well, the bottom crusts were crispy and the rims were tender without any chewiness.  I am beginning to really like the All Trumps flour.  This is the kind of crust I have been trying to create, but surely not the problems I had with the dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2013, 10:20:24 PM
I forgot to mention in my last post that is was hot at market today too.  That is one reason the dough balls were opened colder too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 26, 2013, 01:59:28 AM
Those pizzas look MIGHTY good Norma!  Nice and thin but with a beautiful rim.   It's great that you were able to save them, despite the prep fridge problems.  I've been trying various formulations of dough lately and recently got some KASL flour.  I was afraid that the high protein content (about 14%) might make the crust too chewy, so I've been mixing it with bread flour or AP.  How do you keep your dough from getting too chewy?

-Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2013, 07:18:08 AM
Those pizzas look MIGHTY good Norma!  Nice and thin but with a beautiful rim.   It's great that you were able to save them, despite the prep fridge problems.  I've been trying various formulations of dough lately and recently got some KASL flour.  I was afraid that the high protein content (about 14%) might make the crust too chewy, so I've been mixing it with bread flour or AP.  How do you keep your dough from getting too chewy?

-Tim

Tim,

I think from all the problems I had with dough balls before that is why I have learned what to do with overblown, or almost overfermented dough balls.  I am still learning about that, but it is easier to deal with that now.  I did have 3 leftover dough balls yesterday because I wanted to get home to visit my brother a little that is in from Colorado visiting.  He leaves to go back today.  I will see next week after the dough balls are frozen and thawed what happens to them. 

When I used KASL on the preferment Lehmann dough thread and with other pizzas I didn't have any problems with the rims, or bottom crusts being too chewy.  The mix time in my home Kitchen Aid mixer or my Hobart at market just has to be shorter.  Right now with the All Trumps I mix the water, flour, yeast, salt and sugar first until all of the water is absorbed.  I just started waiting a few minutes before mixing again and drizzling the olive oil in.  The second mix time was only 4 minutes, or until the dough looked like it was at the cottage cheese texture.  The gluten does relax after it is out of the mixer, while the dough is being cut and scaled, and while it cold ferments.   I sure don't know how Mack's or Joey's mixes their doughs with the higher gluten flours, but from what I understand is the bigger Hobart's mix differently than my 20 qt. Hobart. 

You can mix KASL with bread flour or AP.  How do you mix your dough? 

You know I have been trying to make a Mack's pizza for awhile, and then when I went to Joey's Pizza I liked Joey's Pizza a lot better than Mack's pizza has been the last few times.  The kind of pizza I am trying to replicate and the photos are at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg254876.html#msg254876 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg254876.html#msg254876)  Joey's pizza wasn't chewy either and from the bag of flour I saw there I assume they use All Trumps.  I am trying to get bottom crust browning like Joey's pizza too.  I did just down my dough ball weights this past week, but since I reheat slices it works better for me to have the crusts a little bit thicker for the reheat.  If I don't have them a little bit thicker in the crust, then the slices want to get floppy in the heated holding cabinet.  My rim crusts are bigger than Joey's, but I do that because I would have to add more than 8 ounces of cheese to have my rims smaller.  Since the cheese is the most expensive thing that is why I have larger rims. 

My one friend brought Steve and me a slice of pizza from a local pizzeria I never tried before.  Although Steve and I over reheated those slices that pizza sure had a chewy crust and the crusts were also bland tasting.  Below are two photos of the slices my friend brought us.  Steve and I both gave the thumbs down to those slices.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Camaro10 on June 26, 2013, 08:53:26 AM
I watched a rerun of tho episode of pizza cuz a few days ago. One of the cousins began to make statement about why the pizza man added the cheese first then the pizza man cut him off and said it was a secret. Does anybody know if there is a specific reason that the cheese goes directly onto the dough?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2013, 11:31:23 AM
I watched a rerun of tho episode of pizza cuz a few days ago. One of the cousins began to make statement about why the pizza man added the cheese first then the pizza man cut him off and said it was a secret. Does anybody know if there is a specific reason that the cheese goes directly onto the dough?


Gin,

Maybe these links will help more in knowing why the cheese is added first in tomato pies.
http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html (http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html)

http://www.fromaway.com/cooking/trenton-tomato-pie (http://www.fromaway.com/cooking/trenton-tomato-pie)

http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491 (http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491)

The reason I think a tomato pie is so unique is because you get a different taste in each bite and the cheese doesn't slide off like some cheeses do when taking a bite.  I also found out when experimenting with tomato pies that my oven deck doesn't get as dirty from reheating slices and the mozzarella having a tendency to stick on the deck when the cheese melts in the slice reheats.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on June 27, 2013, 03:22:27 AM
Norma,

I think it's really smart that you make your rims a little on the large size in the commercial setting.  I'm sure they taste delicious, so no one minds, plus it helps to keep your costs down. 

As to how I mix my dough, I usually like to vary from under-mixing it to over-mixing it!   :-D

In all seriousness, the last time I tried to stop mixing when the dough looked like "cottage cheese" I ended up with a dough that was very hard to open.  Maybe I should have rested it longer before balling and bagging it.  With only 2 dough balls it takes almost no time for me to weigh 'em and ball 'em.  With balling it right away I had a dough that wouldn't open for me at all...it wouldn't maintain a round shape so I ended up throwing it in a rectangular pan and baking it in that.  A pretty bad result.

The next time I went almost to window-pane stage to be sure not to under-mix it, and it was better, but a little too chewy.  I guess I need to split the difference....There sure are a lot of possible variables.  Are you still dissolving your salt in your water, then putting all the dry ingredients into the flour, mixing them, then adding oil a little later?  That's what I normally do.  I've also tried putting the salt right in with the yeast,  flour, and other dry ingredients and despite the warnings against that method, I really couldn't appreciate any significant difference.

As to the browning on the bottom of the Joey's pie, that's got to be from sugar, right?  Have you tried upping the sugar content to try and achieve some of that color?

--Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2013, 08:04:06 AM
Norma,

I think it's really smart that you make your rims a little on the large size in the commercial setting.  I'm sure they taste delicious, so no one minds, plus it helps to keep your costs down. 

As to how I mix my dough, I usually like to vary from under-mixing it to over-mixing it!   :-D

In all seriousness, the last time I tried to stop mixing when the dough looked like "cottage cheese" I ended up with a dough that was very hard to open.  Maybe I should have rested it longer before balling and bagging it.  With only 2 dough balls it takes almost no time for me to weigh 'em and ball 'em.  With balling it right away I had a dough that wouldn't open for me at all...it wouldn't maintain a round shape so I ended up throwing it in a rectangular pan and baking it in that.  A pretty bad result.

The next time I went almost to window-pane stage to be sure not to under-mix it, and it was better, but a little too chewy.  I guess I need to split the difference....There sure are a lot of possible variables.  Are you still dissolving your salt in your water, then putting all the dry ingredients into the flour, mixing them, then adding oil a little later?  That's what I normally do.  I've also tried putting the salt right in with the yeast,  flour, and other dry ingredients and despite the warnings against that method, I really couldn't appreciate any significant difference.

As to the browning on the bottom of the Joey's pie, that's got to be from sugar, right?  Have you tried upping the sugar content to try and achieve some of that color?

--Tim

Tim,

I think in our area customers actually like bigger rims.  Also since I started making pizzas at market I always have had larger rims, so customers really don't notice that I am using a different dough formulation now, and yes less cheese does help keep the costs down.

I have tried all kinds of experiments with doughs.  I really don't know what the best way to mix this type of dough is even from all my experimenting. 

I had to laugh when you posted that your methods can vary from under-mixing to over-mixing.  I have been down that same road too.  :-D What hydration were you using when you had a hard time opening the dough ball?  Maybe a rest period might have helped that dough ball open easier.  Do you take your final dough temperatures, or use the “poppy seed trick”?  My scaled dough has more time to relax because I mix in larger batches at market.  Most members do not recommend mixing to the window-pane stage for this kind of dough.  I know there are a lot of variables and even I don't understand them all and have been making pizza dough for quite a while.  To give you an example I mix the heck out of the Detroit style dough 2 times with a flat beater with a longer rest period in-between.  I would think that would make the crust really tough, but that crust is really light.  That is a much higher hydration dough though.

To answer your question about how I am mixing now for this style of dough, first I put the water in the mixer bowl, then the flour and on top of flour I put the sugar, Kosher salt and IDY in three separate places.  I mix until the water is incorporated (about 1 1/2-2 minutes.  I then drizzle the oil in on the second mix while the mixer is mixing.  I am now using a little higher hydration and less sugar and oil than I have been.  I don't have the exact formulation to give you because I have been fooling around with it at market, but hopefully soon I can post the formulation.  I am now including a rest period right about the first mix of about 3 minutes so the flour hydrates more before the final mix.  If you want to see some photos of how I add the flour and other ingredients those photos are at Reply 30  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg257910.html#msg257910 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg257910.html#msg257910) 

I still am not sure about how Joey's gets their pies so evenly brown on the bottom.  I really don't know if it is the sugar amount or their Rotoflex oven that does that.  It might even be something else.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2013, 09:47:18 PM
I think I almost have the tomato pie crusts tuned in right.  The dough balls stretch out fine and the rims and bottom crusts bake okay.  The rim is somewhat crispy, but is tender to eat and the bottom crust is also crispy.  I didn't take other photos of the tomato pies yesterday because it was too busy at market due to the fourth of July week.  I am not adding much IDY at all to a batch of dough and it seems to ferment just about right until the next day and also the dough balls last well throughout the day.  I am using part cold water out of my deli case to mix the dough batches now since the weather is hotter.   

I don't know what happened to the reballed dough balls from last week, but they were frozen not too long after the reball.  I ran out of the boardwalk style dough balls around 6:30 PM and tried to use the reballed dough balls, but they were springy and wouldn't open at all.  Steve also tried to open them, but he said they were a lost cause too, so they were thrown away.  I did defrost the dough balls for over a day so I thought the gluten should have relaxed by then from the reball, but that was not the case.  I didn't take any photos of that mess either.  The dough balls looked fine, but just would not open.

I also did an experiment on a dough ball that I found on Monday that was left in the back of the bottom top back of my pizza prep fridge from the week before.  It sure smelled of alcohol and I thought it probably wouldn't be any good, but I did add flour and some IDY on Monday and tried to knead and ball it to see if it could be salvaged.  The first photos are of that dough ball on Monday.  It was very clammy.  Of course on Tuesday it was no good.  I found it interesting how that dough ball wanted to break apart into smaller pieces in the middle even after kneading and adding flour.

When market was over and I was cleaning up there was a beautiful rainbow outside.  The lights already turned on outside, but the rainbow could be seen for a long while.  I stayed outside until the rainbow disappeared.  There is something about rainbows that I really like.

I had a lot of comments yesterday from customers that said my boardwalk pizzas taste like either Mack's pizza or Grotto's pizza.  That made me feel good, because I have wanted to make this kind of pizza for a long while.  The only comment that somewhat surprised me was one lady told me my pizzas taste like Mack's pizzas, but the grease from the cheese melting in the bake isn't enough.  I had to chuckle at that comment.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2013, 09:50:17 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: tinroofrusted on July 03, 2013, 11:41:59 PM
Thanks for your post, Norma.   Gorgeous prose, pizza, and rainbow. A hat trick.

I was planning to make some pizzas last night with dough that had been fermenting for a couple of days. When I tried to open the skins, they just fell apart.  So I threw them in the oven anyway and made something like pita or naan. And it was pretty tasty! 

Have a great July 4th. Thanks for your help with the flour too. 

Regards,

TinRoof

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2013, 08:27:35 AM
Thanks for your post, Norma.   Gorgeous prose, pizza, and rainbow. A hat trick.

I was planning to make some pizzas last night with dough that had been fermenting for a couple of days. When I tried to open the skins, they just fell apart.  So I threw them in the oven anyway and made something like pita or naan. And it was pretty tasty! 

Have a great July 4th. Thanks for your help with the flour too. 

Regards,

TinRoof

TinRoof,

Thanks for telling me what happened with your dough that was fermenting for a couple of days.  At least you made something out of your dough and did like the taste.  Good save!   ;D

I can not figure out why the 3 reballed dough balls wouldn't open right.  :-\ They just kept springing back no matter what Steve and I tried.  I didn't excessively reball them and they looked normal to me.  I guess that is a mystery I never will figure out.

I hope you have a great July 4th too.  I hope Joe Kelley contacting GM reps in CA will help you find the new GM flour there.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2013, 08:47:39 AM
The man at market that has educational things for anyone to see each week in my area had Indian pipe this week at his market stand.  I never saw Indian pipe before and found it interesting that Indian pipe doesn't have chlorophll, the stuff that makes plants green.  The photos of the Indian pipe are not the best, but in person it did look like a real pipe.  He also had a small box turtle at market this week.  He raises small box turtles and then let them out into the wild when they are grown.  Last week he had a Eyed Click Beetle.  I didn't take a photo of the Eyed Click Bettle, but this a photo of one.  They do click.  I don't know where this interesting man finds all these things in our area, but he finds them all local.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 05, 2013, 08:45:45 AM
I am not sure if I posted this article in my opening post, http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html (http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html)  but if I already did I just wanted to take out the excerpt of this part of the article and how it says Anthony Mack and Vincent Mack grew up in Trenton, where they absorbed tomato pie culture:

“In Jersey, Trenton’s tentacles have reached other towns. Tony’s in Long Branch was started by the husband of one of Joe Papa’s sisters. Anthony Mack and Vincent Manco grew up in Trenton, where they absorbed tomato pie culture before starting their three Mack and Manco pizzerias in Ocean City (see story, page 44).
In 1950, asserts Nick Azzaro, Papa’s became one of the first pizzerias in New Jersey to deliver. The pies would be wrapped in newspaper, and Jimmy Giannini would make the rounds in his 1946 Dodge”.

Note:  I can not find see story page 44.

It also seems from the above article that Joe's Tomato Pies in Trenton opened in 1910.  This is another excerpt from the article that tells how Papa of Papa's Tomato Pies worked at Joe's Tomato Pies, before lanuching his own Pizzeria.
 
“Papa opened Papa’s Tomato Pies on South Clinton Avenue in 1912, at age 17. He had emigrated from Naples during the prior decade and settled in Trenton in the burgeoning Italian neighborhood of Chambersburg. Before launching his own restaurant, he worked at Joe’s Tomato Pies. Joe’s opened in 1910 and is regarded as the second pizzeria established in America after Lombardi’s, which opened on Spring Street in Manhattan in 1905”. 

Joe Sivestro says in the below article that his father, Joe Sr., was the reason shy “Joe's Tomato Pies” got it's name.  (last poster)

Joe Silvestro says:

December 15, 2010 at 3:00 pm
I love reading about all of the great tomato pie restaurants (past and present) in Trenton, and the Trenton area. My father, Joe Sr., was the reason why “Joe’s Tomato Pies” got it’s name. He was the oldest of 5 brothers and my grandmother named the restaurant – established in 1910 – after him. Joe’s was the originator of tomato pie in Trenton. There is still one surviving brother – Ceasar – (Lew) and he had a superb “pizza” restaurant of his own in Hamilton on Route 33 for many years. My Uncle Lew is 90 years old. I still frequent Papa’s with my high school buddies about once a month. I also like Gennaro’s (the Old Nick and Nonna’s) tomato pie in Hamilton. I was pleasantly surprised last evening to try another very, very good thin crust, old Chambersburg recipe, tomato pie. It was at a restaurant called La Villa in Morrisville, Pa. Keep the old traditions going, guys – you will never eat pizza again, once you have had an old style Trenton Tomato Pie. (Joe’s was in operation for 89 years – until 1999)
http://hiddentrenton.com/?p=15 (http://hiddentrenton.com/?p=15)
 
This is a bloggers post about Joe's Tomato Pies in Trenton that is now closed.
http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/2010/03/joes-tomato-pies-south-clinton-avenue.html (http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/2010/03/joes-tomato-pies-south-clinton-avenue.html) 
I think what is said in that article is also interesting. 

Another article.
http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-20/food/fo-1109_1_tomato-pie (http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-20/food/fo-1109_1_tomato-pie)
 
Tomato Pies, 25 cents by Grace Cavalieri
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/240986 (http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/240986)
 
I don't think I have ever seen Joe's tomato pie, but think in the below article that is a photo of what Joe's tomato pie might have looked like.

http://eatyourworld.com/blog/pizza_around_the_world (http://eatyourworld.com/blog/pizza_around_the_world)
 

Another article about Maruca's tomato pies which I have never tasted.

http://tomsriver.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/more-than-50-years-of-maruca-s-tomato-pies (http://tomsriver.patch.com/groups/business-news/p/more-than-50-years-of-maruca-s-tomato-pies)
 
In this article it tells how Pizza Became an American Classic and also explains about Tomato Pies.

http://americanprofile.com/articles/how-pizza-became-an-american-classic/ (http://americanprofile.com/articles/how-pizza-became-an-american-classic/)
 
I wish I could find a direct link to the man that opens the dough on the video on the above link.  It is called “How to Toss a Pizza”.  I also wonder what hydration that dough is.

In this next article it gives the timelines for pizzas, including tomato pies.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Pizza/PizzaHistory.htm (http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Pizza/PizzaHistory.htm)
 
I don't know if Capitol Tomato Pie was a tomato pie like I am trying to find out or not.
http://glover320.blogspot.com/2012/07/1946-freont-street-capitol-tomato-pie.html (http://glover320.blogspot.com/2012/07/1946-freont-street-capitol-tomato-pie.html)
 
Trenton's Tomato Pie Cult from a blogger.
http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1462.htm (http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1462.htm)
 
Another timeline for pizzas.

http://clubpizza.org/timeline/ (http://clubpizza.org/timeline/)
 

In this bloggers article it says that tomato pies at Joe's Pizza sold for 10-15 cents almost until the outbreak of World War II. 
http://hamiltonhigh1951.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/1990joestomatopiestogowith550so-clintonavenue.jpg (http://hamiltonhigh1951.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/1990joestomatopiestogowith550so-clintonavenue.jpg) 

I guess Trenton tomato pies are almost the oldest kinds of pizzas in the US.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2013, 09:28:51 PM
These are photos from Monday when I made some of the batches of dough for the boardwalk style pizzas showing the final dough temperatures and how the dough looked coming out of the Hobart mixer.  Some other photos of the top and bottom of a dough ball and other photos.  The mixing of the boardwalk dough was using the delayed method of adding the oil and a 5 minute rest period in-between the mix and adding the oil.  If there are any questions I will try to answer them about the mix or anything else someone wants to know.  The total mixes took about 5 ½ to 6 minutes.  The flour used was the All Trumps flour.  The dough balls were scaled to 1.20 lbs for about a 17 ½” pizza.  The dough balls with the amount of IDY I used seemed to hold out well during the hours I was at market in the fermentation department. 

The next set of photos will be when some of the boardwalk style of pizza were made yesterday. 

The problem I am having now since I have almost dialed the formulation I want to always use is I can't figure out in smaller amounts as what to use.  I think I might need about another 5 or more dough balls each week.  These are the two formulations I used.  The first one was for the first dough and the second formulation was for the second dough.  Both formulations worked out well for me in the kind of pizza I want to achieve.  I wanted to not really press on the dough when opening it to show how there would be a greater rim rise, but I didn't have time to do that.

Flour 10.38 lbs.
Water 6.238 lbs.
IDY 0.026 lbs.
Sugar 0.092 lbs.
Olive oil .212 lbs.

Flour 10.38 lbs.
Water 6.15 lbs.
IDY 0.026 lbs.
Sugar 0.092 lbs.
Olive Oil .212 lbs. 

Bowl residue compensation for the batches was 1%

The boardwalk style pizza seemed to brown well enough, were tender in the crumb, had decent bottom browning and baked well in my deck oven. 

I had quite a few favorable comments from customers from NYC and other places yesterday.  There were two customers that asked me when I was coming to York, Pa. to make pizzas.  There also was a customer from Philly that said my boardwalk style of pizzas was really good.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2013, 09:33:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2013, 09:36:01 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2013, 09:37:09 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: parallei on July 11, 2013, 12:13:19 AM
Those look wonderful Norma!  No salt?

Quote
The problem I am having now since I have almost dialed the formulation I want to always use is I can't figure out in smaller amounts as what to use.

I took the liberty of converting your recipes to Bakers %'s.  Will this help?

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            334.1 g  |  11.78 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (60.1%):    200.79 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (163.28%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Second Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            335.95 g  |  11.85 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (59.2%):    198.88 g  |  7.02 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):        2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (162.38%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08





 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 11, 2013, 07:44:35 AM
Those look wonderful Norma!  No salt?

I took the liberty of converting your recipes to Bakers %'s.  Will this help?

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            334.1 g  |  11.78 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (60.1%):    200.79 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (163.28%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Second Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            335.95 g  |  11.85 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (59.2%):    198.88 g  |  7.02 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):        2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (162.38%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Wow Paul!  ;D Thank you so much for converting what I used into bakers percentages.  I just had my original print out sheet at market and would tweak a little each week.  Then I got into trouble when I wanted to make a few more dough balls because I then didn't know what baker's percentages I used since I had changed stuff.  Your the greatest for helping me!  8)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: pythonic on July 11, 2013, 09:13:16 PM
Beautiful pies Norma.  I wonder what they would taste like the other way around (more sauce then cheese)?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 11, 2013, 09:55:10 PM
Beautiful pies Norma.  I wonder what they would taste like the other way around (more sauce then cheese)?

Nate,

Thanks!  I think I use about the same amount of sauce that I had been using for a regular NY style pizza of the same size.  It just looks and tastes different when it is baked because the sauce and cheese are distributed differently. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 11, 2013, 10:46:24 PM
This pie is awesome..wish I could ride around on it like a magic carpet while holding another slice in my mitt. :)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2013, 06:14:18 AM
This pie is awesome..wish I could ride around on it like a magic carpet while holding another slice in my mitt. :)

Thanks Bob! 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on July 12, 2013, 08:56:43 AM
Norma,

I notice that you talked about making boardwalk pizzas. However, this thread has to do with Tomato Pies. Are they the same, or do you consider them to be so, and did you use Tomato Pie dough to make the boardwalk pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2013, 09:26:44 AM
Norma,

I notice that you talked about making boardwalk pizzas. However, this thread has to do with Tomato Pies. Are they the same, or do you consider them to be so, and did you use Tomato Pie dough to make the boardwalk pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

At least to me the Tomato Pies and boardwalk style pizzas are just about one and the same.  As I am sure you will recall I worked on the boardwalk style thread for a long while in combination with you and then never could get those pizzas exactly the way I wanted them.  It was mostly the cheese part on the boardwalk thread that I couldn't get right.  I think you also recall that I mentioned on the boardwalk style thread that Mack's Pizza isn't what I recall from the past.  My daughter visited Wildwood, NJ last Friday and told me Mack's Pizzas at both locations didn't look good at all, but I don't know how they would have tasted.  I told my daughter that I didn't want her to bring me any Mack's pizza home this time.  She said the two locations of Mack's Pizza weren't busy at all, but Sam's Pizza had big lines.  I think you also recall the last two times I was at Mack's Pizza I said that their pies had gone downhill.  I don't know if that is always true, but it is what I experienced.  When I went to Joey's in Trenton, NJ my eyes brightened and my mouth watered again at the taste of Joey's pizza and I guess that is what started me on the journey to make a pizza like Joey's.  I know I am not exactly there, but to me I am close enough right now.  I know my rims are larger than Joey's or Mack's though.

As you probably already noted the pies are baked about the same way at Mack's and Joey's and the sauce and cheese is applied the same way in a boardwalk style pizza and a Tomato pie.

I don't really recall all the formulations I tried out on the boardwalk thread, so I really don't know if I am using the same dough formulation on this thread right now. 

I do plan on using a regular flour with VWG added to see if the same crust can be achieved for a home pizza maker that doesn't have access to the All Trumps flour.  That will probably be in a couple of weeks.

Norma     
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Morgan on July 13, 2013, 06:58:59 AM
My ex-husband came to my pizza stand for the better part of yesterday.  He was in our area to visit close relatives for a few days.  He could not believe how busy a small pizza stand is on a rainy day.  He apologized different times for all of the trouble he gave me when we were married and said if he could go back years he sure would have been different.  He said he wished now that we could have stayed married.  We would have soon been married for 50 years if he would not have been such a character.  How time changes people.  :-D  My ex-husband said it was okay if I posted his picture on the forum.

Norma

He saw your latest pies and was like "I'm so stupid what did i throw away"... :-D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2013, 08:28:41 AM
He saw your latest pies and was like "I'm so stupid what did i throw away"... :-D

Morgan,

My ex-husband is a diabetic now and really doesn't eat much pizza or other foods things that turn to sugar, but does remember how I cooked for him and our children for many years.  His wife now only purchases stuff for them to eat, or uses frozen meatballs to make Italian dishes.  I was married to him when I was very young and started going with him when I was in the 11th grade in high school.  I was dumb and naive at that time and was bedazzled by his BS and charm.  :-D  I think many people have been there at one time in their lives and if I could go back to that time would do things differently now, but that is the way life is.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 13, 2013, 09:42:13 AM
  I was married to him when I was very young and started going with him when I was in the 11th grade in high school.  I was dumb and naive at that time and was bedazzled by his BS and charm.  :-D  I think many people have been there at one time in their lives and if I could go back to that time would do things differently now, but that is the way life is.

Norma
So even back then you were into pizzamaking eh Norma? Sounds like he was ahead of all of us by having a Black Stone way back then!  :-D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2013, 10:15:08 AM
So even back then you were into pizzamaking eh Norma? Sounds like he was ahead of all of us by having a Black Stone way back then!  :-D

Nope Bob, I wasn't into pizza making back then, I was more into regular baking things like cakes and pies.  The BS is the other kind.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on July 16, 2013, 09:11:57 PM
Hi Norma.  I took your latest recipe for a spin this weekend and really liked the results -- a nice, light crust with good crisp underneath.  I thought you might like to see the results of this recipe in a home oven.  I didn't construct it like a true tomato pie on this go around.  Toppings were: a little whole milk mozz, tomato sauce, followed by artichoke hearts, mushrooms, canadian bacon, and then fresh mozz and feta added during the last 5 minutes.  It doesn't look pretty, but sure tasted good.  (Those wet ingredients caused me to deform it a little during the launch).

I used your latest recipe but added 1.75% Kosher salt, and scaled it for 14" pies:

Flour (100%):    423.11 g  |  14.92 oz | 0.93 lbs
Water (60.1%):  254.29 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (0.25%): 1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 7.4 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%): 8.63 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Sugar (0.89%): 3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Total (165.03%): 698.26 g | 24.63 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = 0.08
Single Ball: 349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs

This is one of the better crusts I've had in this style and my most successful outing with 100% KASL flour.

Tim

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 16, 2013, 11:26:47 PM
Hi Norma.  I took your latest recipe for a spin this weekend and really liked the results -- a nice, light crust with good crisp underneath.  I thought you might like to see the results of this recipe in a home oven.  I didn't construct it like a true tomato pie on this go around.  Toppings were: a little whole milk mozz, tomato sauce, followed by artichoke hearts, mushrooms, canadian bacon, and then fresh mozz and feta added during the last 5 minutes.  It doesn't look pretty, but sure tasted good.  (Those wet ingredients caused me to deform it a little during the launch).

I used your latest recipe but added 1.75% Kosher salt, and scaled it for 14" pies:

Flour (100%):    423.11 g  |  14.92 oz | 0.93 lbs
Water (60.1%):  254.29 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (0.25%): 1.06 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (1.75%): 7.4 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%): 8.63 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.92 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Sugar (0.89%): 3.77 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.94 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Total (165.03%): 698.26 g | 24.63 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = 0.08
Single Ball: 349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs

This is one of the better crusts I've had in this style and my most successful outing with 100% KASL flour.

Tim

Tim,

I am glad you liked the pizza from the recipe I posted.  I did forget to post that I do use 1.75% Kosher Salt in the formulation Paul translated for me. :-[ You were spot on in deciding to use it.  Your pie looks really good.  ;D I like KASL too, but haven't used it for a long while since the preferment Lehmann dough thread.  I like your choice of dressings too.  I made a pizza today with the same dough, but formed the skin differently.  I will post about that tomorrow, but the rim did have good oven spring.  I probably will give a link on this thread, but will probably post the photos under NY style.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: parallei on July 16, 2013, 11:47:33 PM
I did forget to post that I do use 1.75% Kosher Salt in the formulation Paul translated for me. :-[

Norma! ;D

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%):    198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Second Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            332.37 g  |  11.72 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (59.2%):    196.76 g  |  6.94 oz | 0.43 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):            5.82 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.78 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.96 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (164.13%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 16, 2013, 11:54:34 PM
Norma! ;D

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%):    198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Second Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            332.37 g  |  11.72 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (59.2%):    196.76 g  |  6.94 oz | 0.43 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):            5.82 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.78 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.96 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (164.13%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Paul,

Thanks so much again!! ;D  I did put 1.75% in the expanded dough calculation tool after I saw my mistake, but I didn't post about my mistake here on the forum.   :-D  I don't know where my brain was when I didn't post the salt amount last week.  :-[  You're a great guy for doing all the work for me.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2013, 08:23:59 AM
If anyone is interested this was an experiment I did with one of the dough balls yesterday to see if more oven spring could be achieve with the same dough balls.  The dressing used were also different. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26385.msg266250.html#msg266250 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26385.msg266250.html#msg266250)

One photo of that pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 17, 2013, 04:09:31 PM
Norma, how long did it take these formulations to ferment? At what temp?


Those look wonderful Norma!  No salt?

I took the liberty of converting your recipes to Bakers %'s.  Will this help?

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            334.1 g  |  11.78 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (60.1%):    200.79 g  |  7.08 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.51 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.97 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (163.28%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08

Second Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            335.95 g  |  11.85 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (59.2%):    198.88 g  |  7.02 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.84 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.85 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.52 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):        2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (162.38%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2013, 06:23:14 PM
Norma, how long did it take these formulations to ferment? At what temp?

Craig,

I used the first formulation for this week and the dough batches final temperatures were in the upper 70 degrees F range, because I used cold water out of the deli case.  It was very hot at market when I was making the dough balls though, as can be seen on the first photo. (I took that photo for a future post I want to make about market to see if anyone can help me) When I turn on my pizza prep fridge it takes awhile to get down to temperature when it is so hot at market.  Until I left market it still wasn't down to temperature, but when I arrived there yesterday morning the temperature of the pizza prep fridge was 39 degrees F.  It is always a juggling act to make doughs at market when the temperatures fluctuate so much from winter to summer.  I should have taken photos of what my dough batches looked like, but until I cut, scaled, balled, oiled and bagged, skins formed on top of the not formed dough balls and they do get dry when the fans are running and it is hot.  The underneath part of the unformed dough is still very moist.  The dough was sticky and stuck to my fingers when it can out of the mixer, but it became much drier as it sat out.  The second photo is of my dough balls in the pizza prep fridge yesterday morning.  The third photo is of the Detroit style dough balls in the steel pans and in the plastic bags.  I keep the deli case running all week because of the cheese stored there, but don't keep the pizza prep fridge running to save money on electric.  A repairman told Steve two weeks ago when his pizza prep fridge broke down when he was at his market (he had to leave his market in the morning because his pizza prep fridge broke down), that kind of equipment is only meant to be used in temperatures of around 80 degrees F.  Most other foods vendors at market turn their deli cases off each week and take their things back to other places.  I heard other vendors say that the hot heat is hard on deli cases and see their deli cases have ice in them at the end of the night from them running so hard.

The dough was fermented well until I arrived in the morning, but not too much.  As the day wore on the dough balls were still okay, but did get bigger.

I had problems last Friday when I went to clean market again with the deli case almost freezing up.  I had to take the doors off the deli case to defrost the coils up top again.   

I would be curious as to why you asked those questions.  Is it because of the small amount of IDY I use?

It was a little over 90 degrees F at market when I was making dough batches on Monday.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 18, 2013, 08:48:27 AM
Norma,
Your refrigerators could be put on a weekly timer set to turn on day before market,no? And then for the cheese; if you could possibly squeeze in a little "dorm room" type of refrig. somewhere that would take care of running the deli case too much. Or, possibly a fellow marketer has room in a regular frig. where you could store your cheese during the week.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2013, 10:12:04 AM
Norma,
Your refrigerators could be put on a weekly timer set to turn on day before market,no? And then for the cheese; if you could possibly squeeze in a little "dorm room" type of refrig. somewhere that would take care of running the deli case too much. Or, possibly a fellow marketer has room in a regular frig. where you could store your cheese during the week.

Bob,

I never thought about a weekly timer to turn on the pizza prep fridge.  I think it would be down to the temperature I want if the timer was set for early Monday morning.  Thanks for that idea!  ;)

I don't think a dorm room fridge would hold all of my cheeses though because I have over 45 lbs. of cheeses most of the time at market.  I also have a few other things that need refrigerated too.  The only other vendor I know of that leaves their fridges on is the one vendor that sells fried and broasted chicken.  I know they let leftover chicken in their fridge from one week to the next, so I wouldn't want my cheeses in there with that leftover chicken.  I only know about that chicken from one time the power went off at market for awhile on a non-market day.  When I got to market someone told me about the chicken in the fridge until the next week.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 18, 2013, 10:40:18 AM
Glad to be of assistance Norma....try Home Depot for the timer.  ;)

Hey...broasted chicken!?  :drool:   Haven't had that in over 25 yrs.; back home we had a little mom an pop country restaurant that was the only place in town to get that stuff...the chicken and the big broasted tater wedges. Thanks for the memory!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2013, 04:53:51 PM
Glad to be of assistance Norma....try Home Depot for the timer.  ;)

Hey...broasted chicken!?  :drool:   Haven't had that in over 25 yrs.; back home we had a little mom an pop country restaurant that was the only place in town to get that stuff...the chicken and the big broasted tater wedges. Thanks for the memory!  :chef:

Bob,

I will check out Home Depot for the timer.  Hopefully by tomorrow night or Saturday it will be a little cooler in our area.  I went today and got flour and cheese and took them to market, cleaned and did a few other errands and it was way too hot out for me.

Yep, they have broasted chicken and broasted potato wedges at that chicken stand, plus other stuff.  It is a Amish family that owns that stand.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 22, 2013, 02:45:21 PM
I tried making a few tomato pies last week. I have a lot to learn, notwithstanding, I don't see this ever being my favorite style.

These are:
KAAP (would have used KABF but didn't have any)
64% water
2% salt
2% evoo
1% sugar
0.03% IDY

24 hours in balls at 64F. Baked at 550F for about 8 minutes.

The red peppers on the pie in the first picture are Anaheim peppers that turned red in the garden and I cured sott'olio. That was the best pie by far. I clearly used more pepperoni that I should have on the pepperoni pie, but that is a family demand that must be met.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 22, 2013, 09:57:56 PM
I tried making a few tomato pies last week. I have a lot to learn, notwithstanding, I don't see this ever being my favorite style.

These are:
KAAP (would have used KABF but didn't have any)
64% water
2% salt
2% evoo
1% sugar
0.03% IDY

24 hours in balls at 64F. Baked at 550F for about 8 minutes.

The red peppers on the pie in the first picture are Anaheim peppers that turned red in the garden and I cured sott'olio. That was the best pie by far. I clearly used more pepperoni that I should have on the pepperoni pie, but that is a family demand that must be met.

Craig,

Your tomatoes pies look delicious!  ;D I like how you fermented 24 hours in balls at 64 degrees F.

I know your real love is for Neapolitan pizzas.   :angel:

Do you mind telling me what you did with the Anaheim peppers?  I don't know what cured sott'olio is or how it is done.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 22, 2013, 10:35:36 PM
Do you mind telling me what you did with the Anaheim peppers?  I don't know what cured sott'olio is or how it is done.

This was a modified (for speed) approach that was really a proof-of-concept for a larger project, but the end product was quite tasty. Basically, I cut them in half, salted them, and let them sit until they had given up most of their water. I then washed them in vinegar, poured hot EVOO on them and let them sit overnight.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on July 23, 2013, 06:45:11 AM
This was a modified (for speed) approach that was really a proof-of-concept for a larger project, but the end product was quite tasty. Basically, I cut them in half, salted them, and let them sit until they had given up most of their water. I then washed them in vinegar, poured hot EVOO on them and let them sit overnight.

Craig,

Thanks for telling me what you did with the Anaheim peppers.  That sounds like something interesting to try with peppers.  Looking forward to hearing about you larger project.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2013, 07:58:32 AM
In one batch of my doughs on Monday I used 1 regular frozen dough ball and 2 frozen Detroit style doughs.  The finished dough was more sticky than usual and then I used the same method of balling that I do for the Detroit style dough, in that I do flour each scaled dough a little before balling.  It now makes me wonder just what happened with those dough balls it that they were easier to open.  I don't know if that was from adding old dough, maybe a higher hydration, or the flouring method I then used from the more sticky dough.  I didn't have time to taste any of those pizzas, but the dough balls handled beautifully.  It was a lot less humid and cooler when I made the dough batches on Monday too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Markus M. on August 01, 2013, 09:59:25 PM
Umm UM! Those pies look good!  :drool: dang it! now im hungry. good job!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2013, 10:35:37 PM
Umm UM! Those pies look good!  :drool: dang it! now im hungry. good job!

Markus,

Thanks for your kind words!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 04, 2013, 08:52:29 PM
I finally got to try a Maruca's pizza today. http://www.marucaspizza.com/ (http://www.marucaspizza.com/)   My daughter and granddaughter went to Seaside Heights to visit and brought me home 2 slices of Maruca's pepperoni pizza.  They purchased a whole pizza and took two slices out of the whole pizza for me.  I thought Maruca's pizza was very good, but the cheese doesn't taste anything like Mack's or Manco & Mancos cheese.  The crust was better than a Mack's pizza in my opinion and had more taste in the crust than a Mack's pizza.  It seems like there is some kind of buttery taste in the rim crust of Maruca's pizza. 

The BS is sure good for reheating slices.  The bottom crust was was very crispy after the reheat and to reheat a slice sure is quick. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2013, 08:41:53 AM
These are a few photos of the boardwalk style of pizzas, or the tomato pies from yesterday.  I think most of my regular customers are used to the name boardwalk style of pizza, so I think it would be hard now to change the name to tomato pies.

I  purchased a block (5.88 lbs.) of Foremost Farms LMPS mozzarella from my local distributor and had it delivered yesterday.  It can be seen what the price per pound is right now.  The price per pound for what I pay for the cheddar by the block (44.1 lbs) can also be seen on the invoice from yesterday.  There is a fairly big difference in the prices of  those two cheeses when you are making more than a few pizzas a day.  For a home pizza maker they probably would like to pay either of those prices.  The price per lb. of the Foremost Farms LMPS mozzarella jumped 20 cents per lb. since the last time I purchased a block.  The price of the cheddar went down a few cents a lb. in the price in two weeks. 

After I had turned my oven yesterday morning and was getting some things set up the one maintenance man brought me this email Root's Market had received 7/30/2013.  I did call Bonnie and asked when she wanted the 4 pizzas with extra sauce ready.  Bonnie said she had tried my pizzas last week and had taken some slices home to her children.  They all decided they really liked my boardwalk style of pizzas and that is why Bonnie ordered 4 more pizzas.  It kind of unnerves me that Root's Market didn't call me or email about that pizza order, because they do have my email and phone numbers.  I also have been talking to Root's management in the last week about the other thread I started on how to get more foot traffic to my area. Bonnie said she is an early market person and was ready to come to Root's when I talked to her at 8:45 AM in the morning.  I told Bonnie my oven wasn't heated up enough to make her those pizzas right away, but I could have them ready by 10:15 AM.  I did give Bonnie my email and two phone numbers when she picked the pizzas up, so she doesn't have to email Root's management anymore.  I did have to make a few pizza also to put in my heated case in that amount of time.  Bonnie also brought a friend along that tried a slice of my boardwalk style of pizzas.  She said the next time she is also going to order a whole pizza.  I can always get to market a little earlier if someone wants to pick up whole pizza earlier.

I had different customers tell me yesterday that they did share my my facebook pictures of my boardwalk style of pizzas on their facebook page and told their friends to try my boardwalk style of pizzas.  I thanked those customers for sharing my photos of my boardwalk style of pizzas.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 07, 2013, 09:07:38 AM
Boy I wish I could kick somebody right square in the pants over there at Root's management. What a bunch of lazy asses....worse than a damn donkey! DANG!!    ::)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2013, 09:46:35 AM
Boy I wish I could kick somebody right square in the pants over there at Root's management. What a bunch of lazy asses....worse than a damn donkey! DANG!!    ::)

Lol Bob!   :-D  I get discouraged with market management different times.  A little while ago market management had purchased blocks of tickets to our local Barnstormers baseball games and had drawings to win those blocks of tickets.  I had talked to market management different times about getting more foot traffic to our area.  The last time I talked to them before I recently emailed the thread about getting more foot traffic to our area, market management sent a maintenance man to give me the winning names of people that won those tickets. Market management had emailed the winners.  I guess because I was complaining and they might have thought emailing those winners might bring more customers back to my area.  I had the winning tickets for 3 weeks and only three of the winners actually came and picked them up.  Another maintenance man came back last week and asked if I still had any tickets left because market management wanted to know.  I said yes I had loads of those blocks of winning tickets left and is market going to email the winners again.  No one told me nothing.  I had to check who the winners were when they came to pick up the winning tickets and keep different papers separate from one another to be able to give the office all the stuff back.  I finally took those winning tickets back to the office.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 07, 2013, 12:56:14 PM
Yeah, they volunteer you to take care of their e-mails but, IMHO,  when it comes to your important e-mails it's "so long sucker!"   :-*
Bob don't like them people...they play dirty pool.  ::)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 07, 2013, 02:58:30 PM
Bob,

Often what people do or fail to do is not with malicious intent. It is incompetence. In this case, Norma may be able to tell the difference.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2013, 04:32:04 PM
Yeah, they volunteer you to take care of their e-mails but, IMHO,  when it comes to your important e-mails it's "so long sucker!"   :-*
Bob don't like them people...they play dirty pool.  ::)

Bob,

I think the reason the market management gave me the blocks of tickets to hand out was because market management thought that might get more people back into my area.  Market management did send the emails out to the winners in the first place.  This is another story about what market management did to try and help out the sports vendors that are almost across from me.  They also complain that not enough customers get into our area to market management and also have talked about leaving market.  Market management did put the box where customers fill out the entries for those blocks of tickets at their stand to try to draw more people back there.  Market management did announce each week over the loudspeakers that people could go back to their stand to fill out entries.  I really don't think that helped those vendors much though.  The one night I asked if I could look in the entry box to see how many entries were filled out that day.  There sure weren't many entries for all the the people that come to market. 

Bob,

Often what people do or fail to do is not with malicious intent. It is incompetence. In this case, Norma may be able to tell the difference.

Peter

I don't think what market management does has any malicious intent.  I think market management just doesn't follow up on what it should.  I don't know if that is from not having enough people in the office or not.  Market management does have a lot to deal with with all the vendors that are at market.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: DenaliPete on August 12, 2013, 09:55:05 AM
Wow Paul!  ;D Thank you so much for converting what I used into bakers percentages.  I just had my original print out sheet at market and would tweak a little each week.  Then I got into trouble when I wanted to make a few more dough balls because I then didn't know what baker's percentages I used since I had changed stuff.  Your the greatest for helping me!  8)

Norma

Norma,

It seems like you're a pro with using the pizzatools here.  Can you advise how I would convert your current formula to make say, a 14 inch pizza?  I'd like something I could use in the Blackstone.

Thanks,

Pete
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2013, 10:32:02 AM
Norma,

Can you advise how I would convert your current formula to make say, a 14 inch pizza?  I'd like something I could use in the Blackstone.

Thanks,

Pete


Pete,

The dough calculation tools here on the forum are not hard to use.  If you take the first dough formulation Paul posted at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219) and use a size of a 14” pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool, or the Lehmann dough calculation tool this is what you will get. 

What Paul set forth for me for a 17.5” pizza.
First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%):    198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08 

This is using the Lehmann dough calculation tool for a 14” pizza at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html)  but you can also use the expanded dough calculation tool at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html)

Flour (100%):                 211.56 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
Water (60.1%):                 127.15 g  |  4.48 oz | 0.28 lbs
IDY (.25%):                     0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                       3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Oil (2.04%):                     4.32 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):                     1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (165.03%):    349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.08

When you want to make a different size pizza than is given in anyones formulation all you have to do is put all of the numbers in the dough calculation tool that are given, except the pizza size.  All depending on how long you might want to cold ferment your dough ball you might need to up that amount of IDY.

You might want to note the bowl residue compensation for any dough that might be left in the bowl or on the dough hook.  I usually use a bowl residue compensation.

What style of pizza do you want me make in your BS?  Do you want more of a NY style pizza or do you want to make a Neapolitan style pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 12, 2013, 01:38:16 PM
Delorenzo's I believe uses some type of california crushed tomatoes combined with whole Red Pack tomatoes.  They slightly squeeze the whole tomatoes so that they are still fairly large (1/3 to 1/2 of the whole tomato still intact).  The crushed tomatoes give it the sauce aspect while the whole tomatoes turn into sweet chunks.  I've been going there quite a while and my wife has known the Delorenzo family her whole life.  I also watch them plenty behind the counter.  They put a thin layer of low moisture mozzarella on the pie, followed by ladles of their sauce/tomato mixture along the pie.  It's basically the thinnest layer of cheese and sauce you can put on the pie while still having it completely covered.  They also put olive oil on top with a squeeze bottle.  After that, halfway through the bake, they sprinkle a tiny amount of mozzarella on top of the pie.  The cut on the pie is also different.  1 straight down the middle, and then 4 cuts perpendicular to the first cut. 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2013, 01:59:08 PM
BenLee,

Having spent considerable time trying to reverse engineer and clone the DeLorenzo pizzas, this is what I learned about the tomatoes used at the Trenton location. First, it was said that De Lorenzo used canned RedPack tomatoes. Then, someone reported seeing cans of 6-in-1 tomatoes. That was followed by someone reporting that the tomatoes were a brand with an Italian name. My thinking was that it was perhaps the Sclafani canned NJ tomatoes. Members reported that the tomatoes were whole tomatoes and that they were crushed by hand. The "sauce" made from the tomatoes was chunky rather than smooth and it was not cooked. Additions to the sauce that were mentioned included salt and sugar but no herbs. There was some discussion about use of garlic powder or oil in the sauce, but I never got confirmation on those items.

In Reply 166 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg73575.html#msg73575 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg73575.html#msg73575) , a member reported that a former worker at one of the De Lorenzo locations said that the tomatoes were "1 can of Crushed Red Pack Tomatoes combined with 2 cans of Whole Red Pack Tomatoes". I can imagine that the 6-in1s could have been substituted at any one of the different locations for the crushed RedPack tomatoes, and that some other brand of whole tomatoes (maybe the Italian named brand) could have been substituted for the whole RedPack tomatoes. The sauce was put on the pizzas in swirls or dollops.

To see what the tomato sauce looked like at the Robbinsville De Lorenzo location, look at the photos linked in Reply 150 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg58394.html#msg58394 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg58394.html#msg58394) . If you click on the thumb-nail photos, you can get a good up close look at the sauce, where you will see that it is not smooth. It is also bright.

My recollection is that there was a rivalry between different parts of the De Lorenzo family so it is possible that they didn't all use the same sauce, or the exact same dough, cheeses, etc.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 12, 2013, 03:43:25 PM
Very good looking pies Norma...

I've always been a fan of Three Brothers pizza in Seaside as far as boardwalk pizza...I wasn't partial to Marucas. But when it comes to tomato pies..the end all, be all IMO is DeLorenzos... That's my personal mission right now

Next is trying to nail Sally's New Haven, CT "Apizza" style...which for me is impossible with my electric oven.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on August 12, 2013, 03:52:15 PM
Next is trying to nail Sally's New Haven, CT "Apizza" style...which for me is impossible with my electric oven.

I see, from another of your posts, that your oven goes to 550.  As long as the broiler is in the main compartment and not a separate drawer, you can achieve NH style with 1/2" steel.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23827.msg241924.html#msg241924 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23827.msg241924.html#msg241924)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2013, 06:22:29 PM
Very good looking pies Norma...

I've always been a fan of Three Brothers pizza in Seaside as far as boardwalk pizza...I wasn't partial to Marucas. But when it comes to tomato pies..the end all, be all IMO is DeLorenzos... That's my personal mission right now


Hobbs,

Thanks!  I never tasted Three Brothers pizza in Seaside.  I was not partial to Marucas after I tasted it either.  I didn't get to try DeLorenzos pizzas when I was in Trenton, NJ, but I really liked Joey's pizza.  I did a review at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.0.html) with Joey's pizzas in that thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2013, 06:23:39 PM
I just talked to Trenton Bill and what he recalls about DeLorenzo sauce was that it was made with 6-in-1's and Red Pack whole tomatoes American style, not the Red Pack Italian style.  He also said that maybe a little sugar is used in the sauce, but no herbs.  Bill also said that the Maggio mozzarella used to be used, but he doesn't know what DeLorenzo's uses now.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 12, 2013, 09:02:52 PM
I just talked to Trenton Bill and what he recalls about DeLorenzo sauce was that it was made with 6-in-1's and Red Pack whole tomatoes American style, not the Red Pack Italian style.  He also said that maybe a little sugar is used in the sauce, but no herbs.  Bill also said that the Maggio mozzarella used to be used, but he doesn't know what DeLorenzo's uses now.

Norma

I remember it tasting like Maggio Mozzarella, but we saw Sargento bags at Hudson ave one day.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 12, 2013, 09:06:43 PM
Pete-zza,

my guess would be they just hand crush the Red Pack into the 6 in 1.  I wouldn't doubt about a little sugar being added because the tomatoes always had a unique sweetness that exceeded what you would expect from Red pack.  Although, California tomatoes like 6 in 1 are pretty sweet in their own right so its a toss up.  Obviously, they have to add salt.  I would say that they don't do any herbs or garlic powder or anything like that.  The tomatoes look very bright and pure.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: DenaliPete on August 12, 2013, 09:39:17 PM

Pete,

The dough calculation tools here on the forum are not hard to use.  If you take the first dough formulation Paul posted at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg266219.html#msg266219) and use a size of a 14” pizza in the expanded dough calculation tool, or the Lehmann dough calculation tool this is what you will get. 

What Paul set forth for me for a 17.5” pizza.
First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):            330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%):    198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%):    6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):            2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):   545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08 

This is using the Lehmann dough calculation tool for a 14” pizza at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html)  but you can also use the expanded dough calculation tool at:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html)

Flour (100%):                 211.56 g  |  7.46 oz | 0.47 lbs
Water (60.1%):                 127.15 g  |  4.48 oz | 0.28 lbs
IDY (.25%):                     0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                       3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Oil (2.04%):                     4.32 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.96 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):                     1.88 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (165.03%):    349.13 g | 12.32 oz | 0.77 lbs | TF = 0.08

When you want to make a different size pizza than is given in anyones formulation all you have to do is put all of the numbers in the dough calculation tool that are given, except the pizza size.  All depending on how long you might want to cold ferment your dough ball you might need to up that amount of IDY.

You might want to note the bowl residue compensation for any dough that might be left in the bowl or on the dough hook.  I usually use a bowl residue compensation.

What style of pizza do you want me make in your BS?  Do you want more of a NY style pizza or do you want to make a Neapolitan style pizza.

Norma

Thank you for your assistance Norma.  You've made the dough calculators a bit less intimidating for me.

I am constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  In my black stone I will be attempting NY style and Neapolitan.  I am a large fan of the Neapolitan bakes, but I do like to make pizza for my folks, and they are more keen on NY style bakes.  Although I think if they were having NP pizzas that were made by a true craftsman and not simply what I'm able to produce that they may change their mind. 

With your tomato pie recipe I'm planning on staying true to form and keeping it kind of NY style.

Although I am curious what cheese blend you use for this style of pizza.

I will look back on this thread and determine what flour is being used most commonly.  I have access to AP flour, Bread flour, and 00 currently.  I do not know anyplace locally where I'd be able to purchase high gluten flour and would likely have to order that online.

Pete
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2013, 10:20:33 PM
I remember it tasting like Maggio Mozzarella, but we saw Sargento bags at Hudson ave one day.

BenLee,

I haven't ever tasted Maggio or Sargento mozzarella, so if I ever get to try Delorenzo's pizza someday, I would have no idea of what mozzarella they use.  As Peter posted they might have changed their cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2013, 10:35:17 PM
Thank you for your assistance Norma.  You've made the dough calculators a bit less intimidating for me.

I am constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  :-D  In my black stone I will be attempting NY style and Neapolitan.  I am a large fan of the Neapolitan bakes, but I do like to make pizza for my folks, and they are more keen on NY style bakes.  Although I think if they were having NP pizzas that were made by a true craftsman and not simply what I'm able to produce that they may change their mind. 

With your tomato pie recipe I'm planning on staying true to form and keeping it kind of NY style.

Although I am curious what cheese blend you use for this style of pizza.

I will look back on this thread and determine what flour is being used most commonly.  I have access to AP flour, Bread flour, and 00 currently.  I do not know anyplace locally where I'd be able to purchase high gluten flour and would likely have to order that online.

Pete

Pete,

Your welcome anytime.  The dough calculators really aren't intimidating after you play around with them a little.  I am not good with math, so since I have learned to use the dough calculators they have been a great help to me.  I changed the dough formulation I used for the NY style pizza last week for the BS to the one I used yesterday to make a pizza in the BS.  It is at Reply 122 if you are interested (second formulation down in that post).  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.msg272074.html#msg272074 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.msg272074.html#msg272074)

I guess you are like me if you are constantly tinkering and trying out new formulas.  I am a huge fan of Neapolitan pizzas too, but only my mother likes Neapolitan pizza in our family.  It will be interesting if your family members changes their minds about Neapolitan pizza once you make some.  So far the rest of my family won't budge from NY style.   

I use a mild white cheddar on this type of pizza, but it only comes in about 45 lb. blocks and is only available though a distributor. 

I am only using high-gluten flours on this thread.  I had meant to make a tomato pie crust with a lesser protein flour and add VWG, but life got in the way right now.  I still want to do that though. 

If you need any other help with the dough calculation tools let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 12, 2013, 10:53:37 PM
I had meant to make a tomato pie crust with a lesser protein flour and add VWG, but life got in the way right now.  I still want to do that though. 


Norma,
I would be very interested in hearing why it is you would like to try a weaker flour and add VWG.
I am currently experimenting with low carb pizza doughs using a flour substitute called Carbalose. Last nights dough included some VWG but I have no idea what I am doing just yet.
Just interested in why you want to use VWG, thanks.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 13, 2013, 06:16:50 AM
Norma,
I would be very interested in hearing why it is you would like to try a weaker flour and add VWG.
I am currently experimenting with low carb pizza doughs using a flour substitute called Carbalose. Last nights dough included some VWG but I have no idea what I am doing just yet.
Just interested in why you want to use VWG, thanks.

Bob,

The reason I posted I wanted to make a tomato pie dough with a lower protein flour and VWG is because I want the dough and crust to be something like a tomato pie is for home pizza makers that don't have access to higher gluten flours (around 14%) like I do in case they might want to try a dough for a tomato pie. 

If you look at Peter's post at Reply 1506 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215139.html#msg215139 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215139.html#msg215139) he explains how much Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten to add to KABF to get a total protein content of 14.0%.  You will also see by increasing the amount of IDY to 0.95 grams I changed the total dough formulation.  You can also see from that post that November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator needs to be used.

When I have time I will try to change what I am doing with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator to reflect what I am now using in the formulation.  I did just change my percentage of water yesterday, but that has nothing to do with the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  I probably will have problems figuring out a formulation for a dough with KABF and VWG for home pizza makers to use since I changed the formulation and I am making a 17.5" pizza. 

You can also see what Peter explained at Reply 1508 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215151.html#msg215151 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg215151.html#msg215151) about how a problem would arise when a member who cannot make a 18” pizza and then asks how to modify that dough formulation in the boardwalk thread.

Not all members like VWG, but I have no problems with it.

I hope you can get a formulation figured out using Carbalose and VWG.  VWG can only be added to a certain point and I sure don't know anything about how much VWG can be added to Carbalose.  Good luck in figuring out a formulation for pizza dough using Carbalose and VWG.  ;)   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2013, 08:13:34 AM
Norma,

If you conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html) using Maggio as the search term, you will get several hits. Based on those posts, it does indeed seem clear that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese. That cheese was shredded and came in unmarked bags. It was later reported, at Reply 115 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024), that the Maggio cheese was replaced by another cheese because of inconsistency problems. The Sargento cheese was mentioned, and a couple of us speculated that the new cheese was Grande cheese. Looking back now, I am not sure that the replacement cheese was Grande cheese only because Grande does not ordinarily use unmarked shredded cheese bags.

As can be seen at http://www.maggiocheese.com/  (http://www.maggiocheese.com/), Maggio cheese products still exist. They are sold at retail in a multi-state area that includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html)). However, as was previously reported in the Trenton thread, Maggio's was sold in 1998 to Crowley Foods. At the time, Maggio had been using a New Jersey company to make their cheese under contract, as was reported in the article at http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary (http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary). I would be surprised if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Mazzio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used. One can see the shredded cheese that De Lorenzo's now uses in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm) and, on a pizza, in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm).

It will also be noted that Maggio's has a foodservice division. However, if one looks at the products at http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html (http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html), it will be seen that the only bagged mozzarella cheese is Part Skim Shredded Mozz, in 5-lb bags. From what I recall, De Lorenzo's was said to be using a pre-shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese.

For your purposes in making tomato pies, there is no need to try to emulate the De Lorenzo's tomato pies. However, the De Lorenzo tomato pies might serve as a style to consider in your efforts to make your version, particularly with respect to the types of the pizza sauce and cheese emblematic of that style.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 14, 2013, 10:12:22 PM
I did a few experiments with the Marsal Pizza dough mold http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=45 (http://www.marsalsons.com/default.aspx?pageId=45) yesterday to see if my rim crust would look different after it was baked, but in my opinion the rim crust didn't look any different than usual.  The skin seemed easier to open though.  I guess the way the toppings are applied make the rim crust look about the same.

Norma

EDIT (5/13/15): For a substitute for the pizza dough mold that apparently is no longer available, see the pictorial at http://www.marsalsons.com/doughmolds.html  ; for a link to the Marsal website, see http://www.marsalsons.com/index.html
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 14, 2013, 10:38:36 PM
Norma,

If you conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html) using Maggio as the search term, you will get several hits. Based on those posts, it does indeed seem clear that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese. That cheese was shredded and came in unmarked bags. It was later reported, at Reply 115 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45024/topicseen.html#msg45024), that the Maggio cheese was replaced by another cheese because of inconsistency problems. The Sargento cheese was mentioned, and a couple of us speculated that the new cheese was Grande cheese. Looking back now, I am not sure that the replacement cheese was Grande cheese only because Grande does not ordinarily use unmarked shredded cheese bags.

As can be seen at http://www.maggiocheese.com/  (http://www.maggiocheese.com/), Maggio cheese products still exist. They are sold at retail in a multi-state area that includes Pennsylvania and New Jersey (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html (http://www.maggiocheese.com/findus.html)). However, as was previously reported in the Trenton thread, Maggio's was sold in 1998 to Crowley Foods. At the time, Maggio had been using a New Jersey company to make their cheese under contract, as was reported in the article at http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary (http://articles.philly.com/1998-07-15/business/25736696_1_crowley-foods-cheese-anniversary). I would be surprised if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Mazzio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used. One can see the shredded cheese that De Lorenzo's now uses in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3160_JPG.htm) and, on a pizza, in the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3163_JPG.htm).

It will also be noted that Maggio's has a foodservice division. However, if one looks at the products at http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html (http://www.maggiocheese.com/foodservice_selections.html), it will be seen that the only bagged mozzarella cheese is Part Skim Shredded Mozz, in 5-lb bags. From what I recall, De Lorenzo's was said to be using a pre-shredded whole milk mozzarella cheese.

For your purposes in making tomato pies, there is no need to try to emulate the De Lorenzo's tomato pies. However, the De Lorenzo tomato pies might serve as a style to consider in your efforts to make your version, particularly with respect to the types of the pizza sauce and cheese emblematic of that style.

Peter

Peter,

I did conduct a search of the Trenton/De Lorenzo thread using Maggio as the search term and saw what was posted.  I see that De Lorenzo's at one time used the Maggio mozzarella cheese.  I see that Sargento cheese was mentioned also. 

Thanks for the link to show where to purchase Maggio mozzarella.  I have to look at Giant and Weis supermarkets to see if I find the Maggio mozzarella.  I don't recall that I saw any Maggio mozzarella at the IGA supermarket I go to sometimes.  I also doubt if Crowley Foods is still making and selling the original Maggio mozzarella cheese product that De Lorenzo's used.  Thanks for the links to the photos of what the shredded cheese looked like at De Lorenzo's.  I see under the foodservice division that Maggio only sells Part Skim shredded mozzarella in a 5 lb. Bag.   

Do you think I should try an experiment with one of your attempts at a clone De Lorenzo's dough to see what I think of it?  If you do, what would be your favorite dough formulation to try.  Maybe I would like a De Lorenzo's crust better than what I am making now.  Who knows what I like best at this point in time.  I keep changing my mind.  I told Steve on Tuesday that I had said I like the pizzas in the BS the best, but after tasting the boardwalk style of pizzas Tuesday I changed my mind again.  I told Steve the NY style pizzas I made it the BS last week kind of reminded me of the NY style pizzas Steve makes in his WFO in his Airstream.  Steve at least understands me and how changeable I am.   :-D

I might be going to the 9th St. Italian Market in Philly this coming Saturday and might look for some Maggio mozzarella, or some Sargento cheese there .  I think I have some 6-in-1's tomato sauce and some Red Pack tomatoes at home. 

I really only would know though if my attempt would be anything like De Lorenzo's pizza if I get to Trenton again.  I might plan a trip to Trenton this fall though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2013, 08:43:30 AM
Do you think I should try an experiment with one of your attempts at a clone De Lorenzo's dough to see what I think of it?  If you do, what would be your favorite dough formulation to try.  Maybe I would like a De Lorenzo's crust better than what I am making now.  Who knows what I like best at this point in time.  I keep changing my mind.
Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm). De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm)), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 15, 2013, 11:24:21 AM
I'll bet those unorthodox methods make for some really great pizza. I'm going to try some as soon as I get this low-carb thing figured out. Thanks for the links Peter!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2013, 12:06:01 PM
Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm). De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm)), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter

Peter,

I do know you never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza.  I also know things have changed a lot at De Lorenzo's since you were engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project.  I did try to visit De Lorenzo's when I was in Trenton, NJ with Trenton Bill, but I guess you saw things didn't go right in being able to visit any De Lorenzo's locations.  Either the De Lorenzo's locations we tried to visit had closed down, or De Lorenzo's didn't open until late in the afternoon.  Also at that supermarket where a De Lorenzo's location used to be it wasn't there anymore.

It probably would be better to wait to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza until I get to visit De Lorenzo's, but I am curious how a De Lorenzo's pizza would work out in my BS and maybe at market.  I would be interested if you could point me to a clone dough formulation to try.  I don't need a clone De Lorenzo's dough formulation to give it a shot.  I like the looks of De Lorenzo's pizza even though I never tasted one. 

I saw there are some pretty unorthodox things De Lorenzo's does with their pizzas.  Thanks for the link to that photo shoot again.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2013, 04:10:08 PM
It probably would be better to wait to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza until I get to visit De Lorenzo's, but I am curious how a De Lorenzo's pizza would work out in my BS and maybe at market.  I would be interested if you could point me to a clone dough formulation to try.  I don't need a clone De Lorenzo's dough formulation to give it a shot.  I like the looks of De Lorenzo's pizza even though I never tasted one. 
Norma,

I couldn't tell from the above whether you want a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation or not. Maybe you can clarify.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 15, 2013, 05:48:04 PM
Norma,

As you may know, I have never had a real De Lorenzo's pizza. So, I never knew how close I got to one when I was engaged in the De Lorenzo reverse engineering and cloning project. Also, things have changed a lot since that time. For example, the Trenton Hudson St. De Lorenzo store shut down completely (due to advancing age--in the mid to late 60s--of the husband and wife owners, not because of lack of business). My work was conducted relative to the pizzas that were made at that location, based on information provided by several of our members. Then the Trenton Hamilton St. location, which was run by other members of the De Lorenzo clan, closed and moved to another location in Trenton. Along the way, before the closure of the Hudson St. location, the son of the owners of that location opened up a new location in Robbinsville. I would imagine that that location pretty much follows the practices that were used at Hudson St. but most likely with some changes since things rarely remain the same over a period of many years (several decades in this case).

I mention all of the above in case you decide that it might be better to wait until you can visit either of the two remaining De Lorenzo locations. I did try several versions of De Lorenzo clone dough formulations but the early ones turned out to have been based on a false premise--specifically, that De Lorenzo's was using a sourdough culture or something akin to an old dough. That led to some dead ends, although I did learn quite a bit about the old dough method notwithstanding. If you can't wait for Robbinsville, I can perhaps point you to a clone dough formulation to try.

Also, for some ideas that you might want to incorporate into your present Trenton tomato pies, you might take a look at the photos from the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm). De Lorenzo's used to do some fairly unorthodox things with its pizzas, such as partially baking a pizza and then adding toppings (like pepperoni), or partially baking a pizza and then adding sauce and maybe more cheese (e.g., see http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3164_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3175_JPG.htm)), and shifting pizzas between upper and lower stacked Blodgett deck ovens during the bake. There were perhaps several different protocols that De Lorenzo's used to make different ones of its pizzas that we were not able to fully decipher. I think these wrinkles made it more challenging to come up with credible clones.

Peter

Peter, Sammy, the grandson of Chick is the one who runs the Robbinsville location of Delorenzo's Tomato Pies.  The father, Gary (son in law of Chick) shut up shop in Trenton because it was getting too dangerous.  Last I heard, he was going to open up shop somewhere in PA.  Sammy was making pies for a good 10 to 15 years at Hudson street and I can verify that nothing has changed in terms of preparation and the way they make the pie.  I've been to both at least 20 times.

The Delorenzo's Pizza on Hamilton ave recently shut up shop in Trenton due to crime issues.  They have moved to Hamilton, the neighboring municipality (they even brought their old sign) and I haven't been able to get in as they have been packed.  I actually live about 8 minutes away from this one right now.

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

More recently, Papa's Tomato Pies, the oldest continually running pizzeria in the US is opening up a new location any day now in Robbinsville (a block away from Delorenzo's Tomato Pies).  The father is the one running the new shop while the son is going to take over at the Trenton shop.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the Trenton shop shut down soon though due to the crime in Trenton.

However, soon, there will be a good opportunity for those that are into trying this style of pizza to go to all three in safe neighborhoods which is nice.  We stopped going to Hudson St. 4 years ago after someone was shot in the alley way.  We've always avoided the Hamilton Ave Delorenzo's Pizza because of the danger in going to that neighborhood.  Papa's was literally in a warzone so we never bothered there either.  Kinda sad as we've watch a bunch of businesses that were extremely old and staples of a city for over 60 years to flee or shut up shop altogether.     
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2013, 06:17:26 PM
Norma,

I couldn't tell from the above whether you want a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation or not. Maybe you can clarify.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I would like a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation to try.   ;D  I am sorry what I posted was confusing.   I was at the Weis supermarket after I was at market today and I found some Sargento LMPS mozzarella in a bag.  Weis supermarket had Maggio cheese products, but no mozzarellas.  I have to look at Giant to see what they have.  I don't know if the Sargento LMPS mozzarella will cut it or not for the cheese, but if it doesn't I can use it on a PJ cheesestick attempt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2013, 06:19:50 PM
Peter, Sammy, the grandson of Chick is the one who runs the Robbinsville location of Delorenzo's Tomato Pies.  The father, Gary (son in law of Chick) shut up shop in Trenton because it was getting too dangerous.  Last I heard, he was going to open up shop somewhere in PA.  Sammy was making pies for a good 10 to 15 years at Hudson street and I can verify that nothing has changed in terms of preparation and the way they make the pie.  I've been to both at least 20 times.

The Delorenzo's Pizza on Hamilton ave recently shut up shop in Trenton due to crime issues.  They have moved to Hamilton, the neighboring municipality (they even brought their old sign) and I haven't been able to get in as they have been packed.  I actually live about 8 minutes away from this one right now.

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

More recently, Papa's Tomato Pies, the oldest continually running pizzeria in the US is opening up a new location any day now in Robbinsville (a block away from Delorenzo's Tomato Pies).  The father is the one running the new shop while the son is going to take over at the Trenton shop.  I wouldn't be surprised to see the Trenton shop shut down soon though due to the crime in Trenton.

However, soon, there will be a good opportunity for those that are into trying this style of pizza to go to all three in safe neighborhoods which is nice.  We stopped going to Hudson St. 4 years ago after someone was shot in the alley way.  We've always avoided the Hamilton Ave Delorenzo's Pizza because of the danger in going to that neighborhood.  Papa's was literally in a warzone so we never bothered there either.  Kinda sad as we've watch a bunch of businesses that were extremely old and staples of a city for over 60 years to flee or shut up shop altogether.     

BenLee,

That was very interesting what you posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2013, 06:32:43 PM
BenLee,

Thank you for the update on the De Lorenzo businesses. Earlier today I read several articles about the crime problems in Trenton. I also read that Papa's was also opening up a new location in Robbinsville.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2013, 06:56:29 PM
Norma,

I wouldn't worry too much about the brand of mozzarella cheese. It is true that the various De Lorenzo businesses used the Maggio mozzarella cheese at different times but according to Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262) , Grande cheese was also used. What appears to be more important is that the cheese be used on pizzas rather sparingly. I will have more to say on this point when I post a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to consider.

There are still a few things I still don't know about the De Lorenzo's basic pizzas. For example, I don't know a typical dough ball weight and I don't know the two pizza sizes. The Robbinsville menu simply states that the pizzas are "small" and "large". At one time a member reported that the same dough ball weight was used for both sizes, and that created noticeable differences in the two end products (obviously the two crusts would have different thicknesses in such a case). My guess is that the two pizza sizes are 12" and 14". Interestingly, I dot recall that any member ever actually measured the two De Lorenzo pizza sizes and posted those numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 15, 2013, 09:07:52 PM
BenLee,

Thank you for the update on the three De Lorenzo businesses. Earlier today I read several articles about the crime problems in Trenton. I also read that Papa's was also opening up a new location in Robbinsville.

Peter

Yes, Trenton has been bad for 30 years, but these past 2, it's taken a huge turn for the worst.  They are about to hit their all time murder high and its only August.  I've only been to Trenton once this year and remember it vividly.  I had just left the court house and we were in my car and I kinda looked around and said to myself just driving through, you can literally see trouble developing at every corner.  I decided to take a quick exit onto the highway to get out.  It was a pretty good decision as I missed a murder on that exact street by about 5 minutes.  It was some A&E reality star's son that was killed. 

My other experience was a few years back, Delorenzo's on Hudson street did lunch reservations on Friday only.  My wife and my college roommate went.  In the alleyway there, someone was shot while we were inside eating.  That was a wrap for me. 

My father in law spoke to the owner of Barbero's bakery (a legendary bakery) and they shut up shop last year because their drivers would get robbed right outside the bakery consistently.

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 15, 2013, 09:09:03 PM
Peter,

Yes, I would like a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation to try.   ;D  I am sorry what I posted was confusing.   I was at the Weis supermarket after I was at market today and I found some Sargento LMPS mozzarella in a bag.  Weis supermarket had Maggio cheese products, but no mozzarellas.  I have to look at Giant to see what they have.  I don't know if the Sargento LMPS mozzarella will cut it or not for the cheese, but if it doesn't I can use it on a PJ cheesestick attempt. 

Norma

I believe Acme has the maggio cheese products, at least they did last time I was there last year.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2013, 10:46:11 PM
I believe Acme has the maggio cheese products, at least they did last time I was there last year.

BenLee,

Thanks for telling me that Acme supermarkets carries Maggio cheese products.  We used to have Acme supermarkets in our area, but they are gone now. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2013, 11:48:40 PM
I did call De Lorenzo's to see what size pizzas they sell, but they did not answer their phone, but I left a message to call me back as to what sizes of pizzas they sell.

pbergen posts in this thread http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-jersey/375043-anyone-ever-try-delorenzos-tomato-pies.html (http://www.city-data.com/forum/new-jersey/375043-anyone-ever-try-delorenzos-tomato-pies.html) that the main beef he had with the pies, (especially the Hudson St. location, was that the crust was sometimes overly crispy without having any chewiness).  I sure don't know what that means.

This is another article and slideshow of photos about De Lorenzo's Tomato Pies on Hudson St. closing.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/famed_delorenzos_hudson_street.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/famed_delorenzos_hudson_street.html)  I don't know if this was posted before or not.  The photo of the pizza on the wooden peel looks pretty big to me.

There is a video in this article that shows a dough balls which look rough when put in and smooth when they start to open them), the temperature of the oven (the oven looks like it was a Bari) and more.  It also can be viewed full screen.  http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/07/i_miss_the_people_not_the_grind_owners_of_now-closed_de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_trenton_talk_about_r.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/07/i_miss_the_people_not_the_grind_owners_of_now-closed_de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_trenton_talk_about_r.html) 

The same video can be viewed on YouTube too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk)


This video is of Gary Amico making the last tomato pie ever at De Lorenzo's on Hudson St. in Trenton, NJ. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6csqXXq1c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6csqXXq1c) 

Another video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9W1B75iOAg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9W1B75iOAg) 

Another video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE) 

There are more videos on YouTube of De Lorenzo's on Hudson St.

I guess at one time De Lorenzo's pizzas might have been made in a coal oven by Lippy's post on this forum.  http://mouthfulsfood.com/forums/index.php/topic/25078-delorenzos-tomato-pies-the-end/ (http://mouthfulsfood.com/forums/index.php/topic/25078-delorenzos-tomato-pies-the-end/) 

A few more photos.

http://planetprinceton.com/2012/01/17/photo-journal-time-for-one-last-tomato-pie/ (http://planetprinceton.com/2012/01/17/photo-journal-time-for-one-last-tomato-pie/) 

In this forum PIGMON posts on this thread the link here on the forum about the reverse engineering thread of De Lorenzo's. 

http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491 (http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=14491) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 08:31:06 AM
These are the the facebook photos at De Lorenzo's Pizza at https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos/photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos/photos_stream)  The other De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook photos are at  https://www.facebook.com/DeLorenzosTomatoPies/photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/DeLorenzosTomatoPies/photos_stream) 

If the STAR-LEDGER newspaper article is looked at it says the different De Lorenzo's locations pizzas really were not the same.

A few photos copied from the De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook page, including what the pizza dough looks like, and photos of what De Lorenzo's coal oven looked like before the fire.

I don't know how the De Lorenzo's pizza dough can be cloned/or tried to be cloned, if people might think the pizzas tasted differently at the different De Lorenzo's locations.  I read the same thing on Slice and elsewhere on the web. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 08:34:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 16, 2013, 09:56:35 AM
This is a good loking tomato pie and I'll bet that crust on the rim is excellent to bite into....I know you could duplicat this Norma.  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 10:03:55 AM
Norma,

One of the interesting things I observed from the videos and from the photos from the Robbinsville location is that it appears that but for the fancier digs at Robbinsville the Amicos went to great pains to recreate the Hudson Street setting as much as possible at the Robbinsville location, down to using the same large silver buckets for the sauce, the same Pyrex measuring cups and oil squeeze bottles, the same (or very similar) spoons and ladles and knives, the same thin-bladed wood peels, pizza serving trays, etc. Since the Robbinsville location uses Blodgett ovens, this leads me to believe that the selection of those ovens was intentional and that the ovens at Hudson Street were also Blodgett ovens. You mentioned Bari as an oven possibility but the ones shown in the videos and in earlier photos look to me to be Blodgett ovens, much like the old 1060 and 1000 Blodgett ovens such as shown at http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-blodgett-1060-pizza-ovens-/271258962409?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item3f284b49e9#ht_26wt_1320 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-blodgett-1060-pizza-ovens-/271258962409?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item3f284b49e9#ht_26wt_1320) and at http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blodgett-1000-Stone-Single-Stack-Pizza-Oven-Natural-Gas-Stainless-Steel-/221262969739?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item33844cfb8b#ht_121wt_1320 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blodgett-1000-Stone-Single-Stack-Pizza-Oven-Natural-Gas-Stainless-Steel-/221262969739?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item33844cfb8b#ht_121wt_1320). Walter (waltertore) has the 1000 Blodgetts so he might be able to confirm the brand if he sees this post.

With respect to the Bari item you noted, it looks to be a thermometer and not necessarily an indication that a Bari oven was used. I tried to read the thermometer setting in the video you posted, but I couldn't quite make out the value. If the gradations are in one-hundred degree increments, that would suggest a 550 degree F oven temperature. That is the temperature that was mentioned by one of our members over at the Trenton thread. If that temperature is correct, that would settle that matter.

The first Facebook link you posted is for Rick De Lorenzo's pizzeria. At the time of the move of that pizzeria to its new location, it was mentioned that the old ovens would make the move also, and the Facebook photos confirm that. BTW, when I worked on the reverse engineering and cloning project, I paid attention to as much information as I could about all of the De Lorenzo locations, but I concentrated more on the Hudson Street location because I had read that the original Hamilton location and the Hudson location did not produce identical pies.

An additional tidbit that I picked up from the videos is the use of the use of the end of the table or workbench and gravity to help open up dough balls to form skins. You can see it at 2:05 in the third video you cited and in the photo at the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3174_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3174_JPG.htm). Of course, that is not the only way to form a skin but it looks like just another example of something that moved from Hudson to Robbinsville. It is also clear from the Robbinsville website at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/ (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/) that the Amicos are trying to tie the old and new locations together.

I am trying not to make this an extension of the Trenton thread yet at the same time I am aware that the De Lorenzo pizzerias past and present made their name and mark with "tomato pies", which is the subject of this thread. So, depending on your results with a clone, it might make sense to cross link this thread with the Trenton thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html).

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 10:53:26 AM
Norma,

One of the interesting things I observed from the videos and from the photos from the Robbinsville location is that it appears that but for the fancier digs at Robbinsville the Amicos went to great pains to recreate the Hudson Street setting as much as possible at the Robbinsville location, down to using the same large silver buckets for the sauce, the same Pyrex measuring cups, the same (or very similar) spoons and ladles and knives, pizza serving trays, etc. Since the Robbinsville location uses Blodgett ovens, this leads me to believe that the selection of those ovens was intentional and that the ovens at Hudson Street were also Blodgett ovens. You mentioned Bari as an oven possibility but the ones shown in the videos and in earlier photos look to me to be Blodgett ovens, much like the old 1060 and 1000 Blodgett ovens such as shown at http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-blodgett-1060-pizza-ovens-/271258962409?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item3f284b49e9#ht_26wt_1320 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-blodgett-1060-pizza-ovens-/271258962409?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item3f284b49e9#ht_26wt_1320) and at http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blodgett-1000-Stone-Single-Stack-Pizza-Oven-Natural-Gas-Stainless-Steel-/221262969739?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item33844cfb8b#ht_121wt_1320 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Blodgett-1000-Stone-Single-Stack-Pizza-Oven-Natural-Gas-Stainless-Steel-/221262969739?pt=BI_Commercial_Ovens_Ranges&hash=item33844cfb8b#ht_121wt_1320). Walter (waltertore) has the 1000 Blodgetts so he might be able to confirm the brand if he sees this post.

With respect to the Bari item you noted, it looks to be a thermometer and not necessarily an indication that a Bari oven was used. I tried to read the thermometer setting in the video you posted, but I couldn't quite make out the value. If the gradations are in one-hundred degree increments, that would suggest a 550 degree F oven temperature. That is the temperature that was mentioned by one of our members over at the Trenton thread. If that temperature is correct, that would settle that matter.

The first Facebook link you posted is for Rick De Lorenzo's pizzeria. At the time of the move of that pizzeria to its new location, it was mentioned that the old ovens would make the move also, and the Facebook photos confirm that. BTW, when I worked on the reverse engineering and cloning project, I paid attention to as much information as I could about all of the De Lorenzo locations, but I concentrated more on the Hudson Street location because I had read that the original Hamilton location and the Hudson location did not produce identical pies.

An additional tidbit that I picked up from the videos is the use of the use of the end of the table or workbench and gravity to help open up dough balls to form skins. You can see it at 2:05 in the third video you cited and in the photo at the Robbinsville location at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3174_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3174_JPG.htm). Of course, that is not the only way to form a skin but it looks like just another example of something that moved from Hudson to Robbinsville. It is also clear from the Robbinsville website at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/ (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/) that the Amicos are trying to tie the old and new locations together.

I am trying not to make this an extension of the Trenton thread yet at the same time I am aware that the De Lorenzo pizzerias past and present made their name and mark with "tomato pies", which is the subject of this thread. So, depending on your results with a clone, it might make sense to cross link this thread with the Trenton thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html).

Peter


Peter,

I didn't observe from the videos and photo that is appears they use about the same basic things to make their pizzas.  You are more observant than I am. 

I only saw that Bari on the oven thermometer and couldn't make out if that was a Bari oven or not.  It would make sense if the oven temperature was at about 550 degrees F, but how does that translate to the longer bakes in some peoples opinions?  Do you think from all of those pizzas going in and out of the oven that is why it might take longer for them to bake?  I think I recall at Pizza Brain that they might also use a Blodgett oven and if think about it, those bakes were longer too. 

I wasn't observant enough either to pick up the additional tidbit you picked up about how they use the end of the table or workbench and gravity to help open up dough balls to form skins.  I can understand that the Amicos are trying to tie the old and new locations together. 

If you find a formulation for me to try and all depending on how it turns out I can understand about cross linking this thread with the Trenton thread.  I will that up to you to decide what to do.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 11:58:25 AM
I only saw that Bari on the oven thermometer and couldn't make out if that was a Bari oven or not.  It would make sense if the oven temperature was at about 550 degrees F, but how does that translate to the longer bakes in some peoples opinions?  Do you think from all of those pizzas going in and out of the oven that is why it might take longer for them to bake?  I think I recall at Pizza Brain that they might also use a Blodgett oven and if think about it, those bakes were longer too. 
Norma,

I can't honestly say that the bake temperature is actually around 550 degrees F. Also, depending on how many pizzas are in the oven at one time, the actual time it takes to bake a single pizza can possibly vary quite a bit, so that may account for the uncertainty on bake times. In the Trenton thread, I once speculated that De Lorenzo's at Hudson Street used two ovens to bake their pizzas as a way of controlling the production of the pizzas over both slack and peak times, moving pizzas from the top oven after an initial bake to the lower oven (or vice versa) to finish baking. Also, the pizza makers at De Lorenzo/Hudson often added more cheese, and sometimes more pizza sauce and even more olive/canola oil blend, at the time that the pizzas were moved to the lower oven. I think that this is a technique shown in the photos at the Robbinsville location. For example, look at the two photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3206_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3206_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3207_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3207_JPG.htm). Those photos are next to each other (that is, numbered consecutively) in the photo sequencing, and I believe that the pizzas shown in the two photos may be the same pizza. If I am correct on this point, note that the pizza goes from the top oven to the bottom oven after a partial first bake and that as the pizza goes into the bottom oven it has some additional shredded mozzarella cheese applied to it. Since the bottom oven has a new pizza baking in it, that can mean that a pizza can be started in the lower oven and later be moved to the upper oven. I had read about this two step process over at the Trenton thread but had not seen anything beyond member comments as evidence of that process.

What do you think?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 12:45:17 PM

What do you think?

Peter


Peter,

I will tell you more what I think after I get back from market today and have read over your post and links more, but another thing I wondered is how the original De Lorenzo's pizzas might have been when baked in their coal oven.  Do you think the drier environment of a coal oven somehow is why they might need to bake their pizzas on two different decks if they were trying to recreate the same kind of pizza they made in their coal oven?  I sure don't know if that makes any sense or not.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 03:52:10 PM
Norma,

In preparation for coming up with a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to use, can you tell me what cold fermentation period you plan to use, and also whether you have any flours with a protein content of around 12.9% or might be blended to achieve that value?  It doesn't matter if the flours are bleached or bromated. And are there any other requirements that have to be met?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 16, 2013, 03:59:11 PM

 Do you think the drier environment of a coal oven somehow is why they might need to bake their pizzas on two different decks if they were trying to recreate the same kind of pizza they made in their coal oven?  I sure don't know if that makes any sense or not.  :-\

Norma
I don't know a whole lot about these types of things but it sure makes a lot of sense to me Norma.  The bottom of the pizza gets hits twice with a nice hot, dry surface. You're pretty clever ma'am.  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 04:58:07 PM
Norma,

In preparation for coming up with a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to use, can you tell me what cold fermentation period you plan to use, and also whether you have any flours with a protein content of around 12.9% or might be blended to achieve that value?  It doesn't matter if the flours are bleached or bromated. And are there any other requirements that have to be met?

Peter

Peter,

I really don't know how long De Lorenzo's cold ferments their dough, but I will go with whatever you want me to for a cold fermentation period.  I have the Occident flour that is lower in protein at home and King Arthur flours, but I can purchase another flour at the supermarket if you think there is a better one to try or blend.

I can't really think of any other requirements that must be met right now.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 05:04:17 PM
I don't know a whole lot about these types of things but it sure makes a lot of sense to me Norma.  The bottom of the pizza gets hits twice with a nice hot, dry surface. You're pretty clever ma'am.  :chef:

Bob,

I sure don't know if that is right or not, but when visiting Totonno's pizza in Coney Island their pizzas were baked in a coal-fired oven.  I am just trying to figure out how De Lorzenzo's made about the same pizza in their deck ovens when they couldn't use their coal-fired oven anymore. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 05:16:35 PM
Norma,

I can't honestly say that the bake temperature is actually around 550 degrees F. Also, depending on how many pizzas are in the oven at one time, the actual time it takes to bake a single pizza can possibly vary quite a bit, so that may account for the uncertainty on bake times. In the Trenton thread, I once speculated that De Lorenzo's at Hudson Street used two ovens to bake their pizzas as a way of controlling the production of the pizzas over both slack and peak times, moving pizzas from the top oven after an initial bake to the lower oven (or vice versa) to finish baking. Also, the pizza makers at De Lorenzo/Hudson often added more cheese, and sometimes more pizza sauce and even more olive/canola oil blend, at the time that the pizzas were moved to the lower oven. I think that this is a technique shown in the photos at the Robbinsville location. For example, look at the two photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3206_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3206_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3207_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3207_JPG.htm). Those photos are next to each other (that is, numbered consecutively) in the photo sequencing, and I believe that the pizzas shown in the two photos may be the same pizza. If I am correct on this point, note that the pizza goes from the top oven to the bottom oven after a partial first bake and that as the pizza goes into the bottom oven it has some additional shredded mozzarella cheese applied to it. Since the bottom oven has a new pizza baking in it, that can mean that a pizza can be started in the lower oven and later be moved to the upper oven. I had read about this two step process over at the Trenton thread but had not seen anything beyond member comments as evidence of that process.

What do you think?

Peter

Peter,

To answer you more on your post at Reply 192 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273369.html#msg273369 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273369.html#msg273369) I think your speculating that the De Lorenzo's at Hudson St. might be right about using two ovens to bake their pizzas as a way of controlling the production of the pizzas over both slack and peak times.  I didn't catch that before that the pizza makers at De Lorenzo/Hudson often added more cheese, and sometimes more pizza sauce and even more olive/canola oil blend at the time that the pizzas were moved to the lower oven.  I also think you may be right about them using the same technique shown in the photos at the Robbinsville location.  Thanks for those two consecutive photos.  They do look like the same pizza to me.  Good thinking!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 06:01:48 PM
I really don't know how long De Lorenzo's cold ferments their dough, but I will go with whatever you want me to for a cold fermentation period.  I have the Occident flour that is lower in protein at home and King Arthur flours, but I can purchase another flour at the supermarket if you think there is a better one to try or blend.
Norma,

As best I can tell from the comments at the Trenton thread, the dough is cold fermented for at least one day and possibly more. I am assuming that you plan to make the pizza at market where you can use your deck oven, possibly in the two-step process that I earlier described. If that is correct, I would plan to come up with a formulation with an amount of yeast (IDY) for a one-day cold fermentation.

The issue of the type of flour used at De Lorenzo's has been discussed on several occasions at the Trenton thread. The flour that has been mentioned most is all-purpose flour, including the Pillsbury brand. At least one member said that the flour was not a high-gluten flour, but rather "regular flour". The most recent candidate, from Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142), is the "PILLSBURY BEST BAKERS PATENT HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR". That flour is a foodservice product but is not identified by General Mills, who sells that flour at the foodservice level, as a high-gluten flour even though the flour, at 12.9% protein, can be called a "high-gluten" flour since there is no industry standard as to what constitutes a high-gluten flour. Any "regular' or "all-purpose" Pillsbury flour would be sold at retail in small bags, not foodserevice size bags (e.g., 50-lb bags), through the J.M Smucker Company. None of the De Lorenzo pizzerias would be using small bags of retail all-purpose Pillsbury flour.

The General Mills foodservice Pillsbury flour--the only Pillsbury flour that I could find at the GM website--has the specs as shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pillsburys-best-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133294000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pillsburys-best-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133294000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type). For your purposes, unless I can find another Pillsbury flour that looks to be more appropriate, I plan to use the foodservice Pillsbury flour for the clone De Lorenzo dough formulation but suggest an alternative using a blend of other flours, possibly including the Occident flour. By any chance, do you have any high-gluten flour on hand?

For your information, I plan to modify the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060) for your use. You might recall that you used a version of that dough formulation at the Boardwalk thread. Hopefully, we will know what size pizzas Robbinsville makes before I come up with the new De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 06:39:54 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell from the comments at the Trenton thread, the dough is cold fermented for at least one day and possibly more. I am assuming that you plan to make the pizza at market where you can use your deck oven, possibly in the two-step process that I earlier described. If that is correct, I would plan to come up with a formulation with an amount of yeast (IDY) for a one-day cold fermentation.

The issue of the type of flour used at De Lorenzo's has been discussed on several occasions at the Trenton thread. The flour that has been mentioned most is all-purpose flour, including the Pillsbury brand. At least one member said that the flour was not a high-gluten flour, but rather "regular flour". The most recent candidate, from Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142), is the "PILLSBURY BEST BAKERS PATENT HIGH GLUTEN FLOUR". That flour is a foodservice product but is not identified by General Mills, who sells that flour at the foodservice level, as a high-gluten flour even though the flour, at 12.9% protein, can be called a "high-gluten" flour since there is no industry standard as to what constitutes a high-gluten flour. Any "regular' or "all-purpose" Pillsbury flour would be sold at retail in small bags, not foodserevice size bags (e.g., 50-lb bags), through the J.M Smucker Company. None of the De Lorenzo pizzerias would be using small bags of retail all-purpose Pillsbury flour.

The General Mills foodservice Pillsbury flour--the only Pillsbury flour that I could find at the GM website--has the specs as shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pillsburys-best-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133294000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/pillsburys-best-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133294000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type). For your purposes, unless I can find another Pillsbury flour that looks to be more appropriate, I plan to use the foodservice Pillsbury flour for the clone De Lorenzo dough formulation but suggest an alternative using a blend of other flours, possibly including the Occident flour. By any chance, do you have any high-gluten flour on hand?

For your information, I plan to modify the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060) for your use. You might recall that you used a version of that dough formulation at the Boardwalk thread. Hopefully, we will know what size pizzas Robbinsville makes before I come up with the new De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

Yes I do plan on making the pizza at market in my deck oven where I could use the two-step practice that you mentioned earlier.

I did look on the Trenton thread and saw what kinds of flour might be used for a De Lorenzo's dough.  I wonder if the General Mills foodservice Pillsbury's Best Flour is anything like the XXXX Patent flour Joe Kelley talked to me about. http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/xxxx-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/132942000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category)

I do have All Trumps bromated flour at home too. 

Thanks for telling me you plan to modify the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 for my use.  I do recall that I used a version of that dough formulation at the Boardwalk thread.  I did try to call De Lorenzo's again just a few minutes ago and the answering machine said, Hello, we are not available now”., the same message that I got last evening.  I left a call back number again.  I can call Trenton Bill and see if he recalls what sizes the De Lorenzo's pizzas are.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 07:04:44 PM
Norma,

I am aware of the Pillsbury 4X flours, having spoken before with a Pillsbury sales rep about the flours (one enriched and one unenriched). At 12.6% protein, it is possible to refer to them as high-gluten flours, as does King Arthur with its 12.7% KABF, but I ruled the Pillsbury 4X flours out of contention primarily because they do not include the words "Pillsbury Best" in their names. I perhaps should have been clearer when I said that there was only one Pillsbury flour at the GM website.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 07:26:55 PM
Norma,

After my last post I went back to the General Mills flour website where it dawned on me that they sell a flour called Best Bakers Patent Flour, with the specs shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category). It is possible that they omitted the word Pillsbury before the phrase Best Bakers Patent Flour. Even if that is the case, that flour is very similar in its specs to the Pillsbury Best flour I previously mentioned. The main differences are in the enrichment package and some mineral content.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 07:40:40 PM
Norma,

After my last post I went back to the General Mills flour website where it dawned on me that they sell a flour called Best Bakers Patent Flour, with the specs shown at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=breads-and-rolls&typ=Category). It is possible that they omitted the word Pillsbury before the phrase Best Bakers Patent Flour. Even if that is the case, that flour is very similar in its specs to the Pillsbury Best flour I previously mentioned. The main differences are in the enrichment package and some mineral content.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for finding the Best Bakers Patent flour at GM's professional baking solutions.  Do you want me ask Joey Kelley if it is a Pillsbury product/or anything else about that flour?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 07:52:24 PM
Thanks for finding the Best Bakers Patent flour at GM's professional baking solutions.  Do you want me ask Joey Kelley if it is a Pillsbury product/or anything else about that flour?
Norma,

For our purposes it shouldn't be necessary but it might help to ask Joey for future reference.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 09:32:07 PM
Norma,

For our purposes it shouldn't be necessary but it might help to ask Joey for future reference.

Peter

Peter,

Okay, I will ask Joe for any future references. 

I did call Trenton Bill and he isn't sure of the sizes of De Lorenzo's pizzas either.  He said he thought they might be 13" and 16" pizza, but he really didn't know.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 09:41:05 PM
Peter,

This blogger says De Lorenzo's pizza comes in a 14” size.  http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html (http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2013, 10:08:49 PM
This blogger says De Lorenzo's pizza comes in a 14” size.  http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html (http://www.johnandelana.com/blog/2012/2/17/capital-pizza-de-lorenzos-in-trenton-new-jersey.html)
Norma,

That information is for the old Hamilton location, not the old Hudson location. I would feel most comfortable if someone actually measured pizza sizes.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2013, 10:39:01 PM
Norma,

That information is for the old Hamilton location, not the old Hudson location. I would feel most comfortable if someone actually measured pizza sizes.

Peter

Peter,

I am still getting the De Lorenzo's locations mixed-up.  I will write a message to De Lorenzo's on facebook and see if they answer me what size pizzas the Hudson location had.  Maybe another member might pop-up with information on the sizes.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 17, 2013, 12:54:14 PM
These are the the facebook photos at De Lorenzo's Pizza at https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos/photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos/photos_stream)  The other De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook photos are at  https://www.facebook.com/DeLorenzosTomatoPies/photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/DeLorenzosTomatoPies/photos_stream) 

If the STAR-LEDGER newspaper article is looked at it says the different De Lorenzo's locations pizzas really were not the same.

A few photos copied from the De Lorenzo's Tomato Pie facebook page, including what the pizza dough looks like, and photos of what De Lorenzo's coal oven looked like before the fire.

I don't know how the De Lorenzo's pizza dough can be cloned/or tried to be cloned, if people might think the pizzas tasted differently at the different De Lorenzo's locations.  I read the same thing on Slice and elsewhere on the web. 

Norma

Delorenzo's Tomato Pies was started by "Chick" Delorenzo while Delorenzo's Pizza was started by Chick's brother.  They both worked at Papa's Tomato Pies when they were young.  The pies are different.  The dough is different.  I'd say Delorenzo's Pizza is closer to pizza than tomato pie, even though both put the tomatoes on top.  Delorenzo's Tomato Pies have chunks of tomatoes within the sauce while Delorenzo's Pizza is kinda sauce only.

I'd say the dough is an average hydration dough because it forms a cracker type crust out of the oven.  I'm guessing, average hydration and a bake at 550.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2013, 05:38:09 PM
Peter,

I sent a message to Rick DeLorenzo on facebook. I saw in his photos he worked at DeLorenzo's and lived in Trenton, NJ and also saw him working at DeLorenzo's on some of his facebook photos.

This is what I said:

Hi Rick, You don't know me, but I wondered if you could answer a question for me. Did you work at De Lorenzo's on Hudson St?  I wondered what size pizzas they sold at that location. I tried to call the new De Lorenzo's and they don't answer the phone. My friend from Trenton, NJ doesn't even recall right what size the pizzas were on Hudson St. and he did go there many times. Thanks, and sorry I bothered you.

This is what Rick replied to me.

Rick DeLorenzo
Hi , I never worked on Hudson St but I have to assume they had the same sizes as we do 14"AND 16". NO BOTHER

Is that good enough information?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2013, 06:18:02 PM
I sent a message to Rick DeLorenzo on facebook. I saw in his photos he worked at DeLorenzo's and lived in Trenton, NJ and also saw him working at DeLorenzo's on some of his facebook photos.

This is what I said:

Hi Rick, You don't know me, but I wondered if you could answer a question for me. Did you work at De Lorenzo's on Hudson St?  I wondered what size pizzas they sold at that location. I tried to call the new De Lorenzo's and they don't answer the phone. My friend from Trenton, NJ doesn't even recall right what size the pizzas were on Hudson St. and he did go there many times. Thanks, and sorry I bothered you.

This is what Rick replied to me.

Rick DeLorenzo
Hi , I never worked on Hudson St but I have to assume they had the same sizes as we do 14"AND 16". NO BOTHER

Is that good enough information?
Norma,

If that is the best we can get, we will have to live with it. I had read somewhere that at the Hudson De Lorenzo location the same size dough balls were used for the two pizza sizes. If the sizes are 14" and 16", the crusts characteristics will be different as a result but the amount of dough will have to be sufficient so that the thinner crust is not a cracker crust. I am thinking of a dough ball that weighs about 10 ounces to be able to make both sizes without the thinner crust being a cracker.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2013, 07:10:15 PM
Norma,

If that is the best we can get, we will have to live with it. I had read somewhere that at the Hudson De Lorenzo location the same size dough balls were used for the two pizza sizes. If the sizes are 14" and 16", the crusts characteristics will be different as a result but the amount of dough will have to be sufficient so that the thinner crust is not a cracker crust. I am thinking of a dough ball that weighs about 10 ounces to be able to make both sizes without the thinner crust being a cracker.

Peter

Peter,

Do you want me to send Rick a message on facebook and ask him if the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's location and other De Lorenzo's locations did use, or does still use the same size dough balls for the two different sizes of pizzas?

I can understand that if the same size dough ball is used there would be different crust characteristics. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2013, 07:13:31 PM
Do you want me to send Rick a message on facebook and ask him if the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's location and other De Lorenzo's locations did use, or does still use the same size dough balls for two different sizes of pizzas?
Norma,

Yes, that would help.

For your addtional information, according to this article, http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf), the Robbinsville location uses a 550 degrees F oven temperature and it take 10 minutes to bake the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2013, 07:25:22 PM
Norma,

Yes, that would help.

For your addtional information, according to this article, http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf), the Robbinsville location uses a 550 degrees F oven temperature and it take 10 minutes to bake the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Okay I will ask Rick.  There is no hurt in asking, even if I don't find out the answer.

I think that is a high temperature to bake for 10 minutes, but guess we will find out what happens.  Thanks for the link and the additional information.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 07:17:53 AM
I think that is a high temperature to bake for 10 minutes, but guess we will find out what happens.  Thanks for the link and the additional information.
Norma,

The bake time mentioned in the article I cited squares with what member bfx9 reported in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168) . Note that the pizza that bfx9 reported on went from the top oven to the lower oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 08:22:42 AM
Norma,

The bake time mentioned in the article I cited squares with what member bfx9 reported in Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168) . Note that the pizza that bfx9 reported on went from the top oven to the lower oven.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for link to the post from bfx9.  I see that squares with what you posted about the bake time and using the top oven first and then transferring the pizza to the lower oven.  I know my deck oven won't bake exactly like De Lorenzo's, but do know that pizzas bake differently on my top deck.

bfx9's post at Reply 174 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145236.html#msg145236) is also interesting in my opinion.  He posted that De Lorenzo's pizza dough was sold at Risoldi's market.  I guess I am a little to late for that.  :-D I also wonder what kind of machine was used to flatten the dough.   

BTW, Rick didn't answer me back on facebook yet, but DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies did answer me back late last evening in a message.

This is what I asked on Friday and what DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies answered back.
Me:
Hello, I have tried to call your pizzeria two times and left two messages, but no one answers the phone and no one answers me. I wanted to ask one question if you have time to answer it. The question is what sizes of pizzas did De Lorenzo's have at the old Hudson St. location? I was just curious and had a running bet with someone about the sizes.
 
DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies:
Hi Norma, sorry about not getting thru on the phone. The pies on hudson st. were small and large. Hope u win the bet.

I then said and asked late last evening.

Hello DeLorenzo's. I just wondered what sizes the two pizzas were. My friend said he thought they might have been 13" and 16", but I said I haven't heard of too many 13" pizzas and maybe the small pizzas were 14" and 16”. I also wanted to ask you one other question. I tried to come to DeLorenzo's when I was at my friends place in Hamilton about 2 months ago. He didn't know the one DeLorenzo's was closed down and we tried to go there. We then went to your new location, but that wasn't opened until 5:00 PM. We then went to where a DeLorenzo's was supposed to be open at the one supermarket, but another pizzeria has taken over. To get to the point I didn't get to try any of DelLorenzo's pizzas in that visit and never did. My friend who is in his 70's has lived in Hamilton most of his life and he has tried all of the DeLorenzo's pizzas. He told me one other thing that made me think a little and that is my next question. He told me that some of the DeLorenzo's places use the same size dough balls for both sizes of pizzas. Is that true? Sorry to bother you again, but I hope to get to your new location when I visit my friend later in the fall.
Thanks!

I will wait and see if I get another message from DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies.

Trenton Bill told me to come to Trenton this coming weekend to see if we can find out more about De Lorenzo's pizzas, but I told Bill I have to start getting stuff ready for an event I have to do outside at market. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 08:56:52 AM
Norma,

The Risoldi's matter is moot at this point since, as member BenLee recently told us at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214):

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

I think that you are getting the runaround from the folks at Robbinsville. The response you got reminds me of a time when I called a pizzeria whose pizza I was trying to recreate and where the two pizza sizes were said to be 'small' and 'large'. I asked the gal who answered the phone what the difference was in the two sizes. She answered "one is bigger than the other". Doh.

Maybe we should ask the gal who penned the negative article on Papa John's recently to write another article, this time on De Lorenzo Pies and how they won't tell anyone the sizes, in inches, of its pizzas and they won't even answer the phones and instead give a silly response that insults peoples' intelligence. People have the right to know how much pizza they are getting without having to go to De Lorenzo's with a ruler or tape measure. It is amazing to me that for an organization that has been around since 1947 no one seems to have noted anywhere in the public media what the two sizes of the pizzas are in inches. I searched for this one point and came up empty.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 11:01:00 AM
Norma,

The Risoldi's matter is moot at this point since, as member BenLee recently told us at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273214.html#msg273214):

The Delorenzo's Pizza location within Risoldi's has been shut down, I'm guessing because they moved their whole operation next door in the adjacent strip mall.  Also, it didn't seem many people came to the supermarket to get pizza.  Many didn't even know about it.

I think that you are getting the runaround from the folks at Robbinsville. The response you got reminds me of a time when I called a pizzeria whose pizza I was trying to recreate and where the two pizza sizes were said to be 'small' and 'large'. I asked the gal who answered the phone what the difference was in the two sizes. She answered "one is bigger than the other". Doh.

Maybe we should ask the gal who penned the negative article on Papa John's recently to write another article, this time on De Lorenzo Pies and how they won't tell anyone the sizes, in inches, of its pizzas and they won't even answer the phones and instead give a silly response that insults peoples' intelligence. People have the right to know how much pizza they are getting without having to go to De Lorenzo's with a ruler or tape measure. It is amazing to me that for an organization that has been around since 1947 no one seems to have noted anywhere in the public media what the two sizes of the pizzas are in inches. I searched for this one point and came up empty.

Peter

Peter,

Maybe, this is part of the rest of the story.  :-\ What do you think?

Rick DeLorenzo answered me in a message again on facebook. 

This is what I said and what Rick said.

Me:

Rick, Sorry to bother you again, but I had a question that my friend from Trenton asked me about. He said the same size dough balls are used for both sizes of pizzas, even though he could not recall what sizes the pizza were at Hudson St. I read on the web that there were differences in some of the crusts in De Lorenzo's pizzas. Was that from the same size dough ball being used for the two sizes of pizzas?

Rick replied:

No ! Two pizza sizes, two dough ball sizes. I own and run the DeLorenzo's Pizza on Sloan Ave. that opened on May 6th of this year. We were formerly located at 1007 Hamilton Ave. in Trenton for over 50 years. I also had the location inside of Risoldi's Market which i closed in February of this year. My cousin owns DeLorenzo's Tomato Pie in Robbinsville. They were formerly located on Hudson St. in Trenton. Check out our facebook page ,DeLorenzos Pizza and our website delospizza.com  for more info.

Do you have any other questions you want me to ask Rick that aren't too suspicious?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 11:26:51 AM
Norma,

I have read reports, even an occasional one quoting Rick De Lorenzo, that both sides of the De Lorenzo family were on good terms. However, they were still competitors and often the competition between family members can be more fierce that between strangers. Because I am the trust and verify sort of person, I would prefer to get the information we are looking for from the horse's mouth--someone in the know and affiliated with Robbinsville or the former De Lorenzo Pies. I will mention, however, that the idea of a one-size-fits-all dough ball came from a forum member at the Trenton thread, not from some published source, such as an article, review, etc.

At this point, I am inclined to think along the lines of two dough balls weights. Or maybe I can also come up with a one-size-fits-all dough ball. These problems are usually solved by making different weights of dough balls and different size pizzas until the best combination is identified. However, this can take some time to do and, even then, since you have never had a De Lorenzo pie, you will need someone else who is familiar with the De Lorenzo pies test the final clone dough formulation to verify that you have succeeded with the clone. It may even well turn out in your case that the De Lorenzo clone "Trenton" pie is not to your liking and is unlikely to be remedied simply by knowing the two pizza sizes used at Robbinsviille/Hudson.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 11:38:55 AM
Norma,

I have read reports, even an occasional one quoting Rick De Lorenzo, that both sides of the De Lorenzo family were on good terms. However, they were still competitors and often the competition between family members can be more fierce that between strangers. Because I am the trust and verify sort of person, I would prefer to get the information we are looking for from the horse's mouth--someone in the know and affiliated with Robbinsville or the former De Lorenzo Pies. I will mention, however, that the idea of a one-size-fits-all dough ball came from a forum member at the Trenton thread, not from some published source, such as an article, review, etc.

At this point, I am inclined to think along the lines of two dough balls weights. Or maybe I can also come up with a one-size-fits-all dough ball. These problems are usually solved by making different weights of dough balls and different size pizzas until the best combination is identified. However, this can take some time to do and, even then, since you have never had a De Lorenzo pie, you will need someone else who is familiar with the De Lorenzo pies test the final clone dough formulation to verify that you have succeeded with the clone. It may even well turn out in your case that the De Lorenzo clone "Trenton" pie is not to your liking and is unlikely to be remedied simply by knowing the two pizza sizes used at Robbinsviille/Hudson.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand that Rick and the Robbinsville De Lorenzo's are still competitors and often there is competition between family members.  I also know you are the trust and verify sort of person and will dig until you know the truth. 

I will leave it up to you what you want to do.  If you want to wait a week or more that is okay with me.  I know I have never eaten any De Lorenzo's pizzas and would need other members to try out a formulation if you set one forth.  I agree that I might not even like a De Lorenzo's real pizza when I get to taste one.  Trenton Bill told me De Lorenzo's pizzas are really good, but not as good as Joey's.   Bill and I could have different tastes though.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 04:56:40 PM
I can understand that Rick and the Robbinsville De Lorenzo's are still competitors and often there is competition between family members.  I also know you are the trust and verify sort of person and will dig until you know the truth. 

I will leave it up to you what you want to do.  If you want to wait a week or more that is okay with me.  I know I have never eaten any De Lorenzo's pizzas and would need other members to try out a formulation if you set one forth.  I agree that I might not even like a De Lorenzo's real pizza when I get to taste one.  Trenton Bill told me De Lorenzo's pizzas are really good, but not as good as Joey's.   Bill and I could have different tastes though.
Norma,

Finally!! I now know the two pizza sizes at Robbinsville. They are 14" and 16". See http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html) .

If you don't mind, I'd like to buy a little more time. There are a few unanswered questions that I would like to research. One of the areas is the yeast that De Lorenzo's uses. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, a member (bfx9) commented that there was a sourness to the De Lorenzo crust and that there was yeast flavor. Also, a server at Robbinsville commented that the yeast was a product that might have been specially prepared for Robbinsville. I bring all this up now because member MTPIZZA insisted at the start of the Trenton thread that the Hudson crust was sourdough based. That led me down the path of using a natural sourdough culture and also the old dough method to come up with De Lorenzo clones. I still don't think that these methods are being used but it is possible that they are using something like dead yeast or maybe a special beer yeast or something like that. Allegedly, Pizzeria Regina in Massachusetts used the latter product but I was not able to identify a source.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 07:37:47 PM
Norma,

Finally!! I now know the two pizza sizes at Robbinsville. They are 14" and 16". See http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html) .

If you don't mind, I'd like to buy a little more time. There are a few unanswered questions that I would like to research. One of the areas is the yeast that De Lorenzo's uses. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, a member (bfx9) commented that there was a sourness to the De Lorenzo crust and that there was yeast flavor. Also, a server at Robbinsville commented that the yeast was a product that might have been specially prepared for Robbinsville. I bring all this up now because member MTPIZZA insisted at the start of the Trenton thread that the Hudson crust was sourdough based. That led me down the path of using a natural sourdough culture and also the old dough method to come up with De Lorenzo clones. I still don't think that these methods are being used but it is possible that they are using something like dead yeast or maybe a special beer yeast or something like that. Allegedly, Pizzeria Regina in Massachusetts used the latter product but I was not able to identify a source.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for the link to the article about what two sizes the pizzas are at Robbinville.  Didn't you believe Rick De Lorenzo when he told me those were the sizes of the pizzas since he doesn't work at the Robbinville location and since their might be rivalry between the De Lorenzo's?

You can buy as much time as you want and research all unanswered questions you have.  I would be interested in the kind of yeast the Robbinville's location uses too.  I did sent another message to Rick and kind of asked about yeast in a round about way in telling him I also make pizzas at home and said my friend from Trenton and I purchased the BS to make pizzas at home.  I also said the pizza man at the supermarket gave me tips on making a pizza like he does. 

When I talked to Trenton Bill different times he told me the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's and the other De Lorenzo's locations really don't have a special taste in the crust.  He said it was the whole pizza that is good, but the crust is hard/or crispy in a different way.  I imagine that would come from the fairly long bakes at the higher temperatures and because the crust is so thin.  I guess I will find out when I get to go to the Robbinville De Lorenzo's.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 08:41:24 PM
Norma,

I went back to the Robbinsville photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm) to study them more closely in search of more clues. I think I have at least developed an understanding of the workstation configuration and the related workflow.

In general, it looks like there are three workstations, two at the ends and a central work area. The central work area is different than the workstations on each side in that it is a slab of marble or granite or other similar material. Above the stone slab are two printers that apparently print out the tickets. These are ultimately distributed to the workers at the workstations on each side. Below the stone slab is where the trays of dough balls are held. So the dough balls are centrally located and accessible by the workers at the two end workstations.

Each of the two workstations have pretty much the same equipment and tools. These include the following: (a) two stacked Blodgett ovens; (b) a large silver bucket with pizza sauce and a ladle; (c) a glass Pyrex measuring cup with a spoon; (d) a bench knife and metal putty knife or spatula; (e) squeeze bottles containing oil or oil blend; (f) large and small bowls for holding bench flour and/or cornmeal; (g) a metal container with sausage; (h) various containers for the shredded cheese and toppings; (i) a large, single wooden make peel of light color and large enough to make both sizes (14" and 16") of pizzas; (j) aluminum serving trays at the distal ends of the two workstations and large enough to serve both size pizzas; and (k) knives (not pizza wheels) at the distal ends of the two workstations. In addition to the foregoing, there is at least one thin-bladed wooden peel at each workstation that is used to remove pizzas from the ovens or to move the pizzas around within the ovens and also between ovens. Those peels are smaller than the make peels and are of a darker color. When not in use, those peels are stored above the ovens.

As I see it, in normal, non-peak times, pizzas can be made at one or both of the two workstations, and the finished pizzas are put on the aluminum serving trays at the ends of the two workstations. There, the pizzas are sliced using the collocated knives. The slicing is done by the servers. They are the guys shown in the photos with the neckties.

At busy times, such as shown by the large crowd of diners in the photos, prep work can be done by a worker situated at the central area. That worker can make skins of the proper sizes on the stone slab (the edge of which can allow skins to be formed by using gravity as previously mentioned). Presumably the skins formed by that worker are passed on to the workers at the end workstations along with the corresponding tickets. The workers at the two workstation dress and bake the pizzas and deliver them to the ends of the two workstations to be cut by the servers. It is also possible that the worker at the central work area only partially opens up the dough balls and hands off the partially formed skins to the workers at the workstations to open up to their full size before dressing.

What is still not clear from the photos, such as the one at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm), is if there are two dough ball sizes. It looks like that might be the case, but I can't say for sure.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 18, 2013, 09:19:55 PM
Thank you for the link to the article about what two sizes the pizzas are at Robbinville.  Didn't you believe Rick De Lorenzo when he told me those were the sizes of the pizzas since he doesn't work at the Robbinville location and since their might be rivalry between the De Lorenzo's?
Norma,

I had no way of knowing whether Rick was telling the truth about his cousins. That is why I preferred to get the information on pizza sizes from the folks at Robbinsville. It did not help that they were not forthcoming, given that pizza sizes are not trade secrets and pizzas can be easily measured. It took someone like the writer of the article I referenced to get the answer. I assume that their article is correct. But, even then, if I ever found myself at the Robinsville De Lorenzo Pies location, I would measure their pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 10:02:36 PM
Norma,

I went back to the Robbinsville photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm) to study them more closely in search of more clues. I think I have at least developed an understanding of the workstation configuration and the related workflow.

In general, it looks like there are three workstations, two at the ends and a central work area. The central work area is different than the workstations on each side in that it is a slab of marble or granite or other similar material. Above the stone slab are two printers that apparently print out the tickets. These are ultimately distributed to the workers at the workstations on each side. Below the stone slab is where the trays of dough balls are held. So the dough balls are centrally located and accessible by the workers at the two end workstations.

Each of the two workstations have pretty much the same equipment and tools. These include the following: (a) two stacked Blodgett ovens; (b) a large silver bucket with pizza sauce and a ladle; (c) a glass Pyrex measuring cup with a spoon; (d) a bench knife and metal putty knife or spatula; (e) squeeze bottles containing oil or oil blend; (f) large and small bowls for holding bench flour and/or cornmeal; (g) a metal container with sausage; (h) various containers for the shredded cheese and toppings; (i) a large, single wooden make peel of light color and large enough to make both sizes (14" and 16") of pizzas; (j) aluminum serving trays at the distal ends of the two workstations and large enough to serve both size pizzas; and (k) knives (not pizza wheels) at the distal ends of the two workstations. In addition to the foregoing, there is at least one thin-bladed wooden peel at each workstation that is used to remove pizzas from the ovens or to move the pizzas around within the ovens and also between ovens. Those peels are smaller than the make peels and are of a darker color. When not in use, those peels are stored above the ovens.

As I see it, in normal, non-peak times, pizzas can be made at one or both of the two workstations, and the finished pizzas are put on the aluminum serving trays at the ends of the two workstations. There, the pizzas are sliced using the collocated knives. The slicing is done by the servers. They are the guys shown in the photos with the neckties.

At busy times, such as shown by the large crowd of diners in the photos, prep work can be done by a worker situated at the central area. That worker can make skins of the proper sizes on the stone slab (the edge of which can allow skins to be formed by using gravity as previously mentioned). Presumably the skins formed by that worker are passed on to the workers at the end workstations along with the corresponding tickets. The workers at the two workstation dress and bake the pizzas and deliver them to the ends of the two workstations to be cut by the servers.

What is still not clear from the photos, such as the one at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm), is if there are two dough ball sizes. It looks like that might be the case, but I can't say for sure.

Peter

Peter,

You are sure doing a full-scale investigation of those Robbinsville photos.  ;D Thanks for posting all that you saw and noted in those photos.  It is interesting what you noted from those photos. 

I see what you mean from you last link about the dough ball sizes.  I can't make out if they are different sizes or not.

I am friends on facebook with Anthony Scillia.  He is one of the members of Men Who Dine.  Do you want me to ask him if he remembers anything special about De Lorenzo's crust when he visited De Lorenzo's on Hudson St?  http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/16011466338/tomato-pie-lives-post-delos (http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/16011466338/tomato-pie-lives-post-delos)  I am also friends with Scott Wiener on facebook if you have any questions for him about that visit to De Lorenzo's on Hudson. http://madblatter.tumblr.com/post/45759200545/trenton-tomato-pie-lives-on-after-delorenzos-closes#notes (http://madblatter.tumblr.com/post/45759200545/trenton-tomato-pie-lives-on-after-delorenzos-closes#notes)  Scott Wiener has been know to pull out rulers at times to measure pizzas.  I also know Paulie Gee visited De Lorenzo's on Hudson St.  I am also friends with him on facebook.  Maybe Paulie remembers something special about the crust in how it tasted.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
Norma,

I had no way of knowing whether Rick was telling the truth about his cousins. That is why I preferred to get the information on pizza sizes from the folks at Robbinsville. It did not help that they were not forthcoming, given that pizza sizes are not trade secrets and pizzas can be easily measured. It took someone like the writer of the article I referenced to get the answer. I assume that their article is correct. But, even then, if I ever found myself at the Robinsville De Lorenzo Pies location, I would measure their pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I have no way of knowing whether Rick was telling the truth about his cousins either, but at least he did answer me in sizes of the pizzas.  I will wait and see if De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville answers me again.  When I get to the Robbinsville location I will take a ruler along, even though people might look at me strangely.   :-D  That isn't the weirdest thing I have done so far. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2013, 11:10:04 PM
Peter,

Did you read this article?  http://www.foodgps.com/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-trenton-vs-robbinsville/ (http://www.foodgps.com/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-trenton-vs-robbinsville/) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 19, 2013, 08:38:33 AM
Did you read this article?  http://www.foodgps.com/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-trenton-vs-robbinsville/ (http://www.foodgps.com/de-lorenzos-tomato-pies-trenton-vs-robbinsville/) 
Norma,

Yes, I did see that article. It was interesting in that it compared the old and new De Lorenzo locations (Hudson and Robbinsville) while they were both in operation and using the same dough, cheese and sauce. As I noted previously, I believe that the new location was trying to replicate as much as possible of the old location but for the new ovens and more modern, expanded setting. It was also interesting to note the comment about the NJ tomatoes being inconsistent.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2013, 10:14:26 AM
Norma,

Yes, I did see that article. It was interesting in that it compared the old and new De Lorenzo locations (Hudson and Robbinsville) while they were both in operation and using the same dough, cheese and sauce. As I noted previously, I believe that the new location was trying to replicate as much as possible of the old location but for the new ovens and more modern, expanded setting. It was also interesting to note the comment about the NJ tomatoes being inconsistent.

Peter

Peter,

I thought you would have seen that article.  I thought that article was interesting too in that it compared the two De Lorenzo locations while they both were in operation.  I also thought that comment was interesting about the NJ tomatoes being inconsistent.

I did send Anthony Scillia the man that is in the group “men that dine” a message on facebook, partically asking about how the crust tasted and wanted to see what he thought if they might have baked the pizzas in two decks.  Anthony has tried pizzas all over NY and NJ alone, with his wife, or with the “men that dine” group.  This is what Anthony replied to me.

I agree that as a whole the pizza is tasty. The crust alone is basic yet crispy. I didn't see them making the pizza. Scott didn't measure that I can remember. I've only ever been to the one on Hudson not to the other location yet. It was almost 3 years ago that they closed.

I also sent Scott Wiener some questions on facebook in a message about the time “the men who dine” and Scott went to De Lorenzo's on Hudson.  This is what he said. 

hey Norma! Delo's on Hudson I think made 14" pies. Maybe 16" max but probably 14. You can call Delo's in Robbinsville and ask for Sam, he's the son and knows all the details. Definitely oil in the dough. Agree that crust was just OK but nice texture. I remember them using a single Blodget deck oven around 550. Hamilton Delo's not as good as Hudson/Robbinsville. Send me your email or email me at [email protected] and I'll send you some photos! I just found a bunch of good ones including oven, temp, etc. We shall solve this riddle!!!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 19, 2013, 10:49:46 AM
I wouldn't call the Delorenzo's operations competitors.  Both have loyal customer bases and are packed every night.  Their businesses are saturated with customers.  From my understanding, the two families don't really have much of a relationship at all. 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 19, 2013, 12:30:24 PM
You are sure doing a full-scale investigation of those Robbinsville photos.  ;D Thanks for posting all that you saw and noted in those photos.  It is interesting what you noted from those photos.
Norma,

To add to what I reported from my study of the photos, one of our members, MTPIZZA, reported some time ago in the Trenton thread  that De Lorenzo's put semolina on the bottoms of the dough boxes into which the dough balls were placed and that the semolina side always became the bottoms of the pizzas. I looked for the use of the semolina in the dough boxes and maybe the photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm) show that. But I can't be sure. Also, from later reports, it appears that it was not semolina that was used but rather cornmeal. That cornmeal was described as being very light in color and with a fine grind. The latter is what raised doubts in my mind what was in the two different sized bowls in the workstations. My original thinking was that maybe the two bowls contained flour for dusting the dough balls, possibly the larger bowl for larger dough balls and the smaller one for smaller dough balls. In this vein, please take a look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm) and tell me whether you think the dough balls shown below the stone slab in the exposed top dough box look bigger than the ones resting at the back of the stone slab?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 19, 2013, 05:19:31 PM
I remember it tasting like Maggio Mozzarella, but we saw Sargento bags at Hudson ave one day.
BenLee,

Did you mean Sorrento instead of Sargento?

Reply 133 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797)

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2013, 05:57:33 PM
Norma,

To add to what I reported from my study of the photos, one of our members, MTPIZZA, reported some time ago in the Trenton thread  that De Lorenzo's put semolina on the bottoms of the dough boxes into which the dough balls were placed and that the semolina side always became the bottoms of the pizzas. I looked for the use of the semolina in the dough boxes and maybe the photos at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm) and http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm) show that. But I can't be sure. Also, from later reports, it appears that it was not semolina that was used but rather cornmeal. That cornmeal was described as being very light in color and with a fine grind. The latter is what raised doubts in my mind what was in the two different sized bowls in the workstations. My original thinking was that maybe the two bowls contained flour for dusting the dough balls, possibly the larger bowl for larger dough balls and the smaller one for smaller dough balls. In this vein, please take a look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm) and tell me whether you think the dough balls shown below the stone slab in the exposed top dough box look bigger than the ones resting at the back of the stone slab?

Peter

Peter,

I recall that MTPIZZA reported some time ago in the Trenton thread that De Lorezno's put semolina on the bottoms of the dough boxes into which the dough balls were placed and that the semolina side always became the bottoms of the pizzas.  I also think the photos you linked to do show semolina.  I wonder how it could be cornmeal, but you might be right.  I would think semolina would have been used more than cornmeal years ago. 

It is hard for me to be able to see if those dough balls are different sizes in the link you gave.  It could be the way the photo was taken that they might appear to be different sizes.  If the next consecutive photo is looked at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3162_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3162_JPG.htm)  it appears to my eyes that they are all the same sizes.  Those photos were a promotional Shoot by Kraml Design, so I would not think they would show different size dough balls, but I could be wrong. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 19, 2013, 06:10:07 PM
Norma,

My comment on the cornmeal came From Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168) .However, that doesn't mean the server got it right even though he was a dough maker.

Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142) also talks about the cornmeal.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2013, 06:40:23 PM
Norma,

My comment on the cornmeal came From Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168.html#msg145168.)

However, that doesn't mean the server got it wrong even though he was a dough maker.

Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142) also talks about the cornmeal.

Peter

Peter,

Your first link didn't take me to Reply 172, but I saw Reply 172.

I see what you mean by what  bfx9 posted though about the cornmeal in Reply 176. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2013, 06:41:17 PM
This was posted by pauliegee123 today.  http://instagram.com/p/dNfKtVlu9I/ (http://instagram.com/p/dNfKtVlu9I/)  I am glad I got to eat at the old Papa's Tomato Pies.  Now Pa Pa's Tomato Pies has moved to Robbinsville too.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 19, 2013, 07:48:03 PM
These are the four photos Scott Wiener sent me in a email tonight of Delo's at Hudson.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 19, 2013, 08:13:29 PM
BenLee,

Did you mean Sorrento instead of Sargento?

Reply 133 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797)

Peter

Now, that you mention it, I have no idea.  I'm actually dyslexic so I wouldn't trust what I read to say one or the other.  I have to read everything twice before I get it right.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2013, 08:53:40 PM
Norma,

As part of my ongoing research, I found this eGullet thread on De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville: http://forums.egullet.org/topic/111573-big-changes-at-delorenzos-in-trenton/ (http://forums.egullet.org/topic/111573-big-changes-at-delorenzos-in-trenton/). What is most noteworthy about this thread is the reference to the "Pilsbury's bakers best flour". I believe that flour is the one I previously mentioned and found at the GM website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category). I also believe that JoeyBagadonuts meant that same flour, but with a somewhat different name (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent High Gluten Flour), in his post at Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142). As previously mentioned, that flour has a protein content of 12.9%. In your case, a blend of the Kyrol (14%) and Occident (12.2%) flours should make a good match, and it will be both bleached and bromated, just like the Pillsbury flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 20, 2013, 09:09:10 PM
Now, that you mention it, I have no idea.  I'm actually dyslexic so I wouldn't trust what I read to say one or the other.  I have to read everything twice before I get it right.

My wife said the bags had a pink logo, if that helps.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2013, 09:54:39 PM
My wife said the bags had a pink logo, if that helps.
BenLee,

As between Sorrento and Sargento, I would pick Sorrento because it has a very large foodservice division. Sargento has a foodservice division but it does not place high in the foodservice pecking order. It is very strong in the retail cheese business.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 20, 2013, 10:23:25 PM
Norma,

As part of my ongoing research, I found this eGullet thread on De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville: http://forums.egullet.org/topic/111573-big-changes-at-delorenzos-in-trenton/ (http://forums.egullet.org/topic/111573-big-changes-at-delorenzos-in-trenton/). What is most noteworthy about this thread is the reference to the "Pilsbury's bakers best flour". I believe that flour is the one I previously mentioned and found at the GM website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category). I also believe that JoeyBagadonuts meant that same flour, but with a somewhat different name (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent High Gluten Flour), in his post at Reply 176 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg167142.html#msg167142). As previously mentioned, that flour has a protein content of 12.9%. In your case, a blend of the Kyrol (14%) and Occident (12.2%) flours should make a good match, and it will be both bleached and bromated, just like the Pillsbury flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing more research!  That is an interesting thread on egullet.  I did see something else about De Lorenzo's on egullet, but not that thread. 

Besides Jeff L positng on the egullet forum about the Pillsbury's Baker Best flour, he also posts that they do use Maggio commerical size cheese and the redpack/6-in-1 tomato sauce blend.  Then Rick Pawlak posts that he saw Sorrento mozzarellla at the Robbinsville location and was surprised it was a consumer brand. 

Trenton Bill told me he knows who is the distributor of the Pillsbury flour that the Robbinsville De Lorenzo's location gets there flour from because he talks to that distributor sometimes, but I forgot what the name of the distributor is.

I was busy today and had to put some pizzas in my top deck oven, besides the bottom deck of my oven. The pizzas then were transferred to the bottom deck when the ones on the bottom deck were baked.  Those transferred pies did bake differently and had more of a crispy bottom.

The only Kyrol flour I have is old and all I use that for is bench flour. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 06:23:49 AM
Norma,

I did see the Pawlek eGullet post but didn't comment on it since it was over five years old. I believe that Robbinsville is now using Grande cheese. But it is stil good to know that other cheeses have worked. It also looks like a 6-in-1/RedPack combo is a viable one. And maybe we have finally zeroed in on the type and brand of flour.

Do you have any other flour with a protein content above 12.2%? If not, for now you might use the Kyrol for your test.

I have also been researching olive oils. I have read several articles that talk about De Lorenzo drizzling olive oil on their pizzas, and some of the photos and videos show some type of oil being swirled onto the pizzas using squeeze bottles or an oil can, but we have no idea as to the actual type of oil or brand used. It might even be a blend, as was previously mentioned by one of our members. I mention the oil because I wonder whether the same oil, or blend, is used in the dough as on the pizzas. Logically, it would seem to make sense to use only one type of oil, not two. And since olive oil is perhaps the best type of oil to put on a pizza, for taste reasons, I am inclined to believe that De Lorenzo's uses olive oil or an olive oil blend.

In the above vein, I studied the Robbinsville photos with the oil matter specifically in mind. Just from the color of the oil in the squeeze bottle containers, I would say that it is not soybean oil or canola oil. They are very light in color. The De Lorenzo oil also is not green or golden in color either, as are many olive oils. To my eye, the De Lorenzo oil, or blend, seems to match up best with a pomace olive oil. That is a type of oil that a foodservice firm would carry. When I have a chance today, I will post up links to a few photos that show pomace olive oils that look to my eye to be of the same color as the De Lorenzo oil.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 07:35:21 AM
Norma,

Here are a few links that show various brands of olive pomace oils. For color comparison purposes, I used the Robbinsville photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm).

http://img.21food.com/img/product/2010/6/14/olivelinecn-23360310.jpg (http://img.21food.com/img/product/2010/6/14/olivelinecn-23360310.jpg)

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=COirvPOxjrkCFcFj7AodmDAAYQ (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=COirvPOxjrkCFcFj7AodmDAAYQ)

http://www.pathosolives.co.uk/images/products/Olive-Pomace-Oil-5L-Barrel.jpg (http://www.pathosolives.co.uk/images/products/Olive-Pomace-Oil-5L-Barrel.jpg)

http://www.amway.in/Images/products/2013024115054-pri-olive-big.jpg (http://www.amway.in/Images/products/2013024115054-pri-olive-big.jpg)

The above links are by no means exhaustive. If you do a Google Image search on olive pomace oil, you will find many more examples of olive pomace oils with good color matches. You will also see the broad range of olive pomace oils.

I might add that pomace oils can come in different colors, from light green to almost brown, and can be made from olives from many different countries. Since olive pomace oil is not the first press, and since olive pomace oils are usually processed to provide a fairly neutral flavor, some producers add a high quality olive oil to produce a more flavorful product. The advantage to end users is primarily cost but with perceived health benefits as compared with other oils. I recall privately advising two pizza operators who were looking to cut costs, but still use an olive oil, to switch to olive pomace oils. They did so and reported back that they could not tell the difference. They were using the olive pomace oil in their doughs but I think they should also work on top of a pizza. I have never used olive pomace oil personally (it is not a supermarket product) so I can't speak from personal knowledge. However, for your purposes, I would use a quality olive oil, either alone or in an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 08:07:44 AM
Norma,

I did see the Pawlek eGullet post but didn't comment on it since it was over five years old. I believe that Robbinsville is now using Grande cheese. But it is stil good to know that other cheeses have worked. It also looks like a 6-in-1/RedPack combo is a viable one. And maybe we have finally zeroed in on the type and brand of flour.

Do you have any other flour with a protein content above 12.2%? If not, for now you might use the Kyrol for your test.

I have also been researching olive oils. I have read several articles that talk about De Lorenzo drizzling olive oil on their pizzas, and some of the photos and videos show some type of oil being swirled onto the pizzas using squeeze bottles or an oil can, but we have no idea as to the actual type of oil or brand used. It might even be a blend, as was previously mentioned by one of our members. I mention the oil because I wonder whether the same oil, or blend, is used in the dough as on the pizzas. Logically, it would seem to make sense to use only one type of oil, not two. And since olive oil is perhaps the best type of oil to put on a pizza, for taste reasons, I am inclined to believe that De Lorenzo's uses olive oil or an olive oil blend.

In the above vein, I studied the Robbinsville photos with the oil matter specifically in mind. Just from the color of the oil in the squeeze bottle containers, I would say that it is not soybean oil or canola oil. They are very light in color. The De Lorenzo oil also is not green or golden in color either, as are many olive oils. To my eye, the De Lorenzo oil, or blend, seems to match up best with a pomace olive oil. That is a type of oil that a foodservice firm would carry. When I have a chance today, I will post up links to a few photos that show pomace olive oils that look to my eye to be of the same color as the De Lorenzo oil.

Peter

Norma,

Here are a few links that show various brands of olive pomace oils. For color comparison purposes, I used the Robbinsville photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3161_JPG.htm).

http://img.21food.com/img/product/2010/6/14/olivelinecn-23360310.jpg (http://img.21food.com/img/product/2010/6/14/olivelinecn-23360310.jpg)

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=COirvPOxjrkCFcFj7AodmDAAYQ (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=GoogleShopping&gclid=COirvPOxjrkCFcFj7AodmDAAYQ)

http://www.pathosolives.co.uk/images/products/Olive-Pomace-Oil-5L-Barrel.jpg (http://www.pathosolives.co.uk/images/products/Olive-Pomace-Oil-5L-Barrel.jpg)

http://www.amway.in/Images/products/2013024115054-pri-olive-big.jpg (http://www.amway.in/Images/products/2013024115054-pri-olive-big.jpg)

The above links are by no means exhaustive. If you do a Google Image search on olive pomace oil, you will find many more examples of olive pomace oils with good color matches. You will also see the broad range of olive pomace oils.

I might add that pomace oils can come in different colors, from light green to almost brown, and can be made from olives from many different countries. Since olive pomace oil is not the first press, and since olive pomace oils are usually processed to provide a fairly neutral flavor, some producers add a high quality olive oil to produce a more flavorful product. The advantage to end users is primarily cost but with perceived health benefits as compared with other oils. I recall privately advising two pizza operators who were looking to cut costs, but still use an olive oil, to switch to olive pomace oils. They did so and reported back that they could not tell the difference. They were using the olive pomace oil in their doughs but I think they should also work on top of a pizza. I have never used olive pomace oil personally (it is not a supermarket product) so I can't speak from personal knowledge. However, for your purposes, I would use a quality olive oil, either alone or in an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend.

Peter

Peter,

What makes you believe that the Robbinsville location is now using Grande cheese?  Did someone report that other than the one person that mentioned that on the Trenton thread?  I thought you said the Grande shredded packages don't contain a name on the plastic bags on the Trenton thread.

I do have the All Trumps flour that is above 12.2%.  The Kyrol flour has some hard balls in it now, so that is why I am only using it for bench flour.
 
Thanks for researching oils you think De Lorenzo's at the Robbinsville location might be using.  I see the oil looks like a olive pomace oil.  You have a good eye, because I would not have been able to tell what kind of oil that was in that container from the link you posted.  I will have to purchase some to try.  I never tried olive pomace oil before.  It would save me money too if I used a olive pomace oil in my dough, instead of the olive oil I am using.

I did get an email back from Joe Kelley this morning.  This is what he said.
Hello Norma,

Best Bakers is a Pillsbury brand patent flour.  It has a lower protein content than our High Gluten flours like All Trumps.  It has traditionally been used as a high quality bread flour but works very well for pan/Greek style pizza as well as tomato pies.

Are you looking for yourself or another forum user?

Thanks,

Joe

BTW, did you think those dough balls were different sizes in the photos you referenced before?

I also was invited by Scott Wiener to the big fund raising event in NYC.  This is the email he sent me.
Wow I've always heard there was a Trenton/Jersey Shore connection and I guess this is it! I think Marucas buys their mozz and ages it 6 months to soften it. I tried an experiment with a block of Polly-o and it did get really soft and creamy. Interesting their website says mozzarella but they use white cheddar. WOW 45 lbs per block is a lot of cheese! All very interesting. I really can't wait to meet you in person -- I am going to learn a TON!

Hope to meet you soon! Actually, we're doing a big fundraising event in Manhattan on October 9 and I wonder if you're interested in participating in some way. We get 35 or so of the city's best pizzerias to donate pizza and the slices go for $1 each. All the money goes to the local food bank. Last year we raised $13,800 and this year we're going to hit $20,000. Let me know if you'd like to come volunteer for the event! Either way, spread the word because this event is all about great pizza and I know that's very near and dear to you!

www.sliceouthunger.org (http://www.sliceouthunger.org)

Talk soon,
Scott

I sure would like to volunteer at the sliceouthunger event and be able to meet Scott Wiener in person.  ;D  I have to see what I can do about going to that event.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 09:16:11 AM
Norma,

What makes you believe that the Robbinsville location is now using Grande cheese?  Did someone report that other than the one person that mentioned that on the Trenton thread?  I thought you said the Grande shredded packages don't contain a name on the plastic bags on the Trenton thread.
I may have jumped the gun on what Robbinsville is now using. To recapitulate, in the early days, De Lorenzo's/Hudson used the Maggio cheese. But, according to Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262), if Chick was to be believed, De Lorenzo's/Hudson also used Grande cheese. Later, but still in the roughly 2007 timeframe, it was reported by BenLee (at Reply 133 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg46797/topicseen.html#msg46797)) that De Lorenzo's was perhaps using Sorrento cheese. Since BenLee posted in Sept. 2007, before the opening of Robbinsvile (which has been around for about five years, having opened in late 2007), he must have been referring to the Hudson location. However, Pawleck at eGullet reported in March 2008 seeing the Sorrento cheese at the Robbinsville location. So, what Robbinsville is now using is up for grabs. But thanks for getting me to lay out the chronology. I will search some more to see if I can find what cheese Robbinsville is now using.

As for the markings on the bags of cheese, my understanding has always been that Grande marks its bags of shredded mozzarella cheese. You may be thinking of JoeyBagadonuts post at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44330/topicseen.html#msg44330 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44330/topicseen.html#msg44330) or Reply 171 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg272686.html#msg272686 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg272686.html#msg272686).

I do have the All Trumps flour that is above 12.2%.  The Kyrol flour has some hard balls in it now, so that is why I am only using it for bench flour.
The All Trumps is fine. I will use that as the basis of my calculations of the amounts of the AT and Occident flours to use for your experiment.
 
I did get an email back from Joe Kelley this morning.  This is what he said.
Hello Norma,

Best Bakers is a Pillsbury brand patent flour.  It has a lower protein content than our High Gluten flours like All Trumps.  It has traditionally been used as a high quality bread flour but works very well for pan/Greek style pizza as well as tomato pies.
That is good news because it corrects the mislabeling of the description of that flour at the GM website. It was also interesting to note that the flour can be used to make tomato pies. That is right up our alley.

BTW, did you think those dough balls were different sizes in the photos you referenced before?
I am leaning to yes. Part of it is that I am hard pressed to recall any pizza operator who uses one size dough ball to make more than one size of a given style of pizza. Some may use the same dough to make two different styles (such as a Chicago deep-dish and a Chicago thin) but not two sizes of the same style. At least that I can recall. Also, Rick De Lorenzo was also very assertive on this point in his response to you at his Facebook page. Now I am looking for evidence beyond the eyewitness account of one of our members who originally suggested that only one size dough ball was used by De Lorenzo's to make both sizes of pizzas that they are actually doing that. Ultimately, I think that this is a matter that can easily be resolved by trying to make a 14" pizza and a 16" pizza from the same size dough ball. If the 16" is a cracker rather than something between say, a cracker style and a NY style, then that should end the matter.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 09:56:44 AM
Norma,

Following up on my last post, you no doubt are aware of the article at http://mainlinepizzaquest.blogspot.com/2012/01/review-delorenzos-tomato-pies-hudson-st.html (http://mainlinepizzaquest.blogspot.com/2012/01/review-delorenzos-tomato-pies-hudson-st.html) since I saw your mug shot in the comments section :-D. As you know, that article, which was close to the day that De Lorenzo's closed at Hudson (1/15/12), said that De Lorenzo's/Hudson was using Sargento cheese. However, the first commentor corrected the article by saying that the cheese was Sorrento cheese, not Sargento cheese. If the commenter was correct, that increases the likelihood that Robbinsville went with the Sorrento cheese also, since there would not have been a reason not to do so, and especially since Robbinsville in all material aspects beyond the more modern setting and using new Blodgett ovens seemed to be copying everything that was being done at the time at the Hudson location. I might be wrong and Robbinsville might have gone to another cheese at some point, so more evidence is needed to nail this down.

BTW, in the article at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf), Sam said that he wanted the Robbinsville restaurant to stay true to the original in Trenton, to the point where when the restaurant was under construction he would bring a five gallon jug of water with him on his trips between Trenton and Robbinsville to see if the new water faucets changed the way the pizzas turned out. 

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 10:05:14 AM
Peter,

Thank you for laying out the chronology about the cheese that De Lorenzo's might be use. 

I will reply to your posts more later when I get home from taking my mother to the eye doctor, but I wanted to know Joey Kelley sent me another email.  This is what it said.

Hi Norma,

Please send me your address again and I will ship you a sample of the Best Bakers to try out.  The dough will not stretch as thinly as dough made from All Trumps but it will create more volume when baked which should hopefully give you the tomato pie you have been looking for.

Thank you,
Joe Kelley

Guess I will get to try out the real flour that De Lorezno's is using.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 21, 2013, 10:18:59 AM
You sweet talker you.  :)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 01:20:09 PM
Peter,

I also thought Grande always labeled their bags, at least from what I have seen.  I guess I was thinking about JoeyBagadonuts post at Reply 21.

Maybe I will see if different size dough balls are used at the De Lorenzo's Robbinsville location when I get to visit.  Your idea is good about making two sizes of pizza out of the same weight dough balls.

Yes, that was my post on the article you referenced at Reply 247 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274404.html#msg274404 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274404.html#msg274404)  Yep, that is my mug shot in the comments section too.  :-D  I didn't think about Robbinsville going with Sargento cheese. 

I talked to Trenton Bill again this morning and he told me who he thought was the distributor of De Lorezeno's flour was.  The distributor is called Arm National Food Service,  1546 Lamberton Rd., Trenton, NJ.  They don't have a website, but I called them.  I was passed from person to person, but finally got to talk to a saleman.  Joe told me that they do carry the Bakers Best Pillsbury Patent flour.  I had wanted to get a catalog in all they offer for pizzerias, but first I would need to set-up an account.  Joe said he would tell me prices for anything I wanted to know though without setting up an account.  The Bakers Best Pillsbury Patent flour is 16.20 for a 50 lb. bag right now.  I found one other thing interesting that Joe told me.  Joe said they do sell a lot of the Bakers Best Pillsbury Patent flour, but sell a lot more All Trumps and So Strong flour http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/so-strong-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133878000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/so-strong-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133878000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category) to pizzerias in the Trenton area.  Joe told me they also sell Grande products, but I didn't ask about other cheeses.  Do you want me to call Joe and ask him about other cheeses?  Joe gave me his direct cell phone number.  Joe was also a owner of a pizzeria for a long while.

Edit: I didn't see your edited post, but did read about taking water to the new location.  Lol that made me chuckle.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 01:29:37 PM
You sweet talker you.  :)

Bob,

Lol, do you mean about the flour?  If you did, I only wanted to find out if the flour had a Pillsbury name to it and also how it performed. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 01:39:49 PM
Joe told me they also sell Grande products, but I didn't ask about other cheeses.  Do you want me to call Joe and ask him about other cheeses?  Joe gave me his direct cell phone number.  Joe was also a owner of a pizzeria for a long while.
Norma,

It would be interesting to know if National Food Service carries the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, tomato products like the 6-in-1s and RedPack, and olive pomace oil or something equivalent for use in pizza applications. If they carry those items that might tell us that they are the De Lorenzo supplier, or maybe one of them.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 03:02:52 PM
Norma,

It would be interesting to know if National Food Service carries the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, tomato products like the 6-in-1s and RedPack, and olive pomace oil or something equivalent for use in pizza applications. If they carry those items that might tell us that they are the De Lorenzo supplier, or maybe one of them.

Peter

Peter,

I called Joe, and although he speaks with a heavy Italian accent, I think I understood all what he said.  Joe said the do carry 6-in-1s, Red Pack Plum tomatoes, olive oil pomace blends in 10%, 25% and I think he said more percentages of blends in the percentages, but am not sure of if there were other percentages mentioned.  For the cheeses he said they carry Grande, Polly O and something called Philly's Best mozzarella.  I asked Joe what is Philly's Best mozzarella because I never heard of it before.  Joe said the Philly Best is one of the better sellers in their area.  I had no idea what Philly's Best mozzarella was so I asked Joe who makes/or who is the producer of that mozzarella.  He wasn't sure, but said he would find out for me and get back to me.  I have no idea if Philly's Best mozzarella is something that Crowley's makes and maybe might have been Maggio mozzarella at one time.  Joe said they don't carry Sorrento mozzarella, Sargento or Maggio mozzarella.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on August 21, 2013, 03:11:31 PM
Norma, this is slightly off topic, but you've baked with Grande and Country Brand mozzarella, right? How would you compare them? Have you baked with any other wholesale brands, and, if so, how do those compare?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 03:29:07 PM
Norma, this is slightly off topic, but you've baked with Grande and Country Brand mozzarella, right? How would you compare them? Have you baked with any other wholesale brands, and, if so, how do those compare?

Scott,

I have baked with Grande, but not with Country Brand mozzarella.  I do get to taste the pizzas made with the Country Brand mozzarella from when Steve makes those NY style pizzas.  I would have to say I do like the Country Brand mozzarella better than Grande.  To my taste buds Grande has lost some of its flavor, although it melts and strings beautifully.  As you know right now I am using a mild white cheddar on the pies on this thread.  If you want the name of that mild white cheddar you can PM me, but that mild white cheddar only comes in 40-45 lb. blocks.  Most of my customers think the mild white cheddar is really mozzarella.  I had numerous customers tell me that my cheese is the best mozzarella they have ever tasted.  I have used other commerical mozzarellas like Foremost Farms and Bella Fran.  They both are good mozzarellas to in my opinion, with Bella Fran beating out Foremost Farms to me.  I did try John Martin's mozzarella and don't like that.  I would have to think over what other mozzarellas I might have tried.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 03:30:57 PM
Peter,

Joe called me back and can't find out who produces Philly's Best mozzarella. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: scott123 on August 21, 2013, 03:34:54 PM
I would have to say I do like the Country Brand mozzarella better than Grande.  To my taste buds Grande has lost some of its flavor, although it melts and strings beautifully.

Thanks, that exactly what I wanted to hear. I, too, feel that Grande has lost flavor.  If Country is more flavorful to you, then I'm ready to invest in the $25 or so for a brick to try it out.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BeerdedOne on August 21, 2013, 04:06:28 PM
I have fond memories of the philly style tomato pies, having grown up in that area.  Corropolese, Gaeta's & especially Marchianos being a few of note.  In my opinion these pies really shine in their ability to be eaten cold and stay fresh for long periods due to the soft and bready dough that is used.


Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 04:13:18 PM
Thanks, that exactly what I wanted to hear. I, too, feel that Grande has lost flavor.  If Country is more flavorful to you, then I'm ready to invest in the $25 or so for a brick to try it out.

Scott,

What brands of mozzarellas can you purchase in your area?  You can ask Steve (Ev) on one of his threads what he thinks about the Country Brand of mozzarella compared to Grande.  I think Steve purchases the Country Brand of mozzarella at Salino's in Reading, Pa.  http://www.salinosimporting.com/ (http://www.salinosimporting.com/)  I know it is cheaper a lb. than the mozzarellas I was purchasing.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 04:19:05 PM
I have fond memories of the philly style tomato pies, having grown up in that area.  Corropolese, Gaeta's & especially Marchianos being a few of note.  In my opinion these pies really shine in their ability to be eaten cold and stay fresh for long periods due to the soft and bready dough that is used.

JP,

Your are like Dave then if you like that style of tomato pie.  ;D  I agree, they really do shine when eating them cold.  Steve and I visited a tomato pie pizzeria like the ones you mentioned.  I posted about that on a thread over at the pizzeria and restaurant reviews.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 05:35:36 PM
I think I might have looked at this blogger's post before about Mack's and Mancos & Mancos for the NJ boardwalk thread, but think I might have tied in something about their Trenton Tomato Pies and how they baked them.  In this bloggers article it says the Trenton Tomato Pie is baked at high temperatures for 10 to 12 minutes.  I didn't recall reading that before and don't remember Mack's pizzas being baked at higher temperatures and for that long.  I wonder where Anthony Macrone learned to make his Trenton Tomato Pies and if he might have learned from Papa's or De Lorenzo's. http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2011/12/mack-mancos-to-manco-mancos-pizza.html (http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2011/12/mack-mancos-to-manco-mancos-pizza.html)   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 21, 2013, 05:48:57 PM
Thanks for the diversion reading through this thread at the office.

Delorenzo's Tomato Pies (Hudson St.) were my holy grail of pizza making and pizza eating. When they were small and more family run, I used to go there many Fridays for lunch. I used to pick their brains because I was curious, and because I was about to buy a two-deck electric pizza oven I have in my garage.
They are nice people and very accomodating and used to like to talk about their pies and their process.

So, here go some thoughts.

The two Delorenzo families are just that: two related families. To talk about them in the same thread is misleading. They are very different operations with different recipes and different methods. I've long thought that the Delorenzo Pizza people benefited from the confusion with Hudson. Never was impressed with their place.

I am convinced that the only difference between Hudson St. and the Robbinsville place is the water. Gary Amico told me that, and I know Sam was very conscientious about not changing anything when they moved. They were curious about the differences in water, but...thought it didn't make a marked difference. I agree.

They use Sorrento, part-skim. Red Pack (not sure if regular or plum; think it's plum and I use that) and that 6 in 1 stuff that I have to buy on the internet, as it's impossible to find in stores. Oil in the dough and on the pies is the same: an olive and soy blend....I think it's a pretty well known blend. Pillsbury flour..which they said was "regular", but....I once tried to talk to Sam about the yeast, but he seemed uninterested, as it was, he said "regular stuff; nothing special". His father and he were the only ones who knew the recipe. They had no real pattern of making the dough...when they could, they said. But, I think they preferred a day long cold ferment if they could.  Cooked in Blodgetts at 550 as reported. Semonlina to give it the ball-bearings off the peel.

Toppings are a weakness, IMO. Great sausage and pepperoni. Other than onions ..all else is from a can or jar: peppers, mushroom, clams, garlic, anchovies, of course. The spinach is fresh, I'd guess and broccoli, though I've never ordered that.

The method used to be that an assistant would bang out the dough, and then Sam or his father would stretch it before putting in on the peel. And, then it went back for toppings, depending on who was free..the stretcher or the banger. I think it's the same at Robbinsville...a trusted guy and Sam do the stretching. I know they said that if they flipped it in the air...it would be full of holes. It was relatively delicate.

Not sure what else there is to say. THE BEST..anywhere, IMO. Nothing in New Haven or NY is as good, and I've been a "hungry heart" pilgrim for many many years...to all the "famous" places.

I think I've gotten pretty close..though at home...though I think I've never really gotten the hydration quite right..sometimes it gets too thin.

VIVE Trenton!! Viva la famiglia Amico....

Stay tuned,hopefully, for a branch in Bucks County PA over the Delaware River...near Newtown. Last I heard they didn't know exactly where or when...but since that would be closer for me....I'll look forward to it.

Keep up the good work on this forum!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2013, 06:39:38 PM
Stuart,

Thank you for your report. It is much appreciated.

Little by little, I think Norma and BenLee and I have been zeroing in on what the folks at Robbinsville are doing. There are a few areas where there is still some uncertainty, such as using olive oil with soybean oil instead of canola oil, and using semolina instead of cornmeal, and on the type of yeast to use, but these are small matters in the bigger scheme of things. One of the remaining big issues is whether Robbinsville uses two different dough ball weights for the two pizza sizes. Logic suggests a yes answer to me but strange things sometimes happens. Do you have an answer on this matter?

I think I am close to being able to come up with a clone dough formulation for Norma to use with her Pillsbury flour when it arrives, including a thickness factor to use. I also think the hydration value is higher than what many might believe to be necessary. I say this because of the long bake time and 550 degrees F oven temperature that De Lorenzo's is said to use at Robbinsville. Long bake times and high hydration values combine to increase crust crispness, although that might appear to some (such as those who advocate low hydration values) to be counterintuitive. With the hydration value and related state of fermentation I have in mind, it would not be possible to toss the skins.

The use of oil in the dough will reduce the nominal hydration value while contributing to crust flavor and crumb softness, but reports to date are that there is not a lot of oil in the dough. And no sugar.

In Norma's case, she may have to play around with her Bakers Pride deck oven to achieve the desired results. In a home setting, I would recommend using a bake temperature at or below 500 degrees F and a fairly long bake time. Also critical in my opinion is selecting the right thickness factor. Its value, taken together with the hydration value and the bake temperature and time, have to be in balance to achieve the desired and intended results.

To the above, I would add that I found the set of photos at  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm) to be most helpful. I would especially pay close attention to how the skins are formed, including their thickness, and how they are dressed, including the quantities of cheese (sparingly), tomatoes and toppings used. Attention should also be paid to the proper sequence of applying the cheese, tomatoes and toppings onto the skins.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 06:55:56 PM
Stuart,

I also thank you for your report!  I enjoyed your post very much. 

It is good you really enjoyed Delorenzo's on Hudson St. and picked their brains to find out more about the holy grail of what you would like to make in a pizza. 

Thanks also for confirming that the cheese is Sorrento part skim.  I find it interesting the oil in the dough is an olive oil and soy blend.  I also find it interesting that if they tried to flip the dough into the air it would have been full of holes.  Did you ever watch how they opened dough balls? 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 07:01:30 PM
I don't know how true this article is right now, but its says the crusts of tomato pies will rise more in the warm summer than the winter, so the crusts will be thicker in the summer after the pizzas are baked. http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1462.htm (http://www.philadelphia-reflections.com/blog/1462.htm)  That really doesn't make much of any sense to me since there is refrigeration now to control dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2013, 07:17:18 PM
I didn't take many photos yesterday, but these two different pizzas were baked on the top deck then placed on the bottom deck to finish baking.  I only took these two photos and really just wanted to show how the bottom crust became browner and crisper from the changing decks.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BeerdedOne on August 22, 2013, 01:45:00 AM
Norma-

Those look really great. The browning on the bottom pie looks particularly delicious.  :drool:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 08:35:17 AM
Norma-

Those look really great. The browning on the bottom pie looks particularly delicious.  :drool:

JP,

Thanks!  You might be surprised that my customers really don't like a bottom crust that is that brown.  Most of my customers like a bottom crust that is crispy right out of the oven, or some like a quick reheat to get a crispy crust.  Some of my customers would say that kind of bottom crust is burnt.  This next photo doesn't really show what the bottom crust looks like because the slice is taken from too great a distance, but that man is what we call our second "Raymond".  He has the same accent just like Raymond in "Everyone loves Raymond" and is a great customer of mine.  That slice doesn't look crispy, but it was.  He was a great sport in saying he didn't mind if I took a photo of him eating a slice.  He actually ate two slices and usually does each Tuesday.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 08:49:46 AM
These were some of the dough balls made on Monday for Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 09:21:20 AM
This is the email I received from Joe this morning.

Hello Norma,

I have filed a sample to get to you next Wednesday.  I am also mailing out a little reference guide with pizza dough formulas based on the different General Mills Flours we mill.  Try following the Pan Style pizza formula for your tomato pie and let me know how it goes.

It is always my pleasure to help, please continue to keep me updated with your testing.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 22, 2013, 10:43:41 AM
I am also mailing out a little reference guide with pizza dough formulas based on the different General Mills Flours we mill.
Norma,

You might want to send Joe your "book" of dough formulations for 286 different pizzas, including the Sukie pizza made using the General Mills Bisquick mixes :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 11:37:43 AM
Norma,

You might want to send Joe your "book" of dough formulations for 286 different pizzas, including the Sukie pizza made using the General Mills Bisquick mixes :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Did you count all the dough formulations I have tried so far here on the forum?  If you did, I guess I have tried more experiments than I thought I did.  :-D

I did tell Joe how great you are in reverse engineering and cloning pizzas.  He said you have piqued his curiosity as well as how you can do that.  I even told him about the Sukie pizzas you helped me with, the Pepe's frozen dough balls, the PJ's garlic sauce and some other pizzas you cloned, or reversed engineered.  This is what Joe said about you.  “Peter certainly does sound very impressive.  It is very difficult to reverse engineer formulas”.  I told Joe you were helping to reverse engineer or clone the De Lorenzo's pizzas.  I also sent a link to Joe about November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  I told Joe November is sure a genius. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 11:45:04 AM
I forgot to mention in my last post, but I did call Sorrento cheese to see if I can find a place near me to purchase a part-skim low moisture Sorrento mozzarella.  When I used their store locator it showed Wegman's supermarket in Harrisburg was the nearest place that carried the LMPS Sorrento mozzarella.  The lady helped me and I called Giant supermarket near me.  They don't carry the bags of shredded LMPS Sorrento mozzarella, but they do carry blocks of the Sorrento part-skim, but not low moisture.  It that okay to try?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 22, 2013, 12:31:32 PM
Did you count all the dough formulations I have tried so far here on the forum?  If you did, I guess I have tried more experiments than I thought I did.  :-D

I did tell Joe how great you are in reverse engineering and cloning pizzas.  He said you have piqued his curiosity as well as how you can do that.  I even told him about the Sukie pizzas you helped me with, the Pepe's frozen dough balls, the PJ's garlic sauce and some other pizzas you cloned, or reversed engineered.  This is what Joe said about you.  “Peter certainly does sound very impressive.  It is very difficult to reverse engineer formulas”.  I told Joe you were helping to reverse engineer or clone the De Lorenzo's pizzas.  I also sent a link to Joe about November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator.  I told Joe November is sure a genius. 
Norma,

No, I did not count the number of dough formulations you used. I was just having a little fun and made up the number.

Joe is right that it is very difficult to reverse engineer formulations. You usually need ingredients lists and, if possible, physical data (like pizza size, weights, etc.) to make it worth while attempting a reverse engineering project. A lot of painstaking research is also needed. There aren't many people who do what I do. I suspect that they are out there somewhere but they are perhaps in institutions where they are being treated by some very nice and caring medical and social workers before they can be released to society once again where they won't hurt themselves or others. This is not stuff for normal people.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 22, 2013, 02:10:49 PM
Stuart,

Thank you for your report. It is much appreciated.

 One of the remaining big issues is whether Robbinsville uses two different dough ball weights for the two pizza sizes. Logic suggests a yes answer to me but strange things sometimes happens. Do you have an answer on this matter?


The use of oil in the dough will reduce the nominal hydration value while contributing to crust flavor and crumb softness, but reports to date are that there is not a lot of oil in the dough. And no sugar.

To the above, I would add that I found the set of photos at  http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm) to be most helpful. I would especially pay close attention to how the skins are formed, including their thickness, and how they are dressed, including the quantities of cheese (sparingly), tomatoes and toppings used. Attention should also be paid to the proper sequence of applying the cheese, tomatoes and toppings onto the skins.

Peter

Peter....thanks for your reply...no idea on the ball weights. Other than on the clam pie, I almost never saw them making any "small" pies, so....I have no idea.

I know Sam once said that though they use oil in the dough...it really is a very small amount relatively. And, as you said, no sugar.

Yes..those pix are great. I posted them years ago on this board. And, I look at them from time to time when I'm craving a Delorenzo's pie..or my version.  :chef: (In fact, the Rolls Royce in the photos is owned by a friend of mine; I turned him onto the Hudson St. place and he went with me a couple of times. He happened to be there the day of the photo shoot and they asked him if it was ok to use the car in it.)



Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 02:11:09 PM
Norma,

Joe is right that it is very difficult to reverse engineer formulations. You usually need ingredients lists and, if possible, physical data (like pizza size, weights, etc.) to make it worth while attempting a reverse engineering project. A lot of painstaking research is also needed. There aren't many people who do what I do. I suspect that they are out there somewhere but they are perhaps in institutions where they are being treated by some very nice and caring medical and social workers before they can be released to society once again where they won't hurt themselves or others. This is not stuff for normal people.

Peter

Peter,

I know there might not be any other people out there that can reverse engineer or clone pizzas.  You might be the only other person that can do that except maybe November.  I know how much work you have done on doing reverse engineering projects.  At least different things about ingredients and other things are learned along the way in those reverse engineering or cloning projects.  I know it's not normal stuff that normal people do, but I did get to meet you at Craig's Pizza Summit II and you seemed very normal to me. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 02:15:58 PM
A peek inside Papa's Tomato Pies new location from Papa's Tomato Pies on their facebook page. 

https://www.facebook.com/PapasTomatoPies (https://www.facebook.com/PapasTomatoPies) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 22, 2013, 02:17:56 PM
Stuart,

I also thank you for your report!  I enjoyed your post very much. 

It is good you really enjoyed Delorenzo's on Hudson St. and picked their brains to find out more about the holy grail of what you would like to make in a pizza. 

Thanks also for confirming that the cheese is Sorrento part skim.  I find it interesting the oil in the dough is an olive oil and soy blend.  I also find it interesting that if they tried to flip the dough into the air it would have been full of holes.  Did you ever watch how they opened dough balls? 

Norma

Norma...yes...I watched many times...they don't really "open" it as I think of that term (though I'm not a baker). They take the ball , flour it and pound it out with their fingers on the countertop. In fact, Sam once told me that the "secret" to that is "banging out the dough" like that. It's a pretty tedious process relative to what you see in some pizza places (especially with ones with machines), but...I think it is responsible for the great texture and rigidity of the middle of most of their pies. As I said...after one person did the banging....Sam or his father (or sometimes another person) would then stretch it out before putting it on the peel to dress the pie. I rarely saw the two being done by the same person...and the banger almost never did the stretching. (One of my missing links at home is stretching the dough without making it too thin in the middle, from gravity, so the middle isn't rigid enough. Obviously, in those cases, my dough isn't as "strong" as their is...but I'm careful.)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 02:42:30 PM
Norma...yes...I watched many times...they don't really "open" it as I think of that term (though I'm not a baker). They take the ball , flour it and pound it out with their fingers on the countertop. In fact, Sam once told me that the "secret" to that is "banging out the dough" like that. It's a pretty tedious process relative to what you see in some pizza places (especially with ones with machines), but...I think it is responsible for the great texture and rigidity of the middle of most of their pies. As I said...after one person did the banging....Sam or his father (or sometimes another person) would then stretch it out before putting it on the peel to dress the pie. I rarely saw the two being done by the same person...and the banger almost never did the stretching. (One of my missing links at home is stretching the dough without making it too thin in the middle, from gravity, so the middle isn't rigid enough. Obviously, in those cases, my dough isn't as "strong" as their is...but I'm careful.)

Stuart,

Thanks for explaining that Sam told you the “secret” is about banging out the dough.  Thanks also for explaining that you think that is responsible for the great texture and rigidity of the middle of most of their pizzas.  I guess I will have problems trying to "bang out the dough" too because I never tried that before, unless is is something like what Mack's pizza does first before they fully open the skin. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 22, 2013, 03:18:36 PM
Norma...

In those photos of Delorenzo's, there is one with someone "banging" out the dough..though not violently. You can see the finger marks of what he has already done with his finger tips. In the picture he is compressing the dough with his hands rather than "banging".
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 03:39:50 PM
Norma...

In those photos of Delorenzo's, there is one with someone "banging" out the dough..though not violently. You can see the finger marks of what he has already done with his finger tips. In the picture he is compressing the dough with his hands rather than "banging".

Stuart,

Thanks so much for posting the photo!  I see what you mean that the finger marks can be seen.  Thanks for explaining in the photo what he is doing is compressing the dough with his hands.  Does the next two photos show what he does next and do they always drape the dough over the edge when opening the skin?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 22, 2013, 05:09:52 PM
Well, I think you've got photos of the whole doughball to ready-for- toppings process at Delorenzo's there. In the first picture Matt, a longtime employee (and good guy) is banging out the pie and sort of stretching it out while compressing it. In the second some is trying to stretch out the compressed pie by hanging over the edge, "lubricated" by bench flour. In the final picture, Sam, the owner (and a very nice and knowledgable  and intereseted in what he does, and modest and earnest guy) is stretching it out before putting it on the peel. That's a pretty fast part of the operation, and seems to be left mainly to the most experienced guys: Matt, Sam and Sam's father, Gary Amico, who ran Hudson St. and who occasionally works at Robbinsville.

Though Sam has said he couldn't twirl a pie without putting his hand through it....he sure seems to be close to putting his fist through it...so that dough must be decently elastic.

I'm hungry for one of their pies.

P.S. I read today that Papa's Pies has opened a quarter of mile from Delorenzo's in Robbinsville and that they are calling the town "Robbinsburg" after Chambersburg. I've only been to Papa's once...and liked it fine, but....not enough to go back, I guess in the ten years or so since I went. I might check it out, particularly if I'm in the area on a Monday when Delorenzo's is closed. (You gotta be careful while on a pizza trek up the east coast: in New Haven, Modern, my favorite, is closed on Mondays, too.)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2013, 06:29:57 PM
Well, I think you've got photos of the whole doughball to ready-for- toppings process at Delorenzo's there. In the first picture Matt, a longtime employee (and good guy) is banging out the pie and sort of stretching it out while compressing it. In the second some is trying to stretch out the compressed pie by hanging over the edge, "lubricated" by bench flour. In the final picture, Sam, the owner (and a very nice and knowledgable  and intereseted in what he does, and modest and earnest guy) is stretching it out before putting it on the peel. That's a pretty fast part of the operation, and seems to be left mainly to the most experienced guys: Matt, Sam and Sam's father, Gary Amico, who ran Hudson St. and who occasionally works at Robbinsville.

Though Sam has said he couldn't twirl a pie without putting his hand through it....he sure seems to be close to putting his fist through it...so that dough must be decently elastic.

I'm hungry for one of their pies.

P.S. I read today that Papa's Pies has opened a quarter of mile from Delorenzo's in Robbinsville and that they are calling the town "Robbinsburg" after Chambersburg. I've only been to Papa's once...and liked it fine, but....not enough to go back, I guess in the ten years or so since I went. I might check it out, particularly if I'm in the area on a Monday when Delorenzo's is closed. (You gotta be careful while on a pizza trek up the east coast: in New Haven, Modern, my favorite, is closed on Mondays, too.)

Stuart,

Good to hear that seems like most of the process of opening a dough ball.  I agree that the dough in Sam's hands does look fairly elastic, even though he told you he couldn't twirl a pie without putting his hand though it.  When most of my dough balls are mostly opened I can not twirl a skin either (even though I am terrible with tossing and twirling skins).  I could link you to where a pieman (and video at Mack's) says the same thing that once the dough ball is opened so far it will tear if it tossed and twirled.  I had customers ask me at market if I can toss and twirl skins.  I can if the skin isn't opened too far.  I wonder really how elastic De Lorenzo's dough is.  I might be able to see that once I visit De Lorenzo's.

How far to you live from De Lorenzo's in Robbinville?  I visited Papa's Pizza with Trenton Bill and posted about that, but our pizza was burnt on the bottom crust, so I really can't judge how a Papa's pizza should taste. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 10:30:01 AM
Peter,

I couldn't resist  :-D and am going to Trenton Bill's this weekend and we are going to go to De Lorenzo's at the Robbinsville location.  I am going to measure the pizza and also see what size dough balls I can see and anything else that might be helpful.  Do you have any questions you might want me to ask, or any other things I should look for?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2013, 11:49:23 AM
I couldn't resist  :-D and am going to Trenton Bill's this weekend and we are going to go to De Lorenzo's at the Robbinsville location.  I am going to measure the pizza and also see what size dough balls I can see and anything else that might be helpful.  Do you have any questions you might want me to ask, or any other things I should look for?
Norma,

You have become an old pro at extracting information out of people, so you should just do what you always do. Maybe if you tell Sammy, if he is there, that you are a pizza operator, he might open up more out of professional kinship.

It would be nice to nail down the dough ball size matter but dough balls can take on various sizes depending on where they are in the fermentation/temper cycle. So you may see several different sizes.

It would also be interesting to know more about the yeast, if only to rule out certain things, and whether the oil is put in the dough or just dribbled down the side of the mixer bowl to make it easier to remove the dough mass from the mixer. You might also look for signs of semolina/cornmeal in the dough boxes and in the silver colored bowls that are kept at the workstations.

There are bound to be things that you pick up that were not in articles or videos or photos of the De Lorenzo tomato pies. Some of those things might help you with your clone.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: kramer73 on August 23, 2013, 12:20:05 PM
Norma! ;D

First Dough (1 @ 17.5" Pie), TF = 0.080

Flour (100%):         330.56 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (60.1%): 198.66 g  |  7.01 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):         0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):        5.78 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.04%): 6.74 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Sugar (.89%):         2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Total (165.03%):545.52 g | 19.24 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.08



Yesterday I used thus formulation.  I've been working weird hours this week, so I made it and threw it in the fridge at 2 in the morning.  I took it out around 10:30 the same morning, made a quick sauce with some marzanos from the garden, and took one daughter to swimming.  Got back, opened the dough, and went to town.  I used a mozz/provolone blend and chopped red peppers.  Initially I had the oven at @ 450, but my fresh sauce proved to be too watery and I had to crank it to 500.  I think it was maybe in the given @ 20-25 minutes.  Everyone loved it, and one daughter called the crust "phenomenal".  The crust was slightly thin and crisp, which is exactly what I've been looking for!

Not sure how well I will be able to replicate this due to the change in temp!

Andy
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 23, 2013, 12:32:09 PM
FWIW...

a couple more pix from that post years ago....looks like flour on the peel and semolina for the balls to proof/rest before the sacrifice....
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2013, 12:57:25 PM
Stuart,

The idea of using semolina in the dough boxes came from MTPIZZA at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44311/topicseen.html#msg44311 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44311/topicseen.html#msg44311) . He also maintained that the semolina side of the dough balls was always down.

I have noted quite a bit of confusion on whether semolina or cornmeal is used. That confusion is quite natural and common. Both have similar color and can also be similar in grind. Using cornmeal in a deck oven can often make a mess, whereas semolina appears less prone to do this. I looked for brushes or mops in the photos but did not see any. So, at this point, I would lean toward semolina, with bench flour or semolina being used on the peel although in the photos I could not make out semolina in the bowls at the workstations.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 01:03:12 PM
Norma,

You have become an old pro at extracting information out of people, so you should just do what you always do. Maybe if you tell Sammy, if he is there, that you are a pizza operator, he might open up more out of professional kinship.

It would be nice to nail down the dough ball size matter but dough balls can take on various sizes depending on where they are in the fermentation/temper cycle. So you may see several different sizes.

It would also be interesting to know more about the yeast, if only to rule out certain things, and whether the oil is put in the dough or just dribbled down the side of the mixer bowl to make it easier to remove the dough mass from the mixer. You might also look for signs of semolina/cornmeal in the dough boxes and in the silver colored bowls that are kept at the workstations.

There are bound to be things that you pick up that were not in articles or videos or photos of the De Lorenzo tomato pies. Some of those things might help you with your clone.

Peter

Peter,

I know I have become an old pro at extracting information out of people, but after leaving a pizza business I think of more things I should have done or asked.  I might tell Sam I am a pizza operator after I look around and see what I can find out.  Some professional pizza operators open up and other ones just shut up thinking I might want to make their kind of pizzas.

Your advice to look at the dough balls is good and I can understand they might be in different fermentation/temper cycles and might look different.  I think Bill and I are going to try to go to De Lorezno's right after they open.

I can see it would be helpful to learn more about the yeast they use.  I didn't think about how the oil might be used in the mixing process.  I will look for signs of semolina/cornmeal in the dough boxes and in the silver colored bowls that are at the workstations. 

Hopefully while watching I will pick some things up for my cloning efforts.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 01:09:26 PM
Yesterday I used thus formulation.  I've been working weird hours this week, so I made it and threw it in the fridge at 2 in the morning.  I took it out around 10:30 the same morning, made a quick sauce with some marzanos from the garden, and took one daughter to swimming.  Got back, opened the dough, and went to town.  I used a mozz/provolone blend and chopped red peppers.  Initially I had the oven at @ 450, but my fresh sauce proved to be too watery and I had to crank it to 500.  I think it was maybe in the given @ 20-25 minutes.  Everyone loved it, and one daughter called the crust "phenomenal".  The crust was slightly thin and crisp, which is exactly what I've been looking for!

Not sure how well I will be able to replicate this due to the change in temp!

Andy

Andy,

I am glad your daughter thought the crust on your tomato pie was “phenomenal” and everyone liked it!  Your sure seemed to know how to manage your oven right in the bake.  Great job on that!  :chef:  Your photos of your tomato pie look excellent.  What kind of flour did you use?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2013, 01:17:53 PM
Norma,

I don't know the physical layout of De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville but sometimes there are areas in the view of diners where supplies, like flour, are kept.

I don't want you and Trenton Bill to get nabbed dumpster diving  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 01:25:40 PM
Norma,

I don't know the physical layout of De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville but sometimes there are areas in the view of diners where supplies, like flour, are kept.

I don't want you and Trenton Bill to get nabbed dumpster diving  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Bill and I talked about the dumpster diving thing and we will see where the dumpsters might be located.  It wouldn't be the first time I went dumpster diving.  :-D I don't know what Bill will want to do about that though.

Norma

Edit:  When we tried to go to De Lorenzo's on my last trip with Bill I recall going around the block to try and see where parking was in Bill vehicle.  I don't really recall much, but think homes are just behind De Lorenzo's.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 01:36:12 PM
Peter,

I just looked on Google Maps for what is behind De Lorenzo's and it looks to me like that is where there is parking for all of the businesses.  I think I saw dumpsters in an enclosed area for all of the businesses in part of the middle of the parking lot.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2013, 01:47:00 PM
Peter,

I just looked on Google Maps for what is behind De Lorenzo's and it looks to me like that is where there is parking for all of the businesses.  I think I saw dumpsters in an enclosed area for all of the businesses in part of the middle of the parking lot.

Norma
ZOOM in Norma!!  :-D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 01:50:07 PM
ZOOM in Norma!!  :-D

Bob,

I tried to zoom in.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 23, 2013, 01:58:55 PM
Bob,

I tried to zoom in.   :-D

Norma
Guess you'll just have to whip out some of that patented "Norma's smooth talk" stuff!  :D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: kramer73 on August 23, 2013, 03:40:56 PM
Andy,

I am glad your daughter thought the crust on your tomato pie was “phenomenal” and everyone liked it!  Your sure seemed to know how to manage your oven right in the bake.  Great job on that!  :chef:  Your photos of your tomato pie look excellent.  What kind of flour did you use?

Norma

Thanks Norma, that's high praise indeed!  I thought it was funny that she used the word "phenomenal", considering she is 8   ;D

I used King Arthur bread flour for this batch, and olive oil for the oil. 

How long have you been keeping your dough in the fridge/cooler?  Normally I keep it in the fridge for a day.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 23, 2013, 06:03:39 PM
Peter,

I just looked on Google Maps for what is behind De Lorenzo's and it looks to me like that is where there is parking for all of the businesses.  I think I saw dumpsters in an enclosed area for all of the businesses in part of the middle of the parking lot.

Norma

lol, yeah, there is a dumpster in the center of the lot.  You'd be better off just walking adjacent to the entrance though.  They leave the kitchen door open in the summer for you to get a great view of the prep room.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 06:17:32 PM
Guess you'll just have to whip out some of that patented "Norma's smooth talk" stuff!  :D

Bob,

It will all depend on how nervous I am, and depends on what kind of vibe I get when talking to them.  I've been know to flub before.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 06:26:06 PM
Thanks Norma, that's high praise indeed!  I thought it was funny that she used the word "phenomenal", considering she is 8   ;D

I used King Arthur bread flour for this batch, and olive oil for the oil. 

How long have you been keeping your dough in the fridge/cooler?  Normally I keep it in the fridge for a day.

Andy,

You deserve the praise.  That is amazing that your 8 year old daughter used the work phenomenal to describe your tomato pie.  My 3 year great-granddaughter says some things that kind of amaze me too.  She is explaining something sometimes and then says well actually and goes on and on. 

Thanks for telling me what flour you used.  I use olive oil too.

Since market conditions limit when I can make dough for a Tuesday I only do a one day cold ferment.  I did use the preferment Lehmann dough for awhile for my pizzas, which including making a preferment on a Friday and then incorporating the preferment into the final dough on a Monday and then a one day cold ferment.  I really liked those pizzas, but it was hard to try and decide on a Friday how many batches of dough I would need for a Tuesday. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 06:32:28 PM
lol, yeah, there is a dumpster in the center of the lot.  You'd be better off just walking adjacent to the entrance though.  They leave the kitchen door open in the summer for you to get a great view of the prep room.

BenLee,

Thanks for telling me the dumpster is in the center of the parking lot.  I can think of some things I might say if I am not to nervous to go in there.  Thanks also for telling me that I would be better off just walking adjacent to the entrance.  The tip about the kitchen door being open in the summer to get a great view of the prep room is cool!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2013, 08:24:54 PM
Norma,

As you prepare for your trip, I'd like to give you the benefit of my thinking on the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation to date, even if it turns out that my thinking is proven faulty in some respect as a result of what you learn.

First, my best estimate on the thickness factor is around 0.065. It may be a bit lower to compensate for the semolina and bench flour used to make the skins but, at a thickness factor of 0.065, that translates to a dough ball weight of 10 ounces for a 14" pizza and 13 ounces for a 16" pizza. Once you get below about 0.065 as a thickness factor, say, 0.05-0.06, your are in cracker crust territory. And, in a commercial setting, you are usually talking about a sheeter or roller of some sort to work with skins at that value of thickness factor. Or, in a home setting, a rolling pin or its equivalent.

Second, making a 16" skin that is uniform in thickness throughout the entire area of the skin solely by hand is not easy to do and takes some practice to accomplish on a consistent basis. I believe that it helps in De Lorenzo's case that they use a commercial mixer. That should produce a fairly robust dough to begin with. Also, I believe that it is important that the person who prepares the dough balls to the stage where they can be handed off to other workers for stretching and dressing do a good job flattening (or "pounding") the dough balls so that they are as uniformly flat as possible. Otherwise, the risk of thin spots, and even tearing, increases, especially if the dough has a high water content as discussed in the next paragraph.

Third, I believe that a dough made from a flour such as the Pillsbury Best Baker's flour, with a protein content of 12.9%, should be able to tolerate a hydration value of around 58-59%. Adding a bit of oil to the dough, such as 1.5%, should increase the extensibility somewhat (plus contribute some other benefits) but it should be possible to grasp and open a large skin to 16" in the manner shown in the De Lorenzo photos without the skin getting away from itself. However, it is highly unlikely that one will be able to toss and twirl such a skin. In fact, as I see it, if one is able to toss and twirl the skin, that perhaps means that the hydration is too low to achieve the type of crust you are after.

Fourth, for the above configuration to work, the dressed pizza has to baked long enough to drive off some of the water content of the dough and give the rim and bottom of the crust enough time to develop the proper color and charring. Depending on the state of fermentation of the dough, there may even be some bubbling in the rim. At the same time, the relatively high hydration of the dough as the pizza bakes will give the crumb some volume such that you don't end up with a crust that is too dry and cracker like.

Finally, one should expect some shrinkage in the final baked pizza, even if it is minor. So, that is something to keep in mind when you measure the diameter of the pizza. Also, workers don't always get the exact diameter of the skin time after time. Sometimes they will be too high and other times they will be too low.

What will most interest me in the context of what I have written above is the hydration value. Since there is only a small amount of oil (or oil blend) in the dough, and there is no sugar, and perhaps a modest amount of salt, and assuming that we have identified that type and brand of flour used and settled on an amount of yeast for a one-day cold fermentation in your case, that pretty much makes the hydration as the critical variable. Of course, the thickness factor value will also have to be right but that is something that can be overcome by running a few tests. Most reverse engineering and cloning exercises don't result in a home run right out of the box.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 23, 2013, 09:19:31 PM
BenLee,

Thanks for telling me the dumpster is in the center of the parking lot.  I can think of some things I might say if I am not to nervous to go in there.  Thanks also for telling me that I would be better off just walking adjacent to the entrance.  The tip about the kitchen door being open in the summer to get a great view of the prep room is cool!  ;D

Norma

No one is gonna care, its the dumpster for about 6 or 7 places.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 09:28:13 PM
Norma,

As you prepare for your trip, I'd like to give you the benefit of my thinking on the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation to date, even if it turns out that my thinking is proven faulty in some respect as a result of what you learn.

First, my best estimate on the thickness factor is around 0.065. It may be a bit lower to compensate for the semolina and bench flour used to make the skins but, at a thickness factor of 0.065, that translates to a dough ball weight of 10 ounces for a 14" pizza and 13 ounces for a 16" pizza. Once you get below about 0.065 as a thickness factor, say, 0.05-0.06, your are in cracker crust territory. And, in a commercial setting, you are usually talking about a sheeter or roller of some sort to work with skins at that value of thickness factor. Or, in a home setting, a rolling pin or its equivalent.

Second, making a 16" skin that is uniform in thickness throughout the entire area of the skin solely by hand is not easy to do and takes some practice to accomplish on a consistent basis. I believe that it helps in De Lorenzo's case that they use a commercial mixer. That should produce a fairly robust dough to begin with. Also, I believe that it is important that the person who prepares the dough balls to the stage where they can be handed off to other workers for stretching and dressing do a good job flattening (or "pounding") the dough balls so that they are as uniformly flat as possible. Otherwise, the risk of thin spots, and even tearing, increases, especially if the dough has a high water content as discussed in the next paragraph.

Third, I believe that a dough made from a flour such as the Pillsbury Best Baker's flour, with a protein content of 12.9%, should be able to tolerate a hydration value of around 58-59%. Adding a bit of oil to the dough, such as 1.5%, should increase the extensibility somewhat (plus contribute some other benefits) but it should be possible to grasp and open a large skin to 16" in the manner shown in the De Lorenzo photos without the skin getting away from itself. However, it is highly unlikely that one will be able to toss and twirl such a skin. In fact, as I see it, if one is able to toss and twirl the skin, that perhaps means that the hydration is too low to achieve the type of crust you are after.

Fourth, for the above configuration to work, the dressed pizza has to baked long enough to drive off some of the water content of the dough and give the rim and bottom of the crust enough time to develop the proper color and charring. Depending on the state of fermentation of the dough, there may even be some bubbling in the rim. At the same time, the relatively high hydration of the dough as the pizza bakes will give the crumb some volume such that you don't end up with a crust that is too dry and cracker like.

Finally, one should expect some shrinkage in the final baked pizza, even if it is minor. So, that is something to keep in mind when you measure the diameter of the pizza. Also, workers don't always get the exact diameter of the skin time after time. Sometimes they will be too high and other times they will be too low.

What will most interest me in the context of what I have written above is the hydration value. Since there is only a small amount of oil (or oil blend) in the dough, and there is no sugar, and perhaps a modest amount of salt, and assuming that we have identified that type and brand of flour used and settled on an amount of yeast for a one-day cold fermentation in your case, that pretty much makes the hydration as the critical variable. Of course, the thickness factor value will also have to be right but that is something that can be overcome by running a few tests. Most reverse engineering and cloning exercises don't result in a home run right out of the box.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for giving me the benefit of your thinking on the De Lorenzo dough formulation you have to this date, before I go to De Lorenzo's tomorrow. 

I thought the TF was going to be fairly low.  Interesting that the dough ball weighs you have in mind are 10 ounces for a 14” pizza and 13 ounces for a 16” pizza.  I know some about cracker crusts from the experiments I have done. 

I understand that making a 16” skin that is uniform in thickness throughout the entire area of the skin if it is stretched solely by hand would need some practice to be able to do that.  I agree that the person who prepares the dough balls to the stage where they can be handed off to other workers for stretching and dressing do a good job flattening/or pounding the dough balls so they are uniformly as flat as possible. 

Good to hear you believe with a hydration between 58-59% and adding a bit of oil it should increase the extensibility somewhat and it could make a skin like De Lorenzo's without getting away from itself. 

I will try to really look at the dough balls and the way they open their dough balls at De Lorenzo's to see if I see any clues on how robust or fragile that dough and skin are and also if I can judge what hydration they might be. 

I understand about the shrinkage from the bake and know workers don't always get the exact diameter of the skin time after time. 

I know from other reverse engineering and cloning exercises I should not expect a home run right away.

I am getting excited about trying a De Lorenzo's pizza.  Do you think there would be any value in trying the Delo's on Sloan?  Bill mentioned to me we could try them both if I wanted. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 09:31:24 PM
No one is gonna care, its the dumpster for about 6 or 7 places.

BenLee,

That is what I thought by looking at the dumpsters on Google Maps, but I might need a few drinks to get enough nerve up to actually open those doors to be able to look.  If someone would come out to the dumpsters from De Lorenzo's I would be embarrassed.   :-[ 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2013, 10:14:03 PM
I thought the TF was going to be fairly low.  Interesting that the dough ball weighs you have in mind are 10 ounces for a 14” pizza and 13 ounces for a 16” pizza.  I know some about cracker crusts from the experiments I have done. 
Norma,

I neglected to mention that I did not pull the thickness factor out of a hat. To come up with a probable value, I arbitrarily made an eight ounce test dough ball and let it cold ferment for a day, during which time it increased in volume by about 2 1/2 times. After tempering the dough ball, I flattened it out as uniformly as I could, and then gradually opened it up until the thickness was as close as I could get it to what the De Lorenzo photos showed. I had my iPad with me in the kitchen so that I could compare my skin thickness with what was shown in the photos. When I was satisfied that I had come as close as possible to what I saw in the photos, after much tweaking of the diameter of the skin, I weighed the opened skin and, based on its radius, calculated the thickness factor. I had estimated that the thickness factor would be close to 0.065, maybe a bit less. The calculated value was 0.065. I used that value to extrapolate to the 10 ounce and 13 ounce dough ball weights. It appears that De Lorenzo's may be using a 16" x 17" or 16" x 18" wooden peel with a 19" or 20" handle, so it is possible that the large skin is not quite 16" judging from the photos. That is why your measurement might be important.

I followed the above test with another test dough ball that weighed 13 ounces, for a 16" skin. That dough ball was made and managed like the first one. I had no trouble flattening and opening that dough ball to 16". It was extensible, not elastic, and it could not be tossed or twirled. I was using General Mills all-purpose flour, which is all I had on hand for the tests, but I supplemented it with some vital wheat gluten to increase its protein content to 12.9% and give it a bit more structure. After I made the skin, I left it on my wooden peel that I had lightly dusted with bench flour to see if it would stick to the peel. It did not, even after a couple of hours sitting on the peel.

Photos in two dimensions can sometimes be deceiving but I felt the the skins I made were in the thickness factor ballpark.

I ended up discarding the skins. It has been around 100 degrees F here in Texas for several days and I was not anxious to turn on my oven to make pizzas. But the skins served their purpose.

I am not sure that visiting the Sloan De Lorenzo pizzeria will serve much purpose if it is the Robbinsville tomato pie that you would like to replicate. Of course, if you and Trenton Bill are hungry for more pizza, then that is a different story.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 23, 2013, 10:50:44 PM
Norma,

I neglected to mention that I did not pull the thickness factor out of a hat. To come up with a probable value, I arbitrarily made an eight ounce test dough ball and let it cold ferment for a day, during which time it increased in volume by about 2 1/2 times. After tempering the dough ball, I flattened it out as uniformly as I could, and then gradually opened it up until the thickness was as close as I could get it to what the De Lorenzo photos showed. I had my iPad with me in the kitchen so that I could compare my skin thickness with what was shown in the photos. When I was satisfied that I had come as close as possible to what I saw in the photos, after much tweaking of the diameter of the skin, I weighed the opened skin and, based on its radius, calculated the thickness factor. I had estimated that the thickness factor would be close to 0.065, maybe a bit less. The calculated value was 0.065. I used that value to extrapolate to the 10 ounce and 13 ounce dough ball weights. It appears that De Lorenzo's may be using a 16" x 17" or 16" x 18" wooden peel with a 19" or 20" handle, so it is possible that the large skin is not quite 16" judging from the photos. That is why your measurement might be important.

I followed the above test with another test dough ball that weighed 13 ounces, for a 16" skin. That dough ball was made and managed like the first one. I had no trouble flattening and opening that dough ball to 16". It was extensible, not elastic, and it could not be tossed or twirled. I was using General Mills all-purpose flour, which is all I had on hand for the tests, but I supplemented it with some vital wheat gluten to increase its protein content to 12.9% and give it a bit more structure. After I made the skin, I left it on my wooden peel that I had lightly dusted with bench flour to see if it would stick to the peel. It did not, even after a couple of hours sitting on the peel.

Photos in two dimensions can sometimes be deceiving but I felt the the skins I made were in the thickness factor ballpark.

I ended up discarding the skins. It has been around 100 degrees F here in Texas for several days and I was not anxious to turn on my oven to make pizzas. But the skins served their purpose.

I am not sure that visiting the Sloan De Lorenzo pizzeria will serve much purpose if it is the Robbinsville tomato pie that you would like to replicate. Of course, if you and Trenton Bill are hungry for more pizza, then that is a different story.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining the experiments you did to determine what dough ball weights to use for a 14” and 16” pizza.  I know you go into great detail in any reverse engineering and cloning threads you work on and those experiments were no exception.  It was interesting to hear how went about that.

The second test with the dough ball that weighed 13 ounces for the 16” skin sounded interesting in that you had no trouble flattening and opeing that dough ball to 16”.  The part about the skin being extensible, but not elastic is also interesting.  I am not sure if I ever made a dough ball like that before. 

I can understand you didn't want to make those skins into pizzas since it was so hot where you live in Texas. 

Trenton Bill has eaten at both De Lorenzo's old locations and he told me both the Hudson St. location and the Hamilton St. locations of De Lorenzo's had good pizzas and they weren't really all that different.  Maybe that is just Trenton Bill's opinion though.  If we have time and are hungry enough for pizzas I think it would be interesting to go back to back in trying both pizzas.  I also would like to compare how both of their dough balls look like and how they open their dough balls at both locations.  I am not interested in trying the clone the Sloan De Lorenzo's pizza though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2013, 07:28:12 AM
Peter,

This Slice review was by someone that was at the two locations of De Lorenzo's on Hamilton St. and Hudson St in 2005. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2005/01/delorenzos-toma.html)  I think the article tells there can be differences in opinions on which De Lorenzo's pizza was the best.  I am sure you have read the review, but I just wanted to post it since Rich Defabritus (Slice Correspondent) said each De Lorenzo's has its own rabid following.  Rich thought there appeared to be cornmeal in the dough/or crust.  I know it can be confusing if it was cornmeal or semolina though.  I had meant to take photos of the fine cornmeal and semolina I had at market yesterday, but I forgot to take those photos to compare what they look like.  I would be more inclined like you to think it might be semolina because I saw what a mess cornmeal can be when making the MM pizzas.  I thought it was interesting too that Rick said every bite snapped, crackled and popped and the crust was light and airy with excellent flavor and chewiness, seemingly deep-fried. 

Rich also said there were small and large pies, eight and 10 slices respectively at the Hudson St. location. I just wanted to note that both pizzas looked similar to me in that article.  Rich also said the entire tomato-pie-making process seems to be done with more care than any other pizza establishment he had ever seen.  Rich said the taste was completely different from the Hamilton location.  I wonder why he said the crust had a smoky taste.  I don't think I saw the part about the smoky taste in other articles. 

Rich said the Hudson St. De Lorenzo's was his wifes favorite, but he always preferred Hamilton St, but could be swayed.

The photos Rich posted I don't think look exactly like the pies look like now at the Robbinsville location

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 24, 2013, 07:51:56 AM
Norma,

Yes, I did see that Slice article. I was waiting for an opening to note that the small pizza has eight slices and the large pizza has ten slices. That doesn't  translate into pizza sizes but at least connotes size. My recollection is that the slices at the Hamilton De Lorenzo restaurant were cut into regular triangle pieces. I would imagine that is also the practice at the newer Sloan location.

BTW, one of the nice things about the Robbinsville location is that it has a BYOB policy. However, I don't want you and Trenton Bill to imbibe so much that everything becomes a blur and you can't remember the next day that you were even in the restaurant. And we don't want to hear that the police found you and Trenton Bill passed out in the dumpster the next morning with an empty bottle of limoncello clutched in your hand.

Have a great time. I look forward to your report.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2013, 08:14:44 AM
Norma,

Yes, I did see that Slice article. I was waiting for an opening to note that the small pizza has eight slices and the large pizza has ten slices. That doesn't  translate into pizza sizes but at least connotes size. My recollection is that the slices at the Hamilton De Lorenzo restaurant were cut into regular triangle pieces. I would imagine that is also the practice at the newer Sloan location.

BTW, one of the nice things about the Robbinsville location is that it has a BYOB policy. However, I don't want you and Trenton Bill to imbibe so much that everything becomes a blur and you can't remember the next day that you were even in the restaurant. And we don't want to hear that the police found you and Trenton Bill passed out in the dumpster the next morning with an empty bottle of limoncello clutched in your hand.

Have a great time. I look forward to your report.

Peter

Peter,

I have looked at so many pizzas from both De Lorenzo's location that my mind gets foggy if the slices at the Hamilton De Lorezno's restaurant were cut into regular triangle pieces or not.  I think I did read that the Hudson St. location and maybe the new Robbinsville De Lorenzo's used a clam cutter to cut their pizzas.  I want to see if I see that or not.

I saw the Robbinsville location has a BYOB policy.  I have a bottle of wine to take along for today, but Trenton Bill isn't much of a drinker, so I will see if he wants some of the wine.  I don't really imbibe that much either, but might need a few more drinks than normal today and especially if I can't get to sleep tonight.  Lol about the police finding Trenton Bill and me passed out in the dumpster with an empty bottle of limoncello in my hand.  That limoncello sure would do that if I drank even half of a bottle.

Thanks for saying to have a great time.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 24, 2013, 09:21:11 AM


From the Robbinsville Observer.....

"While sleeping it off in a near by dumpster, the dear lady was observed to evidently have an iron grip on a beverage bottle containing an alcoholic drink known as Limoncello" 

Have a nice day Norma  :)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 24, 2013, 10:47:58 AM
Honestly, the two Delorenzo's have little more in common than the name. And, I don't know anyone....or of anyone...who is a fanatic of Delorenzo's Pizza (not Robbinsville or Hudson) . To me....comparing them is really a waste of time, as the "Pizza" place is nothing special...and really never has been. I think Gary Amico, Sam's father, tinkered and tinkered until he came up with what he did. The "Pizza" place, I think , even uses a rolling machine to roll out their dough..or "open" it...

I don't dislike the place, really..and have been there 4-5 times. But...never was really dying to go back. It was open for lunch and more days than Hudson St. was...so...for spontaneity...it was convenient.

I am curious about the new Papa's in Robbinsville....though....have only been to Papa's once, and it was good. But, another place I went to because I was in Trenton and it was open for lunch.

Look forward to the CIA-coded report from the dumpster.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 24, 2013, 11:41:04 AM
In the opening post of the Trenton thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44267.html#msg44267 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44267.html#msg44267), it was reported that De Lorenzo/Hamilton was possibly using a roller or similar apparatus to form the skins. Unfortunately, the link to the Yahoo! article cited in that post no longer works and I could not find a copy of the article in the archives of the Wayback Machine. However, the other day I found a photo that appears to show a dough roller in the corner and to the left of the ovens at the old Hamilton location. That photo can be seen at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110801-delorenzos-pizza-trenton-04.jpg (http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110801-delorenzos-pizza-trenton-04.jpg). What puzzles me, however, is why the dough roller is so far away from what appears to be the make station.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 24, 2013, 02:15:24 PM
BenLee,

That is what I thought by looking at the dumpsters on Google Maps, but I might need a few drinks to get enough nerve up to actually open those doors to be able to look.  If someone would come out to the dumpsters from De Lorenzo's I would be embarrassed.   :-[ 

Norma

Just bring an old soda can or something and act like you were just throwing it away.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 24, 2013, 02:18:54 PM
Honestly, the two Delorenzo's have little more in common than the name. And, I don't know anyone....or of anyone...who is a fanatic of Delorenzo's Pizza (not Robbinsville or Hudson) . To me....comparing them is really a waste of time, as the "Pizza" place is nothing special...and really never has been. I think Gary Amico, Sam's father, tinkered and tinkered until he came up with what he did. The "Pizza" place, I think , even uses a rolling machine to roll out their dough..or "open" it...

I don't dislike the place, really..and have been there 4-5 times. But...never was really dying to go back. It was open for lunch and more days than Hudson St. was...so...for spontaneity...it was convenient.

I am curious about the new Papa's in Robbinsville....though....have only been to Papa's once, and it was good. But, another place I went to because I was in Trenton and it was open for lunch.

Look forward to the CIA-coded report from the dumpster.

Gary just did it Chick's way.  My wife's grandparents were patrons of the Hudson St. location since its inception.  Chick was making pies into the late 80s with Gary kinda as his apprentice.  My wife swears that Chick made the best pies at the location back in the 80s with Gary a close second and Sammy obviously not far behind.  I think its more of a nostalgia thing though rather than actual difference.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on August 24, 2013, 02:52:17 PM
Norma,

You might ask them if they would sell you a dough ball to take home and bake in your home oven.  A lot of pizza places will do that if you ask nicely.  Bring along your digital scale and immediately weigh the dough ball after purchase.  This would provide some valuable information if you can pull it off.   :D

--Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2013, 02:53:17 PM
Been in Hamilton for awhile.  Bill has already been feeding me too much.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 24, 2013, 02:57:39 PM
Norma,

You might ask them if they would sell you a dough ball to take home and bake in your home oven.  A lot of pizza places will do that if you ask nicely.  Bring along your digital scale and immediately weigh the dough ball after purchase.  This would provide some valuable information if you can pull it off.   :D

--Tim
Believe me Tim, Norma didn't start doing this jus last month.  ;D
Amongst the elite dumpster diving crowd she is known as "No Nonsense Norma"!  8)
Trip-N!!  :-D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 24, 2013, 04:50:05 PM
Glad to hear you will be trying a DeLorenzos tomato pie, Norma!! Hope it's not anti-climactic after all the hype! Lol

I think it won't be...IMO, the best pie ever
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2013, 07:02:45 PM
Best pizza ever!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2013, 09:00:41 PM
Hands down the Robbinsville location was the best.  Did purchase some dough balls from the Sloan location though.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: RockyMountainPie on August 25, 2013, 01:09:42 AM
Believe me Tim, Norma didn't start doing this jus last month.  ;D
Amongst the elite dumpster diving crowd she is known as "No Nonsense Norma"!  8)
Trip-N!!  :-D

Right on Bob!  You're one of my most favorite posters on this entire forum!  I've followed Norma's exploits and even enjoyed some videos of the charming effect she has on pizza guys.   ;D. They really have no chance against her when she's on her A game.

Norma, Best pizza ever?  WOW!  That's saying something coming from you.  So happy that you had such a great experience and can hardly wait for you to post about your adventures here!

--Tim
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 08:29:18 PM
These are some of the photos from De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville.  I will post more when I get them resized.  I also took a video that I will post as soon as it is finished uploading and is processed.  Some of the photos are a little blurry.  The counter was high, so it was hard to take the photos.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 08:32:12 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 08:41:33 PM
Trenton Bill nicknamed me Johnny Cash since I was dressed in all black.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 08:53:42 PM
This is the video I took at De Lorenzo's.  The counter was high so it might not be the best. 

http://youtu.be/9CphSlnR8xk (http://youtu.be/9CphSlnR8xk)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 09:28:09 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 09:28:46 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 09:34:26 PM
The pizza we had at De Lorenzo's was a small pizza and measured 14".

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:04:27 PM
These are the photos from the De Lorenzo's on Sloan.  The man on the left has been working for De Lorenzo's for 52 years.  I would say he is a very dedicated employee.  The pizza we had had Sloan was also a small pizza and measured 13".  De Lorenzo's on Sloan did sell me two dough balls.  The dough balls were for a small and a large pizza.  One thing I found very interesting at both De Lorenzo's was there did not appear to be any fermentation bubbles in the dough balls or skins. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:10:04 PM
At both De Lorenzo's locations we had about a 10 minute wait until we got a table.  Both De Lorenzo's locations had a lot of people eating their pizzas.  Both locations are really big.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:15:53 PM
I have a memory card in my camera that doesn't hold a lot of photos and I had to delete some to be able to take some photos at the second De Lorenzo's on Sloan.  For a little while I thought I had deleted all the photos from the De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville, because I can delete all photos taken on a certain date at once. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:19:26 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:30:37 PM
I asked how long the pizzas are baked at the Sloan's location and the two piemen answered me and said usually 8 minutes unless someone orders a pizza with more toppings, or want a pizza that is charred more than ours was.  I didn't know how the pizza would be so we didn't say anything about baking the pizza longer.  At some other people tables the pizzas did look baked more than our did. 

I really don't know how long the pizzas were being baked at the De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville.  I was too busy trying to chat, look at everything and take photos.  We were seated in a corner where I couldn't time the bakes at Robbinsville.  I didn't see any of the piemen changing decks to bake a pizza though at either location, but I could have missed something because there was too much to watch at once.  The cheese at the Sloan location is Grande.  At the Sloan location they use a oil to drizzle oil on their pizzas that is 10% olive oil and 80% soybean oil.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:39:53 PM
The weights of the dough balls that were purchased at the De Lorenzo's on Sloan weighed 11.2 ounces. for the small pizza, or 317 grams, and 16.7 ounces or 473 grams for the large size pizza.  Of course there is flour on the dough balls that wasn't weighed.  The dough balls are frozen now. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 25, 2013, 10:52:07 PM
Sounds like you had fun Norma and learned a few things too !  :chef: I'm curious which locations pizzas you liked best, but I think I already know :) 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 10:59:52 PM
Sounds like you had fun Norma and learned a few things too !  :chef: I'm curious which locations pizzas you liked best, but I think I already know :)

Bob,

I did have a lot of fun.  I did like the De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville the best.  I have no idea how they make pizza that is that good.  It almost reminded me a of cracker style crust, but much different.  In each bite there was different taste and I really liked that.  The bottom of that pie looked burnt in some places, but it sure didn't taste burnt at all.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 25, 2013, 11:03:44 PM
Bob,

I did have a lot of fun.  I did like the De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville the best.  I have no idea how they make pizza that is that good.  It almost reminded me a of cracker style crust, but much different.  In each bite there was different taste and I really liked that.  The bottom of that pie looked burnt in some places, but it sure didn't taste burnt at all.

Norma
Yep, that Robbinsville pie looked like a must try to me....I hope I get up that way soon. Glad you had a great time and I hope Trenton Bill behaved himself!  ;D   j/k
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 11:05:03 PM
Some cheeses and tomato products I purchased at ShopRite in NJ.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 11:07:54 PM
Yep, that Robbinsville pie looked like a must try to me....I hope I get up that way soon. Glad you had a great time and I hope Trenton Bill behaved himself!  ;D   j/k

Bob,

I do hope you get to try De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville.  ;D I think you would really like their pizzas.  I hope you get up this way soon too.  I could tell you some funny things Trenton Bill said, but will keep them to myself.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2013, 11:14:25 PM
I can only wish I would have seen the name on that bag of cheese (5th photo down) at Reply 324 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275393.html#msg275393 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275393.html#msg275393)  but things were happening so fast I didn't get to see the name on that bag of shredded cheese and also on another bag that was opened right after that.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 26, 2013, 01:33:47 AM
Thats not a grande bag? Sure looks like one to me...

Glad you liked the pizza Norma!! I wish I was back home after seeing the pics! Im going back to NJ in Oct and will def be passing through DeLorenzos and Nacys Townehouse in Rahway!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 26, 2013, 08:14:20 AM
Thats not a grande bag? Sure looks like one to me...

Glad you liked the pizza Norma!! I wish I was back home after seeing the pics! Im going back to NJ in Oct and will def be passing through DeLorenzos and Nacys Townehouse in Rahway!
The colors are right but I think the printing/layout if off........can anyone super zoom in on that bag?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 08:53:05 AM
Thats not a grande bag? Sure looks like one to me...

Glad you liked the pizza Norma!! I wish I was back home after seeing the pics! Im going back to NJ in Oct and will def be passing through DeLorenzos and Nacys Townehouse in Rahway!

Hobbs,

Trenton Bill and I both really loved De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville.  It has been over ten years that Trenton Bill tried a De Lorenzo's pizza. Bill did eat them when they were made in the coal-fired oven years ago and said the pizza we had Saturday tasted almost the same.

Glad to hear you will be going back to NJ in October and eating De Lorenzo's pizzas.  ;D

The colors are right but I think the printing/layout if off........can anyone super zoom in on that bag?

Bob,

I have a 21" screen on my computer monitor and I used that photo to use as a screensaver, but still couldn't see what was on that label.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 08:59:59 AM
I wonder if anyone thinks I should use the small dough ball I purchased at De Lorenzo's on Sloan to try and make a pizza tommorow?  I think, but am not sure that dough ball made a pizza that was a little too thick.  I have these dressing now.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 10:12:03 AM
Norma,

Thank you for the photos and video. I have been studying them for more clues. However, did you learn anything that we did not previously know as to the Robbinsville location? And from what you could tell, were we wrong in anything that we previously posted? Do you have any other observations worth noting? You mentioned not seeing fermentation bubbles but I wondered if there were other observations of note.

One thing that I noticed is that the squeeze bottle oil containers shown in your photos seemed to contain an oil that was lighter in color than in the Robbinsville photos we were previously examined. I also see that Sammy used a metal oil can. His father, Gary, used to do the same. Like father, like son.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 10:36:29 AM
The weights of the dough balls that were purchased at the De Lorenzo's on Sloan weighed 11.2 ounces. for the small pizza, or 317 grams, and 16.7 ounces or 473 grams for the large size pizza.  Of course there is flour on the dough balls that wasn't weighed.  The dough balls are frozen now. 
Norma,

Irrespective of the size of pizza you and Trenton Bill were served at De Lorenzo/Sloan, assuming that the two dough balls you purchased are for 14" and 16" pizzas, which are the two pizza sizes that Rick De Lorenzo mentioned to you recently at his Facebook page, the corresponding thickness factors are as follows:

11.2 ounces (14"): TF = 11.2 (3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276
16.7 ounces (16"): TF = 16.7/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08306

In actual practice, unless one uses a scale to weigh the dough balls, their weights can vary from one dough ball to another, as can the sizes of the pizzas made from the dough balls. For example, if 11.2 ounces of dough was used to make your 13" pizza, and assuming no shrinkage during baking, the thickness factor would be 11.2/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.08438.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: DenaliPete on August 26, 2013, 10:38:59 AM
Norma, in using your recipe I was able to turn out a great pizza in the Blackstone oven.  I cooked for my parents, and I believe they preferred this pizza to the Emergency Lehmann dough.

You've also converted me to applying sauce after the cheese.  Something about that just works for me.

I'd like to try this recipe with a sourdough starter, but I'm not really clear how I would convert over with any degree of reliability.

DenaliPete
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 10:46:52 AM
Norma,

Thank you for the photos and video. I have been studying them for more clues. However, did you learn anything that we did not previously know as to the Robbinsville location? And from what you could tell, were we wrong in anything that we previously posted? Do you have any other observations worth noting? You mentioned not seeing fermentation bubbles but I wondered if there were other observations of note.

One thing that I noticed is that the squeeze bottle oil containers shown in your photos seemed to contain an oil that was lighter in color than in the Robbinsville photos we were previously examined. I also see that Sammy used a metal oil can. His father, Gary, used to do the same. Like father, like son.

Peter

Peter,

I wish I would have seen dough boxes at the Robbinsville location, but none where anywhere to be seen.  Since the counter was so high I had to stand on my tippy toes sometimes to be able to see what was going on.   I would have liked to see if maybe cornmeal or semolina was used in those dough boxes.  I think the piemen pulled those dough balls out from somewhere underneath the counter where they were working on opening the dough balls.  At least it appeared that way to me.  They did have piemen that just pounds the dough.  I asked if that was fun and the one pieman says he likes to do that.  I really didn't see any cornmeal or semolina used in opening he dough balls, but maybe I missed that.  It appeared to me like they were only using flour.  As I posted I wish I would have been able to see the label on those cheese packages they opened.  To me it didn't look like a lot of cheese is used on a pizza.  I found it interesting how the piemen put a pile on skins on top of one another.  They didn't appear to stick to each other at all.  The dough seemed strong while they were opening and stretching it.  I did ask if they tossed or twirled their skins, but they said no they didn't do that.  The dough balls appeared to be drier to me than what my dough balls normally are.  I tried to observe where the dough is made, but that is behind closed doors.  There is no side door to the kitchen that can be viewed from outside. 

As I get my thoughts together on all what I saw maybe I can post more. 

You are right that the oil did appear lighter to me to in color than the Robbinsville photos that we previously examined.  I don't know if that big yellow container held more oil or not, but it might have. Bill is somewhat of a super taster and he said the oil used at the Robbinsville location had a lot better taste in the baked pizzas than what the oil was at the Sloan location.  I did notice a much different taste in the pizza at the Sloan location, but I couldn't pinpoint it was the oil. 

I might have some other ideas about what tomato products the Robbinsville location uses, but don't think that would be anything new.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 12:39:42 PM
I wonder if anyone thinks I should use the small dough ball I purchased at De Lorenzo's on Sloan to try and make a pizza tommorow?  I think, but am not sure that dough ball made a pizza that was a little too thick.  I have these dressing now.
Norma,

You could use the smaller dough ball but trim it back to 10 ounces and make a 14" pizza out of it. That might be a good test of the crust thickness, that is, to see if it is closer to the thickness of the crust you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 12:55:29 PM
I can only wish I would have seen the name on that bag of cheese (5th photo down) at Reply 324 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275393.html#msg275393 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275393.html#msg275393)  but things were happening so fast I didn't get to see the name on that bag of shredded cheese and also on another bag that was opened right after that.
Norma,

A typical bag of Grande shredded cheese is as shown below. The contents of the bag may vary, as well as the product designation, but the overall appearance is pretty much the same for all of the Grande shredded mozzarella cheeses and blends.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 26, 2013, 01:13:30 PM
Gotta be a Grande bag...you can see the seal lined up perfectly in the upper left hand corner...

Of course, he COULD be holding a different brand bag upside down. Grande is my final answer  :)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 01:52:57 PM
Gotta be a Grande bag...you can see the seal lined up perfectly in the upper left hand corner...

Of course, he COULD be holding a different brand bag upside down. Grande is my final answer  :)
Hobbs,

Not long before De Lorenzo/Robbinsville opened for business, one of our members posted this relative to the supposed use of Grande at the old De Lorenzo/Hudson location:

Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5223.msg44262.html#msg44262)

So, since Robbinsville went to great pains to copy the Hudson business from a pizza standpoint, and if Chick (Sammy's grandfather), at age 85, was in the know as to what Hudson was exactly doing as of 2007 (he turned the business over to Sammy's father and mother in 1987), Grande can't be ruled out

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 26, 2013, 03:16:18 PM
Well....well after they moved to Robbinsville, it was still Sorrento. (Don't know if they've changed since.)  Before that it was some NJ supplier; no big name. Before that it was Maggio, but they found it "inconsistent", I was told from the maestros themselves.

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 26, 2013, 03:51:49 PM
We need to crack the code!!!!

Now that Norma has the dough balls...hopefully she can reverse engineer!!!  >:D

I find it curious the notion they mixed red pack + 6-in-1...Is this confirmed?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 03:55:09 PM
Hobbs,

Norma has dough balls from De Lorenzo Pizza, in Hamilton, not from De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Hobbs on August 26, 2013, 03:57:22 PM
Ahhh crud....

At least she tasted it though...that's all we need hopefully!
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 26, 2013, 04:26:45 PM
Yeah...that's why even discussing the "Pizza" place in this thread only adds [unwarranted] confusion and diversion.  >:(
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 05:24:01 PM
Yeah...that's why even discussing the "Pizza" place in this thread only adds [unwarranted] confusion and diversion.  >:(
Stuart,

There is an element of truth to what you say but as someone who has worked closely with Norma since she has been on the forum, I can tell you that she has an enormous curiosity that compels her to explore just about everything that pertains to pizza, and that includes the Tomato Pie. Also, she may not be in a position to make another trip to NJ anytime soon to visit tomato pie specialists. The other thing to know about Norma is that she is a worker. Maybe the hardest worker on the forum.

My job is to keep us focused and on track. That is what I do. But, that said, there might be a benefit to Norma conducting a hydration bake test on a sample of the De Lorenzo Sloan dough to see if we can calculate the hydration of the Sloan dough. There is no way of knowing, of course, buy that might shed some light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing in the way of hydration. Norma could also conduct a gluten mass test but I believe we already know what flour De Lorenzo/Sloan is using.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 05:52:05 PM
Norma,

Irrespective of the size of pizza you and Trenton Bill were served at De Lorenzo/Sloan, assuming that the two dough balls you purchased are for 14" and 16" pizzas, which are the two pizza sizes that Rick De Lorenzo mentioned to you recently at his Facebook page, the corresponding thickness factors are as follows:

11.2 ounces (14"): TF = 11.2 (3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276
16.7 ounces (16"): TF = 16.7/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08306

In actual practice, unless one uses a scale to weigh the dough balls, their weights can vary from one dough ball to another, as can the sizes of the pizzas made from the dough balls. For example, if 11.2 ounces of dough was used to make your 13" pizza, and assuming no shrinkage during baking, the thickness factor would be 11.2/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.08438.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for converting the weights of the dough balls from the De Lorenzo's at Sloan into thickness factors.    I would think that was a little too thick compared to the pizza we had at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
Norma, in using your recipe I was able to turn out a great pizza in the Blackstone oven.  I cooked for my parents, and I believe they preferred this pizza to the Emergency Lehmann dough.

You've also converted me to applying sauce after the cheese.  Something about that just works for me.

I'd like to try this recipe with a sourdough starter, but I'm not really clear how I would convert over with any degree of reliability.

DenaliPete

DenaliPete,

I am glad when using my recipe you were able to turn out a great pizza in the BS.  I am also glad you like applying the sauce after the cheese. 

About using a sourdough starter you might look at Craig's method.  If you need help finding that let me know.  How soon do you want to make your pizza after you make the dough and are you going to control temperature ferment or cold temperature ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 06:03:49 PM
Norma,

You could use the smaller dough ball but trim it back to 10 ounces and make a 14" pizza out of it. That might be a good test of the crust thickness, that is, to see if it is closer to the thickness of the crust you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.

Peter

Peter,

I can cut the dough ball back to 10 ounces to try and make a De Lorenzo's pizza tomorrow.  Do you have any idea of how much of cheese and combinations of Red Pack and 6-in-1s that I might need to add as dressings.  Also do you have any idea of the methods for the bake? 

I took some semolina out of a bag and also some light roasted cornmeal to show the colors of the two of them side by side.  My semolina really isn't the regular kind of semolina though, but it can be seen how similar the colors are when they are blended in the second photo.

I also received my sample bag of flour today and the recipes from GM.  I guess it is too late to try and make a De Lorenzo's dough this evening for early tomorrow night.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 06:10:29 PM
Norma,

A typical bag of Grande shredded cheese is as shown below. The contents of the bag may vary, as well as the product designation, but the overall appearance is pretty much the same for all of the Grande shredded mozzarella cheeses and blends.

Peter

Peter,

I don't recall all that writing on the two bags of shredded cheese the pieman opened at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville.  I only recall some writing on the center of the plastic bag.  Thanks for the photo.  Maybe I can look at Google images to see if there are photos of the Sorrento shredded part-skim mozzarella in a plastic bag.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 06:21:48 PM
We need to crack the code!!!!

Now that Norma has the dough balls...hopefully she can reverse engineer!!!  >:D

I find it curious the notion they mixed red pack + 6-in-1...Is this confirmed?

Hobbs,

I really can't tell you how I found out but I did see more Red Packs than 6-in-1's at Robbinsville.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 06:25:42 PM

My job is to keep us focused and on track. That is what I do. But, that said, there might be a benefit to Norma conducting a hydration bake test on a sample of the De Lorenzo Sloan dough to see if we can calculate the hydration of the Sloan dough. There is no way of knowing, of course, buy that might shed some light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing in the way of hydration. Norma could also conduct a gluten mass test but I believe we already know what flour De Lorenzo/Sloan is using.

Peter

Peter,

If you want me do a hydration test on part of the big dough ball I can do that later this week.  I also could conduct a gluten mass test if you think it would be valuable in any way.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 06:26:46 PM
Norma,

You should use your best judgment on the amounts of cheese and sauce to use with the Sloan dough. You might look at the Robbinsville photos to get a feel as to the amounts of cheese and sauce to use, and also on a relative basis. But, in any event, the amount of cheese should be used sparingly.

As for the tomatoes, I would use two parts of the RedPack whole tomatoes in purée to one part 6-in-1 ground tomatoes with extra heavy purée. These are the canned tomatoes that you showed in photos in an earlier post.

Since it does not appear that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville used the top oven/bottom oven bake method, or vice versa, I would use your deck oven at work as you normally would but with a bake time along the lines mentioned in your visit to De Lorenzo/Sloan. I think you want the bake time to be long enough to get the charring of the crust without turning the pizza into a cracker. So, you may have to carefully monitor the bake temperature.

Congratulation on getting the Best Bakers flour from General Mills. Once you report back on your results with the Sloan clone pizza, hopefully I will be in a better position to come up with a Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you to try with the new flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 06:32:47 PM
I don't recall all that writing on the two bags of shredded cheese the pieman opened at De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville.  I only recall some writing on the center of the plastic bag.  Thanks for the photo.  Maybe I can look at Google images to see if there are photos of the Sorrento shredded part-skim mozzarella in a plastic bag.
Norma,

I was a step ahead of you. Earlier today, I did a search to identify foodservice versions of the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, including looking at Google Images, and came up empty. However, the parent company of Sorrento is fond of using the color red in the packaging materials for many of its retail bramds of its mozzarella cheeses.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 06:40:41 PM
If you want me do a hydration test on part of the big dough ball I can do that later this week.  I also could conduct a gluten mass test if you think it would be valuable in any way.
Norma,

A hydration bake test might be useful, if only to give us a general idea as to what De Lorenzo/Sloan might be using for a hydration value.

Since we have a good idea as to the flour that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using, there is no need to do a gluten mass test. However, if you would like to do the test to see how the GM Best Bakers flour stacks up gluten wise with other flours in the general protein category, such as the KABF, then the gluten mass test might be useful.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 07:05:25 PM
Norma,

You should use your best judgment on the amounts of cheese and sauce to use with the Sloan dough. You might look at the Robbinsville photos to get a feel as to the amounts of cheese and sauce to use, and also on a relative basis. But, in any event, the amount of cheese should be used sparingly.

As for the tomatoes, I would use two parts of the RedPack whole tomatoes in purée to one part 6-in-1 ground tomatoes with extra heavy purée. These are the canned tomatoes that you showed in photos in an earlier post.

Since it does not appear that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville used the top oven/bottom oven bake method, or vice versa, I would use your deck oven at work as you normally would but with a bake time along the lines mentioned in your visit to De Lorenzo/Sloan. I think you want the bake time to be long enough to get the charring of the crust without turning the pizza into a cracker. So, you may have to carefully monitor the bake temperature.

Congratulation on getting the Bakers Best flour from General Mills. Once you report back on your results with the Sloan clone pizza, hopefully I will be in a better position to come up with a Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you to try with the new flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts on what I should use as dressing and how I should bake.  The dough balls and skins did look the same to me at both De Lorenzo's locations and the methods use to prepared the dough for a pizza also looked the same.  I know looks can be decieving though.

The bake might be a little tricky, because De Lorenzo's ovens at both locations have higher head spaces than I do. 

My bottom deck oven ranges from about 525-545 degrees F.

I am anxious to try the new flour out.

BTW, I did see the same flour use to make the dough balls at the Sloan's location and it didn't appear that there was any semolina or cornmeal in those dough boxes.  The dough boxes were near where one would go into the kitchen, and I saw that is where they got my dough balls.  Those dough boxes were a little to far for me to really tell though if there might have been any cornmeal or semolina in the bottom, but my dough balls I purchased didn't show any signs of cornmeal or semolina on the bottom of them.  There also was other brown dough balls right beside the other dough balls. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 07:10:03 PM
There also was other brown dough balls right beside the other dough balls. 
Norma,

What are brown dough balls? Did you mean 'blown' dough balls?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 07:12:20 PM
Norma,

I was a step ahead of you. Earlier today, I did a search to identify foodservice versions of the Sorrento mozzarella cheese, including looking at Google Images, and came up empty. However, the parent company of Sorrento is fond of using the color red in the packaging materials for many of its retail bramds of its mozzarella cheeses.

Peter

Peter,

You are always one step ahead of me.   :-D

If you look down in this link it gives the code numbers for the Sorrento mozzarellas shred.  Maybe you or I could call them from the number at the bottom of the link to see if we could get a photo and some other information about their Low Moisture Part Skim Mozzarella shred. http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds (http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 07:19:40 PM
Norma,

What are brown dough balls? Did you mean 'blown' dough balls?

Peter

Peter,

If you look at the menu I posted at Reply 332 (8th photo down) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275425.html#msg275425 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275425.html#msg275425) and squint your eyes it can be seen De Lorenzo's on Sloan offers Gluten free and Wheat Crusts in addition to their regular crusts.  I asked what the brown dough balls were and the man told me wheat dough balls.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 07:25:44 PM
Norma,

A hydration bake test might be useful, if only to give us a general idea as to what De Lorenzo/Sloan might be using for a hydration value.

Since we have a good idea as to the flour that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using, there is no need to do a gluten mass test. However, if you would like to do the test to see how the GM Best Bakers flour stacks up gluten wise with other flours in the general protein category, such as the KABF, then the gluten mass test might be useful.

Peter

Peter,

I will see about doing the hydration test and the gluten mass test later this week.  I need to go to the other threads where I did those tests to refresh my memory first. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 07:32:01 PM
Norma,

I forgot to ask you about salt in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust. I had asked about salt levels before in the Trenton thread but came away with the impression that the De Lorenzo/Hudson crusts were not overly salty. Can you give me your perception of the Robbinsville salt quantity?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 08:00:49 PM
Norma,

I forgot to ask you about salt in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust. I had asked about salt levels before in the Trenton thread but came away with the impression that the De Lorenzo/Hudson crusts were not overly salty. Can you give me your perception of the Robbinsville salt quantity?

Peter

Peter,

To me and Bill the De Lorenzo's crust at Robbinsville seemed normal in the taste of salt.  The crust was not overly salty.  I would say about the normal amount of Kosher salt at 1.75%, but then I really don't know and they might be using regular salt. 

I have one other question I wanted to ask you.  Should I start defrosting the frozen dough ball tonight, or let it go until tomorrow morning?  I froze them right away when we got to Bills home after we weighed the dough balls.  I put the both dough balls in individual plastic bags and used a Styrofoam container with ice in it to bring the dough balls and cheeses home, so the dough balls did stay frozen until I got home.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2013, 08:31:51 PM
Norma,

If you go back to the original Robbinsville photos, you will see salt containers in the regular tube-like shape. An example is the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm) . I would imagine that the same type of salt is used for the dough as for other purposes.

How and when you defrost the frozen dough ball will depend on when you plan to use the dough ball at market. Frozen dough balls can be defrosted in the refrigerator overnight for use the next day, or for several hours at ambient temperature. The actual defrost time at ambient temperature will, of course, depend on that temperature. Of course, you can also use a combination of defrost time in the refrigerator and at ambient temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2013, 09:31:52 PM
Norma,

If you go back to the original Robbinsville photos, you will see salt containers in the regular tube-like shape. An example is the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3158_JPG.htm) . I would imagine that the same type of salt is used for the dough as for other purposes.

How and when you defrost the frozen dough ball will depend on when you plan to use the dough ball at market. Frozen dough balls can be defrosted in the refrigerator overnight for use the next day, or for several hours at ambient temperature. The actual defrost time at ambient temperature will, of course, depend on that temperature. Of course, you can also use a combination of defrost time in the refrigerator and at ambient temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I believe you are right that they use the same type of salt in their dough like the regular tube-like containers you gave the link to.  I looked at the photos quickly again.  I really didn't see much, if any cornmeal or semolina like I saw at the Sloan location.

Thanks for your thoughts on what to do with the frozen dough ball.  I know if I let a frozen dough ball out at market it doesn't take too long to defrost.  Tomorrow is supposed to be in the high 80's, so I might wait until tomorrow morning to take the frozen dough ball out of the freezer and then put it in the pizza prep fridge until I am ready to use it.  I probably won't be able to use the dough ball to make a pizza until later in the day tomorrow.

I didn't post this before, but I did ask our waiter at the Robbinsville location if they sell dough balls and he said he doesn't think so.  I should have asked one of the piemen before I left if they sell dough balls.  I did tell the piemen that the tomato pie was delicious. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: DenaliPete on August 27, 2013, 12:32:01 PM
Question for you Norma,

Do you always add your oil after all the flour has been incorporated?

The reason I ask is that I seem to recall the last time I made this coming up with a fairly dry final dough that I may have had to add some water to (I can't quite recall).  Perhaps I just needed to adjust my water for the environment or something.

I guess primarily I'm curious why oil seems to go in at the end of most formulations that I see.

I am attempting to make this recipe with sourdough starter today using Craig's predictive model as you recommended.  Hoping to have dough balls ready to bake in 24 hours, we shall see.

Pete
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: DenaliPete on August 27, 2013, 12:44:05 PM
I am also curious if you ball your dough right away or do a bulk ferment first.  I apologize if I'm flooding you with questions.

Pete
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 09:53:31 PM
These are the photos of how the De Lorenzo's attempt went today.  The thickness factor seems fine, but the pizza wasn't exactly like De Lorenzo's pizza at Robbinsville.  There was too much flour, cornmeal or semolina on the bottom of the small dough ball from the dough ball I purchased at De Lorenzo's in Sloan.  The pizza was similar to De Lorenzo's pizza though in that it was crunchy it parts of the baked pizza and was good.  I think Steve and I didn't add enough of sugar to the tomatoes and didn't use enough of the Maggio shred cheese though. 

Steve and I tasted the dough ball and from what we could tell there isn't any salt in their dough ball from eating a piece of the dough ball raw a couple of times.  :o The dough ball was scaled to 10.1 ounces, because we didn't know how much extra flour, cornmeal or semolina was on the dough ball.  The dough ball was tempered at room temperature for over an hour at 93 degrees F.  The dough ball didn't seem to rise at all and it was defrosted a long while before we tempered it. 

At 2:00 PM we formed a dough ball with the leftover parts that were cut off.  At 3:30 PM it didn't look like the leftover dough ball was fermenting at all, so we did the poppy seed trick to see if there was any yeast in the dough.  At  6:30 PM it can be seen how much the dough ball did ferment, so there is some yeast in the dough.  It was hot at market today so I would have thought that extra piece of dough ball would have fermented more in the amount of time we let it ferment at room temperature. 

The dough ball felt very dry and did tear a little after I pounded and stretch it over my marble slab.  The dough is delicate in my opinion. 

The leftover pieces of dough that were formed into a dough ball felt very pliable and we could shape it into anything we wanted.  The smiley face was just one thing we did with the extra dough ball.

The bake time was 8 ½ minutes for this attempt.  I think the bottom didn't get charred at all because of the flour, cornmeal or semolina.  At least it tasted much better than the pizza Bill and I ate at De Lorenzo's on Sloan.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
If there was really no salt added to the dough at De Lorenzo's on Sloan, the crust didn't seem to suffer too much with the texture and taste of the final bake pizza with the other ingredients added.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 10:01:37 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 10:06:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 10:09:50 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 10:30:31 PM
Question for you Norma,

Do you always add your oil after all the flour has been incorporated?

The reason I ask is that I seem to recall the last time I made this coming up with a fairly dry final dough that I may have had to add some water to (I can't quite recall).  Perhaps I just needed to adjust my water for the environment or something.

I guess primarily I'm curious why oil seems to go in at the end of most formulations that I see.

I am attempting to make this recipe with sourdough starter today using Craig's predictive model as you recommended.  Hoping to have dough balls ready to bake in 24 hours, we shall see.

Pete

Pete,

I have been adding the oil after the flour, salt, IDY, sugar and water are incorporated for about a 1 ½ minutes of mixing.  I drizzle the oil in after waiting for about 5-10 minutes.  I found that information from Tom Lehmann and Joe Kelley and it seems to work well for me.  You might need to adjust the water for the environment you are using.  I found out just this week that the new bag of All Trumps flour I opened just yesterday did perform better with a higher water amount.  I have a hard time even knowing what to do and I do use a Hobart mixer, so I guess it mixes better than some mixers. 

The oil added after the other ingredients are incorporated is supposed to help the gluten form better so the oil doesn't interfere with that. 

Let us know how our recipe with sourdough works out using Craig's predictive model.  I found his model works well with Neapolitan doughs I have tried with controlled temperature ferments. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2013, 10:43:13 PM
I am also curious if you ball your dough right away or do a bulk ferment first.  I apologize if I'm flooding you with questions.

Pete

Pete,

You aren't flooding me with questions.  There is a lot I don't know about any pizza dough. That is why I am always asking questions and trying to learn about any pizza dough.  I do ball my dough balls right away after I cut, scale, ball and oil the dough balls, but then I make a lot more dough balls at a time than a regular home pizza maker does.  I also make the dough in much different temperatures throughout the year.  Until I cut, scale, ball and oil my dough balls it takes me a lot longer than most home pizza makers.  I can see the gluten relax until I am finished balling and oiling all of my dough balls.  A home pizza maker might not be able to see that if they are only making one dough ball or a few.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 06:43:00 AM
After looking again at the photo I posted, I think in the trash can right beside that pieman that was holding the empty bag of cheese, it now appears to me the name on the bag in the trash can is Sorrento.  Does anyone else see the same thing if the photo is enlarged?

I didn't see this happen when I was at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville, but after reading more on the Trenton thread and going over my photos from my visit to De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville it does appear to me that more cheese might be applied after the pizza is baked some.

Photos below of what I think is Sorrento cheese in the trash can and also how the cheese looks like on top of some of the tomato sauce.  It appears to me that the cheese on top of the tomato sauce is not melted the same as the cheese below the sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 08:01:27 AM
I neglected to post how much Maggio shredded cheese was used on the pizza that was made yesterday.  Steve measured it at 3 1/2 ounces.  I also neglected to post that 1/2 can of 6-in-1s was added to the whole can of Red Pack plum tomatoes.  All the plum tomatoes in the Red Pack can looked uniform in their sizes.  Steve crushed the Red Pack tomatoes by hand, before the 6-in-1s sauce was added.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 10:44:35 AM
Norma,

Thank you very much for your report on the tomato pie that you made using the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Since members and articles suggested that the two competing De Lorenzos used different doughs that produced different results, I think it was helpful to get your feedback on the thickness factor aspect as it relates to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville may be using to make its dough. In terms of taste, I would also expect that the pizza you made with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would have a different taste profile because De Lorenzo/Sloan is most likely using different tomatoes and cheese, if only to differentiate its pizzas from those sold at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and, before that, at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

I look forward to the hydration bake test should you decide to conduct same with the large dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. It is hard to say if that test, if it can be conducted to produce results that appear credible, will shed any light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using in the way of hydration, but any information on that matter at this point would be welcome.

Speaking of hydration, two days ago I made a test De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be an upper limit on hydration for such a dough. I used a hydration of 59% (plus 1% olive oil/soybean oil blend in an 80/20 ratio). In the absolute, a hydration of around 59% might not seem like a high hydration value. However, for a dough that is expected to bake for around 10 minutes at around 550 degrees F and not turn to a cracker, I believe the dough has to have enough water in it to allow the dough to survive a 10-minute bake time and yet have parts that are a mixture of chewy/soft and hard (cracker like). It seems to me that there is a delicate balance between hydration, skin size (which is related to thickness factor), the amounts of cheese, tomatoes and toppings (in a collective sense), bake temperature and bake time. Not balancing all of these considerations can lead to some fairly wide variations in the outcomes, including crusts that are too hard or overcooked or overcharred. Remember, also, that people are making the pizzas, and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.

For my test dough, I used General Mills all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that we believe De Lorenzo/Robbinsvile is using (and quite likely by De Lorenzo/Sloan) and that you now have in your possession. To improve the hydration of that blend and also to achieve a more robust dough, I sifted the flour and used my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer with all three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook). I ended up kneading the dough at a relatively high speed (4 setting) for a few minutes in order to more fully develop the gluten matrix. I was not concerned that the dough might not yield an open and airy crust or crumb because that does not appear to be a hallfmark of a typical De Lorenzo crust, although you may want some volume to create insulative properties in the crust and crumb during the bake. I was mainly looking for a durable dough that would have sufficient extensibility but still be easy to handle on the bench to form a skin. For my test, I used a thickness factor of 0.065. That value might have to be lowered a bit in practice to compensate for the semolina flour and bench flour that are used in the course of the preparation and management of the final dough.

The amount of yeast (0.40% IDY) was selected to produce a one-day cold fermented dough. Reports to date indicate that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a cold fermented dough of at least one day and possibly up to three days. I settled on one day because that is what you would perhaps have to use at market. The amount of yeast was also selected to minimize a fast or excessive fermentation with a lot of bubbling since you indicated that you did not see any bubbles at either of the two De Lorenzo locations you visited. When the dough was done, I put it into my storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl with lid), along with some semolina flour that I had sprinkled on the bottom of the storage container. The dough ball within the container then went into my refrigerator without the lid for about two hours, to speed up the cooling process and not have the dough ferment too quickly. After the two hours, I put the lid on the storage container.

After exactly twenty four hours in the refrigerator, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a bit more than a doubling). There were no signs of bubbling, either on the surface of the dough ball or at the bottom of the dough ball. In preparation for forming the skin, I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the size of the dough ball with the dough balls shown in the video that you made and posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403), I flattened the dough ball and compared it with the flattened dough balls that I saw in the video. To my eye, the sizes looked to be very similar. To open the dough ball, I used the techniques shown in the video, including draping the skin over the edge of my counter. I had no problem doing that and ended up with a nice 14" skin. And no bubbles. I was not able to toss or spin the skin and, had I tried to do so, the skin would have run away from me and would have had holes in it. That alone says that the dough has a relatively high hydration. The key seems to be to work fast to open up the skin to the desired size, and to make sure that there is enough bench flour to keep the skin from sticking to anything. In my case, the skin did not stick to my peel or work surface, even after letting the skin sit there for a few hours after it was made.

Throughout the process of forming the skin, I tried to remember to end up with the semolina side down even though I did not sense that was happening in the video you posted.

I mention all of the above to give you the benefit of my logic and thought processes. In your case, with the right flour, and with a mixer that can produce a more robust dough than my home KitchenAid stand mixer can produce, you should be able to do much better than I can.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 10:57:26 AM
I didn't see this happen when I was at De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville, but after reading more on the Trenton thread and going over my photos from my visit to De Lorenzo's at Robbinsville it does appear to me that more cheese might be applied after the pizza is baked some.

Photos below of what I think is Sorrento cheese in the trash can and also how the cheese looks like on top of some of the tomato sauce.  It appears to me that the cheese on top of the tomato sauce is not melted the same as the cheese below the sauce.
Norma,

Those are good points. Trying to put everything together from what was reported in the Trenton thread, which I re-read in its entirety last week, and in this thread, it appears that sometimes De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville would add either more cheese or sauce after an inkitial bake. Maybe they do this on the spur of the moment when they think it is needed. The idea of adding more cheese after an intiall bake was discussed earlier in this thread at Reply 192 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273369/topicseen.html#msg273369 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg273369/topicseen.html#msg273369).

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 28, 2013, 12:58:01 PM
Yes, Pete...they do throw some extra cheese on top of the pie mid-way. I've always thought that was more cosmetic, as it isn't very much. They also put oil on the corniche/outer edges of the crust at that point, to allow for more charring, I think. (That's why you noted that Sam and his father had the spouted oil cans...for more precision, though, the ketchup squeeze container also works fine.)

Someone earlier raised an issue that has always puzzled me: do people allow a bulk ferment before cutting up, weighing and balling up? Or, do they do the cutting/weighing before the ferment really starts? (I've noticed that Robbinsville has a machine that spits out the balls, though I don't know if they have already fermented or not. I thought the machine was fun to watch...like those cannons they shoot teeshirts and hot dogs from at ballparks.)

I do feel a little goofy knowing so much about the Hudson/Robbinsville operation, but I am a very curious type, love pizza (making it and eating it) and....as I've said...if you're going to emulate something/someone, it might as well be the best. And, at Hudson, it was such an artisanal operation, it was pretty intimate and easy to ask questions and observe. But, I hope they wouldn't perceive this as spying/snooping...I was mainly curious and had no idea that someday I would actually try to make dough and buy a two-decker electric oven for my garage. I think Sam and his father saw someone with a similar passion and curiosity...hopefully.

At this point, I'm close enough to the holy grail to satisfy myself and my family...and still have the enthusiasm to go to Robbinsville whenever I can justify it. The best of all worlds, I think.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 01:19:07 PM
Someone earlier raised an issue that has always puzzled me: do people allow a bulk ferment before cutting up, weighing and balling up? Or, do they do the cutting/weighing before the ferment really starts? (I've noticed that Robbinsville has a machine that spits out the balls, though I don't know if they have already fermented or not. I thought the machine was fun to watch...like those cannons they shoot teeshirts and hot dogs from at ballparks.)
Stuart,

It sounds like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a dough divider/rounder. As you will note from the PMQ Think Tank thread at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10579&hilit=#p72831 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10579&hilit=#p72831), dough dividers/rounders start to make economic sense when daily production gets to around 300 dough balls a day. As one of the posters at the PMQTT noted in the above thread, dough dividers/rounders do a good job making tight dough balls. Also, the variations in weight from one dough ball to another are small (usually within a fraction of an ounce), so that means more consistent and more uniform product.

Most commercial pizza operators tend to do the division right after the dough comes out of the mixer although it is possible to let the dough rest in bulk for a while (usually to give the dough a head start on fermentation) before doing the division and scaling. To a great extent, it depends on the dough recipe, dough preparation protocol, and type of pizza. I suspect that there are also requirements that have to be satisfied to use dough dividers/rounders, such as maximum hydration values, oil quantities, other wet ingredients, etc. I'm sure that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville easily meets these requirements.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 04:01:32 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for your report on the tomato pie that you made using the small dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Since members and articles suggested that the two competing De Lorenzos used different doughs that produced different results, I think it was helpful to get your feedback on the thickness factor aspect as it relates to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville may be using to make its dough. In terms of taste, I would also expect that the pizza you made with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would have a different taste profile because De Lorenzo/Sloan is most likely using different tomatoes and cheese, if only to differentiate its pizzas from those sold at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and, before that, at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

I look forward to the hydration bake test should you decide to conduct same with the large dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. It is hard to say if that test, if it can be conducted to produce results that appear credible, will shed any light on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using in the way of hydration, but any information on that matter at this point would be welcome.

Speaking of hydration, two days ago I made a test De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be an upper limit on hydration for such a dough. I used a hydration of 59% (plus 1% olive oil/soybean oil blend in an 80/20 ratio). In the absolute, a hydration of around 59% might not seem like a high hydration value. However, for a dough that is expected to bake for around 10 minutes at around 550 degrees F and not turn to a cracker, I believe the dough has to have enough water in it to allow the dough to survive a 10-minute bake time and yet have parts that are a mixture of chewy/soft and hard (cracker like). It seems to me that there is a delicate balance between hydration, skin size (which is related to thickness factor), the amounts of cheese, tomatoes and toppings (in a collective sense), bake temperature and bake time. Not balancing all of these considerations can lead to some fairly wide variations in the outcomes, including crusts that are too hard or overcooked or overcharred. Remember, also, that people are making the pizzas, and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.

For my test dough, I used General Mills all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%, which is the protein content of the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that we believe De Lorenzo/Robbinsvile is using (and quite likely by De Lorenzo/Sloan) and that you now have in your possession. To improve the hydration of that blend and also to achieve a more robust dough, I sifted the flour and used my standard home KitchenAid stand mixer with all three attachments (whisk, flat beater and C-hook). I ended up kneading the dough at a relatively high speed (4 setting) for a few minutes in order to more fully develop the gluten matrix. I was not concerned that the dough might not yield an open and airy crust or crumb because that does not appear to be a hallfmark of a typical De Lorenzo crust, although you may want some volume to create insulative properties in the crust and crumb during the bake. I was mainly looking for a durable dough that would have sufficient extensibility but still be easy to handle on the bench to form a skin. For my test, I used a thickness factor of 0.065. That value might have to be lowered a bit in practice to compensate for the semolina flour and bench flour that are used in the course of the preparation and management of the final dough.

The amount of yeast (0.40% IDY) was selected to produce a one-day cold fermented dough. Reports to date indicate that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses a cold fermented dough of at least one day and possibly up to three days. I settled on one day because that is what you would perhaps have to use at market. The amount of yeast was also selected to minimize a fast or excessive fermentation with a lot of bubbling since you indicated that you did not see any bubbles at either of the two De Lorenzo locations you visited. When the dough was done, I put it into my storage container (a glass Pyrex bowl with lid), along with some semolina flour that I had sprinkled on the bottom of the storage container. The dough ball within the container then went into my refrigerator without the lid for about two hours, to speed up the cooling process and not have the dough ferment too quickly. After the two hours, I put the lid on the storage container.

After exactly twenty four hours in the refrigerator, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a bit more than a doubling). There were no signs of bubbling, either on the surface of the dough ball or at the bottom of the dough ball. In preparation for forming the skin, I let the dough temper at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the size of the dough ball with the dough balls shown in the video that you made and posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403), I flattened the dough ball and compared it with the flattened dough balls that I saw in the video. To my eye, the sizes looked to be very similar. To open the dough ball, I used the techniques shown in the video, including draping the skin over the edge of my counter. I had no problem doing that and ended up with a nice 14" skin. And no bubbles. I was not able to toss or spin the skin and, had I tried to do so, the skin would have run away from me and would have had holes in it. That alone says that the dough has a relatively high hydration. The key seems to be to work fast to open up the skin to the desired size, and to make sure that there is enough bench flour to keep the skin from sticking to anything. In my case, the skin did not stick to my peel or work surface, even after letting the skin sit there for a few hours after it was made.

Throughout the process of forming the skin, I tried to remember to end up with the semolina side down even though I did not sense that was happening in the video you posted.

I mention all of the above to give you the benefit of my logic and thought processes. In your case, with the right flour, and with a mixer that can produce a more robust dough than my home KitchenAid stand mixer can produce, you should be able to do much better than I can.

Peter

Peter,

I believe too that De Lorenzo/Sloan pizza would have a different taste than the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville because of they are using different ingredients on the final pizza. 

I will do the hydration bake test on part of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough later today if I find time.  As I posted before both of their doughs looked about the same and their methods of opening their dough balls, the pounding and stretching look about the same too, but that really doesn't tell if there exact percentages are the same in their dough.  I believe that are using the same flour though.

Thanks so much for doing another De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to test what might be the upper limit on hydration for such a dough.  I find it interesting what amount of water you used in combination with the oil blend.  I understand that it is quite hard to know what to do that a pizza doesn't turn into a cracker with the fairly long bake.  That was one thing that puzzled me at such high of a bake temperature and such a thin dough with minimal toppings how the pizza doesn't turn into a cracker pizza.  I don't know how you figured that balancing act out.  I know that people are making the pizzas and that can sometimes translate into inconsistent results.  Do you really believe the De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville location is using semolina or cornmeal in any preparation of their dough?  I did see the semolina/cornmeal on the bottom of the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough ball.  Thanks for telling me how you prepared the dough.  When you set-forth a formulation is that how I should mix the dough?  I find it interesting that using 0.40% IDY that the dough didn't so signs of bubbling at all on the surface or bottom of the dough ball.  I find the flattening part interesting too.  That is good that you could open the dough ball the using the same techniques the piemen used and you had now problems and no bubbles. 

Thank you for posting all you did to give me the benefit of your logic and though process.  I know I have the right flour now to try, but don't think I will use my Hobart mixer at first, because I would need to make too much dough in that mixer to start. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 04:43:54 PM
Yes, Pete...they do throw some extra cheese on top of the pie mid-way. I've always thought that was more cosmetic, as it isn't very much. They also put oil on the corniche/outer edges of the crust at that point, to allow for more charring, I think. (That's why you noted that Sam and his father had the spouted oil cans...for more precision, though, the ketchup squeeze container also works fine.)

I do feel a little goofy knowing so much about the Hudson/Robbinsville operation, but I am a very curious type, love pizza (making it and eating it) and....as I've said...if you're going to emulate something/someone, it might as well be the best. And, at Hudson, it was such an artisanal operation, it was pretty intimate and easy to ask questions and observe. But, I hope they wouldn't perceive this as spying/snooping...I was mainly curious and had no idea that someday I would actually try to make dough and buy a two-decker electric oven for my garage. I think Sam and his father saw someone with a similar passion and curiosity...hopefully.

At this point, I'm close enough to the holy grail to satisfy myself and my family...and still have the enthusiasm to go to Robbinsville whenever I can justify it. The best of all worlds, I think.


Stuart,

Thanks so much for the information about using oil on the outer edges when the pizzas might get more cheese at the De Lorenzo's Robbinsville location.  ;D I did use a little olive oil on the rim when the rim kept looking so white yesterday during the final minutes of the bake.  It is good to know that De Lorenzo's does the same thing. 

Thanks for the information about the dough/divider rounder too.  I wonder why in the article that Peter referenced at PMQ think tank the one poster said a dough/divider rounder could make a much tighter dough ball than a person can.  I always thought you just balled until the dough ball was tight and didn't know a tighter dough ball would make a better pizza. 

I am glad you also are a curious person and love making and eating pizza and have learned so much information about what they did at the De Lorenzo's Hudson St. location.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 04:47:49 PM
I called the phone number at the bottom of http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds (http://www.lactalisculinary.com/cheese/?productId=1569#shreds) and talked to two women today about the Sorrento mozzarella.  The first woman is following up with quality control and I should get a call or email from her tomorrow.  Another woman is helping me find a food broker in Pa. and she is going to send me information in an email about the Sorrento part skim shred mozzarellas.  There are two Sorrento part skim shred mozzarellas.  The one is RG and the other is MD.  The second lady told me that Sorrento is soon/or now is under the Galbani name and all Sorrento mozzarellas are now going to be named Galbani on the labels.  If anyone now sees the Galbani name on the mozzarella at the De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville location that is why they might see another cheese name other than Sorrento.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 04:58:11 PM
Norma,

The matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one. We have members who have said semolina but we have had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough maker and at least one other member say cornmeal. In this vein, if you look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm) , it appears that there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the top dough box shown in the photo. Yet, when I look at the video you recently posted, I do not seen signs of either semolina or cornmeal anywhere. Also, in all the photos and videos I have seen, I have not seen any brushes that are typically used to brush the burnt remains of semolina or cornmeal from the deck ovens.

If either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what would matter most to me at this point is the purpose of using the semolina or cornmeal. Is it for flavor or texture purposes, or is it to keep the skins from sticking to the peels or the decks of the ovens? If the latter, that would be instructive because it would suggest a fairly high hydration dough. You don't need a release agent for a low hydration dough or one with moderate hydration.

When you and Trenton Bill ate the pizzas at the two De Lorenzo locations, did you detect the presence of either semolina or cornmeal?

When you make your De Lorenzo clone dough at hone using your home stand mixer, I would make it as you usually do. I went to more draconian measures because I was using all-purpose flour whereas you will be using a flour (the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour) that has a natural 12.9% protein content, not a manufactured one using vital wheat gluten. Your dough should be a more robust one than the one I made. And that would be even more true were you to use your Hobart mixer at market.

I pretty much have in mind a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to try but I would prefer to await the results of the hydration bake test if you are able to conduct it. Either way, I will have something for you before you have to make dough for use at market next week.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 05:39:44 PM
Norma,

The matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one. We have members who have said semolina but we have had a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough maker and at least one other member say cornmeal. In this vein, if you look at the photo at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/pages/100_3159_JPG.htm) , it appears that there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the top dough box shown in the photo. Yet, when I look at the video you recently posted, I do not seen signs of either semolina or cornmeal anywhere. Also, in all the photos and videos I have seen, I have not seen any brushes that are typically used to brush the burnt remains of semolina or cornmeal from the deck ovens.

If either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what would matter most to me at this point is the purpose of using the semolina or cornmeal. Is it for flavor or texture purposes, or is it to keep the skins from sticking to the peels or the decks of the ovens? If the latter, that would be instructive because it would suggest a fairly high hydration dough. You don't need a release agent for a low hydration dough or one with moderate hydration.

When you and Trenton Bill ate the pizzas at the two De Lorenzo locations, did you detect the presence of either semolina or cornmeal?

When you make your De Lorenzo clone dough at hone using your home stand mixer, I would make it as you usually do. I went to more draconian measures because I was using all-purpose flour whereas you will be using a flour (the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour) that has a natural 12.9% protein content, not a manufactured one using vital wheat gluten. Your dough should be a more robust one than the one I made. And that would be even more true were you to use your Hobart mixer at market.

I pretty much have in mind a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation for you to try but I would prefer to await the results of the hydration bake test if you are able to conduct it. Either way, I will have something for you before you have to make dough for use at market next week.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that the matter of semolina versus cornmeal, or possibly neither, is a perplexing one too.  I have looked at that photo you referenced many times and I see there is a yellow substance at the bottom of the dough box. 

I didn't see any signs of either semolina or cornmeal when I visited De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville either, but I thought I might have missed something because I was only watching what was happening for about 10 minutes.  That, and because the counter was so high I had a hard time seeing everything.

I agree that if either semolina or cornmeal is used at De Lorenzo/Robbinville what would those purposes be. 

When Trenton Bill and I ate the pizza at De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville we didn't notice any cornmeal or semolina on the bottom crust of the pizza.  I saw at the De Lorenzo's/Sloan location that the were using either cornmeal or semolina as the bench flour, but I sure don't recall a cornmeal or semolina taste on the bottom crust of the slices I ate.  I would have to ask Bill if he noticed a cornmeal or semolina taste on the bottom crust at the De Lorenzo's/Sloan location.  I think Bill might have been too upset with the oil they used to detect anything else though.

Thanks for telling me I can use my stand mixer at home to make my clone dough attempt.  I know the dough would be more robust if I used the Hobart mixer at market, but that can wait until I see how my opening techniques work and how my deck oven works.  I will try to do the hydration test tonight or tomorrow to see if that helps at all.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 06:51:46 PM
Peter,

I have one question to ask you.  I defrosted the large dough ball that I purchased from De Lorenzo's at Sloan.  I tried to get all of the semolina or cornmeal off of the 10 gram dough piece.  Do you think it matters if there might be any cornmeal or semolina in the dough for the hydration bake test?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 07:07:42 PM
I have one question to ask you.  I defrosted the large dough ball that I purchased from De Lorenzo's at Sloan.  I tried to get all of the semolina or cornmeal off of the 10 gram dough piece.  Do you think it matters if there might be any cornmeal or semolina in the dough for the hydration bake test?
Norma,

Unless the semolina or cornmeal is dispersed in the dough, is it possible to get a piece from inside the dough ball where there is no semolina or cornmeal? If not, I will take what you have.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 07:48:52 PM
Peter,

I did the bake hydration test and with 10 grams of dough from the De Lorenzo's/Sloan large dough ball.  I first heated my toaster oven up to 500 degrees F and used my IR gun to measure the temperature.  The pressed out piece of dough was put into a metal lid that I usually use for making gravy, so it was a larger lid than I had used before.  The dough ballooned very fast (but did balloon around the edges more than the center did) and I did then cut it then with an Exacto knife.  I then put the oven temperature down to 212 degrees F and measured with my IR gun again.  It sure didn't take as long for this dough piece to completely dry out.  The weight of the dough piece for the hydration bake test was 6.30 grams after the bakes.  The dough piece that had hardened considerably during the bakes tasted just like a cracker to me and was very crispy.

Since I still have the dough ball defrosted do you want me to try and do a gluten mass test and maybe try to do the oil test you did before?  I never tried the oil test like you did.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 07:55:59 PM
Norma,

It won't hurt to do a gluten mass test. Maybe the results can be added to the existing gluten mass list.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2013, 08:13:05 PM
Norma,

I forgot to answer your question about the oil test. I don't see any need for that test.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 10:10:45 PM
I thought it was interesting how Papa's Tomato Pies line their ovens with bricks.  I saw the photos of the bricks that are going in Papa's Tomato Pies on facebook today.   The bricks sure look thick to me. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.563059783742355.1073741827.185566028158401&type=1 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.563059783742355.1073741827.185566028158401&type=1) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2013, 10:44:16 PM
I don't know what I might have done wrong in the wet gluten mass test or how the wet gluten mass was baked, but this is what I did.  I weighed out 5 oz. of the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough and washed it.  It took a long time to wash all of the other ingredients out and the cornmeal or semolina could be felt while washing it.  I am not sure I got all of the cornmeal or semolina out even after all of the washing, squishing and squeezing.  The gluten mass was put into a damp paper towel for 7 mintues then weighed.  It weighed 1.16 grams.  It was then formed into a dough ball and baked at on my aluminum pan that is in my toaster oven.  It was baked at 425 degrees F for an hour.  I did use my IR gun again to take the temperature.  The wet gluten mass dough ball didn't puff up much at all.  It did have a gluten network after being baked though.  The wet gluten mass dough ball only weighed 0.39 grams.  There is something wrong with that number.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 07:21:09 AM
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the hydration bake and gluten mass tests. However, at first blush, the results do not appear to help us as far as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is concerned. But, to be sure, I will have to study the results further and do a few calculations.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 08:14:51 AM
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the hydration bake and gluten mass tests. However, at first blush, the results do not appear to help us as far as De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is concerned. But, to be sure, I will have to study the results further and do a few calculations.

Peter

Peter,

Do you have any idea of where I might have gone wrong with my tests?  Maybe I was rusty in recalling what I did before.   :-\

BTW, I didn't conduct a real oil test, but I did heat the water first to 100 degrees F and used that water in my bigger glass mixing bowl to try and wash out all of the starches, other ingredients and what might be oil.  I wasn't sure I had washed out all of the ingredients because I still felt what might have been cornmeal or semolina, so that is when I washed the gluten mass under cold water more.   I did put the contents of what was in my bigger mixing bowl and froze it last evening.  This morning this is what the drinking glass photos look like.  To my eye it doesn't appear to be much or any oil on the top of the frozen mixture.  I will wait until the contents of the frozen mixture defrosts though to see if there is any oily substance on the top.  I did not let the starches, or other ingredients settle before freezing because it was getting to late to do that.

If you want me to conduct the tests again this weekend if you think I made some errors I can do those tests again.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 08:52:26 AM
A few boardwalk style of pizzas photos from Tuesday.  Usually the photos of pizzas taken from a little farther away in my heated display case don't show the true colors of the crust and really how the cheese looks and these photos also show that.  I wish I had a better camera to really be able to take pictures under artificial lighting, but at least I do have a camera.  My bottom crust mostly always appear darker than what they look like in person, but sometimes the photos do show the true colors.  I guess I am not that good with my camera either.

I did give garlic knot samples out to customers that purchased a slice or whole pizza this past Tuesday.  The garlic knots had the Whirl, margarine and garlic salt, or powder that I was working on.  I had to add garlic powder this week because I only took the Whirl and margarine along to market.  The garlic powder seemed to work well too.  The new garlic sauce is very tasty and when the garlic knots are soaked in the garlic sauce and put into a Styrofoam container they stay soft for a long while.  I am not sure if I am going to be offering the garlic knots with the garlic sauce though.  I did get good compliments on the garlic knots though on Tuesday.  I did sprinkle Pecorino Romano cheese over the garlic knots after the garlic sauce and in my opinion that made them taste better.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 29, 2013, 09:54:02 AM
Your garlic knots sound delicious Norma...keep up the great promo's!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 10:18:34 AM
Your garlic knots sound delicious Norma...keep up the great promo's!  :chef:

Thanks Bob!  Steve and I think the garlic knots taste a lot better since I use the garlic sauce I was learning to make.  The extra cheese sprinkled on doesn't hurt either. 

I got my email back from market management on Tuesday and there are lot of things I am not allowed to do that I asked about.  I am not allowed to put it a pizza flutter flag, don't think I am allowed to put my new posters on the bulletin boards, not allowed to put a A-frame sign outside in the main midway because they say they did put they one way up there (even though the man that did sell pizza outside said he doesn't mind if I put an A-frame sign there), but that sign market put is so little no one is ever going to look at it and a lot of other stuff.  I can't seem to talk to market management in person at all, but will work on trying to do that.  They want me to rent an outside stand and just give coupons out for money off of my pizzas.  I sure don't know how I would pay an extra person to do that and also have more money off of my pizzas.  I think this week I am going to post on my facebook page a deal if someone mentions it to me that they saw it on facebook.  I know not many customers look at my facebook page though.  Some days I feel like I am getting nowhere with market management.  They also want me to ask my customers to send in requests to do a DDD show at my place.  I would be way to embarrassed to ask customers to do that.  How I feel about that is I would be making customers go to great lengths on helping me and I don't want to impose on them at all.  I am not posting about all this stuff on my help thread because if they read it they might be more rough on me.  I have to compose a long email to them again. They are saying if I have good pizza people will come, but that is far from the truth in my opinion.  I am not saying I make the best pizza ever, but I don't have a lot of choices in trying to get foot traffic to my area.  The one new stand I had wanted opened up again after two vendors now left already.  I know I have no chance in getting that stand though.  I guess they think I am too pushy even though all I do is state my opinions. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 10:50:28 AM
Do you have any idea of where I might have gone wrong with my tests?  Maybe I was rusty in recalling what I did before.   :-\
Norma,

It is always difficult to conduct experiments in a home setting because of the crude, nonscientific nature of our equipment and processes. I am still analyzing the results you got but if the hydration test were to be repeated, I think I would try for a longer bake time. My recollection is that the materials that I read on the hydration bake test called for a bake time that took a good part of a day. I found that I didn't need anywhere that amount of time. My practice was to bake the test sample until its weight stabilized and didn't change anymore. My method is described at Reply 967 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947).

As for your gluten mass test, it is possible that your sample may have included some cornmeal or semolina. Semolina would have some wheat-based gluten but the cornmeal would not. So the sample size might not have been composed of only wheat flour as the flour component. A surer gluten mass test would be to make a dough ball and wash it to retrieve the gluten. My recollection is that we used a 9-ounce dough ball for such a test. As I mentioned before, we don't really need a gluten mass test for the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour. You might do it to add the data for that flour to our list, but we don't need it to help come up with a De Lorenzo clone dough formulation.

I found that the oil test was a difficult one to conduct, especially if there was not much oil in the dough. That is why I didn't encourage you to run such a test.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 11:16:23 AM

Norma,

It is always difficult to conduct experiments in a home setting because of the crude, nonscientific nature of our equipment and processes. I am still analyzing the results you got but if the hydration test were to be repeated, I think I would try for a longer bake time. My recollection is that the materials that I read on the hydration bake test called for a bake time that took a good part of a day. I found that I didn't need anywhere that amount of time. My practice was to bake the test sample until its weight stabilized and didn't change anymore. My method is described at Reply 967 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg166947/topicseen.html#msg166947).

Peter

Peter,

I will run the hydration test again this weekend following the directions you gave your link.  Thanks for that link!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 11:24:15 AM
Norma,

To update you on the gluten mass test you conducted, I normalized the 1.16 ounces of gluten from the 5-ounce sample you used to the 9-ounce dough ball size that we have typically used to run gluten mass tests on different flours. The normalized value I calculated is 2.088 ounces. If you look at the master gluten mass list as given at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328), you will see that the 2.088 number places the flour used to make the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough near the bottom of the list. If De Lorenzo/Sloan is using the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour, I would expect the actual wet gluten mass value to be higher up in the master gluten mass list.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 11:58:00 AM
Norma,

To update you on the gluten mass test you conducted, I normalized the 1.16 ounces of gluten from the 5-ounce sample you used to the 9-ounce dough ball size that we have typically used to run gluten mass tests on different flours. The normalized value I calculated is 2.088 ounces. If you look at the master gluten mass list as given at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg182328.html#msg182328), you will see that the 2.088 number places the flour used to make the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough near the bottom of the list. If De Lorenzo/Sloan is using the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour, I would expect the actual wet gluten mass value to be higher up in the master gluten mass list.

Peter

Peter,

I must have done something wrong in that test, because that number is too low, which I thought.  Maybe I was trying to multi-task too many things at once last evening.

I know this is not going to matter, but I don't see any oil, unless it was such a small amount, in the partial oil test I did for De Lorenzo's/Sloan gluten mass/oil partial test.  The frozen mass is liquid now.  I know you posted that it might be hard to detect a small amount of oil.  I was just curious if I could see any oil on the top.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 12:19:14 PM
Norma,

For your information, this morning I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html) to run several scenarios for a dough formulation based on the hydration test you conducted. Your test indicated that the water content of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, including the moisture in the flour (rated at 14%) and the water used to make the dough, was 37%. The iterations I ran using the expanded dough calculating tool suggested that the hydration of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would be in the 40+% range. It could be higher if a lot of oil were used, but at this point it sounds like they may be using little or no oil to make their dough. My iterations also assumed typical values for yeast and salt, but their quantities, when used in their normal ranges in pizza dough, have little effect on the hydration numbers.

It is important to keep in mind that hydration bake test results alone do not offer much help. Usually, you need to know what ingredients are used to make the dough. For example, you might recall that when we worked on reverse engineering and cloning the Mellow Mushroom dough, we knew all of the ingredients up front. With the hydration bake tests results in hand for the sample of the MM dough you tested, that made it much easier to come up with a formulation that had the water content that was the same as your results indicated.

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40+% range. If that number is correct, then I would have to completely rethink what they might be doing, possibly including bake temperatures and times, about which I know very little. I have avoided thinking about what they may be doing since our focus has been on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing and trying to reverse engineer and clone their dough. There hasn't been a big demand to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, at least not on this forum, and apparently for good reason as best I can tell.

I look forward to the results of your repeat hydration bake test. Even then, without knowing precisely what ingredients De Lorenzo/Sloan is using to make its dough, the answers may not help us a great deal with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formlation. The best I can hope for is to confirm what I think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 01:36:34 PM
Norma,

For your information, this morning I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html) to run several scenarios for a dough formulation based on the hydration test you conducted. Your test indicated that the water content of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, including the moisture in the flour (rated at 14%) and the water used to make the dough, was 37%. The iterations I ran using the expanded dough calculating tool suggested that the hydration of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough would be in the 40+% range. It could be higher if a lot of oil were used, but at this point it sounds like they may be using little or no oil to make their dough. My iterations also assumed typical values for yeast and salt, but their quantities, when used in their normal ranges in pizza dough, have little effect on the hydration numbers.

It is important to keep in mind that hydration bake test results alone do not offer much help. Usually, you need to know what ingredients are used to make the dough. For example, you might recall that when we worked on reverse engineering and cloning the Mellow Mushroom dough, we knew all of the ingredients up front. With the hydration bake tests results in hand for the sample of the MM dough you tested, that made it much easier to come up with a formulation that had the water content that was the same as your results indicated.

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40+% range. If that number is correct, then I would have to completely rethink what they might be doing, possibly including bake temperatures and times, about which I know very little. I have avoided thinking about what they may be doing since our focus has been on what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing and trying to reverse engineer and clone their dough. There hasn't been a big demand to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, at least not on this forum, and apparently for good reason as best I can tell.

I look forward to the results of your repeat hydration bake test. Even then, without knowing precisely what ingredients De Lorenzo/Sloan is using to make its dough, the answers may not help us a great deal with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formlation. The best I can hope for is to confirm what I think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is doing.

Peter

Peter,

Athough I could not do the calculations to find out what hydration the hydration baked test showed, I thought those results were probably out of line too.  The number you calculated out of my hydration bake test at 37% is way to low in my opinion too. 

I understand that the hydration bake test alone does not help much either.  I recall over at the MM thread when we were trying to reverse engineer or clone that pizza we knew all of the ingredients up front. 

I find it hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan is using a hydration value in the 40-% range too.  I would think that would put the pizza in cracker territory. 

I will try to repeat the hydration bake test later today, or in the next few days.  I think you have a better handle on what De Lorezno's/Robbinsville is doing from your logic and learning from all of your experiments.

De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough does feel dry though in my opinion, just from feeling it and trying to open the dough, but surely not as dry as a cracker dough.

BTW you didn't use your latest experimental dough to make a pizza did you?  I think if it gets cooler in your area if you can bake one of your dough skins into a pizza that might tell you more.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 02:20:31 PM
Norma,

The 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total dough ball weight. It is not the hydration value, which is the weight of water divided by the weight of flour.

No, I did not use the last test dough to make a pizza. It has been in the high 90s of late and today it is supposed to hit 103 degrees. However, I remember the De Lorenzo clone pizzas I made before. I started with hydration values of around 50% but worked my way to about 58%. I also tried different flours, from all-purpose to high-gluten, but I found that I liked the high-gluten flour best. That leads me to believe that the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that you now have in your possession may be a good choice. My thickness factors were somewhat lower than what I would propose today, and that resulted in crusts that, in retrospect, were perhaps too thin. Baking the De Lorenzo clone pizzas was also a challenge in my standard home electric oven, especially achieving a long bake time.

Since you have the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville appears to be using from what has been reported, and since you also have a commercial deck oven and a commercial mixer available to you if needed at some point, I am hoping that you will be able to create something that emulates the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas far better than I can do in my home setting. You also have good tomato and cheese choices. But, as always, the proof is in the pudding.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2013, 02:55:10 PM
Norma,

I thought that you might enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan, at http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township (http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township) . Note, in particular, the comments directed to the taste/flavor of the pizza crusts. You and Steve may be right about a salt deficiency.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 06:21:11 PM
Norma,

The 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total dough ball weight. It is not the hydration value, which is the weight of water divided by the weight of flour.

No, I did not use the last test dough to make a pizza. It has been in the high 90s of late and today it is supposed to hit 103 degrees. However, I remember the De Lorenzo clone pizzas I made before. I started with hydration values of around 50% but worked my way to about 58%. I also tried different flours, from all-purpose to high-gluten, but I found that I liked the high-gluten flour best. That leads me to believe that the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour that you now have in your possession may be a good choice. My thickness factors were somewhat lower than what I would propose today, and that resulted in crusts that, in retrospect, were perhaps too thin. Baking the De Lorenzo clone pizzas was also a challenge in my standard home electric oven, especially achieving a long bake time.

Since you have the flour that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville appears to be using from what has been reported, and since you also have a commercial deck oven and a commercial mixer available to you if needed at some point, I am hoping that you will be able to create something that emulates the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas far better than I can do in my home setting. You also have good tomato and cheese choices. But, as always, the proof is in the pudding.

Peter

Peter,

I think you know by now how bad in math I am and even understanding things sometimes.  Thanks for explaining the 37% figure represents the weight of water in the dough to the total ball weight. 

I can understand why you did not make the pizza out of your test dough.  It is really hot in your area.  Thanks for telling me what hydrations values you worked though in the De Lorenzo's clone doughs you made before.  I can only hope I will do the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour justice when I get to make a dough.  Interesting that you think your thickness factors were too low before.  I can understand the De Lorenzo clone pizzas were a challenge in your standard home oven.

I know I have all the things that are needed, but then I am not a descendant of De Lorenzo's or one of their employees.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2013, 06:26:24 PM
Norma,

I thought that you might enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan, at http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township (http://www.yelp.com/biz/delorenzos-pizza-hamilton-township) . Note, in particular, the comments directed to the taste/flavor of the pizza crusts. You and Steve may be right about a salt deficiency.

Peter

Peter,

I did enjoy reading the Yelp reviews on De Lorenzo/Sloan.  Thanks for the link.  I believe Steve and I were right about either no salt in their dough, or very little.  I know Steve can taste a mile off if no salt is in a dough or pizza crust.  He tasted the dough first and then I had to follow.  I did agree with Steve this time.  >:D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 08:44:18 AM
I listened to this video with Nick Azzaro of Papa's Pizza again and enjoyed how he doesn't even know why a tomato pie is called a Tomato Pie, and tries to explain what the differences and similarities are in a tomato pie and I guess he really says Tomato Pies aren't really different except the way they are dressed.  Nick says in the interview that he really can't tell why they are called a tomato pie because he would have to either marry it or kill you to the interviewee.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdm3Bp7vKZQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hdm3Bp7vKZQ)   The over 100 years in the pizza business is something interesting to me too, but I already knew that about Papa's.

I wish I could learn more about the tomato pie businesses that have closed in the Trenton area and what they were like.  I wonder if there are any articles archived from the Trentonian about the tomato pies of years ago.  http://www.trentonian.com/ (http://www.trentonian.com/) 

From listening to the video again above I had not picked this up before, but Nick Azzaro mentions Schusters Tomato Pies on Whittaker Avenue.  I then looked for Schusters Tomato Pies on the web and found this article by a blogger.  http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/2009/11/461-463-whittaker-avenue-burg.html (http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/2009/11/461-463-whittaker-avenue-burg.html)  Schusters Tomato Pies was Pica's Tomato Pies before it was Schusters Tomato Pies.  Schuster was also German, so maybe I have a chance since I am German (or mostly German) at making a decent Tomato Pie.  :-D

There also is another Tomato Pie pizza business mentioned in a comment on the above link.  The name of that tomato pie establishment is Dominick’s Pizza and they served Tomato Pies too.  I would like to know more about those pizzerias if I can find out more.  It made me wonder more about what Tomato Pies were like years ago since my last visit to Trenton Bill's.  Bill told me around the Trenton area there were many different Tomato Pie businesses and they used those old kind of coal ovens that were all over Trenton, and he recalls when the pizzas were just wrapped in a newspaper/butcher paper or a paper bag.  It says in the above link that tomato pies were only .40-.50 cents.  Papa's Tomato Pies were also mentioned as only costing .25 cents.

Since I really like history and old things, learning more about how Trenton was years ago and Tomato Pies is fascinating to me.

More articles can be found from that article including many pizzerias that sold Tomato Pies.  I wonder what happened to all of them.

http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/search/label/Tomato%20Pies (http://mackstruckofwisdom.blogspot.com/search/label/Tomato%20Pies)

Trenton Bill told me about Jimmy's Camera Store that was right near De Lorenzo's on Hudson.

http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=134787803372524987&postID=1052302382770363814 (http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=134787803372524987&postID=1052302382770363814) 

If the comments are looked at under the one article about the Trenton area Tomato Pies some of those comments are interesting.

I guess in this article it explain how Nick of Papa's Pizza began making Mustard Pies.  http://djeat.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/mustard-pie/ (http://djeat.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/mustard-pie/) 

If anyone else finds some tidbits about Tomato Pies from years ago that are now closed let me know.  Probably most members wouldn't appreciate all this jibbler jabber/gibber-gabber about Tomato Pies, but in my opinion it is part of the history of pizza.  I believe the Trenton area is very rich in the history of pizzas of long ago.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: BenLee on August 30, 2013, 11:16:37 AM
One day last year when I was at Delorenzo's, we were the last pie of the night.  Then, I guess Sammy made a bunch of pies for him and the staff.  They used all the left over fresh mozzarella and heirloom tomatoes for their salads.  It looked phenomenal and really showcased how he could make some great pies out of the traditional Delorenzo's style.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 11:51:59 AM
This is a photo of a 5 lb. bag of Sorrento LMPS mozzarella on the Costco Business Delivery page. 

Well this link below did not work when I posted it, but the bag for the Sorrento PSLM mozzarellas looks the same as the whole milk mozzarella & provolone on Sam's Clubs website.

http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sorrento-wm-mozzarella-provolone-shred-5-lb-bag/162941.ip (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sorrento-wm-mozzarella-provolone-shred-5-lb-bag/162941.ip)  Sorry for the confusion.

If this was the cheese De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville was using the day I was there, it sure doesn't look like the bag I saw.  I think the name might have changed over to the Galbani name.

I tried to look at the specs for the Sorrento Part Skim Shredded Mozzarella at the spec page athttp://www.specpage.com/ProductDetail/?productid=133552  but I guess someone needs to be logged in to look at any of the specs.

Edit:  The link for the spec doesn't even work.
 
At the cheese reporter it lists at the last entry that the Sorrento PSLM is Galbani. http://npaper-wehaa.com/cheese-reporter/2013/04/#?page=13&article=1863824 (http://npaper-wehaa.com/cheese-reporter/2013/04/#?page=13&article=1863824)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 12:17:46 PM
I did another hydration bake test on part of the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough this morning.  This time I took more photos to show if I might be doing something wrong. 

I tried to take the inner most part of the dough ball so there might not be any semolina or cornmeal in the part I measured in weigh.  The piece of dough was 10 grams.  I had thought to try to press it out between wax paper, but that didn't work.  I then used Cling Wrap and that did work for the sticking issue.  I also used a smaller jar lid this time.  The skin wasn't elastic at all after it was pressed.  The first bake was at 475 degrees F in my toaster oven and after it expanded I did slit it in different places.  The temperature on my toaster oven was then turned down to about 212 degrees F or a little higher, because my toaster oven doesn't stay at exactly the same temperature it is set at.  I did place the metal lid in my toaster oven on the bare rack when the temperature came down.     

When the weight finally stablized during the second bake the hydration/bake test flattened dough ball weighed 7.61 grams.  A piece of baked dough wanted to stick a little and I am not sure if I got to weigh all of the crumbs, so it might have weighed a little more. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 12:19:41 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Cettastomatopies on August 30, 2013, 12:41:22 PM
Hey Norma,
             I did some research as well. Seems the old Italian immigrants used to sell them out of horse and buggy before opening there establishments, early 1900's and on. Also, I found that they started as square pies as L&B spumoni gardens has been since 1917. If you haven't made it over to Brooklyn, its a must and there famous "Spumoni" rocks! Pronto pizza in sayreville, NJ recreated it and has done a nice job, but the original Brooklyn hotspot can't be touched.
Would LOVEEEE those dough recipes, "Gold"!!!!
What flour are you mostly using to create the "Tomatoe Pie"?
talk soon!
Chuck
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 30, 2013, 12:55:53 PM
When the weight finally stablized during the second bake the hydration/bake test flattened dough ball weighed 7.61 grams.  A piece of baked dough wanted to stick a little and I am not sure if I got to weigh all of the crumbs, so it might have weighed a little more. 
Norma,

Can you tell me roughly how long it took the weight of the sample to stabilize? Your data suggests a water content of (10 - 7.61)/10 = 23.9%. Obviously, that can't be correct. My recollection is that the color of my MM samples was brown after the long bake, although some of the coloration may have been from the molasses.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 01:20:34 PM
Hey Norma,
             I did some research as well. Seems the old Italian immigrants used to sell them out of horse and buggy before opening there establishments, early 1900's and on. Also, I found that they started as square pies as L&B spumoni gardens has been since 1917. If you haven't made it over to Brooklyn, its a must and there famous "Spumoni" rocks! Pronto pizza in sayreville, NJ recreated it and has done a nice job, but the original Brooklyn hotspot can't be touched.
Would LOVEEEE those dough recipes, "Gold"!!!!
What flour are you mostly using to create the "Tomatoe Pie"?
talk soon!
Chuck

Cettastomatopies,

Glad you to hear you did some research too on Tomato Pies.  That is interesting that the old Italian immigrants used to sell them out of a horse and buggy before opening their establishments in the early 1900's.  8) I didn't know they started as square pies like L&B Spumoni gardens.  I have been to L&B Spumoni with other members here on the forum. 

Right now I am using All Trumps for my present pizzas, but will try the Pillsbury Best Baker Patent Flour when Peter sets-forth a formulation to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 01:37:24 PM
Norma,

Can you tell me roughly how long it took the weight of the sample to stabilize? Your data suggests a water content of (10 - 7.61)/10 = 23.9%. Obviously, that can't be correct. My recollection is that the color of my MM samples was brown after the long bake, although some of the coloration may have been from the molasses.

Peter

Peter,

I started the hydration bake test at 9:05 AM this morning and put the test dough into my toaster oven a few minutes after that. The test dough expanded at 9:14 AM.  At 9:15 AM the expanded dough was sliced after the first bake.  At 10:45 the bake test was finished.  I sure don't know about the color or if I baked enough but if you look what I posted to Stuart at Reply 394   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276003.html#msg276003 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276003.html#msg276003) you can see I posted my crust was still white after most of that bake and that is why I brushed olive oil on the rim to help it get more color.

I can tell by clicking on my photos on the computer at what time I took those photos so the time frame should be fairly accurate.  I was checking every 10 minutes to see if it lost more weight and only took it out after it didn't lose anymore in 20 minutes.  Do I need to do the hydration bake test again and don't you think I baked enough?

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 30, 2013, 01:44:55 PM
I was checking every 10 minutes to see if it lost more weight and only took it out after it didn't lose anymore in 20 minutes.  Do I need to do the hydration bake test again and don't you think I baked enough?
Norma,

If I had to guess, maybe the sample wasn't baked long enough. If you kept the sample, you might bake it longer if your schedule permits it. It might take several hours, especially if the loss of moisture is very gradual.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
Norma,

If I had to guess, maybe the sample wasn't baked long enough. If you kept the sample, you might bake it longer if your schedule permits it. It might take several hours, especially if the loss of moisture is very gradual.

Peter

Peter,

I can bake it longer, but I have to go to market shortly.  Should I put the test hydration dough in a plastic bag and then bake it again when I get home, or should I just start over again?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 30, 2013, 02:11:15 PM
I can bake it longer, but I have to go to market shortly.  Should I put the test hydration dough in a plastic bag and then bake it again when I get home, or should I just start over again?
Norma,

I think for now I would set the sample aside and restart the bake at your convenience.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 30, 2013, 04:11:48 PM
Norma:

I know you are a student of pizza and wondered if you have heard of the Resevoir Pizzeria in South Orange, NJ? I grew up on it and they claimed to be a tomato pie but am not sure if they are still making the pies I ate in the 60-70's.  Walter

http://soreservoir.com/history.html (http://soreservoir.com/history.html)

http://soreservoir.com/ (http://soreservoir.com/)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 05:24:50 PM
Norma:

I know you are a student of pizza and wondered if you have heard of the Resevoir Pizzeria in South Orange, NJ? I grew up on it and they claimed to be a tomato pie but am not sure if they are still making the pies I ate in the 60-70's.  Walter

http://soreservoir.com/history.html (http://soreservoir.com/history.html)

http://soreservoir.com/ (http://soreservoir.com/)

Walter,

I never heard of Resevoir Pizzeria in South Orange, NJ.  I watched the video and it sure looks like they serve good foods.  The tomato pie pizza looks good too.  I think NJ has many places that offer what they call tomato pies.  Did you think the tomato pies were more special than the pizzas you are making now?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 30, 2013, 05:38:23 PM
Walter,

I never heard of Resevoir Pizzeria in South Orange, NJ.  I watched the video and it sure looks like they serve good foods.  The tomato pie pizza looks good too.  I think NJ has many places that offer what they call tomato pies.  Did you think the tomato pies were more special than the pizzas you are making now?

Norma

Norma:  I am ignorant to the Trenton style tomato pie.  I have never been to that area and the pictures you post of yours and places you visit are all I have seen.  I do remember the resevoir boxes use to say tomato pie on them.   My uncle was a policeman in town and would often come by on duty, leave his car running in the driveway, and bring a few pies in our house to share at diner time.  I remember they offered mushrooms and sausage toppings, were thin crust and very tasty.   The neighbors use to get all upset with him wasting taxpayers money.......  The good old days!  He was a real tightwad so I think the place gave them to him for free for looking the other way on certain things.   He was involved with a lot of that stuff.  He took me to illegal gambling houses down in Newark when I was teen.  He was well known and everything we ate and drank was on the house.   He was a real swinger and if it wasn't for him I probably wouldn't have had a store bought meal as a kid.

 I can't remember back 40 years and compare it to what I make today.  We lived in near poverty with food due to 8-11 people living in our 3 bedroom home.  The food was great but very frugal in design.  No waste.  Everything was made at home by mother from scratch like she learned from her mother.  As a family we never went to a restraunt.   My first time to one was when I was 13 and my uncle took me to Beef and Ale in South Orange.  So, when a restraunt made pizza, or any food came in our house, it was a special treat.  I often asked why we didn't go out for food and my mother would always say- because we make much better stuff here at home.  I realize now that is true but as a kid I longed to go to mcdonalds, a dinner, and such.  The good news is I learned from her, her sisters, and her father (a butcher) a lot about scratch made food and luckily they were Italian :)  I think of my pies as the best of what I remember from places like the resevior.  I really don't concern myself with what others think of them.  I make them for me and if others like them then that is great.  I don't mean that as a snobish thing but why would I make any kind of pie that I didn't like?  Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 10:10:32 PM
Norma:  I am ignorant to the Trenton style tomato pie.  I have never been to that area and the pictures you post of yours and places you visit are all I have seen.  I do remember the resevoir boxes use to say tomato pie on them.   My uncle was a policeman in town and would often come by on duty, leave his car running in the driveway, and bring a few pies in our house to share at diner time.  I remember they offered mushrooms and sausage toppings, were thin crust and very tasty.   The neighbors use to get all upset with him wasting taxpayers money.......  The good old days!  He was a real tightwad so I think the place gave them to him for free for looking the other way on certain things.   He was involved with a lot of that stuff.  He took me to illegal gambling houses down in Newark when I was teen.  He was well known and everything we ate and drank was on the house.   He was a real swinger and if it wasn't for him I probably wouldn't have had a store bought meal as a kid.

 I can't remember back 40 years and compare it to what I make today.  We lived in near poverty with food due to 8-11 people living in our 3 bedroom home.  The food was great but very frugal in design.  No waste.  Everything was made at home by mother from scratch like she learned from her mother.  As a family we never went to a restraunt.   My first time to one was when I was 13 and my uncle took me to Beef and Ale in South Orange.  So, when a restraunt made pizza, or any food came in our house, it was a special treat.  I often asked why we didn't go out for food and my mother would always say- because we make much better stuff here at home.  I realize now that is true but as a kid I longed to go to mcdonalds, a dinner, and such.  The good news is I learned from her, her sisters, and her father (a butcher) a lot about scratch made food and luckily they were Italian :)  I think of my pies as the best of what I remember from places like the resevior.  I really don't concern myself with what others think of them.  I make them for me and if others like them then that is great.  I don't mean that as a snobish thing but why would I make any kind of pie that I didn't like?  Walter

Walter,

I think the Trenton style tomato pie is somewhat confusing for some people.  That even is somewhat true for me.  I started on this search about Tomato Pies over at the NJ Boardwalk thread probably about 3 years ago.  I had eaten Mack's pizza in Wildwood since I was a child and that was was my favorite pizza for many years up until recently when I thought their pizzas had declined some. The owners of Mack's Pizza and the owners of Manco & Manco were from the Trenton area and although they both really didn't call their pies Tomato Pies by that name the cheese was always put on first, then sauced in a spiral pattern and then more cheese.  I am not sure who Mack's Pizza and Manco & Manco learned to make their pizzas from, but it probably it was someone in the Trenton area, because they lived there and had a pizza business in Trenton before taking their pizza business to the Jersey shore.  Both of those pizza businesses are still in business and both families are related. 

Thanks for telling me about your uncle that was a policeman and what all his did.  He sounded like a character even though he was a policeman.  He was kind though to take you places and get food for you and your family 

I can understand why you can't remember back 40 years ago and compare that tomato pie to what you make today.  I can also understand why when a restaurant made pizza for you, or food came into your home it was a special treat for you and anyone else that lived there.  Great to hear you learn a lot about food from your mother and other relatives.  I can understand that you think your pies are the best of what you can remember from places like Reservoir.  I think you make great pizzas.

That is a wonderful photo of your Uncle Joe. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2013, 10:16:52 PM
Probably this hydration bake test number is not accurate either.  I did put the piece of hard dough back into the toaster oven at a little over 212 degrees F and restarted the bake again for an hour and a half after I returned from market.  I then got a call to go somewhere, so the bake had to stop again.  When I got home I baked for another hour.  The number now is 6.18 grams.  The baked dough only changed color a little. 

I can do the whole hydration bake test again tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2013, 12:05:45 AM
Norma,

Since you have gotten similar baked weights for two hydration bake tests (6.30 and 6.18), maybe your numbers are correct after all. It would help to know all of the ingredients of a De Lorenzo/Sloan dough but maybe the combination of a hydration in the 40+% range and a thickness factor of around 0.073- 0.083 and a bake time that is less than what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using will produce the version of tomato pie/pizza that De Lorenzo/Sloan is selling.

I will await your repeat test results but I don't think that the results will alter the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that I have in mind at this time.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 09:47:49 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the compliment on my pies.  Hopefully they taste as good/better than they look  :)Being a special education teacher makes me quite interested in human behaviors/brain functions.  In this case it makes me wonder if our younger memories of food are accurate or not today.  They sure were as kids and we remember that but as the years go on so does our circumstances.  As kids we did not have the independence to go out on our own and buy the meals we wanted.  What was put in front of most of us was not our choice.  It also kept us alive and without our parents/adults giving us food we would have perished.   The primal drive to survive is strong and children get lifelong imprints from these experiences-food, emotional, social, socio-economic.  So did your boardwalk pie decline?  Did my Town Hall Deli sloppy joes go downhill (I think their meat quality has declined)?   Interesting stuff and I am sure there is a ton of research on this subject.   I hope I get to try one of your pies someday.  Here is a place in Santa Rosa CA that was a few blocks from our house.  I was all excited to try when we lived there because it boasted thin crust, hand tossed, deck oven, pies.  On the tomato pie angle, they put the cheese on first and then used one of those red plastic re-usable ketchup bottles to squirt sauce on top.  It was mainly teenagers making the pies and I was not at all impressed with them at the time (about 10 years ago).  Walter

http://www.mombospizza.com/pizza_cam.php?store=sr&cam_style=rawpix&size=big (http://www.mombospizza.com/pizza_cam.php?store=sr&cam_style=rawpix&size=big)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 31, 2013, 10:10:41 AM
I think one "problem" with this whole "tomato pie" issue is that though Trenton's "tomatoes on top" style has evolved into that style...and is focused on a couple of survivors and imitators in the Trenton bloc, "tomato pie" used to be what most old time New Jersey places that sold pizza called them.

Many of these places, like Hudson St. Delorenzo's and many others in my childhood area closer to the Asbury Park shore, were started by Italian-Americans returning from WWII or the demand from those who returned, and had experienced "pizza" in Italy. (Many of the places that sold them were already Italian taverns.) Rather than call them "pizzas", a name which was only to catch on much later, in the '70s and beyond, they called their products "tomato pies", as did the Trenton industry. It meant nothing one way or another about the order of the dressings, however.

One photo I saw recently from my hometown (Freehold, NJ, that also of the more famous BRUCE, the poet/sonwriter) showed the still-thriving Federici's in the '60s. The sign is loud and clear "tomato pies". Then and now the sauce was on the bottom of the cracker style crust.


And, walter, though I don't know Resevoir, my college roommate grew up in S. Orange and brought back Town Hall sandwiches, which I really liked. The place went out of business for a long time. Then, about 5 -6 years ago, it re-opened under new ownership. The target audience (mostly ethnic) had long moved onto new pastures, and the place recently closed, never really catching on. So, Grunnings and Town Hall are but memories now.

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 11:39:50 AM
Norma,

I will await your repeat test results but I don't think that the results will alter the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that I have in mind at this time.

Peter

Peter,

I started the hydration bake test again around 9:00 AM this morning.  Do you recall how much time you baked in your hydration bake test?  I am going to keep weighing to see when it doesn't lose anymore weight, but was just curious how long you had to bake.  I did some searches, but guess I didn't look enough to see how long you had to bake.

I found another interesting thing with my really old toaster oven this morning.  I put the temperature dial up higher to heat it up faster, but not the whole way.  When I took the temperature with my IR gun the temperature was up to 600 degrees F.  I bet that darn old toaster oven would bake a good pizza if it was bigger. >:D I keep the old toaster oven in my shed unless I need it for something like these hydration bake tests.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 11:53:44 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the compliment on my pies.  Hopefully they taste as good/better than they look  :)Being a special education teacher makes me quite interested in human behaviors/brain functions.  In this case it makes me wonder if our younger memories of food are accurate or not today.  They sure were as kids and we remember that but as the years go on so does our circumstances.  As kids we did not have the independence to go out on our own and buy the meals we wanted.  What was put in front of most of us was not our choice.  It also kept us alive and without our parents/adults giving us food we would have perished.   The primal drive to survive is strong and children get lifelong imprints from these experiences-food, emotional, social, socio-economic.  So did your boardwalk pie decline?  Did my Town Hall Deli sloppy joes go downhill (I think their meat quality has declined)?   Interesting stuff and I am sure there is a ton of research on this subject.   I hope I get to try one of your pies someday.  Here is a place in Santa Rosa CA that was a few blocks from our house.  I was all excited to try when we lived there because it boasted thin crust, hand tossed, deck oven, pies.  On the tomato pie angle, they put the cheese on first and then used one of those red plastic re-usable ketchup bottles to squirt sauce on top.  It was mainly teenagers making the pies and I was not at all impressed with them at the time (about 10 years ago).  Walter

http://www.mombospizza.com/pizza_cam.php?store=sr&cam_style=rawpix&size=big (http://www.mombospizza.com/pizza_cam.php?store=sr&cam_style=rawpix&size=big)

Walter,

I am sure your NY style pizzas taste as good as they look.  I am also interested in human behaviors/brain functions even if I am not a special education teacher like you are.  I really don't know, but think your memories about what you ate when you were younger stick with you the rest of your life.  My parents weren't rich, but both of them worked full-time and we weren't poor either, but my mother did make almost all our meals at home.  I recall all of those meals fondly.  They didn't even have a Mc Donald's until I was a teen in my area, so fast foods were out for us.  I don't get to Wildwood, NJ enough to be able to really tell if Mack's pizza really did decline, but the last few times I was there the pizza didn't taste as good as before.  Since I had been going to Mack's for many years I would think I would be able to notice the decline, but then I am making pizzas now too and that has changed my perception somewhat on what is a good pizza.  I think generally foods have declined somewhat in some places.  I hope you get to try my pizzas someday too.  I can understand what you posted about Mombo's Pizza.  That's cool in they have a camera in there to watch what they are doing.

I have eaten NY style pizzas in NYC many times at many pizzerias in about the last over 15 years.  I used to think they all were really good, but I don't know if I would visit the same places if I would think the same thing now.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 12:00:16 PM
I think one "problem" with this whole "tomato pie" issue is that though Trenton's "tomatoes on top" style has evolved into that style...and is focused on a couple of survivors and imitators in the Trenton bloc, "tomato pie" used to be what most old time New Jersey places that sold pizza called them.

Many of these places, like Hudson St. Delorenzo's and many others in my childhood area closer to the Asbury Park shore, were started by Italian-Americans returning from WWII or the demand from those who returned, and had experienced "pizza" in Italy. (Many of the places that sold them were already Italian taverns.) Rather than call them "pizzas", a name which was only to catch on much later, in the '70s and beyond, they called their products "tomato pies", as did the Trenton industry. It meant nothing one way or another about the order of the dressings, however.

One photo I saw recently from my hometown (Freehold, NJ, that also of the more famous BRUCE, the poet/sonwriter) showed the still-thriving Federici's in the '60s. The sign is loud and clear "tomato pies". Then and now the sauce was on the bottom of the cracker style crust.


Stuart,

Thanks so much for your thoughts about Tomato Pies!  I see what you mean about Federici's and the sign bein loud and clear about their “tomato pies”, even if they sauce first. 

I found it interesting the first time I went to Trenton to visit Trenton Bill that almost everywhere you went a sign was hanging out that said “tomato pies”.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 31, 2013, 12:35:54 PM
Well, in New Haven...they call it "apizz"....for example, my favorite place up there is "Modern Apizza".....

I think the central New Jersey tradition was to call it tomato pie, no matter what the dressing order was. I'd guess that at some point, not too distant in the past, even Delorenzo's (Hudson/Robbinsville) did it the conventional: sauce then cheese way.   At some point, someone realized, maybe by accident, that a crust is crispier if the cheese is put down first, and the palate impression of the acidity of the tomatoes first is also a plus. Who knows when that order really started. The old pictures on Delorenzo's site look like pretty different crusts..and pies.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2013, 12:43:59 PM
I started the hydration bake test again around 9:00 AM this morning.  Do you recall how much time you baked in your hydration bake test?  I am going to keep weighing to see when it doesn't lose anymore weight, but was just curious how long you had to bake.  I did some searches, but guess I didn't look enough to see how long you had to bake.
Norma,

My recollection is that it took many hours the first time I conducted the hydration bake test. To refresh my memory, I did a search and found Reply 899 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194). As noted in that post, the test took about 12 hours. You will also note that the instructions I followed said to split the puffed up sample in half and piece it in several places. I could not tell from your earlier reports if you did that also with your samples.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 01:15:08 PM
Well, in New Haven...they call it "apizz"....for example, my favorite place up there is "Modern Apizza".....

I think the central New Jersey tradition was to call it tomato pie, no matter what the dressing order was. I'd guess that at some point, not too distant in the past, even Delorenzo's (Hudson/Robbinsville) did it the conventional: sauce then cheese way.   At some point, someone realized, maybe by accident, that a crust is crispier if the cheese is put down first, and the palate impression of the acidity of the tomatoes first is also a plus. Who knows when that order really started. The old pictures on Delorenzo's site look like pretty different crusts..and pies.
Quote


Stuart,

I know in New Haven they call it “apizz”.. Nice to know that your favorite place is “Modern Apizza” up there. 

I have no idea how De Lorenzo's Hudson/Robbinsville did the dressings when they started making pizza.  I know the old photos of De Lorenzo's pizza look somewhat different.  Trenton Bill ate those pizzas many years ago when they had their old ovens and he said the pizzas at De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville really were not that much different than right now. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 01:24:10 PM
Norma,

My recollection is that it took many hours the first time I conducted the hydration bake test. To refresh my memory, I did a search and found Reply 899 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg164194.html#msg164194). As noted in that post, the test took about 12 hours. You will also note that the instructions I followed said to split the puffed up sample in half and piece it in several places. I could not tell from your earlier reports if you did that also with your samples.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting the link to Reply 899.  I did read that when I was searching, but must have missed how long it took for the bake.  I also missed the part about splitting the puffed up sample and then placing it in several places.  I guess I was just scanning over that post.  I did not do what you did with my other samples.

I am going to go away for a few hours so I will have to turn off the toaster oven again.  I will resume baking when I get home again.  Hopefully that doesn't mess up the results.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 02:59:28 PM
Peter,

I don't think there is any use in going farther with this hydration bake test.  I did split the dough into four pieces after I saw your last post and put it back into the toaster oven until 2:45 PM.  I decided to weigh the four pieces and the small pieces and as you can see they weigh 6.04 grams with some pieces still in the metal lid and some not exactly on my small scale.  I checked the time I had taken the second photo and that was at 8:14 AM this morning, so it went into the oven right after that and not the 9:00 AM I mentioned before in my other post.  I don't know why, but the pieces are still white.

If you want me to try another hydration bake test tomorrow I can.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 03:43:32 PM



And, walter, though I don't know Resevoir, my college roommate grew up in S. Orange and brought back Town Hall sandwiches, which I really liked. The place went out of business for a long time. Then, about 5 -6 years ago, it re-opened under new ownership. The target audience (mostly ethnic) had long moved onto new pastures, and the place recently closed, never really catching on. So, Grunnings and Town Hall are but memories now.

The Town Hall is still in business-my wife paid $100 to have a sloppy joe overnighted here for my birthday last year.  I worked there as well as my younger brother.  One of the 3 owners was our neighbor.  They use to be located across the street from Grunnings but all three sold out to a new owner who sold the buiding to CHase bank and moved around the corner to of all places the old midas muffler shop.  The new shop, which I have been to many times, does not have the cool vibe of the old shop.  Grunnings on the hill is now high rise condos that overlook the NYC skyline.  One of my best childhood friends still lives in South Orange and says the Resevior pies are still good but I will have to taste them again for myself someday hopefully.  I hear the boss is back living in NJ.  Maybe he missed a good pie!  Walter

http://www.townhalldeli.com/ (http://www.townhalldeli.com/)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2013, 03:46:13 PM
Norma,

I don't see any need to conduct any further bake tests on the 16.7-ounce dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Even though it would help to know all of the ingredients for the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough in order to make the most effective use of your test results, for the time being I will treat your results as being correct and, in due course, maybe make a fairly low hydration test dough based on your results. I am curious to know whether a manageable dough ball with the right extensibility characteristics can be made with a hydration value suggested by your results.

As I was on my morning walk this morning, I wondered whether it was possible that your large De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball dried out some between the time you took possession of it and the time when you started the hydration bake tests. My recollection is that you weighed the two De Lorenzo/Sloan dough balls shortly after you purchased them and that you somehow kept them cold (maybe at Trenton Bill's place?) until you we're able to transport them back home in your cooler, whereupon you froze the dough balls. I assume you conducted the hydration bake tests after defrosting the larger dough ball. If my description and chronology are correct, by any chance did you reweigh the larger dough ball before you started the first hydration bake test? I recall that you commented that the dough ball seemed on the dry side, or other words to that effect.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 03:49:07 PM
Norma:  IMO the decline is due in large part to the cooking/tinkering/tweaking that was always going on in the small shops by highly skilled people is now dying quickly.  Most big name places are hiring people off the street to make the pies/food that often have no experience and they survive more off their name than their product.  Back in the day when these shops made a solid name for themselves the competition was fierce.  Now it is fierce in price and diversity of menu, but quality is third on the list.  When I was a kid I washed dishes and could never make a pie for sale because the pizza makers were all older with generations of experience.  I would watch, learn, and they let me mess around some in slow times.  Now you hire someone today and in a day they are making pies.  Also the push to have a million items on the menu/toppings, types of pies has dilluted the days of making one solid pie.   There will always be good places but I am continually dissapointed when I go home and try deck oven pizzas.   It use to be you would talk about the 1 or 2 shops that made crap pizzas while there were dozens that made great pies.  Now it is more like where can I get good one outside of the few that continue to make great pies.  People like you and me are old school and today that doesn't make for 6 figure incomes from a shop especially if one is doing this in areas that are not historically deep in the pizza culture.   Keep doing your thing!  Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 31, 2013, 03:54:18 PM
  I hear the boss is back living in NJ.  Maybe he missed a good pie!  Walter

http://www.townhalldeli.com/ (http://www.townhalldeli.com/)
Bruce stopped by a pizzeria a friend of mine works at about 8 months ago when he was here checking out Duke University with his daughter.
I have most all his albums/cd's....me an the Boss go all the way back to the beginning. First album I ever bought to play on my new stereo was "Born to Run".  8)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 03:58:35 PM
Bruce stopped by a pizzeria a friend of mine works at about 8 months ago when he was here checking out Duke University with his daughter.
I have most all his albums/cd's....me an the Boss go all the way back to the beginning. First album I ever bought to play on my new stereo was "Born to Run".  8)

I hate to say it but I never cared for him.  Max W, his drummer is from my town.   He was older and we would hang around the basement window and listen to his bands rehearse.  that was pre bruce days.  When I was teen if you were in a bar and said a bad word on him or sinatra you would most likely end up beaten to hell.  I love sinatra and kept my mouth shut on the boss.   Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 31, 2013, 04:03:58 PM
I hate to say it but I never cared for him.  Max W, his drummer is from my town.   He was older and we would hang around the basement window and listen to his bands rehearse.  that was pre bruce days.  When I was teen if you were in a bar and said a bad word on him or sinatra you would most likely end up beaten to hell.  I love sinatra and kept my mouth shut on the boss.   Walter
Was Danny's parents the owner's of Federici's tomato pies?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 04:10:06 PM
Fererici's was out of my territory.  When I went venturing out of our area it was either right to the beach for surfing/bodysurfing/fishing/crabbing/claming or NYC for music.  We had so much good pizza in Essex County that you could eat at a different place every day for a month and never not be satified.   Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 31, 2013, 06:02:29 PM
The Town Hall is still in business-my wife paid $100 to have a sloppy joe overnighted here for my birthday last year.  I worked there as well as my younger brother. 

http://www.townhalldeli.com/ (http://www.townhalldeli.com/)

You are mostly right re: Town Hall...it apparently closed in March...and then re-opened in July at a new location. I hadn't heard that it re-opened.   http://thealternativepress.com/articles/town-hall-delicatessen-makes-triumphant-return-to (http://thealternativepress.com/articles/town-hall-delicatessen-makes-triumphant-return-to)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on August 31, 2013, 06:04:45 PM
Was Danny's parents the owner's of Federici's tomato pies?

Nope...no relation. Danny was from Flemington, NJ.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on August 31, 2013, 07:04:56 PM
You are mostly right re: Town Hall...it apparently closed in March...and then re-opened in July at a new location. I hadn't heard that it re-opened.   http://thealternativepress.com/articles/town-hall-delicatessen-makes-triumphant-return-to (http://thealternativepress.com/articles/town-hall-delicatessen-makes-triumphant-return-to)

I had no idea they temporarly closed/moved again.  That is good.  The former midas shop they were in was depressing.  It is well suited for a 7/11.  The new shop looks great.  I grated the cole slaw machine by hand everyday and made deliveries.  At that time South Orange residents of wealth(and there is a ton there) like Dione Warrick, Willis Reed, Don Kirshner, and others richer but less famous, would send their limos there with the chauffers picking up orders.   The wine cellar was worth well over a million dollars.  The pastrami was to die for.  A little old man made it and brought it in every Wed.  The line went out the door.  I would make deliveries to mansions with senile old widows the only inhabitants.  One would open a desk drawer and tell me to take a dollar tip.  It took a minute to sift through the 100 and 1,000 dollar bills to find one.  My brother made sandwiches.  The sloppy joe is the best sandwich in the world to me.  It was pure old school service and I was lucky to be a part of it. Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 07:45:55 PM
Norma,

I don't see any need to conduct any further bake tests on the 16.7-ounce dough ball that you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan. Even though it would help to know all of the ingredients for the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough in order to make the most effective use of your test results, for the time being I will treat your results as being correct and, in due course, maybe make a fairly low hydration test dough based on your results. I am curious to know whether a manageable dough ball with the right extensibility characteristics can be made with a hydration value suggested by your results.

As I was on my morning walk this morning, I wondered whether it was possible that your large De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball dried out some between the time you took possession of it and the time when you started the hydration bake tests. My recollection is that you weighed the two De Lorenzo/Sloan dough balls shortly after you purchased them and that you somehow kept them cold (maybe at Trenton Bill's place?) until you we're able to transport them back home in your cooler, whereupon you froze the dough balls. I assume you conducted the hydration bake tests after defrosting the larger dough ball. If my description and chronology are correct, by any chance did you reweigh the larger dough ball before you started the first hydration bake test? I recall that you commented that the dough ball seemed on the dry side, or other words to that effect.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you don't see any need for me to do further bake tests on the larger dough ball.  I would be curious also to see if a manageable dough ball with the right extensibility characteristics could be made with the results I got.  Does what Steve and I thought about the salt issue in the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough ball from Tuesday have anything to do with extensibility and if a little salt or no salt was added to their dough?  Could that be why the dough ball might have been manageable even if it was a lower hydration?

I really don't think my large dough ball dried out some between the time I took possession of it from the ride back to Trenton's Bill's home.  That ride was short.  I don't think it dried out after that either. Right after we weighed both dough balls each one was placed in separate zip lock plastic bags and they went right into Bill's freezer.  I used one of those heavily insulated Styrofoam cheese boxes (the kind I had samples of cheese sent to me and the cheeses had stayed cold in shipment) to bring the dough balls home and also big packs of ice in plastic bags kept the dough balls and other things cold until I got home.  The dough balls were even still altogether frozen when I got home and they went right into my freezer then.  I did not reweigh the larger dough ball though before I started the first hydration test. 

The only other thing I can think of is there were large stacks of dough balls in the one corner waiting to be used for pizzas.  I had mentioned that the one stack was wheat doughs.  Neither stack had any top lids on those dough boxes and I have no idea when the piemen were going to use them to make pizzas.   I think that is where they got the 2 dough balls I purchased.  They did heavily flour both dough balls I guess so they wouldn't stick together on our way back to Bill's.  There were papers on the top and bottom of the box (something like a pizza box) that held the dough balls.   The dough balls were put flat against each other though.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 07:52:32 PM
Norma:  IMO the decline is due in large part to the cooking/tinkering/tweaking that was always going on in the small shops by highly skilled people is now dying quickly.  Most big name places are hiring people off the street to make the pies/food that often have no experience and they survive more off their name than their product.  Back in the day when these shops made a solid name for themselves the competition was fierce.  Now it is fierce in price and diversity of menu, but quality is third on the list.  When I was a kid I washed dishes and could never make a pie for sale because the pizza makers were all older with generations of experience.  I would watch, learn, and they let me mess around some in slow times.  Now you hire someone today and in a day they are making pies.  Also the push to have a million items on the menu/toppings, types of pies has dilluted the days of making one solid pie.   There will always be good places but I am continually dissapointed when I go home and try deck oven pizzas.   It use to be you would talk about the 1 or 2 shops that made crap pizzas while there were dozens that made great pies.  Now it is more like where can I get good one outside of the few that continue to make great pies.  People like you and me are old school and today that doesn't make for 6 figure incomes from a shop especially if one is doing this in areas that are not historically deep in the pizza culture.   Keep doing your thing!  Walter

Walter,

I agree that is probably why there is a decline in pizza shops over the years.  Years ago like you posted you either worked your way up the ladder to make pizzas, or you were related to the people that owned the pizzerias and then learned over time.  Learning is one of the processes in making a good pizza.  If you hire someone right off the street they will not care of much about what they produce.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on August 31, 2013, 08:09:41 PM
Does what Steve and I thought about the salt issue in the De Lorenzo's/Sloan dough ball from Tuesday have anything to do with extensibility and if a little salt or no salt was added to their dough?  Could that be why the dough ball might have been manageable even if it was a lower hydration?
Norma,

It is hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan would not use any salt in the dough. For example, to my palate, salt at 1.25% is like there is no salt at all in the crust. If no salt were used, there would be no strengthening of the gluten matrix to enable it to efficiently hold and retain the carbon dioxide and, in addition, the dough would ferment faster--maybe even too fast--since salt has an inhibiting effect of yeast performance due to osmotic pressure. Both of these events could make for a more extensible dough but you can also end up with a dough that is slack and sticky in texture, hard to handle and with a reduced volume. Maybe I will make a second test dough in due course without salt to see what I get. I would only make that dough after I make one with at least a nominal amount of salt, maybe 1%.

BTW, thank you for running all of the hydration bake tests on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough and for explaining how you handled the dough balls from the time you purchased them. I just wanted to be sure that we weren't missing anything.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2013, 09:25:56 PM
Norma,

It is hard to believe that De Lorenzo/Sloan would not use any salt in the dough. For example, to my palate, salt at 1.25% is like there is no salt at all in the crust. If no salt were used, there would be no strengthening of the gluten matrix to enable it to efficiently hold and retain the carbon dioxide and, in addition, the dough would ferment faster--maybe even too fast--since salt has an inhibiting effect of yeast performance due to osmotic pressure. Both of these events could make for a more extensible dough but you can also end up with a dough that is slack and sticky in texture, hard to handle and with a reduced volume. Maybe I will make a second test dough in due course without salt to see what I get. I would only make that dough after I make one with at least a nominal amount of salt, maybe 1%.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me for your palate salt at 1.25% is like there is no salt at all in the crust.  I didn't know that before.  I think the only dough I tried without salt was the Detroit style dough and then final pizza.  Thanks also for explaining is no salt were used, there would be no strengthening of the gluten matrix to enable it to efficiently hold and retain the carbon dioxide and in addition it would ferment faster since salt has an inhibiting effect of yeast performance due to osmotic pressure.  I recall that osmotic pressure from back when you first were trying to help me understand about doughs. 

I have to tell you and any other members what I did awhile ago, which is quite embarrassing. :-[  I didn't mention this on the forum before, but one time in one batch of dough for market I guess I used sugar instead of salt.  I never would have picked that up, but Steve happened to have a slice of pizza out of the dough batch.  He said to me what did you do forget to add the salt.  That make me think and then I said I bet I did mix the sugar for the salt.  The dough balls didn't handle any differently that day though.  From then one I made sure I did keep the sugar and salt not sitting side by side, even though I have both of them labeled.  I did agree with Steve that I forgot the salt after I tasted a slice too.  I felt sorry for any customers that ate those pizzas that day. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 10:02:50 AM
Norma,

I have set forth below two De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulations for you to consider. The first one is for a 14” pizza and the second one is for a 16” pizza. The respective dough ball weights are 10 ounces and 13 ounces. These are nice round, easy-to-remember and easy-to-scale numbers, just as one might expect in a commercial setting. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factors are 0.06496 and 0.06466. Those values are very close to the 0.065 number that I came up with when I tried to simulate the skin thickness shown in the various photos of the Robbinsville operation. The photos I am referring to are the ones at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm) .

In terms of ingredients, the suggested flour for the clone doughs is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour such as described at the General Mills website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000 (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000). That flour has a protein content of 12.9%. To some, that protein percent represents a high-gluten flour. As I have mentioned before, King Arthur describes its bread flour, with a protein content of 12.7%, as a high-gluten flour.

For the hydration, I have selected 59%. For the oil, I am proposing an 80/20 blend of a quality olive oil (from pomace up to EVOO) and, at your option, either soybean oil or canola oil. There is only 1% of the oil blend since it was reported that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough includes only a small amount of oil. The combination of 59% hydration and 1% oil blend should work quite well with the Pillsbury flour, which I would estimate has a rated absorption value of around 62%. I selected those values such that the skins made from the dough balls would have a high water content and be able to sustain a long bake time of around 10 minutes at a bake temperature of 550 degrees F and produce a light and tender/chewy crust with good rim and bottom crust coloration (possibly including char) and without the crust turning into a cracker. The combination of 59% hydration and 1% oil should also lead to an extensible dough that is easy to work with. However, it is unlikely that you will be able to toss and spin the skins, just as it has been reported that the skins made at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville can’t be tossed and spun.

For fermentation purposes, I selected a value of yeast (IDY) of 0.40% to allow for a one-day cold fermentation at market, as opposed to a longer fermentatation that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is said to be using. When I tried that amount of yeast in a test dough at home, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a little more than a doubling) in my refrigerator after one day (exactly 24 hours) of cold fermentation. There were no bubbles of any kind or size on the surface of the dough or at the bottom of the glass storage container. I had placed a thin layer of semolina flour at the bottom of the storage container before putting the dough ball (oiled) on top of the semolina flour. For the first hour after putting the dough ball into the refrigerator, I left the lid off of the container so that the dough ball would cool down a bit faster. I placed the lid on the container at the expiration of the one-hour cool down period.

For salt, I decided on a modest 1.5% since it was reported that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust was not an overly salty one. If that turns out not to be so, its value can easily be changed.

You will also note that there is no sugar (sucrose) called for in the clone dough formulations since it was previously reported that the Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses no sugar in its dough.

With the above as background, here are the two proposed De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation--Small (14”)
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.80%):
Vegetable (Soybean or Canola) Oil (0.20%):
Total (161.9%):
177.73 g  |  6.27 oz | 0.39 lbs
104.86 g  |  3.7 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = approx. 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation—Large (16”)
Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.80%):
Vegetable (Soybean or Canola) Oil (0.20%):
Total (161.9%):
231.06 g  |  8.15 oz | 0.51 lbs
136.32 g  |  4.81 oz | 0.3 lbs
0.92 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
0.46 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.1 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
374.08 g | 13.19 oz | 0.82 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (13 ounces) is for a single 16” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = approx. 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In preparing the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough in your home stand mixer, what you want to achieve is a robust dough ball with a strong gluten structure and with good hydration of the flour. To accomplish this, you might have to give the dough a good final knead at relatively high mixer speeds. You might also want to use a rest period during the preparation of the dough to improve hydration of the flour. You want the finished dough to have a smooth surface. Also, it should not be sticky. If it is sticky, you might work in a bit of bench flour.

In terms of using the dough balls to make skins and dress them to make pizzas, I suggest that you emulate as closely and as best you can the methods and techniques used by the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza maker in the video that you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403). Note, in particular, how the bench flour is used to keep the skins from sticking to anything, including to each other when stacked. I would also use the edge of your counter to help open up the skins through the use of gravity. Although not indicated in the video you referenced, if you decide to use semolina, you might try to keep the semolina side down as much as possible. That side is the one that should be placed on the stones of your deck oven.

As for the tomatoes to use, the two types of canned tomatoes shown in Reply 345 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275494.html#msg275494 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275494.html#msg275494) are very good choices. The tomatoes should ideally be in a ratio of two cans of the RedPack Whole Peeled Tomatoes in Puree to one can of 6-in-1 All Purpose Ground Tomatoes. The cheeses shown in Reply 345 are also good choices, although Grande low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese is also a good choice for those who do not have access to the other cheeses shown. You might also keep in mind, and as was noted in some of the photos referenced above, that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville often adds either more tomatoes or more cheese, and maybe both, after an initial bake of the pizzas. Ideally, you want to end up with just the right amounts of tomatoes and cheese. You might also note that oil is often drizzled onto the baked pizzas once they are completed and ready to be cut and served. It has also been reported that the rims are oiled at some point (maybe after a preliminary bake) in order to get better crust coloration although I have not observed that step in any of the materials I have seen.

Since all of my test doughs were made in a home setting and using home type ingredients, it is possible, and  maybe to be expected, that some changes may have to be made to the clone dough formulations set forth above after you have tried them out at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 10:28:49 AM
Norma,

I have set forth below two De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulations for you to consider. The first one is for a 14” pizza and the second one is for a 16” pizza. The respective dough ball weights are 10 ounces and 13 ounces. These are nice round, easy-to-remember and easy-to-scale numbers, just as one might expect in a commercial setting. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factors are 0.06496 and 0.06466. Those values are very close to the 0.065 number that I came up with when I tried to simulate the skin thickness shown in the various photos of the Robbinsville operation. The photos I am referring to are the ones at http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm. (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/images/dtp-shoot08-untouched/index.htm.)

In terms of ingredients, the suggested flour for the clone doughs is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour such as described at the General Mills website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000. (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/best-bakers-patent-flour-bleached-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/133054000.) That flour has a protein content of 12.9%. To some, that protein percent represents a high-gluten flour. As I have mentioned before, King Arthur describes its bread flour, with a protein content of 12.7%, as a high-gluten flour.

For the hydration, I have selected 59%. For the oil, I am proposing an 80/20 blend of a quality olive oil (from pomace up to EVOO) and, at your option, either soybean oil or canola oil. There is only 1% of the oil blend since it was reported that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough includes only a small amount of oil. The combination of 59% hydration and 1% oil blend should work quite well with the Pillsbury flour, which I would estimate has a rated absorption value of around 62%. I selected those values such that the skins made from the dough balls would have a high water content and be able to sustain a long bake time of around 10 minutes at a bake temperature of 550 degrees F and produce a light and tender/chewy crust with good rim and bottom crust coloration (possibly including char) and without the crust turning into a cracker. The combination of 59% hydration and 1% oil should also lead to an extensible dough that is easy to work with. However, it is unlikely that you will be able to toss and spin the skins, just as it has been reported that the skins made at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville can’t be tossed and spun.

For fermentation purposes, I selected a value of yeast (IDY) of 0.40% to allow for a one-day cold fermentation at market, as opposed to a longer fermentatation that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is said to be using. When I tried that amount of yeast in a test dough at home, the dough increased in volume by 225% (a little more than a doubling) in my refrigerator after one day (exactly 24 hours) of cold fermentation. There were no bubbles of any kind or size on the surface of the dough or at the bottom of the glass storage container. I had placed a thin layer of semolina flour at the bottom of the storage container before putting the dough ball (oiled) on top of the semolina flour. For the first hour after putting the dough ball into the refrigerator, I left the lid off of the container so that the dough ball would cool down a bit faster. I placed the lid on the container at the expiration of the one-hour cool down period.

For salt, I decided on a modest 1.5% since it was reported that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust was not an overly salty one. If that turns out not to be so, its value can easily be changed.

With the above as background, here are the two proposed De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation--Small (14”)
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.80%):
Vegetable (Soybean or Canola) Oil (0.20%):
Total (161.9%):
177.73 g  |  6.27 oz | 0.39 lbs
104.86 g  |  3.7 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = approx. 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation—Large (16”)
Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.80%):
Vegetable (Soybean or Canola) Oil (0.20%):
Total (161.9%):
231.06 g  |  8.15 oz | 0.51 lbs
136.32 g  |  4.81 oz | 0.3 lbs
0.92 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
0.46 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.1 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
374.08 g | 13.19 oz | 0.82 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: The dough (13 ounces) is for a single 16” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = approx. 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

In preparing the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough in your home stand mixer, what you want to achieve is a robust dough ball with a strong gluten structure and with good hydration of the flour. To accomplish this, you might have to give the dough a good final knead at relatively high mixer speeds. You might also want to use a rest period during the preparation of the dough to improve hydration of the flour. You want the finished dough to have a smooth surface. Also, it should not be sticky. If it is sticky, you might work in a bit of bench flour.

In terms of using the dough balls to make skins and dress them to make pizzas, I suggest that you emulate as closely and as best you can the methods and techniques used by the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza maker in the video that you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403.) Note, in particular, how the bench flour is used to keep the skins from sticking to anything, including to each other when stacked. I would also use the edge of your counter to help open up the skins through the use of gravity. Although not indicated in the video you referenced, if you decide to use semolina, you might try to keep the semolina side down as much as possible. That side is the one that should be placed on the stones of your deck oven.

As for the tomatoes to use, the two types of canned tomatoes shown in Reply 345 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275494.html#msg275494 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275494.html#msg275494) are very good choices. The tomatoes should ideally be in a ratio of two cans of the RedPack Whole Peeled Tomatoes in Puree to one can of 6-in-1 All Purpose Ground Tomatoes. The cheeses shown in Reply 345 are also good choices, although Grande low moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese is also a good choice for those who do not have access to the other cheeses shown. You might also keep in mind, and as was noted in some of the photos referenced above, that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville often adds either more tomatoes or more cheese, and maybe both, after an initial bake of the pizzas. Ideally, you want to end up with just the right amounts of tomatoes and cheese. You might also note that oil is often drizzled onto the baked pizzas once they are completed and ready to be cut and served.

Since all of my test doughs were made in a home setting and using home type ingredients, it is possible, and  maybe to be expected, that some changes may have to be made to the clone dough formulations set forth above after you have tried them out at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for setting forth the two De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulations for me to try.  I probably will try the first one for a 14” pizza, because that is what I had at De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville location.  I will mix the dough tomorrow morning.

I might even start a dough today to try in my BS later today.  I am not sure how much IDY or fresh yeast to try, but I will think about that.  I did plan on trying one of my regular frozen dough balls in the BS anyway today, and I am anxious to try your clone formulation.

Thanks also for your detailed explanations on how to prepare the clone dough in my home stand mixer and what techniques I should use in opening the dough ball. 

You made me one happy camper with the formulations you set-forth.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 12:19:30 PM
I got to work right away to make a De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville clone dough from the first formulation Peter set-forth with the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour.  Since I want to make the pizza later on today I used 1 gram of IDY, but followed the rest of the formulation exactly.  I am not sure if that is enough IDY added, but I am going to let the dough ball sit out at about 80 degrees F to start the fermentation process.

I only used my flat beater on my Kitchen Aid mixer for the whole mix of the dough.  I found before that my flat beater works very well to mix doughs and especially is a smaller amount of dough is mixed.  The first mix with the flat beater was for 4 minutes.  I made sure I scraped every piece of flour from my container and also got every drop of water out of the container that the water was in by wiping the dough in the containers after it mixed for 4 minutes on speed 2.  I also scraped every bit of anything that was in the mixer bowl.  I added the oil to the water before the mix.  I then also wiped the dough in the water bowl and also in the measuring cup that had the olive oil/canola oil blend to get every drop out of them.  I used my small scale to weigh out the salt, IDY and olive/oil canola oil blend.  My bigger scale was used for the flour and water.  I mixed again for 3 minutes at speed 2 after I thought I had everything out of all the containers.  The dough felt nice and then I let it rest for 10 minutes to help hydrate the flour.  I then mixed again on speed 2 for 3 minutes.  The dough felt very robust, but did form into a nice dough ball right away.  The final dough temperature was 81.5 degrees F.  The dough wasn't sticky at all and I didn't have to add any extra flour  I don't have any semolina or cornmeal at home so I just dusted the dough ball with the same flour I had used for the dough.  The dough before balling did weigh 10 ounces.

Now I have to decide how long to let the clone De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough ball sit out at room temperature until it is cold fermented.  That might be a rough decision to make.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 12:41:43 PM
Thanks also for your detailed explanations on how to prepare the clone dough in my home stand mixer and what techniques I should use in opening the dough ball. 
Norma,

I think the biggest question mark is likely to be the hydration. I pushed it to the higher end of the range that I think is workable because I wanted to test the outer limit. Actually, I might have gone to 60%, because I think the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour should be able to handle it, but I felt a bit safer from the extensibility standpoint to use 59%. That said, a workable range might be 57-60%. If I am wrong on this, I will have to rethink matters. With little oil and no sugar and modest amounts of yeast and salt, there really isn't much room in the formulation to use a low hydration and get a dough that is so extensible that it can't be tossed and spun.

I wish you luck with your emergency version of the formulation. I forgot to mention it before but you don't want to form a large rim in the skin. You will note from the Robbinsville photos that the skins look very flat with just a hint of a rim. Since the sauce and cheese, etc. don't go completely to the outer edges, the heat of the oven will create the rim with some height.

If you use 1 gram of IDY, that comes to 0.56% IDY. At normal room temperature, you are talking several hours to get the dough to rise to the point to be ready to use.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 01:04:57 PM
Norma,

I think the biggest question mark is likely to be the hydration. I pushed it to the higher end of the range that I think is workable because I wanted to test the outer limit. Actually, I might have gone to 60%, because I think the Pillsbury Best Bakers flour should be able to handle it, but I felt a bit safer from the extensibility standpoint to use 59%. That said, a workable range might be 57-60%. If I am wrong on this, I will have to rethink matters. With little oil and no sugar and modest amounts of yeast and salt, there really isn't much room in the formulation to use a low hydration and get a dough that is so extensible that it can't be tossed and spun.

I wish you luck with your emergency version of the formulation. I forgot to mention it before but you don't want to form a large rim in the skin. You will note from the Robbinsville photos that the skins look very flat with just a hint of a rim. Since the sauce and cheese, etc. don't go completely to the outer edges, the heat of the oven will create the rim with some height.

If you use 1 gram of IDY, that comes to 0.56% IDY. At normal room temperature, you are talking several hours to get the dough to rise to the point to be ready to use.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me the biggest question mark is likely to be the hydration.  I can understand why you wanted to push it out to almost the outer limits.  The part I really don't understand is how you used your logic to get a dough that is extensible, but that it can't be tossed and spun. 

Thanks for the good luck with the emergency version of your formulation.  The dough ball is starting to relax a little already and I did have bowl residue as can be seen in my mixer bowl.  I thought I didn't have any bowl residue, but when I went to wash the mixer bowl there was a little bit of dough left in the mixer bowl and on the flat beater.  I guess after everything dried out that was when the dried stuff on the mixer bowl showed up.

Thanks for mentioning I don't want to form a large rim in the skin.  When I watched the piemen stretch out the skin after the pounding the whole skin looked uniform in appearance.  I am not sure if I can do the same thing.  I can understand the heat of the oven will create a rim with some height.

Thanks also for figuring out what percentage of IDY I used in your formulation.  I don't want to make the pizza until about 6:00 PM today, so I guess I will need to cold ferment some.  It could thunderstorm in our area today so I am not really sure what time I might attempt to make the pizza, but the pizza bake is planned for about 6:00 PM.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 01:36:16 PM
Thanks for telling me the biggest question mark is likely to be the hydration.  I can understand why you wanted to push it out to almost the outer limits.  The part I really don't understand is how you used your logic to get a dough that is extensible, but that it can't be tossed and spun. 
Norma,

My tests were done with a dough made using all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%. In my tests, I started with a hydration of around 56% and kept increasing it with later test doughs until I reached the point where the dough balls could be opened and formed into skins like the photos and video showed yet not be capable of being tossed and spun. It is purely a planned but brute force approach.

In your case, your optimum hydration value may be different than mine simply because you are using a different flour with a natural 12.9% protein content, not a fabricated one. That is why I will be interested in your results. What we are trying to do here is similar to what we tried to do in the boardwalk thread. We never quite had enough information there either.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 02:30:02 PM
Norma,

My tests were done with a dough made using all-purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten to achieve a protein content for the blend of 12.9%. In my tests, I started with a hydration of around 56% and kept increasing it with later test doughs until I reached the point where the dough balls could be opened and formed into skins like the photos and video showed yet not be capable of being tossed and spun. It is purely a planned but brute force approach.

In your case, your optimum hydration value may be different than mine simply because you are using a different flour with a natural 12.9% protein content, not a fabricated one. That is why I will be interested in your results. What we are trying to do here is similar to what we tried to do in the boardwalk thread. We never quite had enough information there either.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more what hydration you started at and how you kept increasing it with later tests until you reached the point where the dough balls could be opened and into skins like the photos and video showed, yet they were not capable of being tossed and spun.  I am not sure if those skins I saw at De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville could not be tossed and spun.  They looked to me like they could have been tossed and spun.  I would have liked to been able to get behind that counter and tried to work with their dough balls.  The skins probably could not be tossed and spun, but I would have like to been able to find out how strong they were.  I know the dough ball from De Lorenzo's/Sloan could not be tossed and spun at all because I did get a few small tears in the skin when trying to stretch it while the edges were hanging over the marble table.

I understand in my case the hydration value may be different than yours because I am using a natural 12.9 % protein flour.  I had to reflour the test dough ball because it felt like it was becoming wetter.  I did put it in the fridge too.

I know we never had enough information on the boardwalk thread either, but I thought the dough formulation you set-forth was very good. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 02:45:47 PM
Rick at DeLorenzo's Pizza told Trenton Bill and I about this award they received recently, but I just saw it posted on facebook.  It makes me wonder.  The award says DeLorenozo's pizza on Sloan was voted the Best Pizza in the 2013 Readers' Choice.

https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos (https://www.facebook.com/delorenzos)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 02:59:23 PM
Norma,

On the matter of extensibility versus elasticity, in my proposed clone dough formulations I was placing a lot of reliance on what Stuart said at Reply 282 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274719/topicseen.html#msg274719 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274719/topicseen.html#msg274719) . In that post, in addition to talking about the likelihood of Sam putting his hand through the skin were he to twirl it, Stuart mentioned how the stretching the skin and putting it on the peel was a fast part of the operation and usually reserved for the most experienced guys. If the skins were elastic at that point, or not with much extensibility, a high school kid with little experience could form the skins.

If we are wrong and the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville skins are more elastic than we have been led to believe, that is a problem that can be easily fixed.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 03:43:24 PM
Norma,

On the matter of extensibility versus elasticity, in my proposed clone dough formulations I was placing a lot of reliance on what Stuart said at Reply 282 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274719/topicseen.html#msg274719 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg274719/topicseen.html#msg274719) . In that post, in addition to talking about the likelihood of Sam putting his hand through the skin were he to twirl it, Stuart mentioned how the stretching the skin and putting it on the peel was a fast part of the operation and usually reserved for the most experienced guys. If the skins were elastic at that point, or not with much extensibility, a high school kid with little experience could form the skins.

Peter

Peter,

I recall what Stuart posted at Reply 282, but he also said in the same post “Sam seems to be close to putting his fist though it, so the dough must be decently elastic”.  If you noticed in the last photo I posted in the Reply right before Reply 282 it can be seen that Sam had his left hand on what would be the one rim and his other hand stretching the skin.  If the skin could tear easily at that point I would have thought it would have torn then, but then I am not an expert like Sam is.  I don't even know if I could stretch the skins like Sams does let alone a high school kid with little experience.  I think what Sam does comes from much experience in opening De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville skins.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 04:11:36 PM
Norma,

There are some skins that are so extensible that it is easy for them to get away from you. For the clone dough formulations I posted, I think we would have to have a hydration of around 65% for that to happen. I was able to handle the 59% hydration test dough much as shown in the photos you mentioned. But I would not have been able toss and twirl it. The skin had elasticity but it was limited. In your case, with the Pillsbury flour, you should have more elasticity for your skin than I had for mine, all else being equal. To this, I would add that commercial dough balls such as produced at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville will be of much higher quality, with better strength and elasticity characteristics, than those we make at home.

Remember, also, how a skin handles is affected by the condition of the dough ball when it is opened to form the skin. The first dough balls out of the dough boxes can often be easier to handle and form skins (they will be cooler) than those that might be used one or more hours later. In photos, there is no good way to tell where a dough ball is in its cycle when it is opened to make a skin.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 04:45:20 PM
Norma,

There are some skins that are so extensible that it is easy for them to get away from you. For the clone dough formulations I posted, I think we would have to have a hydration of around 65% for that to happen. I was able to handle the 59% hydration test dough much as shown in the photos you mentioned. But I would not have been able toss and twirl it. The skin had elasticity but it was limited. In your case, with the Pillsbury flour, you should have more elasticity for your skin than I had for mine, all else being equal. To this, I would add that commercial dough balls such as produced at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville will be of much higher quality, with better strength and elasticity characteristics, than those we make at home.

Remember, also, how a skin handles is affected by the condition of the dough ball when it is opened to form the skin. The first dough balls out of the dough boxes can often be easier to handle and form skins (they will be cooler) than those that might be used one or more hours later. In photos, there is no good way to tell where a dough ball is in its cycle when it is opened to make a skin.

Peter

Peter,

I know there are some skins that are so extensible that it is easy for them to get away from you.  I had that happen before.  Thanks for telling me you think for the clone dough formulation you posted that we would have to have a hydration of around 65% for that to happen.  Good to know I should have more elasticity from my skin than what you had.  I know that commerical dough balls such as what are produced at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville would be of much higher quality with better strength and elasticity charactristics than we can make at home.  If De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville uses dough dough/dividers rounders like Stuart posted I could think that might also make better dough balls.

Thanks for reminding me that how a skin handles is affected by the conditions of the dough ball when it is opened to form the skin.  I know my dough balls from different room temperatures and different times during the day are somewhat different in opening them.

Maybe I should have mixed the dough longer since I was using my home mixer.

I know I am also too full of questions and I appreciate you take the time to explain things to me.  I see you are very soon at 20,000 posts.  Congrats for all the help you have given all the members here on the forum, including myself. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 07:36:54 PM
Peter,

I think this De Lorenzo's/Robbinville clone dough performed just like you said it would.  The dough ball was easy to pound out and when stretching it out over the edge of my table it opened very easily.  I stretched the dough a little to 14” and I think it would have torn if I had tried to toss or twirl it.  I don't know if I should have mixed the dough more.  I wonder how easy you dough was to press out and stretch over your workspace.

I think my problem when using the BS to make this attempted De Lorenzo's clone pizza is I did not start the bake hot enough.  I loaded the pizza when the stone measured 534 degrees F.  I was worried that the long bake would burn the bottom crust at a higher heat.  I also think I left too much bench flour on the bottom skin, because the flour can been seen some on the bottom crust.  There was not any char on the top crust or bottom crust either, but that might be remedied with a higher temperature to start the bake.  The pizza was very good though, even with the things that went wrong in this attempt.  The pizza was taken out of the oven and oil was applied to the rim and also a little more cheese was applied to the pizza after the first part of the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 07:40:44 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 07:43:29 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2013, 08:23:22 PM
Norma,

All things considered, it looks like you had a good maiden voyage with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough. Your test also suggests that it may be possible to make a same day, or emergency, type De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough.

You asked how easy it was for me to press out and stretch my dough. In my case, I had let the dough warm up at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the dough ball against what I had seen in the Robbinsville photos, I flattened the dough ball into a disk. To form the skin, I aggressively pressed the disk with my fingers, just as I had seen in the photos and in the video you posted. To enlarge the skin at this point, I dusted the top of the skin with a small amount of bench flour, flipped the skin over, and then rotated the skin on my worksurface with both hands while stretching it at the same time and letting the skin hang over the edge of my countertop. When the skin became large enough for me to use my knuckles to open it further, that is what I did. I actually opened the skin beyond 14" but it shrunk back as I draped the skin onto my peel. I encountered no difficulties in executing the above sequence of steps. In fact, I impressed myself by how easy everything went. That is one of the reasons I felt comfortable with the clone dough formulation i was going to give to you. With your experience, I felt that you would be able to do what I did but even better.

Remember that my dough ball had undergone a one-day cold fermentation, which biochemically developed the gluten. Another day or two might have yielded even better results, although I would have reduced the amount of yeast in that case.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2013, 08:53:18 PM
Norma,

All things considered, it looks like you had a good maiden voyage with the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough. Your test also suggests that it may be possible to make a same day, or emergency, type De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough.

You asked how easy it was for me to press out and stretch my dough. In my case, I had let the dough warm up at room temperature for about 1 1/2 hours. In order to compare the dough ball against what I had seen in the Robbinsville photos, I flattened the dough ball into a disk. To form the skin, I aggressively pressed the disk with my fingers, just as I had seen in the photos and in the video you posted. To enlarge the skin at this point, I dusted the top of the skin with a small amount of bench flour, flipped the skin over, and then rotated the skin on my worksurface with both hands while stretching it at the same time and letting the skin hang over the edge of my countertop. When the skin became large enough for me to use my knuckles to open it further, that is what I did. I actually opened the skin beyond 14" but it shrunk back as I draped the skin onto my peel. I encountered no difficulties in executing the above sequence of steps. In fact, I impressed myself by how easy everything went. That is one of the reasons I felt comfortable with the clone dough formulation i was going to give to you. With your experience, I felt that you would be able to do what I did but even better.

Remember that my dough ball had undergone a one-day cold fermentation, which biochemically developed the gluten. Another day or two might have yielded even better results, although I would have reduced the amount of yeast in that case.

Peter

Peter,

I don't think it would be hard to make a same day, or emergency type De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough if someone might want to do that.  I only tried that because I wanted to see what would happen when using the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour, the BS and your formulation today.  I think I had put the clone dough ball into the fridge around 1:00 PM.

It sounds like you did exactly what I did except I used to much bench flour, or didn't shake the skin off enough.  I was also impressed how easy everything went. 

I can understand that your dough ball had undergone a one-day cold fermentation which biochemically developed the gluten. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 10:52:20 AM
I mixed another De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville clone dough ball this morning for a 14” pizza using the right amount of IDY set-forth in the formulation.  I mixed longer on the second mix (8minutes) after the rest period and used the flat beater only method again for mixing.  The final dough temperature was 82.4 degrees F.  The dough ball weighed 10 ounces.  I thought when I took the photo it showed 10 ounces, but when I went to upload the photos the read out is blurry. 

The dough felt very strong and balled easily.  I did flour the dough ball again, but wiped a little olive on the bottom of the plastic container so I wouldn't have any sticking issues tomorrow.  I might not have needed any olive oil because the dough ball isn't going to sit out at room temperature.  I used the olive oil/canola oil blend again in the mix.

I have been trying to figure out why my attempt last week using the dough ball from De Lorenzo's/Sloan needed olive oil on the rim in the bake to get it a little browner.  The same thing happened yesterday that the rim was almost pure white even after the pizza had baked in the BS for awhile.  For such a long bake with a thin pizza I would think the rim crust would brown faster.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 11:48:44 AM
I have been trying to figure out why my attempt last week using the dough ball from De Lorenzo's/Sloan needed olive oil on the rim in the bake to get it a little browner.  The same thing happened yesterday that the rim was almost pure white even after the pizza had baked in the BS for awhile.  For such a long bake with a thin pizza I would think the rim crust would brown faster.
Norma,

I am pretty certain that the reason you did not get good crust colorization was because of insufficient residual sugars in the dough as of the time of the bake. In the absence of added sugar (sucrose) in the dough, which eventually would be decomposed to natural sugars and also caramelize to provide additional color, the only sugars available in the dough as of the time of the bake are those natural sugars that are produced by the conversion of damaged starch in the flour by the enzymes in the flour. Part of those sugars are used as food by the yeast. In your case, since you significantly increased the amount of yeast to make your short term, same day dough, the demand of the yeast for food increased in proportion, leaving less residual sugars at the time of the bake to brown the crust. Had you added some sugar to the dough, you should have gotten more color. Using some honey in the dough might have been even better because it has some natural sugars that are immediately available for use by the yeast for fermentation purposes, whereas sugar has to be decomposed to natural sugars, which can take some time.

In the case of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, if their dough is cold fermented for say, a day, the expectation is that there will be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration. If they need to put oil on the rims of their pizzas before baking to aid in crust color development, that might mean that their residual  sugars levels are a bit on the low side. That could happen if they do not let their doughs cold ferment long enough. Another day or so of cold fermentation would generate more residual sugars. Beyond that, the residual sugars would start to decline. The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza assemblers may know from experience when they should oil the rims. While I read of the practice, I do not recall seeing oiling of the rims in any of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos or the video you posted.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 02, 2013, 12:17:10 PM
Norma, the photos look really good re: the rigidity that Robbinsville gets. A little more char...but...not as much as they did at Hudson (Sam told me initially in Robbinsville people thought the pies were burnt, so they charred them less, except on request for "Trenton style." You're onto something. But, what is that baking machine? I've never seen anything like it....

Re:oiling, they oil the pies, in some cases (I think depending on the toppings; obviously sausage doesn't need it) before any bake. But...they oil the edges (and maybe more) partway-midway through the bake to, I think, get an attractive color. I'd guess they play it "by eye", but...might do it in all cases; I don't know...and don't know why they throw some cheese on then, too...maybe for aesthetics??

I don't use sugar in my dough..and usually allow the SAF instant yeast to feast for at least 24 hours....but I'm wondering if less yeast and a little sugar would work? Though, I'm pretty sure Robbinsville uses no sugar.

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 02, 2013, 12:22:02 PM
Norma,

, I would add that commercial dough balls such as produced at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville will be of much higher quality, with better strength and elasticity characteristics, than those we make at home.


Peter

Peter, why is that? The mixing tools....the quantity they make? Are they that much better than a big Cusinart's product? I've always assumed what you say...but don't know why that should be.

And, Robbinsville/Trenton has never been willing to sell/give dough....to compare. So, I've never felt their dough.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 03:55:20 PM
Peter, why is that? The mixing tools....the quantity they make? Are they that much better than a big Cusinart's product? I've always assumed what you say...but don't know why that should be.
Stuart,

Norma should be in a better position to answer your question than I since she regularly works with both commercial and home mixing equipment. However, from what I have observed, commercial equipment is capable of making higher quality pizza dough than can be made at home using standard stand mixers, food processors and bread machines. Commercial mixers do a better job of uniformly combining, mixing and kneading the dough ingredients and, as a result, the dough balls made from the dough are more cohesive and with a better developed gluten structure. Some people are able to make dough balls at home with a comparable quality but it is hard to do as consistently as when using commercial mixers. Also, special measures may be needed in a home setting, such as sifting the flour, using the mixer attachments selectively (for example, Norma sometimes uses only the flat beater attachment of her home stand mixer), using autolyse and similar rest periods, using a combination of mixer speeds and adjusting mix and knead times, and using stretch and fold or similar techniques. Often, members who have watched videos of Tony Gemignani masterfully opening dough balls to make skins ask why they can't get the same results with their homemade dough balls. The answer is that Tony's dough balls are made with a commercial mixer and are of better quality as a result.

At the former De Lorenzo/Hudson location, Gary Amico used a Hobart mixer to make his dough. One of the photos at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html (http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html) shows that mixer. I would imagine that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location also uses a Hobart mixer. If that location also uses a dough divider/rounder, the dough balls spit out of that machine should be of high quality.

BTW, another photo at the website referenced above shows a worker adding more shredded cheese to a partially baked pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 04:49:54 PM
Norma,

While I was looking at the photo at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html (http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html) that shows Gary Amico with his Hobart mixer (see below), I noticed what appeared to be bags of flour on the floor to the left of the mixer (when viewed from the front of the mixer). I amplified the photo using my computer's zoom feature and I believe that it is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. You should amplify and then compare that photo of the flour bag with the one you showed at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619). The Gary Amico photo was taken in January, 2012, just as the Hudson location was getting ready to close its doors. I think the odds are quite good that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using the same flour. There would have been no good reason to switch flours that I can see.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 06:14:52 PM
Norma,

I am pretty certain that the reason you did not get good crust colorization was because of insufficient residual sugars in the dough as of the time of the bake. In the absence of added sugar (sucrose) in the dough, which eventually would be decomposed to natural sugars and also caramelize to provide additional color, the only sugars available in the dough as of the time of the bake are those natural sugars that are produced by the conversion of damaged starch in the flour by the enzymes in the flour. Part of those sugars are used as food by the yeast. In your case, since you significantly increased the amount of yeast to make your short term, same day dough, the demand of the yeast for food increased in proportion, leaving less residual sugars at the time of the bake to brown the crust. Had you added some sugar to the dough, you should have gotten more color. Using some honey in the dough might have been even better because it has some natural sugars that are immediately available for use by the yeast for fermentation purposes, whereas sugar has to be decomposed to natural sugars, which can take some time.

In the case of De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, if their dough is cold fermented for say, a day, the expectation is that there will be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration. If they need to put oil on the rims of their pizzas before baking to aid in crust color development, that might mean that their residual  sugars levels are a bit on the low side. That could happen if they do not let their doughs cold ferment long enough. Another day or so of cold fermentation would generate more residual sugars. Beyond that, the residual sugars would start to decline. The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza assemblers may know from experience when they should oil the rims. While I read of the practice, I do not recall seeing oiling of the rims in any of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville photos or the video you posted.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for explaining why I did not get good crust colorization.  If I ever make another fast De Lorenzo's dough I will add sugar or honey. 

I can understand if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cold ferments their dough for a a day there would be sufficient natural residual sugars in the dough to provide crust coloration.  That makes sense that the De Lorenzo's assemblers would know from experience when oil might be needed on the rim crust if they dough isn't fermented long enough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 06:31:57 PM
Norma, the photos look really good re: the rigidity that Robbinsville gets. A little more char...but...not as much as they did at Hudson (Sam told me initially in Robbinsville people thought the pies were burnt, so they charred them less, except on request for "Trenton style." You're onto something. But, what is that baking machine? I've never seen anything like it....

Re:oiling, they oil the pies, in some cases (I think depending on the toppings; obviously sausage doesn't need it) before any bake. But...they oil the edges (and maybe more) partway-midway through the bake to, I think, get an attractive color. I'd guess they play it "by eye", but...might do it in all cases; I don't know...and don't know why they throw some cheese on then, too...maybe for aesthetics??


Stuart,

Thanks for your kind comment!  I am not there yet, but with Peter's help we might get there.

That baking machine/pizza oven is a Blackstone Pizza Oven and they are a fairly new kind of pizza oven.  There is a whole thread about them at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.0.html)  The BS can bake almost any kind of pizza and sure is cool.  I started a thread when I purchased mine at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26483.0.html)  If you like to make a lot of pizzas maybe you want to purchase one too.   :-D

Thanks for telling us they do oil the pies in some cases depending on the toppings.  Do you mean they oil all the skin edges before the bake?  I didn't see that.

Do you have any photos of your De Lorenzo's/Robbinsville attempts?

I do have a 20 qt. Hobart mixer at market, and yes in my opinion it mixes doughs better.  I can try to get doughs like that at home, but most of the time I have to make changes like Peter posted to get my doughs near how my Hobart mixes.  There is a difference too in making bigger batches of dough.  My 20 qt. Hobart can't compete with the ones that are larger than mine though.  Joe Kelley from General Mills told me a bigger mixer mixes better than mine.  In my opinion the dough also mixes faster and is stronger in my Hobart.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 07:00:54 PM
Norma,

While I was looking at the photo at http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html (http://photos.nj.com/star-ledger/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre_6.html) that shows Gary Amico with his Hobart mixer (see below), I noticed what appeared to be bags of flour on the floor to the left of the mixer (when viewed from the front of the mixer). I amplified the photo using my computer's zoom feature and I believe that it is the Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour. You should amplify and then compare that photo of the flour bag with the one you showed at Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619). The Gary Amico photo was taken in January, 2012, just as the Hudson location was getting ready to close its doors. I think the odds are quite good that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using the same flour. There would have been no good reason to switch flours that I can see.

Peter

Peter,

I did not pick up when looking at that photo before that there is the Pillsbury flour that looks like Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour.  I used my computers zoom feature and saw the same thing.  Those bags of Pillsbury flour do look like my bag of Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour.  Did you notice that same yellow stuff on the dough boxes too?  I didn't even look enough when I looked at the photo before to see there was a back and next feature to show all of the photos.  Did you notice in the photo of the assembler dressing what I guess is a sausage pizza that same yellow stuff is in the dough box standing up in the corner on the right side of that photo?  I wonder what that yellow stuff is.  I would not think it would be plain semolina or cornmeal, because I think either of them would fall in the dough box.  That yellow stuff looks like it sticks and stays in place.  Do you have any idea of what that yellow substance is?  Maybe it might be semolina or cornmeal mixed with some kind of oil though.

I see where the assembler is adding more cheese.   

I see no good reason to change flours either at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville if that photo of Gary Amico was taken in January, 2012.

So much went on so quick when I was watching at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville that I know I didn't catch it all.  If I would have had a bigger memory stick on my camera I would have taken more videos.  If I also lived closer to De Lorenzo/Robbinsville I would investigate more too on how they really bake and dress their pizzas.  I did not see any oiling of the rims at De Lorenzo/Robbinville, but I could have missed them doing that.  I was too busy trying to chat to the assemblers and trying to take photos and take everything in I could.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
Norma,

In the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer, the dough box on the table seems to have the yellow stuff in it too. I didn't pick up on the dough box in the other photo you showed. I suppose that it is possible that the bottom inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface. Or maybe the semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled over the bottom inside surface of the dough box and the dough balls themselves are oiled before putting them into the dough box. In either case, I think that at least some of the semolina or cornmeal would stick in place. However, I did not see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary is forming the dough balls. I don't know if you saw it, but on a rack on the side wall there is a yellow gallon-sized jug. That jug looks like the one that was in the video that you took and posted. Maybe that is the oil blend. I couldn't make out anything on the jug when I magnified the photo.

Further to the oil matter, you will recall that Stuart said that he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. Maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact. If that is the case, 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much.

Logically, as between the two approaches mentioned above, I would tend to go with the method where the inside bottom surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then sprinkled with semolina or cornmeal. Mixing oil with semolina or cornmeal and trying to spread the mix in the dough boxes would seem to be messier than the methods I mentioned.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 08:37:48 PM
Norma,

In the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer, the dough box on the table seems to have the yellow stuff in it too. I didn't pick up on the dough box in the other photo you showed. I suppose that it is possible that the bottom inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface. Or maybe the semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled over the bottom inside surface of the dough box and the dough balls themselves are oiled before putting them into the dough box. In either case, I think that at least some of the semolina or cornmeal would stick in place. However, I did not see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary is forming the dough balls. I don't know if you saw it, but on a rack on the side wall there is a yellow gallon-sized jug. That jug looks like the one that was in the video that you took and posted. Maybe that is the oil blend. I couldn't make out anything on the jug when I magnified the photo.

Further to the oil matter, you will recall that Stuart said that he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. Maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact. If that is the case, 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much.

Logically, as between the two approaches mentioned above, I would tend to go with the method where the inside bottom surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and then sprinkled with semolina or cornmeal. Mixing oil with semolina or cornmeal and trying to spread the mix in the dough boxes would seem to be messier than the methods I mentioned.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that the photo with Gary and the Hobart mixer the dough box on the table seems to have that yellow stuff in too.  You are probably right that that inside surface of the dough box is brushed with oil and semolina or cornmeal is sprinkled on top of the oiled surface.  I didn't see any signs of oiling of the dough balls in the area where Gary was forming the dough balls either.  I did see the yellow gallon-sized jug on a rack on the side wall.  I know it looks like the yellow jug I saw at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  If only would have been a little taller maybe I could have seen what kind of oil was in that gallon-sized yellow container.  I think it is probably the oil blend.  I could not make out anything on the jug when I magnified that photo either. 

I do recall Stuart said he was told by Sam there was not much oil in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.  You could be right that maybe the only oil that is in the dough is the oil in the dough boxes that ends up in the dough by physical contact.  I didn't think about that if only oil is put in the dough boxes some way and no oil is put into the dough that the 1% oil blend in the clone dough formulation would be too much. 

I did oil the bottom of my plastic container today after I floured the dough ball. I will see what happens tomorrow.  Another thing I thought was interesting from the photo you posted of Gary is he doesn't look like he flours the dough balls at all.  I would think they might dry out some from not oiling or flouring the dough balls.  That big piece of dough looks kind of ragged to me and not fully mixed.  Is that your thoughts too?  The dough balls in the dough box don't look really balled well either.  I have no idea, but maybe oil could be sprayed on the cornmeal or semolina too to make it like an even texture to put the dough balls on top of. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 09:09:40 PM
I didn't really look closely at this one photo either in this link, http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html) but in the right hand corner I think that says Sorrento cheese on part of the bag that can be viewed.  In that link you can choose fullscreen to view the photos.  Those photos were taken at De Lorenzo/Hudson.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 09:25:03 PM
I did oil the bottom of my plastic container today after I floured the dough ball. I will see what happens tomorrow.  Another thing I thought was interesting from the photo you posted of Gary is he doesn't look like he flours the dough balls at all.  I would think they might dry out some from not oiling or flouring the dough balls.  That big piece of dough looks kind of ragged to me and not fully mixed.  Is that your thoughts too?  The dough balls in the dough box don't look really balled well either.  I have no idea, but maybe oil could be sprayed on the cornmeal or semolina too to make it like an even texture to put the dough balls on top of. 
Norma,

I don't think I can completely figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from the photo. It is just a single snapshot in time. We don't really know what happened before or after that snapshot. But I do agree that the dough mass on the bench and the dough balls do look on the scruffy side. However, after decades of making dough balls, Gary must have known what he was doing and the reasons for his methods.

I forgot to mention it earlier but today I did a search to find sources of blends of olive oil and either canola or soybean oil. I was thinking of an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend or an 80/20 olive oil/soybean oil blend. Surprisingly, the 80/20 blends that I found were either 80% canola oil or 80% soybean oil and only 20% for the olive oil. And the canola blend seemed to be more prevalent than the soybean blend. Since all of the articles I read on this point said that the De Lorenzos drizzled olive oil on the pizzas, I assumed that the olive oil was the predominant oil in the blend. That may well be true but I could not find an 80/20 blend where the olive oil was 80%. Maybe I need to do a more thorough search.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2013, 09:47:13 PM
I didn't really look closely at this one photo either in this link, http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_tre.html) but in the right hand corner I think that says Sorrento cheese on part of the bag that can be viewed.  In that link you can choose fullscreen to view the photos.  Those photos were taken at De Lorenzo/Hudson.
Norma,

I think you are right. In its packaging, Sorrento uses the big capital S followed by the small o: http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sorrento-wm-mozzarella-provolone-shred-5-lb-bag/162941.ip (http://www.samsclub.com/sams/sorrento-wm-mozzarella-provolone-shred-5-lb-bag/162941.ip)

Since De Lorenzo/Robbinsville tried to pattern itself after De Lorenzo/Hudson, it is probable that they are also using the Sorrento mozzarella cheese.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2013, 09:57:18 PM
Norma,

I don't think I can completely figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from the photo. It is just a single snapshot in time. We don't really know what happened before or after that snapshot. But I do agree that the dough mass on the bench and the dough balls do look on the scruffy side. However, after decades of making dough balls, Gary must have known what he was doing and the reasons for his methods.

I forgot to mention it earlier but today I did a search to find sources of blends of olive oil and either canola or soybean oil. I was thinking of an 80/20 olive oil/canola oil blend or an 80/20 olive oil/soybean oil blend. Surprisingly, the 80/20 blends that I found were either 80% canola oil or 80% soybean oil and only 20% for the olive oil. And the canola blend seemed to be more prevalent than the soybean blend. Since all of the articles I read on this point said that the De Lorenzos drizzled olive oil on the pizzas, I assumed that the olive oil was the predominant oil in the blend. That may well be true but I could not find an 80/20 blend where the olive oil was 80%. Maybe I need to do a more thorough search.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that it is hard to figure out what is going on with the dough and dough balls just from one photo.  I agree too that Gary after making dough and dough balls for many years had a method and reason for what he was doing.

Your mind must have been thinking somewhat like mine was. When I was at the webstaruantstore on Saturday I was looking to see if they carried any olive pomance oils and they did.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon/101OLIVEPOMC.html)  and they even had a yellow container with a green lid, but it was a soya/olive oil blend.  http://www.webstaurantstore.com/admiration-1-gallon-soya-olive-oil-blend-6-case/101SOYABLEND.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/admiration-1-gallon-soya-olive-oil-blend-6-case/101SOYABLEND.html)

I wonder if it is just olive oil that De Lorenozo's drizzles on their pizzas, or if it is more predominate in another oil.  I really don't think there would be a way to tell what kind of oil/blend they are using unless someone tasted it.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 12:15:38 AM


I wonder if it is just olive oil that De Lorenozo's drizzles on their pizzas, or if it is more predominate in another oil.  I really don't think there would be a way to tell what kind of oil/blend they are using unless someone tasted it.

Norma
Rest assured...whatever it is it is something inexpensive.  ;)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 06:45:24 AM
Rest assured...whatever it is it is something inexpensive.  ;)

Bob,

I have no idea what kind of olive oil/oil blend De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using now, but it appears lighter in color than what they might have used before.  It is hard to really tell what color the oil is because it is in those plastic bottles. 

I watched the video I posted again last evening and didn't pick it up before when watching it but the assembler that was forming those skins and opening the skins more had behind him the dough boxes with some kind of yellow stuff in the dough boxes. I saw that yellow stuff in two of the photos I posted too.  The yellow stuff left in those empty dough boxes didn't appear to be as heavy as in some of those photos that from that other article Peter posted the link to.  Those skins looked a lot stronger than mine did yesterday or when I tried that attempt in the BS.

This is a photo of the Filippo Berios olive oil I have been using at home and at market for my attempts.

I have no idea why, but the bottom crust on my attempt yesterday was almost white, except for some char.  My regular bottom crusts browned well yesterday.  I don't know if that yellow stuff with what ever oil blend might help brown the bottom crust or not.  I had talked to Trenton Bill on Monday evening and I asked him if he recalls any semolina or cornmeal on the bottom crust of the pizza we ate and he said no he didn't see or taste any cornmeal or semolina on the bottom crust of the pizza we ate.  Bill does use semolina to put on the bottom of some of his dough balls at home in a plastic container and uses semolina on his wooden peel sometimes.  Bill also tried a Peter's formulation in his BS on Monday and said his bottom crust was almost white too and he baked at a higher temperature than I did.  Bill used Hecker's flour though so I don't know if that made any difference in how his pizza browned on the bottom crust.  Bill said his dough ball opened very easily though.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 07:48:00 AM
The attempt on the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone did not go well yesterday.  First the dough ball looked more fermented than I wanted it too even though it was kept in my deli case from the day before at 36 degrees F.  I didn't use the poppy seed trick, but it looked like the dough ball had fermented 3 times its size or more.  To add to that after I left the dough ball warm up at about 86 degrees F and wanted to use it we became too busy and the dough ball sat out until a bubble formed on the top of the dough ball.  I then pinched the bubble until it broke, the dough ball then was floured and I started to pound on the dough ball with my finger tips.  The dough ball was almost ready to be opened more over the marble table.  I thought we had enough pizzas made ahead at that time, but a customer came and wanted two whole pizzas.  Things went downhill more then.  I put plastic wrap on the partially open dough ball to keep it from drying out.  We became busier and sold out of all the pizzas in the display case so we had to make more pizzas before I could try to open the skin more over the marble table.  By that time the skin had dried out a little, but not a lot.  I could not drape the skin over my marble table to open it more.  I had to gently stretch the skin open more.  I know if I would have tried to open the skin over the marble table it would have torn.  There were no fermentation bubbles in the dough though. 

To add to the above, the Red Pack/6 in 1's sauce became too watery from defrosting them I guess.  I did drain what I thought was enough liquid off with a strainer, but think I drained too much liquid off.  I thought I had pressed enough on the rim so a bigger rim would not form, but I guess that wasn't the case, because a bigger rim formed while the pizza was baking.

I did oil the rim after the pizza had set and was baking a little more.  The pizza took a little over 9 minutes to bake.  I thought if I baked it anymore the cheese might not be right and the bottom rim edges were dark enough already. 

I knew right after the attempt was taken out of the oven and Steve cut it there didn't sound like any crunch in the middle of the pizza when it was cut.  I said to Steve that was not a good sign because it should have crunched the whole way though when it was cut.  The edges and part way to the middle of the pizza did crunch, but the middle was too soft.  It can be seen while the slice was piping hot how the slice wanted to droop.  I knew then this attempt clone pizza was a failure in more ways than one.

I have no idea why the middle bottom crust didn't want to brown more in the fairly long bake, or why the pizza in the middle of the bottom crust was too soft.  The pizza did brown around the bottom edge crust with some char, but the middle was too white.

Trenton Bill told me the same thing that he bottom middle crust was too soft even though his rim edges were crunchy and his middle crust was too white too.  He did use his dough ball when it should have been used and did do a one day cold ferment with no problems in between like I had.

I did not take a photo of the dough ball after it came out of the deli case.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 07:52:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 07:55:22 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 09:10:21 AM
Norma,

I'm sorry to hear that your first attempt at market using the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough did not turn out as you would have hoped.

From what you reported, there may be a couple of explanations for the results you got.

First, it is possible that the dough overfermented. With all the interruptions that surrounded the making of the pizza, coupled with a high ambient temperature (86 degrees F), it is possible that the dough overproofed and went beyond its prime time to use and was coupled with excessive extensibility. Overfermented doughs commonly result in a crust that does not brown, or brown sufficiently because of depletion of the residual sugars that are needed to get crust color. Do you recall offhand how long the dough and skin sat at ambient temperature before using? Normally, dough balls brought out of the cooler to be used over a period of time will last a few hours longer without any problem although they will usually be softer because of their longer exposure to the ambient temperature.

If the above explanation doesn't apply in your case. it is possible that you needed some sugar in your dough. That applies only to the crust coloration issue. As you know, I designed the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for a one-day cold fermentation to allow you to make the dough on a Monday for use on Tuesday, rather than making the dough on a Friday for the following Tuesday use, which would require a significant reduction in the amount of yeast. Some of the member reports on the duration of the cold fermentation used by De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and the former Hudson location were a bit unclear although member bfx9 reported at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168/topicseen.html#msg145168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168/topicseen.html#msg145168) that he was told by a server that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cold fermented their dough for at least a couple of days. Going beyond two days without sugar in the dough is perhaps on the cusp but if the amount of yeast is low, and the temperatures are controlled to support a long, slow fermentation, it is possible to go to, say, three days without added sugar in the dough.

When I was conducting my research for this project, I looked for photos of the bottom crusts of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson pizzas. There were surprisingly few. One that I found is at DeLorenzo’s Tomato Pies (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicksherman/7538764170/#). Actually. I thought a better comparison was between the photo of the bottom crust of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and showed at Reply 327 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275411.html#msg275411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275411.html#msg275411) and the photos you posted this morning at Replies 497 and 498. Yes, there are some differences in the intensity of the crust coloration but this is not something I would worry about since, absent some operational issues with your deck oven, this is a problem that should be correctable. However, you may have to repeat the exercise under the proper conditions to see if sugar is the issue.

You mentioned that the pizza you made had soft pieces that did not stand out straight as well as crunchy ones. Throughout all my research, and for the clone De Lorenzo/Hudson clone pizzas that I reported on at the Trenton thread, this was a nagging issue. Members frequently commented that there were some wide variations in the Hudson pizzas. These variations included a mix of soft and crunchy pieces. And some of the crunchy pieces gave the members' jaws a real workout. It seemed to me to be rather rare for all of the pieces of the De Lorenzo/Hudson pizzas to be crunchy. Of course, the amounts of toppings was also a factor in what one would get in terms of crunchiness, as well as the size of the pizza.

An example of what appears to be a less than rigid De Lorenzo/Robbinsville slice can be seen in the photo at http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html).

The above said, I am heartened by the form factor of the pizza you made, especially the thickness factor aspect of the pizza. Does it appear to you that the thickness crust of the pizza, and of your BS pizza as well, were in line with the pizza you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 11:11:08 AM
Norma,

I'm sorry to hear that your first attempt at market using the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough did not turn out as you would have hoped.

From what you reported, there may be a couple of explanations for the results you got.

First, it is possible that the dough overfermented. With all the interruptions that surrounded the making of the pizza, coupled with a high ambient temperature (86 degrees F), it is possible that the dough overproofed and went beyond its prime time to use and was coupled with excessive extensibility. Overfermented doughs commonly result in a crust that does not brown, or brown sufficiently because of depletion of the residual sugars that are needed to get crust color. Do you recall offhand how long the dough and skin sat at ambient temperature before using? Normally, dough balls brought out of the cooler to be used over a period of time will last a few hours longer without any problem although they will usually be softer because of their longer exposure to the ambient temperature.

If the above explanation doesn't apply in your case. it is possible that you needed some sugar in your dough. That applies only to the crust coloration issue. As you know, I designed the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for a one-day cold fermentation to allow you to make the dough on a Monday for use on Tuesday, rather than making the dough on a Friday for the following Tuesday use, which would require a significant reduction in the amount of yeast. Some of the member reports on the duration of the cold fermentation used by De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and the former Hudson location were a bit unclear although member bfx9 reported at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168/topicseen.html#msg145168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg145168/topicseen.html#msg145168) that he was told by a server that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cold fermented their dough for at least a couple of days. Going beyond two days without sugar in the dough is perhaps on the cusp but if the amount of yeast is low, and the temperatures are controlled to support a long, slow fermentation, it is possible to go to, say, three days without added sugar in the dough.

When I was conducting my research for this project, I looked for photos of the bottom crusts of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson pizzas. There were surprisingly few. One that I found is at DeLorenzo’s Tomato Pies (http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicksherman/7538764170/#). Actually. I thought a better comparison was between the photo of the bottom crust of the pizza that you and Trenton Bill had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville and showed at Reply 327 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275411.html#msg275411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275411.html#msg275411) and the photos you posted this morning at Replies 497 and 498. Yes, there are some differences in the intensity of the crust coloration but this is not something I would worry about since, absent some operational issues with your deck oven, this is a problem that should be correctable. However, you may have to repeat the exercise under the proper conditions to see if sugar is the issue.

You mentioned that the pizza you made had soft pieces that did not stand out straight as well as crunchy ones. Throughout all my research, and for the clone De Lorenzo/Hudson clone pizzas that I reported on at the Trenton thread, this was a nagging issue. Members frequently commented that there were some wide variations in the Hudson pizzas. These variations included a mix of soft and crunchy pieces. And some of the crunchy pieces gave the members' jaws a real workout. It seemed to me to be rather rare for all of the pieces of the De Lorenzo/Hudson pizzas to be crunchy. Of course, the amounts of toppings was also a factor in what one would get in terms of crunchiness, as well as the size of the pizza.

An example of what appears to be a less than rigid De Lorenzo/Robbinsville slice can be seen in the photo at http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2008/04/delorenzos_fans_rejoice_new_si.html).

The above said, I am heartened by the form factor of the pizza you made, especially the thickness factor aspect of the pizza. Does it appear to you that the thickness crust of the pizza, and of your BS pizza as well, were in line with the pizza you had at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville?

Peter

Peter,

I really did not expect to get a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza in few attempts.  That is something that might be learned with more experiments.

I think you might be right that my De Lorenzo/Robbinsville might have overfermented at least from the standpoint of it being too extensible.  It it was a regular dough I would not have said it was overfermented, because there was only one bubble on the dough and it at first seemed to press out okay.  I do think the formulation is giving a dough ball that might be too easy to press out though and possibly isn't elastic enough, at least after looking at the video I posted again.  I don't think I would have had the problems of browning of a bottom crust or rim crust with a regular dough either.  I also had the same problems with a whiter bottom crust in my BS.  To me the soft part was way too soft and almost soggy in the middle.  Not many of my slices stood straight out.  This attempt didn't taste anything like the pizza Bill and I shared at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I would say the rim crust and bottom crust were all crunchy at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville until the pizza really cooled down. 

The TF does seem good in your formulation for the pizza we ate at De Lorenzo/Robbinville.   

I also found this article about De Lorenzo/Sloan and I know that article isn't about De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, but in the article it says this is a thin-crust pizza baked almost crispy with just the right amount of flexibility and small bits of charring occasionally visible on the bottom.  Although the pizza Trenton Bill and I shared at DE Lorenzo/Sloan wasn't like that description in the article I would think the DE Lorenzo clan has it all figured out if they would only use the same dressings.  Since I also tasted Papa's pizza and found I didn't like the way I thought the bottom crust was burnt or almost burnt, I found it interesting that Bill and I both did like the parts on DE Lorenzo/Robbinsville that looked burnt and those parts really didn't taste burnt at all.  I wonder why that is too that some bottom crusts taste burnt and some don't.  http://www.nj.com/times-opinion/index.ssf/2013/05/bill_of_fare_delorenzos_brings.html (http://www.nj.com/times-opinion/index.ssf/2013/05/bill_of_fare_delorenzos_brings.html)

I also just want to throw this in when I did the gluten mass test on the DE Lorenzo/Sloan piece of dough.  I know they do use cornmeal or semolina on their bench table, but didn't see any signs of any semolina or cornmeal, or that bright yellow stuff in their dough trays, but then they might have been too far away enough for my eyes maybe not to see them right.  I wish now I would have taken a photo of those dough trays to examine more.  I am pretty sure I felt semolina or cornmeal in their dough when doing the gluten mass test.  Did you ever try to dissolve cornmeal or semolina in water to see what would happen?  Bill or I couldn't detect any cornmeal or semolina in the bottom crust of the pizza we ate at De Lorenzo/Sloan.  I find that a bit strange too, unless it was a too small amount that we could not detect it.  It even makes me wonder if both locations might be using cornmeal or semolina in their doughs when mixing. 

To add something that is quite amusing Bill told me he had better results in trying to make a De Lorenzo's clone when using the same formulation I use for market but making it much thinner and then rolling the dough out.  I told Bill that the formulation I use is nothing like a De Lorenzo's clone and I do see many fermentation bubbles in my dough.  Bill told me he uses a different mixing method than I do when he uses my dough formulation and doesn't get any fermentation bubbles in his dough from a one day cold ferment.  The only two things he said he does different than I do is gives the dough a longer rest period (20 minutes) between mixes and mixes the salt in last.   

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 11:42:30 AM
Norma,

I would not have expected the BS version of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to produce the same product as they sell. When I came up with all of the Papa John's clones, the benchmark was the 3-8 day dough (cold fermented) since that is what my research showed PJ was using. When I came up with different versions, which required that I modify the original dough formulation, they didn't produce the identical results as the 3-8 day dough. Some were quite close, but others were clearly different, even if they were very good. Two things that are different can't produce the identical results. Also, all of my clones were baked the same way in the same oven, so the oven was not a variable for me to worry about.

As for your question about the semolina and cornmeal, no, I do not believe that I ever tried dispersing them in water. All that members have reported, and in some cases in detail, is the use of semolina (or maybe cornmeal) in the usual manner.

I think you will find my next post of interest in that it deals with the matter of hydration in the context of De Lorenzo tomato pies/pizzas. At some point, based on what you observed, we can lower the hydration value in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation. As I mentioned previously, I aimed high on the hydration to see what results you would get. Finding an outer limit makes it easier to change course and go in the other direction. At some point, you hopefully find the sweet spot.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 11:51:22 AM
Norma,

As you were testing your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough, I was back in the kitchen doing some testing.

In light of the results that you reported on your hydration bake tests on the large De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball, and especially the last two results (6.18 grams and 6.04 grams final weight starting with 10-gram dough pieces), I decided to try to come up with a clone dough formulation that would approximate your results, and also to conduct a hydration bake test on the dough made with that clone dough formulation.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), this is the clone dough formulation I settled upon for the test:

General Mills All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (47.5%):
IDY (0.55%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (155.05%):
207.86 g  |  7.33 oz | 0.46 lbs
98.73 g  |  3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.14 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
2.08 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
8.31 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.83 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
4.16 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A
*The General Mills All-Purpose Flour/ VWG Blend comprises the General Mills All-Purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to have a protein content for the blend of 12.9%
Note: The dough (11.2 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 11.2/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There are a few things in the above dough formulation that need explanation. First, I used an amount of yeast, 0.55% IDY, that was selected to compensate for the low hydration value (47.5%) so that the dough would just about double in volume after a cold fermentation of one day. As it turned out, that value was almost exactly right. The dough increased by 225% (a bit over a doubling) after exactly 24 hours. Second, I added 4% oil. I calculated that without oil there would be no way for the dough made using my test dough formulation to have a water content of around 39% that your results (the last two hydration bake tests) suggested. Third, I added 2% sugar. I did this to see if a sample of the dough used to conduct the hydration bake test would develop noticeable crust coloration during the course of the bake test. You might recall that the samples of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough that you used for your hydration bake tests did not have a lot of color when you conducted those tests. Finally, I settled on 1% salt, which is a low value that was based on your observations with Steve relative to the salt in the dough ball you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan..

The dough for this test was made using a combination of my food processor and KitchenAid stand mixer. This was a difficult process. I started with the food processor, which produced a coarse texture, and then finished kneading the dough in my KitchenAid stand mixer along with some final hand kneading. With some struggling, I managed to end up with a dough that was cohesive but on the fairly dry side. That dough was handled from that point forward just like my last De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test dough in all material respects. After a day of cold fermentation, I tempered the dough ball, which I had first flattened into a disk shape, for about 1 ½ hours, and then formed it into a 14” skin, using exactly the same procedures as the last De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test clone dough.

The latest dough did not handle as nicely as the last one but I had no problem forming the dough into a skin. However, like you, I noticed that the skin was still fragile and a small hole developed in the skin as I formed it. I had used cornmeal in the dough storage bowl in lieu of semolina and some of that cornmeal adhered to the skin and was a bit rough to the touch. With this part of the test out of the way and having satisfied myself that is was possible to make a fairly low hydration dough that might work in a De Lorenzo/Sloan environment, I conducted the hydration bake test.

To conduct the hydration bake test, I took a 10-gram sample of the skin and flattened it into a thin disk, which I then put into my 2 ½” metal jar lid. The sample and lid went into my countertop toaster oven that I had set at a temperature of around 425 degrees F. When the sample puffed up (by about 3/8”-1/2”), I slit the disk in half right down the middle into two like pieces and pierced the two pieces with the tip of a sharp knife. I then baked the two sample pieces, side by side, at a temperature of around 260 degrees F. After a few hours, and a few weighings, I concluded that the weight of the two sample pieces had stabilized. At this point, the two sample pieces had turned a rather dark brown. This was most likely because of the sugar in the dough. However, rather than use the combined weight of the two sample pieces and call it a day, I decided to break the two sample pieces into pieces of about an 1/8”-¼” in size and to recommence the bake. This reduced the amount of water in the sample pieces even more, but not by much. And. eventually, the weights stabilized. The total elapsed bake time from start to finish, and excluding periodic removal and weighing of the sample pieces to determine if the weights had stabilized, was around five hours.

When I calculated the weight loss of the starting 10-gram sample, it was around 37.5%. I compared this value against a value that I had calculated using the above dough formulation assuming a moisture content of the flour of 14%. That is the standard industry standard for many, if not most, U.S. white flours. The calculated value was 39.1%. However, it is unlikely that my flour, which is a few months old, has a moisture content of 14%. As Tom Lehmann discusses at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3433.msg29165.html#msg29165 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3433.msg29165.html#msg29165), by the time flour reaches the end user from the miller/supplier, its moisture content can be around 12% and, over time, can go a bit lower. If I assume a moisture content of 12% for my flour, the water content as a percent of the total dough weight goes to 38.4%; at 11% moisture content, the number goes to 37.73%. As you can see, the adjusted numbers are fairly close to the 37.5% number that resulted from my hydration bake test.

I mention all of the above because the results of my experiments seem to lend credence to the hydration bake tests values that you got from your last two tests. Of course, we don’t know exactly what is in the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough but if my analysis is correct, it would seem to suggest that De Lorenzo/Sloan dough does not have a particularly high hydration and it may have a fair amount of oil in it to achieve an “effective” hydration high enough to make the dough easier to make and handle. But it might also mean that one needs a commercial mixer to make the dough with the desired finished characteristics.

Although I am not trying to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, if I were to conduct a follow-up test dough along the lines of the last one as discussed above, the dough formulation would perhaps look like this:

General Mills All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (48%):
IDY (0.53%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (154.53%):
208.56 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
100.11 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
10.43 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.3 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A
*The General Mills All-Purpose Flour/ VWG Blend comprises the General Mills All-Purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to have a protein content for the blend of 12.9%
Note: The dough (11.2 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 11.2/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note the absence of sugar in the above dough formulation, and a slightly lower amount of yeast to compensate for the increased hydration value (48%). There is a slight increase in the oil to 5%, so that the “effective” hydration goes to 53%. That should make it a bit easier to make the dough, maybe even in a home setting. The salt remains at 1%.

With the above changes, the calculated water loss assuming 14% moisture content of the flour is 40.1%. At 11% moisture content, the weight loss is about 38.2%. I think these numbers match up reasonably well with the values discussed above.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 12:47:30 PM
Peter, I'd like to try this....

General Mills All-PurposeFlour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (48%):
IDY (0.53%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (154.53%):
   208.56 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
100.11 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
10.43 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.3 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A

Would Gold Medal AP and vwg work with your above formula?  Only a 24 ferment?
Thank you.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 12:49:42 PM
Norma,

I would not have expected the BS version of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to produce the same product as they sell. When I came up with all of the Papa John's clones, the benchmark was the 3-8 day dough (cold fermented) since that is what my research showed PJ was using. When I came up with different versions, which required that I modify the original dough formulation, they didn't produce the identical results as the 3-8 day dough. Some were quite close, but others were clearly different, even if they were very good. Two things that are different can't produce the identical results. Also, all of my clones were baked the same way in the same oven, so the oven was not a variable for me to worry about.

As for your question about the semolina and cornmeal, no, I do not believe that I ever tried dispersing them in water. All that members have reported, and in some cases in detail, is the use of semolina (or maybe cornmeal) in the usual manner.

I think you will find my next post of interest in that it deals with the matter of hydration in the context of De Lorenzo tomato pies/pizzas. At some point, based on what you observed, we can lower the hydration value in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation. As I mentioned previously, I aimed high on the hydration to see what results you would get. Finding an outer limit makes it easier to change course and go in the other direction. At some point, you hopefully find the sweet spot.

Peter

Peter,

I know it takes awhile to get things in order for a clone pizza, just like you found out when doing the research and tests for a PJ clone that different results can be had by making changes.  I know that by just making a few changes at a time for my boardwalk market dough. 

Cloning a pizza like the De Lorenzo's clone can be more difficult because there are no Nutritional Facts.  I know it you didn't have a different oven to worry about either in your PJ clone pizzas.

I know you said you started the hydration level on the higher side too.  I will be most interested in your next formulation you set-forth for a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 01:02:03 PM
Peter, I'd like to try this....

General Mills All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (48%):
IDY (0.53%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (154.53%):
   208.56 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
100.11 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
10.43 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.3 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A

Would Gold Medal AP and vwg work with your above formula?  Only a 24 ferment?
Thank you.
Bob,

Yes, the above blend should work--at least better than the last dough from the standpoint of making the dough--and is intended to be for a 24-hour cold ferment. I selected the yeast quantity based on the hydration of the dough, hoping that it would achieve a doubling or thereabouts after 24 hours of cold fermentation.

If you have an array of flours on hand, there may be a blend that can be created that is better than the one given above with the VWG. If you tell me what flours and brands you have on hand, I may be able to create a better blend for you. If you decide to go with the Gold Medal all-purpose flour and you tell me the brand of VWG you have, I can help you with the quantities of each to use.

I can't tell you how well the formulation will work since we know little about the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough beyond the type and brand of flour used. The formulation is built strictly around Norma's data from the tests she conducted with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball she purchased.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 01:05:00 PM
Norma,

As you were testing your De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough, I was back in the kitchen doing some testing.

In light of the results that you reported on your hydration bake tests on the large De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball, and especially the last two results (6.18 grams and 6.04 grams final weight starting with 10-gram dough pieces), I decided to try to come up with a clone dough formulation that would approximate your results, and also to conduct a hydration bake test on the dough made with that clone dough formulation.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html), this is the clone dough formulation I settled upon for the test:

General Mills All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (47.5%):
IDY (0.55%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (155.05%):
207.86 g  |  7.33 oz | 0.46 lbs
98.73 g  |  3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.14 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
2.08 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
8.31 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.83 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
4.16 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A
*The General Mills All-Purpose Flour/ VWG Blend comprises the General Mills All-Purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to have a protein content for the blend of 12.9%
Note: The dough (11.2 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 11.2/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There are a few things in the above dough formulation that need explanation. First, I used an amount of yeast, 0.55% IDY, that was selected to compensate for the low hydration value (47.5%) so that the dough would just about double in volume after a cold fermentation of one day. As it turned out, that value was almost exactly right. The dough increased by 225% (a bit over a doubling) after exactly 24 hours. Second, I added 4% oil. I calculated that without oil there would be no way for the dough made using my test dough formulation to have a water content of around 39% that your results (the last two hydration bake tests) suggested. Third, I added 2% sugar. I did this to see if a sample of the dough used to conduct the hydration bake test would develop noticeable crust coloration during the course of the bake test. You might recall that the samples of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough that you used for your hydration bake tests did not have a lot of color when you conducted those tests. Finally, I settled on 1% salt, which is a low value that was based on your observations with Steve relative to the salt in the dough ball you purchased from De Lorenzo/Sloan..

The dough for this test was made using a combination of my food processor and KitchenAid stand mixer. This was a difficult process. I started with the food processor, which produced a coarse texture, and then finished kneading the dough in my KitchenAid stand mixer along with some final hand kneading. With some struggling, I managed to end up with a dough that was cohesive but on the fairly dry side. That dough was handled from that point forward just like my last De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test dough in all material respects. After a day of cold fermentation, I tempered the dough ball, which I had first flattened into a disk shape, for about 1 ½ hours, and then formed it into a 14” skin, using exactly the same procedures as the last De Lorenzo/Robbinsville test clone dough.

The latest dough did not handle as nicely as the last one but I had no problem forming the dough into a skin. However, like you, I noticed that the skin was still fragile and a small hole developed in the skin as I formed it. I had used cornmeal in the dough storage bowl in lieu of semolina and some of that cornmeal adhered to the skin and was a bit rough to the touch. With this part of the test out of the way and having satisfied myself that is was possible to make a fairly low hydration dough that might work in a De Lorenzo/Sloan environment, I conducted the hydration bake test.

To conduct the hydration bake test, I took a 10-gram sample of the skin and flattened it into a thin disk, which I then put into my 2 ½” metal jar lid. The sample and lid went into my countertop toaster oven that I had set at a temperature of around 425 degrees F. When the sample puffed up (by about 3/8”-1/2”), I slit the disk in half right down the middle into two like pieces and pierced the two pieces with the tip of a sharp knife. I then baked the two sample pieces, side by side, at a temperature of around 260 degrees F. After a few hours, and a few weighings, I concluded that the weight of the two sample pieces had stabilized. At this point, the two sample pieces had turned a rather dark brown. This was most likely because of the sugar in the dough. However, rather than use the combined weight of the two sample pieces and call it a day, I decided to break the two sample pieces into pieces of about an 1/8”-¼” in size and to recommence the bake. This reduced the amount of water in the sample pieces even more, but not by much. And. eventually, the weights stabilized. The total elapsed bake time from start to finish, and excluding periodic removal and weighing of the sample pieces to determine if the weights had stabilized, was around five hours.

When I calculated the weight loss of the starting 10-gram sample, it was around 37.5%. I compared this value against a value that I had calculated using the above dough formulation assuming a moisture content of the flour of 14%. That is the standard industry standard for many, if not most, U.S. white flours. The calculated value was 39.1%. However, it is unlikely that my flour, which is a few months old, has a moisture content of 14%. As Tom Lehmann discusses at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3433.msg29165.html#msg29165 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3433.msg29165.html#msg29165), by the time flour reaches the end user from the miller/supplier, its moisture content can be around 12% and, over time, can go a bit lower. If I assume a moisture content of 12% for my flour, the water content as a percent of the total dough weight goes to 38.4%; at 11% moisture content, the number goes to 37.73%. As you can see, the adjusted numbers are fairly close to the 37.5% number that resulted from my hydration bake test.

I mention all of the above because the results of my experiments seem to lend credence to the hydration bake tests values that you got from your last two tests. Of course, we don’t know exactly what is in the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough but if my analysis is correct, it would seem to suggest that De Lorenzo/Sloan dough does not have a particularly high hydration and it may have a fair amount of oil in it to achieve an “effective” hydration high enough to make the dough easier to make and handle. But it might also mean that one needs a commercial mixer to make the dough with the desired finished characteristics.

Although I am not trying to reverse engineer and clone the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough, if I were to conduct a follow-up test dough along the lines of the last one as discussed above, the dough formulation would perhaps look like this:

General Mills All-Purpose Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (48%):
IDY (0.53%):
Salt (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5%):
Total (154.53%):
208.56 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
100.11 g  |  3.53 oz | 0.22 lbs
1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
10.43 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.3 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
322.28 g | 11.37 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = N/A
*The General Mills All-Purpose Flour/ VWG Blend comprises the General Mills All-Purpose flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG) to have a protein content for the blend of 12.9%
Note: The dough (11.2 ounces) is for a single 14” pizza; the corresponding thickness factor = 11.2/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.07276; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

You will note the absence of sugar in the above dough formulation, and a slightly lower amount of yeast to compensate for the increased hydration value (48%). There is a slight increase in the oil to 5%, so that the “effective” hydration goes to 53%. That should make it a bit easier to make the dough, maybe even in a home setting. The salt remains at 1%.

With the above changes, the calculated water loss assuming 14% moisture content of the flour is 40.1%. At 11% moisture content, the weight loss is about 38.2%. I think these numbers match up reasonably well with the values discussed above.

Peter

Peter,

Lol, hate to had to send you back to the kitchen to do more testing, but I am glad you did.

That formulation you settle upon is interesting.  I would not have thought about upping the IDY amount because of the low hydration value, but it makes sense to me since you posted why.  Good to hear that the value for the IDY you picked was almost exactly right.  I had thought if a low hydration value was used there would have to be more oil in the formulation.  Good to hear you also added sugar to see if your hydration bake test would develop noticeable crust coloration.  I recall that the samples of the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough that I used for my hydration bake tests didn't develop much of any coloration during the course of the bake.  The 1% salt value was also a good idea.

I can understand trying to mix that formulation would have taken some thought and work. 

I did take note of the absence of sugar in the dough formulation and the slightly increased amount of yeast. 

That is a nice detailed report about what you did and why.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 01:08:38 PM
I am not sure when looking at this photo from this article http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/famed_delorenzos_hudson_street.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/famed_delorenzos_hudson_street.html)   but it appears to me that those might be stacked pizza skins at the left middle of the photo.  If there are pizza skins, I wonder how long they would hold up and not dry out if not used to make pizzas right away. 

I think in this video if it is watched full screen and stopped it can be seen what a slice of De Lorenzo's/Hudson look like top and bottom crust and TF.  Also the partially baked pizza can be seen getting oiled.  The dough also can be seen.  The part about De Lorenzo/Sloan doesn start until about 4:55 mintues into the video.  At about 5:25 minutes into the video the slice can be seen close up.

http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2010/01/pizza_patrol_names_best_pizza.html (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/dining/index.ssf/2010/01/pizza_patrol_names_best_pizza.html) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 01:33:18 PM
Bob,

Yes, the above blend should work--at least better than the last dough from the standpoint of making the dough--and is intended to be for a 24-hour cold ferment. I selected the yeast quantity based on the hydration of the dough, hoping that it would achieve a doubling or thereabouts after 24 hours of cold fermentation.

If you have an array of flours on hand, there may be a blend that can be created that is better than the one given above with the VWG. If you tell me what flours and brands you have on hand, I may be able to create a better blend for you. If you decide to go with the Gold Medal all-purpose flour and you tell me the brand of VWG you have, I can help you with the quantities of each to use.

I can't tell you how well the formulation will work since we know little about the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough beyond the type and brand of flour used. The formulation is built strictly around Norma's data from the tests she conducted with the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball she purchased.

Peter
That's fine; I understand these early trials are experimental and that is why I want to give it a shot.
My VWG is the Arrowhead Mills product. Imagine I should be able to get some Gen Mills AP, no?...if you all are using that due to knowing it is the correct Delorenzo's flour I'd like to stick to what might be helpful for what you and Norma are doing.
If I can't get Gen Mills AP I'll let you know for a ratio of the Gold Medal and Arrowroot product.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 01:39:10 PM
OK, I'm confused now....I just Google imaged General Mills AP flour so I could go se if I can locate some....I'm seeing bags of Gold Medal made by General Mills. Is the Gen mills Norma is using the food service one that is in this bag....


if this is one in the same and you guys think it's not working then just tell me a brand of AP you'd like to see tried. I understand that ya'll are trying to come up with a dough that uses VWG so that the dough is more accessible to most folks, correct?
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 01:51:06 PM
Bob,

General Mills sells all-purpose flour at the foodservice level but the GM all-purpose flour I have been using was purchased from a local supermarket. I used it because it was the only flour I had on hand to conduct my tests. The flour that Norma is using is the same one the De Lorenzos are using and is shown in the last photo of Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619).

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 01:54:14 PM
Bob,

General Mills sells all-purpose flour at the foodservice level but the GM all-purpose flour I have been using was purchased from a local supermarket. I used it because it was the only flour I had on hand to conduct my tests. The flour that Norma is using is the same one the De Lorenzos are using and is shown in the last photo of Reply 362 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275619.html#msg275619).

Peter
OK....how different is All Trumps B&B; I have that.

Never mind..I'm going to try it..I know it is probably a real close flour traditional to NY area type pie making.
I'm mostly intrigued by ya'll's low hydration on this deal.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 02:03:15 PM
Bob,

The All Trumps has a protein content of 14.2%. If you have a softer flour on hand, it might be combinable with the AT flour to produce a blend with a protein content of 12.9%.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 02:06:53 PM

I'm mostly intrigued by ya'll's low hydration on this deal.


Bob,

Welcome to the world of trying to make a De Lorenzo pizza.   ;D

Best of luck!

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 02:17:34 PM
Bob,

The All Trumps has a protein content of 14.2%. If you have a softer flour on hand, it might be combinable with the AT flour to produce a blend with a protein content of 12.9%.

Peter
Thanks Peter...I comprendo; 12.9% is the go to target. I think maybe I have learned enough from you and the little lady to be able to come up with a blend that will be in compliance.  :)

Norma,
Thanks for the welcome!  :chef:
Schooch over an let 'ol Bob give this a try too...I promise I'll try to not mess up too bad!  ;D
Can I borrow your deck oven for a week or 2?  :-D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 04:22:27 PM

Norma,
Thanks for the welcome!  :chef:
Schooch over an let 'ol Bob give this a try too...I promise I'll try to not mess up too bad!  ;D
Can I borrow your deck oven for a week or 2?  :-D


Bob,

I haven't got it right either.  You can use my deck oven anytime you want, but my deck oven doesn't bake like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
I was watching the videos again on YouTube of De Lorenzo/Hudson to see if I could pick anything up that I might have missed.

In the first video the dough does look somewhat dry to me and it can be seen how much cheese is added near the end of the bake.  The rim crust also appears larger in some of the pizzas. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9W1B75iOAg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9W1B75iOAg) 

In the second video the yellow container on the floor beside the oven (that I guess holds the oil is seen in part of that video).  It also looks like maybe there can be seen that dough balls are already in skins on the stainless steel counter above where they a dressing the pizzas.  I am not too sure if they are skins or not though. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6csqXXq1c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JK6csqXXq1c) 

The bright yellow stuff in the dough box can be seen in this video too and how rough those dough balls look to me.  A dough ball can also be seen that is fermented in this video and the dough ball doesn't look very fermented when the flour is applied on the bench. 

I am going to see if I can make some of that bright yellow stuff when I pick up the semolina and cornmeal at market.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrz-mLRYYdk) 

In this pdf I think it confirms it again that the pizzas at De Lorenzo/Robbinville are baked at 550 degrees F for 10 minutes.

http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf (http://www.delorenzostomatopies.com/DTP-MidNJMag-June-2013.pdf) 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 04, 2013, 04:36:58 PM
Bob,

I haven't got it right either.  You can use my deck oven anytime you want, but my deck oven doesn't bake like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.   :-D

Norma
Oh Lord please help us all...we do try though, right Norma!  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 05:04:56 PM
Oh Lord please help us all...we do try though, right Norma!  :chef:

Bob,

You are right that we do try, but every oven bakes differently.  My BS bakes the same dough I use for market differently than my deck oven does.  I am going to turn the heat up more on the BS this weekend if I find time and see if that helps to get a crisper bottom.  It is hard to figure anything out when it has to do with ovens and how they bake.  Maybe we could borrow Walter's oven.   :angel:  :-D

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 04, 2013, 05:22:19 PM
Some thoughts on this thread..and some info. DeLorenzo's is an artisanal operation. At Hudson, they had no bathroom, and they squeezed the Red Pack plum tomatoes by hand (I saw the guy doing it once or twice; one of the articles from the Newark paper said it's plum.). They had no capacity in their tiny kitchen for a machine to ball the dough. The video from the Newark Star Ledger shows both the irregular balls and the yellow stuff they thrown down to keep the dough balls from sticking(I think it's semolina, but it might be corn meal; no oiling the dough trays.) Makes it easier to lift them out and pound them thin.

Like in any artisanal operation, there's a lot of human and other variation. The pies don't come out uniformly. (I was at Modern Apizza in New Haven yesterday; my #2 pizza place; same thing, though more uniformity maybe.) So...I don't try to copy them, just emulate them..pay hommage to them when I make pies myself in my two decker oven in my garage.

Yes, as I said earlier, Sorrento cheese; part skim. The oil , I learned when I was beginning to try to understand how people make pies/dough from scratch: a 80-20 mix: 20 olive oil; 80% soy. They put it on most pies, as needed, mid-way into the bake, around the edges to create the char (and Peter's discussion of residual sugars says why there's no rule on that, either). No oil after the bake. Oil in the dough mix. Have no idea when they add it, but it is in the mix, not added after. (And, they've said "surprisingly little".)

I am resigned to emulating them...homage. Not copying them. They're artisans.  I've liked what I've made and how my pies have evolved. But....the only sure way to experience their magic is there. Fun stuff.

I'll post some photos some time.. I think I only took pix when I bought a steel baking stone last winter. (Didn't think it improved over the Fibrament ones I have/had; too much heat on the bottom, not enough for the top. In my oven, anyway.)
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2013, 05:56:52 PM
Norma,

Do you think what looked to you to be stacked skins might be a stack of cloth towels?

Also, in the second video, you will note that the oil in the squeeze bottles near the back wall is of two different colors--light and dark. I see that Stuart confirmed what I found when I searched for olive oil and canola/soybean oil blends and discovered that the 80% part was the canola or soybean oil part of the blend and the olive oil was the 20% part.

To my eye, the skins in the videos look to have a fairly high hydration. If, as was reported, there is little oil in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville doughs, how are you going to make dough balls that can be opened to form skins that are extensible without adequate hydration?  With very little oil, what hydration value will you use?

Also, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville bake time, at 10 minutes, is 20% longer than the De Lorenzo/Sloan 8 minute bake time. If the hydration bake test results that got were correct and there is only about 39% water in the dough to begin with, adding two minutes more to the De Lorenzo/Sloan bake time would quite likely make the De Lorenzo/Sloan crust stiffer and drier. About the only thing that would save the De Lorenzo crust from becoming a cracker is the fact that is is thicker than the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust, by about 11% by my calculation (if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is using a thickness factor of about 0.065). I believe that all of these differences support a higher hydration value for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.

It is only through testing different hydration values in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that you are likely to find the answers. In my opinion, photos and videos won't do that.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 06:08:06 PM
Some thoughts on this thread..and some info. DeLorenzo's is an artisanal operation. At Hudson, they had no bathroom, and they squeezed the Red Pack plum tomatoes by hand (I saw the guy doing it once or twice; one of the articles from the Newark paper said it's plum.). They had no capacity in their tiny kitchen for a machine to ball the dough. The video from the Newark Star Ledger shows both the irregular balls and the yellow stuff they thrown down to keep the dough balls from sticking(I think it's semolina, but it might be corn meal; no oiling the dough trays.) Makes it easier to lift them out and pound them thin.


Stuart,

I can understand De Lorenzo's is an artisanal operation.  I read where they squeezed the Red Pack Plum tomatoes by hand.  Thanks for posting that again.  Thanks also for telling us the cornmeal or semolina isn't oiled and it is just used so the dough balls don't stick to the dough boxes.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 04, 2013, 06:15:33 PM
You never know when trivia solves a problem, so I add it....FWIW, Norma.

But...I am skeptical about replicating the artwork, even if we know the paints/brushes/type of canvas, etc.

And, I admire your desire to know and persistence, even if I think that extrapolating anything much from the "Sloan" dough to the Robbinsville dough/pies....is a huge stretch...to coin a pun.  ;D  That's part of my skepticism here...and I think a bit of a diversion.

But....I am interested in your quest.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 06:20:03 PM
Norma,

Do you think what looked to you to be stacked skins might be a stack of cloth towels?

Also, in the second video, you will note that the oil in the squeeze bottles near the back wall is of two different colors--light and dark. I see that Stuart confirmed what I found when I searched for olive oil and canola/soybean oil blends and discovered that the 80% part was the canola or soybean oil part of the blend and the olive oil was the 20% part.

To my eye, the skins in the videos look to have a fairly high hydration. If, as was reported, there is little oil in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville doughs, how are you going to make dough balls that can be opened to form skins that are extensible without adequate hydration?  With very little oil, what hydration value will you use?

Also, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville bake time, at 10 minutes, is 20% longer than the De Lorenzo/Sloan 8 minute bake time. If the hydration bake test results that got were correct and there is only about 39% water in the dough to begin with, adding two minutes more to the De Lorenzo/Sloan bake time would quite likely make the De Lorenzo/Sloan crust stiffer and drier. About the only thing that would save the De Lorenzo crust from becoming a cracker is the fact that is is thicker than the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville crust, by about 11%. I believe that all of these differences support a higher hydration value for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough.

It is only through testing different hydration values in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that you are likely to find the answers. In my opinion, photos and videos won't do that.

Peter

Peter,

You may be right that what I thought might be stacked skins might be a stack of cloth towels.

I am mixed up on what I saw on the second video, but thought I saw a yellow container with a green lid on the floor on the left side of the oven.  Good to hear Stuart confirmed what you found when you searched for olive oil and canola/soybean oil blends.

Your eyes are better than mine in determining what kind of hydration the skins have in the videos.  I understand where you are coming from though if there is little oil in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville doughs you really could not make dough balled that can be opened into skins that are extensible without adequate hydration.  I have no idea what hydration I would use. 

I also didn't think about the bake time being 20% longer than at the De Lorenzo/Sloan 8 minute bake times.  I can understand why you believe everything points to a higher hydration value. 

I will stop posting the photos and videos and get back to business.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 06:29:46 PM
You never know when trivia solves a problem, so I add it....FWIW, Norma.

But...I am skeptical about replicating the artwork, even if we know the paints/brushes/type of canvas, etc.

And, I admire your desire to know and persistence, even if I think that extrapolating anything much from the "Sloan" dough to the Robbinsville dough/pies....is a huge stretch...to coin a pun.  ;D  That's part of my skepticism here...and I think a bit of a diversion.

But....I am interested in your quest.

Stuart,

Thanks for posting everything you did.  I appreciate that and am sure other members do too.

I don't think we ever will be able to exactly replicate a De Lorezno/Robbinville/Sloan pizza, but I would like to be able to make a version that is close. 

I just wanted to compare the De Lorenzo/Robbinville pizza with the De Lorenzo/Sloan pizza.  Since I could purchase dough balls at Sloan I wanted to see what kind of pizza they would produce.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2013, 09:58:45 PM
When mixing one batch of dough on Monday I mixed in 1 defrosted regular boardwalk dough ball and 2 defrosted Detroit style dough balls for the boardwalk style of pizzas.  I don't know why but the bottom and tops browned better.  I know I never will be able to repeat what I did unless I have leftover frozen dough balls.  The dough was really nice too and opened easily.

I did up the hydration a little this week in all my dough batches for the boardwalk style of pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2013, 11:38:41 AM
The oil , I learned when I was beginning to try to understand how people make pies/dough from scratch: a 80-20 mix: 20 olive oil; 80% soy. They put it on most pies, as needed, mid-way into the bake, around the edges to create the char (and Peter's discussion of residual sugars says why there's no rule on that, either). No oil after the bake. Oil in the dough mix. Have no idea when they add it, but it is in the mix, not added after. (And, they've said "surprisingly little".)
Stuart,

A fair amount has been written on adding the oil blend mid-bake (and cheese and sauce as well) but it also appears from what I have read and seen that the oil blend can be added to the pizza before baking and possibly after baking. For examples see the following:

Before: http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/patrons_lament_the_coming_loss.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/patrons_lament_the_coming_loss.html) (Gary at Trenton, 4th photo) and Reply 323 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275390.html#msg275390 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275390.html#msg275390) (Sam at Robbinsville, 6th photo)

After?: Norma’s video at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403) (starting at about 1:40; note how the pizza looks fully baked and there was no indication that the pizza went back into the oven), and the last photo at Reply 323 referenced above.

For an 80/20 soybean/olive oil blend, I wouldn't think that one would want to add the oil blend after baking but rather let the flavors meld with other oils and juices on the pizzas during the bake.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: waltertore on September 05, 2013, 11:52:24 AM
Norma:  You inspired me with your thread here-thanks!   We baked a few tomato style pies today- cheese and pepperoni.  I took some pictures and will post them later today if they came out ok.  The floresent lights and stainless steel tables make the pies look washed out most of the time.  Walter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2013, 12:02:48 PM
I will stop posting the photos and videos and get back to business.
Norma,

Like you, I enjoy the forensics aspect of reverse engineering someone else's pizza. It's in my blood. For example, this morning I found a photo at http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/trentons_delorenzos_on_hudson.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/trentons_delorenzos_on_hudson.html) that shows how the sticks of pepperoni were cut into slices at the former de lorenzo/Hudson location.

With the collective help of the members who have posted on this thread and at the Trenton thread, I think we have all that we need in order to proceed. I think we have a pretty solid grip on the ingredients used including, in most cases, the brands used. There appear to be some variances in methodology used by the various De Lorenzo workers and some experimentation may be needed to figure out how much cheese and sauce to use, but those are not insoluble problems. When you are ready to proceed again, please let me know. If you don't want to repeat the last experiment with the 59% hydration but under more normal conditions, let me know and also if you want to use some sugar in your dough for a one-day cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 01:18:59 PM
Norma:  You inspired me with your thread here-thanks!   We baked a few tomato style pies today- cheese and pepperoni.  I took some pictures and will post them later today if they came out ok.  The floresent lights and stainless steel tables make the pies look washed out most of the time.  Walter

Walter,

Great to hear you and your students baked some tomato style pies today.  ;D  What did you think of the tomato pies?  I know how photos don't turn out right sometimes in florescent lighting.  Usually my photos of my pizzas really don't look like what they really look like in person.  Hope you can post some of the photos.

Norma.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 01:36:36 PM
Norma,

Like you, I enjoy the forensics aspect of reverse engineering someone else's pizza. It's in my blood. For example, this morning I found a photo at http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/trentons_delorenzos_on_hudson.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2012/01/trentons_delorenzos_on_hudson.html) that shows how the sticks of pepperoni were cut into slices at the former de lorenzo/Hudson location.

With the collective help of the members who have posted on this thread and at the Trenton thread, I think we have all that we need in order to proceed. I think we have a pretty solid grip on the ingredients used including, in most cases, the brands used. There appear to be some variances in methodology used by the various De Lorenzo workers and some experimentation may be needed to figure out how much cheese and sauce to use, but those are not insoluble problems. When you are ready to proceed again, please let me know. If you don't want to repeat the last experiment with the 59% hydration but under more normal conditions, let me know and also if you want to use some sugar in your dough for a one-day cold fermentation.

Peter

Peter,

I know you enjoy the forensics aspect of reverse engineering someone else's pizza.  I had to chuckle about it being in your blood though.  I guess I am getting that part into my blood too from the times I worked on trying to reverse engineer pizza with you.  You seem to have a knack for finding things no one else can find.

That photo was interesting to me on how they cut their pepperoni at De Lorenzo/Sloan.  I wonder if someone still hand slices their pepperoni.  That could become a time consuming job.  If I recall right I read somewhere on the web that De Lorenzo's get their sausage from Chicago. 

That is great if you think from the collective help of the members who have posted on this thread and the Trenton thread that you think there is enough of information to proceed.  I might be able to go to Trenton, NJ before winter to try and purchase a just baked pizza to weigh if that would be of any help for the ingredients as dressings.

If am not sure what you mean?  Are you setting forth a whole new formulation to try if I don't want to repeat the last experiment I did that had problems with different things.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2013, 02:00:55 PM
If am not sure what you mean?  Are you setting forth a whole new formulation to try if I don't want to repeat the last experiment I did that had problems with different things.
Norma,

My thinking was that you might want to have me modify the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation to reduce the hydration value based on the results you achieved with the two attempts you made with the hydration value at 59%. But I wasn't quite sure since the last test was beset with interruptions and delays that clouded the results. So, it wasn't clear to me whether the clone dough formulation really needed to be changed. As for the sugar, it would be easy enough to add 1-2% to the dough, although such a change can await the results of the next test.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 05, 2013, 02:30:22 PM
Stuart,

A fair amount has been written on adding the oil blend mid-bake (and cheese and sauce as well) but it also appears from what I have read and seen that the oil blend can be added to the pizza before baking and possibly after baking. For examples see the following:

Before: http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/patrons_lament_the_coming_loss.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/12/patrons_lament_the_coming_loss.html) (Gary at Trenton, 4th photo) and Reply 323 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275390.html#msg275390 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275390.html#msg275390) (Sam at Robbinsville, 6th photo)

After?: Norma’s video at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403) (starting at about 1:40; note how the pizza looks fully baked and there was no indication that the pizza went back into the oven), and the last photo at Reply 323 referenced above.

For an 80/20 soybean/olive oil blend, I wouldn't think that one would want to add the oil blend after baking but rather let the flavors meld with other oils and juices on the pizzas during the bake.

Peter

Peter...I looked at that video again. Clearly, they are stacking opened skins with bench flour as lubricant. I do think that they oil the almost-finished pies to have a consistent char along the edge....before they put it back for the final stage. The video might be a fully baked pie, though they are oiling the edges in it. (And, they seem to add oil before the bake to pies like broccoli/spinach that start with veggies that need cooking.)

My kids loved the pepperoni at Hudson as it was irregularly cut and thicker (and smaller) than most uniform super-thin sliced pepperoni.

I think Sam, at Robbinsville, has mechanized and made more uniform (ie, with machines) for several reasons: they now have the kitchen space, the volume that requires it (Hudson was pretty small); more and more people are involved who aren't experts like the Amico family. It's more like two assembly lines now.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 06:58:34 PM
Norma,

My thinking was that you might want to have me modify the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation to reduce the hydration value based on the results you achieved with the two attempts you made with the hydration value at 59%. But I wasn't quite sure since the last test was beset with interruptions and delays that clouded the results. So, it wasn't clear to me whether the clone dough formulation really needed to be changed. As for the sugar, it would be easy enough to add 1-2% to the dough, although such a change can await the results of the next test.

Peter

Peter,

I would like you to modify the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough formulation to reduce the hydration based on the results I had with the two attempts at the hydration bake test.  If is up to you though if you think I should repeat the same formulation I tried this week.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 07:12:29 PM
Peter,

Where you thinking somewhat along the lines of a modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville formulation like you posted at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411) but not using the CY, a lower value of salt and a lower TF for the another attempt?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2013, 07:57:51 PM
Where you thinking somewhat along the lines of a modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville formulation like you posted at Reply 42 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25251.msg255411.html#msg255411) but not using the CY, a lower value of salt and a lower TF for the another attempt?
Norma,

What I am thinking of is a few simple changes to the first De Lorenzo clone dough formulation that I set forth at Reply 462 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671) . Those changes would include a lower hydration value, an adjusted amount of IDY to compensate for the lowered hydration value, and a reversal of the 80/20 ratio of the two oils used in the oil blend.

Out of curiosity, I calculated the water content of the dough made in accordance with the dough formulation you cited and it was between about 39% and 41.6% depending on the value I used for the moisture content of the flour (from 11% to 14%). Those values are consistent with the numbers that I came up with for the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough based on your hydration bake test results. I won't be able to calculate the corresponding numbers for the modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation with the changes mentioned above until I actually put pencil to paper.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 09:27:45 PM
Norma,

What I am thinking of is a few simple changes to the first De Lorenzo clone dough formulation that I set forth at Reply 462 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671) . Those changes would include a lower hydration value, an adjusted amount of IDY to compensate for the lowered hydration value, and a reversal of the 80/20 ratio of the two oils used in the oil blend.

Out of curiosity, I calculated the water content of the dough made in accordance with the dough formulation you cited and it was between about 39% and 41.6% depending on the value I used for the moisture content of the flour (from 11% to 14%). Those values are consistent with the numbers that I came up with for the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough based on your hydration bake test results. I won't be able to calculate the corresponding numbers for the modified De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation with the changes mentioned above until I actually put pencil to paper.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you are thinking a few simple changes to the De Lorenzo clone formulation that you gave me before and what they might be. 

That slice of pizza I had at Risoldi's Market & Cafe reminded me of a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza in a way, but it was too thick and not crispy or crunchy enough.  The bottom crust when I had that slice was almost evenly browned too.  If you enlarge this photo of Sabatino's Pizza at Risoldi's Market you can see the rim edges look somewhat like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza with the char on the edges of some of the pizzas.  In my opinion the cheese pizza looks almost like a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza.  Do you think the cheese pizza looks something like a De Lorenzo/Robbinville pizza?  I know photos can be somewhat deceiving though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 05, 2013, 09:52:49 PM
Norma,

Yes, the cheese pizza does resemble a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cheese pizza. But with a thickness factor of almost 0.09, the crust is materially thicker than even the De Lorenzo/Sloan crust. With an "effective" hydration of around 54% (water and oil combined), I am not sure that the Risoldi pizza could sustain a 10 minute bake and be edible. And that may be the same reason that De Lorenzo/Sloan uses an 8 minute bake. We can't lose sight of the fact that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas bake for 10 minutes, or thereabouts. Whatever hydration value De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses, it has to be compatible with that bake time. And, since we are using only a small amount of oil, just about all of the heavy lifting has to be done with the hydration. At this point, that is the key variable that should be tested. There has to be a reason why the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are so highly acclaimed. I don't think it is because it is trying to emulate De Lorenzo/Sloan or Risoldi, or any of the others.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2013, 10:12:08 PM
Norma,

Yes, the cheese pizza does resemble a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville cheese pizza. But with a thickness factor of almost 0.09, the crust is materially thicker than even the De Lorenzo/Sloan crust. With an "effective" hydration of around 54% (water and oil combined), I am not sure that the Risoldi pizza could sustain a 10 minute bake and be edible. And that may be the same reason that De Lorenzo/Sloan uses an 8 minute bake. We can't lose sight of the fact that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas bake for 10 minutes, or thereabouts. Whatever hydration value De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses, it has to be compatible with that bake time. And, since we are using only a small amount of oil, just about all of the heavy lifting has to be done with the hydration. At this point, that is the key variable that should be tested. There has to be a reason why the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are so highly acclaimed. I don't think it is because it is trying to emulate De Lorenzo/Sloan or Risoldi, or any of the others.

Peter

Peter,

I agree with you there has to be a reason that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are so highly acclaimed.  I don't think they are trying to emulate any other pizza either.  You are probably right that with an effective hydration of around 54% the Risoldi pizza probably would not sustain a 10 minute bake time and be edible.  Makes sense that is why De Lorenzo/Sloan uses a shorter bake time too.  I understand better now that whatever hydration value De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses it has to be compatible with that bake time.  Sometimes I have a hard time understanding how everything has to work together to make the special kind of pizza De Lorenzo/Robbinsville produces.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 09:49:11 AM
I did receive this email from Keith Werkheiser three days ago.

Good Evening Norma,
 I hope all is well and your Labor Day Holiday was Enjoyable. I know the weather hasn’t been so nice but we had some nice weekends this summer.
 I have met you before and have sampled Armour Echrich Margarita Peperoni. I represent Lactalis Cheese Company as a Broker and was informed to reach out to you in reference to your interest in Sorrento LM PS Mozzarella. I see you work with a Distributor now - Hometown Provisions. You hadn’t had a distributor 7 months ago. Good for you. I was in to see Paul at Hometown on Friday and made them aware of your need to sample the Sorrento LM PS Mozzarella. I would order a case from Hometown. We guarantee our product 100% and for any reason you do not like the product we will refund you cost on the case.
 I hope you enjoy the Cheese and I wish you nothing but success.
 Have a Great September.
 Sincerely,
 Keith

I sent this email back to Keith today.
Hello Keith,

I recall you helping me get a sample of the Armour Echrich Margarita Pepperoni.  Thanks for telling me you also represent Lactalis Cheese Company as a Broker.  I did have Home Town Provisions, Inc. as a broker for over the last 4 years.  I don't know what that mix-up was.  I called Hometown Provisions Inc. and looked at their products list and they don't carry the shredded low moisture-part skim shredded.  They only carry the whole milk shredded Sorrento brand and that would have to be a special order.   I really don't want to special order a whole case when it is whole milk shredded in case it would not work well in the pizza I am trying to develop.  Do you know what other part-skim low moisture mozzarella Hometown Provisions carries that might compare to the Sorrento product?  This is their product list with the shredded mozzarellas on page 13.  I only see Bella Fran as the one they carry in LMPS shredded. http://hometownprovisions.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2013-Product-Catalog.pdf (http://hometownprovisions.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/2013-Product-Catalog.pdf) 

Thanks and regards,

Norma/Norma's Pizza

I have no idea how the Bella Fran LMPS shredded mozzarella would work instead of the Sorrento LMPS shredded mozzarella, but I could just purchase one bag instead of a whole case if it might be okay to try.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2013, 12:03:32 PM
I agree with you there has to be a reason that De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are so highly acclaimed.  I don't think they are trying to emulate any other pizza either.  You are probably right that with an effective hydration of around 54% the Risoldi pizza probably would not sustain a 10 minute bake time and be edible.  Makes sense that is why De Lorenzo/Sloan uses a shorter bake time too.  I understand better now that whatever hydration value De Lorenzo/Robbinsville uses it has to be compatible with that bake time.  Sometimes I have a hard time understanding how everything has to work together to make the special kind of pizza De Lorenzo/Robbinsville produces.
Norma,

Several years ago, before you became a member of the forum, I actually went down the low hydration road in some of the De Lorenzo/Hudson clone pizzas I made. The hydration was as low as 48% in one case, and 50% in a couple more cases. In all of these cases, I used a fair amount of oil blend (5%) although in one instance I did not use any oil at all, and in another I used a small amount (1.5%). The thickness factors varied from about 0.05 to 0.065. In all cases, I used sugar in the dough. In retrospect, I think that the sugar, when coupled with the low thickness factor values,  may have impeded my efforts to achieve a bake time of around ten minutes in my home oven without lowering the normal bake temperature of around 500-550 degrees F. In general, I found that the lower hydration values resulted in skins that were overly elastic. And the doughs took a lot of effort to make in a home setting.

The above experiments eventually led me to use higher hydration values, although I did retain the sugar in the dough on the assumption that De Lorenzo/Hudson used sugar in its dough. For background purposes, you may want to read the posts at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060) and Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125). Those posts taught me that just because you have a thin crust, that is no guarantee that it will be crispy across the entire pizza. Part of the reason is that high levels of oil are likely to cause the dough to retain more of its moisture during the bake, and the sugar might lead to premature browning before the crust can bake long enough to become uniformly crispy. I also learned that a lot of toppings or an excess of sauce or cheese could adversely affect the crispiness of the finished crust.

What I learned from rereading the Trenton thread to restart my cloning efforts in this thread, including the above posts, I supplemented with the newer and better information that has come out of this thread. It was the collective knowledge that led me to the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that I proposed to you recently. Two of the major lessons learned from this thread was not to use any sugar in the dough and to use small amounts of oil. The former requirement forces you to bake the pizza longer to get the desired crust coloration (along with adequate levels of residual sugar), and the latter requirement forces you to use a higher hydration value in order to come up with a dough that can easily be made and handled. The higher hydration also allows you to bake the pizza longer so that the crust develops the right color and the crust becomes more crispy. You will also note that I preferred a high gluten flour for the clones. At the time, I did not know what kind of flour De Lorenzo/Hudson was specifically using.

I hope to have a revised De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you over the weekend.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 06, 2013, 04:44:47 PM
I hope to have a revised De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you over the weekend.

Me too, please.  ;D
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 05:59:50 PM
Norma,

Several years ago, before you became a member of the forum, I actually went down the low hydration road in some of the De Lorenzo/Hudson clone pizzas I made. The hydration was as low as 48% in one case, and 50% in a couple more cases. In all of these cases, I used a fair amount of oil blend (5%) although in one instance I did not use any oil at all, and in another I used a small amount (1.5%). The thickness factors varied from about 0.05 to 0.065. In all cases, I used sugar in the dough. In retrospect, I think that the sugar, when coupled with the low thickness factor values,  may have impeded my efforts to achieve a bake time of around ten minutes in my home oven without lowering the normal bake temperature of around 500-550 degrees F. In general, I found that the lower hydration values resulted in skins that were overly elastic. And the doughs took a lot of effort to make in a home setting.

The above experiments eventually led me to use higher hydration values, although I did retain the sugar in the dough on the assumption that De Lorenzo/Hudson used sugar in its dough. For background purposes, you may want to read the posts at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060) and Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125). Those posts taught me that just because you have a thin crust, that is no guarantee that it will be crispy across the entire pizza. Part of the reason is that high levels of oil are likely to cause the dough to retain more of its moisture during the bake, and the sugar might lead to premature browning before the crust can bake long enough to become uniformly crispy. I also learned that a lot of toppings or an excess of sauce or cheese could adversely affect the crispiness of the finished crust.

What I learned from rereading the Trenton thread to restart my cloning efforts in this thread, including the above posts, I supplemented with the newer and better information that has come out of this thread. It was the collective knowledge that led me to the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation that I proposed to you recently. Two of the major lessons learned from this thread was not to use any sugar in the dough and to use small amounts of oil. The former requirement forces you to bake the pizza longer to get the desired crust coloration (along with adequate levels of residual sugar), and the latter requirement forces you to use a higher hydration value in order to come up with a dough that can easily be made and handled. The higher hydration also allows you to bake the pizza longer so that the crust develops the right color and the crust becomes more crispy. You will also note that I preferred a high gluten flour for the clones. At the time, I did not know what kind of flour De Lorenzo/Hudson was specifically using.

I hope to have a revised De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation for you over the weekend.

Peter

Peter,

I think that is interesting that you think the sugar along with the low thickness factor impeded your efforts to achieve bake times of around ten minutes in your home oven without lowering the normal bake temperature of around 500-550 degrees F.  I really don't understand why a lower hydration skin would be overly elastic.  Was that because the amount of oil in the formulation first formulation, or do you think it was from the high gluten flour?

I can see after reading those two links to your posts you did learn that there is no guaranteed that the pizza will be crispy across the entire pizza.   I wonder why your second pizza wasn't crispy across the whole crust when you used a much lower amount of oil.  I understand the sugar might lead to premature browning before the crust can bake long enough to be uniformly crispy.  I also can understand that a lot of toppings or an excess of sauce or cheese could adversely affect the crispiness of the finished pizza.  I wonder why you didn't try the last formulation without sugar to see what would happen and less toppings.  I did note that you preferred the high gluten flour for the clones.

If you don't have time to do a revised De Lorenzo/Robbinville clone dough formulation over the weekend I can try the same one I did this week.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 06:00:53 PM
Me too, please.  ;D

Craig,

Come on in, the water's fine!   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2013, 08:02:59 PM
I think that is interesting that you think the sugar along with the low thickness factor impeded your efforts to achieve bake times of around ten minutes in your home oven without lowering the normal bake temperature of around 500-550 degrees F.  I really don't understand why a lower hydration skin would be overly elastic.  Was that because the amount of oil in the formulation first formulation, or do you think it was from the high gluten flour?

I can see after reading those two links to your posts you did learn that there is no guaranteed that the pizza will be crispy across the entire pizza.   I wonder why your second pizza wasn't crispy across the whole crust when you used a much lower amount of oil.  I understand the sugar might lead to premature browning before the crust can bake long enough to be uniformly crispy.  I also can understand that a lot of toppings or an excess of sauce or cheese could adversely affect the crispiness of the finished pizza.  I wonder why you didn't try the last formulation without sugar to see what would happen and less toppings.  I did note that you preferred the high gluten flour for the clones.

If you don't have time to do a revised De Lorenzo/Robbinville clone dough formulation over the weekend I can try the same one I did this week.
Norma,

In the context of the type of dough we have been discussing in this thread, elasticity, and also extensibility, are a function of several factors: the flour used, the hydration of the flour, whether oil is used in the dough, and the extent of fermentation. Although not always reported, each flour has a rated absorption value. When you use a hydration value that is above the rated absorption value, the dough will become more extensible; when you use a hydration value that is below the rated absorption value, it will become more elastic. All else being equal, a high protein, high gluten flour will produce a more elastic dough than a lower protein flour. It is all about the formation of glutenin and gliadin, as is discussed at http://www.bakeinfo.co.nz/Facts/Gluten (http://www.bakeinfo.co.nz/Facts/Gluten). Which factors will exist in any given case, and their intensity, will be a function of the dough formulation used, the quantities of the ingredients used, and the fermentation protocol.

With respect to the oil, the addition of oil to a dough will increase its extensibility. This happens because the oil coats the gluten strands so that they slide past each other more easily and smoothly.

As a dough ages during fermentation, and given enough time, it will become more extensible because the proteolytic enzymes and acids formed in the dough attack and degrade the gluten. So, even with a low hydration dough, given enough time, it can become quite soft and more extensible.

You asked why I didn't omit the sugar or reduce the number of toppings I used for the pizza described at Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125). It never occurred to me to omit the sugar. I added the sugar at the outset after a member spoke of a certain "sweetness" in the De Lorenzo/Hudson crust. It was only at the end of the thread as it was going into remission that I learned from another member that the De Lorenzo dough did not use any sugar. Also, we had run out of information to continue the cloning effort. Remember, through the entire Trenton thread, I never even knew the two sizes of the pizzas made by De Lorenzo/Hudson or De Lorenzo/Robbinsville so that I could adjust the dough formulation to accommodate the two sizes. I also didn't know for sure what type and brand of flour that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville were using. It was this thread, plus the tail end of the Trenton thread, that answered those questions.

I suspect that the last pizza (the one discussed at Reply 122) did not have a uniform crispiness because of the two reasons you mentioned--the use of the sugar and its effect on bake time and final crust coloration, and the excessive toppings. It is also quite possible that my home oven just wasn't up to the task. I might have cured the oven problem, and maybe the other problems as well, had I ever had a De Lorenzo pizza against which to compare my results. Short of that, I never would have known if I succeeded at the task of replicating the De Lorenzo pizza no matter how many more experiments I conducted.

I forgot to ask you earlier but, to be on the safe side, would you like me to add any sugar to the next De Lorenzo dough formulation to compensate for the fact that the dough will cold ferment for only one day rather than the longer fermentation period that has been cited for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough? I plan to increase the amount of IDY to compensate for the fact that the lower hydration dough will ferment more slowly than the last dough you tried.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 09:06:09 PM
Peter,

What do you think jives or doesn't jive with these two posts by Drive-by Critic?

If I understand Drive-by Critic's post right on this forum, she says that De Lorezno/Hudson did toss the dough in the air.  http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/17656-trenton-nj-delorenzos-on-hudson-st-closes/ (http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/17656-trenton-nj-delorenzos-on-hudson-st-closes/)  What Drive-by Critic posts probably is wrong, but that is the first time I read that.

Another post from Drive-by Critic on the same thing about tossing the dough.  http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/6588-central-jersey-nj/?hl=%2Bde+%2Blorenzo%26%2339%3Bs#entry82859 (http://www.donrockwell.com/index.php?/topic/6588-central-jersey-nj/?hl=%2Bde+%2Blorenzo%26%2339%3Bs#entry82859)

Another article on a blog about De Lorenzo's Hamilton vs. Hudson that I didn't see before, and yes I do think the one pizza looks better than the other one. 

http://thisisgonnabegood.blogspot.com/2009/02/delorenzos-tomato-pies-hamilton-vs.html (http://thisisgonnabegood.blogspot.com/2009/02/delorenzos-tomato-pies-hamilton-vs.html)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 06, 2013, 09:34:28 PM
Norma,

Both items by the Drive-by Critic seem plagued by poor writing. I'm not sure if it is poor grammar, poor punctuation or typos. I don't understand the first item, and I am usually poor at trying to reorganize or decipher people's poor writing to make it intelligible.

Since the second item purports to advise someone on places to go for pizza in the Chambersburg area, and since the item mentions that De Lorenzo/Hudson was closed, the part about tossing the dough, etc., might apply to the old De Lorenzo Pizza in Trenton.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 09:51:08 PM
Norma,

Both items by the Drive-by Critic seem plagued by poor writing. I'm not sure if it is poor grammar, poor punctuation or typos. I don't understand the first item, and I am usually poor at trying to reorganize or decipher people's poor writing to make it intelligible.

Since the second item purports to advise someone on places to go for pizza in the Chambersburg area, and since  the item mentions that De Lorenzo/Hudson had closed, the part about tossing the dough, etc., might apply to the old De Lorenzo Pizza in Trenton.

Peter

Peter,

Your are probably right, but it still makes me wonder.  I know I wonder too much and always think what if.  I am also poor in my grammar.   :-D

BTW, I don't know if you read these two articles, but I think the first article is kind of sad.  To live a life consumed by making pizza Eileen and Gary Amico sure went through a lot and then all of a sudden it came to an end, or almost an end.

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/07/i_miss_the_people_not_the_grind_owners_of_now-closed_de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_trenton_talk_about_r.html (http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2013/07/i_miss_the_people_not_the_grind_owners_of_now-closed_de_lorenzos_tomato_pies_in_trenton_talk_about_r.html)

In this article it also says that De Lorenzo's legacy are shrouded in mist.  http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/ (http://www.mercerspace.com/features/well-see-you-in-hamilton/)   I have wondered about that since I got those two business cards from both of De Lorenzo's locations and the one I got at Sloan said they started their business at an earlier date.  I posted both of those business cards I think before, but if I didn't these are the two business cards.

I called Trenton Bill after I read those two posts and he said he had visited De Lorenzo/Hudson for 25 years (but not a lot) and never saw them tossing the dough. 

Norma


Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 06, 2013, 10:49:01 PM
Norma,

In the context of the type of dough we have been discussing in this thread, elasticity, and also extensibility, are a function of several factors: the flour used, the hydration of the flour, whether oil is used in the dough, and the extent of fermentation. Although not always reported, each flour has a rated absorption value. When you use a hydration value that is above the rated absorption value, the dough will become more extensible; when you use a hydration value that is below the rated absorption value, it will become more elastic. All else being equal, a high protein, high gluten flour will produce a more elastic dough than a lower protein flour. It is all about the formation of glutenin and gliadin, as is discussed at http://www.bakeinfo.co.nz/Facts/Gluten (http://www.bakeinfo.co.nz/Facts/Gluten). Which factors will exist in any given case, and their intensity, will be a function of the dough formulation used, the quantities of the ingredients used, and the fermentation protocol.

With respect to the oil, the addition of oil to a dough will increase its extensibility. This happens because the oil coats the gluten strands so that they slide past each other more easily and smoothly.

As a dough ages during fermentation, and given enough time, it will become more extensible because the proteolytic enzymes and acids formed in the dough attack and degrade the gluten. So, even with a low hydration dough, given enough time, it can become quite soft and more extensible.

You asked why I didn't omit the sugar or reduce the number of toppings I used for the pizza described at Reply 122 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45125.html#msg45125). It never occurred to me to omit the sugar. I added the sugar at the outset after a member spoke of a certain "sweetness" in the De Lorenzo/Hudson crust. It was only at the end of the thread as it was going into remission that I learned from another member that the De Lorenzo dough did not use any sugar. Also, we had run out of information to continue the cloning effort. Remember, through the entire Trenton thread, I never even knew the two sizes of the pizzas made by De Lorenzo/Hudson or De Lorenzo/Robbinsville so that I could adjust the dough formulation to accommodate the two sizes. I also didn't know for sure what type and brand of flour that De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville were using. It was this thread, plus the tail end of the Trenton thread, that answered those questions.

I suspect that the last pizza (the one discussed at Reply 122) did not have a uniform crispiness because of the two reasons you mentioned--the use of the sugar and its effect on bake time and final crust coloration, and the excessive toppings. It is also quite possible that my home oven just wasn't up to the task. I might have cured the oven problem, and maybe the other problems as well, had I ever had a De Lorenzo pizza against which to compare my results. Short of that, I never would have known if I succeeded at the task of replicating the De Lorenzo pizza no matter how many more experiments I conducted.

I forgot to ask you earlier but, to be on the safe side, would you like me to add any sugar to the next De Lorenzo dough formulation to compensate for the fact that the dough will cold ferment for only one day rather than the longer fermentation period that has been cited for the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough? I plan to increase the amount of IDY to compensate for the fact that the lower hydration dough will ferment more slowly than the last dough you tried.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining more about the dough we have been discussing on this thread and how those terms elasticity and extensibility are a function of several factors.  I guess I didn't study enough or know enough about when a hydration value that is above the rated absorption value, the dough will become more extensible and if you use a hydration value below the rated absorption value it will become more elastic.  The link you gave did a good job of explaining too. 

I understand a little bit more when it comes to the addition of oil to a dough and how it increases extensibility.

I also understand why you did not omit the sugar now.  I know you didn't know the two pizza sizes made by either De Lorenzo's pizzerias in the Trenton thread. 

Since you never had a De Lorenzo's pizza I know it would be hard for you to tell if you ever succeeded.

You can add sugar to your formulation if you think I need it for a one day cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 07, 2013, 02:49:11 PM
Peter,

Sorry for this basic question...but..what is the difference between "elasticity" and "extensibility" in practical terms in dough-making. What controls what, and what is the desired goal re: both of them. I've never thought of this distinction, and realize that the goal is real a good balance, but....would like to understand better what you're saying.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2013, 04:04:56 PM
Stuart,

Both of the terms "extensibility" and "elasticity" are defined in the forum's Pizza Glossary at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#E (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#E) .

As you might imagine, there are varying degrees of extensibility and elasticity. For skins that are to be produced in volume, as at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, you ideally want a balance between extensibility and elasticity. You don't want the dough to be so extensible that it runs away from you when forming into skins, but you don't want the dough to be so elastic that skins made from the dough have excessive springback and are difficult to form to the desired size or it takes too long to do so.

Comment has been made in the Trenton thread and in this one that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson skins were not tossed or twirled for fear that the workers would put their hands through the skins or otherwise form holes or tears. That can happen when you are working with very thin skins, even good ones, and the risk of these problems increases with the sizes of the skins. But there are skins that have such good balance between extensibility and elasticity that the skins can handle extreme manhandling without mishap. But in an operation as at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, what is the point of doing that? They are there to make pizzas, not entertain customers. Unfortunately, that approach makes it difficult to tell from still photos, and even from videos, what hydration value is used. If you go too high with the hydration, and all else being equal, you can end up with a skin that is too extensible; if the hydration value is too low, the skin can be too elastic. Elastic skins can also develop rips and tears.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 07, 2013, 05:04:30 PM
Thanks, Peter. Balance, like with everything in life, seems to be the key for this thread, too.

And, I've experienced problems with both..in my quest for the perfect dough, though rarely recently with elasticity. Rather, too extensible...at times. Need more elasticity, I think.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
Norma,

I went back to the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403) and viewed it several more times in order to get a better feel for the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench and the final skin is formed. In the video, two dough balls are formed, which I will refer to as DB1 and DB2. Here are the timelines for the two dough balls.

DB1
0:08-0:15: floured partially flattened DB1 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 7 seconds)
0:16: the partially opened DB1 skin is flipped
0:17-0:30: the DB1 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 13 seconds)
0:31: bench flour
0:32-0:36: the DB1 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 4 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 26 seconds

DB2
0:48-0:58: floured partially flattened DB2 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
0:59: the partially opened DB2 skin is flipped
1:00-1:10: the DB2 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
1:11-1:14: the DB2 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 3 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 24 seconds

The above numbers should be your benchmark when you make your next De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone skin :-D. For your convenience, here is the YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CphSlnR8xk&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CphSlnR8xk&feature=player_embedded)

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 07, 2013, 09:14:33 PM
Norma,

I went back to the video you posted at Reply 326 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg275403.html#msg275403) and viewed it several more times in order to get a better feel for the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench and the final skin is formed. In the video, two dough balls are formed, which I will refer to as DB1 and DB2. Here are the timelines for the two dough balls.

DB1
0:08-0:15: floured partially flattened DB1 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 7 seconds)
0:16: the partially opened DB1 skin is flipped
0:17-0:30: the DB1 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 13 seconds)
0:31: bench flour
0:32-0:36: the DB1 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 4 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 26 seconds

DB2
0:48-0:58: floured partially flattened DB2 is opened part way using the fingers (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
0:59: the partially opened DB2 skin is flipped
1:00-1:10: the DB2 skin is opened up more on the bench, using gravity as an assist (elapsed time = 10 seconds)
1:11-1:14: the DB2 skin is opened to its final size using the hands and stretching (elapsed time = 3 seconds)
Total elapsed time (beginning to end) = 24 seconds

The above numbers should be your benchmark when you make your next De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone skin :-D. For your convenience, here is the YouTube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CphSlnR8xk&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CphSlnR8xk&feature=player_embedded)

Peter

Peter,

Lol, I didn't think of timing the total processing time, from the time a floured dough ball hits the bench until the final skin is formed.  I think the assembler next to him stretched the skin a little more as you could see in the one photo I posted.   Thanks for the timing sequences.  I don't think I will be that fast in doing those sequences, but I will try. 

BTW, I saw in this article that Tony Gemignani based his Trenton-style pizza on De Lorenzo/Hudson, but I have not seen any photos of his Trenton-style pizzas.

http://www.passion-4-pizza.com/tony-gemignani.html (http://www.passion-4-pizza.com/tony-gemignani.html)

I think I am going to ask Tony is he knows anything about how to make that kind of dough.  Maybe Tony could give us some insight on what the dough should be like since he knows about so many kinds of pizza doughs.  Another thing I would like to ask Tony if he ever ate pizzas at De Lorenzo/Hudson or touched their dough balls.  At least it can't hurt to ask.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 09:33:02 AM
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, one without sugar and one with sugar. Both are for 14" pizzas. For 16" pizzas, all that would be needed to create a formulation for that size would be to enter a dough ball weight of 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html). The corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. That would be the value to enter into the expanded dough calculating tool for other sizes, although the only two sizes of pies that De Lorenzo/Robinsonville makes are 14" and 16". Both dough formulations set forth below are for a one-day cold fermentation.

In terms of the changes, you will note that I lowered the hydration value to 57%. Along with a total of 1% oil (an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil), the "effective" hydration is 58%. In my home setting, using my KitchenAid stand mixer or my Cuisinart food processor, or even a combination of both, it is hard for me to create a dough ball using a hydration below 57% and with 1% oil that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using its Hobart mixer and, apparently, a divider/rounder. But, apart from that, I would rather err on being on the high side of the hydration value and let the chips fall as they may. What I will be looking for is to see if you are able to make a skin in about 25 seconds. Of course, for that to happen, your dough ball at the time of opening will have to be in the same condition fermentation-wise as shown in the video. Also, the hydration will have to be of the proper value.

For the sugar version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, I used 1.5%. Even that might be a bit too high but we won't know if that is so until you make a crust using the sugar. Hopefully, the sugar won't cause too much bottom crust browning before the crust has had a chance to develop crispiness.

I also increased the amount of yeast, but only a little bit. The amount of IDY has always been somewhat on the high side because members have reported detecting a yeast flavor in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville crusts. As you know, the yeast used by De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville has always been shrouded in some mystery. For example, early on, member MTPIZZA insisted that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using something along the lines of a natural culture. I tested De Lorenzo clone doughs with my Ischia culture, and I also tested old dough methods. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, another member (bfx9) said that he was told by a server at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, who apparently made the dough at that location, that he thought that the yeast was made for them, although he didn't know where they got it from and thought that the yeast was maybe a special order. It occurred to me that maybe the server was thinking of fresh (cake) yeast. To a young, unitiated person, cake yeast might be considered an oddity. It should also be noted that back in the 1930s when the Trentonites started making tomato pies, cake yeast was the only commercial yeast available to bakers. Having watched how non-tech the De Lorenzo/Hudson business was, it would not shock me that they may have used fresh yeast for decades, even after ADY and IDY were invented. If De Lorenzo/Hudson was using fresh yeast at the time they closed, it also wouldn't surprise me if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville did the same. From what I have seen, just about everything that De Lorenzo/Hudson did with respect to its dough and pies carried over to the Robbinsville location. Even Gary and his wife Eileen spend time at the Robbinsville location, albeit only part time. You can see Gary make a cameo YouTube appearance at the Robbinsville location at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE)

With the above as background, here are the modified De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, Without Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (159.92%):
179.94 g  |  6.35 oz | 0.4 lbs
102.56 g  |  3.62 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.7 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.44 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #3, With Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.42%):
178.26 g  |  6.29 oz | 0.39 lbs
101.61 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 14" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter

EDIT (9/8/12): Corrected De Lorenzo pie sizes
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 09:37:56 AM
Norma,

This morning, I found another collection of photos as apparently taken by diners at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville

https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos (https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos)

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 11:11:59 AM
Norma,

As promised, I have set forth below two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation, one without sugar and one with sugar. Both are for 12" pizzas. For 14" pizzas, all that would be needed to create a formulation for that size would be to enter a dough ball weight of 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html). The corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. That would be the value to enter into the expanded dough calculating tool for other sizes, although the only two sizes of pies that De Lorenzo/Robinsonville makes are 12" and 14". Both dough formulations set forth below are for a one-day cold fermentation.

In terms of the changes, you will note that I lowered the hydration value to 57%. Along with a total of 1% oil (an 80/20 blend of soybean oil and olive oil), the "effective" hydration is 58%. In my home setting, using my KitchenAid stand mixer or my Cuisinart food processor, or even a combination of both, it is hard for me to create a dough ball using a hydration below 57% and with 1% oil that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using its Hobart mixer and, apparently, a divider/rounder. But, apart from that, I would rather err on being on the high side of the hydration value and let the chips fall as they may. What I will be looking for is to see if you are able to make a skin in about 25 seconds. Of course, for that to happen, your dough ball at the time of opening will have to be in the same condition fermentation-wise as shown in the video. Also, the hydration will have to be of the proper value.

For the sugar version of the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation, I used 1.5%. Even that might be a bit too high but we won't know if that is so until you make a crust using the sugar. Hopefully, the sugar won't cause too much bottom crust browning before the crust has had a chance to develop crispiness.

I also increased the amount of yeast, but only a little bit. The amount of IDY has always been somewhat on the high side because members have reported detecting a yeast flavor in the De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville crusts. As you know, the yeast used by De Lorenzo/Hudson/Robbinsville has always been shrouded in some mystery. For example, early on, member MTPIZZA insisted that De Lorenzo/Hudson was using something along the lines of a natural culture. I tested De Lorenzo clone doughs with my Ischia culture, and I also tested old dough methods. Toward the end of the Trenton thread, another member (bfx9) said that he was told by a server at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, who apparently made the dough at that location, that he thought that the yeast was made for them, although he didn't know where they got it from and thought that the yeast was maybe a special order. It occurred to me that maybe the server was thinking of fresh (cake) yeast. To a young, unitiated person, cake yeast might be considered an oddity. It should also be noted that back in the 1930s when the Trentonites started making tomato pies, cake yeast was the only commercial yeast available to bakers. Having watched how non-tech the De Lorenzo/Hudson business was, it would not shock me that they may have used fresh yeast for decades, even after ADY and IDY were invented. If De Lorenzo/Hudson was using fresh yeast at the time they closed, it also wouldn't surprise me if De Lorenzo/Robbinsville did the same. From what I have seen, just about everything that De Lorenzo/Hudson did with respect to its dough and pies carried over to the Robbinsville location. Even Gary and his wife Eileen spend time at the Robbinsville location, albeit only part time. You can see Gary make a cameo YouTube appearance at the Robbinsville location at

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMS-ZT2GvOE)

With the above as background, here are the modified De Lorenzo clone dough formulations:

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, Without Sugar
Pillbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Total (159.92%):
179.94 g  |  6.35 oz | 0.4 lbs
102.56 g  |  3.62 oz | 0.23 lbs
0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.7 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.44 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 12" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #3, With Sugar
Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.42%):
Salt (1.50%):
Olive Oil (0.20%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (0.80%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.42%):
178.26 g  |  6.29 oz | 0.39 lbs
101.61 g  |  3.58 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
0.36 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
2.67 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough (10 ounces) is for a single 12" pizza; corresponding thickness factor = 0.065; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Peter

Peter,

I know if you make a promise you will keep it.  I appreciate you set forth two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to try.  I will enter the TF of 0.065 and 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculation tool if that is right.  I might be confused, but I thought De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza sizes were 14” and 16”.  Also why would I used a dough ball weight of 13 ounces for a pizza size of 12” when you gave me 10 ounces for a 14” pizza in Reply 462  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671) with the thickness factor of 0.065?  My printer isn't working right now so I would have to write down which formulation I want to try with a paper and pencil from the expanded dough calculation tool.   Wouldn't 13 ounces be for a 16” pizza?  Maybe I am not understanding something right. 

Thanks for telling me in your home setting with a hydration of 57% and 1% blend of oils it is hard for you to create a dough ball that is as robust as what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville makes using their Hobart mixer. 

I don't know if I can open a skin in 25 seconds, but will try.

Bill and I didn't detect any yeast flavor in the pizza crust we had at De Lorenzo/Robbinville.  I know people reported a yeast flavor on the Trenton thread though.  I would think De Lorenzo/Robbinsville might be using cake yeast because a lot of bigger pizzerias do use that and cake yeast is old school.   

Thanks for the video where Gary makes a cameo appearance at the Robbinsville location.

If I ever get this type of pizza right I don't think I could offer it at market, because I think that type of pizza is better eaten fresh so the bottom crust stays crispy and crunchy, but I would like to be able to make a decent version to eat when I want.

I have some cake yeast at home right now, but I guess it would not be good to try that now.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 11:17:18 AM
Norma,

This morning, I found another collection of photos as apparently taken by diners at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville

https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos (https://foursquare.com/v/delorenzos-tomato-pies/4bafbfa9f964a520861d3ce3/photos)

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the collection of photos you found.  I did see them in my searches.  It is always good to look at them again though, because they sure do make me hungry for another De Lorenzo's pizza.   ;D

I don't think I knew this before, but in my searches I saw a photo that I guess were De Lorenzo/Hamilton unbaked pizzas.  Maybe they sold them at the market that Bill and I were at before they closed their business there.  The big pizza in the photo does look like the rim crust is about the same as Bill and I ate though.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 11:49:46 AM
I know if you make a promise you will keep it.  I appreciate you set forth two new iterations of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough to try.  I will enter the TF of 0.065 and 13 ounces into the expanded dough calculation tool if that is right.  I might be confused, but I thought De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizza sizes were 14” and 16”.  Also why would I used a dough ball weight of 13 ounces for a pizza size of 12” when you gave me 10 ounces for a 14” pizza in Reply 462  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg276671.html#msg276671) with the thickness factor of 0.065?  My printer isn't working right now so I would have to write down which formulation I want to try with a paper and pencil from the expanded dough calculation tool.   Wouldn't 13 ounces be for a 16” pizza?  Maybe I am not understanding something right. 
Norma,

I'm sorry I confused you. As you noted, I misstated the sizes of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pies. But to recapitulate, the amount of dough for the 14" size is 10 ounces; for the 16" size, it is 13 ounces. As I noted previously, 10 ounces and 13 ounces are nice round numbers. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. It is possible that De Lorenzo Robbinsville is making skins with different thickness factors, as often happens when places make more than one size pizza (Mellow Mushroom is a good example and Papa John's to a lesser degree), but for our purposes I used the same thickness factor for both the 14" and 16" sizes. I did not see any signs of scales at the De Lorenzo/Hudson location, so I suspect that after about 65 years in the business Gary Amico did not need a scale to measure out dough balls of the right sizes. The Robbinsville location may not need a scale either if it is using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported. Also, it does a much bigger business than was conducted at the Hudson location, which was only open on Thursdays through Sundays from 4 PM to 9 PM. By contrast, the Robbinsville location is open for lunch Tuesday-Friday, from 11 AM to 2PM, and for dinner Tuesday-Sunday, from 4 PM to 10 PM. They are closed on Mondays.

I have edited my last post to correct the misstatements on the pie sizes.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 12:59:51 PM
Norma,

I'm sorry I confused you. As you noted, I misstated the sizes of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pies. But to recapitulate, the amount of dough for the 14" size is 10 ounces; for the 16" size, it is 13 ounces. As I noted previously, 10 ounces and 13 ounces are nice round numbers. As it so happens, the corresponding thickness factor for both sizes is about 0.065. It is possible that De Lorenzo Robbinsville is making skins with different thickness factors, as often happens when places make more than one size pizza (Mellow Mushroom is a good example and Papa John's to a lesser degree), but for our purposes I used the same thickness factor for both the 14" and 16" sizes. I did not see any signs of scales at the De Lorenzo/Hudson location, so I suspect that after about 65 years in the business Gary Amico did not need a scale to measure out dough balls of the right sizes. The Robbinsville location may not need a scale either if it is using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported. Also, it does a much bigger business than was conducted at the Hudson location, which was only open on Thursdays through Sundays from 4 PM to 9 PM. By contrast, the Robbinsville location is open for lunch Tuesday-Friday, from 11 AM to 2PM, and for dinner Tuesday-Sunday, from 4 PM to 10 PM. They are closed on Mondays.

I have edited my last post to correct the misstatements on the pie sizes.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for unconfusing me.  I thought I had lost it for a little.  :-D  I agree that 10 ounces for a 14” pizza and 13 ounces for a 16” pizza are nice round numbers.  I did not see any signs of scales either at De Lorenzo/Hudson when doing searches.  I understand that the new De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location might not need a scale either if they are using a dough divider/rounder as has been reported.  I wonder how they weight their ingredients for their doughs.  I know the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville locations does a much bigger business than the De Lorenzo/Hudson St. location.  I was surprised to see how big the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville location was inside and how many pizzas they were making at one time.  It was somewhat amusing to see some tables that had three people seated at them and they did get 3 pizzas.  Even though De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas are very light I could not eat a whole pizza even if it was a 14” pizza at one seating. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 01:58:34 PM
I wonder how they weight their ingredients for their doughs.
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM)

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 02:16:02 PM
Norma,

After my last post, out of curiosity, I reworked the no-sugar dough formulation that I gave you with a starting flour amount of 50 pounds, or 800 ounces. That amount of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls. We don't know the mix of the two dough ball weights but a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs. For a 75/25 mix of large/small pizzas, with a total of 200 pizzas, three 50-lb bags might be needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 02:21:22 PM
Norma,

The Robbinsville location may be more sophisticated in how it makes its dough than the old Hudson location, because of its larger volume and its willingness to use more modern methods and equipment, but I would imagine that Gary Amico, or possibly his predecessors in the business at the Hudson location, came up with the dough recipe by using volume measurements, just as many old timers did back then. Most likely the starting point was a 50-lb bag of flour, to which they added the rest of the ingredients by using volume measurements, and tweaked those ingredients as necessary to achieve the desired finished dough characteristics. Even then, I imagine that the volume measurements were often idiot-proof with nice round numbers that fit their measuring cups/containers and spoons. That is the way that Dom DeMarco at DiFara's has done it throughout his entire career. You can see another example of this, with even a more casual and crude approach to measurements, in the Vito & Nick's DDD video below. There was no need in either case to convert the volume measurements to weights. They left that for us to do :-D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ob1tLx5wiM)

Peter

Peter,

I had thought about that Gary Amico and possibly his predecessors might have just used volume measurements.  I agree about the nice round numbers measuring in volume measurements.   I know my one pizza guy near me does that.  That was the first recipe I tried for pizza and you know how I messed everything up using those volume measurements.   :-D

I recall that Vito & Nick's video and how you, I and other members pondered over what really were the weights used.  At least it was fun.   

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 08:55:05 PM
Peter,

I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2013, 09:03:08 PM
I missed your post I guess because I was composing my post.  That is interesting that 50 pounds of flour would have produced exactly 128 10-ounce dough balls or almost 100 13-ounce dough balls.  I think a couple of 50-lb bags of flour might have been enough too at the Hudson location to meet their daily needs.
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2013, 09:32:36 PM
Norma,

In one of the articles I read, it said that the De Lorenzo/Hudson location made several hundred pizzas a week.

Peter

Peter,

I must have missed that article in my searches.  I can't believe how many articles and other places do post about De Lorenzo/Robbinville/Hudson.  That was an eye opening thing for me.  I continue to find articles or places I haven't seen before.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 11:51:25 AM
Peter,

I mixed your De Lorenzo Clone Dough Formulation #2, without sugar because I was curious to see if really any sugar in needed to get bottom crust browning.  The dough was finished mixing at 10:45 AM. 

I added all the other ingredients to the flour, except added the oil to the water.  The first mix was with the flat beater only again and was mixed on speeds two and three for 4 minutes.  The dough looked fine at that point (first photo).  I let the dough rest for 10 minutes and mixed on speed 4 for six more minutes.  My Kitchen Aid Professional HD did not have any trouble mixing the De Lorenzo Clone Formulation #2 with the flat beater only in both mixes.  I used my bigger scale again to weigh the flour and water and used my smaller scale to weigh the other ingredients.

The dough felt nice after both mixes and was 10.1 ounce so I took a little piece off and then balled and floured.  I used semolina on the bottom of the plastic container, just to see what semolina does on the bottom.  The dough balled easily.  The final dough temperature was 80.5 degrees F.

I took a short video of the second mix near the end of the mix to show how easily my Kitchen Aid Professional HD mixes a dough like this that is somewhat lower in hydration.  I think my Kitchen Aid Professional HD could mix a dough that is lower in hydration without having to resort to other methods of mixing like finishing the mix by hand.  If I recall right, you said a dough like this might be harder to mix in your Kitchen Aid mixer.

Video

http://youtu.be/GtL4Vd4l3QA (http://youtu.be/GtL4Vd4l3QA)


Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 09, 2013, 12:52:33 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188). The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 06:06:02 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting the video. You did a very nice job imitating the sound that your mixer makes.

My KitchenAid stand mixer is an old one but it is the mixer I have always used to conduct my tests and experiments so I have been reluctant to change horses midstream. In your case, with your obviously more efficient mixer, a good experiment might be to try making a lower hydration dough such as the dough that Bob is currently taking under advisement as to whether he will attempt that dough formulation or not. That is the one I posted at the bottom of Reply 502 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg277188.html#msg277188). The calculated water content for that formulation is about 38.2-40.1 based on a flour moisture content of 11-14% (for my flour, the 38.2% number is more likely more accurate). For comparison purposes, the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2 you used today has a corresponding calculated water content of 42.5-44.4%. As I mentioned before, if the hydration bake tests you conducted on the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough were correct, and likewise for the one I conducted on a low-hydration dough based on your hydration bake test results, something wet would have to fill in the big space in the dough formulation. My guess would be oil. In the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville Clone Dough Formulation #2, that hole is filled by more water, hence the higher hydration and higher calculated water content.

On the matter of the semolina versus cornmeal debate, the other day I looked at my semolina flour and a few cornmeal products in my pantry, and the cornmeal looked noticeably more yellow than the semolina and more like what the photos and videos show. However, when I did a Google Image search on the two products, the colors were all over the place. So, the jury is still out on this one.

Peter

Peter,

Did you hear any sounds in the video I posted?  I could heard every sound when I listened to the video on my Media player, but I have no idea why I can't hear everything that went on when I uploaded it to YouTube.  My great-granddaugther was singing in the backround of that video, she was also watching TV which also was somewhat loud and the mixer did make noises.  When I tried to listen to that video on YouTube and here on the forum I heard nothing. 

I understand why you don't want to change mixers now since your mixer has served you well for all your experiments and cloning a reverse engineering pizzas. 

I could try the experiment making the dough like you gave Bob.  I think I would add more salt though if I am going to bake it into a pizza.  If I find time I will mix it this evening and will take another video.  What amount of IDY would you advise me to use if the dough would be used to make a pizza later tomorrow afternoon?

On the matter of cornmeal and semolina I only had that one kind of semolina at market (the one my daughter brought home from NYC awhile ago) and I brought it home from market for the dough ball I made today.  My semolina is lighter in color and really not that yellow.  I believe De Lorenzo/Sloan is using cornmeal, but I don't know what De Lorenzo Robbinsville is using. 

I took two videos at market today of my 20 qt. Hobart mixer in the 2 sequences that I mix the boardwalk style dough.  That thing is a work horse compared to my mixer at home.  I will post those videos later when they are finished uploading.  One video takes about an hour to upload on YouTube if it is longer than the one I posted earlier today.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 09, 2013, 06:59:17 PM
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 07:36:23 PM
Norma,

Yes, I could hear your mixer in the video you posted wailing away as it kneaded the dough. That was the basis of my joke that you were imitating the mixer sounds.

As for the low-hydration dough, I would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time of the dough.

I have often wondered whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each other's dough recipes. After being in business since the 1930s-1940s, you would think that after the passage of over 60 years they would know each other's dough recipes. Maybe it was through family members, or present or former employees, possibly including disgruntled workers or workers with loose lips who might have said too much due to the consumption of too much alcohol at family or other gatherings. Sometimes the media seemed to like to refer to the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan as a sibling rivalry occasioned by some early differences that led to the split, whereas other reports have said that the family members remain friendly. It may be a bit far fetched, but if Gary and Sam Amico knew Rick De Lorenzo's dough recipe, and if Rick's dough used a lot of oil, I can see how Gary and Sam might have considered their use of oil to be slight by comparison.

I look forward to your results to see if any more secrets are revealed.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you could hear my mixer in the video wailing away as it mixed the dough.  The mixer even drowned out my great-granddaugther singing, which is good because she has a bad head cold.  That is strange I can't hear the video here on the forum or on YouTube.  The last video from De Lorenzo/Robbinsville I could hear here on the forum. 

Thanks for telling me you would use 0.55% IDY to shorten the fermentation time.

I have wondered too whether the two sides of the De Lorenzo clan know each others dough recipes.  I also think the loose lips due too much consumption of alcohol or for other reason they might know.  Who even knows, maybe Rick does use about the same formulation, but his dough weights more for the same size pizza.  Who even knows if Gary and Sam would tell anyone the truth about how much oil is in their dough.  If I had a famous dough recipe that made people come and get my pizzas the way De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson have them flocking I would not give it out to just anyone.  I really don't think Rick uses as much salt though.  I had planned to try 10 ounces of Rick's dough leftover from the large dough ball in my BS, but I became too busy trying to get things ready for an event at Root's on Saturday.  I figured if I stopped my work to make a pizza I would not want to start working again. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 07:43:29 PM


In case anyone doesn't know it, I do use the delayed method adding the oil after the first mix and a rest period before the oil is added.

This is the first video of my 20 qt. Hobart mixing the dough for the boardwalk style of pizzas.  This is the total time it took for the first mix. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfxXrkBNuI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjfxXrkBNuI)

A rest period is done for 10 minutes, then the mixer it started again and mixed until the drizzled olive oil is incorporated. 

This is what the photos show.

1. Ingredients used for one batch of dough at market.
2. Dough after first mix, it looks shaggy, but there are no ingredients on the bottom of the mixer bowl.
3. All Trumps I use for the boardwalk style of pizza.
4. Shaggy dough resting.
5. Dough on bench after being mixed the second time.  It still looks somewhat shaggy.
6. How the dough stretches and is relaxing some after some dough is scaled.
7. How dough stretches after all the dough is scaled for one batch of dough.
8. Some balled dough balls.
9. Dough balls are starting to relax more after they are oiled and put into plastic bags.

I will post the second video of the delayed addition of the oil when it is finished uploading.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 07:46:26 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 07:47:19 PM
One photo I could not add in my last post.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 09:12:19 PM
This is the second part of the mix in the Hobart mixer with the drizzle of the olive oil down the side of the mixer bowl.  This was the total time mixed the second time too, expect I turned on the mixer first before I started taking the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbjgFHOAJKo&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbjgFHOAJKo&feature=youtu.be) 

Please excuse the tiles that are off of my floor at market, but I am having problems with my deli case and water that defrosts from it accumulating and not drying out.  Each time I drain the water out it makes the floor wet, so the tiles came up and I am not going to put the tiles down again until I get that problem fixed.  I got some repair inserts for the drain tube at our local True Value hardware store, but each time I got them they weren't the right size.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 09:18:49 PM
Well, I mixed the lower hydration dough and my Kitchen Aid Professional HD did groan more  :-D, but it did mix the dough okay.  The mixer bowl was rocking, but at least it did not come off the place where the mixer bowl is held and the Kitchen Aid didn't move on the kitchen counter.  I am not sure if the videos of parts of both of the mixes will turn out because it is darker in my kitchen since it is nighttime, but I am trying to upload them.  This is what the finished dough ball looks like.  When I used the expanded dough calculation tool I did use 10 ounces as the dough weight and a 1.5 bowl residue compensation, because I wanted to see how 10 ounces of dough would compare to the pizza I made before using a higher weight when I used the De Lorenzo/Sloan dough ball. 

I mixed exactly the same as my last dough this morning, but I had a higher final dough temperature.  I guess that was from the harder time my mixer had with mixing the dough.  I did use 1.5 % salt, because I didn't want a tasteless crust.  I did put the same semolina in the bottom of the plastic container and floured the dough ball the same as I did with the dough ball I made this morning.  The dough did ball okay, but it feels drier.

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 09, 2013, 10:00:11 PM
Norma,

Nice job.

For your information, I calculated the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour) you used to make the two dough balls. I also calculated the "effective" hydration value (the sum of the hydration and oil percents) for the two dough balls.

Here are the numbers:

Robbinsville clone dough ball: 43.2% water content; effective hydration of 58%

Sloan clone dough ball: 38.8% water content; effective hydration of 53%

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 10:21:40 PM
Norma,

Nice job.

For your information, I calculated the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour (Pillsbury Best Bakers Patent Flour) you used to make the two dough balls. I also calculated the "effective" hydration value (the sum of the hydration and oil percents) for the two dough balls.

Here are the numbers:

Robbinsville clone dough ball: 43.2% water content; effective hydration of 58%

Sloan clone dough ball: 38.8% water content; effective hydration of 53%

Peter

Peter,

It sure wasn't me that mixed the lower hydration dough as good as it did.  It was my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Thank you for calculating the water content of the two dough balls, using 11% as the moisture content of the flour and calculating the “effective hydration”. 

The Sloan clone dough ball is sure lower in hydration than the Robbinsville clone dough ball.  It is interesting to see those numbers so I can understand better.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 09, 2013, 10:24:24 PM
This video is darker, but it gives an idea of how hard of a time my mixer had in the first part of the mix with the lower hydration dough in the Kitchen Aid Professional HD.  YouTube did enhance the video so it would be a little lighter after I pushed the button to say enhance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkq1i1XdM6Q&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkq1i1XdM6Q&feature=youtu.be)

I will see if the second video uploads okay, but so far it is darker.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2013, 06:30:42 AM
This was part of the second mix in the Kitchen Aid Professional HD of the Sloan clone dough, after the rest period.  The video took a long time to upload and was put in a queue.  I guess that because the video was so dark and YouTube couldn't figure out what to do with it.  I didn't have an opportunity to enhance the lightness of this video, but the clanking can be heard of mixing the lower hydration of the Sloan clone dough.  This was the second time I tried to upload the same video, but it turned out the same.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZpaQ7-amP4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZpaQ7-amP4)

In my opinion the videos of my Kitchen Aid mixing two doughs and the two videos at market using the Hobart do show that many mixing techniques can be used to get a pizza dough that is useable and not all mixers even of the same type like a Kitchen Aid, or a Hobart mix the same.  If I were to take videos of mixing a much higher hydration dough like the Detroit style at home in my Kitchen Aid, or at market in the Hobart it would be able to be seen most people have to learn how to mix their doughs with whatever equipment they have available.  That includes hand mixing.  Just like formulations for pizza doughs in my opinion mixing can matter in all the variables it takes to make a good pizza.  At market I mixed a shorter time than I normally do the second time so the video wouldn't take too long to upload.  My dough balls usually look smoother than they did, but I think the dough balls will still produce about the same kinds of pizzas today.

I only used speed one on the Hobart at market to mix the boardwalk style of dough the two times.  I have no idea what speed, or speeds and how long De Lorenzo/Robbinville uses on their mixer if they still use a Hobart.  My attempts at mixing two De Lorenzo's doughs might not be anything like they mix their dough and even if I was anywhere close in my mixing efforts my doughs might not act the same.       

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2013, 10:23:11 PM
I will just post a few things tonight about both bakes today, but they did surprise me somewhat.  The Sloan clone dough produced a pizza almost like De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  It was crunchy and crispy across the whole bottom crust and did brown.  It didn't char quite enough, but it reminded me of the pizza Trenton Bill and I ate at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  The bake time for the Sloan clone pizza was 9 minutes 45 seconds.  At first I thought the first slice drooped when picking up a slice right after it was cut and right out of the oven, but when eating a couple of slices the slices stood straight out.   

The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough ball produced a pizza that was somewhat soft on the middle of the bottom crust even though when cut it did sound crispy across the whole pizza.  I think I applied too much Sorrento cheese to the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizzas though and don't  know how that affected the whole pizza. 

This is a video of the attempted Sloan pizza being cut.  It was not cut right, but it can be seen how it looked. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57jArBCsdw&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O57jArBCsdw&feature=youtu.be)

This is a video of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville attempted pizza bring being cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rw34JQALw0&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Rw34JQALw0&feature=youtu.be) 

Both rim crusts were darker than they appear in the videos.

I will post some regular photos tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:11:31 AM
The Sloan clone dough ball developed a bubble on the top at one place while it was in the deli case.  When the dough ball was taken out of the deli case I did pinch the bubble to deflate it.  The dough ball sat out to warm up for about 1 ½ hrs and no more bubbles formed on the top.  There were no fermentation bubbles while pressing it out.  The Sloan clone dough balled pressed out okay.  The dough ball didn't have great elasticity or extensibility though.  The temperature at market yesterday was about 94 degrees F or a little hotter right next to the oven and was very humid.  Since it was very humid, like it is sometimes in hot weather at market, flour wants to stick to the work bench and on my hands more than usual.  I knew I would not be able to open the dough ball more over the marble table with trying to slide it around a lot because of the sticking flour and because the dough is so thin.  I did the best I could though and finished stretching by hand to a finished skin size of 14”  The Sloan clone dough pizza was dressed with Sorrento part skim mozzarella that I grated and a blend of Red Pack tomatoes crushed and 6-in 1s.  Olive oil was drizzled over the top of the dressings before it went into the oven. 

Steve and I tasted a piece the Sorrento part skim mozzarella and we thought it had a good taste.  The Sorrento part skim mozzarella really wanted to get soft quick at those higher temperatures and we did leave the Sorrento part skim mozzarella that I grated in the pizza prep fridge until I started to open the dough ball.

The Sloan clone dough pizza baked well at my oven temperatures and the rim was oiled near the end of the bake.  After the bake more olive oil was drizzled on top of the pizza.  As I posted in my last post the pizza was crisp and crunchy across the whole pizza after the bake.  The bottom of the crust did brown well too without any sugar.  Steve and I wondered how such a thin pizza with not many dressings takes so long to bake.   

The photos show more how the bottom crust looked, but the rim crust was really darker than it appears on some of my photos.  The semolina side of the dough was used as the bottom crust and we didn't taste any semolina or see it on the baked bottom of the pizza.  The semolina did stick to the bottom of the dough ball.  The rest of the semolina on the bottom of the plastic container did not stick to the plastic container even though there was some condensation on the lid of the plastic container.  The remaining semolina in the plastic container could have been easily dumped out. 

As I posted before the Sloan clone dough made a pizza that reminded me of of the pizza Trenton Bill and I ate at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville.  I think a little more salt could have been added though and am not sure if the Sloan clone dough formulation mixing was enough.

Norma
     
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:14:31 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:16:46 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:26:57 AM
The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson clone dough ball didn't develop any bubbles on the top of the dough ball while it was in the deli case.  It did develop a bubble after it was warm up for 1 ½ hrs. at the ambient temperatures at market. 

The De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson clone dough ball from Peter's formulation did have fermentation bubbles when pressing it out.  I could pressed it some and slide it while draped over the marble table, but not a lot because of the sticking flour issue.  The skin was then stretched by hand to 14”.  The semolina side of the skin was also used as the bottom of the pizza. 

The same dressings were used on this pizza, but more mozzarella was used and the sequences of adding the olive oil was the same.  The Sorrento part skim mozzarella does want to clump fast when at warm room temperatures even though I also left the Sorrento cheese in the pizza prep fridge until I was ready to press out the skin.  The Sorrento part skim mozzarella the way I purchased it is very soft when grating too.  The bottom crust did brown on this pizza too, but not as much in my opinion.  The bottom crust was not crunchy and crispy like the the other pizza was right after it was cut and cooled down.  The edges of the bottom rim crust were somewhat crispy.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:30:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 09:33:01 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 11, 2013, 12:40:33 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the two experiments using the Sloan and Robbinsville dough balls. I was anxiously looking forward to seeing and analyzing your results.

In retrospect, I think it was a good idea for you to use the same dough ball weight for the two pizzas. That way, we could see the effects of the different hydration values (actual and "effective") on the final results. Unfortunately, because of the unusual temperature and humidity conditions you experienced at market yesterday and their effects on the dough balls and skins, including bubbling, I am not sure what factors governed the final results you achieved and what, if any, changes to the dough formulations might be called for or suggested by your results. It may well be that you will be better served if you conducted the experiments at home where you would be better able to control the operating environment. Also, you would be able to make a two- or three-day cold fermented dough that would be similar to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is said to be using. Moreover, since you indicated that you have no plans to offer tomato pies at market, maybe a home setting is better for your purposes. There may be other perils to a home environment, such as not having the proper oven to bake the tomato pies, but you at least know and have pretty much all of the right ingredients. 

Returning to the hydration issue mentioned above, if your results suggested that the hydration value of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation should be lowered in order to get a more uniform crispiness across the entire pizza, then something else in the dough formulation would have to be increased. And, since there is no sugar in the dough from what we have been told, that would mean that the amounts of salt, yeast or oil, or a combination thereof, would have to be increased. Increasing the amount of salt and/or yeast while keeping them at functional values would not be enough. Rather, it would mean having to increase the amount of the oil (blend). We were previously told that not much oil was used in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. In that vein, I considered 1% oil to be a small amount but I might also consider 2% oil as being a small amount. So, maybe lowering the hydration 1% and increasing the oil blend by 1% might be worth trying at some point.

From the looks of the finished pizzas, it seemed that the thickness factor was in the ballpark. Did you find that so?

I do not think that the somewhat different amounts of toppings on the two pizza made a big difference between the two pizzas you made. From what I have read and seen, it appears that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas have consistently firm crusts for most toppings combinations, and certainly for the plain cheese and tomato pies. I did read that when multiple toppings, and especially ones with high water contents, are used on De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas, the slices/pieces can be droopy from time to time. But that is something I would expect, at least some of the time.

Also, can you comment on how the pizzas tasted, both in absolute terms and in relation to the two De Lorenzo pizzas you had recently?

Peter

Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: beaunehead on September 11, 2013, 05:29:02 PM
Peter....after all this work you've done on Delorenzo's....it really is time for you to get out here and visit the place. Who knows; they might even answer some questions for you if you tell them you moderate Pizzamaking.com. Maybe you could even call them. They might be flattered, though I'd be surprised if they really had the hydration numbers, etc. But, what's the harm.

Otherwise your just Dancin' in the Dark, as a poet who was born not that far from Robbinsville called one of his songs....just sitting 'round trying to make this pie..you need a NJ dough "reaction"...

Just curious, have you ever called places like Delo's that everyone loves...and just asked them basic questions? The worst they could do is say....sorry. Just a thought....to avoid dancing in the dark.
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2013, 08:27:14 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for conducting the two experiments using the Sloan and Robbinsville dough balls. I was anxiously looking forward to seeing and analyzing your results.

In retrospect, I think it was a good idea for you to use the same dough ball weight for the two pizzas. That way, we could see the effects of the different hydration values (actual and "effective") on the final results. Unfortunately, because of the unusual temperature and humidity conditions you experienced at market yesterday and their effects on the dough balls and skins, including bubbling, I am not sure what factors governed the final results you achieved and what, if any, changes to the dough formulations might be called for or suggested by your results. It may well be that you will be better served if you conducted the experiments at home where you would be better able to control the operating environment. Also, you would be able to make a two- or three-day cold fermented dough that would be similar to what De Lorenzo/Robbinsville is said to be using. Moreover, since you indicated that you have no plans to offer tomato pies at market, maybe a home setting is better for your purposes. There may be other perils to a home environment, such as not having the proper oven to bake the tomato pies, but you at least know and have pretty much all of the right ingredients. 

Returning to the hydration issue mentioned above, if your results suggested that the hydration value of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation should be lowered in order to get a more uniform crispiness across the entire pizza, then something else in the dough formulation would have to be increased. And, since there is no sugar in the dough from what we have been told, that would mean that the amounts of salt, yeast or oil, or a combination thereof, would have to be increased. Increasing the amount of salt and/or yeast while keeping them at functional values would not be enough. Rather, it would mean having to increase the amount of the oil (blend). We were previously told that not much oil was used in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough. In that vein, I considered 1% oil to be a small amount but I might also consider 2% oil as being a small amount. So, maybe lowering the hydration 1% and increasing the oil blend by 1% might be worth trying at some point.

From the looks of the finished pizzas, it seemed that the thickness factor was in the ballpark. Did you find that so?

I do not think that the somewhat different amounts of toppings on the two pizza made a big difference between the two pizzas you made. From what I have read and seen, it appears that the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas have consistently firm crusts for most toppings combinations, and certainly for the plain cheese and tomato pies. I did read that when multiple toppings, and especially ones with high water contents, are used on De Lorenzo/Robbinsville pizzas, the slices/pieces can be droopy from time to time. But that is something I would expect, at least some of the time.

Also, can you comment on how the pizzas tasted, both in absolute terms and in relation to the two De Lorenzo pizzas you had recently?

Peter

Peter,

I know I had some problems with the heat and humidity yesterday, but I have no idea why the Sloan dough ball bubbled in the deli case.  That deli case is kept cold because all the drinks stored there are kept really cold for customers.  Customers comment that my sodas and water are colder than most other food stands.  I can understand why the De Lorenozo/Robbinsville/Hudson dough bubbled at the ambient room temperature yesterday because it was very hot. 

Maybe it would be better if I didn't do anymore experiments for a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson clone pizza.  I wonder how there would have been a two or three day cold ferment at Hudson years ago when there sure probably would not have been enough refrigeration to do that.  If I recall right years ago most pizza businesses did not have a lot of refrigeration space. 

I don't know if you recall, but my home oven sure doesn't get up to 550 degrees F and is very anemic in temperatures.  I am not sure either if I can get the right bake temperatures and right bake times in my BS.   Both of those would be more variables until I could figure out how both of my ovens work for any formulation you might have in mind. 

I really have no idea if my results suggest that the hydration value of the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone dough formulation should be lowered to get a more uniform crispness across the entire pizza.  Since we were previously told that not much oil was used in the De Lorenzo/Robbinsville dough maybe there is no use trying more experiments.   

I did think the thickness factors were in the ball park.  Thanks for telling me you do not think the extra toppings on the two pizzas made a big difference between the two pizzas I made. 

The reasoning as why I would not offer a De Lorenzo/Robbinsville clone pizza at market if we were able to create one is because I don't think enough customers in my area really like really thin pizzas and I already have two doughs to handle and don't want to have to handle having more ingredients on hand all the time.  Right now my boardwalk style of pizzas are gaining in popularity and I don't want to mess that up because customers are telling me that they are the best pizzas they have eaten.  Who knows if that will continue, but at least in the last two months I had many favorable comments on the boardwalk style of pizzas I am making now from customers from all over.  I had many customers ask me if I have a regular pizza shop somewhere.

To answer your question on how both pizzas tasted in absolute terms and in relation to the two De Lorenzo pizzas I had recently is the Sloan clone dough pizza tasted very close to me to the pizza I ate at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, except there was not enough of char on some of the edges and bottom crust.  I have no idea if other members might think that though, because I only ate one pizza at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, so I am no expert on how they are supposed to taste.  To compare how the Sloan clone dough pizza tasted in relationship to the pizza Trenton Bill and I tried at De Lorenzo/Sloan I posted before I really didn't like their pizza and thought the one I tried yesterday was much better.  I sure have no idea how De Lorenzo/Sloan pizzas taste across the board, because I only tried one and our pizza sure wasn't very dark in the rim crust or bottom crust.  Maybe I am not even the right person to evaluate either pizza because I haven't tried them enough times.  To me and Steve the De Lorenzo/Robbinville clone pizza was almost like any other pizza in that is was somewhat soft in the middle crust, but with a little crisp or crunch on the rim crust.  The cheese and sauce blend did give the pizza a nice different taste though. 

To comment a little more I think even with the higher temperatures and humidity yesterday there is still something wrong with the Sloan clone dough ball in how it acted.  It was not elastic or extensible enough.  I think that the skin would have wanted to fall apart too quick if I fooled around with it too much.

Maybe testing should go to Stuart since from now on since he knows more about De Lorenzo/Robbinville/Hudson pizzas and was given more information.  As Stuart just posted I guess we are Dancing in the Dark.

I am not usually a person to give up, but there seems to be two many different things said about De Lorenzo/Robbinsville/Hudson pizzas to have enough information to figure out it all out.

Norma 
Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2013, 07:49:42 AM
Stuart,

I have been involved in reverse engineering and cloning pizzas of others for many years. And, to be honest, a good part of that time I danced in the dark. Until Norma came along, I pretty much danced in the dark alone. When Norma arrived on the scene with the desire to make pizzas that she might be able to sell at market, I at least had a dance partner--one who had access to professional ingredients and a commercial deck oven no less-- but we still spent a good part of our time dancing in the dark. The reality is that people do not easily and willingly part with secrets of their businesses. They might tell you that their pizza dough is made up of flour, water, yeast, salt and maybe oil and/or sugar, and "a little of this and a little of that", but all that does is describe the haystack. The needle that I want is the baker's percents. Some of the younger pizza professionals have learned how to use baker's percents, most likely because of people like Tom Lehmann who spent years getting them to understand and use baker's percents, but the old timers were (and still are for the most part) volume oriented. If you ask an old timer about baker's percents, you are likely to draw a blank stare or they may tell you they have no idea of what your are talking about. Instead, they might talk about or show you water containers and measuring cups and bags of flours.

Over the years, I have spoken and/or exchanged emails with countless people from all parts of the pizza business in the U.S. (and occasionally in Canada, the UK and other companies in Europe via email), including ingredients and equipment suppliers and vendors, pizza operators, food brokers, an occasional executive chef, and customer service reps. Of these, I would say the least productive sources of information on dough formulations have been pizza operators and customer service reps. Often, they simply don't know the answers to questions posed to them, or they will politely say that they don't know even if they do. Sometimes, rather than say that they don't know the answers, I think that they just guess and end up giving you information that is either wrong or conflicts with information from other parts of the same enterprise. I also think that some people try to throw you off of the scent by intentionally giving answers that are wrong. Customer service reps are especially good at not revealing the trade secrets of the companies they work for because they are trained not to to do so. Once in a while someone will slip up and reveal a useful piece of information, but that does not happen very often.

It takes time to successfully reverse engineer and clone pizzas of others, especially when your are on the outside looking in. A while back, while I was at Craig's Pizza Summit 2, I had the pleasure of talking with Zane and Brandon Hunt. These are guys who moved from the Detroit area to Austin, Texas to start a business (called Via 313) that was to sell Detroit style pizza. They now have two mobile pizza operations and are in the process of starting a fixed (non-mobile) pizzeria. They have received national acclaim for their pizzas. They were very open with me and most likely would have answered all of my questions. However, I joked with them that I was not going to ask them questions about their pizza dough, and that I would just reverse engineer and clone it. But when I asked the Hunt brothers how long it took them to come up with the dough formulation they used in their business, my recollection is that they said that it took them two years. And these are guys who had spent most of their lives in the Detroit area and had eaten and studied the Detroit style pizzas of all of the big names in the Detroit area. They spent a lot of their time in their kitchens making test pizzas and getting feedback from the people who ended up eating the test pizzas.

Peter


Title: Re: Trying to learn more about “Tomato Pies”
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2013, 08:15:30 AM
Norma,

Wh