Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 09:56:35 AM

Title: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 09:56:35 AM
Recently, at the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg32788.html#msg32788 (Reply 527), I mentioned that I used a markedly different method for preparing the dough in my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, one that yielded a dough that I was able to cold ferment for almost six days--and I believe it could have gone even longer--without signs of overfermentation. The dough also had very good extensibility without ripping or tearing, and the finished crust had outstanding flavor, approximating that which I have only achieved in the past using a natural preferment.

Since I reported on the new dough making method at the Lehmann thread, I have replicated it several times with equally good results. Rather than reporting the results at the Lehmann thread, even though I was using the basic Lehmann dough formulation to make the doughs, I thought it would be better to report on the new method in a new thread (here) since the method potentially has general application beyond the Lehmann application. To summarize, these are the highlights of the new method and the dough prepared using the method:

1) The flour used in the formulation is sifted at least once to improve its hydration.
2) A standard, basic KitchenAid stand mixer is used, with all three mixer attachments--whisk (a.k.a. whip), flat beater (a.k.a. paddle), and dough hook (C-hook)--being deployed in sequence during mixing and kneading.
3) Only one mixer speed--the “stir” speed--is used throughout the entire mixing/kneading process, thereby reducing the possibility of overkneading and the creation of excessive heat in the dough.
4) The dough formulation/preparation can accommodate a high hydration ratio--65% or better when using a high-gluten flour.
5) Autolyse features are used but no standard autolyse rest period(s), thereby reducing total dough preparation time while retaining some of the attributes and benefits of autolyse.
6) The finished dough is subjected to a brief “punch and knead” before refrigeration to improve its strength without overly developing the gluten.
7) The total elapsed time to prepare the finished dough is relatively short, about 10-12 minutes for a dough ball for a 12” pizza.
8) The finished dough has improved handling characteristics and can comfortably withstand five or more days of cold fermentation without exhibiting signs of overfermentation.
9) When long fermentation times are used, the finished crust has flavors approximating those achieved when using preferments.

In brief, with the new method, a high quality dough can be made in a short period of time in a basic KitchenAid mixer, using only the stir speed, and yield a dough that has very good handling qualities, autolyse-like attributes, and endure five or more days of cold fermentation and produce a crust with preferment-like flavors.

What follows in the next post is a description of how I actually implemented the new method.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 10:01:08 AM
For purposes of my experimentation, I used the basic Lehmann dough formulation for a 12” pizza, based on a thickness factor of 0.10 and a hydration of 65%. Using the dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, the final dough formulation was as follows:

KASL Flour (100%):          190.85 g  |  6.73 oz | 0.42 lbs
Water (65%):                   124.05 g  |  4.38 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                           1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                    3.34 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):                     0.48 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Sugar (0%):                      0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (168%):                   320.63 g | 11.31 oz | 0.71 lbs | TF = 0.1

I started the dough making process by first sifting the flour (KASL). Flour is sifted at the miller’s facility, but I have discovered that with time in storage it can settle and compact and form clumps. So, to improve its hydration, after weighing out the flour I sifted it twice. It is possible at this point to add the IDY to the flour and sift that too, which will more efficiently disperse it within the flour, but I believe that adding the yeast at this time foreshortens the useful life of the dough. I expounded on this aspect recently, in the context of using autolyse, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928 (Reply 42), and my recent experiments on this point seems to support the above conclusion, as will be discussed more fully below.

In preparation for their use, I coated the bottom parts of the whisk, flat beater and C-dough hook mixer attachments (see the photo below) with a bit of oil, applied very lightly with my fingers. It is not clear whether this was really necessary, but anything that could help keep the dough from sticking to the mixer attachments seemed like a good idea.

The first mixer attachment used was the whisk. It was mounted in my KitchenAid mixer, and all of the water in the formula was added to the mixer bowl. The water came directly out of the refrigerator, at around 40 degrees F. I found no need to temperature adjust the water to achieve the desired finished dough temperature in the 70-75 degrees F range because I suspected that the water would warm up in the bowl and since I was only using the stir speed over a relatively short period of time, the heat buildup in the dough due to machine friction would not be significant. Indeed, that turned out to be the case and the finished dough temperature was around 74 degrees F. I suspect that as the weather turns cooler here in Texas, I will use slightly warmer water and/or a bit more yeast to achieve comparable results.

With the mixer speed set at stir, I then added the sifted flour to the bowl, about a tablespoon at a time, aiming the flour at the center of the whisk. To be sure that as much of the flour as possible went into the whisk and was fully hydrated by the whip, I used a long, thin, flat, semi-flexible plastic spatula (also shown in the photo below) to scrape any random flour from the sides of the bowl-- which was actually quite minimal--into the path of the whisk. I continued to add the flour to the bowl until the dough started to collect in the middle of the whisk. I would estimate that I added about 2/3 of the flour while the whisk was attached and working the batter-like dough.

In my machine, I know when to stop adding the flour when using the whisk because the whisk makes a slight grunting/groaning sound when it can no longer effortlessly mix the dough, thereby serving as an audible signal to stop adding the flour. In my recent experiments, once I heard the sound, I stopped the mixer, removed the whisk, and shook and scraped the dough from the whisk back into the bowl. As one might suspect, some dough stuck to the wires of the whisk. However, I found an easy solution to this problem. While I didn’t use the solution this time, it is to simply increase the thickness factor in the dough calculating tool from 0.10 (as noted in the above formulation) to, say, 0.102 or 0.103. Doing this will automatically increase the total weight of the dough ball by an amount that should reasonably compensate for the small amount of dough that might stick to the whisk and take too much time to remove entirely. So, it’s no big deal if a bit of dough sticks to the whisk and can’t be easily removed. If one has a scale, the weight of the finished dough can be adjusted in any event, if desired, to get the final weight specified in the dough formulation.

Once the whisk had done its job to its maximum efficiency, I switched to the flat beater. I continued adding the flour, again at a tablespoon at a time, and allowed the flat beater to incorporate the added flour into the dough, also at stir speed. Once the dough started to pull off of the sides of the bowl and to gather around the flat beater (a convenient visual indicator), I added the IDY and let it incorporate into the dough, for about 30 seconds. I then added the remaining flour, the salt, and oil and incorporated them into the dough. In my case, I found it necessary to add a bit more water, about 1/2 t., to absorb all the remaining flour and get the desired tackiness in the dough. Just that added 1/2 t. raised the hydration of the dough to 66.4%. Yet, the dough was not just some wet, hard to handle blob.

Readers familiar with the autolyse process may have noted from the above description that I used many features and attributes of that process. Indeed, that was the case. I basically used the classic Calvel autolyse but without the usual rest period(s). As the classic Calvel autolyse dictates, only the flour was added to the water to start, followed later in the process by the IDY, and the salt and oil. Leaving the IDY out of the initial flour/water mixture (although it is an option as noted above) ensured that the dough would not be acidified (it prefers a neutral pH), and leaving the salt out at that point prevented it from affecting the performance of the enzymes (e.g., protease) and from affecting the gluten. Leaving out the oil prevented it from possibly impeding the hydration of the flour. Arguably, there was a small amount of resting of the dough as I switched from one mixer attachment to another, but I estimate that the totality of those incidental autolyse-like “rest” periods was about 1 1/2 minutes, if that. If those brief “rest” periods helped, I am indeed grateful.

After the dough was done kneading, I removed it from the flat beater and replaced the flat beater with the C-dough hook. The dough was kneaded with the dough hook only long enough to produce a smooth, soft, cohesive dough ball with a modest degree of tackiness. To me, the dough had much the feel and softness of an autolysed dough. Maybe not identical, but reasonably close.

As the final step before putting the dough into the refrigerator, I formed the dough into a round ball and placed it on my work surface (unfloured). Then, using the method described and shown at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm, with particular reference to Images 4b and 4c, I subjected the dough to about 30 seconds of “punch and knead” in order to strengthen it but without overly developing the gluten structure. With a small quantity of dough that I was making (11.3 ounces), this was a fairly simple exercise and took very little time. Once done, the dough was re-shaped into a round ball with a taut skin, brushed with a very small amount of oil, put into a metal, tightly lidded container, and then into the refrigerator. From the time that the water was first put into the mixer bowl until the finished dough went into the refrigerator, the total elapsed time was about 10-12 minutes. This is a fraction of the time usually consumed when autolyse and similar rest periods are used.

The next post in this series describes the most recent experiments using the method described above.

EDIT (12/12/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative Woodstone link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20140330190734/http://woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20140330190734/http://woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm)
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 10:10:11 AM
As part of my recent experiments, I made two doughs, one with the IDY added at the beginning and one with the IDY added toward the end. In all other respects, the doughs were as identical as I could make them. I found that while both doughs handled very well and were extensible and with good “anti-rip” qualities, and with no visible signs of overfermentation, the dough with the early introduction of the IDY did not have as long a window of usability as the dough with the later introduction of the IDY. The “early-IDY” dough was used about 5 1/2 days after formation, while the “late-IDY” dough was used after about 7 days. In both cases, I felt the doughs could have gone even longer. To be on the safe side, however, I decided to make pizzas out of both doughs rather than risk overfermentation. I was operating in new territory since I had never made functional doughs with such long periods of fermentation. In fact, I usually have difficulty in being able to get more than 3 days out of a standard Lehmann dough before using my standard KitchenAid mixer.

The first photo shown below is that of the late-IDY dough just after it was removed from the refrigerator (I did not take a photo of the early-IDY dough at the same stage). As with the early-IDY dough, it started out in the container as a round ball and gradually flattened. The early-IDY dough flattened faster and more than the late-IDY dough, leading me to conclude that the early-IDY dough fermented faster than the late-IDY dough. Both doughs had been put into similar containers and were put into the same part of my refrigerator compartment and in all respects were treated as identically as I could. Because of the type of containers I used and the dough flattening process, it is hard to say whether and how much expansion of the doughs took place. In a future experiment, I will use a narrow plastic container with straight sides to be able to note the actual degree of expansion.

About two hours after each of the doughs was removed from the refrigerator and brought to room temperature, it was shaped, sauced, cheesed, topped, and baked. Both pizzas were prepared in essentially the same manner except that I forgot to put fresh basil and oregano on the late-IDY pizza after it was finished baking. Each pizza was baked for about 6 minutes on a pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position that had been preheated for about an hour to about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was then moved to the top oven rack position for about an additional minute or so to increase the top crust coloration. No broiler element was needed or used to develop more top crust coloration.

The finished pizzas are shown in the photos below (the first set is the early-IDY pizza and the second set is the late-IDY pizza). Both pizzas were very good, but I would rate the late-IDY pizza as exceptional and among the best pizzas I have made. Both pizzas had good crust color and very good flavor, but the late-IDY pizza had a deeper and more robust crust color and more bubbles (there were also more bubbles in the dough) and a slightly larger and more airy rim. Both crusts clearly benefited from the long fermentation times and had flavors that approximated what I have only been able to achieve in the past through the use of natural preferments. Clearly, almost 6-7 days of fermentation produces significant amount of flavor-contributing by-products.

What surprised me most about the two pizzas was the noticeable sweetness in the crusts. This was consistent with my prior results using the new method and I am somewhat at a loss to understand why the crusts were sweet since I did not add any sugar to the basic dough formulation. What also surprised me is why, after about 6-7 days of fermentation, there was enough residual sugar in the doughs to promote both crust color and sweetness. I would normally have expected little color in the crust (and therefore requiring help from the broiler) and virtually no sweetness. As best I can determine, possibly what happened is that the sugars were released by enzyme performance from the starches in the flour but were not all used by the yeast as food and were therefore available for its other purposes. Whatever the answer is, the results were very good.

As the next post discusses, there are open issues to be further explored.

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 10:15:21 AM
I believe what I have done with the abovedescribed effort is just a starting point for further experimentation. For example, I don’t know which parts of the method are essential and which are not although I tried to optimize the process at each point and had a reason and purpose for each step. Uncertainty is what happens when one changes so many variables at one time. But, I did this intentionally, taking a page out of Jeff Varasano’s book--starting from scratch and deconstructing the entire dough making process and trying to put everything back together again with ideas that I felt would improve the process and, hopefully, were grounded in good science. I was also influenced by new member November in this latter respect.

What I was particularly looking for was a way of getting more and better efficiency out of my basic KitchenAid mixer, which I have criticized on many occasions on this forum and truly believe is a weak link in the home pizza making chain (along with the standard unmodified home oven). I did not want to go to a DLX machine or better because, as good as such machines may be, for me they would be a case of overkill since I almost always make small dough batches, just enough to make a pizza of up to 16” and, on rare occasion, 18”. What I did is mainly for people like me with basic KitchenAid (or similar) mixers. I also wanted to avoid using lengthy, multiple autolyse and similar rest periods. So, a total of 10-12 minutes of dough preparation time seemed about perfect for me when making small batches of dough, and rendered somewhat moot whether I needed one or more rest periods and of what duration(s).

I also don’t yet know how the method scales up to larger dough batch sizes, especially when the whisk attachment is used. Or whether using speeds other than stir will be an improvement, although I would be happy to discover that using only the stir speed, or even the “1” speed, is entirely sufficient, given that I was also trying to keep down the heat of friction. And I don’t know what adding a natural preferment will do to the final results, although I suspect they would be favorable. And I’m not sure what the optimum (cold) fermentation time is. It may also be that the punch and knead step is not needed.

Whatever ensues from this point, it strikes me that the overall method is not limited to a Lehmann-style dough formulation. It should work equally well with similar dough formulations used for making standard, flat pizzas based on fairly high hydration levels. I feel pretty confident from my experimentation to date that the hydration level can be increased above 65% when using a high-gluten flour. I just don’t know how far.

My plan at this juncture is to continue to use the new method to determine its strengths and weaknesses and to look for ways of improving the results. For the most part, I will perhaps stick with the 12” dough batch size because 12” is a common and popular size and 12” pizzas fit nicely on my pizza stone.

If others find merit in the method, they of course should feel free to do their own experimentation and, if they wish, report on their results at this thread, or other suitable place on the forum.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: David on October 22, 2006, 12:36:44 PM
Very insightfull post Peter.I'll be interested to see a side by side comparison of similar, utilizing natural starter over such a period and the resulting taste results?A sainthood is sure to follow soon I predict.(assuming Sant’Antonio Abate doesn't object  ;))
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 01:19:04 PM
David,

Thank you. If there is anything novel in the new technique, it would have to be some aspect of the combination, because every step, with the possible exception of using the whisk to aerate the water/flour combination and better hydrate the flour, is old. As an example, when I did a site search on using sifted flour, I found many instances where members did that, although its use was not highlighted. Of course, lubricating the mixing attachments (an old Alton Brown tip) and using autolyse in any of its many forms is not new, nor is the punch and fold technique. Hence, the austere topic description. If sainthood becomes a reality, maybe the topic description can be changed :).

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Christopher on October 22, 2006, 02:30:32 PM
Hey, Peter,
I just wanted to say that i have a Kitchenaid Pro series with a spiral hook and i have always only used stir speed. this comes from my fear of overheating the machine and the instructions for mine say to only use this speed for yeasted doughs. right or wrong, i have no idea. my doughs are inconsistent at best, so if i'm missing out on something, please chime in.
i definately need to better my technique because i have had too many what i felt were underfermented or poorly worked doughs.
Christopher
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2006, 02:58:16 PM
Christopher,

In my machine, the stir and "1" speed are not much different. And I have used the "2" and "3" speeds as well, usually later in the mixing/kneading process. For the small dough batches that I make, the higher speeds are not a problem. I also don't worry too much about frictional heat because I know that I can use colder water to compensate. However, I would rather not use water that is too cold because it can potentially shock the yeast or at least slow it down. Consequently, when I plan to use IDY early in the process, I usually disperse it in the flour as soon as I can to let the moisture in the flour help start the yeast activation process. Another option is to use slightly warmer water and less yeast.

I chose the stir speed in the new method just to keep things simple, plus I know from experience that using high mixer speeds will lead to more heat generation and increase the finished dough temperature. Since machines differ so much, this is an area where one should just experiment.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ELeight on October 27, 2006, 11:43:59 AM
Peter,

I really enjoy reading your posts.  The one thing about the above method that jumped out in my mind is the addition of cold water.  In Peter Reinhart's book "A Bread Bakers Apprentice" There is a recipe that Reinhart raves about called "Pain a l'ancienne".  The bread recipe calls for IDY, high hydration, slow short kneading and a fridge fermentation.  The result for me had a sweetness like you mentioned and also a more pronounced cream color to the crumb than I normally see.  In searching the forum I found that Marco has made reference to this technique here.
Varasano

I have to correct you on this one.

Good strong flour, with the right enzymatic activity, will produce tasteful dough after maturing in the chiller.

It is nowhere near a Natural Leaven dough, but you can obtain good results. For my experience the following is the ranking in terms of flavor:

1-Natural Leaven direct or indirect method
2-Pan a l'ancienne
3-Poolish
4-Biga or old dough (with commercial yeast)
5 Simple direct method with passage in the chiller

Ciao

I think there is lots of potential for experimentation with this.  It would be interesting to isolate out the cold water to see how much it adds to the results.  Reinhart's recipe actually calls for water that is chilled with ice cubes which doesn't seem to shock the yeast to death.  Thanks for the great posts.

Erik
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 27, 2006, 12:08:07 PM
Erik,

Thank you for your post.

I would agree with Marco's assessment as you posted it in your reply. I'd like to think that the 6-7 day cold fermentation that I used with the new method moved up the results from #5 in Marco's list to something a bit higher.

As you may have noted, in one instance I put the IDY into the bowl toward the end of the mixing/kneading process. By that time, the effects of the cold water were diminished by the heat contributed by machine friction. If I were to use warmer water to begin with, no matter at what point in the process I introduce the IDY, I might be inclined to reduce the amount of IDY a bit to compensate, so that the extent and rate of fermentation remain about the same.This is an approach that is sometimes used when one is concerned about the potentially harmful effects of cold water on the yeast.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: David on October 27, 2006, 12:29:57 PM
Jeffrey Hamelman suggests that yeast manufacturers have adjusted the yeasts to compensate for the "Shock" effect on commercial granular yeast from cold water.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 27, 2006, 12:32:26 PM
I recently used the new method described in this thread to make the dough for a Little Caesars dough clone, as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1515.msg33473.html#msg33473 (Reply 73).

The Little Caesars dough was different from the Lehmann doughs I have been experimenting with using the new method in that it was a larger quantity of dough (a bit over 19 ounces) and it had a lower hydration (a bit under 60%). Also, ADY was used instead of IDY, although that was not a material factor insofar as the basic processes were concerned. I simply added the re-hydrated ADY (re-hydrated in a small amount of the formula water, warmed to 105 degrees F) to the bowl toward the end of the mixing/kneading process, along with the rest of the ingredients (corn syrup, salt and oil). What I found with the LC dough is that I almost didn't need the dough hook. I used it a bit, but concluded that the whisk and flat beater alone would have been sufficient. In some respects, the final knead of the dough by hand before the punch and knead step takes the place of the dough hook. Also, I found that by increasing the mixer speed to the 2 speed with the flat beater further obviated the need for the dough hook.

Since I used the dough only after about 27 hours, I did not have a chance to see what the dough handling characteristics would have been after say, 6-7 days, assuming the dough would have held out that long. But, at least the new method was able to handle the 19 ounce dough batch at the roughly 60% hydration level.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on November 01, 2006, 12:55:00 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the science acknowledgment.  Normally I would have never ventured onto this thread because I don't have a KitchenAid mixer, and I don't like to knead dough in the mixer I have.  I actually got here because search results for barley turned up the massive Tom Lehmann thread, which included a recent post about this method.  A couple of things I do that I either don't highlight or sometimes even mention in my posts are sifting flour, using an autolyse-like preparation, and cultivating preferments.  The first two, sifting and autolyse, are things I only do occasionally because of the extra time needed.  When I do them though, it makes all the difference in the world.  For those out there who have problems with their kneading turning out right, make sure to use these two methods.  I said autolyse-like because what I do is actually prepare the entire batch of dough (salt, yeast, 100% water and all), mixing it just enough to be uniform in appearance, and then letting it sit on the bench for an hour, at which time I knead it by hand.

The preferment cultivation is something I'm probably going to start doing on a regular basis.  It isn't a coincidence that I've mentioned oat sprouts and powders on this forum and I use oats when cultivating a preferment.  I've always given the type of food I provide the yeast a high priority.  It's that which motivates me to use micro-nutrient and mineral rich sugars like molasses, maple syrup, raw cane sugar, and a few others I haven't mentioned, in my dough.  I've noticed that a lot of people object to adding mono- and di- saccharides (e.g. sucrose, glucose, fructose) in their dough, so I've been working on a preferment I think people of any preference will enjoy, as well as keep the nutrient level high for the Yeastie Boys (tm).  To take a page from the California milk farmer's advertising book, "a happy yeast is a productive yeast."  I'll talk more about this in a starter/culture or preferment thread.

By the way, I'm here, and I think I'll stick around for about 30 days.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2006, 01:48:28 PM
November,

I was hoping that you would reply to my posts on this subject and crossing my fingers in the meantime that I didn't say something dumb on the technical aspects. I was actually hoping that you could explain why I got such high residual sugar levels in the finished crust without adding any sugar to the original dough and whether the addition of the IDY toward the end of the mixing/kneading process had anything to do with it. I had a few leftover pizza slices the other day and the crust was still sweet and jumped out at me since I wasn't expecting it.

Actually, you were the one who prompted me to do the flour sifting since it was fresh in my mind from one of your recent posts in which you used sifted flour to make the 80%+ hydration preferment. Several others before you on the forum have used sifted flour but I had long since forgotten them and their use was not highlighted except for one member who did wonder whether sifting flour was a good thing to do.

As for the "massive" Lehmann thread, I chose to keep the majority of my Lehmann dough experiments together rather than scattering them in multiple threads throughout the forum. You are new to the forum, but I did put together a "roadmap" of the key Lehmann experiments and dough formulations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1453.msg13193.html#msg13193, which I update from time to time whenever I do something that I think others might find useful. The Lehmann dough formulation is the one I use as a guinea pig, for better or for worse, for just about everything I do.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on November 01, 2006, 02:35:04 PM
Peter,

There are several things that come to mind off the top of my head.  One is that with a higher level of hydration, yeast have less atmospheric oxygen available for cellular respiration.  Yeast, like other fungi and animals, need oxygen.  They get it from either the atmosphere, the air trapped in water, or the carbohydrates.  When they get it from the carbohydrates, more of the sugars (e.g. glucose after enzymatic action) are converted to alcohol.  When they get oxygen from the atmosphere, less of the sugars are converted to alcohol, and more are converted to acetaldehyde and acetic acid to extract more energy out of the sugar.  By hydrating the dough more completely, you force any microscopic air pockets that may form on the surface of the flour particles out of the dough.  As a result, an alcohol sweetness takes precedence.

The second thing that comes to mind is the formation of polyols.  Glucose is what's referred to as a reducing sugar, meaning it contains an aldehyde group.  Reducing sugars, through a biochemical reduction reaction (again for the yeast's extraction of oxygen), can form into polyols, or sugar alcohols.  You know these by names like sorbitol, erythritol, mannitol, etc. used as artificial sweeteners.  These obviously contribute sweetness.

Without doing an in-depth examination, I suspect that you have a little of both occurring, with perhaps more of the first.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2006, 07:56:32 AM
...what I do is actually prepare the entire batch of dough (salt, yeast, 100% water and all), mixing it just enough to be uniform in appearance, and then letting it sit on the bench for an hour, at which time I knead it by hand.

November,

When you prepare your autolyse-like dough, do you just throw everything into the bowl at one time or do you stage the ingredients and, if the latter, in what sequence?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on November 02, 2006, 08:34:18 AM
Peter,

Keep in mind that I'm not talking about my 80% hydrated dough, but my 60-66% hydrated dough.  For 60-66% dough I do the following in sequence:

1) Heat filtered water in the microwave until it reaches 167 F exactly.  (Yes, I've worked out the evaporation rate so that at precisely 110 F I know how much water is in the bowl.)
2) Add micro-nutrient rich sugar, or any other yeast enhancing additive.
3) At 110 F, I add the yeast.
4) At 100 F, I add the oil.  (It's a blend I make from 50% Extra Virgin Olive Oil and 50% Rice Bran Oil)
5) At 98 F (which happens almost instantly by adding 67 F oil), I sift in flour and salt together.
6) I stir to compete integration, dump on work surface (bench), and mold a ball.
7) I cover the dough ball with the mixing bowl turned upside down and let rest for an hour.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2006, 09:00:21 AM
November,

Thanks.

Maybe you have already answered this somewhere, but are you using ADY? If so, if you were using IDY, would you activate it the same way?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on November 02, 2006, 02:33:13 PM
Peter,

Yes, I use ADY.  I will probably never use anything but ADY for all of my life.  If I were using IDY, I'd activate it the same way except I would start at 104 F.  After all, the reason for blooming ADY is still present for IDY, you just don't need to bloom it as long.  I'm at a loss as to what I would do to compensate for the absence of ADY's higher dead yeast count.  The higher dead yeast count is the primary reason I use ADY.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Jack on November 02, 2006, 06:41:06 PM
Reinhart's recipe actually calls for water that is chilled with ice cubes which doesn't seem to shock the yeast to death. 

Erik

I'll second this one.  I was going to be away for a few days and wanted dough to use when I returned, 6 days later.  I used cold water with crushed ice in it.  I let it run in my KA for about 10 minutes before all of the ice melted, so the water temperature, which I did not check, had to be down in the 30's.  I used a pretty stock NY Lehman 61% hydration dough, with sugar.  the resulting dough was excellent.  It was maybe a tad more extensible than ususal, but not much.  Otherwise, it seemed pretty normal to me.  My outside fridge temperature is about 35F.

The yeast was mixed into the flour, which was autolysed, so the possibility that the initial yeast was shocked, but the late added yeast pulled the dough through is quite likely.

Jack 
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2006, 12:19:36 PM
November,

1) Heat filtered water in the microwave until it reaches 167 F exactly. (Yes, I've worked out the evaporation rate so that at precisely 110 F I know how much water is in the bowl.)
2) Add micro-nutrient rich sugar, or any other yeast enhancing additive.
3) At 110 F, I add the yeast.
4) At 100 F, I add the oil. (It's a blend I make from 50% Extra Virgin Olive Oil and 50% Rice Bran Oil)
5) At 98 F (which happens almost instantly by adding 67 F oil), I sift in flour and salt together.
6) I stir to compete integration, dump on work surface (bench), and mold a ball.
7) I cover the dough ball with the mixing bowl turned upside down and let rest for an hour.

November,

In many of your posts, including the one referenced above, you call for using precise temperatures. Can you tell us what instruments you use to measure your temperatures? Also, since you have mentioned on different occasions using your microwave unit to achieve desired temperatures, do you use the temperature probe that often comes with such a unit, or do you use a separate temperature measuring unit?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on November 03, 2006, 04:02:14 PM
Peter,

It's funny that you mentioned a microwave probe, because that's one feature I miss from three microwave ovens ago.  When I'm lazy and want to know the temperature without much effort, I use an IR thermometer aimed down at the center of the water with the glass container (if not already white) against a white background, like a white countertop or piece of paper.  That way the amount of infrared light that gets reflected is consistent from one reading to the next.

A great deal of the time I don't have to measure anything because I already know from working out the math what temperature the water is going to be based on microwave wattage and time.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: mivler on November 15, 2006, 01:20:00 PM
I have been waiting to see how much success others have had with this new method. I don't have a sifter and I wanted to see if it was worth getting one. Has anyone else try this method?

Thanks,

Michael
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2006, 10:33:12 AM
Following up on my earlier work on the new KitchenAid dough making method described in this thread, I decided to try to extend the useful dough life of a Lehmann NY style dough beyond the 6- and 7-day life spans that I previously found worked very well (for details, see Reply 2). So, just before I left on vacation for the long Thanksgiving weekend, I started a Lehmann NY style dough and put it into a container to remain in the refrigerator until I returned home again. The dough formulation I used was as follows (from the Lehmann dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html):

KASL Flour (100%):          194.67 g  |  6.87 oz | 0.43 lbs
Water (65%):                   126.53 g  |  4.46 oz | 0.28 lbs
Oil (1%):                           1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                    3.41 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):                     0.49 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.16 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Sugar (0%):                      0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (168%):                   327.04 g | 11.54 oz | 0.72 lbs | TF = 0.102

To prepare the dough, I used essentially the same steps as described in the opening posts in this thread. About the only change from the basic procedure described in those posts is that I decided not to lubricate the whisk, flat beater and the C-hook with oil before using. I have always been a bit skeptical of the efficacy of this step (Alton Brown notwithstanding), that I decided to forego it this time to see if I could detect a difference. I could not, so I will most likely skip that step in the future.

Because I was trying to extend the dough’s useful life, I used cold bottled water right out of my refrigerator. It was around 47 degrees F. As a consequence of the use of the cold water, and also because of the low frictional heat produced by the mixer during the dough mixing/kneading steps, the finished dough temperature was around 67 degrees F. For hydration, I elected to use 65%, which, as previously described, can be accommodated with ease in the new dough making method. For the thickness factor, I used 0.102, in part to compensate for the slight amount of dough that unavoidably ends up sticking to the wires that make up the whisk and cannot be easily removed. In retrospect, a thickness factor of 0.105 would have probably been a better figure to use. The yeast (about 1/6 t. of IDY) was added to the dough toward the end of the dough making process, consistent with a classical autolyse.

Upon return home from my vacation, about 6 days after I made the dough and put it into the refrigerator, I saw that the dough ball in the container had spread slightly from its original round shape but otherwise looked perfectly normal and exhibited no signs of overfermentation whatsoever. It looked pretty much as I had left it before going on vacation. Consequently, I decided to shoot for 10 days. In the interim, I monitored the progress of the dough fairly closely because I did not want to lose the dough at this point due to overfermentation. The dough gradually spread some more, and took on a slightly grayish hue, but still felt normal to the touch and, but for the grayish tinge, looked quite normal.

After 10 days--10 days and 4 1/2 hours, to be exact--I decided to make a pizza using the dough. In preparation for doing so, I allowed the dough (covered with a sheet of plastic wrap) to warm up on the bench at room temperature for about 2 hours. During that time, there was little that changed with the dough beyond becoming a bit warmer. Somewhat to my surprise, the dough handled exceptionally well. I was expecting the dough to be so extensible as to make handing it a challenge. Instead, it was moderately extensible with a uniform texture (no striations or light and dark areas when held up to the light) and no thin spots, and it reacted well to my efforts to stretch it out to the final 12” size (or even more, had I wanted). In retrospect, based on the favorable handling characteristics of the dough, I believe I could have gotten at least one more day, and possibly two, out of the dough. That would place the outer limit, for now, at around 11-12 days.

The pizza was dressed in a standard pepperoni style and baked on a pizza stone that had been placed at the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza baked on the stone for 5 minutes, whereupon it was removed, as is my usual practice, to the top oven rack position for another minute. I did not have to use the broiler to get added crust coloration, as I have done many times before with the Lehmann doughs.

The photos below show the dough ball just prior to shaping, and the finished pizza. The finished pizza exhibited reasonable oven spring and the crust had a few large bubbles and a profusion of very small bubbles at the rim. I had not expected the large bubbles inasmuch as the dough had not risen much during its entire time of fermentation. The texture of the crumb was soft and chewy and bore a resemblance to crusts that I have made before using natural preferments. The crust had normal coloration and, as with my more recent efforts, was noticeably sweet. This continues to amaze me since I added no sugar to the dough. After 10 days, I would have expected almost no crust coloration and low, almost undetectable residual sugar levels (on the palate). These characteristics, along with the normal byproducts of fermentation, helped contribute to a finished crust that I found to be very flavorful.

I haven’t thought out fully the significance of a 10-day dough. I wonder, for example, if one could scale up the dough formulation for a commercial operation and make dough balls every 10 days (or some intermediate period), or make them every day and use the oldest (and, arguably, best) ones on a daily basis. In a home setting, it might mean not having to rush to use up dough balls for fear that they will quickly overferment and become unusable. For chronic pizzaholics, a plentiful supply of dough balls can sustain one’s habit for some time between dough making sessions.

I plan to continue to experiment with the new dough making process to determine its limitations. Among future tests, I plan to use more yeast, a larger dough batch size, and also try a natural preferment version.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on December 01, 2006, 12:31:02 PM
Peter,

Where can we find out more about this topic?


"Good strong flour, with the right enzymatic activity, will produce tasteful dough after maturing in the chiller.

It is nowhere near a Natural Leaven dough, but you can obtain good results. For my experience the following is the ranking in terms of flavor:

1-Natural Leaven direct or indirect method
2-Pan a l'ancienne
3-Poolish
4-Biga or old dough (with commercial yeast)
5 Simple direct method with passage in the chiller

Ciao"


The #1 Natural Leaven direct or indirect method is the one I am interested in.

Please lead us to an area that can educate us about this flavor enhancing technique.

Thank-you for the effort

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2006, 01:01:31 PM
Michael,

The quote you provided came from a post by member pizzanapoletana (Marco). So, Marco may be the best one to steer you to reading material that will further enlighten you on the direct vs. indirect methods of achieving better crust flavors. In the meantime, however, you may find the following post of interest: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,861.msg8679.html#msg8679. This is an early post by Marco shortly after he became a member of the forum. You will also learn an awful lot by reading all of Marco's posts, as I have done on several occasions.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on December 01, 2006, 03:18:59 PM
Peter,

Did he ever write his book?

MWTC
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2006, 04:12:25 PM
Michael,

According to the P.S. in the following post, not yet: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg32600/topicseen.html#msg32600 (Reply 413).

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on December 01, 2006, 04:31:01 PM
Thanks Peter.

The journey continues!!!! ;D

MWTC
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2006, 09:00:30 AM
Continuing my experiments with the new KitchenAid dough making method described earlier in this thread, I decided recently to use the method to make enough dough for a 16” pizza. Previously, my efforts were more or less confined, as a matter of convenience, to a 12” test size. In addition to increasing the dough weight, I also decided to increase the amount of instant dry yeast I normally use, from 0.25% to 0.60%. This was done since I intended to cold ferment the dough for some time and I wanted to increase the chances of getting a good oven spring. In this case, the duration of the cold ferment turned out to be 12 days, 4 1/2 hours.

The dough formulation I used, courtesy of the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, was as follows:

KASL High-GlutenFlour (100%):    362.29 g  |  12.78 oz | 0.8 lbs
Water (65%):                                235.49 g  |  8.31 oz | 0.52 lbs
Oil (1%):                                        3.62 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                                 6.34 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.14 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
IDY (0.6%):                                    2.17 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.72 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Sugar (0%):                                   0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (168.35%):                           609.91 g | 21.51* oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.107
                                                     * Final dough ball weight = 21.10 oz.

It will be noted from the above that I used a thickness factor of 0.107. This value was selected to compensate for the “losses” of dough in the bowl  (“bowl residue”) due to ingredients sticking to containers (including the mixer bowl), implements (mainly the whisk), and so forth. When the dough was done, I used my digital scale to weigh out 21.10 ounces, which is consistent with the 0.105 thickness factor that I frequently use. The small amount of excess dough was discarded. As in past experiments, the hydration used was 65%.

In making the dough, I used a water temperature of 44.1 degrees F, which was the temperature of the water when I took it out of my refrigerator. Using that water temperature with the new dough making method, the finished dough temperature was 65.2 degrees F. Because of the somewhat larger dough batch size, the total elapsed time to make the dough for the 16” size, from beginning to end--when it went into the refrigerator--was 13-14 minutes, or about a couple of minutes longer than it has taken me to make dough for the standard 12” test size. In all respects, the method I used to make the dough was the same as for the immediately preceding experiment.

Once the dough was completed, I lightly oiled it and placed it in a metal container with a tight-fitting lid. The container then went into the refrigerator. Off and on I would check in on the dough to see how it was evolving. On about the second or third day in the refrigerator, I noticed that the color of the dough was darkening slightly, with what appeared to be small dark specks that gave a light gray tinge to the dough. The dough remained that way for the next nine or ten days, increasing a bit each day. Over that time, the dough spread from a round ball shape to a disk shape. The first two photos show the dough at the 2-3-day stage and at Day 12 plus 4 1/2 hours, when I removed the dough from the refrigerator. As will be noted from the second photo, the dough was quite a bit darker than when it started. And a bubble started to rise out of the dough. However, interestingly, the bottom of the dough, which I had a good chance to observe when I decided to use the dough, was normal looking, with a nice yellowish-tan color. I decided that the gray side would become the bottom of the pizza. (From what I have read, the specks may have been due to either oxidation of iron included in the enrichments to the flour or due to agglomeration of yeast particles.)

When time came to form the dough into the skin--after the dough was allowed to sit on the counter for about 2 hours at room temperature--it was quite extensible. However, it was not much more extensible than typical high-hydration Lehmann NY style doughs I have made at 3 days. I had no problem stretching the dough out to 16”. To do this, I lifted the dough and stretched it out as far as I could without the dough getting away from itself, and finished the stretching on the counter.

Because my pizza stone cannot accommodate a 16” pizza, I decided to use the pizza screen and stone combination that I have frequently used in the past. In preparation for using the screen/stone combination, I had preheated the oven and the stone for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F. The 16” skin was placed on my 16” screen, dressed (in a standard pepperoni style), and baked on the second oven rack position (from the top) for about 6 minutes—just as the rim started to expand in volume and was beginning to turn brown. I then moved the pizza off of the screen onto the stone (on the lowest oven rack), where it baked for an additional minute or so in order to get improved bottom crust browning. I finished by bringing the pizza back up to the second from the top oven rack position for about an additional minute in order to get increased top crust browning. I found no need to use the broiler element to get more browning, as I have done many times before in the past.

The last two photos below show the finished pizza. It was first rate in all respects. The most interesting part of the pizza was the crust. It was chewy but not bread-like. In fact, the entire crust, including the rim, had a texture that was reminiscent of those I have made using natural preferments. There was a “stretch” and springiness to the crumb, and it had tooth. The oven spring was surprisingly good, and, although not entirely evident from the photos, there were small blisters over the entire rim, along with a few bubbles. I attribute the bubbles and blisters to the late stage of fermentation. I also thought the crust color was very good, given the fact that I did not use any sugar in the dough and I did not use the broiler element to contribute to the crust color. I did not detect the same level of sweetness in the crust that I achieved in earlier experiments, but the crust was quite flavorful nonetheless, with a hint of sourness that was not objectionable in any way.

As a result of my recent experiments, I think I am starting to understand better what is happening. I think the use of sifted flour, the whisk element, etc., contribute to better dough handling qualities. But the longevity of the dough is most likely attributable to using cold water and adding the yeast (IDY) to the dough at the end of the dough making process, where it has less chance to bud and multiply, thereby allowing more of the sugars extracted from the starches or otherwise formed in the dough during fermentation to remain in the dough and be available as residual sugars at the time of use (several days later) to contribute to crust browning and sweetness in the finished crust. If this analysis is correct, then it occurs to me that using active dry yeast (ADY) instead of IDY and using the ADY dry, as member petesopizza suggested in another thread, may increase the useful life of the dough beyond 12 days. That is an experiment I intend to try, if for no reason other than to satisfy my curiosity.

A few additional thoughts. I think that it may be a good idea to use higher yeast levels, as I did, if one wants to go out to 10 or more days with the dough before using and to improve the oven spring. It’s even possible that the dough will not perform as well in the first few days, because of insufficient biochemical activity in the dough, or what I have come to refer to as “suspended animation”. This is just a speculation on my part since I haven’t tried a dough with such a short life under its belt using the new dough making method.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 23, 2006, 11:08:39 AM
For my most recent experiment on this thread, I decided to modify the mixing and kneading regimen that I have been using to date. This time I decided to dispense with my KitchenAid stand mixer and instead to use a combination of an electric hand mixer, a bowl-type sieve (to sift the flour), a sturdy wooden spoon, and hand kneading. What I most wanted to see is if this combination could produce a dough with exceptional handling qualities—better than using a KitchenAid stand mixer. If successful, this would mean that one could make a high quality dough without needing a KitchenAid or equivalent stand mixer—only an electric hand mixer, a sieve, and a sturdy spoon—and a bowl, of course.

To conduct the experiment, I settled on the following dough formulation (a modification of the basic Lehmann dough formulation):

KASL Flour (100%):                 277.71 g  |  9.8 oz | 0.61 lbs
Water (65%):                         180.51 g  |  6.37 oz | 0.4 lbs
Salt (1.75%):                          4.86 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):                           1.11 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Oil (1%):                                 2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total (168.15%):                    466.96 g | 16.47* oz | 1.03 lbs | TF = 0.107
                                              * Actual dough weight = 16.25 oz.

As will be noted from the above formulation, I elected to use a hydration of 65%. This is in line with my recent experiments, which have been successful with that hydration percent. I increased the yeast (IDY) a bit to compensate for the onset of winter in Texas (which means a cooler kitchen), and I used a thickness factor of 0.107 to compensate for minor dough losses during the course of mixing and kneading. Also as a concession to the arrival of winter, I warmed the water to about 72 degrees F before using. Using this water temperature, the finished dough temperature of the dough as it went into the refrigerator was about 74 degrees F. The dough produced using the above formulation was for one 14” pizza.

The following describes the steps used to make the dough:

1) Place the water in a bowl, add the salt, and stir for about 30-45 seconds to completely dissolve. (Note: If sugar is used, it also can be dissolved in the water after dissolving the salt, or separately in warm water, if desired. If ADY is substituted for the IDY, it can be rehydrated in a small amount of the formula water, for about 10 minutes, at around 100 degrees F, and be added to the rest of the formula water, which will be cooler.)

2) Stir the yeast (IDY) in with the flour and place within a bowl-type sieve (see first photo below). The openings in the sieve should be as small as possible but big enough to allow the yeast particles to pass through. In lieu of a sieve, a manually operated flour sifter can also be used.

3) Sift a small amount of the flour/yeast mixture into the bowl and, using an electric hand mixer (see second photo) operating at its lowest speed, incorporate the flour/yeast mixture into the water. Continue to do this in an alternating manner until the hand mixer bogs down and can no longer easily mix the ingredients. Once this occurs, lift the beaters out of the dough and, with the beaters spinning, spin any sticking dough ingredients off of the beaters into the bowl. Set the mixer aside. Its job is done.

4) Continue to sift the flour/yeast mixture into the bowl intermittently and use a sturdy spoon (I use a large wooden spoon) to incorporate. When about 2/3-3/4 of the flour/yeast mixture has been sifted into the bowl and combined, add the oil and incorporate using the spoon. If needed, the hands can also be used.

5) Remove the contents of the bowl and put on a work surface. Continue to sift small amounts of the flour/yeast mixture on top of the dough and incorporate by kneading. Although not necessary, if the dough is too wet and hard to handle without it sticking to the fingers all over the place, a bench knife can be used to turn and fold the dough onto itself. Continue the process until all of the flour/yeast mixture has been sifted onto the dough and the dough takes on a generally smooth, soft and elastic feel with no tears on the outer surface. There may be some small bumps but they will smooth out and disappear once the dough starts to ferment. The total knead time will be about 4 minutes for the batch size involved. At the end of the 4-minute period, the dough should be fully hydrated and have a slightly tacky outer exterior. Unless the dough is obviously too wet and really sticking to the fingers, the temptation to add more flour should be resisted.

6) Form the dough into a ball and knead for about another minute using the punch and fold technique. For those unfamiliar with this technique, it is shown in Images 4a-4c at http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm. I do the kneading gently and for only a minute. It may well be that this step is unnecessary, especially for the small amount of dough involved, but it is fun and easy to do. When done, reshape the dough into a round ball, coat with a bit of oil, place into a container (see the third photo below), cover the container, and place it in the refrigerator.

Originally, I had planned to use the dough within about 2-3 days, but because of Christmas chores that period was extended to over 4 days. While in the refrigerator, the dough ball gradually flattened out, making it difficult to gauge the extent of its rise. Whatever dough expansion there was, it was quite modest. The dough was brought out of the refrigerator to room temperature and allowed to warm up for about 2-3 hours before using.

Overall, the dough was of exceptional quality. It was a bit on the extensible side, which was not particularly surprising after four days, but it was easy to handle and shape and stretch out to 14”. As I worked the dough, I could see that it had a uniform thickness and was completely smooth without any noticeable variations, layering or imperfections as I held the stretched out dough to the light and continued to stretch it even further. I could easily have stretched it out to 18” or better. From a handling standpoint, it was as good a dough as I have made, irrespective of machine or process although in the past I have achieved a similar quality of dough with exceptional handling qualities when I used a natural preferment, with a good example being the Raquel dough.

The results achieved suggest that a key element to achieving superior dough handling qualities is fully hydrating the flour. In this case, I would credit sifting the flour and using the electric hand mixer. A dough hook, and especially a C-hook as comes with my KitchenAid mixer, can’t do as good a job. So, for those who don’t have a KitchenAid or equivalent mixer but have a sieve and an electric hand mixer, they can make modest batches of high quality dough using only those simple tools along with hand kneading. Of course, for large dough batches, a machine may be the only logical option. While I didn’t use rest period during the preparation of the dough, doing so will facilitate making larger batches of dough, even with a high-gluten flour, and especially at a high hydration rate.

The final two photos show the finished pizza. The pizza (my standard pepperoni “test” pizza) had excellent flavor, although the cheeses started to brown before I had achieved the desired crust coloration. I used the Frigo brand of low moisture, part skim mozzarella cheese which, I know from past experience, browns quickly and can burn quite easily within a fairly short period of time. Also, I think a shorter fermentation period would have resulted in better crust coloration because of a higher residual sugar content. Although not readily apparent in the photos, there was a fair degree of blistering on the rim of the pizza. This was evidence that the dough was starting to overferment. I don’t mind blistering so that was not an issue for me.

As for the bake process itself, the pizza was baked on a 14” pizza screen for about 6 minutes at the second-from-the-top oven rack position and then moved onto a pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) that had been preheated for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F, to get increased bottom crust browning. After about a minute on the stone, the pizza was returned to its original position for about another minute. The broiler element was not needed or used.

Peter

EDIT (6/14/16): For a Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative Woodstone link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090215125027/http://www.woodstone-corp.com/cooking_naples_style_dough.htm

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: enchant on December 31, 2006, 10:45:38 AM
Peter,

I've had some nasty tendinitis in my elbow that's kept me from doing pretty much anything, including kneading dough, so I've been using store-bought dough for a few months.  But I've been dying to try this new method.  My elbow has finally healed, and I took a shot at making this dough this morning.

I won't know how it turns out for a week, but I had a problem during the preparation.  I used the original method you outlined in post #2 of this thread.  After mixing with the whisk attachment until I started hearing that groan that you mentioned, I switched over to the flat beater.  I kept adding flour until it started to pull away from the bowl.

This is where I don't understand what's supposed to happen.  At this point, the bulk of the dough is stuck to the beater and is simply going for a ride around inside the bowl.  No kneeding is taking place.  I added the IDY and let it run for 30 seconds.  When I turned the mixer off, the IDY was still in a pile on top of the dough.  I can knock the dough off the beater, but as soon as I start it up, it just sticks to the beater again and doesn't make any progress.  So I took the flat beater off, scraped off the dough and switched to the C-hook at that point.  The dough still wants to hang onto the beater, but with the dough hook, I'm able to keep knocking it off with the spatula.

A single 12" pizza won't be enough for my wife and I, so I made two batches - one with KASL and one with GMAT as a little shootout.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2006, 12:26:38 PM
Pat,

I followed the steps as I recited them in Reply 1 of this thread. Since the same recipe with different machines and even with the same model can produce slightly different results, it may be necessary to tweak the processing steps. For example, if the dough is sticking completely to the flat beater and you want to add the IDY to the dough, I would scrape the dough off of the beater and sprinkle the IDY uniformly over the dough. The objective is to disperse the IDY as completely and uniformly as possible within the dough--not have it sit in a single mass and be incorporated as such. In my case, after I added the IDY and kneaded it into the dough, I added the remaining flour, along with the salt and oil and a bit more water, the latter of which added a bit more liquidity to the dough to allow everything to better incorporate without completely adhering to the flat beater. I used the stir speed only so that everything came together slowly and didn't gather around the flat beater and stick there. The final kneading was done using the C-hook. I have found that one of the advantages of using some hand kneading is that it makes up for a lot of the shortcomings of the machine itself.

More recently, I have been experimenting with eliminating use of the C-hook altogether and substituting hand kneading, which I think does a better job than the C-hook. I have also been experimenting with using a higher speed (around 2) with the whisk attachment to see if that improves the hydration of the flour without overly developing the gluten or adding too much heat to the dough. This means not adding the flour too fast and trying to keep the mixture batter-like for as long as possible. I am still experimenting with this approach, but early indications are that the combination of using sifted flour, the whisk at higher speed, the flat beater, and hand kneading is a workable method that produces a very good dough at the desired finished dough temperature. Using an electric hand mixer in lieu of the KitchenAid mixer is also a very good method for those who do not have a stand mixer but have an electric hand mixer.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: enchant on December 31, 2006, 05:02:05 PM
I have a relatively old and cheap KA mixer.  It's the 4.5 quart model, and I don't have a stir speed.  Couple interesting side-stories...

I found a great way to add the flour.  I was having very mixed success adding it by tossing it to the center of the whisk.  My aim was pretty inconsistent and I'd wind up with a good amount of flour on the bowl walls.  I accidentally stumbled on this method.  I take a spoonful of flour and put it near the whisk.  As it orbits by and bumps the spoon, a little flour falls off.  On each orbit, it knocks a little more flour right near the center of the bowl.  So rather than tossing in a complete tablespoon of flour (with questionable success), I drop about a quarter teaspoon every time the whisk orbits by.

On this other issue, I'm not quite so proud.  I was nearing the end of the kneading cycle.  All the ingredients were added and I was just getting in that last minute or so to make sure everything was incorporated together.  To make sure the dough doesn't hang onto the dough hook, I use a flexible spatula and put a little pressure on the spinning dough.  This keeps it moving, relative to the hook.

But I lost my grip on the spatula and it started flying around the inside of the bowl, spinning with the dough hook.  I immediately shot my hand to the speed control and turned it off.  But as I turned it off, my hand slipped past the control, and as I quickly pulled my hand back, I inadvertently turned the mixer back on.

To speed 10.

It was quite a scene for a few seconds until I could get the mixer back off.  With the spatula spinning around inside the bowl at the speed of light, it was flinging dough around the kitchen at an alarming rate.  Thankfully, my wife was out walking the dogs at the time, and I was able to get all the obvious pieces off the cabinets and ceiling.  But I've got a feeling that sooner or later I'm going to hear: "What's this yellow stuff on the curtains??"
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2006, 06:52:46 PM
Pat,

When I first cobbled together all of the ideas to come up with the new method, I wanted someting that people, and especially beginners, could use with confidence and get good results and without having to bust their budgets to get the best mixers. Simplicity was one of the reasons I specified using only the stir speed. Since then, after seeing that an electric hand mixer does a nice job hydrating the flour, and at a higher rpm, even at low speed, than the stir speed on my KitchenAid stand mixer, I concluded that using the whisk of my KitchenAid stand mixer at higher speeds is also a viable option so long as the higher speeds are not too high and/or not used too long. I want better hydration but not excessive gluten development or excessive heat applied to the dough. Using the various methods and techniques I have described, I have not had a single bad dough. They have all been very good. I almost can't find a good reason to return to my old methods using a C-hook. Maybe if I am making large dough batches, but I would still use all of the steps leading up to the C-hook and try to minimize use of the C-hook as much as possible.

I might add that one way to compensate for losses in the bowl ("bowl residue") is to use the Lehmann dough calculator with a higher thickness factor. For example, using the whisk/flat beater method, I use something like 0.1075 in the Lehmann tool instead of 0.105. That way, I don't worry that a bit of dough sticks to the whisk or flat beater or that some flour sticks to the side of the bowl or that some water sticks to the measuring cup. The finished dough weight is about the same as if I used the 0.105 thickness factor and had no bowl residue.

I think once you are able to make a few good doughs you will see the merits of the new method, without having a good part of your results decorating your kitchen.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2007, 10:22:46 AM
As part of the series of experiments I have been conducting on the new KitchenAid dough making method, my latest involved using non-rehydrated active dry yeast (ADY). As I previously noted, the idea of using non-rehydrated ADY was not a new one with me, having been used by giotto for some time and also by member petesopizza, as noted in this very interesting and intriguing thread:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3587.msg30225.html#msg30225.

In my case, I followed petesopizza’s suggestions and added the ADY to the dough at the end of the dough making process, just as I did not long ago with instant dry yeast (IDY), with very good results. The dough formulation I elected to use was this version of the basic Lehmann dough formulation (for a 14” pizza):

KASL Flour (100%):                 279.37 g  |  9.85 oz | 0.62 lbs
Water (65%):                         181.59 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
Salt (1.75%):                          4.89 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.88 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
ADY (0.375%):                        1.05 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Oil (1%):                                 2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total (168.125%):                  469.69 g | 16.57* oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.107625
                                               * Actual dough weight = 16.10 oz.

To compensate for the anticipated small dough losses using the new method, I increased the thickness factor I have been using, 0.105, by 2.5%, to 0.107625. The finished dough weight was just shy of the quantity that I would have achieved had I used the 0.105 thickness factor and had no losses.

I had originally intended to add the salt to the dough at the end of the dough making process, as I have been doing with all of the experiments on this thread. However, without thinking and purely out of habit, I dissolved the salt in with the water at the beginning. It wasn’t until the dough was almost done that I caught my error. I decided to proceed with the experiment anyway since dissolving the salt in water has been pretty much a part of my standard operating procedure when making the basic Lehmann dough. As noted below, there were a few other changes to the basic method I have been using.

To make the dough, I first sifted the flour into an auxiliary bowl, using a bowl-shaped sieve (shown in an earlier post). I then added the salt to the water in my KitchenAid mixer bowl and stirred the mixture until the salt was completely dissolved, about 30-45 seconds. The sifted flour was gradually added to the mixer bowl, a few tablespoons at a time, while the whisk attachment was attached and operating at speed 2. This was a higher speed than I had been using but I wanted to see whether the hydration of the flour would be improved by using the higher speed. In retrospect, it appears that the higher speed does help with the hydration, but it is not clear whether the degree of hydration is materially better than when using the stir speed. Although I was using formula water that was cold, I also did not want to introduce much heat to the dough because of the higher mixer operating speed. That turned out not to be a problem, and the finished dough temperature was well within range.

After I had added about 1/3 of the flour, I lowered the mixer speed to stir and continued to gradually add the flour until the whisk attachment started to bog down. At that point, after removing the dough from the whisk, I switched to the flat beater attachment and added the remaining flour, along with the oil. These were kneaded for about 3 minutes at stir speed. I then added the non-rehydrated ADY and kneaded that in also, for about 1 minute. The dough was nice and smooth—so much so that I found no need to use the C-hook at all. I simply did a gentle minute’s worth of the Woodstone punch and fold, reshaped the dough into a ball, oiled it, and placed it in a (covered) Rubbermaid plastic container. The total elapsed time to make the dough was about 10-11 minutes. The finished dough temperature was about 65 degrees F. (The formula water I used was about 43 degrees F.) Once done, the dough went immediately into the refrigerator.

I had anticipated that I would get a long life out of the dough. However, after about the 5th day, I could see that the dough was expanding faster than some of my previous doughs at the same stage. So, I decided to use the dough the next day. By that time, the dough was starting to produce some medium-sized gas bubbles at the surface of the dough, which was an indication that the dough was about to go into decline. I also noticed a lot of small bubbles at the sides and bottom of the dough, which were visible through the plastic container. In the past, I have found that the appearance of such bubbles in great numbers in the dough is a fairly reliable signal to use the dough. In fact, I now tend not to do anything with the dough until that stage is reached. I think many of my best crusts are produced by waiting for the “all clear” signal.

When I finally decided to use the dough, after about 6 1/3 days (including about 2 hours at room temperature on the bench), it was quite extensible (always a challenge with a 65% hydration dough) but it was easily shaped and stretched into a 14” round. There were many bubbles in the dough. The round was placed on a 14” pizza screen and dressed in my standard pepperoni “test” style. The pizza was baked at the second-from-the-top oven rack position for about 5 minutes and, as the rim expanded and started to turn brown and the cheeses were bubbling, I moved the pizza onto my pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) that had been preheated for about an hour at about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about a minute or two, until the bottom crust browned up, and was then moved back to its original oven position and baked for a final minute. I did not use the broiler.

The photos below show the finished pizza. It was a very fine pizza. The crust was chewy and nicely colored, with a nicely textured crumb, with some “tooth” to it, and it exhibited good oven spring with many large bubbles and small blisters. The crust was very flavorful and, like many of my past experiments, was sweet. It wasn’t as sweet as my prior efforts using the new method but noticeable nonetheless, especially since I had added no sugar to the dough.

Since I deviated from my original plan, I intend to repeat the experiment but add the salt at the end of the dough making process rather than at the beginning. I’d like to see if the late addition of the salt will extend the useful life of the dough. But, whatever happens, I am very pleased with the new KitchenAid dough making method in general. I am hard pressed, in fact, to find a good reason to return to the old methods I have used before for the NY and similar styles, at least for the dough batch sizes I typically make.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Boy Hits Car on January 08, 2007, 10:22:20 AM
I tried Peter's new technique and have to say that my first attempt was excellent.  It was definitely one of the best crusts I have been able to make.  The taste and texture was really nice and the crust browned very nicely.  What really impressed me was how well the dough came together when you follow all the steps Peter outlined.  I usually have to knead my doughs with the dough hook for a few minutes then continue kneading by hand for another few minutes before the dough is ready for the fridge.  The Kitchen aid mixer just doesn't do a good job at kneading.  With this technique I only kneaded the dough for about a minute with the dough hook then did the punch and roll as the Peter indicated.  I think Peter is on to something with this one.

I cold fermented the dough for exactly 5 days.  During the first 4.5 days the dough looked normal, similar to my previous doughs, but after about 4.5 days it had 2 bubbles on it similar to Peter's second picture on post #29 on this thread.  Despite the bubbles, the crust was excellent as I previously mentioned.

My question is:  Are the bubbles an indication of something gone wrong or an indication that the dough is about to expire?  I've often noticed people say on this forum that they could tell the dough could have lasted another day or two, or that they could tell it was about to expire.  Could someone elaborate what the indicators are that point to a dough about to expire?  I'm just trying to figure out how long I could have kept this dough.

Below is the formula I used.  I used .35% IDY because of the cold weather in Philly this time of the year.  The temp of the dough was higher than expected when it entered the fridge; it was at 80 degrees.  I guess I have to use colder water.  I suspect this might have limited the length of the dough life.  I want to try a 7 day dough and any input would be appreciated.

Flour (100%):         268.23 g  |  9.46 oz | 0.59 lbs
Water (65%):         174.35 g  |  6.15 oz | 0.38 lbs
Oil (1%):                 2.68 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):          4.69 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.98 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
IDY (.35%):             0.94 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Total (168.1%):       450.89 g | 15.9 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.09

Mike
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on January 08, 2007, 10:23:17 AM
Pete,

Would you recommend a scale that will read 1.09 gram. I have a nice digital scale for the bigger quantaties but won't read something that small.

Thanks,

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Jack on January 08, 2007, 11:32:57 AM
Peter,

I also have adopted your wisk KA method with some slight modifications.  I start out with the water, and all other non-flour ingredients, including the oil (if I use any), in the bowl.  I slowly add flour until the wisk bogs down, then switch to the dough hook and add the remaining flour slowly.   

By adding the oil to the water initially, my KA does not “flounder” in it’s kneading late in the process when I used to add the oil, but kneads the dough smoothly throughout the process.  With several days in the fridge, I've never had an issue with my ADY due to the oil or salt in the water.

The results have been amazing.

Thanks for your research.

Jack
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: chiguy on January 08, 2007, 11:41:49 AM
 boyhitscar,
 A couple of reasons why bubbles form on the dough. One is that the dough has not been kneaded long enough to develop a proper gluten structure. The other is that the dough has had too much fermentation time. With a finished dough temperature of about 80F the fourth day is where you will usually see changes in a dough.
 I believe Peter has reccommended much lower finished dough temperutres when holding in the refridgerator for more than 3 days.
 A retarded has a window at which the dough performs the best, in both flavor and handeling charcteristics. When you use the dough at the end of the spectrum you are probably not getting the best performing dough. Oh by the way, i wanted to thank you for the Lehmann calculator.  Chiguy 
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 12:53:14 PM
Would you recommend a scale that will read 1.09 gram. I have a nice digital scale for the bigger quantaties but won't read something that small.

MWTC,

I have a My Weigh 300-Z scale that I described at Reply 20 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,903.msg29072.html#msg29072. It will not weigh 1.09 g. exactly but it will weigh 1.10 g. When I bought the unit, I also got a calibrating weight in case I ever need it.

I have found that the scale comes in most handy when I want to weigh a small amount of a substance for which weight-to-volume conversion data is not readily or conveniently available. But, for the most part, I have found that standard weight-to-volume conversion data, even if it comes from or is derived from packaging information (that may not be 100% precise), is usually good enough for my purposes. The scale is a neat thing to have handy, and for me to spend around $25 for it (including shipping and insurance) so that I can do my experiments, it is worth having. Otherwise, I think I could live without it if I had to since I already have a pretty good list of conversion data for pizza related ingredients.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 01:53:42 PM
Mike,

Thank you very much for the feedback. It is very helpful to have it.

I personally like to keep my dough as long as possible before using, because I think it produces the best flavors in the crust without adversely affecting other aspects such as oven spring or texture or color. Judging from this post by scott r, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2779.msg30482.html#msg30482 (Reply 8), I believe he likes to do the same thing.

The presence of bubbles in a dough doesn’t necessarily mean that something is wrong, at least not in a fatal sense, but it may mean that too much yeast was used or that the dough management (especially temperature control) was less than optimal. Bubbles can certainly appear when a dough is overfermented or on the verge of overfermentation. With a properly made cold fermented dough using the new method, I estimate that there is about another day, or possibly two days, left of useful life after the bubbles first appear. When the bubbles first start to protrude from the surface of the cold fermented doughs I make, I press down on the dough to see if it is still firm. If it is, I figure there is about another day or so left to use it to be on the safe side, so I don’t worry. If the dough were soft and pillowy and flabby and appearing like it wants to deflate, then I would want to use it as soon as possible. I also look for the appearance of a profusion of small bubbles at the sides and bottom of the dough. To see these of course requires that the container that holds the dough be transparent or translucent.

I have also found that the degree of spreading and flattening of the dough while in the refrigerator is a pretty good indicator or marker of the potential useful life of the dough. I put the dough into the container shaped into a ball. I then watch to see how quickly it spreads. If the dough doesn’t spread and flatten quickly, it is likely that the dough will have a good long useful life, typically six days or more. With the right formulation and processing, it can be 10-12 days. If the dough ball flattens and spread quickly, whether it is because of temperature factors or other factors, as chiguy has noted, then its useful life is likely to be shorter, perhaps in the 4-5 day range. Each dough has its own mind, so you have to rely on experience to a great degree.

If prolongation of the usable life of the dough is an objective, then there are ways of achieving that objective. I still have a few more experiments to perform with the new dough making method, so there is still more to be learned on this particular aspect, but I would say that using cold water, along with small quantities of yeast, will help achieve that objective. I would also add the salt and yeast toward the end of the dough making process rather than at the beginning. I also often use a metal container to store the dough while it is in the refrigerator in order to cool the dough down a bit faster. If you really want to be anal about it, you can even pre-cool the metal container in the refrigerator for a while before putting the dough into it.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: scott r on January 08, 2007, 01:59:52 PM
I think this is one of the main reasons why I am always so disappointed with the "famous" pizzerias.  At home we have the luxury of being able to use the dough right at it's peak, while commercial pizzerias need to use their dough from the same mix over a period of hours, or sometimes even days if they are retarding.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 02:12:56 PM
Jack,

Thank you also for your feedback. I really appreciate it.

When I first started my experimentation with the new method, I was attempting to incorporate as many aspects of the classic Calvel autolyse process as possible. About the only autolyse feature I did not use was the rest period, mainly because I wanted to be able to make the dough as quickly as possible, and I also didn't want the dough to warm up much during a typical 5-30 minute autolyse rest period (depending on whose advice one follows). As best I have been able to determine, the classical autolyse was not used with bread doughs using oil. However, my practice has been to add the oil at the end of the dough making process in order not to interfere with the hydration of the flour. This is a technique that is espoused by Tom Lehmann. I have often wondered about it, and especially so after seeing that November doesn't seem to be following that technique. That leads me to believe that November has good reason for not isolating the oil in his dough making process. It also occurs to me that if prolonging the useful life of a dough is an objective, maybe it is a good idea to add the oil at the beginning, just as you did, rather than the end. This is something I will have to test out sometime.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Boy Hits Car on January 08, 2007, 02:44:43 PM
Thanks for your help everyone.  I think I got it now.  Peter, do you think .35% for IDY was too much for 40 degree weather?  I keep my house temp pretty cool in the winter; around 62 degrees or so.

Chiguy, you are welcome for the lehmann calculator.  I'm hoping to work on a deep dish calculator tool with Peter soon.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 03:12:40 PM
Mike,

I don't think that the amount of yeast you used was too much. In fact, I often recommend that the amount of yeast be increased in the wintertime (and/or use warmer water) just to be on the safe side. The key temperature in my opinion is the finished dough temperature. Usually I temperature adjust the water to get the desired finished dough temperature but with the new method I found that I didn't have to worry about it when I used the water right out of the refrigerator. Also, the use of the whisk, even at pretty good speeds, and the flat beater don't seem to add much heat to the dough for the durations that they are deployed.

As a factoid, you might want to keep in mind that, according to General Mills, for each 15 degrees F rise in finished dough temperature (up to 100 degrees F), the rate of fermentation doubles. That may have been a greater factor in your case than the slight increase in yeast. The last dough I made had a finished dough temperature of around 65 degrees F. You indicated that yours was around 80 degrees F. There are undoubtedly other factors at work but temperature is a critical element.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on January 08, 2007, 04:55:07 PM
Peter,

What do you think of this scale?

http://www.cyberscale.net/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/64

Looks like what I'm looking for.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 06:59:46 PM
MWTC,

The only experience I've had with the small scales is the My Weigh 300-Z scale. The Durascale model you referenced is accurate to 0.01 g. (as opposed to 0.1 g. for mine), but its maximum capacity is only 50 g. (compared to 300 g. for mine). So, it would depend on how you plan to use the scale. I went back and checked all of the dough formulations posted in this thread and certainly the Durascale scale can handle all of the small quantities involved (beyond the flour and water), and in multiples if desired (up to a maximum of 50 g., of course). What I can't tell you is how significant the accuracy is and whether the results are better than using the posted volume measurements. I know that pftaylor uses a small scale (a discontinued Frieling model) for his Raquel doughs and he swears by his scale, but he is the only other member I can recall who uses a small scale. Based on my experience with the 300-Z, I wouldn't personally hesitate to buy another My Weigh product because they seem to be held in high regard by scale users.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: zymurgymaster on January 08, 2007, 07:13:52 PM
I have been using an IBal 201 scale for about a year.  I originally got it to weight out spices for my sausage making.  It has also serviced me well for weighing out hops for brewing and now I have pressed it into service for pizza making. 

It has also been borrowed by other brewers to weigh out priming sugar.

This is not the place I purchased it from but it will give you a general description of it.

http://saveonscales.com/product_i201_high_precision_lab_scale.html

I also have access to "S" class weights and can tell you that it is both accurate and precise.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Jack on January 09, 2007, 01:00:11 AM
As best I have been able to determine, the classical autolyse was not used with bread doughs using oil. However, my practice has been to add the oil at the end of the dough making process in order not to interfere with the hydration of the flour.

Peter,

I believe I can watch the flour become hydrated as the wisk beats it into the water.  At one point in the process, the flour just slips into a batter like consistancy.  It is at this instant that I believe the flour has become significantly hydrated.  This is also when I add more flour.  The wisk eliminates the rest period through mechanical means, quickly and effectively.  It is an eloquent solution, i.e., both faster and at least as good as a autolyse rest period.  For me, this change is a major leap in process technology.  Now I can work much faster, producing dough 2-3 times as fast as before.

Jack
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on January 09, 2007, 10:13:47 AM
Peter,

Thank-you for the info. on the scale.  Being an Accountant I love things to be exact.  Some call it anal but I love to insure repeatability.  ;D

Another question that I have is about Oil. I noticed the difference in flavor when I use olive oil versus vegetable oil in the dough formulation, the flavor is really noticeable. Have you experimented with dough flavoring as connected to the flavor of different oil types and brands? I read in one of the threads that Classico Olive oil is recommended by a member, any take on this angle? As related to flavoring alternatives.

MWTC   :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 09, 2007, 10:45:10 AM
MWTC,

For the doughs I have made and discussed in this thread I have tended to use primarily the Classico olive oil (yellow label). It has a pleasant, but not overpowering flavor. Professionals tend to use vegetable (salad) oils because they are less expensive than olive oils. Very few use extra virgin olive oil in their doughs, but they may use a bit on top of the pizza for richness and flavor. This is one of those areas where you should just experiment with different oils to see which you like the best. As an example, I recently purchased some rice bran oil and plan to do some testing with it, for the reasons given in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4423.msg36927.html#msg36927 (Reply 5).

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on January 09, 2007, 11:21:38 AM
For full disclosure on my part, I use rice bran oil as my standard oil, but when I want to blend it 50/50 with an olive oil, I use Tera Extra Virgin Olive Oil.  When I want to use olive oil by itself, I use Lucini Premium Select Extra Virgin Olive Oil because of its explicitly stated ultra-low acidity (0.2-0.4%) and purity.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on January 09, 2007, 08:55:17 PM
As a factoid, you might want to keep in mind that, according to General Mills, for each 15 degrees F rise in finished dough temperature (up to 100 degrees F), the rate of fermentation doubles.

I think in this case General Mills is oversimplifying the fermentation rate for those who don't want to use a calculator.  When I compare their statement against actual empirical data, it just doesn't fit.  A far more accurate equation to use if you have a calculator would be:

fermentation rate coefficient = sin((T/36)2)
where   fermentation rate coefficient is the percentage (in decimal form) of the maximum fermentative output of the yeast
    and   T is the temperature in degrees Celsius

Example:
rate coef = sin (20/36)2
rate coef = sin (0.555...)2
rate coef = sin 0.3086419753
rate coef = 0.303765063
rate = 30.3765% of maximum

The equation is intended to work within the range of 0°C (32°F) to 63.8°C (146.84°F, thermal cell death) and has been verified within the range of 0°C to 40°C (104°F).  Be sure to have your calculator in radian mode, not degree mode.

- red.november

EDIT: I'm making a graph available to those who want to see the difference between actual data and the two calculation methods (i.e. General Mills and above equation).  The dashed purple line represents a cubic spline interpolation of actual data.  The solid green area represents the General Mills method of calculation.  The solid gray line represents the above equation.

http://www.toastguard.com/lib/images/graphs/temp-ferment_rate.png
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: abatardi on January 10, 2007, 01:00:27 AM
That corresponds pretty closely to the old school calcs from the 50's (as seen in the pyler books):

Temp (c) : Max gas production (in mmoles CO2/hr per gram dry yeast) : Time to max gas production in minutes
29 : 20 : 150
31 : 23 : 135
33 : 24.5 : 135
35.5 : 25 : 120
38 : 26 : 90
40 : 22.5 : 75
42 : 20 : 30

This shows max production at around 38 degrees c (100.4 f) with a fairly steep drop after that. 

This is table for "liquid ferments" though.

- aba
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on January 10, 2007, 01:29:32 AM
This shows max production at around 38 degrees c (100.4 f) with a fairly steep drop after that. 

This is table for "liquid ferments" though.

Baker's yeast is much more heat tolerant today (compared to the 1950's) and can proceed very productively into the 40°-50°C range.  The liquid versus dough fermentation makes a pretty good difference too.  The equation I derived was based on several dough tests, some of them mine, two of them from another research group.  Here is a graph of the full range using the the higher precision exponent (2.1057714475):

http://www.toastguard.com/lib/images/graphs/thermal-ferment_rate.png

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 13, 2007, 01:06:34 PM
I recently conducted some more experiments using the new dough making method described in this thread. I also did a comparative dough experiment using the dough method that I had been using before switching to the new method. The previous method is described in the middle of Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563.

In all, I did three dough experiments. All three of the doughs were made using only flour, water (room temperature), salt and yeast (IDY). No oil and no sugar. This is basically the set of ingredients recommended by Evelyne Slomon to make the classic NY style pizza. Two of the doughs used all-purpose flour (General Mills Gold Medal), and the third used high-gluten flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot). All doughs weighed about 16 ounces and were subjected to the same dough management. Specifically, once the doughs were made, they were left at room temperature (around 69 degrees F) for about 3 hours, degassed and re-rounded, and then put into covered containers and into the refrigerator for 24 hours. Upon removal from the refrigerator, the dough balls were allowed to warm up at room temperature (around 69 degrees F) for two hours before shaping and stretching out to size (15” and beyond).

The two dough formulations I used were the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (166.25%):
279.66 g  |  9.86 oz | 0.62 lbs
181.78 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.7 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.8 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
464.94 g | 16.4 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
(GM A-P flour version)

and

Flour (100%):
Water (69%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1%):
Total (170.25%):
273.09 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs
188.43 g  |  6.65 oz | 0.42 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
2.73 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
464.94 g | 16.4 oz | 1.02 lbs | TF = N/A
(KASL version)

A few comments about the above dough formulations are in order. First, for the two all-purpose doughs, using the two different dough making methods, I used a hydration of 65%. That is high for an all-purpose flour, but I was able to make the doughs without any difficulty using either method. Normally, an all-purpose flour has an absorption rate of around 61% +/- 2%. However, the “operational absorption” used by bakers can be 2-4% more, and, allowing for the possibility of the flour having a reduced moisture content and the effects of room humidity, the flour can frequently tolerate a higher than rated absorption. On this basis, I used 65%. Following the same analysis, I decided to use 69% hydration for the KASL.

Procedurally, I made the doughs by dissolving the salt in the water, then stirring in the IDY (as Evelyne has recommended for a home setting), and then gradually adding the flour, which had been sifted. For the first GM all-purpose dough (GMAP1) and for the KASL dough, I used the combination of whisk, flat beater and the C-hook. For the second GMAP2 dough, I used the former method as referenced in the link above. The finished dough temperatures out of the bowl were 69 degrees F for the two GM doughs, and around 67 degrees F for the KASL dough. To compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl, I increased the ingredient quantities by 2.5%. Doing that produced the final 16-ounce dough ball weights.

In terms of the overall quality of the two all-purpose doughs made using the two different dough making methods, the GMAP1 dough was markedly better than the GMAP2 dough. The GMAP1 dough had exceptional extensibility with a uniform thickness throughout. I was able to stretch out the dough—which weighed only 16 ounces—to 15” with ease. To see how far I could then stretch out the dough, I continued to stretch it out to about 24” inches. At that point, the dough was as diaphanous as the dough shown at Jeff V.’s website. Beyond 24”, the dough started to tear. The best I could do with the GMAP2 dough before it started to tear was around 20”, and the dough thickness was uneven. The first photo below shows the GMAP1 dough at the 18” point. If one looks carefully, the grid pattern of the 18” screen on which the dough was placed can be seen in several places.

Because the GMAP1 and GMAP2 doughs were experimental and solely for comparing the two dough making methods, I did not use them to make finished pizzas. The doughs were simply discarded. The importance of the two tests to me was that the new dough making method has significant merit. The results also suggest that the way a dough is made has a pronounced effect on how it will perform at a later stage. I also now believe that the machine used to make the dough may be the most significant factor in final dough quality, whether it is a DLX or a Santos, or a higher-end KitchenAid with a spiral hook, or my simple KitchenAid mixer with a C-hook using the modified processes. The GMAP1 dough was as good as any I have ever made from the standpoint of handling qualities.

The KASL dough was used to make an actual pizza. That dough also handled well although it was quite extensible, a condition that I attributed to the very high hydration. Even though I had no problems stretching the dough out to 15”, the desired final size, I think it may be better to use a somewhat lower hydration next time, possibly 67%. The second and third photos show the finished pizza using the KASL dough. The toppings were a combination of portobello mushrooms, red and green peppers, and pepperoni. Because the dressed pizza was larger than my pizza stone, I baked the pizza on a dark, anodized pizzatools.com perforated disk (16”) which I placed on a pizza stone that had been preheated on the lowest oven rack position for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. Once the crust set up, I removed the disk and allowed the pizza to finish baking on the stone. The total bake time was around 8 minutes. I am sure that using a pizza screen in the normal method I use will also work well.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 10:03:53 AM
My latest experiment using the new dough making method discussed in this thread was to test the effects of adding the oil to the dough mixture early in the process rather than toward the end, which has been my more or less standard practice (and the one recommended by Tom Lehmann). The idea to incorporate the oil early in the process came from a recent post by member November, who routinely combines oil with water, flour and other ingredients. He notes that the uniformity of incorporation of the oil into the dough is as important as when it is incorporated. What I wanted to test is whether the early incorporation of oil in the dough would hamper hydration of the flour or produce other possible unwanted effects. For purposes of the latest test, I used the following Lehmann dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (168%):
266.26 g  |  9.39 oz | 0.59 lbs
173.07 g  |  6.1 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.66 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
447.32 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.1025

Although not indicated in the above table, I used a thickness factor of 0.10 and increased the amounts of the ingredients by 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses in the bowl. Doing this increased the thickness factor to 0.1025, as noted in the table.

For purposes of the test, I sifted the flour (King Arthur Sir Lancelot), and used the whisk, flat beater and C-hook combination I have been using for the new dough making method. More specifically, I added the water (directly out of the refrigerator, at 41.6 degrees F) to the mixer bowl and, with the whisk attached and the mixer at stir speed, gradually added the flour to the bowl. As the whisk filled up with the batter-like dough and started to groan--after about 2/3 of the flour had been added to the bowl--I added the oil. Since the dough was not stiff at this stage, the oil was easily and uniformly incorporated into the dough, which took about a minute or so. I then replaced the whisk with the flat beater. I then gradually added the rest of the flour along with the yeast (IDY) and salt. As the remaining ingredients were incorporated into the dough, also at stir speed, I concluded that the dough needed a bit more water. I added one teaspoon (which had the effect of increasing the hydration from 65% to 66.8%) and after that was incorporated into the dough, I replaced the flat beater with the C-hook. It took about a minute of kneading by the C-hook, at stir/1 speed, to finish the dough. I then “punched and kneaded” the dough for about 30 seconds, shaped it into a round ball, oiled it, and then placed it in a lidded metal container to go into the refrigerator. The dough weighed 15.7 ounces and had a finished dough temperature of 64.4 degrees F.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for 15 days. Over the course of the 15 days, the dough went through several transformations. It went from a round ball to a flattened disk, and then expanded laterally to fill up the entire bottom of the container, much like a large pancake. At around day 6 or 7, the dough started to develop a spotted effect just below the top surface, giving the dough a grayish coloration. As I discovered before from other experiments, the gray tint to the dough is just at the top surface. The bottom looks normal. The spotting effect gradually increased until the time I decided to use the dough—at day 15. I might add that the dough showed no signs of overfermentation, like protruding bubbles or sagging dough, so that was not the reason I decided to use the dough. I just felt that 15 days was long enough. When I finally shaped and stretched the dough, it behaved quite normally and I concluded that the dough could have lasted at least a few more days. The dough was extensible, but not overly so, and had good windowpaning and a uniform thickness as I stretched the dough out with ease to its final size of 14”.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The toppings were fresh sliced mushrooms, red and green peppers, sweet onion (Texas 1015), and pepperoni slices. As can be seen from the photos, there was plenty of residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to contribute to ample browning of the crust even though no sugar was added to the dough. I could also detect a mild sweetness in the crust. It was not as pronounced as prior efforts, but there nonetheless.

The pizza was baked directly on my pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) which I had preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about 7 minutes, whereupon I moved the pizza to the upper rack position to finish baking, for about another minute or so. There was good oven spring, with a flavorful and chewy crust. I could not conclude that the flavor of the crust was better at 15 days than one with far fewer days, or at least my palate couldn’t detect it. Of course, the benefit of a 15-day dough is that it can remain in the refrigerator for quite a long time without fear of overrising or overfermenting, and still be of high quality and easily managed. The experiment also confirmed that the oil can be added to the dough in the early stages (e.g., during the whisk stage) and not adversely affect the hydration of the flour or the dough or finished crust.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on February 17, 2007, 10:15:19 AM
Peter,

Except for the peppers, that looks pretty close to a pizza I baked on Wednesday.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 10:52:34 AM
November,

Knowing how you favor room-temperature fermentation over cold fermentation, I am sure you didn't wait 15 days for your pizza ;D.

I also know that you are a big advocate of using oil in a dough, and apportioning the formula oil between the oil used in the dough and the oil on the dough. I recently made a classic NY style pizza (reported earlier in this thread) in which there was no oil in the dough at all, and it seemed to me that I could tell that it was missing when I tasted the crust (which I also thought was low on salt). I suspect that there are some sound principles involved in the way oil is used in a dough formulation, but I wonder if you could explain the rationale behind your use of oil in making pizza dough, and also how one might calculate the apportionment of the formula oil between the inside and outside of the dough, perhaps using the amount of oil I specified in the last Lehmann dough formulation? I'd be more than happy with the CliffsNotes explanation if there is one.

I was also wondering whether the dark spots just under the top surface of the dough were due to the oil, or possibly some effects of oxidation as I opened the container from time to time to inspect the dough. As you know, the bottom of the dough is unaffected, only the top. In fact, in my case, the bottom had a nice, normal yellow coloration, even after 15 days. I even thought to flip the dough over part way through the fermentation period to see what would happen. I decided against it because I didn't want to abort the experiment I was conducting.

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: petesopizza on February 17, 2007, 11:51:14 AM
The dots in the dough is the yeast dying. or so I have been told. :) A place where I used to work would wait for the dots to appear then use the dough.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on February 17, 2007, 01:49:24 PM
Knowing how you favor room-temperature fermentation over cold fermentation, I am sure you didn't wait 15 days for your pizza ;D.

Quite right.  I had an onion sprout and grow 4 inches within the last 15 days.  When it takes less time to germinate an onion than it does to have a dough ready for an onion topped pizza, you know you've been holding on to your dough too long.

I also know that you are a big advocate of using oil in a dough, and apportioning the formula oil between the oil used in the dough and the oil on the dough. [...] I suspect that there are some sound principles involved in the way oil is used in a dough formulation, but I wonder if you could explain the rationale behind your use of oil in making pizza dough, and also how one might calculate the apportionment of the formula oil between the inside and outside of the dough, perhaps using the amount of oil I specified in the last Lehmann dough formulation?

From a previous post in the kneading thread:

in the chemical engineering world, oil of various kinds are used extensively as plasticizers. [...]

"Plasticizers work by embedding themselves between the chains of polymers, space them apart (increasing of the "free volume"), and thus [...] making it softer." - [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer]

In this case the polymer is the gluten amino acid chain (heteropolymer).  The more the gluten is plasticized, the more hydrostatic pressure it can withstand.  Here's more on plasticized gluten for use in high tensile strength films (coatings):

http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/R1979.htm


Lipids have four major modification characteristics with regard to protein mixtures: protein solubility, water vapor permeability (WVP), tensile strength, and elongation.  Attached is a graph of the various levels of influence oil has on protein.  The green line represents tensile strength at break, the blue line represents WVP, the gray line represents elongation at break, and the orange line represents protein solubility.  Taking into account only the tensile strength and WVP, the vertical line represents the ideal percentage of oil to add for an equally weighted compromise between the two.  The values along the bottom indicate a percentage of the protein percentage in the flour, so if the flour has a protein percentage of 12.7%, then the ideal percentage of oil to add to the flour is 1.58% under these precepts.  The more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.

The ratio of volume-oil versus surface-oil is simply a logical extension of evenly distributing oil throughout the dough ball.  Unless one were to re-knead the dough sometime after oiling the surface, or try to wipe off the oil after rising, that oil can be in a disproportionate quantity which could result in disproportionate browning.  The ratio I use is intended to minimize the effect of having more oil on the surface in relation to the dough ball itself, while still functioning minimally as a barrier to escaping moisture.  It's also intended to prevent excess oil from seeping into the surface of the dough creating a "dead" skin (dead as in uninhabitable by yeast).  I've also attached the formula for determining the ratio.  MOtotal is the total amount of oil for the dough ball, inside and out.  MF is the mass (weight) of the flour.  MOi is the amount of oil to mix in with the dough.  The remainder from subtracting MOi from MOtotal is the amount of oil for the surface.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on February 17, 2007, 02:17:36 PM
Peter,

I can provide an example based on your latest dough formula, but because I'm pretty sure many people don't include the total amount of oil used in and on their dough, I'm going to use the formula adapted for determining the amount for the surface.  Otherwise it would be 1.93g for use in the dough and 0.73g for use on the surface.  Attached is the formula for determining the surface oil when it is not accounted for in the dough formula.  I purposely used the original formula and marked out deprecated terms to illustrate the adaption.

(36 * pi) / 266 = 0.4251779531
cubed.root(0.4251779531)  = 0.7519522196
0.7519522196 / 2 = 37.6% of the oil used in the dough, which means:
0.3759761098 * 2.66 = 1.00g for the surface

One thing this promotes for sure is consistency, whether the amount of oil used is agreeable or not.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2007, 03:00:31 PM
November,

Thank you very much.

I just about always include some oil in my doughs and on the outer surfaces so it came to me as a big surprise to find that the all-purpose dough I made the other day and reported on earlier in this thread was perhaps the best, or one of the best, doughs I have ever made in terms of having an almost perfect balance between elasticity and extensibility. And that dough had no oil in it at all, and just a small amount on the outer surface. I might have been happy to give credit to the new dough making method I have been using and writing about, but are there other factors besides oil that might have been involved? The formulation included only flour, water (65%), salt (1%) and yeast (0.25% IDY). The dough did ferment at room temperature for a few hours before degassing and placing it in the refrigerator, but otherwise the dough preparation was fairly standard (salt dissolved in water, flour and IDY added, etc.)

For those who may need an online tool for calculating cube roots, see http://www.csgnetwork.com/cuberootcubecalc.html.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on February 17, 2007, 03:42:47 PM
Peter,

For one, all-purpose flour is lower in protein which as a result, can't utilize as much oil anyway.  If you were to add oil, you would want it to be lower than for higher protein flours.  Given that you're used to adding oil late in the mixing process, I'm not sure what you could have experienced to have a better handling dough.  I would suggest doing a side-by-side comparison with a hydration of 60-62%, and one ball having a small percentage of oil (added at the same time as the water), with all the other conditions being the same.

By the way, if you lack a cubed root function on your calculator, but have an arbitrary power function (x^y) you can simply raise to the reciprocal of the root (e.g. x^(1/3)).

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: petesopizza on February 19, 2007, 10:24:52 PM
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2007, 10:40:39 PM
pete-zza are you going to perform more ady experiments?

It's likely that I will at some point.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2007, 08:24:20 AM
Recently, I decided to use the new KitchenAid dough making method to make a Sbarro’s clone dough, as was recently the subject of discussion at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg18163.html#msg18163.

For purposes of the Sbarro’s clone dough, I used the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
ADY (0.25%):
Salt (2%):
Non-Diastatic Barley Malt Syrup (2.22%):
Lard (2.5%):
Total (162.97%):
427.94 g  |  15.09 oz | 0.94 lbs
239.65 g  |  8.45 oz | 0.53 lbs
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
8.56 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
9.5 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
10.7 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
697.41 g | 24.6 oz | 1.54 lbs | TF = N/A

As is my practice with the new KitchenAid dough making method, I increased the quantities of ingredients by 2.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. This yielded a final dough weight of a bit over 24 ounces, the targeted dough weight for an 18” pizza. I calculated a thickness factor for the dough formulation of 0.094299 initially, but that increased to 0.0966565 when adjusted to reflect the increase in the quantities of ingredients. The water used for the bulk of the formula water was bottled water out of the refrigerator at 49.5 degrees F. The finished dough temperature was 69.7 degrees F.

What I wondered most most about the Sbarro’s dough clone at the outset was how well the new KitchenAid dough making method would work for a 24-ounce dough ball in my basic KitchenAid mixer--which is larger than my typical dough ball weight--together with a hydration of 56%, which is far below the absorption rate (around 63%) of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour that I used. I suspected that I would make greater use of the flat beater and the C-hook, and a higher mixer speed with the C-hook. And, indeed, this was the case, as the following discussion describes.

To prepare the dough, I started by sifting the flour and rehydrating the ADY in a small amount (less than ¼-cup) of the formula water which I had preheated to around 105 degrees F. During the time of rehydration of the ADY, a period of about 10 minutes, I added the rest of the formula water (at 49.5 degrees F) to the mixer bowl along with the salt, which I stirred to dissolve. Once the ADY was rehydrated, I added it to the mixer bowl along with the non-diastatic barley malt syrup (Eden brand, from Whole Foods), which is essentially a sugar (sucrose) substitute for purposes of the clone recipe. I gradually added the sifted flour to the bowl, at stir speed, and combined the ingredients using the whisk attachment. While the dough was still somewhat batter-like, I added the lard (Armour brand) and kneaded that into the dough mixture.

Once the whisk started to fill up with dough, I scraped the dough off of the whisk and replaced the whisk with the flat beater, and gradually added the remaining flour at stir/1 speed. It soon became clear, after about a minute or so, that the dough was quite stiff and that I would have to use the flat beater longer than usual. I also found it necessary to stop the mixer to intervene to manually help the dough take on all of the remaining flour. Once that was done, I switched to the C-hook and kneaded the dough at speeds 1-3 (in sequence) for about 5 minutes, or until I could see that the dough was properly and completely kneaded. After about a final minute of hand kneading, I lightly oiled the finished dough ball and placed it in a metal lidded container, which was then placed into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 24 hours before using.

What the above exercise proved is that it is possible to use the new dough making method to make a fairly stiff dough but that it is necessary to adjust the relative mix/knead times using the three attachments. I found this to be an intuitive, natural exercise to which I adjusted quite easily. The finished dough was of good handling quality and I had no problems shaping and stretching the dough out to 18”, the desired pizza size. The photo below is of the finished pizza. Additional details of the finished pizza are provided at the Sbarro’s thread referenced above.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Randy on February 23, 2007, 01:02:32 PM
These pizza look really good.  In the next week or so I thought I would give you method a try using the recipe you posted in reply 1.  I want to use Harvest King flour if you think that would be a good flour for a test even though you specified KASL in the reply.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2007, 03:23:40 PM
Randy,

I don't see any reason offhand why the Harvest King flour can't be used in the method. I routinely substitute bread flour (King Arthur in my case) for the KASL in recipes without changing anything, although on occasion I may drop the hydration percent a bit for the bread flour. I have found that in general I can get better hydration of a flour using the new method than the other methods I previously used.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: zappoman on March 12, 2007, 10:04:21 AM
Pete et al,
This is my first post on this forum, so please be patient. I have been lurking in the background for about one month ... reading, learning, wishing, testing, and wishing again!

I am going to attempt the recipe that starts this thread at the end of the week. I do have a yeast question in two parts ...
I have been playing with the Italian cultures from sourdo.com, and I have had some success with making rustic breads. I want to use the "stuff" (preferment?) to create pizza dough. Makes some sense to me. Here are my questions:
1. Is it worth the effort (taste/texture) to use these "cultures?"
2. Is there a conversion factor/table for IDY vs. "the goop?"

FWIW ... I do have a digital scale.

Finally ...
I appreciate all the sharing you folks have done. Really! I have cooked in my electric oven. I have cooked on my BGE. I am in search of that great home pizza, and I think that riding your wake has been a great experience.

Thanks bunches and doughballs,
Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2007, 11:25:53 AM
zappoman,

It has been my intention from the beginning to try the new dough making method with a natural starter or preferment. I just haven't gotten around to doing it yet. So, I don't have any idea at the moment as to whether it will work, or how well.

I occasionally read about conversions of commercial yeast to a starter quantity. However, I don't know how such a conversion can be generally relied upon because of the different strains of starters, different strengths, different refreshment methods, different hydrations, etc. You might ultimately be able to come up with such a conversion for your own starter that you can rely on, but it is unlikely to be usable by someone else with a different starter.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: zappoman on March 21, 2007, 12:14:15 PM
Peter,

I am amazed and grateful at the sheer volume of information that you generously offer on this site. Thank you.

Moving right along ...
I made a batch of dough following Post #1 in this thread. I made it just two days ago, and it has been in the refrigerator ever since.
Yesterday it appeared "blown" to me ... lots (double) of rise. So I rerolled my little doughballs.
Today ... same thing.
I just rerolled again.
PRIMARY QUESTION: How long can I do this without destroying the finished product?
This causes me to wonder. It appears that I had too much yeast? My digital scale can only measure to the nearest gram, no tenths. I wonder if the "postal" scale that I have needs an upgrade?
SECONDARY QUESTION: Does that seem to be the likely cause?
FINAL QUESTION: Where can I find a "reasonably-priced" scale that might be better suited for pizza-making?

Thanks again,
Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2007, 03:09:58 PM
zappoman,

Thank you for the kind remarks.

The principal factors that govern the rate and extent of fermentation in a typical dough formulation are the amount of yeast used, the temperature of the finished dough, and the temperature at which the dough is fermented. The temperature of the finished dough is governed principally by the temperature of the water used, the temperature of the flour, and the heat added by mixing. If too much yeast is used, and/or the finished dough temperature is too high, or the dough is stored at too high a temperature, the dough will ferment at a faster rate. To keep temperatures on the cool side, and to extend the useful life of the dough, one should put the dough in the refrigerator as soon as possible after being made and not subject the dough to a period of room temperature fermentation before putting it in the refrigerator, as some prefer to do. Also, one might use a metal container to help cool the dough a bit faster, and place the container toward the back of the refrigerator where it is cooler and less subject to the effects of repeated openings and closings of the refrigerator door.

Unless you have a special scale that can weigh small quantities of lightweight ingredients like yeast, I suggest that you use the volume measurements instead. For flour and water, I definitely recommend that you use a scale, preferably a good digital scale. If I did not already have a digital scale, I would purchase the one recommended by November at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4005.msg33649.html#msg33649 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4005.msg33649.html#msg33649) (Reply 3). From some posts I have read, apparently a few members have already heeded November’s advice. Some of the prices I have seen for the recommended unit seem to be very reasonabe for the number and types of features offered.

You didn’t indicate where you live, but if the weather where you live has turned warm recently, as it has where I live outside of Dallas, doughs will have a tendency to ferment faster. Room temperatures will usually be higher but even refrigerator temperatures can be a bit higher. I have already noticed this recently with doughs that I have been experimenting with. To compensate for the warmer temperatures, one should use less yeast, cooler water (even ice water, if necessary), or a combination of both. There are other possible ways of compensating, such as using a lower hydration or more salt, but I would concentrate on yeast quantity and water temperature before resorting to the other possibilities.

I suspect that in your case you may have used too much yeast or the water temperature was too high, or the mixer you used contributed too much heat to the dough. Usually the latter occurs at high mixer speeds or as a result of prolonged kneading. That is one of the reasons why I try to use the lowest mixer speeds and not to knead too long.

There is most likely a practical limit to how many times you can punch a dough down and let it recover, but I don’t know what it is for a Lehmann dough since I don’t think I have ever punched a Lehmann dough down. Usually doughs that can be punched down two or more times contain a lot of yeast, were made using water temperature on the high side, or a combination of both, or the dough was kneaded too long or at too high a mixer speed. It could also happen if your refrigerator compartment was malfunctioning and operating at too high a temperature. That would usually be a rare occurrence and you would soon know it. 

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: zappoman on March 21, 2007, 03:56:21 PM
Wow!
Thank you.
I am humbled!  ;)

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: charbo on March 21, 2007, 04:35:08 PM
Temperature is the elephant in the room (or refrigerator) that makes it hard to duplicate recipes.  In winter, my kitchen is usually around 60°F.  For yeast, that’s a huge difference from someone else’s kitchen at 70°F.  A lot of people seem to have refrigerators at around 40°F.  Mine is at 35°F.  Little happens to the dough at 35°.  If I’m going to refrigerate the dough, I first leave it out about 1.5 hours.

cb
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: zappoman on March 21, 2007, 04:37:27 PM
Ready for this one?

My "dough" refrigerator is in the garage ...
and I live in Florida!

Thanks,
Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2007, 05:25:13 PM
I am humbled!  ;)

zappoman,

Pizza dough has a way of humbling just about everyone. Even Chris Bianco has talked about the variability and unpredictability of his doughs. He yields to that condition, and has learned to respect it. I understand what he means, and try to show the same respect. You can't order a dough around, or abuse it, and expect to get good results. The dough rules. About the best you can do is "program" the dough to do what you hope it will do and then cross your fingers.

Professionals have an advantage over home pizza makers in that they use commercial coolers to store their dough, and in many cases they make their dough at night so that it ferments overnight when the workers are not around and going in and out of the coolers. The commercial coolers also operate about 5-10 degrees F cooler than most home refrigerator compartments. I am sure that just by going in and out of my refrigerator several times a day, and adding and removing items from the refrigerator, I am raising my dough temperatures. Opening and closing the dough containers (e.g., my metal lidded containers) to observe the dough will also affect the dough temperature. cb is right that temperature is the elephant in the room (or refrigerator). Because of that, I seriously wonder whether it will be possible this summer to make a functioning dough that can cold ferment for 15 days, as I did a while back when it was cold here in Texas. I would perhaps have to use ice cubes.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 08:06:36 AM
Through all of the experiments I have conducted on this thread, one of the things that has always intrigued me is the appearance of dark specks and an overall grayish tinge on the tops of dough balls during cold fermentation. Examples of what I am referring to can be seen in the first photo posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370) (Reply 23) and in the second photo posted at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081) (Reply 29).

Before I started making doughs that went beyond 4 or 5 days, I had never seen doughs with the appearances as shown in the abovereferenced posts. And, although the “gray” dough balls produced some of the best crusts and pizzas I have made, I was still puzzled as to what was causing the gray appearance. I might add that the grayish tinge and specks appeared only on the tops of dough balls. The bottoms were quite normal, even up to 15 days of cold fermentation. Usually the first signs of the dark specks appeared at around 6-7 days of cold fermentation, although in one case, as described at Reply 29 referenced above, the spots and gray coloration of the dough occurred after about 2-3 days.

Initially, I thought that maybe the dark specks were dead yeast, or possibly yeast that was affected in some way at around 6-7 days because of the prolonged presence of oil on the outer surfaces of the dough balls. When I researched the matter, one of the few explanations I could find was that the dark specks were due to oxidation of bran particles in the dough (“old dough”). This explanation came from John Correll at his Encyclopizza tome, at section 18 at http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478. (http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478.) Since I was using high-gluten flour (KASL), this explanation seemed plausible because high-gluten flours are more likely to have more bran than other white flours, even though millers go to great lengths to keep the bran levels low in just about all white flours. Also, high-gluten flours have higher ash values than other white flours, which can be taken as an indication that the flours were milled closer to the outer bran/aleurone layer of the endosperm where the mineral content is higher than at the center. It is the higher mineral content that is reflected in the higher ash values of the incinerated samples of high-gluten flours. As best I can determine, the KASL has an ash value of 0.52 +/- 0.02%. By contrast, for the KA all-purpose flour and bread flour, I believe the corresponding number is 0.48 +/-0.02% (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/85e624febf29e4c7836066cc68c71648/miscdocs/BFS%20Specs%20-%20Customer%20Copy.pdf (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/85e624febf29e4c7836066cc68c71648/miscdocs/BFS%20Specs%20-%20Customer%20Copy.pdf)).

To see whether the dark specks were limited to doughs based on high-gluten flours, I made several test doughs using all-purpose flour and bread flour. I allowed the test doughs to cold ferment for several days, watching daily for the appearance of the dark specks. In just about all cases, I let the dough ferment past their useful lives, just to be sure that enough time was provided for the specks to appear, if they were ever going to do so. I also tested plastic (Rubbermaid) and metal containers, to see if the type of container might have contributed in some way to the occurrence of the specks. In some of the test doughs, I used ADY in lieu of IDY, to see if that mattered, and in others I omitted the oil altogether. This was done to see if the oil was a possible factor, either in or on the dough, particularly for a dough that was allowed to ferment for 6 or more days, where I had little past experience

When the tests were done and I evaluated the results, I concluded that it was only the high-gluten doughs (KASL) that had the dark specks. I saw no evidence of specks in the doughs made from all-purpose flour or bread flour, even after 7 days, and up to 9 days in a few cases. The type of yeast didn’t seem to matter, whether it was used early or late in the dough making process, and the presence or lack of oil didn’t seem to matter. There could well be some other explanation, but for now the best I can offer is that it is only the KASL high-gluten flour that seems to be prone to the formation of the dark specks in doughs that cold ferment for more than 6-7 days. I wish that I could say that the appearance of the specks is a good indicator that the dough should be used shortly thereafter, but the specks can persist and even increase with time. The appearance of bubbles on the upper surface of the dough, along with smaller gas bubbles at the sides and bottom, seems to be a more reliable indicator, whether the specks exist or not. I saw this most clearly with the all-purpose and bread flour doughs. At some point, they all developed the bubbles. But no dark specks.

Peter

EDIT (10/2/13): For a substitute link for the Correll Encyclopizza item referenced above, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478 (http://web.archive.org/web/20040602213637/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/07_Dough_trouble-shooting/07_dough-crust_trouble-shooting.htm#_Toc533730478)

EDIT (1/27/19): For the Wayback Machine copy of the above inoperative King Arthur link, see: https://web.archive.org/web/20060311133639/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/85e624febf29e4c7836066cc68c71648/miscdocs/BFS%20Specs%20-%20Customer%20Copy.pdf
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on March 22, 2007, 10:38:13 AM
Peter,

I have been experimenting with using a little pure potato flour to my dough experiments and guess what appeared. Spots, like you just expressed. The spots appeared much quicker than usual. So that might be a clue to what is happening with the spotting. Ask Red.November for his input, I'm sure he has a take on it.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 11:14:08 AM
MWTC,

I was actually waiting to see if you would reply to my last post but I thought you might mention that the doughs you made using the poolish method, including the use of All Trumps high-gluten flour, did not exhibit the spotting after several days, even beyond 7 days. And the All Trumps flour has an even higher ash content (0.54 +/- 0.03%) than the KASL. I was prepared to point out that your poolish method lowers the dough pH and that may have been the reason for your not getting the spotting in your dough. As pointed out in the Correll piece referenced in my earlier post, the cure for the spotting is to add a bit of vinegar to the dough to lower the pH.

In your case, you may want to see if the potato flour you are using includes sodium bisulfite. That ingredient is often added to dehydrated potato flour to prevent browning of the product. I don't know if that answers your problem, but you might check the label for your potato flour to see if sodium bisulfite is included.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on March 22, 2007, 11:33:13 AM
Peter,

The dough that I talked about using the pure potato flour did use a poolish of four hours. I did get the spotting faster than any dough I've ever produced. The package lists the ingredients as pure potato flour nothing added. I bought it at Whole Foods. I reduced the amount of potato flour and increased the EVOO and the spotting didn't appear. I also am adding Soy Butter and Soy based Cream Cheese. Better results all-around. But the variable that changed things to spotting was the potato flour.  Still experimenting. ;D

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 12:44:47 PM
I was prepared to point out that your poolish method lowers the dough pH and that may have been the reason for your not getting the spotting in your dough. As pointed out in the Correll piece referenced in my earlier post, the cure for the spotting is to add a bit of vinegar to the dough to lower the pH.

If the spots were a result of oxidation, I don't see how a lower pH will cause them to go away.  Acid-catalyzed oxidation is one of the most common reactions in all of chemistry.  I use peracetic acid as a general purpose kitchen cleaner for this very reason.  It's oxidation potential is higher than hydrogen peroxide alone.  So either the addition of acetic acid to remedy the problem is bogus, or the theory that pH has anything to do with it is bogus.

Peter, have you tried using vinegar in the dough to confirm its effect on the spots?  If you can confirm that vinegar reduces or eliminates the spots, we can then look at alternatives to bran oxidation.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 01:06:52 PM
Peter, have you tried using vinegar in the dough to confirm its effect on the spots?  If you can confirm that vinegar reduces or eliminates the spots, we can then look at alternatives to bran oxidation.

November,

As our resident debunker, I was hoping you might shed some light on the spotting issue. I have not yet tried adding some vinegar but I will conduct a new experiment to test out the thesis. A secondary reason for doing the experiment is to see if the vinegar affects the performance of the dough in other respects, such as browning of the crust and fermentation, as noted by John Correll in the previously referenced Encyclopizza link.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 01:55:06 PM
Peter,

I can already confirm the effects of additional acetic acid on dough, as you might have taken note of in the past with postings like my Dutch Apple pizza recipe and the occasional mention of rice vinegar.  It will in fact increase the browning of the dough as expected via aldol condensation and various carbonyl-amine reactions.

I think I've gotten black spots on my dough just once in the last year, so it doesn't happen frequently enough for me to examine.  I'm not sure I have enough information by proxy in this case to form a hypothesis.  A closer analysis would need to be performed.  If you obtain black spots again, let me know right away and I can instruct you on how to test for different things.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 02:09:13 PM
November,

The note at the Correll site reads as follows:

NOTE: Increasing the acidity of dough can inhibit crust browning, so it may be necessary to add non-fat dry milk or whey to increase browning. Increased acidity also inhibits fermentation, so it may be necessary to increase yeast level or dough temperature.

The note seems to be contrary to what you stated in your last post. I don't plan to use either non-fat dry milk or whey or increase the yeast level when I make the next test dough. I may have to adjust water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature in line with what I achieved before when the spotting occurred.

Peter


Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 02:53:02 PM
Peter,

Inhibiting fermentation I'll wholeheartedly agree with, as I have also pointed that out before, but as for inhibiting browning, I don't see that as ever being possible.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 03:00:24 PM
It just occurred to me where the source of this mythic-like theory comes from: using citric acid to halt the browning of fruit.  The problem is, as anyone with knowledge of this process could attest, the browning in these situations is enzymatic in nature.  The browning in baking is non-enzymatic, and completely unrelated.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 05:39:51 PM
As you know, myths irritate me, so I put together a little experiment to demonstrate the browning effects of carbohydrates and proteins treated with acetic acid, relative to untreated.  Attached is an image I just scanned of two 1 inch test strips.  Each test strip is made from .012 inch (150 lb), uncoated stock paper.  I think you can guess which one was treated with acetic acid.  Here are the solution compositions with which I treated a test strip:

Solution A (top)
20.0 g water
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

Solution B (bottom)
20.0 g water
1.00 g acetic acid
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

Both were heated in a 500 degree F oven for exactly 3 minutes.

From digital image analysis, the bottom strip (Solution B) tested with a blackness level of 73% while the top strip (Solution A) tested with a blackness level of 50%.  That's almost one and a half times darker.  What may bring back memories for some people, is the "secret spy message" kids are taught to do with lemon juice written on a piece of paper, only to be revealed when placed near a heat source.  This is almost identical, except that a few more reactions are going on here than simple oxidation.

- red.november

EDIT: See following post for image.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 22, 2007, 06:59:19 PM
It was brought to my attention in private that there also looms a myth involving Potassium bitartrate (Cream of Tartar) inhibiting browning in baked goods.  Well, here you go:

Solution A (top)
Solution B (middle)
Solution C (bottom)
20.0 g water
1.00 g potassium bitartrate
0.96 g sucrose
0.50 g VWG
0.04 g cornstarch

The potassium bitartrate treated strip tested with a blackness level of 76%.  Although a slightly different hue than the acetic acid solution, it is actually the darkest.

- red.november

EDIT: In the interest of disclosing a more complete picture of the methodology, I've also attached an image of the control test strips.  The top is untreated and unheated, while the bottom is treated only with water and heated the same length of time (3 minutes) at the same temperature (500 F).  The water-treated and heated strip tested with a blackness level of 4%.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 09:00:36 PM
November,

Thank you very much for running the "browning" experiments. I hope soon to prepare another KASL dough that will hopefully exhibit the spotting phenomenon. If I replicate the spotting condition, you will be the first to know. I also plan to run a test dough using a bit of vinegar.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2007, 09:20:53 PM
The last dough ball I made as part of the tests discussed in Reply 78 was a Lehmann NY style dough ball made using King Arthur bread flour. Even though it was past its prime, that is, overfermented, I decided to try to make a pizza out of it anyway. To do this successfully, the dough can’t be on its absolute last legs. It has to still be alive. It may also turn out that the dough is so extensible that it may be very difficult, and even impossible in some cases, to shape and stretch the dough out by hand and use a peel to load the pizza into the oven. But if you can manage to get the dressed pizza into the oven you can often end up with an exceptional pizza, with superb flavors of fermentation in the finished crust. The crust may have a lighter crust color than normal, because of the depletion of the sugars, but the crumb can be very good and of nice texture.

The dough itself was based on the following Lehmann dough formulation, which I derived from the recently updated Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html:

Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
IDY (0.25%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (1%):
Total (168%):
266.26 g  |  9.39 oz | 0.59 lbs
173.07 g  |  6.1 oz | 0.38 lbs
0.67 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
4.66 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
447.32 g | 15.78 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.1025

The dough was prepared using the basic techniques described in this thread (sifted flour, whisk, flat paddle and C-hook), a water temperature of 48.6 degrees F, and a 2.5% increase in the ingredients to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation. The finished dough weight was 15.75 ounces, and the finished dough temperature was 69.7 degrees F. The thickness factor entered into the tool was 0.10.

The dough ball was 7 days old when I decided to use it. I knew it was on the decline on day 6, when large bubbles started to form at the upper surface of the dough. That was a signal that the dough had to be promptly used. I stretched the use of the dough out one more day in order to complete the test for which I had made the dough in the first place. In preparation for shaping the dough ball, I preheated my pizza stone for about an hour at 500-550 degrees F. However, when time came to shape and stretch the dough, I found it so extensible that I concluded that I wouldn’t be able to use a peel to dress and load the pizza into the oven. So I decided to use a cutter pan in combination with the pizza stone. My cutter pan is a 14” solid, dark, anodized pizzatools.com cutter pan such as shown at http://www.pizzatools.com/productdisplay.aspx?catid=52&c=Cutter_Pans. I lightly oiled the bottom of the cutter pan with olive oil, to enhance the browning of the bottom of the crust, and after stretching out the dough to about 10”, I draped the dough over the pan and pulled the edges out the rest of the way to the rim of the pan.

After dressing the pizza (in a basic pepperoni style), I baked it on the stone for about 6 minutes. I then removed the pizza from the pan (which I removed from the oven) and placed the pizza directly on the pizza stone, where it baked for an additional two minutes. To prevent overbrowning of the bottom crust, I finished the pizza with an additional two minutes on the next-to-the-top oven rack position.

The photos below show the finished pizza. As suspected, the top crust was lighter in color than normal, but the oven spring and crumb were very good. The crust itself had nice flavors of fermentation, and had a chewy texture with good “tooth”. Although not entirely visible in the photos, the rim of the crust had a profusion of small blisters characteristic of overfermentation of the dough. The crust wasn’t as crispy as a normal Lehmann crust baked completely on a stone, but it still had a nice texture with a bit of crunch. Overall I found the crust to be quite enjoyable. I was also very pleased with the performance of the cutter pan. It appears to be a good choice when a dough is too soft and extensible to handle in any other manner. The cutter pan is also an improvement over a pizza screen because there is no need to worry about the dough becoming fused to the cutter pan as can easily happen with a screen.

Where the pizza could have been improved was in the use of a better mozzarella cheese. I was using the Wal-Mart Great Value processed mozzarella cheese as part of a series of tests using that brand of cheese. What I have discovered is that it tends to release an orange-colored oil during baking (as shown in the photos) and the melted cheese loses its stretchiness and behaves more like Cheez Wiz.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: MWTC on March 22, 2007, 10:49:59 PM
Peter,

Try adding 6% pure potato flour and see if you don't get the most spotting you've ever seen.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 23, 2007, 01:27:46 PM
Hi Peter,

Just wanted to let you know that I am trying out your recipe that you first started this thread with.  I followed it to a T, even the last addition of the tsp of water.  I must admit, it is a tad involved with the changing of the beaters and all, but hopefully I will have a decent dough at the end of the cycle (I am aiming for a 9 day fermentation).  Come next Wednesday, I will be trying a Varasano type, with a 3 day fermentation, so that I can compare the two, side by side.  If you remember, I started a thread about Varasano a while back, before my scale.  It made the best pizza I have ever eaten, but the hydration came out to 71.85% oddly enough when actually weighed out after my scale purchase.  Post scale purchase, all of my pizzas have gone downhill, low browning, lack of depth, poor rim development etc.  So hopefully I can redeem myself with some decent pics and a more thorough and detailed approach to my madness.  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2007, 02:48:53 PM
I am aiming for a 9 day fermentation

Adam,

Interestingly, I spoke with one of our members recently and he mentioned that when he followed my dough formulation for the 15-day dough I produced, with a few modifications, he couldn't get beyond about 4-5 days. When I later re-read what I posted, everything I said in my post on the subject was consistent with the detailed set of notes I prepared as I made the dough and shortly thereafter.

Today, I started a couple of new test doughs using the same 15-day method. One of the doughs includes white vinegar to see if that prevents the spotting that I have experienced with earlier doughs with long lifespans. In preparing the doughs, I used water as cold as I could get it without freezing it. I placed the formula water in a cup in my freezer until a very thin sheet of ice formed on the surface. By the time I used the water, the temperature was about 32-33 degrees F. I was striving for a finished dough temperature of around 65 degrees F, but because my kitchen temperature is close to 73 degrees F, the best I could get as a finished dough temperature for both doughs was a bit over 71 degrees F. So, I may not know for several days whether 15 days is a realistic lifespan for the doughs. It may be considerably less. I don't recall whether you have said where you live, but if it is warm where you live you might want to check the dough after a few days to be sure that it is OK from a fermentation standpoint.

It will become increasingly more difficult to get long lifespans in doughs as summer approaches, and especially here in Texas where our summers are hotter than most places around the country. I usually like to check the progress of my dough balls as they cold ferment but I am going to try to resist doing this as often with the current dough balls so that I don't raise their temperature. I have placed the dough containers (metal, lidded) at the back of the refrigerator compartment so that they are in the coldest part of the compartment.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 23, 2007, 03:22:30 PM
Peter,

I might try in the future for a longer fermentation ie 15 days, but would be very happy with a 7-9 day window.  Oddly enough, I blew the lid off of my dough this morning as I was snooping around the cooler.  It literally just popped right off, probably not the best sign, but ohhhhhh, the aroma that was released.  The dough is beautifully spread on the bottom of the container (gladware), and there is minimal rise.  So hopefully I am following in your footsteps accurately.  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 23, 2007, 04:00:26 PM
Adam,

The 15-day thing just sorta happened. I was interested in understanding the phenomena involved in a dough that could last that long, and especially the graying/spotting phenomenon, so I kept pushing it day by day waiting to see if the dough would expire. Even at 15 days, the dough looked and felt like it could have gone a few days longer. I also remembered November's post in another thread in which he mentioned that a cold fermented yeasted dough can be safely maintained for about a month, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3980.msg33233.html#msg33233 (Reply 4). What was most interesting about the pizza made with the 15-day dough is that the crust flavor enhancement was no more than a dough with, say, 7 or 8 days. So, such a long-lived dough is somewhat impractical. But I think some of the most interesting and useful knowledge comes from working at the extremes of the spectrum.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 23, 2007, 04:38:55 PM
Just to be sure that the context of the discussion in the other thread carries over here, the one month timeframe is for "safe to eat" dough, not necessarily "good to eat" dough.  A one month old dough ball will probably leave you wanting a glass of strong beverage to wash it down, but if no older than a month, at least the dough won't put you in the hospital.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 24, 2007, 03:58:43 PM
Well Peter,

I obviously did something wrong.  This morning, which would be day #3, my dough was at the double volume mark, and I noticed a slight protrusion of a bubble beginning to show on the top.  So it seems that I won't make it much further.  Since I am not making pizza tonight, I went ahead and degassed (read that on other posts), and will see what happens.  I will admit that the dough did not exhibit the feel that I was expecting.  The crown of the dough was not dry, but on the leathery side.  Dough was firm, but degassed with some pressures.  The aromas are still very pleasing and not soury or tangy in an unpleasant way.  Do you think that I have prolonged my dough?  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 24, 2007, 05:19:25 PM
Adam,

Yeah, it looks like something isn't right. But I would degas the dough anyway to see if that helps matters. This is something I have never had to do because my Lehmann doughs hardly rise at all, or at least in a way that I can visibly tell.

When I am looking for a long dough life, after I prepare the dough with that objective in mind, the typical pattern for my doughs is as follows: When I have finished making the dough, I shape it into a round ball, oil it, and place it in the center of my container, which is usually a metal one with a lid. The round shape of the dough is intentional: I want it to cool down more slowly and to ferment more slowly than if it were flattened into a disk. Using a metal container also plays into that objective. Once the dough goes into the container, the container goes into the refrigerator, at the back. Over the next day or two, the dough ball starts to flatten and spread, but only slightly. If the dough is soft and with a high hydration, it will flatten and spread faster than one that has a lower hydration. After a few more days, the flattening and spreading increases, although there is usually still a space between the perimeter of the dough and the side of the container. Ultimately, the dough spreads enough to touch the side of the container and ride up the side. At this point, it is hard to say whether the dough expanded or not. I would have to use a tall, narrow container to measure that effect.

In some cases, as previously noted, the top of the dough develops spotting and acquires a grayish tone. Thus far, the phenomenon had been limited to high-gluten flour. But, whatever the flour used, I look for the emergence of the bubbles from the upper surface of the dough to serve as an indicator that the dough should be used fairly promptly. Sometimes it is only one bubble, but it can be two or three, maybe about the size of a nickel or a quarter. Even then, I examine the dough carefully. I poke my finger into it to see whether it resists the poking, and I also look to see if the dough is becoming wet or damp. If the dough is still firm and fairly dry, it may last a day or two or three longer even if there is bubbling. I once made a NY style dough following instructions given by member Canadave. I was looking for several days (above 4) out of the dough. But, after 65 hours, the dough looked like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652 (Reply 4). In the succeeding reply, Canadave said the bubbling was normal for his dough formulation. I poked the bubbles with the tip of a sharp knife and then left it alone for the rest of the time. The dough made it to a bit over 5 days, with the final pizza made from that dough looking like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801 (Reply 33). So, just because a bubble appears, that isn’t necessarily the end of the world. You have to look at other conditions of the dough, as I mentioned, or else someone like Canadave has to tell you that what you have experienced is normal.

Please keep us informed as to the results you achieve. I have been meaning to make a Lehmann dough and degas it at some point to see what effect that has on the finished results.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 24, 2007, 05:45:41 PM
The round shape of the dough is intentional: I want it to cool down more slowly and to ferment more slowly than if it were flattened into a disk. Using a metal container also plays into that objective.

Peter,

Is this a typo?  I thought that a metal container increased the cooling down effect.  I understand the slower ferment, but "slower to cool"?  I believed in extended ferments, we want to facilitate the chill speed. Just wondering.  I think that I found my error also.  Possibly the plastic insulated the warmth enough to kick start the yeast to the extent that it was on autopilot for the rise.  And I have to ask November, we all are aware that glass is a better insulator than plastic, plastic more so than metal.  Any actual #'s or real temps as to time that the same products take to cool down?  If it is in fact the insulating factor, can I assume if I drop the finished knead temp a few more degrees, that I will in fact compensate for the insulation, or will the reaction still warm up the dough once the lid is placed on?  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 24, 2007, 06:18:57 PM
And I have to ask November, we all are aware that glass is a better insulator than plastic, plastic more so than metal.  Any actual #'s or real temps as to time that the same products take to cool down?

Glass is not a better insulator than plastic.  Low-density polymers, as can be see in the following link, have an average thermal conductivity of 0.195 W·m-1·K-1, while glass averages 1.0825 W·m-1·K-1, or about five times more thermally conductive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_thermal_conductivities

The time it takes to heat up or cool down depends on two factors: thermal conductivity and heat capacity.  The following page has a list of specific heat capacities.  (In the absence of plastic on a thermal property listing, wood is an approximate analogue.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_heat_capacity

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 24, 2007, 06:23:30 PM
Adam,

Yes, I misstated it. Sorry about that. I want the dough initially to cool down faster, and using the metal container seems to help do that. I sometimes even put the metal container into the refrigerator to pre-cool it before I put the dough ball into it. If the finished dough temperature turns out a bit higher than you wanted, you can even put the container with the dough in the freezer for a while. I have done that a few times and found that I could keep the container with the dough in the freezer for a half hour without incident.

I will have to try flattening the dough ball some time within the container to see how that affects the final results. I usually do that when I put the dough into a freezer bag, particularly if refrigerator space is limited, and the combination seems to work pretty well to cool the dough down.

I know that November has commented before about using metal containers to store dough, and that he prefers plastic, possibly because of the increased likelihood of thermal shock to the dough when using metal. One advantage to using plastic, of course, is that it is transparent or translucent and you can see what is happening to the dough without having to open the container to look.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: November on March 24, 2007, 11:23:42 PM
I know that November has commented before about using metal containers to store dough, and that he prefers plastic, possibly because of the increased likelihood of thermal shock to the dough when using metal.

Peter, that is a correct assessment.

I am soon going to use a glass bowl with a stainless steel lid in a similar manner to the illustration I provided a while back.  I think glass is a wonderful compromise between transparent functionality and good thermal conductance.  What's important to note about Peter's metal container approach, is that there is more to it than rapid initial cooling.  One must also consider keeping the dough cool as the yeast will in fact produce heat as a byproduct of metabolism.  One should choose a container based on how long one plans to keep the dough refrigerated.  The longer the cold fermentation, the better the container should conduct heat so as to pump the heat generated within the dough out as quickly as possible.

Plastic has always served me because I never keep dough in the refrigerator longer than 48 hours, and even then, I only cold ferment during a blue lunar eclipse so it's not a big deal anyway.  Soon I will have a digitally temperature controlled environment just for proofing dough.  My aim with this device will be to modify the electronics so that it can interface a computer through USB, and I can program it with a cooling and warming schedule that looks something like this:

1) Hold at room temperature for 30 minutes
2) Gradually decrease temperature to 50 F within 30 minutes
3) Hold at 50 F for 16 hours
4) Gradually increase temperature to 86 F within 2 hours
5) Make a really loud and annoying sound

That way I don't have to be bothered with taking steps to manually care for the dough, in and out, back and forth.

- red.november
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 25, 2007, 09:53:56 AM
Well Peter,

Thar she blows!  Unfortunately overnight the lid popped off my container, and the dough grew an unsightly crust.  Now true, I probably could have cut the crust off and still used it, but this was at 4:30am, and I had no coffee in me.  Besides the unlidded dough picked up my Teriyaki Chicken that I BBQ'd the day prior.  I did play with a piece though, and was it heaven!  Super elastic, unbelievable stretching capability!!!!!  I never had a dough act like this before.  So, on Wednesday, I plan to remake this dough with slight modifications:  using plastic wrap under the lid as a safeguard from crusting, trying to lower the overall temperature a few more degrees, flashing it in the freezer for 30 minutes, the addition of a poolish (10%), and lowering the yeast amount by a tenth of a percent to .3%.  Hopefully I will have some results for you come Friday night.  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 25, 2007, 11:54:45 AM
Adam,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I recently made two new test dough balls, one with vinegar and one without. The first photo below shows both dough balls at almost exactly 2 days of cold fermentation. The dough ball on the left is the one with the vinegar. Both dough balls are of the same weight (15.40 ounces) and are otherwise as close to each other as I could make them in a nonscientific home kitchen environment. The second photo is of the dough without the vinegar. I showed this photo to more accurately depict the spacing around the dough ball. As you can see, the dough balls are not exhibiting a tendency to "blow". All's quiet on the Texas front, at least for the time being.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 25, 2007, 12:17:17 PM
Well Peter,

Your pics do ease one of my worries.  My dough ball also had a pebbled texture, and I thought that I had done something wrong.  This perception was due to having made, and looked at Varasano's pics...his dough is silky smooth looking.  After searching my notes, I might lower the yeast further...another .1% to .2% since my "poolish/preferment/biga?" is exhibiting nice bubbles and a nice aroma, so it should pull up the yeast percentage to what I desire.  Science question....container size.  Will a larger container width promote a quicker rise?  Since the dough will spread, there is less "dough pressure/weight?" or downward pressure to slow rise.  Will a more narrow container prohibit or decrease a rise...more dough weight?  In turn, when I make a consomme, I use a tall narrow pot, this slows evaporation and increases the flavor...water percolates through the flavor raft longer, thus increasing flavor.  So will the gas bubble increase the flavor of the dough if it has to travel longer in the dough to reach the surface?  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 25, 2007, 12:41:27 PM
Adam,

One of the things you have to always keep in mind is that a basic, low-level KitchenAid mixer is not a particularly good machine in my opinion to knead pizza dough. It would be possible to knead the dough longer and reduce the "pebbling" effect but then you may end up with an overkneaded dough. I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

Jeff's dough will always look better than what I can make with my machine. He is using a DLX, which does a much better job kneading dough than my mixer. The whole objective of this thread is predicated on trying to coax better performance out of my KitchenAid machine. The thread has little value to those who have DLXs, Santos mixers, or even the KitchenAid mixers with the spiral hook.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on March 25, 2007, 12:51:41 PM
I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

I also noticed that the pebbling effect did diminish.  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 25, 2007, 01:03:53 PM
Adam,

I just remembered that I didn't address your questions on the size and shape of the container. I have wondered the same things but don't know the answers. In my case, I just used some empty fruitcake pans (no cruel jokes, please ;D) that I had on hand. They are 7" in diameter, which is a bit less than commercial dough retarding and proofing pans, such as shown here: http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough_Retarding_and_Proofing_Pans.htm. Since commercial proofing/retarding pans are metal, that was perhaps one of the reasons why I didn't think of things like thermal shock when I first started using my empty fruitcake tins.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2007, 10:14:57 AM
A few posts ago, at Reply 105 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41569.html#msg41569), I posted photos of a couple of test dough balls that I had prepared to see if I could recreate the phenomenon of spotting of the doughs after several days of fermentation and also to see whether the use of vinegar would prevent the spotting. The dough balls were prepared along the lines discussed at Reply 57 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092) except that for the two test doughs I used a lower hydration, around 62%, and water that was around 33-34 degrees F. Otherwise, the two dough formulations were very similar. The basic dough making procedures were essentially identical to those described in Reply 57.

Yesterday, 15 days after making the two dough balls, I could not observe significant spotting of the two dough balls. There was very slight spotting of the dough ball without the vinegar but the dough ball with the vinegar had noticeably more spotting, although nowhere as near pronounced as I have experienced before with the long-lived dough balls made using the new KitchenAid dough making method. I have posted photos below of the two dough balls although the differences between them may not be entirely visible (the first photo is of the dough ball without the vinegar and the second photo is of the dough ball with the vinegar). The greater degree of spotting with the dough ball using the vinegar clearly puts in doubt whether using vinegar is a preventive for spotting. Since I concluded that the purpose of the test was essentially over, I decided to make a pizza with the dough without the vinegar to see how it would perform. I am keeping the other dough ball with the vinegar in the refrigerator for a few more days, at which time I plan to use it to make another pizza. I will be most interested in whether the vinegar will be detectable in the finished crust.

I might add that there was some bubbling at the surfaces of the two dough balls during their fermentation. A couple of dime-sized bubbles formed after about three days at the upper surface of the dough ball with the vinegar, and a similar bubble formed at the upper surface of the dough ball without the vinegar after about 5 days. However, since the dough balls were still very firm to the touch, even though flattened, I simply pinched the bubbles to allow the gas to escape. There was no need for suturing. In fact, the pinched surfaces healed after a few more days and were no longer as readily detectable. The fact that both dough balls went on to last many more days is evidence that the occurrence of bubbling is not necessarily a sign that the dough has overfermented and must be promptly used. The fact that the dough balls (flattened) were still firm appears to be the more important condition. Even after 15 days, the doughs were still firm.

I prepared and baked the pizza along the same lines as discussed in Reply 57. I used a different cheese this time (a blend of Grande whole-milk mozzarella cheese and Provolone cheese) and I added some slices of green pepper and omitted the mushrooms, but otherwise the pizza was prepared as I did the pizza described in Reply 57. The dough was allowed to warm up to around 63 degrees F prior to handling. It was fairly extensible but no more so than is typical of the many Lehmann doughs I have made. The dough was stretched out to 14”.

I thought the finished pizza was excellent. It had decent coloration of the upper crust, and the rim, although modest in size, was chewy and crispy, with a lot of “tooth” and with a profusion of small blisters. The crumb had a texture and stretchiness similar to those I have achieved before using natural starters. And the crust flavors were there in great abundance, along with a detectable sweetness even though no sugar was added to the dough. My overall perception is that the crust had flavor and texture characteristics that I have found before in high quality artisanal breads, but rarely in pizza crusts, quite possibly because most doughs are not held for more than a few days. The last two photos show the finished pizza and a typical slice.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SemperFi on April 08, 2007, 10:52:39 AM
Peter,

Unbelievable experiment.  I wonder how your second pizza will taste also, and just how close to a 30 day window you might get.  I do have a question about your pepper slices though.  When I do it, I have to put them on top of all other toppings to ensure that I won't have an abundance of trapped moisture.  Yet, I can see that you put yours under the cheese, and i don't see any evidence of trapped moisture or waterlogging.  I do slice them thin, but the trouble remains.  Any thoughts?  Adam
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2007, 11:20:05 AM
Adam,

I will perhaps take it a day at a time with the second dough (the one with the vinegar), and use it if and when it looks like it is at the end of the line. I wasn't planning to go for 30 days, but now that you mentioned it, maybe I will go longer than I was planning.

As for the peppers, I sliced them in rings, which I prefer because I think it creates a more "gourmet" appearance than a diced version, which many of the chains use. To reduce the water content, I put the pepper slices on a paper towel and microwaved them for about 30 seconds and then dried the peppers with the paper towel. You do lose some of the nice green color when microwaving but that’s the tradeoff I was willing to accept to reduce the moisture content on the pizza. In dressing the pizza, after putting on the sauce I put a first (thin) layer of cheese, then the peppers, and a final layer of cheese. I usually sauté veggies like peppers, onions and mushrooms (although I also like raw mushrooms on pizzas), but the ideas for pre-processing veggies come from trolling the PMQ Think Tank and reading things like these posts: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=1954&highlight=peppers and
http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?t=2071&highlight=peppers.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Bryan S on April 08, 2007, 11:28:05 AM

I just about always include some oil in my doughs and on the outer surfaces so it came to me as a big surprise to find that the all-purpose dough I made the other day and reported on earlier in this thread was perhaps the best, or one of the best, doughs I have ever made in terms of having an almost perfect balance between elasticity and extensibility. And that dough had no oil in it at all, and just a small amount on the outer surface. I might have been happy to give credit to the new dough making method I have been using and writing about, but are there other factors besides oil that might have been involved? The formulation included only flour, water (65%), salt (1%) and yeast (0.25% IDY). The dough did ferment at room temperature for a few hours before degassing and placing it in the refrigerator, but otherwise the dough preparation was fairly standard (salt dissolved in water, flour and IDY added, etc.)

Peter

Peter, I made a recent batch of dough without oil in the dough, just on the outside to keep it from sticking to the bowl. As you, I also found that the dough without oil was very easy to work with, and it stayed a even thickness when stretching unlike oil dough which in my experience has a tendency to get very thin in spots. This dough reminded me of the dough i used to make pizzas at the shop i worked at almost 30 years ago. I had made 2 dough balls and used one at the 5 day mark. The other one is still in the fridge and is 7 days old today. I make all my dough the same way. I put room temp spring water in the KA bowl, add sugar (if using some) salt, and IDY. I then sift the flour and after letting the yeast rehydrate for 5 min (i know it's not necessary with IDY but i do it any way because of my Home Brewing habits) i add the flour and mix with the spiral dough hook on speed 2 just till it comes together. I then let it sit for 15 min and then add oil (if using it) do a final knead on speed 2 for 3-4 min. I then weigh out the dough balls to 20 oz hand knead in to a smooth ball, oil and place in a gladeware round container and in to the beer fridge (34-36 degrees) it goes for the cold ferment. I get very little rise in the fridge with my dough. This was my best tasting crust so far and i think the one that's still in the fridge will be even better yet. Peter, thanks for all your work you do here.  8) Here's my recipe for the no oil dough.

Flour (100%) 24.56 oz
Water (62%) 15.22 oz
IDY (0.33%) 0.76 tsp.
Salt (2%) 2.5 tsp.

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2007, 12:24:51 PM
Bryan,

The dough formulation you quoted in your post essentially came from Evelyne Slomon based on things she said on another thread about the way that classic NY style doughs used to be made by the old masters at Totonno’s, Lombardi’s and John’s when all-purpose flour was the most common flour of choice, along with bread flour and before high-gluten flours became more readily available.  She also recommends that IDY used to make small amounts of dough at home be rehydrated in water, so what you are doing is consistent with her recommendation. I normally don’t do that myself because I am trying to prolong the life of the dough by adding the IDY at the end of the dough making process, and for this I want the IDY to be dry. I also don’t use an autolyse or autolyse-like rest period because one of my goals was to keep the total dough preparation process once the water goes into the bowl to about 10-12 minutes. I may add a little bit of delay when I switch from whisk to flat beater to C-hook, so I may be getting a little bit of rest also, but it is still within the 10-12 minute timeframe. As for oil in the dough, I like it and miss it when it is left out.

Based on what you gave as your current dough formula, and assuming that you are using sea salt, I get the following from the Lehmann dough calculator at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html, for two dough balls, which I assume are for 16” pizzas (thickness factor = 0.10044):

Flour (100%):
Water (61.9797%):
IDY (0.32878%):
Salt (2.13126%):
Total (164.43974%):
Single Ball:
696.24 g  |  24.56 oz | 1.53 lbs
431.53 g  |  15.22 oz | 0.95 lbs
2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
14.84 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.66 tsp | 0.89 tbsp
1144.89 g | 40.38 oz | 2.52 lbs | TF = N/A
572.45 g | 20.19 oz | 1.26 lbs

Peter

Edit: Added thickness factor
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Bryan S on April 08, 2007, 01:27:21 PM
Peter, yes 16" pies, sea salt and i used 50/50 mix of Harvest King and KABF. I was surprised that the lack of oil produced such different results when working the dough. I would have thought the opposite, and that was my main reason for posting. I know you like to have all the info on ones recipe and process so that's why i posted the info. I did not mean to hijack or butt in to this thread.  :-[
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2007, 03:25:05 PM
Bryan,

Your post was not out of line. One of the things I have tried to do with the new KitchenAid dough method is to apply it to different dough formulations, no matter the ingredients. One of the dough formulations was the oil-less NY style dough with respect to which you offered your comments but I have also used it for the basic Lehmann dough formulation, a Little Caesar's clone dough and a Sbarro's clone dough. In due time, I plan to use the method with a natural starter and 00 flours. But what is really behind the thread is the exploration of concepts and principles, such as using sifted flour (which you have been doing), when to add ingredients like yeast and oil and in what overall sequence, how to improve the hydration of flour, the effects of water temperature, dough bubbles and spotting phenomena, suitable containers to store dough, and so on. Already, I feel that I have learned a lot that I didn’t know or understand before and maybe will be able to make better pizza doughs because of it and also to modify and improve existing formulations. 

BTW, as you will note, I edited my last post to indicate the thickness factor for your dough formula for the benefit of those who may want to try out your recipe and prefer to work with that method in using the Lehmann dough calculator.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2007, 06:05:10 PM
In Reply 110 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42160.html#msg42160, I presented a status report on two test doughs that I had made to see if I could recreate the spotting phenomenon that I had experienced in earlier doughs using the new KitchenAid method described in this thread. One of the dough balls included vinegar which, according to John Correll in his tome, Encyclopizza, eliminates or delays spotting (which he says is due to the harmless oxidation of bran specks in the dough). The second dough ball was essentially identical to the first dough ball but included no vinegar. When I did not detect any significant spotting after both dough balls were 15 days old, I ended the test as to the dough ball without the vinegar. I decided at that time to make a pizza out of that dough (as reported in the above post), and to let the dough with the vinegar develop more age and to monitor whether any spotting would occur as it further aged.

Yesterday, after 23 days, I decided to use the “vinegar” dough even though it did not show any outward signs of imminent decline, like substantial softening of the dough, excessive wetness, or the appearance of bubbles at the outer surface. As shown in the first photo below, there was an increase in spotting in the “vinegar” dough between days 15 and 23, but it was still not at the level that I had experienced with much younger doughs.

I was certainly curious to know what the crust made from the “vinegar” dough would taste like after 23 days of cold fermentation. My initial observations were that the dough was still firm to the touch, and I detected the odors of fermentation as soon as I opened the metal container in which the dough was stored. Also, the bottom of the dough that was in direct contact with the metal bottom of the container had a profusion of small holes throughout the entire bottom surface that created a porous overall effect that was unlike anything I had seen before. Yet, after further flattening the dough and dusting top and bottom with bench flour, I was still able to shape and stretch the dough out to its final size of 14”. The dough was quite extensible but I had no problem handling it, and it did not exhibit any tendency to want to stick to the peel.

The dough skin was dressed with a standard 6-in-1 pizza sauce, a Grande whole-milk mozzarella/Provolone shredded cheese blend, sautéed and raw sliced mushrooms, sautéed green pepper slices, and pepperoni slices. The pizza was baked for about 6 minutes on a pizza stone (at the bottom oven rack position) that had been preheated for about an hour at about 500-550 degrees F. The pizza was then moved to the second-from-the-top oven rack position for an additional 1-2 minutes to get additional top crust browning and to help finish cooking the toppings, especially the vegetable toppings.

The second and third photos below show the finished pizza. The top crust had decent browning even though no sugar had been added to the dough. So, even after 23 days, there was adequate residual sugar in the dough to support crust browning. Unlike past doughs, however, I did not detect sweetness in the crust. By contrast, the 15-day crust still had sweetness in the crust, although it too was less than I have achieved with younger doughs up to about 8 days of cold fermentation. There was also good oven spring and a normal rim size, a “stretchy” crumb reminiscent of a sourdough crumb, and the pizza had a distinctive overall artisanal appearance with a profusion of small blisters in the rim. The biggest difference between the crust of this pizza and the last one I made after 15 days was in the flavor of the crust. It was potent and quite distinctive. Whether it was the vinegar or copious amounts of flavor-contributing byproducts of fermentation, or a combination of both, is hard to say since I had never before made a pizza dough using vinegar and this was the first 23-day old dough I have ever made and used.

In assessing the results, it seems clear that November was correct to question the efficacy of vinegar in the dough to prevent or delay spotting. Maybe the vinegar did have the effect of slowing down the fermentation, as noted by John Correll, but after 23 days it was hard to tell whether the vinegar contributed to or inhibited the coloration of the crust. The crust did appear to be a bit lighter than the last one but it is possible that there was less residual sugar at this point to separately contribute to crust coloration. Also, I had more toppings on the pizza this time (substantially more than I normally use) and that may have affected the bake and the final top crust coloration.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2007, 08:41:40 AM
In the latest of my experiments to explore the dough spotting phenomenon, I decided to make a dough to test the effects of oxygen, or lack thereof to be more precise, on a dough during fermentation. As previously noted, John Correll stated that the cause of spotting is the oxidation of the bran flakes in the dough. So, I wondered what would happen if a dough were allowed to ferment in the absence of oxygen (air), that is, in an anaerobic environment.

To test out this concept, I used my FoodSaver unit to seal a dough (a basic Lehmann dough for a 12” pizza) in a pouch and to put the dough so entombed in the refrigerator for several days. While I did not take a photo of the dough outside of the pouch, the dough that went into the pouch before the vacuum and sealing operations was round, and the ensuing evacuation of the air caused the dough ball to flatten somewhat. Over the course of the next several days, not much happened to the dough. This led me to believe that perhaps the dough wouldn’t be able to break out of its straitjacket. But after about Day 6, the dough started to flatten and push outwardly in a lateral direction, and the upper surface started to open up and develop large fissures as it tried to expand outwardly. By contrast, the bottom of the dough was quite normal, with only very very small bubbles.

The outward expansion and opening up of the upper surface of the dough continued gradually until Day 15, when I decided to end the experiment. By this time, the dough has pretty much expanded laterally to fill up a good part of the space in the pouch, and I could see a volume of gas trapped in one corner. I also saw for the first time moisture that condensed on the inner top surface of the pouch. The first two photos show the dough at this juncture, in a top view and a side view. There was no spotting of the dough whatsoever. The color of the dough was perfectly normal—the same as when I put the dough in the bag to be sealed. This leads me to believe that oxygen (air) may be a material contributing factor in the dough spotting phenomenon.

I cut the pouch to examine the dough more carefully. The third photo shows the dough resting on the bottom of the pouch. As soon as I cut the pouch, I got a good whiff of the volatile byproducts of fermentation. I carefully removed the dough and placed it on a floured work surface. Rather than throwing the dough away, I decided to make a pizza out of it, mainly to satisfy my curiosity. I dusted both sides with flour--the least I could get away with--but I could see that it was possible to lift and handle and stretch the dough at this point even though it was quite extensible. I decided to let the dough warm up at room temperature in the usual fashion for about an hour and a half. By that time, the dough was even more extensible and not amenable to hand stretching off of the counter. So I simply stretched it out on my floured peel and dressed it. The pizza so dressed (with 6-in-1 sauce, a shredded blend of Grande mozzarella/Provolone cheeses, and pepperoni slices) was baked on a pizza stone (at the lowest oven rack position) that had been preheated to around 500-550 degrees F for about an hour. After about 6 minutes, I moved the pizza to the second-from-the-top oven rack position and baked the pizza for about a minute and a half more to get increased top crust browning.

The pizza was actually quite tasty. It was very chewy, with not a great deal of oven spring, and it was very crispy in the thin parts of the rim. And it had decent crust coloring. It was not up to par with the other pizzas based on 15-days doughs (and less) that I have made and described in this thread, so I would not recommend it. However, it would be interesting to see how an anaerobic dough would perform at say, 6-10 days.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: DanCole42 on September 17, 2008, 04:43:44 PM
Peter-
What would be the best time to freeze a long-fermenting dough?

1) Immediately after kneading?
2) At some point during the cold ferment?
3) After the cold ferment is done (i.e. the time you would ordinarily remove the dough for shaping and cooking)?
4) After shaping?
5) After topping?
6) After a quick-cook in the oven, dough only?
7) After a quick-cook in the oven, dough with topping?
8) After everything has been fully cooked. Essentially freezing the leftovers?

I would GUESS #3 makes the most sense, especially since I intend to give the dough as a gift to a fellow pizza lover who would rather top and cook the dough himself.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on September 17, 2008, 06:11:57 PM
Dan,

As I have noted several times before on this forum, I am not personally a fan of making and using frozen doughs. However, if making a frozen dough were my objective, I would come up with a dough formulation designed specifically for that purpose. More specifically, I would use a medium strength flour such as bread flour (or a less strong flour supplemented with vital wheat gluten), a lower than normal hydration, ice cold water, double or triple the normal amount of yeast (and rehydrate it, even if IDY), more salt, a bit of sugar (or honey for its rheology benefits), ascorbic acid (Vitamin C), and I would divide and freeze the dough balls as soon as possible after making (or maybe after a brief rest period).

One of the reasons I came up with the alternative KitchenAid dough making method was to produce a dough that ferments slowly over a long period of time in the refrigerator. If you think about it, the alternative method can be considered a substitute for freezing a dough because timewise the fermentation period is similar to the period of time that is normally recommended in a home freezer setting for freezing a dough before using—which is about 10 days, and no longer than two weeks. The advantage of the alternative method is that the dough develops a lot of by-products of fermentation while it is in the refrigerator that contribute to the taste, texture and aroma of the finished crust. By contrast, a frozen dough, or at least one frozen at the outset, develops no by-products of fermentation while it is frozen. It is only after thawing and warming up before using that by-products of fermentation are produced. If you’d like to learn more about some of the recommended procedures for making frozen doughs, you might take a look at Reply 272 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428.

Rather than making and freezing some version of a dough made using the alternative dough making method, I think I would consider making a skin using that method and par-baking it for later use. Once par-baked, the crust can be frozen, refrigerated, or kept at room temperature for a few days. For details on how to make a par-baked crust, you might take a look at Reply 120 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061. As you will note there, it is possible to dress and freeze a par-baked skin, or even the dressed unbaked skin, but I did not try either of those options. I opted instead to dress and finish baking the par-baked crust at a later time. As you might expect, the par-baked crust will not rise anymore when baked for the “second” time, and the crust can dry out some more during the second bake. However, all things considered, the overall results will generally be good.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Mendocino on October 14, 2008, 09:21:33 PM
Hey Peter

I am very new to this forum, having made deep dish sicilian style (family recipe) through my highschool college years. 

Bola Bola has recently inspried me to trying my hand at NY style pies.  Since I am a scientist by trade, and know particularly nothing about this style, I chose your first post as to where I would begin.  I chose to duplicate your recipe except I would make 4 dough's utilizing 4 different flours: Caputa, KA High gluten, KA Bread flour, and KA all purpose.  I plan on making all the pies with the same toppings/sauce (undecided), and try them all in my new 2stone Pro, perhaps after 24-36 hours of frige time.  I have nearly every can tomato in my arsenal. 

If I have hijacked this thread, I will start one of my own.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Jake
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2008, 09:40:36 PM
Jake,

If you plan to use the methods and techniques described in the first post of this thread, there is no reason why you shouldn't post your results in this thread since it is the methods and techniques I described that are paramount. However, if you plan to use only the recipe, even with different flours, then you might find it better to start a new thread under the NY Style board of the forum where it will be more readily noticed by the members. Even if you decide to use the methods and techniques of the opening post, you should still feel free to start a new thread if you would like to highlight your specific efforts. Please let me know how you will proceed. 

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2009, 11:09:22 AM
Recently, at Reply 722 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg65487.html#msg65487, I described a modified Lehmann NY style dough formulation that utilizes many of the principles of dough making described in this thread for achieving a long, cold fermentation of several days, in this case, 12 days. One of the key features of the dough was using active dry yeast (ADY) in dry rather than rehydrated form. Earlier in this thread, at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg37060.html#msg37060, I described the use of ADY in a dry form, but adding the ADY at the end of the dough making process rather than combining the ADY dry with the flour at the outset. Also, in the experiment described in Reply 35 I used a higher hydration (65%), which no doubt allowed the dough to ferment faster than in the case of my latest experiment reported in Reply 722 referenced above. The latest experiment demonstrates that it is possible to use ADY in nonrehydrated form and still get good results. However, I add the caution that such use should perhaps be limited to only those applications where it is desired to achieve unusually long dough lives, for example, in excess of six days. For other applications, my recommendation is the standard one that applies to using ADY, and that is to rehydrate ADY in a small amount of warm water at around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes.

The photo below is one of the photos that I took showing the finished pizza using the dry ADY method.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Mendocino on January 05, 2009, 11:00:58 AM
Hey Pete-zza, that looks great.

For the New Years Winter Ice Classic, Red Wings vs Hawks, I decided to do a side by side with olive oils.  I used Classico, trader Joes extra virgin, and Lucini's (Red November's reccomendation via another thread).  I have to say I was quite surprised, as the Lucini's was much chewier, with a near perfect bubbling.  The others were good, but not up to the caliper of the Lucini's. 

Thanks for the great thread as this method has been a staple for me on my PizzaPro.

Jake
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2009, 11:12:33 AM
Jake,

Thanks. And thanks for bringing the Lucini oil back to our attention. With a commercial recipe like the Lehmann recipe, I usually don't use the highest quality oils, salts, etc. That is something I perhaps should pay more attention to.

Have you been using the various principles and techniques described in this thread to make doughs that can last for several days in the refrigerator? And, if so, what principles and techniques have you found to work the best for you, and how many days do you shoot for? In the pizza shown, I got 12 days, and I expected more residual sugar in the dough to contribute to more crust coloration. To compensate, I used a longer bake time, which resulted in the cheese developing a thin crust, which shows up in the photos in orange. When you conduct experiments like the one described, you can't always tell what you are going to get, and you usually end up improvising to get the best results under the circumstances. In most cases, it takes a few tries to work out the kinks and get things just right.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Mendocino on January 05, 2009, 11:28:40 AM
Pete-zza

Actually, I have been doing either a 1-2 day fermentation.  I tried to go longer in the past, however I have a full household, and the firdge is opened/closed ALOT during an average day, and sometimes I even find the door cracked open.  Some of my doughs have even progressed to the point of running out of my container's, and going dry.  I now have settled on a 24 hr, until I get a dorm fridge for the garage.

I have been using your original exp from the beginning with two slight mod's.  After the yeast is added I add all remaining ingredient and paddle on "2" for 2-3'.  I next add the hook and go 5 full minutes at 2 as well.  The texture greatly improved for me bumping the speeds/times, since it is rather cold now and the dough doesn't heat up much at all.  I suspect this will change when temps here in Sacramento hit the high 90's again in the summer.  I have also found that with your original dough recipe, the KA high gluten organic baked at 650 (give or take) on my 2stone for 3' is perfect. 

Oh yea- I also used fine sea salt, you know us Californians  :) .  Perhaps I will give Kosher a try

I think I am going to play with hydrations/sugar and higher temps on my next go rounds.  They above dough doesn't do too well above 750, as crust will overcook, prior to the middle being finished.

Jake
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2009, 11:58:17 AM
Jake,

In my case, I made the dough and put it into the refrigerator a day before leaving town for the Xmas holidays. The next time I checked the dough was seven days later, when I returned home. So, there was no opening and closing of the refrigerator door. Maybe I could have used the dough at that time but when I saw that not much had happened to the dough in terms of expansion and the spotting was not at an advanced stage, I decided to let the dough go longer. The good news is that it is possible to make a dough that far in advance and get results that are better than a dough with much less fermentation time. I had a couple of leftover slices of the pizza today for lunch and the crust flavors were much more complex than what I would normally get with a dough with a couple of days of fermentation under its belt.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BillE on March 19, 2009, 09:20:21 PM
Hi Pete-zza,

I've been reading this thread with great interest, along with the massive Tom Lehmann NY Style Pizza thread, and I’m very curious to try out the Lehmann's NY Style dough.
For the past few years, I've been using Reinhart's NY Style Pizza Dough after experiencing mediocre success with many dough recipes from various books and the Internet. I have been very happy with Reinhart's NY Style dough from "American Pie", however, after viewing the Lehmann's forum on this site, I knew I would have to try out his recipe, using the dough conversion formulas for 14 and 16 inch pizzas that you’ve kindly contributed to the forum...saving me a lot of work!!
1) I wanted to know, Pete-zza, if you recommend using the new whisk, paddle, hook technique that you devised for this thread to prepare Lehmann's traditional recipe which calls for a 24-48 hour slow-rise in the refrigerator?  Or is your new technique meant only for the 6, 7 day and beyond slow refrigerated fermentation that you've been experimenting with?

2) Also, I would like to try out the Lehmann’s dough recipe, using your new mixing technique to ferment the dough for about 3 to 4 days in the refrigerator, and not beyond that. This is because I want to experience the taste of fairly long fermented dough without the dough picking up that grayish or purplish tint to it. Could you provide a basic template for me in regards to a 3 to 4 day dough with recommended ingredient list and amounts for me to experiment with, along with proper water temperature? 
Also, would you recommend using sugar in such a recipe, or would 3 to 4 day fermentation in the fridge bring out enough of the flour’s natural sweetness. I definitely would like to continue using oil in my dough.

Needless to say, I use a Kitchen Aid mixer for my dough preparation. I also bake my pizza on a 1/2" thick pizza stone in a 525 degree oven.

Thanks
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 19, 2009, 10:48:35 PM
BillE,

I commend you for having the stamina and fortitude to read both of those threads. I suspect you and I are the only two people on the planet who have done this.

For your information, I recently converted the Reinhart NY style dough formulation to a baker's percent format, at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.msg69678.html#msg69678. With the baker's percent format, you should be able to make any number of Reinhart NY style pizzas of any desired size. You can also change the crust thickness if you'd like. If you need help on this, let me know by posting in the abovereferenced thread.

The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a more classic NY style than the Reinhart dough formulation in that it uses no sugar and very little oil (1%). By contrast, the Reinhart NY style dough formulation calls for over 6% oil and either 2.8% sugar or about 5% honey. In my opinion, the Reinhart dough formulation produces a pizza with a thin NY crust but with taste and texture characteristics of an American style. Consequently, the Lehmann NY crust will be quite different than a Reinhart NY crust. I mention this since if you like sweetness and tenderness in your crusts, you are quite likely to prefer the Reinhart version.

The alternative method using the whisk, flat beater attachment and dough hook was intended to be a broad and generic method that can be used for most doughs that have fairly high hydration levels (this pretty much excludes very low hydration doughs used to make certain cracker-style pizzas). As such, it can be used to make a Lehmann NY style dough that will have a fermentation window of 1 to 4 days, which includes the 3-4 day example that you mentioned. Whatever the duration within the above window, however, I would add the yeast (IDY) to the flour at the outset rather than at a later stage, which was a technique I developed to get much longer fermentation times. For a 3-4 day fermentation window, I would use water directly out of the refrigerator, with the objective of getting a finished dough temperature that is somewhat below normal (the normal range is 75-80 degrees F for a standard home refrigerator) so that the fermentation window can be extended out to 3-4 days without the dough overfermenting. If you can achieve the lower finished dough temperature, you should be able to get away with using no sugar in the dough. Of course, this means that you may have to do some experimenting to determine if this can be done in your particular operating environment. Alternatively, you can just assume that some sugar should be used and add it to the dough as insurance. About 1-2% should be enough for this purpose.

If you can tell me what size and number of pizzas you would like and the desired window of fermentation (I assume it is 3-4 days), I should be able to come up with a dough formulation for you to try out. It would also help to know whether it is warm or cool this time of year where you live since that will give me a better idea as to the water temperature to use. For example, if you can tell me your kitchen temperature this time of year, that would be a big help. For best results, I recommend that you use either bread flour or a high-gluten flour, which are the same options available with the Reinhart NY style dough formulation. I will need to know which flour you elect to use so that I can adjust the hydration to be commensurate with the flour used. If you would like to increase the amount of oil above 1%, this is also something that can be done easily. However, I don't think that I would go above 3%. But that is up to you.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BillE on March 20, 2009, 09:32:14 AM
Pete-zza,

Thank you so much for your quick response.
 
As far as my stamina and fortitude in reading the Lehmann thread and this thread, I had no choice in the matter; it was like trying to put down a good novel. I was intrigued by the progress you've made with the Lehmann's dough over the years along with the interesting input from various members of this "pizza forum to end all pizza forums". I kind of related it to my own experiences in trying to make decent pizza at home, which started out as pulling 12" hockey pucks from my oven, to making pizza that I find more desirable than the average pizza joint in Queens, NY and Long Island [where I grew up], New York City [where I started working], and New Jersey [where I moved to after getting married].
I first went to Defara's in Brooklyn a couple of years ago after hearing about it from food writer David Rosengarten in an article he had written on his favorite New York pizza parlors. Tasting Defara's pizza brought me back to a time when I was growing up during the late 1960's and early 1970's. Quality pizza like Defara's was very common back then as most pizza joints were family-owned with a pizzaiolo who would fling his pies in the air; something I don't see anymore. I would assume that the quality of ingredients was much higher, as well. Heck, some of the best pizza I ate at during that period were small non-descript neighborhood joints which had old, ash-embedded Bari ovens. I believe that the ash in those metal ovens helped contribute to the unique taste in the crusts, just as an old well-seasoned cast-iron skillet or wok would do. Defara's oven is like that, as well.
I remember this 'hole in wall joint' in Grand Central Station back in the late seventies that consistently served one of the best pizzas I ever had. Alas, it's been gone for about 20 years now. 
Pizza has gotten so bad in the last 30 years or so, that I feel I have no choice in the matter as far as making my own. You really have to do your homework to know where to go in New York for a decent slice of pizza these days. The great Peter Reinhart was a lifesaver to me with his New York Style dough. However, after viewing a three-part video of Tom Lehmann showing his pizza-making method in the factory, and the vastly different make-up of his dough recipe from the Reinhart recipe, along with your inexhaustible, informative contribution in the Lehmann thread, I knew I had to give the Lehmann’s dough a whirl.

To answer your questions about my New Jersey pizza environment –
 
Outside temperature is averaging from low to upper 40's. The 50's should be right around the corner since today is the first day of spring.
Average kitchen temperature is 72 degrees.
I always use KA Bread Flour and ADY. [f you think IDY would work better, I can order some SAF instant yeast from King Arthur Flour].
I own a 14 by 16 pizza stone and mostly make 14" pizzas with it. I'd like to stay with 14" pizzas.
As far as desired amount of oil, I’d like to try 1%. I can always increase it to 2%, if needed.
My targeted fermentation window would be 3-4 days.
And since you said it was ok to use your new (whisk, paddle, dough hook) method, that’s the method I’d like to use.

Thanks so much for your help,

BillE


Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2009, 10:56:05 AM
BillE,

Based on the information you provided, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation for one 14" pizza and a second one for two 14" pizzas:

Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation for One 14" Pizza
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (0.27%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.02%):
245.16 g  |  8.65 oz | 0.54 lbs
152 g  |  5.36 oz | 0.34 lbs
0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.77 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.54 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
404.56 g | 14.27 oz | 0.89 lbs | TF = 0.0927
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.09; bowl residue compensation = 3%

Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation for Two 14" Pizzas
King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (0.27%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Total (165.02%):
Single Ball:
490.31 g  |  17.29 oz | 1.08 lbs
303.99 g  |  10.72 oz | 0.67 lbs
1.32 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
8.58 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
4.9 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
809.11 g | 28.54 oz | 1.78 lbs | TF = 0.0927
404.56 g | 14.27 oz | 0.89 lbs
Note: Nominal thickness factor =0.09; bowl residue compensation = 3%

You will not from the above tables that the nominal thickness factor I selected is 0.09. That is typical for a NY street style pizza and a bit thicker than a NY elite style. For comparison purposes, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.117-0.119 for the Reinhart NY style dough formulation you have been using, which is considered a "medium" thickness value. The above formulations also call for using ADY instead of IDY. As you know, you will have to rehydrate the ADY in a small amount of the formula water (about 1/4 cup should be sufficient), at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. The rehydrated ADY can then be added to the rest of the formula water or to the other ingredients in the mixer bowl. To compensate for dough losses during the preparation of the dough, which tend to be higher than normal when using the whisk/flat beater/dough hook method, I used a bowl residue compensation of 3%. What I usually do after the dough has been made is to weigh the dough and trim it back if it is greater than the calculated value. In your case, the calculated dough weight for one 14" pizza should be 3.14159 x 7 x 7 x 0.09 = 13.86 ounces; for two dough balls, the weight should be twice that, or 27.71 ounces.

For the water temperature, I think you can use about 72 degrees F. Ideally, you would like to get a finished dough temperature in the 75-80 degrees F range for a home setting using a standard refrigerator. However, that will depend on how fast you prepare the dough. In your case, I would add the portion of the water (at around 72 degrees F) not used to rehydrate the ADY to the mixer bowl after you have rehydrated the ADY so that the water doesn't warm up while the ADY is rehydrating. You should also be able to add the oil to the water at the same time. Some people prefer to add the oil later in the dough mixing/kneading process, which is the method recommended by Tom Lehmann himself, but I have not detected any differences when making small amounts of dough, as opposed to commercial quantities with which Tom is concerned.

For other general information on the preparation of a Lehmann NY style dough dough, you might also take a look at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.0.html. The mixing/kneading method described there is with respect to the normal use of a KitchenAid stand mixer. That is a method that you can also use, although I believe that the whisk/flat beater/C-hook (or spiral hook) method should produce a better quality dough.

Good luck and I hope you will report back on your results.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BillE on March 20, 2009, 03:41:46 PM
Thanks a bunch for those formulas, Peter.

Actually, what I forgot to mention in my previous posts to you was that I had scaled back on some of Reinhart's finished dough after initially following his guideline for making a 12" pie out of 12" of dough because I did find it to be a tad too thick from what I was looking for. That "medium" thickness value that you correctly pointed out in your evaluation of Reinhart's finished pie is definitely not NY Style! Neighborhood pizza joints from 40 years ago in Queens, NY [a suburb of New York City] did put out somewhat heftier pies than what you see these days, with doughier, browner crusts, but not to the extent of Reinhart's recommendation in his book. Judging by your final dough amount for a 14" pizza, my instincts tell me that your formula is in the neighborhood for what I'm looking for.

A nice touch on Reinhart's part in regard to his "NY Style Sauce and Cheese Pizza" in "American Pie" is the inclusion of grated provolone into the cheese mixture; something I haven't seen in any other recipe that I came across. That one addition, helped bring about an aroma in my cooked pies that I haven't experienced since my youth during the late 1960's and early 1970's. His generous use of the particular final seasonings he chose to sprinkle on to the pie just before it goes into the oven also contributes to that nostalgic aroma, although I use a different sauce recipe that the two recipes he provided in his book.

Thanks again, and I'll be sure to report back on my results.

Have a great weekend.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 22, 2009, 07:17:25 PM
HI Peter,

I have been studying this thread with great interest and was greatly disappointed when I read that you don't reccommend this method for a KA mixer with the spiral dough hook.  As you may have guessed, my mixer has the spiral dough hook.  What a bummer!  can you point me in the right direction for someone with my style dough hook
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 22, 2009, 08:29:48 PM
tsmys,

To be honest, I don't recall ever saying that one shouldn't use a spiral dough hook, under any circumstance. In fact, I have recommended spiral hooks over C-hooks to others on countless occasions. To be sure that I didn't mispeak or was unclear, I did a search of all my posts on the forum using the term "spiral" and I found only one instance in this thread where I used that term, at Reply 131 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg70786/topicseen.html#msg70786. I did not dismiss the spiral hook in that post (see the next to the last paragraph in that post). Maybe you can tell me where you read that I said that one shouldn't use a spiral hook with the methods described in this thread. Using a spiral hook would be a big improvement over my C-hook.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 23, 2009, 09:14:33 AM
Adam,

One of the things you have to always keep in mind is that a basic, low-level KitchenAid mixer is not a particularly good machine in my opinion to knead pizza dough. It would be possible to knead the dough longer and reduce the "pebbling" effect but then you may end up with an overkneaded dough. I have noticed in any event that the pebbling tends to diminish as the dough ferments.

Jeff's dough will always look better than what I can make with my machine. He is using a DLX, which does a much better job kneading dough than my mixer. The whole objective of this thread is predicated on trying to coax better performance out of my KitchenAid machine. The thread has little value to those who have DLXs, Santos mixers, or even the KitchenAid mixers with the spiral hook.

Peter
Here is the post I was refering too.  I guess you didn't specifically reccommend against using this method with the spiral hook, but it sure sounds like maybe going through all these extra steps may be overkill.  Here's the thing, Pete, I want to learn how to make the best pizza possible and if this is the method I should be practicing great, but if it is just a bunch of extra steps that won't improve the end product maybe I should be trying something else.  Thanks for your patience!
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2009, 10:52:29 AM
tsmys,

Since I have never worked with a KitchenAid stand mixer with a spiral hook (or with a DLX or a Santos mixer) to make pizza dough, I may have been a bit premature in suggesting that this thread may not have much value to those with such mixers, especially those with spiral hooks that replaced C-hooks in later versions of the KitchenAid stand mixers. I do believe that using sifted flour and the whisk attachment (and even the wire beaters that come with an electric hand mixer) help improve the hydration of the flour and have value even to that limited extent, and without requiring a formal autolyse to get improved hydration. The flat beater attachment in combination with the C-hook or, in your case, the spiral hook, play a greater role in the kneading process, usually after the dough has already been quite well hydrated. Using a spiral hook should lead to an even better quality dough than I can achieve using my C-hook. All it takes in your case is to try the methods described in this thread using your spiral hook and decide for yourself whether going through the extra steps is worth the effort. 

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 23, 2009, 01:12:13 PM
Thanks again Peter.  I kind of figured that the spiral hook would work.  I guess I'm just kind of gun shy after that "emergency" pizza fiasco the other day.  I'll give it a try soon and report back so you won't have to answer the same dumb question again! :)
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 23, 2009, 06:56:52 PM
OK, Peter, I just made a dough ball for a 14" pie using this method that I plan on cooking tomorrow.  I went with a 60% hydration to help the dough be easier to work and .40 IDY since I plan on finishing this pie tomorrow.  I just didn't have the patience to wait several days to see how this is going to work out!  Tommorrow I plan on making 2 more doughs for and extended proof.  If all goes well with todays dough, I'll raise the hydration to 62% and lower the IDY to .25.  (Although I'm not sure how accurate my IDY measurements really are; my scale only reads to a full gram).  I tried to follow your procedure as closely as I could although I did deviate a couple times.  I threw the IDY on top of the twice sifted KASL and stirred it in a little before adding the flour to the water since this will be finished tomorrow.  I also had all the flour added before I changed to the flat beater.  I shoveled the flour in a TBLS at a time without waiting for it to be incorporated.  Is that too fast?  When I got to the spiral hook stage I thought the dough looked a little dry and wasn't coming togeather as I expected so I added a TBLS of water.  This proved to be a mistake.  The extra water went straight to the bottom of the mixer bowl and allowed the dough hook to push the dough around the bottom of the mixer bowl instead of kneading it.  A higher mixer speed had no effect so a quick hand knead was used to get back on track.  The finished dough ball seemed heavy for it's size and fairly stiff.  Having no idea what a "good" dough ball should feel like I don't know if that is good or bad.  I do know that the finished dough didn't look as smooth as yours seem to, it still had a few seems in it but, hopefull, nothing too serious.  I did take a picture of the finished dough but, alas, I was on the laptop and it's battery went dead while I was downloading the pictures and all was lost.  Will try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 23, 2009, 07:04:42 PM
One more thing.  I have the dough ball in a round 2qt. plastic cambro container with the lid on.  Would you suggest I cut some slits in the lid to relieve gas pressure?  Thanks again for putting up with me!
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2009, 07:14:58 PM
tsmys,

Can you tell me what dough formulation you used?

Also, did I understand your post correctly in that you added all of the flour/IDY to the mixer bowl before you switched to the flat beater attachment, that is, while the whisk attachment was still secured? Adding the flour/IDY a tablespoon at a time without waiting for it to be fully incorporated is fine.

When I measure out the yeast, I use the volume measurement, which I have found to be close enough to the weight measured out on a scale. I do likewise with the salt and oil. I weigh only the flour and water.

For the amount of yeast and fermentation time you are using, I don't think you need to make any slits in the lid. The dough isn't going to produce enough gases of fermentation to blow the lid off.

Don't worry about asking questions.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 23, 2009, 08:20:36 PM
Here is the info about today's dough;



KASL          100%     274.18g
Water          60        164.51
IDY               .40         1.1  (could actually be anywhere from 1.1-1.9)
Salt             1.75         4.8  (rounded to 5)
Oil               1             2.74 (rounded to 3)
Sugar           0             0

TF                .1065
BR                2.5
Total Weight:  447.32  (actual finished dough weight was 457g)

Temp of finished dough ball was 73f

Dough has been refrigerated for approx. 3 hours and looks to have roughly doubled in size. 

Edges of dough have, for lack of a better term, small craters visible through the container.  Is this normal?

I have a thermometer in the fridge but it hasn't been in place long enough to give an accurate reading.

Yes, you understood the flour/IDY addition correctly.

Should the container lids be ventilated for a longer proof?  These containers were purchased specifically for dough balls so I have no problem slitting the lids.

By the way, I really appreciate the spell checker.  I may not be the world's worst speller, but I've got to be in the bottom five!

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2009, 08:54:26 PM
tsmys,

Based on your observation that the dough had a finished dough temperature of 73 degrees F and it doubled within about three hours, I believe you may have used too much yeast. The 0.40% IDY translates into about 1.1 grams. That is equivalent to a bit over 1/3 teaspoon of IDY (0.36 t.). With that amount of yeast, and with the finished dough temperature you achieved, it would take something like 1 to 2 days (and perhaps closer to two days than one day) for the dough to double while in the refrigerator. It would not be normal for "crevices" to form in the dough. Maybe you can revisit what you did and let me know if you did, indeed, use too much yeast. The dough in such a case would still be usable but sooner than originally intended. With your dough behaving as you mentioned, you might want to poke a hole in the lid.

With my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, I would not be able to add all of the flour/IDY with the whisk attachment secured. My machine would start to groan and a good part of the dough would end up inside of the whisk attachment and would not be subjected to much mixing. Once I see that the dough can't be fully incorporated by the whisk, I switch to the flat beater attachment and add as much as the flat beater attachment can handle.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 10:01:03 AM
Pete, it's quite possible that I used too much IDY.  I added a pinch at a time to the scale until 1 gram showed on the readout and ten a few extra pinches.  Next time I'll count the pinches it takes to get to 1 gram so I'll be able to calculate about how many pinches I need to get a weight that's very close to what's called for.  I suppose there is also the possibility that adding the IDY to the scale in such small quantities, (one pinch at a time), that the scale didn't register the correct one gram weight until well after one gram was actually on the scale.  BTW I use a OXO Good Grips food scale w/ an 11# capacity that weighs a nickle at 5 grams.

My mixer is a KA Pro 5 Plus.  I Didn't notice any straining when the Whisk was attached and all the flour was added.  Roughly half the flour/water mixture was trapped in the whisk and it was obvious little mixing was going on when I changed to the flat beater.  Also I have some pics to share but have been having trouble downloading them.  I'll try again in the next post but I'm growing weary of retyping this text. :D
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 11:06:50 AM
Dough ball before refrigeration.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 11:11:04 AM
Dough ball after 3-4 hours of refridgeration at 38 degrees f.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 11:13:16 AM
BTW;  the container in the above pictures has a 2qt capacity and measures 7" across.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 24, 2009, 11:25:07 AM
tsmys,

From the most recent photos, I am pretty certain that you used too much yeast. I have a special scale that can weigh small amounts of lightweight ingredients, like yeast, but I have found that the volume measurements specified by the dough calculating tools are quite reliable. Hence, I use those measurements for things like yeast, salt, sugar and oil. I only weigh the flour and water.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 10:15:34 PM
Peter, you're the man!  My latest dough turned out great :D  This was hands down the easiest working dough I have made to date.  None of the frustration of stretching it out and watching it shrink back or even worse, tear.  After the dough warmed up to room temp it looked kind of spongy so I re-balled it and pressed into a disk on the counter and let it rest for about an hour covered by a wet towell.  When it was time to make the pizza it was almost as it the dough wanted to be stretched out!  Admittedly I have some work to do to perfect my stretching technique.  The dough was probably thinner in the middle than it should have been, but it never ripped.  Although not perfectly round it was far from being the oblong shape I usually end up with.  But after the embarrassment of my last effort...  Maybe nobody being around to see this one had something to do with it turning out so well! :-D  Here are pics after the pie is dressed and after it came out of the oven.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: tsmys on April 24, 2009, 10:17:31 PM
Side and bottom views of tonights pie.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 24, 2009, 10:35:14 PM
tsmys,

I'm glad to hear that things worked out better for you this time. Since your use of more yeast might have altered things, you might want to repeat the exercise to satisfy yourself that it wasn't a fluke. I think you will also find that a longer fermentation time (e.g., two or more days) will affect the extensibility of the dough, although using a hydration of 60% will mitigate some of that effect. On the plus side, the longer fermentation should produce a better crust with more flavor and a better texture.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BillE on April 30, 2009, 05:51:36 PM
Pete-zza,

I tried out the formula that you provided for me in post #131 of this thread for 2 14" pizza's. I let one dough ball ferment in the fridge for 2 days and the other ball for 4 days. Unfortunately, I found the resulting crusts of both pizzas to be rather bland in flavor. When I removed the 4 day old dough from the fridge, the top of it had tiny, tiny, bubbles on top of it and a series of 1/4" and 1/2" bubbles at the bottom which I viewed from the glass bowl it was fermenting in. It had a nice sweet, yeasty aroma to it, yet baked into a bland-tasting crust even though the color of it was a light gold with a few brown spots. The 2 day old dough also had a nice aroma to it, yet yielded the same blandness. Also, in both, I thought the crusts were a bit too chewy for my taste, so I made one 14" dough recipe in which I tripled the amount of oil from 1/2 tsp. to 1 1/2 tsp. Was better, but still a bit too chewy for me.
I figured, at this point, that I would play around with the recipe by adjusting water temperature and then yeast quantity, if need be.

Before doing this, however, I happened to be in the bookstore and came across a book about no-knead bread-baking titled "Kneadlessly Simple" by Nancy Baggett. I've heard about this revolutionary way of preparing bread dough, and after thumbing through it's pages and seeing that it also contained a no-knead pizza dough recipe, I decided to purchase it.
Well let me tell you, using the book's recipe, I ended up with the best-tasting pizza crust I ever made in my 6 years of making pizza's! Definitely better than my previous favorite recipe, Peter Reinhart's N.Y. Style pizza dough from "American Pie".

Baggett cites her inspiration for the use of ice-water in the dough recipe from Philippe Gosselin's Pain a`l' Ancienne method which she read about in Reinhart's "The Bread Baker's Apprentice". Also, the  mixed final dough, before fermentation, resembles Reinhart's 'Pizza Dough 1' recipe from his book "Crust & Crumb", in that the dough's hydration is so high (15 oz AP flour to 12 oz water) that it must be spread out on oiled parchment with oiled fingertips into a pizza shape. (I like this because no need of messing up the counter top with extra flour).
Also, there's no sugar in the recipe, yet because of the long, cool fermentation at around 68 degrees, the flour's natural sugars are drawn out resulting in great crust-color and subtle sweet flavor. Another reason for the great crust-color is the wetness of the dough which allows for additional baking in the oven without drying out the inside of the crust.
The recipe called for a 25-45 min. rest of the stretched out pie before baking. I had let mine rest for 25 min. which resulted in a medium-thin crust similar to what tsmys displayed in post #149 on this thread. Being a native New Yorker, next time I'm going to try a 5 min. rest before baking in order to get a thinner crust.
Baggett recommended a 500 degree oven that's been preheated for only 20 min before baking, however, my instincts told me to preheat for the usual 1 hour instead, with a pizza stone of the bottom rack. Also, my oven goes up to 525 degrees, so that's what I had set it to and I enjoyed great results.
My wife, who routinely discards her pizza crusts, ate every bit of it with this recipe as the inside was like Italian bread and the outside had a slight crunch to it along with it's great flavor.
At this point, I have no need to experiment with other pizza dough recipes, rather, I'll be trying out the muffin, dinner rolls, and bread recipes from this fabulous book.

Here's the no-knead pizza dough recipe:

Ingredients - 15 ounces unbleached all-purpose flour (plus more if needed) (I used KA All Purpose Flour)
                   generous 1 1/4 tsp table salt
                   1/2 tsp instant, fast-rising, or bread machine yeast
                   scant 1 1/2 cups ice-water (about 50 degrees according to book) plus more if needed.
                   1 TBLS olive oil


In a large bowl, thoroughly stir together the flour, salt, and yeast with a wooden spoon. (Can also use a mixer with paddle attachment, which I did). Vigorously stir in the water, scraping down the sides, just until thoroughly blended. Stir in the olive oil until evenly incorporated. After a minute or two of stirring, should end up with a single, sticky, yet firm mass, (just past the point of being a thick batter). There should be no clumps of wet dough on the sides of the bowl; add a little more flour if there is. If the mass of sticky dough is too difficult to stir, add a little more ice-water to facilitate mixing.
At this point, the book says to brush the mass of dough with olive oil and divide in half after the first rise, since this recipe makes two pizzas. (However, I though it best to divide in half right away and then let it rise so that the stretching out later would be easier, the same as you always recommend Pete-zza.)
Brush top of dough (or doughs) with olive oil and cover bowl with oiled plastic wrap.
Let the first rising take place at cool room temperature, (68-70 degrees) No Higher. for 4-12 hours. (For best flavor and/or convenience, the dough can be refrigerated for 3-10 hours BEFORE the 4-12 hours cool room temperature rising. I refrigerated mine for 8 hours before the cool room temp rise.
After the first rising at cool room temp, stir the dough ball in their bowls to deflate them, then transfer each to a piece of 14" oiled parchment paper. Drizzle the top each dough with a little olive oil, oil your fingertips, then gently stretch out dough to desired pie thickness. I pretty much stretched it out as far as I could with out tearing the dough and leaving the edges slightly thicker. Your instincts will likely guide you with this process.
Tent each formed pie with non-stick spray-coated foil or oiled plastic wrap and let rise for 25-45 min. depending how thick you want your finished crust. I found that a 25 min. rise yields a med-thin crust and like I said above, I'll be trying out a 5 min. rise to get it a little thinner.
For baking, the book says to preheat oven for 20 min at 500 degrees with a rimless baking sheet, or an upside-down rimmed sheet on the lowest rack, and transferring the pizza (with no toppings) and parchment (or the pizza on a lightly-oiled pizza pan) onto the baking sheet to cook for 7-10 min until firm and puffed up. Then to take it out of the oven to spread on your sauce, add cheese and/or other toppings then returning to oven for additional 10 min or until nicely browned.
What I did instead, was to preheat my 14 by 16 inch pizza stone on the bottom rack at 525 degrees for one hour, place all my toppings on the pizza, and baked it on the stone. It took about 10 min, instead of the usual 6-7 min to cook it to the proper crust color. The parchment turned a light brown during baking, without burning. What I neglected to do was to place the finished pie on a cooling rack after removing from oven to retain crispness. I'll definitely try that the next time.
 
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2009, 08:48:58 PM
BillE,

Thank you very much for reporting back on your results using the Lehmann dough formulation I gave you. It is always helpful to determine what you like so that you don't spend too much time going down a nonproductive path.

There are limitations to what the Lehmann dough can deliver in the way of taste in the finished crust. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation is a commercial formulation intended to make dough for professional pizza operators that is cold fermented for up to 2-3 days before using. It is not intended to make an artisan pizza with a crust bursting with flavor. In order to coax more flavor out of a Lehmann dough, you have to do certain things. These include 1) using the methods described in this thread to make a dough that can endure up to 23 days of cold fermentation, 2) converting the Lehmann dough formulation to a preferment format, such as a poolish/sponge/biga/old dough preferment format, 3) using a natural starter or preferment in lieu of the commercial yeast normally used for the Lehmann dough formulation, or 4) modify the Lehmann dough formulation to produce a dough that ferments strictly at room temperature for several hours up to almost a day. I have done just about all of these things at one time or another. I do it because I enjoy the learning process but most people are unwilling or unprepared to use most of these alternatives because they are not easy to do and they take time. Most people would like to have their pizzas while they are still young.

The use of a no-knead dough to make pizzas has been covered on this forum on different occasions, including most recently at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7745.0.html. The Reinhart Baker's Apprentice pizza dough formulation has been discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,203.msg1397.html#msg1397. I showed how to make a 20-24 hour room temperature fermented  dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332. For a very high hydration rustic dough formulation, see http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza. Most of the results using these formulations will yield crust flavors that exceed what you will get from a normal cold fermented dough, including the Lehmann dough.

In light of your success with the Baggett dough, you might want to start a new thread to bring the Baggett formulation and methods to the attention of the members. We have quite a few members who have interest in no-knead doughs.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BurntEdges on May 01, 2009, 11:17:30 AM
For a very high hydration rustic dough formulation, see http://hollosyt.googlepages.com/quickrusticciabattapizza.

Pete-zza,

I'm an avid follower of your Kitchenaid method and use it for just about every dough formula with great success.  Thank you.

The above link you provided looks like a great pizza for a home oven using a Kitchenaid.  Have you tried it?

Although a photograph caption indicated that it was a 100% hydration recipe, I used the mass - volume food calculator which reflected one cup of water being about 237 grams; - then went to the dough calculator to convert the recipe into weights:

Flour (100%):
Water (94.8%):
IDY (1.2%):
Salt (2.8%):
Total (198.8%):
250 g  |  8.82 oz | 0.55 lbs
237 g  |  8.36 oz | 0.52 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
497 g | 17.53 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

Since the yeast is not being activated in this recipe, I'm assuming it's IDY?  I'm used to using 1/4 of a teaspoon for such a quantity of dough so 1 teaspoon seems excessive, but it is a 2 hour dough.
Please let me know if this conversion seems correct and my guess on the IDY .  Thanks.

If anyone else has any experience with this recipe, please chime in on your results.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BillE on May 01, 2009, 01:37:23 PM
Pete-zza,

Thanks so much for the links!

I have to say, the thought of a Lehmann dough rising in the fridge for a few weeks is a wild concept. I can only imagine the flavor of the final crust.
You have me curious about your 20-24 hour room-temp fermented dough; will certainly give that a try, and will get back to you with my results.

Have a great weekend.

Bill
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2009, 02:26:25 PM
The above link you provided looks like a great pizza for a home oven using a Kitchenaid.  Have you tried it?

Although a photograph caption indicated that it was a 100% hydration recipe, I used the mass - volume food calculator which reflected one cup of water being about 237 grams; - then went to the dough calculator to convert the recipe into weights:

Flour (100%):
Water (94.8%):
IDY (1.2%):
Salt (2.8%):
Total (198.8%):
250 g  |  8.82 oz | 0.55 lbs
237 g  |  8.36 oz | 0.52 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
497 g | 17.53 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = N/A

Since the yeast is not being activated in this recipe, I'm assuming it's IDY?  I'm used to using 1/4 of a teaspoon for such a quantity of dough so 1 teaspoon seems excessive, but it is a 2 hour dough.
Please let me know if this conversion seems correct and my guess on the IDY .  Thanks.


BurntEdges,

No, I have not tried the rustic dough recipe. However, it is on my "to do" list.

You are correct that the recipe does not use a hydration of 100%. Not long ago, a member sent me a PM on the recipe and I converted it to baker's percent format and saw that the hydration was not 100%. I also got the same set of baker's percents that you recited, although I was using table salt for conversion purposes whereas you appear to be using Morton's Kosher salt. I imagine that is is possible to use the whisk/flat paddle combination with the recipe although I usually stick with the instructions given for a recipe that I am trying for the first time. However, I think that you could really rev up the whisk attachment for a fair amount of the dough, at least until it bogs down.

Recently, one of our members, djones148, provided a link to thefreshloaf.com website, at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/5285/sullivan-street-potato-pizza, in which a poster described making a dough with a hydration of over 100%. That would also be an interesting dough to try. I did a Google search and found what appears to be the Glezer dough recipe at http://notitievanlien.blogspot.com/2008/04/sullivan-street-potato-pizza-english.html.

I believe you are correct that the yeast in the dough formulation you posted is IDY. If the water was really warm (120-130 degrees F), it would be possible to add ADY directly to the flour, but the recipe is silent as to water temperature. So, I would guess that the yeast is IDY. For a dough to be made and used in a short period of time, the amount of yeast would have to be high.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: BurntEdges on May 01, 2009, 03:05:00 PM
Pete-zza,

I usually use cold filtered water around 40'F for your Kitchenaid method.  With all the beaters to run through on your method, I strive to keep the finished dough temperature as low as possible for a 5 to 7 day nap in the frig.  With the rustic dough recipe, you are correct in that the water temperature is unspecified.  Knowing the approach of that recipe and its intended use 2 hours later, what water temperature would you suggest I try?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2009, 03:15:31 PM
With the rustic dough recipe, you are correct in that the water temperature is unspecified.  Knowing the approach of that recipe and its intended use 2 hours later, what water temperature would you suggest I try?

BurntEdges,

With all the yeast (1.2%), I don't think that it will really matter what the water temperature is (within reason). I think I would just go with room temperature water. If you try the recipe, it would be interesting to know what the finished dough temperature is.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 19, 2009, 09:25:43 AM
Peter,
The experiments you did here were amazing.  All of your pizzas looked tasty.  Your many day fermentation have me thinking how would I apply this to my recipe.  ::)  Since I read you did add oil and didn't add oil to different experiments, I still want to add oil.  In some of your experiments you used really cold water for the longer fermentation. 
I am still going to do some experimenting on the recipe I now am using and see if I can push it to 8 days like the dough I left in the deli case. Do you have any ideas of what I can do to the recipe I am using?  I am going to try the 3 little dough balls this coming week to see if they will give me the same results as this week.  I do have some frozen dough balls left out from this week and I will be going over to market tomorrow to do some cleaning.  Do you suggest I get a few dough balls out of the freezer and see what happens with them?
This is the recipe I now am using.  Almost the same recipe you help me with.

15 lbs.

Flour (100%):    4222.04 g  |  148.93 oz | 9.31 lbs
Water (59%):    2491 g  |  87.87 oz | 5.49 lbs
IDY (0.26%):    10.98 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 3.64 tsp | 1.21 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):    73.89 g | 2.61 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.13 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Olive Oil (1%):    42.22 g | 1.49 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.38 tsp | 3.13 tbsp
Total (162.01%):   6840.13 g | 241.27 oz | 15.08 lbs | TF = 0.1
Single Ball:   570.01 g | 20.11 oz | 1.26 lb

I really don't want to make too  many major changes to the recipe I am using, because it is working out well for me.  I really like the KASL flour.
In some of your experimenting here you are using higher levels of hydration.  How will that affect my recipe?   Will this longer fermentation work for me at the level of hydration I am now using? Also, I am having good success with using plastic bags to store my dough, so I don't want to change that either.
I am intrigued by the gray spots you report about.  I have never experienced them.
I don't know if any of these methods will be able to be used by me to get a consistent result from week to week, but do want to raise the level of my pizzas the best I can.
Thanks,
Norma



















Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 19, 2009, 03:28:31 PM
Norma,

As you gathered, this thread evolved over time and took a life of its own, with each experiment suggesting another, and then another, and so on.

In the very beginning, all I was trying to do was to get greater efficiency out of my basic KitchenAid mixer with a C-hook. Using the whisk attachment and the flat beater attachment along with the C-hook gave me that greater efficiency. This was followed by the desire to get a longer dough life than what I had achieved up to that time. I decided to use the Lehmann NY style dough formulation as a vehicle for that experiment. I was able to use the higher hydration (65%) because the new KitchenAid method, along with sifting the flour, allowed me to do this. I also liked the idea of a higher hydration because I felt that I would get better oven spring. However, I did later use a lower hydration. I think it was around 62%. But even with the higher hydration doughs, the doughs were not wet because of the improved hydration of the flour.

Most of the experiments I conducted in this thread used oil, mainly because I was using the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation that calls for oil. One of the experiments I conducted demonstrated that it was not necessary to incorporate the oil into the dough later in the dough making process, which is the method that Tom Lehmann advocates. Tom's method may work better for a commercial mixer but in my mixer I find it difficult to use Tom's method of later oil addition if the amount of oil gets above a few percent.

A key revelation, which was one that I believe contributed to longer useful dough life, was the idea of incorporating the IDY into the dough making process later in the dough making process rather than at the beginning. I believe that ThunderStik came to the same conclusion. Using cold water and trying to keep the dough as cold as possible for as long as possible were also important factors. I know that you are not using ADY, but I discovered that it was also possible to use ADY dry in a Lehmann style dough. I also used that method to make one of my Papa John's clone doughs.

With the above as background for your questions, I think in your case I would stay with your current dough formulation for now but make a few changes but not the actual baker's percents you are now using. First, I would use cold water. I used water out of the refrigerator. You may be able to use even colder water with your mixer but when I have tried using ice cold water in my home mixer, it is difficult to get good and efficient hydration of the flour. Second, I would add the IDY later in the dough making process rather than adding it to the flour up front. In your case, if you are adding the oil as Tom Lehmann recommends, the addition of the IDY can take place before or after adding the oil. Ideally, at the end of the process, you want to get a finished dough temperature under 70 degrees F and, if possible, even lower. I don't know if that is possible with your mixer.

I think you should be OK using the food grade storage bags that you have been using. I conducted many experiments using lidded metal containers to cool off the dough balls quicker, but I think the storage bags you are using should do a comparable job because they are of low mass and will be immediately exposed to the cooling action of your cooler. I have used this method in my experiments making frozen dough balls. Ideally, you want to get the dough balls into your cooler as soon as possible. Your cooler should operate at a lower temperature than my home refrigerator compartment but that advantage will disappear somewhat because of the much larger number of dough balls that you make compared with what I do at home.

If you decide to go forward with the above suggestions, it will be very interesting to see if you are able to extend the usual dough life of dough balls made in a commercial environment to the eight days that you have set as your goal. As with any experiment, the results you achieve, or fail to achieve, are still useful since they may suggest other experiments that might lead to the desired results. You will note that I have not suggested using less yeast at this stage. I would like to see how your current dough formulation works with the recommended changes before looking more carefully at the yeast quantity.

With respect to the frozen dough balls that you mentioned, I don't see any harm in defrosting and using them. Tom Lehmann usually advocates that frozen dough balls stored in a static freezer (such as a standalone home freezer or the freezer compartment of a home refrigerator) be used within 10 days, and maybe a few days longer.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 19, 2009, 04:34:11 PM
Peter,
That was a very interesting experiment you did and all the twists and turns helped you gain knowledge that you didn't know before.  I liked your using a higher hydration of 65% and sifting the flour to give it a better oven spring.  Someday I would like to try a higher hydration, but will work on this experiment right now.  I have read about ThunderStik and his experimenting, also.  He has it down to what day of week to make his dough so he can plan what results he wants.  I hope I get there someday. 
The sifting of the flour would be too labor intensive for me.  I can see the benefits from that though. I have seen different posts of yours and others that have advocated the benefits of sifting. You said your key revelation was introducing you IDY later in the process.  Is that how you make most of your dough now?
My regular dough making goes like this.  I first add the water, then pour the flour in, add the IDY on top of one side of the flour, then the salt on the other side and start mixing.  This mixes about 2  minutes until the hook pick up all the ingredients off the sides and bottom.  (There isn't any residue there to wash after it is mixed).  Then I add the my oil and continue mixing until my dough is finished.  I drizzle the oil in while the mixer is mixing.  Do you want me to keep my mixing procedure the same?
I will try a smaller batch of dough this coming Monday with the addition of really cold water.  After the small batch is left in the deli case for 8 days I will try the dough.  I will report back what happens. 
I think I can get a lower dough temperature than 70 degrees F.  I had did some experimenting in the summer with colder water because it was warmer in the market and I had some dough then about 74 degrees F.  My mixer seems really strong, so if I have to I will add ice cubes. 
Thank you for your help and work you have done on this experiment.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 19, 2009, 06:08:17 PM
Norma,

Flour as it comes from the miller is already sifted. However, 50-lb. bags are subject to significant compacting during transit and storage. I suspect that commercial mixers are able to handle flour that is compacted. So, sifting flour in your case is not something that I would expect you to do.

With respect to your question as to whether I use the late addition of yeast all the time, I approach that question as I do with just about everything I do. I ask myself: What is it that I am trying to do, and what is the best way of achieving it? If the objective is to make a dough with a long useful life, which to me means six days or longer, I will add the yeast later in the process. For example, when I researched and developed the first Papa John's clone dough, I estimated that a true PJ dough ball had a window of usability of about 5-8 days. So, I added the IDY later in the dough preparation process, as I discussed at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197. If I am not trying for a long useful dough life, I use the IDY in the normal manner, usually by adding it directly to the flour.

I think for now that you should continue to use your existing mixing/kneading regimen until we see if the recommended changes produce the desired results. In my home mixer I distribute the IDY over the dough mass being kneaded but I know that Tom Lehmann tells operators to just toss it on top of everything. That apparently works with a commercial mixer and should work in your case. I just don't trust my home mixer to produce the same kinds of results as a commercial mixer.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 19, 2009, 10:52:28 PM
Peter,
I will start the experiment on Monday.  Then I will see what happens and ask for any recommendations you might have for me.
I don't know if you remember or not, but I did try your PJ's Clone dough earlier by mixing the dough on a Friday and trying it on Tuesday.  I was going to go further with that experiment, but summer got in the way.  The taste of the crust then was very good, but I couldn't see a big difference in the Lehmann recipe.  Maybe if I would have continued with that experiment I would have found out more.
This time I will proceed.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: SmokinGuitarPlayer on November 20, 2009, 12:28:05 AM
Pete ... one thing I thought might be good to stick in this thread since its dealing with the KA mixer. I attended one of Peter Reinhart's classes this past week and he mentioned that the KA will only honor the warranty if the mixer is used at the 2 lowest speeds. If your mixer dies and when you call them they will ask you what speed you use. If you say anything other than the low speeds....they point out the fine print that voids the warranty if used at higher speeds. So be warned. I noticed that my mixer is making an unusual moaning sound lately ... hmmm............good thing I only use the low speeds!  :D
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on November 20, 2009, 11:39:38 AM
Norma, as Pete alluded to its best to make small changes. But I believe to get where you want to be that the yeast % will have to come down to .15%-.18% or somewhere in that general area.

As your dealing with much larger batches that means that the dough will sit out longer while your balling/bagging during which time the yeast will be doing its thing. And your cooler will be dealing with a much larger mass, but your cooler should be far better than what we have at home. I would also say with that many balls even in baggies stacking them is still a consideration, be sure you dont have bags stacked on bags.

Also note that that normally when you lower your yeast % your window of useabilty not only extends but it also widens out (up to a point). Meaning if you use a IDY% of 1 your window will only be about 12 hours give or take but with .1 you may have a window of 5 days where the dough is useable. And of course the best ones will be the ones at the tail end of that window. But it will be alot longer before the doughs are ready for use.

So you could end up with slow ferm dough with a 5 day window but it may not be ready until 5 days has passed. After which you could use it anywhere from day 5 to day 10 with good results.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2009, 12:27:22 PM
ThunderStik,
It's good to hear your ideas.  Your input should help me because you already know more about dough than I do.  You can now make a dough and know when to use it for longer fermentation.  ;D
I know I am dealing with bigger batches and usually with my mothers help I can have the dough balled and bagged in 10 minutes. I have a 20 qt. Hobart planetary mixer and usually make only 15 lbs at a time and then ball. I do ball my dough on marble. If you want me to, I have a infrared thermometer and will use that on what you or Peter want me to. Of course for right now I will make a smaller batch to do the test on.  The market doesn't have too much heat during this time of the year and I will have to note what the temperatures are each time I make a batch and also the deli case temperature. 
For right now I will place the dough in the deli case right on the stainless steel shelves.  If need be I can get my pizza prep fridge down really low in temperature.  I have thermometer in both of them, so I can see what the temperature is.  They are usually about 38 to 39 degrees F, but depending on how much I open them the temperature can change. 
Your note about about lowering the percent of yeast is interesting.  I will keep that in mind in the future.  Since you know more about how dough ferments than I do your comments about how you have a 5 to 10 days window to use the dough after it ferments really has me thinking.  Do you mean after 5 days of fermenting then you have 5 to 10 days to use the dough?  I want to understand this more.
Thanks for your help,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on November 20, 2009, 12:52:50 PM
Norma, first off make no mistake both you and Pete have a far greater knowledge of how doughs operate in a professional environment so I am in no way countering what Pete says, more adding to it.

You know your machines and environment better than either of us definately me. So I bow to Petes knowledge of the subject as my knowledge only pertains to my home environment.

The more yeast and yeast activity you start with the shorter amount of time the dough will be usable.

There are 2 points in the useability window, the beginning and the end. In the very beginning the dough is just fermented enough to use. In the end its almost to the point of over-fermentation in which the dough will be unuseable due to inability to handle it or it may be falling apart.

The lower yeast% you use the further the 2 points are apart, but it also takes longer to get to point 1 which is the beginning.

If you have alot of yeast that means there are more of the little beasties there to devour all the sugars in the dough. This means you will get to the point of breakdown faster (point 2). 

So knowing this you can experiment with different variables, hydration, yeast levels, salt levels, sugar levels, when to pitch the yeast, water temp and so to get the window (time between points 1 and 2) that you feel is best for your uses.

Did I help or make it worse? 

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2009, 02:51:51 PM
Earlier this year, in line with Bill's comments, I discussed some of the differences between making dough in a home environment versus a commercial environment, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9049.msg78232/topicseen.html#msg78232. It was those differences that made me wonder whether it is possible to make large volumes of dough balls in a commercial setting and get long lives out of them. That is why I was happy that Norma was willing to give it a try. In my experiments, I was able to make doughs with long useful lives by using my more or less standard 0.25% IDY (my warm weather value). Norma is using 0.26% IDY. That is one of the reasons why I didn't suggest lowering the amount of yeast just yet. I would like to see if Norma can create dough balls with long windows of usability in a commercial setting without lowering the amount of yeast. That might also tell us how critical yeast quantity is to long dough lives.

BTW, I am not the only one who has make dough balls with long useful lives. Members Glutenboy, MWTC and Bryan S have also done so. For example, see Glutenboy's dough recipes at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66628.html#msg66628, the dough recipes by MWTC at Reply 46 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg68179.html#msg68179 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4625.0.html, and the dough recipe by Bryan S at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42547.html#msg42547 (in relation to Reply 22). Note the variations in the recipes and methods used.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2009, 06:31:31 PM
ThunderStik,
Thank you for your explanation and I do understand now what you are saying.  I appreciate any comments or advise because I want to learn more about dough and all that affects the dough process.  You are adding to my knowledge, which is good.
I know commercial operation have different equipment, but have seen so many delicious pizzas on this forum that are made in so many ways, that are better than a lot of commercial operations.  Because I have the time and am not making pizza everyday, this gives me the opportunity to try things many commercial pizza operators don't have the chance to do. 
Thanks,
Norma

Peter,
I can understand that the different equipment I use can or can not make a great pizza.  This is something I also want to see if I can make an airy crust, just as other members do at home.  Since I have started making pizza, I have changed my mind about a lot of pizzas I thought were really good.  Each time I have the chance to go to New York I try a different corner pizza place.  I really enjoy NY style pizza, but am now really tasting the crust and sauces.  It gives me a whole new perspective, on what I would like to achieve.
We will see what happens.  Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2009, 06:45:40 PM
Peter,
Here is the equipment and flour I have to work with.  Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.
The little dough balls in the deli case are what were left from last week, which I will see if they are still good this week.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2009, 07:01:47 PM
Peter if you want me to use the poppy seed trick, I still have poppy seeds at the market from the experiment I did before.  I can measure but I can't cube.  Hopefully if you want me to measure how far the poppy seeds would spread apart it would be the way I know how to do it. 

Norma,

It's up to you to use the poppy seed method. If you decide to use that method, all you need to do is place two poppy seeds one inch apart on top of one of the dough balls at the center. When you reach the point where you plan to use the dough, you can measure the final spacing (it will be greater than one inch) and let me know what it is.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2009, 07:17:18 PM
Let me know what temperatures you think I should measure and I will keep notes.

Norma,

When I make pizza dough, I note several temperatures, including water temperature, flour temperature, room temperature and finished dough temperature. I don't usually measure the temperature of my refrigerator compartment since that can change a lot based on the items stored and the many openings and closings of the refrigerator door during the fermentation period. I don't want you to spend too much time measuring temperatures such that it slows you down, but it would be nice to know your water temperature, finished dough temperature and the temperature of your cooler when the dough balls have been placed into it. The temperature of your cooler is likely to be more constant than a typical refrigerator compartment.

It would also help to know how many dough balls you make and how long it takes you to divide and scale the dough balls before they go into the cooler.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2009, 09:49:01 PM
Peter,
Okay, I will follow what you have told me and use the poppy seeds, too.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2009, 05:32:02 PM
Peter,
I made 5 dough balls today for the tests and the temperatures were:
Water Temp   41 degrees
Flour Temp     62
Room Temp    58
Finished Dough Temp  56
Deli Case Temp  42
Number of Dough Balls Made 5 and How Long to Scale  6 minutes
Temp after forming dough balls  60
Poppy Seeds space 1" apart
I don't know if it is any value, but I used my PH meter and it PH was 6.2
Now to let the dough balls in the deli case until next Tuesday.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2009, 05:54:54 PM
Norma,

You did a great job. Thanks for all of the data points.

Recently, I have been experimenting with doughs to be frozen, and to get a finished dough temperature of around 60 degrees F like you did I had to freeze everything: the flour, the yeast, the water (until ice formed on the surface of the water in the measuring cup), the mixer bowl, the flat beater attachment and the C-hook attachment. My room temperature was around 75 degrees F. That's the difference between living in Texas and living in Pennsylvania. I also had a devil of a time kneading the dough and getting good hydration of the flour, and had to do some hand kneading to make up for the inadequacies of my stand mixer. It looks like you had no problems making your cold dough in your mixer.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2009, 08:47:37 PM
Peter,
Yes, it is colder here now and the market isn't heated much until market day. 
That is interesting you are experimenting with freezing dough.  That is a lot to do freezing everything. 
My mixer didn't have any problem mixing the dough, but I might have turned it off before I should have.  The dough looked kind of raggy as you can see.  Usually my dough doesn't look like that.  I hand kneaded the dough some before I balled it. It was still so cold the temperature didn't go up much.  My dough also sits on a marble slab and that usually stays cooler than other things. If this dough doesn't work out, I will mix longer. 
I told you before I have frozen my doughs balls from the week before with good results, even after they were in the deli case or pizza prep fridge for two days.  Those dough balls were about 80 degrees when I was finished making the dough. 
I am going to use some of those dough balls tomorrow.  If I think about it tomorrow, I will take a picture of the dough after it is thawed out and after I open the dough.  I think Tom Lehmann said it is okay to freeze the dough up to about 10 days. 
What window of time are you looking for to use the dough after you freeze it?
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2009, 09:18:12 PM
Norma,

I don't want to get too far off topic but it dawned on me after I posted that your dough, with some modifications, could be frozen. The companies that make frozen bread dough and frozen dough balls significantly increase the amount of yeast and they shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 65 degrees F. My recollection is that Tom Lehmann also recommends a finished dough temperature of 65 degrees F. That is also the same number that I saw in Professor Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread. Typically, the yeast quantity is doubled from its usual value. In my case, because of the increased damage to the yeast cells through static freezing when using my refrigerator freezer, I usually triple the amount of yeast to compensate for the yeast damage. 

In your case, if you triple the amount of yeast and increase the amount of oil to about 3%, and make the dough the same way as you did, I think you will be in pretty good shape to freeze the dough. I think that your hydration is fine at 59% (frozen doughs usually have lower hydration values than normal), so I don't think there is any need to change that. Tom Lehmann generally recommends that dough frozen in a static freezer be used within 10 days, and sometimes he will go as far as 15 days. At some point, I plan to test 15 days and possibly longer. In preparation for using the frozen dough balls, you should let them thaw for about a day, or possibly two days, in the refrigerator compartment of your refrigerator. They can then be used in the usual manner after letting them warm up for an hour or two at room temperature (or maybe longer in your case with your cool workplace).

It also appears that your mixer did not introduce much heat to the dough you made. Based on the numbers you gave me, and using the standard expression regarding friction factors, I calculated a friction factor for your mixer for the recent dough batch to be 7 degrees F. That value applies only to the recent dough batch. It does not apply to your usual dough batches. The friction factor in that case will have a different value.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2009, 10:26:59 PM
Peter,
I have been using frozen dough balls when I have dough left over.  I just let them on the bench and when they are thawed out, I use them.  So far I haven't had any problems unless it is more than one week I have the dough frozen.
I have a few customers that do buy the fresh dough and I tell them to use the dough within two days or either freeze it.  They have reported back to me that the dough is still good for them to use even when they froze it.
Will let you know how the dough works out next week.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 26, 2009, 08:52:56 PM
I was just reading through this thread. I liked the fact that Peter compared the results of the long cold fermentation process to those of using a natural starter. I've had some really good success with the NY Lehmann (best of the NY styles I've tried), and want to mix it up a bit and play a bit with long ferments, etc.

Peter - given so much time has passed in this thread, as well as so many experiments, would you suggest I just follow the original recipe/technique as written, or were there some key learnings made since 2006 that would be worth noting? I will be looking to scale the recipe up to 3x14" dough balls.

Appreciate your input.

-- Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on November 26, 2009, 11:43:28 PM
Norma, after seeing how low your finished dough temps were I agree with Pete in that you may not need to lower your yeast %.  Thats a farly low temp and will make a large difference in the end.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2009, 12:22:50 AM
ThunderStik,
We will see what happens this week.  On Tuesdays my deli case is opened a shut quite a lot.  I can't monitor what the temperature is all day.  Hopefully that doesn't effect the dough too much. The dough was made on Monday and I plan on using it this Tuesday.  The dough didn't look like it did anything by Tuesday.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2009, 11:21:33 AM
I was just reading through this thread. I liked the fact that Peter compared the results of the long cold fermentation process to those of using a natural starter. I've had some really good success with the NY Lehmann (best of the NY styles I've tried), and want to mix it up a bit and play a bit with long ferments, etc.

Peter - given so much time has passed in this thread, as well as so many experiments, would you suggest I just follow the original recipe/technique as written, or were there some key learnings made since 2006 that would be worth noting? I will be looking to scale the recipe up to 3x14" dough balls.

Josh,

I went back and re-read the first few posts in this thread and there weren't any material changes in what I originally wrote there. But, there were a few minor changes. Specifically, I discovered that there was no need to sift the flour at least twice (once is enough) and I found that I did not need to coat the agitators (whisk, flat beater, C-hook) with oil. Later, when I decided that I wanted to extend the window of usability of the dough even further, I added the yeast (IDY) even later in the dough making process. Also, when I tried lower hydration doughs than what I used in the opening post in this thread (65%), I found that I had to use a higher mixer speed than the stir speed. This was just a common sense change. I'm sure there were other such mid-course corrections.

I don't want to leave you or anyone else with the impression that the methods described in this thread will produce results identical to what you would get using a natural starter/preferment. However, the results I achieved, in terms of crust flavor, aroma and texture, were the closest that I have able to achieve to using a natural starter/preferment. On a scale, I would put a natural starter/preferment first, then the results using the methods described in this thread, especially the really geriatric doughs that I made. Next on the scale, I would put preferments using commercial yeast. Maybe next would be doughs fermented for very long periods (up to 24 hours) entirely at room temperature (this means using minuscule amounts of yeast).

Good luck. I hope you will let us know how things turn out. I am especially anxious to see how Norma's experiment turns out.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 27, 2009, 02:03:05 PM
Thanks Peter.

I just made 3x 14" dough balls per the original specification.

My finished dough temperature was 73 degrees. These are now in the fridge for the next week.

I noticed in your original photo set a pic of the dough after 7 days. It looked like there are little black dots in the dough. Is this something I should expect to see? One thing I am worried about though letting these ferment for a week is the fact that my temperature may not be consistent (kids in and out of the fridge). How would I know if my dough has reached a fermentation max before 7 days are up?

Cheers,
Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2009, 02:52:19 PM
I noticed in your original photo set a pic of the dough after 7 days. It looked like there are little black dots in the dough. Is this something I should expect to see? One thing I am worried about though letting these ferment for a week is the fact that my temperature may not be consistent (kids in and out of the fridge). How would I know if my dough has reached a fermentation max before 7 days are up?

Josh,

I devoted several posts to the matter of the spotting of the dough. If you scan the posts, you will see several examples of that spotting, much of which looks quite ominous. However, the spotting did not affect the final results. In my experiments, I found that the only flour that exhibited the spotting, at least to a degree noticeable to the naked eye, was the high-gluten flour, in my case, the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour. The spotting appeared primarily on the top surface of the dough, not on the bottom (or sides, if I recall correctly).

There is no hard and fast rule or indicator of overfermentation of the dough. There were times where I thought my dough had overfermented, or was on the verge of such, when bubbles appeared on the outer surface of the dough. If the dough was otherwise firm to the touch when I pressed my finger into the dough, I took that to mean that the dough was not overfermented and I usually pinched the bubbles shut, with no ill effects. Overfermented doughs tend to be soft and billowy and puffy, not firm. Also, if there is a great abundance of bubbles at the bottom and sides of the storage container, such as a glass bowl, that is also a pretty reliable indicator of overproofing/overfermentation. In my case, I used metal storage containers and hence could not see the bubbles as I would in a clear glass or plastic bowl.

In my experience, the openings and closings of the refrigerator dough, particularly if excessive, can have an effect on the temperature of the dough being stored. I have particularly noted this effect when I have made doughs before going away for long trips during which time the refrigerator door remained closed for the entire time. Upon my return, the doughs had not expanded to the same degree as when I was at home. The loading of the refrigerator can also have an effect on the dough's temperature. By loading, I mean the nature and the number of items that are in the refrigerator at any given time. For example, if you go to the supermarket and buy a lot of items and place them into the refrigerator to get them cool, that will affect the temperature of the dough. Conversely, if items are removed from the refrigerator and not replaced, that loading effect can cause the stored dough to become even cooler. What I do these days is to use the poppy seed method to monitor the expansion of my doughs. If the dough doubles in volume based on using the poppy seeds measurement, I might take that as a sign that it is perhaps a safe time to use the dough. Or, I just monitor the dough more frequently.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 27, 2009, 02:56:08 PM
Thanks Peter, that's useful. I will monitor the dough as you suggested.

Sorry but I have another question... I usually use EVOO when a dough recipe calls for oil. I noticed I was out so I replaced it with vegetable oil. While searching to see if this was a valid substitution, I noticed on the dough calculator that it says EVOO is not recommended.

Am I ok with the vegetable oil? What's the issue with EVOO?

Thx,
Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2009, 03:15:04 PM
Josh,
I was reading about your experiment and am interested in seeing how it turn out.  Good to see you are trying a long ferment, also.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2009, 03:25:11 PM
Sorry but I have another question... I usually use EVOO when a dough recipe calls for oil. I noticed I was out so I replaced it with vegetable oil. While searching to see if this was a valid substitution, I noticed on the dough calculator that it says EVOO is not recommended.

Am I ok with the vegetable oil? What's the issue with EVOO?

Josh,

No problem. Ask away.

Vegetable oil is fine. Actually, olive oil, and especially extra-virgin olive oil, may well be the best oil to use in a quality pizza dough because of its flavor contribution. However, in practice, it is perhaps the least used (by professionals) of the various types of oil. Tom Lehmann typically recommends using olive oil in the dough (usually on the low side for a NY style dough) but he often suggests that it be pomace olive oil, which costs much less than a high quality olive oil and consumers are very unlikely to notice the difference (I once suggested that to a pizza operator and he reported back, with glee, that his customers could not tell that anything had changed after he made the switch). Quite often, especially where cost is an important factor, Tom recommends a blend of olive oil and canola oil, with the bulk of the blend being canola oil. Tom also recommends that the oil used to wipe dough balls be a vegetable oil, which is usually soybean oil. That is cheaper than using a good olive oil. I have used both olive oil and soybean oil in my pizza doughs, including the doughs reported on in this thread, and, to be honest, I could not tell the difference. At around 1%, it is perhaps too much on the low side to have the flavors jump out at me.

Peter

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 27, 2009, 05:21:09 PM
Got it. Thanks.

I will report back on this one in about a week!  ;D

Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 30, 2009, 08:40:06 PM
I'm now on Day Three of my seven day ferment, and I notice the dough balls are starting to speckle with the spotting the Peter noticed in his original experiment. Not as pronounced as Peter's pics, but definitely getting that way.

Peter - I've read through the thread on the spotting issue, but couldn't determine at what point the spotting started for you.

I wonder if my dough is fermenting at an accelerated rate. On the other hand, the balls have flattened out but I can't detect any substantial rising. The usual Lehmann recipe I use would have risen a bit by Day Three.

Just wondering if I'm on the right track...

Thx,
Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2009, 09:08:59 PM
Josh,

Your question on spotting is a tough one. Unless I specifically noted in a post when the spotting started, I perhaps didn't note when the spotting first occurred. Remember, also, that I used metal lidded containers and periodically removed the lids to see what was happening to the dough balls in the containers. As you may also recall from your reading of this thread, I described an experiment at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42774.html#msg42774 from which I concluded that oxygen was necessary for the spotting to occur. As noted in that post, there was no spotting of the dough after being entombed in a evacuated pouch after 15 days, when I ended the experiment. So, it is possible that opening my metal containers from time to time, combined with using high-gluten flour, the dough got exposed to oxygen and led to the spotting that was noted in the photos I posted.

If your dough is based on a hydration of around 65%, it would not be unusual for the dough to slump and spread. Unless you used some method to measure expansion, such as the poppy seed method, you might not be able to say with certainty that the dough did not expand. It would also not be unusual for the dough to behave differently from a rise standpoint from a basic Lehmann dough using the same dough formulation. The methods you used are calculated to extend the window of usability of the basic Lehmann dough. I would be worried if you told me that your dough is behaving like a regular Lehmann dough.

I don't see anything at this point that leads me to believe that you are heading into a ditch.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on November 30, 2009, 09:52:34 PM
Thanks Peter.

It may be due to the fact that I periodically open the top container (I have three dough balls) to peek inside. I just opened the bottom of the three containers, lo and behold, no spotting. You were exactly right - I was keeping the top dough oxygen-ized.

The point I was making about the 'usual' Lehmann, was exactly what you were saying - I don't think I've over-risen the dough. I thought I'd put it out there in case you found the spotting occurred only at the very end of the experiments.

I will try to avoid peeking until Day Seven. Thanks as always.

I also have my first try at a Verasano Neapolitan in the fridge for a three day cold ferment. Will do my best to post pics to get the feedback of the forum.

-- Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2009, 09:53:34 PM
Peter,
I see torontonian has told you how his dough is doing, so I thought I would also let you know how the Lehmann dough is doing.  I checked it today and measured the poppy seeds.  They are exactly 1 ½" apart.  Since my dough is still in the plastic bags, I don’t know how much difference that will be in determining about the “poppy seed” trick.  Here are two pictures how my dough looks.  They were taken this afternoon after the same time as I made my dough last week, so one more day to go.  If I have time tomorrow (which I probably will, because hunting just opened today) I will try and take a video of me opening the dough and then a picture of the finished pizza.  
Here is a video today of my mixer making the dough today.  My mother that is 87 years old took the video and usually I am standing on the right of my mixer to put my ingredients in.  I usually don’t have any problems with the flour pouring up the sides like it did today, but I was on the wrong side of the mixer.  You can see in the video when I drizzled the olive oil in.  Usually my mixer doesn’t have any residue left in the bowl, but because I messed up pouring in the flour, it did have residue at the top edges.  At least you can see how my mixer performs.  
I am interested in seeing how torontonian dough turns out, also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH9omJ0Le28

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2009, 10:11:17 PM
Norma,

If the poppy seed spacing is 1.5", that suggests that the dough has more than tripled in volume. However, it is hard to say for sure since I have never tried using the poppy seed trick in a sealed bag where there is no space between the poppy seeds and the top of the container. It is possible that your application is not one where the poppy seed trick has sufficient accuracy as to merit its use. Can you estimate visually whether the dough more than tripled in volume?

I would proceed as planned. I look forward to your results and observations.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2009, 10:23:13 PM
Peter,
The dough doesn't look like it tripled in volume, but then it is in the plastic bag.  It looks like it has fermented a lot by the looks of the bubbles, but I am not an expert at this.  Visually, I just can tell you what I have seen today.
Will post the results tomorrow.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2009, 09:50:08 PM
Peter,
The experiment went well.  I had made 5 dough balls to test.  The first dough ball was left on the slab for about 1 ½ hours.  When I went to opened it I had my daughter take a video and it just wanted to tear.  I thought I might have left it on the slab too long and I threw it away.  I thought there were four more doughs to experiment with so I proceeded.  The 2nd dough ball I just removed from the deli case without letting it warm up.  The 2nd dough opened up really well and when I put it in the oven it didn’t get any bubbles in while it was in the oven.  Since that seemed to work, just taking it out of the deli case and using it without a warm up, that is what I did with the 3rd dough ball.  When I removed the 3rd dough ball and placed it on the slab, the dough developed a big bubble.  I then put it in flour and began opening the 3rd dough ball.  It opened up okay.  The 4th dough ball was the same.  When I opened up the dough it seemed like it could stretch really far. 
The taste of the finished pizza crust was very good.  I didn’t get big airy holes like I thought I would.  The only thing that puzzled me about this experiment was I couldn’t let the dough warm up before I starting making the pizza.  Does that make any sense to you?  After the first ball and having it tear so much, the rest did well just coming out of the deli case.  All the experiment pizzas performed the same in the oven.
Picture 1  comparison of my regular dough with experiment dough.
Picture 2  picture of where I kept the dough for 8 days in the deli case.
Picture 3  finished pizza made with 2nd dough
Picture 4 rim of second pizza
Picture 5 stretched dough of 3rd pizza
Picture 6 4th dough ball after I put it on marble slab-note the big bubble
Picture 7 4th dough ball finished pizza
I decided to take the 5th dough ball and bring it home to freeze it to see if I can still use it next week.  I will upload the one video tomorrow of the dough tearing with the first dough ball.  My daughter also took a video of me opening the 2nd dough ball and I will upload that tomorrow too, so you can see how the dough performed.
I don’t really think the poppy seed trick worked with my using the plastic bags.  Every dough ball had a different measurement of the spaces the poppy seeds spread apart.
Let me know what you think this experiment tells you about what an 8 hour fermentation in my commercial setting.
After watching the first video of me opening the first dough that tore quickly, I decided not to post it on you tube because you can't really see the dough tearing, so I will just post the one of me opening the second dough.
Here is the video of opening the 2nd dough ball without first letting the dough warm up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT2YoDEcBaQ

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2009, 09:42:59 AM
Norma,

Based on your results and the video, I have several thoughts and comments to offer. But before presenting them, can you tell me (or remind me if you have already said) at what point you added the IDY?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 09:51:31 AM
Peter,
I added the IDY and salt right on top of the flour, just like I did in this video taken this week.  All the mixing procedures were the same for the 8 day fermentation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH9omJ0Le28

Norma

Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 10:23:13 AM
Peter,
This is off topic, but since you mentioned in this thread about trying to get your dough temperature down, did you ever try putting ice cubes in plastic bags or something similar and either tie  with twine or use a large rubber band around the mixing bowl to keep the temperature of your finished dough lower?  Just thought I would mention this while it is fresh in my mind.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2009, 10:38:47 AM
Norma,

Thank you.

The reason why I asked you about the timing of the addition of the IDY to the dough is that I discovered, as discussed at various points in this thread, that the window of usability of the dough can be lengthened by adding the IDY late in the dough making process. In your case, you got eight days out of your dough, which is unusual in itself in a commercial environment, but I would say that your dough was close to overfermenting. Also, your gluten structure was no doubt weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure. It is possible to slow down the effects of the protease enzymes by adding more salt, but I personally have been trying to lower my sodium intake, much as the U.S. government is trying to reduce the MDR for sodium and asking food processors to lower the sodium content of their products. However, there are some members of the forum who are using over 2% salt, in some cases considerably more than that. So, that is an option in your case if you are so inclined. However, I would personally rather alter the timing of the addition of the IDY to the dough making process than to increase the salt levels. I tried several timing approaches with the IDY, and found that adding it to the dough before or after the oil seemed to work quite well. An alternative approach is to use ADY in dry form instead of the IDY. I believe that is how some chains do it to ensure that the dough balls delivered to their stores can last a week or so.

The last time I made a dough ball with a bubble as large as the one you showed was using Canadave's NY style dough recipe. The dough used a lot of yeast and a large bubble appeared after about one day of fermentation. I pinched the bubble shut and let the dough ferment for a bit over five days. You can see the bubble at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. In your case, I believe the problem was overproofing rather than too much yeast. It was no surprise to me that the dough handled better cold rather than warm. That is quite common with an overproofed/overfermented dough. Such a dough will also be highly extensible if allowed to warm up before handling.

At this point, you have several options. You can repeat the experiment but with the late addition of the IDY. Or you can use ADY instead of the IDY (I believe you should be able to add the ADY up front with the rest of the ingredients). Or you can repeat your experiment but use the dough after only 6 days instead of 8 days, if that is something that works for you schedule-wise. As noted above, you can also increase the salt content. There are other possibilities, such as lowering the amount of yeast and lowering the hydration, but I generally don't like to change too many variables at one time.

I agree with you that the poppy seed trick does not seem to work as well in your case where you are using the plastic bags.

If you need help with any other experiment you decide to undertake, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 11:05:24 AM
Peter,
I agree that the 8 day fermentation dough was close to over fermenting.  I noticed when opening the dough it felt like little honeycomb structures in the dough.  Was that what you are talking about when you said my gluten structure was weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure? 
I added the picture of the deli case so you could see I kept the dough in the bottom right hand corner to keep it as cold as I could.
Yes, I can now see how the cold dough handled better than the warmed up dough. The first dough ball I tried just wanted to tear, so that is why I just tried it right out of the deli case.
 I would like to try this experiment again.  I would like to try with adding IDY either later or at the end and still go for an 8 day fermentation to see what the results would be. Do you think I should lower the IDY any more at this point?
I would like to try the poppy seed trick again, too.  This time I will purchase 5 Glad containers and see how that works.  Do you suggest to drill a small hole in the lid, like you have suggested before?  What size Glad containers do you use?  Maybe then I can really see how much the dough ferments.
Let me know which you want me to try to get the best results.
I did really enjoy the taste of the crust.  It was much better than my one day fermentation. 
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2009, 11:08:13 AM
This is off topic, but since you mentioned in this thread about trying to get your dough temperature down, did you ever try putting ice cubes in plastic bags or something similar and either tie  with twine or use a large rubber band around the mixing bowl to keep the temperature of your finished dough lower?  Just thought I would mention this while it is fresh in my mind.

Norma,

No, I have never tried that method. Using a refrigerated bowl, which is what you would be doing, is something that commercial frozen dough producers often do to make dough that is to be frozen, as I noted recently at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9121.msg84545.html#msg84545. The closest I ever came to doing what you suggested was when I made a dough where I used only crushed ice or ice cubes, that is, no water in liquid form. I discussed the results at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17086.html#msg17086. See also Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.msg17097.html#msg17097. In fact, sometime when you can set aside some time just to read, you might read the entire thread.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 11:19:05 AM
Peter,
What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could go down lower with ice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing bowl?  That is why I asked if you ever tried this method to get your finished dough temperature down.  I was only thinking about this because you live in a warmer climate.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2009, 11:31:05 AM
I agree that the 8 day fermentation dough was close to over fermenting.  I noticed when opening the dough it felt like little honeycomb structures in the dough.  Was that what you are talking about when you said my gluten structure was weakened by the protease enzymes attacking the gluten structure? 
I added the picture of the deli case so you could see I kept the dough in the bottom right hand corner to keep it as cold as I could.
Yes, I can now see how the cold dough handled better than the warmed up dough. The first dough ball I tried just wanted to tear, so that is why I just tried it right out of the deli case.
I would like to try this experiment again.  I would like to try with adding IDY either later or at the end and still go for an 8 day fermentation to see what the results would be. Do you think I should lower the IDY any more at this point?
Let me know which you want me to try to get the best results.
I did really enjoy the taste of the crust.  It was much better than my one day fermentation. 

Norma,

Yes, the honeycomb characteristic that you mentioned is common with an overproofed dough. Also, the dough may feel a bit wet and clammy, which is caused by water in the dough being released from its bond after the prolonged fermentation period. I believe that the lighter crust color was also an additional effect of the overproofing.

I think I would try the late IDY addition method with an 8-day dough as your next experiment. If you look back at the posts on that subject in this thread, you will see how I used the IDY late in the dough making process. If using dry ADY is of any interest to you, the last time I used that method was with an 8-day Papa John's clone dough at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308. In that case, I simply added the dry ADY to the flour.

I meant to mention earlier the possibility of adding some sugar to your dough formulation but waited to see how you used the IDY. In all of my experiments with long-lived doughs in this thread, I did not add any sugar to the dough. In looking at your photos, I thought that adding some sugar would help provide more crust coloration. In retrospect, I believe that that made sense because of the way you made your dough with the IDY being used in the normal fashion. However, for your next experiment, I would not add any sugar to the dough. I would rather see the results before addressing that issue.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2009, 11:37:14 AM
What I meant was do you think your finished dough temperature could go down lower with ice cubes or dry ice attached to the outside of your mixing bowl?  That is why I asked if you ever tried this method to get your finished dough temperature down.  I was only thinking about this because you live in a warmer climate.

Norma,

I am sure that method would help. However, I discovered that if I freeze everything, including the flour, yeast, water (a thin layer of ice in the measuring cup), the mixer bowl and the flat beater attachment and the C-hook, I can get the finished dough temperature down to about 60-62 degrees F. That is even lower than the 65 degree F finished dough temperature that commercial producers of frozen dough balls strive for. So, I think I should be able to hit that target or come close to it even when it is warm here in Texas.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2009, 11:50:08 AM
Peter,
I will add the IDY last in this experiment and not do anything else differently.
Thanks for you observations.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on December 02, 2009, 10:34:53 PM
Norma, I would add the IDY towards the tail end of your knead. After that I would only knead long enough to finish your regular knead session and only long enough to get good dispersion.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2009, 06:18:53 AM
ThunderStik,
Thank you for your suggestions.  I plan on adding the IDY as the last ingredient and making sure the IDY is properly dispersed.  I am going to use the poppy seed trick to see if I can tell how much the dough has fermented.  I also plan on using Glad containers to help me understand the poppy seed trick.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2009, 06:03:37 AM
Peter,
Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Glad containers and they are 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try 5 dough balls like I did before and just put  four dough balls in the Glad containers and one dough in my regular plastic bag to see if there is any difference in how the dough behaves.  Are the 5.2 cups containers  big enough for my dough to expand? 
You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?
The only other difference I will make in my dough formula is to add the IDY at the end of my mixing and only incorporate enough so it is dispersed uniformly.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Matthew on December 04, 2009, 06:23:04 AM


You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?

Norma

Hi Norma,
You can make the hole using a small nail & a hammer.  The reason for the hole is for the gasses to escape, without it, the lid may pop off.

Matt
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2009, 06:51:52 AM
Matt.
Thank you for your advise.  I did know the hole was for gasses to escape, but didn't know if the size of the hole mattered. 
Thank you for answering my question.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Matthew on December 04, 2009, 06:58:43 AM
Matt.
Thank you for your advise.  I did know the hole was for gasses to escape, but didn't know if the size of the hole mattered. 
Thank you for answering my question.
Norma

No problem Norma.  The smaller the hole the better.

Matt
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 10:15:20 AM
Since I want to try the “poppy seed trick” again, I purchased some Glad containers and they are 5.2 cups. I only purchased four because I want to try 5 dough balls like I did before and just put  four dough balls in the Glad containers and one dough in my regular plastic bag to see if there is any difference in how the dough behaves.  Are the 5.2 cups containers  big enough for my dough to expand? 
You had mentioned in other posts that you drill a hole in the lid of the containers.  What diameter drill bit did you use?  Is that something you would recommend me doing to get my best results?

Norma,

I think your Glad containers are adequate to the task. With the small amount of yeast you are using, coupled with the cold fermentation, you aren't likely to see such major expansion of the dough that it is likely to blow the cover off.

With respect to the size of the holes in the lids of my containers, I eyeballed one of the lids this morning and I would say that I used a 1/16" drillbit. However, I believe that the lids of your Glad containers are quite thin and flexible, whereas my lids are fairly thick and rigid. So, I would do as Matt suggests and just use a hammer and nail.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on December 04, 2009, 01:44:06 PM
My dough finished the 7 day cold ferment. It hasn't risen at all. I left it out now on the counter for about an hour. I opened the lid and smelled the dough. It smells like really strong whole wheat (the best way I can describe it). The dough is gummy to the touch.

Has it gone off? I'm weary to use it.

-- Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 02:10:18 PM
Josh,

It's up to you, but I would let the dough warm up some more, especially if it is cool where you are in Canada. Even when a dough does not appear to have risen during cold fermentation, it should expand more noticeably when brought to room temperature long enough, and it should become softer to the touch. I usually remove the dough ball from its container when I bring the dough out to room temperature and cover it with a sheet of plastic wrap so that it doesn't dry out at the exposed surfaces. If the dough ball is easy to open up to form into a skin when you decide to use it, that is usually an indication that the dough is OK, at least in my experience.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 03:09:26 PM
Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball from its container to warm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it with the plastic wrap. That helps absorb some of the surface moisture and keeps the dough from sticking to my work surface.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on December 04, 2009, 03:21:21 PM
Josh,

I forgot to mention in my last post that when I remove the dough ball from its container to warm up, I dust it with bench flour before covering it with the plastic wrap. That helps absorb some of the surface moisture and keeps the dough from sticking to my work surface.

Peter

Peter,
          This is funny as I was thinking about how other people do this last night, because ya just never know. I do it completely different.

I pull the balls out of their containers and put them on a well oiled surface to come up to room temp and cover them with the same plastic that was covering them in their containers (the plastic is oiled befor fermentation).

When its time to work the dough I only flour my hands a bit, just enough that the dough does not stick to them. I want to minimize the un-fermented flour.

I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 03:33:06 PM
I wonder if that could have something to do with the tiny bubbles?

Bill,

I tend to think not. Otherwise, I think you would find blistering in crusts made from doughs fermented for a couple or hours or so (at room temperature). I have never seen them in such cases, even with the dough balls being coated with oil and using bench flour. There may be many reasons for the small blisters forming, but I believe that the most common explanation is long fermentation times, whether at ambient temperature of under cold fermentation. At least that has been my experience making just about all kinds of doughs under many different conditions.

To test your thesis, you can make a test emergency dough and use your oiled surface/floured hands to see if you can create the blistering effect.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on December 04, 2009, 03:34:38 PM
Well, the containers have been sitting out now for four hours. Zero rise. There are some gasses being released, as pressure seemed about to pop the lids off. The whole wheat aroma is almost overpowering.

Ideas? I reread the recipe a couple of times, and I'm sure I got it right.

-- Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 03:43:33 PM
Josh,

The only way to get "zero" rise at this point would be because the yeast is dead. I would try opening up one of the dough balls to see if you can make a functional skin out of it. After four hours, I would think that the dough should be warm enough to work with.

Doughs that have fermented for long periods can have a variety of aromas. I don't personally recall detecting a whole wheat aroma, or at least it did not register with me as such.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2009, 03:46:23 PM
Josh,
Here is a dough I had left in the deli case for 7 days and it look gray and not full of life in any way.  I proceeded to use it and it turned out okay.  Does you dough look anything like this?  My finished dough temperature of that dough was 80 degrees F, the week before. It did smell strong.

Look at reply 54 under this

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9615.msg84235.html#msg84235

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on December 04, 2009, 04:01:46 PM
Bill,

I tend to think not. Otherwise, I think you would find blistering in crusts made from doughs fermented for a couple or hours or so (at room temperature). I have never seen them in such cases, even with the dough balls being coated with oil and using bench flour. There may be many reasons for the small blisters forming, but I believe that the most common explanation is long fermentation times, whether at ambient temperature of under cold fermentation. At least that has been my experience making just about all kinds of doughs under many different conditions.

To test your thesis, you can make a test emergency dough and use your oiled surface/floured hands to see if you can create the blistering effect.

Peter

Peter,  
           I doubt there is anything to it also as I was just wondering if there could be any effect that I am not aware of that may cause it.  I usually bake my doughs only when they are well fermented and running close to over-fermented. To me the flavor is far superior.

I dont appear to have problems getting the small bubbles so I would have to agree with you that it is the long fermentation. But come to think of it I have got those bubbles on 1 day ferm's also.  While I dont do single days very often and have seen the bubbles before I just never "thought" about them until that thread came up the other day really. I wonder if its more based on the "amount" or % of fermentention as opposed to the length.

Peter if ya want you can move this to the thread reagarding the subject.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 04:12:05 PM
Bill,

I will leave the recent "blistering" posts here because the pizza crusts I made under this thread had blistering as a material component. Hence, it is something that relates to this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on December 04, 2009, 04:55:41 PM
Well, I think my 7 day ferment experiment was a bust.

The dough smelled so bad, I couldn't bring myself to even try and bake it.

Really surprised the yeast could be dead, since it was a new jar of Fleischmanns IDY and I made several pies during the time these ones were fermenting in the fridge.

It didn't really look like Norma's dough, and it certainly wasn't grey in color.

Oh well - undeterred I will move on to trying something else. Perhaps a 24 hour room temperature ferment.

-- Josh
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 05:10:56 PM
Josh,

I am at a loss to understand why the dough did not work for you. I can't recall ever losing a dough because of bad yeast but I mentioned that possibility to you since the only explanation I can come up with for zero rise in the dough, at any stage, is dead yeast. Without live yeast, there can be no fermentation activity, and with no fermentation activity, there can be no gases of fermentation to cause the dough to rise. Is it possible that you forgot to add the yeast? Also, did you try to open up a dough ball and, if so, what did you experience?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Essen1 on December 04, 2009, 05:26:06 PM
Quote
The dough smelled so bad, I couldn't bring myself to even try and bake it.

Like Peter said, I don't think it's a dead yeast issue, either. But I also don't believe that the dough was a bad one, especially if you used a cold rise. The dough might have fermented just enough to turn into a slightly sourdough one after 7 days.

However, I would have just given it a shot, opened the dough and done a test bake without any sauce or toppings to see if you get any reaction(oven rise) out of it.

Any chance you took a pic so we can see what it looked like?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: ThunderStik on December 04, 2009, 05:35:03 PM
Josh, we need pics brother. That would help out alot.

Also is there any chance you didnt put the yeast in?  Not that I have been making pizza for years or anything but I cant remember ever having dead yeast...ever.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: torontonian on December 04, 2009, 05:52:00 PM
I didn't think to take pics. Sorry about that. Visually it was unremarkable. It looked like Peter's dough after 7 days, spotting and all.

Normally I would have given it a shot to see the end result, even if I didn't observe a rise. It was just the smell that was so strong I couldn't inhale up close without gagging.

One data point that I didn't provide earlier was that on Day 5, I took one of the dough balls out of the fridge (recall I initially made three) and made a pie out of it. Really just to see if the spotting was indeed harmless. That dough had a slightly "whole wheat" aroma to it. It had a decent oven rise (which tells me I did not forget the yeast), but the end result tasted odd. It tasted exactly as it smelled - like whole wheat. I gave my son a slice, and he said it tasted "weird". At the time I thought it just might need those extra few days fermentation.

But the "whole wheat" smell was simply overpowering today. I knew exactly what it was going to taste like after being in the oven...

I wonder if it got contaminated somehow?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2009, 06:09:28 PM
Josh,

I found that I had to go out to about 23 days before I found the crust flavors to be on the funky side, as I noted at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. That dough also included some vinegar, which may also have contributed to the off flavors. At one point, I had wondered whether it was safe to eat a pizza made with a dough that was long in the tooth, but, as noted by member November at Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg41468.html#msg41468, apparently I hadn't yet reached that point.

The benchmark I used for comparison purposes when I conducted the experiments in this thread was pizza crusts that were leavened with wild yeast (natural starters/preferments).

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 07, 2009, 05:21:18 PM
Peter,
I made the 5 dough balls today.  Since it was cold here last night, I left my filtered water in the jugs in my van until I went to market. I thought the water would stay colder outside.  I mixed the water, flour, and salt, and then added the olive oil.  After that was mixed I added the IDY last and mixed until I thought it was dispersed. Even after I thought the dough was throughly mixed the dough still looked a little ragged, but after forming the balls it looked okay.  Since it was colder at the market today the other ingredients were lower in temperature and also my finished dough temperature.. 
My temperatures were:

Water                          35 degrees F
Flour Temp.                  55 degrees F
Room Temp.                 53 degrees F
Finished dough Temp.    53 degrees F
Deli Case Temp.             39 degrees F
Placed Poppy Seeds on dough balls in 4 containers and 1 dough ball in plastic bag.

I had to use my heavy duty drill to get a hole in the container.  Just joking, I had to have that there to hang some Christmas decorations. I drilled the lid with a 1/16" bit. I did use other containers that were bigger than I had said before.  I used Rubbermaid 6.2 cup containers.
I have one question to ask.  I had mixed the test dough first and put the containers in the bottom of the deli case. I then mixed my other dough and did other things there.  I was at market about 4 and a half  hours.  I looked at the container before I left and there looked like condensation on the lids.  Is that normal?
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 07, 2009, 05:55:18 PM
Norma,

Yes, I also experienced condensation on the lids.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 08, 2009, 11:21:40 PM
Peter,
I used the last dough ball today, that I had taken home last week to freeze. This was the experimental dough ball that I didn’t use last week. 
I really didn’t expect to be able to do anything with it, but thought I would try this week.  I removed it out of the freezer this morning and let it in my deli case until this afternoon.  I then left it sit on the counter until it was almost unfrozen.  You could still feel some ice crystals in the dough.  I proceeded to open the dough. 
I was pleasantly surprised that this dough ball performed better than the dough did last week.  I didn’t feel any of the honeycomb effect and the dough didn’t tear. 
The dough did feel sticky and I just dusted with flour.  I didn’t notice any strong smell from the dough, either. 
I still don’t understand how this dough performed better than last week.  How can this dough that I thought was over fermented last week, get better this week?  The taste of the crust was outstanding to me.  I tore a piece of the rim off on the last picture to see how the inside of the crust looked.  There were many small bubbles inside.
These are the pictures I took today.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 09, 2009, 01:56:54 PM
Norma,

There are certain phenomena that are difficult to explain. In your case, the factors that might have been involved include the condition of the dough ball at the time it was frozen (e.g., gassy vs. degassed), how long the dough ball was frozen and at what temperature, how long the dough ball was defrosted, and how long the dough ball was allowed to warm up before shaping. If the dough ball was cooler than the other dough balls when you decided to open it up, maybe that was responsible for the improved handling and reduced webbing.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 09, 2009, 03:25:23 PM
Peter,
I can understand how many circumstances can effect the dough.  I can see this weekly in the same dough I make.  As the day continues the same dough has many different characteristics. 
I did bring the 8 day fermentation dough home after market last week and put the dough into my freezer. The dough ball from last week that I used this Tuesday was almost at the point of being completely defrosted, with some ice crystals.
 My freezer is a manual defrost and in my shed separate from my home and from what I have read about them, I don’t know if that makes a difference in how the dough freezes or not.

Manual defrost freezers are more common than automatic defrost models. Manual defrost models consume 35-40 percent less energy than comparable automatic defrost models. Automatic defrost freezers may dehydrate frozen food, causing freezer burn.

I never have taken a reading of the temperature in my home freezer.  I know things stay rock solid hard and last for a longer period than my combination refrigerator freezer.  Since there are no defrost cycles, the food just stays the same.
I will keep on noting different changes I see and what happens.
Thank you,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2009, 05:06:44 PM
When I went to market today I must have inadvertently left the deli case door open a little Tuesday night. The temperature in the deli case was 41 degrees F. I measured  the dough with a tape measure and it looks like the dough is any where between 1 and 1/16 inch to 1 and 1/8 inch. I had a hard time trying to measure because I only had a metal tape measure and the bowl got in the way.  I don’t know how much this will effect the 8 day fermentation.  Here is how the dough looked today.  I noticed what looked like dark specks in the dough.  I will proceed Tuesday and see what happens.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2009, 05:45:11 PM
Norma,

At 1 1/16", the expansion would be 1.06253 = 1.20, or an increase of about 20%; at 1 1/8", the expansion would be 1.1253 = 1.42, or an increase of about 42%. I checked some poppy seed numbers on an 8-day dough that I made a while back and your numbers look similar to mine. Did you note when the dough balls went into your deli case?

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2009, 06:02:58 PM
Peter,
Yes, I did note when the dough balls went into the deli case.  The time was 11:58 a.m.  Do I open the dough balls around the same time Tuesday?  The difference between 20% and 42% sounds like a lot. I will measure the distance between the poppy seeds on Tuesday.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2009, 06:14:01 PM
Norma,

I think you are OK but I will await your next number. We can then do a new calculation to see where we stand. Or you can do your own calculations along the way. All you need is a standard calculator. As an example, 1.1253 is 1.125 x 1.125 x 1.125.

In my last post, I said that I made an 8-day dough. I noticed after I posted that it was actually a 10-day dough. The poppy seeds after 10 days were spaced by 1.25", which represented a doubling of the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2009, 06:21:37 PM
Peter,
Thanks, and I will try your advise on using a calculator to try my own calculations. 
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 12, 2009, 03:12:31 PM
Peter,
I was reading http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27482.html#msg27482 reply 33 and you were explaining how to determine the thickness factor and calculate.  I have copied out that page and bookmarked it for future reference.
As I have said before in other posts, I am not good at math.  I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125?  ::) Where do those numbers come from?
I do understand how you are telling me to use a standard calculator and take 1.125 times factor of 3.  I guess. ::)
For someone like me that never has taken algebra in high school this sounds confusing to me.
If you have time to explain how I would do this, I will try.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 12, 2009, 03:49:14 PM
I only know basic math and have been trying to figure how when I told you about the poppy seed spacing of 11/16" and 11/8", how do you figure the expansion to be 1.0625 and 1.125?  ::) Where do those numbers come from?

Norma,

If you divide the number 1 by the number 16 on your calculator, you will get 1/16 = 0.0625. To that, if you add 1, you will  get 1.0625. Similarly, if you divide the number 1 by the number 8 on your calculator, you will get 1/8 = 0.125. To that, if you add 1, you will get 1.125. I just converted the fractions to decimal form and added 1 to them.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 12, 2009, 10:36:24 PM
Peter,
Since you have explained it to me it makes sense.  I knew how to take measurements with a ruler or tape measure, but didn’t know how to convert the the 16th's into decimals.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 14, 2009, 04:31:52 PM
Peter,
Here is what the dough balls looked like today.  There are still dark specks in the dough.  3 dough balls have bubbles, the one doesn't.  The dough ball in the plastic bag doesn't have any big bubbles.  I didn't measure the distance between the poppy seeds.  I will try to measure the one without the bubble tomorrow.  The temperature of the deli case was 39 degrees F.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2009, 10:20:35 PM
Peter,
Using the 8 days fermentation went okay, today.  The first dough ball I let warm up on the counter until the temperature reached 55 degrees F.  When opening the dough I noticed some thin spots.  The next picture is the rim on the first pizza, then the finished pizza. 
On the second dough ball, I decided to only let dough temperature on the counter rise to 48 degrees F, because I thought maybe it wouldn’t get thin spots.  That worked okay.  The next picture is of the second dough coming out of the bowl, then finished pizza.  Finally the rim of the second pizza.
The third and fourth dough balls were also left on the counter until they reached 48 degrees F.  I didn’t notice any thin spots when the dough was 48 degrees F. 
The second, third and fourth dough all handled well. I like the light and airy rim the 8 day fermentation gave me. 
I think all the pizza crusts tasted great.
I didn’t have time to open the fifth dough ball.
The measurement I got on the dough ball with no bubbles was 1 5/16.  I calculated that to be 0.20 or 60%.  Is that right?   Measuring the dough ball in the container was difficult.  What do you use to measure your poppy seeds?
I did still notice the black specks in the dough, but it didn’t seem to affect the dough.
In conclusion, I enjoyed doing this experiment and learning more about different fermentation times and also how to handle dough so it can be used.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2009, 10:22:04 PM
Last picture of measurement.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2009, 08:29:43 AM
Norma,

Thank you for conducting the experiment and posting your results. To the best of my knowledge, you are the first member to use the principles discussed in this thread to try to achieve long dough lives outside of a home setting setting and to report on your results. I can envision some possible changes to what you did to perhaps improve your results, but I wondered whether you saw any merit, beyond increasing your knowledge on the subject, to using the principles on a more regular basis in your commercial operations. As you perhaps learned, there are some risks in attempting long dough ball lives. I think your pizzas look good and you noted the improved crust flavors, but perhaps that is not enough to warrant using the basic dough life-prolonging methods on a wider scale in your commercial operation. If your customers note no differences, then it might not make sense to take on increased risk to coax more flavor out of your crusts.

With respect to your question on how I measure the spacing between poppy seeds, I use a small wooden ruler that I rest on the top of my storage container. I just line up the markings with the poppy seed spacing and note the value of the spacing. That way, I don't have to actually put a ruler or other measuring device (like a locking tape such as you used) on the dough itself. However, if I didn't use that method, I would use the method you used. FYI, if the final spacing of the poppy seeds was 1 5/16", the way you calculate the dough expansion is to first convert 5/16" to a decimal value of 0.3125, add "1" to that to get 1.3125, and cube that value (1.3125 x 1.3125 x 1.3125) to get 2.26. That is a bit more than a doubling of the volume of the dough. That is a good result in terms of dough expansion, especially since I had some concern that your deli case runs a bit warmer than a typical commercial cooler, which typically runs about 5-7 degrees F cooler than your deli case (at around 40 degrees F). On the basis of your poppy seed spacing, if I had to guess I think you might have been able to get another day or two out of your dough balls, albeit with some likely increase in the extensibility due to the increased fermentation time and the effects of the enzymes on the gluten structure.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2009, 09:14:23 AM
Peter,
Thank you for going over my results and helping me with this experiment. 
I did enjoy the improved flavor of the crust.  In the new year I would like to experiment more on getting increased flavor in the crust.  With the new year coming in our area in Pa. will be seeing a 30% rate increase in our monthly bills.  My deli case will not hold all the dough I need for the week.  I now turn off my pizza prep refrigerator until I make my dough on Monday.  I would like to wait until I see how much my electric bill goes up at market.  All my appliances are turned off during the week, expect my deli case. 
If you have time in the new year to help me with another experiment, I would greatly appreciate it. 
Stand holders that I have given samples to of the longer fermented dough have all commented they like the crust flavor.  At least I have people that can give me feedback.  They all say they like all my pizza, so I guess they are biased.
Yes, I can see the risks of attempting longer fermentation in the lives of dough balls.  Especially since I have many to deal with many and not just the five and also when the weather is warmer. 
I want to keep on experimenting with my dough, but at this time don’t know what to do.  Would you suggest using a higher hydration or increased IDY amount for my Lehmann dough to give me better results? I have increased my oven 25 degrees F to 550 degrees F, now.  I would like to just try my one day fermentation to see if I can get any better results.  I would use a test dough first. 
Thank you for telling me what kind of ruler you used for the poppy seed trick and explaining how to calculate, again.
I could see when I when I went to open the first dough how it was having some problems.  That is why I didn’t let the dough temperature sitting on the counter to get above 48 degrees F. With the shorter time on the counter the dough seemed to open okay. 
I agree my dough would not have lasted much longer.
Thanks again,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2009, 12:19:37 PM
Norma,

When you are ready for another experiment, let me know.

Unless you use a natural starter that is properly maintained or you use a very long cold fermentation such as described in this thread, it is difficult to get really good crust flavors using a basic recipe such as the Lehmann recipe in the usual manner. Another possibility is to convert the Lehmann recipe to a preferment format in which the preferment works most of the day at room temperature and you do the final mix in the evening to make a dough that then goes into the cooler for use the over a period of one or more days. Unless there is a way of combining a preferment and a very long cold fermentation as described in this thread, that is a topic that would best be the subject of a new thread.

If you would like to stay with the protocol of your last experiment but try to improve upon it, that is also an option.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 17, 2009, 06:39:17 AM
Peter,
Thank you for saying you would help me with another way to get a better tasting crust.
I have been thinking about what I would like to try next.  I think I would like to try a preferment using a poolish and try that on test dough balls. 
In the new year I will post under another thread asking for advise from you and other members on what procedures I should try.
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2009, 09:37:05 PM
Peter,
Since I had the one dough ball left from last week, I just kept it in the deli case to see what would happen to it until today.  I opened the plastic bag and although the dough didn’t smell bad, it was really gray.  On these pictures you can’t really see how gray it was.  It had a lot of dark spots.  I took the dough right out of the deli case and proceeded to open it.  Although the dough was hard to open, it didn’t have webbing.  I couldn’t get into a perfect round shape.  I dressed the dough and baked the pie.  The taste of this dough was better than last week. The crust was crispy. This dough had 16 days fermentation.  I had thought that the dough was almost bad last week, but I guess it wasn’t. Steve (Ev) came when we removed the pie from the oven and he tasted the pie, too. He could see I couldn’t get a round pie. I showed him the pictures I had taken of the dough before I opened it and how gray it looked.
Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on February 02, 2010, 11:38:26 PM

 The dough was used today, that was frozen since this last experiment.  I had taken it to market last week and it defrosted in the pizza prep fridge. I didn't have time to use it last Tueday. It was then frozen again, last Tuesday.  The dough went to market again, today.
 
The dough didn't give me any trouble in opening it.  The pizza using this dough tasted great.

I guess this will remain a mystery how this dough was abused and still worked out well.  Maybe it is in using a freezer that doesn't defrost itself.  Probably will never figure that out.  I just wanted to see what would happen with this dough.

The one picture was taken after opening the dough.  It was just put on the pizza pans to take a picture.  The other picture is of the finished pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2010, 10:22:11 AM
Norma,

Was that one of the dough balls from the batch that you made about the middle of December 2009 and exposed to periods of defrost and refreezing? If so, the pizza you made looks very good. As we have discussed before, there can be no fermentation of the dough while it is frozen. Once defrosted, the dough starts to ferment again. Refreezing it gradually brings the fermentation to a halt again. I'm sure in your case that it helped that your freezer does not have the typical cycling defrost feature. That is not the best thing for frozen dough and is likely to shorten its useful life.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on February 03, 2010, 11:10:36 AM
Peter,

That was one of the dough balls left over from December 2009.  It was exposed to different periods of defrost and refreezing.  Thanks for saying it looked good.  I was going to throw the dough ball away last week, but figured why not try and see if the dough would still be okay.

I do think since my shed freezer is a manual freezer and not having defrost cycles, that might be why the dough ball survived so long. The freezer is in the candy shed and we used to keep butter, nuts and other items for our caramel corn business.  I know from freezing food in kitchen freezer, how fast food can get freezer burn.  When I buy extra meat or freeze cheese, I always freeze it in the manual freezer.  It stays good in there for a long while, also. The food in the manual freezer isn’t exposed to opening or shutting the door as much, either.

I still will chalk this up to the mystery of dough and freezing.  Sometime I want to take two dough balls and freeze one in the house freezer and also one in the manual freezer and see what happens.  I almost positive that the one in the manual freezer will do better. 

Here is a picture of the dough ball at market yesterday, before it thawed.  The ice crystals can be seen on the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: hotsawce on February 04, 2010, 01:58:22 AM
Pete, do you think you could adapt this method to create a neapolitan dough (well, not truly neapolitan since it'd be cold risen) utilizing only IDY to achieve amazing flavor?

I'm not sure how it would adapt, or how it would hold up with Toby's cooking method. I'd be interested to see, if you could do a test batch with his method.  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 04, 2010, 03:05:18 PM
hotsawce,

At one point I did consider using the method with a 00 flour but never got around to doing it, most likely because I ran out of the 00 flour and did not replenish it because the flour doesn't perform as well in my home oven as in a very high temperature oven. Nonetheless, the principles involved should still apply even for the 00 flour. However, that said, 00 flour is unmalted and, as Marco (pizzanapoletana) told us at Reply 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13410/topicseen.html#msg13410, it has low amylase activity and is not ideal for cold fermentation applications. It still might be worth an experiment, however, to see how the end product performs. Using Toby's baking method would also be interesting.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: hotsawce on February 04, 2010, 04:46:57 PM
If possible, I'd even like to see one of your regular doughs using this method cooked via toby's oven method. I'm curious to see if it comes out any differently.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: hotsawce on February 06, 2010, 06:40:44 PM
Pete, one more question for you.

Do you think your method and glutenboy's method (his 8 day pie looks amazing) can be adapted, in some way, for those mixing by hand?

Unfortunately, I do not own a mixer and I don't have the money for one right now, but I would still like to make a dough that I can let ferment for 8 days or so. Any suggestions are welcome  :)
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2010, 07:13:46 PM
Hotsawce -

I don't think the mixer is essential to an extended refrigeration dough.  I've made plenty by hand when I've been away from my kitchen and still gotten shelf life.  It's just a lot of hand kneading to develop the dough.  I think more essential to the long refrigeration is low yeast so the dough won't be overactive during it's sleep.  I wouldn't change the recipe except to account for feel.  Different flours will demand different hydrations to achieve the same consistency.  Otherwise, don't sweat the missing mixer.  Just do a good bulk counter rise, ball it, oil it, cold-store it, and if the containers start to bulge after a couple of days, burp them like tupperware.  I am a control freak, and I've found a little faith to be an ally in these situations.  What's the worst that can happen?  (Actually, never ask that question...  You don't want an answer!!!  >:D )

- GB

ps - Norma, that geriatric dough makes some beautiful pizzas.  The color of the crust was very nice and it looked lighter than air.  Bet the flavor was amazing.  How would you characterize it?  Sour?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 06, 2010, 07:47:29 PM
hotsawce,

The doughs that I described in this thread have things in common with Glutenboy's dough but there are some material differences. For example, I used more yeast (but still on the fairly low side) and less salt than Glutenboy (which affects the fermentation process), a higher hydration (which speeds up the fermentation process), and my dough balls were generally larger (from a bit larger to several ounces larger) and perhaps took longer to cool down than Glutenboy's roughly 300-gram dough balls. Also, in my case, in order to get a fairly low finished dough temperature after all of the many steps that I used to make my doughs, I found it necessary to use very cold water. By contrast, my recollection is that Glutenboy uses room temperature water. One of the problems with hand kneading a dough that uses very cold water is that it is harder to hydrate the flour than if room temperature water were to be used. Also, hand kneading takes longer than a machine so the dough has a tendency to warm up toward room temperature, thereby raising the finished dough temperature. To compensate for the warmer water and the fact that you would be hand kneading the dough, I would perhaps lower the yeast quantity. It would also be possible to increase the salt level, perhaps to something like the 2.5% salt level that Glutenboy uses, and to slow down the fermentation in the process, but for taste and other reasons (e.g., keeping sodium levels down), I use around 1.50-1.75% salt.

For now, since Glutenboy has weighed in with his opinion on hand kneading, my advice is to go with his recipe and preparation methods. Once you see how that recipe turns out for you, you can always consider a version of one of the doughs described in this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: hotsawce on February 06, 2010, 08:48:57 PM
Thanks for the wealth of information. You hit on everything I could have possibly wanted to know. I'll likely be making this dough a few days before I get my new oven, and I'll be sure to take pictures of the before and after.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2010, 09:39:33 PM
Norma -

I see you're on line.  I added to my last post with a comment and question for you.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on February 06, 2010, 09:43:20 PM
Glutenboy,

Did you mean the pie I made at Reply #251 or Reply #248?  If it was 248, the taste of the crust was very good.  There wasn't any sour dough flavor. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Glutenboy on February 07, 2010, 06:16:32 PM
Yeah, 248 and forward.  No sour after all that time?  Hmm.  Anyway, the coloration is interesting too.  Theoretically you'd used up all the sugars and there shouldn't have been much browning, but it doesn't seem to work out that way.  My older doughs also get excellent color.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: norma427 on February 07, 2010, 06:31:49 PM
Glutenboy ,

When doing this experiment the taste of the crust was great, but the dough was so close to over fermenting in my opinion.  Don't really know about the coloration, but this was baked in a Baker's Pride deck oven.
I will have to give your formula a try someday.  I have read about it, but haven't had time to try it.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 07, 2010, 06:41:52 PM
Glutenboy,

I made a dough that underwent 23 days of cold fermentation and I did not get "sour" flavors. See Reply 117 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg42556.html#msg42556. I got some potent and ususual crust flavors (there was some vinegar used in the dough) but not "sour" flavors. As you can see, there was still good crust coloration after 23 days, even with no sugar added to the dough. In earlier doughs, with fermentations up to around 16 days, I could even detect a sweetness in the finished crusts even though there was no sugar added to the doughs. It was all quite unusual.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Cayman on February 23, 2010, 10:14:38 AM
Could I substitute All Trumps Bromated Bleached for the KASL in the recipe noted in Reply 1? If so, would it be an even swap or would I have to compensate one thing or another?

As always, thank you for the help!!!
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 10:32:09 AM
Could I substitute All Trumps Bromated Bleached for the KASL in the recipe noted in Reply 1? If so, would it be an even swap or would I have to compensate one thing or another?

Cayman,

Yes. The two flours have essentially the same rated absorption value and should work interchangeably. You might have to do a little tweaking of the recipe but that is true in many cases anyway.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Cayman on February 23, 2010, 10:58:57 AM
What type of "tweaking" do you speak of? Sorry, but I'm still new to all of this and trying to learn.

Thank you!!
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 11:45:29 AM
What type of "tweaking" do you speak of? Sorry, but I'm still new to all of this and trying to learn.

Cayman,

There are a lot of factors that can affect a dough as it is being made. It might be the condition and age of the flour (which can affect its moisture content), room temperature, humidity, water temperature, how accurately ingredients (especially the flour and water) are measured out, the efficiency and effectiveness of the method used to make the dough (e.g., machine versus hand kneading), and so forth. Substituting one flour for another, even if they nominally appear to be the same from a specs standpoint, might also affect the final condition of the dough. So, it might become necessary to make minor adjustments (tweaks) to the amounts of flour and/or water to achieve the desired final dough condition for the particular type of dough being made (e.g., New York style, American style, deep-dish style, cracker style, etc.). These types of adjustments are learned through experience.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Cayman on February 23, 2010, 11:49:48 AM
Thanks Peter!! Yes, I also think this is somewhat related to my other thread that you have replied to. Lol

Thanks again for your help and time!!!
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: hotsawce on March 14, 2010, 01:12:45 AM
I'm happy to say I'll be trying this dough method tomorrow...

because I finally got my KA mixer! Professional 5 plus...I wanted the commercial style motor protection. After discounts, it cost me about 260.  :chef:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: inSaNE iRIsH on March 14, 2010, 06:43:50 PM
I'm going to attempt to make my first pizza from scratch.  I like the idea of this thread, but the best flour I have found so far is KA bread flour.  I'm curious how you would alter this for use with this flour?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on March 14, 2010, 07:12:29 PM
I'm curious how you would alter this for use with this flour?

The KASL has a greater fermentation tolerance than the KABF, so you might lower the hydration by a couple percent if using the KABF or reduce the amount of yeast a bit to compensate.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: carl333 on December 12, 2014, 01:35:00 PM
Hey Pete-zza, that looks great.

For the New Years Winter Ice Classic, Red Wings vs Hawks, I decided to do a side by side with olive oils.  I used Classico, trader Joes extra virgin, and Lucini's (Red November's reccomendation via another thread).  I have to say I was quite surprised, as the Lucini's was much chewier, with a near perfect bubbling.  The others were good, but not up to the caliper of the Lucini's. 

Thanks for the great thread as this method has been a staple for me on my PizzaPro.

Jake

Good grief, who would have thought the brand of olive oil would make a difference. Maybe Jake hit a good year. I have read that a brand of olive oil could be great 1 year and not so great the following year. I guess like vino.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: carl333 on December 12, 2014, 05:25:23 PM
Gees, I don't believe I'm resurrecting this subject considering it was in 2010 since someone last posted. I'm so excited to try Pete's KA model to completion. Going with the 1st recipe posted in # 1.  Started last night, I tripled the ingredients and the KA easily handled it and formed 3 balls. I was originally going to try the 1st ball in 48 hours followed the other 2 balls 48 hours apart. But after calming down and let some of the excitement pass, I 'll commence with the 1st ball on day 4, followed by another on day 6 then day 8. Dough seems to have flattened out in its containers after 24 hours.
No action/no rise as yet.

I didn't have Pete's C dough hook so went with the spiral hook. Let's see.

Stay tuned! More pics to follow.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 13, 2014, 07:10:58 AM
Gees, I don't believe I'm resurrecting this subject considering it was in 2010 since someone last posted.
carl333,

Although this thread has been around for a while, it has quietly garnered almost 92,000 page views, and with only 14 pages of posts and, as of this morning, a total of only 274 posts, including this one. I can never quite figure out what attracts readers to this thread, or many others for that matter, but once you start closing in on the six figure mark in posts, there is usually a good reason for its popularity. Maybe it is because the thread tells how to make doughs that can last for days, even weeks, when most are thinking in terms of a day or a few days. So, maybe it is a curiosity factor. Or maybe its technical and scientific nature has appeal to those who like that sort of thing. Or maybe we've exhausted the subject to the point where there is not much more to be said.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: PrimeRib on December 13, 2014, 08:40:00 AM


I can never quite figure out what attracts readers to this thread ....


Peter, it's because this thread contains two words that tens of thousands of Americans search for on the Internet, that being the word "KitchenAid" and the other word being "dough". Whether or not they are looking to make pizza, those two words are commonly searched on the Internet, and when so, this thread is picked up.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 13, 2014, 10:54:46 AM
PrimeRib,

There is perhaps an element of truth in what you say. When I did a search using the terms KitchenAid and dough on Bing, I got 2,590,000 hits. When I didn't get any hits for this thread after 14 pages, I stopped and did a Google search. That search turned up 632,000 hits but I found one for this thread on page 7. I continued to look for several pages more without finding other references to posts on the forum. So, it looks like the title of this thread was material for search optimization purposes. They say that it is important to have a good lede, so maybe I succeeded on that score without being aware of it :-D.

I also did a search of the above terms on this forum, and got 1278 hits. With a few exceptions, such as the Lehmann NY style thread, Omid's thread on the Neapolitan style, Mike's (Essen1's) NY style thread, the threads with the greatest number of page views are for clones of favorite pizzas. I counted at least 22 such instances. They did not show up in the Bing and Google searches as far as I took them so they perhaps need help on search optimization techniques.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: carl333 on December 21, 2014, 09:24:38 AM
Gees, I don't believe I'm resurrecting this subject considering it was in 2010 since someone last posted. I'm so excited to try Pete's KA model to completion. Going with the 1st recipe posted in # 1.  Started last night, I tripled the ingredients and the KA easily handled it and formed 3 balls. I was originally going to try the 1st ball in 48 hours followed the other 2 balls 48 hours apart. But after calming down and let some of the excitement pass, I 'll commence with the 1st ball on day 4, followed by another on day 6 then day 8. Dough seems to have flattened out in its containers after 24 hours.
No action/no rise as yet.

I didn't have Pete's C dough hook so went with the spiral hook. Let's see.

Stay tuned! More pics to follow
.

Strange why I can't find an edit option to add more pics. I only have the quote option showing
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on December 21, 2014, 09:51:18 AM
Strange why I can't find an edit option to add more pics. I only have the quote option showing
Carl,

When you are in the Reply mode, you will see a link at the bottom that says "Attachments and other options". If you click on that, you will see how photos are attached (up to a maximum of eight). The photos won't show in the Preview mode, but should appear in the final post if they are of the right size and number.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: carl333 on December 21, 2014, 05:00:16 PM
Gees, I don't believe I'm resurrecting this subject considering it was in 2010 since someone last posted. I'm so excited to try Pete's KA model to completion. Going with the 1st recipe posted in # 1.  Started last night, I tripled the ingredients and the KA easily handled it and formed 3 balls. I was originally going to try the 1st ball in 48 hours followed the other 2 balls 48 hours apart. But after calming down and let some of the excitement pass, I 'll commence with the 1st ball on day 4, followed by another on day 6 then day 8. Dough seems to have flattened out in its containers after 24 hours.
No action/no rise as yet.

I didn't have Pete's C dough hook so went with the spiral hook. Let's see.

Ok so I am back reporting as promised with a few more pics after a 4 day and 7 day ferment. I didn't really notice much difference in all aspects with a 4 or 7 day ferment but maybe that's just me. Not very familar to using the proper terminology when describing a dough as yet but can say it was very easy to work with but still have difficulty getting that puffed cornicione  as much as I tried. Not really good at openning a dough but realize that will come. Not much oven spring probably attributed to the low yeast levels in this recipe but then again maybe it's me not doing things right. Other pics here really show a great looking pizza. I did notice a chewy and crispy crust which I definitely like and the wife says my doughs are getting better and better since joining here. The dough did seem to have more flavour than previous crusts I have made with lower fermentation times. Definitely a keeper but with better dough stretching techniques, I know I could make a better pie in time.

Stay tuned! More pics to follow.
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: TheRailroadBulls on December 31, 2014, 04:55:31 AM
David,

Thank you. If there is anything novel in the new technique, it would have to be some aspect of the combination, because every step, with the possible exception of using the whisk to aerate the water/flour combination and better hydrate the flour, is old. As an example, when I did a site search on using sifted flour, I found many instances where members did that, although its use was not highlighted. Of course, lubricating the mixing attachments (an old Alton Brown tip) and using autolyse in any of its many forms is not new, nor is the punch and fold technique. Hence, the austere topic description. If sainthood becomes a reality, maybe the topic description can be changed :).

Peter


You make your dough damn near the same way I do. Including using a whisk to mix the water and flour. Only differences are that you have a scale and a mixer (My mixer arrives in the mail TODAY!! :-D I got the Pro 5 and after reading this I'm kinda bumming cause it sounds like it doesn't create a consistent product like the old Hobart at the shop I used to work at...) and I don't. And I use a biga instead of going right in the fridge. The results you got are very similar to mine, although I have never fermented in the fridge for that long. My process is 24-36 hour biga, w/ only flour, water, and yeast for the first 12 hours or so, and then I add honey (the honey I use IS my secret. It's a local mini company and it tastes like no other honey I've ever had. VERY fruity.) and I fresh grind black pepper into my dough, and then I let it ferment for another 12-24 hours. My thought was basically to combine the processes for making alcohol AND pizza.... so I leave my biga fairly thin. I've let the biga go on its own for almost a week before and it was WIERD. It actually tasted pretty good but the flour and water looked like they had separated into swamp water. And you could SMELL alcohol in it! But it tasted pretty damn good. Anyways... back on track.... after the big is done, then I move to the fridge for 1-2 days, rest at room temp for 2 hours, and then we bake a different way too. My oven goes to 550 but my broiler is WEAK... just barely gets hotter than my oven, and my stone is el cheapo, so I put it one up from center rack, heat at 550 for about 45 minutes/1 hr, and then I turn on the broiler for about 15-20 minutes, and when the pizza goes in, the broiler stays on until it comes out. The guy I used to work for tried it and offered to buy my recipe off of me..... so I can promise you you're onto something with your experiments. I've worked on mine for 3 years and I'm finally right where I want to be. (this damn mixer was supposed to be the missing piece of my puzzle to make everything more consistent. RATS! This is what I get for not doing my research.

You mentioned kinks to work out. Well... I have a big one that I can't figure out, and it's plagued me since I REALLY started perfecting my method for about the last 6 months (I haven't been using this site at all because I've been rapidly progressing towards opening my shop. I finally even settled on a name!!! :-D I MADE time to log on today just so I could search "Kitchenaid" in the forum to find out what speed most of you guys are setting your mixers to and how long you're keeping it in their. On our Hobart we did 13 minutes with everything thrown in at once, no biga, sourdough, no nothing. Not exactly artisans..)... basically, even when I really carmelize my crust really nice and brown, almost burnt, like I prefer the bottom of my crust to be (well done 'til I die).... it still is SUPER droopy. PERFECT New York foldability (other than that it has NOTHING in common with NY crust..) but I want that crispiness. It's driving me bananas! It's actually the reason I wrote this long explanation.... in fact, I only read the first posts of yours up until the first pictures, but I don't have time to read the rest (I will later) right now.... and in the pictures, it looks like your crust ended up JUST where I was at before I started using the BIGA (my normal ferment dough was FINE in regards to crunch) so... I know everyone has their idea of the perfect pizza but.... somewhere between my method and yours lies the sweet spot. I am incorporating EVERYTHING I know about fermenting foods. Autolyse, Biga preferment, then fermenting honey giving it alcohol notes like mead, and the long cold ferment as well. I am still playing with salt and hydration (I have my recipe SET, but I still play.... you know how it is...) levels, but I don't sweat it too much until I can afford the scale I want (I'm broke paying off my school loans/bills so I can open this shop! Which will be in Michigans U.P. btw.. I live downstate currently) since i'll fluctuate results anyways until then.

Another cool tip I have that I've been playing with that i'll share here is: As most of you know, citric acid can keep cheese from coagulating properly, and destroys the stringy aspect of the cheese that everyone loves about a hot pizza. Well... for heavy toppings that can slide around, or large toppings that can come off all at once, or for extra cheese pizzas where it can actually have that uncomfortable mouth feel of globs of cheese, or extra sauce where the cheese can slide off easy (basically... lots of reasons to NOT want that)... I've been trying to perfect a spray for my shop that has a good amount of lemon or lime in it (I've also played with Grapefruit alot) to spray on (I've experimented with all types of times in the process to apply the spray) to de-string the cheese without turning it into a hot mess or an ugly duckling. Anyways, just want to say again... I PROMISE you from my own experience that your method has merit... and I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the story cause like I said I didn't get to finish reading it. Thank God I type like 97 wpm or else I wouldn't even have time to rant on here like a lunatic! :-) haha Have a good New Years guys! :chef: :pizza: :drool:
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: carl333 on February 17, 2016, 01:04:21 PM
Recently, at the Lehmann thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg32788.html#msg32788 (Reply 527), I mentioned that I used a markedly different method for preparing the dough in my basic KitchenAid stand mixer, one that yielded a dough that I was able to cold ferment for almost six days--and I believe it could have gone even longer--without signs of overfermentation. The dough also had very good extensibility without ripping or tearing, and the finished crust had outstanding flavor, approximating that which I have only achieved in the past using a natural preferment.

Since I reported on the new dough making method at the Lehmann thread, I have replicated it several times with equally good results. Rather than reporting the results at the Lehmann thread, even though I was using the basic Lehmann dough formulation to make the doughs, I thought it would be better to report on the new method in a new thread (here) since the method potentially has general application beyond the Lehmann application. To summarize, these are the highlights of the new method and the dough prepared using the method:

1) The flour used in the formulation is sifted at least once to improve its hydration.
2) A standard, basic KitchenAid stand mixer is used, with all three mixer attachments--whisk (a.k.a. whip), flat beater (a.k.a. paddle), and dough hook (C-hook)--being deployed in sequence during mixing and kneading.
3) Only one mixer speed--the “stir” speed--is used throughout the entire mixing/kneading process, thereby reducing the possibility of overkneading and the creation of excessive heat in the dough.
4) The dough formulation/preparation can accommodate a high hydration ratio--65% or better when using a high-gluten flour.
5) Autolyse features are used but no standard autolyse rest period(s), thereby reducing total dough preparation time while retaining some of the attributes and benefits of autolyse.
6) The finished dough is subjected to a brief “punch and knead” before refrigeration to improve its strength without overly developing the gluten.
7) The total elapsed time to prepare the finished dough is relatively short, about 10-12 minutes for a dough ball for a 12” pizza.
8) The finished dough has improved handling characteristics and can comfortably withstand five or more days of cold fermentation without exhibiting signs of overfermentation.
9) When long fermentation times are used, the finished crust has flavors approximating those achieved when using preferments.

In brief, with the new method, a high quality dough can be made in a short period of time in a basic KitchenAid mixer, using only the stir speed, and yield a dough that has very good handling qualities, autolyse-like attributes, and endure five or more days of cold fermentation and produce a crust with preferment-like flavors.

What follows in the next post is a description of how I actually implemented the new method.

Pete, Many of the recipes I read today do not include the sifting process. I never do. As this was written back in 06, has it been determined today that sifting process brings little or no value/return?
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2016, 01:39:28 PM
Pete, Many of the recipes I read today do not include the sifting process. I never do. As this was written back in 06, has it been determined today that sifting process brings little or no value/return?
Carl,

I started sifting the flour at the suggestion of member November, one of the more technical members of the forum. But what sifting does is separate the flour particles more such that you get more effective hydration of the flour. You are also able to get more water into the dough if that is a desired objective, or else you can lower the hydration. The increased mobility of the water may also result in the rest of the ingredients being more uniformly distributed and incorporated into the dough once the mixing and kneading process takes place. Sifting is perhaps more important for flours that come in large size bags, like 50-pound bags where the flour can become compacted, simply because of the weight of the flour, during transport and storage pending delivery to the end user. There may also be clumps in the flour. I originally tried sifting the flour twice, but November said only once was enough, perhaps because the flour from the millers is already sifted.

Peter
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: clarkth on February 17, 2016, 05:27:04 PM
Carl,

I started sifting the flour at the suggestion of member November, one of the more technical members of the forum. But what sifting does is separate the flour particles more such that you get more effective hydration of the flour. You are also able to get more water into the dough if that is a desired objective, or else you can lower the hydration. The increased mobility of the water may also result in the rest of the ingredients being more uniformly distributed and incorporated into the dough once the mixing and kneading process takes place. Sifting is perhaps more important for flours that come in large size bags, like 50-pound bags where the flour can become compacted, simply because of the weight of the flour, during transport and storage pending delivery to the end user. There may also be clumps in the flour. I originally tried sifting the flour twice, but November said only once was enough, perhaps because the flour from the millers is already sifted.

Peter

I find sifting helps a lot with absorption when I make a cracker crust with 36% HR.  When I don't sift the flour it is very hard to ball up without having dry patches of flour
Title: Re: New KitchenAid Dough Making Method
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2016, 06:18:37 PM
I find sifting helps a lot with absorption when I make a cracker crust with 36% HR.  When I don't sift the flour it is very hard to ball up without having dry patches of flour

Thomas,

That is a good point. I also sifted the flours for the cracker style crusts that I described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg48991#msg48991).

Peter