Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: invertedisdead on July 03, 2016, 12:53:50 AM

Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 03, 2016, 12:53:50 AM
Been wanting to make one of these to document my journey to pizza heaven.  The combined knowledge of this board is unlike any other resource for making pizza out there. Many thanks to the incredibly generous and helpful members here.

Today I made two dough balls and sauce for some family.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (.22%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (1%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (168.22%):   864.1 g | 30.48 oz | 1.9 lbs | TF = 0.099
Single Ball:   432.05 g | 15.24 oz | 0.95 lbs

Dough bulk fermented in the fridge for 3 days and I late balled them last night ala Fazzari. 

Their GE convection oven has a groove that allows the rack to sit right above the floor, a few inches below the main "rack tiers." These pies cooked absolutely perfect at 550 degrees convection "speedbake" - bake time right between 6 and 7 minutes with no broiling. I did rotate the pies 180 degrees at 5 minutes in.

First time using high gluten flour - Smart & Finals La Romanella brand. Dough handled excellent, and no thin spots which is an issue I've been having. Not the flour I planned on buying but their inventory seems to have changed quite a bit since last time I was there. Deli sliced mozzarella goes on so easy, allows you to get perfect coverage without any clumps in one spot.

They topped both pies with canadian bacon, mushroom, bell pepper, and red onion. Boars Head deli mozz. Last pic has some fresh mozz as well :pizza:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 03, 2016, 08:14:39 AM
Let the games B E G I N!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on July 03, 2016, 08:43:08 AM
Looks great!  Based on the TF that's a 14" pie?  What surface was it baked on?  Is the bottom oven element exposed?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 03, 2016, 12:08:21 PM
Looks great!  Based on the TF that's a 14" pie?  What surface was it baked on?  Is the bottom oven element exposed?

Thanks! Yeah 14" pie - some of that TF goes to a bigger rim so the final pie is still probably around .085
It's a gas oven, no burner exposed. My oven is electric with an exposed element so it was completely different from my normal baking routine. The pie was baked on a generic $10 pizza stone. The only reason I didn't put my stone on the oven floor is because it's broken in two pieces and wanted to dip instead of sit together tightly in the groove around the burner.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 03, 2016, 02:09:02 PM
Same formula, larger batch for 5 dough balls. The only difference is I did a poolish overnight of 500g flour + 500g water and a pinch of IDY.
In a separate cup I dissolved the salt and sugar in the rest of the formulas water and added the oil. I sprinkled the remaining IDY on top of the poolish, then added the remaining water to lift the poolish from the tub. (Pic 1) Next I mixed everything a little just to incorporate before adding the remaining flour and kneading a bit to bring the dough to a shaggy mass. (Pic 2) After a 20 minute rest and 1 stretch and fold (Pic 3) the dough is ready to bulk in the fridge.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 05, 2016, 12:29:15 AM
A few pizzas from today.  :pizza:
Baking in a different oven yet again. This time 500 degrees no convection; HUGE difference between the bake from the other day where I could see the crust boiling from the bottom. My oven has no window so both bakes are a bit of an eye opener. Bake time was quite a bit longer, probably 9 or 10+ minutes with a little shuffling. The pepperoni mushroom I started off with, with the stone on the middle rack for 7 minutes. This oven had no broiler so I moved the pie to the top rack to finish the top. For the next two bakes I moved the stone to the lowest rack and cooked until the crust had to get off the stone, finishing again on the top rack. You can see the color difference between the two. They loved the pizza but I gotta say the 6-7ish minute bake from the other day was far superior to me.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 07, 2016, 12:27:13 AM
Cheese making for tomorrows nearlypolitan bakes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 07, 2016, 06:23:31 PM
margherita with vegan mozz
Pepperoni, Ham, Mushroom, Galbani mozzarella
Mushroom, Caramelized onion, vegan mozz

Dough was underproofed, had some problems this morning. Not the best bake but I learned a few things. Pictures seem blurry, lens have got dirty shuffling pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2016, 06:42:34 PM
Looks good from here!  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on July 07, 2016, 07:51:57 PM
Looks good from here!  :chef:

Sure does! Nice work Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 11, 2016, 10:01:49 PM
4.5-5 minute ish bake.

Excellent flavorful golden brown crust, not overly charred, rim not dried out by the broiler. I hate that when the rim is hard like a Red Baron.
I'm running the broiler the whole bake, but the stone is on the lowest rack for a more gentle browning. Inverse square. No sugar. I can't get top browning without the broiler no matter which rack the stone is on or which browning agent is in the dough without doing a long bake. That's what I liked about my bake in a convection oven. But I'm perfectly content with this.


RT "flying sponge" til bubbly to a 24 hr bulk CF ; divide and ball for another 24 hr CF
pulled the dough from the fridge an hour before bake while the stone preheats.

I should stop experimenting.
The only thing I may try is cutting the high gluten flour with a bit of all purpose ; maybe 33%. This is La Romanella from Smart & Final.

I feel like I'm having a hard time finding a great tomato lately. I can't tell if I'm not salting enough or if I'm just getting bad tomatoes. Just got Amazon Prime, will probably find something on there. I want to try the Sclafani's or 6 in 1's but I don't even use a whole 14 oz can and they are all 28 oz. I guess I could recycle it into pasta. I sure would like to move to a 16" baking surface next. A 14" pizza just never has the "slice" factor of a larger pie. A lot of times I do the 6 slicer to try and fake it but they mostly come out wider and not longer. I digress.... !  ;D  :pizza:
 

Flour (100%): 469.57 g  |  16.56 oz | 1.04 lbs
Water (65%): 305.22 g  |  10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs
IDY (.33%): 1.55 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (2.08%): 9.77 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.75 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Oil (3%): 14.09 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.13 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
Total (170.41%):   800.2 g | 28.23 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   400.1 g | 14.11 oz | 0.88 lbs
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on July 11, 2016, 10:16:19 PM
Looks really good!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on July 11, 2016, 10:22:16 PM
I sure would like to move to a 16" baking surface next. A 14" pizza just never has the "slice" factor of a larger pie.

I'm ready to move up from the 14" too for this same reason.  Hurry up and buy something so I know what to get  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 12, 2016, 12:06:42 AM
Thanks Hans!

I'm ready to move up from the 14" too for this same reason.  Hurry up and buy something so I know what to get  :-D

I think I might get this.
http://www.highwaterclays.com/index.cfm/product/2793/kiln-shelf-16-x-16-x-58-square.cfm
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 15, 2016, 11:07:03 PM
Family in town, made a few pizzas.

Same formula as last bake. 3 hr flying sponge (RT) 24 hr bulk (CF), 24 hr balls (CF)
7-11 tomatoes, Saputo Gold mozzarella, Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni

I think I will stop late balling next bake and go straight to dough balls next time. This dough should work for a same day dough or a few days when refrigerated.

Bake time was 4-4.5 minutes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 17, 2016, 11:27:06 PM
The little ones visiting wanted more pizza  ;D
I'll take any opportunity to practice.

Same day room temp dough. No bulk, ripe sponge straight to dough balls. Was waiting for one more to show up, dough was starting to overproof, I don't think it got too far away though.

Flour (100%): 624.11 g  |  22.01 oz | 1.38 lbs
Water (65%): 405.67 g  |  14.31 oz | 0.89 lbs
IDY (.24%): 1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (2%): 12.48 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.6 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
Oil (1%): 6.24 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (168.24%):   1050 g | 37.04 oz | 2.31 lbs | TF = N/A
14" Single Ball:   350 g | 12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs 

It's interesting how the same dough can vary depending on bake time. The Hawaiian compared to the the pepperoni-mushroom ended up completely different.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2016, 09:23:44 AM
Ryan,

Nice job. Can you tell us what kind or brand of flour you used in case others would like to try your formulation?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on July 18, 2016, 09:52:20 AM
You mention the varying bake times... Any remembrance how long each one went for?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 18, 2016, 12:04:31 PM
Ryan,

Nice job. Can you tell us what kind or brand of flour you used in case others would like to try your formulation?

Peter

Thanks Peter,

I'm currently using Smart & Final's La Romanella High Gluten flour.

You mention the varying bake times... Any remembrance how long each one went for?

The Hawaiian was 5 minutes
The Pepperoni/Mushroom was 8 or 9
The cheese was 6ish.

I lost a lot of heat after the Hawaiian so the Pepperoni took quite a bit longer; and I let the oven regenerate a bit before I launched the cheese. I don't have an oven window so experimenting with the bake can be a little difficult to form an opinion since I have to keep popping in to see whats happening. My last bake was running the broiler the whole bake of the pie with the stone on the lowest rack. That gives me around a 4 minute pizza. Electric Oven. This bake I didn't turn the broiler on until the last minute or so, moving the pie from the stone to the top rack instead for a more intense blast.

I tried cutting back the oil after really liking my results with 3% the last few bakes. Initial thinking says I probably don't need more than 1%, if any when I stick to 4 minute bakes; but anywhere past 6.5-7 minutes and I think I need it to keep the crumb texture I want.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on July 18, 2016, 07:08:39 PM
Thanks!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 21, 2016, 04:36:54 PM
Dough

1000g Flour
640g Water
21g Salt
30g Oil (coconut, Hi Chau  :D)
1g Yeast

Straight dough. 4 day CF... two more dough balls hibernating in the fridge til whenever. Round numbers make things so easy.

Sauce

14 oz Muir Glen Whole Peeled blended with a few small basil leafs.
1/4 + 1/8 tsp salt
1/4 tsp California olive oil infused with garlic (microwave extraction)
1/4 tsp brown sugar

6:30 ish bake. Stone on the lowest rack. 3% coconut oil is such a unique texture.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on July 21, 2016, 06:20:58 PM
3% coconut oil is such a unique texture.
Ryan,

That is a nice looking pizza. Your comment about the coconut oil intrigues me. I recently bought a jar of coconut oil because it is supposed to be a healthy fat but can you elaborate further on the effects of the coconut oil on your pizza crust? For example, does it add flavor or taste, or more crust color, or greater or less tenderness of the crumb than other oils, etc.?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on July 21, 2016, 06:48:19 PM
Great question, I would like to know also (I have a big tub of it).  Ryan, I don't remember if you mentioned it but in case you did not ( I think) it is important to let folks know it is critical to use highly refined coconut oil so the oil (and resulting pizza) does not taste like coconuts (just my two cents).....
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 21, 2016, 07:16:08 PM
Ryan,

That is a nice looking pizza. Your comment about the coconut oil intrigues me. I recently bought a jar of coconut oil because it is supposed to be a healthy fat but can you elaborate further on the effects of the coconut oil on your pizza crust? For example, does it add flavor or taste, or more crust color, or greater or less tenderness of the crumb than other oils, etc.?

Peter

Thanks Peter,

Coconut oil is unique due to the medium chain fatty acid structure. What I can say about coconut oil is because of its natural antiviral, antibacterial, and anti-fungal properties I don't believe it has the rancidity problem most oils have. I used a refined Organic coconut oil which doesn't add coconut flavor. Only the unrefined variety would. That might still be worth trying though. I've been using coconut oil as a 1:1 substitute for butter for a while in brownies and other goods, and recently in pizza in a 50:50 EVOO x CocOil mix. This is my first time doing 100% coconut. It's unique. At 3% it almost reminded me of an American style pizza but with a lot less oil than the 6-9% they use. Not as chewy for high gluten flour, it softens the crumb but also seems to support it; kind of like a cake, I suppose!

Ryan

Great question, I would like to know also (I have a big tub of it).  Ryan, I don't remember if you mentioned it but in case you did not ( I think) it is important to let folks know it is critical to use highly refined coconut oil so the oil (and resulting pizza) does not taste like coconuts (just my two cents).....

Yeah, I used an organic refined oil for this. I wonder how unrefined would effect flavor. I probably wouldn't want to use it at 3% but it might be fine at 1%
I use cold press unrefined for skin and hair and use refined for cooking as unrefined has such a low smoke point anyways.


Here's what Chau said about coconut oil.

Carl, a few years ago I tested side by side oil versus butter flavored shortening in my NY doughs.  What I noticed is that oil gives more of a wet softness to the crumb and shortening more of a drier soft texture.  For my taste, I prefer the shortening and have used it since.  I recently gave coconut oil a try since it is a solid at room temps like shortening and I have it sitting on counter staring at me while I make dough.   I didn't notice any flavor or textural changes in the crumb when comparing shortening to coconut oil and decided to make the switch since coconut oil is healthier than shortening.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 22, 2016, 07:53:44 PM
Those two extra dough balls I was saving sure didn't last long...  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 24, 2016, 11:19:02 PM
Made two random 6 hour doughs today for some family. I stretched it, they topped it with mushrooms, ham, red onion, and bell pepper. Boars head mozzarella, parm, canned san marzanos from their garden. 6 minutes @ 550 convection, same setup as the first post in this thread. I wish I had a convection oven myself. I like the way it browns without broiling, even with the stone on the oven floor.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 27, 2016, 11:35:22 PM
Over vs Under
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 30, 2016, 11:13:55 PM
Sauce is Muir Glen whole peeled with salt + pepper
First pie is tomato, fresh + dry basil, sliced garlic, California Olive Ranch EVOO post bake
Cheese pizza is DOP Parmigiano Reggiano, Saputo Gold aged mozzarella, Bel Fiore Organic fresh mozzarella, Los Altos Menonita  + organic wild Greek oregano

Bake time is 4 minutes.

Dough
500 flour
305 water
12 salt
1/8t IDY

14" TF=.075 330g dough balls

I feel like my last few bakes have been so good, maybe the pictures are poor but the pies have been great. I feel like I'm suddenly honing in on where I really want to be. I know there is large debate on bake time, but it totally makes the pizza in my opinion. This dough could be 4 or 5 different pizzas easily depending just on time. I need to start weighing my cheese again because it is difficult right now for me to properly gauge. Dough flavor is excellent.

Things that are helping me a lot right now - Not going crazy with hydration, not worrying about an attractive crumb, not late balling, making a thinner pizza, and a quick bake is really doing it for me.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 31, 2016, 08:50:46 AM
Ryan--these look great!


Can you elaborate on this:
Quote
Things that are helping me a lot right now - Not going crazy with hydration, not worrying about an attractive crumb, not late balling,
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 31, 2016, 10:20:32 AM
I agree about going thin and quick. It helps the melt and resulting flavor.

What do you like so much about your recent pies?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 31, 2016, 12:47:02 PM
Ryan--these look great!


Can you elaborate on this:

Thanks Bill!

Just my thoughts; With the right bake time I don't find high hydration necessary to keep my crumb from drying out or needing enrichment, and I think the rim on what people think of as NY pizza (whatever that is) is not big enough to have a real pretty crumb. Enrichment not being bad either, depends on what kind of pie you want to make. At 4 minutes I don't need any, at 7 minutes I probably want some.

On late balling - after seeing members like Walter and Glutenboy getting eggshell crusts without re-balling, I don't think it's necessary to get that result; and the dough balls up much easier at ambient temp. Late balling I find more necessary when doing a long CF in baggies where the dough can lose its shape. Storing the dough balls in Rubbermaid containers holds its shape. I'm not doing a bulk ferment now either.

I agree about going thin and quick. It helps the melt and resulting flavor.

What do you like so much about your recent pies?

Ingredients, thickness factor, bake setup, dough procedure. TF=.075 and a 4 minute bake with my particular setup is giving me a golden brown pie without a dried out rim that I'm loving.

I'll post my dough workflow in a few days, I want to do some more experiments before I post but my latest dough is really easy to work with and the flavor is great.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 31, 2016, 02:31:17 PM
Thanks Ryan...so many variables every time,  right? If you find something you love, sticking with it is a great plan.. I'm finding I have a few go-to's ...Looking at notes time after time, patterns emerge, then I test and confirm these are favorites...Of course, there's always something to keep it interesting. Today I'm working with one DB that should have needed about 12-14 hours of RT, and that's come and gone...so I'm doing a garage-force (GF?  :-D ). Hot as blazes in the garage so I stuck the dough container in there and will keep an eye on it...If I hear a loud POP, well then I blew the lid off!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 31, 2016, 11:22:59 PM
I'm not doing much RT fermenting right now. I pretty much try and get my dough out and preheat the oven at the same time and bake after an hour warm up. Prepping everything while I wait. I just got a food processor though so I may try prepping or making dough with that.

The reheats on the tomato/garlic/basil pie were so good, that one will be going into my rotation for sure, it reminds me of a pizza I had once. It must be the way the parm and EVOO intermingle post bake. And I think there are a lot of advantages to doing a plain base sauce and adjusting for each pie. I feel like a "pizza sauce" has to be bolder to stand up to whatever topping combo is thrown at it. By throwing down a plain tomato base you can take it anywhere, like I wouldn't have wanted oregano on this basil pie, it would have threw it off if it was in the sauce. Now I understand why some do it this way.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 01, 2016, 04:11:57 PM
Just tried the food processor - the dough came together as fast as folks say.

Same formula
500 flour (100%)
305 water (61%)
12 salt (2.4%)
1/8t IDY

Pulled the dough out and let it rest for 15 or 20 minutes, balled at 330 grams (14" TF=.075) into the fridge for a few days until I want pizza. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 01, 2016, 05:08:44 PM
Hi Ryan, I agree using a food processor works great, as long as you don't do any of three things - overload the food processor, over mix the dough or overheat the dough. But that is not why I'm typing this.

I can't figure out where the rest of your pizza dough went, two 330 gm balls should not have used it all up (unless I'm missing something) - no big deal but it just got me wondering ???
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 01, 2016, 06:13:36 PM
Hi Ryan, I agree using a food processor works great, as long as you don't do any of three things - overload the food processor, over mix the dough or overheat the dough. But that is not why I'm typing this.

I can't figure out where the rest of your pizza dough went, two 330 gm balls should not have used it all up (unless I'm missing something) - no big deal but it just got me wondering ???

Hi Norm,

I hope I didn't over mix. I just pulsed it, will probably mix even less next time though. Do you think there is any importance to flour into water vs water into flour for the food processor?

As for the rest of the dough - It's used in my new dough procedure I have been messing with. Old dough. pate fermente. And I've really been liking it. I'm not bulk fermenting, using a poolish, or re-balling anymore and I think my pizza is better than ever and the workflow is simpler. Bakeries using the technique are baking every day - since I'm not it just increases in flavor until I need more dough from its own extended cold fermentation.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 01, 2016, 06:39:05 PM
Great idea - I have never tried this with pizza dough but it sounds really interesting. I guess if you don't get around to making any pizza in a few weeks you can just freeze the aged sponge (and pull it out when you do make a pie)?

About your question "Do you think there is any importance to flour into water vs water into flour for the food processor?", I don't know but maybe someone on this board who is much more "one with the dough" can help with an answer that makes sense. I just dumped it all in when using my food processor in the past - for over a year I have been using my Kitchenmaid mixer exclusively.

Switching gears -- I was at Winco today and I remembered someone asked about the ingredients in their dough, what's left of my brain is telling me that was you - if not, sorry for the photo  below.

PS. Thanks for the info and great idea for improving dough flavor profile - it is a keeper!!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on August 01, 2016, 07:01:02 PM
Norm,

Do you have the Nutrition Facts label for the WinCo dough and also the total weight of the dough ball?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 01, 2016, 07:16:12 PM
Sorry no - I just took a photo today - I did not buy any. I'll try to snag more info next time I'm at the store - to the best of my recollection I don't believe any nutrition info was listed on the label.

But like I said - I will check next time...
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on August 01, 2016, 07:18:08 PM
Do you think there is any importance to flour into water vs water into flour for the food processor?
Ryan,

I addressed the above question here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291;topicseen#msg19291

This is also a good thread on the use of a food processor:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

Once you understand the pros and cons of a food processor, you will be able to make just about any type of pizza dough using the processor. But you can't go too high on the hydration, and there are limitations on the amounts of dough that can be made at one time.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 01, 2016, 09:56:10 PM
Great idea - I have never tried this with pizza dough but it sounds really interesting. I guess if you don't get around to making any pizza in a few weeks you can just freeze the aged sponge (and pull it out when you do make a pie)?

About your question "Do you think there is any importance to flour into water vs water into flour for the food processor?", I don't know but maybe someone on this board who is much more "one with the dough" can help with an answer that makes sense. I just dumped it all in when using my food processor in the past - for over a year I have been using my Kitchenmaid mixer exclusively.

Switching gears -- I was at Winco today and I remembered someone asked about the ingredients in their dough, what's left of my brain is telling me that was you - if not, sorry for the photo  below.

PS. Thanks for the info and great idea for improving dough flavor profile - it is a keeper!!!!

That's what I was thinking, just freeze it. No more work than starting up another poolish but the window to work with is much longer. I first started out doing a "fridge sponge" basically a small poolish I would refrigerate with the total formula IDY and would add that in place of dry yeast minus the proper flour + water ratio to my dough as the single source of yeast. I was liking that but I figured I'm baking frequently enough that I might as well stop starting from scratch each time.

Thanks for posting that WinCo dough. They should have you re-write the directions, if people were turning out pies like you did from that store bought dough they would probably stop ringing the 'Hut!  ;D

Ryan,

I addressed the above question here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19291;topicseen#msg19291

This is also a good thread on the use of a food processor:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

Once you understand the pros and cons of a food processor, you will be able to make just about any type of pizza dough using the processor. But you can't go too high on the hydration, and there are limitations on the amounts of dough that can be made at one time.

Peter

Thanks Peter,

The food processor is an interesting addition as I've posted a few times where I've made dough in the blender. With such a narrow container it works better at higher hydrations, I've even done 80% ciabatta dough in it. The narrow size makes for a limited batch volume as well though. Other than doing that a few times I've made all my doughs by hand. I figure the food processor could be a good way to show friends and family how to make pizzas since it comes together so fast and people tend to be rather intimidated by dough for some reason.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 02, 2016, 04:44:32 AM
Hey Ryan,


This is great stuff!  Did I miss it or could you detail your old dough procedure...the old dough itself. as well as how,  and what percent of it  go into the new dough. I'd like to play with this  :) Thanks!
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 02, 2016, 10:59:20 AM
Sure Bill, I'll make a more thorough post with pictures next time I put one together.

I first started with a "fridge sponge" as I described a few posts above, which was equal parts flour and water (50-100g total) and the formulas IDY. I let that go overnight in the fridge and then brought to room temp until ripe, then added that like a levain and mixed. The fridge sponge was itself an experiment based on my flying sponge experiment. My thinking was the usability window is longer than a normal poolish, so I would always have a "flavor booster" on hand if someone wanted pizza today - but like I said, why start from scratch every week. That's where the old dough comes in instead.

I noted somewhere I was coming up short when scaling my final dough, so I started doing my doughs in even bakers percents like many of the Neapolitan pizza makers do in 500 or 1000g batches. I'm doing two 330g dough balls and saving 100g of old dough, which is around 12% with this formula leaves enough extra dough to adjust your thickness factor on two 14" pizzas up to around .092 (I'm at .075)

All I think that's important is that you get some flavor into your dough and save some. I don't think it matters too much how you go about it and what formula you use, so long as you leave some for next time.

I might adjust this formula down to exacts when I get a new scale, but for now this provides some adjustability.

The formula is
500 flour (100%)
305 water (61%)
12 salt (2.4%)
.4 IDY (.2%) 1/8 teaspoon

Which for me is 100g of Old Dough + 438g flour + 267g water + salt & IDY.

To make dough I remove the old dough from the fridge
Measure out the remaining formula water (267g in this case) at a pretty warm temperature and add that to the old dough.
I let it double hydrate for 20 or 30 minutes to bring it up to temp and make it easy to incorporate like a sponge instead of a biga.
Depending on mix technique this may not be necessary. Especially with the food processor but most of my experience is based on hand mixing.
I mix and knead until moderate gluten development
Rest for 10-20 minutes
Ball; and refrigerate in containers greased with coconut oil.

No poolish, no bulk ferment, no late ball. Everything is done in one step.

"old dough" double hydrated in the remaining formula water, ready to be incorporated.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 02, 2016, 09:26:26 PM
Thanks Ryan...but you know I'm math-challenged, to  wit:


I don't quite see what percent of the total dough weight is old dough...and I do see that you're including the amount of water in the old dough into the total formula water. Does that mean you always use the same formula for the old dough? And you base the amount of water on the  weight of the old dough that's used in the new dough?


After they go into fridge how long are you holding them before bake..same day, overnight, multi-day?  Have you done a taste-test comparison to a poolish with same flour and hydration?
 
Thanks!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 02, 2016, 10:24:46 PM
Thanks Ryan...but you know I'm math-challenged, to  wit:


I don't quite see what percent of the total dough weight is old dough...and I do see that you're including the amount of water in the old dough into the total formula water. Does that mean you always use the same formula for the old dough? And you base the amount of water on the  weight of the old dough that's used in the new dough?


After they go into fridge how long are you holding them before bake..same day, overnight, multi-day?  Have you done a taste-test comparison to a poolish with same flour and hydration?
 
Thanks!

I hear ya with that math thing!  ;D

Maybe someone will chime in and double check me. 100 grams of old dough divided by 817 (total weight) = .1223 x100 (%) = 12.2%
This doesn't include the IDY weight which is .4 grams according to the Lehmann calculator. My scale only measures in 1 gram increments so I didn't bother adding it to the above equation. I'm including the water and flour of the old dough at 61% hydration, yes same hydration each time - which I know could be a difficult concept for us tinkerers. I must admit it's about the longest I've held a hydration too; but I find 61% is great for me at a 4 minute bake. I might adjust it or enrich it with some oil if I was to do a 7 minute bake. One thing I haven't adjusted for is the salt in the old dough which might be important depending on where you want to be with salt.

I've been doing around a 3-4 day CF with the dough, and usually will make dough the next day or two after with the old dough. Roy's thread inspired me a bit with this as he is cold fermenting for a very extended time so I figured the dough should be fine for quite a few days. I was doing poolish, bulk ferment, and re-ball before and I don't feel like I'm losing anything. The test I really want to do is a fast dough to see how much flavor is really in my old dough. All I know is my last few pies have been really good. 4 minute bake, stone on the lowest rack, broiler on the full bake. Maybe it's just me but it seems to be less chewy than when I use oil, but maybe because I usually use oil on longer bakes. I really like a 4 minute pie, it's still fresh and tender like a fast pie, not dried out; but in long enough to get good malliard reaction browning and a crispness on the bottom. Would be interesting to see what happens with a steel.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 02, 2016, 11:27:16 PM
Thanks for the extra explanation, Ryan...you're doing great work..wish we could all taste each other's  pies, it's so ironic that we can see and know everything about fellow members' pies, except for the most important part of all...how they taste!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 03, 2016, 12:44:37 AM
Yeah, it would be really interesting to see how things compared.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 04:50:00 AM
My only real-life tasting has been at Norma's.. ,,,They are outstanding flavor, texture, all-around great pies. We tried her regular boardwalk pie, an  Americana and a Detroit...all so good!
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 03, 2016, 08:01:25 AM
Ryan's pies look so good -- one time I decided to print one out on my inkjet and have a taste - then I realized... that would not work - the printer would totally mess up the TF  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 08:17:22 AM
Though I hear Sclafani makes a fine red ink  :-D >:D


Hey Norm, by the way, we reheated those leftover slices in a Breville toaster oven back at the airbnb, and they were as good..or maybe even more amazing..than the night we got them. Only thing missing was you guys and Brian  :) 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 03, 2016, 09:51:06 AM
Thanks Bill and I'm glad the reheat turned out so good. Also, thanks for the info on paper bag pizza. I checked it out online and it looks great, plus they make a pie with cashew cheese so that is something my wife is interested in trying.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 12:00:45 PM
You bet , Norm..that whole food pod is terrific. Lots of cool stuff there, and tables to enjoy it at.  Save room for ice cream at Salt and Straw a little west on Division, and/or Lauretta Jean's, around 34th/Divison south side of street, for their wonderful pies
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 03, 2016, 12:28:57 PM
I made three 275g balls for batards last night at 70% that I'm thinking of converting into Not-Even-That-Nearly-Politan pizzas for lunch  ;D
I haven't done a 2 minute pie in a while... will I yet again confirm I've had it wrong ALL ALONG!  ::)
I'm thinking Marinara.

That pizza you guys enjoyed in Portland looked great, cool experience to put a person to the pie! Toaster oven reheat is solid. I've been without a toaster oven for a while, had one forever til it kicked the crumb tray. I usually reheat on the stove, pan over medium heat with the lid on; but I've always been the cold pizza addict, and I really don't mind/possibly prefer cold slices straight from the fridge. My FAVORITE slice being a fresh one cooled to room temp an hour or two after bake  ;D



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 02:52:50 PM
Yup, I do the skillet with cover at home too..our toaster oven is fairly worthless...this airbnb had a great one and it made quick work of two huge slices at a time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 03, 2016, 04:24:33 PM
500
350
9
1/8t

The dough was inspired by Mitch's bread. I wasn't planning on making pizza much less this style. I would probably bump the salt up to make this style but they were still really good. I seasoned them with coarse sea salt to try to make up for it.

The tomato pieces were probably a bit too big. And I should have wetted the basil more as it cooked a bit too much. Maybe I should do basil post bake with the intensity of the broiler. These were 90 seconds, stone on the top shelf, broiler full bake. I turn the broiler on before I stretch and top the dough to give it a few minutes to kick in and blast the stone. That's where steel would come in I bet.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
They look wonderful..which recipe did you mean? AP flour?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 03, 2016, 08:43:54 PM
They look wonderful..which recipe did you mean? AP flour?

Thanks Bill! Lehi Roller Mills Artisan Unbleached All Purpose flour (they have it at the .99 cent store in SoCal) Someone got it for me, first time trying it. Tastes good!
Just a 70% hydrated AP dough, 1.8% salt. I was going to make bread and try doing less salt so that's why the number is a bit low.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2016, 09:09:59 PM
It's really an amazing bake for a home oven! 90 secs! How long did your stone need to reheat between pies? Did you say you weren't IR'ing these??!! based on that time, and the look of the rim and underside, wouldn't be you be in the 800 zone ? In a home oven? Come on buddy, 'fess up: You got a rocket launcher in there, right? ;) >:D :-D   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 03, 2016, 10:02:13 PM
 ^^^

I would not have thought you could get a bottom that looks like those on stone (or steel for that matter) in an unmodded home oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 03, 2016, 10:34:45 PM
It's really an amazing bake for a home oven! 90 secs! How long did your stone need to reheat between pies? Did you say you weren't IR'ing these??!! based on that time, and the look of the rim and underside, wouldn't be you be in the 800 zone ? In a home oven? Come on buddy, 'fess up: You got a rocket launcher in there, right? ;) >:D :-D   

Thanks Bill - Probably 5-10 minutes between pies. I don't have an IR, I wish I did, I'd like to know the temp. I've never done a pie this fast ever, might be my first time eating a 90 second pie because even a lot of the wood fired places are doing 2-3 minute pizzas. It's challenging with no window to know when its done without losing all the heat.

^^^

I would not have thought you could get a bottom that looks like those on stone (or steel for that matter) in an unmodded home oven.

I'm surprised too, I haven't made this style in a while and I've never gotten under 2 minutes. All I can think of is I recently was given a 13" stone - probably from a toaster oven, which I have underneath my cracked 15" stone for extra support. 1 hour preheat, old Kenmore electric oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 04, 2016, 08:28:11 AM
Pretty interesting...sounds like maybe those two stones together have you at about an inch of stone..must be that heat store, combined with the direct flame of the broiler, is taking you to an amazing place.


Either that, or that rocket launcher  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 04, 2016, 11:40:43 AM
I can neither confirm nor deny said "experimental propulsion device". In fact, this message will self destruct in 3...2...  ;D

They are really thin cheapo stones so it's probably only like a 1/2 inch total. I imagine a solid 1/2" stone would work even better. I'm surprised too, I've gotten "nearly-politan" type pizzas before but nothing that looks like that. Obviously this discovery is doing little to halt my pizza quest.

I guess the main thing is my oven is not cutting off like modern ovens, but I wonder how high the oven itself is getting. I assume the broiler and the stone are trying   to compensate as I doubt the air temp is as hot as a 90 second pie from a wood oven. Is it possible I have a bad sensor and the oven just isn't regulating dial setting to air temp anymore?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2016, 02:50:18 PM
Ryan,

What you did reminded me of a thread by Pete Waldman at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6585.msg56478#msg56478

I don't know if Pete's broiler cuts off at a certain temperature but it is possible that it did not in his case. My oven is an old Whirlpool electric oven and the broiler cuts off when the oven temperature reaches a certain temperature. I might be able to reengage it by opening up the oven door but it's a hassle to do that and it perhaps disrupts the overall temperature profile.

I should also note that Pete was using a Fibrament stone, which is less conductive than a standard Cordierite stone. That may account for the longer bake times in his case.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 04, 2016, 03:48:11 PM
When bad sensors turn good!  It's a self-modded oven :-D ...wish you had an IR...  they're like 16 bucks on Amazon,


https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-774-Non-contact-Thermometer/dp/B00837ZGRY/?tag=pmak-20


  and it's in the name of pizza science..you won't regret having it..I've got a pretty good hunch that baby would read right in the 800F zone
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 04, 2016, 09:51:35 PM
I should Prime one over  :)

3:30 bake, old dough method.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 04, 2016, 09:59:40 PM
What's for dinner tonight, last night, tomorrow night, last Tuesday? Wait, I know  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 04, 2016, 10:38:35 PM
What's for dinner tonight, last night, tomorrow night, last Tuesday? Wait, I know  :-D

"Pizza in the morning, Pizza in the evening, Pizza at supper time!"

This is the last for a bit though... I want to go in a different direction. More 90 second bakes... I like where Mike's going with his "Artisan" pies.
And this "eating excessive pizza" ALWAYS happens when I increase pizza size above 12 inches, time and time again. And I always want to make bigger pizzas, 16 or 18 inches, for who?  ;D

I actually didn't really like these though... Someone in the house who is less peculiar in taste than I replenished the olive oil with a less than desirable variant...  ::)

Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 11, 2016, 04:53:42 PM
This is possibly the smoothest dough Ive worked with. I was watching some baguette videos and tried a few of their techniques. I autolysed all of the flour and water until my flying sponge was ripe (25g flour + 25g water + 1/8t IDY ) then took it to the counter and cut in the salt and sponge. Finished with a few stretch and folds.

The dough ball was a little small for my big pan ( 19.5 X 13.5 ) versus what I normally do; I have a few batches of experiments (old dough and such) in the fridge and figured I'd clear this one out. 66% hydration baked for about 15 minutes.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 15, 2016, 10:13:50 PM
Onion focaccia
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 16, 2016, 06:51:05 AM
That looks really nice Ryan - did you use your pie dough or something else?  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 16, 2016, 11:21:43 AM
Thanks a lot Norm! Same lean pizza dough with a bit of old dough. Split it in half for shredded BBQ jackfruit (vegan pulled "pork") Cole slaw, and a pickle.

This dough had been in the fridge since Bill reminded me I was eating more than the FDA's RDA of pizza
The crumb seems quite open for a 61% hydration dough.


I'm still not really sure what the difference is between focaccia, bianca, grandma pie, Sicilian, in teglia, etc.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 16, 2016, 10:40:48 PM
75-80 seconds in my home oven
250g dough balls 63% water

Also a 14" tomato pie, baked for 6 minutes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2016, 10:43:05 PM
75-80 seconds in my home oven
250g dough balls 63% water

Nice.

Steel or stone?
Broiler?
Any oven mods at all?
What flour?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on August 16, 2016, 10:47:49 PM
Really nice work Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 16, 2016, 11:19:08 PM
Nice.

Steel or stone?
Broiler?
Any oven mods at all?
What flour?

Thanks Craig,

Here's my setup. Thin cracked pizza stone on top of a smaller not cracked stone. Broiler running a few minutes before stretching to saturate the stone and stays on the full bake. Flour was La Romanella High Gluten. I would have rather used AP but I'm out. I haven't done anything to the oven, it just gets hot and doesn't seem to shut off to the corresponding dial temp. If I set the temp to 250 degrees it will go to over 550.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2016, 11:22:37 PM
Nice work.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 16, 2016, 11:27:09 PM
Really nice work Ryan!

Thanks Bob! Forgive me for the horrible photos. It's funny how bad my pizzas look when I lose my natural lighting.

Nice work.

Thanks Craig, I forgot to add that the stones were on the highest rack tier for these fast bakes. I put it on the bottom for NY.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 23, 2016, 12:58:02 AM
 Made some pizzas for some family in town. Didn't want to bring a bunch of gear so decided on a pan pizza.

1000 gram dough balls in my big pan
19.5 X 13.5

Half ham and pineapple half salami and basil.

Other pie is sliced garlic, local cherry tomatoes, WMM, fresh mozzarella, EVOO, half artichokes.



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: kramer73 on August 24, 2016, 09:40:06 AM
They look really good!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 24, 2016, 10:19:47 AM
Spectacular - and BTW - that is how I remember them looking back in the 70s - great work Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on August 24, 2016, 10:28:25 AM
They look really good!

^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 24, 2016, 12:18:15 PM
Thanks Kramer, Norm, Hans!

They were really good. I did a party cut and watched the squares disappear. I haven't done a long room temp rise in a while, crust was really flavorful. Around 20 hours at RT. Baked at 525 convection. 65% water 3% fat (olive and coconut oil)

It's nice to be able to make a nice big pie!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 25, 2016, 12:29:56 PM
Everybody kept telling me how much they loved this pie. I wasn't sure what to expect, the experiment was to see what would happen if I made a thin crust pan pizza, using the pan for size and ease and not necessarily to support a thicker Sicilian type pie Like I did the other night. 80% water and it actually took 17 minutes to bake which seems quite long, but everyone couldn't stop raving about it and how crispy it was. I may try a much lower hydration and see what happens, although part of the test was to see If I could just pour the dough in. Long room temp rise, just used the tine of a fork to eyeball a tiny tiny bit of IDY and let her rip. One taster loved it but did not believe me when I said I covered it in fresh mozzarella. I agree the Galbani fresh is really bland. I've had it before and knew that already. I guess $3 only gets you so much. I don't think I will use fresh mozzarella anymore other than Bel Fiore.





 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on August 25, 2016, 12:34:55 PM
Everybody kept telling me how much they loved this pie. I wasn't sure what to expect, the experiment was to see what would happen if I made a thin crust pan pizza, using the pan for size and ease and not necessarily to support a thicker Sicilian type pie Like I did the other night. 80% water and it actually took 17 minutes to bake which seems quite long, but everyone couldn't stop raving about it and how crispy it was. I may try a much lower hydration and see what happens, although part of the test was to see If I could just pour the dough in. Long room temp rise, just used the tine of a fork to eyeball a tiny tiny bit of IDY and let her rip. One taster loved it but did not believe me when I said I covered it in fresh mozzarella. I agree the Galbani fresh is really bland. I've had it before and knew that already. I guess $3 only gets you so much. I don't think I will use fresh mozzarella anymore other than Bel Fiore.

Looks great Ryan!  I agree finding great fresh mozzarella isn't easy.  I don't use it that often because I haven't found one I love.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 25, 2016, 01:06:46 PM
Looks great Ryan!  I agree finding great fresh mozzarella isn't easy.  I don't use it that often because I haven't found one I love.

Thanks Jeff! Have you tried Bel Fiore? They are based in the Bay Area, but I can get it here in San Diego.

I used California Gold aged mozzarella the other day as my local Mexican market had that instead of the Saputo Gold I normally purchase from them. It was still pretty good compared to most retail mozzarella available.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on August 25, 2016, 01:16:38 PM
No I haven't tried it, but I'd love to.  I am in LA.  I'll call around to see if I can find it at whole foods or one of the main supermarket chains.

edit:  I just called and WF doesn't carry bel fiore, unfortunately.  They do have Angelo and Franco which I haven't tried.
Where do you get bel fiore in SD?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 25, 2016, 01:41:56 PM
No I haven't tried it, but I'd love to.  I am in LA.  I'll call around to see if I can find it at whole foods or one of the main supermarket chains.

edit:  I just called and WF doesn't carry bel fiore, unfortunately.  They do have Angelo and Franco which I haven't tried.
Where do you get bel fiore in SD?

I get it at a small independent grocer, you might contact them http://www.belfiorecheese.com they should be able to provide a local retailer. I can't imagine it not being available in LA if I can get it. I don't think any of the big chains carry it that I know of, these guys are pretty small.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 26, 2016, 08:27:46 PM
Another pan pie, opposite end of the hydration spectrum. 60% water
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 27, 2016, 09:12:30 AM
Also looks great..how would you compare the two pies in taste and texture?
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 27, 2016, 02:13:21 PM
Also looks great..how would you compare the two pies in taste and texture?

Surprisingly similar. The other one was actually a little crispier, I think the added cherry tomatoes added a lot of moisture. I prefer to have a few hours to prep wet toppings. I put the whole 8 oz mozzarella ball on too. Leftover slices were still crunchy last night after hours of refrigeration, crunch factor is there. Still trying to figure out the ideal bake setup for these pan pies. Not sure if it's better to keep it on the middle rack or start on the bottom and move to top.

One taster really wanted cherry tomatoes for the burst of flavor... I keep trying to get the message across that it makes the pizza worse unless they are incredibly fresh. These were a little acidic; they look great though, love the color.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 27, 2016, 02:58:20 PM
They do....so tell your tester he can have a bowl of them as a salad ;)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 27, 2016, 03:27:54 PM
Yeah, or maybe I'll roast them whole and try that. Would add some umami. I cooked the sauce last time too, so more moisture there as well. I might try sliced mozzarella next time over fresh, probably would,taste good on this crispy pizza.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 05, 2016, 09:08:18 PM
5 hour dough

Better with fresh tomatoes from the farmers market.

 .1 TF 15 min bake
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 05, 2016, 09:50:17 PM
Liking those pies!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 05, 2016, 10:25:40 PM
Thanks Craig, first bake with Natural Directions Organic unbleached flour. I liked it but I want to try a longer rise... so I'll have to wait until tomorrow  ;D

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on September 05, 2016, 10:30:29 PM
5 hour dough

Better with fresh tomatoes from the farmers market.

 .1 TF 15 min bake

Looks delicious Ryan!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on September 05, 2016, 10:40:13 PM
Looking good!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 06, 2016, 10:21:19 AM
Cheers Bob, Hans! Thanks for the kind words!  :pizza:
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 06, 2016, 11:17:30 PM
This is my attempt at NY pizza, based on Andrew Belluci's formula modified for a poolish.

Flour (100%): 376.45 g  |  13.28 oz | 0.83 lbs
Water (57%): 214.58 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (.3%): 1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (2%): 7.53 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Oil (1%): 3.76 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Sugar (2%): 7.53 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.89 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
Total (162.3%):610.98 g | 21.55 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = 0.07
Single Ball:305.49 g | 10.78 oz | 0.67 lbs

14" pizzas, 4 oz of cheese, two mini ladles of sauce (3.7oz) per pie.
Flour is Natural Directions Organic Unbleached all purpose. I was going to make Sicilians with this flour, for NY I would have liked a little more chew but that would be my only nitpick.

The evening before baking I made a poolish of 150g flour + 150g water + 1/8t IDY which I let rise at room temperature until almost ripe, then refrigerated overnight. The next morning I removed from the fridge. I dissolved the sugar and salt in the remaining 64g water, then added the oil and set aside.
I added the poolish to the food processor along with 226g flour + 1/4t IDY, and ran the processor on low while pouring the water/salt/sugar/oil mixture in through the feed tube until cohesive, less than 30 seconds.
I removed the dough and let it rest on the counter for 10 minutes, then divided and balled. The dough balls rose at room temperature for about 4.5 hours before stretching and baking at 6-7 minutes at 550+, oven preheated for an hour, stone on the second to lowest shelf, no broiler. If the top needs more color transfer to the top rack for an extra minute or so. The only thing I might change is reduce the yeast to 1/8t instead of 1/4t IDY when mixing the final dough for a longer rise, but its hot in California right now.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on September 06, 2016, 11:32:59 PM
Looks great invertedisdead!  Should your TF be next to the single ball numbers instead of the Total?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 06, 2016, 11:51:56 PM
Thanks Sod! I copy and pasted the table, that's just the way the dough generator lays it out I suppose.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 07, 2016, 02:48:39 AM
Looks great invertedisdead!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 07, 2016, 07:10:24 AM
^^^
^^^ ^^^ Great slice! Can you confirm that the size of the finished pie was 14"? (Mine sometimes shrink as I launch.) I'm currently experimenting with the TF and cheese amount for a 14" pie and yours is great reference.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 07, 2016, 07:18:16 AM
^^^

Nice slice!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 07, 2016, 08:55:15 AM
Uh, might be too good to join the HH parade of outer borough neon and plastic sign slice joints . Poolish...those guys ain't making no stinking poolish!


Serious, Ryan..looks great
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 07, 2016, 11:24:29 AM
Thanks all! Again!

^^^ ^^^ Great slice! Can you confirm that the size of the finished pie was 14"? (Mine sometimes shrink as I launch.) I'm currently experimenting with the TF and cheese amount for a 14" pie and yours is great reference.

Thanks Matt, it was pretty close to 14", I've never done a hydration this low, made it really easy to hit that .07 TF without getting thin spots and it wasn't elastic and springy at all. I decided to not cheese along the rim but if you do you may want to adjust for that.

I didn't cut the pie equally though, that's how I was able to get that huge slice out of a 14" pie. I sliced the pie kind of like this http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/04/how-to-get-large-slices-of-pizza-from-small-ovens-or-pies.html

Uh, might be too good to join the HH parade of outer borough neon and plastic sign slice joints . Poolish...those guys ain't making no stinking poolish!


Serious, Ryan..looks great

 :-D

Thanks Bill! I'm from the pizza deprived town of St. Louis, so I think it goes to show it doesn't matter one bit where you are geographically... with internet access anybody can learn to make this pie or any other style from the incredible people on here.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 07, 2016, 12:42:04 PM
I've never done a hydration this low, made it really easy to hit that .07 TF without getting thin spots and it wasn't elastic and springy at all.

I'd like to discuss this NY slice joint look and hydration as a factor.

I've personally never gone lower than around 61% unless I went really low trying to make a bar pie or cracker crust - I'm usually around 65% these days.   Do you think that was the main factor in keeping that thin, small rimmed NY slice joint look?  I know most of those places use high gluten (and bromated?) flour so I'm pretty sure flour type has nothing to do with it.

Were there any downsides that you noticed by going that low from your normal hydration level?  I'm sure the flavor was great due to the poolish, but texture-wise was the crumb more "bready" and dense?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on September 07, 2016, 01:15:40 PM

I didn't cut the pie equally though, that's how I was able to get that huge slice out of a 14" pie. I sliced the pie kind of like this http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/04/how-to-get-large-slices-of-pizza-from-small-ovens-or-pies.html


Wow.  That says something about the rigidity of my thinking.  Slicing like that had never occurred to me!  And I thought I had to make bigger pies to get bigger slices!!  I thought the normal pie cut and the square party cut were the only two options (I think Garvey referred to the pie cut as "barbaric" which I think is hilarious  :-D )
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 07, 2016, 01:58:44 PM
I'd like to discuss this NY slice joint look and hydration as a factor.

I've personally never gone lower than around 61% unless I went really low trying to make a bar pie or cracker crust - I'm usually around 65% these days.   Do you think that was the main factor in keeping that thin, small rimmed NY slice joint look?  I know most of those places use high gluten (and bromated?) flour so I'm pretty sure flour type has nothing to do with it.

Were there any downsides that you noticed by going that low from your normal hydration level?  I'm sure the flavor was great due to the poolish, but texture-wise was the crumb more "bready" and dense?

I also had never gone under 60% besides a laminated cracker. I went into it with a preconceived notion that the low hydration was to make it easy to stretch which was true, but I was thinking this is to account for less than perfect employees in a slice shop which is where I may have been wrong. My uncle told me it reminded him of a pizza of his youth which I felt was a pretty strong compliment to spark an old memory; I actually thought the same - It's funny because I know we weren't even thinking of the same pizzeria, but I have to say the texture was excellent, it was thin, crispy yet pliable.

As far as the small rim, I think hydration is a factor, but I also think those guys don't try so hard to keep a rim and that is one of the tricks to it staying small. That's why I took a picture of the stretched skin, you can see there's not much to the rim and I sauced as close as I could get which is also probably pretty important in keeping it from getting too thick. You want to flatten the entire dough ball more than other styles before you start pushing air to the rim otherwise you will already start out with a pretty large rim, which is what I used to do. I've been trying for a while to get a small rim like this with my 4 minute pies but I think this was my best effort so far.

As far as the crumb, I said on Reply 30 in this thread.

I think the rim on what people think of as NY pizza (whatever that is) is not big enough to have a real pretty crumb.

It's somewhat "dense" in that it's not really open, but I think that's a relationship to the small size, can only fit so many clowns in a car  ;D
As far as "bready" I would say no, but I might say maybe. If anything it's bready in a crisp artisan bread sense, I think the small rim size does not make it possible to be bready in a soft way like a chain pizza. Especially with the underside crispness due to the thickness factor, hydration, bake time, and cheese/sauce ratio.

I can't say they were any downsides by going lower than normal in hydration, I've been in the low 60's lately. It made it really easy to stretch an even pie to .07 TF which is pretty thin. I don't think I'll change TF for this pizza. You can see in the pic of the stretched skin all the bubbles and how airy it was, I thought the dough might be dead and lifeless with the low hydration. I would use a higher gluten flour though, at least a bread flour. A little more chew would have sealed the deal.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 07, 2016, 02:05:15 PM
Wow.  That says something about the rigidity of my thinking.  Slicing like that had never occurred to me!  And I thought I had to make bigger pies to get bigger slices!!  I thought the normal pie cut and the square party cut were the only two options (I think Garvey referred to the pie cut as "barbaric" which I think is hilarious  :-D )

Haha, Sod I hope you try it with your 18" pies.  ;D
Then you can get a jumbo slice like they do with 24" pizzas.

Don't forget the 6 slicer!!! One of the best tricks in the book!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 07, 2016, 06:18:31 PM
This is great stuff.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on September 07, 2016, 07:08:22 PM
Ryan,

I'm kind of surprised you felt like lower hydro makes for easier stretching. I've always thought higher liquid meant the pizza kind of fell open and my own experiments from 55-65 seemed to confirm that but maybe there's another factor at play, like the flour.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2016, 07:22:33 PM
Aric,

As Ryan noted in Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43782.msg446849#msg446849, he used the Natural Directions all purpose flour. As can be seen at http://naturaldirections.com/nd-products/organic-unbleached-flour/, that is an organic untreated flour. As such, it perhaps does not need a lot of water to handle well. In many respects, I think that Ryan's NY style pizza is a throwback to times where all purpose flour was a routinely used flour for that style. It was much later that stronger flours were used that could tolerate higher hydration values.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 07, 2016, 08:56:10 PM
Ryan,

I'm kind of surprised you felt like lower hydro makes for easier stretching. I've always thought higher liquid meant the pizza kind of fell open and my own experiments from 55-65 seemed to confirm that but maybe there's another factor at play, like the flour.

Aric,

It was easier for me to stretch to the thickness factor of .07 without getting thin spots like I've been getting lately. A higher hydration dough is easier to stretch in that sometimes it stretches more than I wanted it to, in the wrong direction  ;D  the fact that it didn't "fall open" is what made it easy. The thinner I go the more I've ran into thin spots on my recent .075 TF 4 minute pizzas.

Andrew's formula is based on All Trumps at 57% hydration; this being AP probably gives a relative hydration of a few more percent regarding the way the dough handles? I'm curious to try it again maybe without the oil and sugar, maybe a point of sugar just to make sure the top gets some color... I really get turned off by NY pizzas with the copy paper white rim.

Peter you bring up a good point about the transition from AP to higher gluten flours. Were street style pies being made with AP as well at some point, or is that coal pie?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2016, 08:48:36 AM
Peter you bring up a good point about the transition from AP to higher gluten flours. Were street style pies being made with AP as well at some point, or is that coal pie?
Ryan,

In the beginning, the coal fired places ruled the roost. It wasn't until deck ovens came into being, in the mid 1940s or thereabouts, that the deck oven places started to overtake the coal fired places from a volume standpoint, although it perhaps took until the 1950s for the deck oven to gain real traction and become popular for the NY style of pizza. During this period, the most popular flours were bread flour and all purpose flour. Back then, flours used for making pizza were simply called "pizza flours". And they could be of questionable or uneven quality. Evelyne Slomon discussed some of the flour issues at Reply 41 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3443.msg29532#msg29532,

and also at Reply 47 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563.html#msg31563.

By my best estimate, it wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that the true high gluten flours gained prominence for the NY style although I suspect that there were pizza operators who experimented with high gluten flours before then. As with anything new, it takes time for matters like this to reach critical mass.

In the more specific context of the use of all purpose flour for the NY style pizza, including those pizzas made by slice places, I recalled that member Artale posted on that matter. I searched for the relevant post and it is at Reply 7 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2833.msg25750#msg25750 (see last paragraph)

I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that there are still pizza operators--maybe old timers--who use all purpose flour for the NY style, perhaps on the theory "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

For your additional information, it was when deck ovens became popular that pizza operators started to use oil and sugar in their doughs for the NY style. Member Ron Molinaro, himself a pizza operator, discussed this particular evolutionary event at Reply 3 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1053.msg9384#msg9384

As an aside, I went back to Andrew's NY style dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31477.msg312872#msg312872 and did a more specific calculation of his hydration. If Andrew used exactly 3.5 gallons of water, his actual hydration would be 58.415%. Of course, in practice, and using volumes instead of weights, there can and will be variations in hydration from batch to batch. Andrew uses high gluten flour but it is quite common for pizza operators who use high gluten flour to make the NY style to use hydration values in the range of about 57-60%, even though the high gluten flour can handle a much higher hydration.

Peter



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 08, 2016, 12:46:19 PM

Evelyne Slomon discussed some of the flour issues at Reply 41 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3443.msg29532#msg29532,

and also at Reply 47 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563.html#msg31563.

by her accounts, heckers all purpose flour back in the day were registering 12.5-13% protein which is equivalent to today's bread flours like kabf.  today's heckers AP is 11-12%.  AP flours in general are wiithin 9-12% these days, some brands like white lily are very low protein at 7.5% and desired by pastry chefs.  this is similar to what i've heard from long time distributors that wheat in general has degraded and weakened over the past century through hybridization and mass production.  therefore over decades, pizzerias needed to replace and up their flour game as time went by when their flour ceased to perform into dinner service and after.  this demand for a stronger flour may have spawned dedicated pizza flours with high protein %. 

Quote
By my best estimate, it wasn't until sometime in the 1970s that the true high gluten flours gained prominence for the NY style although I suspect that there were pizza operators who experimented with high gluten flours before then. As with anything new, it takes time for matters like this to reach critical mass.

this video was made for the 64-65 worlds fair for mastro pizza.  at 6:25, the narrator mentions high gluten flour. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8g4DxKsuik

Quote
In the more specific context of the use of all purpose flour for the NY style pizza, including those pizzas made by slice places, I recalled that member Artale posted on that matter. I searched for the relevant post and it is at Reply 7 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2833.msg25750#msg25750 (see last paragraph

I would not be the least bit surprised to learn that there are still pizza operators--maybe old timers--who use all purpose flour for the NY style, perhaps on the theory "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

i've read people here argue that a decent ny style pizza can be made with today's AP flours.  tho i would not debate a pizza can be made, it should also be explained to new pizzamakers that the crust texture will differ from a high gluten flour in very significant ways.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 08, 2016, 12:59:25 PM
it should also be explained to new pizzamakers that the crust texture will differ from a high gluten flour in very significant ways.

One of the things I've discovered about using HG flour is that it can get tough very quickly as it cools; it needs be eaten fresh out of the oven. 
That's one of the reasons I don't use it at 100% anymore.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 08, 2016, 01:09:32 PM
One of the things I've discovered about using HG flour is that it can get tough very quickly as it cools; it needs be eaten fresh out of the oven. 
That's one of the reasons I don't use it at 100% anymore.

that's one way of doing it.  another way around that would be to mix less since HG forms gluten fast, and increase the fermentation time to weaken the gluten.  if doing a 4 hour room temp rise, to go to 6 hours or increasing a 24 hour cold ferment to 48 or 72 hours to weaken the gluten bonds. 

lower protein flour has benefits in certain applications.  for instance, my pastry chef uses very low protein flours like white lily, marth white, red band, etc to achieve tenderness.  it makes great fluffy biscuits and light cakes, but it would make bad bagels.  an AP flour somewhere in the middle might be chosen to make a soft wood fire neapolitan pie.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 08, 2016, 01:57:54 PM
This is my attempt at NY pizza, based on Andrew Belluci's formula modified for a poolish.

Flour (100%): 376.45 g  |  13.28 oz | 0.83 lbs
Water (57%): 214.58 g  |  7.57 oz | 0.47 lbs
IDY (.3%): 1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (2%): 7.53 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Oil (1%): 3.76 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Sugar (2%): 7.53 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.89 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
Total (162.3%):610.98 g | 21.55 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = 0.07
Single Ball:305.49 g | 10.78 oz | 0.67 lbs

14" pizzas, 4 oz of cheese, two mini ladles of sauce (3.7oz) per pie.
Flour is Natural Directions Organic Unbleached all purpose. I was going to make Sicilians with this flour, for NY I would have liked a little more chew but that would be my only nitpick.


thanks for sharing the formula and pics.  that pie looks very nice.  i'm sure using a higher protein flour will fix your only nitpick.  i read your comment on rims on ny pies.  some are thicker, but they are generally small.  good ny pizzas have stronger sauce and cheese flavors than other styles, and imo, the dough when stretched and baked right, the crust simply acts as the textural counterpoint, and take a backseat in flavor to the sauce, cheese, topping and oil, hence no real emphasis on the rim.  there is not as much emphasis on flavor in the dough as in other styles for the same reasons ny hero sandwiches are not made with sourdough breads, but on more neutral and simple well textured italian rolls so that the flavors of the other ingredients are highlighted.

i use a 58% dough with similar %'s for salt, sugar, oil to the andrew belluci formulation.   the old school pizzerias i have spoken to pretty much swear by around 58%.  50lb bag of flour 3.5 gallons of water.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on September 08, 2016, 02:07:36 PM
HarryHaller73,

In 2014, when some of us were trying to determine if Giordano's, the famous Chicago-based deep dish pizza chain, was still using Ceresota flour, I had an exchange with Heckers in which I asked about the protein content of their Ceresota/Heckers all purpose flour. The answer I got was that their flour had a protein content on average of 11.5-12%. You can see the full nature of the exchange at Reply 129 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29776.msg302500;topicseen#msg302500

Since there are no industry standard definitions for the different classes of flours by protein content, I wonder what was considered a high gluten flour in the mid 1960s, as per the video you cited. You can see some of the confusion surrounding high gluten flour in the Heckers response in Reply 129 referenced above. Also, if you do a Google search on high gluten flour, you will see references to a range of 12-15% protein. Even the major flour millers/marketers don't have just one definition of high gluten flour. For example, King Arthur has the terms Medium Hi-Gluten (13.0 – 13.7%) and Premium Hi-Gluten (13.8 – 14.2%). And General Mills has the terms Mid-High Gluten (12.8-13.2%) and High Gluten (13.4-14.4%). These definitions appear in these documents:

http://web.archive.org/web/20060208023504/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour%20Guide.pdf

http://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx

I agree with you that conditions may have changed over the years that dictated a higher protein content than all purpose flour for the NY style. Also, today's all purpose flour is not the same as existed in the all purpose flours of decades ago. And my own experience using just all purpose flour for a NY style dough in a home setting was not particularly compelling. But I didn't let that stop me from trying to find a way to use all purpose flour in some way for that style. Those efforts led to the measures I took and the final dough recipe as discussed in Replies 204 and 205 starting at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg15668#msg15668

Peter

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 08, 2016, 09:51:51 PM
thanks for sharing the formula and pics.  that pie looks very nice.  i'm sure using a higher protein flour will fix your only nitpick.  i read your comment on rims on ny pies.  some are thicker, but they are generally small.  good ny pizzas have stronger sauce and cheese flavors than other styles, and imo, the dough when stretched and baked right, the crust simply acts as the textural counterpoint, and take a backseat in flavor to the sauce, cheese, topping and oil, hence no real emphasis on the rim.  there is not as much emphasis on flavor in the dough as in other styles for the same reasons ny hero sandwiches are not made with sourdough breads, but on more neutral and simple well textured italian rolls so that the flavors of the other ingredients are highlighted.

i use a 58% dough with similar %'s for salt, sugar, oil to the andrew belluci formulation.   the old school pizzerias i have spoken to pretty much swear by around 58%.  50lb bag of flour 3.5 gallons of water.

I wasn't crazy about the sauce; the texture was great, I liked it a lot. Gonna try a different route next time on the sauce.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 10:16:31 PM
NY pies from tonight. Used bread flour this time instead of AP.
Same formula except I forgot the oil and I reduced the sugar to 1% which was fine for my oven. I may omit it entirely and try a lean dough at 58% hydration. Same workflow with the food processor, this time with pics. Kneaded by hand for a minute after it came out of the FP and I let it rest for about 20 min on the counter before balling.
24 hr poolish (mix of RT and CT) final dough 5-6 hours in balls

Sauce was a 28 oz can of organic crushed tomatoes with 1 tsp of salt, with 1 clove of garlic microwave extracted in 1 tbsp of olive oil; the clove was then omitted.

Tried to do some splashes of sauce on the pesto pie with the ladle which didn't  work out very well but was tasty!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on September 12, 2016, 10:26:47 PM
Love the look of those pies Ryan! Great job!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 12, 2016, 10:36:24 PM
Love the look of those pies Ryan! Great job!

 ^^^  Top Notch!  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 10:39:06 PM
Love the look of those pies Ryan! Great job!

Thanks Bob! Means a lot coming from you, your pies might be my favorite on this site. If I could get some consistency in getting a nice round pie I would be very satisfied. I'd like to get another wood peel, always have bad luck for some reason with this metal one compared to my 12" wood peel. I'd like to go up to a 16" pie or so anyways and up the slice factor!  :pizza:

^^^  Top Notch!  :chef:

Cheers Jeff! Thank you!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 12, 2016, 10:42:14 PM
BTW - Ryan, that sausage pie has me jonesing to make pizza again.  Lately, I'm seriously having to fight the urge to make pizza more than once a week. :'(
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 10:47:03 PM
BTW - Ryan, that sausage pie has me jonesing to make pizza again.  Lately, I'm seriously having to fight the urge to make pizza more than once a week.   :'(

Are we talking about a business week, or a "week" cause I have a hard time just going 5 days... LOL no joke I used this thread yesterday to check my last post to make sure it was okay to make pizza again...  :-D

The sausage pie went first, 6 minutes. I think this was Lucerne Valley mozzarella or something I found at Albertsons... I hope to get my Saputo back although last time they were out and had "California Gold" which wasn't bad either. Food service product so still better than most retail level mozz.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on September 12, 2016, 10:57:38 PM
Ryan, do you have a standard bake routine now?  Stone in the bottom for most of the bake and then broiler time or just top rack with no broiler?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 12, 2016, 10:58:59 PM
looks great.  i think we should start a standard on pictures for ny pizza, what do you think.  an undercrust shot, a TF shot, a general pie shot, and most importantly, the crucial slice fold test.  i noticed hardly anyone  folds a slice in their pics.  for a ny pizza to be legit, it needs the right kind of crust that is browned, leathery, a bit crispy and folds without cracking.   certain standards should be retained to demonstrate ny pizza as certain traits apply to other styles. (leoparding in neapolitan, cheese on the rim on detroit style, cracking crust in ny elite coal pizza, etc)

besides that, textural and flavor profile descriptions.  sometimes dollar slices look great in pics, but the truth is most taste like sh*t.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 12, 2016, 11:01:37 PM
Are we talking about a business week, or a "week" cause I have a hard time just going 5 days... LOL no joke I used this thread yesterday to check my last post to make sure it was okay to make pizza again...  :-D

The sausage pie went first, 6 minutes. I think this was Lucerne Valley mozzarella or something I found at Albertsons... I hope to get my Saputo back although last time they were out and had "California Gold" which wasn't bad either. Food service product so still better than most retail level mozz.

I try to go the 7 day rule.  It's brutal.  I'm seriously eyeing over my next formula as we speak, but am trying not to bake until Saturday.  (Maybe it'll end up Friday if I cant hold out).  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 11:09:32 PM
Ryan, do you have a standard bake routine now?  Stone in the bottom for most of the bake and then broiler time or just top rack with no broiler?

Sod,

My bake routine depends on the desired bake time. For these 6-7 minute "NY" pies I have the stone on the second to lowest rack and that gets me pretty good color in 6-7 minutes. If the top needs more color I transfer to the top rack for the last minute or so but don't use the broiler, I don't want to go too harsh and a little sugar in the dough gets me color up top. If I had a steel I would probably put it in the top third of the oven to simulate a deck oven. That doesn't work well with my stone though.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 11:31:12 PM
looks great.  i think we should start a standard on pictures for ny pizza, what do you think.  an undercrust shot, a TF shot, a general pie shot, and most importantly, the crucial slice fold test.  i noticed hardly anyone  folds a slice in their pics.  for a ny pizza to be legit, it needs the right kind of crust that is browned, leathery, a bit crispy and folds without cracking.   certain standards should be retained to demonstrate ny pizza as certain traits apply to other styles. (leoparding in neapolitan, cheese on the rim on detroit style, cracking crust in ny elite coal pizza, etc)

besides that, textural and flavor profile descriptions.  sometimes dollar slices look great in pics, but the truth is most taste like sh*t.

Thanks Harry. Maybe people would fold more slices if they made bigger pies, I think that's one of the factors. I think my pies are really missing the slice factor of a larger pizza. Here's the underside. I'm pretty sure it was foldable but I did forget the oil and using a cooling rack will yield a crisper pie than cutting right into like a pizzeria.

I try to go the 7 day rule.  It's brutal.  I'm seriously eyeing over my next formula as we speak, but am trying not to bake until Saturday.  (Maybe it'll end up Friday if I cant hold out).  :-D

Friday is always fair game to make pizza though.  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 12, 2016, 11:44:17 PM
Thanks Harry. Maybe people would fold more slices if they made bigger pies, I think that's one of the factors. I think my pies are really missing the slice factor of a larger pizza. Here's the underside. I'm pretty sure it was foldable but I did forget the oil and using a cooling rack will yield a crisper pie than cutting right into like a pizzeria.

Friday is always fair game to make pizza though.  :chef:

any slice over 14" should be able to be photographed with a fold.  a fold shot would demonstrate texture. 

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 12, 2016, 11:49:31 PM
for a ny pizza to be legit, it needs the right kind of crust that is browned, leathery, a bit crispy and folds without cracking.

This very fact may take me out of the "legit" NY slice realm and I'll be OK with it.  I personally love a slight crackle in my fold.  Leathery isn't something I prefer in my pizza texture.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 12, 2016, 11:53:08 PM
This very fact right may take me out of the "legit" NY slice realm and I'll be OK with it.  I personally love a slight crackle in my fold.  Leathery isn't something I prefer in my pizza texture.

dilution is a function of what someone thinks ny pizza should be like against what it has been.   a NY slice can be crispy, but it must fold and have chew.   if you go down south, and tell folks in memphis that their bbq tastes like NC, they won't be too happy.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 12, 2016, 11:59:42 PM
any slice over 14" should be able to be photographed with a fold.  a fold shot would demonstrate texture.

The texture changes as you change size. An 18" pie will fold easier and have different texture because the slice will be heavier. I'll grab a picture next time, these went fast. A little higher TF would make it more foldable. I really like these .07 pies though, the texture is great. The biggest problem with a 14" .07 pizza is there isn't much there, slices go so fast.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on September 13, 2016, 12:04:13 AM
This very fact right may take me out of the "legit" NY slice realm and I'll be OK with it.  I personally love a slight crackle in my fold.  Leathery isn't something I prefer in my pizza texture.

IMO, a leathery crust is probably the most important defining characteristic of a classic NY slice.  There's no rule that says everyone has to like a NY slice.  I love to mix things up with a crispy reheat slice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 13, 2016, 12:06:34 AM
IMO, a leathery crust is probably the most important defining characteristic of a classic NY slice.  There's no rule that says everyone has to like a NY slice.  I love to mix things up with a crispy reheat slice.

very true.  i enjoy all kinds of pizza.  a reheated ny slice at the shop is it's own wonderful thing.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on September 13, 2016, 12:28:57 AM
May I ask then, if all standards are met except leathery, what would you call that? Because it is not anything else and it is closest to NY.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on September 13, 2016, 12:37:20 AM
Sub- par NY?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on September 13, 2016, 04:47:48 AM
Sub- par NY?

You have just admitted it is still NY style at that point, albeit not up to par.

Just saying there are too many pitfalls when you get into black & white requirements. Ranges work really well. For example a thickness of .06-.08 works much better than "leathery undercrust". Even "non-accentuated rim" gets the idea across better than "big holes". NY style honestly hasn't had a history so long as to warrant strict definition.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on September 13, 2016, 06:16:22 AM
You have just admitted it is still NY style at that point, albeit not up to par.
Just saying there are too many pitfalls when you get into black and white requirements. Ranges work really well. For example a thickness of .06-.08 works much better than leathery undercrust.  Even non-accentuated rim gets the idea across better than "big holes".  NY style honestly hasn't had a history so long as to warrant strict definition.


The way I see it, this conversation has been about how to demonstrate classic NY slice characteristics in photographs. A "leathery crust" is a qualitative attribute that is well demonstrated by a foldable crust.  A specification of 0.06- 0.08 TF is black and white and can include the full range of crust textures.

I don't know if you're old enough to remember just how pervasive the NY slice attributes being discussed were 40 or 50 years ago.  It truly was a heyday and is the primary reason why the term NY slice exists.  The recognizable classic style could be widely found beyond the boroughs as pizza families moved upstate or to NJ or PA.

Unfortunately, pizza has traditionally been a cheap convenience food.  Sit down wood-fired places have created a niche for themselves, but slice/takeout/delivery places are under pressure from the chains and it's taking its toll.  As the quality gets whittled away by economic pressure, consumers are less and less likely to see the value in an alternative to a chain.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on September 13, 2016, 08:00:05 AM
Beautiful Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 13, 2016, 08:47:20 AM
You have just admitted it is still NY style at that point, albeit not up to par.

Just saying there are too many pitfalls when you get into black & white requirements. Ranges work really well. For example a thickness of .06-.08 works much better than "leathery undercrust". Even "non-accentuated rim" gets the idea across better than "big holes". NY style honestly hasn't had a history so long as to warrant strict definition.

NY Pizza has been an iconic food staple for New Yorkers since World War II and does in fact have specific characteristics.  A slice fold test will best reflect texture of a pizza, NY pizza crusts are "leathery" in the sense that they have a distinct thin chewy crust, some crispier than others but they will not crack and the undecrust should not be dried out.  They should fold easily, and the tip should stick and not droop.  Authentic NY pizza is very difficult to find outside the tri-state area and vicinity, and what other places may sell as "NY style" within their own interpretation, that gets imprinted into people's opinion of what that might be.  One can find good NY pizza in other states but they are few and far between.  It comes down to a certain way of doing things, recipes, workflows, that makes a particular preparation a regional thing.  There's also something called NY Bagels.  I have a 2nd home in CA, when I"m there the one thing i really miss are NY bagels.  I have yet to find a good NY bagel in CA.

Here's a video of a pizzeria offering NY pizza in Chicago.  It's really difficult to find a good NY slice in Chicago though it is a huge city.  In this video, they discuss what a NY pizza is.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5TVA1_6n7U
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 13, 2016, 09:12:36 AM
May I ask then, if all standards are met except leathery, what would you call that? Because it is not anything else and it is closest to NY.

A pizza, just not NY pizza.  And NY pizza doesn't hold the title as best pizza, all pizza styles are good in their own way.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 13, 2016, 09:39:11 AM
Deleted...


I just couldn't stand this anymore, but thought better of what I had to say. I'll bet you can guess
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 13, 2016, 09:51:43 AM
Deleted...


I just couldn't stand this anymore, but thought better of what I had to say. I'll bet you can guess

What about discussing it here ? .. i remember these days well! 
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.0
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 13, 2016, 09:56:21 AM
Pretty pies. Is that roasted garlic on the second pie?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: parallei on September 13, 2016, 10:09:46 AM
Love the look of those pies Ryan! Great job!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 13, 2016, 10:36:01 AM
Thanks Hans, Craig, Paul!

Craig,

I did put a tiny clove of roasted garlic in the pesto but not on the pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 14, 2016, 07:33:05 PM
Here's a straight dough I just made for Friday - 57% hydration, 10 seconds in the food processor, bench rest for 45 min, stretch and fold, rest for 15 min, scale & ball. Already starting to get the "micro blisters"
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on September 14, 2016, 11:22:16 PM
Did you put mango in it?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on September 15, 2016, 08:03:33 AM
Look at that man go!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 17, 2016, 01:34:31 AM
Made some pizzas at my cousins again.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 17, 2016, 03:31:48 AM
Thanks Hans, Craig, Paul!

Craig,

I did put a tiny clove of roasted garlic in the pesto but not on the pie.

Sorry, I was referring to the second pie in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43782.msg447742#msg447742
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 17, 2016, 12:22:25 PM
Sorry, I was referring to the second pie in this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43782.msg447742#msg447742

The one with the orange cherry tomatoes, right? That's the one I used a clove of roasted garlic in the pesto. Pesto, mozz, roasted cherry tomatoes, and a really uneven drizzle of tomato sauce lol  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 18, 2016, 01:25:17 AM
Killer pizza... One of my best yet.
100% bread flour
57% water
2% salt
2% sugar
2% evoo
.07 TF

Cheese is California Gold. My source for Saputo seems to have switched. It's good too.

Sauce is Cento crushed with 1 tsp salt, sugar, and evoo. To the sauced skin I applied thin sliced garlic, chopped fresh basil, a few shakes of crushed red pepper flakes, and a pinch of dry oregano.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 18, 2016, 07:37:17 AM
Killer pizza... One of my best yet.
100% bread flour
57% water
2% salt
2% sugar
2% evoo
.07 TF

Cheese is California Gold. My source for Saputo seems to have switched. It's good too.

Sauce is Cento crushed with 1 tsp salt, sugar, and evoo. To the sauced skin I applied thin sliced garlic, chopped fresh basil, a few shakes of crushed red pepper flakes, and a pinch of dry oregano.

As I said on the other thread, this is absolutely stunning. I don't even know where to begin. A few questions if I may.
Pizza size?
How much oil did you add to the Cento Crushed? Did you add anything else that thinned the sauce?
Do you know how much cheese was applied?
Do you have a picture before you baked it?
Bake method and time?

Nice, nice work.  :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 18, 2016, 11:50:19 AM
As I said on the other thread, this is absolutely stunning. I don't even know where to begin. A few questions if I may.
Pizza size?
How much oil did you add to the Cento Crushed? Did you add anything else that thinned the sauce?
Do you know how much cheese was applied?
Do you have a picture before you baked it?
Bake method and time?

Nice, nice work.  :chef:

Thanks so much Matt!!

This was my first 17"
I added a teaspoon of EVOO (California Olive Ranch) to the 28 oz can of Cento Crushed with a teaspoon of salt and teaspoon of sugar. I didn't do anything else to it. I thought about blending it for a second because I've read some people smoothing their crushed tomatoes but I didn't feel like messing with it. I wasn't really expecting to get that killer cheese melt at all. I wish I did know how much cheese, I was going to weigh out 8 oz but when I was halfway into topping the pie I realized I forgot. I really wanted to get a before picture too but I had to rush to get it in the oven because I had a pretty big thin spot a bit off center. My first time stretching to this size and the dough was pretty extensible even at 57% water. I think I will cut the oil back to 1% again.  I baked on the center rack (Ive been baking one level below) at full blast (550+) preheated for 75 min. I also baked longer, 7-8 minutes whereas I've been baking for 5-6 minutes. My oven door doesn't have a window and I don't like to lose too much heat by peeking so I set the timer for 5 minutes and go from there, adding another minute or so if it needs it. I wish I would have grabbed pictures of the bottom, this pie disappeared, after my first bite it was honestly hard to take any pictures... and the birds around me were swarming  ;D

As far as the dough, it went about 24 hours - about 16 in the fridge, 8 at RT.

What this pizza has that my other pies did not, is the slice factor, and I liked it a lot. Ironically, a 17" pizza isn't that filling at .07 TF (or maybe it was just really good)  :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 19, 2016, 08:52:53 PM
Great stuff,  thanks for the details. Interesting to see that a thin pie can handle a fairly thick sauce.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 21, 2016, 01:21:25 AM
Two test pies. 17"
Same formula as the last few bakes, just reduced oil back to 1%. 8 minute bake.
I like the melt I got better last time, this was with 8 oz of California Gold. I'll try 7 oz next time. Parmesan + Asiago.

1. Pepperoni, mushroom, olive
2. sliced garlic, fresh basil, extra virgin olive oil

Tasty pie!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on September 21, 2016, 01:24:13 AM
Geez Ryan.....pro pie for sure!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 21, 2016, 06:50:21 AM
Geez Ryan.....pro pie for sure!!!

I agree - that is a NY slice - nice work Ryan!!!! :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 21, 2016, 07:04:00 AM
Nice Ryan! Cento crushed again? The pie from last bake was on a screen too, right? You've said that 57% stretches thinner easier. What was the higher hydration you are comparing to?

Edit: sorry one more question.  Regarding the previous bake (killer melt), do you remember how long the pizza sat before you took pictures?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: kramer73 on September 21, 2016, 08:27:47 AM
Killer pizza... One of my best yet.
100% bread flour
57% water
2% salt
2% sugar
2% evoo
.07 TF

Cheese is California Gold. My source for Saputo seems to have switched. It's good too.

Sauce is Cento crushed with 1 tsp salt, sugar, and evoo. To the sauced skin I applied thin sliced garlic, chopped fresh basil, a few shakes of crushed red pepper flakes, and a pinch of dry oregano.

Looks really good!!

how much yeast?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 21, 2016, 09:47:17 AM
Thank you Bob, Norm!

Nice Ryan! Cento crushed again? The pie from last bake was on a screen too, right? You've said that 57% stretches thinner easier. What was the higher hydration you are comparing to?

Edit: sorry one more question.  Regarding the previous bake (killer melt), do you remember how long the pizza sat before you took pictures?

Thanks Matt,
Yeah, crushed. I'm comparing to pretty much any hydration. I just think it's easy; but it's probably lack of experience stretching that thin. Craig stretches to .07 at like 66% hydration in his NY thread so it probably doesn't even matter. I've just been running with it since I started using Andrew's formula. I don't feel a need to use more water for these slice type pies, especially using the food processor. I might use a bit more water doing a hand knead though. All of these pictures are right out of the oven, no more than 5 min max I'd say.

I want to talk about the screen - I have a lot of bias that screens = American pizza = bad.
When I saw Harry use a screen I was pretty shocked, because from my understanding that's as far from NY as it gets. A lot of my NY theory is based on posts here from Scott123, Walter, and others. Somebody compared Harry to Scott, but if you read their posts they have quite different theories on NY slice.

There is definitely a difference between a pizza screen and a pizza pan. My experience is mostly with a pan like this.  https://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-AMB-14PP-Classic-Nonstick-Bakeware/dp/B0000D8CAO/?tag=pmak-20

The pan is so thick it takes forever to get any heat transfer. The screen makes a better pie in that it doesn't extend the bake time as much as the thicker pizza pan. The last bake was started on screen too, yes.

https://www.amazon.com/Winware-16-Inch-Seamless-Aluminum-Screen/dp/B001CI6ZI0/?tag=pmak-20

I transferred the pizza to the stone after it set. It would be great to compare side by side the pie started on the screen and a pie started on the stone. My thought is the change in oven spring will effect the texture of the pie. I need a lot more testing to think about this screen, but the one take away was this comment Harry made "when i usually stretch to peel directly to stone, it's a much more natural process.  still, i was very happy with the pizza.  it tasted better than most of the pizza in the city."

If Harry made a better pizza on a screen than most of the pizza in NY, maybe there's hope for me! Really, these pizzas are good. The only thing I can assume between my pizza and every other pizza I've had from a screen is the thickness factor. I don't think I would try this pie any thicker than .07 on a screen. I don't think it would bake right.

Looks really good!!

how much yeast?

Thanks Kramer, .3% instant dry yeast. About 24 hours 75% in the fridge 25% at room temp.

Flour (100%): 555.07 g  |  19.58 oz | 1.22 lbs
Water (57%): 316.39 g  |  11.16 oz | 0.7 lbs
IDY (.3%): 1.67 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (2%): 11.1 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.31 tsp | 0.77 tbsp
Oil (1%): 5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Sugar (2%): 11.1 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.78 tsp | 0.93 tbsp
Total (162.3%):   900.88 g | 31.78 oz | 1.99 lbs | TF = 0.07
Single Ball:   450.44 g | 15.89 oz | 0.99 lbs
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 26, 2016, 01:24:23 AM
Testing more pizza. 17" 18 oz dough ball.

Cheese pie had California Gold mozzarella and some Bel Fiore fresh mozz. Sartrori Sarvecchio Parmesan.
I tried baking on the 2nd to top rack. I might try the floor next time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 26, 2016, 06:26:28 AM
Testing more pizza. 17" 18 oz dough ball.

Cheese pie had California Gold mozzarella and some Bel Fiore fresh mozz. Sartrori Sarvecchio Parmesan.
I tried baking on the 2nd to top rack. I might try the floor next time.

Nicely done. I admire your shaping skills - the thin rim gives it a great look. The 17" pie seems to help get the right proportions.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on September 26, 2016, 08:55:14 AM
Nicely done. I admire your shaping skills - the thin rim gives it a great look. The 17" pie seems to help get the right proportions.
^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 26, 2016, 11:09:54 AM
Ryan, nice looking NY slices from a west coast guy!  ;) :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 26, 2016, 01:21:13 PM
Thanks Matt, Hans, Jeff!

I've had a lot of family in for the summer and have been able to make a lot of pies. Once everybody leaves I'll probably slow down a bit. Maintenance is supposed to replace my oven today... the first thing I'm doing is measuring to see if an 18" will fit!  ::)

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 26, 2016, 08:06:17 PM


I want to talk about the screen - I have a lot of bias that screens = American pizza = bad.
When I saw Harry use a screen I was pretty shocked, because from my understanding that's as far from NY as it gets. A lot of my NY theory is based on posts here from Scott123, Walter, and others. Somebody compared Harry to Scott, but if you read their posts they have quite different theories on NY slice.


just to clarify, i don't associate the use of a screen to traditional ny pizza.  as stated in my thread, i used a screen to attempt to make an 18" pie in a home oven with a smaller stone.
that said, i was surprised at how well a screen over a stone turned out within a *home oven* environment.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 26, 2016, 08:26:32 PM
I understand. I don't think it represents traditional New York either. It's cool to make a big pie at home though. I've been using it every bake since I got it. Maybe I will get bored of it but I like the slice factor of a big pie. And leftovers  :)

It works better than other pizza pans I have used. The other ones must be too thick. I'm not sure what part of the oven works best for it though. Still trying to figure that out.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 26, 2016, 08:39:46 PM
I understand. I don't think it represents traditional New York either. It's cool to make a big pie at home though. I've been using it every bake since I got it. Maybe I will get bored of it but I like the slice factor of a big pie. And leftovers  :)

It works better than other pizza pans I have used. The other ones must be too thick. I'm not sure what part of the oven works best for it though. Still trying to figure that out.

well a screen is different from a pan, because dough on screen on a stone is getting direct radiant heat from the stone.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 26, 2016, 09:03:36 PM
Perforated pan.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 26, 2016, 10:46:01 PM
Perforated pan.

that's completely different from a screen.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 26, 2016, 11:02:12 PM
that's completely different from a screen.

I said the screen works better than my perforated pizza pan. Not that they are the same thing.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on September 27, 2016, 05:17:25 AM
I said the screen works better than my perforated pizza pan. Not that they are the same thing.

surprised you even tried to use a pizza pan in search of making a ny pizza.  what was your motivation for doing such?


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 27, 2016, 10:57:10 AM
surprised you even tried to use a pizza pan in search of making a ny pizza.  what was your motivation for doing such?

Well Harry, once upon a time I only had a pizza pan. Made a few pies, got a stone, questioned my faith, and retired it.



 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 27, 2016, 07:19:50 PM
One for my friend.
Same dough as the other day, had an extra dough ball in the fridge.
Tossed a container of cherry tomatoes into a hot pan with a little olive oil for 5 min. Puréed and salted. After saucing I grated Sartori Sarvecchio Parmesan on with the largest hole on my box grater. Half a container (4 oz ish) of Bel Fiore fresh mozzarella, sea salt, cracked black pepper, extra virgin olive oil, and pepperoni on half. Baked for about 8 minutes. Minced fresh basil post bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 27, 2016, 07:27:32 PM
Looks great Ryan, I have not tried that much Parmesan on a pie, what did you think about it?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 27, 2016, 07:52:00 PM
Me either! I was thinking of the Pizza Town video.  It was good - This pie was pretty slim on cheese so I think it helped fill in the blanks. This American stuff is not super strong like the parmigiano reggiano I was using. I should have pureed the sauce a little smoother though, it thinned a bit too much during the bake in some spots, especially with the lack of a cheese barrier. The lightly cooked cherry tomato sauce tasted fresher then canned tomato even though it still got cooked twice. Had a nice tang to it. I might try mixing with a can of whole peeled. I think that could be good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on September 27, 2016, 07:58:19 PM
Nice thin pie Ryan! :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 28, 2016, 12:52:43 AM
Thanks Jeff, I feel like I'm starting to hone in on some things with this dough. I'm going to try and experiment more with my sauce and give it more attention. Still looking for "something."
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 29, 2016, 11:28:25 PM
17" 18 oz dough ball
50:50 Bread Flour / All Purpose
57% water
2% salt
2% sugar
1% oil
.12% IDY

Same day room temp test.

7 oz California Gold mozzarella
1 can Di Napoli tomatoes, half simmered with a clove of garlic to a til thick, the other half uncooked, then blended to consistency. I used the whole can on this pizza,  Topped with Sartori Sarvecchio and organic Greek oregano.

Baked for 10 min @ 550

Really good pie, first bake in the new oven - had to test it. Nice to have a window, should make my pizza better now that I can make observations about the bake. This was with stone on the lowest rack. Next I'll try going up a tier and pulling the screen sooner to cut the bake time a little.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 30, 2016, 07:06:37 AM
Another beauty, so consistent!  Congrats on a successful first bake in the new oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 30, 2016, 08:02:03 AM
Nice pie and congrats on the new oven!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on September 30, 2016, 08:03:47 AM
Nice pie and congrats on the new oven!

^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: zaafreak on September 30, 2016, 08:49:52 AM
That's a sexy cheese boil!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 30, 2016, 11:18:32 AM
Thanks all. , This was a really good slice but the bones didn't have the flavor I like of a longer fermented dough. It rose about 8 hours. Maybe same day dough needs more salt. I really want to try malt because I've yet to be super impressed with any dough under 18 hours. At least 12. With as much as I've been baking I should bring the old dough back.

The apartment replaced my old oven, some expected tradeoffs. I was thinking the new one would only go to 500. I knew it wouldn't get as hot as my last one which went over 600 but at least it goes to 550. I might be able to fit an 18" in here. Still has the rack ears at the end that keep you from putting a stone bigger than 16" in there though. The 17" screen doesn't fit either without sitting on the stone or something to lift it 1/2" or it will sit crooked. Bake time was maybe a little long, I'll move the stone higher and pull the screen sooner. All my tests for oven position I've been working on pretty hard the last 2 or 3 weeks don't mean anything now lol.  :-D

Thanks Zaafreak, I'm starting to get pretty convinced the melt is closely related to the quality of cheese. I get a better melt with less cheese with certain mozzarella. I like this California Gold quite well but I'll be getting Saputo Gold back, talked to the worker at the market I get it from and he's gonna order more.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 30, 2016, 11:53:50 AM
If it is a new oven chances are you can bump up the temp 30-35 degrees by adjusting the offset. Every oven I have tried it on for the last 10 years has let me program in a temp adjustment.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 30, 2016, 02:01:30 PM
Thanks Norm, I'll see what I can find.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 30, 2016, 03:37:49 PM
Norm...Well, I just learned something..I had no idea! The only concern I'd have is that I'd never remember to set it back and everything I  cook or bake would be off....except pizza! If I could figure out a labeling system, I could get mid to high 600 bakes on my steel..maybe approaching 700? Thanks for this (by the way, I have a basic Kenmore gas oven..
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on September 30, 2016, 04:35:23 PM
We just leave ours with the offset set to plus 35 degrees - it is easy to compensate it if we are not cooking pizza - if I want to cook at 350 I just set the oven to 315 degrees. But if I did want to set it back it would only take 30 seconds.

If your oven is digital it will be easy, if not the adjustment is still possible but not as easy (or precise) - the older style ovens usually had a set screw inside the knob (visible inside the shaft of the knob)...

If your know your ovens model number it is easy to look up the procedure - it is not always the same procedure (on every oven) it just takes the right combo of buttons to put the oven into adjustment mode...
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 30, 2016, 05:48:19 PM
It's an apartment. The new oven is probably as old as a new oven can be lol. Not digital.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 01, 2016, 01:19:21 PM
Ryan, those are some nice pies. Your same day new oven test loaded with lots of tomatoes is very impressive. One thing I really like on same day doughs is the outer rims usually do not look anemic. I wish I couldget an outer rim to look like your same-day effort.

If you had to guess, what was the weight of the tomatoes that made it to the pie? It looks like it was very nice.

Roy
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 01, 2016, 02:28:08 PM
Ryan, those are some nice pies. Your same day new oven test loaded with lots of tomatoes is very impressive. One thing I really like on same day doughs is the outer rims usually do not look anemic. I wish I couldget an outer rim to look like your same-day effort.

If you had to guess, what was the weight of the tomatoes that made it to the pie? It looks like it was very nice.

Roy

Thanks Roy, I set aside about half of the whole tomatoes and simmered the rest with all the juice. 28 oz can, lots of juice in whole peeled, 50-60% of the tomatoes cooked down probably ended up with 7 or 8 oz.

Sauce and parm/oregano in the middle of the pie and spread like Norma's video of Frank Giaquinto.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 01, 2016, 04:18:30 PM
Did cooking down the juiced change the flavor of the sauce dramatically? I'm always afraid to cook my pizza sauce in any way - the thought of something that tastes like spaghetti sauce on my pie horrifies me - it just seems so wrong  :-X - even though it would probably taste fine.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 01, 2016, 04:37:33 PM
Did cooking down the juiced change the flavor of the sauce dramatically? I'm always afraid to cook my pizza sauce in any way - the thought of something that tastes like spaghetti sauce on my pie horrifies me - it just seems so wrong  :-X - even though it would probably taste fine.

It makes the sauce a bit richer by concentrating the tomato flavor and bumping up the savoriness - I wanted to try concentrating myself instead of using a paste product. I would say it doesn't really cross into spaghetti sauce territory just because the cooking process is pretty different. No oil, herbs or anything. You can see the color is still pretty bright by reserving half the tomatoes it has a different taste, maybe it helps the sweet & sour balance of the sauce. I need to do more tests... of course  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 01, 2016, 04:47:56 PM
Thanks, yes I did notice the nice color - not at all like a long cooked sauce - BTW, what made you decide to not just cook down the juice?

I have two balls on deck for the mixer - I think forgot to tell you -- I have been using the refined coconut oil and I think the solid component of the oil helps with the final texture of the curst - Like adding butter but without having the butter flavor surface in the finished crust.

Just like you, I have more testing to do - I get little bits of the oil in specks throughout the dough but they vanish during the final mixing. Do you heat / melt the coconut oil before you add it?
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 01, 2016, 05:07:23 PM
Thanks, yes I did notice the nice color - not at all like a long cooked sauce - BTW, what made you decide to not just cook down the juice?

I have two balls on deck for the mixer - I think forgot to tell you -- I have been using the refined coconut oil and I think the solid component of the oil helps with the final texture of the curst - Like adding butter but without having the butter flavor surface in the finished crust.

Just like you, I have more testing to do - I get little bits of the oil in specks throughout the dough but they vanish during the final mixing. Do you heat / melt the coconut oil before you add it?

I've done that a few times, just the juice but it's not the same as concentrating the the actual tomato bits. There's more umami in the tomato. I was trying to approximate something like an extra heavy "pizza sauce" a pie shop might use. Even Norma uses Saporito and thins it with water. The reserved tomato thins it and adds freshness back in without using water. Not sure I'll do it every time, made a tasty slice though. It's kind of a waste of time when it's cheaper to buy the actual #10 can though, but it's fun to mess around.

I melt the coconut oil if it's solidified. It's pretty warm in California lately so it's been pourable. I just got more SunCoco, It's a coconut/sunflower blend that stays liquid and is good for higher heat. It's really versatile. It works as a 1:1 substitute for butter too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 01, 2016, 05:21:40 PM
Funny I just picked up two #10 cans when I was at RD - I think I'm going to use one of them soon and try freezing the leftovers - the #10 cans do end up being cheaper but I never know what to do with all the sauce. There is enough in a #10 can to make about a million pies  :P

The two I just bagged are intended for the big cheese test - 50/50 Gouda Mozzarella mix on half the pie and a 50/50 Edammer (aka Babybel) and Mozzarella on the other half.....
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 01, 2016, 05:33:36 PM
I got a few of them. I'm tired of spending more money for a 28 oz can. Its ridiculous. I don't know what to do with all the extra either, I figure I'll make pizza, pasta, a batch of salsa, spanish rice, etc and freeze whats left. We eat a ton of tomatoes, I might be able to actually get through a can in a week.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 03, 2016, 03:26:33 PM
Hey Norm and others..just tried the oven offset +35F thing...1/4 ins teel in my usual position, 6-8 iches down from top, IR reading from center of stee. Ordinarily I bake at 550 (ovem max) , use broil for 10 mins prebake to boost steel temp. I can get around 640-650....With the boost of 35 degrees, the steel took longer to prreheat and even with broiler, got no hotter than without offset. Only the kitchen got hotter. ???


Am I doing something wrong or is it just heating the air inside oven without noticeable impact on the surface.? My dream of home oven bake at 700 is fading (maybe on the very top rack, but that's hard to work with)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 03, 2016, 03:38:51 PM
Does the +35F calibration affect what happens when the broiler is on? Perhaps turning on broiler with a hotter oven made it think that it needed to get rid of excess heat through the exhaust vent. (hotter kitchen...)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 03, 2016, 03:45:44 PM
Hi Bill, are you sure you adjusted in the right direction - I had an oven a few years back did not work as I expected -- I realized I was adjusting the wrong way - I determined this by testing (in both directions) and looking at a thermometer in the oven - only then did I realized I had adjusted in the wrong direction initially (the wording in the manual for that oven was poorly written). If you adjust it up 35 degrees everything should get hotter (unless using your broiler is somehow causing an issue - I don't use the broiler so I'm not sure if that would / could make any difference).

Are you trying to get more initial oven spring or a quicker bake (or both)?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 04, 2016, 02:44:12 PM
Why would a dough launched direct to stone get more top browning than one started on screen?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 04, 2016, 02:58:03 PM
If you slid it in upside down  ???
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2016, 03:05:33 PM
Why would a dough launched direct to stone get more top browning than one started on screen?
Ryan,

Assuming that the two pizzas are essentially identical, it is possible that the pizza on the screen bakes more slowly because the pizza cannot start to bake until the screen is heated to the temperature to allow the pizza to start to bake. By contrast, the pizza on the stone starts to bake immediately upon hitting the heated stone and the top heat, along with the heat passing through the pizza from below, does the rest of the job, but more quickly than the pizza on the screen.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 04, 2016, 04:24:05 PM
Thanks Peter,
That tomato pie was my first stone bake since I started experimenting with the screen launched 17"s. I was surprised to see that much more top color. Still trying to find the right oven position with the screen.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: PizzaManic on October 05, 2016, 05:56:41 AM
I remember seeing a video of a Neapolitan style pie baked in an Electric oven on a screen - the screen is left permanently in the oven and the pie is launched directly on top of it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 05, 2016, 09:24:29 AM
I remember seeing a video of a Neapolitan style pie baked in an Electric oven on a screen - the screen is left permanently in the oven and the pie is launched directly on top of it.

Turbo chef Fire?
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 05, 2016, 11:11:21 PM
Testing the top rack.  Very different from the old oven.
500
310
13
1/4t IDY

Rose at ambient temp for about 10 hours. Really flavorful dough, haven't done this much salt in the dough for a while but it had a very nice flavor. All 3 test pies were lacking in bottom color though; the top rack was a bit disappointing of a test. This oven is definitely a candidate for steel.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 06, 2016, 06:27:31 AM
the sauce looks nice - are you still using up the #10 can of 7/11
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 06, 2016, 11:17:54 AM
Nice looking again, Ryan. New oven, too. Tough odds.  :chef:

What's the cheese you used? Was that a Bufala Mozz or something?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 06, 2016, 11:22:47 AM
I finished the can last night - this time I blended it for a few seconds and added a little water to thin the consistency. 
I brushed a layer of basil/olive oil spread on the pie (blitz in the food processor) and the 7/11 just had a little salt added.

I drained and salted the ciliegine mozzarella balls and left them in a strainer (in a bowl) in the refrigerator for a few hours. That helped the flavor quite a bit for the fresh mozz, but I didn't get a great melt on it.

This is just an observation, but the longer the tomato sauce sits in the fridge, it gets somewhat closer to a cooked sauce in the way the acidity/zest round off. I could see a pizzeria being able to save sauce and mix in more fresh cans the next day to add brightness and being less noticeable. After a few days in the fridge I thought the 7/11's still had more flavor than some other canned tomatoes however.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 06, 2016, 11:37:28 AM
This is just an observation, but the longer the tomato sauce sits in the fridge, it gets somewhat closer to a cooked sauce in the way the acidity/zest round off.
I agree. I like a minimum of 2 hours of fridge time. Mine are good for a few days. Maybe 4. I add a couple things on the morning of a bake to the portion I take out for that day's pie. Granulated garlic seems to be the biggest difference when done same day. Fresher when done just a couple hours prior to bake. But that, o course, is just my take in my kitchen. :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 06, 2016, 11:39:23 AM
Nice looking again, Ryan. New oven, too. Tough odds.  :chef:

What's the cheese you used? Was that a Bufala Mozz or something?

Roy


In my last oven, I was able to get a 75 second bake. My fastest pie yesterday (not posted) took around 4x the time. I like a 4 minute pie but it wasn't an even bake. Bottom color was really lacking, which surprised me after blasting the stone for 5 minutes via broiler before launching. Even this pie which baked for twice as long 7-8 min was lacking bottom color. I'm going to have to consider a Roccbox if I have any interest in pursuing this style further at this point, as this oven is not capable.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 06, 2016, 11:54:25 AM

In my last oven, I was able to get a 75 second bake. My fastest pie yesterday (not posted) took around 4x the time. I like a 4 minute pie but it wasn't an even bake. Bottom color was really lacking, which surprised me after blasting the stone for 5 minutes via broiler before launching. Even this pie which baked for twice as long 7-8 min was lacking bottom color. I'm going to have to consider a Roccbox if I have any interest in pursuing this style further at this point, as this oven is not capable.
I'm behind times. I had not heard of those Roccbox ovens yet. Just googled. Looks nifty. I'll have to look through the videos after lunch.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 07, 2016, 09:26:46 AM
I'm behind times. I had not heard of those Roccbox ovens yet. Just googled. Looks nifty. I'll have to look through the videos after lunch.

Some members are already achieving promising results, it looks like a fun little oven.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44527.0
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 08, 2016, 02:40:42 AM
Slice test
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 08, 2016, 08:49:40 AM
I'd have to say that it is a great big success.  :chef:

Any idea on cheese weight?


Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on October 08, 2016, 09:44:20 AM
Looks terrific Ryan! I almost always use sliced mozz......
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on October 08, 2016, 10:22:41 AM
 Looks great.  Can I have extra cheese?  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on October 08, 2016, 10:35:45 AM
Ryan do you have a deli slicer?  Those slices look very uniform.

I'd love to get one, but you have to be careful as cheese can be a challenge for most of the less expensive models.

Looks like you've got that NY slice crumb down!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 08, 2016, 11:25:43 AM
Thanks all for the kind words!

Roy the cheese weight was 7 ounces - I didn't measure beforehand this time as I wanted to see where I would land just eyeballing it, which turned out to be right where I've been hovering; 7-8 oz. I knocked 2 minutes off my bake time and got real solid color with this new baking setup I tried. Somewhat inspired by Scott123's false ceiling posts. I'm not sure if the design is right, but it appeared to work...  :-D I really need an IR gun to know for sure what's going on!

Bob which mozz do you typically use? This is California Gold but the market I get it from is ordering more Saputo Gold for me.

Thanks jkb! I'm still very much experimenting with the cheese and sauce amounts.  :pizza: Do you like cheese to the edge or a sauce rim? 

Jeff, I don't have a slicer, but I get my cheese at a little Mexican market and they sliced it for me yesterday.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on October 08, 2016, 04:43:30 PM
Ryan...... Up until about 3 months ago I was using Frigo WMM which is a Saputo product. Since then I've been using fresh mozz made fresh each day in the deli of one of our local markets.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 08, 2016, 05:25:32 PM
Thanks all for the kind words!

Roy the cheese weight was 7 ounces - I didn't measure beforehand this time as I wanted to see where I would land just eyeballing it, which turned out to be right where I've been hovering; 7-8 oz. I knocked 2 minutes off my bake time and got real solid color with this new baking setup I tried. Somewhat inspired by Scott123's false ceiling posts. I'm not sure if the design is right, but it appeared to work...  :-D I really need an IR gun to know for sure what's going on!

I was wondering when I saw the two bake surfaces if you were doing the ceiling thing or if you were switching stones half way through. I've had good results either way in the past. A difficult head/neck angle for me right now, but will do again. I had really impressive results one time on a cast iron pan under a stone. Fun to play with things. :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 08, 2016, 06:51:55 PM
I was wondering when I saw the two bake surfaces if you were doing the ceiling thing or if you were switching stones half way through. I've had good results either way in the past. A difficult head/neck angle for me right now, but will do again. I had really impressive results one time on a cast iron pan under a stone. Fun to play with things. :)

It's an inverted 21x15" Nordicware Big Sheet (seasoned) with a reflective cookie sheet (----) inside.

  ______
 /--------\
__stone__

I'd like to see if I can get back to a 4 minute pie in this oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on October 08, 2016, 06:54:17 PM

Thanks jkb! I'm still very much experimenting with the cheese and sauce amounts.  :pizza: Do you like cheese to the edge or a sauce rim? 


I like cheese to the rim and my son is more likely to eat the crust with more cheese.  I like 1.2g of cheese/ sq in..  My son likes 2. :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 09, 2016, 10:25:04 PM
It's an inverted 21x15" Nordicware Big Sheet (seasoned) with a reflective cookie sheet (----) inside.

  ______
 /--------\
__stone__

I'd like to see if I can get back to a 4 minute pie in this oven.
I'm not quite sure how to formulate the next question without first asking if your oven has a top element that comes on when baking?

Anyhow, I tried a similar concept a couple racks above my stone today. However, my top element does come on. What I don't know is if this element comes on and provides more heat or less heat(reflective) than the two shelf system thing does. My bake today was not a whole lot different than normal. I thought I had done a better effort one time before on something similar. I'll have to try again.

I didn't save any bake time, but the pie did come out quite like most do at nearly 7-minutes at 550F. Maybe the cheese texture was better than normal? Pretty good pie, regardless. No pics of any of this weekend's inside bakes.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 09, 2016, 11:42:09 PM
I'm not quite sure how to formulate the next question without first asking if your oven has a top element that comes on when baking?

Anyhow, I tried a similar concept a couple racks above my stone today. However, my top element does come on. What I don't know is if this element comes on and provides more heat or less heat(reflective) than the two shelf system thing does. My bake today was not a whole lot different than normal. I thought I had done a better effort one time before on something similar. I'll have to try again.

I didn't save any bake time, but the pie did come out quite like most do at nearly 7-minutes at 550F. Maybe the cheese texture was better than normal? Pretty good pie, regardless. No pics of any of this weekend's inside bakes.

Roy

Roy, is your stone on the lowest rack? I have a broiler up top but the broiler can sometimes be too intense. My old oven didn't have a window so it was harder to know when to turn the broiler on and off when using it. I'm gonna mess with the broiler and the lowest rack next test to see what I can get.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2016, 06:52:31 AM
Roy, is your stone on the lowest rack? I have a broiler up top but the broiler can sometimes be too intense. My old oven didn't have a window so it was harder to know when to turn the broiler on and off when using it. I'm gonna mess with the broiler and the lowest rack next test to see what I can get.
It's on the lowest regular rack slot. The lower element does the lion's share of the oven's heat. The top does some, but not a lot. I guess some ovens are the opposite here. My bottoms are great if I use the lowest rack spot.

There is another sort of slot where the rack can go. Right above the element, maybe 2 inches. It doesn't have the ridge in it to prohibit pulling the rack out too much. It's actually too much bottom, but works great when I'm doing 3+ pies. Nice stone temp recovery. It's rare I do that, though.

I'm kicking myself in the butt right now. there are a couple ovens in Lowes that have the split bake areas. The lower area is fairly  large and the upper one is much smaller. In two of the ovens, that upper chamber has elements on bottom and top and both come up for bakes. something like 8-ish inches space top to bottom. Anyhow, I ended up paying over $300 for my crappy oven fix because two parts went out. I could have paid for 1/3rd of the price of one of the oven with that. doh!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 10, 2016, 09:29:42 AM
It's on the lowest regular rack slot. The lower element does the lion's share of the oven's heat. The top does some, but not a lot. I guess some ovens are the opposite here. My bottoms are great if I use the lowest rack spot.

There is another sort of slot where the rack can go. Right above the element, maybe 2 inches. It doesn't have the ridge in it to prohibit pulling the rack out too much. It's actually too much bottom, but works great when I'm doing 3+ pies. Nice stone temp recovery. It's rare I do that, though.

I'm kicking myself in the butt right now. there are a couple ovens in Lowes that have the split bake areas. The lower area is fairly  large and the upper one is much smaller. In two of the ovens, that upper chamber has elements on bottom and top and both come up for bakes. something like 8-ish inches space top to bottom. Anyhow, I ended up paying over $300 for my crappy oven fix because two parts went out. I could have paid for 1/3rd of the price of one of the oven with that. doh!!!

My cousins GE gas oven has a slot like that, right above the burner but below the main set of rack tiers. The pizza in the first post in this thread was made in that oven, that pie had a really nice undercrust and the convection provided solid top browning even at the lowest point in the oven. I expected there to be some learning curve and testing needed, but I find it really easy to get a great pizza out of that oven, easier than mine for sure.

Those split bake ovens seem pretty nice, especially if it didn't heat the house up so much. I never really see them mentioned on here though even though they do appear closest to a deck oven for the home user - especially if it gets to 550.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2016, 11:09:34 AM
My cousins GE gas oven has a slot like that, right above the burner but below the main set of rack tiers. The pizza in the first post in this thread was made in that oven, that pie had a really nice undercrust and the convection provided solid top browning even at the lowest point in the oven. I expected there to be some learning curve and testing needed, but I find it really easy to get a great pizza out of that oven, easier than mine for sure.

Those split bake ovens seem pretty nice, especially if it didn't heat the house up so much. I never really see them mentioned on here though even though they do appear closest to a deck oven for the home user - especially if it gets to 550.
I thought I would have seen some mention of them as well. Next time this thing hiccups....

I have a bad habit of sort of going backwards in threads sometimes. I'll go back the the beginning. I've seen at least one pie you've done in that oven, IIRC. Sounds like a nice setup. It'd be nice to see how a few folks around here have done with electric versions.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 10, 2016, 11:43:10 AM
It seems like it would make a great pie so long as they are deep enough. I'm really hooked on big slices lately.

I used to be able to run the broiler the full bake with the stone in the lowest rack, and that got me a 3:30-4 minute pie, CaptBob territory. I haven't tried this yet in this oven but I have a batch of CaptBob style dough in the fridge to test it out.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 10, 2016, 11:57:45 AM
I posted this slice in the Post A Pic thread but I wanted to talk about it a little. I used 3% sugar, 3% oil and got that excellent color in the undercrust like you always get, Roy. This was a really good pie and the reason I mention it is it was a 4 hour (RT) dough! I generally like a dough with at least 12 hours of fermentation; but all tasters agreed this pie was better than the 24 hour (CF) dough the day before. The only thing I did different was add .5% lactic acid powder. I'm not sure if it helped as I was just winging it; I'm gonna try LDM soon.

It had a great eggshell to the rim, the crumb is standard NY, fairly tight, but the texture was excellent. Slight crispness outside giving way to the chewy crumb. No cracks when folded, yet the bottom had a crispness to it as well. I used Pomi tomato sauce and deli sliced California Gold. The manager of the Mexican market I get my mozzarella from ordered more Saputo Gold for me and it will be in this week so plenty of tests coming! I have as much fan making and testing pizzas as eating them, hope I'm not boring anyone to death too bad with all my constant trial.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2016, 01:13:56 PM
Man, that is soooo good looking. Very nice. I just did a tomato sauce test heating thing for bake use tomorrow and maybe Thursday. The smell is strong in the house. That smell when I look at this picture is like smell-a-vision. I'm suffering. I need a bake. Been hours....must get through this day. I'm fading.......

Anyhow, enough of me being weird. What flour did you use for this? I've been looking at doing some of Peter's food processor batches and doing a variety of short and long term fermentations. Sugar(s) is a big part of what I want to look at.

(btw, I just made placed Amazon order you'd be proud of. Two 12-packs of crushed. One Jersey Fresh and one Sclafani.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41006.msg409434#msg409434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41006.msg409434#msg409434)   )
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 10, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
Man, that is soooo good looking. Very nice. I just did a tomato sauce test heating thing for bake use tomorrow and maybe Thursday. The smell is strong in the house. That smell when I look at this picture is like smell-a-vision. I'm suffering. I need a bake. Been hours....must get through this day. I'm fading.......

Anyhow, enough of me being weird. What flour did you use for this? I've been looking at doing some of Peter's food processor batches and doing a variety of short and long term fermentations. Sugar(s) is a big part of what I want to look at.

(btw, I just made placed Amazon order you'd be proud of. Two 12-packs of crushed. One Jersey Fresh and one Sclafani.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41006.msg409434#msg409434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41006.msg409434#msg409434)   )

Thanks Roy! I hope you post your findings from the sauce test. This was GM Bread Flour with 3% VWG. Since I started using the food processor I've made all of my doughs except maybe one with it. I love it.

Pizza supplies! Love it; I was looking on Amazon at the Jersey Fresh the other day, I haven't tried those or Sclafani but would really like to. I'm going to be placing an order for some pie gear soon here too. I need a new cutting wheel, tired of performing the Texas Pizza Massacre every time I dig into a slice.  :-D

Been using Pomi the last two bakes. The sauce consistency is really nice for pizza. The packaging and resealable cap make it handy for saving the rest for another bake. The 17oz package gives me enough sauce for two 17" pies.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2016, 06:07:43 PM
Thanks Roy! I hope you post your findings from the sauce test. This was GM Bread Flour with 3% VWG. Since I started using the food processor I've made all of my doughs except maybe one with it. I love it.

Pizza supplies! Love it; I was looking on Amazon at the Jersey Fresh the other day, I haven't tried those or Sclafani but would really like to. I'm going to be placing an order for some pie gear soon here too. I need a new cutting wheel, tired of performing the Texas Pizza Massacre every time I dig into a slice.  :-D

Been using Pomi the last two bakes. The sauce consistency is really nice for pizza. The packaging and resealable cap make it handy for saving the rest for another bake. The 17oz package gives me enough sauce for two 17" pies.
The Pomi might be the best thin tomatoes at my local grocery. I got two bland batches of Mutti's in a row, so time to try other things. I've seen a lot of people here dig both my choices I ordered, so pretty safe bet I can at least make pasta sauce from them. I think that was Norm's post. I'll post results on my thread.

3% VWG. It's been so long since I tried any. Gave it up for fully leaded All Trumps and Full Strength. I was so green the last time I tried it. Had no idea if it helped or not.  :-[

Thanks for letting me know which flour you used. I can see that. I fell a little short when I tried it last Winter, but I used my made for All Trumps formulation and method.

I wanted to get a really good feel for what the dough should feel like with a mixer before trying other things out. I think I'm ready to try the food processor out. Liking the idea of small batches. The KA mixer isn't so hot at 2 and under batches.

My son got me a Rocker cutter two seasons ago for Christmas. Love it. Would make an effective weapon.

Man, that sure is a nice looking slice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 10, 2016, 11:15:53 PM
The Pomi might be the best thin tomatoes at my local grocery. I got two bland batches of Mutti's in a row, so time to try other things. I've seen a lot of people here dig both my choices I ordered, so pretty safe bet I can at least make pasta sauce from them. I think that was Norm's post. I'll post results on my thread.

3% VWG. It's been so long since I tried any. Gave it up for fully leaded All Trumps and Full Strength. I was so green the last time I tried it. Had no idea if it helped or not.  :-[

Thanks for letting me know which flour you used. I can see that. I fell a little short when I tried it last Winter, but I used my made for All Trumps formulation and method.

I wanted to get a really good feel for what the dough should feel like with a mixer before trying other things out. I think I'm ready to try the food processor out. Liking the idea of small batches. The KA mixer isn't so hot at 2 and under batches.

My son got me a Rocker cutter two seasons ago for Christmas. Love it. Would make an effective weapon.

Man, that sure is a nice looking slice.

I picked up a case of the Mutti's when Fresh & Easy closed around here. They were great but I haven't used them for some time. Strange because their tomato paste is pretty easy to find. The last few Carmelina's I bought I thought were bad. The last Cento crushed wasn't that good. The last DiNapoli whole peeled was very good. Also had good luck with Muir Glen whole peeled.

I might order some All Trumps from NYbakers to try. I did everything by hand before the food processor, but its so fast and easy, it's great.
Again thanks Roy, I've learned a lot from your thread. You get that perfect caramel undercrust every time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 11, 2016, 07:29:56 AM
You might already know this but (If I'm remembering the right name) NYBakers is in San Diego with you - when I lived there I would order and arrange a time with him and just drive over and pick it up. A bit hard to find (down a back alley) but worth the effort since you don't have to pay shipping and he is a really nice guy...
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 11, 2016, 10:49:11 AM
Thanks so much Norm, that's exactly where I was thinking of going; but since Mike (essen1) posted yesterday that La Romanella is a General Mills product, I'll probably pick up another bag of their high gluten @ 25 lbs for $7 versus 5 lbs for $7.

Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 16, 2016, 08:29:43 PM
Found a trick for larger grates, slice off a piece of mozzarella from the block the width of the shred you want, and grate with the slicing side of a box grater. Also, if you want more stretch, try cutting in some Oaxaca.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on October 16, 2016, 08:49:54 PM
So what's your favorite form factor for cheese now or do you change it up?  Slice, cube, shred??  I was reading earlier in the Great Chicage Style Pizza Cookbook that grating prevents the cheese from becoming too stringy when it melts.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 16, 2016, 09:25:21 PM
So what's your favorite form factor for cheese now or do you change it up?  Slice, cube, shred??  I was reading earlier in the Great Chicage Style Pizza Cookbook that grating prevents the cheese from becoming too stringy when it melts.

I might try cubed next, for some reason I like slices but more on smaller pies. On bigger pies it feels like theres more gaps to fill in. I'm still experimenting.  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 18, 2016, 04:02:35 PM
3 hour RT sponge, hand mixed, cold fermented over night (15 hours)

Skin brushed with MAE garlic oil, Greek oregano sprinkled on, might add a little red chile flake next time just for good luck; 1.3 oz Sartori Bellavitano Gold (Parmesan/cheddar hybrid), 5.3 oz Saputo Gold, one drained can of Carmelina chopped tomatoes, salt and pepper into the oven for 8 or 9 minutes on this one.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 18, 2016, 04:15:31 PM
Nice, Ryan! That looks really good. I've never done one like that. Might have to soon.  8)


Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 18, 2016, 04:42:05 PM
I haven't either, really! I did one similar a few pages ago with pesto and sauce dollops though. This one was much better, with a nice tomato bite when you get to a piece. Will definitely be making this one again. I really liked this cheese combo. This is the one I said I was going to try in your thread. Very unique taste and aroma too; the leftover slices smell great. It accented the Saputo well to me.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 18, 2016, 10:15:31 PM
That sounds like an interesting blend of cheese. I need to venture out more.

I've got a can of cherry tomatoes that I've been thinking of how to work into a pie. Perhaps I'll give that a go.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 18, 2016, 10:19:33 PM
That sounds like an interesting blend of cheese. I need to venture out more.

I've got a can of cherry tomatoes that I've been thinking of how to work into a pie. Perhaps I'll give that a go.

If you wanted to add a meat, I think it would be really good with sausage chunks.
Or you could do pepperoni like the pie in my avatar, it's blends in well with cherry tomatoes. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 18, 2016, 11:09:26 PM
I was thinking sausage chunks when I saw your post today.

That must be the other recent place I've seen the cherry tomatoes on the pizza thing. Thanks for pointing that out. Again. :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 19, 2016, 12:46:23 PM
Another tip, if hand mixing a lower hydration dough, a sponge or preferment seems to make it easy since part of the flour is already hydrated.
Yesterdays pie was 58%. I just had the leftover slices (for breakfast) and they were so good. I might add this one to the line up.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 21, 2016, 03:16:32 PM
Crumb test
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 21, 2016, 05:55:14 PM
Crumb test
What are you testing? Looks like you could pile the toppings on without soaking through.  8)

fwiw, when I go on and on about getting a tighter crumb, I still do like a big outer rim. Just not on my small pies. If I was making 16-18'ers, I'd let the outer rims stay big. Good for sopping up the extra juice.

Roy
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 21, 2016, 11:44:15 PM
55% water
.1 TF
7+1oz Saputo/Bellavitano
Whole peeled/un-drained/blended

Just testing
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 22, 2016, 06:59:05 AM
You are in the zone my friend - according to my calculations, you only 1 glass of wine away from nirvana with that slice - I'm officially and rightfully, jealous  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 22, 2016, 07:57:35 AM
Looks good. Looks very good. Looking at this on a day I'm not baking is tough to do.  :drool:

So, how was it?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2016, 10:58:06 AM
Ryan,

Have you found the sweet spots for hydration and thickness factor?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 22, 2016, 01:32:14 PM
You are in the zone my friend - according to my calculations, you only 1 glass of wine away from nirvana with that slice - I'm officially and rightfully, jealous  :)

Cheers Norm ;) all things are a go with these "late night pies" >:D

Looks good. Looks very good. Looking at this on a day I'm not baking is tough to do.  :drool:

So, how was it?

Roy

Pretty solid slice Roy, nothing too epic, but pretty good. I put the oregano over the cheese, I think I like it on the sauce more, but maybe I didn't use enough? What feels like a lot of oregano to me doesn't look anywhere near some of the more herbed slices. I have half a pie left though so I'll be going for a reheat soon to make sure lol.
This was a 4 hour dough, experimenting with the textural differences of a same day pie versus one that sees the refrigerator. I've been getting a nice Fazzari style eggshell type rim with these same day doughs which I like. These were store brand whole peeled, not bad. Like I mentioned in your thread still looking for a sauce that really nails it. I think I might reduce another 28 oz can down to just enough for a single pie again, last time I did that with Di Napoli tomatoes it was quite good.

Ryan,

Have you found the sweet spots for hydration and thickness factor?

Peter

Peter,

This was my lowest yet for a NY style at 55% with KABF. I did this one in the food processor. With this TF and hydration, pretty easy to open evenly. I would say I haven't necessary nailed the sweet spot as I'm still tinkering with the bake setup though. Plus oil percentage and bake time are as big of a factor as hydration and thickness I would say in regards to the final pie. My pies are averaging 7-9 minutes from the last few bakes. It's interesting that my false ceiling achieves a much faster bake on a smaller pie; when I did a CaptBob dough it cooked very fast, as it fit entirely under the inverted pan. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg452695#msg452695

Yesterdays bake was using one stone on the lowest rack, one on the highest, starting on the bottom via 17" screen, then going direct to stone on the top rack to receive radiant top heat and finish the botton. The last few bakes had been with my false ceiling. The broiler tends to dry out the rim to me unless the pizza is much lower in the oven than the top rack, inverse square law. The Boardwalk style pie I did the other day was on the lowest rack with some broiler support. That was a really good pie. Anyways I haven't felt compelled to make a NY pie over 60% since I started experimenting below it. TF I'm still messing with, I personally like .07 but I eat too much cheese when it's that thin. It's certainly more filling with more dough weight. In reading the forum many have settled on .085, I might find home there as well. .0825 on the Boardwalk style the other day, right in line.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 22, 2016, 08:34:40 PM
When was the last time you tried Cento 'Certified San Marzano' ?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 22, 2016, 10:17:14 PM
My local store has Cento whole peeled, chefs cut, crushed, puree, petite diced, and paste. No certified SM  :(

Tomatoes I've had good luck with:

Luigi Vitelli DOP San Marzano
Di Napoli San Marzano Style
Muir Glen Whole Peeled
Cento Whole Peeled
Carmelina San Marzano

I think it was in Roy's thread where I said the Pomi has been really dark red lately. I like the texture more than the taste I think, a food mill would be a logical choice I think for my pizza journey. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 23, 2016, 08:23:22 AM
My local store has Cento whole peeled, chefs cut, crushed, puree, petite diced, and paste. No certified SM  :(
...

That's ridiculous!  Good luck with the food mill if you give it a try. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 23, 2016, 12:22:31 PM
That's ridiculous!  Good luck with the food mill if you give it a try.

Are you straining them? How are you preparing whole peeled?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 23, 2016, 01:55:46 PM
Are you straining them? How are you preparing whole peeled?

I break each tomato in half over the sink with my hands to let some of the water and seeds fall out, then place the tomato into a blender cup. Once all the tomatoes are in the cup, I turn it upside down (again over the sink) using a spoon to keep the tomatoes from falling out. This removes more water. Then I blend it until it's as thin as it will get. (Almost the consistency of water.) I prefer to use only this as the sauce base, but I've recently been adding this back to the thin puree from the can as I don't want to use more than one can per bake. I then add my seasonings and let the sauce sit at room temperature until bake time (about 6 hours later).

It feels a bit counter-intuitive to to turn whole tomatoes into a thin puree without chunks, but I've found it works best for my melt and overall flavor.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 23, 2016, 02:01:31 PM
I break each tomato in half over the sink with my hands to let some of the water and seeds fall out, then place the tomato into a blender cup. Once all the tomatoes are in the cup, I turn it upside down (again over the sink) using a spoon to keep the tomatoes from falling out. This removes more water. Then I blend it until it's as thin as it will get. (Almost the consistency of water.) I prefer to use only this as the sauce base, but I've recently been adding this back to the thin puree from the can as I don't want to use more than one can per bake. I then add my seasonings and let the sauce sit at room temperature until bake time (about 6 hours later).

How thick is the final sauce? How many pizzas are you getting per 28 oz can?

I'm gonna test something today.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 23, 2016, 02:07:46 PM
I break each tomato in half over the sink with my hands to let some of the water and seeds fall out, then place the tomato into a blender cup. Once all the tomatoes are in the cup, I turn it upside down (again over the sink) using a spoon to keep the tomatoes from falling out. This removes more water. Then I blend it until it's as thin as it will get. (Almost the consistency of water.) I prefer to use only this as the sauce base, but I've recently been adding this back to the thin puree from the can as I don't want to use more than one can per bake. I then add my seasonings and let the sauce sit at room temperature until bake time (about 6 hours later).

It feels a bit counter-intuitive to to turn whole tomatoes into a thin puree without chunks, but I've found it works best for my melt and overall flavor.

How are you blending it so thin if you are removing the excess liquid? Are you blending it longer to get the thin consistency? Do you add any oil?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 23, 2016, 02:15:42 PM
How thick is the final sauce? How many pizzas are you getting per 28 oz can?

I'm gonna test something today.

Final sauce is as thin as possible, almost water. Besides herbs, I only add 1 tsp of evoo.

I once bought a quart of sauce from a local pizzeria and was surprised by how thin it was. The famous Pizza Town Stretch video also displays a thin sauce.

I could never get Sclafani Crushed to have the right consistency despite blending it and adding 5 tbs water and 1 tbs evoo.

I've never made enough pizza to finish a whole can - I have a lot left after 3 14" pies. When I only used the tomato, I had just enough for 2 12" pies.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 23, 2016, 02:18:45 PM
How are you blending it so thin if you are removing the excess liquid? Are you blending it longer to get the thin consistency? Do you add any oil?

My wife has one of those blenders made for smoothies. 10 seconds in there and it's thin. I add oil, but only 1 tsp. The puree in the cento sm is very thin too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 23, 2016, 02:21:17 PM
Final sauce is as thin as possible, almost water. Besides herbs, I only add 1 tsp of evoo.

I once bought a quart of sauce from a local pizzeria and was surprised by how thin it was. The famous Pizza Town Stretch video also displays a thin sauce.

I could never get Sclafani Crushed to have the right consistency despite blending it and adding 5 tbs water and 1 tbs evoo.

I've never made enough pizza to finish a whole can - I have a lot left after 3 14" pies. When I only used the tomato, I had just enough for 2 12" pies.

I've been experimenting with a lot of things from that video, the sauce I did the other day was whole peeled undrained and blended, so pretty thin.
Heres what I'm wondering, do you find you put on "more" sauce when it is thin? I've made some pies where it dries up to nothing, I guess TF has a lot to do with that. More room to soak up with .1 than .07?

My wife has one of those blenders made for smoothies. 10 seconds in there and it's thin. I add oil, but only 1 tsp. The puree in the cento sm is very thin too.


I do too but I usually don't run past speed 2 or 3 on the blendtec as I fear of oxidizing. Perhaps I'll try higher speed next test.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 23, 2016, 02:26:03 PM
I've been experimenting with a lot of things from that video, the sauce I did the other day was whole peeled undrained and blended, so pretty thin.
Heres what I'm wondering, do you find you put on "more" sauce when it is thin? I've made some pies where it dries up to nothing, I guess TF has a lot to do with that. More room to soak up with .1 than .07?

Yes definitely. For me I learned that going in the other direction - when I went to the thicker sclafani, I had to use less sauce. Peter made an interesting point recently that for people that want to measure their sauce amount, perhaps they should do it by weight instead of volume to account for thickness.

Edit: I know I run the risk of negative effects from oxidation, but I think the benefits outweigh the risks. Turn it up to max and let it rip!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 23, 2016, 02:52:11 PM
Yes definitely. For me I learned that going in the other direction - when I went to the thicker sclafani, I had to use less sauce. Peter made an interesting point recently that for people that want to measure their sauce amount, perhaps they should do it by weight instead of volume to account for thickness.

Edit: I know I run the risk of negative effects from oxidation, but I think the benefits outweigh the risks. Turn it up to max and let it rip!
I agree, even though we like different textures. I've always considered the desired texture of the final bake more important than the sauce looking a little light-colored.  I'm not sure what the other negative benefits of oxidation, but on some cans of muttis, standing water could cause some soaking through. Probably a partial deficiency in dough skin stretching, too, but I digress.   :(
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 24, 2016, 10:17:08 PM
Do you wash the tomatoes ala Varasano?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 25, 2016, 07:01:04 AM
Do you wash the tomatoes ala Varasano?

I'm not sure if you're asking me or Roy (or the forum in general), but no I do not.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 25, 2016, 11:13:09 AM
I'm not sure if you're asking me or Roy (or the forum in general), but no I do not.

Yeah sorry, sometimes quotes make it sound like nobody else should reply.

I tried your method but I also ended up rinsing them off in a strainer before breaking the tomatoes in half because I was re-reading Varasano's site the other day. It was a test for something else, but I will try it again next time I make pizza for sure. Seemed promising. These were cheaper tomatoes I tested with though and the liquid they were packed in was quite tinny, so I'll have to watch out for that if I'm still needing to thin it down.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 26, 2016, 12:10:31 AM
 Slice test.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 26, 2016, 06:54:03 AM
Slice test.
What did you think?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 26, 2016, 07:23:02 AM
Looks like you nailed it, Ryan. If you wee trying to imitate the one from Queens, you got it.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41470.msg453902#msg453902 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41470.msg453902#msg453902)

Are you trying to make me feel better about my bubbles?  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jkb on October 26, 2016, 08:10:40 AM
Peter made an interesting point recently that for people that want to measure their sauce amount, perhaps they should do it by weight instead of volume to account for thickness.


I don't know.  More solids = less density.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 26, 2016, 11:08:29 AM
What did you think?

Next bake I'm going to try romano over reggiano and bring my false ceiling back because I think I got better top browning with it. This was a pretty good slice though. I went to 2.5% salt though from 2% - I've done as high as 3% in the past for nearlypolitan type pies. It didn't actually taste overly salty but it didn't seem necessary.

I did your tomato method which I liked but I think I under seasoned the sauce. Not really sure about herb quantities. I kept it old school just salt, sugar, and oregano but I didn't really nail the amounts.

10 oz of Saputo, the most I have done. It did give it more of a chew to the cheese. Bake time was 10 minutes, I pulled the sugar to slow the bottom browning down to see if I would get a more even top browning with the rack in the lowest position. I ended up moving it to the top rack for the last 2 minutes though as I still wanted to see more cheese color, so like I said I think I will bring back the false ceiling.
Looks like you nailed it, Ryan. If you wee trying to imitate the one from Queens, you got it.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41470.msg453902#msg453902 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41470.msg453902#msg453902)

Are you trying to make me feel better about my bubbles?  ;D

It's funny I posted in your thread before I even baked. I kind of thought they would disappear since I used more cheese and the dough tempered for 2.5 hours though. The dough was still pretty cold though. My fridge might be too cold? Because I get a lot different activity when I put the doughs in my mini fridge versus the main one.  Maybe I need to stop being such a caveman and start measuring final dough temperature and such?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 26, 2016, 02:03:47 PM
I was thinking about this. If my calculations were correct when I made a cheat sheet:
10oz is 283g and an 18" pie is 254 sq inches, then 283/254 =  1.114g per sq inch.
1.114g per sq in for my 14" pie (154s inches) comes out to 172g.

I've tried that amount before. I did not get the full tomato - cheese bubbling cooking thing that I want for my pies. There's a flavor development when the bubble/boil happens that I personally believe is a requirement for my NY pie memories. Before I came up with that little pearl, I thought the mistake was in my sauce recipe.

Coming back full circle, I wonder if your rate of cheese/sauce melting and bubbling was different with the 10oz of cheese, and if that led to the sensation that made you suspect the sauce as being under-spiced?

Just a thought I had, that's all. I know I get really, um, cranky after a bake when I do not get that specific flavor.   :-[ 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 26, 2016, 02:44:54 PM
I was thinking about this. If my calculations were correct when I made a cheat sheet:
10oz is 283g and an 18" pie is 254 sq inches, then 283/254 =  1.114g per sq inch.
1.114g per sq in for my 14" pie (154s inches) comes out to 172g.

I've tried that amount before. I did not get the full tomato - cheese bubbling cooking thing that I want for my pies. There's a flavor development when the bubble/boil happens that I personally believe is a requirement for my NY pie memories. Before I came up with that little pearl, I thought the mistake was in my sauce recipe.

Coming back full circle, I wonder if your rate of cheese/sauce melting and bubbling was different with the 10oz of cheese, and if that led to the sensation that made you suspect the sauce as being under-spiced?

Just a thought I had, that's all. I know I get really, um, cranky after a bake when I do not get that specific flavor.   :-[

Thanks Roy, 10 oz for my 17" pie is right around 1.25g per square inch
Harry says larger pie needs more cheese. I was content with around 4 oz on my 14"
I was going to try 9 but went straight to 10 lol. It was bubbling pretty well but it was on the lowest rack so might have needed more top heat. I'll bring the false ceiling back next bake and see what happens. I pulled all the oil in the dough to test the chew. KABF, 60% hydration, no oil, 10 minute bake, rim still didn't dry out. A bit of a Glutenboy dough.

I didn't add any pepper though and I tend to like black pepper with my tomato, and more oregano. Maybe the saltier crust muted the sauce flavor?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 26, 2016, 05:30:11 PM
You may need more seasoning (how much oregano and basil did you use), but did you increase the sauce amount given the extra cheese and the thin sauce?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 26, 2016, 06:00:08 PM
You may need more seasoning (how much oregano and basil did you use), but did you increase the sauce amount given the extra cheese and the thin sauce?

I didn't measure the oregano, I will next time. You can tell in the photo it's not that much though. I think i got a little shy as I was dressing the pie! I didn't put any basil, I was thinking pizza town video.

This sauce might still not have been thin enough. I was seeing if I could get away with a 14 oz can for one pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 26, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Thanks Roy, 10 oz for my 17" pie is right around 1.25g per square inch
Harry says larger pie needs more cheese. I was content with around 4 oz on my 14"
I was going to try 9 but went straight to 10 lol. It was bubbling pretty well but it was on the lowest rack so might have needed more top heat. I'll bring the false ceiling back next bake and see what happens. I pulled all the oil in the dough to test the chew. KABF, 60% hydration, no oil, 10 minute bake, rim still didn't dry out. A bit of a Glutenboy dough.

I didn't add any pepper though and I tend to like black pepper with my tomato, and more oregano. Maybe the saltier crust muted the sauce flavor?
I read what Harry wrote about the pie size to cheese thing needing to be increased, but didn't follow it. I'll go back and look sometime very soon.

My oil less batch was OK. First bake too tough, IIRC. I might have mixed it 3 more minutes to try and give it strength and it didn't work.

I do pepper in my sauce now. Mainly it's back in the sauce, but that could change back as soon as I get decent peppercorns again.

We've tried several types of oregano and nothing has done it for us. We generally like Oregano, so who knows?   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2016, 06:57:45 AM
I would be careful in increasing cheese too much if you're looking for a melt where the cheese and sauce combine.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 27, 2016, 02:00:16 PM
I think cheese temp might have a lot to do with it? I usually pre weigh it and leave it in the fridge while the oven heats and don't pull it out until the last minute.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 27, 2016, 05:19:55 PM
Matt,

Are you still using 2t herbs per 28 oz can? Do you add after the blend?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2016, 08:18:52 PM
Matt,

Are you still using 2t herbs per 28 oz can? Do you add after the blend?

Ryan, For a 28oz can of whole peeled (which shrinks when I drain some of the water as described earlier) I'm currently using 4.5 tsp (3 oregano + 1.5 dried basil). I add them after blending and mix with a spoon. Then the sauce sits at room temperature for several hours before use.

I also add 1/4 tsp garlic powder, 1/2 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp sugar, 1/8 tsp black pepper, 1 tsp evoo.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2016, 08:20:39 PM
I think cheese temp might have a lot to do with it? I usually pre weigh it and leave it in the fridge while the oven heats and don't pull it out until the last minute.

I let my cheese warm to room temperature.  I don't know if it's necessary or not, but will depend on top heat.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 27, 2016, 08:39:49 PM
Ryan, For a 28oz can of whole peeled (which shrinks when I drain some of the water as described earlier) I'm currently using 4.5 tsp (3 oregano + 1.5 dried basil). I add them after blending and mix with a spoon. Then the sauce sits at room temperature for several hours before use.

I also add 1/4 tsp garlic powder, 1/2 tsp salt, 1/4 tsp sugar, 1/8 tsp black pepper, 1 tsp evoo.

Thanks!
Have you tried Cento Chefs Cut? It's like Stanislaus Tomato Filets, supposed to be like whole peeled, but more per can than if they were packed whole.
Do you use straight mozzarella or are you using a blend of cheeses?

In JD's thread he talks about using more seasoning as many of the flavors are lost during baking. My sauce had a lot of oregano flavor pre bake but kind of disappeared post bake! I added 1/2t oregano and 1/8t basil for a 14 oz can, 1/8t black pepper, 1 small clove of garlic microwaved and blended with the sauce.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2016, 08:50:31 PM
Thanks!
Have you tried Cento Chefs Cut? It's like Stanislaus Tomato Filets, supposed to be like whole peeled, but more per can than if they were packed whole.
Do you use straight mozzarella or are you using a blend of cheeses?

In JD's thread he talks about using more seasoning as many of the flavors are lost during baking. My sauce had a lot of oregano flavor pre bake but kind of disappeared post bake! I added 1/2t oregano and 1/8t basil for a 14 oz can, 1/8t black pepper, 1 small clove of garlic microwaved and blended with the sauce.

I'm not sure that I've ever seen chefs cut. I use just mozz, maybe with some parm on top of the sauce like Pizza Town. But I often don't put enough to really taste it. I only put it towards the rim, like how varasano puts oil near the rim to introduce a new flavor when you're mostly through the slice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 27, 2016, 09:39:01 PM
I tried Locatelli pecorino tonight... it was strong!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 28, 2016, 08:14:32 AM
I tried Locatelli pecorino tonight... it was strong!
It is, indeed. I've used it a couple times. Too much.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 28, 2016, 11:14:40 PM
Excellent texture, really tasty slice.
56% water, .07 TF
Saputo Gold, DOP Reggiano
Cooked down Cento tomatoes with salt, pepper, sugar; oregano added after saucing. Texturally one of my best efforts. Used a healthy bit of parm, not sure how much as it didn't set off the scale which takes 4 grams. I ate half a pie, speaks for itself. I used Tom Lehmann's opening technique, use a rolling pin to open it halfway and finish by hand. I managed to get into that magical zone of crust color and bake time where the undercrust is crisp and caramelized but the pie is not in the oven long enough to turn it hard and brittle.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 28, 2016, 11:31:30 PM
That is sweet!!!  I can dig that bottom crust, dude! Any oil in the formulation?

Half the pie can get easy sometimes. :)

Kudos on the pie, dude! Looks fantastic.  :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 29, 2016, 12:26:21 AM
That is sweet!!!  I can dig that bottom crust, dude! Any oil in the formulation?

Half the pie can get easy sometimes. :)

Kudos on the pie, dude! Looks fantastic.  :chef: :chef:

Thanks Roy! 2% oil in this one. This was a simple pie but nice and balanced. Definitely a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 29, 2016, 07:03:22 AM
Nice work Ryan - I alway wonder how both you and Roy get that nice even brown bottom - mine are always spotty with dark and light spots? I did some measurements and if I pick up some 2 inch square tubing and offset my stone to the right or left of center I can just fit a 16 inch pie in (with about 1/16" margin). I have a set of these on order from Loyds pans - maybe using them will solve my polkadot bottom problem. I'll file a full report once I get everything set up and test them!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 29, 2016, 07:20:02 AM
Nice Ryan!! :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 29, 2016, 11:14:58 AM
Nice work Ryan - I alway wonder how both you and Roy get that nice even brown bottom - mine are always spotty with dark and light spots? I did some measurements and if I pick up some 2 inch square tubing and offset my stone to the right or left of center I can just fit a 16 inch pie in (with about 1/16" margin). I have a set of these on order from Loyds pans - maybe using them will solve my polkadot bottom problem. I'll file a full report once I get everything set up and test them!

Thanks Norm, hope you're doing well today. I always wonder how Roy gets that even brown bottom! Roy gets it pretty much every bake, I'm still trying to figure it out. I thought it was a proponent of bake time, but Roy bakes usually under 7 minutes and has no sugar; I was at 1.5%, hopefully he will chime in and talk about it. All I know is when you bake the pie right, the whole bottom of the crust is its own layer of eggshell crisp. It's not crunchy and will droop, but it's crispy and caramelized which I think is where a ton of flavor comes from. I'm thinking that you don't necessarily need a lot of fermentation if you can get the flavor from the caramelization/malliard reaction on the crust, it adds a ton of taste components separate of a fermented dough. I believe that's why my 4 hour dough from post 236 was so good. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43782.msg452338#msg452338 You can really see the thin caramelized microcrisp layer in that photo. 

Are you turning your pie while baking? It's a lot of fun to make bigger pies, the slice factor  :D, and 16" is really nice.
Let us know how it works out! I'm still using a 17" Winco screen. I think I could fit an 18" in this oven...maybe.  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on October 29, 2016, 05:15:58 PM
Yes, I always give it one 1/2 turn about halfway through the bake
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 29, 2016, 06:41:48 PM
You guys are far too kind. 

I'm getting really close to the next version of my super-convoluted NY Style process down. I'm formulating a question to the Dough Doctor about it. There's some vernacular I don't want to get wrong about gluten development that I've read. Much of it pieced together. Some that I can't tell is worded because of a sensation that was felt, or if it's technically correct vernacular. But Gluten and Hydration seems to be what I was after to get what I wanted.

Pizza is good.  :chef:



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 30, 2016, 07:27:36 AM
Update on a couple topics we've been discussing here as I've finally been able to bake again after 2 long weeks.

Dough temp/bubbles: My dough was noticeably cooler when I opened it. Dough that had been sitting out for 2.5 hours felt more like only 1 hour. My thermostat is directly next to where my dough rests and where I open it. It read 69 versus my summer temp of 72, and a cold house with heat must be different from a warm house with air conditioning. If I remember next time I'll take the dough's surface temp. It opened fine, felt good, but I did get a couple bubbles.

Sauce/cheese amount: did my normal 28oz with drained whole tomatoes. I had roughly 3 tbs left after 3 14'' pies. I'd guess that I used 10 tbs per pie (roughly as I didn't count and they are a bit heaping). One pie I noted had a bit too much sauce. I took a couple pics pre-bake, I'll edit and post them if you're interested.
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 30, 2016, 08:57:04 AM
I cannot speak for Ryan, and it is his thread, but I'd be greatly interested to see the pics.

Very interesting note on the temps and bubbles thing, btw. Very interesting.  8) 

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 30, 2016, 10:47:41 AM
Update on a couple topics we've been discussing here as I've finally been able to bake again after 2 long weeks.

Dough temp/bubbles: My dough was noticeably cooler when I opened it. Dough that had been sitting out for 2.5 hours felt more like only 1 hour. My thermostat is directly next to where my dough rests and where I open it. It read 69 versus my summer temp of 72, and a cold house with heat must be different from a warm house with air conditioning. If I remember next time I'll take the dough's surface temp. It opened fine, felt good, but I did get a couple bubbles.

Sauce/cheese amount: did my normal 28oz with drained whole tomatoes. I had roughly 3 tbs left after 3 14'' pies. I'd guess that I used 10 tbs per pie (roughly as I didn't count and they are a bit heaping). One pie I noted had a bit too much sauce. I took a couple pics pre-bake, I'll edit and post them if you're interested.
 


Yeah, post them here or in the how much cheese/sauce for your NY thread. I went a little heavier on sauce my last bake after the last few runs but I kind of liked it near the rim, nice textural change into a more saucy bite. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 30, 2016, 02:10:12 PM
I posted my pics in the "How much sauce and cheese" thread, I had forgotten about that thread.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41470.msg454719#msg454719
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 01, 2016, 11:08:23 AM
Pie pieces
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 01, 2016, 11:14:20 AM
Looks good, Ryan. Wish I had one in front of me right now.  :chef: 

Anything "different" tested? I see you expanded the sauce on the edge thing. Looking like it's pretty good.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 01, 2016, 11:21:05 AM
Nice color on that crust Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on November 01, 2016, 11:38:40 AM
Nice color on that crust Ryan!

 ^^^!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 01, 2016, 02:22:28 PM
Looks good, Ryan. Wish I had one in front of me right now.  :chef: 

Anything "different" tested? I see you expanded the sauce on the edge thing. Looking like it's pretty good.

Roy

Thanks Roy, I like the look of cheese to the rim, but I think I prefer the taste of a sauce border, just to switch things up as you get to the end of the slice.

Pretty much the same as last bake, bubble issue seems to have been solved, at least temporarily. Cracked another can of 7/11's - salt, pepper, oregano, granulated garlic.
Nice color on that crust Ryan!

Thanks Norm, Bob
I tried another bake with the stone in the highest rack position again, hoping to get some color from radiant heat off the top of the oven. It didn't seem to give me much color though, I ended up broiling for a minute since I was so disappointed in the top color, most of the color came from that.
Anyways that matches what happened last time I tried the top rack. Oh well, just a few more kinks in rack position and I think I'll have it down. It's funny, my last bake was really lacking in top color but had an incredible bottom "crunch layer" as Roy calls it. This one had good top browning, but was missing the bottom color, and subsequent flavor from a better bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2016, 09:27:31 PM
Pie pieces

I'm liking your thin slices...and the sauce border...and the crust...basically everything  looks great! Nice job  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 02, 2016, 11:05:24 AM
Thanks Matt! Another day another pizza  :-D
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 03, 2016, 09:39:04 PM
Sauce for next New Yorker, a mix of straight 7/11 and a cooked down paste from those same 7/11's

Pseudo-Saporito

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2016, 07:27:46 AM
Sauce for next New Yorker, a mix of straight 7/11 and a cooked down paste from those same 7/11's

Pseudo-Saporito

Ryan,

How did those cooked down 7/11's taste, and how did you cook them? Did they taste anything like Saporito?

The reason I asked is because I have been fooling around with roasting some whole tomatoes (from cans) and also some whole tomatoes canned, and just generic crushed sauces with added crushed garlic, fresh basil and some other ingredients.  What I found out so far that slow roasting gives a totally a different taste than Saporito or any other pizza sauce than I have tried before.  I kinda stole Les's method and then tried different things.

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 04, 2016, 08:04:31 AM
Ryan, so those cooked down 7/11's should be able to be thinned down and behave similarly to that Pizza Town sauce consistency?

Norma, you had a thread somewhere walking about the roasting Cucinas, IIRC. I bought a big can to try out. Certainly cheap enough. will try a few different things. Roast, glutenboy's pan-sear thing that Ryan and I were speaking of recently and, of course, traditional methods.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2016, 08:44:37 AM

Norma, you had a thread somewhere walking about the roasting Cucinas, IIRC. I bought a big can to try out. Certainly cheap enough. will try a few different things. Roast, glutenboy's pan-sear thing that Ryan and I were speaking of recently and, of course, traditional methods.

Roy,

Yes, I do have a thread about roasting the Alta Cucina tomatoes, other whole tomatoes and crushed sauce mixed together with other ingredients. After trying roasted tomatoes on a slice of pizza at Scott's Slice Out Hunger Event is what got me started to try slow roasted tomatoes.  Also playing around with Les's method of making a pizza sauce also helped.  Let us know your results when you try different methods. 

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 04, 2016, 09:29:45 AM
Ryan,

How did those cooked down 7/11's taste, and how did you cook them? Did they taste anything like Saporito?

The reason I asked is because I have been fooling around with roasting some whole tomatoes (from cans) and also some whole tomatoes canned, and just generic crushed sauces with added crushed garlic, fresh basil and some other ingredients.  What I found out so far that slow roasting gives a totally a different taste than Saporito or any other pizza sauce than I have tried before.  I kinda stole Les's method and then tried different things.

Norma

Norma,
I've never actually tried Saporito, so I honestly can't say! It's my approximation of an extra heavy pizza sauce though. I started with a Quart mason jar full of 7/11 tomatoes, the end result is around a cup and a half. I sautéed one clove of garlic in a 1 tbsp of oil and cooked the sauce down to a rich hearty paste.

I've been experimenting with partially cooked sauces for a little while, I like to reserve some uncooked tomato to add brightness and freshness at the end to make up for my lack of technology. I recall reading that Stanislaus uses a vacuum to drop the simmer temperature to preserve more flavor so I'm just attempting to approximate some freshness without their processing equipment.

This article inspired me to try mixing.
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/how-to-make-the-best-fresh-tomato-sauce-summer-spaghetti-sauce-which-tomatoes-to-use.html

I haven't tried roasting canned tomatoes, but I'm a big fan of roasted tomatoes, especially cherry tomatoes. I know Mitch was roasting tomatoes for some of his recent work.

Ryan, so those cooked down 7/11's should be able to be thinned down and behave similarly to that Pizza Town sauce consistency?

Norma, you had a thread somewhere walking about the roasting Cucinas, IIRC. I bought a big can to try out. Certainly cheap enough. will try a few different things. Roast, glutenboy's pan-sear thing that Ryan and I were speaking of recently and, of course, traditional methods.

Yeah, exactly Roy. I've not tried a commercial extra heavy pizza sauce out of the can, but I can say homemade paste is much richer and flavorful than the tinny metallic stuff on the retail level. Even the expensive tube packed ones don't taste as good from what I've sampled so far. I've been wanting to try the Alta Cucina's or Valaroso but Smart & Final only seems to carry the 7/11's.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2016, 10:15:21 AM
Norma,
I've never actually tried Saporito, so I honestly can't say! It's my approximation of an extra heavy pizza sauce though. I started with a Quart mason jar full of 7/11 tomatoes, the end result is around a cup and a half. I sautéed one clove of garlic in a 1 tbsp of oil and cooked the sauce down to a rich hearty paste.

I've been experimenting with partially cooked sauces for a little while, I like to reserve some uncooked tomato to add brightness and freshness at the end to make up for my lack of technology. I recall reading that Stanislaus uses a vacuum to drop the simmer temperature to preserve more flavor so I'm just attempting to approximate some freshness without their processing equipment.

This article inspired me to try mixing.
http://www.seriouseats.com/2014/08/how-to-make-the-best-fresh-tomato-sauce-summer-spaghetti-sauce-which-tomatoes-to-use.html

I haven't tried roasting canned tomatoes, but I'm a big fan of roasted tomatoes, especially cherry tomatoes. I know Mitch was roasting tomatoes for some of his recent work.


Ryan,

Thanks for explaining what you did to make the 7/11's into a rich hearty paste.  I guess I wasn't following your thread enough to know you have been experimenting with partially cooked sauces for awhile.  Will be interesting to see if you like your hearty paste with something else on your pizzas, or if you thin it down.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 04, 2016, 11:15:02 AM
Ryan,

Thanks for explaining what you did to make the 7/11's into a rich hearty paste.  I guess I wasn't following your thread enough to know you have been experimenting with partially cooked sauces for awhile.  Will be interesting to see if you like your hearty paste with something else on your pizzas, or if you thin it down.

I started with pasta sauce, reserving a bit of tomato. I did like the results, I'm excited to try this one. I prepared a dough ball yesterday, will probably bake today or tomorrow. Also since there isn't a bunch of water left, the paste should freeze well as you mentioned in another thread about freezing your sauce.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2016, 08:56:46 PM
I started with pasta sauce, reserving a bit of tomato. I did like the results, I'm excited to try this one. I prepared a dough ball yesterday, will probably bake today or tomorrow. Also since there isn't a bunch of water left, the paste should freeze well as you mentioned in another thread about freezing your sauce.

Ryan,

Thanks for telling us you started with pasta sauce, reserving a bit of tomato.  Good to hear you liked the results.  The paste should freeze well.  I haven't had any problems with freezing the Saporito and unfreezing it the next week.

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 05, 2016, 12:51:45 AM
Tonight's 17 incher :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 05, 2016, 07:13:27 AM
Looks great  :drool: :drool: :drool: - how did the sauce work out?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 05, 2016, 09:06:57 AM
Man, that looks dead on perfect.! What's you do this time around? Especially curious on the bake portion.

I can bake up OK looking 14-inchers, but there is nothing like the looks of a nice, big 16-18 inch pie done to perfection.

Norm, I'll need that hammer you mentioned after your done.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 05, 2016, 12:58:39 PM
Looks great  :drool: :drool: :drool: - how did the sauce work out?

Thanks Norm! Quite a good pie!  :)
I really liked it, I seasoned it on the pie with a little fresh cracked black pepper (can't help myself) a solid dusting of finely grated parmigiano-reggiano and a few shakes of oregano.

Man, that looks dead on perfect.! What's you do this time around? Especially curious on the bake portion.

I can bake up OK looking 14-inchers, but there is nothing like the looks of a nice, big 16-18 inch pie done to perfection.

Norm, I'll need that hammer you mentioned after your done.

Roy

Thanks Roy! Come on though, If your pies are just OK looking I'm the trash man!  :-D

I was really happy with this one... my guest ate almost the whole pie lol, I eat enough pizza as it is so it's all good.
Hybrid cooked/uncooked sauce as mentioned above thinned out to a spreadable consistency. 9 oz Saputo Gold

This was stone in the lowest rack position, no false ceiling. Went for 4 minutes on screen, pulled the screen and went direct to stone for about 3 minutes, and finished on the top rack with a little broiler action. I've had mixed experiences with broiling, definitely with over broiling, I don't like when dries out and turns brittle or hard; but with a little reservation the last two bakes I have been able to get a nice cheese boil and crust color.
The sauce border isn't as pretty as a full cheese layer but I really do like the contrast of a rich bite of sauce at the rim.

Have you tried a screen? I'm not sure if Norm is converted yet, but I know he tried the Lloyd disk on his last bake and they sure looked excellent. It's a lot of fun to make big pies, I love the slice factor, plus I feel like I'm getting a lot more bang for my buck when I have the oven preheating for an hour heating the house up. A bit jealous of you blackstone guys who can just fire it up and blast off pies at a moments notice.

Here's the bakers percent for anyone curious.

Flour (100%): 300.61 g  |  10.6 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (56%): 168.34 g  |  5.94 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.25%): 0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (2.1%): 6.31 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Oil (1.5%): 4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%): 4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Total (161.35%):   485.03 g | 17.11 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.075375


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on November 05, 2016, 04:39:46 PM
Tonight's 17 incher :)

Very nice Ryan!  :chef:  Which flour are you using these days?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 05, 2016, 05:59:24 PM
What was your oven temp?

I've not tried a screen since getting my dough strong enough to get the bottom I wanted to get.

The Blackstone has some limitations, but pre-heated in under 30 minutes even with my firebricks is very nice.  ;D   I do need to try my best inside oven routine soon. winter's coming. Cool rainy days. blech!!!  Crap, we are so due an ice storm. Don't even wanna talk about winter yet. Pizza. Pizza. Pizza.....

Actually, meat sauce on pasta tonight. Muttis and Sclafani's. Another 45 minutes......  It smells so good in here. I wish I had not used my last ripe pizza dough ball. That would have been sooooo good.



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 05, 2016, 10:04:18 PM
Very nice Ryan!  :chef:  Which flour are you using these days?

Thanks Jeff! Been using KABF for the last 10 or 15 lbs worth of pie.

What was your oven temp?

I've not tried a screen since getting my dough strong enough to get the bottom I wanted to get.

The Blackstone has some limitations, but pre-heated in under 30 minutes even with my firebricks is very nice.  ;D   I do need to try my best inside oven routine soon. winter's coming. Cool rainy days. blech!!!  Crap, we are so due an ice storm. Don't even wanna talk about winter yet. Pizza. Pizza. Pizza.....

Actually, meat sauce on pasta tonight. Muttis and Sclafani's. Another 45 minutes......  It smells so good in here. I wish I had not used my last ripe pizza dough ball. That would have been sooooo good.


Oven was set at 550, still don't have an IR thermometer, so not sure what the stone temp or anything was, but this oven doesn't run near as hot as the old one so it was probably pretty close to that. I'd really like a Blackstone or maybe even a Roccbox, but I'd also like to see a nice solution for making 18" pies outside, that would be great. Hope you're not falling under the weather Roy, it's not like you to run out of dough!   ;D

That sounds like a nice meal, I'm on bean and rice duty tonight. Had a half pan of focaccia the other day, I think I'll make another since I have another quart mason jar of 7/11 in the fridge to turn into pasta sauce too. I have to make sure I keep the carbs high or the weight comes on... so I might eat another half sheet pan  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 06, 2016, 09:24:11 AM
550F for 7 minutes plus a little extra under the broiler sounds about right on my end. I've begun that oven looking process. Something affordable and easily switched from wood to gas with a big opening to to 18" pies is what I'm hoping to find. Might have to wait. The other alternative is to replace the inside oven with the type like your cousin has. Finding the perfect combination that way will be tough, too. In the meantime, I will probably just replace the gas burner on my Blackstone with one that allows me to control that yellow flame thing.

It was good. Those Sclafani's worked great. I cut it with some of the Mutti's to use them up. Much easier to fix a red sauce than a pizza sauce, though the difference is becoming less.

I have 4 balls out there now. Three are now 4-days old. One is now 9 days old. I could have used that, but as nice as it tastes, a CF 14-day boule is veddy, veddy nice. I wait a week.

My next pizza sauce experiment will be a meatier sauce for something like the Di Fara's Sicilian. I've got some Pancetta in the fridge now. that should help give me a start. Kind of a nebulous effort as I've not personally had one.  :-\
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 06, 2016, 09:52:39 AM
550F for 7 minutes plus a little extra under the broiler sounds about right on my end. I've begun that oven looking process. Something affordable and easily switched from wood to gas with a big opening to to 18" pies is what I'm hoping to find. Might have to wait. The other alternative is to replace the inside oven with the type like your cousin has. Finding the perfect combination that way will be tough, too. In the meantime, I will probably just replace the gas burner on my Blackstone with one that allows me to control that yellow flame thing.

It was good. Those Sclafani's worked great. I cut it with some of the Mutti's to use them up. Much easier to fix a red sauce than a pizza sauce, though the difference is becoming less.

I have 4 balls out there now. Three are now 4-days old. One is now 9 days old. I could have used that, but as nice as it tastes, a CF 14-day boule is veddy, veddy nice. I wait a week.

My next pizza sauce experiment will be a meatier sauce for something like the Di Fara's Sicilian. I've got some Pancetta in the fridge now. that should help give me a start. Kind of a nebulous effort as I've not personally had one.  :-\

Or maybe one of those single range double ovens with the low ceiling height like we were talking about could be the ticket. I do enjoy bakes at my cousins with the GE gas convection oven at 550. I haven't done a really long cold ferment in quite a while, lately after a day or two of staring at the container in the fridge I get in the mood to make a pie, and my pizzas are too big to have that much ammo on me, I'm already a major pie head! I do hate when there's no leftovers though... seems like a waste to make a pie, and not have any the next day!  ;D

Are you going to make a Sicilian too, or putting that sauce on your round slice?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 06, 2016, 12:12:07 PM
I'm definitely going to try a Sicilian. I'll likely make enough sauce to see what it's like on my standard round pie. Probably enough to freeze and try on one or both a Detroit or a Chicago DD.

I was looking at those ovens just yesterday during a trip to Lowes. Just so happens my son's PT job while in skool gettin' his edjukashun is in the millworks department.  Having one with upper and lower burners in the "pizza" compartment, deep enough for 18" with maybe an inch of extra room all while having the split between the upper and lower compartments big enough to book a not-so modest thanksgiving bird has not happened yet. Have not looked too hard yet, though.

The good thing about 14" is no leftovers. The bad thing about 14" is no leftovers.  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 08, 2016, 02:43:18 PM
Roy,

Norm posted in Today's Bread that he has one of those single range double ovens, but did not have good luck with the smaller opening.

Baking a 17 tomorrow and I think I'll whip up a square to go with it, have a concept I want to try. LDMP incoming today but out of flour. I'm feely pretty good about where my NY formula is at, but really curious to try this. I had some sunflower seed bread recently that was really good and had a nice malt taste to it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 08, 2016, 02:58:59 PM
Roy,

Norm posted in Today's Bread that he has one of those single range double ovens, but did not have good luck with the smaller opening.

Baking a 17 tomorrow and I think I'll whip up a square to go with it, have a concept I want to try. LDMP incoming today but out of flour. I'm feely pretty good about where my NY formula is at, but really curious to try this. I had some sunflower seed bread recently that was really good and had a nice malt taste to it.

I loved it for my Detroit Style. I used it entirely wrong for my NY style. Turns out that long term CF is not LDMP's friend. I wish I had either read that before or read it and had it register before. I tried to use it for months. Bad pizzza. I'm going to order some soon to try on a same-day effort.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll head over there and see what Norm has to say about it. I do know that when I went to fire-brick that my BS useful opening decreased by an inch.  That was/is a pain. I kept hitting the outer edge of the opening with my regular peel. I switched to a round one. I never claimed coordination as a strong suit.  :-D



 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 08, 2016, 03:16:55 PM
Yeah, that is what I have read, it can make the dough melt; do you recall what Lintner value you were using? They tend to run the gamut from what I've seen. It's been quite a while since I did a dough over 48 hours. I used to do a lot of 5 day doughs, this 17 incher in the fridge will have 3 days on it. Actually, should be a great test to a same day LDMP enhanced dough. Do you think you will bring back honey?

Here's Norms comment, was kind of a split discussion that started in your thread, continued through Today's Bread, and ended up in Post a Pic of Your Pie.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg455724#msg455724

That's an interesting mod, does it effect heat up time? Similar to what I've seen in the Neapolitan section to get a faster bake. Do you think that helps with the distinct crunch layer?

Sometimes its rticky coordinating a 17" pie onto a 15" stone, sometimes the pie hasn't set as much as I thought and will start sliding off the edge of the stone   ???
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 08, 2016, 03:36:05 PM
Yeah, that is what I have read, it can make the dough melt; do you recall what Lintner value you were using? They tend to run the gamut from what I've seen. It's been quite a while since I did a dough over 48 hours. I used to do a lot of 5 day doughs, this 17 incher in the fridge will have 3 days on it. Actually, should be a great test to a same day LDMP enhanced dough. Do you think you will bring back honey?

Here's Norms comment, was kind of a split discussion that started in your thread, continued through Today's Bread, and ended up in Post a Pic of Your Pie.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg455724#msg455724

That's an interesting mod, does it effect heat up time? Similar to what I've seen in the Neapolitan section to get a faster bake. Do you think that helps with the distinct crunch layer?

Sometimes its rticky coordinating a 17" pie onto a 15" stone, sometimes the pie hasn't set as much as I thought and will start sliding off the edge of the stone   ???
I don't know what the Litner value is on this stuff. It's the 5-lb lifetime supply black bag from Central Milling with a white label on it that say's "Tony Gemignani's Low Diastatic Artisan Malt". I've had it in the Freezer since I stopped using it. No idea of age or shelf life. I was going to ask you which one you're getting and then follow your lead.  :D 

Honey? I tried twice. I can't find a fruity honey at the farmer's market. The Blackberry is out of season. Was actually there this past weekend looking. I ordered some from online, but it crystalized before I could use it. My wife salvaged it for the occasional biscuit. It's gone.

That brick mod made a real difference. I went firebrick and had improvement right away. It just held more heat. At the same time, I went with a full inch thick kiln shelf that Jackitup found. That helped, too. I use that one inside. Both take longer to saturate. The firebrick had to increase by 5-10 minutes, and the kiln shelf by at least 15 minutes. I got more improvement from formulation and workflow than anything else. It's amazing the levels of improvement one can get through. I guess if I wasn't making weak dough that I might have never tried some of the other things.  :-\   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 08, 2016, 03:50:52 PM
This is the one I got.
https://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Diastatic-baking/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pmak-20

60 lintner, was the best bang for the buck and available through prime, otherwise I might have got the AB Mauri or Central Milling.
I think I'm losing quite a bit of heat from my cracked pizza stone. I'd like to replace it with a thicker 16" x 16" square stone.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 08, 2016, 04:20:44 PM
Just clicked the order button. It was in my cart. It'll be here on Thursday. I had that and the dough conditioner that Jackie Tran(Chau) had in the Vietnamese baguettes thread.

Oh, I almost forgot. We've been talking sauce ingredients lately. Two pies so far.  There is a peppercorn blend at RD. their "Chef's Quality" brand. I've seen a version online recently. It is really nice. My wife and I both dig it. Even on the shingle pies I made from the yeast we got on the same shopping trip. It looks sort of like this one.
http://www.spicebarn.com/mixed_peppercorns.htm (http://www.spicebarn.com/mixed_peppercorns.htm)

ps - thanks for the LDMP brand tip, btw. I was hesitating until you responded with what brand you were getting.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 09, 2016, 04:46:06 PM
Nice, I've been experimenting with a black & white peppercorn blend lately too.  No problem, hope it works well. Froze some of my hybrid sauce from last bake, will be going on tonights pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 09, 2016, 04:55:05 PM
Nice, I've been experimenting with a black & white peppercorn blend lately too.  No problem, hope it works well. Froze some of my hybrid sauce from last bake, will be going on tonights pie.
LUCK-KEEEEE!!!!!!   My Dentist is being such a don't-break-this-new-filling-out-of-there Nazi. No pie for till tomorrow or Thursday.   :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 10, 2016, 04:24:47 PM
I could tell this was going to be good as soon as I felt the dough. Haven't done an extended CF in a while, this was 4 days; same formula as the last few bakes.
Sauce was hybrid cooked/uncooked sauce thinned with water to desired consistency. Black & white peppercorn blend, oregano, and DOP Parmigiano applied to the sauced dough,  9 oz Saputo Gold using the slicing side of a box grater. Bake was 8-9 minutes, some broiling near the end. Thanks for looking!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 10, 2016, 04:50:50 PM
Oh my!!! that is nice. That is really nice. I am so jealous of your big pies. that looks like a perfect example of the slice pie. Much kudos.  :chef: :chef:

I bet that crust was so good.

(must _ find _ hammer...)

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 10, 2016, 05:33:52 PM
Excellent job Ryan - that looks perfect to me!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 10, 2016, 06:35:59 PM
Thanks a lot Roy, Norm!

I hope to get a 16" square baking stone soon, you can see where it hangs off the 15" round stone when I transfer off the screen; that should help a bit.
I was really happy with this one and where my NY formula is at, will try malt next bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on November 10, 2016, 06:36:50 PM
I could tell this was going to be good as soon as I felt the dough. Haven't done an extended CF in a while, this was 4 days; same formula as the last few bakes.
Sauce was hybrid cooked/uncooked sauce thinned with water to desired consistency. Black & white peppercorn blend, oregano, and DOP Parmigiano applied to the sauced dough,  9 oz Saputo Gold using the slicing side of a box grater. Bake was 8-9 minutes, some broiling near the end. Thanks for looking!

Sweet pie Ryan! :chef:  A perfect sauce line.  And nice job on your Saputo slicing .. I have a hard time making mine even and consistent. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2016, 07:40:05 PM
Ryan,

Great job on a delicious looking pie!

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 10, 2016, 07:54:38 PM
Thanks Jeff, Norma! Many thanks for your kind words and taking the time to check out my pies.  :)

Jeff that is with the slicing edge of a box grater so it's pretty consistent so long as I use quality mozzarella (like the Saputo) that stays firm. Some of the cheaper retail cheeses seem softer and fall apart while grating.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 10, 2016, 09:04:17 PM
Awesome pie! Great job Ryan!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 11, 2016, 02:04:08 PM
Thanks a lot Matt! And thanks to everybody who has provided this exchange to bounce ideas back and forth to make our pies better.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 12, 2016, 07:18:47 AM
...9 oz Saputo Gold using the slicing side of a box grater...

Ryan, You may be interested to see that when I purchased cheese from a local pizzeria (Grande part-skim) it was sliced similar to yours. (It baked nicely, but I prefer the flavor of whole milk.) Pic below.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2016, 09:14:55 AM
Ryan, You may be interested to see that when I purchased cheese from a local pizzeria (Grande part-skim) it was sliced similar to yours. (It baked nicely, but I prefer the flavor of whole milk.) Pic below.

I find the melt interesting too, my coverage looks a little off with the big shreds pre bake, but it ended up flowing and melting real nice and evenly.
I'd like to try Grande.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 12, 2016, 09:27:51 AM
I find the melt interesting too, my coverage looks a little off with the big shreds pre bake, but it ended up flowing and melting real nice and evenly.
I'd like to try Grande.
I'd like to try the whole milk Grande. I can only get part skim.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on November 12, 2016, 10:10:21 AM
Thanks Jeff, Norma! Many thanks for your kind words and taking the time to check out my pies.  :)

Jeff that is with the slicing edge of a box grater so it's pretty consistent so long as I use quality mozzarella (like the Saputo) that stays firm. Some of the cheaper retail cheeses seem softer and fall apart while grating.

That's interesting .. I find my Saputo Gold doesn't stay as firm as some of the lower quality mozzarella's I've used.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2016, 02:18:58 PM
That's interesting .. I find my Saputo Gold doesn't stay as firm as some of the lower quality mozzarella's I've used.

You're freezing it, right? I always get it fresh.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on November 12, 2016, 04:41:51 PM
You're freezing it, right? I always get it fresh.

Yeah I freeze it because it comes in 5lb blocks and I need to portion it out.  Are you able to get it in smaller amounts?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2016, 05:04:33 PM
Yeah, I can get it right off the loaf locally, in a chunk or they'll slice it for me; so I haven't had to manage a whole 5 pounds.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 12, 2016, 06:11:39 PM
My Saputo Gold was fairly light and white. Not yellow at all. None of that aged thing. I think Ryan and I had differences on that end. Mine doesn't stay so firm either. I wonder if there are differences like that or is an anomaly?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2016, 06:30:31 PM
That's interesting, the way it stays firmer is one of the big reasons I like it. Most retail mozzarellas fall apart on me on the grater.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 12, 2016, 06:39:20 PM
That's interesting, the way it stays firmer is one of the big reasons I like it. Most retail mozzarellas fall apart on me on the grater.
Same here as far as retail cheeses go. The cheaper RD entries are a better effort, IMHO.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 13, 2016, 10:01:48 PM
Had some family over, good time to make pizza. Pretty good browning, no sugar 1% LDMP. 5 hour RT dough. 12 oz cheese on the classic slice, 9 oz on the Hawaiian. Pizza was good but not great, didn't stay crisp very long. I'm going to try one rack tier higher next bake and see If I can line up the top and bottom browning.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 13, 2016, 10:19:02 PM
Bill (Jersey Pie Boy) posted this slice yesterday that looked quite nice.
I'm not sure I completely understand the melt compared to the pie above. Does this slice have more caramelized cheese (perhaps a part skim blend?) or more sauce?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 14, 2016, 06:25:25 AM
I just wanted to stick my head in the door and mention to anyone who didn't see that pic/ post that I can't take credit for that great NY slice. Only credit for eating it...at Rose's Pizza, lower level Port Authority NYC. They sell 'em like hotcakes. Crowded and busy.


Ryan, your slice looks pretty amazing. I think Rose's is worried...and if I were you, I'd look outside your house. Lines may now be forming for  your slices  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 14, 2016, 07:03:35 AM
In my opinion (I'm interested as you are in hearing additional opinions) Rose's has more sauce, and not alot of cheese. I was surprised when you said you'd add more cheese, but was  intrigued. They could have some part skim, but I'm still not convinced that would be a good thing. I suspect it would help with reducing oil on a reheat.

On the other hand, I've wondered whether with a proper blend, the WM will turn to orange oil that will sit on top of the yellow part skim. Or alternatively, Ive considered  blending 2 whole milk cheeses, one "cheap" cheese to oil off and one "premium" cheese that will keep its texture.

Edit: I will ask Rose's what cheese they use and will try to take pictures and video of them in action. I hope to do it this week. I passed 2 Rose's this morning about 100 feet from each other, but they weren't open yet

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 14, 2016, 07:04:33 AM
Bill (Jersey Pie Boy) posted this slice yesterday that looked quite nice.
I'm not sure I completely understand the melt compared to the pie above. Does this slice have more caramelized cheese (perhaps a part skim blend?) or more sauce?
Nice timing, Ryan. I had been thinking about doing a few bakes with a bit less up top.

My guesses are three things.
#1: Perhaps some part skim in the mix, as you suggest.
#2: A bit more aggressive heat than we get with our home ovens. For me, I would give it an extra blast of heat at the end on the BS or more aggressive broiler action.
#3: Less cheese. My easiest path to those little volcano spots is about 125g - 130g of cheese on a 14" pie.

Perhaps Bill can provide his thoughts as he ate it, I hope, but It appears to me like it received a post-bake drizzle of regular olive oil. Maybe pre-bake, too.

Bill, on a bit of a side note, do you remember if the sauce had little bits in it, or if it was something smooth like the Saporuto stuff?   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 14, 2016, 07:39:05 AM
Ryan, nice looking pies as always. I'm gonna chase you down for a few of your 5-hour dough specs and workflow temperatures, etc.  ;D 

That longer lasting crunch thing is a big motivator for me. Many levels of success.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 14, 2016, 12:05:14 PM
Thanks all, Haha Bill I'm trying. And as Roy says lernin'. Lernin' all this proper pizza science and such  :P

In my opinion (I'm interested as you are in hearing additional opinions) Rose's has more sauce, and not alot of cheese. I was surprised when you said you'd add more cheese, but was  intrigued. They could have some part skim, but I'm still not convinced that would be a good thing. I suspect it would help with reducing oil on a reheat.

On the other hand, I've wondered whether with a proper blend, the WM will turn to orange oil that will sit on top of the yellow part skim. Or alternatively, Ive considered  blending 2 whole milk cheeses, one "cheap" cheese to oil off and one "premium" cheese that will keep its texture.

Edit: I will ask Rose's what cheese they use and will try to take pictures and video of them in action. I hope to do it this week. I passed 2 Rose's this morning about 100 feet from each other, but they weren't open yet

I have 17" pizzas using as low as 5.5 oz and as high as 12 oz now, but none of them really have a melt like that. It looks like it has full coverage but is breaking down more? I'm honestly not sure if I'm looking at sauce through the cheese or if that red/brown layer is caramelized cheese. It looks like pretty full coverage to me, not really a sauce border either. Maybe I need to use less cheese AND get a pretty intense blast of top heat? Break the cheese down more so it will spread more, perhaps? How little mozzarella can you put on a 24" pie to get full coverage? Is there a chance of perhaps a provolone blend (Grand perhaps?) or something contributing here?

Nice timing, Ryan. I had been thinking about doing a few bakes with a bit less up top.

My guesses are three things.
#1: Perhaps some part skim in the mix, as you suggest.
#2: A bit more aggressive heat than we get with our home ovens. For me, I would give it an extra blast of heat at the end on the BS or more aggressive broiler action.
#3: Less cheese. My easiest path to those little volcano spots is about 125g - 130g of cheese on a 14" pie.

Perhaps Bill can provide his thoughts as he ate it, I hope, but It appears to me like it received a post-bake drizzle of regular olive oil. Maybe pre-bake, too.

Bill, on a bit of a side note, do you remember if the sauce had little bits in it, or if it was something smooth like the Saporuto stuff?   

Yeah, I think top heat is certainly a factor. A quick blast of heat at the end may not even be comparable to a steady top heat the entire bake. Especially if baking in a home oven in the lowest rack position. Interesting regarding your thoughts on the olive oil drizzle. I haven't done that in a while.

Here's one of my last 14" with 4 oz of cheese for reference.

Thanks Roy! I need to do some more same day tests with malt and figure out the percentages. I have 2% in this next dough to try out, I'll post more after a few more experiments with LDMP.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 14, 2016, 10:34:42 PM
Yeah, I think top heat is certainly a factor. A quick blast of heat at the end may not even be comparable to a steady top heat the entire bake. Especially if baking in a home oven in the lowest rack position.
I've been tossing around another thought lately. Probably better suited for the Blackstone bakes. I was thinking of doing that blast of heat thing a little earlier just to see what it does. Maybe it jump starts it or something. Not a ton of extra. Maybe sitting it a little harder at the 3-minute mark does something differet because there is still a lot of moisture in there compared to the 5-1/2 minute mark or so.

I've tried a teensy bit higher heat for entire bakes, but the way the BS works, it just dries out the rim. It's much easier to hit t a bit at the end. Maybe even not at all sometimes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 14, 2016, 10:35:25 PM
I liked this sauce, Cento Chefs Cut tomatoes, I strained the purée and set the tomatoes pieces aside while I reduced the purée in a pan with salt and sugar to taste. Sauce down first, Sliced garlic, Saputo gold shredded with the slicing edge of a box grater, reserved "chefs cut tomatoes", reggiano, oregano, and finally a scribble of oil from a squirt bottle. New dough I'm messing with, 2% malt @ 60 lintner - pizza pros is that too much? This pie was very light, I ate at least half the pan... can DMP soften dough?

Does 1% @ 60 lintner = 3% @ 20 lintner? Is it that cut and dry?

What's the best way to get an even undercrust? This pie was really good where it crisped up, but had some soft spots that weren't making contact with the pan to fry the bottom. Do I need to degas more?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: mitchjg on November 14, 2016, 10:39:17 PM

Does 1% @ 60 lintner = 3% @ 20 lintner? Is it that cut and dry?



I believe that is correct. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 14, 2016, 11:31:42 PM
Ryan, Roy,,, Since my tastebuds seem more skilled at  picking up nuances in crusts than cheese, I couldn't tell if there was skim vs whole. Pretty sure I didn't see anyone behind the counter using olive oil..I think the liquid we see  was a feature of  the cheese melt. Since I didn't see this pie being made (but saw others in one of the other Roses when we stopped back later to grab a spinach roll to bring home) I noticed that some pies were made with shredded cheese ( large shreds) and some with sliced...but since they make so many types of pie, I don't know what's used on what. I can tell you that this pie was not heavy at all, and since I prefer pies that aren't heavily cheesed, this one spoke to me. Interesting my wife's spinach and mushroom slice used a lot heavier serving of cheese. Roy, I think the sauce was smooth..I didn't notice any bits of tomato. In =fact, my main impression was that the balance was pretty much perfect. You didn't get  "sauce" or :"cheese" or "crust" Just a really good slice of NY street  pizza (actually below the street  :)  )  I think the idea to use a little less cheese is on the right track.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 07:28:53 AM
I'm gonna do a lighter cheese bake today. Gotta love the inspiration factor of some of these active threads. :)

Bill said the pie was not heavy. Something along the line of a medium thickness factor. I've been thinking of adding enough to make two regular balls and one bigger ball for today's mix.



 

 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 07:50:19 AM
I liked this sauce, Cento Chefs Cut tomatoes, I strained the purée and set the tomatoes pieces aside while I reduced the purée in a pan with salt and sugar to taste. Sauce down first, Sliced garlic, Saputo gold shredded with the slicing edge of a box grater, reserved "chefs cut tomatoes", reggiano, oregano, and finally a scribble of oil from a squirt bottle. New dough I'm messing with, 2% malt @ 60 lintner - pizza pros is that too much? This pie was very light, I ate at least half the pan... can DMP soften dough?

Does 1% @ 60 lintner = 3% @ 20 lintner? Is it that cut and dry?

What's the best way to get an even undercrust? This pie was really good where it crisped up, but had some soft spots that weren't making contact with the pan to fry the bottom. Do I need to degas more?
That looks nice, Ryan. Very nice. Even more inspiration.  8) 8)

How long did it take to reduce the puree? I did a test-sauce that I let go to what I thought was way too long, but was very promising while still bright red. 

I gots no idea on how to get rid of the air pockets that form under the crust and that uneven browning on those pan pies. Some do it, though. Norma maybe? I'd like to know, too.

I'm a one-trick pony and certainly no expert, but I can offer up what I think the LDMP does to "soften" dough. First, with my long term CFs, there's some enzyme that gets released after a few days that eats away the gluten. I certainly proved it to myself time and time again, and then again as recently as this past Winter. Bah!

The second thing that I think it does is both relational and guess. More yummy food for yeast to eat, bigger, badder air pocket for less dense crumb? Third guess is also relational. It browns, one thinks it's done, but it baked less than it would have without the LDMP.

Hopefully the real experts chime in.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 15, 2016, 09:11:31 AM
Roy, by not heavy, I meant heavy with cheese. It was a very thin slice..I don't really know how to quantify TF's but I'd have to think it was around .07 or not much more.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 09:27:22 AM
Thanks, Bill.   8) 8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2016, 10:41:35 AM
That looks nice, Ryan. Very nice. Even more inspiration.  8) 8)

How long did it take to reduce the puree? I did a test-sauce that I let go to what I thought was way too long, but was very promising while still bright red. 

I gots no idea on how to get rid of the air pockets that form under the crust and that uneven browning on those pan pies. Some do it, though. Norma maybe? I'd like to know, too.

I'm a one-trick pony and certainly no expert, but I can offer up what I think the LDMP does to "soften" dough. First, with my long term CFs, there's some enzyme that gets released after a few days that eats away the gluten. I certainly proved it to myself time and time again, and then again as recently as this past Winter. Bah!

The second thing that I think it does is both relational and guess. More yummy food for yeast to eat, bigger, badder air pocket for less dense crumb? Third guess is also relational. It browns, one thinks it's done, but it baked less than it would have without the LDMP.

Hopefully the real experts chime in.

Thanks Roy, I didn't pay much attention to it but I wanna say 30-45 minutes. Since the puree was just to pack the Chefs Cut tomatoes there wasn't as much, about half a 28 oz cans worth I would guess. I didn't turn this to paste and thin it with water like some of my last few, just reduced enough to thicken it and bump up the tomato intensity.

That's exactly what happened with my undercrust, I should have taken pictures. I haven't made a pan pizza in a while, I remember having the same issue before and it kind of worked itself out but I'm not sure what the best solution is. Is definitely messes with the crispness, and can give the appearance of a "soggy" slice, even when the rest of the slice is crunchy and fried.

That seems on par, here's a good bit on malt I just read. Interesting how they note it increases moisture in the crumb. I've tuned the next batch to 1%.
http://www.classofoods.com/page1_4.html

I still find that melt interesting, when I use less cheese I get pockmarks and a more mottled look. Maybe they are using a fairly thick sauce? Like when I was using straight Cento crushed. 


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2016, 12:14:17 PM
Does 1% @ 60 lintner = 3% @ 20 lintner? Is it that cut and dry?
Ryan,

Since Red Star makes both the 60L and 20L products, I decided to do some comparisons. However, I soon learned that Lesaffre/Red Star changed its website and the links I earlier posted (and am now in the process of correcting, if possible) no longer worked. So, I found the Wayback Machine versions for the inoperative Red Star links, as follows:

20L: http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20

60L: http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60

If you compare the descriptions and details of the two products, you will see that they are about the same, but for the sequence of the ingredients.

I also tried to use the above links to see the more detailed specs, in the pdf documents, but those links are also no longer operative. And when I tried finding the Wayback Machine versions, all I got was a list of over 59 URLs to go through, none of which appeared to be relevant. So, I may have to do some more work on this.

However, until I am able to find the pdf spec documents, if only to correct them in other places where I may have cited them, I'd like to direct your attention to the general product spec sheet that I was able to find at http://web.archive.org/web/20160108232942/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/Product%20Sheet.pdf, where you will see that the Red Star 20L is "ideal for long fermentation processes, like ciabatta" and that the Red Star 60L is "for French bread, bolillo and sponges".

I think Mitch is right but if only to satisfy myself, I'd like to find the Red Star pdf spec sheets to see if they shed any light on the question you posed.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2016, 12:31:00 PM
Ryan,

After my last post, I went directly to the Lesaffre/Red Star website to see if I could find the detailed pdf spec sheets for the 20L and 60L products. It appears that the only pdf spec sheets are the ones they call the Point of Sale sheets. The more detailed and informative pdf documents are no longer accessible at the above website, and perhaps have to be requested from the company if they are still available.

For the record, these are the current Point of Sale sheets for the 20L and 60L products:

20L: http://lesaffreyeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dry-Malt-20_POS.pdf

60L: http://lesaffreyeast.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Dry-Malt-60_POS.pdf

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
Ryan,

Since Red Star makes both the 60L and 20L products, I decided to do some comparisons. However, I soon learned that Lasaffre/Red Star changed its website and the links I earlier posted (and am now in the process of correcting, if possible) no longer worked. So, I found the Wayback Machine versions for the inoperative Red Star links, as follows:

20L: http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20

60L: http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60

If you compare the descriptions and details of the two products, you will see that they are about the same, but for the sequence of the ingredients.

I also tried to use the above links to see the more detailed specs, in the pdf documents, but those links are also no longer operative. And when I tried finding the Wayback Machine versions, all I got was a list of over 59 URLs to go through, none of which appeared to be relevant. So, I may have to do some more work on this.

However, until I am able to find the pdf spec documents, if only to correct them in other places where I may have cited them, I'd like to direct your attention to the general product spec sheet that I was able to find at http://web.archive.org/web/20160108232942/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/Product%20Sheet.pdf, where you will see that the Red Star 20L is "ideal for long fermentation processes, like ciabatta" and that the Red Star 60L is "for French bread, bolillo and sponges".

I think Mitch is right but if only to satisfy myself, I'd like to find the Red Star pdf spec sheets to see if they shed any light on the question you posed.

Peter

Peter,

What I find most interesting from the link you provided is the same suggested usage level on both products. .5-5% on the 20 and 60 Lintner malts. I guess the question is what does Red Star consider a long fermentation? I was thinking perhaps I went too high, but the 5% mark is reassuring that there is some wiggle room.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2016, 05:20:30 PM
More experiments from the pie barn.
52% hydration dough made in the food processor. Sauce was blended "Italian style stewed tomatoes," Parmesan, oregano, Saputo mozzarella, and basil.

Baked for 12 min @ 500

Ironically this melt looks closer to Bills slice from Rose's than my NY efforts.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 05:21:33 PM
Thanks Roy, I didn't pay much attention to it but I wanna say 30-45 minutes. Since the puree was just to pack the Chefs Cut tomatoes there wasn't as much, about half a 28 oz cans worth I would guess. I didn't turn this to paste and thin it with water like some of my last few, just reduced enough to thicken it and bump up the tomato intensity.

That's exactly what happened with my undercrust, I should have taken pictures. I haven't made a pan pizza in a while, I remember having the same issue before and it kind of worked itself out but I'm not sure what the best solution is. Is definitely messes with the crispness, and can give the appearance of a "soggy" slice, even when the rest of the slice is crunchy and fried.

That seems on par, here's a good bit on malt I just read. Interesting how they note it increases moisture in the crumb. I've tuned the next batch to 1%.
http://www.classofoods.com/page1_4.html

I still find that melt interesting, when I use less cheese I get pockmarks and a more mottled look. Maybe they are using a fairly thick sauce? Like when I was using straight Cento crushed.
I tried a cooked sauce last week that I let go way too long. It was awesome at 90 minutes, but was nasty an hour later. I'm gonna try it again. 30-45 minutes sounds like it fits.

Thanks for the link to the article.

I thought your 4oz cheese on the 14-incher looked good. I certainly plenty today at 125g, which is only 12 grams higher than that. I'll have to try a lower amount in the next bake or two.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 15, 2016, 05:22:30 PM
Very, very cool and it looks super yummy - really nice work on that one Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
More experiments from the pie barn.
52% hydration dough made in the food processor. Sauce was blended "Italian style stewed tomatoes," Parmesan, oregano, Saputo mozzarella, and basil.

Baked for 12 min @ 500

Ironically this melt looks closer to Bills slice from Rose's than my NY efforts.
Is that your normal cheese amount?

How was that to eat? I'm trying to recall if I've ever had anything along that line.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 15, 2016, 05:34:21 PM
Very, very cool and it looks super yummy - really nice work on that one Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
^^^
I agree with Norm, btw. that does look pretty darned impressive. I could have gotten anything that even without some sort of machine assistance.  :-[
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2016, 06:02:19 PM
I tried a cooked sauce last week that I let go way too long. It was awesome at 90 minutes, but was nasty an hour later. I'm gonna try it again. 30-45 minutes sounds like it fits.

Thanks for the link to the article.

I thought your 4oz cheese on the 14-incher looked good. I certainly plenty today at 125g, which is only 12 grams higher than that. I'll have to try a lower amount in the next bake or two.

Yeah, I reduced this one quicker. When I first started doing it I made sure to keep the temp as low as possible, but it takes much longer to reduce that way so I'm not sure any flavor is really "preserved" by not turning it up a little hotter since it would otherwise be on the stove longer.

Is that your normal cheese amount?

How was that to eat? I'm trying to recall if I've ever had anything along that line.

I thought about weighing it but decided to just wing it and grate directly over the pie. It seemed less than 8 ounces though. It had a nice crispness to it, more cracker like as you get closer to the edge with a resounding "crunch." Quick dough just a couple hours, I'm going to make another one and let it spend some time in the refrigerator and see how that turn out.

Very, very cool and it looks super yummy - really nice work on that one Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

Many thanks, Norm!

^^^
I agree with Norm, btw. that does look pretty darned impressive. I could have gotten anything that even without some sort of machine assistance.  :-[

Thanks Roy, I used a rolling pin with a little knuckle stretching to open it, it wasn't too bad.  I know you could open one. I think because it was a lower hydration dough that it opened pretty evenly, as the dough is more more resistant to running away from you.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 15, 2016, 08:23:20 PM
Nice pan pies Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 16, 2016, 12:02:54 PM
Nice pan pies Ryan!

Thanks Matt, cheers  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 04:30:23 PM
slice test - lean dough, Muir glen whole peeled + salt, sliced Saputo mozzarella.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HansB on November 19, 2016, 05:35:43 PM
They look like thin slices. What setting was used. I have been having it sliced at .75 on the grocery store slicer.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 05:51:50 PM
They look like thin slices. What setting was used. I have been having it sliced at .75 on the grocery store slicer.


I'm not sure, I'll find out next time, I just asked to have it sliced pretty thin. I was thinking of the pizza town video. It definitely "stretches" the cheese, pretty solid coverage while saving a few ounces.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 19, 2016, 05:52:31 PM
Ryan, that looks sweet! Nice thin slice style there. I want some. It's been over 20 hours ..... 

 :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Ovenray on November 19, 2016, 05:56:28 PM
The perfect roundness of your discs combined with such an even surface is almost offensive opposite mine :-D and I can only wonder how much pies it took you get to that level of dough-opening/shaping.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 06:16:39 PM
Ryan, that looks sweet! Nice thin slice style there. I want some. It's been over 20 hours ..... 

 :drool: :drool:

Thanks Roy, the sauce didn't do it for me though. I think I under salted the tomato sauce, but maybe the tomatoes just weren't that great? Like I can't quite gauge the translation of uncooked tomato into finished pizza sauce sometimes. Shaved a few minutes off my bake time, brought the false ceiling back in, needs some more adjustments though. Gonna keep working on these thin pies though, I know once I nail it they will really have potential. I've been going through Serious Eats "Daily Slice" archives, compiling ideas on the slices that I think look really great, I'm really attracted to the super-thin street slice style. I think launching direct to stone is really important for the screaming thin street slice style, to get a fast enough bake and boil beneath to seal the dough from toppings by that initial crisp undercrust layer. My screen is bare too, perhaps I need to season it like Tom Lehmann is always mentioning... my pan pizza/focaccia would not cook at all until I seasoned the pan, so I should take it more seriously. I need to try more tests putting the screen just on the lowest rack instead of on the stone, I feel like I remember reading on here for some the stone was insulating the screen and was impeding the cooking, and they were actually getting a better bake transferring to stone later in the bake. MORE TESTS NECESSARY.  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 06:23:42 PM
The perfect roundness of your discs combined with such an even surface is almost offensive opposite mine :-D and I can only wonder how much pies it took you get to that level of dough-opening/shaping.

Thanks Ray, you're too kind! But these are launching on screen so the roundness comes easy, I definitely can't take credit there since I don't have to deal with launch issues at all that way. I do pretty well at shaping a pretty thin skin though... I actually tossed this one!  :-[ Trying to learn that art. I just passed my 2 year anniversary of making pizza, but have definitely gotten much more "into it" this past year.

- My first pie!  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: the1mu on November 19, 2016, 06:59:25 PM
That's an impressive first pie. Mine was whiter and blander than all get out and I thought it was amazing at the time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 19, 2016, 07:08:35 PM
Thanks Ray, you're too kind! But these are launching on screen so the roundness comes easy, I definitely can't take credit there since I don't have to deal with launch issues at all that way. I do pretty well at shaping a pretty thin skin though... I actually tossed this one!  :-[ Trying to learn that art. I just passed my 2 year anniversary of making pizza, but have definitely gotten much more "into it" this past year.

- My first pie!  :-D
I've tossed a few. My last CF with a bunch of LDMP. 6-months ago, or so. Most of the one with the bad yeast. One with Ollie pepperoni none of us could stomach. Some failed SD attempts last year. I got lucky with a few initial CF batches then it all went to crap. Cost me $1200. Broke a tooth. Oh, and my first Sicillian. To your point of seasoning the pan. Massive improvement, though the second one was more of an attempt to use the bad yeast dough and to try out some idea in my head for a Di Fara's square sauce.

If you have some tomatoes that are kind of blah, try something out. You will get a slight hint of citrus, but if you ignore that, you'll taste a big brightness. Adjust accordingly. For 120g of sauce, add 1/4 tsp lemon juice. It will wake up some bland tomatoes. I'll use 1-32nds tsp of Citric Acid from time to time now. I'm also working on a theory about viscosity and reaching a boiling point.

Ryan, I cannot begin to thank you enough for trading ideas and thoughts back and forth. I really appreciate it a lot. Inspirational.   8) 8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 19, 2016, 07:22:41 PM
Thanks Roy, the sauce didn't do it for me though. I think I under salted the tomato sauce, but maybe the tomatoes just weren't that great? Like I can't quite gauge the translation of uncooked tomato into finished pizza sauce sometimes. Shaved a few minutes off my bake time, brought the false ceiling back in, needs some more adjustments though. Gonna keep working on these thin pies though, I know once I nail it they will really have potential. I've been going through Serious Eats "Daily Slice" archives, compiling ideas on the slices that I think look really great, I'm really attracted to the super-thin street slice style. I think launching direct to stone is really important for the screaming thin street slice style, to get a fast enough bake and boil beneath to seal the dough from toppings by that initial crisp undercrust layer. My screen is bare too, perhaps I need to season it like Tom Lehmann is always mentioning... my pan pizza/focaccia would not cook at all until I seasoned the pan, so I should take it more seriously. I need to try more tests putting the screen just on the lowest rack instead of on the stone, I feel like I remember reading on here for some the stone was insulating the screen and was impeding the cooking, and they were actually getting a better bake transferring to stone later in the bake. MORE TESTS NECESSARY.  ;D
I had no clue that a screen needed to be seasoned. No idea at all.

On screens. About 18 years ago there was this mall in town that was still small and charming. Food court had some chain joints, but not all. One local guy had a NY style thing going. Not great, but not bad. Much better than national stuff. They used deck ovens. The built these pies on screens, but not standard screens. These things looked like they were the same screen as the vinyl window screens for the house. The pie wasn't sitting any higher than that extremely thin layer off the brick. they had a very nice crust as I recall. Certainly suitable for the transplanted Yankee who had limited NY joints in town. I could detect that undeniable taste I was missing in a bite or two every time I went.

Anyhow, I wish I could find some of these screens. I looked and looked and looked. I think I asked about them here once. The mall got rebuilt and massively expanded. No idea where that dude went. Some things I'll never know, I guess. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 07:30:32 PM
That's an impressive first pie. Mine was whiter and blander than all get out and I thought it was amazing at the time.

I quickly graduated to Bobby Flay's dough recipe!   >:D

I've tossed a few. My last CF with a bunch of LDMP. 6-months ago, or so. Most of the one with the bad yeast. One with Ollie pepperoni none of us could stomach. Some failed SD attempts last year. I got lucky with a few initial CF batches then it all went to crap. Cost me $1200. Broke a tooth. Oh, and my first Sicillian. To your point of seasoning the pan. Massive improvement, though the second one was more of an attempt to use the bad yeast dough and to try out some idea in my head for a Di Fara's square sauce.

If you have some tomatoes that are kind of blah, try something out. You will get a slight hint of citrus, but if you ignore that, you'll taste a big brightness. Adjust accordingly. For 120g of sauce, add 1/4 tsp lemon juice. It will wake up some bland tomatoes. I'll use 1-32nds tsp of Citric Acid from time to time now. I'm also working on a theory about viscosity and reaching a boiling point.

Ryan, I cannot begin to thank you enough for trading ideas and thoughts back and forth. I really appreciate it a lot. Inspirational.   8) 8)

Haha! I meant toss, as in, throw it in the air - not the trash  :-D last pie that landed there was the one covered with Locatelli, I couldn't eat it. I don't know, something was way strange about it. I'll try that with the next bland tomato, I'm also of thinking of upping the sugar. I remember a lot of sweeter pizza sauces growing up. Always trying to balance that sweet & zesty tomato flavor that seems somewhat elusive. What about adding coca cola? Have I gone off the deep end?

When was the last time you made a Sicilian? I really enjoy them

Yes! Thank you; This open source pizza project is great, it definitely helps me make better pizzas and is reassuring to get some other opinions; my taste testers are more of a yay/nay crowd and not critical enough to really pinpoint any of the changes I make.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 19, 2016, 07:46:49 PM
 :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D  Tossed, or tossed.  ;D 

Yeah, that Locatelli is strong. I've done one of them. One.

I thought sugar would have been part of that, too. There's more of a natural sweetness to it than I get with sugar. It's almost like the tomato didn't release it sometimes. Hard to describe. I hear what you are saying. It really digs it's way into the crust when it works. A nice  - this is so cool, I get to use the big word I know  -   It's a nice confluence of flavors.   :D

so, on the pie you posted from your bake today. I see that and I imagine a very tender crust with no dryness. My pies can be susceptible to dryness. Long term CF, long bakes, etc. It happens. I get cranky when my flavor goes away. It look like yours had that in spades.   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 08:08:26 PM
Yeah, this pie was definitely tender. 60% hydration, since I didn't use oil I added a few more points of water to make sure it didn't dry out, but with the faster bake it wasn't necessary. Whipping up a two pie batch at 56% right now to nest away in the fridge for a while.

My store just got a restock of DiNapoli whole peeled, which I have had really good luck with in the past. Picked a few up today. For some reason I'm wanting to make a white pie though; perhaps within the next bake or so.

I really dig this slice Bill (JPB) posted a few months back. Even my 17" slices seem small compared to that.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 19, 2016, 09:28:44 PM
Is your 56% hydration batch you mixed up the total effective hydration, or is it 56% plus some oil?

That shot Bill posted looks like one of those NJ Boardwalk styles. I've done a couple, but I'm sure to no justice. One could do worse than to salvage a skin that's gotten way to skimpy of girth by doing NJ style. It gives a bit more time for the crunch layer to become defined before getting hit with pizza juices. I used to put one very, very thin slice of moz down in the direct center before I solved my losing crunch too soon and soaking through problem. Haven't done it for months now. I probably should have a few times.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2016, 09:54:54 PM
slice test - lean dough, Muir glen whole peeled + salt, sliced Saputo mozzarella.

Nice melt! Would you consider breaking the cheese slices into thirds or halves? I think that would be closer to Pizza Town. You imply that you want full coverage, but having some gaps pre-bake may help the sauce and cheese mingle if you're after that.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 10:14:56 PM
Nice melt! Would you consider breaking the cheese slices into thirds or halves? I think that would be closer to Pizza Town. You imply that you want full coverage, but having some gaps pre-bake may help the sauce and cheese mingle if you're after that.

Yeah, I watched the video right after, I just wasn't thinking about it during the bake. I think you have to do it that way to get more sauce to peak through, otherwise the melt doesn't match. I got a block of Saputo unsliced too to try a Vito's style diced melt.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2016, 10:29:18 PM
Is your 56% hydration batch you mixed up the total effective hydration, or is it 56% plus some oil?

That shot Bill posted looks like one of those NJ Boardwalk styles. I've done a couple, but I'm sure to no justice. One could do worse than to salvage a skin that's gotten way to skimpy of girth by doing NJ style. It gives a bit more time for the crunch layer to become defined before getting hit with pizza juices. I used to put one very, very thin slice of moz down in the direct center before I solved my losing crunch too soon and soaking through problem. Haven't done it for months now. I probably should have a few times.

1% oil. I have to be careful balancing thin TF, oil percent, and bread flour; you can take all the chew out I've noticed. Probably where high gluten flour comes in; maybe I will get another bag. Yeah, boardwalk from Maruca's. I think it looks great.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Ovenray on November 20, 2016, 03:09:17 AM
What about adding coca cola? Have I gone off the deep end?

I always add a Coke next to my pizza, cant imagine adding it to the pie itself though (you might be on to something :P ).
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 20, 2016, 11:38:39 AM
Nice melt! Would you consider breaking the cheese slices into thirds or halves? I think that would be closer to Pizza Town. You imply that you want full coverage, but having some gaps pre-bake may help the sauce and cheese mingle if you're after that.

The economic factor is interesting to me... there is probably only 5 or 6 oz of cheese on an 18" pie too. $12 for a whole pie. Probably under $1 to make.

I always add a Coke next to my pizza, cant imagine adding it to the pie itself though (you might be on to something :P ).

I'm thinking it might add a sweet/acid hit to sauce but I could be way off. I've had it in barbecue sauce which isn't really want I want my pizza to taste like, but maybe a drop or two would add zest & bite? Phosphoric acid?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Ovenray on November 20, 2016, 01:16:08 PM
I'm thinking it might add a sweet/acid hit to sauce but I could be way off. I've had it in barbecue sauce which isn't really want I want my pizza to taste like, but maybe a drop or two would add zest & bite? Phosphoric acid?

If your serious about the addition of an acidic component and some sweetness I would rather add 'citric acid' and some form of sugar instead of a softdrink like cola, the latter which also adds a coloring agent and quite a few other (perhaps unwanted) ingredients.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 20, 2016, 01:40:58 PM
Yeah, I guess I was thinking they already have that sweet/acid balance figured out. The cola has a very unique full mouthfeel zesty-ness. I think the sauce could burn depending on temperature, but I don't think it would take anymore than a teaspoon? I wouldn't want to taste Coke like a Cola BBQ sauce, but it could impart an interest background note maybe. Especially Coca Cola which is more zippy than than other colas like Hansens, which has a solid vanilla edge. I've read about people trying to make a sweet & zesty sauce with vinegar, citric acid, lemon juice, and others. Here's an interesting comment from Petef from his thread with a zesty pizza sauce recipe. Pete is adding vinegar (acetic acid) I wonder if he ever thought to try cola.



Adding the vinegar is another issue. Basically, I was trying to reproduce that tangy taste that many of the NJ pizzeria pizzas have. It's hard to explain, but I know it's right when I detect the acidity on the roof of my mouth.  It the kind of taste that makes me crave a Coca Cola. Maybe that's why they developed it, to sell more drinks.  Whatever the reason, that's the target pizza sauce I'm after with this recipe.

---pete---
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 20, 2016, 03:08:46 PM
The citric acid thing is where my comment about lemon juice. It's a great test to help determine if you should get some citric acid. Remember, the tomatoes come packed with some already. If the tomatoes lose their zing a day or two after being opened, Citric acid will help bring the zing back up.

Alternatively, from a different angle, a very small amount of cayenne could be interesting. Much smaller amount than it would take to make a sauce hot. Just like with the citric acid, it's goal is to help the flavor break through. It's on my list of things to try.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Ovenray on November 20, 2016, 03:32:52 PM
Thats what I love about a Margherita; the fresh tomato paste with a small amount of salt and pepper, in combination with fresh mozz, some basil leafs and again some seasalt and olive oil gives that perfect zing to it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 20, 2016, 04:48:46 PM
Here's the results of seasoning with a bit of SunCoco oil rubbed on and baked at 450 for two 20 minute sessions.

Two pies later tonight, DiNapoli tomatoes - these taste quite good out of the can. Tasted real nice with a little salt and pepper and fresh basil, the garlic oil I added might have ruined the fresh tomato hit... I guess we'll see what happens.

I got some pretty nice Margherita type pies with my old oven, this new one struggles to get a pie out in under 4 minutes though, much less 2. This oven is a candidate for steel.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 20, 2016, 11:21:35 PM
Tonight's test -
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 20, 2016, 11:47:23 PM
Very nice, Ryan  . That crumb on your rectangle pie is downright impressive. Enviable I am.

I kind of lost track on what the round pie's experiment was tonight. Sometimes our tests sort of evolve as the day putters along.  ;D   What'd you do with these?

That was a pretty interesting crunch line. Mine always cracks the biggest out at the edge. How you think that happened a few inches in on yours?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 21, 2016, 12:14:17 AM
Very nice, Ryan  . That crumb on your rectangle pie is downright impressive. Enviable I am.

I kind of lost track on what the round pie's experiment was tonight. Sometimes our tests sort of evolve as the day putters along.  ;D   What'd you do with these?

That was a pretty interesting crunch line. Mine always cracks the biggest out at the edge. How you think that happened a few inches in on yours?

Roy

Thanks Roy, testing too many things at once, as always  ;D
This was a faster bake, right around 6 minutes. 3 on screen, bottom rack; 3 on stone with broiler on the middle rack. The inward crack is where the stone ends, the rest is overhang. 17" pie on a 15" stone. That's why I'd like to get a 16" square stone to minimize overhang. I also used smaller torn pieces of the sliced mozzarella for more open coverage. 

My squares came out a little thick and could have used more sauce. Need some more tinkering there for sure! A whole 14 oz can wasn't enough sauce for that pan. Too bad I can't get a decent picture once the sun goes down. Everything always looks yellow in here, but the melt on these was pretty nice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 21, 2016, 06:36:06 AM
Those look great, Ryan..I only wis I could taste them!


Roy..the slice Ryan pasted a few back...Definitely NJ boardwalk..Maruca's in Seaside Heights. If you look just below the diagonal wood railing on frame right, you'll see a sandy beach.  It was a 24 inch pie..huge. This was my son's 2nd slice. One did it for for me  :)  I've been a fan of their slices before I got into making pizza myself. The twin brothers who own the shop were very encouraging and helpful when I asked them questions early on. They told me I needed  HG. You can imagine the fun I had trying to find that in grocery stores..where GFree is the order of the day
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 21, 2016, 08:51:42 AM
Speaking of bigger pies, I goofed big time. I mixed my batch the other night and totally spaced out. I didn't make enough to try one larger ball for a 16" pie.  I didn't even think about it until the next day. I probably will not mix again until at least Wednesday. More like Friday.

Ryan, I forgot to ask you if you solved the big air pocket below the crust problem we were talking about o the rectangle pie? (Was that Sicilian, or grandma?)

Bill, thanks for the intel on the slice. Looks mighty fine. I've lurched through the NJ thread more than a time or two. Lots of inspiring stuff in there.  8)

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 21, 2016, 09:55:04 AM
Speaking of bigger pies, I goofed big time. I mixed my batch the other night and totally spaced out. I didn't make enough to try one larger ball for a 16" pie.  I didn't even think about it until the next day. I probably will not mix again until at least Wednesday. More like Friday.

Ryan, I forgot to ask you if you solved the big air pocket below the crust problem we were talking about o the rectangle pie? (Was that Sicilian, or grandma?)

Bill, thanks for the intel on the slice. Looks mighty fine. I've lurched through the NJ thread more than a time or two. Lots of inspiring stuff in there.  8)

16" is a real nice size! I've been thinking of making some 14" to launch direct to stone to compare with the screen launched version.

I haven't had the big air pockets since, not really sure what I've done different except maybe a more thorough degas. L&B actually sheets their dough so I imagine that really keeps the undercrust even. The Sicilian vs Grandma is another one I still don't completely understand. Matt made some good comparisons here in the Post a Pic of Your Pie thread; but I think the takeaway is it's mostly thinner and proofed for less time during the final rise in the pan. I have 3 different pans I use with the same size dough ball that each give me a different TF.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 21, 2016, 12:43:52 PM
Ryan, you are a beast. (that's a good thing)  Our sauce discussions and the reminders to keep simple - man. Add some stuff to the top of the sauce. See the world. Remove timing difficulties as a variable. I repeat what I said earlier about being a great sounding board for inspiration. I'll post more in my thread.

And it's so much more repeatable, too.  8) 8) 8)

Thanks so much!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 21, 2016, 04:45:39 PM
I like the look of this pie alot. Particularly how the sauce came through.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 21, 2016, 05:40:29 PM
Ryan, you are a beast. (that's a good thing)  Our sauce discussions and the reminders to keep simple - man. Add some stuff to the top of the sauce. See the world. Remove timing difficulties as a variable. I repeat what I said earlier about being a great sounding board for inspiration. I'll post more in my thread.

And it's so much more repeatable, too.  8) 8) 8)

Thanks so much!!!

Glad it worked for you Roy!  :chef:
Long Live Pizza!


I like the look of this pie alot. Particularly how the sauce came through.


Thanks Matt, I used a pretty thin sauce with thin torn deli slices, DiNapoli whole peeled. I'm going to try a food processor grate next. Something like this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJha8nRCKbs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJha8nRCKbs)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 21, 2016, 07:49:34 PM
That cheese amount looks familiar. I almost always did more before I started to weigh. Missed my tomato cheese bubble thing a lot because of it.

Very cool video, Ryan. Thanks for posting it. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 21, 2016, 08:08:51 PM
...
Very cool video, Ryan. Thanks for posting it.

Agreed.  I like the video.  Pretty good amount of sauce and cheese there.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 21, 2016, 11:25:56 PM
This is 7 oz Saputo from the food processor disc. Not quite diced like Vito's but a finer grate than my box grater. Also went up a rack tier. Gonna go up another rack to try and get more radiant top heat instead of broiler top heat. KABF + 2% VWG, the extra chew was nice with a dough this thin. The Muir Glen San Marzano style with basil/garlic did not taste very good out of the can. They definitely bottlenecked this pie , but I didn't feel like going to the store or cracking a #10 can right now so I doctored them up with a good bit of sugar and went with it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 22, 2016, 06:22:49 AM
Ryan, This looks very good and very authentic. Thanks for elaborating on the chew difference. Do you know how much the tomatoes weighed that went onto the pie?

How about the taste aspect of KABF and VWG? Some say it tastes like cardboard. I did not have this experience. It has been a while since I've tried it, though.

Roy 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 22, 2016, 10:15:38 AM
Ryan, This looks very good and very authentic. Thanks for elaborating on the chew difference. Do you know how much the tomatoes weighed that went onto the pie?

How about the taste aspect of KABF and VWG? Some say it tastes like cardboard. I did not have this experience. It has been a while since I've tried it, though.

Roy

Roy,
I need to try it more times to say for sure, this was a short 5 hour dough. The last few times I used it I thought VWG had a peculiar taste, but it's probably just the smell that I'm associating with it. I used .5% 60L malt this time sort of thinking if it does have a taste this might help. Crust wasn't phenomenal in the flavor department though but I'm chalking that down to the relatively short fermentation time for now, and the texture was pretty nice. Had a crisper, longer lasting crunch layer on the bottom than the last few pies and I liked the chew with these thin slices, it helps make them more "substantial"

Not sure on the sauce weight, I haven't weighed sauce since my 14" pies, mostly because I've been messing with sauce texture and consistency a lot.  I need to weigh what my big ladle holds. Sauce texture on this was really nice though, I used the food processor instead of the blender.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 22, 2016, 03:38:19 PM
Roy,
I need to try it more times to say for sure, this was a short 5 hour dough. The last few times I used it I thought VWG had a peculiar taste, but it's probably just the smell that I'm associating with it. I used .5% 60L malt this time sort of thinking if it does have a taste this might help. Crust wasn't phenomenal in the flavor department though but I'm chalking that down to the relatively short fermentation time for now, and the texture was pretty nice. Had a crisper, longer lasting crunch layer on the bottom than the last few pies and I liked the chew with these thin slices, it helps make them more "substantial"

Not sure on the sauce weight, I haven't weighed sauce since my 14" pies, mostly because I've been messing with sauce texture and consistency a lot.  I need to weigh what my big ladle holds. Sauce texture on this was really nice though, I used the food processor instead of the blender.
Well, they say bouquet is part of the tasting experience. Seems reasonable that one could trace a smell back to an element of the taste and dislike it. Also sounds like a  trend.

Is this the LDMP that we both bought, or is something different?

Sounds like an overall positive test. A peculiar taste can overpower a different taste element. It may have everything in place that it needs. Is this the exact same mix to another mix done very recently, with the only difference being the VWG?   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 22, 2016, 04:08:40 PM
Well, they say bouquet is part of the tasting experience. Seems reasonable that one could trace a smell back to an element of the taste and dislike it. Also sounds like a  trend.

Is this the LDMP that we both bought, or is something different?

Sounds like an overall positive test. A peculiar taste can overpower a different taste element. It may have everything in place that it needs. Is this the exact same mix to another mix done very recently, with the only difference being the VWG?   

Yeah, but I'm not sure if it carries over after it's baked. Just that the VWG has a smell in its raw state, at least my batch of Bobs Red Mill does. Maybe Peter or someone else who has experimented with it will chime in if they noticed anything. I know Peter has a lot of VWG experience from his dough cloning.

I have another dough ball in the fridge so I'll be checking to see if there is any off taste.
Yes, Hoosier Hill 60L DMP. It's a pretty similar mix, but not completely. My current NY formula has sugar and I pulled it out to try and slow the bottom down. Also TF is slightly reduced from .075 to .07 and I raised water a point to hydrate the VWG. From the Vito's video my guess is their hydration is right about 60% from the extensibility he gets when opening the dough. My dough takes a little more effort to open judging by the video.

Current NY formula

Flour (100%): 300.61 g  |  10.6 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (56%): 168.34 g  |  5.94 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.25%): 0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (2.1%): 6.31 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Oil (1.5%): 4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%): 4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Total (161.35%):   485.03 g | 17.11 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.075375

Test Formula

Flour (100%): 557.28 g  |  19.66 oz | 1.23 lbs
Water (57%): 317.65 g  |  11.2 oz | 0.7 lbs
IDY (.27%): 1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (2%): 11.15 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Olive Oil (1.01%): 5.63 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Vital Wheat Gluten (2%): 11.15 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 4.03 tsp | 1.34 tbsp
Diastatic Malt Powder (.51%): 2.84 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.14 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Total (162.79%):   907.2 g | 32 oz | 2 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs


I didn't have any leftover slices so I'm not sure if my oil percentage needs adjustment or not. I think I have to be careful to not tenderize such a thin pie too much though. My previous VWG tests were with a 20 oz dough ball. I think it was a good test, learned some things from it. I probably won't use VWG that much though, I'll likely get another bag of La Romanella high gluten, but that means storing 25 lbs. That could tempt me to make pizzas excessively......  ::)

Got a good comment last night though, "I never thought I would love cheese pizza" - I'm converting people to the slice!  :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on November 22, 2016, 04:45:00 PM
Yeah, but I'm not sure if it carries over after it's baked. Just that the VWG has a smell in its raw state, at least my batch of Bobs Red Mill does. Maybe Peter or someone else who has experimented with it will chime in if they noticed anything. I know Peter has a lot of VWG experience from his dough cloning.
Ryan,

Years before I ever tried VWG, I read a lot of Tom Lehmann's posts at the PMQ Think Tank where he advised professionals who visited that forum to supplement various flours with VWG in order to increase the protein content. In some cases, as with certain foreign flours that were low on protein, supplementation with VWG was essentially the only option for pizza making. So, in my case, unlike some members on the forum, I did not view VWG to be an evil that cried for elimination from the planet. To me, it was just another ingredient that had a role to play in pizza making, even if only occasionally and for limited purposes and applications. In my case, I used VWG in several of my experiments, including clone experiments, in order to increase the protein content of a given flour--almost always bread flour--in order to raise the protein content of that flour by a percent or so. I did not use VWG to increase the protein content of all purpose flour to say, a high gluten flour level, because that was too big a leap and was not a productive use of the VWG (member November researched this point). But I did try raising the protein content of all purpose flour to the bread flour level.

Unlike many members of the forum, I did not find VWG to impart an unappealing flavor to the finished crust. But, on several occasions, I advised the members to use flours with the inherent desirable protein content as much as possible since it would most likely be better than a flour supplemented with VWG simply because VWG, as a dried protein, is not identical to the native protein in flour.

My best advice is to try VWG if only to get a better understanding of the role that it can play in dough making. If it doesn't pass the taste test, or some other subjective test, then don't use it, or reserve it for bread making (like whole wheat breads) or some other similar application.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 22, 2016, 06:27:44 PM

My best advice is to try VWG if only to get a better understanding of the role that it can play in dough making. If it doesn't pass the taste test, or some other subjective test, then don't use it, or reserve it for bread making (like whole wheat breads) or some other similar application.

Peter

Thanks Peter,

I understand it much better after testing with this thin .07 dough. From the way it opened and stretched to the increased chew. A good lesson!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 22, 2016, 06:52:43 PM
I didn't know it had a bad smell when the dough was in a raw state. It takes a while for things to register sometime. The only one I tried way back when was Hodgson Mill. No negatives, but I was also not making pies anywhere near as good as I am these days. I may find out a month from now.

My dough takes longer to open as well, but it's by design. I am not good enough at stretching to open a quick one evenly.

A good cheese slice is one of those great, "simple" foods. A definite simple pleasures qualifier.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 23, 2016, 04:39:38 PM
I just smelled the Bobs Red Mill VWG again, it's not as bad as I was making it out to be. It smells kind of like a mix between whole wheat or rye flour, but they get it from white flour, so I was expecting it to smell like white flour I guess.

Matt, how much are you paying for Cento DOP SM? You suggested those recently, I just saw them at Albertsons. - $5.69 does that sound about right?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 23, 2016, 05:41:18 PM
Sounds high.  I thought Cento SM was 4 and change, but my wife does the shopping and said they are 3 and change.

As a side note, these are no longer DOP (changed maybe 5 years ago). I suspect the tomatoes are the same and that they did the want to pay for certification. No big deal but it annoys me that they label them as "certified".
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 23, 2016, 06:11:11 PM
You're right, I was thinking they said DOP but they are labeled Certified as you say. I'll keep my eyes out and see if they go on sale, sometimes they blow out the Carmelina's there for a decent price.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 25, 2016, 01:11:06 PM
Interesting, pulled these doughs and one dough deflated, cold proofed in the same location in the fridge.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 25, 2016, 01:22:55 PM
Oh wow! I don't think I've ever seen one do that. Same batch and everything?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 25, 2016, 01:51:41 PM
Mine are never identical.....It'll be so nteresting to see how they bake up
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 25, 2016, 06:57:54 PM
Whoops!
7+1 oz Mozzarella / Asiago
7/11 tomatoes
Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni

Surprisingly both doughs baked up fine, the Vito's style stretch has plenty of degassing and seemed to make this slightly over proofed dough work fine.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 25, 2016, 07:44:03 PM
You are locked in Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on November 25, 2016, 08:07:59 PM
Looks delicious Ryan! I see a lot of Norma's inspiration and influence! Always a good thing!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 25, 2016, 08:59:26 PM
Nice!!!!   I want me some of that pepperoni pie right now.  :drool:

That's cool that the flattened dough ball worked out. Aside from that difference, how'd you like the contrast between the two? I've never done back to back from same day same batch before.
You are locked in Ryan!

^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2016, 09:39:16 PM
Whoops!
7+1 oz Mozzarella / Asiago
7/11 tomatoes
Dietz & Watson stick pepperoni

Surprisingly both doughs baked up fine, the Vito's style stretch has plenty of degassing and seemed to make this slightly over proofed dough work fine.

Ryan,

Great looking pizzas!    :pizza:  :pizza:

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 25, 2016, 11:11:35 PM
Thanks Matt, Bob, Roy, Norma  :chef:

Bob - Definitely inspired by Norma! I'm interested in taking it all the way and trying 100% white cheddar on these boardwalk style pies.

Roy, the deflated dough ball still rose, the picture from earlier was fresh out of the fridge. When I took them out to acclimate to room temp, it hadn't deflated, it had a huge bubble, so large it was touching the lid, and the moisture on the lid turned it into a soft weak white spot. When I touched it the bubble popped and deflated; but after tempering it rose back up, but as a wrinkled, kind of ugly dough ball where it lost its tension in the gluten membrane. The pepperoni is actually the deflated dough ball, and it has a more pronounced rim/ more oven spring... go figure!

I did my hybrid cooked/uncooked 7/11's. I think next time I'll thin the sauce so it has a bit more spread when squeezed on the boardwalk pie.

These were pretty good pies, 3 day CF; got a really weak bottom though, thin spots, not much crunch. I baked some bread before pizza and my stone seemed to have no stored heat. The boardwalk pie tore, actually stuck TO the stone. I'm going to try raising my TF just a hair.

Ryan
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 26, 2016, 06:50:34 AM
How much cheddar, if any, was used this time? Do you plan to move gradually to 100% or dive the rest of the way in?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 26, 2016, 07:32:28 AM
Thanks Matt, Bob, Roy, Norma  :chef:

Bob - Definitely inspired by Norma! I'm interested in taking it all the way and trying 100% white cheddar on these boardwalk style pies.

Roy, the deflated dough ball still rose, the picture from earlier was fresh out of the fridge. When I took them out to acclimate to room temp, it hadn't deflated, it had a huge bubble, so large it was touching the lid, and the moisture on the lid turned it into a soft weak white spot. When I touched it the bubble popped and deflated; but after tempering it rose back up, but as a wrinkled, kind of ugly dough ball where it lost its tension in the gluten membrane. The pepperoni is actually the deflated dough ball, and it has a more pronounced rim/ more oven spring... go figure!

I did my hybrid cooked/uncooked 7/11's. I think next time I'll thin the sauce so it has a bit more spread when squeezed on the boardwalk pie.

These were pretty good pies, 3 day CF; got a really weak bottom though, thin spots, not much crunch. I baked some bread before pizza and my stone seemed to have no stored heat. The boardwalk pie tore, actually stuck TO the stone. I'm going to try raising my TF just a hair.

Ryan
Remind me, was this the same formulation as the last one(s) with the VWG?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 26, 2016, 08:34:01 AM
How much cheddar, if any, was used this time? Do you plan to move gradually to 100% or dive the rest of the way in?

None this time, just mozzarella and asiago. I want to try it the NJ way since I'm thousands of miles from having a taste. I recall reading that you've been enjoying the addition of cheddar. How much are you blending?

Remind me, was this the same formulation as the last one(s) with the VWG?

Roy, yes it was. I noticed I made an error in my VWG calculations though, looks like I was using half the amount needed to reach the protein content I was trying to duplicate. I looked in my notes and did a new mixed mass calculation for next time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 26, 2016, 11:18:26 AM
None this time, just mozzarella and asiago. I want to try it the NJ way since I'm thousands of miles from having a taste. I recall reading that you've been enjoying the addition of cheddar. How much are you blending?


For my Greek pan pies I'm using between 1/3 and 1/4 cheddar mixed with mozz (plus a dusting of parm). Still experimenting with how much to use, but I think this is close to where I'll end up.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 26, 2016, 12:08:20 PM
For my Greek pan pies I'm using between 1/3 and 1/4 cheddar mixed with mozz (plus a dusting of parm). Still experimenting with how much to use, but I think this is close to where I'll end up.
What type/brand are you using?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 26, 2016, 02:44:47 PM
What type/brand are you using?

Roy

Pic below. We keep this stocked in the fridge as it's my usual afternoon snack.

Edit: I wonder if it being low fat helps me get the browning I'm after.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 26, 2016, 03:10:40 PM
Pic below. We keep this stocked in the fridge as it's my usual afternoon snack.

Edit: I wonder if it being low fat helps me get the browning I'm after.

Have you had boardwalk pizza? Do you think that one is too intense for 100% or would it work? Everything I've read from Norma and others says the famous cheese "blends" are all white cheddar.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 26, 2016, 03:22:14 PM
Have you had boardwalk pizza? Do you think that one is too intense for 100% or would it work? Everything I've read from Norma and others says the famous cheese "blends" are all white cheddar.

No, not yet. If I make it to the jersey Shore next summer I'll definitely try it. From what I've read here, it seems less sharp works better, though given my blend, I can just use less of the sharp stuff. It might be intense as 100%, but maybe not. I sometimes make quessadillas with it and like it FWIW. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but it's the only cheddar I've used.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 26, 2016, 03:33:38 PM
No, not yet. If I make it to the jersey Shore next summer I'll definitely try it. From what I've read here, it seems less sharp works better, though given my blend, I can just use less of the sharp stuff. It might be intense as 100%, but maybe not. I sometimes make quessadillas with it and like it FWIW. Sorry I can't be more helpful, but it's the only cheddar I've used.

It is helpful! I understand exactly what you mean. They say those pies are "rich" ... I didn't mention I brushed that crust with garlic butter before baking to add a little extra richness. Tom Lehmann says his favorite blend is 75% mozz 25% parm - That's 2 oz parm out of 8 oz cheese , I'm thinking of trying 7/1/1 mozz/asiago/parm next bake. I recall Norma saying she tried a bunch of cheddars before landing on the one she uses at market. I'll have to keep my eyes out for mild white cheddar and see if I see anything. I'm also interested in maybe trying 100% young asiago.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 26, 2016, 03:39:24 PM
Garlic butter makes everything better  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 26, 2016, 05:26:14 PM
I think Norma showed me/us a picture of a Cracker Barrel cheddar that was closest retail cheese to what she uses. Might be the white cheddar in the black packaging. Or maybe it was green. I'll try to remember where that was and do a search later this evening.   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2016, 08:21:11 AM
I recall Norma saying she tried a bunch of cheddars before landing on the one she uses at market. I'll have to keep my eyes out for mild white cheddar and see if I see anything.

Ryan,

If you might be interested in trying all white cheddar, there is a white cheddar that is very close to what I use at market.  It is cracker barrel sharp white cheddar.  It really isn't sharp although it says it is on the package.  The mild white cheddar I use at market is also labeled sharp when my distributor sells it for retail.  https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cracker-Barrel-Vermont-Sharp-White-Cheese-8-oz/20550648 and  http://www.target.com/p/cracker-barrel-vermont-sharp-white-cheddar-cheese-8-oz/-/A-12955120  It goes on sale around our area many times.  I used that on boardwalk pies and it melts almost like the cheddar at market.

Norma

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 28, 2016, 08:38:24 AM
Ryan,

If you might be interested in trying all white cheddar, there is a white cheddar that is very close to what I use at market.  It is cracker barrel sharp white cheddar.  It really isn't sharp although it says it is on the package.  The mild white cheddar I use at market is also labeled sharp when my distributor sells it for retail.  https://www.walmart.com/ip/Cracker-Barrel-Vermont-Sharp-White-Cheese-8-oz/20550648 and  http://www.target.com/p/cracker-barrel-vermont-sharp-white-cheddar-cheese-8-oz/-/A-12955120  It goes on sale around our area many times.  I used that on boardwalk pies and it melts almost like the cheddar at market.

Norma

Perfect! Thank you - I'm almost positive I've seen it at Albertsons.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 28, 2016, 01:11:46 PM
 :)  That's what I've been using and I like it a lot...I didn't even know I was using the right stuff!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 03, 2016, 10:22:50 AM
Ryan or anyone, we were talking briefly about Fontina. I got some a while back. What's the common or proper way to use Fontina for pizza? would it be best to use the very fine shaven-shred like Parmesan or pecorino, or would I do bigger shreds and use it like I would when I use sharp aged Cheddars for flavor accent?

btw - today we try 15-20g of aged Gouda. :)

Thanks,

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on December 03, 2016, 11:25:56 AM
Roy......I hope Ryan doesn't mind me posting a link to a video in his thread.....I like to use chunks or cubes of fontina like the guy in this video does.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwjvziBf-5E
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Ovenray on December 03, 2016, 11:50:10 AM
In the video the chef said "in Naples the middle of the pie is like a soup" and that is exactly the experience I have with my own home-oven cooked 'Margherita' when using fresh mozz with an uncooked sauce. I used to dry the mozz between paper towels but somewhere along I decided that wasnt giving me the best results, the moisture really belongs on the pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2016, 12:19:01 PM
No way Bob, thanks for posting!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2016, 05:38:10 PM
Precursor to my boardwalk test... I haven't done any shopping so this is all from stuff laying around the house. mozzarella, Asiago, cheddar, reggiano. Baked for 9 minutes on screen on the center rack. Thanks for looking

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on December 03, 2016, 05:45:37 PM
Hi Ryan, that looks really good - wondering what temp you cook at - when I do a bake any longer than 7 min my crust seems to (begins to) dry out too much - did you experience that with this 9 min bake - did you use a lot of oil and sugar to brown at a lower temp and keep the crust moist?

Thanks for any info you can provide!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2016, 06:10:31 PM
Hi Ryan, that looks really good - wondering what temp you cook at - when I do a bake any longer than 7 min my crust seems to (begins to) dry out too much - did you experience that with this 9 min bake - did you use a lot of oil and sugar to brown at a lower temp and keep the crust moist?

Thanks for any info you can provide!

Hi Norm  :) - 1% sugar 1% LDM 2% oil 55% water
I bake at full blast  ;D 550
I just checked the leftover slices and if you push on the crust it springs right back up. Not brittle or crackly. You can see in the slice shot it's not a cracker either since it contours to the plate. Your oven may be hotter, perhaps convection? You also have the reduced size baking chamber to accommodate for the double oven range which might help.  I have to be careful if I use the broiler because it can dry out the crust quickly. I didn't get great top browning though, despite baking on the center rack. My top browning is so hit or miss. I need to re-read this thread and see what I was doing earlier lol.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 03, 2016, 09:11:50 PM
Roy......I hope Ryan doesn't mind me posting a link to a video in his thread.....I like to use chunks or cubes of fontina like the guy in this video does.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwjvziBf-5E
Thanks for the link and tip, Bob! What's your favorite moz to Fotina ratio?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 03, 2016, 09:20:41 PM
Precursor to my boardwalk test... I haven't done any shopping so this is all from stuff laying around the house. mozzarella, Asiago, cheddar, reggiano. Baked for 9 minutes on screen on the center rack. Thanks for looking
Ryan, that looks quite nice. Still dialed in.  :chef:  I love the bottom. No soaking through or nothing. Nice. Probably held up very well.

I know this is a tough question to answer just because of the limitations of the written word, but how's the crisp layer on the screen? You obviously have enough lift to support the toppings. 

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2016, 11:06:08 PM
Ryan, that looks quite nice. Still dialed in.  :chef:  I love the bottom. No soaking through or nothing. Nice. Probably held up very well.

I know this is a tough question to answer just because of the limitations of the written word, but how's the crisp layer on the screen? You obviously have enough lift to support the toppings. 

Roy

I had a nice stretch today, no real thin spots, even with 2 tosses. My opening isn't always so even, but I lucked out today.

This one right here was certainly a crispy one. Just enough give to not be an arrow, pretty sturdy. I'm not sure if it's a function of the screen or just the way it extends bake time that helps deliver that crunch. I also let it rest for 5 min on a cooling rack. I'm going to mess with smaller stone baked pizzas again next bake to think about it more and the texture. Dough is already in the fridge   ::)


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 04, 2016, 09:01:15 AM
I had a nice stretch today, no real thin spots, even with 2 tosses. My opening isn't always so even, but I lucked out today.

This one right here was certainly a crispy one. Just enough give to not be an arrow, pretty sturdy. I'm not sure if it's a function of the screen or just the way it extends bake time that helps deliver that crunch. I also let it rest for 5 min on a cooling rack. I'm going to mess with smaller stone baked pizzas again next bake to think about it more and the texture. Dough is already in the fridge   ::)
It's hard to get crispy or crunchy on on smaller pies. Seems like an arrow is inveitable for me by the time the 3rd slice is bitten into. I do like a little dip and crunch at same time. Happy times.  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 04, 2016, 10:16:27 PM
14" baked on stone. 4 oz cheese
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 05, 2016, 07:06:46 AM
It's hard to get crispy or crunchy on on smaller pies. Seems like an arrow is inveitable for me by the time the 3rd slice is bitten into. I do like a little dip and crunch at same time. Happy times.  :drool:
I left out an important part of that sentance. What I tried and failed to say was that it;s hard to get crisy and crunchy and get a big dip on smaller pies.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 05, 2016, 07:12:18 AM
Ryan, those pies look very nice. I want some. Did you have to change much due to the stone verses screen, or notice any massive changes?

Man, you got this NY Slice style going on. :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 05, 2016, 12:04:27 PM
I left out an important part of that sentance. What I tried and failed to say was that it;s hard to get crisy and crunchy and get a big dip on smaller pies.

I know exactly what you mean, the smaller slices have less weight to support.

Ryan, those pies look very nice. I want some. Did you have to change much due to the stone verses screen, or notice any massive changes?

Man, you got this NY Slice style going on. :chef: :chef:

Thanks Roy  :)
I didn't use any malt and only 1% sugar, that's the only change I made but I think it would have been fine with 1% malt too. The under crust could have used more color, but the texture and flavor did taste quite nice. Will have to make some more pies to compare. I wouldn't be surprised if I prefer the stone in the end. Like cooking a flour tortilla, theres probably some magic in the initial surge of heat.
I think I got a pretty nice melt on the cheese pizza, the sauce and cheese boil kicks in much sooner. It probably effects sauce flavor. I was a little nervous about launching... haven't done it for a while but did okay.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 08, 2016, 06:33:49 PM
...
In JD's thread he talks about using more seasoning as many of the flavors are lost during baking. My sauce had a lot of oregano flavor pre bake but kind of disappeared post bake! I added 1/2t oregano and 1/8t basil for a 14 oz can, 1/8t black pepper, 1 small clove of garlic microwaved and blended with the sauce.

Ryan, do you put sugar in your sauce? If yes, how much?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 08, 2016, 07:41:04 PM
Ryan, do you put sugar in your sauce? If yes, how much?

One of those things since Im consistently fiddling with sauce. Sometimes equal parts to salt, sometimes twice as much as salt. Last bake I did 1/8t for a 28 oz can though. I do use cheaper tomatoes at times that seem to need it. I was planning to try next bake without any again. The party cut cracker crust pizza I grew up on tends to be on the sweeter side so I think there's some of that bias. I love those delicious sweet little grape tomatoes when the season is in.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 08, 2016, 10:36:34 PM
I've been using 1/4 tsp lately for the 7/11 blend. I did almost that much in salt, too, for tonight's bake. Came out pretty good, though some of it might have been more brick/oven on agressively stretched dough abuse. Thin, oversauced and over cheesed soupy mess just to see how much I could get away with. Definitely might be some serious consieration made to TF and how much sauce flavor develops with good heat.

I'm gonna do the same to a much bigger TF maybe Saturday to see if I can get a closer feel to thicker crust letting heat through thing like we were talking about. Having a batch of dough made that isn't part of that big series of tests is kind of fun.  :chef:   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 09, 2016, 01:40:05 PM
Ovenray I thought of you when I saw this. At $19 a pound it will have to wait though HA.

Found these Cento Certified on sale for $2.49 very curious to see how they perform. The next few baked are going to be very minimal, I really want to taste the tomatoes, cheese, and crust for what they're worth so I can get a better idea of what needs the most improvement.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on December 09, 2016, 01:59:24 PM
I picked these up today.  I've been stuck on the Dei Fratelli crushed for a while now and I'm ready to try something different.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 09, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Nice, post back your thoughts when you try it. It looks just like the Strianese passata I can get. Same glass jar too (which I like) but I don't believe the Strianese is organic. Are you thinking NY or squares when you sample it?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on December 09, 2016, 03:36:16 PM
Nice, post back your thoughts when you try it. It looks just like the Strianese passata I can get. Same glass jar too (which I like) but I don't believe the Strianese is organic. Are you thinking NY or squares when you sample it?

Have you tried the Strianese passata before or just looked at them?  What did you think if you tried them?

I'm going to try a thin crust based on a dough formulation I found.  There's an accompanying sauce recipe and for cheese it calls for provolone and pepper jack, no mozz - so basically everything different from what I've been doing  :-D  Disaster awaits!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 09, 2016, 03:53:38 PM
Have you tried the Strianese passata before or just looked at them?  What did you think if you tried them?

I'm going to try a thin crust based on a dough formulation I found.  There's an accompanying sauce recipe and for cheese it calls for provolone and pepper jack, no mozz - so basically everything different from what I've been doing  :-D  Disaster awaits!

I did but I honestly don't remember. I know the consistency is really nice and spreadable. The Strianese stuff is all really old at this store. The canned ones are from the 2012 harvest! And I don't understand why the color is darker than canned tomatoes. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 10, 2016, 07:57:17 AM
Ovenray I thought of you when I saw this. At $19 a pound it will have to wait though HA.

Found these Cento Certified on sale for $2.49 very curious to see how they perform. The next few baked are going to be very minimal, I really want to taste the tomatoes, cheese, and crust for what they're worth so I can get a better idea of what needs the most improvement.

Awesome! Good luck.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 10, 2016, 05:41:49 PM
A few 12" testers today, 4 day CF
4 oz mozzarella per pie, half Saputo Gold shredded, half Galbani fresh.
Carmelina tomato sauce - Not that good out of the can. Of course these have no added salt, so I did add a bit; I did end up adding 1/8t sugar as the sweetness was not there. This is pretty consistent to my experiences this year with Carmelinas. Last year they were really good.

2nd pie is Gallo pepperoni and a shake of dried oregano

Last pie is olive oil, sliced garlic, fresh basil, and Parmigiano Reggiano.

6.5 min bake time, stone on the second to last shelf position. They tasted better than they look. Crust had a real nice flavor. Not sure if the fresh mozzarella really added anything. Oh well, thanks for stopping by pizza pals!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 10, 2016, 07:40:34 PM
Dude, those look very nice. I like the bottom. Rim colors, too. Especially the first two. 3rd is no slouch.

I've done bits of fresh moz before. I dig it. Been too long since I've done any.

Looks like you got good spring, too. Good topping support from what I could see. Any changes other than the CF? Any malt?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 10, 2016, 08:21:11 PM
Dude, those look very nice. I like the bottom. Rim colors, too. Especially the first two. 3rd is no slouch.

I've done bits of fresh moz before. I dig it. Been too long since I've done any.

Looks like you got good spring, too. Good topping support from what I could see. Any changes other than the CF? Any malt?

Roy

It's weird, this and my last bake had more crunch than it looks. Color development seems slow lately. Maybe because I've been leaving out the sugar and/or malt. I pulled the last one early to keep the crumb softer, it's somewhere between a white pie and garlic bread. They tasted good but no real wow factor anywhere. Spring was alright but you can see some parts of the rim that didn't puff up well, a few thin spots in the stretch too. I figured after all the 17" practice stretching a 12" pie would be a cake walk but... apparently not! The allure of dough and all its mysterious inner workings! 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 10, 2016, 11:45:51 PM
It's weird, this and my last bake had more crunch than it looks. Color development seems slow lately. Maybe because I've been leaving out the sugar and/or malt. I pulled the last one early to keep the crumb softer, it's somewhere between a white pie and garlic bread. They tasted good but no real wow factor anywhere. Spring was alright but you can see some parts of the rim that didn't puff up well, a few thin spots in the stretch too. I figured after all the 17" practice stretching a 12" pie would be a cake walk but... apparently not! The allure of dough and all its mysterious inner workings!
Mysterious, Indeed. I couldn't fathom the line of thinking below about sugar a couple of months ago.

There's a line of thought on sugar that dictates that it's use if actually prohibitive to the crunch. The darker it gets, the sooner we yank it out of the oven. We leave the lighter pie in longer to wait for the low sugar amounts to finally start browning, In the mean time, a crunch happens. Of course you gotta have a strong enough dough for all this to work, which appears to be your situation. I didn't have that strength for a long time.  :'( 

One curious thing. If you were to add .50% of sugar to this same exact bake, would it give your yeast enough food to help with dough strength, and even provide enough sugars to enhance a bit of browning? I added .50% sugar and it was too much. The upside is a more traditional bottom browning coloring, if that was what you were after.

Smaller pies change the stretch timing? 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 11, 2016, 01:45:55 AM
Mysterious, Indeed. I couldn't fathom the line of thinking below about sugar a couple of months ago.

There's a line of thought on sugar that dictates that it's use if actually prohibitive to the crunch. The darker it gets, the sooner we yank it out of the oven. We leave the lighter pie in longer to wait for the low sugar amounts to finally start browning, In the mean time, a crunch happens. Of course you gotta have a strong enough dough for all this to work, which appears to be your situation. I didn't have that strength for a long time.  :'( 

One curious thing. If you were to add .50% of sugar to this same exact bake, would it give your yeast enough food to help with dough strength, and even provide enough sugars to enhance a bit of browning? I added .50% sugar and it was too much. The upside is a more traditional bottom browning coloring, if that was what you were after.

Smaller pies change the stretch timing?

I guess Ive been making screen launched 17"s since I got this oven and don't really have it figured out for a full stone bake. My old oven dynamics are definitely not in play. That thing made killer pies, my stone on the bottom rack could turn a 3:30 pie. Around 650 degrees I assume. I was reminiscing on page 2 and 3 in this thread. Today's bake just seems like a step backward compared to those.

The more I've been reading around, vtsteve's excellent posts, your thread, antilife's thread in the Neapolitan forum, and others - I think I really do need to work on dough strength. I could just tell in the stretch it wasn't smooth enough. This matches the under crust and inconsistent stretch I believe. Something to work on.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 11, 2016, 02:10:30 PM
I guess Ive been making screen launched 17"s since I got this oven and don't really have it figured out for a full stone bake. My old oven dynamics are definitely not in play. That thing made killer pies, my stone on the bottom rack could turn a 3:30 pie. Around 650 degrees I assume. I was reminiscing on page 2 and 3 in this thread. Today's bake just seems like a step backward compared to those.

The more I've been reading around, vtsteve's excellent posts, your thread, antilife's thread in the Neapolitan forum, and others - I think I really do need to work on dough strength. I could just tell in the stretch it wasn't smooth enough. This matches the under crust and inconsistent stretch I believe. Something to work on.
A 3m, 30s pie using an un-altered oven must be as good as it gets. Do you remember the brand and model?

Your pies look too good to think there's any strength deficiency. I do understand the concept of anting "more", though.  ;D  You did yours without having to come up with some hair-brained scheme of a work-flow. By hand, too. I bet there's a lot of know how in them hands. Can you feel the bake as you're kneading the dough? I've been wrong more than I've been right. I've had some dough that I thought felt great and ended up chewing like my little league baseball mitt.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 12, 2016, 10:28:56 AM
I tried this dough with 5% organic rye flour. I was thinking of the Mozza recipe but I guess I used too much. I didn't like it at all. Oh well, posting my ups and downs as it's far from all glitter here in the Pie Barn. A great reminder to KISS. Yeah there's a ton of dough science, and I enjoy the experiments; but at the same time, I think it's really easy to overthink this whole thing.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 12, 2016, 10:37:14 AM
A 3m, 30s pie using an un-altered oven must be as good as it gets. Do you remember the brand and model?

Your pies look too good to think there's any strength deficiency. I do understand the concept of anting "more", though.  ;D  You did yours without having to come up with some hair-brained scheme of a work-flow. By hand, too. I bet there's a lot of know how in them hands. Can you feel the bake as you're kneading the dough? I've been wrong more than I've been right. I've had some dough that I thought felt great and ended up chewing like my little league baseball mitt.

It was an old electric Kenmore and I really shouldn't have let them take it, I should have demanded it be wired up on my small apartment balcony lol. I feel like opening the dough I can get a better feel for the bake, probably not as much when kneading. I have to be very conscious of dough temperature when opening. Ive gotten some fairly poor results with a less than optimal dough temp. Especially on a plain slice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 12, 2016, 10:51:22 AM
On the rye-pie, was it just flavor, or was there a big structural issue? It certainly looks good, but I totally understand how looks can be deceiving. I've made some fantastic looking duds.  :-[

What's your optimal temperature range for dropping?

In the early stages of coming up with my dough technique, I used to rely on additional development time to get my dough to come alive. I stopped doing that sometime this summer, I think. 

I'm going to test something soon. CaptBob talked about a opening a cooler dough and getting decreased blistering. I had a recent stretch done on a dough i rushed into action. It got me thinking - more like wondering - what kind of difference there is if dropping and stretching at the same temp, but getting there faster makes any sort of difference.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 12, 2016, 11:30:18 AM
Just flavor, I found it detracting from the balance. And I love rye. I didn't expect it to be so noticeable but it was. I'm not sure of temp since I have to rely on lots of guesses, I just know if it's cool I'll get bubbles all over the pie like I was running into a month or two ago.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 12, 2016, 02:26:16 PM
Just flavor, I found it detracting from the balance. And I love rye. I didn't expect it to be so noticeable but it was. I'm not sure of temp since I have to rely on lots of guesses, I just know if it's cool I'll get bubbles all over the pie like I was running into a month or two ago.
I guess some flavors don't combine well.  :-\ 

Interesting on the bubbles. I might keep track of temps just to see if I get any sort of trend.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 12, 2016, 02:46:58 PM
Where the crust is charred it tastes like rye toast. It just didn't work for me. I ended up pitching this one.  :-X Haven't done that since that pie I tried Locatelli pecorino on.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 12, 2016, 04:33:19 PM
Where the crust is charred it tastes like rye toast. It just didn't work for me. I ended up pitching this one.  :-X Haven't done that since that pie I tried Locatelli pecorino on.
:-D :-D
Yeah, I know from that one.  ;D  Lacotelli is strong stuff.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 16, 2016, 09:32:49 PM
Experimental laminated pan cracker
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 16, 2016, 09:59:33 PM
Ryan, I gots no idea how one of them is supposed to look and all, but I do know that looks really yummy.  8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 16, 2016, 10:08:55 PM
Im dying to make a thin crust in my cutter pan, I got addicted to dominos thin and crispy pizza's when I was younger, I dont care to replicate their recipe, it's all about the thinness of the dough with the hearty toppings atop!  Yummy looking thin squares Invertedisdead!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 17, 2016, 09:46:12 AM
Thanks guys! I grew up on cracker crust but never make it because I don't like laminating by hand that much. My rolling pin is too short to go the entire span of the dough, I need a French pin. This was pretty good but not crunchy enough, next time I'll bake in a lower rack position. With this recipe you roll the dough and refrigerate it overnight already open, so you just have to top and bake. Im gonna dig through the archives and see if there might be a better pan to use.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 22, 2016, 06:59:18 AM
Ryan, I hope you don't mind if I ask you something about an old topic of conversation. This is about the Hoosiers DMP we both got. I have a few assumptions that I derived from conversation you and others were having about DMP.

#1: The stuff we got is 60L - Hoosier - is 60L.
#2: The general, if no starting place, is to use 2% in bakers percentages. However.....
#3: That assumes the DMP in use as having a Litner value of 20L.
#4: To correct this, you and I would use 1/3rd of the value. Instead of 2%, we would use .66%.

Is that how you are reading this?

Roy   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 22, 2016, 09:17:11 AM
Yes it is Roy. I'm currently using 3 grams in a 500g batch of flour. I think I was using way too much in some previous attempts.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 22, 2016, 04:06:41 PM
Three 12 inchers on this rainy day. A cheese, a pepperoni, and a pepperoni/mushroom/olive. DiNapoli tomatoes, salt, sugar, pepper, oregano; drained and cooked for about 5 minutes. Oregano, black pepper, and reggiano post bake on all pies, plus a little EVOO on the cheese pizza. 3 ounces Saputo Gold per pie.

This was a 2 stone style bake, one on the lowest rack and one on the highest. I started low then shifted to the top after 2 minutes, but judging by the top color I think I will just launch up top next time. About 7 minutes on all these.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on December 22, 2016, 06:40:10 PM
Looks great Ryan! Did you like the DiNapoli's?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 22, 2016, 06:56:54 PM
Ryan, those look very, very nice.  8) 8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 22, 2016, 07:16:21 PM
Why thank you Bob and Roy  :)

Bob I'm definitely a fan of the DiNapoli. Is it the same farm as the Bianco DiNapoli you use? They have a nice balanced flavor, and not so much calcium chloride that they don't break down like some of the other brands.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on December 23, 2016, 08:12:08 AM
Ryan, those look very, very nice.  8) 8)

 ^^^  :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 23, 2016, 10:58:55 AM
 Thanks sir! I'm not sure why my pictures are so blurry, maybe grease on the lens

These pizzas taste very different from the large screened pizza. There is a more pronounced char taste wise, not just the color which is easy to get with a screen. The pie is also crispier even though bake time is less. The smaller pies do seem to crisp up more as Harry said in another post.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 24, 2016, 06:40:24 AM
Hey Ryan..great pies!


Doesn't appear to be grease on lens....looks like some camera movement. Maybe light level was lower and auto settings slowed down the shutter speed to compensate.  Usually holding the camera/phone very steady and gently pushing the release button (real or virtual)  will keep the images sharper.  It can be tricky when just working with kitchen light..multiple shots defonitely improves chances..We used to say. .film is cheap,  Even cheaper now that there is no film needed  ;)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 24, 2016, 11:30:26 AM
Thanks Bill, must be the pizza jitters slice withdrawal symptoms kicking in! The lighting is horrible in the kitchen. Not enough of it and too yellow. I can only get a decent shot outside on the bistro. I guess I'll have to make more pizzas to work on it
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 24, 2016, 12:08:23 PM
Quote
the pizza jitters


LOL, yeah, that'll happen  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 24, 2016, 01:51:51 PM
Three 12 inchers on this rainy day. A cheese, a pepperoni, and a pepperoni/mushroom/olive. DiNapoli tomatoes, salt, sugar, pepper, oregano; drained and cooked for about 5 minutes. Oregano, black pepper, and reggiano post bake on all pies, plus a little EVOO on the cheese pizza. 3 ounces Saputo Gold per pie.

This was a 2 stone style bake, one on the lowest rack and one on the highest. I started low then shifted to the top after 2 minutes, but judging by the top color I think I will just launch up top next time. About 7 minutes on all these.

Your pics are blurry because of a low shutter speeds, caused by low light.
Low shutter speeds make camera shake visible.
Camera shake is manifested in the form of a blurry image
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 24, 2016, 03:20:27 PM
Thanks I'll try and hold steadier. I just lost all my pics when my laptop went down. Here's one of the only better ones still on my phone. Marinara pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 24, 2016, 05:29:22 PM
Sharp as a tack...and looks really tasty! How did you get that nice gloss? When I've baked with little or no  cheese, I have dried-out looking (and tasting) sauce...Yours looks excellent..Oil mixed with sauce? Oil post-bake? Love the char, too...broiler on during bake?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 24, 2016, 06:49:06 PM
Sharp as a tack...and looks really tasty! How did you get that nice gloss? When I've baked with little or no  cheese, I have dried-out looking (and tasting) sauce...Yours looks excellent..Oil mixed with sauce? Oil post-bake? Love the char, too...broiler on during bake?

Thanks Bill, yeah that was with the broiler running full bake when I had the old oven with the rocket  :) fairly high hydration if I recall; allows it to get that rich char without drying out the rim.
Regarding the sheen, I think it was a combination of a fast bake, a not so conservative glug of olive oil, and a decent amount of sauce. I know exactly what you mean because I've made marinaras where the sauce reduced too much. I think you gotta make it a bit saucy to make up for protection from the cheese. I don't think this oven can pull off a fast enough bake to pull this one off. It really needs a fast bake IMO. I'd love to try steel.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 24, 2016, 08:20:13 PM
Thanks Ryan...I do like steel..in fact, that reminds me to post over in  the steel section about recovery times..curious what others are getting


Thanks for the info...and Merry Christmas to you and yours!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 27, 2016, 03:59:25 PM
Monster supreme, been wanting to make one of these for a while and after seeing the latest efforts from Sodface and Hermit I had to. First time trying 12 oz of cheese on this 17" pie after reading some of hammettjr's thoughts in his Umberto's review.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 27, 2016, 04:21:50 PM
Isin't it great to get all those flavors on a single slice?  That looks really yummy Ryan.  What did you think of the extra cheese?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on December 27, 2016, 04:25:57 PM
That looks really yummy Ryan.
^^^

What made up the 12oz?  All the same cheese or a blend?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 27, 2016, 04:44:41 PM
Wow, I'm not usually a topping guy, but that looks great! What'd you think of it Ryan?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 27, 2016, 05:57:55 PM
Monster supreme, been wanting to make one of these for a while and after seeing the latest efforts from Sodface and Hermit I had to. First time trying 12 oz of cheese on this 17" pie after reading some of hammettjr's thoughts in his Umberto's review.

You keep improving.  That pie looks great.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 27, 2016, 06:13:53 PM
Thank you my pizza brothers!

Isin't it great to get all those flavors on a single slice?  That looks really yummy Ryan.  What did you think of the extra cheese?

Well I might need to go pant shopping, but it was really good!  :chef: I've been scared to mess with too much cheese thinking I'll get this (Bacio ad below  :-X)  but this didn't seem to be enough to push it over the edge.

^^^

What made up the 12oz?  All the same cheese or a blend?

100% Saputo Gold whole milk low moisture mozzarella. I did do a nice grating of some reggiano over the sauce and another over the toppings pre bake but I didn't weigh it. I would say it was a few grams judging by pizzas where I have weighed the Parmesan. Not a half ounce or anything though. Funny, even with that much cheese and two meat toppings, I would not describe it as greasy. I used to frequently blot takeout pizzas but I've only done it once with my own, and that was when I tried Polly-O cheese. I don't hate the grease but I also think at a certain point it becomes excessive. Costco pizza would be an example of excessive grease to me. At least a few years ago, haven't had a slice from there in ages.

Wow, I'm not usually a topping guy, but that looks great! What'd you think of it Ryan?

Thanks Matt! I thought it was damn good for a change. It was a nice change of pace, I haven't had a supreme type pizza in forever. These slices are more filling than my typical pie, so I think this is a nice one to put in the books for guests. I diced the red onion and green bell pepper and went a little lighter with those than the rest of the toppings. IMO most places use too much onion and pepper and overpower it (probably because it's a cheap topping) this was just right (to me) I also think a larger diameter pepperoni is nice on a pie this big, whereas it's perfect on smaller pizzas 12-14"

You keep improving.  That pie looks great.


Thank you sir! I've definitely learned some things from your posts Harry.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 27, 2016, 06:26:19 PM
That looks really great, Ryan! You can't imagine how hard it is to find a slice that great right in NYC..This is in the top echelon!


You're  a long way from the cheese-o-rama in the bottom shot. I needed to let out my belt just looking at that!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 27, 2016, 06:32:37 PM
I forgot to ask, what was your TF/dough weight? It looks nice and thin like your previous pies, and it seemed to hold up to the additional cheeses/toppings nicely.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 27, 2016, 08:01:39 PM
That looks really great, Ryan! You can't imagine how hard it is to find a slice that great right in NYC..This is in the top echelon!


You're  a long way from the cheese-o-rama in the bottom shot. I needed to let out my belt just looking at that!

Thanks for the kind words Bill! :chef:

I forgot to ask, what was your TF/dough weight? It looks nice and thin like your previous pies, and it seemed to hold up to the additional cheeses/toppings nicely.


I was going to post about this, it's actually like .093, 600 grams @ 17" so higher dough weight, but a bit under fermented so it's not huge but more dough to support the toppings. I wonder if more places do this because many pies never seem to have bubbles in the rim which seems to hint at being a little under. I thought it had a nice crust flavor. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 27, 2016, 08:22:05 PM
Dude!!!  That is one fine looking pie. I keep looking at it to see where you hid all that cheese!   :-D :-D

Seriously, though -  that is really fine.

On the grease topic: I don't get the orange grease until I get the cheese wicked bubbly. I bet it's considered over cooking. Separation or something. The dough weight probably helped to reduce the rapid bubbling thing, keeping cheese intact. Just my guess, anyhow.

Yeah, dude, that's a fine looking pie you baked. I hope you didn't have to share.  ;D

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 27, 2016, 09:26:36 PM
Thanks for the support Roy! I might have to wrap a few slices next year and give the gift of pizza  :-D

It sucked the cheese up pretty good! I was going to make pepperoni rolls but I saw Hermit's latest pie and had to make one of these. This dough was way more extensible than I usually make. I gave it one toss and it was open. A bit more water and oil than my usual.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 09:52:49 PM
Monster supreme, been wanting to make one of these for a while and after seeing the latest efforts from Sodface and Hermit I had to. First time trying 12 oz of cheese on this 17" pie after reading some of hammettjr's thoughts in his Umberto's review.

Very nice Ryan!

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 28, 2016, 08:13:36 AM
.......I might have to wrap a few slices next year and give the gift of pizza  :-D
......

Someone will come up with an affordable way to do something like that soon. Send the gift of home cooking. $19.95!   :D 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 28, 2016, 08:58:27 AM
Very nice Ryan!

Norma

Thank you Norma  8)

Someone will come up with an affordable way to do something like that soon. Send the gift of home cooking. $19.95!   :D 

HA except it would be probably be deceptive marketing and owned by Kraft - "Give the gift of home cooking" (from the comforts of our giant factory and distribution network)  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 30, 2016, 09:51:55 AM
Ryan, what's your yeast %, type and timing for you "emergency" or same day dough and you 1-2 day variations?

And also, with that LDMP Hoosiers stuff we both have, would you use it for either of them?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 12:18:15 PM
Ryan, what's your yeast %, type and timing for you "emergency" or same day dough and you 1-2 day variations?

And also, with that LDMP Hoosiers stuff we both have, would you use it for either of them?

Roy

Hi Roy,
Around .15-.3 for same day 5 hours-ish depending on temperature; and .3-.45 for my CF dough. I lost all my pizza pictures and notes when that cola wiped out my laptop but that sounds about right.
I would try the DMP for the same day but stick to .5% since its 60L.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 30, 2016, 12:40:48 PM
Hi Roy,
Around .15-.3 for same day 5 hours-ish depending on temperature; and .3-.45 for my CF dough. I lost all my pizza pictures and notes when that cola wiped out my laptop but that sounds about right.
I would try the DMP for the same day but stick to .5% since its 60L.
Thanks for the intel.  8) 

What's "that cola"? Like a soda in a keyboard thing? Ouch!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 12:46:36 PM
No problem! Also, that's all IDY. I'm on the iPad and it refreshes when I change tabs and deleted the first message I had typed out.

Yeah, soda, spilled and went under the computer and flooded it  :-\
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 30, 2016, 09:45:15 PM

Yeah, soda, spilled and went under the computer and flooded it  :-\

Any chance the hard drive is still good?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 09:55:59 PM
Any chance the hard drive is still good?

I don't know, it's a SSD but I'm not familiar with how they do recovery on those drives. I only know about regular hard drives. I need to take it in and have it diagnosed @ Apple. My cousin told me it could have just wiped out the ram or shorted the battery and might not be the expensive logic board. It won't boot but I can hear the fan try to spool up if I push the power button.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 30, 2016, 10:06:56 PM
fwiw, I had good luck using something like the link below. (My laptop wasn't an apple.) I was surprised by how cheap and easy it was.

https://www.amazon.com/GOLDSTAR-Professional-Portable-External-Enclosure/dp/B014NYFADA/
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 30, 2016, 10:38:14 PM
fwiw, I had good luck using something like the link below. (My laptop wasn't an apple.) I was surprised by how cheap and easy it was.

https://www.amazon.com/GOLDSTAR-Professional-Portable-External-Enclosure/dp/B014NYFADA/

Very interesting, thank you for that Matt! Worth a shot, Nothing was backed up  :angel:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: sodface on December 31, 2016, 08:00:02 AM
fwiw, I had good luck using something like the link below. (My laptop wasn't an apple.) I was surprised by how cheap and easy it was.

https://www.amazon.com/GOLDSTAR-Professional-Portable-External-Enclosure/dp/B014NYFADA/
Very interesting, thank you for that Matt! Worth a shot, Nothing was backed up  :angel:

And to go along with that external case Ryan, I've had good luck with this free photo (and other file type) recovery application:

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec

Also, I may have missed some of the details of what happened to your laptop but if you just spilled something in it and the laptop died - there might not be anything wrong with the hard disk.  Could be as simple as installing it in the external case that hammettjr linked to and copying stuff off it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 31, 2016, 09:00:32 AM
And to go along with that external case Ryan, I've had good luck with this free photo (and other file type) recovery application:

http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec

Also, I may have missed some of the details of what happened to your laptop but if you just spilled something in it and the laptop died - there might not be anything wrong with the hard disk.  Could be as simple as installing it in the external case that hammettjr linked to and copying stuff off it.

Thanks for that Carl!

I assume the motherboard is what got wiped out, I THINK the SSD is still retrievable, but Coca Cola is intense stuff... I saw them clean blood off concrete with it on an episode of Mythbusters once  :-\
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 04:38:44 PM
Another monster supreme fresh out the pie barn!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 02, 2017, 06:48:16 PM
Ryan, that looks sensational! Well done. I don't  know how it could look any better.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 07:13:59 PM
Ryan, that looks sensational! Well done. I don't  know how it could look any better.

As always thanks for the sincere gestures Roy  :) although I must say I think visually the main flaw is these big pies is they need need a larger diameter pepperoni. This size is awesome with a 12" pie but it takes too long to apply with a pizza this big. This is the end of the stick, will look around for something else. I wanted to make a plain cheese pie myself but the supreme was requested. New tomatoes - O Organics (Albertsons) tomato sauce, ingredients are organic tomato purée, salt, organic sugar, organic red pepper, and citric acid. Perfect smooth pizza sauce texture and consistency, will try this one again. I think I liked it, but it can be hard to tell with this many toppings compared to a classic slice. I added 1/4 tsp of oregano to the sauced skin and a grating of reggiano. 12 oz Saputo WMLM mozzarella with a light grating of locatelli. Pepperoni, hot Italian sausage (no heat whatsoever) mushroom, onion, green bell pepper, and a twist this time with fresh thinly sliced garlic which I tend to like on most any pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 02, 2017, 07:16:47 PM
Love the supremes Ryan!  Nice bottom browning, did you cook completely on the screen or move to a stone at any point?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 07:29:19 PM
Thanks Hermit ! These last few 17"s have all been done on screen. The overhang from my 15" stone is kind of annoying with the 17" screen. I would like to get a 15" square stone and maybe go down to a 16" screen which would have minimal overhang and make more even contact.

Why is everything I want pizza related?  ???
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 02, 2017, 07:59:08 PM
Thanks Hermit ! These last few 17"s have all been done on screen. The overhang from my 15" stone is kind of annoying with the 17" screen. I would like to get a 15" square stone and maybe go down to a 16" screen which would have minimal overhang and make more even contact.

Why is everything I want pizza related?  ???
It's cheaper than guitar gear. (yeah, I got that addiction too.  :-[    )


Anyhooooooo, What was your bake time/positions/temp protocol?  I need to adjust my heavier pies.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 08:08:53 PM
It's cheaper than guitar gear. (yeah, I got that addiction too.  :-[    )


Anyhooooooo, What was your bake time/positions/temp protocol?  I need to adjust my heavier pies.

Same, but pretty content with my Music Man Silhouette Special  :D

Would you believe me if I said this baked for 12 minutes at 550? Seems kinda long. Maybe I need more sugar in the dough, but it really seems like this oven isn't well calibrated. 2nd to bottom rack, shifted to the top rack and a touch of broiling the last 90 seconds or so because the cheese melt was looking a little white. I think the bake time will always be a little longer on screen without a commercial air impingement oven, or at least convection.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on January 02, 2017, 08:46:35 PM
Great looking pie Ryan!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on January 02, 2017, 08:58:53 PM
Great looking pie Ryan!!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 02, 2017, 09:08:07 PM
Thanks Bob, Jeff  :chef:

Haven't seen a pie from you in a minute Jeff, when's the next bake!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 02, 2017, 10:02:32 PM
Same, but pretty content with my Music Man Silhouette Special  :D

Would you believe me if I said this baked for 12 minutes at 550? Seems kinda long. Maybe I need more sugar in the dough, but it really seems like this oven isn't well calibrated. 2nd to bottom rack, shifted to the top rack and a touch of broiling the last 90 seconds or so because the cheese melt was looking a little white. I think the bake time will always be a little longer on screen without a commercial air impingement oven, or at least convection.
Oh Cool - I think keef played one of them when he fronted the 'winos.   8) 8)

12-minutes? Dang! That's impressive. Talk about mastering your oven.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 03, 2017, 03:21:34 PM
Had a 420 gram dough ball in the fridge, 6 oz of mozzarella, and the leftover sauce from yesterday's bake - good enough for a pizza. I decided to spice this one up and let meld overnight for a bolder sauce with granulated garlic, black pepper, dry basil, oregano, crushed red pepper, salt, and sugar. There wasn't really enough sauce left for a pizza this big, oh well; lunch!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 03, 2017, 03:45:18 PM
Looks cool Ryan, but not sure how you resisted making a smiley face out of the cheese bits  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 03, 2017, 04:11:41 PM
Looks like a better lunch than I had.   :(   I can easily imagine making very quick work of making that pie go buh-bye.

Did you enjoy the sauce?

Was that a 17 incher?

How many pancakes would it take to fill a doghouse if motorcycles had doors?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 03, 2017, 04:14:36 PM
Looks like a better lunch than I had.   :(   I can easily imagine making very quick work of making that pie go buh-bye.

Did you enjoy the sauce?

Was that a 17 incher?

How many pancakes would it take to fill a doghouse if motorcycles had doors?

I did like the sauce, worked pretty well with a cheese sparse pie like this. Yes, 17 inches.

How many pancakes is that?  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 03, 2017, 04:20:52 PM
Very nice thin slice there Ryan!  What did you think of the amp'd up sauce even if it wasn't enough?  Ah I see you liked it, awesome!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 03, 2017, 04:24:00 PM
Thanks Hermit   :D I liked it. Although I think the amount of seasoning I used will work better with a full can rather than just the leftovers. It did have a "pizza smell" to it, raw, and while cooking that I liked. There wasn't enough sauce to get much of a saucy bite though. Gonna try this style on the lowest rack with a quicker bake and see how it tastes slightly more puffy.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 03, 2017, 04:26:21 PM
I did like the sauce, worked pretty well with a cheese sparse pie like this. Yes, 17 inches.
How was the crunch/crisp?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 03, 2017, 04:31:35 PM
How was the crunch/crisp?

Half the pie was like this and the other half was softer like the second pic. I preferred the softer one though. More crisp, less crunchy than the charred one, which wasn't bitter (to me) but kind of had a "toast" taste that reminds me of that one with rye flour I didn't like.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 03, 2017, 09:45:41 PM
I'm going to focus on cloning this pie I made once. I haven't really nailed this one since. I want to be able to do the same pie consistently like Roy does.

Specifically nailing this melt and a thin, even crust with a rim which is small and tender but not bready in the least. The pie is craveable and easy to eat.

For this 17" size I'm thinking of trying 10 oz cheese diced, baked in the lowest rack position.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 04, 2017, 07:31:20 AM
Half the pie was like this and the other half was softer like the second pic. I preferred the softer one though. More crisp, less crunchy than the charred one, which wasn't bitter (to me) but kind of had a "toast" taste that reminds me of that one with rye flour I didn't like.
That's interesting. I'm trying to conceptualize the "toast" taste. I don't know if that is something I get once in a while or not.

While I enjoy my hard to get crunch extra-thin crunch thing, I can get carried away with it and lose interest that a medium crunch can deliver. One that can be folded with a minor cracking, minor dipping and a combination of soft and crunchy going for it. I don't think I would want a 1/4" luan plywood pie all the time.

Do you rotate the pie?

(On a side note, I rotate about 2-1/2 to 3 minutes into a bake. Uneven bottoms if I do not. I know I lose heat. I wonder how much that slows my sauce/cheese bubbling down? If I do it after the sauce/cheese bubbling gets going a lot, it's too late for any chance of an even bottom. that's why I am considering turning on my broiler when doing that early rotation thing. Maybe a half minute before or something. )

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 04, 2017, 08:43:12 AM
That's interesting. I'm trying to conceptualize the "toast" taste. I don't know if that is something I get once in a while or not.

While I enjoy my hard to get crunch extra-thin crunch thing, I can get carried away with it and lose interest that a medium crunch can deliver. One that can be folded with a minor cracking, minor dipping and a combination of soft and crunchy going for it. I don't think I would want a 1/4" luan plywood pie all the time.

Do you rotate the pie?

(On a side note, I rotate about 2-1/2 to 3 minutes into a bake. Uneven bottoms if I do not. I know I lose heat. I wonder how much that slows my sauce/cheese bubbling down? If I do it after the sauce/cheese bubbling gets going a lot, it's too late for any chance of an even bottom. that's why I am considering turning on my broiler when doing that early rotation thing. Maybe a half minute before or something. )

I mean like a piece of well toasted bread. You'd probably notice if you did, I mean I like toast but it's weird in this sense. It's not like burnt bubbles or undercrust char spots; it's different - I think it's a combination of being super thin and cooking too long / close to the element that does it. I know what you mean about the balance between tenderness and crunch, it's a fine line and everyone has their preference which side they steer closer to but ultimately that balance is what makes a great pie.

I did rotate but I walked away from the kitchen for a moment so it got turned a little late. I have to turn the 17"s especially because it almost touches the back and door of the oven, and the rim will get much more color in those places than the rest of the pizza, it barely fits in the oven. Sometimes I think I need more than one turn but I hate opening the door too much, especially with a screen which takes longer to fiddle with than peeling a pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 04, 2017, 01:03:56 PM
I'm going to focus on cloning this pie I made once. I haven't really nailed this one since. I want to be able to do the same pie consistently like Roy does.

Specifically nailing this melt and a thin, even crust with a rim which is small and tender but not bready in the least. The pie is craveable and easy to eat.

For this 17" size I'm thinking of trying 10 oz cheese diced, baked in the lowest rack position.
What are the, um...specs(?) on this pie that you are going to do? Looks darned fine, that's for sure.  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 04, 2017, 03:38:02 PM
Gonna start with a pretty standard 56% hydration dough, 2% salt/sugar/oil .07 TF. That was my first screen bake ever so I know it's possible, just gotta hone in on bake specifics and getting that melt. I'm thinking of cubing the mozzarella and pulsing it in the food processor. I want it to mingle with the sauce which I think takes a solid amount of sauce coverage, thin enough dough for a fast boil, and thinking the diced mozz (like that Vito's video I posted from jsaras) will break down faster so I can pull off a quicker bake and keep the pie tender. I lost all my notes with the computer crash but I remember a bit from this bake. Will probably go with the sliced fresh garlic and basil leaves under the cheese, and gonna play with black pepper, crushed red, and sugar in the sauce to try and get a sweet & spicy thing going on. I might grate a little locatelli over the mozz pre bake and hit it with reggiano on the way out. We'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 04, 2017, 04:40:20 PM
They use really small dices of fresh mozzerella at the pizzaria nearby, their sauce and cheese always seems to mingle well, like the sauce..for lack of a better word..lubricates the melt and allows it to blend together to form this harmony of cheese and sauce.  The cheese doesn't seem to stretch off on the bite, which gives a really different mouth feel when chewing the slices.  You may get a little stretch off a hot slice but nothing like what we see in some places.  I'm not sure if this is something similar to what you're looking for?

That sauce sounds fantastic, after I got the dreaded "bland" comment on my last pie, I need to think about amp'ing up my sauce a bit.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 04, 2017, 05:14:27 PM
Gonna start with a pretty standard 56% hydration dough, 2% salt/sugar/oil .07 TF. That was my first screen bake ever so I know it's possible, just gotta hone in on bake specifics and getting that melt. I'm thinking of cubing the mozzarella and pulsing it in the food processor. I want it to mingle with the sauce which I think takes a solid amount of sauce coverage, thin enough dough for a fast boil, and thinking the diced mozz (like that Vito's video I posted from jsaras) will break down faster so I can pull off a quicker bake and keep the pie tender. I lost all my notes with the computer crash but I remember a bit from this bake. Will probably go with the sliced fresh garlic and basil leaves under the cheese, and gonna play with black pepper, crushed red, and sugar in the sauce to try and get a sweet & spicy thing going on. I might grate a little locatelli over the mozz pre bake and hit it with reggiano on the way out. We'll see what happens.
I'm still behind in my diced cheese experimentation. I have the one Capt Bob posted earlier in this thread for the Fontina. My week-day tester-eater is back in skool getting his learn on starting tomorrow, so I can feel more relaxed with wild and crazy tests. All that said, I'm looking forward to seeing where you end up with the cube pulsing thing.

I mince up fresh garlic now on every pie. I stir it into the sauce maybe 5-10 minutes prior to spreading the sauce.  I dig it. Now that my sauce and cheese bubble is going stronger, I'll perhaps expand my herb horizons a bit more. At least to try again.  Everything is so much better with the rapid bubbling. Pepper in all forms, too.

Flirting with the Locatelli again? It's interesting stuff, for sure. I know it's not a cool brand around these parts, but I've grown fond of the Boar's Head and still can't find better for my tastes. I use it at least once on every pie. Usually post-bake.

Anyhow, I am looking forward to seeing how that all ends up. You've posted more than quite a few nice looking NY thin slice style pies. Bake to bake Consistency can always be improved, but I think you are a lot closer than you give yourself credit for. Especially with the variety of things you do. Downright impressive, actually.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 04, 2017, 05:50:52 PM
I'm still behind in my diced cheese experimentation. I have the one Capt Bob posted earlier in this thread for the Fontina. My week-day tester-eater is back in skool getting his learn on starting tomorrow, so I can feel more relaxed with wild and crazy tests. All that said, I'm looking forward to seeing where you end up with the cube pulsing thing.

I mince up fresh garlic now on every pie. I stir it into the sauce maybe 5-10 minutes prior to spreading the sauce.  I dig it. Now that my sauce and cheese bubble is going stronger, I'll perhaps expand my herb horizons a bit more. At least to try again.  Everything is so much better with the rapid bubbling. Pepper in all forms, too.

Flirting with the Locatelli again? It's interesting stuff, for sure. I know it's not a cool brand around these parts, but I've grown fond of the Boar's Head and still can't find better for my tastes. I use it at least once on every pie. Usually post-bake.

Anyhow, I am looking forward to seeing how that all ends up. You've posted more than quite a few nice looking NY thin slice style pies. Bake to bake Consistency can always be improved, but I think you are a lot closer than you give yourself credit for. Especially with the variety of things you do. Downright impressive, actually.

Thanks Roy  :)
Has the minced garlic replaced your granulated use, or are you doing both? How much are you adding?
Yeah I'm messing with it, I'm very conservative with it. I don't want to toss it, seems to be working alright but I cant be as generous as with the reggiano. I want to try the Boars head they just don't sell it in this town, I need to get to a Ralph's or something. Is your sauce usually herb free?

They use really small dices of fresh mozzerella at the pizzaria nearby, their sauce and cheese always seems to mingle well, like the sauce..for lack of a better word..lubricates the melt and allows it to blend together to form this harmony of cheese and sauce.  The cheese doesn't seem to stretch off on the bite, which gives a really different mouth feel when chewing the slices.  You may get a little stretch off a hot slice but nothing like what we see in some places.  I'm not sure if this is something similar to what you're looking for?

That sauce sounds fantastic, after I got the dreaded "bland" comment on my last pie, I need to think about amp'ing up my sauce a bit.

My cheese is never stretchy, even when I use 12 ounces. I'm gonna try part skim and see if that changes anything.

Agh, the B word. Been there. Might just need salt though and not more ingredients. Hard to say. I've had bland sauces with lots of stuff in it, or maybe the word is muddy; and great sauces with just tomato, although I haven't seemed to pull that one off in a while. Tomato sauce is hard for me to nail the salt balance for some reason, I tend to underseason it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 04, 2017, 06:03:48 PM
My cheese is never stretchy, even when I use 12 ounces. I'm gonna try part skim and see if that changes anything.

Agh, the B word. Been there. Might just need salt though and not more ingredients. Hard to say. I've had bland sauces with lots of stuff in it, or maybe the word is muddy; and great sauces with just tomato, although I haven't seemed to pull that one off in a while. Tomato sauce is hard for me to nail the salt balance for some reason, I tend to underseason it.

The part skim definitely will give the stretch.  I was finding that half whole milk/half part skim, or somewhere in that ratio, gave a nice balance when mixed right.  I am discovering as I try out different cheeses they all behave quite differently.  I had some natural and kosher mozerella shreds that were really good but really greasy, no comparison to the great value brand.  My last pie was all great value whole milk mozz and I wasn't impressed with its texture, it just seemed to blend with everything, not quite what I was looking for, but I didnt use small shreds or pieces, it was 1/4oz slices spread across the sauce.  Been thinking about doing tiny dices (like pea size), and just mix it in with the sauce and spread that across the pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2017, 09:41:09 PM
I'm going to focus on cloning this pie I made once. I haven't really nailed this one since. I want to be able to do the same pie consistently like Roy does.

Specifically nailing this melt and a thin, even crust with a rim which is small and tender but not bready in the least. The pie is craveable and easy to eat.

For this 17" size I'm thinking of trying 10 oz cheese diced, baked in the lowest rack position.

I'm looking forward to this!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 04, 2017, 11:28:35 PM
Half the pie was like this and the other half was softer like the second pic. I preferred the softer one though. More crisp, less crunchy than the charred one, which wasn't bitter (to me) but kind of had a "toast" taste that reminds me of that one with rye flour I didn't like.

That crust is way overbaked.  If you're attempting NY pizza, crunchy isn't in the vernacular.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 05, 2017, 07:41:36 AM
That crust is way overbaked.  If you're attempting NY pizza, crunchy isn't in the vernacular.
Sure it is. Whether you want it that way or not dictates how you try to make your own. It helps you decide where you go pizza shopping. But please, do not superimpose your personal preference over the genre. I get what you argue as being your ideal NY style. Even if it is the number #1 selling sub-genre (or take) in the city, it is still nothing more than personal preference. It is not fact. It is preference. Don't be the dreaded #8. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41845.msg406626#msg406626 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41845.msg406626#msg406626)

Why am I wasting my breathe? I could have easily hopped on the HH bashing train months ago, but I did not. I don't know why I am now, except to say that I believe you have a lot to offer. I'd hate to see that ignored due to elitist ideals covering it up. 

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 05, 2017, 10:28:30 AM
That crust is way overbaked.  If you're attempting NY pizza, crunchy isn't in the vernacular.

It was only crunchy on one side, I just rotated it too late. The other side was perfectly done.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 06, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
Here's the before and after of the pie I did the other day with the 10 oz diced cheese. I accidentally weighed out a .085 dough ball instead of .07 ; 100g extra. Also used 100% part skim on this one. Will make a few adjustments next bake and see what happens, this melt was way off from the pie I want to clone. I forgot I made that other pie in my old oven that ran about 100 degrees hotter. I'm gonna try California Gold LMWM and crushed tomatoes since that's what I used on that bake. This was an 8 hour RT dough - was it as flavorful as a multi day CF? I say no.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 06, 2017, 12:49:40 PM
Looks sweet! All day long. that's what I would do with it. leave it on the counter an munch on it all_day_long   ;D!

Which bake protocol was this one?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 06, 2017, 01:06:05 PM
Thanks Roy - Bake was about 8 minutes, on the lowest rack shifted to top rack + broil the last 60-90 seconds.
Not a bad pie but not quite what I was going for. I'm leaving for Mexico tomorrow so might not have a chance to test my ideas for this clone til I get back; but everybody is wanting me to make pizza there so who knows.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 06, 2017, 01:23:14 PM
Have a good trip, Ryan! Send some warm air towards NC? 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 12, 2017, 07:18:32 AM
Ryan, (or anyone watching who does the same thing with the screen)

When using your screen-then-stone method, what's the minimum amount of time that you have to have the screen under the pie before removing it to stone?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on January 19, 2017, 09:30:53 PM
Sure it is. Whether you want it that way or not dictates how you try to make your own. It helps you decide where you go pizza shopping. But please, do not superimpose your personal preference over the genre. I get what you argue as being your ideal NY style. Even if it is the number #1 selling sub-genre (or take) in the city, it is still nothing more than personal preference. It is not fact. It is preference. Don't be the dreaded #8. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41845.msg406626#msg406626 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41845.msg406626#msg406626)

Why am I wasting my breathe? I could have easily hopped on the HH bashing train months ago, but I did not. I don't know why I am now, except to say that I believe you have a lot to offer. I'd hate to see that ignored due to elitist ideals covering it up.

This has nothing to do with being elitist.  I am providing information of what constitutes the texture of a NY slice within a bell curve.  There are certainly the outliers, but if you were to try 100 slice pizzerias in NYC, you'd be hard pressed to find a crunchy slice like that photo unless there was an error or served a burnt reheat.  I am not trying to sound like a jerk but help some of you hard core hobbyists along the journey with many of you not being able to even taste a slice in NYC.   If someone was just doing a one off, I wouldn't comment.   I started a thread on the "fold test" to demonstrate proper NY slice texture on this forum.  There are certain characteristics which define a certain genre of pizza.  For instance, an NP style pie isn't crunchy, but soft and silky.  A Chicago thin is generally not bready, but crunchy. 


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 19, 2017, 11:34:50 PM
This has nothing to do with being elitist.  I am providing information of what constitutes the texture of a NY slice within a bell curve.  There are certainly the outliers, but if you were to try 100 slice pizzerias in NYC, you'd be hard pressed to find a crunchy slice like that photo unless there was an error or served a burnt reheat.  I am not trying to sound like a jerk but help some of you hard core hobbyists along the journey with many of you not being able to even taste a slice in NYC.   If someone was just doing a one off, I wouldn't comment.   I started a thread on the "fold test" to demonstrate proper NY slice texture on this forum.  There are certain characteristics which define a certain genre of pizza.  For instance, an NP style pie isn't crunchy, but soft and silky.  A Chicago thin is generally not bready, but crunchy.
I don't care how you spin this. You are still doing nothing more than promoting your opinion (or favorite) as standard. That how it will be for you until you include the one offs or the outliers you mentioned. The neighborhood joints who do NY slightly differently than you would. Oh and let me guess. If a pie cannot be folded in a manner that meets your opinion of how to fold a pie, it isn't NY style?

Are you also suggesting that a pie that has a crunch cannot be folded? I hope not. A lot of people like that texture in their folded NY style pizza. Personally, I think it's awesome, next level stuff.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: NYYC on January 20, 2017, 02:49:28 AM
I don't care how you spin this. You are still doing nothing more than promoting your opinion (or favorite) as standard. That how it will be for you until you include the one offs or the outliers you mentioned. The neighborhood joints who do NY slightly differently than you would. Oh and let me guess. If a pie cannot be folded in a manner that meets your opinion of how to fold a pie, it isn't NY style?

The word standard, by definition, doesn't include one offs or outliers so you just contradicted yourself. The standard NY style pizza is foldable and not crunchy. That particular pizza has been well documented and has certain criteria that need to be met to be considered a standard, typical, average, however you want to call it, NY style pizza. HH certainly didn't come up with those criteria either but he knows what they are. You clearly don't.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 20, 2017, 08:06:50 AM
The word standard, by definition, doesn't include one offs or outliers so you just contradicted yourself. The standard NY style pizza is foldable and not crunchy. That particular pizza has been well documented and has certain criteria that need to be met to be considered a standard, typical, average, however you want to call it, NY style pizza. HH certainly didn't come up with those criteria either but he knows what they are. You clearly don't.
I guess pizza genre-Nazis have their on party, too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on January 20, 2017, 08:28:51 AM
Please try to keep things civil and not turn Ryan's thread into a battleground.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on January 20, 2017, 01:03:58 PM
I don't care how you spin this. You are still doing nothing more than promoting your opinion (or favorite) as standard. That how it will be for you until you include the one offs or the outliers you mentioned. The neighborhood joints who do NY slightly differently than you would. Oh and let me guess. If a pie cannot be folded in a manner that meets your opinion of how to fold a pie, it isn't NY style?

Are you also suggesting that a pie that has a crunch cannot be folded? I hope not. A lot of people like that texture in their folded NY style pizza. Personally, I think it's awesome, next level stuff.

I guess pizza genre-Nazis have their on party, too.

Harry, My sincerest apologies. You did not deserve to be called a genre Nazi - or any names - and was wrong of me to do so. I let <a mindless attack - poor forum behavior - whatever> get under my skin that I found here bright and early this morning. I'm very laid back until attacked. Driven, but laid back. Strange combo, I admit. There's a stereotypical forum posturing argumentative type of thing that I do not take well. It should not bother me, but it does and that was my bad.

I hope we can continue this discussion elsewhere. Especially as I would like to understand how you would describe the very bottom layer of your ideal NY style pizza. I'm pretty sure we're a lot closer than either one of us will admit, save for where to draw the line on inclusion/exclusion. As much as I enjoy what is most commonly found back home, I have grown very fond of one of the outlaying sub-genres and have been working for well over a year to get there in a home setting.

I invite you to feel free to chat with me about this on my NY thread so we do not clog up Ryan's. Just don't look at the last week's worth of envelope pushing experiments and fridge failures and let that dissuade you. They were not good pizza. (well, one was...)   :-[  Alas, I am not afraid to share failures as I am old enough to know that I often learn more from them then your successes. That, and I learn more from pushing the boundaries and breaking-points. I learn little from repeating the same working formulation and method time and time again.


Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 08, 2017, 09:34:06 PM
Really unimpressive bake tonight. Made 3 pies, pretty disappointed with all of them. I'm out of my element - no scale, never used this oven, different ingredients. Oh well, was hoping to put a few really good pies together for the kids, was planning on a pretty smooth bake but turned out otherwise. I've always had good luck with gas ovens but this one had issues. I couldn't get an even undercrust at all. It was burning in the middle and white towards the edge. I didn't even take a pic because every slice was different. I'm not sure how to even fix that. The rack system on this oven is super wonky so I couldn't move racks, and to top it all off the pies were taking like 14 minutes to bake. All I can think of is this oven might not work with a screen, may need a stone hearth.

Sorry for whining. Pretty weak attempt after not making a pie for a month. I guess you never know what's gonna happen when cooking in an unfamiliar oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on February 08, 2017, 09:41:57 PM
Pies don't look bad at all (in fact look quite good). Hang in there, you'll figure this situation out.  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2017, 09:43:04 PM
Ryan,

Was the gas oven a temporary thing or will you be stuck with it and have to relearn everything?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 08, 2017, 10:12:49 PM
Pies don't look bad at all (in fact look quite good). Hang in there, you'll figure this situation out.  :chef:

Thanks Matt, I'm really not sure which route to go. I wanted to show my uncle how to make pizza. I figure sugar is an easy addition to increase browning, but the uneven bake was really strange. Possibly shift the rack a few spaces up? The rack is moveable, but not really while the oven is hot.

Ryan,

Was the gas oven a temporary thing or will you be stuck with it and have to relearn everything?

Peter

Peter,

Just temporary (thank goodness) I extended my stay in Mexico and finally found everything to make a pizza. Surprisingly not easy to find yeast at all. And the store that did carry it didn't have flour. Go figure  :)
All the flour seems to be relatively low protein (for pizza)

Gotta say I feel really uneasy making dough without my scale.   :-X
Volumetric measuring is for cavemen! I really don't want to follow any recipe anymore written around volume.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 08, 2017, 10:26:07 PM
Sorry to hear of the rough maiden voyage with the oven. I hope the next ones end better, or you get back to your oven before going nuts. The bottoms notwithstanding, it appears to look pretty good.

edit: Dang, is that the rack position you had to bake with gas and no stone?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 08, 2017, 10:39:21 PM
Sorry to hear of the rough maiden voyage with the oven. I hope the next ones end better, or you get back to your oven before going nuts. The bottoms notwithstanding, it appears to look pretty good.

edit: Dang, is that the rack position you had to bake with gas and no stone?

Yeah, that's the lowest position. Does it seem bad? I didn't add any sugar to the dough because I figured it was high enough to get a relatively even bake but it didn't want to get top color at all. I think it needs sugar but it probably would have burnt these pies even more without something else done differently. The center of the pies were burning but the edges were white, I was peeking under the dough and it looked like it needed more time, little did I know it was black beyond where I was looking lol.

We talk about sauce/cheese boil - I'm not sure it ever happened. Just a real uneven, weak bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on February 09, 2017, 12:51:07 AM
An 18" stone would be nice if it would fit!  What you showed looks good Ryan, I like the pepperoni a lot with the cheese.  Perhaps screen on stone then move to stone after its set?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 09, 2017, 06:55:18 AM
Yeah, that's the lowest position. Does it seem bad? I didn't add any sugar to the dough because I figured it was high enough to get a relatively even bake but it didn't want to get top color at all. I think it needs sugar but it probably would have burnt these pies even more without something else done differently. The center of the pies were burning but the edges were white, I was peeking under the dough and it looked like it needed more time, little did I know it was black beyond where I was looking lol.

We talk about sauce/cheese boil - I'm not sure it ever happened. Just a real uneven, weak bake.
My initial response was something like, "Wow, that is wicked low!". I'm not so sure that's any lower than the unofficial lowest point in mine, where I drop to in order to get those thin crust, big brown crunch bottoms.

I wonder if the radiant heat coming up from the bottom in the middle where it's bent up made the centers worse? I know it looks like only 3/4 of an inch, but that's a big amount when only talking a couple inches total.

I cannot bend my neck down enough to see bottom browning. I have to rely on the rigid lift test and top-side bake indicators. I've been fooled many times.

Does you uncle have any cast iron cookware?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 09, 2017, 10:42:02 AM
An 18" stone would be nice if it would fit!  What you showed looks good Ryan, I like the pepperoni a lot with the cheese.  Perhaps screen on stone then move to stone after its set?

A stone was originally the plan but then I need a big peel and haven't found one down here. I did see one for like a 12" pie. If the tools were laying around I could make a peel, but I figured the screen would be easiest without all the gear. Plus I'm trying to come up with a procedure so my uncle can make big pies for the kids. I figure he won't have to try and learn to launce since he's not as obsessive as I with pizza making. Screen to stone could work - I figure the stone will soak up that heat and balance out but not sure where to look for cordierite. That's what I want, right? Tons of stone stores down here but mostly for finishing.

Still need a scale, the plan was to use a kilo bag of flour and do everything else by volume. Figured that would be a lot closer than without, but they ended up picking up a 5 lb bag of Bob's red mill from some American market down here so I had to wing it. Apparently they had King Arthur but no bread flour - that would have been nice, I use that all the time.

My initial response was something like, "Wow, that is wicked low!". I'm not so sure that's any lower than the unofficial lowest point in mine, where I drop to in order to get those thin crust, big brown crunch bottoms.

I wonder if the radiant heat coming up from the bottom in the middle where it's bent up made the centers worse? I know it looks like only 3/4 of an inch, but that's a big amount when only talking a couple inches total.

I cannot bend my neck down enough to see bottom browning. I have to rely on the rigid lift test and top-side bake indicators. I've been fooled many times.

Does you uncle have any cast iron cookware?

Thanks for this Roy. I guess I was thinking, it's still higher than the lowest rack slot so it would be okay with no sugar. You can see the inside of the oven has grooves for a normal rack, and this wonky rack was a little bit above the lowest position where a normal rack would go. I use the lowest spot in my electric oven, and an even lower slot in my cousins GE gas convection oven; so I figured it was all good, but you might be on to something with that floor sticking up. Ive never seen anything like the undercrust, every slice different. Some burnt with others completely white. Here's a pic of the leftovers to give an idea. I apologize for the horrible iPad pics!

What do you guys think? Should I try sugar or should I try the center rack position? I'm thinking possibly both.
Thanks all!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 09, 2017, 11:13:43 AM
Just some more amateur thoughts. Blurting stuff out.

I was actually going to suggest an upside down cast iron skillet, direct bake, if your uncle has one. Lower temp or shorter bake. Smaller area to try and keep even. More even heat disbursement. Much easier to manage/launch an 11-incher. The upside down thing puts the bake surface a couple more inches away from that floor.

Another thought is to rig some sort of bracing up to get the rack up higher. Maybe even food safe bricks of some sort, like I did with the seasoning thing on the grill a few weeks ago.

Or, one of those grill stones, with the metal brace thing that helps get the pie a couple of inches away from the flame.

could rotation go a long way, assuming some of what we see is localized hot spots spreading out over 10 - 14 minutes?

I see the top sides and I see the bottoms and see a starting point, not failure.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 09, 2017, 11:39:44 AM
Just some more amateur thoughts. Blurting stuff out.

I was actually going to suggest an upside down cast iron skillet, direct bake, if your uncle has one. Lower temp or shorter bake. Smaller area to try and keep even. More even heat disbursement. Much easier to manage/launch an 11-incher. The upside down thing puts the bake surface a couple more inches away from that floor.

Another thought is to rig some sort of bracing up to get the rack up higher. Maybe even food safe bricks of some sort, like I did with the seasoning thing on the grill a few weeks ago.

Or, one of those grill stones, with the metal brace thing that helps get the pie a couple of inches away from the flame.

could rotation go a long way, assuming some of what we see is localized hot spots spreading out over 10 - 14 minutes?

I see the top sides and I see the bottoms and see a starting point, not failure.

Sorry, forgot to mention no cast iron. I did rotate around 5-6 minutes in. The rack can be moved, just not really while it's hot. I'm thinking moving to the middle position might help even things out.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 09, 2017, 12:20:18 PM
Sorry, forgot to mention no cast iron. I did rotate around 5-6 minutes in. The rack can be moved, just not really while it's hot. I'm thinking moving to the middle position might help even things out.
Probably right on that one.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on February 09, 2017, 12:21:26 PM
Sorry, forgot to mention no cast iron. I did rotate around 5-6 minutes in. The rack can be moved, just not really while it's hot. I'm thinking moving to the middle position might help even things out.

I think the middle rack is a good idea.  Also yep, I think the cordierite stones are what you want, I have a 1/2" thick 16.5" stone, the things a beaut and gives real consistent results, wasn't cheap though like $35 on amazon.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 09, 2017, 12:43:40 PM
Thanks! I'm gonna try that and 1 or 2% of sugar, hopefully within the next few days.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 10, 2017, 09:49:31 PM
Lol I'll just call this American style since the crust came out so thick. The slices themselves aren't too bad but the rim is definitely American. So weird making pizzas without my scale. Didn't burn this one but still took 14 minutes. Even with adding sugar this time. I moved to the center rack too. Oh we'll, giving me some ideas to work on my own pies again when I get home.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on February 11, 2017, 12:36:55 AM
I'm liking it Ryan, how was the texture with the long bake?  Center rack looking much better, was the bottom fairly even coloring?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 11, 2017, 07:55:27 AM
Everything was better than the last test, but still lacking. Texture was okay, the crust was not as dry as you might expect for the long bake, but it seemed like the sauce disappeared. There's not a ton of room in the fridge here so I did another RT dough which was lacking flavor. The bottom was pretty even. I was able to push the oven floor back down and flush so it's not sticking up, and I put a cookie sheet on the floor to soak up any random heat coming from the gas burner. I'm pretty surprised the bake time didn't improve though, I was hoping to shave a few minutes off with the sugar addition.

Not sure what to do regarding these long bakes other than add more sugar, or change plans and try something different like a cracker crust that doesn't suffer from an extended bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on February 11, 2017, 09:38:43 AM
While I'm supportive of your quest to figure out a NY bake in this oven, if ultimately you're looking for an easy process for your uncle to follow, do you think a pan pizza would work as it would also fall into the longer bake?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 11, 2017, 10:06:09 AM
Looks good from the top and bottom. You said too thick. Was that in the bottom crust section too, or just the outer rim. One of the danger ones for mine is that it can get too puffy. I've made a few that screamed national chain to me. I don't like when that happens.

I don't know what I'm doing yet, obviously, but if it was me, I would find an in between spot if possible. Then I would try to use less water. Maybe less mass, too. If the rim and undercrust is puffy, then even cooler water than normal. The last thing, btw, is one of my quick fixes in the context of my own strange regimen.

I prefer a smaller outer rim myself, but outer rims can be useful with a nice garlic OO thing, like for garlic knot sauce or something.  :drool:   Not all NY versions have small crusts. I have not idea how one goes from being acceptable in the NY rhelm to am American style, but I hate it when it happens. It goes something like this. "This is no @#@% @@#%% %% than <XXXX> @@#@ <XXXX'X> @#%@# <XXXX> some %%@%#%@ could %%%*##@ out in their @@@%###*&* sleep.  $&*# me!" Thank goodness that's rare.  ;D 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 11, 2017, 10:14:26 AM
While I'm supportive of your quest to figure out a NY bake in this oven, if ultimately you're looking for an easy process for your uncle to follow, do you think a pan pizza would work as it would also fall into the longer bake?

That was my first thought since I couldn't find a screen for quite a while. I was thinking Sicilian but he doesn't really like them. He really wants to make a pizza like what I make when him and the fam visit. I told him it's going to take a while to learn how to stretch a .07 TF skin to 18 inches, especially with only all purpose flour. There's an American market with a Bob's red mill display, I should see if they have VWG.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 11, 2017, 10:35:54 AM
Looks good from the top and bottom. You said too thick. Was that in the bottom crust section too, or just the outer rim. One of the danger ones for mine is that it can get too puffy. I've made a few that screamed national chain to me. I don't like when that happens.

I don't know what I'm doing yet, obviously, but if it was me, I would find an in between spot if possible. Then I would try to use less water. Maybe less mass, too. If the rim and undercrust is puffy, then even cooler water than normal. The last thing, btw, is one of my quick fixes in the context of my own strange regimen.

I prefer a smaller outer rim myself, but outer rims can be useful with a nice garlic OO thing, like for garlic knot sauce or something.  :drool:   Not all NY versions have small crusts. I have not idea how one goes from being acceptable in the NY rhelm to am American style, but I hate it when it happens. It goes something like this. "This is no @#@% @@#%% %% than <XXXX> @@#@ <XXXX'X> @#%@# <XXXX> some %%@%#%@ could %%%*##@ out in their @@@%###*&* sleep.  $&*# me!" Thank goodness that's rare.  ;D

Roy,

The actual slices weren't bad just the rim was quite thick. I thought I took a profile shot but I guess not. Funny, I thought about doing a garlic oil on the crust too, especially since the crust was a bit bland. Also hard to dial in salt without a scale so that's there too. At least when I get a kilo bag of flour I will be able to get a lot closer, even without a scale. I'm using a 5 lb bag of Bob's red mill flour and don't even know my dough weight. I figure I should get 3 .075 TF dough balls from a kilo flour batch though, and my consistency should jump way up regarding salt and yeast amount, even if I don't come across a scale. Would be nice to check the dough ball weight though when dividing so one doesn't come out radically thin, and vice versa.

Also, the cheese seemed to do that thing where it goes from melting to browning and never hitting the oily stage in between. I'll do a larger grate which should keep it from browning so much. I tried this smaller one to see if it would oil off but it never really did.

I was feeling inspired by this pie but didn't come anywhere close lol.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 11, 2017, 11:55:33 AM
Whose pie is that in the picture?

How are you doing your mixes down there? Food roc, stand mixer, all hand, etc?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 11, 2017, 12:59:40 PM
That pie is from Rotten City Pizza, San Francisco. I was slice snooping a few days ago.

I'm doing everything by hand here Roy. Leftover slice wasn't too bad though!  :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 11, 2017, 02:33:34 PM
Impressive. Changed everything and still making an edible pie on second try.  :chef: :chef:

Was there a sort of hydration rest, or a short autolyse period early on? I was thinking ahead how easier it *might* be on your uncle if it had a lot of inactivity based development going on. Kind of a "reate an ugly glob, let it rest and then play with the softer, drier dough" thing. Also might allow for less hydration. (this is all conjecture from someone who does not know, and kind of curious in the event I ever try such a thing.)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 11, 2017, 06:21:40 PM
Lol edible, but far from great. The biggest problem is the lack of the juice factor. Gotta go heavier on the sauce for that lengthy bake. I added water in several increments because I know how easy it is to go way over. Yesterdays pie was actually a sponge for a few hours as I wasn't sure what I was going to do, so about 60% was pre hydrated.

That's a good idea, to use biochemical gluten development. He prefers my CF dough so I'm gonna try to find a container to set him up for a 2 day CF.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 19, 2017, 09:35:23 AM
This is not something that had crossed my mind, but I think the flour I used may be unmalted, which could explain the lack of browning. I did add a little sugar last time, but since I did not know my flour weight I don't really know how much went in.

I made a dough on Friday using one of these these kilo bags. I added 5 tsp which should be around 2% according to the dough calculator. The flour is a finely milled AP, mostly for flour tortillas and pastries I guess. Possibly similar to a 00 consistency. Probably not the best for NY  :-\
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 20, 2017, 08:44:47 PM
My best attempt so far at an 18" NY style in Mexico.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on February 20, 2017, 09:32:35 PM
Wow! That pie would look great anywhere!

Is this your usual amount of cheese, or a bit more?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 20, 2017, 09:47:41 PM
Awesome, dude! What was that, like 3 tries?  8) 8)  Looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2017, 10:06:29 PM
Ryan,

Great job!  Looks delicious!!

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on February 20, 2017, 10:07:37 PM
Ryan,

Great job!  Looks delicious!!

Norma

 ^^^ ^^^!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: goosta on February 20, 2017, 10:37:28 PM
Great looking pie!  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 20, 2017, 11:37:13 PM
Thanks all!  :chef:

Matt,

I don't have access to a scale right now so I'm not sure. The cheese was Kirkland part skim. Used this cheese the last few bakes, not that into it. Could be cause my bakes are a bit long in this oven, but I prefer having access to Saputo Gold. It's more buttery and flavorful. I used some Mexican Parmesan that is pretty sweet. It's actually quite good, but I don't think it's right for pizza. Better for pasta.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hodgey1 on February 21, 2017, 07:30:06 AM
Great looking pie!  :drool:
^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on February 21, 2017, 09:25:18 AM
Nice slice Ryan!  Cheese melt looks pretty good.  Was it stringy or did it melt up good with your bake time?  I agree the kirkland LMPS really needs some help in the flavor dept.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 21, 2017, 10:49:38 AM
Thanks Hodgey, Hermit  :chef:

Hermit, it had a bit of stretch, my bake time was still fairly long at about 12 minutes. Some would say this mozz is overcooked. I don't know, it oiled off fairly well, but did brown a bit to get to that point. This oven really needs a stone. The gas burner is a single unit, running horizontally under the oven floor, and causes hot spots in the very middle of the pie.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on February 21, 2017, 09:07:17 PM
...Some would say this mozz is overcooked. I don't know, it oiled off fairly well, but did brown a bit to get to that point...

While browning like that may not be typical of NY, Harry recently posted a pie like that on the melt thread. I grew up eating pan pies with browning - it adds another dimension of flavor. All depends on what you're going for.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 21, 2017, 09:24:29 PM
While browning like that may not be typical of NY, Harry recently posted a pie like that on the melt thread. I grew up eating pan pies with browning - it adds another dimension of flavor. All depends on what you're going for.

I considered calling it "rockaway style"  ;D

I agree, it is a different flavor. The biggest problem with this pie was it was a bit too juicy for this thin crust, especially considering the flour used. I'll be returning home shortly, excited to work on my pies! Lots of ideas to try.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 22, 2017, 05:17:38 PM
Some inspiration from PM member bakeshack and his hybrid WFO pies. :pizza:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: PizzaManic on February 23, 2017, 04:41:10 AM
Drooooling   :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

Is that baked in a WFO?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 23, 2017, 08:22:59 AM
Drooooling   :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

Is that baked in a WFO?

Yeah, WFO sub 4 minute bake.

Just to make it clear those aren't my pies, I just think they are great. I like to read old threads on here for inspiration.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 24, 2017, 09:13:05 PM
Pizza Friday

(and cheese sticks )
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on February 24, 2017, 09:19:22 PM
Sweet!! :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on February 24, 2017, 09:42:56 PM
Pizza Friday

(and cheese sticks )

Very nice.  Now get a deck oven and sell 100 pies a day.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on February 24, 2017, 09:46:50 PM
 :drool: nice bakes there Ryan, what time/temp did the pie run?  That's an 18"?  Love the color top and bottom.  How are you liking the mexico grocery ingredients?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 24, 2017, 09:52:34 PM
Sweet!!!!  That bottom got a lot more evenly done this time. You're beginning to make peace with that oven.  8) 8)

Everything looks just wonderful.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on February 24, 2017, 10:02:23 PM
...
Everything looks just wonderful.

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 24, 2017, 10:41:59 PM
Sweet!! :chef:

 Cheers Bob!

Very nice.  Now get a deck oven and sell 100 pies a day.

Thanks!
Like a lot of members on here, it's crossed my mind. The pizza industry seems tough, although I do think it's possible to do well in the right location just because a real 18" pie is such a rarity in much of the country. I quite like Walter's model. Varasano's airport model is pretty interesting too. I don't think I really have enough experience , but I would learn quickly if I was doing 100 a day!

:drool: nice bakes there Ryan, what time/temp did the pie run?  That's an 18"?  Love the color top and bottom.  How are you liking the mexico grocery ingredients?

Thanks man, yeah 18" :)
Not sure on the temp I usually do pizzas at full blast, bake time was still kinda long as you can tell in the melt, although I think part of that is the nature of part skim.

Most of these ingredients are from Costco, Kirkland LMPS, Kirkland tomatoes, Parmesan, flour, DOP olive oil, almost all of it really  :D

I think you could make quite a good pizza with ingredients from there down here, but I would probably substitute a few things. They have a stronger flour but it's in a 44 kilo bag, and I'd like to try their other cheeses like the Natural & Kosher you use. They have that in slices and shreds here. DOP Reggiano and Grana Padano. S&W tomatoes.  I haven't bought any of these ingredients, I'm just making the pizzas; but those are what I would prefer to use/try.

Sweet!!!!  That bottom got a lot more evenly done this time. You're beginning to make peace with that oven.  8) 8)

Everything looks just wonderful.


Thanks Roy! Slowly but surely learning the best protocol for it. I have a few ideas to improve things, mostly by reducing the bake time; but this may be my last pie while I'm here. Or I might do one more round. We'll see.

^^^

Cheers Matt!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 25, 2017, 12:48:35 AM
Open question - is fresh basil a legitimate NY sauce ingredient?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on February 25, 2017, 01:00:13 AM
Open question - is fresh basil a legitimate NY sauce ingredient?

No.  Which is part of the whole delinking of the Naples being origin of NY Pizza conspiracy.   NY pizza post ww2, which is what is NY deck oven pizza is mostly Sicilian. 

Nearly every slice pizzeria I know does not include basil.  Past 50 years, you are more apt to finding oregano and variants like marjoram in the workflow.

To this day, you will not find a dried basil shaker in a NY slice joint.  It's oregano only.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 25, 2017, 12:51:57 PM
No.  Which is part of the whole delinking of the Naples being origin of NY Pizza conspiracy.   NY pizza post ww2, which is what is NY deck oven pizza is mostly Sicilian. 

Nearly every slice pizzeria I know does not include basil.  Past 50 years, you are more apt to finding oregano and variants like marjoram in the workflow.

To this day, you will not find a dried basil shaker in a NY slice joint.  It's oregano only.

What about fennel?
This article http://www.saveur.com/article/Travels/Sicily-Flavors-of-Sicily claims it "defines Sicilian cooking"

Or citrus? You've mentioned the addition of "tart fruit juice" before as a sauce ingredient.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on February 25, 2017, 01:14:32 PM
What about fennel?
This article http://www.saveur.com/article/Travels/Sicily-Flavors-of-Sicily claims it "defines Sicilian cooking"

Or citrus? You've mentioned the addition of "tart fruit juice" before as a sauce ingredient.

Not saying you can't add whatever you want, just saying basil wasn't really a thing on NY slices or in the sauce and again, I'm speaking within a bell curve.  Fennel isn't a common ingredient either in NY slices.  Unless you get a sausage slice.

When the NY Margherita pizza came out in the 90's, which was basically a homage to old Neapolitan style preparations within a NY crust and deck oven, you got your basil and deleted the oregano. 
Same goes for Grandma pies.  Both pies are basically crushed San Marzano style plum tomatoes with nothing more than salt and pepper, fresh mozzarella, and fresh cut basil.

I didn't say "tart fruit juice" was a common ingredient, I asked if anyone could confirm the rumor that New Park Pizzeria in Queens used it.

If you use Stanislaus like 711, it's already tart.  The tomatoes are tart, but they also add more natural citric acid.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 25, 2017, 01:22:18 PM
josh123, i agree, just adding canned tomato whether san marzano, jersey or CA tomatoes with some dried herbs and salt won't get you the same kind of sauce you find in some of the better pizzerias in NYC.  i believe there is a place for fresh uncooked canned tomatoes in pizzas like margherita style and many operators use it on their nyc style pies, but the old school pizzerias in nyc still use a cooked sauce or a hybrid mixing cooked and uncooked.  there is usually a protein based glutamate, some places used to use anchovy filet or paste as a glutamate, or parmigiano reggiano, or pork bones, or beef stock.. many just use monosodium glutamate products/cubes/powder now.  next, an acid ie lemon juice or tart fruit juice, or red wine vinegar.  a sweetener is also added, usually sugar or honey.  and then dried or fresh herbs, primarily oregano and basil.  salt and pepper.  maybe a little garlic.  simmered, and sometimes fresh canned puree added when finished for brightness.  most new places don't do this anymore because the workflow is too arduous and use out of the can products.

Well when you said it in an NY sauce thread (quote above) you made it sound like a common ingredient.

I use 7/11 sometimes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on February 25, 2017, 01:30:43 PM
Well when you said it in an NY sauce thread (quote above) you made it sound like a common ingredient.

I use 7/11 sometimes.

There are certainly some faults with my original description from last summer.  After much research with pizzerias, I have discovered alot of new things which appear in my recent posts.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 25, 2017, 01:43:29 PM
I've used lemon juice to achieve tartness. A VERY small amount. The miss? Having that juice come through in the flavor. I switched to try straight Citric Acid, which worked better, but not something I would consider "reaching a goal". In the end, I got the tomatoes to pop through with a rather painstaking bit by bit thinning of the sauce and increasing ingredients to combination to push it out. You've seen my recipe. Nothing high in it. No more added citrus anything.

One thing I didn't try that I had wanted to try was a minute amount of cayenne. not for the flavor, but for how small amounts pop a flavor out. Kind of like that elderly church lady telling someone that her Lemon Squares has hot sauce in it, and how she puts that "sh*t in everything!" As I thought about the Citric Acid thing, wasn't just helping to pop the flavors through? (or out?)  Anyhow, baby steps - I stopped at two forms of pepper. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 25, 2017, 02:25:44 PM
It's all good Harry, I was just curious as I'm not super familiar with Sicilian cooking and I had read about this tomato sauce which seemed interesting. https://www.splendidtable.org/recipes/lynnes-sweet-and-pungent-sicilian-sauce

Would you still say the best NY joints are cooking their sauce?

Roy,

What do you think about white pepper in sauce? I've seen it mentioned a few times.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on February 25, 2017, 02:46:06 PM
It's all good Harry, I was just curious as I'm not super familiar with Sicilian cooking and I had read about this tomato sauce which seemed interesting. https://www.splendidtable.org/recipes/lynnes-sweet-and-pungent-sicilian-sauce

Would you still say the best NY joints are cooking their sauce?


Some still do, but most don't cook the sauce anymore.  Instead, they use a pre made canned pizza sauce in paste form, like Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce or Full Red, etc mixed with a fresher ground tomato like 711 or whole tomatoes.  Any paste product like Saporito is by definition cooked for extended period of time.  It doesn't become paste without cooking.  The concentrated form of tomato adds to the umami factor in NY sauce along with other things.

There is also a little known secret, a dark secret in the heritage of NY pizza, but no longer exists.  Back in the day, during the crime ridden 70's, pizzerias were adding a secret ingredient that borrowed the expression "I could tell you, but then I"d have to kill you."   That ingredient was.... opiates also known as Heroin.

NY pizzerias were used as fronts by the Sicilian mafia to move 1650 pounds of heroin worth $1.6 billion in street value *at the time* between 1975 and 1984 by the Bonanno crime family (who interesting also controlled Grande cheese company).   Massive amounts of heroin were shipped and stored in pizzeria store rooms, and eventually someone decided maybe it would make a good sauce ingredient.  Sure enough, pizzerias were using trace amounts of this poppy opiate in their sauces!  When some of us look back and think, pizza just isn't the same as it was, there may be good reason!

Using heroin in food not only existed within pizzamaking, but in nearby Chinatown as Chinatown and Little Italy were neighbors.  Until recently, heroin and opiates were still found in Chinese restaurants, esp in the UK.  Back in the day, it was common expression to say, eat Chinese food and you'll be hungry again in an hour.  (It may have been the comedown from the effects of the drug)

https://munchies.vice.com/en/articles/the-dark-side-of-the-pie-heroin-mob-cheese-and-new-york-pizza
http://www.nytimes.com/1987/03/03/nyregion/17-found-guilty-in-pizza-trial-of-a-drug-ring.html

http://metro.co.uk/2016/01/23/restaurants-in-china-put-opium-in-the-food-to-keep-customers-hooked-5640022/
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on February 25, 2017, 02:47:19 PM
....
Roy,

What do you think about white pepper in sauce? I've seen it mentioned a few times.
Dude, I ain't got no clue on that one. closest I ever came was that 5-pepper blend thing I tried a few times.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on February 25, 2017, 06:35:56 PM
I've cooked blended 7/11s to paste before to get that umami but I'll get some extra heavy purée from Smart & Final to try mixing in.

I don't have any opiates to mix in, but the Casomorphin in the cheese usually drives that home anyways  ;)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 06, 2017, 09:58:27 PM
5 hour dough 60% HR KABF
San Marzano tomatoes, Boars Head LMWM mozzarella, Parmigiano Reggiano

6 minute bake @ 525 on stone + convection
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 07, 2017, 12:18:03 AM
Nice pie Ryan.  I'm sure you're glad to be cooking pizza quickly again =)  Is this a 16"?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 11:05:10 AM
Thanks! This is 12" 250g. I made 3 of these but they went fast so I was only able to grab a pic of this last one. This pizza was really pretty good for a short same day rise, I thought. I got good flavor development from the stone + convection bake. It was definitely better than my recent screen bakes. My cousin only has a 13" pizza stone, so we just need to get a bigger stone here to work with.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 07, 2017, 12:05:50 PM
Thanks! This is 12" 250g. I made 3 of these but they went fast so I was only able to grab a pic of this last one. This pizza was really pretty good for a short same day rise, I thought. I got good flavor development from the stone + convection bake. It was definitely better than my recent screen bakes. My cousin only has a 13" pizza stone, so we just need to get a bigger stone here to work with.

Wow what a difference in bake time using the stone versus screen in that gas oven!  I had no idea the stone could make that big of a difference.  What did you think of the overall texture going from the long bake on a screen to the short bake on stone?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 04:12:53 PM
The stone bake is way better and the whole pie tastes better as a result of a more cohesive bake and more intense boil between the cheese, sauce, and dough. This is my cousins oven, I left MX a few days ago. I've always had good bakes out of this oven, the first post in this thread is from this gas convection Fridgidaire. I like the bakes from here much more than my home oven. I'm going to try to get them set up with an 18 X 18" stone and a basic dough formula and procedure.

The only real issue is my sauce was a bit thin yesterday for this short bake, I used whole peeled but I'll try crushed next time for this oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 07, 2017, 04:17:09 PM
Looks yummy. You're holding out, though. Boar's Head? Do tell. I've not done a whole pie with it. Will, though. Waiting for it to go on sale at the local grocery house and will pester the manager to order a few loaves at sale price. I used to use it thin sliced as part of my old strategy in the center and it was awesome. Only about 1/4 of the cheese was BH due to cost.

I just happened to have done a convection bake on my bricks this weekend. I want to try again before I let out the time it took. It was either exceptionally efficient or I made a mistake type of number, and I want to be sure. 

It's suggested that a pie bakes from bottom up, and the bricks with all that stored heat combined with the convection was intense really fast. I would not have tried it except that I remembered either Jeff or Josh(or both) having luck with it. I tried it last Spring and it was not good. Much has changed since last Spring, and your broiler advice turned out well again. So why not?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 07, 2017, 04:23:27 PM
Ryan, you make an awesome relative cooking up pies at your families homes!  The neighbor has invited us up to her home to make some pizzas, I should take her up on it just so I can see how things go in a different environment.  I need to try a pie or two on stone again.  This screen has made a lazy pizza maker out of me  :-[
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 05:33:46 PM
Roy I use Boars Head when I bake here at my cousins. It's expensive and I don't think it's better than Saputo Gold, but for a good quality mozz that is relatively easy to find it's a good choice. The price is high though, I think it was 7 or 8.99 a lb. I used deli slices, I might try grating a pound of it next time I use it, though I was pretty happy with my melt.

I've had really good luck with convection here. The stone is on the floor and the convection gives a very impressive even bake, really makes up for the high ceiling height IMO for a more deck oven like bake. I may try 500F next time and see what happens, these were going in about 6 minutes at 525/550 no sugar in the dough. The stone bake added a lot of flavor to the relatively short ferment, I was quite impressed. Nice and juicy too, not dried up - although these toppings have a good amount of moisture so that may also play a part - I'll have to try a classic cheese slice. Hope to try more bakes here soon.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 05:37:29 PM
Ryan, you make an awesome relative cooking up pies at your families homes!  The neighbor has invited us up to her home to make some pizzas, I should take her up on it just so I can see how things go in a different environment.  I need to try a pie or two on stone again.  This screen has made a lazy pizza maker out of me  :-[

The screen is easy, but the sauce boil and char spots from the stone really made a big difference. I've been lazy too using it but I was pretty impressed by watching these pizzas cook last night.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 12:51:30 AM
Made two pizzas tonight in the gas convection oven, I guess I didn't get any pictures but the bakes came out excellent. Perfect color top and bottom at 500 convection and the stone on the floor. I used Muir Glen organic ground tomatoes with salt, pepper, oregano, and fresh basil, Saputo Gold mozzarella and Boars Head reggiano.

I think I have a resource for All Trumps and Grande and will probably try those ingredients soon.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 05:50:32 PM
Well apparently my pizza stone broke into 3 pieces while I was gone, so I baked on screen on my inverted Sicilian/focaccia pan, before pulling the screen to bake directly on the pan.

Today's bake reaffirmed many things for me. The sauce boil is crucial and if the pizza is not cooking intensely within 2 minutes the flavor will not develop properly. In some home scenarios you definitely may need to precook sauce to develop that savory tomato flavor.
This boil also effects cheese melt/flavor and crust flavor. It also serves to get enough oven spring to seal the dough from too much moisture penetration.

Also, I think I might prefer less cheese. Although I can appreciate the giant slices Harry has been posting, with cheese flowing off the side, I may be more into a lighter, mottled, tomato-pie-ish style pizza. I'm going to mess with some lower cheese amounts again. I might try a Joe & Pat's or Pizza Town style cheese application again. The trick is to use enough sauce so it doesn't dry out and become miserable. I've made that mistake in the past.

I powdered up the rest of my Locatelli pecorino Romano in the trusty $20 Hamilton Beach food processor. It took a little longer than I expected but ultimately it powdered it up ultra fine just like what they sell in the store. Again proving to be the ultimate versatile pizza accessory. That and a scale and you're good. Last time I grated it, that ended up as one of maybe two pizzas I've ever had to throw away. Way too intense - this was much better. Really good. I went with a bolder NY style sauce with salt, black pepper, granulated garlic, tiny clove of fresh crushed garlic, oregano, marjoram, fresh basil, EVOO, and some powdered Locatelli. I felt like this sauce was really good, it was just lacking complete development from the half assed bake it received. These Muir Glen ground tomatoes are quite good and balanced.

The last few bakes in my cousins gas/convection oven have really reaffirmed  that my oven sucks. I get such a better, more evenly baked pizza out of that oven; it's night and day. The convection absolutely makes up for the high ceiling height of a home oven. This has also reaffirmed why I hate Papa Murphy's concept - that the bake is at least as important as the ingredients and crust flavor, if not more. I've been so unimpressed by my screen bakes lately, I'm probably going to wait until I get a new stone or work on a different style of pizza. Either a laminated cracker or a Grandma. I love making big pies and slices, but the 12" pizzas I made yesterday on stone + convection were miles better than today's attempt. The oven/bake setup is crucial.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 06:34:26 PM

Also, I think I might prefer less cheese. Although I can appreciate the giant slices Harry has been posting, with cheese flowing off the side, I may be more into a lighter, mottled, tomato-pie-ish style pizza. I'm going to mess with some lower cheese amounts again. I might try a Joe & Pat's or Pizza Town style cheese application again. The trick is to use enough sauce so it doesn't dry out and become miserable. I've made that mistake in the past.

I think this has more to do with how different ovens bake.  I certainly reduce the amount of cheese when baking in a home oven, and increase in a deck oven.  It simply does not bake cheese the same way.  The highly conductive attributes of a deck oven's heavy duty walls, ceiling and stone, the way the fats roll off, and how it significantly reduces down the cheese in terms of water and dehydration.   I'm certain if you put a raw Lucia pie in a home oven, it'd be nothing like what's produced in their store with the molten cheese.  The cheese in their slices are not excessive at all, IMHO.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 06:52:34 PM
I think this has more to do with how different ovens bake.  I certainly reduce the amount of cheese when baking in a home oven, and increase in a deck oven.  It simply does not bake cheese the same way.  The highly conductive attributes of a deck oven's heavy duty walls, ceiling and stone, the way the fats roll off, and how it significantly reduces down the cheese in terms of water and dehydration.   I'm certain if you put a raw Lucia pie in a home oven, it'd be nothing like what's produced in their store with the molten cheese.  The cheese in their slices are not excessive at all, IMHO.

You might be right. I've never baked in a deck oven so I can't say but it's reasonable enough to expect a lot of variation between bake setups.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 11, 2017, 09:09:57 PM
If you prefer less cheese then go for it, but I hope your decision isn't based on this bake.

Good to hear that the locatelli is working for you when it's powdered. I'm going to restart my romano experiments and am looking to tone it down.
 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 09:51:50 PM
If you prefer less cheese then go for it, but I hope your decision isn't based on this bake.

Good to hear that the locatelli is working for you when it's powdered. I'm going to restart my romano experiments and am looking to tone it down.

I just feel like my pizzas have gotten worse. They were really good for a while. I lost all my notes when my computer broke so I'm back to winging it. I don't know if it's the screen or the cheese or what. Maybe I'm just bored of big slices and need a break.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2017, 12:41:01 PM
How fine did your Romano get? You inspired me to throw what I had left into the smoothie machine. Worked better than expected, but probably not as fine as yours.

Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 12, 2017, 12:56:50 PM
Here's mine, it's really fine, like Mortons salt. It powdered very evenly too, I guess it's just bound to clump with no anti caking agents.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2017, 01:03:05 PM
wow, nice job
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 12, 2017, 01:32:56 PM
Thanks, I really like this cheap food processor. I like what it does to sauce texture too, it chops the tomatoes very finely instead of liquefying them like the blender. I assume it's closer to a food milled texture. Never used a mill though. It really transformed the Locatelli into something much more usable for me by powdering it. Harry had suggested it, seems to work well. Although he did say their powdered version may be dehydrated a bit, which I assume would help reduce clumping? Although I'd probably just buy the powdered locatelli next time now that I know it works better for me.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 12, 2017, 02:41:35 PM
You two must be on some big long thought-wave that came and scooped me up. In the past week, I have "powdered" up a hard cheese, added oil to a few sauces and done a convection bake. I have not thought about using the food proc, though. I just might do that. I'm finding that the smaller size easier to release the saltier bit instead of a massive hit of nutty strength.

Somewhat depends on the sauce boil for me, or at least it's part of the equation. When I do not get it just right, my pies can get a sort of nutty, bitter and salty taste to it that just does not please me. It's like 3 stages. 1:) Nutty and bitter, 2:) salty/nutty/strong and 3) salty/umami-ish with some savory action.

What do you guys get with the variances, like going from the strong Lacotelli to the nice Lacotelli thing? 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 12, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
Maybe we are no longer communicating in the 3rd dimension, and instead channeling the supreme pizza consciousness?  ;D

I've only done this one bake with a bad sauce boil so I cant really say anything too strongly, but I think I'm headed in the right direction. All I can say is the sauce had a smell and taste reminiscent of an old school pizzeria. I just know it didn't cook right. My old oven did not have a window so I never got to pay much attention to this aspect, but I'm confident it is absolutely crucial to get that proper flavor infusion.

The convention/stone combo provides such an even bake it's got to be closer to a deck oven. I wish I would have got a pic of this pie the other day, the color was perfect. Perhaps because my locatelli wedge has been in the cheese drawer for a few months and lost some intensity, but it was much more usable to me and not so intense as other times I've used it. I think I could have even used more. Definitely plenty of sauce experiments left to do. I agree the smaller size seems to help with that salt distribution using the pecorino.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 12, 2017, 05:05:04 PM
Sorry to hear your stone broker into more pieces. Have you decided which one is next?

I'd love to find one as dense as the Fire Bricks but in one piece. The 1-1/4" FB would be awfully heavy to manhandle in between bakes, but I would be able to bake on a flat surface without my "system" of braces. I am considering the California Pizza Stone 1-inch version, but cannot determine if it would be any different than the kiln shelf I already have.   ??? 

I agree with you about the cheese/sauce boil thing. It's tough to adjust to coax flavors out with sub-optimal gear. Not that I have ever had optimal gear, but I do know the Blackstone can pump up the cheese/sauce boil thing with ease compared to my inside oven. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 12, 2017, 07:14:35 PM
I want the California Pizza Stone but I don't want to buy a 15" x 15" x 1" I want to make 18 inch pies if I'm going all out. But only 2 people live here so I honestly have no business making 18" pizzas!

I might just get a 15x15" steel pan to make grandma pies for a bit. I want to try something different. 1 piece firebrick would be nice, that's what I don't like is all the pieces remind me of my broken stone, I hated pushing the stone apart when launching / retrieving a pizza. The heavier brick might be more resistant to that though, I've only used really cheap thin pizza stones.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 13, 2017, 05:23:53 PM
Another laminated pan cracker. Into the fridge for a few days.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 13, 2017, 10:51:51 PM
Here's mine, it's really fine, like Mortons salt. It powdered very evenly too, I guess it's just bound to clump with no anti caking agents.

Thought I'd share this video with you guys from Pizza Suprema that shows how much powdered romano goes into an old school NY slice pie   They dust it on top of the sauce, some places add it directly in the sauce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB3OnvydssA
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 13, 2017, 11:15:53 PM
Thought I'd share this video with you guys from Pizza Suprema that shows how much powdered romano goes into an old school NY slice pie   They dust it on top of the sauce, some places add it directly in the sauce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB3OnvydssA

He's not playing around! Sauce looks pretty basic, looks like a pinch of oregano before the cheese? That video definitely makes me want to make a pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 14, 2017, 07:48:58 AM
Thought I'd share this video with you guys from Pizza Suprema that shows how much powdered romano goes into an old school NY slice pie   They dust it on top of the sauce, some places add it directly in the sauce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hB3OnvydssA

Wow! Thanks for posting. I hope to try a slice there in the not too distant future.  I can't imagine that much romano.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 14, 2017, 11:37:49 AM
Wow! Thanks for posting. I hope to try a slice there in the not too distant future.  I can't imagine that much romano.

I wonder what kind of Romano was used - possibly cows milk Romano instead of pecorino? Or maybe NY'rs just dig that gamey taste. It does seem like a lot, although it didn't look like he put on a ton of mozzarella so it could be to offset that. Tom Lehmann's favorite blend is 75% mozz 25% Parmesan. That's 2 oz parm out of a 10 oz cheese blend, which would probably look similar to that if it was powdered up.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 14, 2017, 12:23:10 PM
I wonder what kind of Romano was used - possibly cows milk Romano instead of pecorino? Or maybe NY'rs just dig that gamey taste. It does seem like a lot, although it didn't look like he put on a ton of mozzarella so it could be to offset that. Tom Lehmann's favorite blend is 75% mozz 25% Parmesan. That's 2 oz parm out of a 10 oz cheese blend, which would probably look similar to that if it was powdered up.

Powdered romano seems alot more than it is, though I admit they put alot more than other joints.  Many places don't put any now and let you do it yourself with a shaker after Manhattan got gentrified.  If your pecorino is too "gamey", it might be past it's date. 

Typically add less mozzarella when adding toppings, in this case, mushrooms.  It's about the balance.  When going to 2-3 toppings, generally subtract from the other toppings too otherwise the pie becomes one big mess.

Yeah I think they sprinkled a little oregano in the center for the first bite tho they have oregano in the sauce.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 14, 2017, 12:29:42 PM
Also, the powder and the grated will perform differently.  The powder is dehydrated and acts more as a salt/umami factor.  The grates from blocks have more herbaceous cheese qualities.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 14, 2017, 08:39:11 PM
Should have let this skin go another day or two but I decided to bake it up since it was taking up so much room in the fridge. I need to get a smaller pan, or try laminating after a bulk fermentation in the fridge, but I've read that is a lot more difficult without a sheeter.

Went with a pretty bold sauce but probably should have seasoned either the sausage or the sauce a bit more conservatively. Maybe both, I might try that next time with more of a KISS approach.



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 14, 2017, 09:11:52 PM
Very yummy Ryan!   :drool:  What was the bake temp/time?  Really loving the color you got.  How was the thickness?  I have a similar pan though not sure if it's the same dimensions.  Bakes up some nice pizzas and is my go-to especially when feeding a crowd.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 14, 2017, 11:11:58 PM
Very yummy Ryan!   :drool:  What was the bake temp/time?  Really loving the color you got.  How was the thickness?  I have a similar pan though not sure if it's the same dimensions.  Bakes up some nice pizzas and is my go-to especially when feeding a crowd.

Thanks Hermit  :) It was 500 degrees, not sure of the time but I had to move it from the bottom rack to the top rack as it didn't cook evenly in that position. It came out too thick, I don't know what happened. Not crunchy enough. It might have rose too much, I did Fazarri's cracker method but forgot about it in the warm oven so it went into the fridge a little far possibly. And I have some new sauce theory to think about. I have an idea for what to try next. I think this came out too salty. I got a bit inspired from that clip Harry posted and went heavy with the reggiano and pecorino but I think I need to reduce salt in the crust and possibly eliminate it in the sauce for that maneuver.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2017, 07:00:48 AM
I want the California Pizza Stone but I don't want to buy a 15" x 15" x 1" I want to make 18 inch pies if I'm going all out. But only 2 people live here so I honestly have no business making 18" pizzas!
Do you - or anyone -  have any idea if the California pizza stone is a whole lot different than a standard kiln shelve?
Examples:
http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx (http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx)
http://www.californiapizzastones.com/pizza/stones/single-pizza-baking-stone.php?stoneNum=sq15b (http://www.californiapizzastones.com/pizza/stones/single-pizza-baking-stone.php?stoneNum=sq15b)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2017, 10:29:54 AM
Do you - or anyone -  have any idea if the California pizza stone is a whole lot different than a standard kiln shelve?
Examples:
http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx (http://www.axner.com/cordierite-shelf-18x18x1square.aspx)
http://www.californiapizzastones.com/pizza/stones/single-pizza-baking-stone.php?stoneNum=sq15b (http://www.californiapizzastones.com/pizza/stones/single-pizza-baking-stone.php?stoneNum=sq15b)

Hey Roy,

All I could find was this post from Harry. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46166.msg463448#msg463448

Seems like it may be somewhat different, though I'm really not sure how cordierite vs mullite effects the thermal properties in relation to baking pizza.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46166.msg463448#msg463448
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2017, 11:07:56 AM
Hey Roy,

All I could find was this post from Harry. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46166.msg463448#msg463448

Seems like it may be somewhat different, though I'm really not sure how cordierite vs mullite effects the thermal properties in relation to baking pizza.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46166.msg463448#msg463448
Thanks, Ryan.
That bit is on the California Pizza stone web site. Either fancy marketing hype for kiln shelf up to best thing since sliced pizza, and of course, anywhere in between.  I think my big, thick firebrick is in an opposite direction of Cordierite on the direct initial heat verses longer, slower heat....whatever all that is called.

Still, all that, it might end up what I'll try next. I have one more path to follow first, thanks to Norma's memory and subsequent links. Trying to get near a for real old timey deck oven material, but home oven heat up friendly. (total 2hrs or less, with my preferred bottom crust. Of course, you know what I like already.)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 18, 2017, 10:00:35 PM
5 hour cracker crust with about 15% old dough.

50% water
8% coconut oil
1.5% salt
.5% LDM

Hand mixed, divided, rolled, letter folded, then balled. Let rise about 5 hours at RT, dipped the dough ball in flour, rolled out, skin traced and cut, docked, par-baked for 4 minutes on stone at 450. Dressed and back on the deck for 12 minutes. Cracker crisp still long after cool down. Will see how they hold up in the fridge overnight if any squares make it out alive!

For sauce I used reconstituted tomato paste, salt, sugar, black pepper, powdered romano cheese, granulated garlic, oregano, Italian seasoning (mostly for the dried basil flavor, out of this) sweet smoked paprika, and jalapeño powder. Topped with a good dusting of reggiano and sliced Saputo Gold mozzarella.

I think a more complex cheese blend is required for this type of pizza, I don't think this is the right cheese flavor profile, more NY style; but the crust was really nice. Sauce was well liked, I think it needed more seasoning though or an overnight rest in the fridge to meld longer. I used a way larger tomato paste than needed, this stuff is really stretchable, it's definitely the opposite of the whole peeled tomato I usually use. Dough flavor was pretty good, the texture was enough to give it an extra nudge. I'll have to try a longer cold ferment.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 19, 2017, 12:26:51 AM
 :drool: That's what I'm talking about!  How big was this pie, and was it a PITA to roll out?  Do you think it needed some cheddar or jack or something?  Nice to see such a crunch with 50% water, and 8% coconut oil!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 19, 2017, 01:03:29 AM
:drool: That's what I'm talking about!  How big was this pie, and was it a PITA to roll out?  Do you think it needed some cheddar or jack or something?  Nice to see such a crunch with 50% water, and 8% coconut oil!

Thanks man  :chef: these are 12 inches. 270g ish dough balls rolled just large enough to trim a skin from. I used my Pyrex bowl lid as a template and trimmed around with a pizza cutter. These weren't hard to roll at all, which is especially interesting since they spent a relatively short time in balls. Maybe the oil amount helps prevent the dough from snapping back. I under mixed the dough after studying the cracker crust forum last night and reading some info from Tom Lehmann. The theory is you will get some development from rolling/sheeting so under mixing helps. Im pretty impressed with how crunchy the pie turned out. I need to try one without par baking to see how much of it is related to that.

I think it could have used something like that. Maybe provolone, Asiago, Gouda, cheddar; something. Like I said in that other post, it seems like this style is more known for shredded cheese blends and not so much Romano or Parmesan. I'll have to try this formula again with sausage, it's the only way to go!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2017, 09:21:51 AM
Looking good Ryan. I'm guessing this is the type of pie you grew up with? Are you pretty close?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on March 19, 2017, 09:29:24 AM
Is PSLM standard issue for that type? For some reason I had always had that in my mind.

That looks pretty nice. We have to search for tolerable NY style around here, and then it's luck of the day, but I've been told that a local place doing Chicago thin does it really well and authentic like. Your fine looking effort reminded me of that place away.   

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 19, 2017, 11:33:24 AM
Looking good Ryan. I'm guessing this is the type of pie you grew up with? Are you pretty close?

Thanks Matt! It needs some work. The cheese blend was definitely off, though I'm not necessarily trying to recreate this pie, more so interpret it to my tastes, so I'm open to non traditional changes. I want to try Gouda as per Chicago Bob's thread. The pies I grew up on are apparently much thinner, I'll have to really work on that. I don't think they are actually laminated either, though I like the texture.

Some pics from Yelp. Screaming thin.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 19, 2017, 11:42:13 AM
Is PSLM standard issue for that type? For some reason I had always had that in my mind.

That looks pretty nice. We have to search for tolerable NY style around here, and then it's luck of the day, but I've been told that a local place doing Chicago thin does it really well and authentic like. Your fine looking effort reminded me of that place away.

Thanks Roy! I don't think you have to search farther than a Blackstone around there  :chef:
I'm from St. Louis, technically the "cheese" is a processed blend called Provel. I don't have access to that so I'm just going to come up with a blend I think tastes good. I think this pie was more California style like Shakey's/Round Table/Straw Hat though. I'm honestly not very familiar with Chicago style, Im not sure if they laminate, but maybe some places do? Not sure if they are this crispy either, as I don't believe they par bake. I think I read a post from Pizza Garage who has a recipe on here for a Chicago tavern style with lamination though. He happens to have a sheeter and a deck oven in his garage; makes some excellent looking pizzas.

That Chi Thin place near you might be worth trying for a change of pace.  :pizza:
These style pies are best with sausage!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 19, 2017, 10:10:54 PM
 12" convection bake 7 minutes @ 550
55% hydration KABF 5 hour dough
Boars Head deli sliced mozz,Parmigiano Reggiano
Boars Head pepperoni, mushroom, bell pepper, onion
Sauce was Carmelina San Marzano with salt, pepper, fresh basil, and dry oregano
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 19, 2017, 11:51:39 PM
Nice color on that pie Ryan.  Looks like a nice melt too.  How'd the 5hr dough taste?  Stone bake on this one?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 20, 2017, 12:19:32 AM
Nice color on that pie Ryan.  Looks like a nice melt too.  How'd the 5hr dough taste?  Stone bake on this one?

The melt was great, this picture is pretty weird, but it was nice. Flavor was good too. Could be better, but I get a great bake from the stone / convection combo which helps develop flavor and texture. I'm fairly content with some of the shorter doughs if I get a great even bake. Harder to pull off in my oven. Got a no knead focaccia going. Gonna let that rise at room temp overnight and bake in the morning.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 23, 2017, 04:48:01 PM
55% hydration KABF 48hr CF
17" pie 600g dough ball
Baked @ 500F for 10 minutes.
8 oz Galbani WM mozzarella
Sauce was Muir Glen whole peeled, pulsed in the blender. 2/3's cooked down to paste and mixed with the uncooked purée. Sauced skin had thin slices fresh garlic, oregano, turn of black pepper, and a grating of Grana Padano. Margherita pepperoni, post bake fresh basil, a pinch of crushed oregano, and shredded Grana.

My first time trying Grana Padano; digging it. Really good pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 23, 2017, 05:02:09 PM
Nice pie Ryan!  Looks like you got a nice bake there, bottom looks great.  Was the sauce just the blended tomatoes or was it salted?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 23, 2017, 05:28:27 PM
Nice pie Ryan!  Looks like you got a nice bake there, bottom looks great.  Was the sauce just the blended tomatoes or was it salted?

Thanks Hermit  :chef: the sauce had salt from canning but I didn't add any. I usually do but I wanted to try something different since my pies have been coming out a bit too salty lately. I'll have to eat a leftover slice to determine if I should have added some or not  ;D

The sauce was just tomatoes but I cooked 2/3's of the can to paste and mixed it with the uncooked. I seasoned it on the pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 23, 2017, 05:39:57 PM
Thanks Hermit  :chef: the sauce had salt from canning but I didn't add any. I usually do but I wanted to try something different since my pies have been coming out a bit too salty lately. I'll have to eat a leftover slice to determine if I should have added some or not  ;D

The sauce was just tomatoes but I cooked 2/3's of the can to paste and mixed it with the uncooked. I seasoned it on the pie.

Nice, interested to hear your thoughts on the leftover slice.  I like your idea of cooking down some of the tomatoes into paste, I never thought of that but it's a good use of the leftover tomato juice.  I've been getting 16oz of sauce out of a 28oz can after it's drained.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 23, 2017, 05:51:07 PM
Concentrating the tomatoes gets you that extra umami richness  ;)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 23, 2017, 07:27:33 PM
Wow, beautiful evenly thin slice! What'd you think of the Galbani? I used it exclusively for a while.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 23, 2017, 08:35:20 PM
Thanks Matt! Yeah it turned out pretty thin despite the larger dough weight. I liked that. Hard for me to say on the Galbani since it wasn't a plain slice. It had kind of a softer texture when grating which was quite different from Saputo Gold. The packaging said something about it being softer too. It seemed fine but didn't have that strong buttery aroma after grating Scott123 used to talk about like the Saputo does. Do you notice that with the Grande? I really liked the Grana Padano.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 24, 2017, 08:44:04 PM
I haven't noticed. I'll be sure to take a whiff when I'm grating tomorrow  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2017, 07:25:06 AM
Ryan, how long have you been doing 55% water for? I have a 56% in the fridge (+3% oil), I had been doing 61% until last week.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 25, 2017, 09:36:13 AM
Interesting we're converging at the same point with lower hydration formulas.  I have a 56% (effective hydration) going right now as well.  I blindly calculated my dough and had the water percentage off, so it was a bit of a mistake but it should work =)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2017, 10:24:53 AM
Ryan, how long have you been doing 55% water for? I have a 56% in the fridge (+3% oil), I had been doing 61% until last week.

I've been messing with 55% for a few weeks, The dough is less extensible which helps me stretch an even skin, especially useful for real thin TF doughs from getting away from you and developing a thin spot. Makes bread flour feel a bit more resilient like high gluten flour. Easier to toss. Also, I've been teaching my other uncle how to make pizzas, I came up with this number for him because I figured it would be easier for a beginner to learn how to open; but it's been working well for me too.  :chef:

The dough handled really well on this last pizza I made. I've made some variations to my hand kneading method and have been getting better development with my dough.

Interesting we're converging at the same point with lower hydration formulas.  I have a 56% (effective hydration) going right now as well.  I blindly calculated my dough and had the water percentage off, so it was a bit of a mistake but it should work =)

Yeah, lower hydration doughs just work well for me and NY style. I've been doing focaccia at 95% so it's no big deal working with a wet dough, I just don't think NY needs it. It's been a while since I went above 60% water for slice pies.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 26, 2017, 06:11:58 PM
This pie from Best Pizza looks pretty good, gonna try one like this next attempt. I'm gonna try putting the whole 8 oz ball of fresh mozz on a 17" skin and a simple bright tomato sauce. Debating getting a stick of pepperoni to slice up and dump a ton on. I like the look of NY slices where they pile the pepperoni on. Norma's slices from Joe & Pat's come to mind. The large diameter deli pepperoni isn't right and doesn't cup and char, I get best results with stick.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 26, 2017, 07:32:34 PM
...I've been doing focaccia at 95%...

Have you posted any of these? Would be cool to see.

This pie from Best Pizza looks pretty good, gonna try one like this next attempt...

Sounds good. I like how fresh basil can transform a pie.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 26, 2017, 07:56:33 PM
I'll have to post my next one. At 95% it's no knead, basically a stir and pour. Yeah fresh basil is nice, I want to try more fresh oregano. I'm thinking a simple whole peeled tomato sauce, well drained so I can put a lot on, should help contrast the fresh mozz from getting too wet I think. I really like the stretch I get from fresh mozz. I've had mixed results but I'll try it again. I need a steel to copy the bottom of Best Pizza, has char evident of a fast bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 27, 2017, 06:10:57 PM
This pie from Best Pizza looks pretty good, gonna try one like this next attempt. I'm gonna try putting the whole 8 oz ball of fresh mozz on a 17" skin and a simple bright tomato sauce. Debating getting a stick of pepperoni to slice up and dump a ton on. I like the look of NY slices where they pile the pepperoni on. Norma's slices from Joe & Pat's come to mind. The large diameter deli pepperoni isn't right and doesn't cup and char, I get best results with stick.

My fav pepperonis for "dumping it on" are the small diameter Ezzo GiAntonio, or Battistoni cup and char from Buffalo, NY. 
Or maybe we should find out what the "secret" pepperoni is that wins pizza competitions ;-)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 28, 2017, 12:43:38 AM
My fav pepperonis for "dumping it on" are the small diameter Ezzo GiAntonio, or Battistoni cup and char from Buffalo, NY. 
Or maybe we should find out what the "secret" pepperoni is that wins pizza competitions ;-)

I've heard a lot of good stuff about Ezzo, there's an Italian deli in town I should check, they might have some higher quality pepperoni. I think they have some canned tomatoes and stuff too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 28, 2017, 07:30:26 PM
Well I deviated to a regular slice instead, maybe I'll try the fresh mozz again on a pie later. One of my best pies yet, awesome texture and great flavor. Same 55% hydration dough. I used 8 oz Galbani mozz with 1 oz Grana Padano. Muir Glen crushed tomatoes with a minced clove of garlic, a tablespoon of olive oil, teaspoon of salt, and 1/8t red pepper flakes. Leftover Margherita pepperoni. Baked @ 500 for 11 minutes on the center rack. Thanks for looking!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on March 28, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
Congrats Ryan! Just can't stay away from the NY slices.

Is that more oil in the sauce than usual?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on March 28, 2017, 08:38:23 PM
Nice pie there Ryan.  You got a superb bottom coloring!  How was the sauce with seasonings added later?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on March 28, 2017, 10:04:17 PM
Congrats Ryan! Just can't stay away from the NY slices.

Is that more oil in the sauce than usual?

Thanks Matt! Yeah, I keep coming back to NY style. I wanted to work on a cracker crust but it's a lot more work than a NY dough. I wanted to work on a grandma pizza but I haven't picked up the right pan yet.

I think 1T oil is about normal for me when I use it, but I don't always add it. My sauce is always different lol. This was good though, if not a little too much garlic which I somewhat expected, but it was really good without any herbs. I sprinkled oregano and black pepper and a bunch of grana Padano in the middle of the pie like the pizza town video; and you've mentioned it also, getting different flavors across the pie. I really liked the initial strong oregano bite that fades away across the rest of the slice. Will be messing with more of this concept,  it worked out really well. This dough was .085, feeling pretty good with this dough formula.

Nice pie there Ryan.  You got a superb bottom coloring!  How was the sauce with seasonings added later?


Thanks Hermit! I added all these seasonings to the sauce - the garlic, olive oil, chile flake; and it sat for an hour or two; and I added the black pepper and oregano on top of the fully dressed pizza before baking.  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on April 02, 2017, 04:19:25 PM
Do you think your powdered romano is retaining it's flavor? I'm thinking mine is becoming more mild as it sits in a Mason jar in the fridge.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 02, 2017, 04:30:53 PM
Do you think your powdered romano is retaining it's flavor? I'm thinking mine is becoming more mild as it sits in a Mason jar in the fridge.

I think it is becoming more mild, I think it's bound to happen the further it gets from the wheel.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on April 02, 2017, 04:53:58 PM
Yeah, I think I'm going to switch back to grating it right before the bake. But I'll try to grind it smaller with my fingers.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on April 06, 2017, 03:09:48 PM


... feeling pretty good with this dough formula.

Maybe I missed it back there somewhere, but with the 55% hydration you've been using, what's the rest of your current dough recipe, and how long and at what temp are you fermenting that?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 06, 2017, 10:00:34 PM

Maybe I missed it back there somewhere, but with the 55% hydration you've been using, what's the rest of your current dough recipe, and how long and at what temp are you fermenting that?

Current formula is

100% bread flour
55% water
2% salt
2% oil
1% sugar for cold fermented doughs or .5% LDM (60L) for same day doughs
.3% IDY

This works for a 4-5 hour same day or 2-3+ days CF. I let it rise either at ambient temperature or in the fridge. I'm in SoCal so ambient is mid 60's to 70's.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 10, 2017, 11:30:02 AM
Well I made a few 12" pies yesterday to do some tests.
Sauce was 28 oz Muir Glen with 1 Tbsp pecorino Romano, sugar, and EVOO.

I seasoned one pie with oregano, one with crushed garlic, and one with just the tomato sauce. My phone died so I didn't get any pics but I was surprised how much I preferred the one with oregano. It made the sauce taste complete. I really liked adding it right before baking, it made the tomato and oregano stand out in their own regard instead of any of that bitter muddled flavor that can come through when the two are homogenized for too long. The garlic test turned into a calzone as I got a hole in the bottom, I tried to patch it with a piece of dough off the rim but I couldn't get under the pie without tearing it further as it was already dressed and ready to bake. This calzone turned out awesome, I wasn't planning on making one so I just raided the fridge and tossed some things on as fast as I could, hoping the skin wouldn't tear any further when I went to transfer it to the baking stone. I guess it's actually a Stromboli since the skin was sauced? I added on some diced chicken, diced onion, hit it with some salt and pepper, some Grana Padano, a few fresh basil leaves, and a splash of EVOO. Simple, but turned out really good. I really appreciated the texture and char of the stone bake after using the screen for a while. I'm glad I did a .07 TF as the stone adds a lot more oven spring than my screen.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on April 10, 2017, 02:47:28 PM
Hey man I think you've got your NY nailed down and then some. I'd love to see you turn out a pan pizza like Godfather's used to make, or the void PH failed to fill (imo). Maybe not here since it's the NY section, but I think you said the other day that you were about to make one but put out an NY instead. I mean out of the 5+ amazing pizzas you make a week I know you got some skill left over to turn out a solid pan 😋
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on April 10, 2017, 04:13:05 PM
I'm a big fan of including oregano too. What'd you think of the Romano? Was it enough to notice it? And nice save with the calzone!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 10, 2017, 08:28:33 PM
Hey man I think you've got your NY nailed down and then some. I'd love to see you turn out a pan pizza like Godfather's used to make, or the void PH failed to fill (imo). Maybe not here since it's the NY section, but I think you said the other day that you were about to make one but put out an NY instead. I mean out of the 5+ amazing pizzas you make a week I know you got some skill left over to turn out a solid pan 😋

Haha thanks man, I have a good idea for something partially cooked in my perforated pan than finished on stone. I did a test bake of this that turned out pretty promising. My only aversion is I'm trying to cut back my cheese intake, and a 14" American uses as much, if not more cheese than my 17" NY pies!

I'm a big fan of including oregano too. What'd you think of the Romano? Was it enough to notice it? And nice save with the calzone!


I don't know, I think it needed more, or the sauce still needed some salt? The tomato product was skewed to begin with so it wasn't a great test. I used Muir Glen tomato sauce which is made from reconstituted paste. I was thinking it could work for that NY savory tomato thing but I wasn't feeling it. I still think I prefer whole peeled honestly. Specifically the DiNapoli tomatoes. Also I've been using various retail mozzarellas these last few bakes over my typical Saputo and they seems noticeably worse. Like if mozzarella was already a mild cheese, this is taking it to the extreme. As much as I hate the extortion fee Boars Head wants for their mozzarella, I know it can deliver. It seems like 95% of the mozzarella is part skim.

The calzone was a good save, the only issue is the skin was already sauced so you're dealing with sauce on both sides, can get soggy so it needs to bake longer but not so simple when it's got to go in the oven right now and the temp is set high. I got a screen under it after it set and it turned out good, though a longer bake would have been better, it was just a little soggy up top.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 10, 2017, 08:34:48 PM
Hey man I think you've got your NY nailed down and then some. I'd love to see you turn out a pan pizza like Godfather's used to make, or the void PH failed to fill (imo). Maybe not here since it's the NY section, but I think you said the other day that you were about to make one but put out an NY instead. I mean out of the 5+ amazing pizzas you make a week I know you got some skill left over to turn out a solid pan

Here's the bottom from my pan/stone hybrid, I think it will make a good American style. I need more toppings for this style, I don't think it's a great canvas for a classic cheese pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Aimless Ryan on April 29, 2017, 01:06:13 PM
I recently "met" Ryan on another site, where he directed me to this thread. I'm only two pages in so far. Definitely enjoying it. I see tons of improvement on the first page alone. Can't wait to see what's ahead.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 29, 2017, 08:59:58 PM
Thanks Ryan!

Here's what I came up with today. Been thinking a lot recently about what I "want" my pizzas to be.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on April 29, 2017, 09:03:40 PM
Clearly not "wanting" of a romantic. What's the green stuff on there? That looks bomb.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on April 29, 2017, 09:04:41 PM
Lol autocorrect. I meant rim, not romantic. I'm not gonna change it though.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on April 29, 2017, 09:25:23 PM
Beautiful slice Ryan :drool:

Great melt and thickness.  Really like how full the slice is.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 29, 2017, 10:22:42 PM
Clearly not "wanting" of a romantic. What's the green stuff on there? That looks bomb.

Thanks man! Those are young (small) fresh basil leaves under the cheese. Ha I was trying to clone this pie I made once. Pretty close in slice profile, but the melt was off. I think I just need to dial in the right oven rack settings and I'll have it. I hit the broiler early on today trying to get a jumpstart on the melt, to the oil off stage but I think I went past it, so I'll skip the broiler next time unless it looks like I need it to get the mozz like this. Also my sauce was way too thick today, I tried straining crushed tomatoes like a post I saw recently and it was barely spreadable with a rubber spatula, so I think that also prevented my melt from melding.

Beautiful slice Ryan :drool:

Great melt and thickness.  Really like how full the slice is.

Thanks Hermit! These thin ones go down fast! It's sort of my interpretation of an NY style meets bar pie. Screaming thin but BIG slices  ;D
Breaking my 12" pizza rule again...  >:D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on April 29, 2017, 10:26:08 PM
That thin slice you do is primo looking. Always looks top notch.

I understand your taking time for personal direction insight. This may sound like a corny cliché, but being true to yourself is often the way to go.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on April 29, 2017, 11:01:58 PM
That thin slice you do is primo looking. Always looks top notch.

I understand your taking time for personal direction insight. This may sound like a corny cliché, but being true to yourself is often the way to go.

Cheers Roy!

First bake with Dietz & Watson WMLM mozzarella slices, BTW!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on April 30, 2017, 09:11:39 AM
I'm looking forward to hearing how the D&W does for you after you get the sauce/cheese rumble the way you like it. Sure looked good in the picture you posted.  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on April 30, 2017, 05:09:53 PM
Love that slice Ryan! Good to see you back chasing the thin pie. What was your TF and fermentation time? Screen bake?

 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on April 30, 2017, 09:34:23 PM
Those last couple pics look identical to a locally owned place in town here. Many years ago it was my favorite, it has changed hands a couple times and it has lost its mojo. Yours looks very close, thin, limp crust, hot and gooey!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on April 30, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
Great work Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 01, 2017, 01:16:33 AM
Love that slice Ryan! Good to see you back chasing the thin pie. What was your TF and fermentation time? Screen bake?

Thanks Matt! .07, fermented for 7 of 8 hours at room temp. Had a nice percentage of old dough in the mix. Yeah this was on the screen, I was really chasing that big slice but I'm not gonna use it anymore as I don't feel it cooks the sauce properly. I did another bake today in the convection oven but same result - pizza on the screen just never gets that proper intense boil necessary for the flavor to develop and to wick moisture from toppings. I'm pretty convinced the pizza needs that intense conduction heat to kick the pizza into gear.

Im gonna have to come up with a style for my small 12 inch stone. I may work on a bar pie, I feel this last slice is kind of a hybrid between NY and bar pie. The sauce philosophy I was going for didn't work, too fresh. It was lacking umami, but that may be from the underdeveloped sauce flavor.

I'm also considering raising my salt in the dough, I'm at 2% but I feel sometimes that a classic slice with no toppings needs a little extra salt to bring the flavor through.

 
Those last couple pics look identical to a locally owned place in town here. Many years ago it was my favorite, it has changed hands a couple times and it has lost its mojo. Yours looks very close, thin, limp crust, hot and gooey!

Screamin' thin, like the "slider" of pizza!  ;D That's a bummer your local spot went downhill. All the pizza joints I used to eat at have gone downhill. It's like many of them just cut ingredient quality over and over and over until there's nothing left, so even a fully loaded pizza with 5 cheeses and 7 toppings still tastes like nothing!


Great work Ryan!
Thanks Bob!  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 03, 2017, 11:10:02 PM
Few 12" 250g pies baked & 500F for 10 minutes on stone on the lowest oven rack. 65% hydration, 2.4% salt

Crushed tomatoes with thin sliced garlic, olive oil, and fresh basil. Some oregano added while building the pie.

Whole milk mozzarella, Pecorino Romano, and Grana Padano; Dietz & Watson pepperoni. Regular and a  Boardwalk style.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on May 03, 2017, 11:12:24 PM
Few 12" 250g pies baked & 500F for 10 minutes on stone on the lowest oven rack. 65% hydration, 2.4% salt

Crushed tomatoes with thin sliced garlic, olive oil, and fresh basil. Some oregano added while building the pie.

Whole milk mozzarella, Pecorino Romano, and Grana Padano; Dietz & Watson pepperoni. Regular and a  Boardwalk style.

VERY nice Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 03, 2017, 11:19:06 PM
VERY nice Ryan!

 ^^^  Those are some great looking pies, love the smaller diameter pepperoni on the 12" pizzas.  Crust looks awesome!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 03, 2017, 11:27:13 PM
How did you like them baked at that temp? I can't seem to ever get my pepperoni to Char with my 5ish min bakes, but it will char some of I bake longer, which I never do.
And who eats all this pizza you make? Lately we've had a surplus of it and I actually got burnt out on it for a while.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 03, 2017, 11:31:41 PM
How's that Dietz pepperoni btw? I saw some somewhere cheap  and almost got it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 04, 2017, 12:37:35 AM
VERY nice Ryan!

Thanks Bob, these were definitely winners, really pleased!

^^^  Those are some great looking pies, love the smaller diameter pepperoni on the 12" pizzas.  Crust looks awesome!

Thanks Hermit! Yeah, the small diameter is perfect for this size pie. And I really like the chew I'm getting in these oil free pies. The crust is definitely different from the stone convection experience versus the screen convection. This had great crispness, while still being foldable, little crunch at the rim  :drool:

How did you like them baked at that temp? I can't seem to ever get my pepperoni to Char with my 5ish min bakes, but it will char some of I bake longer, which I never do.
And who eats all this pizza you make? Lately we've had a surplus of it and I actually got burnt out on it for a while.

I've been doing 10 minute bakes for a while. I like it a lot. But I like shorter bakes a lot too so...   :-D
I'm not using any browning agents in my dough so it takes a while to get color on this dough. It works out well though as it allows the top and bottom to finish at the same time. You can get pepperoni char if you experiment with adding in the broiler. Just have to be careful you don't broil too much and dry out the rim. The further the pizza is from the broiler the better it seems to work for this style pizza, I had my rack at the lowest position, so the inverse square of the broilers heat is reduced quite a bit for a more gentle addition of top heat.

I usually eat most of the pizza  >:D one 12" would have been plenty, I like making dough in 500 or 1000g flour batches as it makes the measurements easy. I'll probably try a smaller batch next time. I get burnt out too, I took a few weeks off from baking recently, I give slices to the neighbors sometimes.  :)

I like the Dietz pepperoni, it's a bit bolder than a lot of pepperoni, has a fennel hit to it. It's definitely strong enough to stand alone which I like.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 04, 2017, 06:45:43 AM
Very nice looking pies, Ryan. It should be of no surprise that they're singing my song.

Very interesting how the salt and oilamounts work for you on this. The lack of oil, obviously, being a key aspect. Assuming  hand mixing is less brutal than a stand mixer, perhaps not needing oil is part of that. And salt, is that increased amount hw you are making up for some strength? Which ever way it is, it appears to be working.  :chef: :chef: :chef:

The dietz and watson stuff - tha's the BJ's Warehouse club brand thing? Perhaps I'll get some this weekend while there. I think I've only seen the Bridgeford at our local store. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 04, 2017, 12:40:32 PM
Thanks Roy! Omitting the oil has brought back that nice chew, I'm using a standard bread flour so it seems to help. The salt was to lift the flavor which helped in my opinion, but we'll see where I end up settling with salt. The salt could be giving me some additional strength, seems to work for the Neapolitans. This is my 5th or so test in the oil free experiment but I just started the higher salt so I'll have to do a few more bakes to see where it takes me.

I'm not familiar with BJ's; Dietz & Watson is the deli brand at Albertsons, an alternative to Boars Head available at Ralph's and others. I've never seen the Bridgford, stick pepperoni is hard for me to find outside of Boars Head and Dietz & Watson. I need to check out this Italian deli around here to see if they have the primo stuff.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 08, 2017, 10:42:11 PM
14" Hybrid American style - started in a greased perforated pan and finished on stone.

1 hour autolyse, 24 hr room temp ferment, rim oiled with EVOO and Grana Padano pre bake, 4 oz mozzarella, little pecorino and Grana Padano, whole peeled tomato sauce, strained with the juices seasoned, cooked down, and re/added, baked for 10 minutes @ 500F on the bottom rack.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 09, 2017, 12:06:19 AM
Really good looking pie there Ryan!  Looks like a pizzaria.  I like the color you got on the bottom, right on the edge.  What did you do for seasoning on the sauce?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 09, 2017, 01:18:10 AM
Really good looking pie there Ryan!  Looks like a pizzaria.  I like the color you got on the bottom, right on the edge.  What did you do for seasoning on the sauce?

Thanks Hermit  :D

The bottom color was nice, though the top could have used a touch more. I may move this project up one rack, or maybe shift to the top rack for the last minute. Flavor and texture of this dough was great, it was really good. Sauce had EVOO, fresh and dry garlic, fresh and dry oregano, a basil leaf, and a dab of crushed red pepper flakes; salt, pepper, a bit of sugar  :chef: just winged it.

I only had 4 oz of mozzarella but I think this pie needs more.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 09, 2017, 06:37:51 AM
Looks very nice, Ryan.

What did you notice about the 1 hour autolyze compared to a more traditional amount?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 09, 2017, 10:44:05 AM
Looks very nice, Ryan.

What did you notice about the 1 hour autolyze compared to a more traditional amount?

Hey thanks Roy, The autolyse is giving me great development on a simple hand mix routine. They say 20-30 minutes is sufficient, but I'm a bit inspired by some Neapolitan focused members who autolyse longer. I'm liking the way my dough comes together with this method. Personally I'm preferring this routine over the more common direct mix followed by stretch and folds, as I don't have to check in every 30 minutes for another round of stretch and folds; just autolyse, final mix, and ball.

As far as other effects from autolyse, like flavor improvement; that I'm not sure if. I'm using it mostly for developmental purposes, but it would be a good comparison. As would a test batch in the food processor to compare development.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2017, 11:00:02 AM
Ryan,

I agree with the others. That is a nice looking pizza.

Maybe you have elaborated on this before but can you tell me what your autolyze entails in terms of the steps you follow?

And can you tell us the recipe you used for your hybrid American style pizza, if you haven't already done so?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 09, 2017, 02:33:22 PM
Ryan,

I agree with the others. That is a nice looking pizza.

Maybe you have elaborated on this before but can you tell me what your autolyze entails in terms of the steps you follow?

And can you tell us the recipe you used for your hybrid American style pizza, if you haven't already done so?

Peter

Thanks Peter  :)

I combined all of the formulas flour and water using a rubber spatula and let rest for 60 minutes at room temperature, added in IDY and kneaded for a few folds to incorporate, then added the salt and continued kneading for a couple minutes by hand until the salt felt incorporated and the dough felt smooth and developed. I let that rise outside for 24 hours before dressing and baking. The bake involved a pizza stone on the bottom rack preheated to 500F for 60 minutes. I started the pie in the perforated pan placed on the stone for about 7 minutes, pulled that and finished the remaining 3 minutes directly on the stone.

My dough formula was 100% generic grocery store relabeled unbleached bread flour 64% water, 2.4% salt, and a tiny pinch of instant yeast. I didn't measure it, I "seasoned" my dough after the autolyse with IDY almost like a finishing salt, I'd guess somewhere between 1/16-1/32 of a teaspoon. I need to get a scale capable of measuring lower than a gram to be able to measure accurately.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2017, 03:05:37 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for your explanation.

First of all, congratulations on your proper use of autolyse. A lot of people will combine salt and/or yeast with the flour and water and call the rest period an autolyse rest period, when it is more properly called a fermentation period, especially if the yeast (dried or natural) will start to acidify the dough during the rest period. In my own experiments, I found that I liked the effect of autolyse when used with a natural starter but when I used dry yeast, such as IDY or ADY, I did not like the results as much. The texture of the dough was more like white supermarket bread. In your case, with the small amount of yeast you used and the long fermentation time (24 hours), I suspect that the autolyse was compatible with what you did. 

The reason why I asked you about the hybrid American style pizza is because I tend to think of American style pizza as being like chain pizza, such as sold, for example, by Papa John's, Domino's and Pizza Hut, with a lot of sugar and oil in the dough. I one time played around with an American style pizza with a NY style thickness and called the combination a hybrid American/NY style. At the time, I couldn't recall that anyone was doing that professionally, and thought that it might make a good chain pizza. But I can see that what you are doing is completely different.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 09, 2017, 03:22:49 PM
Ryan,

Thanks for your explanation.

First of all, congratulations on your proper use of autolyse. A lot of people will combine salt and/or yeast with the flour and water and call the rest period an autolyse rest period, when it is more properly called a fermentation period, especially if the yeast (dried or natural) will start to acidify the dough during the rest period. In my own experiments, I found that I liked the effect of autolyse when used with a natural starter but when I used dry yeast, such as IDY or ADY, I did not like the results as much. The texture of the dough was more like white supermarket bread. In your case, with the small amount of yeast you used and the long fermentation time (24 hours), I suspect that the autolyse was compatible with what you did. 

The reason why I asked you about the hybrid American style pizza is because I tend to think of American style pizza as being like chain pizza, such as sold, for example, by Papa John's, Domino's and Pizza Hut, with a lot of sugar and oil in the dough. I one time played around with an American style pizza with a NY style thickness and called the combination a hybrid American/NY style. At the time, I couldn't recall that anyone was doing that professionally, and thought that it might make a good chain pizza. But I can see that what you are doing is completely different.

Peter

Peter,
Did your autolyse experiments involve machine mix or hand kneading? I've started experimenting with autolyse again and done so my last 8 or so bakes and I like the development I get with the dough for my hand mix.

My hybrid American tag is mostly based on my baking process; I said hybrid since as you noted, it's quite different in dough formula. I used a heavier seasoned sauce and some other American attributes, it's definitely my own kind of Frankenstein  :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2017, 05:18:59 PM
Peter,
Did your autolyse experiments involve machine mix or hand kneading? I've started experimenting with autolyse again and done so my last 8 or so bakes and I like the development I get with the dough for my hand mix.
Ryan,

My best recollection is that I used either a stand mixer or food processor for making a pizza dough that had undergone autolysis. However, I recalled that I did once use a manual mix for a dough that was to become a loaf of bread. The post for that exercise is at Reply 56 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4114.msg42660#msg42660.

It is possible that I hand kneaded an autolyzed dough at other times but I could not find any posts confirming that after doing a forum search.

FYI, I described what I meant by my reference to supermarket bread at Reply 5 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62715#msg62715.

Once I concluded that the autolyse method did not produce the desired end results for a standard pizza dough using solely commercial yeast, I did not conduct more experiments to see if I could make more effective use of that method. Also, because I was not aware of any professionals who made use of autolyse for pizza dough in a commercial setting, I had come to associate that method with bread making, not pizza making. But my advice has always been that if members like the autolyse method, they should use it.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2017, 05:59:02 PM
Ryan,

After my last post, I decided to do another forum search to see if I could find an example of a pizza dough where I used hand kneading and autolyse. The only example I could find that was not ambiguous as to how the dough was kneaded is described in Reply 39 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2175.msg20385#msg20385.

In the above case, you will note that I had to use hand kneading because no mixer of any sort was available. And I used autolyse to help better hydrate the flour, which was a high gluten flour.

Over the years, I have talked about the benefit of using autolyse where a high gluten flour and hand kneading are used. But, for the most part, the autolyse was to help make a better hydrated dough when using a high gluten flour that can be hard to knead by hand. In fact, at one time, King Arthur advocated against hand kneading a dough with its Sir Lancelot flour. However, I later concluded that the reason was that KA was looking for a highly developed gluten structure (for bread) and they felt that hand kneading was inadequate to the task. They did not suggest using autolyse.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 10, 2017, 03:27:36 PM
Ryan,

My best recollection is that I used either a stand mixer or food processor for making a pizza dough that had undergone autolysis. However, I recalled that I did once use a manual mix for a dough that was to become a loaf of bread. The post for that exercise is at Reply 56 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4114.msg42660#msg42660.

It is possible that I hand kneaded an autolyzed dough at other times but I could not find any posts confirming that after doing a forum search.

FYI, I described what I meant by my reference to supermarket bread at Reply 5 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62715#msg62715.

Once I concluded that the autolyse method did not produce the desired end results for a standard pizza dough using solely commercial yeast, I did not conduct more experiments to see if I could make more effective use of that method. Also, because I was not aware of any professionals who made use of autolyse for pizza dough in a commercial setting, I had come to associate that method with bread making, not pizza making. But my advice has always been that if members like the autolyse method, they should use it.

Peter

Peter,

That's interesting that you lost chew with the autolyse, I've been specifically altering my workflow to increase chew. I've removed all of my oil as I feel it's been really stealing it, and since incorporating these two changes I'm getting great chew and texture. Especially with my thinner .07 TF pizzas, I was really having a problem losing bite with a dough that thin.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 10, 2017, 04:15:20 PM
Perhaps the amateur uses autolyse to make up for a deficiency encountered by not getting to play with a big commercial stand mixer. (Either in it's entirety or as part of a bigger equation.)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 12, 2017, 11:10:53 PM
Friday pie
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 13, 2017, 12:31:54 AM
You forgot the bottom right corner 😱
that looks bomb, was that a sheet pan?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 13, 2017, 12:33:51 PM
You forgot the bottom right corner 😱
that looks bomb, was that a sheet pan?

Thanks man! It's a 16" X 12" pan I found in the cabinet   :-D

It's pretty thin so I guess that's why I've always glanced past it, but it looked like it might be somewhat nonstick and I've been having sticking problems lately with square pies so I went with it.

I was going to make focaccia but decided to try something different, I didn't have a lot of my typical pizza ingredients so I just made due with bits and pieces. I didn't have any mozzarella so I grated large shreds of grana Padano on to get that savory caramelized flavor, sprinkled on some Italian seasoning, some EVOO, and made a quick cooked sauce from a 14 oz can of whole peeled tomatoes I blended for a few seconds. EVOO, minced garlic, red pepper flakes, a fresh basil leaf, and a fresh oregano leaf; tomatoes in, salt, pepper, sugar, Pecorino Romano. Cooked for about 30 min while the oven was heating and applied the sauce pre bake. Little fresh grana on the way out and I ran out of EVOO so I didn't get to garnish with that.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 14, 2017, 08:32:34 PM
14" "fully loaded" thin and crispy - San Marzano tomato sauce with EVOO, fresh garlic, fresh and dry oregano, and red pepper flakes; Dietz & Watson whole milk mozzarella, Locatelli Pecorino Romano; black olives, mushrooms, D&W stick pepperoni, and shaved Grana Padano

Cooked for 15 minutes @ 450
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 14, 2017, 08:35:28 PM
Wow  :drool: I bet that hit the spot.  Looks great!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on May 14, 2017, 09:05:09 PM
Wow  :drool: I bet that hit the spot.  Looks great!

 ^^^

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 15, 2017, 11:51:48 AM
Thanks guys! This one was a hit!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 10:35:06 PM
Sausage and shroom square tonight - I precooked both this time. I apologize for the ugly cheese melt. Tried this other mozzarella but it went to browning before it even melted, didn't oil off at all.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on May 24, 2017, 11:00:45 PM
Sausage and shroom square tonight - I precooked both this time. I apologize for the ugly cheese melt. Tried this other mozzarella but it went to browning before it even melted, didn't oil off at all.

Was it LMPS or WM?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 11:09:38 PM
Was it LMPS or WM?

Part skim, someone a little less pizza inclined picked it up  :P
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 25, 2017, 08:43:55 AM
Yeah, that'll happen  ;)


Oh, and if you feel the need to apologize to us for something.. ..you can apologize that we don't  ever get to taste any of these great pizzas you so consistently are turning out. Shame on you :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 25, 2017, 08:58:38 AM
Yeah, that'll happen  ;)


Oh, and if you feel the need to apologize to us for something.. ..you can apologize that we don't  ever get to taste any of these great pizzas you so consistently are turning out. Shame on you :-D
^^^
Lots of good looking bakes coming out of your kitchen.  8) 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 12:19:50 PM
Thanks guys!  :chef:

I usually do raw Italian sausage but I took a note from my buddy Hermit by pre cooking - I liked the added flavor of browning the sausage, which is hard to get when baking, and I cooked the mushrooms in the sausage fat which I think helped add some of that flavor.  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 25, 2017, 12:39:29 PM
Good looking square pie Ryan, even if the melt wasn't what you wanted.  Love the crust spring and color.  Looks like it was good eats!  What dough formula did you use?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 01:30:01 PM
Good looking square pie Ryan, even if the melt wasn't what you wanted.  Love the crust spring and color.  Looks like it was good eats!  What dough formula did you use?

Thanks Hermit! I was going for more of a grandma style thickness like post #747 but I guess the dough weight was less in that pie. I need to start taking better notes again.  :-[

Formula was
100% unbleached flour
60% water
3% butter
2% salt
.3% 60L LDMP
.25% IDY

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 25, 2017, 02:21:22 PM
Thanks for the idea...I think I may go back to precopking for while..
Definitely adds another layer of flavor
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 03:07:16 PM
Yeah, I browned the block of sausage on all 4 sides with the pan kind of hot as to not cook all the way through, so it wouldn't over cook and dry out during the bake. Made it easy to crumble. I think that was my first time precooking sausage for pizza. I figured precooking could be a good idea for this thicker type of pie since I knew it wouldn't get the volcanic boil of a stone baked pie. I think I shall look for a little bit smaller of a pan as I am trying to be a bit reserved with pizza size after all those months of testing three 17" pizzas a week... I have this little 8x8" but it's too small... Well, it's really probably not but a 12x12" might be about perfect!

http://www.bakedeco.com/detail.asp?id=1532&trng=fgle&gclid=CILDm8Hfi9QCFQiEfgodvZsFTA
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on May 25, 2017, 06:53:21 PM
Was this the new sauce from the sauce thread? How was it?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 07:38:38 PM
Was this the new sauce from the sauce thread? How was it?

Yeah, I liked it a lot but I think it needs some balancing regarding salt and sugar. Less salt, more sugar, a bit more oregano.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 26, 2017, 02:09:49 AM
What sausage was that, your own? I know everyone puts theirs on raw, but I'm finding that I don't like that taste. It's a way different taste when cooked on the pie  than pre-cooked, and maybe I just haven't had a real good sausage yet, but I think I don't like it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2017, 11:43:10 AM
What sausage was that, your own? I know everyone puts theirs on raw, but I'm finding that I don't like that taste. It's a way different taste when cooked on the pie  than pre-cooked, and maybe I just haven't had a real good sausage yet, but I think I don't like it.

This was one from a local market. It is different going on raw vs pre cooking. I'd suggest cooking on a stone if you go raw where you can get a strong enough boil below to cook it through. I've had some cooked on a pizza on screen and the flavor didn't develop right. It does tend to lack that caramelized flavor from pre cooking, but the way the fat mingles with the cheese and sauce when applied raw can be really good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 26, 2017, 12:28:30 PM
I tried some raw sausage on a HRI clone last month and it turned out good but still even on a long bake there was very little malliard reaction (425F @ 14m).  I took a dutch oven and smashed the raw sausage between two pieces of wax paper then used a very small round cookie cutter to make round sausage "slices" slightly thicker than pepperoni.  The method worked well but I think a broiler would be required to get some color on the sausage, then there's the competition with the top crust color.

So far the best use of raw sausage that I have found is in chicago deep dish as it's a 30-40 min bake, the thick slab of raw sausage is always cooked thoroughly and the flavor it imparts between the cheese and sauce is sublime.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2017, 12:36:24 PM
The method worked well but I think a broiler would be required to get some color on the sausage, then there's the competition with the top crust color.


This is my experience as well, I've tried broiling at the end to brown it a bit but you're really battling against the top crust or cheese as they seem to be done before the sausage takes on much color.

I thought your method of searing but not cooking all the way through worked really well at building flavor without it drying out.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 26, 2017, 12:54:19 PM
I wonder if a thin coating of oil on the raw sausage would help?  Seems the thinner the sausage the better chance at getting some charring.  I notice with my meatball recipe that has breadcrumbs and reggiano in the meat mixture, it gets better color than the sausage recipe which excludes those ingredients.  I am thinking about changing up the pizza a casa sausage recipe I've been following to incorporate those.  I just don't want to lose out on the simplicity of the italian sausage flavor and end up with pork meatballs.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 26, 2017, 02:14:08 PM
Ryan, this is probably crazy..almost certainly..but
Quote
but the way the fat mingles with the cheese and sauce when applied raw can be really good.


Could the fat from precooking the sausage be applied somehow to the unbaked pie...or well, even post? , to get that flavor but still have the tasty browned sausage ...which I have totally been missing..not to mention the hassle of handling raw sausage while trying to dress the pie without contaminating everything in sight...counter, containers, peel..


If run-on sentences are illegal, lock me up  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2017, 03:31:34 PM
Ryan, this is probably crazy..almost certainly..but

Could the fat from precooking the sausage be applied somehow to the unbaked pie...or well, even post? , to get that flavor but still have the tasty browned sausage ...which I have totally been missing..not to mention the hassle of handling raw sausage while trying to dress the pie without contaminating everything in sight...counter, containers, peel..


If run-on sentences are illegal, lock me up  :-D

I don't see why not - I fried my mushrooms in the sausage fat to mop up that flavor which seemed to work well, but I don't see why a drizzle on top of the cheese wouldn't work. Probably worth experimenting!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 26, 2017, 05:45:32 PM
Sure seems like it might.....hmmm, what about the oil in dough being subbed with sausage grea....uh, I mean sausage essence  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2017, 05:58:10 PM
Sure seems like it might.....hmmm, what about the oil in dough being subbed with sausage grea....uh, I mean sausage essence  :-D

I'm glad you posted that, I had thought that right after your last post but didn't dare go there  :-D
Maybe even applying it to an opened skin like it was EVOO  :-[
The crust could fry in sausage fat... I mean...  Extra Virgin Sausage Oil

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 26, 2017, 06:09:03 PM
Someone was using lard in their dough and reporting happy things.

On sausage, have you considered a very light pre-bake? Maybe a 50% light bake? I did something like that when I first started and dug it. Been thinking of doing again. It was home-made sausage and proved to be the only application in which I liked it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 26, 2017, 10:37:44 PM


I wonder if a thin coating of oil on the raw sausage would help?  Seems the thinner the sausage the better chance at getting some charring.

While I've never tried it I doubt it since the sausage already typically has a good amount of it's own fat that oozes out during cook so I doubt it'd make a difference. But another thing I've read about but haven't tried that some pizza shop in NJ or NY does is roll the raw sausage chunks in some flour prior to prior to prior to topping. The flour evidently works as a browning agent. I think that was in a Serious Eats article.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on May 26, 2017, 10:53:21 PM
Sure seems like it might.....hmmm, what about the oil in dough being subbed with sausage grea....uh, I mean sausage essence  :-D
Try bacon grease in the dough. Like 7.3% which is the same amount of evoo I use for American dough.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on May 26, 2017, 11:22:42 PM

While I've never tried it I doubt it since the sausage already typically has a good amount of it's own fat that oozes out during cook so I doubt it'd make a difference. But another thing I've read about but haven't tried that some pizza shop in NJ or NY does is roll the raw sausage chunks in some flour prior to prior to prior to topping. The flour evidently works as a browning agent. I think that was in a Serious Eats article.

It will also help control/absorb the oil slick a bit
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on May 27, 2017, 09:32:33 AM
Someone was using lard in their dough and reporting happy things.

On sausage, have you considered a very light pre-bake? Maybe a 50% light bake? I did something like that when I first started and dug it. Been thinking of doing again. It was home-made sausage and proved to be the only application in which I liked it.

That might have been me Roy. I've been using lard for a while now in my dough. It's very refined and really doesn't have much flavor. I use it because I like what it does for texture.....crispiness, chew, and keeps the crust from getting too dry during the bake. And, it incorporates easier than oil when mixing the dough.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 27, 2017, 10:33:17 AM
That might have been me Roy. I've been using lard for a while now in my dough. It's very refined and really doesn't have much flavor. I use it because I like what it does for texture.....crispiness, chew, and keeps the crust from getting too dry during the bake. And, it incorporates easier than oil when mixing the dough.

Right, I've done similar with refined coconut oil (ala Chau)
Definitely a different texture than oil.

Antilife in the Neapolitan section has been criticized heavily for his use of lard in NP... but his pies seem great and he's out there in Italy working with world class pizzaioli so...  >:D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on May 27, 2017, 11:03:35 AM
I've read the posts where they were getting on antilife's case for using lard. His pies do look great. And if he likes them, his friends and family like them, that's all that matters. I respect those who are passionate about creating a specific style using traditional and "time honored" methods and ingredients.  I really do. But if someone likes to use lard, or sugar, or pineapple, or whatever...in or on their pizza.....and it's what THEY like...then who cares? :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 27, 2017, 11:13:08 AM
 ^^^ It's not like we can't be traditional, we just choose not to for whatever reasons =)  I love non-traditional ingredients, they tend to be the exception not the rule.

On the note of using rendered animal fat.  Does it need to filter through a coffee filter or some type of screen if we are doing RT ferment?  Just concerned with bacterial growth during long RT.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on May 27, 2017, 11:38:37 AM
^^^ It's not like we can't be traditional, we just choose not to for whatever reasons =)  I love non-traditional ingredients, they tend to be the exception not the rule.

On the note of using rendered animal fat.  Does it need to filter through a coffee filter or some type of screen if we are doing RT ferment?  Just concerned with bacterial growth during long RT.

Shane....the lard I use is found on the shelf at Wal Mart near the Crisco....it should be fine for a longer RT ferment.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on May 27, 2017, 01:00:06 PM
There are sooooo many things that work and don't work and it is so context and balance sensitive. The only thing I can think of is that some take it personally when they see something working that doesn't jive with their own working dough regimen.

Ryan, speaking of doing things a bit different, I tried the pre-soaking thing we were talking about a week or two ago. I won't say the A-word as to wake up the police due to having more in it than what the good professor defined. I don't even know how to describe the end result except that it did not take me out of the NY zone. It was about as even a dough as one could hope for and held a lot of sauce and cheese up through the whole eating experience without a bit soaking through. Somewhere near the .077TF range. It was not at all "bready". Zero extra time, too. it fits into the time of my bake regimen seamlessly. ( again, speaking of doing things differently.... )   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on May 31, 2017, 08:44:33 PM
12" NY style and 12" Midwest style thin & crispy

Fermented for 10 hours at room temp today with a cooked sauce using whole peeled tomatoes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on May 31, 2017, 08:49:33 PM
Dang both those look great, you got some nice color going on.  Loving the cheese!  How much sauce and cheese did you use on the NY style?  Looks perfect  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 01, 2017, 11:54:49 AM
Thanks Hermit! I went freeform on these ones and didn't measure but I used more cheese than I normally would, I would guess 5 or 6 oz. 2 small ladles of sauce which I made from Muir Glen whole peeled tomatoes with fried tomato paste in EVOO and butter; plus black pepper, oregano, sugar, and pecorino romano. I cooked it for about 45 min.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 01, 2017, 12:12:58 PM
Butter? I was just thinking of that this morning. How do you think it was?

No added salt? I was going to stick my head above water on the sauce thread about just such a thing.

Nice looking pies, yet again. You make just about any genre look good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 01, 2017, 12:27:40 PM
Butter? I was just thinking of that this morning. How do you think it was?

No added salt? I was going to stick my head above water on the sauce thread about just such a thing.

Nice looking pies, yet again. You make just about any genre look good.

Thanks Roy - the butter bit was inspired by Kenji's sauce where he uses butter and olive oil. I've done that combo for garlic knots and like it a lot. I thought the sauce was really good by itself but on the pizza it wasn't as forward as I wanted it to be. I didn't get the oregano hit I wanted, I think I may not cook that and just add that on while building the pie. I did add salt, about 1/4 tsp or so, but I added pecorino romano also. I don't know where to go for my next sauce. I might just let the tomatoes be flavor wise but cook them just to consistency. I think the fried paste worked better with my own reduced paste versus the bitter store brand paste.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on June 01, 2017, 04:11:44 PM
I've gone off the rails a bit with my sauce, it's pretty fun to experiment.  The part I like best is adding things in and testing each ingredient at a time.  I noticed last time when I added in the black pepper the sauce really started to come together flavor wise.  I normally do salt, oregano, garlic first, then the peppers last.  My last sauce was spicy like a salsa, I had put in a decent amount of black pepper, crushed red pepper and cayenne pepper!

I've tried some with just salt, fresh basil and good tomatoes and I don't particularly care for it outside of Chicago style.  Seems we're all in the ballpark with salt amounts, I find the low salt tomatoes in 28oz cans I can use 1/2-3/4 tsp, the saltier WP tomatoes like S&W only need half of that.  I've experimented a bit with regular fine sea salt and ground himalayan pink salt.  The pink salt seems to taste better in equal amounts, and it's less sodium too.

This may sound like heresy, but I've been pretty happy with a lot of cheaper tomatoes lately, seems like adjusting the salt, sugar, and acid can bring 'em back around and make a great sauce.  I even invested in 2x big cans of S&W WP tomatoes, SM is going to take a back seat for a couple of months while I experiment.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 01, 2017, 04:47:35 PM
S&W tomatoes are pretty good. They cost as much or more as some brands I like to use.

Gonna be making a grandma pie next. Not sure what to do with the sauce. Part of me wants to hand tear whole peeled tomatoes, the other part wants to puree and cook to a thick, rich consistency and do sauce dollops or stripes.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on June 01, 2017, 07:13:29 PM
Both sound good.  Tomato bombs are enjoyable, like a topping within the sauce.  Maybe a hybrid of cooked sauce with some torn chunks of tomatoes added in.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: ashneil on June 01, 2017, 08:07:37 PM
Those are some great looking pizzas! Hope mine will turn out that good soon!  ::)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 02, 2017, 10:06:08 AM
Thanks Roy - the butter bit was inspired by Kenji's sauce where he uses butter and olive oil. I've done that combo for garlic knots and like it a lot. I thought the sauce was really good by itself but on the pizza it wasn't as forward as I wanted it to be. I didn't get the oregano hit I wanted, I think I may not cook that and just add that on while building the pie. I did add salt, about 1/4 tsp or so, but I added pecorino romano also. I don't know where to go for my next sauce. I might just let the tomatoes be flavor wise but cook them just to consistency. I think the fried paste worked better with my own reduced paste versus the bitter store brand paste.
That's interesting about the tomato pastes differences using store verses your own. I agree - I do not like paste that much. I use a teensy bit in anything I use it for. Butter in sauce was something I spotted in several places recently during a search. Not sure why it never registered before.

I'm mixing batch #3 using a variation of the pre-mix hydration technique not known specifically as autolyze due to things included in the pre-mix hydration. 1st batch interesting. 2nd batch used colder water and was better and worse. 3rd batch is some attempt at a combination of the best of both worlds. My whole regimen relies on very happy and active yeast. You can see the conflicts.  ;D 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 02, 2017, 10:08:45 AM
I've experimented a bit with regular fine sea salt and ground himalayan pink salt.  The pink salt seems to taste better in equal amounts...
Tastes better? Any idea how to qualify, or just try for myself? I'm curious. I've run into a strange place with sea salt over dosing.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 02, 2017, 11:02:17 AM
Those are some great looking pizzas! Hope mine will turn out that good soon!  ::)

Thanks! There's so much great information on this board, I guarantee with a little studying and a little hands on practice you'll be making killer pies in no time.
Both sound good.  Tomato bombs are enjoyable, like a topping within the sauce.  Maybe a hybrid of cooked sauce with some torn chunks of tomatoes added in.

That could be good, cook one can and leave another can uncooked and tear to apply as toppings. Cause getting a tasteless fresh tomato as a topping is a really miserable experience. I got some other ideas to try for sauce. I think I'll let this dough ball sit a few more days in the fridge though, my last few RT pies haven't been doing it for me flavor wise.
That's interesting about the tomato pastes differences using store verses your own. I agree - I do not like paste that much. I use a teensy bit in anything I use it for. Butter in sauce was something I spotted in several places recently during a search. Not sure why it never registered before.

I'm mixing batch #3 using a variation of the pre-mix hydration technique not known specifically as autolyze due to things included in the pre-mix hydration. 1st batch interesting. 2nd batch used colder water and was better and worse. 3rd batch is some attempt at a combination of the best of both worlds. My whole regimen relies on very happy and active yeast. You can see the conflicts.  ;D 

Yeah it's night and day. Even the "good" retail pastes like Cento and Mutti in the tubes tend to have a bitter taste, when paste should be sweet and savory!
Next bake I'm going to omit the garlic and the oil from my next sauce, and instead infuse them and apply it post bake as a topping instead of cooking it in with the tomato.

I need to do more experiments pre activating yeast. Seems worth looking into. i agree with you on the salt, been running into the same issue, I think it's easy to over salt and throw off the balance since the other toppings still have salt, HOWEVER it seems like completely omitting it turns out bland sometimes... kind of a fine line, at least for me. I think it needs a certain sweetness to cut through, every once in a while during the season you can find fresh grape tomatoes that are so sweet you can eat them by themselves like candy, absolutely incredible.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on June 02, 2017, 12:45:19 PM
Tastes better? Any idea how to qualify, or just try for myself? I'm curious. I've run into a strange place with sea salt over dosing.

It may be placebo effect/confirmation bias.  I had heard that pink salt had more flavor than sea salt based on sodium levels, and when I initially started using it, it seems true.  When I use it, it always seems to do a better job at seasoning the food with less.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 03, 2017, 08:59:31 AM
........
Yeah it's night and day. Even the "good" retail pastes like Cento and Mutti in the tubes tend to have a bitter taste, when paste should be sweet and savory!
Next bake I'm going to omit the garlic and the oil from my next sauce, and instead infuse them and apply it post bake as a topping instead of cooking it in with the tomato.

I need to do more experiments pre activating yeast. Seems worth looking into. i agree with you on the salt, been running into the same issue, I think it's easy to over salt and throw off the balance since the other toppings still have salt, HOWEVER it seems like completely omitting it turns out bland sometimes... kind of a fine line, at least for me. I think it needs a certain sweetness to cut through, every once in a while during the season you can find fresh grape tomatoes that are so sweet you can eat them by themselves like candy, absolutely incredible.
I keep meaning to remember to add my garlic while the sauce is on my mini-scale. There are two varieties of garlic around here these days. The bigger one seems ribbed and it quite a bit more "liquid" than the other is the one I like the least. The smaller one seems not to be ribbed from the outside and is less liquid. It's a bit sweeter to me. Less pungent.

I agree salt is needed. I decided overnight to adjust my other sauce seasonings to how I like it before adding any salt. It seems so simple. It's like any recipe that includes "salt to taste". So simple and obvious that it took me days to figure it out after coming to the new style of salt bitterness. (maybe I am getting old and taste buds changing - sigh...) Regardless, I would not be at all surprised to be under 1/8th tsp with 7/11's, and maybe less than that after increasing my hard cheese back up.

On the yeast pre-activation thing, I did it as one of those things that I tried once and loved the results. I suspect that it's something that is better in context of my mix than in one that has been designed around dry yeast. It does have to be in place for me to get the big flavors in 2 days. Lots of fermentation. Lots of tight, strong air pockets. The fallout from the early hydration thing is that flavor. There's a period of time where my yeast is not being so active.

That is especially as I try colder and colder water. You've mentioned up to 60 minutes. My first batch's water was in the low 70's. Second batch was mid-50's and third was 49F. First batch stretched to as even a skin as I ever had. Second batch not quite so even and had too many air pockets making for little thin spots. 3rd batch gets baked tomorrow or Monday, but I suspect it to be worse. I wonder if it would be beneficial to try going from 15-20 minutes pre-soak up to 45 minutes, or maybe an hour? I add the yeast water after the pre-soaking, which cools down the yeast, but also could be contributing to the air pockets thing.

If I can get my recently found day-2 flavors with the existence of the pre-soaking cousin to Autolyze, I would be in street slice heaven.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on June 03, 2017, 11:55:10 AM
I've been on the NY board so much that I've missed all the action here! Those were great looking pies Ryan. I look forward to seeing the Grandma.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 04, 2017, 07:27:36 AM
I went with 1/16th salt yesterday. No negative effect. I'll bake a couple during the week.

Another bake using some pre-soak strategy was yesterday. I so do want to keep this bit. I'll discuss some options in my own thread and stop hogging Ryan's air-space. I will share some high level things as it pops up in conversation, though.

One final note about it, though, is that I am very thankful to Ryan for him bringing Autolyze up again. I most recently tried it when Norm (norscosia - sp?) brought it up last autumn, but I couldn't get it to work then. Not all regimen changes work straight out of the box. I've made adjustments to include positive minor techniques in the past and will continue to do so. I've used some things learned from Autolyze in my regimen all along. Advanced hydration techniques for us home bakers without the brute force and heat that a commercial dough mixer supplies is just one more tool we home pizza dude(-ettes) have at our disposal.  If anyone here tries something and ends up with a scenario like "it worked, but left something broken', sometimes fixing what broke is the better path. This time it was good enough to try to fix what broke. 1/2 way there.  8) 8)

It may be placebo effect/confirmation bias.  I had heard that pink salt had more flavor than sea salt based on sodium levels, and when I initially started using it, it seems true.  When I use it, it always seems to do a better job at seasoning the food with less.
More flavor can be a good thing. I've wondered for years why I have not been able to detect the differences. Perhaps now....   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 05, 2017, 04:34:13 PM
Small Grandma pie, pan is 8.5 X 11"
100% AP flour
64% water
2% salt
1/8t IDY

Fermented for 5 days in the fridge, gently opened by hand on a floured work surface until just slightly smaller than the pan size.
Proofed in the pan for about 5 minutes just to relax the dough enough to stretch out the corners. Par baked for 4 minutes with latticed aged mozzarella @ 500F on the bottom rack on a preheated stone.

Added stripes of tomato sauce, Boars Head fresh mozzarella. Topped with my torn tomatoes, and stripes of a 3 cheese blend of shredded Parmesan, Romano, and Asiago. Pinch of sea salt and into the oven for 10 minutes or so. Switching between the stone on the bottom rack, and the middle rack toward the end; broiler the last minute to drive off any moisture and toast the hard cheese a bit. Garnished with hand torn fresh basil leaves and splashes of fresh garlic infused EVOO/butter blend, and a light dusting of the shredded hard cheese blend.

Sauce was Cento whole peeled; strained. Half the tomatoes were torn and set aside to strain, remaining tomatoes were pulsed in the blender with the remaining juice; cooked down to a thick consistency but not so far as to turn to paste. Seasoned with just a bit of salt and sugar to taste.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on June 05, 2017, 04:51:16 PM
Oh my! Sounds and looks amazing, very impressive effort. How'd it eat?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on June 05, 2017, 05:11:20 PM
 ^^^ Really good looking square there!  Great crumb and love the toppings.  Looks like you broke out all the stops, I bet it tasted great  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 05, 2017, 05:14:28 PM
Oh my! Sounds and looks amazing, very impressive effort. How'd it eat?

Cheers Matt!

I thought it was awesome. The fresh mozzarella adds that cheese stretch that I never seem to get. The low moisture mozz adds a deeper flavor note to the fresh mozzarella.  Intense sweet, savory tomato flavor from the cooked sauce plus the torn tomato pieces for acidity. Plenty of umami from the hard cheese blend. Sweet herb hit from the basil, nice garlic note from the garlic oil drizzle - Not so overpowering, digging that. I don't know what I would really change. Layers of flavor.

I've never seen this Boars Head fresh mozz before but I liked it a lot. It was pretty low in moisture which is great for us home bakers, I was able to slice it in nice thin slices with my bread knife. Normally slicing fresh moz so thin is difficult but this worked really well.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 05, 2017, 05:19:01 PM
^^^ Really good looking square there!  Great crumb and love the toppings.  Looks like you broke out all the stops, I bet it tasted great  :drool:

Thanks Hermit!

I went in on this one. Probably going to have to get another one of these going  :-D
Liking these garlic knots too. My dough recipe gives me enough for about 4 knots which is perfect with this size pizza. Do you let your knots proof after shaping or do you go straight into the oven?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on June 05, 2017, 05:55:40 PM
I went in on this one. Probably going to have to get another one of these going  :-D
Liking these garlic knots too. My dough recipe gives me enough for about 4 knots which is perfect with this size pizza. Do you let your knots proof after shaping or do you go straight into the oven?

I feel like giving something like this a try tomorrow maybe, but same day dough.  I am about to open a new can of tomatoes.  Good call on the knots as a side, I love that.  For the CF knots I make with extra NYish style dough I generally let the dough come up to RT or close, cut and shape the knots, then proof until they're roughly doubled in size.  I've done some emergency knots which was 2H RT ferment after mixing, then cut/shape and proof for 30-45 mins then in the oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2017, 08:25:04 PM
American style dough, Sclafani sauce, Boars Head fresh mozz, low moisture mozzarella slices, and a Parmesan/Romano/Asiago blend.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on June 17, 2017, 09:15:48 PM
Was the Sclafani any good? What did you add to it? Also have you tried Muir Glenn's fire roasted to make a sauce?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 17, 2017, 09:27:52 PM
Looks delish, Ryan.

I like the Sclafani's. It's one of my favorites. The grocery store had some of the BH Fresh on sale 2 fer $6. What kind of ratio you running fresh to regular? I've got 2 blocks of PSLM Grande left in the freezer that I might try with it.   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2017, 09:46:37 PM
Was the Sclafani any good? What did you add to it? Also have you tried Muir Glenn's fire roasted to make a sauce?

I wasn't blown away by them. I just got a case, hopefully it was just a dud can. I've read so many posts saying how sweet they are, and I found I had to add a bunch of sugar to bring them up. I added salt, pepper, red chile flake, dried oregano, garlic powder, and EVOO. I'm hoping the next can turns out better.

I have tried Muir Glen Fire Roasted to make a sauce a few times. It doesn't come out good. It's one of those things that sounds good in theory but in practice just doesn't translate. I actually think their fire roasted tomatoes tend to be quite bitter. I roast my own if I want that real roasted flavor.

Looks delish, Ryan.

I like the Sclafani's. It's one of my favorites. The grocery store had some of the BH Fresh on sale 2 fer $6. What kind of ratio you running fresh to regular? I've got 2 blocks of PSLM Grande left in the freezer that I might try with it.   

Thanks Roy, yeah these Sclafani's weren't great, I'm hoping the rest of the case is better and I just grabbed the unlucky one first. I thought they had a lot of seeds. Really nice price on that cheese! I ran about 50:50 on this pie regarding the ratio but I might try 100% boars head fresh mozz on the next one. I used some the other day in a bean burrito and it was awesome. It adds the stretch I've never been able to get to my melt.

Going to try an Einkorn crust next and see what happens. I'm just not sure how that flour is going to brown so I don't want to cook the cheese too long. The only ingredient is organic einkorn flour, so I think I will add in a bit of LDM.







Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on June 17, 2017, 10:15:48 PM
Idk, the case of Sclafani crushed I had weren't sweet either. They were actually kind of bland all around though they turned out OK I guess with my usual seasoning. The Cento all purpose that I have now are pretty sweet from the can and just a better tasting tomato.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2017, 07:42:35 AM
It's amazing how our tastes vary. For me, I could eat Sclafani Crushed straight out of the can with a spoon, but I don't like Cento all purpose at all. And the Sclafani is probably too sweet for my NY pizzas.

Ryan, just to confirm, you have the Sclafani Crushed, not the whole tomato right?


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 18, 2017, 09:11:58 AM
I wonder if we're running into the end of last season's inventory thing? My former beloved Mutti's crushed got sort of bland and extra watery on me for a couple of batches.

.............. Really nice price on that cheese! I ran about 50:50 on this pie regarding the ratio but I might try 100% boars head fresh mozz on the next one. I used some the other day in a bean burrito and it was awesome. It adds the stretch I've never been able to get to my melt.

Going to try an Einkorn crust next and see what happens. I'm just not sure how that flour is going to brown so I don't want to cook the cheese too long. The only ingredient is organic einkorn flour, so I think I will add in a bit of LDM.
I'm not familiar with Einkorn four.

50:50 sounds decent with the PSLM thing. Might try one each blended and layered. I had a hair-brained idea for a Detroiter or PH clone. Amazon is such a dangerous site. Buttery popping oil in addition/replacement of butter Crisco. I imagine it would be really good or really bad. Anyhow, I might do my first fresh moz test for that. Actually starting to sound good for today...... 

It's amazing how our tastes vary. For me, I could eat Sclafani Crushed straight out of the can with a spoon, but I don't like Cento all purpose at all.

........
I'm that way about Centos as well, but I'm thinking that it might be a good candidate for a cooked sauce for non-NY'ers. One other thing on the Centos front is that I have not tried a viscosity change with them. I've not thinned them for NY'er attempts, which I think may have helped. I did gt another can to try a few months back.     
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 18, 2017, 11:46:51 AM
Idk, the case of Sclafani crushed I had weren't sweet either. They were actually kind of bland all around though they turned out OK I guess with my usual seasoning. The Cento all purpose that I have now are pretty sweet from the can and just a better tasting tomato.

They were pretty bland to me as well.

It's amazing how our tastes vary. For me, I could eat Sclafani Crushed straight out of the can with a spoon, but I don't like Cento all purpose at all. And the Sclafani is probably too sweet for my NY pizzas.

Ryan, just to confirm, you have the Sclafani Crushed, not the whole tomato right?

Yeah, Sclafani crushed. I've used Cento AP a few times but I tend to prefer their whole peeled. I was really surprised at how seedy the Sclafani were. I pretty much taste all my tomatoes out of the can and these were up there with some of the blandest.  I hope it was just a dud can.

I wonder if we're running into the end of last season's inventory thing? My former beloved Mutti's crushed got sort of bland and extra watery on me for a couple of batches.
I'm not familiar with Einkorn four.

50:50 sounds decent with the PSLM thing. Might try one each blended and layered. I had a hair-brained idea for a Detroiter or PH clone. Amazon is such a dangerous site. Buttery popping oil in addition/replacement of butter Crisco. I imagine it would be really good or really bad. Anyhow, I might do my first fresh moz test for that. Actually starting to sound good for today...... 
I'm that way about Centos as well, but I'm thinking that it might be a good candidate for a cooked sauce for non-NY'ers. One other thing on the Centos front is that I have not tried a viscosity change with them. I've not thinned them for NY'er attempts, which I think may have helped. I did gt another can to try a few months back.     

 It's possible. I've seen it happen with pretty much all the tomato brands I've liked. I loved the Carmelina SM style tomatoes for a while, then I got some batches that were just completely tasteless. Einkorn is the ancient wheat, supposed to be really tasty and even the all purpose is 80% whole grain, so a less refined flour. ;D I've never tried it before but I've been curious for many months. It's fairly expensive though. I have no clue how it's going to turn out but the dough came together  much easier than I expected considering the decreased gluten.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 18, 2017, 01:10:24 PM
I look forward to hearing how that flour comes out, then. It'd also be interesting to know how it comes out as part of a blend like some folks, myself included, have done with Spelt. (5-10% spelt)  On the opposite end of the spectrum, the recent cake flour batch was good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 18, 2017, 01:30:06 PM
I'm thinking a 2 day CF. I've got two 320g dough balls scaled up which have been in the fridge since last night. Gonna skip the pan like last nights bake and go straight to stone. Probably do one with a nice rim to taste and one thin and crispy.

I still haven't tried Spelt, that's been on my list for a long time! Same with semolina!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norma427 on June 18, 2017, 10:05:08 PM


Going to try an Einkorn crust next and see what happens. I'm just not sure how that flour is going to brown so I don't want to cook the cheese too long. The only ingredient is organic einkorn flour, so I think I will add in a bit of LDM.

Ryan,

Don't know if you saw this thread about using the Einkorn flour for pizza.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28699.msg288797#msg288797

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

Norma
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 19, 2017, 05:43:08 PM
First bake with 100% Einkorn. I bake the cheese pizza at 500 and the thin & crispy at 450. I usually make pizzas this size 250g so the .1 TF of 320 caused me to overstretch these, so neither came out perfectly round. The thin and crispy came out so bad I had to re-ball as the gluten was degrading and it stretched into basically a dough web. I should have stuck with my original idea of making these in a pan as that would negate most of these stretching issues. I fermented for 40 hours CF, gonna have to test if this flour works better for a same day dough since it has less gluten.

Was I super impressed? Not really, but I will do more experiments and blends before I decide.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on June 19, 2017, 06:14:44 PM
I like the melt on that first pie! Anything notable this time in relation to the melt?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 19, 2017, 06:59:11 PM
I like the melt on that first pie! Anything notable this time in relation to the melt?

Tomatoes were sclafani crushed and cheese was Boars Head fresh mozz which I shredded with my box grater. I need to try a RT ferment and see how it differs in handling, not sure if the CF was good for this or not.

The thin and crispy crunched up a lot more which gave the pizza an interesting flavor. I think this Einkorn would make great crackers.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 19, 2017, 07:40:23 PM
Both look pretty nice to me. That's the only shape I made for the first few months here. Or a year. Whatever.  ;D

When did you do the re-ball? I'm reading it as if it was at stretch time.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 19, 2017, 08:51:28 PM
The dough I used for the thin and crispy was the first one I opened too far, turned into a dough web. I reballed it and opened the other dough. I rolled out the reballed dough within 30 min of reballing. This flour doesn't have a ton of gluten so it was able to roll out relatively shortly after re-balling.

I'll try some blends and see how it performs. Batteries dead in my scale, was gonna stir up another dough tonight.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 22, 2017, 08:36:08 PM
Made a 5 hour RT square. Bumped the salt up to 2.4%, thought it was a pretty good tasting dough. Better than some of my recent longer RT pizzas. Could be from the 20% Einkorn.

Sclafani based sauce with basil, oregano, EVOO, and red pepper flake which I gently simmered for 30 minutes.

Cheese is 100% Monterey Jack with a dusting of parm/Romano/Asiago blend.

Baked for 11-12 minutes @ 500F

Cheers
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on June 27, 2017, 01:44:01 AM
Were any of the other Sclafani cans better than that first one? And do you think that a 30 minute simmer is giving you a better/richer sauce than if you were to do the MAE?
Yeah I did an all monterrey jack pie recently, but it was too rich. Though, I <i>did</i> use a whole 8oz block of it on a single 14" pie and it was a ton of cheese. I think that'd be a good cheese to cut w/ LMWMM though. How did you like that cheese on there? Looks bomb as usual.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 27, 2017, 07:54:26 AM
I agree, it does look good. How was it?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 27, 2017, 02:31:33 PM
Were any of the other Sclafani cans better than that first one? And do you think that a 30 minute simmer is giving you a better/richer sauce than if you were to do the MAE?
Yeah I did an all monterrey jack pie recently, but it was too rich. Though, I <i>did</i> use a whole 8oz block of it on a single 14" pie and it was a ton of cheese. I think that'd be a good cheese to cut w/ LMWMM though. How did you like that cheese on there? Looks bomb as usual.

I would say a 30 min simmer will give you a richer sauce than MAE as the tomatoes will actually be affected. With MAE you're just infusing the oil. But I wouldn't say it's better, they are all viable techniques, just depends on what you're going for. Sometimes I do hybrid sauces where I save half the can of crushed tomatoes and add them right at the end to get this mix of cooked vs fresh flavor. That tends to work pretty well on a cooked pizza sauce too since you are going to be cooking again on the pizza.

I think the Monterey Jack is like cheddar in that they are all different. The one I used on that pizza wasn't very strong at all, but I tried another brand the other day in a burrito that had a very pronounced flavor. The Monterey Jack might be good to cut mozz with, there was a post recently in the cheese section where the OP said he prefers monterey jack. That's what made me try it. The pie was good, I'd try it again, possibly as a blend. I wonder how a mozzarella/provolone/monterey jack blend would be. Cheese blend is one thing that is never very exciting about my pies. I haven't even scratched the surface there, but I've been wantiing to try some smoked mozzarella to cut in.

I've gone through a couple cans of the Sclafani's (via Amazon) and I'm not crazy about them. I'd rather use the generic Albertsons brand "San Marzano style" packed in juice with fresh basil or Muir Glen whole peeled.

I agree, it does look good. How was it?

It was pretty good Roy but my sauce just isn't giving me what I want lately. I really need to dig deep and come up with an excellent pizza sauce. Really not crazy about the Sclafani's. I think I will try 6-in-1 next.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 27, 2017, 03:16:18 PM
6-in-1's are brighter. I froze mine straight from the can and was quite pleased. I just used mine up. I needed to "pulseify" mine. Sort of pulse thing using my stick blender - leaves me some little bits of texture, but not too much. I do for the 7/11's, sclafani's, Mutti's, etc, etc.

I was curious on the M-Jack, too. I think I tried some once, but just as a blend. Most of my cheese blends are just about texture. If it's a flavor thing, I put the additional amount straight on the sauce. Flavor, like when using sharp cheddar. I did one yesterday on the BS that had 12 grams each of a sharp cheddar and a much strong than deli type of provolone. I over shot my heat and ended up doing a 5-minute 590F orange grease pit.   ;D   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on June 27, 2017, 10:16:36 PM


I've gone through a couple cans of the Sclafani's (via Amazon) and I'm not crazy about them. I'd rather use the generic Albertsons brand "San Marzano style" packed in juice with fresh basil or Muir Glen whole peeled.

Colavita has a 28oz crushed tomato out that I saw at Walmart for $1.50 something that you may want to try. It interested me because like the Cento all purpose they're just crushed tomatoes, no citric acid or salt etc. After going through several of those Cento cans I then tried the Kroger 5TPCG OL can again, which has all those additives, and I just didn't like it. And incidentally, those Kroger whole peeled were kinda gross. IIRC, Sclafani just adds salt and nothing else. Sclafani has a 28oz whole peeled for pretty cheap at Walmart, too, though you're probably not interested in those by now.
Personally, I'm bent on not paying more than $2 a 28oz can. But these Kroger whole peeled, I really wanted to like them @ $1.13 a can; I bought a couple to make Kenji's cooked NY sauce again and the sauce came out tasting like chef boyardee ravioli 😠. Like, <i>exactly</i> the same wtf. 9
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 29, 2017, 01:11:37 PM
I haven't tried the Kroger WP but I have tried the Kroger Crushed which is 5TPCG OL (which is the same as Stanislaus 7/11, correct?)

I think I'll try Escalon 6-in-1 next. I'll keep my eyes out for those Colavita - my last favorite, DiNapoli WP seems to no longer be carried by my local store. I tend to like Cento WP and Muir Glen. Something about whole peeled tomatoes has more freshness to me, I assume it has to do with being packed in juice vs purée.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 29, 2017, 10:24:36 PM
Made a thin & crispy on the screen. Baked for 15 minutes @450F half in the bottom rack, half on the top rack.

Sclafani crushed sauce with salt, black pepper, fresh basil, and a thin sliced garlic clove.

8 oz Saputo Gold mozzarella, 4 oz Polly-O Provolone slices, nice grating of domestic Parmesan (food service... I think it's called Arrezzio? Freshly cut from the wheel today)

Topped with Dietz & Watson sliced stick pepperoni, thin sliced fresh mushrooms, and drained black olives.

Dough is KABF 61% hydration, fermented for 6 hours at RT.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 29, 2017, 11:06:51 PM
That pie looks really nice, Ryan. Did you pre-cook the Sclafani's again?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 29, 2017, 11:23:06 PM
That pie looks really nice, Ryan. Did you pre-cook the Sclafani's again?

Thanks Roy! I did not pre-cook them this time, and this was my favorite bake yet with the Sclafani's.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on June 29, 2017, 11:27:15 PM
Nice, very nice bottom, butt.....you probably heard THAT before..... >:D :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on June 29, 2017, 11:46:05 PM
Made a thin & crispy on the screen. Baked for 15 minutes @450F half in the bottom rack, half on the top rack.

Sclafani crushed sauce with salt, black pepper, fresh basil, and a thin sliced garlic clove.

8 oz Saputo Gold mozzarella, 4 oz Polly-O Provolone slices, nice grating of domestic Parmesan (food service... I think it's called Arrezzio? Freshly cut from the wheel today)

Topped with Dietz & Watson sliced stick pepperoni, thin sliced fresh mushrooms, and drained black olives.

Dough is KABF 61% hydration, fermented for 6 hours at RT.

My kind of pie Ryan! Well done!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 30, 2017, 01:21:29 AM
Thanks Jon, Bob!  :chef:

I just remembered the sauce wasn't Sclafani, it was Hunts Organic Crushed I got the other day on sale. They were really good.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on June 30, 2017, 07:47:20 AM
Great looking pie Ryan! What'd you think of the provolone and the fresh cut parm?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 30, 2017, 10:18:07 AM
Great looking pie Ryan! What'd you think of the provolone and the fresh cut parm?

Thanks Matt  8)
I liked the cheese profile of this pizza, but I probably should have got the provolone in a chunk and shredded for more even incorporation with the mozz. I think the flavor probably skewed a bit to the provolone side with the big slices on top of the mozz. The provolone made the pizza a touch salty, especially with the pepperoni and olives, so I'll keep that in mind next time. The Parmesan was nice, it was freshly cut from the wheel, but it wasn't from a brand new uncut wheel, so it's probably not the same; but it had nice flavor balance of richness and sweetness, though IMO domestic Parmesan in general doesn't seem to have the nuttiness of Reggiano. It's about half the price of reggiano, at $8.99 / lb.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on June 30, 2017, 01:25:50 PM
I had a limit to what I could take for Provolone & Mozzarella blends. I've used 3 different types. The strongest one I use is about 5%, and I prefer it on the sauce as sort of a layered thing. The other two were, on separate occasions, Sorrento and some generic g-store deli brand. 30g of about 180g total was too much. Both I prefer as blend instead of "layered". Nowadays when I use one of the two milder options, I keep it at 10% or under.

The odd thing is that combining the sharper one with one of the more milder option to up around the 20% range (total) helped each other stand out more. I've done it a couple of times and decided that it was too much. 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on June 30, 2017, 01:33:28 PM
Just had a leftover slice (cold) and I thought it really had a pizzeria quality to it. Bottom stayed crispy even overnight and fresh out the fridge - long slow bake (15 minutes) surely helping there. And i thought the uncooked sauce worked very well with the long bake, I put the screen near the element for the first half of the bake to make sure the sauce would boil. It had a freshness to it, without the weird semi-raw flavor you can get when the sauce doesn't cook through all the way. Letting the sauce marinate with fresh basil seemed to help rid any tin can taste. I want to do this sauce again with just a pepperoni pie.

After eating this cold slice, I think the provolone worked very well on this style, I just need to grate it for better distribution.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 09:14:09 AM
Just had a leftover slice (cold) and I thought it really had a pizzeria quality to it. Bottom stayed crispy even overnight and fresh out the fridge - long slow bake (15 minutes) surely helping there. And i thought the uncooked sauce worked very well with the long bake, I put the screen near the element for the first half of the bake to make sure the sauce would boil. It had a freshness to it, without the weird semi-raw flavor you can get when the sauce doesn't cook through all the way. Letting the sauce marinate with fresh basil seemed to help rid any tin can taste. I want to do this sauce again with just a pepperoni pie.

After eating this cold slice, I think the provolone worked very well on this style, I just need to grate it for better distribution.
As my game improves, so too has my taste for the cold pizza. In fact, I think you just talked me into it.

It's interesting about the sauce how the bakes make so much difference. It seemed as though too much salt was making things spike at unpredictable times for me on quicker bakes. I've had some very quick bakes for Ny Style on the BS recently and was releived when it didn't cause anything to spike. I wonder if keeping a certain amount of heat in the pie as it bakes via density and overall mass has anything to do with an even sauce boiling? For example, a 5 to 5-1/2 minute bake when I didn't plan for one that quick almost always made for a over-agressive sauce flavor, but recent ones did not.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 06, 2017, 11:00:11 PM
My sauces have all been a flop lately. I feel like I too was having the over-salted issue, but now I may be under seasoning... MAMA MIA! I noticed it took almost 5 minutes for my boil to really start last bake - the difference? 4 oz more cheese, plus I froze it for 20 min or so for grating ease as it was falling apart on the grater (Saputo Gold)
That caused clumping while applying the cheese, it's just that I put so much on it didn't become a problem, like if I had used 8 oz of cheese. I'm completely undecided on raw vs cooked. But I think I'm gonna go for another cooked sauce next go.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 07, 2017, 01:36:31 AM
Are you still baking on a stone? I have a thick stone, but I think the last pizza I made that I actually liked was one I cooked on the cast iron months ago. My doughs cooked up with a better flavor all around for me on that than the stone.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2017, 07:06:38 AM
Do you think more cheese requires more seasoning in the sauce?


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2017, 07:09:03 AM
What do you guys think of the sauce flavor when eating a cold slice? Do the herbs taste stronger after the pie sits in the fridge overnight?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 07, 2017, 08:19:58 AM
What do you guys think of the sauce flavor when eating a cold slice? Do the herbs taste stronger after the pie sits in the fridge overnight?
Mine certainly is. Ever since the end of March when I got my sauce into the neighborhood it's in now. The oregano that comes thorugh is very nice when still cold. I'm not sure if anything else is stronger, but it could be. It's a very good taste overall.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 13, 2017, 08:30:26 PM
Thin & crispy, NY, and Sicilian
Dietz & Watson pepperoni
Sclafani sauce
50:50 Part Skim Mozz / Tillamook Sharp Cheddar
Bel Gioiosio Romano

Everything baked on stone @ 500F
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 13, 2017, 08:44:24 PM
Nice Ryan! Warming up to Sclafani, or still not sold? With 50% cheddar, romano and pepperoni that must have been bursting with flavor  :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on July 13, 2017, 08:53:39 PM
Love the pizza selection!  That thin and crispy caught my eye.  Really nice looking NY and great bottom on that sicilian.   :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 13, 2017, 09:39:50 PM
Nice Ryan! Warming up to Sclafani, or still not sold? With 50% cheddar, romano and pepperoni that must have been bursting with flavor  :chef:

Thanks Matt  :) the Sclafani's are alright but I'm not sure if I'll get another case. Lots of flavor! The pepperoni is pretty bold so it needs strong flavors. I got some of their pre sliced pepperoni too which I put on the Sicilian but is hard to see. The stick pepperoni I put on the first two tends to cup and char which I used to like a lot, but sometimes it gets too overpowering.

The domestic romano is a lot milder than the Locatelli pecorino romano (cow vs sheep milk)
It tasted a lot closer to the pies that I am used to. I feel like it was a good step in the right direction today. I also used this Organic Italian Seasoning on the sauce I picked up today which has oregano, basil, marjoram, sage, and garlic.


Love the pizza selection!  That thin and crispy caught my eye.  Really nice looking NY and great bottom on that sicilian.   :chef:

Thanks Hermit! Winner: Thin & crispy!!  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on July 13, 2017, 11:21:50 PM
Thin & crispy, NY, and Sicilian
Dietz & Watson pepperoni
Sclafani sauce
50:50 Part Skim Mozz / Tillamook Sharp Cheddar
Bel Gioiosio Romano

Everything baked on stone @ 500F

Inverted, that thin and crispy is right up my alley -- So nice! What was the hydration on that one if I may ask?  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 14, 2017, 02:12:18 AM
Inverted, that thin and crispy is right up my alley -- So nice! What was the hydration on that one if I may ask?  :chef:

Thanks Jeff! The dough was the same for all these pizzas, 58% hydration, 4% oil
The thin & crispy is rolled, the NY is hand tossed, and the Sicilian proofed for 60 minutes in the pan.  :)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 14, 2017, 07:58:56 AM
Looks good to me. You might have had the best pizza buffet in town that night.  :D

What was your oven protocol on the NY'er? You still doing broiler assist?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 14, 2017, 01:00:46 PM
Looks good to me. You might have had the best pizza buffet in town that night.  :D

What was your oven protocol on the NY'er? You still doing broiler assist?

Roy I had my stone on the second rack from the bottom and preheated for an hour @ 500F. I baked everything on the stone with no broiling or rack shifting, although I would give each pie a spin about halfway through. For the Sicilian I turned the temp to 450F when I launched it just to be safe with the heat balance on a thicker pie, but I'm not sure it was necessary.

The broiler helps when I want a faster bake, but I usually don't need it for these ~10 minute stone bakes. Screened pies tend to need it too, for me. Sometimes just to jumpstart the sauce boil or it might go nowhere. The stone is a lot more predictable for me with this oven, but the preheat time can really heat this place up, especially if I just want to make a single 12" pie. There was only 2 of us here yesterday so I went way overboard  :angel: Maybe I should start freezing sauce so I don't feel bad about only needing two spoonfuls when I make a 12" pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 14, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
thanks for the info, Ryan. I attempted my first (IIRC) 500F bake in a long time today. It did OK, but the dough itself was not the best due to experiment. I will have to try again. That next rack down - the one you baked on - might have been better on this one. I could have used a bit more on the bottom for once.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 14, 2017, 08:40:02 PM
I was wondering two things:
What's the significance of your screen name and,
What are your results like when baking, say, two NY pies back to back w/ the oven cranked? I mean is the second one a bit inferior to the first one in regard to crispness and browning etc and does it have to bake longer than the first? Or do you allow stone to preheat again between pies? Just curious about the results of the thin stones because you get some great pies with those cheap (and broken) stones.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 15, 2017, 12:41:53 AM
I was wondering two things:
What's the significance of your screen name and,
What are your results like when baking, say, two NY pies back to back w/ the oven cranked? I mean is the second one a bit inferior to the first one in regard to crispness and browning etc and does it have to bake longer than the first? Or do you allow stone to preheat again between pies? Just curious about the results of the thin stones because you get some great pies with those cheap (and broken) stones.

Some kind of ode to all the great avant-garde artists who viewed life through an alternative, inverted perspective!

I like to try and let the oven regenerate some heat between pies If I can, as the thin stones do make it more challenging to bake multiple pizzas in a row. Right now when it's hot in SoCal it becomes less likely. That's why I was making the big 17" screen pies, to make up for having to do a lot of baking.  I figured the oven was as hot as it's going to get at that point, so I was getting optimum performance when just baking a single large pie. I'm always fiddling with something so sometimes the later pizzas actually come out better, as it gives me another chance at dialing everything in. Oven management is definitely the most tricky part to me.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 15, 2017, 01:28:41 AM
Some kind of ode to all the great avant-garde artists who viewed life through an alternative, inverted perspective!

I like to try and let the oven regenerate some heat between pies If I can, as the thin stones do make it more challenging to bake multiple pizzas in a row. Right now when it's hot in SoCal it becomes less likely. That's why I was making the big 17" screen pies, to make up for having to do a lot of baking.  I figured the oven was as hot as it's going to get at that point, so I was getting optimum performance when just baking a single large pie. I'm always fiddling with something so sometimes the later pizzas actually come out better, as it gives me another chance at dialing everything in. Oven management is definitely the most tricky part to me.
Ah, whereas you prefer to view things conventionally, hense the death of the inverted perspective? Or rather, it's a critique on the boring conventional perspectives of today, where the only thing that's really "alternative" in that regard anymore are the facts 😕
In my case, hi, my name is Christian and I like snacks.
I'm making a pie tonight, but I haven't had any for about 6 weeks. I started hating my pizzas. You seem to vary what you make each time which is cool whereas I've been trying to dial in the same damn thing over and over to where I just can't eat it anymore.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 15, 2017, 12:34:32 PM
Ah, whereas you prefer to view things conventionally, hense the death of the inverted perspective? Or rather, it's a critique on the boring conventional perspectives of today, where the only thing that's really "alternative" in that regard anymore are the facts 😕
In my case, hi, my name is Christian and I like snacks.
I'm making a pie tonight, but I haven't had any for about 6 weeks. I started hating my pizzas. You seem to vary what you make each time which is cool whereas I've been trying to dial in the same damn thing over and over to where I just can't eat it anymore.

I just like to question conventional perspectives and perceptions of the world. I'm a big fan of Dali and surrealism.

Snacking is hard! So many snacks, so little time. Have you tried Albanese gummy bears? Now that's a quality snack.
I know what it's like to hate my own pizzas, this last bake was the best one I've had in quite a while. When I was making a lot of big NY style pies I was really getting burnt out trying to perfect it too. Seems like some folks can keep hammering at the same style pie and others need more of a switch up. But nobody wants to be the jack of all trades, master of none either so it's nice to really have a style nailed down too. The constant pizza struggles!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on July 15, 2017, 01:42:08 PM
Ryan,

It is often said that "perfection is the enemy of the good". I have perfectionist tendencies in several areas, some of which may even be evident on this forum  :-D,  but not with pizza. For me, good enough is good enough.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on July 15, 2017, 02:56:13 PM
Ryan,

It is often said that "perfection is the enemy of the good". I have perfectionist tendencies in several areas, some of which may even be evident on this forum  :-D,  but not with pizza. For me, good enough is good enough.

Peter

Soooo true! You start getting diminishing returns and lose track of where you started! Chasing the dragon, never quite catching it! 😁
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 15, 2017, 03:23:28 PM
Soooo true! You start getting diminishing returns and lose track of where you started! Chasing the dragon, never quite catching it! 😁
Have you tried putting dragon on raw instead of pre-cooking?   

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 15, 2017, 03:31:30 PM
Have you tried putting dragon on raw instead of pre-cooking?   

 ;D ;D

Pretty sure you need a deck oven to cook raw dragon through properly.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on July 15, 2017, 05:32:20 PM
I've had iguana, about as close as I'll get to dragon! :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 15, 2017, 05:40:58 PM
I've had iguana, about as close as I'll get to dragon! :-D
You win!!!    :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 16, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
Got the itch to try another thin & crispy, this time I baked in a perforated pan with no stonage. Came out pretty sweet, might have to snag a real cutter pan to see how that compares.

Pepperoni & banana peppers today!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 16, 2017, 10:39:20 PM
sure looks good, Ryan.  :D :D  I have not tried my perforated discs yet. Must to, especially after yours looked.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 17, 2017, 04:06:31 PM
sure looks good, Ryan.  :D :D  I have not tried my perforated discs yet. Must to, especially after yours looked.

Do you have the Lloyd perf. discs? This is a Cuisineart pan I was given. I usually use it for American style doughs but I've used it a few times on thin & crispy pizza. The only issue is my oven seems hotter at the back, so if I don't time my rotation just right the undercrust will not come out evenly. I think that's why I like the stone, it acts as a buffer to even out the heat and make the bake more predictable. Like the idea of saving 30 min of preheating during the summer though. I need an electric Blackstone!

Yesterday's sauce was a step in the right direction I'd say... Pulsed this can of whole peeled through the FP, then squished that through a sieve... Wow! So smooth, now we're talking!! I thought it tasted so good with the seeds removed, I could have drank from the sauce bucket.

And I knew these tomatoes would end up being really good since it was just one random can on clearance, never to be seen again!

I think it needs more solids though for the bake time needed for this style. I think I will try the same sauce technique, but also fry some tomato paste until slightly caramelized and use that to thicken it and add umami to these thin & crispies!



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 17, 2017, 09:45:43 PM
Nope, I just have the shiny aluminum ones that I seasoned this past Spring.

My oven is the same way. I did get lucky with the turning around time in that I can let the sauce and cheese get rumbling before needing to turn. The recovery time back to rumble is quick compared to getting it rumbling for the first time after turning. The little things.

Oh no! Not the dreaded last of an item ever that tastes decently. As if struggles with sauce are not hard enough. 

Good luck with that next sauce excursion.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 19, 2017, 01:22:45 AM
Today I noticed a Boars Head 3 month aged white cheddar in the cheese section. Thought it might make a good pizza cheese. Aged long enough to have some more complexity but not so long as to be overly sharp.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 19, 2017, 07:46:44 AM
Today I noticed a Boars Head 3 month aged white cheddar in the cheese section. Thought it might make a good pizza cheese. Aged long enough to have some more complexity but not so long as to be overly sharp.
I look forward to your thoughts on that. I've like most of the BH stuff I've tried.

I would also be interested to hear your thoughts on the texture. Along the lines of whether it is somewhat creamy or is it somewhat dried and flakes a bit when grated or cut.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 19, 2017, 04:42:21 PM
El Rapido Thin & crispy
100% KABF
54% Water
1% IDY
1.5% Salt
3% Sugar
6% Coconut Oil

2 hour proof, rolled out, cut to size, and direct to stone on the 2nd rack from the top @ 450F for 13 minutes.

Sauce was "Contadina Paste with Italian Seasoning" thinned with water, and I added a touch of fennel and 1/2 tsp more herbs.  Grated some domestic Romano on top of the sauced skin plus 6 oz of mozzarella slices and some Dietz & Watson pepperoni (pre-sliced; larger diameter than their stick pepperoni)

This pizza was damn good for such instant gratitude

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on July 19, 2017, 04:47:45 PM
Wow, love the quick pie there Ryan!  Thats one of the things I enjoy about the home run inn crust, it's ready almost instantly.  Was this a 12"?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 19, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
That's some serious color!

Love the work flow. Mix a dough, power nap, turn oven on, power nap, bake pizza....and then power nap.  ;D

seriously, what's that, like 3 hours total? Sweet!

 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 19, 2017, 06:10:30 PM
Wow, love the quick pie there Ryan!  Thats one of the things I enjoy about the home run inn crust, it's ready almost instantly.  Was this a 12"?

12 incher!  :D

I've been curious about a "I want pizza now" type of thing, and this one worked out so well. It's a nice change of pace, since I imagine for most of us, pizza used to be a pretty easy/spontaneous choice that did not require much planning. This one did it right with CRUNCHY caramelized corners, and inside squares you can fold like a taco  :drool:
That's some serious color!

Love the work flow. Mix a dough, power nap, turn oven on, power nap, bake pizza....and then power nap.  ;D

seriously, what's that, like 3 hours total? Sweet!

 

Oh yeah!  8) I was pushing the color but it was totally safe, didn't go too far anywhere on it! It tends to happen with my screen bakes when I don't get the rotation just right. I raised the oil a bit from my last few pies and it was taking longer to crisp up the bottom. I think I'll drop the rack one or reduce oil back to 4%, or both.

Triple nap flow is too accurate!! 

 :-[
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 19, 2017, 06:34:45 PM
Dang that looks pretty. Anything different in the process to impact the melt?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 19, 2017, 07:04:51 PM
Dang that looks pretty. Anything different in the process to impact the melt?

Thanks! ;D This is 100% mozzarella, (sans romano on the sauce) the last couple bakes were 50:50 mozz/ sharp white cheddar. Also this was baked on stone and the one a few days ago was baked in pan.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 20, 2017, 06:44:21 AM
What are you rolling the dough with? I haven't made a crisp pizza yet, but I just got a marble rolling pin to do it. It's so heavy it could kill someone so I expect it to roll that stiff dough pretty easily.
I forget how you're mixing your doughs; you have a stand mixer or is it by hand all the time?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 20, 2017, 12:09:30 PM
What are you rolling the dough with? I haven't made a crisp pizza yet, but I just got a marble rolling pin to do it. It's so heavy it could kill someone so I expect it to roll that stiff dough pretty easily.
I forget how you're mixing your doughs; you have a stand mixer or is it by hand all the time?

Just a wooden rolling pin, these formulas aren't super stiff like a 30-40% hydration dough so they aren't so bad. I used to skip making this style because it was a lot of work rolling the dough, but if you do a low and slow bake you can still get the crunch factor.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 20, 2017, 12:41:39 PM
Just a wooden rolling pin, these formulas aren't super stiff like a 30-40% hydration dough so they aren't so bad. I used to skip making this style because it was a lot of work rolling the dough, but if you do a low and slow bake you can still get the crunch factor.
I've recently wondered how you would classify the pressure applied. Just the weight of the pin itself, or do you apply a bit of force?

Sorry to butt in, csnack.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 20, 2017, 01:39:01 PM
What are you rolling the dough with? I haven't made a crisp pizza yet, but I just got a marble rolling pin to do it. It's so heavy it could kill someone so I expect it to roll that stiff dough pretty easily.
I forget how you're mixing your doughs; you have a stand mixer or is it by hand all the time?

Forgot to add that I hand mix 99% of the time. I did play with the food processor for a bit, but I kind of like the whole process. Plus I ruined the FP the other day, counter space is limited here so I had pureed an avocado sauce in it and set it on the stove while I made my burrito, but I accidentally turned on the front burner instead of the back burner with my comal to warm my tortilla, and my FP bowl melted a bit right where the safety lock is.  :-[


I've recently wondered how you would classify the pressure applied. Just the weight of the pin itself, or do you apply a bit of force?

Sorry to butt in, csnack.

It depends on the formula and procedure, yesterdays bake was such a fast process that it did not have much time for the gluten to relax, so it was a little resilient, but not bad. The super low hydration doughs are much harder, the formula I posted yesterday opened pretty easily, but I'm not sure if oil percentage is right or not. I want the bite through to be tender, but the bottoms crunchy. I figure there must be a fine line between those two variables with oil %. More pies will tell  ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 20, 2017, 01:57:25 PM
Damn that blows about the fp, is it irreparable?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 20, 2017, 02:08:32 PM
It depends on the formula and procedure, yesterdays bake was such a fast process that it did not have much time for the gluten to relax, so it was a little resilient, but not bad. The super low hydration doughs are much harder, the formula I posted yesterday opened pretty easily, but I'm not sure if oil percentage is right or not. I want the bite through to be tender, but the bottoms crunchy. I figure there must be a fine line between those two variables with oil %. More pies will tell  ;D
Makes sense. Thanks!  8)

.......More pies will tell  ;D
Indeed!!!   :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 20, 2017, 02:24:17 PM
Damn that blows about the fp, is it irreparable?

Oh yeah, but I'm skeptical to replace the bowl for nearly the price of a whole new unit for extra parts.

http://www.biglots.com/product/8-cup-food-processor/p810172919?zcp=PD_PLA_go_WeeklyDeals_Clearance_810172919&product_id=810172919&adpos=1o1&creative=148548995265&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKCAjwqcHLBRAqEiwA-j4AyCwh6Bq45Gyaav5Cdk-R9oZFj_aY_2hoKflh3WR_tpjJai3TQCHjFhoC0eEQAvD_BwE

Versus just the bowl

https://www.hamiltonbeach.com/bowl-70740-990122600
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 12:02:57 AM
NY Style using KABF @ 55% hydration and a .075 TF

Pretty happy with how this one came out.

Sauce is Cento Whole Peeled tomatoes, pulsed in the blender then ran through a sieve to remove the seeds. This was cooked for about 30 minutes with a small amount of black pepper, oregano, and granulated garlic added, plus salt and sugar. The end result is something still thin-ish which I was going for.

This dough handled very well, this hydration keeps the dough from getting away from you too fast or easily, even with a thin pizza like this.

I grated some domestic Romano cheese on top of the sauced skin, some fresh basil leaves, and a sliced up 8 oz ball of Boars Head fresh mozzarella.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 23, 2017, 09:48:21 AM
Ryan, that is nice. Veddy nice.

You hit water % on KABF that I have not been able to successfully do. Did you do your long autolyze?

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 23, 2017, 10:39:18 AM
Nice one Ryan! Have you tried throwing some Romano or parm into the sauce as it cooks? I'm tempted to try parm in a cooked sauce and Romano on top.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Kreetak on July 23, 2017, 11:00:13 AM
nice crust!  :chef: Seems perfect NY pizza
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 12:30:38 PM
Thanks friends for the continuous inspiration  :D

Ryan, that is nice. Veddy nice.

You hit water % on KABF that I have not been able to successfully do. Did you do your long autolyze?

Roy

Roy,

No autolyse on this one, straight mix. This is one of those doughs that takes me a touch more effort to hand mix, but after fermenting comes out plenty soft and extensible. Granted, I still was not able to throw the dough around yesterday like a Mack's video, but it was resilient enough in opening to get a pretty evenly stretched skin that handled more than a fair share of manipulation, so I was happy  :) This one went for about 60 hours CF.

Nice one Ryan! Have you tried throwing some Romano or parm into the sauce as it cooks? I'm tempted to try parm in a cooked sauce and Romano on top.



I have tried that, but I change my sauce so much I don't really have any baseline standard to compare it to. Honestly I still get gun-shy when seasoning my sauce after reading all those old posts on here about how NY should just be tomato + oregano, so I tend to question my amounts. I'm definitely enjoying these smooth seedless sauces. There may be a food mill in my future!

Still unsure about the "pasta" taste of parmesan in NY pizza. I'm enjoying this domestic romano a lot more than the Locatelli, but that might be my out of town tastebuds. Or my Locatelli was really old and past its prime?

nice crust!  :chef: Seems perfect NY pizza

Thanks KreetaK!  :chef:





Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 23, 2017, 12:56:42 PM
Ryan, that is so cool. Good strength throughout the crumb, I assume.

Was there any oil? I've got KABF on high my list of blend experiments. 

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 01:24:42 PM
Ryan, that is so cool. Good strength throughout the crumb, I assume.

Was there any oil? I've got KABF on high my list of blend experiments. 

Roy

100% KABF
55% RT water
.25% IDY
1% sugar
2% salt
3% oil

By the way, new bake protocol on this pie yesterday Roy. Since I'm down to just a 12" stone and this size pie is too big for my false ceiling, I inverted my Nordicware big Pan on the lowest rac,k https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Ware-Natural-Aluminum-Commercial/dp/B0064OM53G and put the screen directly on the pan to get some kind of conduction decking underneath instead of just waiting for air temp to cook the pizza. Alhough, now that you have that bad ass little oven, you might not ponder the phrase "false ceiling" ever again!!  :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 23, 2017, 01:37:41 PM
100% KABF
55% RT water
.25% IDY
1% sugar
2% salt
3% oil

By the way, new bake protocol on this pie yesterday Roy. Since I'm down to just a 12" stone and this size pie is too big for my false ceiling, I inverted my Nordicware big Pan on the lowest rac,k https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Ware-Natural-Aluminum-Commercial/dp/B0064OM53G and put the screen directly on the pan to get some kind of conduction decking underneath instead of just waiting for air temp to cook the pizza. Alhough, now that you have that bad ass little oven, you might not ponder the phrase "false ceiling" ever again!!  :D
Thanks, Ryan. I got it saved off. The great thing is that it is very close to my lower oil option. It should fit right in.  :chef:

Man, you know the whole curiosity streak in me. besides, having a mini-deck right here to do A/B testing with...  too much fun.  >:D 

Incidentally, one of the best little pies I ever made was a total experiment and proof of concept and, sigh, I was never able to repeat it. It used an upside down cast and a ceiling that was the same as the last test...except for the height of the sides of the cast iron. Like I said, never repeated. doh! 
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41382.msg416044#msg416044 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41382.msg416044#msg416044)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 01:56:45 PM
Thanks, Ryan. I got it saved off. The great thing is that it is very close to my lower oil option. It should fit right in.  :chef:

Man, you know the whole curiosity streak in me. besides, having a mini-deck right here to do A/B testing with...  too much fun.  >:D 

Incidentally, one of the best little pies I ever made was a total experiment and proof of concept and, sigh, I was never able to repeat it. It used an upside down cast and a ceiling that was the same as the last test...except for the height of the sides of the cast iron. Like I said, never repeated. doh! 
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41382.msg416044#msg416044 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41382.msg416044#msg416044)

You just never know what you're gonna get! Some of my best ones I've not been able to repeat either. I still haven't been able to clone that super thin, orange sheen blanketed slice pie I made about a year ago. My old oven just had juice I can't squeeze from my current one. I think that makes a big difference with the screen started pies in getting the whole show going.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 23, 2017, 02:22:56 PM
...Honestly I still get gun-shy when seasoning my sauce after reading all those old posts on here about how NY should just be tomato + oregano, so I tend to question my amounts...

Still unsure about the "pasta" taste of parmesan in NY pizza. I'm enjoying this domestic romano a lot more than the Locatelli, but that might be my out of town tastebuds. Or my Locatelli was really old and past its prime?


No need to be gunshy. Make the sauce as you like based on your tastes. I also think that NY sauces have alot going on, it's just that the individual flavors aren't overwhelming (except sometimes oregano).

I know what you mean about the parm. I avoided it for a while.  But I'm liking it now when it's paired with double amount of Romano.

Which domestic Romano are you using?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 23, 2017, 02:56:06 PM
No need to be gunshy. Make the sauce as you like based on your tastes. I also think that NY sauces have alot going on, it's just that the individual flavors aren't overwhelming (except sometimes oregano).

I know what you mean about the parm. I avoided it for a while.  But I'm liking it now when it's paired with double amount of Romano.

Which domestic Romano are you using?
^^^    pretty much everything.

Ryan, just in case you were at all concerned with one description I've heard, the sauce I came up with and many of the other heavy handed herb and spices sauces do not at all come out like pasta sauce. It's hard to explain, but it all seems like the tomatoes exploded with tiny hints of herbs and spices. I mistook the fresh tomatoes NY sauce thing for a long, long time.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 02:58:59 PM
It's belgioioso. I can put a lot more on, like in that video that was posted. I could never put on Locatelli in amounts like that but I'm pretty mild when it comes to cheese in general. Not a cheese-head by any means.
Title: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2017, 03:19:22 PM
^^^    pretty much everything.

Ryan, just in case you were at all concerned with one description I've heard, the sauce I came up with and many of the other heavy handed herb and spices sauces do not at all come out like pasta sauce. It's hard to explain, but it all seems like the tomatoes exploded with tiny hints of herbs and spices. I mistook the fresh tomatoes NY sauce thing for a long, long time.

Roy

Yep, pasta sauce is one cautious term I have heard! I just reheated a slice and this was definitely one of my best pies yet. The sauce was really good. Very nice sweetness to it, and the fresh basil worked great at adding in brightness despite cooking the sauce. I'm going to see if I can find Asiago Fresco, curious to try that as a main pizza cheese.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 24, 2017, 10:35:27 AM
That my slice?
You know some time ago I thought about creating my own thread like this, but I'll just watch yours and the others. It's enough that I keep my own notes. Honestly there's really nothing unique or interesting about watching a guy try to dial in the same f'n thing over the course of 109 pizzas lol
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 24, 2017, 10:54:56 AM
That my slice?
You know some time ago I thought about creating my own thread like this, but I'll just watch yours and the others. It's enough that I keep my own notes.
No, that is mine. Keep away. I'm a large, hungry man.  >:D
Seriously, though, I wish you and others would start these types of threads. 

Honestly there's really nothing unique or interesting about watching a guy try to dial in the same f'n thing over the course of 109 pizzas lol
To each their own. In my case, it was all about a specific mountain to climb. Matching up a flavor to two pizza memories and a crust from many pizza memories from a region. To me, that goal's reward is a pie that I could eat several times a week whereas everything else to me is so far inferior that getting it from a pizzeria twice in a row over a 2-months span got really old, cruel and mundane. Doing it with gear ill-suited for the purpose was the challenge, which in the end, required detail or minutia that simply took time. Besides, it was supposed to be impossible.

Like I said, to each their own.     
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 24, 2017, 03:05:46 PM
No, that is mine. Keep away. I'm a large, hungry man.  >:D
Seriously, though, I wish you and others would start these types of threads. 
To each their own. In my case, it was all about a specific mountain to climb. Matching up a flavor to two pizza memories and a crust from many pizza memories from a region. To me, that goal's reward is a pie that I could eat several times a week whereas everything else to me is so far inferior that getting it from a pizzeria twice in a row over a 2-months span got really old, cruel and mundane. Doing it with gear ill-suited for the purpose was the challenge, which in the end, required detail or minutia that simply took time. Besides, it was supposed to be impossible.

Like I said, to each their own.     
Yeah. I'm just burnt out. I like how you guys turn out something cool and new each time. I've been trying to nail one thing down for a long time; something that I'd be proud to make and share w/ someone, and it's not that I haven't made some nice pies, but the other night was the last straw. That pizza went straight from the oven to the garage disposal lol. I accidentally poked a hole in the bottom trying to release an air bubble that was pushing the pizza up from underneath immediately after launch and of course that section stuck to the stone. I mangled it further getting it out and though I could've salvaged some for dinner I just turned around and launched that pos into the sink lol and flipped the switch and shoved it down. I'm done for a while. I'm flying out to Ryan here's house for a couple slices next time. I'm not even gonna say when I'll show up; I just know there's an excellent chance that whenever I do randomly appear he'll have a pizza going
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 24, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
Yeah. I'm just burnt out. I like how you guys turn out something cool and new each time. I've been trying to nail one thing down for a long time; something that I'd be proud to make and share w/ someone, and it's not that I haven't made some nice pies, but the other night was the last straw. That pizza went straight from the oven to the garage disposal lol. I accidentally poked a hole in the bottom trying to release an air bubble that was pushing the pizza up from underneath immediately after launch and of course that section stuck to the stone. I mangled it further getting it out and though I could've salvaged some for dinner I just turned around and launched that pos into the sink lol and flipped the switch and shoved it down. I'm done for a while. I'm flying out to Ryan here's house for a couple slices next time. I'm not even gonna say when I'll show up; I just know there's an excellent chance that whenever I do randomly appear he'll have a pizza going
I am sorry to hear the last straw of disgust. I have definitely done the pie straight to the garbage thing. More than once.  :-[ 

Some folks around here can do all kinds of different pies at the flip of the switch. I'm not one of them.  :(  I gotta try, fix and try before coming close.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2017, 08:44:06 PM
That my slice?
You know some time ago I thought about creating my own thread like this, but I'll just watch yours and the others. It's enough that I keep my own notes. Honestly there's really nothing unique or interesting about watching a guy try to dial in the same f'n thing over the course of 109 pizzas lol

I disagree, I'd enjoy your posts. Keeping notes are a must, but there's nothing like the help you'd get by posting your pies here.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 25, 2017, 01:16:02 AM
Yeah. I'm just burnt out. I like how you guys turn out something cool and new each time. I've been trying to nail one thing down for a long time; something that I'd be proud to make and share w/ someone, and it's not that I haven't made some nice pies, but the other night was the last straw. That pizza went straight from the oven to the garage disposal lol. I accidentally poked a hole in the bottom trying to release an air bubble that was pushing the pizza up from underneath immediately after launch and of course that section stuck to the stone. I mangled it further getting it out and though I could've salvaged some for dinner I just turned around and launched that pos into the sink lol and flipped the switch and shoved it down. I'm done for a while. I'm flying out to Ryan here's house for a couple slices next time. I'm not even gonna say when I'll show up; I just know there's an excellent chance that whenever I do randomly appear he'll have a pizza going

Post more about what you are trying to improve! This thread is mostly a think tank that has all kinds of great information in here from other members, way more than just pictures of my pizza. This site is full of gems of information hidden in threads like this. Sometimes I just read old posts on here. It's good to switch things up though. You never know when you're gonna get a breakthrough either. Some of my biggest a-ha moments have happened in just the last few bakes.




Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 25, 2017, 12:11:44 PM


This site is full of gems of information hidden in threads like this. Sometimes I just read old posts on here.
Word digging up old posts is most of what I've been doing in my year+ here. My last few pies on the stone were giving me great browning on the bottom w/ 2% sugar, but an albino rim. I had to leave it in there longer than 7min just to get it almost blonde and that's even w/ some broiler action on some of them, but rims were just refusing to brown, it was weird. But last night I dug up an '04 post which happened to be from Pete where he said that an overfermented dough will struggle to brown if at all due to all the sugars having been gobbled up. That was something I already knew, but had slipped my mind. Lately, I've been tending to let my RT doughs go to the brink and sometimes a little beyond. Part of that was due to waiting on the warranty replacement of my .01g scale (which I received the other day) and meantime using a courser scale, and just getting sidetracked while the dough was going and just using it when I got around to it. The bottoms of the fermented doughs when pulled from the container had that spongy wet marshmallow thing going, indicative of overfermentaion. I was conscious of that, but I had forgotten about such a dough's inability to brown properly until I read that old post. I bet that's the problem, and it <i>is</i> a recent problem. I'll make one more pie later this week and see, but then I need to eat something else for a while. Anything. My freezer is packed with various slices from I don't know how many pizzas. I'm gonna try Kenji's gyro recipe. Which I'm sure I'll end up making a pizza out of
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 25, 2017, 01:18:19 PM
What oven rack is your stone on? If the rim is not browning have you tried moving the stone closer to the top of the oven? The thermal mass of the stone will still provide good conduction, and radiant heat off the top of the oven should help brown it and cook the pie evenly. I'm getting hungry just thinking about pizza  :-[ I think I'm out of flour. I want to do some more high gluten experiments, with KABF I just find it hard to get chew out of my slices if I add any oil at all to tenderize the crumb.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 25, 2017, 02:10:29 PM
My pies' outer rims are light. Blonde on purpose, but I despise the aesthetics of a pasty lily white crust that looks almost ghastly in palor. Like it was sick or something. I once got into a 2-week rut of these and the big switch was going to bottled water. I happened to hear our city announced more chlorine due to flooding issues.

Point is, it can be a lot of things. Including all those fermentation cycles and available sugars (and types) at bake time. I tried to map it out, but my head spun off.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 26, 2017, 02:01:49 AM
What oven rack is your stone on? If the rim is not browning have you tried moving the stone closer to the top of the oven? The thermal mass of the stone will still provide good conduction, and radiant heat off the top of the oven should help brown it and cook the pie evenly. I'm getting hungry just thinking about pizza  :-[ I think I'm out of flour. I want to do some more high gluten experiments, with KABF I just find it hard to get chew out of my slices if I add any oil at all to tenderize the crumb.
My pies' outer rims are light. Blonde on purpose, but I despise the aesthetics of a pasty lily white crust that looks almost ghastly in palor. Like it was sick or something. I once got into a 2-week rut of these and the big switch was going to bottled water. I happened to hear our city announced more chlorine due to flooding issues.

Point is, it can be a lot of things. Including all those fermentation cycles and available sugars (and types) at bake time. I tried to map it out, but my head spun off.
My oven's vertically challenged @ about 13" from bottom heating element to ceiling. Four usable rack slots just slightly over 2" apart from the next. The top most rack is the last one left to try w/ just slightly under 5" from stone surface to ceiling. I've got the sugar in this new ball @ 3% and my oil @ 5%. I'm after a tender crumb w/ some chew and I'm pretty much achieving that texture w/ that oil% so no complaints there. Hybrid type of dough. I'm gonna make one on Friday. If it's not the fermentation I'll try bottled water. I'm cool with a blonde crust, but these rims lately, though they spring up in there, just look pale like a marshmallow. I usually preheat stone for 2+ hours @ max 550, but my IR gun will be here soon and I'll be able to run legitimate tests.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 26, 2017, 02:23:34 AM
My oven's vertically challenged @ about 13" from bottom heating element to ceiling. Four usable rack slots just slightly over 2" apart from the next. The top most rack is the last one left to try w/ just slightly under 5" from stone surface to ceiling. I've got the sugar in this new ball @ 3% and my oil @ 5%. I'm after a tender crumb w/ some chew and I'm pretty much achieving that texture w/ that oil% so no complaints there. Hybrid type of dough. I'm gonna make one on Friday. If it's not the fermentation I'll try bottled water. I'm cool with a blonde crust, but these rims lately, though they spring up in there, just look pale like a marshmallow. I usually preheat stone for 2+ hours @ max 550, but my IR gun will be here soon and I'll be able to run legitimate tests.

Have you tried baking at 500? I find you can do a lot of fine tuning between temperature and rack together. I've had to turn down oven temp (essentially just a slower bake) for some pies to get more top browning.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on July 26, 2017, 05:21:21 AM
Have you tried baking at 500? I find you can do a lot of fine tuning between temperature and rack together. I've had to turn down oven temp (essentially just a slower bake) for some pies to get more top browning.
No but that's not a bad idea. I've always tried to get the fastest bake possible so the dough doesn't get tough from the longer cook, but I suppose I can try that and compensate w/ more oil if necessary. Another good thing to try anyway if the other troubleshooting doesn't work. I won't be resorting to malt powder. I don't have that stone dialed in w/ my oven yet like I do w/ my cast iron. Cast iron gets it done in like 5min or less and turned out the best pizzas I've made, but I hate that f'n lip on that pan or I'd be using it. I keep debating as to whether or not I'm gonna get steel, and I probably will just to have it, but not before I've got the stone dialed in. Then I'll get the dough joe 1/2". That'll have me w/ three different baking surfaces. Cuz I'm a damn pizza geek now or something.
Also, you should score you some of these 6 in 1, I'd like to see how you like them. This is the first tomato for me that needed no salt or sugar and I like a sweet sauce w/ good salt. It's just a crazy rich tomato, at least mine are. I did an MAE w/ 2 tsp California Olive Ranch evoo, 1/2 tsp dried oregano, 1/4 tsp grated fresh garlic and 1/4 tsp red pepper flakes. I'm not a tomato out of the can guy and usually like a bolder sauce, but these just don't need much. I sent that last pizza down the sink so I haven't tried them on a pie yet, but I will Friday.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 26, 2017, 01:49:04 PM
No but that's not a bad idea. I've always tried to get the fastest bake possible so the dough doesn't get tough from the longer cook, but I suppose I can try that and compensate w/ more oil if necessary. Another good thing to try anyway if the other troubleshooting doesn't work. I won't be resorting to malt powder. I don't have that stone dialed in w/ my oven yet like I do w/ my cast iron. Cast iron gets it done in like 5min or less and turned out the best pizzas I've made, but I hate that f'n lip on that pan or I'd be using it. I keep debating as to whether or not I'm gonna get steel, and I probably will just to have it, but not before I've got the stone dialed in. Then I'll get the dough joe 1/2". That'll have me w/ three different baking surfaces. Cuz I'm a damn pizza geek now or something.
Also, you should score you some of these 6 in 1, I'd like to see how you like them. This is the first tomato for me that needed no salt or sugar and I like a sweet sauce w/ good salt. It's just a crazy rich tomato, at least mine are. I did an MAE w/ 2 tsp California Olive Ranch evoo, 1/2 tsp dried oregano, 1/4 tsp grated fresh garlic and 1/4 tsp red pepper flakes. I'm not a tomato out of the can guy and usually like a bolder sauce, but these just don't need much. I sent that last pizza down the sink so I haven't tried them on a pie yet, but I will Friday.

I really want to try them but that's a pricy tomato, almost as much as I can get a whole #10 can of 7/11 for. I want to get a food mill and experiment with some of these tomatoes again.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 27, 2017, 10:12:10 PM
I think I hit the lottery today.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 28, 2017, 06:59:37 AM
I actually gasped out loud on the train when I saw your pics. Way to go Ryan! Details please  :chef:




Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 28, 2017, 08:31:51 AM
I think I hit the lottery today.
Your test focus group hit the lottery. Mighty fine.
You gonna share whatchyu dun?   :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 28, 2017, 01:07:04 PM
Thanks guys! Pretty happy with how this melt came out, I think just a touch more cheese would have nailed it. I was going to do 12 oz but decided to do 10, but I think the pock-marking suggests a little more coverage would have helped. Mozz was Sorrento WMLM + a nice grating of domestic romano. Standard low hydration (57%) dough @ .075TF. This one went about 5 hours @ RT.

Sauce was one 6 oz can of Muir Glen tomato paste + 1 can of tomato juice, + salt, black pepper, oregano, and granulated garlic. A few basil leaves for good measure since I had them. This sauce very much had a "pizzeria" smell and taste to it I thought, another taster said the sauce was superb. I baked for 10 minutes @ 550, 2nd rack from the bottom, on screen, on top of my inverted Nordicware sheet pan.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on July 28, 2017, 04:38:39 PM
Very nice Ryan, looks like a proper NY slice to me!   :pizza:  How much sauce did you use and was this a 17"?  Glad to hear this sauce is working out, I recently started enjoying my sauce more with an increase in black pepper.  I'd still like to try some of that ground fennel too, I just cant find it anywhere local.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 28, 2017, 09:38:56 PM
This 10 minute bake supports my consideration of going longer than my usual 7:30.

I agree, a little more mozz would probably be a good thing.

I forgot to comment earlier, the eveness of the slice thinness is very impressive.

The Romano was on top of the mozz pre bake? Or on top of the sauce?


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 29, 2017, 02:06:28 AM
Very nice Ryan, looks like a proper NY slice to me!   :pizza:  How much sauce did you use and was this a 17"?  Glad to hear this sauce is working out, I recently started enjoying my sauce more with an increase in black pepper.  I'd still like to try some of that ground fennel too, I just cant find it anywhere local.

Thanks Hermit  :chef:

Not sure on sauce amount, I don't typically weigh it but I will say that the tomato paste could have been thinned even more than one can of tomato juice provides. It really is stretchable. Got some family in town so I'll be making a few pies tomorrow and get to play around again. I still don't have amounts dialed it, I think I might increase a bit on this next try. Black pepper adds a really nice zestiness is higher amounts I think. Do you have a spice grinder? I have a Blendtec and ran some fennel seeds in there, use it in my italian sausage, and sometimes in my thin & crispy sauce.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 29, 2017, 02:18:17 AM
This 10 minute bake supports my consideration of going longer than my usual 7:30.

I agree, a little more mozz would probably be a good thing.

I forgot to comment earlier, the eveness of the slice thinness is very impressive.

The Romano was on top of the mozz pre bake? Or on top of the sauce?

10 minute bake is my usual on screen, it's hard for me to get a bake any quicker in this oven unless it's a stone bake. 10 minutes seems pretty common from reading posts from Harry and Walter. Though it's absolutely against Scott123's logic.

Thanks! Yeah I got a pretty good stretch on this one, I was really happy with the profile. And it was a same day dough so the dough was pretty strong and robust. The romano was on top of the sauce. I was going to grate some on top of the cheese too but forgot, my mind was just on getting it in the oven. I keep wanting to turn it to powder in the food processor like I did with the Locatelli for easy seasoning, I feel like I don't get the same portion control by grating it on as doing it by hand. Kind of how I like to feel salt in a salt cellar, versus from a grinder or shaker. Do you usually put some on top of the cheese too? I'm going to try 12 oz mozz tomorrow. Maybe 14 - I'll probably make at least two pies since the kids are here. I'm curious to try carrot juice to thin the tomato paste, but I'm not sure how much to try. I want a real sweet sauce but not one that tastes offputting, just sweet in a refreshing contrast against the cheese and crust.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 29, 2017, 07:38:31 PM
Well I think you know which side of the NY bake time argument (Harry vs Scott) that I favor. After baking 4 minute pies for over a year, my first 7 minute bake made me never look back.

My hard cheeses generally go on top of the sauce only. From your earlier post it wasn't clear to me where your romano went, thanks for clarifying. Good luck with the higher mozz bake and sauce experiments.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 29, 2017, 10:18:03 PM
Today's slice
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 29, 2017, 10:24:34 PM
dude, those are even better than the previous. Send them on tis way.  ;D    ;D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 30, 2017, 01:10:12 AM
dude, those are even better than the previous. Send them on tis way.  ;D    ;D

 ;D I'm getting closer! Inverted sheet pan on the bottom rack this bake, but turned the temp down to 500 from 550F. Ceccato "Strained tomato" sauce base this time, similar to Pomi. I think my paste version may have been better though!  >:D This didn't quite have the same "pizzeria smell" the sauce a few days ago did.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 30, 2017, 07:16:23 AM
Nice Ryan. Same bake time as previous, or longer given the lower temp? Did you wind up increasing the mozz amount?

Why'd you decide to lower the temp after the previous bake?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 30, 2017, 07:51:38 AM
Nice Ryan. Same bake time as previous, or longer given the lower temp? Did you wind up increasing the mozz amount?

Why'd you decide to lower the temp afte r the previous bake?
On a side note:
I am not speaking for Ryan, but the reason I dropped from 550F down to low 500's was cuz of the melts you were getting.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 30, 2017, 08:01:17 AM
;D I'm getting closer! Inverted sheet pan on the bottom rack this bake, but turned the temp down to 500 from 550F. Ceccato "Strained tomato" sauce base this time, similar to Pomi. I think my paste version may have been better though!  >:D This didn't quite have the same "pizzeria smell" the sauce a few days ago did.
I've got an unopened can of the Saporito and a can of a Bonita(? by the company that does the 6 in 1's) and have been curious about trying a non-crushed base for a sauce. My regular sauce passed the test of time, so I can certainly tinker about and find another one not quite so bright for other types of pie. That tomato juice thing is interesting. ATK has a sauce with their meatballs that uses it and turns out nice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on July 30, 2017, 08:48:28 AM
On a side note:
I am not speaking for Ryan, but the reason I dropped from 550F down to low 500's was cuz of the melts you were getting.

Appreciate that Roy! Given my bakes are in the Blackstone, I'm not certain what the corresponding oven (air) temp would be. I think more by bake time.


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2017, 09:04:00 AM
....and a can of a Bonita(? by the company that does the 6 in 1's)...
Roy,

Escalon, the company that makes the 6in1s, makes a product called Bonta:

http://www.escalon.net/product-brands/Bonta.

FYI, Mellow Mushroom uses both the 6in1s and one of the Bonta products (I think it is the Bonta pizza sauce), together with a "pizza spice", water and olive oil to make its pizza sauce.

In case I interpreted your post wrong, I might also add that there is a tomato product called San Benito, from a company called Neil Jones Food company:

http://www.neiljonesfoodcompany.com/brand/san-benito/.

The tomatoes used by Neil Jones are also fresh-pack tomatoes.

Peter

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on July 30, 2017, 10:48:19 AM
Peter, thanks for the links. It is the Bonta Pizza Sauce with Basil. I simply guessed that it was Escalon's answer to Stanislaus' Saporito w/basil.

Appreciate that Roy! Given my bakes are in the Blackstone, I'm not certain what the corresponding oven (air) temp would be. I think more by bake time.
The oven temp with the BS surely is a guessing game. The outer thermometer - the numbers may as well be letters in A-Z.  ;D 

It was pretty easy to see that path to the cheese melt when I dropped some successive bakes.   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on July 30, 2017, 11:27:01 AM
Nice Ryan. Same bake time as previous, or longer given the lower temp? Did you wind up increasing the mozz amount?

Why'd you decide to lower the temp after the previous bake?

I went down one rack, from the second, back to the bottom again. I dropped the temp to compensate for bottom color development so it wouldn't outrun the top. Bake time was pretty much the same. I did 12 oz on the cheese pie and 11 oz on the pepperoni. Would have maybe tried 14 but I was out. I knew I was going to make pizza when the kids got in town, but I didn't expect it to be two days after I just made pies!! I never got to the store yesterday so had to just work with what I had.

I've got an unopened can of the Saporito and a can of a Bonita(? by the company that does the 6 in 1's) and have been curious about trying a non-crushed base for a sauce. My regular sauce passed the test of time, so I can certainly tinker about and find another one not quite so bright for other types of pie. That tomato juice thing is interesting. ATK has a sauce with their meatballs that uses it and turns out nice.

When I made that paste based sauce a couple days ago, I totally laughed when I took a whiff and thought wow, this smells just like a pizzeria. The tomato juice is just based on the cooking ethos I constantly see repeated by regarded chefs of using more flavorful liquids than water when cooking. Not sure if anyone in NYC does it, but it's cheap enough that it could easily be done. I'm curious to try carrot juice too, or at least a portion of it. All I know is Norma won the Caputo Cup with Saporito, so I should be able to get excellent results at home with paste.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 04, 2017, 07:25:10 PM
It's been a while since I ate a pizza other than my own. Had a few slices at an NY style place my buddy works at. Pretty standard All Trumps/7-11/Grande slice pies. But it was really quite different from my pies. Of course, these slices were reheated, which I almost never do, so textually I might be jumping to conclusions, but I noticed a lot of little things. The Grande on the reheated slices really did have great cheese stretch, stretch I find pretty hard to get at home without using some cheap part skim cheese that goes straight to browning. The slices were super thin, but sturdy and supportive at the same time, like using a heavier dough weight but slightly underfermenting it so it's not puffy. Not delicate. The rim was not soft, more crispy in a dry way, kind of like an Italian breadstick (not sure if that's normal for NY or not, or if it would even matter if most people toss the bones anyways?) The hydration might be even lower than I think, unless that is an effect of the low ceiling deck oven.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 04, 2017, 09:30:19 PM
Awesome. I've learned a ton by sampling different pizzerias. I've had rims like that, which is why I generally don't eat them. (Chicken or egg?)

How did the cheese amount compare to yours? Any thoughts on the sauce, sweetness or otherwise?




Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 05, 2017, 01:01:24 AM
Awesome. I've learned a ton by sampling different pizzerias. I've had rims like that, which is why I generally don't eat them. (Chicken or egg?)

How did the cheese amount compare to yours? Any thoughts on the sauce, sweetness or otherwise?

There was enough cheese on the pie to give it that nice stretch that slows you down from eating the whole slice in 5 seconds. I would guess 14-16 oz for an 18" slice pie. The sauce definitely flavored the pie. I could hear Frank Giaquinto. The flavors were pretty balanced really, not too heavy on the oregano. Not as sweet of a sauce as I tend to prefer, but I thought it worked. I'm pretty sure the sauce is cooked, I'll have to ask my friend. Might have to get some pf their All Trumps and Grande too.

I didn't have my phone with me to take any pictures, but here's a picture I found online from the place. The rim was smaller, and my slices weren't as well-done as the pie in this pic though.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 05, 2017, 01:57:46 PM
There's been a lot of recent discussions about deck ovens, IR heat, and slice temperature. I just wanted to add one more observation. Slices there are reheated in a Bakers Pride countertop oven behind the slice cabinet, and not the full size Bakers Pride decks the pies are cooked in. Even so, I have to add, that the slices came out so hot, just during the quick reheat; that the slices may have honestly been hotter than some of my home pies after a full 10 minute bake.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 06, 2017, 12:23:11 AM
7 hour dough with a bit of old dough, Cento paste based sauce
50:50 Galbani WM/PS mozzarella
Cooked on stone @ 500F for 8 minutes
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on August 06, 2017, 09:35:00 AM
Looks yummy and juicy, Ryan. Did you try to incorporate anything you felt from the recent Pizzeria visit?
Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 06, 2017, 11:17:46 AM
Looks yummy and juicy, Ryan. Did you try to incorporate anything you felt from the recent Pizzeria visit?
Roy

Thanks Roy - mostly in my bake setup, trying to fiddle with more deck oven "false ceiling" simulation. Had my stone on the bottom rack, with my inverted pan a few racks above to help reflect for heat back onto the pie. I actually got a real nice cheese stretch on the second pie, possibly from the part skim mix? BTW, I used 1 oz of grape juice as a sweetener as part of my liquid to re-hydrate the paste into a sauce. Seemed to work pretty well!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 06, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Looking good! Cheese amount definitely plays into the stretch, but doneness of the melt will too. One of my pies yesterday was underdone (accidental stone temp of 440), but had major stretch.

Is that basil under the cheese?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 06, 2017, 04:08:23 PM
Looking good! Cheese amount definitely plays into the stretch, but doneness of the melt will too. One of my pies yesterday was underdone (accidental stone temp of 440), but had major stretch.

Is that basil under the cheese?

Yeah, fresh basil on the second one. I think it adds more flavor pre bake than adding post bake, and I've found as long as it's under the cheese it will infuse its sweet flavor without turning black and crunchy.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 06, 2017, 08:38:00 PM
My guests devoured last nights pies, and I woke up really craving a slice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 07, 2017, 02:49:59 PM
That pie was really good, I used the TF of a grandma but let it proof in the pan for about an hour like a Sicilian. Nice contrast in cheese flavor, creamy, stretchy mozz under the sauce enhanced by the browned mozz on top. Yeah I used way too much sauce, but the slices were still pretty supportive, even with all those big juicy chunks of tomato. Those were Cento. I was going to use Sclafani crushed, but the can I opened was so bad tasting I knew I had to use something else. I'll likely be going back to Cento since I can no longer get Di Napoli locally, and Muir Glen has gone back to almost $5 a can after being $2.29 the last few months.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 17, 2017, 10:25:09 PM
Thin & crispy
10 minutes @ 500F on stone

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on August 17, 2017, 11:09:48 PM
Love that brown bubbly cheese!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 18, 2017, 06:58:07 AM
Looking good! Would look nice in a party cut  :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 18, 2017, 04:56:13 PM
Love that brown bubbly cheese!!!

 :drool:

I even used one of those cheapo bags of pre-shredded "Italian blend" for poops and giggles, cut with regular low moisture mozz to pump up the flavor. I think that contributed majorly to some of that brownage! First one got devoured so fast I was just barely able to catch a rare glimpse of this incredible specimen in the wild!

Looking good! Would look nice in a party cut  :chef:



You know I had to!  ;)
I just need to figure out a way to make a big 16" version of this. Might try a cutter pan, but I love the stone bake on these.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 23, 2017, 06:52:39 PM
55% hydrated slice pie!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on August 24, 2017, 08:43:31 AM
Great looking slice Ryan -  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on August 24, 2017, 08:52:43 AM
Great looking slice Ryan -  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

 ^^^ Nice job Ryan! 
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 24, 2017, 11:52:30 AM
Thanks guys,  :chef: I got a pretty solid bake for a screen baked pie this go around. Rim color could be a touch darker IMO but I'm not sure what's up with that, as the cheese was done so I didn't want to hit the broiler. Maybe I will try oiling the rims pre bake. Really nice chew with this same day no oil dough, got a few comments on that chew and crust texture. I want to pick up another 25 lb bag of high gluten when I'm out that way, but If I'm going to use bread flour to make a NY pizza, no oil really does seem to be the way to do it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on August 24, 2017, 12:32:33 PM
Interesting thought Ryan, I have some KABF and Gold Medal Bread Flour, I have a NY style dough with oil for tonight but I think in a few days I may try one without oil.  I can't find any really high gluten flour out in my neck of the woods except to order online and it's too expensive!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 24, 2017, 12:44:13 PM
At the least it's worth a shot  :D

I just used flour, water, salt, and yeast. Been going that way for a while chasing that chew, the tug. .088TF on this one BTW.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 24, 2017, 05:25:58 PM
Awesome pie and great natural pics. Different camera or just the lighting?

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 24, 2017, 06:37:50 PM
Awesome pie and great natural pics. Different camera or just the lighting?

Thanks Matt  :) same phone camera, I've been using flash lately since my bakes tend to be later, but I decided to post the natural pics. The dough handled really well, opened just like that video Harry posted of Gaby's.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 28, 2017, 09:31:21 PM
Another 55% hydration slice pie! Really happy with how this one came out.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on August 28, 2017, 09:37:59 PM
Love it Ryan!...
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 28, 2017, 09:46:55 PM
Love it Ryan!...

 ^^^ Me too  :chef:  it's great to see 2 in a row!

Same day dough again?

I'm happy to see you using paper plates now, but would love to see the slices set against the cheapest white plates you can find  ;D

Remind me, are you placing the screen on a stone at all? Very nice looking undercrusts you're achieving.





Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 28, 2017, 11:04:21 PM
Love it Ryan!...

Cheers captain!  :chef:

^^^ Me too  :chef:  it's great to see 2 in a row!

Same day dough again?

I'm happy to see you using paper plates now, but would love to see the slices set against the cheapest white plates you can find  ;D

Remind me, are you placing the screen on a stone at all? Very nice looking undercrusts you're achieving.

Thanks Matt! :chef: Yeah, this one went for about 5 hours. I'll have to get some of those plates, funny I thinking the same thing. These ones are kind of deep and don't show off the slice profile as well.

These last few NY pies haven't touched stone at all. I would prefer that they would, but my current stone only fits a 12" pizza. I do all my thin and crispy pies on stone though. For me, the trick to the undercrust without a stone has been turning 3 times, in smaller degrees. In my oven it just seems to help.

Been lazy lately using cheap pre-shredded cheeses though, which I feel shows in the melt. I'll have to get some Boars Head or Saputo next bake. Just trying to get a great sauce dialed in. I used "San Marzano Strips in Puree" today, but I'm going to try some more paste experiments next. My last test was tinny and offputting though. Some of these retail pastes are really bad. Had pretty good luck with the Cento tube, but those ones are pretty expensive - as much as a #10 can!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 31, 2017, 08:33:34 PM
Had some family over so I made a pizza and a few garlic knots.

50% hydration hand mixed dough, which fermented for about 5 hours @ RT. Flour, water, salt, and yeast. Basically going for bagel dough cause I want that NY chew.

Cheese is Saputo Gold mozzarella.

Sauce is Amore double concentrated tomato paste + garlic, olive oil, and Romano cheese.

For the knots, I took after some pics I had seen of NY pizzerias and went for the cinnamon roll technique, versus tying actually knots. This was really fast to do and seemed to keep the knots more tender than some of my hand tied attempts. Used salt, olive oil, crushed red pepper flakes, fresh crushed garlic, granulated garlic, and Romano cheese inside.

Pie baked for 10 minutes @ 500-550.

Not sure what's up with this hole on my slice, might have accidentally grabbed it with a mitt or something!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on August 31, 2017, 08:39:12 PM
Nice Ryan! This your usual cheese amount? Looks like a beautiful amount of cheese  :chef:

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on August 31, 2017, 09:46:41 PM
Nice Ryan! This your usual cheese amount? Looks like a beautiful amount of cheese  :chef:

 ;D I cut a block of Saputo off and meant to weigh it, but ended up just going by eye. I'd guess 12-14 ounces.





Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Kreetak on September 05, 2017, 04:03:53 PM
wow man, I'm in love with your crust right now!  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 13, 2017, 09:34:52 PM
 

Hope you all are doing well, a few pies from tonight.

Thin and crispy with grilled artichoke, banana peppers, and olives.

Grandma pie with low moisture mozz, fresh mozz, basil, and hot soppressata.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on September 13, 2017, 11:01:18 PM
Love hot sopprasetta or any kind for that matter! :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 14, 2017, 12:25:52 AM
Love hot sopprasetta or any kind for that matter! :drool:

 :chef: I'm continually surprised by the things I find lately at Grocery Outlet!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 14, 2017, 12:34:06 AM
Does anybody else prefer whole peeled tomatoes over crushed? I find myself continually going back to WP packed with basil, even though half the can is juice.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 14, 2017, 06:36:15 AM
Does anybody else prefer whole peeled tomatoes over crushed? I find myself continually going back to WP packed with basil, even though half the can is juice.

Depends, are you cooking or using paste? For me, using just whole peeled (uncooked, no paste) is a bit too wet, so I use 50% crushed/50% WP (no cooking no paste). I like this much better than using 100% of one or the other.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 14, 2017, 12:39:58 PM
What I should have said is when tasting directly from the can, WP tends to be more flavorful to me. I like that mild acidity that pops the tomato sweetness forward; I don't feel like I find that as often in crushed tomatoes.

Here's my mix from yesterday. I have been messing with paste a bit, too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: vtsteve on September 14, 2017, 12:56:28 PM
What I should have said is when tasting directly from the can, WP tends to be more flavorful to me. I like that mild acidity that pops the tomato sweetness forward; I don't feel like I find that as often in crushed tomatoes.

Here's my mix from yesterday. I have been messing with paste a bit, too.

The Stanislaus site says their crushed are "pear" tomatoes and the whole peeled are plum - don't know how universal that is, though.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Kreetak on September 14, 2017, 03:46:06 PM
nice crust! :chef: Looks very tasty
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 14, 2017, 06:34:19 PM
nice crust! :chef: Looks very tasty

Cheers Kreetak!  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: bjc113 on September 14, 2017, 06:38:55 PM
I love a grandma pie!  nice work
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 14, 2017, 08:32:49 PM
I don't know if I can taste a raw sauce and know whether I'll like it baked on a pie. May just be me though. But I am with you, I think using (atleast some) whole peeled adds something that I like.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on September 15, 2017, 02:08:44 PM
I love a grandma pie!  nice work

Thanks BJC  :chef:

I don't know if I can taste a raw sauce and know whether I'll like it baked on a pie. May just be me though. But I am with you, I think using (atleast some) whole peeled adds something that I like.



I agree that predicting how a raw sauce changes during a bake is tricky. How are you prepping your current crushed:whole peeled sauce? Are you still draining the juice from the can and from individual tomatoes like you were doing?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on September 15, 2017, 08:59:34 PM
..
How are you prepping your current crushed:whole peeled sauce? Are you still draining the juice from the can and from individual tomatoes like you were doing?

Great question. I'm impressed (and flattered) that you remember my old process  :) This has some similarities and differences.

Half is 7/11, the other half is WP. The WP has 2 even parts: juice from the can and the tomato. The tomato is broken in half by hand to let some of the water out, then blended to a pulp (pulpy not chunky). The pulp/juice mixture is then added to the 7/11.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 04, 2017, 11:38:55 AM
Ryan, those NY bakes (especially) are looking mighty fine. I'm inspired to try a hand mix/knead. Been a long time.

Roy
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 05, 2017, 01:57:47 PM
Ryan, those NY bakes (especially) are looking mighty fine. I'm inspired to try a hand mix/knead. Been a long time.

Roy

Many thanks Roy, nice to see you back and posting, been meaning to catch up in your thread when I have time to write out a longer reply! I might have to make a pizza tonight, too!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 05, 2017, 05:03:37 PM
My guests devoured last nights pies, and I woke up really craving a slice.
That pie was really good, I used the TF of a grandma but let it proof in the pan for about an hour like a Sicilian. Nice contrast in cheese flavor, creamy, stretchy mozz under the sauce enhanced by the browned mozz on top. Yeah I used way too much sauce, but the slices were still pretty supportive, even with all those big juicy chunks of tomato. Those were Cento. I was going to use Sclafani crushed, but the can I opened was so bad tasting I knew I had to use something else. I'll likely be going back to Cento since I can no longer get Di Napoli locally, and Muir Glen has gone back to almost $5 a can after being $2.29 the last few months.
What size pan was used there for the Grandma pie?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 05, 2017, 05:10:18 PM
What size pan was used there for the Grandma pie?

It's an 18" x 12" pan.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 14, 2017, 01:29:06 AM
It's an 18" x 12" pan.
Just a standard aluminum sheet pan w/ 1" depth? Did you bother to season it or is it still shiny? I think I'm gonna score a couple jelly roll pans to do this, which are slightly smaller than the half sheet.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 14, 2017, 01:33:36 AM
Just a standard aluminum sheet pan w/ 1" depth? Did you bother to season it or is it still shiny? I think I'm gonna score a couple jelly roll pans to do this, which are slightly smaller than the half sheet.

That one is still shiny and seems to work fine. I have other pans that would not brown the bottom at all without seasoning.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 17, 2017, 10:45:59 PM
Been craving a pizza! Made this one up tonight with grilled artichokes, banana peppers, black olives, and diced tomatoes. 10 hour RT rise, 14", .1 TF
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on October 17, 2017, 10:47:16 PM
Damn Ryan!!   :drool:  That looks perfect, thumbs up on deluxe, that is desperately in need in my house!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on October 18, 2017, 11:07:00 AM
Been craving a pizza! Made this one up tonight with grilled artichokes, banana peppers, black olives, and diced tomatoes. 10 hour RT rise, 14", .1 TF

Those look incredible Ryan!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on October 18, 2017, 12:05:48 PM
👍👍
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jvp123 on October 18, 2017, 12:08:55 PM
Those look incredible Ryan!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 18, 2017, 08:44:48 PM
Thanks everyone!   :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 18, 2017, 09:07:55 PM
It's just ok.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 18, 2017, 09:08:20 PM
Sike.
Bomb as usual.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 19, 2017, 09:16:08 PM
Sike.
Bomb as usual.

I took another stab at those pan pizzas today!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on October 19, 2017, 09:17:52 PM
I took another stab at those pan pizzas today!

Looking good!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 19, 2017, 09:23:46 PM
Is that a white sauce on that one?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 19, 2017, 09:34:42 PM
Looking good!

 :chef: been inspired by Kreetak's pan pizzas, your Greek pizza's, and Hermit's American style pizza's!

Is that a white sauce on that one?

I just used garlic butter!  :- :-[


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on October 19, 2017, 10:11:27 PM
I took another stab at those pan pizzas today!

That first one is just the right browning for me, beautiful!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on October 19, 2017, 11:33:14 PM
Damn loving both these pizzas, I bet that garlic butter pie was a nice slice  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 20, 2017, 09:01:19 AM
That first one is just the right browning for me, beautiful!!

Cheers Jon  :D You know I had to rock the party cut on these!

Damn loving both these pizzas, I bet that garlic butter pie was a nice slice  :drool:

I almost thought about blending the oil packed grilled artichokes plus a little garlic + parmesan into a sauce!? Thought that could be an interesting white pie!

You can do some cool things, texturally, starting in a pan, that you just can't do when peeling a pie into the oven. Kinda digging this sauce + cheese to the edge which I was really enjoying in Kreetak's thread. I'm finishing these pies on stone for a few minutes.

Now I'm thinking about nibbing a few squares for breakfast... got the FP going too early again  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on October 20, 2017, 09:33:42 AM
I almost thought about blending the oil packed grilled artichokes plus a little garlic + parmesan into a sauce!? Thought that could be an interesting white pie!

You can do some cool things, texturally, starting in a pan, that you just can't do when peeling a pie into the oven. Kinda digging this sauce + cheese to the edge which I was really enjoying in Kreetak's thread. I'm finishing these pies on stone for a few minutes.

Now I'm thinking about nibbing a few squares for breakfast... got the FP going too early again  :-D

I bet that would be good Ryan!  I dont eat artichokes much but love em with butter and siracha/mayo aioli.  Surprisingly the pan pizza dough even a real high hydration seems to hold up well to the toppings.  I am always a little worried when I start to pile stuff onto that dough pillow after it's proofed it'll all sink down and make a mess!  Never happens!  =)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 20, 2017, 02:12:35 PM


I bet that would be good Ryan!  I dont eat artichokes much but love em with butter and siracha/mayo aioli.  Surprisingly the pan pizza dough even a real high hydration seems to hold up well to the toppings.  I am always a little worried when I start to pile stuff onto that dough pillow after it's proofed it'll all sink down and make a mess!  Never happens!  =)

Yeah I used to get worried about that when topping the PH clone that had proofed up in the pan - not over proofed, but nice and puffy, and as I'd put just normal amounts of sauce, cheese and pepperoni on I could see at the edges that the pillow deflated a tad and I was worried it was gonna bake up flat, but it always puffed up like it was supposed to when baked.


I just used garlic butter!  :- :-[

So what were the proportions anyway - did you use garlic powder or fresh? You mean garlic butter like they do with that take and bake garlic french bread loaf at the store, where it's slathered on pretty thick? I'd imagine you'd have to go pretty thin on a pizza though due to lack of bread to soak it up or it'd be pretty greasy I'd think.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 20, 2017, 02:54:46 PM

Yeah I used to get worried about that when topping the PH clone that had proofed up in the pan - not over proofed, but nice and puffy, and as I'd put just normal amounts of sauce, cheese and pepperoni on I could see at the edges that the pillow deflated a tad and I was worried it was gonna bake up flat, but it always puffed up like it was supposed to when baked.

So what were the proportions anyway - did you use garlic powder or fresh? You mean garlic butter like they do with that take and bake garlic french bread loaf at the store, where it's slathered on pretty thick? I'd imagine you'd have to go pretty thin on a pizza though due to lack of bread to soak it up or it'd be pretty greasy I'd think.

I used fresh garlic and just did a quick microwave infusion with 1-2 Tbsp of butter; not thick at all like that store bought garlic bread. I just brushed on a thin layer with a silicone brush, probably could have used a little bit more.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 21, 2017, 12:53:06 PM
Ryan, your latest couple rounds of pies look nice as always.

The white pie with garlic butter looks/sounds interesting.

That pre-bake shot a few days ago  - is that cheese done with one of those potato graters many have talked about? 

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: quietdesperation on October 21, 2017, 02:02:05 PM
great stuff! I've never had a hankering to make pan pizza but looking at those last two pies, I'm thinking I have to give it a try.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 21, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
Ryan, your latest couple rounds of pies look nice as always.

The white pie with garlic butter looks/sounds interesting.

That pre-bake shot a few days ago  - is that cheese done with one of those potato graters many have talked about?

Thanks Roy!

Just my standard box grater on that cheese, coarse shred. That was from the 2 lb Frigo LMPS block from Costco. 6 oz mozzarella, 1 oz Tillamook Monterrey Jack.

great stuff! I've never had a hankering to make pan pizza but looking at those last two pies, I'm thinking I have to give it a try.


Cheers QD! Kinda fun to switch things up every once in a while. My tasters have been wanting heavier topped pizzas lately, so the pan makes it easy to pull that off.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on October 21, 2017, 09:52:59 PM
I took another stab at those pan pizzas today!

Ordered a pizza hut pan pizza this week, if done right, it's real good.  Yours looks fantastic.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 21, 2017, 10:05:24 PM
Wait...what? ??? ?  PH????
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on October 21, 2017, 10:11:57 PM
PH pans used to be the cat's ass. I remember a time, a long long long long time ago we used to say we're either in the mood for PH or pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: HarryHaller73 on October 21, 2017, 10:17:45 PM
PH pans used to be the cat's ass. I remember a time, a long long long long time ago we used to say we're either in the mood for PH or pizza.

I've also observed massive variation from one franchise to another.  Back then they were pretty consistent wherever sit down PH you visited.  So much for streamlining a workflow with conveyors.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 22, 2017, 01:39:32 AM
Thanks Harry!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on October 22, 2017, 05:20:33 AM
I've also observed massive variation from one franchise to another.  Back then they were pretty consistent wherever sit down PH you visited.  So much for streamlining a workflow with conveyors.
The PH pans at just this one location here differs almost every time, where sometimes there's an oily rim (my favorite part) and other times it all goes to the edge  and there's no rim at all and really the only reason I ever ate that thing was for the oily rim.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on October 22, 2017, 01:06:04 PM
The PH pans at just this one location here differs almost every time, where sometimes there's an oily rim (my favorite part) and other times it all goes to the edge  and there's no rim at all and really the only reason I ever ate that thing was for the oily rim.

The PH in my town must be one of the worst.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 05, 2017, 10:39:59 AM
Made this pie a few nights ago, bookmarking it here as I get closer to the right sauce. This one I came up with last week worked pretty well. It's raining now so I'm definitely considering throwing a dough together!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 05, 2017, 05:42:00 PM
Thin and crispies from today
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 05, 2017, 05:57:03 PM
Nice! And I really like the melt on the half cheese pie

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on November 05, 2017, 06:24:14 PM
Damn yeah that half and half looks great, amazing how both sides really do bake like two separate pizzas.   Loving that sausage and peppers though, I bet that cured some cravings.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 06, 2017, 09:46:48 AM
Nice! And I really like the melt on the half cheese pie

Thanks! I used Lucerne Whole Milk mozzarella with about 20% Asiago.

Damn yeah that half and half looks great, amazing how both sides really do bake like two separate pizzas.   Loving that sausage and peppers though, I bet that cured some cravings.

Thin is in!!  ;D yeah these really hit the spot, love these midwest crunchers!


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 11, 2017, 09:21:38 PM
Family in town, made some thin and crispy pies!

Started a RT poolish yesterday which I forgot overnight lol, added to the dough this morning and it smelled like a pizzeria.

Cheese blend is 16 oz whole milk mozzarella with 5 oz Asiago. 8 oz per pie. Same sauce I used a few posts up, might reduce the black pepper a bit but like where it's going.

These were some real tasty pies, had an authentic pizzeria taste, not sure what was special other than just a good combination between the dough, sauce, and cheese.



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on November 11, 2017, 09:39:05 PM
You have the thin and crispy dialed in.   :drool:  Love the color!   I've noticed you can get a great flavor profile on the thin and crispy really pushing fermentation times.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 11, 2017, 09:44:49 PM
That's nice!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 11, 2017, 10:40:41 PM
Dang, Ryan. You are on a huge roll.

I've been trying to envision the moz/asiago blend. I can't imagine. I think I have some left in the freezer to try. just mix the "powdered" with the shredded?

You've got these suckers nailed.  8) 8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on November 12, 2017, 01:05:04 AM
Nice pies!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2017, 10:25:21 AM
Family in town, made some thin and crispy pies!
Ryan,

You have gotten this style down pat. How did your family like the pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2017, 03:15:34 PM
Thanks everyone!

I've been trying to envision the moz/asiago blend. I can't imagine. I think I have some left in the freezer to try. just mix the "powdered" with the shredded?

Hi Roy,

I'm shredding the Asiago on my box grater, the same sized shred I'm using for the whole milk mozzarella.


Ryan,

You have gotten this style down pat. How did your family like the pizzas?

Peter

Peter, all that remained was a trail of crumbs! Washed it down with tangerine granita and root beer floats  ;D

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2017, 05:53:53 PM
Made this Asiago loaf and turned it into a big sandwich!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on November 15, 2017, 10:52:14 PM
That looks so freaking good!  What did you have on it?    :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 16, 2017, 11:00:59 AM
That looks so freaking good!  What did you have on it?    :drool:

I rolled the bread up with garlic, basil, torn tomato pieces, and mozzarella/asiago blend I used for pizzas earlier in the week.
The sandwich had chicken, salami, and pepperoni, provolone, more fresh basil, mozzarella, asiago, tomatoes, and pepperoncini. Probably forgetting a few things! Epic 18" sandwich!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 16, 2017, 11:45:39 AM
I rolled the bread up with garlic, basil, torn tomato pieces, and mozzarella/asiago blend I used for pizzas earlier in the week.
The sandwich had chicken, salami, and pepperoni, provolone, more fresh basil, mozzarella, asiago, tomatoes, and pepperoncini. Probably forgetting a few things! Epic 18" sandwich!

Might be the best looking sandwich I have ever seen - spectacular work, Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 16, 2017, 04:50:33 PM
Might be the best looking sandwich I have ever seen - spectacular work, Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

Many thanks Norm!   :chef:
The fresh asiago bread really pushed it over the top!


Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on November 16, 2017, 07:20:52 PM
I've looked at this sandwich a few times now. I can't even conceptualize the eating experience. Totally out of my league with that one, Ryan. You win.  8)
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 16, 2017, 09:53:41 PM
Might be the best looking sandwich I have ever seen - spectacular work, Ryan  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on November 16, 2017, 11:31:43 PM
How did you roll that stuff into the bread? You mean you rolled that stuff up into the dough and baked it like that? Did you share that sandwich with anybody? Is there any left? Let me give you my address.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 16, 2017, 11:51:48 PM
Thanks Roy, Matt!  :)

How did you roll that stuff into the bread? You mean you rolled that stuff up into the dough and baked it like that? Did you share that sandwich with anybody? Is there any left? Let me give you my address.

After the first proof I stretched the dough into a rectangle and added the tomato/basil/garlic/cheese, then rolled it up just as if I was making cinnamon rolls. I just left it as one big loaf instead of cutting into rolls. I did share the sandwich, but unfortunately there's not any left!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on November 17, 2017, 08:09:00 AM
FYI, I have added this sandwich to my Amazon wish list for xmas  :-D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on November 17, 2017, 12:11:00 PM
FYI, I have added this sandwich to my Amazon wish list for xmas  :-D

 ^^^ Me too!!!!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 17, 2017, 12:50:44 PM
 :-D

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 27, 2017, 11:46:54 PM
Little 12" pie
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on November 28, 2017, 10:01:26 AM
Little 12" pie

Looks like it packed a big amount of flavor. Hard cheese on top?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on November 28, 2017, 02:25:38 PM
Looks like it packed a big amount of flavor. Hard cheese on top?

Pumping up the flavors! Domestic romano, I think it was Stella. I was using Bel Gio for a bit which worked well. Did a nice herb-y sauce, whole peeled tomatoes pulsed in the blender, then I added lots of fresh basil and dried oregano, sliced fresh garlic, and black pepper.

The standout was a calzone I didn't get any pictures of. It might have been better than any of the pizzas I've made all year. Maybe I just needed something different, but it really hit the spot. More calzones are definitely on my to-dolist  :D
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 01, 2017, 10:38:28 PM
14" American style and a huge calzone! First CF dough I've done in a while, the dough had a ton of flavor, it really stood out after doing all these RT fermentations. The crust had a great texture too, sometimes I like using a lower protein flour with less/no enrichment versus using something with more gluten and more oil to tenderize that gluten.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 01, 2017, 10:49:36 PM
Nice duo there!  Both look amazing!  :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on December 02, 2017, 05:12:42 AM
So the CF dough was more flavorful than your few hour RT doughs? How long did you CF for? I found that I like the CF dough better than 10 hour RT when it has CF'ed for several days, like 6 or more days. The browning on mine is far superior on the long CF dough than it is on a 10 hour RT. I just rarely plan ahead for that. I tend to get diminishing returns with my RT doughs beyond 6 hours or so.

That's a nice American pie. I've been baking mine on a screen, but I think I may get one of those disks for more contact and better browning. I bet the crust tastes better cooked on the disk than a screen,
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 02, 2017, 07:34:15 AM
Nice duo there!  Both look amazing!  :drool:

 ^^^ is there oil on the rim of the American? Looks pretty.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: rparker on December 02, 2017, 09:42:37 AM
Nice, Ryan!   Don't you just love the occasional greaser? All that pizza juice soaking the crust just right.   :drool: 

I'm with you on the CF flavor.   
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 02, 2017, 02:06:22 PM
Thanks pizza pals  :chef:

So the CF dough was more flavorful than your few hour RT doughs? How long did you CF for? I found that I like the CF dough better than 10 hour RT when it has CF'ed for several days, like 6 or more days. The browning on mine is far superior on the long CF dough than it is on a 10 hour RT. I just rarely plan ahead for that. I tend to get diminishing returns with my RT doughs beyond 6 hours or so.

That's a nice American pie. I've been baking mine on a screen, but I think I may get one of those disks for more contact and better browning. I bet the crust tastes better cooked on the disk than a screen,

I did a 2 day CF on this one. Nothing real long but it still had a lot of flavor. I haven't been great at planning ahead for pizza either this last year, I'd like to try freezing dough balls so I could make short notice pies. H

It seems like I get diminishing returns with RT doughs too, I've thought the same. The CF flavor is just different, I don't think you can get the same flavors with a RT dough. Great tasting pies either way, but different dough flavors. Not sure about the disk vs screen regarding flavor, but I like the lip on the disk, it's more pronounced and holds everything together nice and tight. I use it for some of my thin & crispy pies too! The disk definitely has more mass and seems to actually cook the pie more than the screen. Gets some nice textures with the perforated dimples this particular disk leaves. More conduction going on I suppose with the disk over the screen, I baked this one low & slow, 15+ minutes at 450F. Disk directly on the rack.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 02, 2017, 02:12:38 PM
^^^ is there oil on the rim of the American? Looks pretty.

I opened the dough with oil, and also brushed a little on the rim post bake for the gloss! Plus it glues the reggiano to the crust  :pizza:

Nice, Ryan!   Don't you just love the occasional greaser? All that pizza juice soaking the crust just right.   :drool: 

I'm with you on the CF flavor.   

 ;D this pie was so good! American style pizza gets a bad rep for the low quality ingredients used by the big chains, but at home it's just a whole 'nother ballgame!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2017, 02:29:01 PM
Ryan,

You did a very nice job manipulating screens and disks with your oven to produce some very nice pies. Having spent a lot of time studying American style pizzas, can you tell us what formulation you used?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2017, 12:41:46 PM
Ryan,

You did a very nice job manipulating screens and disks with your oven to produce some very nice pies. Having spent a lot of time studying American style pizzas, can you tell us what formulation you used?

Peter

Thanks Peter!
I used this formulation

100% AP flour
60% water
5% sugar
2.2% salt
.25% IDY (variable)

TF= .125
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on December 03, 2017, 12:48:35 PM
Thanks Peter!
I used this formulation

100% AP flour
60% water
2.2% salt
.25% IDY (variable)
Thanks, Ryan,

Did you note the thickness factor?

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 03, 2017, 12:55:19 PM
Thanks, Ryan,

Did you note the thickness factor?

Peter

Peter,

I just edited my post and added the TF and an ingredient I left out (the sugar!)
Instead of oil I used a lower protein flour, the pizza had great chew.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on December 03, 2017, 01:51:36 PM
Peter,

I just edited my post and added the TF and an ingredient I left out (the sugar!)
Instead of oil I used a lower protein flour, the pizza had great chew.
Ryan,

LOL. That is more like an American style. Add some oil, and you get even closer. ;D

FYI, when I look at dough formulations, especially those that look to have a lot of merit, I look to see if there is enough information to allow someone else to copy the formulation or to use one of the dough calculating tools to change the formulation to suit the person. So, in addition to baker's percents, things like pizza size, dough ball weight and thickness factor can be a big help and keep people from guessing.

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on December 03, 2017, 05:41:59 PM
Yeah 5% sugar is a lot and it's cool if/when I'm in the mood for it. You wanna try a real sweet dough try Randy's American dough that has over 5% sugar and then almost 5% honey, too. It works great for the way he uses it with a really hot sausage and I think pinnaple to get the sweet/hot thing going on. I was planning on using it for a cinnamon roll pizza.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 04, 2017, 02:55:08 AM
I don't find 5% sugar in the dough that sweet, not like a burger bun, or dinner roll.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 12, 2017, 11:39:50 PM
Another one of my American style doughs, 2 day CF. Baked at 450F for 15 minutes, in pan, on stone, on the bottom rack. Turning the pizza 180 degrees halfway into the bake.

Sauce is 28 oz can of crushed tomato (can code 5TPCG OL) + 6 oz can of tomato paste, + 2 TBSP EVOO, MAE with typical herbs and spices.

8 oz of Saputo Gold WMLM mozzarella shredded with the large holes on my box grater

Dietz & Watson pepperoni + banana peppers on this one. Dusting of Parmesan over the sauce, dusting of Romano over the cheese.

Thanks for looking, pizza peeps!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: CaptBob on December 13, 2017, 12:26:03 AM
YUM!!! :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: quietdesperation on December 13, 2017, 12:58:12 AM
YUM!!! :chef:

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Satyen on December 13, 2017, 02:22:44 AM
That looks killer!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on December 13, 2017, 02:26:17 AM
Yeah I'm definitely gonna try low and slow on the next American I do. That looks rad. I don't think I've ever had a banana pepper.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 13, 2017, 07:17:38 AM
Another one of my American style doughs, 2 day CF. Baked at 450F for 15 minutes, in pan, on stone, on the bottom rack. Turning the pizza 180 degrees halfway into the bake.

Sauce is 28 oz can of crushed tomato (can code 5TPCG OL) + 6 oz can of tomato paste, + 2 TBSP EVOO, MAE with typical herbs and spices.

8 oz of Saputo Gold WMLM mozzarella shredded with the large holes on my box grater

Dietz & Watson pepperoni + banana peppers on this one. Dusting of Parmesan over the sauce, dusting of Romano over the cheese.

Thanks for looking, pizza peeps!

Wow. I didn't even need to see the pics (though glad I did). That's a serious pizza!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on December 13, 2017, 08:47:15 AM
Another one of my American style doughs, 2 day CF. Baked at 450F for 15 minutes, in pan, on stone, on the bottom rack. Turning the pizza 180 degrees halfway into the bake.

Sauce is 28 oz can of crushed tomato (can code 5TPCG OL) + 6 oz can of tomato paste, + 2 TBSP EVOO, MAE with typical herbs and spices.

8 oz of Saputo Gold WMLM mozzarella shredded with the large holes on my box grater

Dietz & Watson pepperoni + banana peppers on this one. Dusting of Parmesan over the sauce, dusting of Romano over the cheese.

Thanks for looking, pizza peeps!


Looks great  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 13, 2017, 09:01:22 AM
Damn, save me a slice!  Great work Ryan, perfect color.  Did you cook the sauce prior to topping?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 14, 2017, 10:42:57 PM
Much respect to you all!! So much knowledge on this forum!

Yeah I'm definitely gonna try low and slow on the next American I do. That looks rad. I don't think I've ever had a banana pepper.

No heat at all on these pickled ones but I've used fresh banana peppers from the Mexican grocer that had a nice zing! The acidity on pickled peppers really makes the pepperoni and other ingredients pop. For that reason I tend to prefer pickled peppers on pizza over fresh, though the flavors are pretty different between the two. I bet a combination would be good; I'll have to try that, one part fresh jalapeno, one part pickled jalapeno.

And these bake times are working amazing for this style. The pizza seems to be staying hot longer too, like it's getting a more thorough bake with this longer duration, despite the lower bake temperature. My dough has no oil but it still comes out with this awesome balance of chew and tenderness. I think the TF affects that to some degree also. I was disappointed I only had one slice left to eat for breakfast the next morning straight out of the fridge. I love cold pizza  ;D

Damn, save me a slice!  Great work Ryan, perfect color.  Did you cook the sauce prior to topping?

No cooking on this one! Just mixed the crushed tomato with the paste, plus my MAE seasonings and used a whisk to incorporate.
The sauce was quite thick so I used a rubber spatula to apply it to the pie! I was inspired to try a really thick sauce after reading the Bocce Club thread on here by OGwoodfire (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42106.0) and seeing some really sweet looking pies.

If you jump to :37 seconds in you can see how THICK their sauce is, getting lots of tomato product on the pie for rich flavor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPG2Til_N14 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPG2Til_N14)



Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 19, 2017, 10:41:59 PM
Another 14" American, same specs as last bake. Only difference was a same day fermentation this time. Definitely took on color quicker than the CF version.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 20, 2017, 12:24:27 AM
Nailed it!  I love the color!   :chef:  I'm surprised it took on color quicker, was yeast % the only difference in the formula?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 20, 2017, 12:38:32 AM
Nailed it!  I love the color!   :chef:  I'm surprised it took on color quicker, was yeast % the only difference in the formula?

Everything was the same, even the yeast percentage (.25%)

From my understanding the dough (5% sugar) had more available sugars for browning since the fermentation period was reduced.

Fun fact... I've never ran this math before, but I just calculated about 9,000 mg of sodium in this 14" pizza.........

That's crazy! The dough alone has 7000 mg (7g = 2.2%) Even half that would still be high.
And I pretty much always eat half a pie, no matter the size  :-X

8 oz mozzarella = 1370 mg sodium
1 oz pepperoni = 550 mg sodium

I always knew pizza was a salt bomb but I chalked that up to the cheese and toppings.  I had no idea the dough was such a contributor but getting into these American style TF's the salt really adds up.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on December 20, 2017, 01:56:58 AM
Nice man, was the crust still tender? I don't recall if you were using oil in these or not.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 20, 2017, 03:27:07 AM
Nice man, was the crust still tender? I don't recall if you were using oil in these or not.

This one wasn't as tender or flavorful as the CF version. No oil in these. If I made this RT version more frequently I would probably add oil, but I think this style works better with CF. I'm pretty happy with a 2 day CF lately. This one went about 5 hours at RT.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on December 20, 2017, 06:16:44 AM
Another 14" American, same specs as last bake. Only difference was a same day fermentation this time. Definitely took on color quicker than the CF version.

Picture-book example of a fantastic American pie, Ryan. You really have that style mastered perfectly  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 23, 2017, 01:21:24 PM
Thanks Norm!

Csnack, I realize the reason that pie wasn't as tender is because I used bread flour instead of the all purpose flour I had been using. Back to AP + no oil and all is well in the tenderness:chew ratio!

Yesterday being Friday, yet with no oregano in the air, I realized I was going to have to prepare an impromptu pie. The perfect time to try a reduced salt dough. I reduced from 2.2% to 1.25% in my American style dough and was satisfied! In fact, I thought the flavor was very good for only 4 hours of fermentation!

I think the sauce flavor was the kicker yesterday. Went back and read Novembers #2 sauce post about using water to extract the resins and alkaloids from the herbs and spices instead of doing a fat soluble infusion. My finished sauce had a ton of flavor, I've gravitated toward something quite thick for these American style pies to get lots of rich tomato flavor into the pie.

My phone was dead during the bake but here's a lonely leftover slice for breakfast!

Blend of Saputo whole milk mozz + Queso Oaxaca

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 28, 2017, 10:47:48 PM
Had to throw my American style dough on the 17" screen and see how it would turn out. Really loaded this one up!

Pepperoni, Canadian bacon, Italian sausage, mushrooms, black olives, onions, green pepper, and hot banana peppers.

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on December 28, 2017, 11:03:21 PM
Love the color on the crust!  I like the loaded up toppings.  Did you cut back on the cheese or just go all in?  I've been wanting to do a canadian bacon, thats one of the things I loved about PJ's works pizza.  Nice work Ryan  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 28, 2017, 11:27:24 PM
Love the color on the crust!  I like the loaded up toppings.  Did you cut back on the cheese or just go all in?  I've been wanting to do a canadian bacon, thats one of the things I loved about PJ's works pizza.  Nice work Ryan  :chef:

Thanks Hermit! Yeah I did cut back on cheese with all these toppings, 8 oz on this one.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 29, 2017, 07:12:00 AM
Good looking pie
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2017, 11:03:03 AM
Good looking pie

 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2017, 06:50:51 PM
Thanks!

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on December 30, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
That slice looks like it means business!

I was able to try banana peppers that I put on two slices worth of a pepperoni and they were pretty good if I'm in the mood for something picked on a pizza. They were just Kroger brand as that was all I could find and were mild. They tasted just like the  pepperoncinis I used to get on my Subway sandwich.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on December 31, 2017, 01:09:45 PM
That slice looks like it means business!

I was able to try banana peppers that I put on two slices worth of a pepperoni and they were pretty good if I'm in the mood for something picked on a pizza. They were just Kroger brand as that was all I could find and were mild. They tasted just like the  pepperoncinis I used to get on my Subway sandwich.

I just picked up some hot banana peppers recently that had a lot more kick than the regular ones, more akin to a pickled jalapeno in heat.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on January 06, 2018, 07:45:39 AM
Was curious how much granulated garlic you have typically used in your sauce? I also recall you using around a Tbsp of sugar to a 28oz can at some point, you still doing that?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: jsaras on January 06, 2018, 08:56:42 AM
Was curious how much granulated garlic you have typically used in your sauce? I also recall you using around a Tbsp of sugar to a 28oz can at some point, you still doing that?

Keep in mind that garlic powders vary in strength.  Most containers will tell you what volume corresponds to a clove of garlic.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on January 06, 2018, 09:10:36 AM
Word.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2018, 10:09:11 AM
What Jonas says in Reply 1073 is correct, as I discovered the hard way in the course of this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40159.msg400531#msg400531

Peter
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on January 06, 2018, 11:56:28 AM
Keep in mind that garlic powders vary in strength.  Most containers will tell you what volume corresponds to a clove of garlic.

Precisely why I ALWAYS use granulated garlic when using it in the dry form. I learned long ago when first starting to make sausage with my uncle, that granulated onion, garlic is the MOST consistent product to get. Garlic or onion powder and salts, as you said vary wildly, and when making a large batch of 200-300 pounds of sausage can throw a HUGE wrench in the mix!!!!! GRANULATED ONLY IN DRY FORM
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 07, 2018, 11:44:41 PM
Was curious how much granulated garlic you have typically used in your sauce? I also recall you using around a Tbsp of sugar to a 28oz can at some point, you still doing that?

When I use it, it's usually 1/8 tsp - 1/4 tsp per 28 oz can. That's about how much sugar I add to my American style sauce. Sometimes more in a Midwest style thin & crispy sauce.

My last American style sauce was something like

28 oz crushed tomato
1 tube of Cento tomato paste
1 tbsp sugar
3/4 tsp oregano
1/4 tsp basil
1/4 tsp black pepper
1/8 tsp granulated garlic
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 09, 2018, 06:15:59 PM
14" Artichoke pie!

8 oz cheese (2:1 Mozzarella: Queso Quesadilla)

Bumped up the paste amount in the sauce compared to the last few which I think helped with coverage.






Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 09, 2018, 06:52:11 PM
Ryan, looks great.  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

BTW - how did you like the Queso Quesadilla? I think I tried it at 100% years ago and it was pretty darn good. I don't remember the brand, which I'm sure matters just like with Mozz.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on January 09, 2018, 09:04:22 PM
Ryan, looks great.  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:


 ^^^
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 10, 2018, 03:01:45 PM
Thank you Norm and Matt!

Ryan, looks great.  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

BTW - how did you like the Queso Quesadilla? I think I tried it at 100% years ago and it was pretty darn good. I don't remember the brand, which I'm sure matters just like with Mozz.

Not bad! I was kind of expecting it to be closer to Oaxaca, but it tasted basically like Monterrey Jack to me. Probably won't become a pizza staple, but I thought it worked really well mixed with Oaxaca in a chili relleno casserole I made a few weeks ago. Would be interested in trying some that wasn't pre-shredded as I think it made the rest of my cheese brown early.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 10, 2018, 03:08:03 PM
Now that you mention it -- maybe what I tried was Oaxaca  :-[
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 15, 2018, 08:58:08 PM
Chicago Thins this week!
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on January 15, 2018, 09:02:13 PM
Chicago Thins this week!

Looks awesome, I really want to try one of these. Did you use Garvey's sauce?

Also, tf of 0.124?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 15, 2018, 09:45:16 PM
Looks awesome, I really want to try one of these. Did you use Garvey's sauce?

Also, tf of 0.124?

Thanks!

And thanks for pointing that out! I guess I used the TF box to even out the numbers to a 500g flour batch. Just easier to measure with my scale. These were 12" pizzas, 260g dough balls, around a .08 TF. I got 3 dough balls out of this batch but I only baked two as I ended up using 8 oz mozzarella per pie instead of 5 like I was thinking of doing.

I used AP flour for these. Might bump the salt up to 1.5% next time but they were really good.  :chef:

I have not tried Garvey's sauce recipe yet. I used a 28 oz can of tomato puree with some dried oregano, grated garlic, salt, pepper, and sugar.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 15, 2018, 10:07:00 PM
Nice thins!  I can hear the crunch from here!  Great melt, love all that caramelized cheese  :drool:  How are you doing on your sauce?  Do you feel like the sauce recipe is getting where you want it for this style?  I've been using a little more sugar in my sauce and it's getting better reviews.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 16, 2018, 06:31:57 AM
Chicago Thins this week!

Very nice - looks like you got plenty of CRUNCH - BTW, have you tried the new dough calculator - it is pretty sweet and works cross platform, PCs, Tablets, Phones you name it - a place for notes and you can save the info in BB code so just a cut and paste to drop it into your post. Comes in like this:

Open (https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator?a=thicknessFactor&tf=0.085&dw=650&dwt=grams&b=1&shp=round&s=18&w=12&l=16&h=60&yt=ady&y=0.5&st=regular&slt=2&br=1&p=none&pa=0&pwa=0&pst=0&dh=1&ph=0&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=0&pwt=0&plt=0&c_g=1&c_o=1&c_p=3&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=0&c_d=1&o14=1.5&o25=1)
GramsOunces
Flour (100%)375.35013.240
Water (60%)225.2107.944
Active Dry Yeast (0.5%)1.8770.066
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (2%)7.5070.265
Diastatic Malt Powder (1.5%)5.6300.199
Olive Oil (1%)3.7540.132
Total (165%, TF=0.08585)619.32821.846
Single Ball619.32821.846

https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on January 16, 2018, 08:27:22 AM
Very nice - looks like you got plenty of CRUNCH - BTW, have you tried the new dough calculator - it is pretty sweet and works cross platform, PCs, Tablets, Phones you name it - a place for notes and you can save the info in BB code so just a cut and paste to drop it into your post. Comes in like this:

Open (https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator?a=thicknessFactor&tf=0.085&dw=650&dwt=grams&b=1&shp=round&s=18&w=12&l=16&h=60&yt=ady&y=0.5&st=regular&slt=2&br=1&p=none&pa=0&pwa=0&pst=0&dh=1&ph=0&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=0&pwt=0&plt=0&c_g=1&c_o=1&c_p=3&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=0&c_d=1&o14=1.5&o25=1)
GramsOunces
Flour (100%)375.35013.240
Water (60%)225.2107.944
Active Dry Yeast (0.5%)1.8770.066
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (2%)7.5070.265
Diastatic Malt Powder (1.5%)5.6300.199
Olive Oil (1%)3.7540.132
Total (165%, TF=0.08585)619.32821.846
Single Ball619.32821.846

https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator
Dude, when did that come out? This one works great on my phone and even has an "add ingredient" tab to let you add dry milk et al, which I don't believe was on the flash version. The only thing I ignore on it is the idy as it always rounds it up, making e.g. what would be 0.005 oz to 0.010 oz - no good for an obsessive dialer.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 16, 2018, 08:40:40 AM
A week or so ago - BTW, you can adjust how many digits you see after the decimal place - also, the person that wrote the code has been adding new features really fast so if there is something you would like to see just ask for it in that thread...
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on January 16, 2018, 06:21:39 PM
A week or so ago - BTW, you can adjust how many digits you see after the decimal place - also, the person that wrote the code has been adding new features really fast so if there is something you would like to see just ask for it in that thread...
Hmm what thread would that be?
Not finding it.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: norcoscia on January 16, 2018, 06:30:22 PM
Sorry, I should have listed the link to the thread along with the link to the calculator - my bad :-[

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50773.msg510705#msg510705
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: csnack on January 16, 2018, 10:03:37 PM
Thanks man no worries. I looked there and for some reason didn't see it. Probably because it's the first thread
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 17, 2018, 01:34:52 AM
Nice thins!  I can hear the crunch from here!  Great melt, love all that caramelized cheese  :drool:  How are you doing on your sauce?  Do you feel like the sauce recipe is getting where you want it for this style?  I've been using a little more sugar in my sauce and it's getting better reviews.

Thanks Hermit!  :)

I've never really used puree before in my pizza sauce, but it was really sweet out of the can and the only ingredient on the can was "tomato pulp." I thought puree was reconstituted tomato paste but now I'm not sure. Probably gonna mess with that some more though, had the right flavor and gave me really nice coverage, no white spots. Been experimenting with more sugar after reading the Aurelio's thread in the Chicago section. I added 1 tbsp to the puree, but it was pretty sweet out of the can. I thought it was a really solid pie. I ran out of oregano  :-D I might try doubling down on that. I *think* I'm ultimately going for a "sweet & herb-y" sauce, at least that's the flavors of the pies of my youth. Seems like herb heavy sauces need a nice hit of sugar to balance their bitterness.

This was the most cheese I've ever tried on this size pie, I think most pizzerias are on the higher end than this forum. Even at 8 oz on a 12" it still didn't seem crazy cheesy. I'm still looking for more cheese stretch but maybe I just baked these too long? 15 min @ 450.

Very nice - looks like you got plenty of CRUNCH - BTW, have you tried the new dough calculator - it is pretty sweet and works cross platform, PCs, Tablets, Phones you name it - a place for notes and you can save the info in BB code so just a cut and paste to drop it into your post. Comes in like this:

Open (https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator?a=thicknessFactor&tf=0.085&dw=650&dwt=grams&b=1&shp=round&s=18&w=12&l=16&h=60&yt=ady&y=0.5&st=regular&slt=2&br=1&p=none&pa=0&pwa=0&pst=0&dh=1&ph=0&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=0&pwt=0&plt=0&c_g=1&c_o=1&c_p=3&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=0&c_d=1&o14=1.5&o25=1)
GramsOunces
Flour (100%)375.35013.240
Water (60%)225.2107.944
Active Dry Yeast (0.5%)1.8770.066
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (2%)7.5070.265
Diastatic Malt Powder (1.5%)5.6300.199
Olive Oil (1%)3.7540.132
Total (165%, TF=0.08585)619.32821.846
Single Ball619.32821.846

https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator

Thanks Norm! And thanks for the tip, that looks great I'll definitely check that new calculator out!
I was really good at keeping notes for a while until my computer had broke and have been really off on that. Need to get back into it, REALLY need to start taking sauce notes  ::)





Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 18, 2018, 04:50:20 PM
This pie still haunts my dreams. After all these pizzas, and I've basically ignored it. It's about time I go back to work on cloning it.

I just don't know how to get this bake. That was in my old oven which could do things to pizzas this one just isn't capable of. I actually baked this on screen but my current oven doesn't get near as hot. If I put the screen on a low rack it always comes out uneven on the bottom due to the electric heating element in the oven. I might try inverting a big sheet pan and using that as the floor for my screen.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 18, 2018, 05:36:13 PM
I've wondered about doing stone bakes using just the broiler and finding the sweet spot to place the stone so you get an even bake.  Seems that could have some nice potential with restricted ovens since the broiler gets so hot.  Have you baked one of those pies on the top 1/3 of the oven?
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 18, 2018, 06:32:17 PM
I've wondered about doing stone bakes using just the broiler and finding the sweet spot to place the stone so you get an even bake.  Seems that could have some nice potential with restricted ovens since the broiler gets so hot.  Have you baked one of those pies on the top 1/3 of the oven?

Yeah, I have tried them up top but it does nothing to the bottom of the pie without a stone under it. What I find is the sauce suffers the most, it's like it never really cooks so the pie doesn't develop flavors. I used to cook on the bottom rack and use the broiler to add top heat which worked well for my 4-6 minute NY bakes I used to do.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Hermit on January 18, 2018, 06:48:04 PM
I wonder if something like this would fit into an oven.  It wouldn't make as big of pies but seems to have some deck effect on a small scale.

http://www.bakerstonebox.com/

Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: Jackitup on January 18, 2018, 08:03:52 PM
Look in your oven manual to see if there is a back menu in your control panel to incr or decr the actual temp from the set. Many do, mine does and made a huge difference, about 30 degrees added! Might find the info online too.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: invertedisdead on January 18, 2018, 09:05:12 PM
Little 12" stone baked pie with a paste based sauce and fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, dried oregano, olive oil, Romano, and reggiano.
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on January 18, 2018, 09:12:31 PM
This pie still haunts my dreams. After all these pizzas, and I've basically ignored it. It's about time I go back to work on cloning it.


Awesome news!


Little 12" stone baked pie with a paste based sauce and fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, dried oregano, olive oil, Romano, and reggiano.

Looks good  :chef:
Title: Re: Inverted's Pie Barn
Post by: hammettjr on January 18, 2018, 09:27:37 PM
Just searched this thread for "killer" to go back to the details. TF of 0.07 and 17", super thin, but with a thick sauce. I'm guessing it was light on the cheese.

You said it was a longer bake for you at the time, 7-8 mins, but I'm intrigued by the lack of rim color. I really think it'