Pizza Making Forum

Reference, Questions and Help => Ask the Dough Doctor => Topic started by: quietdesperation on January 13, 2017, 09:22:30 AM

Title: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: quietdesperation on January 13, 2017, 09:22:30 AM
Hi,
 
  I've been using non-organic kabf, I noticed our local, big box store (BJs) has organic ka flour at about twice the price of the non-organic. I'm sure the organic is a good product, does it make better pizza?

tia!
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: The Dough Doctor on January 13, 2017, 11:08:20 AM
QD;
In one word, no. In some cases it may not produce as good of a pizza as non-organic flour. Organic flour is not malted nor treated in any way at the mill so it has to be handled differently when making pizza. In a general sense, one might say that organic flour needs to be handled in a similar manner to "OO" flour. And for what it's worth, it is not enriched either so there is a significant difference from non-organic flour from a nutritional stand point. Organic is a great consumer buzz word, push the "organic" button and their lights come on.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: quietdesperation on January 13, 2017, 11:32:35 AM
thanks tom!
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: parallei on January 13, 2017, 12:25:25 PM
King Arthur Organic BF is malted

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443555917555.pdf (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443555917555.pdf)

It works fine for pizza, though i'm not sure it is worth the extra cost.  I use the non-organic version and love it. 
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2017, 12:38:33 PM
To expand upon what Tom and Paul reported, there are flours that are organic but can contain malt or enrichments such as iron and vitamins. Here are some examples in the U.S.:

Arrowhead Mills (Enriched Unbleached White Flour): http://www.arrowheadmills.com/cpt_products/organic-all-purpose-flour/ (organic and enriched but not malted)

Central Milling (Organic Artisan Bakers Craft Plus): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-artisan-bakers-craft-plus/ (organic and malted but not enriched)

Central Milling (Organic Beehive): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-beehive/ (organic and malted but not enriched))

Central Milling (Organic Type 70 Malted): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-70-malted/ (organic and malted but not enriched)

Central Milling (Organic Type 85 Malted): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-85-malted/ (organic and malted but not enriched)

Central Milling (Organic Unbleached Enriched): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-unbleached-enriched/ (organic and enriched, but not malted)

Central Milling (Organic “The One”): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-the-one/ (organic and malted but not enriched) (Note: this flour contains salt)

General Mills/Sperry: http://www.generalmills.com/en/Brands/Baking/gold-medal/brand-product-list (click on Organic Flours) (organic and enriched but not malted)

King Arthur (All Purpose): https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1531943132818.pdf (organic and malted but not enriched)

King Arthur (Bread Flour): http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443555917555.pdf (organic and malted but not enriched)

King Arthur (High-Gluten Flour): http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1443555768810.pdf (organic and malted but not enriched)

Natural Directions (Unbleached Flour): http://naturaldirections.com/nd-products/organic-unbleached-flour/ (organic and malted but not enriched)

In the above examples where the organic flours are malted, the malt is a diastatic cereal malt in the form of barley flour and the barley flour is also organic.

All of the above flours are available at either supermarkets or by mail order.

One of the problems that arises with untreated organic flours is that the finished crusts can be lacking in color. One of our members, AnnieK, a pizza operator, had that problem but solved it by adding a low diastatic malt. My recollection is that she used a 20L product from Briess.

For those who are interested, I have added below the sources that I am aware of that sell organic flours that, as best I can tell, are untreated (no malt and no enrichment). For those sources that do not say whether their flours are untreated, I noted the uncertainty parenthetically. However, I suspect that most such flours are untreated, because of the emphasis at the related websites of the organic nature of their flours. Some of the flours are available at retail or by mail order but other ones of the flours are available only at the foodservice level. The source of the following information, as well as the above information, is the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0.

Bob's Red Mill (Unbleached White All Purpose Flour): http://www.bobsredmill.com/shop/flours-and-meals/organic-all-purpose-unbleached-white-flour.html

Central Milling (Organic Artisan Bakers Craft): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-artisan-bakers-craft/

Central Milling (Organic High Mountain): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-high-mountain/

Central Milling (Organic Type 110): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-110/

Central Milling (Organic Type 85): https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-85/

Cook Natural Products (Organic All Spring Flour): http://cooknaturally.com/support/specs/orgallspring.pdf

Cook Natural Products (Organic All Winter Flour): http://cooknaturally.com/support/specs/allwinter.pdf

Cook Natural Products (Organic White Patent Flour (Snowbird)): http://cooknaturally.com/support/specs/orgwhitefloursnow.pdf

General Mills/Sperry (Organic Hygluten Flour): http://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/sperry/organic-hygluten-untreated-50lb

General Mills/Sperry (Organic Bread Flour): http://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/sperry/organic-bread-untreated-50lb

Giusto's (Ultimate Performer Unbleached Flour): http://giustos.com/professional/flours/unbleached-white-flours/giustos-organic-ultimate-performer-unbleached-flour.html

Great River Milling (Bread Flours): http://www.greatrivermilling.com/organic-bread-flours/ (uncertain)

Great River Milling (Commercial Product Sizes): http://www.greatrivermilling.com/commercial-products/ (uncertain)

Hodgson Mill (All Purpose White Flour): http://www.hodgsonmillstore.com/en/organic-all-natural-flour/organic-all-purpose-white-flour-71518-05108-001_group

Lehi Roller Mills (Certified Organic Strong Bread Flour): https://store.lehirollermills.com/Flour/900-2010.html

MsGeary Organics (All-Purpose Flour): http://www.daisyflour.com/all-purpose-flour/ (uncertain)

Montana Flour & Grain (Organic Hard White Wheat Flour): http://www.montanaflour.com/100-organic-hard-white-wheat-flour/ (uncertain)

Montana Flour & Grain (Unbleached White Flour): http://www.montanaflour.com/100-organic-unbleached-white-flour/

Wheat Montana (Natural White Flour): http://www.wheatmontana.com/retail/flourpancake-mixes/natural-white/natural-white-flour-1

All of the organic malts cited above are also unbleached and unbromated and contain no other common additives such as ascorbic acid (Vitamin C).

Peter
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: parallei on January 13, 2017, 12:45:35 PM
The only non-malted, organic flour I can find readily available in local supermarkets is Gold Medal Organic All Purpose.  I use it in for NP's in the wood fired oven.
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: The Dough Doctor on January 13, 2017, 06:31:59 PM
For a number of years now there has been a lot of discussion on treatment of organic flour. Some will accept malted organic flour only if the barley from which the malt is derived is also organically grown, and then there is the enrichment issue where consumers don't want the organic flour to contain synthesized vitamins. Only 100% pure whole-wheat flour milled from an organic wheat is what people were looking for but the germ oil would turn rancid quickly creating marketing and storage issues. Anymore it seems that the use of "organic" flour is a pathway to being able to advertise "made with organic flour". I've used it for making a lot of different food items, including pizza, but unless there are other motives I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on it A few years ago it was so popular in the wholesale baking industry that there was a shortage of it, now that demand seems to have waned which is one reason why we see it so widely available from so many different suppliers.....they're trying to rebuild those markets.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 13, 2017, 06:52:48 PM
I haven't tried the organic KA products. I really like Sperry Hy-gluten (which isn't very high gluten) for NP. It's a GM product, however retail GM organic flour is nothing special, IMO.
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: parallei on January 13, 2017, 07:10:01 PM
I haven't tried the organic KA products. I really like Sperry Hy-gluten (which isn't very high gluten) for NP. It's a GM product, however retail GM organic flour is nothing special, IMO.

The GM, non-malted organic AP, seems to work just fine at NP temps.  IMO :-D  Perhaps your local Hebs (sp?) that you like, is better.  I don't know, but maybe you do.
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: quietdesperation on January 19, 2017, 12:44:20 PM
Thanks all for the great information! It seems to me it's better to work with non-malted flour and add ldm rather than guess at the amount and type of malt added to flour. do I have that right?

In any case, I don't see organic flour in my near future.

best,
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: The Dough Doctor on January 19, 2017, 01:11:15 PM
I think you have it in reverse. Malted flour will most likely give you more consistent dough performance, then you can add non-diastatic (inactive) malt to the dough for its unique flavor and crust color just like you would add any other sugar.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: quietdesperation on January 19, 2017, 04:22:10 PM
Ha! thanks tom!
Title: Re: organic vs. non-organic flour?
Post by: bradtri on March 28, 2017, 06:43:22 PM
Ran across Arrowhead Mills flour (unmalted) at Wally-world today.   Saw it referenced in this thread and was wondering if anybody had tried it recently for NP?