Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Chicago Style => Topic started by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 10:21:47 AM

Title: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 10:21:47 AM
I mentioned in the Malnati thread that I recently had an excellent deep dish pizza at a local pizzeria that used semolina flour to some extent in their crust, which was very tasty and flavorful along with a nice light crunch.  So I went about making a small 9" deep dish pizza this past weekend to see how it would turn out using some semolina in the flour mixture.  Peter had indicated that Tom Lehmann recommended a general maximum of 25% semolina of the total flour blend, but that some others had gone as high as 50%. I just settled on 15% in this initial experiment.
 
Using King Arthur AP and Bob's Red Mill semolina, the formulation that I used, with a 1.5% bowl residue, was as follows:
 
Flour ***  (100%):  161.71 g  |  5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
Water (47%):  89.42 g  |  3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.6%):  1.14 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (.5%):  0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):  9.51 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):  34.24 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.61 tsp | 2.54 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Semolina (15%):  28.54 g | 1.01 oz | 0.06 lbs | 8.2 tsp | 2.73 tbsp
Total (187.1%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
    ***Using the deep-dish dough calculation tool, the flour (in this case KAAP) came out to
             "Flour (100%):  190.25 g  |  6.71 oz | 0.42 lbs," but per Peter's suggestion, you need to deduct
             the amount of semolina to ensure a proper balance of flour in total.
 
I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.
 
I took the cooled dough ball out the next day about 1 and 1/2 hours before baking to let it warm up.  I've found at other times that cold dough did not bake very well, or at least not to my liking, so I think it's important to let the dough get to room temperature before baking.  I put the dough ball into my previously oiled 9" deep dish Chicago Metallic pan with 2" high straight-sides.  Patting it out flat by hand, I tried especially to crimp or pinch the edges of the crust very hard to give the crust a nice real thin edge, as opposed to a thicker or fatter rim that sometimes occurs, especially when using a lot of yeast.  The Malnati's, Due's and Pizano's pizzas that I used to enjoy always had that crimped thin, crisp rim around the pizza unlike the thicker rim that existed at Gino's East, Uno's franchises, and other places.
 
I then put in a layer of sliced Mozzarella cheese, then added some provolone cheese pieces, then a sausage "patty" that I made from a couple of links of specialty Italian sausage.  See Pics below.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 10:25:45 AM
Next I added some drained 6 in 1 sauce to which I added Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, a good dash of honey (key ingredient) and a few pieces of small diced plum tomatoes.  I usually don't like a chunky pizza sauce at all, but strangely have come to love it in Chicago Style pizzas.  I then put on a healthy amount of grated parmesan cheese from my specialty Italian deli.  On top of that, I also added several pieces of sausage that I had left over from the links.  I baked the pizza on my pizza stone on the bottom oven rack, which I previously heated up for an hour at 475 degrees F.  I reduced the heat to around 450, turned the pizza 180 degrees after 15 minutes, put the oven's convection (fan) feature on for the last 10 minutes, and then took the pizza out after cooking for around 22 minutes.  I was going to cook it for 25 minutes, but the little pieces of sausage on top were starting to burn a bit.  See Pics below.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 10:28:25 AM
This pizza turned out absolutely great.  The use of semolina added greatly to the flavor and taste of crust that I've never been able to achieve in homemade pizzas.  The crust had a tender, flaky character to it that I really liked.  I won't hesitate to try this recipe again, maybe seeing what more or less semolina would do, although this proportion is going to be hard to beat as it is. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 10:30:46 AM
The last piece didn't go to waste.  My wife and I devoured it shortly after shooting the picture.  My previous experiments using corn meal as part of the flour mixture were very unsatisfactory, but the semolina ingredient is very different.  I highly recommend this Chicago Style deep dish pizza using semolina as part of the crust's flour mixture. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2008, 10:49:42 AM
BTB,

You did great, both as to the pizza and your explanation.

I have one small question. You stated that "it's important to let the dough get to room temperature before baking". Do you mean to say that the dough should be left at room temperature for a period of time before baking? For example, if your room temperature was 85 degrees F, would you let the dough warm up to 85 degrees F?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 11:28:34 AM
Guess I really never thought of what room temperature was.  Down here in Florida, it's around 82 degrees outside right now, but with our air conditioning, it's around 73 to 75 degrees inside.  I would think the dough in the high 60s or in the 70s is best.  But a "cold" dough (30s to 50s) just didn't seem to bake up right for me.  I would be hesitant at 85 degrees, but I'm not too sure why.  One thing I would do different next time, I would bake the pizza I described above a little longer to ensure the center crisped up a little more.  The browned pieces of sausage on top threw my timing off.  I would stay at 25 to 27 minutes baking time the next time around.  But most of the pizza had a nice crisp/crunch texture to it that I really liked.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on March 31, 2008, 12:09:11 PM
BTB,

Tom Lehmann frequently corrects people when they say to let their doughs warm up to room temperature. Some professional pizza kitchen areas can get to over 85-95 degrees F or even higher in some parts of the country and at certain times of year, or just because of excessive heat from their ovens. If a dough is allowed to warm up to that temperature, it might blow (overfement) or become overly gassy. Technically, the desired temperature before using a dough is around 55 degrees F. Below that, one runs the risk of getting large bubbles in the finished crust. In my experience, 55 degrees F is too low. I usually shoot for a dough temperature in the mid-60s. I only mention the point because some readers will take instructions to let a dough warm up to room temperature literally. Fortunately, most home kitchens tend to be above 60 degrees F most of the time, so there is usually little need to worry about the dough temperature being too low.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: zalicious on March 31, 2008, 07:57:01 PM
BTB, I'm so glad you posted this. Chicago Deep Dish is what I want to try next. Your pizza looks great. I love semolina in my pizza crusts, & I noticed an improvement ( to my tastes ) in taste & texture after I started using it. Was curious what you didn't like about the cornmeal in your previous attempt, since that is a standard ingredient in Chicago Deep Dish?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2008, 09:30:01 PM
Give it a try, Zalicious, I think you'll really like the Chicago deep dish pizza in all it's varieties.  Since I've been working on homemade pizzas for a little over a year now, this version with the semolina seems to be about the best, altho there are good points to all the various recipes mentioned in the various postings on this site.  (The recipes in the postings themselves I think are better than those in the recipe section up front IMO.)  But given this was my first use of semolina as a pizza crust ingredient, I am sold on it being included in all my pizzas.  I'm anxious to try it with some of my thin crust pizzas that I've been previously very happy with.

I think if you went over all the many, many postings here that you would find the conclusion of most of the Chicago deep dish pizzamaking enthusiasts to be that corn meal in fact is not a standard ingredient in Chicago deep dish.  Much had been written and commented about that most of the great deep dish pizzerias in Chicago in fact do not use it as an ingredient in their pizza crusts, contrary to popular belief as well as a lot of "copy-cat" recipes and even some of the early formulations that were included here in the recipe section up front on this site.  I don't hear of many pizzamakers using it much in their crusts anymore, but there are many who do and some like whatever affect it gives to the crust.  For me it gave a not so pleasant gritty, sandy taste to the crust.  But that is probably just a personal thing.  In any event, the best way is to try it and determine if one likes it or not.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: zalicious on March 31, 2008, 10:31:37 PM
Thanks for the info :). I 'll definitely check out the other threads for recipe ideas.

In regards to the use of semolina, you said " But given this was my first use of semolina as a pizza crust ingredient, I am sold on it being included in all my pizzas.  I'm anxious to try it with some of my thin crust pizzas that I've been previously very happy with." On the rare occasions that i DON'T put it in my crust, I use it 50/50 with flour for my bench flour. Yum :).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 14, 2008, 12:48:59 PM
I further experimented with a Chicago deep dish pizza using semolina as part of the flour base.  In making a small 9" pie, the only changes from the recipe indicated above was as follows:  20% semolina, as opposed to 15%, added near a half teaspoon of sugar (1.82 g) and sifted the flour this time (but not the semolina).  Baked for about 27 to 28 minutes, which is a little longer than the last time (above). 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 14, 2008, 12:51:21 PM
With the addition of a little more semolina to the formulation, we thought it was even better.  We absolutely love the character, texture, crispness and flavor that the semolina gives to our Malnati deep dish.  We're looking forward to experimenting with semolina as part of the flour base in our thin crust pizzas, too.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Marshenko on June 02, 2008, 12:44:52 PM
This recipe is terrific.  Modified it a bit to fit a 16" (  :o :o ) 2" deep pan.  Crust was soooooooo flavorful, with wonderful texture.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jaspr180 on June 12, 2008, 01:42:29 PM
I just made my first "Chicago style" pizza.   The pizza was excellent but I have a question.  I was under the impression that it would be more like a biscuit crust and mine turned out more like the texture of a graham cracker.    Is this how it was supposed to be?   I used a cast iron skillet 45min at 450F.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on June 12, 2008, 04:47:35 PM
jaspr180, your question bewilders me in a way.  I dislike immensely a graham cracker crust pie (non-pizza type), so I would hate a pizza pie with a graham cracker-like dough.  I've made this recipe several times and note nothing like a graham cracker crust, so I don't know how to respond.  It is much more biscuit like and is tender, light and crispy.  Since this was your first Chicago style, did you refrain from overworking or overkneading the dough?  Mixing it for 30 to 90 seconds is all that is required.  Also, I've never made a Chicago Style with a cast iron skillet, so I don't know how that would affect the final product.  Seems others have done well with that, tho.  45 minutes is normally too long, but it depends, I guess, on the size of the pizza.  As you can see from the photos, the pizza dough looks nothing like a graham cracker crust.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jaspr180 on June 13, 2008, 02:28:17 AM
jaspr180, your question bewilders me in a way.  I dislike immensely a graham cracker crust pie (non-pizza type), so I would hate a pizza pie with a graham cracker-like dough.  I've made this recipe several times and note nothing like a graham cracker crust, so I don't know how to respond.  It is much more biscuit like and is tender, light and crispy.  Since this was your first Chicago style, did you refrain from overworking or overkneading the dough?  Mixing it for 30 to 90 seconds is all that is required.  Also, I've never made a Chicago Style with a cast iron skillet, so I don't know how that would affect the final product.  Seems others have done well with that, tho.  45 minutes is normally too long, but it depends, I guess, on the size of the pizza.  As you can see from the photos, the pizza dough looks nothing like a graham cracker crust.


Yea, the crust was super crispy.  Maybe I should have pulled it from the oven way before I did.  I just trusted the 45m mark i have been reading around the forums for cast iron.   Checked my oven with a IR gun and my stone was at a perfect 450F too.  I only mixed the ingredients enough to bring them together,  45s tops.   I was happy to have at least a more crispy crust rather than bread like but still not what I had expected.    The only thing I can think of was I did do a conversion for yeast since I used IDY and the measurement was off a small margin.   Will have to remember to take pictures next time.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:33:04 PM
When I had some guests over last month, I further experimented with the Malnati style pizza with semolina making both a 12" pie with 20% semolina and a 9" pie with 25% semolina.  I'll briefly describe the pie with 20% first. For the 12" pizza, I used King Arthur AP and Bob's Red Mill semolina with a 1.5% bowl residue, and the formulation that I used was as follows:
 
Flour *** (100%):  239.82 g  |  8.46 oz | 0.53 lbs
Water (47%):  140.89 g  |  4.97 oz | 0.31 lbs
ADY (.75%):  2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (.5%):  1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):  14.99 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.33 tsp | 1.11 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):  53.96 g | 1.9 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.99 tsp | 4 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Semolina (20%):  59.95 g | 2.11 oz | 0.13 lbs | 5.74 tbsp | 0.36 cups
Total (192.25%): 576.3 g | 20.33 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.126875
     
         ***Using the deep-dish dough calculation tool, the AP flour came out to
             "Flour (100%):  299.77 g  | 10.57 oz | 0.66 lbs," but as indicated above, you need to deduct
             the amount of semolina to ensure a proper balance of flour in total.
 
As with the formulation at the beginning of this thread, I mixed the semolina and salt with the sifted KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I again found that I needed a teaspoon or two more of the flour, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours. 
 
Taking it out of the refrigerator the next day about 1 and 1/2 hours before baking, I patted out the dough ball into my previously oiled 12" Pizzaware deep dish pan with 2" high straight-sides.  I crimped or pinched the edges of the crust very hard to give the crust a nice real thin edge, as opposed to a thicker or fatter rim.   I then put in a layer of sliced Mozzarella cheese, then added some provolone cheese pieces, then a sausage "patty" that I made from a couple of links of specialty Italian sausage.  I had some extra fresh mozzarella that I added on top of the sausage patty just to give the pizza an extra boost of cheese.  See Pics below.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:35:16 PM
I then added some drained 6 in 1 sauce to which I added Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, a good dash of honey (key ingredient) and a few pieces of small diced plum tomatoes (I forget the brand), then added a good amount of grated parmesan, and then baked the pizza on the bottom oven rack at 450 degrees.  I did this in a oven other than my usual one and I was not familiar with cooking with the heating element in sight in the oven as my GE Profile electric range at home has no apparent heating element in sight on the bottom of the oven.  After 15 minutes I turned the pizza 180 degrees and continues to bake for about 10 to 12 minutes more. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:37:54 PM
My guests raved about the pizza saying that it really hit the spot and that they thought it was much better than Lou Malnati's.  It was very good as the crust continued to have a tender, flaky character to it that my guests really loved.  My only regret was that it was ever so slightly overcooked, but still very tasty and flavorful.  I think the next time I use an oven like this, I will put the pizza on the next highest rack.  This and the 9" pie that I'll describe below were quickly consumed leaving only crumbs on the cutting board.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:40:56 PM
At the same time I made a 9" pie using a little more semolina flour (25%) to see what affect that would have.
Similar to the above, I used King Arthur AP and Bob's Red Mill semolina with a 1.5% bowl residue, and the formulation was as follows:
 
Flour *** (100%):  133.19 g  |  4.69 oz | 0.29 lbs
Water (47%):  83.46 g  |  2.94 oz | 0.18 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  10.65 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  32.85 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  1.78 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Semolina (25%):  44.39 g | 1.57 oz | 0.1 lbs | 4.25 tbsp | 0.27 cups
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Total (200.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
              ***Again factoring out the amount of semolina flour from the AP flour.
 
The process was similar to that indicated above, except I withheld any salt and put in a smidgeon of sugar and cream of tartar to see what affect that might have. The ingredients were the same as indicated for the 12" pie mentioned above.

Note: While the above dough formulation will produce very good results when using the ingredient quantities specified, for a corrected and updated version of the dough formulation see Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg87497.html#msg87497.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:42:44 PM
I added just a small amount of fresh mozzarella on the 9" pizza also, but put it on top of the sauce instead of under the sauce as I had done with the 12" pizza.  I might add that while I really, really love the taste of fresh mozzarella, I've learned to use it sparingly, if at all, as it can make the pizza much too watery if used in too large a quantity.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 28, 2008, 06:44:01 PM
My guests again raved as much about the 9" Malnati with semolina as they did with the 12" with some having expressed a slight preference for the version made with 25% semolina.  But both were absolutely delicious and I am really sold on the use of semolina with Chicago deep dish style pizza.  These two pieces quickly disappeared shortly after taking the shot.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on September 28, 2008, 07:11:49 PM
BTB,

As usual, a superb job in all respects.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on November 24, 2008, 11:44:05 AM
This looks soooo good.
could someone please help me convert this recipie
to 15" x 2"
 I am not really understanding the pizza conversion tool that is linked.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2008, 02:01:35 PM
could someone please help me convert this recipie
to 15" x 2"
 I am not really understanding the pizza conversion tool that is linked.

lj,

BTB posted two recipes most recently, one in Reply 16 and one in Reply 19. They are not the same. Which one did you have in mind?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on November 24, 2008, 02:22:19 PM
I would like to try #19 the one where he uses more semolina.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2008, 03:39:33 PM
lj,

I took a stab at modifying the recipe for your pan size.

Based on your pan size (15") and depth (2"), I entered the following information into the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html:

1. A nominal thickness factor of 0.125 (I believe that this is the number used by BTB)
2. "1" as the number of dough balls
3. "Straight-sided" as the style of your pan (I assume your pan is straight-sided)
4. 15" as the diameter of the pan
5. 1.5" as the depth of the dough up the sides of the pan (I believe that that is the depth that BTB uses)
6. All of the baker's percents recited by BTB for his recipe in Reply 19, except for the semolina (note that there is no salt, so the "None" block should be checked for the salt)
7. A bowl residue compensation of 1.5%

As a result of the above entries, I got the following dough formulation (which I modified slightly to reflect that part of the all-purpose flour will be replaced by semolina flour):

Flour and Semolina Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.7%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.45%):
483.04 g  |  17.04 oz | 1.06 lbs
227.03 g  |  8.01 oz | 0.5 lbs
3.38 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
28.98 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.44 tsp | 2.15 tbsp
89.36 g | 3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.62 tbsp | 0.41 cups
4.83 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
7.25 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
3.62 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
847.5 g | 29.89 oz | 1.87 lbs | TF = 0.126875
*Note: The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 362.28 g. (12.78 oz.) all-purpose flour and 120.76 g. (4.26 oz.) semolina flour; the semolina flour translates to about 11.5 tablespoons, or about 0.72 cups (a bit less than 3/4 cup); the semolina flour represents 25% of the Flour and Semolina Blend; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I hope you will let us know how things turn out. Keep in mind that it is easy enough to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool to make the crust thicker or thinner. You also have some flexibility to adjust thickness by pushing the dough higher or lower in the pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on November 24, 2008, 03:49:22 PM
Thank you!
These look awsome!! great shots and explanations of procedure (and comments tips) by Pete. Where else can you get this guidance? I am ordering semolina today and now will have a tough time to decide which post turkey pie to make 1st. The cracker or these beauties ???
Now I'm hungry again!
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on November 24, 2008, 05:03:09 PM
Peter,
  Thank you soooo much for helping me convert it.
 one more question, what scale do you use? Ive always used cups and spoons to measure
will it be easy for me to use a scale? any recomondations on what kind to get?
  Thanks again Peter, I really appreciate your help, I'm from chicago but I have been living  in Florida
since 2004, and I am giving up trying to find good thin cracker crust and deep dish pizza and thought
i might have better luck to try and make it myself.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2008, 05:38:05 PM

one more question, what scale do you use? Ive always used cups and spoons to measure
will it be easy for me to use a scale? any recomondations on what kind to get?

lj,

I have a Soehnle Futura digital scale that I purchased a few years ago on the recommendation of a member and after reading good reviews on that scale. However, there are many good digital scales out there, at different price points and with different features, as you will see if you review some of the threads on the forum dealing with scales, under the index http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,48.0.html. My usual practice is to recommend that members looking for a scale identify what uses they will have for the scale (which may go beyond making pizza dough) and which features are likely to be the most useful to them. Of course, price is also an important consideration. However, one digital scale that seems to be quite popular among the members, and is reasonably priced in my opinion, is the KD-7000 digital scale. That scale is sold on many online sources, including this one: http://www.saveonscales.com/product_mw_kd7000.html. If I were to buy a new scale, that is one that I would seriously consider.

It is possible to live without a digital scale, but you will have more options available to you if you have one. Sometimes the only recipes for certain doughs are recipes recited with weights and baker's percents, as you have seen with BTB's recipes in this thread. Almost all my recipes come in that format.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 24, 2008, 08:11:53 PM
Peter's formulation for a 15" diameter Chicago Style deep dish pizza is correct and that reflects a proportion of 25% semolina flour, which is a good happy medium amount of semolina.  Here are a couple of variations:  if you like a little less semolina as part of the mixture, then a 15% proportion for a 15" pan pizza would mean 410.6 g. (14.5 oz.) all-purpose flour and 72.5 g. ( 2.5 oz.) semolina flour.  For a larger proportion of semolina, which many like, then a 35% proportion for a 15" pan pizza would mean 314 g. (11 oz) all-purpose flour and 169 g (6 oz) semolina flour.  A couple of additional points:  I liberally round off on everything; melt and let the tiny bit of butter cool a little before adding in; the cream of tartar is not critical and can be left out (so don't worry about finding some); crimp or press the dough against the side of the pan tightly and repeat such after you've added all the ingredients on the pizza before baking.

About a year ago I bought a terrific Salter electronic kitchen scale at Linens & Things (like a Bed, Bath and Beyond) for about $30 and have been super happy with it.  You can do all kinds of sophisticated things with it.  Now I do most things by weight, except small things that require a Tablespoon, teaspoon, or fraction thereof.      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on November 29, 2008, 01:07:48 PM
Thanks Peter,
  I got the 8000. I ordered it on the 24th, I cant wait to get it.
Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on November 29, 2008, 01:13:47 PM
Thanks BTB,
  Thanks for all the semolina formulations! I can't wait to try this out.
I'm waiting on my pan and scale.
     That scale looks really good to. I ordered the one Peter recomended before I saw yours.
I had to get my pizza ordering out of the way so I could start thinking and focusing on Thanksgiving.
   now that Thanksgiving is out of the way its back to Pizza.  ;D :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on November 29, 2008, 08:11:29 PM
I've chosen to try this recipe as my first attempt at making a pizza! I'm scaling the 25% semolina recipe for a 14 inch pan which yields the following result thanks to the dough calculator that Pete-zza has pointed out:

Flour (100%):    428.3 g  |  15.11 oz | 0.94 lbs
Water (47%):    201.3 g  |  7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs
ADY (.7%):    3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    25.7 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    79.24 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.87 tbsp | 0.37 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Total (175.45%):   751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

I'm new to cooking in general so this has been an adventure for me. I've tried to make this twice now. The first time, I measured everything by weight. When I came to measure the corn oil I discovered that 79.24 grams is nowhere near 5.87 tablespoons. I must have measured nearer to 12 tablespoons just for the corn oil. When I was done, the resulting dough was exceptionally oily. I let it sit in the fridge for 24 hours. At the end of the 24 hour period the dough was sitting in a very large pool of oil. Rather than waste a good can of 6-in-1 to what must have been a mistake I threw the dough out and labeled it a learning experience. This second time around I've measured everything solid as a weight and everything liquid with its corresponding liquid measurement - tbsp/tsp. The dough looks much more like dough as opposed to the swamp that I made the first time, but the total weight isn't close to 751.45 grams since I omitted the lake of liquid. Am I doing any of this right? I'll be cooking the second dough tomorrow.

Sorry if this really should be in the newbie section!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 30, 2008, 12:56:02 PM
While Chicago Style Deep Dish pizza dough's always have a lot of oil it (the range is often anywhere from 15 to 30 %) , that generally shouldn't happen, vanBanditas.  But I sometimes have experienced what you did and when I did, it generally meant that I should have put some more flour in the mixture.  Just keep adding a little more at a time till the dough comes together nicely in a ball.  And when it did happen, I just took the dough ball and put it on a well floured counter, sprinkled some flour and pressed it out fairly well into a circle almost the size of the pan, then carefully lifted it into the pan (sometimes rolling it up on a rolling pin), and then flattening it out some more in the pan.  And when that happens, it's best to coat the pan with Crisco instead of oil (or even nothing at all).  But that hasn't happened to me in some time.  I getting to learn that after some experience, you get a "feel" for when the dough ball is just right.

Based on Peter's recent recommended way of calculating the semolina in the formulation, which does not utilize putting a semolina figure or amount into the deep dish tool itself (even tho there's a blank space for it), you manually calculate the proportions of AP flour and Semolina flour (i.e., in this case 75% and 25% of the total flour amount).  Thus your formulation for a 14" deep dish (assuming straight-side and 1.5" up the side) is:

Flour and Semolina Blend* (100%):  428.3 g  |  15.11 oz | 0.94 lbs
Water (47%):  201.3 g  |  7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs
ADY (.7%):  3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  25.7 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  79.24 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.87 tbsp | 0.37 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):  4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Total (175.45%): 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
*Note: The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 321.2 g. (11.33 oz.) all-purpose flour and 107.1 g. (3.77 oz.) semolina flour.

Good luck and let us know how the second dough turned out.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on November 30, 2008, 11:11:11 PM
Success! Many thanks for this great recipe and advice! The dough was awfully thin as a result of the lower-than-expected weight, I think, but it tasted great!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2008, 11:50:45 PM
When I came to measure the corn oil I discovered that 79.24 grams is nowhere near 5.87 tablespoons.

vonBanditos,

When BoyHitsCar (Mike) and I designed the deep-dish dough calculating tool, we relied a lot on the nutrition data given at nutritiondata.com on the different types of oil. Generally speaking, one teaspoon of corn oil, canola oil, olive oil, and vegetable oil all weigh about the same, about 0.16 ounce. Measuring out oil by using measuring spoons can be a bit tricky because some of the oil sticks to the measuring spoon and it is hard to see the meniscus as you are measuring out the oil. However, tonight I measured out 5.87 tablespoons (about 17.5 teaspoons) of corn oil in a a half-cup measuring cup (tared out) and the weight was close to 79 grams, just as specified in the dough formulation you used. It is hard to imagine that any brand of corn oil would require 12 tablespoons (36 teaspoons) to get 79 grams. You might want to repeat your measurement of the corn oil to see if you can confirm the results of your last test. I frequently use large amounts of oil for certain doughs and my finished dough weights are always in line with my calculated quantities as derived from using the dough calculating tools. That leads me to believe that the oil weight and volume data built into the deep-dish dough calculating tool are correct and accurate.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on December 01, 2008, 12:40:02 AM
vonBanditos,

When BoyHitsCar (Mike) and I designed the deep-dish dough calculating tool, we relied a lot on the nutrition data given at nutritiondata.com on the different types of oil. Generally speaking, one teaspoon of corn oil, canola oil, olive oil, and vegetable oil all weigh about the same, about 0.16 ounce. Measuring out oil by using measuring spoons can be a bit tricky because some of the oil sticks to the measuring spoon and it is hard to see the meniscus as you are measuring out the oil. However, tonight I measured out 5.87 tablespoons (about 17.5 teaspoons) of corn oil in a a half-cup measuring cup (tared out) and the weight was close to 79 grams, just as specified in the dough formulation you used. It is hard to imagine that any brand of corn oil would require 12 tablespoons (36 teaspoons) to get 79 grams. You might want to repeat your measurement of the corn oil to see if you can confirm the results of your last test. I frequently use large amounts of oil for certain doughs and my finished dough weights are always in line with my calculated quantities as derived from using the dough calculating tools. That leads me to believe that the oil weight and volume data built into the deep-dish dough calculating tool are correct and accurate.

Peter

Pete-zza,

This has me baffled! I can't tell if the problem is with my spoon, my scale, or just plain me! I'm using an inexpensive scale that I picked up from Amazon for the sole purpose of making pizza - an Escali P115c. I tested it with a quarter and it correctly identified my reference weight to be 5 grams (its maximum precision is in grams). Using generic Giant Eagle brand corn oil (the local grocery store brand) a tablespoon weighed in at 9 grams or 0.3 oz. I then measured 5 more tablespoons to give it a total of 6 tablespoons - results: 52g or 1.85 oz. Given the beauty of your pizzas I can only conclude that my scale is wonky, my technique is exceedingly poor (this wouldn't surprise me!), or my tablespoon isn't much of a tablespoon! 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: November on December 01, 2008, 01:05:54 AM
I tested it with a quarter and it correctly identified my reference weight to be 5 grams (its maximum precision is in grams).

I wouldn't use a US quarter as it weighs 5.67 g, which could round up to 6 g on some scales.  A US nickel however, weighs exactly 5 g.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2008, 09:11:28 AM
Pete-zza,

This has me baffled! 

vonBanditos,

I always weigh the finished dough and compare it with the number given in the dough calculating tool. That is where I am likely to detect that I did something wrong from a measurement standpoint. You might try that method next time and see what you get.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on December 01, 2008, 02:50:20 PM
vonBanditos,

I always weigh the finished dough and compare it with the number given in the dough calculating tool. That is where I am likely to detect that I did something wrong from a measurement standpoint. You might try that method next time and see what you get.

Peter

Pete-zza,

My dough weight was definitely too low - below 700 (which is why in my pictures the crust doesn't go up very high). I'll have to pay more attention to the scale and try other spoons. Thank you for the advice! I've been reading the forums for a few months and always stop to read your posts. I doubt I could have made it this far without them!

vB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2008, 03:17:17 PM
vB,

If you were below 700 grams, that is a large deficit (over 50 grams). I assume that you have been taring out the weight of your container before adding major ingredients such as flour. If you did not tare out the container with the flour (but did tare it out for the water), you would end up with a wet, underweight dough. Of course, too much oil can also yield a wet dough but that should cause the dough weight to rise.

Peter

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 02, 2008, 05:04:20 PM
Just a few comments to try to be helpful, vonbandito. A deep dish pizza, while thicker than the average midwest thin crust, is surprisingly not that thick and many NY styles actually end up thicker.  I can't make out the thickness of your pizza because we don't have a side view of a piece, so I can't comment on the effectiveness of the fermantation or whether the dough raised enough.  A TF of .125 is usually good, although the deep dish pizza at Oprah's favorite Chicago Pizzeria (allegedly), Pizano's, is considerably thinner.  It looks like your steps proceeded nicely, but I think you may have been able to push more dough to the side of the pan and then further up the side of the pan.  But it looked fine as is.  Also, it looked a little overcooked (I've done it many times, too), from viewing both the top with the sauce that appears a little dry, and from the piece that views the bottom -- it doesn't have a nice golden appearance that sometimes means its cooked right.  I've done that, too, many times and even then, it turned out very good and tasty.  So it doesn't necessarily mean it's bad.  Just a suggestion to cut back on baking time or placement on a higher oven rack.   (Matter of fact, the last one I reported on above was a little overcooked, but tasted fantastic).  But in any event, your pizza looks delicious.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on December 04, 2008, 08:05:34 AM
Pete-zza,

I only measured the second, non-oily-mess pizza. I assume that the weight was so low because I used so much less oil than called for (by weight), but I will be careful next time! I am measuring by zero-ing out my scale with a bowl or plate on it and then slowly adding the measured ingredient until I get the desired weight.

BTB,

Sadly, you are correct, it was a bit overcooked (15 minutes, rotate, 8 minutes)! It tasted wonderful, though, and it gave me enough hope that I can soon make great pizzas! As for the dough going up the pan, I had some difficulty stretching it even that far. Even that modest amount of stretching caused holes to appear in the dough and it began to get quite thin. Since my dough was underweight I can only assume that it is because I did not have enough. I will be preparing another pie for the Oscar de la Hoya fight this weekend and will take all of the suggestions given in this thread and try to make a great pie! Many thanks for all of the help!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2008, 09:40:42 AM
I only measured the second, non-oily-mess pizza. I assume that the weight was so low because I used so much less oil than called for (by weight), but I will be careful next time! I am measuring by zero-ing out my scale with a bowl or plate on it and then slowly adding the measured ingredient until I get the desired weight.

vB,

You might try weighing out only the flour and water and use volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients, using a tablespoon measuring spoon for the oils. I think you will find that that method will be good enough for your purposes. Of course, you can weigh out the oils also, if you prefer. In that case, the way I would do it is to use a proper-size measuring cup, tare it out, and add both oils to the measuring cup. You might need just a tad bit more oil to compensate for the fact that some of the oil will stick to the inner walls of the measuring cup. (One way to deal with this is to lightly coat the inside of the measuring cup with a bit of oil before taring it out.)

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 08, 2008, 04:24:11 PM
I hope you continue with your pizzamaking efforts, vb, as it can only get better and better. 

As seen earlier in this thread, I've been interested in continually adding some semolina flour into the pizza dough mixture for Chicago Style deep dish and have been experimenting with different proportions of semolina.  My latest had been with a 35% proportion of Semolina, which is the highest I've tried to date.  Based on Peter's recent recommended way of calculating the semolina in the formulation, which does not utilize putting a semolina figure or amount into the deep dish calculating tool itself, I manually calculated the proportions of AP flour and Semolina flour (i.e., in this case 65% and 35% of the total flour amount).
 
Using my 12" Pizzaware deep dish pan with 2" straight sides (and 1.5" of dough up the side), my latest experiment -- using the deep-dish dough calculation tool -- involved the following formulation:
 
Flour and Semolina Blend*  (100%):  329.88 g  |  11.64 oz | 0.73 lbs
Water (47%):  155.04 g  |  5.47 oz | 0.34 lbs
ADY (.7%):  2.31 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  19.79 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.4 tsp | 1.47 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  61.03 g | 2.15 oz | 0.13 lbs | 4.52 tbsp | 0.28 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):  3.3 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  4.95 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Total (174.7%): 576.3 g | 20.33 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.126875
*Note:   The Flour and Semolina Blend is made up of 214.42 g. (7.56 oz.) all-purpose flour and 115.46 g. (4.07 oz.) semolina flour.
 
As before I used KAAP flour and Bob's Red Mill Semolina flour and calculated a 1.5% bowl residue.  I proceeded about the same as indicated above and put in a lot of cheese this time (first some slices of low moisture part skim mozzarella, then some shredded whole milk mozzarella, then some pieces of provolone, and finally some scrapes of some good fresh mozzarella that I had left in the refrigerator).  And of course I put a sausage patty on top of that, which is my favorite ingredient, but others can choose many different variations. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 08, 2008, 04:26:13 PM
I baked the pizza at 450 degrees F for about 23 to 25 minutes, turning 180 degrees after 15 minutes, and putting it on the next to the bottom rack in the oven.  The pizza was excellent as I hope you can see from the pictures and my pizza tasters and I are very hard pressed to say whether the deep dish is better with a small amount or a greater amount of semolina.  They've all been great to date.  But I can definitely say that the Chicago Style deep dish pizzas are better with semolina than without it.  The semolina gives it a little crispier and light crutch texture that I think is really, really good.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 08, 2008, 04:39:05 PM
BTB,
Awesome ! I was too busy for pizza this weekend. Major Honey do list ::) But as mentioned This is my next pie to try.
Just 2 things I am following up  on.
You do no par baking like some of the other posts and styles of crusts right? and
Can  you tell me what you are doing with the sausage? appears uncooked, as you mentioned in a previous thread right? Is this the pattie type you are mashing down? removing from casing? or neither? Do some of the chicago places ( uno all I know) use chunk as well? what type of sausage do you prefer? Where does the grease go? Have you? will you try pepperoni? and post those wonderful pics please.
thank you
John
ps. never too much cheese!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 08, 2008, 05:52:41 PM
John, I know about those honey do lists.  No, I don't par bake the dough or skins for Chicago Style deep dish.  About the only style that I do that with are the cracker crusts and some other thin crusts.  Once about a year ago I tried par baking a deep dish (without semolina) and it didn't come out bad.  I intended to pursue trying it again sometime in the future, but never got around to it.  "So many pizzas and so few days!"

I used to get the sausage from a specialty Italian deli without the casing and press it out in a circle between two sheets of parchment paper or wax paper.  But my favorite sausage now comes from an independent deli shop that only does it in links or casings.  I just cut the casing down the middle and take the meat out and squeeze it out onto the paper.  The Chicago deep dish places put a lot of sausage on their pizzas, so much so that it often appears to be in a patty configuration.  But the only place that I know that does the patty routinely is the famous Gino's East.  Lou Malnati's puts the sausage down in chunks, but if you've ever seen them making a sausage pizza on television, they put it so close together that it appears to look like a patty.  You can do it anyway, however.  Chunks or pieces are just fine.  And a little or a lot is one's choice.

Good sausage has little to no grease.  Most people mistake the water from some of the whole milk or fresh mozzarella cheese as coming from the sausage, but it's not usually the sausage.  Use fresh mozzarella sparingly, if at all.  It is delicious of course, but often makes for too wet a pizza.  I estimate that 99% of Chicago pizzerias put their sausage on a pizza raw or totally uncooked as they cook a pizza longer and at a lower temperature than pizzas back East and elsewhere.  And most of the sausage is a lean mild or sweet sausage with hot or spicy sausage not being that common on pizzas.  And I often put pepperoni on a portion or sometimes all of the pizza in addition to the sausage.  I like the Boar's Head brand best.  When you use pepperoni, remember to first "nuke" it in the microwave on a paper towel for 30 seconds or so to "degrease" it.  That's what many of the veteran pizza makers on this website do to prevent a lot of grease that always comes from pepperoni.

Good luck with your pizzamaking.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 08, 2008, 07:11:10 PM
When you use pepperoni, remember to first "nuke" it in the microwave on a paper towel for 30 seconds or so to "degrease" it.  That's what many of the veteran pizza makers on this website do to prevent a lot of grease that always comes from pepperoni.


A few months ago, I read a bit in an email article from Cook's Illustrated about using the microwave to degrease pepperoni slices. I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist of the recommendation was to place the pepperoni slices between sheets of paper towels and then place the paper towels/pepperoni slices between two dinner plates, and then put that assembly into the microwave. I usually microwave the assembly at full power for about 15 seconds and check to see if more microwaving is necessary. You don't want to overdo it because the pepperoni slices can get too dry. You don't want to extract all of the fat. Some brands of pepperoni slices have more fat than others, so microwaving the slices in steps is perhaps the prudent way to go. In my case, the pepperoni slices I use are the standard supermarket Hormel slices (the larger ones in the pouch and the smaller ones sealed in plastic).

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 08, 2008, 07:31:25 PM
I pre-fry my Italian sausage toppings and then drain on paper towels to reduce the fat. I haven't tried microwaving them but it's worth a try.

Michael
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 10, 2008, 07:00:01 AM
I had to try this out, the talk of it was too big and pics looked too good not to.

I made a 10" using my own Malnati's clone recipe swapping out 20% of the flour for semolina.

Flour                  203g
Semolina              51
Water (47%)       119
Corn Oil (19%)      48
Olive Oil (4%)       10
ADY (1%)              3

This was a same day dough with the first rise in the oven for 1 1/2 hours with the light on and some hot water for humidity.  The second rise was a counter rise for two hours.  Made it half sausage/half pepperoni.  Greased bottom of pan with Crisco and baked at 475* for 20 minutes turning 180* half way through.

I really don't know what to say as it's been covered pretty well in this thread.  It was really good!  It does have a little more snap with the semolina. I have no pics to show as my wife has our digital camera in Florida on vacation with our older daughter, but it didn't look much different from my other efforts or some of those in this thread.  The best endorsement I can give is that I will be making a couple of pies on Friday when my Dad comes in to town and I'm going with this recipe for those pizzas.


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 10, 2008, 08:39:14 AM
Loo
That sounds great! I am also making this Manalti style this weekend I may just double your recipe and use whatever dough it takes to make a 14 " I think 6G ADY yeast may be too much?( My new deep dish pan 14X2 :D) and mini pie the balance, or if Peter or someone can give me the calculation for a 14" that would be great! I just don't have the Calculator tool worked out yet . I am stumped with the thickness factors. I do have a few questions if you could please.
You use ADY instead of IDY for same day from what I have both  but from what  I have read IDY would be better for a same day? Or just does not matter? I will be doing overnight refrigorated rise
What type of cheese are you using? Block? shred? part skimand how much (weight and thickness?)
Did you pre cook your sausage, or nuke your pepperoni?
Crisco vs. oil on pan
Thats lower rack at 475  20 min. right? Did you finish it on stone out of pan?
Sauce is 6 in 1 Drained or undrained?
I have the new york style pretty wired so I am excited to advance my repertiore so please anyone BTB,MM,DKM feel free to help me out I do appreciate it. Based on what I have been making with Caputo 00 I know my brain is going to tell me " this dough is not right" I have never made this shaggy/flaky type so thanks for all the pictures, They say 1000 words! Thats whats so cool about this forum.
Thanks all
JOHN
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 10, 2008, 09:44:29 AM
John,

Maybe loo can help you with a dough formulation for your 14" x 2" deep-dish pan, since he is most intimately familiar with his own dough formulation, but if he can remind me of what thickness factor he uses, and how far up the side of his (straight-sided?) pan he pushes the dough, the type of salt he uses, and also whether he uses a bowl residue compensation (and, if so, what value), maybe I can help you with the dough formulation for your particular pan. With that information, I might even ask you to take a first stab at using the deep-dish dough calculating tool to get you to feel more comfortable using that tool.

As far as using ADY or IDY is concerned, there is no reason why you can't use either form of yeast in this case, although I would personally stick to the ADY to be true to loo's dough formulation. I assume that you will follow loo's dough preparation method, but what I don't offhand recall, and maybe loo can remind us, is whether he rehydrates the ADY in warm water before using in his dough formulation. He might even be able to provide a link to his dough preparation method and also offer advice on your plan to use an overnight cold rise rather than a room-temperature rise. For example, for an overnight cold fermentation, you might want to reduce the amount of ADY. Maybe loo has also tried an overnight cold fermentation.

You should also keep in mind that the amounts of sauce and fillings that loo uses with his 10" pan will be less than what you will need for your 14" pan. However, it should be possible to extrapolate from his quantities to your size pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 10, 2008, 10:08:56 AM
Thanks Peter,
I stabbed at  the calculator using loos percentagesand 14". I guess as you mentioned the thickness factor would make a difference in the formulation, about 60 G more for a .125 than a .115 thickness is this the area/range I should be using for thickness for this style? The tools really give no average ranges, as I said that is the part that has me down on all the dough tools. Is there any way to explain (reference) how thick say a .125  like 2 nickles..? is without a micrometer? if thats the right tool. That is the desired thickness after baking I assume. anyway think I have something here for 14" x 1.5" up pan looks like this

356 G flour 80%
89 G semolina 20%
4.45 G IDY 1%
13.35 G olive oil 3%
80.12 G Corn oil 18%

168% total 747.75G Sound about right?
I may bump up semolina to 25% add a touch of sugar 1% and a touch of Margarine1%  and a .5% of salt after re reading this entire thread and the BTB postings .125 thickness I hope.
Will give it whirl with pictures
John




Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 10, 2008, 10:35:41 AM
John,

I suggest waiting for loo to respond to be sure that we are on the right track. As for the thickness factor, it is what I believe Tom Lehmann calls a "loading" factor. It is not an actual physical thickness. For example, a dough skin with a particular thickness factor can have one physical thickness if it is not allowed to rise (proof), and another physical thickness if it is allowed to rise. The various tools were designed to give the greatest flexibility possible within the design constraints of the tools. That is one reason why the tools don't specify recommended thickness factors. However, for the Chicago deep-dish style, I would say that the range of thickness factors I have seen on the forum is about 0.11-0.14. If you read the posts that describe the various tools and their use, you will see that the tools were primarily designed to be used with known dough formulations where the baker's percents are already known (or can be ascertained) and from which thickness factors can be calculated. Of course, one can also use the tools to design new dough formulations. In such a case, one will have to select a thickness factor to use. The tools don't tell you how to do that. They only do calculations based on the inputs provided.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 10, 2008, 10:39:31 AM
And they are great tools! think I got it now. I will let you know how I make out this weekend, and try for a few pics of the process and results I need a substitute for the 6 in 1s not here as of yet  :'(

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 10, 2008, 10:53:37 AM
Using the Deep Dish Calculating tool, I first entered a checkmark in the Thickness Factor Box, then put in a TF of .125, which is the most common for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas.  I don't know what the exact thickness is, but on subsequent trials you can increase or decrease as you like.  I then put the number 1 in the box for Desired number of dough balls.  Then checked straight-sided, then entered 14" in the Enter your pan's diameter box, then entered 1.5 in the box that indicates How far up the sides of the pan will the dough go (which is pretty standard if your pan is 2" deep)?

Then I put simply 47 in the box for Enter the desired dough hydration, which is the percentage of water.  Then I put a check mark in the ADY box and the number 1 in the box for Enter the desired commercial yeast amount to follow Loo's (not mine) suggested amount of yeast, which isn't much different from my .7 amount.  I and I think Loo generally always use and prefer ADY to IDY, but that's up to you. I highly prefer ADY for either same day or retarded (refrigerated)   Check none for salt, unless you'd like a little.

Then put in 3 in the olive oil box and 18 in the corn oil box.  Check No for whether its a stuffed pizza or not and then I added a 1.5 in the bowl residue box.  And the result shows the following formulation for a 14" deep dish pizza:

Flour (100%):    452.68 g  |  15.97 oz | 1 lbs
Water (47%):    212.76 g  |  7.5 oz | 0.47 lbs
ADY (1%):    4.53 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    13.58 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.02 tsp | 1.01 tbsp
Corn Oil (15%):    67.9 g | 2.4 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.03 tbsp | 0.31 cups
Total (166%):   751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Then you have to calculate the proportion of semolina to determine what amount of all-purpose flour and semolina flour to use of the 452.68 grams (15.97 oz) designated for flour.  For an 80/20 blend that Loo used, it would be in your case for the 14" pizza 362.14 g (12.78 oz) of all-purpose flour and 90.54 g (3.19 oz) of semolina flour.

Only for Chicago Style deep dish do I drain the 6 in 1 and only for 45 minutes (otherwise it gets too dry I think).  I most often add some small diced pieces of tomatoes along with it and generally use sliced low moisture part skim mozzarella and  most often add a little provolone on top of that, but one can vary that alot, even using shredded cheese. 

Best of luck.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 10, 2008, 11:33:29 AM
Yep I caught that too! and used the 1.5 waste in the tool. So I am completely on board. Only wish it were the weekend now! I am now planning to do 2-9 inchers and simply use these percentages, (25% semlina as your posts got better and better)  That way I can do 1 pep. and 1 sausage. I think it will be easier to work with, and they look so sweet and deep in the photos. I will ad a touch of provolone, a tiny touch of salt and use your ADY yeast .7 %ish  How exciting! any substitute suggestions for the 6in1's?
Thanks again everybody look out New Jersey - Chicago's comin to town.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 10, 2008, 11:58:57 AM
I am not trying to jump the gun on loo on his modified Malnati dough formulation using semolina, but I did take a look at one of his Malnati clone dough formulations at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3115.msg26413/topicseen.html#msg26413. Using the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the ingredient quantities he referenced in the above post, I established that the dough is pushed 1.5 inches up the sides of his 2" pan, and that the pan is straight-sided. The nominal thickness factor is indeed 0.125. I also established that loo did not use a bowl residue compensation. However, he did use less ADY, possibly because he used cold fermentation. So, pending reply from loo, John may want to use less ADY for his 9" doughs if he still plans to use cold fermentation. loo also rehydrated the ADY in all of the formula water (warm).

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 10, 2008, 01:26:18 PM
While I have not tried it, I've seen many on this website indicate that they thought the crush tomatoes in the Walmart house brand (think it's "Great Value" brand) is a pretty good substitute for 6 in 1.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 10, 2008, 02:01:21 PM
Back from the store with Red Pack Crushed. Cento organic diced? Bobs Red Mill Semolina, some rice flour for the peel (later) and Pete The Hormel Pep. was on sale 2 pkg for $4 thats the best I have seen! date on back March 09 they will be lucky to make it to Dec 08! I think thats just a sell by date? I keep this stuff around a month or 2 with no prob. after opening. Another tid-bit I picked up was some Marscapone cheese just because I think I remember reading about it?  I'll do the simple search here, and sure you could dig me up a few links peter? 
On a side note; I was there looking for the  bobs red mill which I knew they sell because I got it from their web site. The manager was there doing some pricing or whatever the manager does  and he pointed me to it. "great"  I said I plan to use 25% of this and the KAAP flour to make a deep dish. The reply was " why go thru all that I just call pizza hut"  after the shock, with the recent posts burning on my mind,  I prepared to give a dissertation on the ailing chain. Nope, I just smirked and said "That works"  if she only knew ;D

Back to the Pie.
Thats exactly how I reversed loos formulation as well peter. 1.5 " up, straight pan .125 TF and a 1.5 waste. so I guess I finally do have it figured out.
Allways open and grateful for suggestions and advice
Thank you in advance for a slice of the good stuff.
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 10, 2008, 02:37:45 PM
Sorry I didn't jump back in sooner.  Now I haven't read everything back to my last post but real quick, and sorry I didn't post this in my original, I know better, I use a thickness factory of .130 without adding a % for bowl residue.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 10, 2008, 03:02:15 PM
Loo
That sounds great! I am also making this Manalti style this weekend I may just double your recipe and use whatever dough it takes to make a 14 " I think 6G ADY yeast may be too much?( My new deep dish pan 14X2 :D) and mini pie the balance, or if Peter or someone can give me the calculation for a 14" that would be great! I just don't have the Calculator tool worked out yet . I am stumped with the thickness factors. I do have a few questions if you could please.
You use ADY instead of IDY for same day from what I have both  but from what  I have read IDY would be better for a same day? Or just does not matter? I will be doing overnight refrigorated rise
What type of cheese are you using? Block? shred? part skimand how much (weight and thickness?)
Did you pre cook your sausage, or nuke your pepperoni?
Crisco vs. oil on pan
Thats lower rack at 475  20 min. right? Did you finish it on stone out of pan?
Sauce is 6 in 1 Drained or undrained?
I have the new york style pretty wired so I am excited to advance my repertiore so please anyone BTB,MM,DKM feel free to help me out I do appreciate it. Based on what I have been making with Caputo 00 I know my brain is going to tell me " this dough is not right" I have never made this shaggy/flaky type so thanks for all the pictures, They say 1000 words! Thats whats so cool about this forum.
Thanks all
JOHN


John, I'm sorry, if I had more time this morning I would have gone into greater detail about how I made this. 

To answer the questions:

-I ferment as I can.  Yesterday I had to do it same day because it struck me that I haven't made a DD in months and I wanted one.  I'm a bachelor this week and don't have to explain it to my wife. :P  I'm going to make my dough on Thursday for Friday night's use and it will get less ADY and fridge rise.

-I use only sliced part skim low moisture mozz but occasionally will go 50/50 with provalone.  Whole milk doesn't seem to reheat as well.

-I never precook my sausage but have nuked my pepperoni before.

-I like to use Crisco because a solid fat is easier to work the dough into the pan with than the oil.

-I went middle rack at 475 but it's more about distance from your element.  Trial and error that one.  No stone involved.

-For sauce I do something different than everyone else in this thread, I hand crush whole, peeled, tomatoes.  Crush into pieces the size of a quarter or a little larger, de-seeding as I go.  I'll then add puree back in to those crushed, drained tomatoes.  Salt and pepper is all they get.  I usually use Wal Mart's Great Value crushed tomatoes but prefer 6in1's, they just aren't usually available to me.  I don't drain them but if I was using them by themselves on a pie I would.  I make my puree from the crushed or ground tomatoes.

A lot of what I usually do is in this thread - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.40.html

Good luck.

-



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 11, 2008, 10:09:30 AM
When calculating the amount of Semolina do you use a % of the total flour or the Semolina entry in the Dough calculator?
Each method provides different amounts???

Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 11, 2008, 10:16:16 AM
MM,
Good ? before I begin. I am planning to use % of total flour for semolina no entry 0 in that box choice.
I have all the oil so I'll wait on that one I think the canola is prefered here.
J
 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2008, 10:30:02 AM
When calculating the amount of Semolina do you use a % of the total flour or the Semolina entry in the Dough calculator?
Each method provides different amounts???

Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?

Michael,

The deep-dish dough calculating tool was designed primarily to work with existing dough formulations where the baker's percents and weights are already known or can be readily ascertained. When creating a brand new dough formulation, as BTB has done, the better method to use is to treat the flour and semolina together as a blend rather than as separate entries in the tool, just as BTB has been doing most recently. That way, the hydration is treated with respect to the blend. It is possible to use semolina separately in the tool, but then it becomes necessary to re-calculate all of the baker's percents for all of the ingredients because the tool uses hydration only with respect to the flour, not the blend. Using the semolina in the tool and doing the recalculation of baker's percents ends up with some strange percents (e.g., the hydration might show up as 85% and the semolina might show up as 82%) that distort what the dough formulation really is. So, the better way is to treat the semolina and flour together in the tool as the 100% entry.

I will leave to others the question you posed relative to the different oils.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 11, 2008, 10:56:04 AM
Thanks,

That's what I thought but wasn't sure.
I'm going to try some type of Chicago style this weekend. I'll probably go with this style as it sounds great.

If anyone's interested I have an old recipe for a very thin all semolina dough with baking powder that is cooked in a dry frying pan, flipped, topped and finished in the pan with a cover on top. I've used it as a base for various appetizer ingredients.

Michael
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 11, 2008, 01:16:53 PM
Is there any significant difference between using Canola, Corn or Safflower oil in the deep dish style?

They'll all produce a different taste and my personal taste preference is using primarily corn oil.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 14, 2008, 08:54:12 PM
I had to jerk my bi coastal and honorary Italian self around quite a bit but I made a great Chicago style based on reply 16 (25% semolina) from this thread. I layered Mozz and Parmesan, It sausage (lightly fried and drained) , some chopped baby spinach mixed with a bit of grated Mozz and more Parmesan. Finished with drained 6 in 1s with some added Muir Glen chopped for texture including Basil, Oregano, granulated garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper.

While I still have trouble calling this a pizza it was delicious. I had hoped to try  a Mexican version as well but we had a nasty ice storm here Thursday night and while I never lost power I had a lot of downed trees to clean up.  Next time!

Frankly it's a good thing I only made one 9" pie as my wife and I could only eat half of it.

Michael
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 15, 2008, 08:39:59 AM
Micheal ,
Looks great !
I also made my first deep dish made 2 nine inch pies 1 sausage one pepperoni slightly nuked to degrease (and 7  NY Neapolitan hey the oven was hot) oh and thanks to Peter 1 BBQ Chicken Dogh tool was perfect final weight was right on!
Thank you BTB and Loo for your input tasted great!! Crust did not look as shaggy but tasted very very similar to the last UNO I had. Used the drained 6-1 and added 1 can of Hand crushed DOP San Marzanos
to chunk it up a bit. Because I could and because I have been buying to many sample tomatoes and the cabinet is full  :D Reduced the liquid from both and used it for the NY style sauce. Yummy.
I will posts pics of the process / results tonight. Guaranteed to make you hungry.
Thanks again
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 15, 2008, 09:19:49 AM
Many thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. My first attempt was a great success. I think I'm going to try one of the more biscuity types next time.

If you have never made a Chicago style before keep in mind that the dough is nothing like a NY or Neapolitan. At first I thought something had gone wrong and was horrified by the greasy ball of dough I made. I went back and confirmed the amounts of oil in typical Chicago recipes and was reassured.

This may be obvious but if you like to use Italian sausage it's worth trying to find an Italian deli or butcher that makes their own sausage. I've found it is almost always leaner and of higher quality than what you find at the supermarket.
It freezes very well so you can stock up if the store is not nearby.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2008, 09:42:39 AM
Michael,

When I first researched the doughs for the Chicago deep-dish style, especially the dough recipes of folks who worked in the business and offered up dough recipes, I found the range of oil to be around 8-24% (or thereabouts). However, the members on this forum sometimes exceed the outer limit.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 15, 2008, 09:43:57 AM
I forgot to mention the 1 mistake I made. When I was reading "I added water to flour and let stand for about 25 Min." Well I added water and oils then read "after that I added the oils and..."
I still let it all rest minus 1/2 cup of  flour, for like 20Min., and turned out fine. Maybe that affected the hydration and that is why it was not as dry looking> Yes plenty oily but I expected that. Spread into crisco pan nicely.
Same thing here, I cannot wait to make this again  good stuff  and leftovers for lunch today if I make it that long ;D
JOhn
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 15, 2008, 11:27:43 AM
Peter

This recipe calls for:

Olive Oil (5%)
Corn Oil (18%)
Butter/Margarine (1%):

I'd like to try reducing the corn and perhaps the olive oil. What effect would this have on the dough and what amounts would you suggest?

Michael
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2008, 12:48:49 PM
Michael,

There are others who are perhaps better qualified than I to address your question, but at high oil levels the flour in the dough is prevented from being fully hydrated (reduced cohesion between wheat gluten strands), leading to reduced gluten development (the gluten needs good hydration for development). So, the gluten strands will become less elastic and the finished crust will be tender. To the extent that solid fats are used, like butter or margarine or shortening, their use will shorten the length of the gluten strands (hence, the term "shortening") and contribute to flakiness in the finished crust. As you reduce the amount of oil and/or the solid fats in a dough formulation, you should expect to experience more gluten development, because of more complete hydration, and less flakiness or biscuit-like effect. So, the crust will start to approach that of a crust made from a more standard dough. An additional effect of reducing the amounts of oils and fats in a dough is that there will be some loss of flavor, since one of the purposes of using oil or fat in a dough is to get the flavor profile and richness that they contribute. There will also be a reduced fat "mouthfeel", which some people find very desirable. Of course, the caloric count will be down also.

The amount of oils and fats to use is, to a great extent, a matter of personal taste preference and also what kind of texture in the finished crust you would like to have. Hence, I can't tell you where you should draw the line in your case. If I were trying to draw that line for myself, I would perhaps start at the low end of the range and compare the results with higher oil and fat values. Remember, too, that reducing the oil in a given dough formulation will also require adjustment of the hydration of the dough, with effects that may not be known, or even liked, until you try out the final formulation. That is why I personally would look for an existing deep-dish dough formulation that uses low levels of oils and fats. Even then, you should be able to use some semolina flour as part of the overall flour blend. I did a quick search and found a Tom Lehmann deep-dish dough recipe at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=54 (http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=54) that uses low oil levels. Surprisingly, the amount of oil is even lower than the lower limit I mentioned in my last post.  Another fairly low-oil deep-dish dough formulation is the one that appears at pages 130-131 of Peter Reinhart's pizza cookbook American Pie. That recipe calls for 5 tablespoons of corn oil, with an estimated baker's percent of around 11%. However, I should caution you that my recollection is that some of the members did not care for the Reinhart recipe. Of course, that doesn't mean that you will react the same way to the Reinhart recipe. 

Peter

Edit (2/15/14): For a replacement for the above inoperative link, see http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Deep-Dish-Pizza/record/57725/ (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/Deep-Dish-Pizza/record/57725/)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mmarston on December 15, 2008, 01:04:55 PM
Peter,

Thanks again, your knowledge and memory are, as always, amazing.

Michael
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 15, 2008, 08:57:27 PM
Here are the 2 babies from yesterday My first try at BTB recipe
as I said my dough looked slightly different especially after final ball  as seen here but again nice biscuit flavor
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 15, 2008, 08:59:51 PM
shell , cheese fresh  mozz ,and a touch of provy, sweet sausage deskinned
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 15, 2008, 09:03:49 PM
viola chicago deep dish and a few NY Neopolitan Style that followed  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mad_Ernie on December 16, 2008, 09:33:59 AM
Sweet!!!!!! ;D

Looks good, John! :chef:

Okay, now all of you guys have me wanting to try a deep dish pizza.  I have been working mostly on my cracker/American style crusts lately, but this has me thinking I am going to need to try a Chicago deep-dish style.  All I need is (yet another) pan of the proper size and dimensions.  Maybe after Christmas shopping will be the best time to get one.

John, I especially like the Clos du Bois in the background of the first photo.  Nice touch. ;)

-ME
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 16, 2008, 09:44:30 AM
Thanks M-E
That clos du bios was not intentional, it just happend to be there maybe thats why the calzones did not come out so good ;D You have to try this recipe really taste great I did not think I was a deep dish fan but I and everbody loved it !! 6-1 are key and the semolina. I used the deep dish calculator for the 2 9" pans and it worked out perfect.

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pizza Rustica on December 17, 2008, 01:49:09 AM
Hey Guys,

Had to come in from the cold and try something new. Following your thread with great interest. Thought I'd try a deep dish this week and here it is.

Used 80% KASL, 20% semolina, olive and corn oil, 3% starter, no salt. Filled with mozz, Provo, pepperoni, spinach, red onion, black olive, 6/1 Escalon and topped with grated Romano. My first attempt at deep dish. Crust was wonderful. Very light and tasty. Not what you'd expect from a deep dish pizza. At least us Californians have a perception of a very heavy pizza. Really enjoyed the pizza. My wife's friend said it was way better than the Chicago pizza chain we have here which is her favorite. I need to work on the uniformity of the crust. Made a second one which was sausage. Tasted even better, but I spread the olive oil very thinly on the bottom of the pan and it stuck. I wasn't pretty to look at but it was very good.

here are a few pics.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 17, 2008, 07:47:01 AM
Very Nice Rustica!
As per BTB I used crisco (very light coating) and they came out of the pan beautifully. I too love the flavor of this crust it is such a nice change from the standard NY or PJ  style
Keep up the good work. Thats the fun of it is that we can make em as good or better (like petes PJ clones) as the chains with the help of everyone here.
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jeff v on December 17, 2008, 06:27:08 PM
Way to go John! That's a pro looking deep dish. Work has been getting in the way of pizza making lately, but I may have to try this one next it looks great.

Talk to you soon,
Jeff
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on December 20, 2008, 05:22:22 PM
Just made two 14" using Semolina flour as suggested in quite a few posts. I have to admit the pizza's turned out great. My wife and I now have a new recipe. I have posted a previous 14" recipe and used 20% semolina flour and deleted our favorite ..corn meal..We have also changed pizza pans to pans suggested by Pete-za. 14 inch Chicago Metallic PSTK coated. Great pans but we still use a Crisco wipe on the bottom of the pan. Thanks to everyone for all their information using Semolina.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 20, 2008, 05:30:06 PM
Flavor,
I assume you ate the evidence 8) and there are no pictures available of this beautiful recipe using semolina.
Sure is great tasting pie! Planning round 2 on this thread over the holidays and I cant wait.
Oh, just one more thing (columbo style) please tell me you and your wife did not each eat a 14 incher! These babies fill me up.

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 20, 2008, 05:57:03 PM
We have also changed pizza pans to pans suggested by Pete-za. 14 inch Chicago Metallic PSTK coated. Great pans but we still use a Crisco wipe on the bottom of the pan.

FLAVORMAN,

There is nothing wrong with using Crisco or any other solid fat in a deep-dish pan, even a dark anodized one. In fact, using a solid fat to grease the pan to fix the dough more firmly in place is Tom Lehmann's preferred method, although he usually points out that oils can also be used if desired for taste and other purposes, as he noted, for example, at a post at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=14224#14224. See also this interesting Lehmann PMQ Think Tank post: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=6662#6662.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on December 21, 2008, 09:37:32 AM
007..
I don't know how to do the picture process but you all would get a kick out of watching our twin 4 year old grandkids work the dough. They even wash their hands first..
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 21, 2008, 03:01:23 PM
Very cool . I have a 3 yrs old as of Saturday. Pics are not to hard when you get it and it helps us all so much to see the processes
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2008, 04:35:01 PM
John, that 3 year old looks like a great future premier pizza chef.  The world needs more of them as it will be a better place with more pizza.  Keep up getting good pictures to share with us.                                 --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on December 21, 2008, 07:10:22 PM
Thanks BTB and thanks obviously for the info on this thread did you check out my results? plan to try your thin semolina project over holidays
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: November on December 21, 2008, 10:01:40 PM
Throwdown With Bobby Flay: Deep Dish Pizza (against Lou Malnati) is on right now, and again at 1:00 AM EST on the Food Network.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mad_Ernie on December 22, 2008, 10:09:26 AM
Throwdown With Bobby Flay: Deep Dish Pizza (against Lou Malnati) is on right now, and again at 1:00 AM EST on the Food Network.

At the Chicago Pizza club, they posted an additional time in case anyone (like me) missed the Dec. 21 broadcasts:
It will be on again at midnight and again on December 24 at 8:00. The recipe Flay uses in the challenge is http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/bobby-flay/deep-dish-pizza-with-italian-sausage-and-broccoli-rabe-recipe/index.html (http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/bobby-flay/deep-dish-pizza-with-italian-sausage-and-broccoli-rabe-recipe/index.html).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Essen1 on December 22, 2008, 11:10:18 AM
RN,

I saw that episode, too, yesterday. Very interesting, but I didn't make it all the way to the end. Fell asleep  :-[

Who won?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 22, 2008, 12:20:55 PM
Thanks for the tip, November.  I saw the show at 1 a.m. in the morning as your alerted me to . . . zzzzz . . . zzzz. . . and enjoyed seeing my old friend, Marc Malnati, again.  I used to dined at his flagship restaurant in Lincolnwood, Illinois at least 2 or 3 times a month for 25 years or more.  He often -- in the early days -- escorted us to the table when his dad, Lou, was alive.  The program, tho, in large part was filmed at their Buffalo Grove, Illinois restaurant which I had also been a frequent diner at when I lived a few miles from it.  I really miss Marc's brand of Chicago style deep dish pizza and often crave having a piece of his great "sausage" pizza again.
 
I like Bobby Flay (one of the few I do on the FoodNetwork), but he blew it when he tried to duplicate or "interpret" a Chicago style deep dish pizza.  First of all, the crust has to be crimped or squeezed on the edges and not the "fat-lip" that occurs on some other styles of pizza.  I'm not saying that's bad, but that's just not typical of Chicago style deep dish pizza.  Second, his staff must have researched "Chicago style deep dish pizza" on Google and, as most people experienced, came up with a false, mistaken clone or copy-cat recipe that includes corn meal as part of the recipe.  I could go on for a long time on this subject, but suffice it to say that it has been proven time and time again that corn meal is NOT an ingredient in Chicago deep dish pizza at any of the renown and famous Chicago deep dish pizzerias (e.g., Lou Malnati's, Uno's and Due's, Gino's East, Pizano's, etc.).  Now . . . some people like it.  But I don't like the gritty and sandy feel that I find with corn meal inside the dough recipe itself.  It's fine with me to put it underneath the crust, but not in the dough itself.  (Semolina, however, is a totally different story.)  Just my opinion.
 
Thirdly, the great deep dish pizzerias never put hot sausage on their pizzas (along with the hot spices that Flay added).  Not saying that some may not like it, but it is extremely atypical of Chicago deep dish pizzas.  Fourth, his crust as you should note from the television program was much thicker than Malnati's.  That's because of the misnomer that Chicago style deep dish is real thick.  It is not.  It's just a little thicker than ordinary Chicago style thin crust pizza.
 
Lastly, there isn't a pizzeria in all of Illinois that I know of that would represent Chicago deep dish pizza with an ingredient such as Broccoli Rabe that was a main ingredient on Bobby Flay's Chicago style deep dish pizza on that show.  Now that isn't just plain old Broccoli, which is bad enough by itself, but a special gourmet style that is very different from typical Broccoli.  This is weird stuff and if you want to try it, be my guest (http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/broccolirabe.htm).  Most Chicagoans would say . . . yuke IMO.

But I enjoyed seeing the pictures of Marc Malnati making his great, great, great Chicago style deep dish pizza again.  I look forward to next summer when I return to his area to indulge in some of that delicious and fantastic pizza again.                                           
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on December 22, 2008, 01:23:37 PM
BTB

Small world, my family and I had our first deep dish pizza at Lou's in Lincolnwood years ago. In '82 we moved to Long Grove and spent maany Friday or Saturday nights at Lou's in Buffalo Grove when it fisrt opened. Around that time my brother and I were involved with Marc and one of his best friends in an Italian Ice project they sold retail and in the restaurants. I don't know if my old company is still involved or if they stopped producing and purchase elsewhere. It is amazing what the Malnati family has accomplished with Pizza over the years. I am an old guy and have been hooked since our first slice. To everyone have a great Holiday Season.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on December 22, 2008, 02:59:25 PM
I like Bobby Flay (one of the few I do on the FoodNetwork), but he blew it when he tried to duplicate or "interpret" a Chicago style deep dish pizza.

The intent of the show is for Bobby Flay to present a different take on a classic or standard food item. He really is not trying to best someone at their own game. If he had a mind to copy Malnati I would assume he could have come so close that in a blind test you would not know which was which. It is meant to be entertainment. I enjoyed that episode and most likely would have found both ways over the caloric/fat point of no return for me. I will attempt a clone someday for the experience, having learned on this forum how to make a great Chicago style pizza. However for day in day out I will stick with Neo or NY or a combo.

PNW

ps- I refrained from saying "that ain't real pizza anyway" LOL
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 22, 2008, 03:38:56 PM

The intent of the show is for Bobby Flay to present a different take on a classic or standard food item. He really is not trying to best someone at their own game. If he had a mind to copy Malnati . . . he could have come so close that in a blind test you would not know which was which.

I respect what you say, but I can't help but have some reservations about your interpretation of the intent of the show.  I know its a form of entertainment, but supposedly they ARE trying to beat someone at their own game.  That's what a "throw down" is, I thought.  And I know he loses nearly every time, but that's to show the greatnest of the challenged food item or product, I guess.  I very seriously doubt that he could have come close to copying Malnati's pizza so much so "that in a blind test you would not know which was which . . ."  You have much more faith in Bobby Flay than I do.  He looked and acted befuddled to me on that program on the subject of deep dish pizzas.  I have alot of respect for him, but he seems to be developing more into an entertainer than a chef (and I don't think he could have come close to Marc's pizza).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Ryderman on December 22, 2008, 05:09:58 PM
I have been trying to duplicate Lou's dough for 15 yrs. I can't. By the Grace of God can anyone! I tried Semolina, butter, Crisco, different oil's. Everything ever posted, I tried. Is there a cook out there from Lou's at one time that can help? Jim
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: November on December 22, 2008, 11:22:21 PM
Who won?

B
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 23, 2008, 04:29:18 PM
I'll say it if no one else will.  Bobby Flay couldn't win.  He could never (well I know that's a long time) make a pizza crust as good as Malnati's.  Lou Malnati's pizza won by a landslide and it is usually rated No. 1 or 2 in the midwest year after year after year.  I don't think Flay and his hard working crew could ever develop a formulation that would get them even close to Malnati's (sound bias, don't I?).  In one respect, I think Bobby Flay always expects to lose.  He did with the fried chicken, chocolate chip cookie, country fried steak and many other challenges on his "throwdown" show.  Besides his crust formulation just looking terrible, most have to agree that feeding a pizza with Broccoli Rabe as a main ingredient would never, never appeal to a north suburban Chicago crowd.  Maybe to the gourmet crowd in California or at a fancy New York City restaurant, but not in Marc Malnati's back yard.  I'm ribbing a bit, but still can't get over that choice of ingredient for a pizza.  I know there are probably some of you out there that think it's perfectly logical, but I just found that funny.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on December 23, 2008, 06:09:19 PM
BTB -

Earlier in this thread you said "My guests raved about the pizza saying that it really hit the spot and that they thought it was much better than Lou Malnati's."

I don't know anything about you, are you a trained chef or other food professional that allowed you to out cook Malnati's? Bobby Flay has the services of a staff of food professionals, access to ingredients and research, etc. Why don't you think he can do what you did?

I have no axe to grind, no dog in the fight - but I do believe that a motivated chef can reconstruct just about anything given the time and resources to do so. I am a pure amateur but I can make a better pizza than most any commercial establishment I have ever been to.

PNW
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Vlap on December 23, 2008, 06:54:37 PM
I belong to several different types of cooking forums. Like the others I must say I am absolutely impressed by the incredible knowledge contained on this site. Thank you all for the recipes, photos and techniques I have seen posted throughout. This post is incredible as well. Thank you all!  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 24, 2008, 02:00:23 PM
Let's just simply agree to disagree, PNW, and leave it at that.  I like your moniker.  Let's make pizza, not war.  And let's try to make the greatest pizzas ever.  Merry Christmas.
--BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lj on December 29, 2008, 07:14:29 AM
I finally made this pizza last night, It turned out perfect!
Thank you soooo much for the awsome recipe.
   For Christmas I got 2 9 inch pans so I used your original recipe and just doubled it.
   The only thing I did different was instead of olive oil I used butter, and I added extra cheese on top
of the pizza too.
     I made 1.. sausage, onion & red pepper and the other sausage.
Thanks for your great recipe and all the help. I will be making this pizza once a week  :chef:
   
Those 6 in 1 tomatoes are the best tomatoes I have ever tasted... I just added basil, oregano and honey...Yummm
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on January 10, 2009, 11:19:48 AM
Last night was our try at BTB's recipe.

Let me preface and say that other than a Cooking Light recipe from 2004 or 2005, I have never made deep dish before.  We like the CL recipe, but the crust was definitely not what all the Chicago experts have been describing. 

We also have never actually HAD real Chicago-style pizza, having grown up and lived much of our lives in the NY 'burbs.

I made a 12" BTB Malnati with 25% semolina.  I don't have a deep dish pan, so I patted it into my 12" Lodge cast iron skillet (which is what I use for the Cooking Light recipe).  It was definitely unlike any other dough, bread, pizza, cookie, or pie that I've ever made or worked with, but I had faith


I topped it with mozzarella slices and a little shredded Stella asiago because I didn't have any provolone.

Then I made a patty of chicken Italian sausage (made with dark meat, I believe, it's from Sprouts) that I formed on plastic wrap, then flipped onto the cheese and peeled off the wrap.  Then a few slices of pepperoni (which I think I should have nuked a little first.



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on January 10, 2009, 11:30:31 AM
Continuing on....

I had some cremini mushrooms (baby bellas) in the fridge that needed using, so I sliced them and sauteed them until mostly dry, with a little minced garlic for taste.  Seems I forgot to take a photo of this.

Finally, some drained Sprouts crushed tomatoes in puree that I'd drained, which were mixed with Penzey's Pizza seasoning, a little white pepper, kosher salt, and honey (per BTB).  And here I made an error - I didn't know how much sauce I'd need and had only bought 1 can of the Sprouts tomatoes, so I had to add some S&W organic tomato sauce to give me enough volume.  In retrospect, I should have used some drained diced Muir Glen instead, since the sauce baked up a little too gloopy.  Sorry for the blurry photo.

The final topping was freshly grated parm.

I started the oven at 475 on bake with the pizza stone just below the middle.  After 15 minutes I dropped the temperature to 450, rotated the pan, and turned on the convection fan.  The edges got a little overdone and the top started browning a bit too much so I pulled it after another 12 minutes.  In retrospect, next time I'd still preheat to 475 but drop to 450 as soon as the pizza went in. 

We let it sit for about 15 minutes before cutting.  The sauce was too loose to safely try and get the pie out of the pan (I am notorious for getting tomato sauce on my shirt when cooking, and had already sacrificed one top while draining the tomatoes), plus the outside dough was very delicate.  Again, sorry the photo is blurry.  I was taking them without the flash to get better color rendition.

It was exceedingly tasty and we will definitely try it again with the tweaks to ronis, tomatoes, and baking temperature.

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MatthewWM on January 22, 2009, 12:03:16 PM
That looks great BTB I am going to give this recipe a try and see how it turns out.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on January 29, 2009, 10:58:17 AM
Hello all - I've been lurking for a week, and was instantly enamored with this recipe.  I live in the Chicago burbs, and go to Malnati's all the time.  Cooking has become one of my favorite hobbies over the past year or so, and pizza is my favorite food, so I'm surprised I haven't found this forum before.  I've baked a few pizzas from scratch before, but never did too much research into it.  With Malnati's, Gino's, Giordano's, Aurelio's, Home Run Inn, Barone's and others close by, I guess I never found it worth the time.  Well, my culinary travels have finally brought me "home" - and so it has begun.    ;D

After reading this thread, I copied the original instructions, made my grocery list, and went shopping.  14" Chicago Metallic pan, 6-in-1, Semolina, Mozz, Provolone, Scamorza, etc. in hand - I excitedly went to work on the dough Tue night.  I went with a 20% semolina mixture.  Oddly enough, amongst the 15 or so different types of Bob's Red Mill grains, my deli did not have Semolina - so I wound up grabbing what they had, which was basically a generic brand.

As I mentioned, I printed off the original recipe posted here, so I had to go back and copy the ingredient chart for a 14" pie.  Well, when I went to proof my yeast - I read the water measurement from the 9" chart.  When I started adding flour to the yeast mixture, I quickly realized my error and added the remaining amount of water.  I'm not sure if it made any difference.  I also do not have a digital scale (yet), so all the fractionalized measurements were eyeballed on my regular scale.  In the end, the dough ball seemed very oily to me, but this was the first time I've made pizza dough with this much of an oil ratio, so it could just be I wasn't used to it.

Cheese wise I used 9.5 oz of sliced Sorrento mozz, 3.5 oz of sliced Dietz & Watson provo, 3 oz of shredded Chellino scamorza, and fresh ground Parm Reggiano (the undisputed king of cheeses).  I wasn't sure how much dry spice to add to my drained tomatoes, and would up using a little more than combined TBS of McCormick Italian Herb grinder, sea salt, white pepper, and alleppo pepper.  I skipped the ginger because I'm not a big ginger fan.  I also added some jarred minced garlic and that dash of honey, which wound up being close to 2 tsp.

Toppings wise, I went half cheese and half sausage/onion/garlic.  I sauted the white onion and freshly minced garlic.  Even though I had the local knowledge and read it many times in posts here, I went with hot italian sausage over sweet or mild because it was all I had defrosted - a local grocery brand at that - and I paid the price, as the taste was not good.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on January 29, 2009, 11:03:13 AM
...continuing on

I had preheated my oven at 475 for an hour, turned down to 450, and cooked for 15 minutes - then rotated 180 and cooked an additional 10 minutes.  It wound up being overcooked a little, but the crust was still nice.  The pie slid right out of the pan (thanks Crisco!).

This was by far the best pizza I've ever made.  My wife liked the sauce better than Malnati's.  I actually think I used too much sauce and will not use the entire 28 oz can next time.  The pie didn't taste like Malnati's - it was still awesome though.  I guess I will have to try a couple more times   8)

This was so much fun - it was all I could think about while at work yesterday.  Waiting the hour and a half for my dough to come to room temperature was painful.  Thanks to everyone who posted all the information.  I cannot wait to make my next one, as well as experiment and try some of the other recipes posted in the forum.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on January 29, 2009, 12:25:28 PM
Marleyed,

I posted awhile back if you follow many of the recipes on this blog you will have created a great pizza. Looks like you have succeeded. One question about Lou's..Not that many years ago we visited Lou's in Buffalo Grove on a weekly basis. We made a trip to Lou's a few months ago during a Chicago visit. Do you think the pizza is the same as years past? My wife and I might have had a bad night but we have also had pizza's shipped from Lou's and were very disappointed. Would like your opinion..Thanks   Flavorman
p.s.  :Your pizza looks great!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on January 29, 2009, 12:38:56 PM
Well, as I'm sure you're assuming as well, I would definitely say the pizza is better in-restaurant than the frozen take home ones.  I usually pick up a few of the frozen ones every time we go to the restaurant.  They are usually consistant taste wise, but I have gotten one that was not up to par every now and again.  They appear to make a decent effort to date them (or stamp them somehow) and keep them "fresh" - but I'm sure a few sit a while longer than they should.

The quality of the in-store pizza also varies from restaurant to restaurant.  When I first started going to the downtown Naperville restaurant, it was definitely not up to par of Schaumberg/Roselle and some of the other I've been to, but they have gotten better - I'm guessing they brought in more experienced cooks at some point.  When I say "quality" - I'm referring to taste, sometimes they are more bland than normal.

Marleyed,

I posted awhile back if you follow many of the recipes on this blog you will have created a great pizza. Looks like you have succeeded. One question about Lou's..Not that many years ago we visited Lou's in Buffalo Grove on a weekly basis. We made a trip to Lou's a few months ago during a Chicago visit. Do you think the pizza is the same as years past? My wife and I might have had a bad night but we have also had pizza's shipped from Lou's and were very disappointed. Would like your opinion..Thanks   Flavorman
p.s.  :Your pizza looks great!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 29, 2009, 12:53:46 PM
Wow, MarleyEds, that is a good looking pizza for your first venture into deep dish making.  Great job. You got my mouth watering for making another.  I used to live in the Chicago burbs, too, and often visited all the great pizza places you mentioned.  That list brings back a lot of good memories.  If interested in Bob's Red Mill brand of semolina, you can order it at http://www.bobsredmill.com/ (http://www.bobsredmill.com/), but I suspect the brand you got worked just as well.   

All the deep dish pizzas at the great deep dish pizzerias in Chicago usually have a lot of oil in their recipes.  But from your first photo of the dough in the pan, I suspect it may have been a little more than needed.  It should have had a tad more of a "flat" look to the dough rather than the "sheen" that I think appeared, but it doesn't matter that much.  Towards the end of forming the dough ball, I'm starting more and more to add a teaspoon (or two . . . or three . . .) more of flour to get the right feel and consistency to the dough ball, which includes a "non-oily" look to it (which is kind of hard to describe).  But still, there generally is a lot of oil in deep dish pizza recipes, but experiment with different quantities (as well as different types) and see what you and your family likes.

Good selection of cheeses.  I haven't had scamorza in years, but remember it was very good.  Additives to the sauce is a very, very individual thing and one needs to develop it by oneself.  I add a little of this . . and a little of that, . . stick my finger in and taste it and either say "great" or "it needs a little of something else."  And a jar of minced garlic is often close by in the refrigerator.  And you are right on about Parmesan Reggiano.  What a great flavor enhancer.

Very nice job on the photos.  I do think using the 28 oz can of sauce was a little too much.  One suggestion that my pizza tasters just love (in order to get closer to the Malnati/Due's experience) is to add a few ounces of small diced tomatoes on top of the 6 in 1.  I recently found my favorite in a brand called Glen Muir (think it was with basil and garlic or basil and olive oil) and my pizza tasters still rave about that addition.  Might be worth just trying sometime.  I tried other brands (DeMonte, etc.) and they didn't come close, I'm sorry to say.  The color of the crust looked good to me.  It was a nice golden brown and all the times I had been to the Malnati's in Lincolnwood, that was the color of the crust, unlike the pictures in their ads and even that airing recently on one TV show.

One other thought:  unless you have a lot of family or pizza eaters around, frequent use of a 14" pan leaves a lot of extra pizza (which may not be a bad thing).  My 9" pans get the most use as I can make a little or a lot, depending upon the amount of company.

Good luck with your further pizzamaking ventures.  There are so many good recipes on this site to try out and enjoy.                                   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 29, 2009, 01:21:48 PM

One question about Lou's..Not that many years ago we visited Lou's in Buffalo Grove on a weekly basis. We made a trip to Lou's a few months ago during a Chicago visit. Do you think the pizza is the same as years past? My wife and I might have had a bad night but we have also had pizza's shipped from Lou's and were very disappointed.

Flavorman, before I retired and moved to Florida, I used to dine at Malnati's at least twice a month for many, many years.  Mostly at the original Lincolnwood restaurant, next at the Elk Grove Village restaurant, then next at the Buffalo Grove one that you were at, and a few times at the Wells St. (near downtown north location).  The Wells St. location wasn't very good, but the others were and I'm sorry to hear about your disappointment with the Buffalo Grove location.  That was the one that was just featured on the "throwdown" TV show on the Food Network.  It usually had been great, but I can't say there hadn't been days, like everything, that it wasn't so good (kind of dry or lifeless . . .).  But in my experience, 9 out of 10 times, it had been great.  (They, of course, have many, many more restaurant locations now and I often wonder if growing so big doesn't affect quality control somehow.)

When I first moved to Florida, I would order a "six pack" of their frozen pizzas (and they usually then arrived by the next morning) to satisfy my "cravings."  In the beginning it was great, but then the quality got to be mixed (sometimes still great . . . sometimes not so good).  So I haven't ordered any over the internet in a couple of years, but look forward to returning to their Lincolnwood restaurant for a visit in the summer.  But I remember they had changed their heating instructions on the frozen pizzas and advised all to take the pizza out of the tins that they come in and wipe out the inevitable moisture or dampness in the bottom of the pan before attempting to heat up the pizza.  Otherwise it turns out either soggy, sticks to the tin pan, or otherwise had a not so good result.  I had learned to take it out of the pizza tin entirely and heat up the frozen or half thawed out pizza (preferred) on a pizza screen.  Those turned out much better.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on January 29, 2009, 01:31:09 PM
Thanks BTB - particularly for being the inspiration behind the venture.  Thanks for the link - I'm sure I can find Bob's Red Mill somewhere around me, it just wasn't at the store I went to - I just found it hysterical that they had 15+ other types, just not Semolina.   :D

I'll cut down on the oil next time - I did wind up adding some extra flour, but after I hit 3 tsps I decided to stop because I didn't want to go too far.  I had considered adding tomato chunks per your instructions, but oddly enough, the wife and I don't care for chunks and my wife always picks those off at Malnati's.  I can't explain it - whole tomato = bad, tomato sauce = good.  We puree are salsas too so they aren't chunky.

One other thought:  unless you have a lot of family or pizza eaters around, frequent use of a 14" pan leaves a lot of extra pizza (which may not be a bad thing).

LOL - Yeah...it's just me and the wife for now, but we do enjoy our pizza - I think we polished off about 2/3 of it last night.  I actually wanted to buy a 12" as well and use that for my initial run, but all Bed, Bath, and Beyond had were 14" and 9" Chicago Metallic, and 9" wasn't going to cut it for my appetite.  I will get a 12" from another store or on-line, but like the Semolina - I was so excited to get going on the recipe the other night, it was going to be as few stops as possible that night.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on February 04, 2009, 01:50:06 PM
I took a crack at the recipe again for a 14" (2" high) pan, 20% semolina, starting off with the formula:

Flour (100%):    428.3 g  |  15.11 oz | 0.94 lbs
Water (47%):    201.3 g  |  7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs
ADY (.7%):    3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    25.7 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    79.24 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.87 tbsp | 0.37 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Total (175.45%):   751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

My first run had what I thought was an over oily dough ball, so I was going to try and cut back on the oil.  I wound up mixing 1 oz of Olive oil and 2 oz of Corn oil in a cup, and mixed it in until I thought it was at its limit.  I wound up only adding 2 oz of the combined mixture, and the dough ball was still a little oily (I forget to add in a few tsp of extra flour before I bagged it and put it in the fridge).  However, I did up the melted/unsalted butter to 1 TBSP.

Some other items I was aiming to fix were cutting back a bit on the sauce, and using better sausage.  I used about all but 1/2 cup or so of the drained 6-in-1, but next time I may even use less.  I did use mild sausage, and fried it up a little before putting it on the pie because I prefer my sausage to be more on the well done side.  One other thing I forgot was to sift the flour.

I used 4.5 oz of sliced Mozz, 5.5 oz of sliced provolone, and about 6 oz of shredded Scamorza - because that is what I had in the fridge. 

As with the first, the pizza turned out great - but not as good as my first one.  The crust was a little bit crispier and wasn't as tasty.  The sausage was much better (duh).  The cheese seemed to have a better texture (I'm guessing because the Scamorza), but certain pockets seemed to lack some of the taste - I'm not sure if those pockets were more Mozz or Provo.

I'm planning on making a few pizzas for the in-laws on Saturday for lunch - so I think I'm going to go back to the original oil breakdown, even if it means an oily doughball.  I'm guessing the full amount of oil will make the crust a little more tender like the first.  I also will try one of them with 25% semolina.  I think I'm also going to use mostly Mozz on this one and see how it tastes.

My dilemma, however, is that my only option to make the dough is the night before around 7:00 pm, and I'm planning on having these for lunch the following day - which means I would be taking the dough out of the fridge around 10:00 am the following day.  Is this going to be long enough for the cold rise?  Should I leave it out longer (more than the 25 min) the night before?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on February 04, 2009, 01:53:21 PM
Ah Ha ,
Yes , I too said wow this is oily especially next to the Cracker 36% hydration I was making at the same time S my brain had a little bit of a tough time with it. But I trusted BTB and Loo and all the info here.
I found its the high % of oils that makes for the flakiness and taste of this great recipe. Along with a lot of whole milk mozz. cheese. I think on the throwdown Malnati states they use at least  pound of cheese on a 12"  I used a lot, and  scattering of the provolone like many of he pics here and loved it! Keep us popsted please.
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 05, 2009, 07:55:09 AM
I'm planning on making a few pizzas for the in-laws on Saturday for lunch (and) my only option to make the dough is the night before around 7:00 pm . . . having these for lunch the following day - which means I would be taking the dough out of the fridge around 10:00 am the following day.  Is this going to be long enough for the cold rise?  Should I leave it out longer (more than the 25 min) the night before?
If I understand this correctly, you will make the dough in the prior evening, leave it out to rise for approx. 25 minutes, punch it down and then put it in the refrigerator till the folowing morning when you will take it out of the refrigerator -- hopefully 1 or 2 hours -- prior to use.  If that's what you intend, that's perfectly fine. There are many schools of thought on this.  Some throw the dough ball straight into the refrigerator after making it.  Some let it rise once or twice and leave it out much longer before going into the refrigerator, and some would leave it out all night and not put it into the refrigerator.  When I have time, I like to let it rise a couple of times over a couple of hours, but it still turns out fine doing it otherwise also.  Some might say a 24 hour cold ferment is best, and maybe it technically is, but I don't know how much noticeably different the end product will be.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on February 05, 2009, 10:08:05 AM
Yes, that's basically it - I don't have time to give it 24 hours in the fridge, more like 14.  What about extended fridge time?  I could make the dough tonight and take it out Saturday morning - which would be around 38 hours in the fridge.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 05, 2009, 10:27:32 AM
38 hours in the refrigerator is fine.  Many would say that's preferable.  I've only done that several times and hadn't noticed any obvious improvement, but it certainly didn't hurt.  Once I did a 4 or 5 day refrigerated dough, but that didn't turn out well.             --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on February 05, 2009, 12:11:15 PM
BTB,
 He has 14 hrs, Fri. night 7 pm to Sat. noon Lunch, not the 38 hrs.? you mention. I think he could leave it out until bedtime  3-4 hrs and take it out around 9-10 am another 2-3 room rise. Longer warmer rise time, instead of all fridge will help fermentation take place. Do I have this right? Either way Marley with all the oils and stuff I do not feel it will make a measureable difference in the taste of your finished product. I would be willing to bet your guests will not know if it was 8hrs or 40 hr fermentation. I  a lot of doughs are made in less than 14 hrs.
Try it then next time do like 35 hours and see if your taste buds can tell  the difference
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on February 05, 2009, 02:56:51 PM
He has 14 hrs, Fri. night 7 pm to Sat. noon Lunch, not the 38 hrs.? you mention.

I had posted a follow-up asking if I could make the dough tonight and give it 38 hours in the fridge.   :)

I think I will make the dough tonight so I can hit Cheeseburger in Paradise Fri night and try to shake these Chicago weather blues!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on February 10, 2009, 11:34:42 AM
I tried this recipe again, but with a 25% semlina mixture - and both my wife and I liked it best of the ones I've made to date.  I also made a corn flour mix pie as well - that story, as well as some other notes about this pizza, are in the Deep Dish with Semolina and Corn Flour (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7676.0.html) post.

The family cut it up before I was able to take pictures of the pie in tact    ;D

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Lou Dog on February 16, 2009, 10:54:21 AM
First off, kudos to BTB and loowaters for perfecting this outstanding, spot-on recipe.  The addition of the semolina really does make a difference.  I just used a 1/2 cup for the 14" recipe, but I may up it to a whole cup next time.  Also, I added a little melted butter on top of the crust prior to cheesing it.  Adds a nice golden browness.  I'd love to try a version of Lou Malnati's "The Lou" pizza with spinach, mushrooms, sliced tomatoes & cheddar.  Any attempts yet by anyone?  Here's the sole pic I took:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on February 16, 2009, 03:24:00 PM
Lou Dog ,
Really nice! The boys will be proud! I tried this and loved it too, waiting to go for it again. I too may up the anty on the cornmeal next time.
GREAT WORK!
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 20, 2009, 11:47:59 AM
BTB or Anyone else that can help!!!
     Can i use a combination of olive oil and butter instead of corn oil?  If I use more oil or butter than you recommend what does that do to the dough? Can I use a bread maker to make the dough?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 20, 2009, 01:39:58 PM
Can I use a combination of olive oil and butter instead of corn oil?  I don't see why not, but I've never tried it as I prefer either corn oil or vegetable oil. There's only one way to tell .  .  .  experiment. Suggest using regular olive oil as opposed to the virgin variety as it imparts too much of an olive flavor, I think.  Also be cautious using too much butter and remember that since butter is approx. 16% water (I think I read that here somewhere) to cut back a little on the amount of water you use.  I've also learned to melt and cool the butter before adding it into the dough mixture, rather than churning in softened butter like I used to do.  (Churning in softened butter has a tendency to lead to overworking the dough, which is inadvisable.) 

If I use more oil or butter than you recommend what does that do to the dough?  Not sure on how to answer that.  This can become a fairly oily dough, which deep dish pizza often is, so just be prepared to deal with a very oily dough.  I just made a deep dish dough ball a few hours ago and added about a teaspoon and a half of melted and cooled butter along with 4% olive oil and 18% vegetable oil and it was a very oily dough ball, so I just kept adding flour a little more at a time until it formed a nice drier (a little more so) dough ball.  It rose nicely after 2 hours and I punched it down and looks like it will make for a really nice pizza.  While I like a little butter added to the mix, I don't like the taste of the  dough with too much butter.  But one has to try and compare to see for themselves.

Can I use a bread maker to make the dough?  I know many on this site do so, but I am not a big advocate of using the bread machine.  For one thing, you are likely to way overwork the dough resulting in finished pizza dough that is much too bread-like and not the biscuit-like texture that classic deep dish style is.  Kneading the dough for a very short period of time (est. 1 to 2 minutes) is preferred, as many have given testament to. 

You also asked about Malnati's.  Do not use corn flour, as they do not, but they do use a lot of corn oil in their dough, however     --BTB.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: koloa101 on February 27, 2009, 09:22:02 AM
hi,
can i substitute the ADY with IDY and use the same percentage? i plan on trying this recipe this weekend.

thank you!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on February 27, 2009, 03:11:51 PM
Koloa,
I think it takes less IDY, there are conversion tables somwhere for that or use the Dough caculator tool and check off ADY complete the formula then change that to IDY should change amounts for you? I am also having another go of it this weekend adding a bit more semolina this time. The corn oil is key also.  Are you doing sausage? spinach? pepperoni? and Remeber its ok if the dough seems oil, it is. Good luck ! Lets compare notes/pics on Monday ;D
Have Fun
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2009, 04:02:58 PM
can i substitute the ADY with IDY and use the same percentage? i plan on trying this recipe this weekend.

Technically, for whichever of the dough formulations you decide to use you should reduce the amount of ADY by about 25%, by weight, to get the amount of IDY to use. That is the number you would use in one of the dough calculating tools to adjust all of the ingredient quantities (the differences should be slight). The conversion table that John is referring to is at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: koloa101 on March 01, 2009, 10:12:29 PM
hey all,
here is my attempt at my first deep dish. i am glad my first try is consider a success thanks to this thread! very tasty pie and good enough to serve! i had some trouble at first shaping so the crust had too much of the dough; therefore a bit thin in the center. also, something in my ingredients contain way too much water. the first slice a bunch of water came leaking out. it may of been from the spinach/sausage/or redpack tomatoes?

i followed BTB's recipe posted on page 3 using all trumps and 25% semolina, also used the yeast chart Peter posted earlier to convert ADY to IDY. This pie was a sausage/green pepper/onion/spinach/mozzarella/whole peeled plum red pack tomatoes/ and a sprinkle of Parmigiano-Reggiano...it was awesome  :D


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on March 02, 2009, 07:47:55 AM
Sweet Koloa!
Did you use fresh Mozz.? and how much ? or just eye it. I think the spinach could have some moisture, but most I think is in the sauce. I drained the 6-in1s' for a few hours before using. Also when shaping I start with the ball in the middle press it out, wait a few minutes, press some more, then wait some more. Repeat this until I have the whole base of pan covered with an extra rim at the edge then press it up the side. Did you use anything on the bottom of your pan? Oil, crisco? I used a bit of crisco, but nothing on the sides to keep dough from pulling off.
Great job! BTB will be proud. Goes quick once cut eh! ;D
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: koloa101 on March 02, 2009, 10:21:18 AM
thanks JConk007.

for the bottom, i used a little 50/50 mixture of flour and semolina to coat the dough ball right before stretching out. i also buttered up the pan. for the sauce, i used a can of whole peeled plum tomatoes. i took out each tomatoe, deseeded and then blended with a little olive oil and spices. from the sounds of it, it seems that the sauce is the cause for the much water content. next time, ill drain more and give that a try. also, yes i did use fresh bella gioso mozzerella, about 1/2 a lb.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 02, 2009, 11:33:00 AM
I agree with John, Koloa, great deep dish first try.  Looks very tasty, indeed, altho I'm not much of a spinach fan.  Coating the pan with butter often leads to a darker outer color, but it looked fine to me as I like it a little browned with some burnt edges.  Very nice job with the tomatoes.  I loved the appearance and consistency of the tomatoes and the "dabs" of fresh mozzarella, altho I suspect that the great tasting fresh Bella Gioso is the primary source of excess water in the pizza.  While a little of such provides some very good tasting aspects to the pizza, none of the great classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias use "fresh" mozzarella on their products.  Not that it isn't good tasting, but just because of watering problems I think (and probably because of cost $$, too).  A half a pound may be too much (assuming in addition to other cheeses, whole milk, skimmed, etc.)  And tomatoes need to be drained somehat, also.  Just experiment a little and see how it goes next time.  But your did a terrific job on you "first."  (Some things are always nicer the "first time," eh.)         --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: koloa101 on March 11, 2009, 12:05:33 PM
wholly mackeral, what a difference in texture and taste with using AP flour. also, after i cooked the sausage, used a paper towel to absorb the excess moisture. i also used preshredded maggio mozzerella. i noticed the pie had much less runny water after the first slice. this is definitely my favorite pie now! i was running low on sauce too.



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on March 12, 2009, 02:57:45 PM
Koloa,
Really Nice ! Glad the AP worked out for you It appears you were  able to get a much thinner edge / rim side as well. What % semolina did you use on this one? or just change to AP? I am in Hilton Head SC so no posts or good pizza  :'( that I know of, a soggy NY style with bromated flour is all I can  find back to the fish I quess. There is a brick oven place Called Venti,  opening soon in a strip mall but it has been opening for over a year? glad I am not paying rent on that one!
keep em comin Koloa!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tsmys on March 12, 2009, 05:02:11 PM
I noticed much discussion of sausage on this thread so I thought I'd add this technique to the discussion.  This is a recipe I found on another site.  I haven't made the sausage from scratch yet but I have been nuking store brand Italian sausage as suggested and just slicing the "loafs" to place on the pizza.  You don't kneed to get the sausage cooked all the way through.  This method does a good job of de-greasing the sausage and slicing it gives it a very different texture.  I even tried mixing a 1# chub of Italian with a 1# chub of Hot breakfast sausage once and it was pretty tasty also.

Italian Sausage (Chicago Style)
By David Aleksy

4 lbs. pork shoulder (or pre-ground from the grocery in a pinch)
4½ tsp. salt
2 tsp. freshly ground black pepper
4½ tsp. fennel seed
Red pepper to taste, about 1½ tsp.
 

Grind pork and mix in spices. Do not saute the sausage, as it hardens it. Try forming the sausage into 6-inch oblong loaves and microwave them on the defrost setting until the pink barely disappears. Let the loaves cool, then break them into bite sized chunks. Freeze and use as you desire.
 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: foodblogger on March 13, 2009, 09:32:22 AM
I'm going to give this one a shot tonight.   :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 13, 2009, 10:24:48 AM
tsmys, while I've been tempted at times, I haven't tried to make my own sausage yet, and don't know if I ever will -- as I have so much "on my plate" already to try to accomplish -- but your recipe is very interesting.  Good Italian (or other) sausage is sometimes hard to come by, but around me I have some really great Italian deli's that make their own brand of homemade Italian sausages that are terrific. 

Also, for pizza making purposes, good sausage almost never needs to be degreased, like pepperoni does.  I almost never get a watery pizza that's attributed to the sausage.  Instead it is always either the tomatoes (not drained enough) or "fresh" wet mozzarella (sometimes even whole milk, but rarely) that is the chief culprit when a "too wet" or watery pizza is noticed IMO. 

Almost all Chicago pizzerias, especially the classic famous deep dish pizzerias (like Gino's East, for example), always (repeat . . . always) put the sausage on without pre-cooking it.  Overcooked sausage isn't very tasty -- at least to me -- and I've never made a pizza in which the sausage had turned out "undercooked."  To me, "nuking" sausage would not be an option.  And I know many people like it, but it would be a rare Chicago pizzeria that would have "hot"sausage as their mainstay sausage option.  But once in a while . . . it fits the bill.

Koloa, your latest pictures showed that you are getting really good at making deep dish pizzas.  AP flour is the way to go with deep dish, I think, but others have different tastes and have been successful at using other kinds, too.  I'm glad you pinched or crimped the edges or rim of the pizza as you did, as I think you'll enjoy the taste and texture of it even more.

Good luck guys . . . and/or gals . .  with your pizzamaking adventures.  You'll see how much fun it is.          --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tsmys on March 13, 2009, 04:14:24 PM
BTB,

I understand your feelings about sausage, I really do.  In fact, my next Chicago pizza will have a big ol' pattie of raw sausage on it!  I was just pointing out that there is more than one way to skin a dog, so to speak.  With all due respect I feel I must speak up and defend my friend the microwave.  Properly used it is an amazing tool.  Many people, (present company excluded, I'm sure), don't get it that the power on a microwave is adjustable.  It can be turned down to the point where it will gently heat or cook food without turning it into something inedible.  For example, when I precook sausage, I use power level 3 (your oven may differ). This results in a sausage pattie that's not hard and dry like sausage cooked in a pan but soft, moist, and delicious.  Unfortunately, BTB not all of us are as fortunate as you in having a reliable source for our sausage.  Due to location or cost, some of us just have to make do.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 13, 2009, 04:27:13 PM
I understand tymys.  We each got to do our thing.  Here's a sausage pattie I did for a pizza a while ago.  It cooks thoroughly at 450 degrees for 20 to 30 minutes on the pizza.  Good luck with your next.   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tsmys on March 13, 2009, 08:23:38 PM
BTB,

Thanks for the kind words :D  If the whole pattie works as well as I hope it will, I promise I'll not use any other technique!  I first came to this forum to learn how to make a pie as close to Gino's as I could.  I recently lost focus and tried to make a Lehmann NY pie, but I'm ready to get back on course.  It sounds like you have the Chicago pizza mastered.  I've been studying your thread and have learned a lot.  Thank you for helping everyone else!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 14, 2009, 10:11:21 AM
Sometimes I like a deep dish pizza with a sausage patty, like they generally make it at the famous Gino's East Pizzeria in Chicago.  But then at other times I like the sausage spread out a little.  Use of the patty is best for "sausage lovers" (which I often am).  It's purpose is to provide "a piece of sausage in every bite."  I hate ordering sausage on a pizza at a restaurant and then finding that there is only a little piece of sausage every 2 or 3 inches or so.  With so little sausage, you basically have a cheese pizza mostly and to me, that's generally not what I wanted. 
 
On the other hand, however, I like the style of deep dish pizza at the famous Lou Malnati's, too, and while many think they, too, put on a sausage patty whenever you order sausage as an ingredient, it is not so.  They put a lot of little pieces or chunks of sausage in the pan -- on top of the cheese -- and it often looks like a patty from some of the pictures on the TV shows, but it isn't.  Their "default" is to put a lot on, but you can request a lighter amount of sausage at the restaurant to match your tastes. 
 
I often like to leave gaps when applying the sausage in pieces or chunks on my homemade pizzas so that the cheese can bubble up to the top of the pizza and give it that special delectable effect, like I often find at Malnati's.  With a sausage patty, that generally does not occur, altho it had with some of my home made pizzas whenever I would put a few pieces of fresh mozzarella on top of the sausage patty. 

Some pictures of an earlier pizza I made below will hopefully show what I mean about the gaps and allowing room for the cheese, which is mostly below the sausage, to bubble up in places to the top of the pizza.  Best to experiment to see what you and your family and friends like the best.  In the end . . . it's all good.                            --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on March 14, 2009, 11:53:13 AM
I made a 25% semolina, 12" version once again.  Still using my 12" Lodge skillet. 

I noticed some difficulty working the oils into the dough after the initial rest, so I dumped everything into the food processor with the plastic dough blade and whizzed it just until the oil was incorporated.  The result seemed to be a much more "delicate" feeling dough.

This was also felt when patting it into the pan.  Definitely a lighter-feeling dough.

I topped the dough with 1/2 lb Kroger Private Selection mozzarella slices then 1/4 lb PS provolone slices.  On top of that went 2/3 lb of Sprouts hot chicken Italian sausage made into a 12" patty (raw), followed by slices of Ezzo pepperoni (nuked 22 seconds between paper towels to remove grease).  Then I added 10 ounces sliced mushrooms and 5 ounces frozen chopped spinach that I'd sauteed with minced garlic until almost completely dry andcooled.  Sauce was a 28 ounce can of Great Value crushed tomatoes that had been drained for 3 hours  mixed with Penzey's pizza seasoning, salt, garlic powder, white pepper, and a blop of honey, and finally a healthy sprinkle of grated parm.

450 for 1/2 hour with the pan on a preheated stone, let rest 15 minutes before cutting.

It was fabulous!!!  Thanks BTB!!!

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 14, 2009, 12:17:24 PM
Michelle, that looks really, really good.  I'm totally inexperienced with using an iron skillet, but many people here use one very successfully.  And I'm blown away at the use of a food processor.  I sometimes use mine for thin cracker crusts, but never for a Chicago Style deep dish as it would seem to overwork the dough.  But . . . your's looks fantastic!  And that's what counts.  Good to know as I may try that one day.  A 28 oz. can of  crushed tomatoes would normally seem almost twice as much as needed, but the pictures don't seem to show that.  The slices look super as is (love that cheese melting over the edge of the slice!).  Ingredients sounded good, except I'd leave the spinach to Popeye (altho my wife would probably like it).

Congratulations on your success.  Many more.                 --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on March 14, 2009, 12:37:05 PM
Thanks - The dough was barely processed after I'd done the regular mixing.  I was worried it would heat up and I didn't want that (or any significant gluten development) so I'd guess 10-15 seconds plus a couple of pulses.  It was definitely a risky test, but apparently one I got lucky with.

I did get a lot of liquid from the tomatoes when I drained them with the mesh sieve, and they dripped for almost the entire 3 hours of draining.  If I had to guess (because I didn't measure), I'd say it removed close to 3/4 cup of liquid.  Last time I'd used a 15 ounce can and it wasn't quite enough sauce to go around; I'd had to add a little extra plain tomato sauce.

I used the iron skillet because it's the closest thing I have to a deep dish pan, unless I want to make a 9" pie with one of my cake pans.... 

The best part is that with just 2 people, we have leftovers!

(oh, and the spinach was just because I'm in a freezer cleanout mode and it helped "balance" the use of pepperoni.....)

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on March 14, 2009, 07:44:14 PM
Very Very Very Nice Michelle!
I am back from Vacation eating a grandamas pie right now. So I tune in and see this great looking deep dish!!  Maybe spinach only for me too, or just all meat, a curious combo but we all have to clean the freezer sometime! That picture with the cheese WOW ! A real Contender here BTB ;)
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: foodblogger on March 15, 2009, 06:14:16 PM
I give the recipe an enthusiastic thumbs up.  This is going into my pizza stable.  I made the 20% dough.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: MarleyEds on March 16, 2009, 05:10:10 PM
Man, every time I read this thread, I get hungry   :chef:

Has anyone other than BTB tried a semolina percentage over 25% yet?  If so, what was your thoughts?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: parallei on March 22, 2009, 09:06:48 PM
Thanks to all of you for the great recipe.  I did 25% Semolina and didn't use any cream of tarter.  I have absolutely no bench mark to measure against, but I thought it was pretty darn good.  I did it at 450F for 23 minutes.  Next time I might try a lower temp for a bit longer time.  And maybe a bit more cheese... 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on March 23, 2009, 01:04:49 PM
Great Job! Looks delish! Nice change isn't it? and a great recipe BTB
How much cheese did you use? I use close to 1 1/2 pound of cheese, 1 +lb of sausage maybe some pepperoni,  and 1 , 28 oz can of 6-1 with a few tweaks and add ins when I make the 14 incher. A few calories for sure, but hey who's counting? and it tastes sooo good!
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jazzman on March 29, 2009, 04:38:30 PM
BTB and/or Pete-zza or others:

I have tried this recipe and it's awesome.  One question, though; when it was re-calculated for 15" (the size pan I have), somehow the salt got left out of the equation.  Being a newbie, and afraid I'll punch something wrong in the pizza calculator - can someone respond with the proper formula (including salt)?

Also, I bought a 14" square pan, but haven't tried it yet - how would one figure out the formula for a pan that size?

Thanks for helping a newbie - I am the new pizza king in my town!

Marty
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2009, 03:03:19 PM
Marty,

As the "custodian" of all of the Malnati/semolina deep-dish dough formulations, BTB may be the best one to address your request. However, in the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg63992.html#msg63992, for a 15" pan, the salt was left out intentionally, at the request of one of the members.

Since there are several recipes in this thread, can you tell us which specific recipe you want to modify to include salt if, upon reconsideration, that is what you would still like to do (the original recipe calls for 0.5% salt)? And also what amount of semolina if not otherwise stated?

With respect to your 14" square pan, you should be able to use the "Rectangular" feature of the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html. All the other entries would be the same as with a round pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jazzman on March 30, 2009, 03:42:02 PM
Pete,

Thanks for the quick reply.  Using your formula (the one you did for someone on page 2), and adding in .5% salt, as in the original, I used the dough calculator, and this is what I got for a 14" square pan:

Flour (100%):    601.02 g  |  21.2 oz | 1.32 lbs
Water (47%):    282.48 g  |  9.96 oz | 0.62 lbs
ADY (.7%):    4.21 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
Salt (.5%):    3.01 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    36.06 g | 1.27 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.01 tsp | 2.67 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    111.19 g | 3.92 oz | 0.25 lbs | 8.24 tbsp | 0.51 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    6.01 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    9.02 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.26 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    4.51 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Total (175.95%):   1057.49 g | 37.3 oz | 2.33 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Seems about right, doesn't it?  Thanks for your help.

Marty
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on March 30, 2009, 04:04:38 PM
Marty,

For the 15" round pan, the modified dough formulation with 0.50% salt is:

All-purpose/Semolina Flour Blend (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.95%):
481.67 g  |  16.99 oz | 1.06 lbs
226.39 g  |  7.99 oz | 0.5 lbs
3.37 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
2.41 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
28.9 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.42 tsp | 2.14 tbsp
89.11 g | 3.14 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.6 tbsp | 0.41 cups
4.82 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
7.23 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.81 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
847.5 g | 29.89 oz | 1.87 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Of course, you will have to recalculate the apportionment of the flour blend between all-purpose flour and semolina flour.

Your calculations are correct for the 14" square pan if it is 2" deep and you push the dough up the sides of the pan for the full 2" depth. That is one-half inch more than for the 15" pan. If you use 1 1/2" for your 14" square pan also, the dough formulation looks like this:

All-purpose/Semolina Flour Blend(100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.95%):
543.78 g  |  19.18 oz | 1.2 lbs
255.58 g  |  9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs
3.81 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
32.63 g | 1.15 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.25 tsp | 2.42 tbsp
100.6 g | 3.55 oz | 0.22 lbs | 7.45 tbsp | 0.47 cups
5.44 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
8.16 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.05 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
4.08 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
956.78 g | 33.75 oz | 2.11 lbs | TF = 0.126875

In both examples, I used a thickness factor of 0.125 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.

Peter



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 31, 2009, 08:36:50 AM
Marty, welcome to the site.  You'll have a lot of fun dreaming up pizza recipes to make your friends and family happy and anxious for more good pizzas.  You'll find that you can vary a lot of things to reflect your tastes and likes.  Sometimes I put salt in the recipe and many times I don't.  As of late, I've deleted the cream of tartar from this recipe, which has always just been optional and not essential, and add instead a half to whole teaspoon of baker's non-fat dry milk, which should also be considered optional.  As for the proportion of semolina flour, I'd suggest first trying 15 to 20% of the total amount of flour.                  --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2009, 09:13:03 PM
I made a 10" using my own Malnati's clone recipe swapping out 20% of the flour for semolina.

Flour                  203g
Semolina              51
Water (47%)       119
Corn Oil (19%)      48
Olive Oil (4%)       10
ADY (1%)              3

This was a same day dough with the first rise in the oven for 1 1/2 hours with the light on and some hot water for humidity.  The second rise was a counter rise for two hours.  Made it half sausage/half pepperoni.  Greased bottom of pan with Crisco and baked at 475* for 20 minutes turning 180* half way through.

Earlier in this thread, loowaters posted a modification of one of his Malnati deep-dish clone dough formulations (originally presented at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.msg33948.html#msg33948) to adopt BTB's idea of including semolina flour as part of the overall flour blend. What interested me is the fact that Loo made and used the dough within only a few hours--specifically, in less than four hours--which appears not to be all that common with Chicago deep-dish doughs. For those who wish to replicate Loo's "emergency" deep-dish dough with the semolina flour, I used the information that Loo provided at Reply 62 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg64528.html#msg64528) and the following Reply 63 to come up with the following dough formulation using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html:

All-purpose/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (1%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Corn Oil (19%):
Total (171%):
254 g  |  8.96 oz | 0.56 lbs
119.38 g  |  4.21 oz | 0.26 lbs
2.54 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
10.16 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.26 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
48.26 g | 1.7 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.72 tsp | 3.57 tbsp
434.35 g | 15.32 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = 0.130048
* The flour blend comprises 203 grams of all-purpose flour and 51 grams of semolina flour
Note: The formulation is based on using a 10" straight-sided pan with the dough being pushed up to 1 1/2" of the total pan depth; there is no bowl residue compensation

Using the baker's percents given above along with the thickness factor of 0.130048, one should be able to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool to come up with dough formulations for any size pans, whether straight-sided or sloping-sided. For example, for a 12" straight-sided pan with the dough pushed up 1 1/2" of the pan's depth, the dough formulation would look like this:

All-purpose/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (1%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Corn Oil (19%):
Total (171%):
345.45 g  |  12.19 oz | 0.76 lbs
162.36 g  |  5.73 oz | 0.36 lbs
3.45 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
13.82 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.07 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
65.63 g | 2.32 oz | 0.14 lbs | 4.86 tbsp | 0.3 cups
590.71 g | 20.84 oz | 1.3 lbs | TF = 0.130048
* The flour blend comprises 276.36 grams of all-purpose flour and 69.09 grams of semolina flour
Note: The formulation is based on using a 12" straight-sided pan with the dough being pushed up to 1 1/2" of the total pan depth; there is no bowl residue compensation

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on April 08, 2009, 08:56:12 PM
I need the correct calculations for a 15 inch . There are different ones on this board for a 15 inch.
Please help!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on April 09, 2009, 06:10:13 AM
I need the correct calculations for a 15 inch . There are different ones on this board for a 15 inch.
Please help!!

Try the tool.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on April 09, 2009, 02:57:35 PM
Thanks . Im new at this , so to be clear 8ozs of flour = 1 cup correct?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2009, 03:37:32 PM
Thanks . Im new at this , so to be clear 8ozs of flour = 1 cup correct?

I am not sure what you mean by that conversion, but you don't need it to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool. If you are referring to a conversion of eight ounces of flour by weight to a volume, it does not equal a cup. Which recipe in particular are you trying to convert to a 15" pan?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vonBanditos on April 13, 2009, 01:13:24 PM
I'm going to pipe back in this thread and say that this recipe has made me quite popular with my family and friends. Even though I'm too thick to properly weigh/measure oil, my pizza still turns out incredibly well. I would feel comfortable serving this in a restaurant.

Thanks BTB for the great recipe and thanks also to Pete-zza for tirelessly answering questions!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on April 24, 2009, 02:03:13 PM
Pete-zza
        I followed your recipe (tastes great by the way)  but I dont have a scale.
How many tablespoons of flour or cups of flour and semolina would it come out to ? 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on April 24, 2009, 03:34:42 PM
Pete-zza
        I followed your recipe (tastes great by the way)  but I dont have a scale.
How many tablespoons of flour or cups of flour and semolina would it come out to ? 

jimmy33,

Is the recipe you want to use the first one at Reply 155 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg71513.html#msg71513 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg71513.html#msg71513) ? If so, which brand of all-purpose flour and which brand of semolina flour will you be using? I use member November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/) to do the kinds of conversions you requested. If the brand and type of flour you will be using is not in the pull-down menu, I will not be able to give you accurate conversion data.

Also, what amount of semolina flour do you want to use? I have seen 15%, 20% and 25%.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on April 28, 2009, 11:46:00 AM
Hey pete-zza
     Yes it is the 155 reply. I  use kaap flour and bob's red mill semolina. 25 % semolina is what I use.
                                   Thanks again for your help, jimmy
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2009, 12:45:57 PM
Hey pete-zza
     Yes it is the 155 reply. I  use kaap flour and bob's red mill semolina. 25 % semolina is what I use.
                                   Thanks again for your help, jimmy

jimmy,

For purposes of recapitulation, here is the dough formulation and particulars:

KAAP All-purpose/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.95%):
481.67 g  |  16.99 oz | 1.06 lbs
226.39 g  |  7.99 oz | 0.5 lbs
3.37 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.89 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
2.41 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
28.9 g | 1.02 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.42 tsp | 2.14 tbsp
89.11 g | 3.14 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.6 tbsp | 0.41 cups
4.82 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
7.23 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.81 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.2 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
847.5 g | 29.89 oz | 1.87 lbs | TF = 0.126875
Note: For 15" pan with a depth of 2" and the dough rising 1 1/2" up the sides of the pan; nominal thickness factor = 0.125; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%
* The blend comprises 361.25 g./12.74 oz. KAAP and 120.42 g./4.25 oz. Bob's Red Mill semolina flour

To do the flour conversion, I used member's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.) I selected the KAAP from the Substance pull-down menu, and Textbook from the Measurement Method pull-down menu. With these selections, the 361.25 g./12.74 oz. of KAAP translates to 2 c. + ½ c. + ⅓ c. + 3 t. In measuring out the flour, it is important that you use the Textbook method of flour measurement as that term is defined in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator. Otherwise, your results are likely to be off.

The 120.42 g./4.25 oz. of Bob's Red Mill semolina flour converts to a bit over 11.5 tablespoons (a bit less than 3/4 cup). For this conversion, I used a conversion factor of 0.1227219 oz. semolina flour/teaspoon.

Again using the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator, the 226.39 g./7.99 oz. of water in the above table converts to ½ c. + ⅓ c. + 3 T.

Since it is easy to make mistakes in calculations of the above nature, you may want to double check my math and conversions. That will also allow you to learn how to use the tool yourself the next time.

Peter

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on April 29, 2009, 11:46:50 AM
Thanks Pete-zza
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 05, 2009, 10:55:22 AM
I made a variation on this pizza yesterday.  I used 80% King Arthur all-purpose flour and instead of just 20% semolina, I used 10% semolina and 10% rice flour.  And also added some more butter to the mixture.  The result was fantastic . . . a tasty, flavorful pizza with a little more crispy bite to the crust.  Using the Deep-Dish Pizza Dough Calculator on this website, the dough formulation or recipe for a 12" deep dish pizza with a 2" straight-sided deep dish pan, with the crust going up approx. 1.5 inches up the side, a 1.5% bowl residue and a TF (thickness factor) of .125, was as follows:

Flour Blend *(100%):  333.41 g  |  11.76 oz | 0.74 lbs
Water (47%):  156.7 g  |  5.53 oz | 0.35 lbs
ADY (.85%):  2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.45 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  40.01 g | 1.41 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.89 tsp | 2.96 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.23 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  3.33 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Total (172.85%): 576.3 g | 20.33 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.126875
   *Note:  The amount of all-purpose flour is 266.73 g./9.41 oz. (80%), the amount of semolina is
                33.34 g./1.17 oz. (10%), and the amount of rice flour is 33.34 g/1.17 oz (10%); the total
                amount of oil is approx. 60 g. (18%) ; plus 1.4 Tbsp of melted and cooled butter (6%)
   **1 tsp of Baker's NFDM was added, which is optional but highly recommended.  It's addition is
                insignificant to the weight of the dough ball.

I sifted the all purpose flour into a bowl, added the other dry ingredients (which included 10% semolina and 10% rice flour), added the "proofed" yeast (proofed in approx. 105 degree F water for about 10 min.) as well as the rest of the water, oil and melted butter and mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand for about a minute.  I then covered the bowl and let it puff up in a slightly warmed oven (90 degrees F) for approx. 60 minutes.  After an hour, I punched the risen dough ball down, covered and let it sit on the counter for about 4 or 5 hours, punching it down an additional time.  I then pressed the dough out by hand on the counter to a circular shape to about a 13" plus diameter, rolled it up and gently put it into a pan that I previously put about a tablespoon or two of olive oil on the bottom.  It's important -- I think -- to press or crimp the edges or lip of the pizza crust tightly to the edge of the pan to get that nicer thin and crispy edge or lip to the pizza as opposed to the thick or fatter lip or rim that's not that common at most of the Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias. 

In trying to clean out my refrigerator, I used up about all the remaining cheese that I had in it, which include first some slices of mozzarella, then a lot of scamorza that I shredded from a block that I had left, and then a few pieces of provolone, too.  I probably put a little too much cheese on which created a slight problem for me later when I took the pizza out of the pan, but a nice cheesy pizza can make for a good meal.  On top of the cheese I put some great uncooked sausage from my favorite local Italian deli.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 05, 2009, 10:57:57 AM
Since I ran out of my favorite 6 in 1 sauce, I instead used for the first time a can of Tuttorasso crushed tomatoes that I found at my local grocer and which the American Test Kitchen gave their highest rating on.  It was too thin for my liking, however, so I added also a can of Muir Glen diced tomatoes (drained) to the 10 or 11 ounces of the thin Tuttorasso sauce, along with some Penzey pizza spices, white pepper, brown sugar, oregano, basil, minced garlic, a dash of honey, garlic salt and some shredded artisan parmesan.  I cooked the pizza at 450 degrees F for about 25 minutes on the bottom rack of my oven, turning 180 degrees midway through the cycle.   Near the end of the baking period I added some pepperoni on top of half of the pizza, which I'm finding to be the best way to do the pepperoni.  After baking, I had a small problem getting the pizza out of the pan (due to my inattention to what I was doing) and the pizza broke up a little on getting it onto the cutting board, as well as the cheese sliding some of the ingredients over to one side.  But while it looked a little sloppy because of my mishandling of it out of the pan, it tasted absolutely fantastic and really hit the spot.  It got one of the higher ratings in my household.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 05, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
My wife, son and I quickly devoured the very tasty pizza and I quickly took a picture of the last piece before it too got consumed.  I highly recommend trying this with a little amount of rice flour added as indicated above.  It really gives the deep dish pizza crust a great texture, taste and flavor.   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 19, 2009, 01:51:28 AM
does the rice flour add a bubbly airy-ness to your crust?  some of your pics looks like it does.   that "airy-ness" reminds me a bit of how aurelios as a thin crust is different...you see any connection there? does maybe aurelios use some rice flour?  great great looking pie by the way!!! thanks!

-=terry
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on June 20, 2009, 12:31:52 PM
Terry, I don't know about the bubbly air-ness, but the rice flour seems to add a lightness to the character of the crust that I find very desirable.  Several people with whom I recommended just trying some added rice flour have raved about it and would not return to making a pizza crust without a small amount of rice flour added to the crust mixture.  It is definitely worth experimenting with to see if it fits your's and your friends' and families' bill or taste. 

As you know, I am fairly familiar with Aurelio's and since I started making homemade pizzas, I've often wondered if they too didn't put a small amount of rice flour in their crust formulation.  While I suspect so, I cannot be certain that's the case.

Oh, BTW, since I'm back in the midwest for the summer, I had some DiMaggio's pizza the other night from up in Hagar Shore, MI that I know you're familiar with and it was great.                                   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 21, 2009, 02:02:25 AM
Thank for the great advice BTB!  oh man!!! i am jealous of you!! My parents have been getting dimaggios on fridays now that theyre back up there for the summer.....ive been so jealous!  i may be there in august or early sept. and after grabbing an aurelios in oakbrook on the way up to michigan from ohare, dimaggios is on the must do list! 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: foodblogger on June 29, 2009, 02:00:09 PM
The other thing you can do with the flour mix in this recipe is to substitute finely ground corn flour for a portion of the semolina.  I've made a couple of the part semolina/part cornmeal pies and they were mind-blowingly good.  I've got one on the counter rising right now. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mad_Ernie on June 29, 2009, 02:11:33 PM
I tried a BTB Chicago deep dish style pizza this past weekend using 70% all purpose flour, 20% semolina, and 10% rice flour.  I have to say in this particular experiment, I was not happy with the results.  The taste of the rice flour came through too much in the crust and I didn't care for it.  I still like the semolina, but I will probably not use the rice flour in my deep-dish pies in the future.  I have tried (at BTB's suggestion) rice flour in other dough recipes, such as a thin American-style dough recipe and found it to work just fine.  I usually use between 10-20% rice flour if I use it.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 14, 2009, 10:10:42 AM
I made two 9" deep dish pizzas recently -- the first with 80% white flour and 20% semolina flour, and the second with 80% white flour, 12% semolina flour and 8% rice flour.  The result was that both pizzas were terrific and absolutely delicious. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 14, 2009, 10:14:15 AM
Similar to a number of pizzamaking tests that I did with this in the recent past, among my taste testers there was a slight preference for the version with a little rice flour.  I, too, thought both were great, but thought the little extra crunch that the rice flour gave to the crust was a feature that I and others have found a desirable characteristic to the pie.  To both pizzas I added 1 tsp. of baker's NFDM, which I find myself doing almost regularly to all styles of thin and thick pizzas these days.  And since I ran out of my King Arthur AP flour, I had to use GM's Better for Bread flour with these pizzas.  While it turned out with a slightly greater "puff" to the crust, the pizzas turned out seemingly just as great anyway. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 14, 2009, 10:18:46 AM
And to the 6 in 1 sauce that I drained for about 20 minutes, I added some white and black pepper, salt, minced garlic, Penzey pizza spices, some great diced tomatoes from Muir Glen, a dash of light brown sugar as well as honey, and sprinkled some Penzey basil and oregano and some grated parmesan cheese on top.  I find myself more and more just putting on "pinches" of the spices as they can be overpowering if put on too heavily.  The picture of the underneath portion of the crust shows the "perfect" degree of browness in my estimation.  And the last piece shown below was quickly gobbled up after the picture was taken.  All in all, some great pizza eating opportunities.                     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on November 15, 2009, 08:30:03 PM
Delicious looking BTB!!!
Winter arounfd the corner so I will ba back at the deep dish I will add that rice flour and post results
Kepp em coming PLEASE!!!
JOhn
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Matthew on November 17, 2009, 11:03:25 AM
Delicious looking BTB!!!
Winter arounfd the corner so I will ba back at the deep dish I will add that rice flour and post results
Kepp em coming PLEASE!!!
JOhn


I'm right behind you.  I hate the winter!  I'm going to venture into the world of deep dish this winter which up until now has been unchartered waters for me.  I'm going to give it a shot using my starter which I don't believe anyone has tried yet.

Matt
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2009, 11:15:12 AM
I'm going to venture into the world of deep dish this winter which up until now has been unchartered waters for me.  I'm going to give it a shot using my starter which I don't believe anyone has tried yet.

Matt,

You might get some ideas or insights on how to use a natural starter/preferment with BTB's deep-dish dough formulation at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.msg14755.html#msg14755 and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on November 18, 2009, 11:05:41 AM
Matthew I can tell you 1st hand if you use the BTB recipe it will come out great! get the right pan and add the 20% semolina as I did here YUMMY http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8094.0.html
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ThunderStik on November 18, 2009, 12:00:50 PM
Man you guys with your deep dish. I gave Petes recipe a shot a short time ago and had great sucess. I guess I will have to have another round of DD. Those pies look GOOD!

It doesnt help the fact that im hungry right now.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Matthew on November 18, 2009, 05:39:19 PM
Matthew I can tell you 1st hand if you use the BTB recipe it will come out great! get the right pan and add the 20% semolina as I did here YUMMY http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8094.0.html
John

On my to try list for sure.  I have quite a bit of Caputo left over from this summer so I'm going to give Peter's Neapolitan Deep Dish a try this weekend.

Matt
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Zoey Girl on December 16, 2009, 09:23:07 PM
Has anyone converted this recipe to cups, tsp's, etc?  I am new at this and don't konw how to convert this easily.

Any help would be appreciated  :P
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 19, 2009, 12:35:19 PM
Your seemingly simple question is not so simple to quickly answer.  What size are you talking about (6", 9", 12", 14" etc, etc)?  What kind or which recipe?  Suggest you spend a little time studying the weight tools and you'll find it real simple and easy to use.  Otherwise we have to guess about a dozen or more different variables as to what you may mean or be talking about.  Please check out Peter's response above at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg73191.html#msg73191 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg73191.html#msg73191).  With using weight measures and the tools provided in this site, you can convert a recipe for a 9" pie to a 14" pie or any other size in seconds.  It is very easy.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: flavorguy on January 12, 2010, 12:55:28 PM
From post # 19:


At the same time I made a 9" pie using a little more semolina flour (25%) to see what affect that would have.
Similar to the above, I used King Arthur AP and Bob's Red Mill semolina with a 1.5% bowl residue, and the formulation was as follows:
 
Flour *** (100%):  133.19 g  |  4.69 oz | 0.29 lbs
Water (47%):  83.46 g  |  2.94 oz | 0.18 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  10.65 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  32.85 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  1.78 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Semolina (25%):  44.39 g | 1.57 oz | 0.1 lbs | 4.25 tbsp | 0.27 cups
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Total (200.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
              ***Again factoring out the amount of semolina flour from the AP flour.
 
The process was similar to that indicated above, except I withheld any salt and put in a smidgeon of sugar and cream of tartar to see what affect that might have. The ingredients were the same as indicated for the 12" pie mentioned above.

I followed this recipe using the gram weights provided for a 9" pan. I weighed my dough ball after completion and it weighed 305 grams. The crust with my short weight ball however was absolutely perfect after baking...

Dumb question:  If you total the above recipe, the gram weight comes out to 311.55... did I miss something?

Flavorguy (not to be confused with Flavorman)... ???
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on January 12, 2010, 04:10:13 PM
It looks like you are correct, flavorguy, the total does add up to over 311g.  Look at the semolina, I think it's calculated twice but BTB notes that.  The six gram difference (less than 2%) you came up short can be attributed most likely to bowl residue but possibly a combination of bowl residue and slightly off weights (rounded down, etc.).

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: flavorguy on January 12, 2010, 06:45:37 PM
Well if I'm off or not, the 25% semolina recipe is absolutely killer...

Great recipe BTB...

Now if only the Eagles can win a Super Bowl, I can die a fruitful and fulfilling life... (I'm shallow I know, but cut us Phila guys some slack...)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 13, 2010, 11:00:26 AM
I had a hard time at first recalling the methodology used in calculating the formulations in the early days of this thread.  I was initially blaming the incorrect total ingredient weight on a bad bottle of scotch that I had back then, but then I figured out how it got to be that way. 

When first exploring the use of semolina in the recipe, since the deep-dish dough calculation tool had a specific box in it in which to put a figure in for the proportion of Semolina, I added the proportion directly into the tool.  In several correspondences with Peter, he rightfully pointed out to me that by adding a figure for semolina into the tool itself, it will not really be accurate or reflective of the "proportion" that one may want (i.e. a proportion of the flour . . . which all non-flour ingredients are).

For instance, and as was done in Reply #19, I wanted a recipe with 25% semolina and I put that figure into the tool and it gave me approx. 44.4 grams of semolina.  Instead of subtracting it from the flour apart from the tool, it mistakenly got added.  Instead of 355.95 grams of ingredients in total, it should have been 311.55 grams or a difference of 44.4 grams. 

The earlier recipes are still fine and give great results, but the total ingredient weight should be ignored in a few of the earlier ones in the thread.  BUT in using the tool as I did, the 44.4 grams of semolina does not really amount to 25% of the weight of the flour.  The amount of flour in this recipe was 133.19 grams and 25% of that would be approx. 33.3 grams, not 44.4 grams.  (And the amount of all-purpose flour would then be 109.89 grams)  In other words, one needs to modify somewhat that part of the all-purpose flour that will be replaced by semolina flour.  See Reply #34 below.  You'll note that I modified the methodology in subsequent recipes, altho the older ones would give great results, too.

I'm not sure if this clarifies or confuses things more.  In any event, I'm glad to hear of your positive experience with using semolina in deep dish pizza.  Sorry about the Eagles, tho.
                                                                           --BTB           :'(
Afterthought:  Some of the figures in the 3rd and 4th paragraph above are not accurate.  I explain further in another response below.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2010, 11:12:28 AM
BTB,

As a point of clarification, how far up the sides of your pans (2" deep) do you normally push the dough? In an earlier post in this thread I assumed that it was 1.5". This is only an issue when one uses the thickness factor option in the deep-dish dough calculating tool. I believe you have been using a nominal thickness factor of 0.125 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 13, 2010, 12:40:11 PM
Peter, yes to all.  I generally always go up 1.5" up the side of the pan, use a 0.125 thickness factor, and 1.5% bowl residue.  I'm uncertain what you mean by "this is only an issue when one uses the thickness factor option in the deep-dish dough calculating tool."                                 --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2010, 04:06:43 PM
I'm uncertain what you mean by "this is only an issue when one uses the thickness factor option in the deep-dish dough calculating tool."                             

BTB,

Maybe a simple example will clarify my statement. Let us assume that you want to make a deep-dish pizza dough using a straight-sided 9" x 2" deep pan, with the dough pushed up the sides by 1 1/2", and using the baker's percents recited in Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg62317.html#msg62317 and a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%. Let's further assume that the flour and semolina are treated as a blend, with 25% of the blend being semolina, so that the baker's percents are correct (which they are in Reply 19 if we treat the King Arthur all-purpose flour and the Bob's Red Mill semolina as a blend). Entering all of the above values into the the deep-dish dough calculating tool using the thickness factor option, we get the following:

KAAP/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.45%):
202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
* The KAAP/Semolina flour blend comprises 152.16 grams (5.37 ounces) of KAAP and 50.72 grams (1.79 ounces) of semolina
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.125; pan is straight-sided and 9" in diameter; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you can see, the total dough weight is 355.95 grams (12.56 ounces), not 311.55 grams (10.99 ounces). However, for the sake of our analysis, let us assume that you meant the total dough weight to be 311.55 grams after all. Using the dough weight option of the deep-dish dough calculating tool, and again treating the KAAP and semolina as a blend, we get the following:

KAAP/Semolina Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.45%):
177.57 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
83.46 g  |  2.94 oz | 0.18 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
10.65 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
32.85 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
1.78 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
311.55 g | 10.99 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = N/A
* The KAAP/Semolina flour blend comprises 133.18 grams (4.70 ounces) of KAAP and 44.39 grams (1.57 ounces) of semolina

As you can see, the second dough formulation calls for less dough than the first dough formulation posted above. If I decided to use the second example to calculate the corresponding thickness factor, it would be 0.111045 (I did this by plugging in different values in the thickness factor box until the dough formulations were as close to each other as possible), and the dough formulation produced by the deep-dish dough calculating tool would look like this:

KAAP/Semolina Flour Blend (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (0.75%):
Total (175.45%):
177.57 g  |  6.26 oz | 0.39 lbs
83.46 g  |  2.94 oz | 0.18 lbs
1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
10.65 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.37 tsp | 0.79 tbsp
32.85 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.3 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
1.78 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
2.66 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.67 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
1.33 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
311.54 g | 10.99 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = 0.111045
Note: Pan is straight-sided and 9" in diameter; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"

As the last dough formulation demonstrates, the crust would be somewhat thinner than the first example. In fact, the dough weight difference is a bit over 1.5 ounces. However, since there is always some variations in the way that people make their doughs and fit them to their pans, the results aren't likely to vary in a dramatic way. For example, people rarely push the dough up the sides of the pan by exactly 1 1/2". Also, some people press the dough into the pan by hand and others use a rolling pin to roll out the dough before fitting into the pan. Actual final dough weights can also vary because of normal variations among the different ingredients and different brands of the ingredients. flavorguy demonstrated that a version of your recipe using a lower thickness factor produces a very acceptable end result. Maybe next time he can try the first dough formulation posted above in this post and compare the results with the results he reported on earlier.

Peter




Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 14, 2010, 09:51:51 AM
I further studied what I did in connection with the crust formulation in Reply #19 above.   Today --  after learning much here on this site -- I would figure out the recipe differently and would not enter a semolina figure in the deep dish calculation tool anymore as I did back then.  However, that earlier formulation still works fine and gives great results as the pictures show.  Peter, you are right on your calculations.  My figures just yesterday in Reply #130 above were a little mixed up (bad memory or damn scotch) and I'll further revise them herein.

What I did back 18 to 24 months ago was enter 25% semolina in the deep dish calculation tool itself, which in that formulation resulted in the all-purpose flour weight of 177.58 grams and semolina flour weight of 44.39 grams.  I misinterpreted Peter's comments back then and subtracted the 44.39 grams from the 177.58 grams resulting in the reported 133.19 grams, which provided for a fine pizza but resulted in the proportions being way out of wack.  Further, by entering 25% (or any other figure) in the deep dish calculation tool itself, Peter you indicated that that results in changing the weights and throwing the other ingredients out of wack, too.  Blending of the flour "outside" the tool (meaning calculating outside the tool) seemed to show a more preferable way to go and does not result in changing the weights of all the other ingredients.  At least that's one point of view.

So, the way I do this exact formulation today -- and I think in all subsequent formulations in the thread -- is as Peter indicated in his first example.  For a 9" diameter deep dish pizza, with the dough pushed up approx. 1.5" up side of pan, a TF of 0.125, and bowl residue of 1.5%, the tool results would show:

Flour (100%):  202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (47%):  95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (175.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

After getting this result with the deep dish calculation tool, if one wanted a proportion of the flour to be 25% semolina flour, you would do the calculation thusly:  202.88 grams of flour, 25% = 50.72 grams (1.79 ounces) and the 75% remainder would be 152.16 grams (5.37 ounces) of AP flour.  And by doing it this way, none of the weights of the other ingredients changes, making it -- believe it or not -- less complicated if you wanted to change the proportion of semolina or other flours in subsequent recipes.

Parenthetically, I no longer use cream of tartar as an ingredient as in this formulation.  Such was noted elsewhere as a dough conditioner and reportedly used in some of the Chicago pizzerias (like Gino's East).  After some experience with it, I couldn't see the value of its addition.  I occasionally add a half tsp of Baker's NFDM instead, but that is also not essential.

All this is making me hungry.  I think I'll head for the kitchen . . . .                      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2010, 11:01:26 AM
BTB,

The approach you discussed makes sense most when you are using a blend of flours, like all-purpose flour and semolina, that are all subject to the hydration process. To show you (and other members) how a dough formulation can paint a distorted picture if an ingredient like the semolina is treated separately in the dough formulation, that is, not treated together with the all-purpose flour, note the baker's percents in this example, using the ingredients and quantities we have been discussing:

Flour (100%):
Water (62.6643%):
ADY (0.93322%):
Olive Oil (7.99815%):
Corn Oil (24.6648%):
Butter/Margarine (1.33412%):
Sugar (1.99789%):
Semolina (33.3333%):
Cream of Tartar (0.99894%):
Total (233.92472%):
152.16 g  |  5.37 oz | 0.34 lbs
95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.7 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
50.72 g | 1.79 oz | 0.11 lbs | 4.86 tbsp | 0.3 cups
1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

As you can see, the individual ingredient weights and the final dough weight are all correct but the baker's percents, especially for the hydration and for the two oils, and even for the semolina, do not paint an accurate picture of what is really happening.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on January 18, 2010, 01:28:38 PM
I tried this recipe yesterday after an attempt a week ago w/o semolina.

A few issues:

1. I made the crust & refrigerated in a bag for 4 days. i was planning on 1 day, but something came up. Is that too long? Would that kill my yeast?

2. Did not withold 1/4 cup of AP & just mixed all the flour & oils at the same time....is that a big deal?

3. Used a spring form 11" dark no stick for pan. Is that OK?

4. I was very worried about my sausage being fully cooked. I cooked on a Big Green Egg on a pizza stone for about 35 min @ 450-500F. At that point a dig thermometer read about 150F in center. I put in 350F oven for about another 10 min. I was afraid to burn the crust in an effort to cook the sausage. should this be a concern? should i cook on a rack instead of a stone?

5. On a side note. What's the differance between "active dry yeast" & "rapid rise highly active yeast"? (Fleischmann's) can i interchange?

Attached is a pic (hopefully if attaches) of previous pie w/o semolina. last nights was much better tasting...but the crust looked very similiar. That one i pre cooked the sausage though.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 19, 2010, 06:30:41 PM
Welcome firefly to the website.  Just some quick thoughts.  I would never use dough refrigerated for 4 days.  It doesn't seem to work right, at least for me.  But others may have some different thoughts.  Not withholding the quarter cup of AP is no big deal.  I often forget and don't think the difference is worth worrying about.  I don't favor springform pans, but some do.  But see tikidoc's story at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9767.msg85101.html#msg85101 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9767.msg85101.html#msg85101)
(" . . . the two piece pan leaked out some of the oil in the bottom of the pan, creating a lot of smoke.  My range hood is pretty good so it was not a terribly big deal, but I need to get some real deep dish pans." )

I have no idea what you mean by saying that you cooked "on a Big Green Egg."  I always -- like all the major deep dish pizzerias in Chicago -- bake the pizza with uncooked sausage and never had a problem.  And those pizzerias usually cook from 425 to 475 degrees F.  Pre-cooked sausage doesn't taste very good to me and others when it gets extremely overcooked.  But some still have a preference to cook the sausage first.  That's a personal preference, I guess.  I'll let someone else explain the difference between ADY and IDY.  You can interchange but at a little different amounts.  I have a big preference for, and only use, ADY. 

The pictures still looked pretty good.  You'll get it down pat in no time.                     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 19, 2010, 06:42:21 PM
I'll let someone else explain the difference between ADY and IDY.  You can interchange but at a little different amounts.  I have a big preference for, and only use, ADY. 

The easiest way to convert from one form of yeast to another is to use the yeast conversion table at http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on January 19, 2010, 08:05:52 PM
Thanks, a Big Green Egg" is a komodo style smoker/grill capable of 1000Ftemps. Works a lot like a coal fired pizza oven, I'm told. The 4 days didn't seem to mess with my dough too much....good with room for improvement.

I have no idea what you mean by saying that you cooked "on a Big Green Egg."  I always -- like all the major deep dish pizzerias in Chicago -- bake the pizza with uncooked sausage and never had a problem.  And those pizzerias usually cook from 425 to 475 degrees F.  Pre-cooked sausage doesn't taste very good to me and others when it get extremely overcooked.  But some still have a preference to cook the sausage first.  That's a personal preference, I guess.  I'll let someone else explain the difference between ADY and IDY.  You can interchange but at a little different amounts.  I have a big preference for, and only use, ADY. 

The pictures still looked pretty good.  You'll get it down pat in no time.                     --BTB

[/quote]
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dannwk on January 22, 2010, 11:52:22 AM
I further studied what I did in connection with the crust formulation in Reply #19 above.   Today --  after learning much here on this site -- I would figure out the recipe differently and would not enter a semolina figure in the deep dish calculation tool anymore as I did back then.  However, that earlier formulation still works fine and gives great results as the pictures show.  Peter, you are right on your calculations.  My figures just yesterday in Reply #130 above were a little mixed up (bad memory or damn scotch) and I'll further revise them herein.

What I did back 18 to 24 months ago was enter 25% semolina in the deep dish calculation tool itself, which in that formulation resulted in the all-purpose flour weight of 177.58 grams and semolina flour weight of 44.39 grams.  I misinterpreted Peter's comments back then and subtracted the 44.39 grams from the 177.58 grams resulting in the reported 133.19 grams, which provided for a fine pizza but resulted in the proportions being way out of wack.  Further, by entering 25% (or any other figure) in the deep dish calculation tool itself, Peter you indicated that that results in changing the weights and throwing the other ingredients out of wack, too.  Blending of the flour "outside" the tool (meaning calculating outside the tool) seemed to show a more preferable way to go and does not result in changing the weights of all the other ingredients.  At least that's one point of view.

So, the way I do this exact formulation today -- and I think in all subsequent formulations in the thread -- is as Peter indicated in his first example.  For a 9" diameter deep dish pizza, with the dough pushed up approx. 1.5" up side of pan, a TF of 0.125, and bowl residue of 1.5%, the tool results would show:

Flour (100%):  202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (47%):  95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (175.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

After getting this result with the deep dish calculation tool, if one wanted a proportion of the flour to be 25% semolina flour, you would do the calculation thusly:  202.88 grams of flour, 25% = 50.72 grams (1.79 ounces) and the 75% remainder would be 152.16 grams (5.37 ounces) of AP flour.  And by doing it this way, none of the weights of the other ingredients changes, making it -- believe it or not -- less complicated if you wanted to change the proportion of semolina or other flours in subsequent recipes.

Parenthetically, I no longer use cream of tartar as an ingredient as in this formulation.  Such was noted elsewhere as a dough conditioner and reportedly used in some of the Chicago pizzerias (like Gino's East).  After some experience with it, I couldn't see the value of its addition.  I occasionally add a half tsp of Baker's NFDM instead, but that is also not essential.

All this is making me hungry.  I think I'll head for the kitchen . . . .                      --BTB


Ok I'm not sure if I am understanding this correctly...I am trying to convert this to a 14" pan. Can someone who understands this alittle better than I obviously do please see if this looks right. Am I seeing this correctly that there is no salt in the recipe, I have had problems in the past with tasteless crusts and am anxious to try this recipe

Flour (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (.7%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Cream of Tartar (.75%):
Total (175.45%):
428.3 g  |  15.11 oz | 0.94 lbs
201.3 g  |  7.1 oz | 0.44 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
25.7 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.71 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
79.24 g | 2.79 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.87 tbsp | 0.37 cups
4.28 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
3.21 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875

then useing the 25% semolina flour conversion the flour goes to 308.38g AP and 119.92g Semolina or 10.88 OZ AP and 4.23 OZ Semolina
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2010, 12:48:42 PM
danwk,

Is your 14" pan straight-sided or sloping-sided and, if the latter, what are the top and bottom diameters? 

I will leave to others the matter of including or excluding salt for the particular dough formulation, and its recommended amount if included, but it is easy to add salt to the dough formulation if you would like to do that. That will change the numbers a bit but not materially. What type of salt would you plan to use?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on January 22, 2010, 02:23:25 PM
BTB, I've been reading through this thread and would like some clarification on your methodology.  In your instructions, you say: 
Quote
I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.

Am I to understand that you mix the flours, and salt and ADY proofed in the water and do a preliminary mix and set it aside for 25 minutes and then add the withheld 1/4C of KAAP along with the oil and butter and mix for 1 minute?  So you are hydrating the flours prior to adding the oil?  I'm not questioning the methodology just want to be clear about your procedure before I make up a batch.

Thanks.  Your pies look fantastic!

All the best,

David
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dannwk on January 22, 2010, 03:50:54 PM
danwk,

Is your 14" pan straight-sided or sloping-sided and, if the latter, what are the top and bottom diameters? 

I will leave to others the matter of including or excluding salt for the particular dough formulation, and its recommended amount if included, but it is easy to add salt to the dough formulation if you would like to do that. That will change the numbers a bit but not materially. What type of salt would you plan to use?

Peter

thanks for the reply, its a straight sided pan, and for salt I only use mortons Kosher
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2010, 04:36:06 PM
dannwk,

You correctly recited the dough formulation for your 14" x 2" deep-dish pan. However, your apportionment of the all-purpose flour/semolina blend is incorrect if you wish to use 25% semolina. I calculate the apportionment as 321.23 grams (11.33 ounces) all-purpose flour and 107.08 grams (3.78 ounces) semolina.

I did a quick scan of this thread and noted that at times BTB specified salt at 0.50% but, on other occasions, he omitted the salt. He also stopped using cream of tartar. If you wish to reinstate the salt (using Morton's Kosher salt) and leave out the cream of tartar, the modified dough formulation as produced using the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html looks like this:

All-Purpose Flour/Semolina Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (175.2%):
428.91 g  |  15.13 oz | 0.95 lbs
201.59 g  |  7.11 oz | 0.44 lbs
3 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
25.73 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.72 tsp | 1.91 tbsp
79.35 g | 2.8 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.88 tbsp | 0.37 cups
4.29 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.91 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
6.43 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.61 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
* The all-purpose flour/semolina blend comprises 321.68 grams (11.35 ounces) all-purpose flour and 107.23 grams (3.78 ounces) semolina flour
Note: For a straight-sided 14"x 2" deep-dish pan with the dough pushed up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"; nominal thickness factor = 0.125; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you can see, adding a bit of salt and omitting the cream of tartar has little effect on the numbers. Of course, if you would like to increase or decrease the salt from 0.50% and to reinstate the cream of tartar, the changes are easy to make. You have already demonstrated that you know how to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool.

I hope you will let us know how things turn out, including the final dough formulation you decide upon. Photos would also be welcome.

Peter

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on January 22, 2010, 05:57:30 PM
One other question, BTB's formulation generally uses no salt, but I see a few posting with .5% salt in the formulation.  Can folks comment on the use of or not of salt in this recipe?  Thanks, --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on January 22, 2010, 06:31:13 PM
db,

The Malnati's basic deep-dish dough, which apparently was the springboard for BTB's dough formulation with semolina, includes no salt, as noted in the ingredients list at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7467.msg64252/topicseen.html#msg64252. However, some members prefer some salt in their crusts. When I tried DKM's version of the Malnati's deep-dish dough, which also omitted salt, I personally preferred some salt.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tikidoc on January 22, 2010, 09:01:03 PM
I made a variation of the Malnati's dough tonight but did a double crust like Giordano's and it worked out great!

I used the following recipe to make 2 9" pizzas and a 14".  I used AP flour, the Eagle Mills high fiber stuff (http://www.biteofthebest.com/eagle-mills-all-purpose-flour-made-with-ultragrain%C2%AE/).  I had vegetable oil on hand but woulds try corn oil next time.

For the 9" pizzas:

Flour (100%):    703.07 g  |  24.8 oz | 1.55 lbs
Water (47%):    330.45 g  |  11.66 oz | 0.73 lbs
IDY (.8%):    5.62 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Salt (0.75%):    5.27 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    21.09 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.69 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (15%):    105.46 g | 3.72 oz | 0.23 lbs | 7.74 tbsp | 0.48 cups
Butter/Margarine (3%):    21.09 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.46 tsp | 1.49 tbsp
Semolina (20%):    140.61 g | 4.96 oz | 0.31 lbs | 13.47 tbsp | 0.84 cups
Total (189.55%):   1332.68 g | 47.01 oz | 2.94 lbs | TF = 0.1827
Single Inner Ball:   512.57 g | 18.08 oz | 1.13 lbs
Single Outer Ball:   153.77 g | 5.42 oz | 0.34 lbs

And the 14":

Flour (100%):    700.72 g  |  24.72 oz | 1.54 lbs
Water (47%):    329.34 g  |  11.62 oz | 0.73 lbs
IDY (.8%):    5.61 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.86 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
Salt (0.75%):    5.26 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Olive Oil (3%):    21.02 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.67 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (15%):    105.11 g | 3.71 oz | 0.23 lbs | 7.71 tbsp | 0.48 cups
Butter/Margarine (3%):    21.02 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.45 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
Semolina (20%):    140.14 g | 4.94 oz | 0.31 lbs | 13.43 tbsp | 0.84 cups
Total (189.55%):   1328.22 g | 46.85 oz | 2.93 lbs | TF = 0.1827
Single Inner Ball:   1021.7 g | 36.04 oz | 2.25 lbs
Single Outer Ball:   306.51 g | 10.81 oz | 0.68 lbs

I used the recipe VCB posted to make the sausage, using ground pork from the grocery.  I was in a hurry and all their Italian sausage was frozen, so I just mixed the spices with the meat.

    * 1 1/2 teaspoons salt
    * 3 1/2 teaspoons paprika
    * 2/3 teaspoon garlic powder
    * 2/3 teaspoon fennel seed
    * 1 teaspoon ground black pepper
    * 1/4 teaspoon red pepper flakes
    * 1/2 teaspoon oregano
    * 1/2 teaspoon sage
    * 1/2 teaspoon basil
    * 1/2 teaspoon thyme
    * 1 lb ground lean pork

I made a simple sauce with 6 and 1's.

As for the dough, I mixed it up this morning, rose for an hour while I was doing other stuff in the kitchen.  Into the fridge until about 2 hours before baking. 

It ended up fantastic, with flaky and tender crust.  It was a big hit with a bunch of friends who have never had deep dish/stuffed pizza before.

Pics to follow...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on January 23, 2010, 11:47:17 AM
Thanks, Pete.  Giving it a whirl today for tomorrow's games! --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina - Field report
Post by: dbgtr on January 24, 2010, 10:53:08 PM
I did the 25% version of this dough, recalculating it for my 14.5 x 13.5 x 1.5" slope sided pans.  It was delightful.  All the Chicagoans at the party were ecstatic, as well as mournful because they'd have to go back to eating regular DC pizza.

Loowaters, you ROCK!  I did the shortening in the pan as you suggested.  Much easier time getting the dough stretched and pinched.  I did find that the dough did shrink back from the pan as it baked.  I drained the tomatoes as you suggested (Cento's ROA San Marzano's) and the pie crisped up without getting soggy from too much topping.  I was more spare in my tomato than some of you, but liked it that way.

Thanks again.  Alas, no pictures.  I'll be trying it again later this week and will take photos. --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on January 25, 2010, 08:47:02 AM
Well, I made another attempt with an 10" version using .11 thickness factor, 5% olive oil, 18% corn oil, 25% semolina, 75% bread flour instead of AP flour. Totally burnt it in the egg! >:( :'( Barely edible!

So, I don't really know how my crust recipe turned out. My dough seemed very "elastic" & i had to resort to a rolling pin to get it flattened into a pan.

Was that due to the bread flour vs. AP flour? I'll have to give it another try.

Sorry, no pics. Just picture an extremely large dark, dark brown hockey puck with sauce on it!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on January 25, 2010, 02:02:54 PM
Here's the formulation from the Dough tool for a 14.5 x 13.5 x 1.5" sloped pan:

Flour (100%):    406.74 g  |  14.35 oz | 0.9 lbs
Water (47%):    191.17 g  |  6.74 oz | 0.42 lbs
ADY (.7%):    2.85 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt (.5%):    2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    24.4 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.42 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    75.25 g | 2.65 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.57 tbsp | 0.35 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    4.07 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    6.1 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
Total (175.2%):   712.61 g | 25.14 oz | 1.57 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Flour is KAAP:

305g KAAP
101.7g Semolina

One observation I had was that the oil content is a little high because I had to add flour (at least 1/4C) to it to make it not bleed oil.  Wondering what other's thoughts were in this regard.  I have a digital scale that I measure everything out to.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on January 25, 2010, 04:05:57 PM
Firefly,

What's your Egg setup when you cook?  Are you going based on the dome thermometer and has it been calibrated recently?

I've made the BTB recipe in my oven, not my Egg, but I would keep the temperature as close to 450 as possible, especially with a dark springform pan, which is probably highly conductive and may be contributing to the overbrowning.  I have done NY-style in my Egg, and always do platesetter, legs down, then spacer (Egg feet or grate), then pizza stone.  The air gap between the PS and pizza stone helps keep the underside from browning too fast.

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on January 25, 2010, 05:19:59 PM

Legs down, 3 egg feet w/ 13" pizza stone on feet. cooking @ 550ish dome thermometer temp. Not using a probe during hot cooks (don't want to melt it) but It's about 50F colder than probe on grate @ 250ish. i think my main problem was duration(35 min) not temp.
 will try again!


Firefly,

What's your Egg setup when you cook?  Are you going based on the dome thermometer and has it been calibrated recently?

I've made the BTB recipe in my oven, not my Egg, but I would keep the temperature as close to 450 as possible, especially with a dark springform pan, which is probably highly conductive and may be contributing to the overbrowning.  I have done NY-style in my Egg, and always do platesetter, legs down, then spacer (Egg feet or grate), then pizza stone.  The air gap between the PS and pizza stone helps keep the underside from browning too fast.

Michelle
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Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on January 27, 2010, 05:40:53 PM
cooking @ 550ish dome thermometer temp

Hmmm... Same set up I use, but if it were me I'd back that down to the 450 BTB uses in an oven (which is pretty much how we're using the Egg) and still cook the full 30-35 minutes, especially if using a raw sausage patty.  Maybe 475 but that's as high as I'd go.  550 with the high fat in the Chicago dough plus a thinner-gauge pan like a springform seems high to me.  I do like the higher temps for thinner pizzas with fewer toppings, like NY style, but as the load increases, it seems the temp needs to drop so the bottom doesn't burn before the toppings are done.

Are you over on the Egg forum as well?  There are a lot of pizza makers there who can help answer Egg-specific questions as well.

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on February 01, 2010, 09:29:10 AM
Well, I gave it another shot last night. Here is the recipe:
Flour (75/25)  187.05 g | 8.78 oz | 0.55 lbs  (62g) 25% w/ Semolina
Water (48%):    119.54 g | 4.22 oz | 0.26 lbs
ADY (.8%):    1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (1%):    2.49 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):    12.45 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.77 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):    44.83 g | 1.58 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.96 tsp | 3.32 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):    2.49 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    4.98 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (176.55%):   439.69 g | 15.51 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.1122

The sausage done / crust burnt thing is really a fine tune situation thing to me. My temp was 159F while crust was on the verge of burning. I think next time I'll give in & cook in the oven (I've been using my Big Green Egg).
I also may try a shiny deep dish pan instead of my dark, no-stick spring forms.

My dough was very difficult to spread out in in pan again. I've been kneeding it for about 1 min prior to going into the pan. I think maybe next time I'll just plop it into the pan & spread it out.

Going to work on the sauce too.....but that's another story.

All that being said it was really good. Best to date. here are some pics. The other pie was  Gluten free pie I made for my wife (she's on a GF kick) YUCK!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on February 01, 2010, 09:33:47 AM
The pie looks really good.  One question, what's all the loose semolina from?

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on February 01, 2010, 09:39:01 AM
all pics did not attach ???, another try:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on February 01, 2010, 10:26:24 AM
mkc, do you find that the lower temp/longer bake helps with moisture evaporation as well?  I made a couple of pies this weekend and had problems with moisture again.  In these particular instances, unlike other times, I used raw sausage in place of parcooking which I've done in the past.  In both instances, the pies used a low moisture Sargento mozzarella which seemed to be softer and likely higher in moisture than other brands I've used (Polly-O, Frigo).  I used Cento ROA tomatoes that were deseeded, chopped, and drained for 20 minutes, and had some of the puree from the can added back in.

I baked at 475 on the second lowest rack in the oven.  I let the pie rest 5 minutes before cutting, but nonetheless had a soggy pie.

Suggestions? --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 01, 2010, 11:52:28 AM
David,

When I do Buzz' version of "Autolyse," which is one of many variations of it, I do add everything into the mixture -- except the oil and butter -- and then wait 20 to 40 minutes before adding the small amount of flour that I am withholding.  I have done it both ways, tho, where I put everything together in the mixture, then "rest" the mixture, then add the remaining flour.  I have to admit, both seemed to work equally as well. 

While I think it is preferable to use the autolyse, it has been debated how dramatic the difference really is.  When I have time, I do the autolyse, but all too often I am rushed doing multiple different kinds of pizzas or just other things, so I skip the autolyse to save time.  I guess I'd say the autolyse procedure is "preferable" but not absolutely "critical."

Regarding salt -- I have come around to always adding salt into the mixture and rarely make pizza dough without it anymore.  To me and others, it makes a dramatic difference in taste, flavor, etc.  But if one has a salt problem, it can be easily withheld.  And I find myself more times than not making this dough for "same day use" and not refrigerating for use the next day or two.  I just like it better that way.  I do like AP flour better, but have made some pretty good deep dish pizzas with GM's Better for Bread flour.

I don't use the springform pans as I didn't like the results, esp. when some of my tasters want olive oil in the bottom of the pan (as opposed to my general preference for Crisco).  Use your shiny pan instead, altho that has some drawbacks, too, but I think would be preferable.  I often find myself flattening the dough on the counter to the width of the pan plus one inch just by hand, then pick the dough up and place it roughly into the pan and then work to press it out into the pan better (especially working to crimp and press the edges up the sides of the pan).  And often times it pays afterwards to wait 10 to 15 minutes to let the dough firm up a little better and press and crimp again before adding all the ingredients.  And even after adding all the ingredients (i.e., "dressing" the pizza), crimp and press the dough edges again right before putting it into the oven.

Until you mentioned it recently, I was not familiar with the Big Green Egg, or even the Black one.  Guess I never paid attention to those threads.  My guess would be that it would tend to severely overcook the bottom of the deep dish pizza pan, but I am just not that familiar with it.  I like a regular oven for deep dish in the range of 425 to 475 degrees F.  Your pictures looked very good, however, even with the dark browning of the crust.  You'll get it down pat in no time, I'm sure.  I assume the semolina was just to aid with the paddle in adding and removing the pizza to your stone.
                                                           
                                                                                         --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on February 01, 2010, 01:09:51 PM
The pie looks really good.  One question, what's all the loose semolina from?

Loo
Actually that's corn meal. I know.....no corn meal in Chicago deep dish! I made a Home Run Inn pizza clone (which I'm also working on) for my boys (4 & 6) because they boycott the deep dish for reasons only known to them. Just using the corn meal for the peel.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkc on February 01, 2010, 01:35:16 PM
mkc, do you find that the lower temp/longer bake helps with moisture evaporation as well? 

I used Cento ROA tomatoes that were deseeded, chopped, and drained for 20 minutes, and had some of the puree from the can added back in.

Suggestions? --db

db,

I've only used Great Value (crushed, I think) for my tomatoes, and I let them drain 3 to 4 hours in a fine mesh sieve.  I've used a 28 ounce can for a 12" pie, and I don't add any of the puree (I get between 3/4 and 1 cup of liquid out) back in.  If you scan this thread back a few pages and you'll see some pics of the result, which wasn't watery at all, despite the addition of cooked spinach and mushrooms.

I believe the lower (450, not lower than BTB recommends but lower than for a thin-crust NY-style) temperature/longer bake time lets the interior cook without overbaking/browning the crust. 

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: joe697 on February 01, 2010, 05:11:29 PM
Just got my 16" pan today and am looking forward to making this pizza!!!  If anyone has already created a formulation using 25% semolina and no cream of tatar I would love to get it.  I've tried using the calculator but must be a dope because it does not seem correct.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on February 01, 2010, 05:26:17 PM
Thanks for the suggestions, Michelle.  I wasn't baking it on my stone, so I'll have to do that.  Doesn't the pie get cold after 15 minutes of resting?  The look phenomenal!

BTB, thanks for the clarification.  I wasn't familiar with the term or procedure autolyse.  My friends thank you for your input on this site, I thank you.  Great work!

All the best,

David
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: joe697 on February 01, 2010, 08:34:31 PM
I thought I'd paste my dd calculator output so perhaps someone would let me know what I'm doing wrong.  This is based on BTB's wonderful looking pizza recipe. 

The below is based on a 16" straight sided round pan with the dough pushed up 1.5" on the sides.  Bowl residue is the typical 1.5% seen on this thread as is the .125% thickness factor.

Flour (100%):    474.6 g  |  16.74 oz | 1.05 lbs
Water (47%):    223.06 g  |  7.87 oz | 0.49 lbs
IDY (.5%):    2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Salt (0.5%):    2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    28.48 g | 1 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.33 tsp | 2.11 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    87.8 g | 3.1 oz | 0.19 lbs | 6.5 tbsp | 0.41 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    4.75 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    7.12 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Semolina (25%):    118.65 g | 4.19 oz | 0.26 lbs | 11.37 tbsp | 0.71 cups
Total (200%):   949.2 g | 33.48 oz | 2.09 lbs | TF = 0.126875

I just guessed at the IDY amount since that is what I have and I know it is normally less than ADY.  Not sure how much, if at all, this will affect the final product. 

One other question.  If I prefer crust that is a bit thicker, say by a .25" all around what do I need to do to change my formulation?  Would I enter perhaps 17" or 18" in the dd calculator even though I'll be using a 16" pan?  Thanks!

- Joe
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on February 01, 2010, 09:23:44 PM
Joe, I don't see any real problems with those numbers.  If it's semolina you want in the blend, just replace that amount by weight.  25% for you would be 118.65g based on your numbers above.  The rest would now be 355.95g flour.

You're right, the IDY will be less than the ADY if that's what you're going to use and adjusting downward by 1/3 is a pretty good rule of thumb. 

If you want the dough to be thicker just increase the TF.  You can do this thru trial and error, but for a little help, remember that the TF is the amount of dough in ounces per square inch.

A 16" deep dish pizza is a monster that I would probably advise you to just cut in the pan rather than try to get it out.

Good luck.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 01, 2010, 09:37:42 PM
Joe, I just ran your proportions in the deep dish calculation tool and got the same total weight, but the weights for all the other ingredients are different.  Am uncertain what we did differently.  Here's my result:

Flour Blend * (100%):  542.4 g  |  19.13 oz | 1.2 lbs
Water (47%):  254.93 g  |  8.99 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (.5%):  2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Salt (.5%):  2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  32.54 g | 1.15 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.23 tsp | 2.41 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  100.34 g | 3.54 oz | 0.22 lbs | 7.43 tbsp | 0.46 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):  5.42 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  8.14 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.04 tsp | 0.68 tbsp
Total (175%): 949.2 g | 33.48 oz | 2.09 lbs | TF = 0.126875
    * The flour blend comprises 406.8 grams of AP and 135.6 grams of semolina
      Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.125; pan is straight-sided and 16" in diameter; the dough is pushed
      up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%. 

A 16" deep dish pizza is really a monster.  You must have an army to feed.  That size pan will not fit in the average home oven, but I trust it does in yours.  Just a suggestion to cut back on the oil 2 to 4 points.

                                                                                        --BTB                     :-\
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: joe697 on February 02, 2010, 04:28:48 PM
Thank you for the replies Loo & BTB.  Sometimes one can actually hear the click when the proverbial light bulb turns on.  I know I did when looking at BTB's post.  I foolishly had been entering 20% or 25% into the Semolina field of the dd calculator.  I'm glad I now understand how to correctly use the tool. 

- Joe
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 02, 2010, 04:37:33 PM
I foolishly had been entering 20% or 25% into the Semolina field of the dd calculator.
Um . . . as indicated earlier in this thread, I initially did that too.  So don't feel so bad.  Looking forward to hearing about your successes.                                                                                                      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: peetzabone on February 06, 2010, 04:15:58 PM
 :o

BTB- my buddy and I agree that those photos are nearly porno. I am salivating like a Mr. Pavlov's dog in a steeple at noon. Or midnight.

Am I ok doubling your dough recipe without correction?  I don't know if you said how large your pan was but I know I want to make two pies and one of them may be stuffed so I may just 3x the recipe.

Thanks for the inspiration!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina (adding mushrooms)
Post by: firefly765 on February 12, 2010, 08:58:59 AM
 
When adding mushrooms to this pizza do you pre cook them? Or, add them raw above the sausage? Going to try again tonight with 2 new 9" silver cake pans I bought. Wish me luck!

db,

  If you scan this thread back a few pages and you'll see some pics of the result, which wasn't watery at all, despite the addition of cooked spinach and mushrooms.

Michelle
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2010, 09:19:06 AM
I mixed this dough last evening.  Do you see anything wrong with my calculations.  I am going to make the Malnati Deep Dish tonight in a 12" straight side deep dish pan.  I wanted to see if the Durum flour was okay for this formula.

BTB Manlnati Deep Dish with KAAP and Durum Flour


277.56 g  KAAP Flour        92.52 g Durum Flour

Flour (100%):    370.08 g  |  13.05 oz | 0.82 lbs
Water (47%):    173.94 g  |  6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Salt (0.5%):    1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    22.2 g | 0.78 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.93 tsp | 1.64 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    68.46 g | 2.41 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.07 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    3.7 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    5.55 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (175%):   647.64 g | 22.84 oz | 1.43 lbs | TF = 0.1275723

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on February 12, 2010, 11:11:24 AM
That looks like a pretty heavy dough ball.  Using my calculations 12" at .1275723 comes in at 579g.  It looks like you went the full two inches up the sides of the pan, I usually go 1 1/2".  There's the difference.  Looks good and should work out fine.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 12, 2010, 11:22:43 AM
Norma,

There are three pieces of information that we need to know to enable us to tell if what you came up with is correct: 1) the thickness factor, 2) how far up the sides of your pan the dough goes, and 3) the bowl residue compensation. BTB uses a thickness factor of 0.125, the dough goes up the sides of the pan by 1.5", and the bowl residue compensation is 1.5%. I tried different combinations in the deep-dish dough calculating tool and couldn't come up with your results. Using BTB's values for the above three numbers for a 12" straight-sided pan, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (47%):
IDY (0.5%):
Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (175%):
329.31 g  |  11.62 oz | 0.73 lbs
154.78 g  |  5.46 oz | 0.34 lbs
1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
19.76 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.39 tsp | 1.46 tbsp
60.92 g | 2.15 oz | 0.13 lbs | 4.51 tbsp | 0.28 cups
3.29 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.7 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
4.94 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
576.3 g | 20.33 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = 0.126875

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 12, 2010, 11:29:55 AM
Norma, that does seem like too much dough for a 12" diameter deep dish.  My use of the deep dish calculator came up with 576.3 g (with 1.5" up the side of the pan and 1.5% bowl residue, and a .125 TF).  I would suggest that you simply just not use all the dough.  Save the excess for a little thn crust.  Your flour proportion shows 25% semolina flour. 

Opps, I see Peter had already responded.  Let us know how the pizza turns out.

                                                                                     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2010, 11:40:42 AM
loowaters,

Thanks for looking over my calculations and telling me it looked like the dough ball is heavy.  Hopefully it works out okay.  Here is a picture of what the dough ball looks like now.

Thanks,

Norma

Peter,

I went by the formula at reply #226 and used the deep dish calculating tool.  I did use a thickness factor of 0.125 and 1.5 bowl residue.  I put in the calculator 12" pan and 2" deep.  I didn’t save the all of the numbers I put in, just the formula I thought I needed to mix. 

Thanks,

Norma

BTB,

Thanks for also going over my calculations.  I will follow your advise and not use all of the dough.  I did use 25% for the Durum flour, in place of Semolina.  I will let you know how the deep dish turns out.

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2010, 11:52:50 AM
I think I know what I did wrong.  I have to look in this thread.  I think there was another place here that I saw a thickness factor of 0.1275723 and that is what I used.  I will look and see if that is where I went wrong.  I did look and can't find out why I used this thickness factor of 0.1275723 .  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina (adding mushrooms)
Post by: mkc on February 12, 2010, 05:52:24 PM

When adding mushrooms to this pizza do you pre cook them? Or, add them raw above the sausage? Going to try again tonight with 2 new 9" silver cake pans I bought. Wish me luck!


Hi Firefly,

I precook the sliced mushrooms in a small amount of olive oil and with some minced garlic.  I cook them past the point of giving off moisture and to the point where they're fairly dry.  Mushrooms contain a lot of water and would result in a soggy 'za.

Good luck with the new pans!  Are you going to try the lower (450 F) temperature as well?

Michelle (doing my first Glutenboy recipe NY style tonight...)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on February 12, 2010, 06:03:57 PM
Firefly, I concur with Michelle.  Brown them off before adding them to the pie.  They'll lose lots of water in the process, and the caramelization will give them a deeper flavor.  I like the idea of adding the garlic, Michelle.   Nice touch. --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2010, 10:18:45 PM
I must say, I thought this Malnati Deep Dish was really good.  One slice was enough to fill me. Thanks to BTB and everyone that has contributed to this thread.

I rolled the dough out for this pie. The dough was easy to roll out.  I made the one spot too thin, so I just patched it with the leftover dough. The Malnati Deep Dish was dressed with mozzarella, sausage, pepperoni, and 6 in 1 sauce and grated Parmesan cheese..  I added only sugar and sea salt to the 6 in 1 sauce.

Since I have only made one other deep dish, I really don’t have too much to compare this to. I do think the Durum flour was okay to use in this pie.  The crust was crispy.

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 12, 2010, 10:19:47 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2010, 11:14:54 AM
Peter,

With a slightly awkward on going attempt to figure out what I did wrong in using the deep-dish dough calculator, I went over what I thought I might have done wrong.  I now know I didn’t use a bowl residue.  I also used a thickness factor of 0.127572.  I have printed, scanned and saved the whole process.  I think I have figured this out.

Here is the scanned document.

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 13, 2010, 11:26:56 AM
Norma, those pictures looked fantastic.  Boy, I would like to taste some of that pizza.  I can't help but believe that the pizza tasted as good as the pictures.  The tear in the skin happens from time to time, but you did right by patching it with some extra dough. 

As I expressed in another thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg90113.html#msg90113 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.msg90113.html#msg90113) ), I am a little unfamiliar or perplexed about the question of durum flour vs. semolina flour as I haven't come across or ever used something just called durum flour before. 
I thought I remember you making a deep dish with some semolina before, but maybe I'm mistaken.  If you did, did you notice any difference in taste between the semolina flour and the flour you got that was labeled "durum flour?"

I see you used "cooked" sausage vs. the traditional uncooked sausage, which is fine.  Also grated cheese vs. slices, which is also fine.  You put on a great amount of pepperoni and wonder if it didn't get a little too greasy from the pepperoni.  But many love it that way. 

Great job and I always look forward to hearing of your adventures in pizzamaking.

                                                                                                  --BTB

P.S. When you have a pan that is 2" deep, most people do not enter 2" in the section that says "How far up the side of the pan will the dough go?"  Instead most will enter 1.5" or something less than 2".  I think your entering 2" was the reason for an increased amount of dough.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 13, 2010, 11:35:29 AM
Norma,

BTB's explanation in his PS is correct. BTB's thickness factor after using a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% is 0.126875. The difference between that value and the value you used without a bowl residue compensation, that it, 0.1275723, is de minimus. What made the difference in your case is that you used 2", not 1 1/2", as the depth of the skin when placed in your pan.

I agree with BTB on the looks of your pizza. Did you bake the pizza in your home oven or at market in your deck oven?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 13, 2010, 11:47:55 AM
BTB,

Since Norma used durum flour for her version of your pizza and posted here, I thought I would post here also on the durum/semolina issue.

I have always viewed durum as being a species of wheat and semolina as the ground endosperm of the durum wheat. Semolina flour is not a distinct species, like whole wheat or rye flour. It comes only from the endosperm of durum wheat. That is consistent with what I have read on Wikipedia about durum wheat, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durum, and on semolina, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semolina. I suppose the fineness of the semolina characterizes it as fine or coarse. Assuming that what Norma used was durum flour, and that the bag was properly labeled, then I believe she would have gotten the endosperm also. No doubt, there is a lot of mislabeling going on with durum and semolina, with little likelihood of anyone being around to clarify what your really have on your hands.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2010, 01:06:09 PM
BTB,

Coming from a master of deep-dish pizzas, I really appreciated you saying the Malnati Deep Dish looked fantastic.  :)  I wish you could also taste the pie.  Then I would  know if this is how the pizza is supposed to taste. 

In the other thread you are referring to, these are the two replies I gave:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10267.msg90124.html#msg90124 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10267.msg90185.html#msg90185

This is the third kind of pizza I have made using different durum flours.  The one was at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88349.html#msg88349 and the 2nd one was at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89503.html#msg89503

Both of these pizzas turned out okay using the durum flour. 

I made a Giordano’s Stuffed Crust at, but didn’t use durum flour for that pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10018.msg87298.html#msg87298  This is the formula I used for the Giordano's Stuffed Crust. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5674.msg69607.html#msg69607

I only have these two Chicago deep-dish pies to compare.  Although these two pizzas crusts are different I enjoyed both of the pies.  I think I like the Malnati Deep Dish better though, in terms of the taste of the crust. 

Your pie has inspired me to try more.

Thanks so much,

Norma

Peter,

Thanks for saying you agree with BTB about this Malnati Deep Dish.  I baked this pie in my home oven.

I have three kinds of durum flour here at home right now.  One Warren gave me at Warren’s Bread Baking Demo at Fred’s Music. He purchased that one at Echo Foods. Another one that I used for this recipe, that was purchased by Bob1 and I bought from him at the Bread Demo.  That was purchased at Bova Foods.  The other one is the one my daughter purchased for me in Queens, New York.  That one is Divella Durum Wheat Semolina.  Matt had said he uses a different brand of this flour that is finer than mine. 

I do believe all these durum flours can become confusing, but they have all worked out okay for me in making different pizzas.  ::)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2010, 01:36:12 PM
I anyone is interested is seeing the durum flour I used  in the Malanti Deep Dish recipe by BTB, this is a picture of the flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mad_Ernie on February 13, 2010, 03:43:57 PM
I would think the durum would perform similarly within the dough.  However the picture you posted looks a little more "powdery" or "floury" than what I expect to see from semolina. 

But if the pizza came out tasting good, that's all that counts. :)

Thanks for sharing.  ;D

-ME
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2010, 04:32:02 PM
I would think the durum would perform similarly within the dough.  However the picture you posted looks a little more "powdery" or "floury" than what I expect to see from semolina. 

But if the pizza came out tasting good, that's all that counts. :)

Thanks for sharing.  ;D

-ME


Mad_Ernie,

The pizza did taste good.  We just had a reheated slice in the oven.  It is still good.  :)
Two more slices to go.

Thanks,

Norma


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RoughMix on February 14, 2010, 09:30:13 AM
I've been trying for years to make a good Chicago style pizza at home. Thanks to BTB and everyone who contributes to this forum. I can't believe that I didn't find this forum earlier.

I made my first BTB-inspired Malnati's style pizza last weekend. Unfortunately, my crust came out very dry. I believe I've missed something in this long thread. I used this dough formulation and these instructions:

Flour (100%):  202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
(AP Flour = 152.16 g and Semolina = 50.72 g)
Water (47%):  95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):  1.52 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (175.45%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875

I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed
ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen. 
Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter. 
After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the
formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.


Using 3.36 oz. of water (which I used to proof the yeast), I could barely get my dough into a ball, so I added another ounce of water and followed the instructions as shown above.

The crust, while edible, was very dry and crumbly. Should I be proofing the yeast separate from the 3.36 oz. of water? Or am I missing something else?

BTB, can you help?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PizzaHog on February 14, 2010, 12:05:59 PM
Hey Rough
When I first tried this style I ended up with similar results.  It turned out to be caused just by overbaking.  Although it seems many bake these for up to 28 mins, in my case 24 mins does the trick. 
Not sure if this might the case for you but thought it worth a mention.
The real experts on this style may have more to offer.
Hog
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RoughMix on February 15, 2010, 09:03:10 AM
Thanks for the idea, PizzaHog. I might have baked it too long, about 27 minutes, but I knew that the dough was dry before I let it rest the first time.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 15, 2010, 09:39:57 AM
I'm admittedly a little puzzled about your experience, RoughMix.  Usually the mixture of all the ingredients here results in a pretty good dough ball that's just about right, and on some occasions for some reason, it even turns out a little too oily a dough ball.  Norma used a similar or essentially the same recipe lately and shared a picture of the dough ball with us in Reply #235 above (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg90048.html#msg90048).  Did yours look like hers?  What you described as "crumbly" crust after baking I'm not certain of.  That's not how the baked dough generally is, except a small amount of flakiness to the crust would be highly desired.

I would suggest skipping the autolyse (rest) procedure until you get other aspects of deep dish dough down pat.  Mix all the dry ingredients and then wet ones together and then see how it goes.  I do use separately about 1 to 2 ounces of water into a shot glass, microwave it gently until it reaches 100 to 110 degrees F, add the ADY, and let proof for 10 minutes before adding to the mixture.  I then add the rest of the water (which I prefer cold).  But it's OK I guess if one proofs the yeast in the total amount of water as you did, so that shouldn't have affected it as you mentioned.

I really like the hydration for deep dish crusts to be in the range of 45 to 48%.  If you actually put another ounce of water in for a 9" pie, that raised it to over 60% which is unchartered territory for deep dish dough in my experience .  But your dry and "crumbly" characterization throws me for a loop in a way.  With all this oil, I can't imagine the dough being dry.  There are many good recipes on this site, so you can look forward to a lot of fun experiences seeing which ones suits your tastes and needs.  Share some good pictures and we may be better able to comment on the results.

                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on February 15, 2010, 10:31:22 AM

Roughmix,
Just a question. Did you add all the oil? Because you don't mention adding the oil in your mixing instructions. The dough would be verry dry w/o the oil. Just thought maybe you overlooked that.



Using 3.36 oz. of water (which I used to proof the yeast), I could barely get my dough into a ball, so I added another ounce of water and followed the instructions as shown above.

The crust, while edible, was very dry and crumbly. Should I be proofing the yeast separate from the 3.36 oz. of water? Or am I missing something else?

BTB, can you help?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina (adding mushrooms)
Post by: firefly765 on February 15, 2010, 01:36:33 PM
Did not get this in time. Mushrooms went in raw, i used Jimmy Dean italian sausage, and mixed Gouda cheese with mozzerella. was a little "soupy". All these things were not as good as before. However, the silver cake pans & 450F oven cook were awesome for the crust! My wife special ordered me some 6 in 1 tomatoes for Valentine's Day (she knows the way to my heart)! So next time I'll try to get a better overall product. Not bad at all though. attaching pics.


Hi Firefly,

I precook the sliced mushrooms in a small amount of olive oil and with some minced garlic.  I cook them past the point of giving off moisture and to the point where they're fairly dry.  Mushrooms contain a lot of water and would result in a soggy 'za.

Good luck with the new pans!  Are you going to try the lower (450 F) temperature as well?

Michelle (doing my first Glutenboy recipe NY style tonight...)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RoughMix on February 15, 2010, 03:05:56 PM
Yes, I did add all of teh oil but I believe I misunderstood these directions:

I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen. Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.
After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.


Using 3.36 oz of water, I could not get my dough into a ball for the autolyse procedure. I had way too much residual flour. So I added more water to make the dough moist enough to form a ball. After resting for 25 minutes, I added the oil.

My dough looked similar to Norma's, after adding the oil, but it crumbled more like a sugar cookie than a pizza crust.

So, you proof your yeast in 1-2 oz. of water but your total water does not exceed 3.36 oz. or whatever amount would hydrate the crust in the range of 45 to 48%?

I grew up eating deep dish at Gino's East on Superior and learned to love Malnati's on visits to relatives after becoming an adult. I've lived in Texas for 27 years and have dabbled with pizza crusts for the last few years. My passion is fueled by cravings and the lack of quality pizza here.

I'll be trying again this weekend and I'll share some pictures.

I appreciate everyone's help.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 16, 2010, 10:13:17 AM
the silver cake pans & 450F oven cook were awesome for the crust!
Darker pans are highly recommended for a number of reasons set out in these threads, but on the other hand the color of your crust looked just fine.  It'll just get better and better as you get more experience under your belt (or is it into your stomach?).

So, you proof your yeast in 1-2 oz. of water but your total water does not exceed 3.36 oz. or whatever amount would hydrate the crust in the range of 45 to 48%?
Yes.  So if one used 1 oz. of water to proof the yeast, you would then add an additional 2.36 oz of water.  It's just a personal preference but I like the additional water to be real cold.  I often add just a couple of tenths (roughly calculated) of water as some of the water always remains in the glass or container after its poured out.  It's a judgment thing.  Good luck and have fun.
                                                                                                 
                                                                                          --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: orlando pizza man 1 on February 18, 2010, 12:22:34 PM
firefly those look great! How do you like the taste? I think that this is the closest I have come to the original taste of Malnati's ever. Here are a piece of mine from last night- These were taken this morning before lunch.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on February 18, 2010, 04:13:21 PM

Very good. I'm trying a new pie tonight with 6 in 1 sauce, sausage & spinach. A new crust formula including shortening in place of lots of the oil to try to get a more biscuity taste. I really like this crust formula though so i don't know why I'm experimenting. Just my nature to tinker i guess.


firefly those look great! How do you like the taste? I think that this is the closest I have come to the original taste of Malnati's ever. Here are a piece of mine from last night- These were taken this morning before lunch.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: orlando pizza man 1 on February 19, 2010, 09:25:04 AM
firefly- Sounds like a good combination with the new toppings. Let us know how it comes out. Looking forward to the next pictures.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RoughMix on February 23, 2010, 04:21:23 PM
Here are some pictures from this weekend's pizza using BTB's 9" recipe (listed in reply #249). I must have measured horribly wrong last time because this crust was very good, much moister than last time.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 24, 2010, 09:50:54 AM
The crust looks great, RoughMix.  Is that cornmeal or something under the crust?  It also looks like cheese on the top of the pizza as far I can can tell from the one picture.  Usually the cheese for a deep dish, except for some grated parmesan or romano, is under the sauce.  Good to hear that your experience is getting you better results.
                                                                                                    --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RoughMix on February 24, 2010, 02:24:19 PM
Well, I'm certainly a Chicago style traditionalist but I swayed from that a little bit. The cheese layer was applied directly to the crust followed by the sauce which was enhanced by some pizza herbs and crushed red pepper. Then I added some grated parmesan and a little bit of grated mozzarella followed by the pepperoni. While baking, the grated mozzarella oozed to the top. While not entirely traditional, it was good.

Next task is to find some 6-in-1 tomatoes. Looks like I'll have to order them online. For this version, I used chef pastorelli pizza sauce which is ok, but also not tradtional.

I really wanted to get the crust right, now I'm moving on to perfect the rest of the recipe.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 25, 2010, 01:01:19 PM
Can Somebody please help me with 18 inch calculations ??
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 25, 2010, 01:33:41 PM
Next task is to find some 6-in-1 tomatoes. Looks like I'll have to order them online. For this version, I used chef pastorelli pizza sauce which is ok, but also not tradtional.
Yeow . . . regarding the use of Pastorilli's, which is fairly good on thin crust, but not close on deep dish.  I used to order 6 in 1 from the company over the internet in 3 or 6 can packs (the preferable 28 oz size) and receive it within 7 to 9 days way across the country at the unbelievable shipping cost of 25 cents a can.  I don't think the cost of shipping such has yet increased.  Highly recommend your ordering some of the best crushed tomatoes in the business (that many swear are similar or the same as that used in the great deep dish pizzerias).  Here in Tampa, however, I've located an Italian deli that sells the smaller cans of 6 in 1 and many other great tomato products, so I no longer need to order directly from Escalon.  Depending on where you are at, check out some local sources, altho ordering direct from Escalon is super simple, fairly quick, easy, and reasonably priced.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pizza!! on February 25, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
I must be lucky, the grocery store that I do 99% of all my shopping at has them.  I just picked up a a 28 ounce can for $2.99.  Given the deep dish another shot tomorrow!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on February 25, 2010, 09:26:47 PM
Well, I'm certainly a Chicago style traditionalist but I swayed from that a little bit. The cheese layer was applied directly to the crust followed by the sauce which was enhanced by some pizza herbs and crushed red pepper. Then I added some grated parmesan and a little bit of grated mozzarella followed by the pepperoni. While baking, the grated mozzarella oozed to the top. While not entirely traditional, it was good.

Next task is to find some 6-in-1 tomatoes. Looks like I'll have to order them online. For this version, I used chef pastorelli pizza sauce which is ok, but also not tradtional.

I really wanted to get the crust right, now I'm moving on to perfect the rest of the recipe.

If you're lookin for more tomato info, there's a lot of it here, including this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8592.0.html
If you can find them in your area, I highly recommend the 'San Marzano' diced tomatoes in the white labeled can with the red print.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 26, 2010, 10:00:51 AM
I just posted an inquiry on that thread, Ed, about some other brands of pizza sauces (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8592.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8592.0.html)).  As you know, for Chicago deep dish style, I most often supplement my favorite 6 in 1 sauce with diced tomatoes from Glen Muir, but the next time I'm going to try those 'San Marzano' diced tomatoes in the white labeled can.  I seen those exact cans at my local Italian deli and wondered about them.  Your pictures of the contents looked really good. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2010, 10:21:19 AM
Can Somebody please help me with 18 inch calculations ??


That shouldn't be a problem. However, what depth is your pan, is the pan sloping-sided or straight-sided, and do you want to use salt and cream of tartar, and what percent of the total flour blend do you want to use semolina?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on February 26, 2010, 10:53:56 AM
I just posted an inquiry on that thread, Ed, about some other brands of pizza sauces (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8592.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8592.0.html)).  As you know, for Chicago deep dish style, I most often supplement my favorite 6 in 1 sauce with diced tomatoes from Glen Muir, but the next time I'm going to try those 'San Marzano' diced tomatoes in the white labeled can.  I seen those exact cans at my local Italian deli and wondered about them.  Your pictures of the contents looked really good. 

Just to be clear, I didn't take that photo (i usually watermark mine). It came from 'The Nibble' website, where they do an in depth review of those tomatoes :
http://www.thenibble.com/REVIEWS/main/vegetables/san-marzano-tomatoes.asp (http://www.thenibble.com/REVIEWS/main/vegetables/san-marzano-tomatoes.asp)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 26, 2010, 08:07:37 PM
Peter
  The Pan is straight sided and I use salt not cream of tartar. The semolina is at 25 %. Peter Do you use a higher percentage of semolina?
                                                                                                 Thanks, Jimmy
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 26, 2010, 08:25:02 PM
Peter
  Also I forgot to ask you at what temperature and what part of the oven do you bake it in ?      Thanks Jimmy
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2010, 08:41:13 PM
Peter
  The Pan is straight sided and I use salt not cream of tartar. The semolina is at 25 %. Peter Do you use a higher percentage of semolina?
                                                                                                 Thanks, Jimmy

Jimmy,

How deep is the pan?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 26, 2010, 08:42:48 PM
2 inch deep
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2010, 09:46:09 PM
Jimmy,

I used the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html to come up with a dough formulation for your 18" pan and the ingredients you wish to use. The formulation is as follows:

All-Purpose Flour/Semolina Blend* (100%):
Water (47%):
ADY (0.70%):
Salt (0.50%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (18.5%):
Butter/Margarine (1%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (175.2%):
667.55 g  |  23.55 oz | 1.47 lbs
313.75 g  |  11.07 oz | 0.69 lbs
4.67 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
3.34 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
40.05 g | 1.41 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.9 tsp | 2.97 tbsp
123.5 g | 4.36 oz | 0.27 lbs | 9.15 tbsp | 0.57 cups
6.68 g | 0.24 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.41 tsp | 0.47 tbsp
10.01 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.51 tsp | 0.84 tbsp
1169.55 g | 41.25 oz | 2.58 lbs | TF = 0.126875
* The all-purpose flour/semolina blend comprises 500.66 grams (17.66 ounces) all-purpose flour and 166.89 grams (5.89 ounces) semolina flour
Note: For a straight-sided 18"x 2" deep-dish pan with the dough pushed up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2"; nominal thickness factor = 0.125; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

There are others who are far more expert than I on the deep-dish style. However, I generally use semolina at around 25% or less. Also, my deep-dish pizzas are much smaller than 18" so I am not sure what might be the best way to bake an 18" deep-dish pizza. For my deep-dish pizzas I can either use the middle oven rack position and a bake temperature of around 450-475 degrees F or I can use a preheated pizza stone at the middle or lowest oven rack position. My oven is a basic electric oven. Maybe BTB or other expert in the Malnati deep-dish style can give you specific advice on how you might bake your 18" pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 27, 2010, 07:48:01 AM
I don't think there are too many people out there with experience in baking an 18" deep dish pizza.  A 14" is the largest that I've ever made.  Home ovens vary greatly and you probably won't like hearing that for such a huge pizza that baking one that size could take some "trial and error." 

I always bake my Chicago Style deep dish pizzas on a low rack level in the oven, most often on the lowest level to assure a nice degree of doneness or crispness of the crust.  But my electric GE Profile home oven has NO heating elements visible in the oven at all.  Many people, tho, have electric ovens that have heating elements on the bottom of the oven that you see get red hot when heating up the oven.  One with such an oven should use a rack level 2 to 3" above that.  But many of our members report that they successfully bake on the middle rack, however.  If you use an oven with heating elements in the top of the oven that automatically turn on, I'm at a loss to give suggestions on that.  And I haven't baked on a home gas oven in many years, so I don't know if that's relevant to your situation or not.

I normally bake in the range of 450 to 475 degrees F, but because your pizza is so large, I would think a slightly lower range (say around 425) might be better.  And my guesstimate for an 18" would be that it would take from 35 to 55 minutes to cook, which I know is a very big range.  Hopefully you have glass in the oven door and watch it carefully, as well as rotate the pizza once or twice in the process.  It may be difficult, but I would be tempted after 40 minutes or so to pull the pizza out and carefully with a small spatula (like a frosting spatula) or something similar, to lift up the dough a little to see how it's baking underneath.  Hopefully you'll see a light golden color and put it back in the oven for a bit.

If you had your pizza baking at too high a rack level, the top of the pizza and it's topping would bake and darken much faster than the crust underneath.  The heat often bounces off the top of the oven and cooks the top of the pizza before the crust can be thoroughly cooked.  The result could be a near burnt top with an uncooked crust on the bottom.  This usually does not happen when a lower oven rack is used, tho.  But one of our members (Buzz) had a great idea to put some aluminum foil just loosely laid over the top of the pizza for from 1/4th to 1/2 the baking time.

I don't use a pizza stone anymore, but when I did, I put the deep dish pan right on the stone.

Again, I'm sorry to have to say that your baking adventure will involve some degree of trial and error.  Good luck, take pictures, and let us know how things turned out. 

BTW, with using such a large pan (which many ovens won't even hold), do you have a large family, neighborhood, or fraternity house to feed?
                                                                                         
                                                                                          --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on February 27, 2010, 01:08:31 PM
Thanks Pete you are a big help
 BTB ...I typically eat about a half of a 16 inch and cut up the rest and put it in a freezer bag. I used to order a Lou pizza every Saturday for the last 15 years but now I eat it about once every 2 months. I have been making your version for about a year now almost every Saturday but I'm still trying to perfect the crust(it's almost there). BTB I was wondering if you can help me step by step with the dough prep . Do you still use rice flour and if so , how would you adjust the dough calculation that Pete posted above? Do you put the salt together with the ADY in 110 degree water to proof? Also After you pull it out of the fridge how long do you leave it out and do you punch the dough down at all?  . You , Pete and Loowaters are the best and always helpfull. Keep up the great work  .  Thanks much, Jimmy
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on February 28, 2010, 09:09:58 AM
Jimmy, regarding your dough prep.  We've discussed around here a bit about adding the salt to the water when blooming the yeast.  The consensus is don't do it.  If you're using ADY, just bloom it in the water and add the salt to the flour and mix it in.  I don't use any salt in my deep dish pies but do in my thin.


Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ERASMO on February 28, 2010, 09:57:27 AM
lou dough to go
http://www.peapod.com/itemDetail_frame.jhtml?productId=157119&storeId=10&NUM=1267368890184
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ERASMO on March 01, 2010, 06:00:19 PM
Here is the reply I received about the dough to go.

I do have four pizzas on order from lou so I will be receiving a dough ball for free.

Thank you for contacting Lou Malnati's.  As of today, we are
testing the shipping of our Lou-to-Go-Dough.  It is only available with
the purchase of a 4-pizza pack right now, but we are offering the dough
for free through March 19th.  After that, we will determine if, how and
with what products we will ship it in the future.  To order the dough
for shipping, visit:
http://www.tastesofchicago.com/category/469?r=mar1a&utm_source=mar1a&utm
_medium=email&utm_campaign=imageprod.

Thanks for your interest!

Regards,

Mindy Kaplan
Director of Marketing
Malnati Organization, Inc.
3685 Woodhead Dr.
Northbrook, IL  60062
847-562-1814
mkaplan@loumalnatis.com

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ERASMO on March 02, 2010, 07:50:35 AM
http://www.tastesofchicago.com/category/469?r=mar1a&utm_source=mar1a&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=imageprod

Lou to go.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 04, 2010, 10:09:28 AM
I made one of the frozen Lou Malnati's frozen pizzas last night that I recently ordered and received along with the Malnati Dough mentioned above.  The dough will remain in the freezer until we consume some of the pies.  My wife and I loved the pizza as it had been some time since we had a "Lou's" from their pizzeria.  It isn't as good as that in the pizzeria itself, but for us Malnati's pizza lovers who are far, far away from their pizzerias, it is "the next best thing."  I'm not promoting it's purchase as it's a little pricey, but here are some quick thoughts on cooking their frozen pizzas for those who may want to try one.

Keep frozen in their containers inside the plastic wrap.  If you take off the plastic wrap prematurely, a lot of frost may settled all around the pizza, which may possibly affect taste later.  In preparing to cook one, take the frozen pizza out of the aluminum/tin pan (not sure what its made of) and with a paper towel wipe the moisture and frost out of the bottom of the pan.  This is critical as the pizza may not come out well without one doing this.  Then let the aluminum pan air dry for 2 to 4 minutes while you take a small knife and scrape off any frost on the bottom and top of the frozen pizza over the sink.  Put approx. 1/2 Tbsp (or more) of olive oil in the bottom of the pan and coat the bottom of the pan thoroughly.  I use a piece of wax paper to do this with.  Put the frozen pizza back into the pan and put into the refrigerator for 2 to 4 hours (instructions say 2, but I prefer 3 to 4).  Take out 1/2 hour before cooking and leave on the counter while you heat the oven to 425 degrees F.  If you can't wait, the pizza can be cooked from a complete frozen state and still turn out good, but the removal of moisture and oiling of the pan is critical. 

The instructions say bake on the middle rack, but I recommend putting on a rack level one step down from the middle of the oven, or even lower to ensure a more crisp crust.  The instructions say to bake for 35 to 45 minutes, and I baked the one last night for 36 minutes and it was excellent.  My wife and I really enjoyed the taste of Lou's again.  The first three pictures below are of the frozen uncooked pizza and the 4th is after it was baked.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 04, 2010, 10:12:48 AM
Note that Lou's aluminum pans for baking the frozen pizzas are now a dark black color on the outside of the pan.  This, I assume, is to absorb the heat rather than reflect it, which is a good thing.  And note that the pizza crust seems to be a little par-baked.
 
Two things that I will do just slightly different next time is cook it a little longer -- say 45 minutes -- and loosely put a sheet of aluminum foil over the pan for only about 10 minutes (to slow down top browning) while cooking it in the oven.  I remembered too late that in the past I had often undercooked the first pizza from a box as the top and edges of the pizza looked pretty much done, but in fact the crust in the center underneath still could have been cooked a little bit longer.  So cooking a little longer than one may think is often best with this.
                                                                                                  --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on March 04, 2010, 11:57:45 AM
BTB
 When You have a moment can you please answer post 276 ? After you knead the dough what do you do? Thanks Jimmy
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 04, 2010, 02:59:09 PM
Do you still use rice flour and if so , how would you adjust the dough calculation that Pete posted above? Do you put the salt together with the ADY in 110 degree water to proof? Also After you pull it out of the fridge how long do you leave it out and do you punch the dough down at all?
Oh yes, my taste testers have a preference for the pizza dough with a small degree (8%) of rice flour.  That's optional according to one's tastes.  In Peter's formulation above, that would mean 53.4 g of rice flour (8%), 80.1 g of semolina (12%), 534 g of AP (80%).  Most authorities advise NOT to put salt in the water that's used to proof the yeast as it can have an inhibiting affect on the yeast.  And I follow that advise closely.

When the dough is refrigerated (which I do less and less of), I pull it out 1 to 1 and 1/2 hours before baking.  I don't punch it down when either in the refrigerator or after taking it out of the refrigerator, but only in the first few hours after putting together all the ingredients.  And then I do so several times before refrigerating, like every hour or two.

I've been doing more and more "same day dough," though.  After a brief knead, I put the covered dough into a very slightly warmed oven (90 to 100 degrees) for 3/4 to one hour, take out, punch it down, cover again and leave on the counter and over the course of several hours (oh, maybe up 5 or 7 hours) punch it down 2 or 3 times more before rolling or pressing it out in preparation for putting it into the pan, dressing and baking the pizza.

Hope your efforts go well.  We'd like to see that big pizza and how well it cooks up.

                                                                                                                                   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: DKM on March 04, 2010, 09:54:07 PM
Note that Lou's aluminum pans for baking the frozen pizzas are now a dark black color on the outside of the pan.  This, I assume, is to absorb the heat rather than reflect it, which is a good thing.  And note that the pizza crust seems to be a little par-baked.
 
Two things that I will do just slightly different next time is cook it a little longer -- say 45 minutes -- and loosely put a sheet of aluminum foil over the pan for only about 10 minutes (to slow down top browning) while cooking it in the oven.  I remembered too late that in the past I had often undercooked the first pizza from a box as the top and edges of the pizza looked pretty much done, but in fact the crust in the center underneath still could have been cooked a little bit longer.  So cooking a little longer than one may think is often best with this.
                                                                                                  --BTB

One problem I've had with mine is near the end a lot of moisture from the tomatoes started coming out and going down one of the lower sides of the pizza.  This cause that part of the cust to get soggy and stick a little. (yes I oiled the pan first)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 05, 2010, 10:05:43 AM
One problem I've had with mine is near the end a lot of moisture from the tomatoes started coming out and going down one of the lower sides of the pizza.  This cause that part of the cust to get soggy and stick a little. (yes I oiled the pan first)
Dev, I, too did have a somewhat similar issue with the pizza I showed above in that I noticed a little too much unidentified moisture near the crust edge in the cooked pizza as I removed it from the oven.  (You can notice that a little on the bottom of the pizza in the 4th photo above.) That occasionally happened to me in the long ago past with their frozen pizzas, but then disappeared in my experience for a couple of years.  I don't know the source, maybe the tomatoes, but what I learned in the past to do -- and what I did the other night -- was to quickly take a couple of paper napkins out and with the edges of the napkin quickly attempt to absorb much of that moisture/liquid on the pizza (before cutting).  I was careful not to mess up the looks (aesthetics?  ha, ha) of the pizza.  I didn't get it all, but I think most of it and it worked out fine.  The edge of the crust and about 2 to 3 inches inward were all especially crispy and crunchy as I remembered the great Malnati's deep dish pizza to be.

After cutting it on the cutting board, I did not thereafter have a soggy crust anywhere and my wife and I am super sensitive in disliking any degree of sogginess.  But in the past, I had been a little critical of too many soggy pizzas from their frozen pizzas, but I thought their formula and new instructions improved that considerably.  We need to give them feedback that there are still some excessive moisture issues.

Sogginess in the past for me existed prior to their new instructions to remove the moisture and oil the pan (sides, too).  I remember about 7 or 8 years ago down in south Florida we cooked up about 10 of these pizzas at one time and about half of them were stuck solidly to the bottom of the pan and could only be extracted in pieces.  But in all honesty, that was before the instructions said to remove moisture and oil the pans.  We just threw them into the oven as is.  But as you indicated, you oiled the pan, so it should not have been sticking to it.  I'll be looking at that more closely when cooking the remaining pizzas from my freezer.  Do you have any left?

To others, tho, I just want to stress -- as indicated in one of my points in the prior posting -- is to cook the frozen (or semi-frozen) pizza just a little longer than one might think is necessary and consider the short-time foil "cover" technique.  The reason for considering using the aluminum foil cover technique for just 5 or 10 minutes is that you don't otherwise look at the cooked pizza and see that it appears so well done and take it out prematurely before the crust adequately has time to bake.  Just FWIW.

                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on March 05, 2010, 11:27:02 AM
BTB
 On the refrigerated dough , do you let it rise first for 5-6 hours after you knead it and then put it in the fridge and then pull it out and let it rise for an additional 90 minutes?  I just want't to get that crust looking like yours. :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 05, 2010, 01:13:39 PM
Jimmy33, in the early days of my pizzamaking, which was just a couple of years ago, I would let it rise once and after an hour or so (roughly) put it into a plastic bag or covered bowl and refrigerate it either overnight or as long as two days.  So under that scenario it would go into the refrigerator within an hour or two of mixing together. 

I think -- as just an option only -- to let it rise and knock it down several times over several hours before refrigerating has been preferable lately, but if that's not convenient skip and go straight to the refrigerator.  You will generally experience little to no visible rise in the refrigerator, but that is often normal.  Some mix and go straight to the refrigerator immediately after mixing and have been successful with doing that.  I think it preferable to wait 4 - 6 hours to refrigerate, but sooner can work, too.

And take the dough out of the refrigerator and bake within 60 to 90 minutes.  Many of us are anxious to see your pizza, so please get your camera ready.  It's all a learning experience, so don't worry.

                                                                                         --BTB

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jimmy33 on March 05, 2010, 05:41:02 PM
Thanks BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tpassin on March 06, 2010, 01:59:40 PM
BTB
 On the refrigerated dough , do you let it rise first for 5-6 hours after you knead it and then put it in the fridge and then pull it out and let it rise for an additional 90 minutes?  I just want't to get that crust looking like yours. :chef:

I just did my first outing using info from this site, and it came out great.  My friend, after eating leftovers this morning, called it "addictive".  Even though it's been almost 40 years since I left Chicago, this pizza measures up to what I remember - at least, it fills that void that's been missing a real Chicago deep-dish pie.

I'll give some details below (sorry, no pix), but for Jimmy - I made my dough with a 15% seminola/AP blend, and I used a sourdough starter instead of commercial yeast.  Going on my bread-baking experience, I let the bulk dough ferment at room temperature (70 deg F) for maybe 6 or 8 hours, then bagged it and put it into the refrigerator until the next afternoon.  I didn't knead it or punch it down after the initial hand kneading.

When I brought the dough out, it was airy and showed a lot of nice holes.  I let it warm up for an hour and a half, then patted it out into a disk.  I put the disk into my oiled 12-inch cast iron skillet and worked the dough out by hand.  The dough had a lovely feel and spread out very well.  Bringing it up the sides, it did have a mild tendency to retract, but a few minutes of rest took care of that.  I wasn't sure how thick the crust should be, and I ended up with some leftover dough, but the end result seemed about perfect.

I scaled the dough ingredients from Pete-zza's 15-inch recipe at

topic,6480.msg71513.html#msg71513

(sorry, the forum software won't let me insert a full url here)

Here are the scaled amounts -

                       12-inch Pizza      
Ingredient  Baker's |Oz|Tsp
            Percent
flour       100.0%|10.9      
water       47.0% | 5.1      
yeast       (0.7%)|  -  | .6   
salt        (0.5%) |   -  | .3   
olive oil   6.0% | .65      
corn oil    18.5% |2.0      
butter      (1%) |    -   | .6   
sugar       (1.5%) | -   |1.2

The flour was a blend with 15% Bob's Red Mill seminola.  I put the baker's percentages for the teaspoon amounts in parentheses, because I'm not convinced that the conversions from % to tsp are right.  Pete-zza's recipe also had cream of tartar, but I left it out.

For the sourdough (no commercial yeast), I used 3 oz of a 100% hydration starter, and I cut back on the water to compensate for the water in the starter.

For the sauce, I cooked the recipe from the Cook's Illustrated deep dish article (Jan-Feb 2010), using a can of organic ground tomatoes I found at a good price.  The sauce has onion, garlic, oregano, and basil, and olive oil in it.  I drained the tomatoes with a strainer and cooked the sauce down til it was thick, so I didn't end up with a soggy crust.  For cheese, I sliced half a pound of buffalo mozzarella, and about the same of imported provelone.  On top of the cheese, I spread the sausage from three big links of mild italian chicken sausage (my friend eats chicken but wouldn't eat pork sausage), then the sauce, then a few pieces of the sausage links and grated parmesiano reggiano.

To bake, I put the skillet right onto my baking stone - I have a double layer of stone for baking bread, and it's too much trouble to take out if I don't have to.  From a preheat of 500 deg F, I set the temperature to 450 and baked for 25 minutes.  I had the convection fan on, but I doubt that made any difference.  At the end of the 25 minutes, the crust that I could see was a nice medium golden brown, and I took the pie out of the oven.

Next time, I'll probably go to 25% seminola, just to see if I like the difference, and maybe cook it a little darker (not that it *needed* any improvement!).

So thanks, Pete-zza and everyone else for sharing your knowledge so freely!

Tom
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: scottm on March 08, 2010, 09:50:49 AM
I'm new to Chicago style pizza but gave it a try this weekend. Please excuse the cheese on top - I wanted to make sure it would go over well with the family!

Even though the crust doesn't look quite as brown as other pizzas here I consider it a success! Taste was great, crust was moderately crisp and the depth of the pie was new to myself and my family (the only other deep pizza i've even had was a Pizza Hut Priazzo a number of years ago). I attribute the lack of browning to the minimal rest period after making the dough. It was only in the fridge for maybe 10 hours and I was rather impatient about letting the oven get to and stay at temperature for an extended period. I did place the cast iron pan on a pizza stone to help with heat transfer though.

Thanks for this great recipe! I did it again Sunday afternoon for some friends and they were completely wowed by it!

Scott
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on March 09, 2010, 08:20:53 AM
Scott, personally I think the color is just fine.  I would be more inclined to tell you that the lack of browning that you were looking for came from pulling the pie out a bit early.  That's part of what happens when you top with cheese.  That cheese browns up so you get it out as you don't want the cheese to burn but the rest of the pie may not be cooked to the level you'd like when you have to yank it from the oven.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Aldo on March 20, 2010, 11:24:00 PM
Hey BTB - we must have been on the same page!  I too had jonesed for a Malnati's and also recently had a 'Lou-to-go' shipped to the house.  It was that taste -- not the absolute best thing n the world, but it had that distinctly wonderful Lou malnati taste!  (Agreed, nothing beats sitting in the Lincolnwood dining room enjoying a fresh pie with the ambiance of Bears uniforms hanging nxt to you, but frozen in the mail is stil a treat.)  I wish I'd have followed your suggestions - but I hadn't noticed this thread until now.  How funny we both were having the Lou-to-go thing at about the same time, though!

I expect to be trying a 30# box of Grande 50/50 mozz/prov shredded soon, and I'll report on the flavor in both stuffed and thin adventures in the weeks ahead - hopefully with pictures!

Thanks you all,

A
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: CDNpielover on April 23, 2010, 01:23:54 AM
hi,

i want to try my hand at a Malnati's pie, but i'm not sure what the "best" recipe is.  I've done some searching, and there seem to be several different recipes.  can anyone point me towards the "best" recipe?  Also, the first post in this tread refers to the "malnati's thread" but I don't know to which thread that refers, since there are so many of 'em  :chef:

thanks
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on April 23, 2010, 07:29:53 AM
Here's the earliest mention of semolina that BTB refers to in the first post of this thread:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg54563.html#msg54563

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 23, 2010, 08:34:24 AM
. . . i'm not sure what the "best" recipe is.
"Best" is always relative.  Reflecting my most current preference, here's a recipe that I used recently for a 14" diameter straight-sided pan that is 2" deep, the dough going up the side 1.5", a TF of .125 and a 1.5% bowl residue:
 
Flour (100%):  436.26 g  |  15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (45%):  196.32 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
ADY (.75%):  3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1%):  4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.82 tsp | 1.94 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  52.35 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.63 tsp | 3.88 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.53 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  6.54 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (172.25%): 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
    *The Flour Blend can be (1) all KAAP flour, or (2) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.) and
      20% semolina (87.25 g/3 oz.), or (3) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.), 12% semolina
      (52.35 g/1.85 oz.) and 8% rice flour (34.9 g/1.23 oz.)
Note: 1/2 tsp of Baker's NFDM was added, but is optional (used for color and tender crust affect)
 
While I generally use King Arthur AP flour, that's just a personal choice.  I generally bake on a low rack for 35 to 45 minutes at around 450 degrees F, but that depends on the characteristics of one's oven.  The butter component can either be melted and cooled or very soft and mixed in.  And of course avoid overworking the dough.  Like with many things, it's worth experimenting with the various ingredients to see what you like.

                                                                                 --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on April 24, 2010, 02:29:09 PM
BTB,
Just read your last post using butter ect. Could you give me some hints on working the dough? I hand mix for a few minutes if that, bench rise for 2-3 hours put in frig overnight, punch down and bench rise 3 hours or so until room temp, punch down again and put in pan.  Am I over working the dough?  thanks for any help and your semolina idea sometime ago is the best..
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on April 24, 2010, 03:14:51 PM
BTB,
Just read your last post using butter ect. Could you give me some hints on working the dough? I hand mix for a few minutes if that, bench rise for 2-3 hours put in frig overnight, punch down and bench rise 3 hours or so until room temp, punch down again and put in pan.  Am I over working the dough?  thanks for any help and your semolina idea sometime ago is the best..

I'm sure BTB will have his own answer for this,
but I'll throw in my 2 cents worth and say...
 
Everything sounds right except the 2nd and 3rd rise after the refrigeration is probably not necessary.
Getting the dough up to room temp before baking is probably the most you'll want to do after the overnight ferment in the fridge. Most times, I press the dough out into the pan before it even gets to room temp.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 28, 2010, 10:03:15 AM
Flavorman, Ed's comments about not overworking the dough are right on in my estimation.  I generally always handmix and knead by hand and do the mixing and kneading for around 1 or 1 and 1/2 minutes to a max. of around 4 to 5 minutes.  If the dough comes together nicely without it being too oily, I'll just knead for 1 and 1/2 minutes to 2 minutes.  But if it seems too oily (which unpredictably often happens), I'll continue on for several minutes more and/or add a bit of flour to get the dough to the state that it should be (not too oily).  Trial and error is best here.  I only punch down any rise once or twice (or more) BEFORE refrigeration and never afterwards.  And (again) I am doing less and less refrigeration of pizza dough as I've found "same day" dough in recent trials to be as good or better, at least to me, but try it both ways and see.  It's a personal preference thing.     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on April 28, 2010, 04:33:49 PM
Thanks VCB and BTB...I am going to try 1 day dough, make early in the day let rise, punch down and in the frig for a few hours and see what happens...I will let you all know in a few days if I think the frig rise is necessary flavor or crust crisp wise...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Deacon Volker on April 29, 2010, 05:22:16 PM
We fashioned our deep-dish dough after the Malnati product, though I'm sure we've taken some huge liberties with their recipe.  (Ours has significant butter and eggs )  I really am pleased with how it turns out in our XLT oven though and our customers have seemed very pleased.

As far as technique, we mix our dough then cut into balls, then run through a sheeter to get them rolled out to pan diam. with the least amount of working of the dough we can.  After the dough is placed into a well sprayed pan, they are racked overnight, and held up to 5 days with zero discernible breakdown in dough quality.  We set out our pans at least 2 hours before service and in that time the dough will start to activate really nicely getting quiet puffy.  At order, we pull the edge in to form a nice, but not too thick and bread-y rim, then dock down the bottoms slightly, not too much though as you want a nice base. 

The pies are cheesed, then sent through the oven for one trip (6-6:30 minutes at 465), they are then dressed, sauced and put back in for one more full trip through. 

I agree with other replies that NOT working your dough excessively is one of the keys, as is getting it cooled quickly and allowing 2-3 hours of pre-use activation time. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on May 14, 2010, 03:34:25 PM
VCB AND BTB,

Back in town and tried the one day dough per instructions..I have to say we prefer the 2 day dough...the 1 day raise seemed a much more stiffer dough and baked o.k but we will stick with the 2 day...thanks for the advice, comments and experiments...keep up the great work for all us deep dish lovers....
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on May 14, 2010, 03:48:37 PM
VCB AND BTB,

Back in town and tried the one day dough per instructions..I have to say we prefer the 2 day dough...the 1 day raise seemed a much more stiffer dough and baked o.k but we will stick with the 2 day...thanks for the advice, comments and experiments...keep up the great work for all us deep dish lovers....

I just celebrated 'Pizza de Mayo' (for us, that was May 12) with a large contingent of deep dish pizza fans,
and had the opportunity to let the refrigerated dough come closer to room temp (on day 2) before pressing out into the pan
and I'm on board with others here who say this makes a better crust when you bake it.

So for me, my optimum dough is:
1) combine ingredients into a smooth dough ball with minimal kneading.
2) rise for 1-2 hours in a warm place
3) stick in a ziploc overnight in the fridge
4) take bag of dough out of fridge and let it come to room temp on the counter (1-2 hours) before pressing into pan.

I'll be posting photos from Pizza de Mayo eventually. I made 5 pizzas, including a garlic-crust (3rd attempt) spinach/garlic pie and my first attempt at a crustless deep dish 'meatza' (tasted good, not perfect; things were learned, next one will be better).

here's a preview: (meatza in progress)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on May 19, 2010, 02:42:31 PM
Quick questions, don't bite me.



As you can tell from the user name, I'm in the Chi, I do allot of cooking but I rarely try to imitate good food if I can get it locally, and I live 5 minutes away from the original Lou's location so it's taken me a while to get around to trying my hand at Lou's crust.   If  I'm cooking pizza it's my own recipe for a classic Italian, Neapolitan Pizza.

To the point I will get. 

I see lots of recipes on here, and the one on the main page just didn't look right.  Which recipe is #1, most used, highly rated etc for Lou's.

If you could point me towards the recipe and method that is most successful I would be very great full!

Mick. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 19, 2010, 06:06:23 PM
Mick, I'll try not to bite, but . . . most of us on this site "cringe" when asked for the "best" or #1 recipe of a particular style or variety.  You'll have to admit that is problematic.  Many of us, myself included, are super happy with many of the recipes we've tried and return to them time and time again as expressed in numerous places on these threads.  Take some time and visit them.

We're all looking for Chicago Style pizza Valhalla and that search will unlikely never end.  My answer (and I think most) would be, . . . not going to like it . . . trial and error.  Try some of those you see here. . . add and detract ingredients as the baker sees fit.  I and my family and friendly tasters have been super satisfied with those recipes that I (and others) have indicated above.  But other colleagues' recipes are really good, too.  Recognize that Neapolitan is vastly, vastly, vastly different from Chicago Style deep dish, as is pretty apparent from the threads. Not intending to diminish your enthusiasm, but it's up to the reader's determination as to which recipe is "most used," "highly rated," "#1," etc.

                                                                                      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on May 20, 2010, 10:25:33 AM
I don't buy that to be fair. 

It's either like the original or not.

So, personally, in your opinion, which recipe is the closest to the original!

And yes, I know the Neapolitan is very far removed from a deep dish crust, I was simply pointing out what I make!

I have been lurking for a while BTW, I have read most of the larger threads on the topic and I find it odd that the recipe on the front page is so removed from the recipes in here which seem to work great from the pictures people have posted. I'm not in the market for wasting food, so I'd prefer a good starting point. 



 :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on May 20, 2010, 10:52:10 AM
I don't buy that to be fair. 

It's either like the original or not.

So, personally, in your opinion, which recipe is the closest to the original!

And yes, I know the Neapolitan is very far removed from a deep dish crust, I was simply pointing out what I make!

I have been lurking for a while BTW, I have read most of the larger threads on the topic and I find it odd that the recipe on the front page is so removed from the recipes in here which seem to work great from the pictures people have posted. I'm not in the market for wasting food, so I'd prefer a good starting point. 



 :chef:

Mick, I appreciate your desire to 'get to the point' so to speak, but you should know that some of us have spent weeks or months looking thru each others' postings on here to get a sense of where other people in this forum were going with their recipes.
So, I could give you a place to start, but the reality is, it will depend on what you're looking to achieve and what your preferences are.
Many on here have been experimenting with the addition of semolina flour (hence this thread you're posting in), but I've found I prefer to make my pizzas without it. When I started on here, I wanted to reproduce something you'd find at Lou Malnati's or Pizzeria Uno, and eventually stumbled on one of Loo Waters' formulations that got me pretty close to what I wanted. 

So, for what it's worth, this is the thread where I started looking:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4070.0.html)
It has Loo's Malnati dough formula, which may have been modified slightly in future threads. It should get you in the ballpark.
You might also locate something printable if you look thru threads I've posted in.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on May 20, 2010, 02:31:53 PM
I appreciate the amount of work you have done, I have read ALLOT of the posts on this forum! 

Think of me as standing on the shoulders of giants  :)


I recently started adding semolina to some of my larger pizzas as well, which is one reason I posted in this thread!

Thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: firefly765 on June 12, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
Can a complete pie be made a day or 2 ahead of time, refrigerated, (complete) then cooked a few days later? Or would this be soggy?
Would i be better off cooking, refrigerating, then reheating at a later time?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on June 12, 2010, 08:45:50 PM
Can a complete pie be made a day or 2 ahead of time, refrigerated, (complete) then cooked a few days later? Or would this be soggy?
Would i be better off cooking, refrigerating, then reheating at a later time?

I wouldn't recommend building an uncooked deep dish pizza until you are ready to bake it.
If you put the pizza together in the pan and then keep the unbaked pizza in the refrigerator for a few days, the dough will continue to rise/ferment in the pan and you probably won't get the results you're looking for.

I have baked entire pizzas and then let them cool and then wrapped slices in foil and stuck them in the fridge for later reheating,
so you can definitely do that and the pizza should still taste pretty good.
Depending on your pizza's ingredients, the flavor will either be slightly better or not quite as good as the first day it was baked.

Lou Malnati's par-bakes their pizzas when they ship them frozen, so I suppose it's possible to partially bake one and then finish it later, but you'd probably have to do some trial and error to figure out how long to pre-bake and how long to post-bake.

Since the difference between first-time baking (about 40 min. @ 450 deg. ) and reheating (about 20 min. @ 350-400 deg.) is so small, you might want to consider baking it fresh if you are able.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: RobDude on June 16, 2010, 03:10:34 PM
I've got my first attempt with Semolina sitting in the fridge as we speak :)

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: android on August 24, 2010, 11:10:53 PM
thanks for this thread, i've had great success the few times i've tried to make this. once i got a proper deep dish pan, everything came together for me. here's to deep dish!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on September 02, 2010, 12:55:19 PM
BTB i made this recipe using cornmeal for semolina and i found out i needed around another 15% hydration to get it to be moist enough to work.  used the recipe in the first post
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: sonofapizza on September 02, 2010, 02:29:29 PM
forgive me as to be "West Coast" enough to call that pie the "BOMB"!. 
I am intimidated to try a CHi-town style yet.  Yours looks amazing. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 02, 2010, 03:37:12 PM
BTB i made this recipe using cornmeal for semolina and i found out i needed around another 15% hydration to get it to be moist enough to work.  used the recipe in the first post
c0mpl3x  -  Chicago deep dish hydration is usually in the range of 45 to 50%.  Hydration in the range of 60 to 65% would be very unusual and none of the primary Chicago deep dish pizzerias make their pizzas with such high hydration, nor do they utilize corn meal in their recipe.  But what's important is what you and yours like and if the corn meal and high hydration make for a product that you love, then that's all that's important.  I am a big fan, however, of using a little semolina as part of the flour mixture and am not a fan of corn meal except in some great thin crust recipes.  But keep up your experimenting and make the best pizza that you can.                                  --BTB

P.S.  I've had the summer off from making some great pizzas but am looking forward to returning home in the fall and getting back to some good pizzamaking again (like this one).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on September 02, 2010, 05:27:41 PM
i redid the recipe using my new salter scale that came in, and indeed it's 1g =/- .5g

it came out great!  only i used about 5-6% margarine instead of 1% to get more of the 'pizzeria uno' taste and it came out pretty good.  i used a forced rise by placing a covered 2qt stainless bowl outside in the sun inside of the grill (temp gauge read 102ºf) and let it sit for an hour.  it was a hair under doubled so i pressed it out into my pan after i sprayed it with canola spray, and popped it in the oven for a hair under 4mins to give it some 'spring'.  worked out alright.  i took it out and cheesed it (6 parts mozz 2 parts swiss one part cheddar) and being that all i had was shredded at the time, i popped it back in for another 4 mins to get the cheese melted down a bit.  sauced it on one half, and used diced pepperoni and sliced mushrooms on the other, sauced everything, and topped it off with shredded asiago.  it baked at 450 for i believe for 19 minutes, not counting the par and cheese bake.   came out great.  used my own sauce that is a very robust and thick tomato sauce/paste mix, but wasn't overpowering on the pizza.      gave it a sprinkle of gia russa parmesan cheese when it came out to grease blot and most everyone loved it (always have the naysayer critics!)

i made 17ozs of dough for a 1.5" high crust in a 12" straight side cake pan.  worked out great, but is very thin for the tastes.  oh and BTB i used white fine ground cornmeal from a local mill.   very hard to notice, and very subtle in the texture
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 03, 2010, 11:17:26 AM
c0mpl3x, your pizza sounded very good.  I often use much more than 1% butter now, too.  Next time grab your digital camera and share the pictures of the pizza with us so that we can see what it looked like.
                                                                                     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on September 03, 2010, 02:24:28 PM
c0mpl3x, your pizza sounded very good.  I often use much more than 1% butter now, too.  Next time grab your digital camera and share the pictures of the pizza with us so that we can see what it looked like.
                                                                                     --BTB

i have to use my phone as of late, and it wouldn't let me save them when i did.  idk what was going on  >:(
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on September 04, 2010, 01:28:58 AM
made a 2.5 day dough and took it into work tonight.  took about 13 minutes of cooking in the oven, the first 4 or so were cheese and dough only.  the pic of that i forgot to save (doh!)  but i have a final pic of the last slice left.   everyone LOVED it and now there is a sauce can with a hole in the lid labeled 'friday deep dish fund' and i already have $10 in it.

12" wide, about 1 3/4" high.  used 14ozs of local store brand mozz (whole milk) and it has such a soft creamy taste it is simply mouth watering on it's own.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Aldo on September 05, 2010, 01:54:04 PM
Hey "firefly765"

You asked:

Quote
Can a complete pie be made a day or 2 ahead of time, refrigerated, (complete) then cooked a few days later? Or would this be soggy?
Would i be better off cooking, refrigerating, then reheating at a later time?

As to pan, I haven't tried.  But as to stuffed, I've done that many times now --with fine results.  Usually I bake a pie and take it to work, where a work friend takes it home in the pan, re-heats, and eats.  So far, I've heard no complaints.  Some pies have sat in fridges, partially baked, for a few days.  I took one from the fridge that way, re-heated at a lower temperature, and it was just fine.  I normally bake stuffed pies at between 400 and 450.  When I partially bake them, my goal is to bake it enough to harden the crust (i.e., et the crust to stop rising.)  Then I suggest re-heating at a lower temp for a longer time -- the 'slow and low' method.

With pan pies it may be different.  I think since there's more sauce on top of a pan pie, you might want to think about the dehydration factor -- in other words, cooking twice could really dry out -- rather than make soggy -- your pie.  of course, I haven't written to just making a pie, leaving it unbaked, and then cooking it a few days later.  Frankly, I wouldn't be inclined to even try to do that, because I would think the water in the sauce would start seeping inside the dough, making it less the texture I expect in the end, and the dough wouldn't stop rising, perhaps.  But if you try, please post results.

Thanks, and good luck.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on September 12, 2010, 09:42:22 PM
did it again this time at work.  sweet italian sausage was the topping.  14oz of mozz, and half jo-de/stanislaus sauce to half 'so natural' brand diced tomatoes.  sprinkled about 2oz of block ground pecorino romano on top.  4.4 minute parbake with cheese, another 6.2 with the sausage/romano/sauce

could have baked it another minute or two, but we got slammed with orders and i ran out of room in the oven.

this is still the malnati recipe from the first post, using cornmeal in place of semolina.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: wallstangel on October 03, 2010, 03:17:30 PM

Wow, your pizza looks amazing!  Thank you for posting the recipe.  However, I have a quick question. Does the type of oil make a big difference?  I'm confused as to what oil produces the best outcome.  I see some using vegetable, some olive, some corn, some canola, and now yours appears to be a blend.  Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 03, 2010, 09:58:54 PM
A blend of corn and classic olive works best with this type of dough.  You can tinker all you like with it, that's part of the fun.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on October 05, 2010, 11:26:50 AM
Hey guys,

After spending the better part of a year perfecting my Lehmann NY-style dough, I am ready to dig into Chicago-style dough. I was mostly inspired by the Classic Lou that I ate at Malnati's last Saturday while staying in Chicago. Anyway, I just have a few questions before making my first dough. I've sifted through this entire thread, but haven't specifically found the answers I'm looking for.

1. @BTB How do you currently mix your dough ingredients?  Are you still doing an autolyse, and, if so, do you think it is critical to the success of your Malnati dough formulation?

2. Also @BTB How much butter are you using in your Malnati recipe these days?  If it's more than 1%, are you decreasing the corn and olive oil amounts to compensate?

3. Should I use EVOO or classic OO when making a Chicago-style dough?

Thanks very much!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on October 05, 2010, 12:15:09 PM
1. @BTB How do you currently mix your dough ingredients?  Are you still doing an autolyse, and, if so, do you think it is critical to the success of your Malnati dough formulation?

further up in this thread, I talk about what I usually do:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg98384.html#msg98384 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg98384.html#msg98384)
Quote
So for me, my optimum dough is:
1) combine ingredients into a smooth dough ball with minimal kneading.
2) rise for 1-2 hours in a warm place
3) stick in a ziploc overnight in the fridge
4) take bag of dough out of fridge and let it come to room temp on the counter (1-2 hours) before pressing into pan.
It's not critical to refrigerate the dough, especially if you're making it the same day, but you definitely benefit from letting the dough get at least one rise in before you punch it down and press it out into the pan.

2. Also @BTB How much butter are you using in your Malnati recipe these days?  If it's more than 1%, are you decreasing the corn and olive oil amounts to compensate?

I don't use any butter in mine, but the 'butter-crust' is basically a liberal brushing of melted butter (possibly margarine) on top of the dough after it's been pressed out into the pan. Some in this forum have actually incorporated melted butter into their dough formulations.

3. Should I use EVOO or classic OO when making a Chicago-style dough?

I would use regular/classic Olive Oil for deep dish if you are using it. It's mainly about the smoke-point being higher in a more refined oil.
Extra Virgin Olive Oil does have more flavor, but (probably because of this) will burn at lower temps and is not really meant for high-heat applications, no matter how much Rachael Ray tells you.
I personally use a 50/50 mix of corn and olive oil in my dough.

Hope this helps.
A lot of this info has been covered in other threads, but I do understand it is sometimes hard to find it all.
Keep digging! :-)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 05, 2010, 02:54:07 PM
1. @BTB How do you currently mix your dough ingredients?  Are you still doing an autolyse, and, if so, do you think it is critical to the success of your Malnati dough formulation?

2. Also @BTB How much butter are you using in your Malnati recipe these days?  If it's more than 1%, are you decreasing the corn and olive oil amounts to compensate?

3. Should I use EVOO or classic OO when making a Chicago-style dough?
Cup-O-Pizza,  I am a determined hand mixer of deep dish dough, except when I use my food processor for some cracker crust types.  And I am irrevocably committed (old-fashioned, I know) to mixing most doughs by hand just with a wooden spoon.  And I swear by it.  I prefer doing autolyse but I'm often so busy doing various styles of pizzas for my guests that I too often by-pass it (as well as forget it sometimes).  I prefer it, but I will not say that it is that critical to the success of the dough formulation.  Over time, experiment and see what you think.
                                                                     
I generally do 6% butter these days.  See the posting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11855.msg110385.html#msg110385 .  I did decrease the oil a bit as you will notice there and decreased the water (i.e., hydration) as the butter contains upwards of 20% or so of water.   

I think classic OO (even light OO) is best, but on occasion have run out of it and used my wife's EVOO and it was pretty good also. 

BTW, which Malnati's location did you recently go to?  Some are great and some are . . . less than that.

Best of luck with your pizzamaking adventures.  You'll have a lot of fun with in (just get a bigger belt).

                                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on October 05, 2010, 03:18:52 PM
Thanks for the replies:)

BTB, I went to the Malnati's on N Wells Street in the River North area in downtown Chicago. I thought the pie I had there was top notch.

I'll post pics of my Malnati pie, if it's presentable:)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on October 09, 2010, 08:24:13 AM
I made a vatiation of BTB's Malnati recipe last night.  I don't think it was too bad, for a first effort!  That said, there were a few things I think could have been better.  For one, I just sort of guessed at the topping amounts.  The layer of mozzarella slices didn't seem substantial enough.  I did a single layer of slices and there just wasn't as much gooey cheese as the Malnati's pie I ate at the restaurant last weekend.  Also, I think I may have used too much sauce and too little italian sausage.  Finally, I think I may have overcooked it slightly.  I cooked it at 450F on the bottom rack of my gas oven for about 30 minutes.  I think pulling it five minutes earlier may have led to a lighter, more biscuit-like crust.  The crust was a little hard around the edges and especially at the top of the outer rim.  On the other hand, the flavor was fantastic!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on October 10, 2010, 03:46:30 PM
BTB,

I've made your recipe now probably 25 times and its great.  I'm getting a feel for balancing the ingredients, the oven, and so forth.  My pans are old, blackened, and 14" slope pans.  I find in my oven that I'm baking at 400F with a stone on the bottom rack.  My friends tend toward the combo.  What I've been finding is that in order to prevent the pie from being too watery, I'm doing the following:

1.  Saute the mushrooms ahead of time.  This improves the flavor and reduces the moisture

2.  Saute the sausage.  Just curious as to how much sausage you're using on a 14" pie.  I find that browning it off slightly prevents extra grease and moisture in the pie, but am curious about trying to get it right in the traditional method or is this impractical with a pie with mushroom, onion, green pepper, sausage and pepperoni?

3.  I'm using about 1# of low moisture, part skim mozzarella on a 14" pie.

4.  1 28oz can 6 in 1, well strained through a collander (lots of puree and smaller stuff ends up in the lower bowl, recycled into other dishes), 1 28 oz can of Cento italian tomatoes, crushed, well drained.

3.  Baking for around 38 minutes.  This seems to crisp up the crust, and give it a good golden character.  The rim of the crust is a little brown.

Thoughts, suggestions?

David
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 10, 2010, 08:45:10 PM
Looks like you're doing things just fine and like you express, you've gotten a feel for what you like and the equipment you have to get a finished product to your liking. 

To nitpick it a bit, I'm someone that likes to cook hotter and faster.  If I'm using my stone, I preheat it on the lowest rack (I have an exposed element) at 550* and drop to 475* when the pie goes in.  I don't cook a 14" much more than 20 mins.  Marc Malnati said in one of the many videos I've seen that he cooks until the sides pull away from the pan.  Now I've found that to be too soon to pull it but I don't leave it in much longer than that.  I like the crust when it's golden but not really browning too much.  I don't like it too dry.

I use raw sausage and I don't think I'll ever deviate from that.  Regarding the other toppings, you've got a lot going on with a lot of moisture coming, obviously, from those mushrooms and even more from the onion and green pepper.  Put those in a strainer and sprinkle a bit of salt on them to draw the moisture out.

1 lb. of cheese, or close to it, for a 14" is exactly what I've always used.  Like you, I use low moisture, part skim mozz.  Mixing it up with some whole milk mozz or provolone can be really good, too.

When it comes to the tomatoes you're using, you've got two great products that stand alone just fine, so I wouldn't combine them.  When I use Cento tomatoes, because they're in puree, I'll remove the cores and de-seed, then hand crush two 28 oz. cans and return them to the puree.  Almost all of that will go on the 14".  There will be a fair amount of left over puree.  I wouldn't use the 6 in 1's with it unless it's all I have.  Save the 6 in 1's for other types of pies or for adding when you have a lesser tomato for this type of pizza.  If all you have is, say, Hunts, using the 6 in1's will definitely brighten those up.  If you can get your hands on Malnati's tomatoes (random cut tomatoes from their supplier, San Benito, just like they use, available at their stores), one 28 oz. can is perfect for a 14" or two 10" pies.  I add only salt, pepper, extra virgin olive oil, and a small amount of crushed, fresh garlic.

Like I said, I'm just kinda nitpicking and explaining what I do vs. what you do.  I'm not saying what I do is really any better just different.  It seems you've done enough pizzas to realize what you're doing is good work.  If you make some changes let us know.

Loo



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on October 11, 2010, 07:51:44 AM
Loo, you use all the thin puree from the Cento's?  I'd be soupy if I did that.  As for baking, my pies come out with the crust looking in color like Cup-o-pizza's 2nd photo in post 29.  --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 11, 2010, 09:02:42 AM
Actually, no.  Once I get the tomatoes crushed (I like kinda large chunks) and squeezed to get rid of some water, I'll throw them in a bowl and then I start adding the puree back in and with two cans now crushed I'd guess the puree of one can might be used, if even all of that.  I should have clarified that a bit better.  Good question and thanks for asking it.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 11, 2010, 09:25:29 AM
FWIW, in my experience 20 minutes is too short for a 14" diameter deep dish pizza.  And I recall on a number of occasions when dining at Malnati's, the waitress indicating to me and my group that the 14" would take a good deal longer to bake than my usual 9".  To me, at least, crust for a 14" does not get adequately done in that short a time. 
 
But as one often says, "ovens differ, so watch the pizza carefully."  If the toppings or edges of the crust darken early, it could mean you have it on too high a rack in a home oven (a problem that does not exist in a commercial oven like those at Malnati's) or even too high a temperature.  The placement of foil on top for a short while (the Buzz technique) is a good home oven solution in order to assure better baking of the crust underneath.  I've heard more comments on deep dish threads about people saying they "should have kept the deep dish pizza in just a little long longer so that the crust could have baked a little more."  On the other hand, one has to be cautious of burning the crust, too.  Trial and error is the best teacher fortunately or unfortunately.
 
And people's tastes in tomato products are widespread and different.  Hunt's and Cento's are in last place in my estimation, but many think otherwise as some indicate here.  Hunt's came in first place in one organization's taste testing a number of years ago and Cento's came in last place in another's.  Go figure on both IMO.  My tomato products of choice for deep dish after much taste testing and experimentation with most all the different brands is 6 in 1's with Muir Glen diced tomatoes (see picture below).  This combination, to me at least, gets close (but not exact) to a Malnati's pizza.  In any event, my taste testers put it in first place.  A picture of a couple of pieces of my home made pizza looks very close to that served at their restaurant, I think. 
 
And I, too, only use uncooked sausage on my deep dish pizzas and it tastes much better that way.  And that's the way its done at all the major Chicago pizzerias.  But many pizzamakers are reluctant to do so, I know.
 
But different likes, dislikes, techniques, tastes and preferences are what makes the world go around, right?
 
I bought a "6-pack" of the special Malnati's tomatoes recently, but haven't had a chance to try them out yet and won't for a number of weeks yet until I return to Florida.
 
David, your pizza looked good and it'll even be better with more experience under your belt.  One minor suggestion is to make your crust a lot thinner in the pan, both the sides and the bottom.  Most people unfamiliar with Chicago Style deep dish are surprised to learn when they eat one in Chicago that it really is only a little thicker than say Chicago Style thin crust pizzas.  Many New York thin crust pizzas are even thicker than a Chicago Style deep dish pizza.
                                                                             --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on October 11, 2010, 09:30:18 AM
BTB, my crust thickness is pretty good, averaging .125 - .187"  I'll have to try the Muir Glenn tomatoes.  Still curious as to how much sausage you're using on a 14".  --db
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 11, 2010, 10:08:04 AM
IMO the picture makes it look a little too thick, but if you're satisfied, that's what's important and like I said that's minor.  I often don't use all the dough that a formulation provides for. As for sausage (or even most toppings), I am not good at measuring how much I used and that hasn't been a priority to me.  I "eye-ball" amounts of toppings a lot and I think most people do after getting a lot of experience under their belt.  After the dough is pressed in (and I am assured it's not too thick and dispose of too much dough), then the cheese, and then I spread the sausage out much like has been seen on all the Malnati videos.  And then further dress the pizza.  Over time, I'm sure you will try things in various different ways and settle on what you and your's like the best.
                                                                                                   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on October 11, 2010, 10:14:14 AM
BTB, which photo?  I haven't posted any in a while.  Here's an older pic.  It's not your recipe, and its too much dough.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 11, 2010, 10:29:58 AM
David, you are absolutely right.  I'm having a difficult morning.  I guess I got mix up with some pictures above from others.  Now I'm not certain whose I'm talking about.  My bad.  I better go do some yard work.  BTW, nice guitars on your site.  Unfortunately my Martin D-35 is collecting dust, but was used a lot in my former Oklahoma City days some years ago.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on October 11, 2010, 09:52:06 PM
compl3x
looks good were you satified with the cheese? Did it  melt through what type is it ? still looks a bit firm in sidecut pic? or just deceiving?
Where abouts are you located I am in B county NJ and you mentioned Nanuet what was that 1?
thanks john
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on October 12, 2010, 03:05:04 AM
cheese was fully melted.  giant eagle part skim mozz it's 3.47/lb but the BEST mozz ive EVER had. i vaca'd in nanuet.  i live north of pittsburgh
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Vindii on October 17, 2010, 07:26:33 PM
"Best" is always relative.  Reflecting my most current preference, here's a recipe that I used recently for a 14" diameter straight-sided pan that is 2" deep, the dough going up the side 1.5", a TF of .125 and a 1.5% bowl residue:
 
Flour (100%):  436.26 g  |  15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (45%):  196.32 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
ADY (.75%):  3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1%):  4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.82 tsp | 1.94 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  52.35 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.63 tsp | 3.88 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.53 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  6.54 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (172.25%): 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
    *The Flour Blend can be (1) all KAAP flour, or (2) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.) and
      20% semolina (87.25 g/3 oz.), or (3) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.), 12% semolina
      (52.35 g/1.85 oz.) and 8% rice flour (34.9 g/1.23 oz.)
Note: 1/2 tsp of Baker's NFDM was added, but is optional (used for color and tender crust affect)
 
While I generally use King Arthur AP flour, that's just a personal choice.  I generally bake on a low rack for 35 to 45 minutes at around 450 degrees F, but that depends on the characteristics of one's oven.  The butter component can either be melted and cooled or very soft and mixed in.  And of course avoid overworking the dough.  Like with many things, it's worth experimenting with the various ingredients to see what you like.

                                                                                 --BTB

If I am going to try this recipe using IDY instead of ADY do I use the same amount or do I need to adjust?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 18, 2010, 06:10:42 AM
If I am going to try this recipe using IDY instead of ADY do I use the same amount or do I need to adjust?

Reduce the yeast by about 1/3 when adjusting from ADY to IDY.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Vindii on October 18, 2010, 12:43:05 PM
Reduce the yeast by about 1/3 when adjusting from ADY to IDY.

Thanks Loo.

Another quick question.  I'm making a 14 pie (first deep dish) and was wondering how much sausage most of you use?  1 lb for a 14" sound right?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 18, 2010, 03:45:25 PM
IMO 1 lb. is too much. I went back to the patty discussion here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4226.msg35242.html#msg35242 and saw that I used 8oz. on a 12".  Try 11-12 oz. for a 14".
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2010, 03:51:31 PM
I used 8oz. on a 12".  Try 11-12 oz. for a 14".

On a proportionate basis, if 8 ounces is a good number for a 12" pizza, the amount to use for the 14" size would be (7 x 7)/(6 x 6) x 8 = 10.89 ounces, or roughly 11 ounces.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Vindii on October 18, 2010, 04:16:29 PM
Thanks guys.  I've never seen this much math come into cooking until I came around here.  Great site.

I should have some pics of my first pie tonight.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on October 18, 2010, 04:17:43 PM
IMO 1 lb. is too much. I went back to the patty discussion here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4226.msg35242.html#msg35242 and saw that I used 8oz. on a 12".  Try 11-12 oz. for a 14".

I recently made a 14" deep dish and had purchased 1.5 lb package of raw italian links.
There were 6 links in the package and I only needed 4 to cover the pizza.

So yeah, you could use 1 lb (16 oz) for full-patty-effect, or as the others suggest, 11-12 oz should sufficiently cover the bottom.  
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: musthavepizza on October 19, 2010, 08:34:13 PM
Here are a couple of pics of my BTB reci-pie ( sorry ) ...  This forum is great and has helped me refine this to the point of maybe even opening a restaurant in an area starved for this kind of pie!

This guy features:
Maple carmelized onions
Home Made Meatballs
Garlic sauteed mushrooms
5 cheese secret blend
seasoned 6 in 1 sauce with some chopped tomatoes to bulk it up.

Baked in 9 inch cake pans so it only took about 25 minutes at 475 since they are thinner than regular pizza pans.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 20, 2010, 02:50:13 PM
musthavepizza --
That's a beautiful pizza pie.  Great pictures and lip smacking views of a delicious looking pizza.  Look at that oozing cheese.  Wow.  It's making me hungry already.  Great job, fella.  Where did you come out of?  First posting and already an incredible looking deep dish pie.
                                                                                             --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: musthavepizza on October 20, 2010, 03:03:23 PM
BTB - Thanks for the compliment!  And I can say it tastes as good as it looks!  Again, kudos to you and your lengthy research and testing.  I've been tweaking and playing for about a year.  Make pies about once a month.  So this isnt my first.  That one was not so good...  But now I have it down.  Accurate measurment is the key.  It really is science and small changes can make a big difference.  Still would like a bit more "crumb flake" to the dough which you seem to get in your pictures, but this is very tasty.  Light , tender, great flavor that compliments the toppings and sauce.  When it comes together there is nothing better.

I am in the Los Angeles area and NO ONE has a place that serves this type of pizza.  And the couple of deep dish places that try are thick bready doughs that suck or have no flavor.  If I want to eat bread I'll eat good artisan bakery bread.  This is what a deep dish should be.  Thin tasty buttery light crust in a pan in perfect proportion to the cheese, toppings and sauce.   And I can tell you a LOT of people LOVE this kind of pie.

I'm getting hungry now too...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on October 26, 2010, 07:09:55 PM
Took a second crack at the Malnati recipe last night and got better results with the crust.  I baked it for approximately 25 minutes at 450F on a preheated stone on the bottom rack of my gas oven.  The crust had a nice light, biscuity quality, and had good flavor.  I think I've got a good handle on the crust.  The toppings are something of an issue now.  For one, I can't seem to find the right amount of mozzarella to use.  The first time I made a Chicago-style pie, I used too little mozz (approx. 6 oz on a 9" pie).  This time, I used too much (approx. 10-11 oz. on a 9" pie).  Also, the sausage didn't get cooked all the way through in some places.  Finally, the sauce, which was made up of half a 28 oz can of drained 6-in-1 and some diced tomatoes on top, just didn't have much flavor.  It lacked salt, mostly.


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on October 26, 2010, 09:12:26 PM
i use about 13oz for a 12" deepdish, which is roughly 1/4" thick when it comes out. 

i would try using around 8.5oz based off of some quick math.  i have no problems with cooktimes
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on October 26, 2010, 10:45:44 PM
I place enough cheese to cover the bottom and then enough to fill any gaps.

I'm making my  square deep dish in the next few days so will take pictures of layering the cheese and the results after cooking.

Obviously this is different from the regular round pie, but not so different.

The most common problem I see when people make deep dish is the use off too much sauce, first off technically, I don't use any sauce in my deep dish. It's not really a sauce when you're just putting chopped/crushed tomato on, it's more of a topping, and you don't need so much, it will reduce down and also fill out, too much moisture might be the reason why your sausage didn't cook properly.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: c0mpl3x on October 26, 2010, 11:44:34 PM
I place enough cheese to cover the bottom and then enough to fill any gaps.

I'm making my  square deep dish in the next few days so will take pictures of layering the cheese and the results after cooking.

Obviously this is different from the regular round pie, but not so different.

The most common problem I see when people make deep dish is the use off too much sauce, first off technically, I don't use any sauce in my deep dish. It's not really a sauce when you're just putting chopped/crushed tomato on, it's more of a topping, and you don't need so much, it will reduce down and also fill out, too much moisture might be the reason why your sausage didn't cook properly.



i use strained diced tomatoes mixed about 60/40 with stanislaus full red.  i get very firm sauce, and i spinkle about 2oz of locatelli romano on the top

picture related of sauce/cheese layering.  really good pic i think

edit: i almost dropped the pizza and all of the hot sauce slid to the left side thats not in the picture.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on October 29, 2010, 12:52:02 PM
Hello, all. After trying what seems like a hundred different recipes, I have yet to find the right deep-dish dough recipe (damn you, cornmeal!). When I stumbled upon this forum, it was love at first sight. I think this crust might be "the one." I tried the dough earlier this week, in my 14" Chicago Metallic "Bakalon" pan (best pan ever) @450deg for 35 minutes. I checked after 20 mins and, unfortunately, I had already burned the crust.

I have a gas oven (I absolutely hate it) and I placed the pizza it on the bottom rack, which in retrospect, was right above the flame that heats the oven. The other possible factor was the oil in the pan. I used EVOO... and a bit too much of it, which I think contributed to the burning. Before I make this pizza again, I'd like to get some suggestions on temp, time and oil.

My intuition tells me to grease with, Crisco, and cook at 425 on the middle rack, but I'm certainly open to hearing suggestions!

Thanks in advance!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on October 29, 2010, 01:08:33 PM
EVOOil in the pan and low down's what dud the did! (did the deed)

I'm not good with these newer pans, is it non stick?  You might wanna try no grease in the pan at all depending on what kinda recipe you follow? 

Trial and error my friend.  Get to know your oven better, gas can be your friend, its a lot to do with placement in the oven as well as what recipe you follow!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on October 29, 2010, 03:51:41 PM
It is non-stick, though I'm always nervous to go without any grease at all... maybe I should just trust my buddies at Chicago Metallic. ;) So what do you all use for oil/grease? Anything?

One thing's for sure... I'm watching tonight's pizza like a hawk. Thanks for your input!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on October 29, 2010, 04:33:54 PM
I've tried oil, butter, and Crisco in the bottom of the same pan you use..I am a firm believer Olive or Crisco helps with a crisp bottom..I can't  help with the gas oven but if you review some of the past posts of time and temp you are not far off...keep an eye on the crust top and pull out when you think it is ready...I always leave it in 5 min. more when I think it is ready..ha ha
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 29, 2010, 07:06:35 PM
I suggest trying Crisco on the bottom of the pan only and not the sides.  Many of our members actually prefer Crisco or some similar shortening.  Later when you get a little more experience, you can use a little regular OO instead, but the EVOO can work, too.  Some don't mind its flavor.  And try the middle rack or one level down from the middle.  I use the second from the bottom rack level, but I have a totally different kind of electric oven.  Like Mick said, you got to get to learn the idiosyncrasies of your oven.  Sorry to hear about the burning, but it is part of the pizzamaking learning process.  Good luck on your next one.

                                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on November 07, 2010, 08:36:54 AM
Third time is the charm.  I was really happy with this Malnati-inspired pie.  The crust was really exceptional and the proportions of the toppings were spot on for my tastes.  It was really flavorful too.  Thanks for the help everyone!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on November 07, 2010, 08:47:51 AM
Looks OK, only suggestion, unless the flash is misleading me is to crimp harder into the corners. 

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on November 07, 2010, 09:41:30 AM
Looks OK, only suggestion, unless the flash is misleading me is to crimp harder into the corners. 



So that the bottom edge is more squared off?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on November 07, 2010, 12:05:41 PM
Yeah! That's how I'd want it but it's up to you!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: cup-o-pizza on November 07, 2010, 12:11:49 PM
Right on.  I'll try that next time!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 08, 2010, 03:32:54 PM
Getting back into the swing of pizzamaking after having the summer off, I recently received some small deep dish pizza pans from Pizzatools.com so that I could better experiment with and try various pizza recipes or ingredients or proportions of ingredients in order to assess and evaluate the differences in recipes or ingredients.  The larger size pans sometimes makes it difficult to see or judge what the effect of different things and ingredients have, especially when you have to consume large amounts of pizzas afterwards with the larger sized pans.  With making small pizzas side by side, I thought such would help in learning the effects of different ingredients more easily.

So I set about this past weekend making two small individual sized (i.e. 6") pizzas to test out the difference between the Semolina Flour that I often have been using with great success and the King Arthur Extra Fancy Durum Flour that I recently received from KA.  Some had discussed use of the Durum flour earlier this year in this thread as an alternative to semolina and my curiosity got the better of me, so I recently placed and received an order for some durum flour from KA.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 08, 2010, 03:36:17 PM
Each pizza was baked in a small 6" diameter pan, the dough crimped or pressed tightly approx. 1.5" up the side of the pan, a bowl residue of 1.5%, and a nominal TF of .11.  The formulation that I used for each pizza was as follows:
 
Flour (100%):  95.34 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
Water (45%):  42.9 g  |  1.51 oz | 0.09 lbs
ADY (.6%):  0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Salt (1%):  0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  5.72 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  11.44 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  5.72 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Total (172.1%): 164.08 g | 5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs | TF = 0.11165
 
For one pizza, the flour component consisted of 65% KAOAP (approx. 62 g) and 35% semolina flour (approx. 33.3 g) and the second pizza consisted of 65% KAOAP and 35% KA "Extra Fancy Durum" Flour, which were the same weights (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb)).  KA suggested to me that an amount more than 25% of semolina or durum may be needed to distinguish the difference. 
 
After a brief wooden spoon and hand mix of a minute or two, I let the dough balls rise in a slightly warmed oven (covered in a bowl) for about 90 to 120 minutes and then put them into plastic bags and into the refrigerator for 24 hours or so and then took them out about 2 to 3 hours prior to baking to get the dough to an approx. room temperature (70ish).  I then put a tsp. or two of olive oil into the pans, pressed the dough into the pans (again with a tight pinch or crimping of the dough against the sides of the pan, which seemingly is a minor but to me an essential part of Chicago Style deep dish pizzamaking).  I then put in about 3 to 3.75 oz. of sliced part skimmed, low moisture mozzarella cheese, then some great Italian sausage (uncooked, of course) from our local Italian deli, then the Lou Malnati's tomatoes (drained slightly for about 3 or 4 minutes), then a pinch of oregano and a pinch of basil, then a lot of good pinches of special grated parmesan cheese from my local Italian deli, and then into the oven.  Pictures showing the "dressing" process follow.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 08, 2010, 03:38:28 PM
In addition to wanting to try out the "Extra Fancy Durum" Flour, I also wanted to try out the Lou Malnati's canned tomatoes that I got when I was in Chicago this past summer.  In opening the can of Malnati's tomatoes and tasting the contents, I was blown away and greatly impressed with the quality of the Malnati's tomatoes. Very tasty and flavorful, just like I remembered at the restaurants.  I hope my supply lasts me through the winter, but I am doubtful it will after this.  The pizza on the right in all the pictures is the one with the "extra fancy durum" flour.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 08, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
I baked the pizzas at 450 degrees F for 22 to 25 minutes on the next to the bottom rack level (my electric oven has 8 levels and no hot elements within sight in the oven -- others may need to use a higher rack or learn of their oven's characteristics accordingly).  The pizza with the semolina got a little darker earlier than the pizza with the "extra fancy durum."  I, of course, turned both pizzas 180 degrees midway through the baking cycle and after taking them out, I extracted them from the small 6" pan using a small "frosting" spatula.  For larger size pizzas, I have a bigger instrument or spatula, as larger pizzas can take quite a bit of work to get out without destroying or messing up the pan pizza.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 08, 2010, 03:43:59 PM
Both these pizzas were absolutely phenomenal.  I hadn't made a pizza since last spring until now, but they seemed to have been among the best that I've ever made.  First of all, the Malnati's tomatoes were the best I've ever had on a homemade pizza.  My wife liked them, too, but commented that she thought the 6 in 1's with the Muir Glen cubed tomato pieces were as good also.  I semi agree but think the Malnati's gave it a "back in the restaurant" character and flavor that was so very noticeable and desired for us Malnati fans.

My wife and I split both pizzas and delighted in every bite and morsel of the crisp yet tender crust and slightly sweet but so tasty tomato pieces.  They really came out great we thought.
 
Which was better?  Boy, I hate to waver, but that is hard to say.  My wife thought the version with the Durum was slightly better, but raved about the other also.  I thought the version with the 35% semolina was slightly better, but the other pizza was really great also.  The Durum flour seemed to make the pizza crust a little lighter and tenderer, but ever so slight.   KA kind of suggested that one may need larger proportions of the semolina and durum to distinguish the taste and flavor better, so that may have to wait for another day.  Either way, one super, super pizza can be made and you wouldn't be disappointed with either.

                                                                                   --BTB

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on November 08, 2010, 04:32:48 PM
Nice experiment, BTB.  The pizzas look great and how 'bout those Malnati's tomatoes

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2010, 05:27:16 PM
BTB,

Good experiments and delicious looking pizzas!  You did a fantastic job in making these pizzas.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2010, 06:14:31 PM
BTB,

Very interesting approach, with good results.

How do you like the pizzatools.com (Lloyd Pans) PSTK deep-dish pans compared with the others you have used?

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2010, 10:03:49 AM
Loo, those Lou Malnati's tomatoes were really great.  Suggest all who may be interested to email Marc Malnati and talk him into having them sent to interested purchasers through mail or delivery service.  Maybe they've started to do so, but I hadn't inquired yet as I have a fair supply on hand. 
 
Norma, you lead the way on the durum flour trials and I just had to follow up and see for myself.  I had your results and pictures from earlier this year in mind when I was contemplating the effort.  And I see you continue making great strides in all your pizzamaking adventures, too.
 
Peter, as you know, I followed your lead with the pizzatools.com cutter pans a couple of years ago and swear about their use for thin crust pizzas.  I thought their cutter pans were great products.  In looking to get some smaller sized pans, I thought I'd see if their deep dish pans were of a like quality to their cutter pans.  And yes they are.  Preliminarily, I am very favorably impressed with their quality and baking characteristics.  As you know, it has that dark "tuff-kote" PSTK coating.  With that dark anodized finish, it enables one to get a hotter and faster bake "as it is more absorptive of the IR energy radiated from the hot oven surfaces" than the reflective surface of bright or shiny bare aluminum pans.  That's why most experienced pizzamakers always recommend using dark coated pans as opposed to the bright, shiny ones.  And the information from the company about their pans further recites:  "The heavy gauge durable spun construction with the dark anodized release coat of PSTK will give hot bakes with great color and snap to the crust.   This combination of features and their performance benefits can't be beaten."  And so far, I'm a believer.

Pizzamakers using the pans with the PSTK coating should watch the baking of a pizza carefully when first using their pans as they do seem to get that nice golden brown color a little faster than other pans, which I think is a good thing. Just watch so they don't get too browned.
 
One thing about their written "Important Notice" of the PSTK finish both in the instructions that came with the pans and previously on their Internet site concerned me very much.  Their instructions until a week or two ago warned "Do not use olive oil or any soy based" oils in the pan.  Now that's a big, big problem for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas that most commonly uses olive oil in the pan under the pizza dough (as well as in the dough).  If I can't use olive oil, what good are the pans to me, I thought.  So I jotted off an email to the company and got a nice response back.
 
I was informed that "The olive oil reference you pointed out is simply nonsense on our part . . . we have changed and updated our PSTK notice flyer which should have been included with your pans and attached the updated version for you as a PDF file. There is no reason not to use any oil you desire. Thank you for bringing this to our attention."  So all should feel free to use olive oil with their pans.  They still caution, understandably, about use of vegetable oil (99.9% of which is really soy oil).  I've noticed when using vegetable oil with or for seasoning other pans (like my Chicago Metallic) a certain "stickiness" to the pans, which was very undesirable.  So I would agree that one should not use vegetable oil in the bottom of any pizza pan if you want your pans to last longer.

Incidentally, I made another pizza for my adult son last night using a 7" diameter pizzatools.com pan instead and using the same basic durum flour recipe as above, altered slightly to include 5% rice flour (as its another of my favorite additives from time to time).  With the Malnati's tomatoes, it again turned out fantastic also.  I also made a thin cracker crust using the cutter pan last night, which I'll report about elsewhere when I have a chance. 
 
                                                                            --BTB  :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2010, 10:19:37 AM
BTB,

I went through the same drill as you on using oil in the PSTK pizzatools pans except that I called the company instead of emailing them. I posted what I learned from my call at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7152.msg68824/topicseen.html#msg68824.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on November 09, 2010, 10:35:27 AM
The pies look the business!


What other semolina flours have you tried?

I'm looking to buy in bulk due to the sheer amount of pasta my daughter consumes now  :'(

I was contemplating getting a multipack from Bobs Red Mill, but I've found the Ziyad brand to be just as good and a lot cheaper.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2010, 11:19:45 AM
Hey, Mick, I've only tried Bob's Red Mill semolina flour and have always found it to be great.  I've been tempted to put it through the food processor to make it even finer, but none of my taste testers find that it provides a "gritty" mouth feel that Ed had in his earlier comments, so I'm satisfied with the product as is. But at my local "health food" store, they have a couple of other brands of semolina that I may try some day. However, if wanting the "extra fancy durum," it would seem to make more sense to order both the semolina and durum from King Arthur as Bob's doesn't sell the special "extra fancy" durum flour.  I am unfamiliar with the Ziyad brand but always found the King Arthur to be top notch.  Buying bulk is not my thing, but if your needs require such . . . .   
                                                                     --BTB              :'(
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 09, 2010, 11:34:15 AM
BTB, all, thanks for the input on which type of "grease" I should use on the pan.

I first tried using a smaller quantity of corn oil and baking on a higher rack in my gas oven (I will try Crisco next time). The results were much better. My dad raved that it was the best pizza he had eaten since UNO closed their last location here in MN. I agreed that it was really quite good, but didn't quite meet UNO's brilliance. I was expecting a more buttery, flaky crust. Instead, the crust is still a bit "bread-y" and right before pressing into the pan, despite having a day to rise and time to warm up to room temp, the dough is thick and heavy, having almost a drying Play-doh consistency.

In troubleshooting, I've come up with a few hypotheses that I'd like some expert input on: 1) I do not have a kitchen scale. I used the various calculators to convert the weights to common volume-based measuring devices. I am absolutely confident in my conversions, but I know that there can be inconsistencies in densities, especially in flour. 2) To my eternal shame, I do not own a flour sifter. It's one of those space-gobbling kitchen gadgets that I would use twice a year. (I do, however, own a sieve... would that be sufficient?) I'm fairly certain some combination of 1 & 2 are the main culprits, but let me continue with the symptoms so you geniuses can reassure me that I'm not missing anything: After I've proofed the ADY and added it to the four mixture (reserving a quarter cup of flour), the liquid is not nearly enough to get the dough incorporated. Yes, I am paranoid about over-mixing, but I could probably mash on that bowl for an hour and still have dry crumbles. Is this expected? Later, when I add the oils, there is just barely enough liquid to bring the dough together, but it's tough. I actually have added a couple T of water in order to bring the dough to a usable consistency. I let it rest somewhere warm for an hour, then do an over-night cool-rise, per BTB's suggestion. Certainly after that, the dough comes out a bit softer, but is still difficult to work.

Between (1), (2), and/or something else, what, pray-tell, do you pizza gurus suspect to be my issue?

Thanks again for your knowledge!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2010, 12:58:11 PM
Hey Clive, welcome again to our site.  No one here is THE absolute expert, but we all like to trade information and help each other out to get to each of our pizza "Valhalla."  I'll just go through a few of your comments and give my thoughts FWIW -- which may not be much. 
 
I hope you do not bake a pizza normally higher than midlevel in your oven.  One or two levels lower than midlevel would be better IMO, but depends on your oven's characteristics.  Only go to a level higher than midlevel when the pizza is done and you're trying to darken the pizza top a bit.  I prefer olive oil to corn oil on the bottom of the pan (and like you say, just a little), but the type is a personal preference.  But Crisco is very, very good also and I often times revert to using it as it always shows a good result. 
 
Yep, none of us deep dish enthusiasts like a "bready" crust (except those who like the bready crust on the discredited -- my opinion only -- Pizza Hut deep dish).  Regarding your "play-doh" consistency, my goal in putting all the ingredients together is getting a dough ball that is ever so slightly dry but maybe a little oily and then adding pinches of flour to the ball to make it a little more drier.  That seems to work the best for me.
 
My sympathy (lol) on not having a kitchen scale.  A real plus in pizzamaking I think.  Makes the job simpler and worth the $30 to $50 investment.  The flour sifter is not that important, tho.  The same strainer that I use to strain the crushed tomatoes does as good job on sifting as does my flour sifter.  And besides, it is debatable whether sifting provides that much of a superior result.  I prefer to sift when I have the time, but am finding myself more and more skipping the process. 
 
From hereinafter in reading your comments, I'm not quite certain what's transpiring.  I think you are doing a variant of autolyse and I suggest that be eliminated and only tried out after one has more deep dish pizzamaking experience under their belt (so don't reserve the quarter cup of flour).  Put in the foamed up water with the ADY (assuming it foamed up for approx. 10 minutes and that the water was in the range of 100 to 110 degrees F).  Do not wait on the oil and put it in at the same time.  The dough ball should not be tough or difficult to mix together at this point normally.  Sometimes that has happened to me, but I had to think to myself that I varied somehow and someway from the formulation (and after thinking about it always find that I had). 
 
Here's one possible thought I have on your plight.  Measuring liquids like water and oil sometimes is not as simple as one would think it is, esp. in small amounts.  You've probably seen in some of my photos the little measuring glass that I use to proof the ADY and water and also use the same or similar with oil (in which I usually combine several types of oil together on top of the scale).  I found it necessary with all liquids to put a "smidgeon" more of water or oil as much remains in the glass after pouring it out.  I know some may be disbelievers regarding this, but its been a good lesson for me.  Some caution is, of course, needed here as a small additions of water or oil can serious alter the recipe or formulation greatly.  And I'm sorry to say that I don't have a good definition of "smidgeon."  As Rachael Ray often says, "I just eyeball it!"
 
Sometimes, but very rarely, when I find a difficult and dry dough ball to work with, I will judge whether is lacks a tiny bit of water or oil and carefully add a little of either.  And if I go overboard, then some pinches of flour may be necessary.  But I realize that at that point I may have altered the formulation a bit, but trudge on through anyway.  The alternative is to throw everything out and start anew, and I hate to do that, of course.
 
I trust after putting the dough ball together, maybe slightly oiling it, covering it in a bowl and placing it in a warm spot, that you let it rise for 1 to 2 hours (longer is better), punching it down, maybe doing another rise, throwing it into the refrigerator for at least 24 hours (altho same day use is do-able) in a covered bowl or in a ziplock bag, and taking it out preferably 2 to 3 hours prior to baking.  After it's warmed to room temperature, I press it out normally on the counter to roughly the size of the pan and then put it into the pan and press it in tightly.  Oftentimes I find too much dough for the pan and scrape or tear some out as I don't want too thick a dough or crust.
 
I don't know if I've been of any help, but its a learning process that only trial and error and some experience can bring about.  Good luck and let us know how things went.  Hopefully some others can add their thoughts and comments also.
 
                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on November 09, 2010, 01:22:19 PM
BTB, all, thanks for the input on which type of "grease" I should use on the pan.

I first tried using a smaller quantity of corn oil and baking on a higher rack in my gas oven (I will try Crisco next time). The results were much better. My dad raved that it was the best pizza he had eaten since UNO closed their last location here in MN. I agreed that it was really quite good, but didn't quite meet UNO's brilliance. I was expecting a more buttery, flaky crust. Instead, the crust is still a bit "bread-y" and right before pressing into the pan, despite having a day to rise and time to warm up to room temp, the dough is thick and heavy, having almost a drying Play-doh consistency.

In troubleshooting, I've come up with a few hypotheses that I'd like some expert input on: 1) I do not have a kitchen scale. I used the various calculators to convert the weights to common volume-based measuring devices. I am absolutely confident in my conversions, but I know that there can be inconsistencies in densities, especially in flour. 2) To my eternal shame, I do not own a flour sifter. It's one of those space-gobbling kitchen gadgets that I would use twice a year. (I do, however, own a sieve... would that be sufficient?) I'm fairly certain some combination of 1 & 2 are the main culprits, but let me continue with the symptoms so you geniuses can reassure me that I'm not missing anything: After I've proofed the ADY and added it to the four mixture (reserving a quarter cup of flour), the liquid is not nearly enough to get the dough incorporated. Yes, I am paranoid about over-mixing, but I could probably mash on that bowl for an hour and still have dry crumbles. Is this expected? Later, when I add the oils, there is just barely enough liquid to bring the dough together, but it's tough. I actually have added a couple T of water in order to bring the dough to a usable consistency. I let it rest somewhere warm for an hour, then do an over-night cool-rise, per BTB's suggestion. Certainly after that, the dough comes out a bit softer, but is still difficult to work.

Between (1), (2), and/or something else, what, pray-tell, do you pizza gurus suspect to be my issue?

Thanks again for your knowledge!

-Clive

BTB is on the money.
My 2 cents: Sounds like 2 possibilities -
I don't know how much oil/water you are using, but you might need a little bit more of both.
Also, you might be slightly out of sequence when combining the ingredients.
Try proofing your yeast/warm water in the mixing bowl , then add the oil into the bowl ,
then mix in a small part of your flour (maybe a cup) until you have a 'batter', then work in the rest of your flour into the dough.
I work the dough by hand, folding and kneading until it comes together into a ball, similar to pie dough, but a little softer.
It will start out seeming like you don't have enough liquid, but will eventually come together.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2010, 02:35:19 PM
I found it necessary with all liquids to put a "smidgeon" more of water or oil as much remains in the glass after pouring it out.

BTB,

A neat trick that November taught me for measuring out water was to pour some water into my measuring cup, empty it, and then tare out the measuring cup before adding the amount of water called for by the recipe. That way, you are going to get pretty close to the desired quantity. The same method can be used when measuring out oil or other liquid ingredient that leaves a small amount behind when emptying the measuring cup or container.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on November 09, 2010, 07:42:28 PM
Man those look good. Love that size . What is the finished weight of 1 of those beauties?  I am neapolitaned out and craving the deep dish now after viewing that cross cut shot! I am having flashbacks Bob! I am goning to oder a few Malnatis pies and tomatoes from Lou only becuase I have free money in  the paypal account from ebay "Junk" so I though I ould splurge for a to me, from me, love gift,.  Oh bye the way  this "Junk" from deep within the closets is also paying for my new Bosch Universal PLus!!  ;D
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on November 09, 2010, 08:26:55 PM
Man those look good. Love that size . What is the finished weight of 1 of those beauties?  I am neapolitaned out and craving the deep dish now after viewing that cross cut shot! I am having flashbacks Bob! I am goning to oder a few Malnatis pies and tomatoes from Lou only becuase I have free money in  the paypal account from ebay "Junk" so I though I ould splurge for a to me, from me, love gift,.  Oh bye the way  this "Junk" from deep within the closets is also paying for my new Bosch Universal PLus!!  ;D
John

Please order a Sausage and tell us the ingredients!  I have no need to go to Lou's even though it's a mere mile away but I can't really just walk in and dig around in their refrigerator to look at the to go pies!

Heck if I was that cheeky I'd go in and grab a pan! 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2010, 10:38:48 PM
BTB,

I am glad you had good results using the durum flour.  :)  I recently used the durum flour as part of the formula in the Tartine Country bread and also had decent results.

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: juniorballoon on November 29, 2010, 02:34:42 PM
Hello All,

New guy here. I used this recipe for my first deep dish pizza and I think they came out pretty good. My biggest problem was too much moisture from the tomatoes. The bottoms were cooked, but a bit soggy. I used some whole marzanos that I broke up by hand. I added a bit of the juice. Next time I won't add juice and will drain them a bit in a screen. Still very tasty.

I have been making pasta for a couple of years and have been incorporating more and more semolina. I now do a 50 50 mix of KAAP and semolina. Although I've never done it with pizza dough it was a natural progression and will try this when making regular thin crust pizza.

One thing I am not big on...yet... is weighing all the ingredients. I do have a couple of scales. One for doing less than a gram  and another for larger amounts. I tried to use the Deep-Dish calculator and quickly got confused. Is there a tutorial for it?

Great site, great info, will surely lead to great pizza!

Thanks,
jb
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2010, 02:45:43 PM
One thing I am not big on...yet... is weighing all the ingredients. I do have a couple of scales. One for doing less than a gram  and another for larger amounts. I tried to use the Deep-Dish calculator and quickly got confused. Is there a tutorial for it?

jb,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4931.msg41756.html#msg41756. You should be aware that the tool cannot handle multiple flours easily, such as apportioning the total flour blend among different flours, like all-purpose flour and semolina flour. The math for that has to be done offline along the lines as discussed and shown by BTB in this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2010, 02:55:35 PM
One thing I am not big on...yet... is weighing all the ingredients. I do have a couple of scales. One for doing less than a gram  and another for larger amounts.

jb,

My practice for normal amounts of dough is to weigh only the flour and water and, if a lot of oil is called for, I will weigh that. For all of the other ingredients, I use the volume measurements given by the deep-dish dough calculating tool.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 30, 2010, 10:12:09 AM
Hey JB, welcome to the site.  I, too, wish there was a nice tutorial for use of the pizza calculator tools, but keep trying and trying and then it will be second nature to you.  Peter's link is a good start.  Once learned -- and I at least think it's easy-- you will have a super quick and simple way to calculate all the recipes in any size, thickness or type within seconds or minutes.  I, like Peter, just generally use the weights for flours, water and oil (or other large ingredient amounts), but use the tsp or Tbsp additions for the tiny amounts of ingredients like salt, ADY, etc.  That's "close enough."  Weights are the general rule in Europe, as I understand -- not that Europe is a model for much of anything these days, though.

I've found that for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas that draining the tomatoes for 10 to 20 minutes is a must, but they get too dry if done much longer.   Also, make sure your not using a "fresh" or wet mozzarella cheese as that can cause a lot of undesirable juice that creates a lot of sogginess.  For thin crust pizzas, however, I use the great Pastenes, Escalon's 6 in 1, and many others straight out of the can (along with some additives here and there).

Please keep us in step with all your trials and successes.

                                                                                    --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: JConk007 on November 30, 2010, 10:36:44 AM
I am very curious as to who is doing the producing/canning of the Lou Malnatins Tomatoes  (california co?)??? Sure they must be produced by someone and just using the label ? Kinda Like the Ciao and Sinatra label for the San Marzano's  Exact same tomato different can. I'm sure  Mr. Malnati  does not have  a Garden That big right ?
John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 30, 2010, 11:02:26 AM
I truly don't know, John, but maybe others will have some other thoughts or knowledge.  But I have to say that I don't remember having such great crushed tomatoes ever for use on a pizza.  They are so tasty and naturally sweet tasting that I can eat them straight from the container -- much like we've seen Marc Malnati on the TV shows eat the tomato pieces straight from his kitchen container -- and they are super delicous (and I don't normally like chunky tomatoes! !).  I maybe harbor a Malnati bias due to my experience and history with them, but these are a couple of the best photos showing the great tomato product on top of their pizza that I thoroughly enjoyed at their Lincolnwood, Illinois restaurant.                                  --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2010, 11:10:47 AM
John,

Loo mentioned San Benito, in California. It is a part of the Neil Jones Food Company (http://www.sanbenitofoods.com/nwpack/default.asp?session=7112654433 (http://www.sanbenitofoods.com/nwpack/default.asp?session=7112654433)). San Benito, along with Stanislaus and Escalon, use fresh-pack tomatoes. Earlier this year I spoke with a food broker in Dallas about the Malnati tomatoes and reported on my investigations at Reply 158 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10161.msg94210#msg94210 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10161.msg94210#msg94210).

Peter

Edit (3/3/14): For a substitute link for the above inoperative sanbenitofoods.com link, see http://www.neiljonesfoodcompany.com/brand/san-benito/ (http://www.neiljonesfoodcompany.com/brand/san-benito/)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: juniorballoon on November 30, 2010, 03:11:24 PM
Hey JB, welcome to the site.  I, too, wish there was a nice tutorial for use of the pizza calculator tools, but keep trying and trying and then it will be second nature to you.  Peter's link is a good start.  Once learned -- and I at least think it's easy-- you will have a super quick and simple way to calculate all the recipes in any size, thickness or type within seconds or minutes.  I, like Peter, just generally use the weights for flours, water and oil (or other large ingredient amounts), but use the tsp or Tbsp additions for the tiny amounts of ingredients like salt, ADY, etc.  That's "close enough."  Weights are the general rule in Europe, as I understand -- not that Europe is a model for much of anything these days, though.

I've found that for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas that draining the tomatoes for 10 to 20 minutes is a must, but they get too dry if done much longer.   Also, make sure your not using a "fresh" or wet mozzarella cheese as that can cause a lot of undesirable juice that creates a lot of sogginess.  For thin crust pizzas, however, I use the great Pastenes, Escalon's 6 in 1, and many others straight out of the can (along with some additives here and there).

Please keep us in step with all your trials and successes.

                                                                                    --BTB

Thanks for the welcome. I did eventually figure the calculator out. I only needed a couple of key bits of info, Thickness factor and Hydration percentage. I got the thickness factor from Pete-zaa (common numbers are 0.11 and 0.135) and figured out on my own that your recipe in the first post were all numbers that get entered into the calculator. Once I got that I could tweak it to get different results and the weights and measures.  But that was after I made these pies. I used 2 1/4 cups KAAP and 3/4 cup of semolina, 1 1/2 cups of water and 1/2 cup olive oil. I ended up with 3 dough balls. I used cake yeast. I find that if I'm going to make pizza in 4-6 hours the cake yeast gives me a better/faster rise. I like to get 2 punch downs, divide and make balls after the second and let those rise for a bit. I see that you guys often do an overnight in the fridge. I haven't tried that yet.

A few weeks back I roasted some canned whole tomatoes. Took them out and laid them on a cookie tray and let them slow cook for a few hours at 275. Next time I do deep dish I'm going to use that method. Reserve a bit of the juice in case they get to dry. It gave them a nice sweet carmelized flavor.

jb
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BobBill on December 06, 2010, 08:37:16 AM
I mentioned in the Malnati thread that I recently had an excellent deep dish pizza at a local pizzeria that used semolina flour to some extent in their crust, which was very tasty and flavorful along with a nice light crunch.  So I went about making a small 9" deep dish pizza this past weekend to see how it would turn out using some semolina in the flour mixture.  Peter had indicated that Tom Lehmann recommended a general maximum of 25% semolina of the total flour blend, but that some others had gone as high as 50%. I just settled on 15% in this initial experiment.
 
Using King Arthur AP and Bob's Red Mill semolina, the formulation that I used, with a 1.5% bowl residue, was as follows:
 
Flour ***  (100%):  161.71 g  |  5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
Water (47%):  89.42 g  |  3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.6%):  1.14 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (.5%):  0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):  9.51 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):  34.24 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.61 tsp | 2.54 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Semolina (15%):  28.54 g | 1.01 oz | 0.06 lbs | 8.2 tsp | 2.73 tbsp
Total (187.1%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
    ***Using the deep-dish dough calculation tool, the flour (in this case KAAP) came out to
             "Flour (100%):  190.25 g  |  6.71 oz | 0.42 lbs," but per Peter's suggestion, you need to deduct
             the amount of semolina to ensure a proper balance of flour in total.
 
I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours.
 
I took the cooled dough ball out the next day about 1 and 1/2 hours before baking to let it warm up.  I've found at other times that cold dough did not bake very well, or at least not to my liking, so I think it's important to let the dough get to room temperature before baking.  I put the dough ball into my previously oiled 9" deep dish Chicago Metallic pan with 2" high straight-sides.  Patting it out flat by hand, I tried especially to crimp or pinch the edges of the crust very hard to give the crust a nice real thin edge, as opposed to a thicker or fatter rim that sometimes occurs, especially when using a lot of yeast.  The Malnati's, Due's and Pizano's pizzas that I used to enjoy always had that crimped thin, crisp rim around the pizza unlike the thicker rim that existed at Gino's East, Uno's franchises, and other places.
 
I then put in a layer of sliced Mozzarella cheese, then added some provolone cheese pieces, then a sausage "patty" that I made from a couple of links of specialty Italian sausage.  See Pics below.


 Appreciate the addition of the different measuring in above in green, but I have

a question. 

I have no trouble with weighing ingredients out but I know few who do it unless making dough by many pounds and even some of those used gross measurments, by the can etc.

Would it be easier to note recipe in cups (C) of flour and teaspoons etc. Why make it difficult, when we all knead to texture and feel?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 06, 2010, 09:59:45 AM
Would it be easier to note recipe in cups (C) of flour and teaspoons etc. Why make it difficult, when we all knead to texture and feel?

BobBill,

You may be interested in knowing that there is a Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ that allows one to convert weights of certain brands of flours (in the pulldown menu) to volume measurements based on how one measures out the flours (Measurement Method). Such conversions are a convenient starting point from where you can finish the dough by texture and feel. Semolina flour isn't covered by the tool so you would have to use the manufacturer's data to do conversions or you can use the data on semolina at the SelfNutritionData website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5731/2.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on December 07, 2010, 04:35:09 PM
BTB, I've been trying to gauge the amount of tomatos I use (as I've remarked in the past) and noticed something interesting:  when I see the photos from Lou Malnati's pies, they have less tomato than your beautiful pies do (or at least appear to have less) and are baked lighter than I typically go, and yet neither of you have problems with moisture.  About how many cups of tomatos would one want to use on a 14" pie?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 08, 2010, 06:01:45 AM
Those promotional photos for Tastes of Chicago or Lou to Go are no indicator of how the pies really look.  We've had the light color discussion before here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7594.0.html  Check out BTB's pics in reply #388.  Those pics are what you're shooting for.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 09, 2010, 11:09:42 AM
I've been trying to gauge the amount of tomatos I use (as I've remarked in the past) and noticed something interesting:  when I see the photos from Lou Malnati's pies, they have less tomato than your beautiful pies do (or at least appear to have less) and are baked lighter than I typically go, and yet neither of you have problems with moisture.  About how many cups of tomatos would one want to use on a 14" pie?
David,

I've eaten at Lou Malnati's pizza restaurants literally hundreds of times and more than any other pizza place that I've visited in my lifetime.  The pictures that I took at Malnati's original and flagship Lincolnwood restaurant shown above in Reply #388 is typical of the amount of tomatoes on a deep dish pizza enjoyed at their restaurants.

You didn't say where you saw those photos, but I suspect its from their many mailings about "Taste of Chicago" products that I receive every other week in the mail from them.  For some inexplicable reason, the pictures of the pizzas in those and other Malnati's advertisements, or promotional shots given for media use, always shows an "atypical" picture of the pizza from what one would normally experience in their restaurants.  I have no explanation other than what some others have given, like it looks better for advertising or promotional purposes.  When we receive the mailings, I and others familiar with their great pizzas just shake our heads in amazement when viewing the photos of the pizzas in the mailings ("that's not how it looks in the restaurant" we would say).  Maybe a cheese pizza doesn't have as much of their tomatoes on it, but others typically do.

Also the color of the pizza crust in those advertisements or media photos likewise is greatly unusual and atypical.  I have rarely been served a pizza at their restaurants with such a light -- almost white -- color as most of those photos show.  I think the specialty flash from the professional photographers contributes to that.  But if one wants less tomatoes and a lighter colored crust on their home made deep dish, that is easily achievable.  But if one wants to make a pizza at home that is typical of a deep dish pizza served at their restaurants, put more tomatoes than in those pictures and cook a little longer, but that's a personal preference.

I don't keep good track of the amount of tomato sauce that I put on any size pizza (I'm sorry to say), but I always use a 28 oz. can and will estimate (or guesstimate) that for a 14" diameter deep dish, I would have put from 15 to 22 oz. of tomatoes.  I truly go by sight and never use "cups" as a measurement.  If you don't have the Malnati's brand, suggest use of 6 in 1's or comparable and some good small diced tomatoes to supplement the crushed tomatoes (both drained from 10 to 20 minutes to avoid moisture).  That comes close to Chicago Style deep dish pizzas.

When in Chicago a few months back, several of us enjoyed the large-size deep dish pizza that I photographed below at their northwest suburban Buffalo Grove restaurant. 

                                                                                           --BTB 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 09, 2010, 11:31:07 AM
I have no trouble with weighing ingredients out but I know few who do it unless making dough by many pounds and even some of those used gross measurments, by the can etc.

Would it be easier to note recipe in cups (C) of flour and teaspoons etc. Why make it difficult, when we all knead to texture and feel?

Am not sure how to answer here.  Are you saying that measuring by weights makes it more difficult? ?  If that's what you mean, I think you'll have a big difference of opinion from many here.  I think measuring by weight makes pizzamaking much, much easier than by volume (other than tsp and tbsp).  For instance, I don't remember the diameter of the pizza in the formulation that you quoted, but let's assume it was for a 9" and someone wanted to follow that formulation for a 12" diameter pizza.  With the use of the weight measuring tools on this website, one could determine the recipe or formulation in "seconds" and not fumble around with cups and fractions of cups of ingredients.  And as you know, a cup to one is often different than a cup to another.

I know what you mean about texture and feel, but that's an extremely personal thing that's difficult or hard to describe and teach to others who want first to follow a specific recipe.  But by all means, if volume measurement is what you've experienced as the best method, one should continue that.

                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tylerloder on December 12, 2010, 02:59:50 PM
What does everyone think of using a lower temperature, such as 385-410 degrees for a longer period of time when using fresh whole milk mozzarella?  Would this ensure more evaporation, or would it probably not make a difference?  Thoughts? Opinions?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pizzacrazy7 on December 15, 2010, 07:25:03 PM
Does anyone have this recipe using IDY instead of ADY?  I'd like to try it out this winter.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 15, 2010, 08:34:38 PM
Does anyone have this recipe using IDY instead of ADY?  I'd like to try it out this winter.

Just reduce the yeast amount by 1/3.  Original post calls for .6% ADY, make that .4% IDY.  This ratio can be used for any type of bread, I think.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on December 16, 2010, 01:10:33 PM
BTB is on the money.
My 2 cents: Sounds like 2 possibilities -
I don't know how much oil/water you are using, but you might need a little bit more of both.
Also, you might be slightly out of sequence when combining the ingredients.
Try proofing your yeast/warm water in the mixing bowl , then add the oil into the bowl ,
then mix in a small part of your flour (maybe a cup) until you have a 'batter', then work in the rest of your flour into the dough.
I work the dough by hand, folding and kneading until it comes together into a ball, similar to pie dough, but a little softer.
It will start out seeming like you don't have enough liquid, but will eventually come together.

vcb - THANK YOU for your order-of-operations help. The "batter" technique. It really, really helped. Looking back, I'm not sure what I was trying to accomplish but I'm kind of embarrassed! :-[

BTB - The Crisco worked GREAT. I had no fears of oil running over the crust, etc. It was just a clean, simple panning.

This is my best result yet, but the I'm still having issues with the dough turning out "bread-y." I've narrowed it down to a couple factors I'd appreciate some input on.

1) too much flour. A kitchen scale will remedy this. It's on my Christmas list. ;) BTB, I recall you saying your dough was (as you put it) "ever so slightly oily" when you panned it. This time, mine was almost the consistency and dryness of a bread dough, though it was a *bit* more oily than previous iterations. Instead of adding even MORE oil, I want to try one with the kitchen scale, as I'm almost certain I'm adding too much flour instead of too little oil.

2) dough too thick? Just before panning, I had rolled to a thickness of roughly a quarter of an inch. I'm not as convinced of this being the culprit because I'm more suspect of the dough being overcooked (#3). I'm shooting for a *slightly* crustier outer surface and an "ever so slightly" tender inner layer, and instead it was... well... all bread.

3) Overcooked. The outer shell was just rigid. Not flexible or flaky in the least. I'm blaming my old gas oven again. It may be that the knob isn't properly calibrated to the correct temp -- I don't know, but I need to find the position on the knob that corresponds to great pizza, regardless of what the temp actually is! ;) At the same time, I'm not getting enough caramelization on top. I started at "425" for the first ~15 and when I checked on it to rotate it, the crust was already starting to brown. That's not a good sign! I reduced the heat to "400" for the remaining time, but I'm pretty sure the damage has already been done!

My game plan is to try somewhere between the "375" and "400" settings on my oven knob. I will check FREQUENTLY to ensure the crust is not cooking too quickly or too slowly... though I really don't have a benchmark of the latter. Would someone be able to describe the characteristics of their crust around the 15-20 minute mark?

Also, since I'd like a little more caramelization, I'm considering moving UP yet another a rack... at the very least for the second half of the cook-time.

My pictures are below.

Thanks for any input!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 16, 2010, 01:57:13 PM
This is my best result yet, but the I'm still having issues with the dough turning out "bread-y." I've narrowed it down to a couple factors I'd appreciate some input on.

1) too much flour. A kitchen scale will remedy this. It's on my Christmas list. ;) BTB, I recall you saying your dough was (as you put it) "ever so slightly oily" when you panned it. This time, mine was almost the consistency and dryness of a bread dough, though it was a *bit* more oily than previous iterations. Instead of adding even MORE oil, I want to try one with the kitchen scale, as I'm almost certain I'm adding too much flour instead of too little oil.
 

Might also be not enough water. Low humidity in the air could be stealing moisture from your dough.
Also, I usually add a few drops of oil to the dough before covering it for the rise so the dough doesn't dry out.
 
Quote
2) dough too thick? Just before panning, I had rolled to a thickness of roughly a quarter of an inch. I'm not as convinced of this being the culprit because I'm more suspect of the dough being overcooked (#3). I'm shooting for a *slightly* crustier outer surface and an "ever so slightly" tender inner layer, and instead it was... well... all bread.

Is it possible you over-kneaded?

Also, you can reduce the bready outer lip by just barely pressing the outer edge up.
For crust lip technique, watch Marc Malnati:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU)

Quote
3) Overcooked. The outer shell was just rigid. Not flexible or flaky in the least. I'm blaming my old gas oven again. It may be that the knob isn't properly calibrated to the correct temp -- I don't know, but I need to find the position on the knob that corresponds to great pizza, regardless of what the temp actually is! ;) At the same time, I'm not getting enough caramelization on top. I started at "425" for the first ~15 and when I checked on it to rotate it, the crust was already starting to brown. That's not a good sign! I reduced the heat to "400" for the remaining time, but I'm pretty sure the damage has already been done!

My game plan is to try somewhere between the "375" and "400" settings on my oven knob. I will check FREQUENTLY to ensure the crust is not cooking too quickly or too slowly... though I really don't have a benchmark of the latter. Would someone be able to describe the characteristics of their crust around the 15-20 minute mark?

Also, since I'd like a little more caramelization, I'm considering moving UP yet another a rack... at the very least for the second half of the cook-time.

Many are trying to get a super-golden brown crust, but the texture is more important than the color.
Don't expect tender super-flaky, like you'd see from a pie or a puff pastry.
This crust is going to be closer to crispy/crumbly, like one of those pecan sandies cookies.
I've had many deep dish pizzas from Malnati's and Uno that are much lighter in color that some of the pizzas we bake in this forum.

I usually preheat my oven at 500 degrees and then turn it down to 450 right after I put the pizza in the oven.
I also highly recommend, if you don't have one, to get an oven thermometer (one that hangs off one of your oven racks)
to verify the temp of your oven.
You should be baking on the lowest rack of your oven, and then, like you mentioned,  if you want your toppings or the top of your crust to get more brown, you can definitely move the pizza to the top rack in the last 10 minutes of baking, but keep an eye on your pizza or things may start burning.

From the photos, it looks like you got pretty close. Nice Job!
How big was your pizza and how much time did you bake it in total?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on December 16, 2010, 02:49:04 PM
Might also be not enough water. Low humidity in the air could be stealing moisture from your dough.
Also, I usually add a few drops of oil to the dough before covering it for the rise so the dough doesn't dry out.

Great tip - will try.

Is it possible you over-kneaded?

Yes. :) I freaked out and added the flour in stages. I had too little faith. Next time, I will dump and go. ;D

Also, you can reduce the bready outer lip by just barely pressing the outer edge up.
For crust lip technique, watch Marc Malnati:

Thanks!

Many are trying to get a super-golden brown crust, but the texture is more important than the color.
Don't expect tender super-flaky, like you'd see from a pie or a puff pastry.
This crust is going to be closer to crispy/crumbly, like one of those pecan sandies cookies.
I've had many deep dish pizzas from Malnati's and Uno that are much lighter in color that some of the pizzas we bake in this forum.

My ideal pizza is, admittedly, a flakier almost pie-like crust. Having searched literally YEARS for a UNO's substitute, this appears at least to be the closest thing yet.

My crust DOES have the resemblance of a Pecan Sandy, although it is definitely CRUNCHIER than one... and not in the way one would like. While eating the leftovers today, I will definitely say that YES I believe I had too much dough. The cooked center of the pizza dough was nearly a half-inch thick. I don't care who you are, that's just too much. ;) Again, I think the kitchen scale will help me sort out this issue... and even if it doesn't, I'll know that I have too much dough and roll even thinner before panning and take out the excess.

I usually preheat my oven at 500 degrees and then turn it down to 450 right after I put the pizza in the oven.
I also highly recommend, if you don't have one, to get an oven thermometer (one that hangs off one of your oven racks)
to verify the temp of your oven.
You should be baking on the lowest rack of your oven, and then, like you mentioned,  if you want your toppings or the top of your crust to get more brown, you can definitely move the pizza to the top rack in the last 10 minutes of baking, but keep an eye on your pizza or things may start burning.

From the photos, it looks like you got pretty close. Nice Job!
How big was your pizza and how much time did you bake it in total?

I have a 14" Chicago Metallic Bakalon that I use. I baked it for maybe 35-40 mins... but like I said, it was already starting to crisp at about the 15-20 mark. I should really use a timer. :P I'll also see if I can get my hands on a thermometer.

Thanks very much for the feedback and suggestions!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on December 16, 2010, 03:22:12 PM
Was reading back into this thread and found this:

To nitpick it a bit, I'm someone that likes to cook hotter and faster.  If I'm using my stone, I preheat it on the lowest rack (I have an exposed element) at 550* and drop to 475* when the pie goes in.  I don't cook a 14" much more than 20 mins.  Marc Malnati said in one of the many videos I've seen that he cooks until the sides pull away from the pan.  Now I've found that to be too soon to pull it but I don't leave it in much longer than that.  I like the crust when it's golden but not really browning too much.  I don't like it too dry.

Damn, by the 15-20 minute mark, my 14"-er was already pulled away from the edge. Could it be that my "425" is actually 475?? That would explain why my first attempt was practically destroyed by the heat. :o
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kerty9 on December 30, 2010, 11:37:40 PM
Thanks BTB for this recipe, I followed your recipe on page 15, and Pizza came out almost perfect, not bad for my first try at it.

The only problem I ran into was that it came out too watery as slices were almost running. I had drained 6-1 tomatos for 5-7min, had sauted vegetables(mushroom, green peppers, spinach) and yet amount of water was excessive. I did not use any meat or sausage as I am vegetarian. Any suggestions how to avoid watery pizza?

Although my sauce came out tasty, I am not sure I had all the additives in correct portions. I did not know how much honey to add, how much oragno, garlic and basil to add. So I added only 1TBS of honey, about same 1TBS of Oragno, Garlic and Basil for 14' pie.  I would like to know how much I should add these things for optimum taste.

Lastly, you mentioned rotating the pie 180 degree half way during the baking. What does that do in a Gas oven? I can understand doing it in a wood/fire oven so that all sides get evenly cooked. In a gas oven, what does rotating pizza accomplish?

Again thanks for recipe and your tips, because of which, my family now thinks I am an expert Pizza-maker!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 31, 2010, 09:44:12 AM
Thanks K9.  Just some thoughts.  In your case we know the water issue is not caused by the dough or crust ingredients and we know its not the meat, cause there was none.  Nine out of 10 times an excessively watery pizza is caused by either the cheese or sauce, or sometimes wet vegetables or other toppings.  I drain the 6 in 1's for 10 to 15 minutes, but its "judgmental" and one should view it to ensure that you don't have too watery a can.  But generally not.
 
The cheese may be the source of the problem if it is of the "fresh" mozzarella kind (the delicious kind).  If not, "whole milk" cheese brands vary in quality and consistency and sometimes can give off too much water.  The usual kind for deep dish styles is "low moisture, part skimmed" cheese.  That's kind of the standard, altho I like to put little pieces of the fresh kind for variety from time to time, but then I risk getting a pizza for which the contents inside the pan move about too much making extraction of the pie from the deep dish pan a little more challenging or difficult.
 
I don't do much with vegetables (but my daughters do), but heard many others say here that they can also be the source of water in a pizza, so maybe others can comment on that.  I know there were comments in other threads on that, but can't locate them for the moment.  I am in your case suspecting that it is, but can't be certain.
 
On rotating the pizzas, all home ovens are notoriously uneven in the heating cavity, save for some super deluxe and expensive models, so with all style pizzas Peter and many of the real experts here always recommend rotating the pizza midway through the bake cycle, whether gas, electric, wood, coal or what-not.  Rotating 180 degrees just helps get an even bake of the pizza crust in most any home oven, gas, electric or otherwise.  Heck, some even rotate 3 or 4 times during the bake cycle.
 
Additives to the sauce can fill volumes of thread pages and I've turned around 180 degrees on this and am thinking at present (may change again next year) that less is more.  It is a very personal thing and all should do "trial and error" to determine what you and yours like the best.  I don't do exact portions and do the "wing-it" procedure.  To me that's generally pinches or brief shakes of various additives.  I think your 3 additives are excellent, but even for a large 14" I would be hesitant to add as much as 1 Tbs each of oregano and basil (2 of my favorites).  The Tbs of honey may be fine and I think that is a great thing to add to the tomato sauce. 
 
I know it's unorthodox, but I generally only add sugar or honey (and maybe a half to whole tsp of minced garlic) to the sauce while draining and stir it up a little.  After sufficiently drained, I put it onto the pizza (over the cheese and toppings) and THEN put pinches of oregano and basil on top of the sauce laying on the pizza (and then afterwards put on the parmesan or romano grated cheese).  In the case of a 14" pan, I'd probably do 2 to 3 pinches of each evenly as possible all over the pizza.  Now I know that's very imprecise and it wouldn't read well in a cook book, but its served me well and I advise others to experiment and see what they like best.  But in the few short years since I got into home pizzamaking, I've learned some hard lessons when making some great pizzas about "excessive spices and additives" that kind of ruined a whole day or two's work.  "Less is More."
 
Have fun with your pizzamaking, continue to let your family know that you are the expert pizzamaker, and let us know from time to time how things are going.
 
                                                                                                        --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 06, 2011, 10:25:52 AM
A nice review of Malnati's pizza on today's Slice at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/lou-malnatis-chicago-best-deep-dish-pizza.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29 (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/lou-malnatis-chicago-best-deep-dish-pizza.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29) .

I agree with the final comment about " . . . it's one of the best deep dish pizzas known to man."
                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kerty9 on January 14, 2011, 01:29:40 PM
BTB

Thanks for excellent feedback and tips. I have not made this Pizza again since I posted here as I have been mostly making Margritta Pizza lately, but my family loved Pizza from your recipe, so I will be making it again soon.  Your feedback will certainly benefit my Pizza skills.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kerty9 on January 24, 2011, 10:15:41 PM
I followed BTB's recipe on page 15 with slight alterations for 14' pie. It came out perfect this time.

Dough
-------
345g   King Arther All Purpose Flour
115g   Bob's Red Mill Semolina
.9tsp   ADY
7.2Oz  water
2Tbs    butter/margerine
1.6tsp  sugar
5g       salt
2Tbs    Olive Oil
4Tbs    Corn Oil

Toppings:
---------
1lb      Mozz slices
1tsp    Dry Organo
8        Fresh Basil leaves
2        clove Garlic sliced
10       Mushrooms sliced
1/2      Green Pepper
1/3bag Spinach
2Tbs    Oil(for oiling the pan)
pinch    salt


Sauce
------
28oz    Can of  6-in-1 Tomato, Drained for 30min
3         peeled San Marzano Tomatos, chopped into smaller bits
5         clove Garlic, blended into a paste
2 Pinch Dry Oragno and Basil
1Tbs    honey
1Tbs    Red wine vinegar
1tsp    Freshly crushed black peppers

Preparation
=========

Dough Preparation - previous evening
-----------------
Mix warm water and ADY in a bowl that can be used for making dough
Weigh an empty bowl, and than add Semolina, and than AP Flour and than salt and than sugar as per their weight/measurements
warm up butter and let it cool


add oil and butter to the water and ADY mixture
add in flour gradually
knead it for 2-3min and make it into a dough ball
cover the dough ball in a well-oiled bowl & let it rest at room temp for 3hrs
(at this point, the dough ball would have risen by at lease 50% to 100%)
Punch it down and let it rest again at room temp for 3hrs
Punch it down and let it rest at room temperature for 2hours
put the bowl in a fridge overnight


Topping preparations:
-------------------------

Take 1-2t olive oil in a cooking pan and heat it medium heat
add all veggie toppings and stir fry them
add some salt so veggies release most of their water
Scoop out all the water released during stir fry using spoon
After spinach and veggies get little tender, place them on paper towel to remove all remaining moisture from veggies

Sauce Preparation
---------------------
drain 6-in-1 tomato for 30min, occasionally stirring it so all water drains out
add san marzano tomatoes, chopped into small pieces
add dry oragno, basil
add garlic and crushed black pepper
add wine vinegar(optional)
add honey
add salt

Make a Pie
------------

oil up a Pizza pan using a brush
Spread the dough over the pan
oil up pie before putting any toppings
Mozz cheese goes first
place garlic and basil so every piece gets a bite of it
add rest of the toppings
add sauce
sprinkle parmason cheese

Oven procedure
------------------

pre-heat at 500 for 30min
place the Pizza pan on a bottom rack
turn down temp to 450
after 15min, rotate the pan 180
after 25-28min, take out the pizza
let it cool for 4-5min before serving it

This was my second try at this pizza and it came out very good.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on January 29, 2011, 12:56:53 PM
Hey BTB I attempted to make your dough but i have a question i followed your initial instructions to the T but i was wondering does your dough rise in the 25 minutes that you instructed? I thought it took hours for it to rise. I'm a noobie and it's the first time i made pizza dough.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on January 29, 2011, 03:03:39 PM
I have some questions regarding making your recipe for deep dish.
1. Before putting the dough aside would you say that your dough is a little dry? Or if so should i add a little bit more water to hydrate it more?
2.When you let the dough sit for the 25 minutes is the dough suppose to rise much?
3.After adding the butter and oils is your dough pretty wet and moist?
4. What would you recommend bake time and placement in oven for a 14 inch pie 2 inch deep 1.5 inch up the side.
Also would you mind if you could post some pictures of the dough as you make it. Like before you cover it, after you cover it and before you put it in the fridge? SORRY for all the questions im just really new at this...

I'm using this recipe
Flour (100%):  436.26 g  |  15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (45%):  196.32 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
ADY (.75%):  3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1%):  4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.82 tsp | 1.94 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  52.35 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.63 tsp | 3.88 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.53 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  6.54 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (172.25%): 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
    *The Flour Blend can be (1) all KAAP flour, or (2) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.) and
      20% semolina (87.25 g/3 oz.), or (3) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.), 12% semolina
      (52.35 g/1.85 oz.) and 8% rice flour (34.9 g/1.23 oz.)
-Thanks
Matt
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 30, 2011, 08:50:12 AM
Hey BTB I attempted to make your dough but i have a question i followed your initial instructions to the T but i was wondering does your dough rise in the 25 minutes that you instructed? I thought it took hours for it to rise. I'm a noobie and it's the first time i made pizza dough.
I don't recall ever suggesting just a 25 minute rise and let me know where you found that and I'll have that corrected.  Regarding proofing the dough, I usually transfer the dough ball to a slightly oiled bowl (turning the dough to get the ball oiled up a bit), wrap it with plastic wrap on top of the bowl, put it into a very slightly warmed oven (too warm will kill the yeast and dough rise), leave it in for from 45 to 60 minutes, take it out and knock down the dough ball and reform it, recover with the plastic wrap and either (1) leave it on the counter in a warm part of the kitchen for 6 to 10 hours if it will be "same day use dough" or (2) put it in a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator for a day or two if it will be "retarded" or later use dough.  If refrigerated, best to take out 2 hours prior to use to get to room temperature.  And also, I often put it back into the slightly warmed oven for another hour or so for a nice second rise.  ED- I see the last sentence can be confusing as I don't mean that after refrigeration, but only for "same day" dough.

Now the above is my preferred way of doing it.  But many of our members do things successfully in somewhat of a different manner, which probably shows that there's not just one right way.  For instance, many of our members do not let the dough rise and put it into the refrigerator right away.  I've successfully done that, but my preference is for at least one rise prior to refrigeration.

Welcome to our site.  Let me know if you have any other questions.  Opps, I just noted below that you do have some more questions and I'll take a look and respond to them, too.

                                                                                  --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on January 30, 2011, 10:34:37 AM
Your first post in this thread said "I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours." Also what temperature what you recommend the oven be when proofing the dough?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 30, 2011, 12:08:18 PM
You're right, Matt, and time and experience have moved on, but just a little bit.  It'll be good both ways, but my latest expressions right above I think are an improvement to earlier thoughts. 
I have some questions regarding making your recipe for deep dish.
1. Before putting the dough aside would you say that your dough is a little dry? Or if so should i add a little bit more water to hydrate it more?
2.When you let the dough sit for the 25 minutes is the dough suppose to rise much?
3.After adding the butter and oils is your dough pretty wet and moist?
4. What would you recommend bake time and placement in oven for a 14 inch pie 2 inch deep 1.5 inch up the side.

Regarding the dough being a ltitle dry, generally it is not, but if so, I would not add water as I prefer it that way.  But it is judgmental as to whether it is too dry. Just a drop or two if you feel it appropriate.  If it forms up nice on the edge of the deep dish pan, that's the way I love it (but if real, real stiff, then add a little bit of something).  Most deep dish enthusiasts complain the other way around that the sides of the dough in the deep dish pan will NOT stay up, which is another issue. 
 
In #3, however, you asked with butter and oil is the dough pretty wet and moist and my answer is generally no, but sometimes yes (and it's hard to explain why sometimes yes and no).  But when too oily, just add a little AP at a time until reduced the oily feel slightly (but not entirely).  I've come to prefer softening the butter a lot as opposed to melting it.  Too cold a butter, however, may lead to "overworking the dough" which is not good for deep dish style pizza.
 
Regarding your last question, it is not a simple one to answer for home oven application as so much depends on one's oven's characteristics, the style and kind of pan (shiny or not), and a number of other things.  Unfortunately, I have to revert to the old saying . . . trial and error are the best teachers.  In my oven (GE Profile electric with NO heating elements apparent), I would put a 14"pie, 2 inch deep, 1.5 inch up the side at between 450 degrees to 475 degrees F for anywhere from 35 to 55 minutes (big spread, I know) on the absolute botton rack, but most ovens with apparent heating elements should not.  I would "check" the bottom of the pizza with a tiny frosting spatula about 30 minutes to see the degree of doneness on the underside of the crust, and move up a level or two only if it appears too browned.  After much experience with your oven, you'll never have to do this again.  The key is . . . learning the tricks and things regarding one's oven . . . as simple as that seemingly sounds.  Remember, home ovens are entirely different from the big commercial ones.. 
 
Withholding flour, as suggested in many recipes is called "analylyse" and there are dozens of defiinitions of that term.  It will be advantageous when you get more experience under your belt to learn of the techniques (of which there are too many), but I suggest (regardless of your age) to pass on it for the time being and just mix without the withholding of flour.  Often times the experts found the difference to be "insignificant", but I think there is definite value.
 
I think I have some pictures of the dough ball as you asked, but am unsure and will search my many computer files for such.  I have a computer "up north" and a computer "down south" and am unsure where such may exist.  But in the meantime, your interest and enthusiasm is catchy and many of us are anxious to see the results of your trials and tribulations.   
 
I hope I've been a little helpful and that you will make your report on your successes (hopefully with pictures) and make us all excited to repeat and work from your successes and trials.  Best of luck.
 
                                                                                                   --BTB           :P
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on January 31, 2011, 12:13:20 PM
What i noticed from when i made my pie is it came out not as thick as i was hoping for and was missing the crunch i was looking for. Not making excuses but it was my first dough and i have much room for improvement. Please critique the pie since that is the best way for me to improve don't pull any punches because i want to learn. One thing i learned was to make more sauce since i felt it was too little using only 1 can of crushed tomato's.  I also believe i didn't cook it long enough in the oven.
Also BTB for proofing the dough in the oven what temp would you recommend i use and what rack level would you recommend?

Here a link to the album
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/Chicago%20Deep%20Dish/
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 31, 2011, 12:24:56 PM
What i noticed from when i made my pie is it came out not as thick as i was hoping for and was missing the crunch i was looking for. Not making excuses but it was my first dough and i have much room for improvement. Please critique the pie since that is the best way for me to improve don't pull any punches because i want to learn. One thing i learned was to make more sauce since i felt it was too little using only 1 can of crushed tomato's.  I also believe i didn't cook it long enough in the oven.
Also BTB for proofing the dough in the oven what temp would you recommend i use and what rack level would you recommend?

Here a link to the album
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/Chicago%20Deep%20Dish/


Just lookin' at the photos, it looks like you're on the money, except for the sausage being on top.
What makes you think you didn't cook it long enough?
How long did you bake it, and what temp?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on January 31, 2011, 02:04:56 PM
Just lookin' at the photos, it looks like you're on the money, except for the sausage being on top.
What makes you think you didn't cook it long enough?
How long did you bake it, and what temp?

Yes the sausage was on top even after i layered the sauce on top because i had minimal sauce, it was a 14 inch pie and the 1 can of crushed tomatoes wasn't enough. I cooked it at 460 for 35 minutes on the lowest rack rotating 180 degrees every 10 minutes and then another 5 on the top rack.
I think it was slightly undercooked because the bottom of the pizza was a little sponge like is the best way to describe it. Maybe if i cook it on a stone it will fix this?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: clg763 on January 31, 2011, 06:32:03 PM
I have cooked both on and off a pizza stone, I typically have my best results without it. It looks like you may need to season your pan though. The outside of your pizza pan needs to be very dark otherwise it won't absorb as much radiant heat and brown the crust as well.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 31, 2011, 06:34:43 PM
I have cooked both on and off a pizza stone, I typically have my best results without it. It looks like you may need to season your pan though. The outside of your pizza pan needs to be very dark otherwise it won't absorb as much radiant heat and brown the crust as well.

Try only rotating once, if at all, and leave it in for maybe 5-10 minutes more if you feel the need.

Also, springy bottom crust might just be a dough timing thing. You might need to punch it down more before you press it out into the pan.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 01, 2011, 09:56:40 AM
doughboy55,

Some excellent suggestions above by clg and vcb.  I would suggest, however, that it is generally advantageous in the average home oven to rotate 180 degrees at least once (but I, too, often do more).  Some of the premium oven models may not need such, but one quick opening of the oven door I hopefully don't think is tragic.  But if you do or you don't, I don't think it's critical.  What kind of oven do you use (gas, electric, etc)?
 
A couple of years ago, I, too, used to use a pizza stone, but I, too, have had the best results without it.  Not to say that with certain other style pizzas, use of a pizza stone may be appropriate. But if one wants to try it with a stone, that's perfectly acceptable. 

Your pictures showed an excellent looking pizza that -- like Ed said -- is "on the money."  I know pictures can be a little deceiving and the taste of the pizza cannot be clearly shown or appreciated in a picture.  The amount of sauce looked fine.  For a 14" I would estimate from about 15 to 20 oz. of crushed tomato sauce and that depends on one's preferences (for a little or alot).  What size of can and kind of crushed tomato's were you referring to.  The usual size can is a 28 oz. and that's usually too much for 14" pizza.  I know I have to answer your PM on the sauce, too.

I would have cooked the pizza longer as it appears to have too little browning, but many of our members prefer just a slight touch of golden browning. I just like to watch the pizza through the oven window and pull it out when the color is right, which is a rich, deeper brown color than yours.  But like clg mentioned above, I suspect the devil is the shiny pan that appears in your photo that may possibly be the culprit.

I dislike shiny or silvery colored pizza pans for pizzamaking.  And I know some -- but not many -- who like them.  I'm uncertain of your background, but have you been to Uno's/Due's, Gino's, Malnati's etc and seen the "blackened," seasoned pans that the pizzas come in?  You will never see a shiny pan in their restaurants.  I and many more on this site will support the use of darkened pans as opposed to the shiny or undarkened pans.  I don't have the detailed explanation about this at my fingertips, but others may be able to describe better the reason why darker colored pans are much better for pizzamaking than the shiny aluminum or silver colored ones. But it is basically around the thoughts that clg mentioned above in that the shiny exterior will reflect the heat rather than importantly absorbing the heat and transferring that heat to the interior of the pan.  This is a deep subject . . . for deep dish pizzas, however.  LOL.

For proofing in the oven, my GE Profile electric oven will tell me the digital low temperature, but most ovens will not, so a little guesstimating may be needed.  I do from 90 to 100 degrees F.  Suggest one put the oven on to the lowest setting (which is usually around 200 degrees F) but not wait till it warms up till then.  Instead, one to two minutes later, shut the oven off and that should be good for proofing the dough. There are other devices for proofing, but I've found a slightly warmed oven to be the simplest and best IMO.  Rack level for proofing is not important, but I do mid level.  Again, use of an oven safe bowl covered with plastic wrap is advised.  After a short time, one will see water droplets form on the plastic wrap, so use of added water somehow in the oven for this I have not found to be necessary.  As a teenager I worked at big bakeries, however, where steam was needed in the proofing closets.

Getting that crunch that you think you're missing is sometimes easier said than done.  Some suggest more oil (or crisco) in the pan.  Some say its a recipe issue.  Some suggest the lowest "practical" rack in the oven to bake it on (which I definitely do, but it depends on your oven).  Do you use an electric oven with heating elements that are apparent and "glow" on the bottom of the oven?  Mine isn't like that.  Another suggestion, that I occasionally tried a couple of months ago and was pleased with the results, is par baking the deep dish skin for 5 minutes or so prior to dressing and final bake.  Now I know that's not how it's done at the famous deep dish pizzerias, but we (or at least I) don't have a commercial oven and must use all kinds of alternative methods, tricks and ideas to try to get close to duplicating the effects of that very special commercial "deck" oven that we can't hope to ever duplicate entirely at home.  My taste testers (friends and family) tell me that they don't think it needs to be par baked as they love it without it, but I sometimes just like to experiment a little more to see if I can do it better.  And you will, too.

In any event, you seem to be nicely on the road to making some great deep dish pizzas and am looking forward to hearing more about your future successes.  Keep records of your formulations and other things, cause you'll be at a loss later to remember what you did that was good or not so good.

                                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: clg763 on February 01, 2011, 10:58:20 AM
I would say it is pretty much imperative to rotate the pizzas in any oven, I was just baking a batch of my pizzas at a friend's house who has a top of the line Jenn Air electric convection oven. Even with the convect feature on, I still had to rotate the pizzas from side to side and front to back to get an even bake. If you think about it, a convection oven will speed up the baking process because of the fact that there is more air moving over the pizza and it is therefore able to impart more heat to it faster. However, there are still currents of warm air and cooler air as it moves through its cycle. The only way to fix this that I can think would be some sort of oscillating fan but I have yet to see an oven with this feature.

As for the blackened pans, vcb is absolutely correct, this is due to the fact that the black color absorbs all visible wavelengths of light (hence the black color) this even extends below the range of human acuity to the infrared frequencies. If you had a pair of IR goggles on, you would see your oven emitting a glow of dull red from all of its hot surfaces. This energy would be directly absorbed if the pan were black, a shiny pan however refracts most of the light, giving it its shiny appearance. This is why cakes bake so well in the shiny pans with essentially no browning at all. A simple coat of oil and a long bake at high heat are all that is needed to permanently season those pans to a beautiful black that knows how to cook pizzas right.

I have never had too much a problem getting a crunch from my pizza, fallow a few simple rules and I can guarantee you will have it. First, you do have to have a good dough recipe with enough oil, putting a coat on the pan helps out tremendously. Having a black pan cooking on the bottom rack is also essential to guaranteeing good browning. Lastly, it can also come down to the moisture content of your ingredients, a lot of wet veggies/meat/sauce can really make your pizza soggy as it bakes. I had a 9" pie cook for over an hour at 425 and it still never crisped on the edges.

Personally, I would like to experiment a little bit with steam impingement on my pizzas. I have done this with breads and it gives the best thin flaky crust with a soft interior. How it would work on deep dish, I don't know but I'd love to try it someday.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on February 01, 2011, 11:55:42 AM
I guess i will be buying a new pan, but on the other note i have a electric oven with a top temp of 525 and a convention oven feature. I will keep you updated on my pizza adventures and I am looking forward to experimenting to make the best pizza i can possibly make. Thanks for all the great suggestions too, much appreciated.
-Happy Baking
Matthew
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 01, 2011, 12:47:06 PM
Matt, FWIW while there are many good brand pans out there (Chicago Metallic at your local Bed, Bath and Beyond), among the best I think are the PSTK dark coated pans from Pizzatools.com (aka Lloyd Industries). And many others that can be suggested, but generally available by ordering over the internet only, but still the best.  Best to wait for the week for delivery.

And consider . . . just consider . . . instead of or in lieu of a big 14" pan getting a combination of some smaller sized pans (some for the kids and some for us and . . . ).  Most who contacted me regret getting too large a pan as smaller ones later met their needs better.

For Super Bowl Sunday, I looked back at some photos of past pizzas and here is "one of the best."  I'm licking my chops and planning on doing it again for the Packers and the Steelers.  Go . . . er . . . Bears? ? Oh, well.

                                                                                   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: clg763 on February 01, 2011, 01:05:27 PM
Personally, I just buy cheap cake pans from a restaurant supply store and season them black. I have had to collect a lot of pans to cover some of the events I do and this really keeps the costs down. I spend around $4-$6 for a pan, today I have over 30 of them in my collection (from 6"-16") and they only cost me about $150 total. They are very well made and stack fine due to the different sizes, If you want to go a lot of pans and just one size, stackable pans are definitely the way to go.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: doughboy55 on February 01, 2011, 02:55:08 PM
Yes i do plan on buying a smaller 9 inch pan or a 12 because the 14 inch pizza is a lot of pizza. I ate a couple of slices and i was full for the entire day. Oh and btw the tomatoes i used were a 28 ounce Italian import but the brand name is slipping my mind right now. Now in retrospect i liked the pizza with not as much tomatoes anyways, and to answer your second question the only deep dish pizza i have had was in San Diego 2 weeks ago when i was on vacation. The place was named Lefty's my Uncle knew the owner and was a pretty nice guy. He grew up in Chicago in an Italian persons house ( i think he was adopted by the family) and he was taught the recipe and then ended up "perfecting" it in his kitchen and then ended up moving out there and opening two very successful pizzerias.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/leftys-chicago-pizzeria-san-diego-3
It was pretty damn good, I believe he uses corn flour in his recipe.

That deep dish you made on the super bowl looks damn good.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 02, 2011, 09:00:40 AM
If you want to go a lot of pans and just one size, stackable pans are definitely the way to go.

clg763,

In the context of storage of lots of pans, did you mean "nestable" rather than "stackable"? Apparently, pan producers draw a distinction, as evidenced by http://www.pizzatools.com/Deep_Dish_Stacking/30873/subgrouping.htm and http://www.pizzatools.com/Deep_Dish_Nesting/30872/subgrouping.htm.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: clg763 on February 02, 2011, 10:27:28 AM
Either one is preferable to a standard pan when you have a lot of them in a particular size, nestable pans are the ideal I suppose. Personally I haven't used either before so I can't comment on their usability or performance. Since I have a bunch in 6" 7" 9" 10" 12" 14" and 16" the normal style fits in a similar space since I just put each pan inside the next and stack the groups.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on February 20, 2011, 11:27:07 PM
I normally use a pair of 14" Chicago Metallic pans I got years ago.  They are not the commercial weight pans that are available now.  They're well worn, but after a recent experiment where I made a pair of 9" in some Williams-Sonoma cake pans, I'm going to order some of the American Metal Craft pans.  There was a huge difference in the quality of my pies -- more even cooking, they baked off their moisture more efficiently resulting in both a crisp crust and a moist but not soggy interior.  Much better results.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: DL on February 24, 2011, 09:17:53 PM
Hi everyone.  First time poster - long time baker.  I would like to extend a huge thanks to BTB for his awesome work in this thread.  Disclaimer: I have never had a Malnati pizza.  In fact I rarely have deep dish.  Other than a pizza at Uno (few and far between) and one deep dish from a Chicago Nancy's chain I don't know much about them.  Well I spent a few days formulating what approach I wanted to take, I found this thread, and my finished product was amazing (not just because I made it).  The biggest problem I had was getting the darn pie out of the pan.  I let it cool for a few min before attempting to take it out of the pan (it even retraced a bit away from the edge of the pan) but it just did not want to cooperate.  After breaking/cracking part of the crust gave up until more than half was gone.  Not sure if the dough was too dry or brittle or if it was just bad luck. . .felt like a rookie.  Anyway I'll list the %'s below.  (I used the deep dish calculator for help with the calculations - it worked great - THANKS!)

DOUGH:
Flour 100% - I used 22% semolina calculated outside the deep dish tool
Water 47%
Salt .5%
Olive Oil 5%
Canola Oil 12%
Butter 2.5%
Shortening 2.5%
Sugar 1.5%
Cream of Tartar .5%
TOTAL 172.3%

SAUCE: Coarse crushed tomatoes with salt, oil, and spices

Baked in a 9" x 2" Chicago Metallic cake pan - 450 for about 22 min or so.

I adjusted the oil %'s trying to keep the oil level high while at the same time trying to create a "light" tasting dough.  I think I hit it out of the park.  The salt and sugar gave it just enough of a flavor.  I decided to up the butter % aiming for more butter flavor - not sure if I went high enough for that.  Finally, I decided to include the shortening hoping to create a lighter tasting flavor while ensuring it was still flaky/crumbly.  Again - not much experience from eating out - but I think the results were amazing.  I was more than happy with the end product.  I'm looking forward to hearing from you all.

The pictures and post were an afterthought.  They don't really do the product justice.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ksmama08 on February 25, 2011, 08:24:12 AM
I have seen many people mention a deep dish calculator. I have not been able to find the calculator. Would someone mind posting the link for it?

Thanks
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 25, 2011, 08:31:45 AM
See if this works . . .http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_tools.html)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ksmama08 on February 25, 2011, 08:42:07 AM
Thank you so much, it is exactly what I was looking for.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 25, 2011, 09:06:42 AM
Nice job and welcome to the site, DL.  "Extraction" -- not to use the dreaded dental term -- of a baked pizza from a deep dish pan can sometimes be an issue, but for me has only been so with larger size pans, like 12" diameter and above.  But with a little practice (and maybe unfortunately some difficult spills) even the large pans can be worked with nicely.  But for 9" pans and smaller, I generally have no problems.  Hopefully there was enough oil or crisco in the pan under the crust so the crust doesn't stick to it, but if it did, use of a number kitchen devices can help in loosening it up.  I like to use a small "frosting" spatula moving it under the crust and around 360 degrees so you know the pizza is freed up from the pan.  Check out the tool I mentioned in the posting above at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg116670.html#msg116670 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg116670.html#msg116670) .  And tapered-sided pans are a little easier to get the pizza out and onto the cutting board, but many of us still prefer the traditional straight-sided pans.

Good luck and hope you continue to enjoy making some great pizzas.

                                                                                 --BTB          :D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: DL on February 25, 2011, 12:45:58 PM
Thanks BTB.  The crust/pan performed beautifully.  As the pizza cooled it behaved nicely (as it should) by retreating from the sided of the pan and there was no sticking involved anywhere.  I think it was more of a equipment issue but who knows - the only way to fix it is to make more pizza  ;D  I checked out the other thread.  Where did you get that wonderful spatula?  That is exactly what I am looking for. 

I have been inundated reading through the threads and lost track of who is using what formulation when.  Did I see you currently using rice flour?  Or currently durum in addition to the AP?  What are your thoughts on those?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: fireman117 on March 06, 2011, 12:24:01 PM
Hi,
I'm giving this recipe a try based on BTB's #16 post. I used the deep dish calculator for a 10 inch pie, and made the adjustment for the 20% semolina. I weighed all the ingredients carefully on a gram scale, but something does not seem right.  There was so much oil I couldn't knead it all in. I had about a teaspoon left even after I added a teaspoon or so more flour. The dough ball is very wet with oil. So the question is, is this normal? To me this doesn't look right, but this is my first attempt so I don't have anything to compare it to.  I hope someone out there could take a look at the numbers I have from the calculator and advise me before I go ahead and make the pie tonight.

Flour 100% 249.7 g - 49.94 for the semolina =199.76g
Semolina 20%  49.94 g
H2O 47% 117.36
IDY .75% 1.87g
NaCl .5% 1.25g
Olive Oil 5% 12.48g
Corn Oil  18% 44.95g
Butter 1% 2.5 g
Total 172.25% 430.11g
TF .1288
Thank you very much
Eric
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 06, 2011, 01:53:43 PM
Eric, I took a real quick look at your numbers and even tho you had a few differences (like IDY vs ADY and am uncertain if you accounted for bowl residue), your numbers are definitely in the ball park  Regarding whether your experience is "right" is hard to say.  The mixture often -- but not too often -- is a little oily and all are encouraged to add a little flour at a time to get to a dough that isn't excessively oily.  But the fact is that Chicago Deep Dish pizza is indeed one that has a lot of oil in it.  That's a given.  Sometimes we add a little more oil or water than we think, but who knows.  Use some more bench flour when spreading or rolling out the dough to fit the deep dish pan and let us know how things turned out.

                                                                                   --BTB

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: fireman117 on March 06, 2011, 04:27:46 PM
BTB,
Thanks for the good news. I'm going to try it out tonight, and I'll let you know how it comes out. I just took the dough out of the fridge and it looks much better today. Hopefully it will cooperate when I roll it out.
Also, I did use a 1.5% bowl residue, I just forgot to list it.

Thanks,
Eric
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on March 06, 2011, 05:51:35 PM
Eric, for best results, don't roll it!  Pat it out in the pan and pinch it up the sides.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 06, 2011, 07:47:25 PM
Eric, below is a picture of the dough in the pans for two small deep dish pizzas that I made a week or so ago.  The one on the left is a 7" diameter pan and the one on the right is a 6".  I don't know if you can notice it from the picture, but there is just a little sheen from the oil, but not much.  Matter of fact, the dough is fairly stiff and stays up nicely when pinched up against the edge of the pan without any problem.  The formulation that I used was a little different from that mentioned earlier and was as follows:

Flour (100%)
Water (45%)
ADY (.6%)
Salt (1%)
Olive Oil (6%)  
Corn Oil (12%)  
Butter/Margarine (6%)
Sugar (1.5%)  
TF = 0.111

You can vary or eliminate the butter if one wants.  Substitute with some oil or shortening if desired, but I wouldn't recommend going over 22% with the oil anymore.  Matter of fact, I'm even backing up to 20% or so often times.  I've come 180 degrees around on how to introduce the butter to the dough mixture, too, having done melted and cooled butter for so long.  I've found using melted butter does often leads to a little more oily dough and I now add super softened butter to the dough mixture instead.  One then needs to be careful to avoid overworking the dough in order to incorporate the butter, but I've found it best not to worry about fully incorporating all the butter anyway.

Yes, I never roll out the dough for a deep dish pizza, but I press it out first a little on the counter, then the remainder in the pan and like Loo said pinch it up the sides.  For those with not too much experience with deep dish pizzamaking, I recommend using Crisco on the bottom of the pan (not the sides).  Use of olive oil, which I slightly prefer, is a little trickier to use (in the sense of avoiding the oil running up the sides of the pan as you press the dough into the pan and having the oil running out onto the dough skin).

Hope your pizza went well.  Remember its a learning curve.

                                                                                              --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 06, 2011, 07:51:58 PM
Oh, here's a picture of one of those great tasting pizzas that got devoured in a short period of time.   On both I put too much mozzarella cheese under the sauce, but many would say . . . "you can never have enough cheese! !"  Hope you share with us some pictures in the future as we always like to see others winners and even losers from time to time.

                                                                             --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 07, 2011, 09:56:53 AM
Regarding the cheese in the pizza above, I think the amount of mozzarella cheese that I used was roughly 4.5 oz. plus, plus for a 6" to 7" diameter pie, which I think is about an oz. or two too much, but who's counting?  The cheese was Polly-O Whole Milk cheese which won the Slice website's No. 1 pizza cheese rating in the last couple of week's (yes, we know it's owned by Kraft) and who Sliced described it as a "low-moisture" cheese, which I'm still wondering about.  But it was deeeeeelicious.

                                                                                         --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on March 07, 2011, 10:05:35 AM
BTB, could you post a link to the Slice review?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 07, 2011, 10:26:09 AM
BTB, could you post a link to the Slice review?
Yes, I don't know about "the best" but it is very, very good.  See: http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/the-pizza-lab-the-best-low-moisture-mozzarella-for-pizzas.html .  But I didn't think it was "low moisture."  But I'm not the pizza cheese expert.  Just a taster.

--BTB

Edit:  Am having a little problem reciting the website, but see if the above modification worked.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: fireman117 on March 07, 2011, 01:13:57 PM
Hi All,
Well, I made it last night and we all thought it was AWESOME! The oiliness seemed to go away for the most part after the 24 hr rise. I didn't see the later posts concerning the rolling, and I did that, but it didn't seem to hurt it one bit. I simply trimmed the excess off with a shears and did the pinching thing. My boss is from the Chicago area, and a Lou Malnati's nut, so I gave him a cold slice this morning. He took a sniff, then a bite, and exclaimed it was 99% there compared to Malnati's, so I guess it went OK.
BTB, I changed up a couple of things from you're recipe that I'd like to report on. I used Dakota Maid bread flour instead of KAAP and some semolina that comes in bulk from the Italian Grocer here in town. I used your spice set except for the ginger, because I didn't know if you use fresh or powder, or how much, and that's one of those spices that can get out of hand in a hurry. Overall the seasoning was subtle. Also, I thought the Penzeys pizza seasoning was a very good way to go. I drained the 6in1's to remove some of the water. That concentrated the taste, but left the pie a little too dry for my taste. And I baked it in a Sassafras 10" ceramic dish, (the same stuff as a pizza stone I think), and used what is called a pie ring around the edge. The dish and the ring worked great. The pie slipped right out of the dish was evenly browned on the bottom and the ring kept the edge from getting burned. Overall a very good first experience. I'll post some pix when I get home tonight.
Thanks all for the help,
Eric
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: fireman117 on March 08, 2011, 04:43:27 PM
Here's a few pix from my first attempt at a Chicago style.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: fireman117 on March 08, 2011, 04:45:58 PM
...and some more
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 12, 2011, 03:32:12 PM
Very nice job, Eric, your pizza looks very tasty.  Even tho the pan is not one of those normally used, as well as the pie ring, it shows that "there's more than one way to skin a cat."  Opps . . . my cat just ran under the bed! ! !

Several had emailed me inquiring about the formulations of the 2 small pizzas that I made above.  Global events have really diverted attention from some of our more mundane tasks.  My thoughts and prayers go out, of course, to those suffering in Japan and Libya (and elsewhere).

With the 2 pizzas referenced in Rely #438 above, as indicated there the basic formulation (with 1.5% bowl residue) was

Flour Blend* (100%)
Water (45%)
ADY (.6%)
Salt (1%)
Olive Oil (6%)   
Corn Oil (12%) 
Butter/Margarine (6%) - softened
Sugar (1.5%) 
TF = 0.111

With use of the Deep-Dish Pizza Dough Calculating Tool (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html), one can easily determine in seconds the exact amounts and weights of the ingredients for any size pizza they would want to make.

For one of the pizzas (6") the flour blend was simply 80% KAAP and 20% semolina flour.  The other pizza (7") was 80% KAAP, 14% semolina and 6% white rice flour.  As the crust was a little thin, I think next time I will revert the Thickness Factor (TF) back to my standard .125, altho the difference may be insignificant.  With both I did add 1/4th tsp of NFDM, which is completely optional.

As I indicated elsewhere, my son said the one with the small amount of rice flour was the "clear winner."  I love real good pizza so much that I have a tough time saying that one is much better than another, and here they both were great.  And I love the idea of the small size pizzas to try different variations in the dough recipe to have a side-by-side comparison with.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 12, 2011, 03:36:58 PM
I used the Malnati's tomato sauce, which is "out of this world" great.  But there is some great comparable stuff out there, too.  I baked the pizza on a low oven rack at between 450 and 475 degree F until done and that of course depends upon the characteristics of one's oven.  When in doubt use mid oven level or one level down from mid-level IMO.  I think after this posting, I'm going to head for the kitchen to see what kind of pizza to prepare for tomorrow's use.

                                                                                                           --BTB          ;D


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 12, 2011, 03:39:30 PM
And, of course, some simple added ingredients, besides the Polly-O cheese mentioned above, makes for a great tasting pizza meal.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on March 31, 2011, 12:48:17 PM
So, BTB, are you still making one-day doughs, mainly? About how long are you letting them sit before the first punch-down and then before panning them?

I sort of decided on a whim to make pizza tonight -- gotta clear out some leftover toppings from my "nearlypolitan" experiment last week. ;) I've been really looking forward to trying DD again! Will post results tonight!

--Update:

Dough-ball is the best one yet. (Did I mention I finally got a scale?) Unlike previous iterations, it isn't dry and play-doh-y, though it *may* be on the slightly-oily side. Slightly. Took about 2 minutes, max, to bring together. Currently resting in a warm oven! =)

--Update 2:

Panned this baby. It felt unlike any other dough I've handled. It might have been just a bit too wet, but there was absolutely no elasticity in the dough whatsoever. It was like I was molding clay into my pan. Since I do not have any smaller form-factor deep dish pans (yet), I used my cast iron skillet. 7" bottom, angled into a 9.5" top. I plugged BTB's most recent formulation (just up the page a few posts) into the DD_calculator, with a .125 TF, otherwise, everything else was identical.

I had some leftover cheese: a half package of shredded motz and some "fresh" motz from the aforementioned "nearlypolitan" experiment. I know, I know, the fresh motz is too wet... I ignored the warnings.

The sausage was a spicy italian from the deli counter at my local grocery store (Cub Foods, a Supervalu chain). In previous pizzas and pastas, I discovered it was underwhelmingly un-spicy, so I added just the lightest dusting of cayenne pepper (and I'm glad that I did - it's spectacular).

I added some sauted shrooms, banana peppers (my current favorite pizza topping) and a few more mozzarella pearls, in hopes that they would bubble up through the sauce.

The sauce is Muir Glen crushed tomatoes and Red Gold diced, further chopped into a bit more pulpy of a consistency. I had purchased a lot of fresh basil, so that's in there too. I was just a bit short on sauce from last week that I had to supplement with about a quarter to half cup of Classico Marinara. Not ideal, but it wasn't the end of the world.

I wedged some pepperoni in at a slight angle to promote a bit of charring, which I like. Lastly, I dusted in parmasan.

More pics to follow...

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on March 31, 2011, 10:48:27 PM
Since I've had issues with too much heat in the past, I cooked her at "400 degrees" (I'm presuming it's hotter) on the middle rack. I checked roughly every 5 minutes. (Yes I was paranoid!) After 25 minutes, the edge was pulling away from the side and the pepperoni was starting to char so I decided to yank it.

The pizza was a bit wet, but I figured on account of the cheese, mushrooms and banana peppers, it would be. The bottom crust was just slightly under-cooked, so I would consider upping the cook-time by another 5 or so minutes. I think the temp was about right.

Overall, this pizza tasted fantastic. Hands-down the best pizza I've made. That's of course not to say that I'm totally satisfied, and like you, I now begin the quest to tweak and "perfect" this recipe to my liking... if there is such a thing as a perfect pizza! ;)

I'd like to thank you all for helping me finally get to a good starting point for my deep dish journey!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 01, 2011, 10:52:33 AM
Good work and pictures, Clive.  I like a guy (or gal) who puts so much work and passion into something they really love so much.  I have lots of thoughts and comments on your great pizzamaking work and I'll probably return periodically to express them as they come to mind.

Initially, . . . . my first punch down is 45 to 60 minutes after putting the dough ball together and leaving it in a very, very slightly warmed oven (roughly 100 degrees F).  50% of the time I return it to the slightly warmed oven for a like period of time or then just leave it on the counter (away from my AC ducts) and again punch it down after a similar period.  I don't have a hard and fast rule here and just every now and then over 6 to 12 hours (for same day) punch it down and reform the dough ball.  But over the 6 to 12 hour period, I punch it down 3 to 4 times max. (probably more closer to 3 times). 

Your description of the dough seems to be very good, i.e. "on the slightly oily side."  If some are concerned about it being too oily, then a little -- but just a little -- of AP bench flour would be fine.  Your description of the molding clay is not bad and may be right on.  I have no experience with a cast iron pan but it should do the job nicely.  As I expressed elsewhere, I am not a fan of hot or overly spicey sausage, but that's a personal like or dislike.  And I, too, on many occasions added bits and pieces of delicious tasting "fresh" mozzarella cheese, but realize it contributes sometimes (often times) to a "wetter" pizza.

The sauce sounds interesting and that can vary widely with people.  I love some Muir Glen and dislike some of their products, too.  Many like some of the Red Gold products of which I have no experience.  The other day I made some pizzas with 6 in 1 crushed and Muir Glen diced and it was super great.  Trial and error here with sauce is all important to match one's likes and dislikes.

The pepperoni method is a good one.  I've recently microwaved the pepperoni for 15 to 20 seconds on a paper towel, then added to the pizza about half way through the cooking period and that turns out well for me.  Good to try different ways here with good pepperoni.

The picture of the dough spread out into the pan looked slightly too oily, but pictures of that can be very deceiving and it probably was just fine.  And your description of it holding up well and not falling down on the edges seems to be right on as to what it should be.  So I would be reluctant to do that differently.

Of course you know, we Chicago Style deep dish enthusiasts are not big at all on the use of shredded cheese for this style pizza.  I will confess, however, that on ocassion (when I've had nothing else in the refrigerator) that I've used such.  But sliced cheese here generally gives better results from a number of vantage points.

Incredibly great pictures and results, tho, and I'll return with some more thoughts later.  Again, nice job and thanks especially for sharing with us so many pictures in the various stages of putting together and making your pizza.  It's close to being almost in your kitchen.

                                                                                    --BTB         :D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: tjkoko on April 23, 2011, 07:53:30 PM
@BTB:

Member Pete-zaa referred me to you for the following question: the pans you use, are they PizzaTools Deep-Dish Stacking Pans with PSTK?

Best,
-T
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 24, 2011, 11:00:03 AM
Member Pete-zaa referred me to you for the following question: the pans you use, are they PizzaTools Deep-Dish Stacking Pans with PSTK?
See answer at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13646.msg136562.html#msg136562
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on May 12, 2011, 07:26:53 PM
BTB, I have to ask you:

How do you manage such beautifully imperfect crusts? Even in the very first post on this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg55567.html#msg55567) the texture and contours of your imperfect ball work their way through the pizza from start to finish... and the edges of your pies always look spectacular.

And even though your formula has changed a bit in the past few years, the perfect-imperfect crust is always there...

Is it, as they say, "all in the wrists?" or do you have some sort of "technique" you use? Being a little OCD, I've had a tendency to always flatten my edges to the same height but I've been attempting the "perfect-imperfect" look in my recent pies. They never quite look like yours...

Enviously,

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 13, 2011, 10:02:44 AM
How do you manage such beautifully imperfect crusts?

Clive, thanks.  I never thought I'd hear my deep dish crust described that way but think what you're saying by the phrase "imperfect crust" is that you like the somewhat jagged, irregular top part of the crust, which I do, too.  Kind of like the moonscape.  It cooks up to a nice crisp, tasty crust edge that I use to often -- but not always -- experience at Pizzeria Due and Lou Malnati's, as well as the original Gino's (prior to Gino's East). It is much better in my estimation than the "fat-lipped" rim that so many copy-cat pizzerias end up with their Chicago Style deep dishes.  Below is a picture from a Malanti's frozen pizza that I cooked up last year that shows a somewhat similar jagged, irregular edge of the crust.  And that's what I like.
 
The hydration that I aim for (just water wise) is 45 to 47%, with a recent preference for the low end of that range, esp. when adding in more softened butter as I've recently been doing (cause there's a little water in the butter).  I always hand mix deep dish dough and most often do minimal mixing, squeezing and kneading with my fingers and hands for 30 to 90 seconds, again with a recent preference for the low end of that range, too.  I most often prefer a one or two dough rise, punch down, and either wait till baking some several hours later or throw into a zip lock bag and refrigerate for use the following day.  If too oily, add a bit of flour, but not too much.  I like a little dry dough with a slight oily feel, if that makes any sense.  And I, like many professional bakers and others, am irrevocably committed to use of ADY only, but I know many think otherwise and imagine other stuff works too (but not for me).

I press out the dough ball on a slightly floured countertop to something approaching the diameter of the pan that I'm using that day (at least the 9" and smaller pan as larger ones take more work in the pan).  Then using a scraper, lifting it up and into the previously oiled or crisco-ed pan, and flattening it out more so into the pan.  Then I press, crimp and tightly pinch the dough against the sides of the deep dish pan and can care less if I have a perfect circle around the pan, but prefer instead that . . . as you said . . . it ends up being an imperfect circle.
 
On rare occasions -- but not too often -- I face the problem of having the dough not set up against the sides of the deep dish pan, but instead fall over (often because of too much oil in the pan or too oily a dough).  When that happens, I first press tightly again and again and wait 15 to 20 minutes to have the dough set up better.  If that doesn't work, I repeat the pinching and crimping and quickly throw it into a real hot oven in an attempt to set the dough against the pan, kind of a quick par bake.  Then afterwards before "dressing" the pizza, press and crimp the edge again.  That's not what they do at the classic pizzerias, of course, but here we're talking a different animal with use of home ovens.
 
Hope I've given you some thoughts and ideas. 
 
                                                                                                     --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on May 14, 2011, 05:52:39 PM
Last night I made a deliberate attempt to NOT make a deliberate attempt... if that makes any sense!  :-D

The result was marginally improved. BTB, you must crimp very tightly! Where as your edge looks like a wall, mine looks like a slanted dike. I probably photographed the wrong slice to illustrate this, but you can still get the idea. I think I had too much dough, despite using a TF of 0.111 - my lowest yet, and one I see you recommended above. I've created some thick monsters in the past, so I've been trying to break that stigma! ;)

Also. I learned the unfortunate way not to grease the pan with butter. Not only is the smoke point too low, but my oven is so wonky that this happened after only 20 minutes at what it tried to convince me was "425" deg F. I've started referring to the beast as "Satan's Furnace" -- that b@stard is always trying to wreck my pies.  >:D

:angel: Get behind my oven, Satan! :angel:

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jcg on May 31, 2011, 07:13:47 PM
Well I am a newbie to the forum/website, but I read this whole thread to try to get up to speed before I make my first DD pizza. I also started a thread on hopefully trying to recreate Zachary's pizza (in Berkeley/Oakland/San Ramon CA), but haven't gotten any replies and I was anxious to make my first pizza so I going with BTB's recipe here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11855.msg110385.html#msg110385

After reading through the thread I decided to buy a scale today as it seems critical to success (I cook a lot but not with doughs). After using it I see why it is key and it was super easy. I have attached a pic of the dough after I kneaded it for ~60 seconds (it's now in the oven at 100 degrees). Hopefully it looks like it should. I wish I had found this forum last week as I ordered a 14" pizza pan thats already been delivered and I went with the shiny aluminum, but would have gotten the dark one had I known (next time). I'll post more pics so if something goes wrong people can help me figure out where the mistake was.

jcg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jcg on June 01, 2011, 10:26:42 AM
OK, a couple more notes to my previous post on my first attempt at dough and a DD pizza. I did change the bowl residue compensation in the dough calculator from 1.5 to .5% as there have been a few posts that said their dough came out a little thick, and since I was using a glass bowl to mix I wiped the final dough ball around and there really wasn't any residue left.

I also realized I made a mistake on the measurements. I calculated the weight for the flours (I used the 20% Bob's Red Mill semolina) plus salt (436.28 grams, 87g semolina/345g AP/). Had all these in a glass bowl that I briefly whisked to incorporate everything. I then melted the butter let it cool, and then added the olive/corn oil so it was all in one small bowl (olive 25g, corn 50g, butter 28g = 103 total). I proofed the ADY in 1.5 teaspoons of sugar and some water and let it sit until it was nice and foamy (about 10 min), and then I added more water to get to a total of 197.62 g. The issue is I forget the sugar weight of 6.48 g that was in the proofing water/ADY mixture. So I only added enough water to get the weight to 197.62 grams vs 204.1 grams. The dough seemed plenty moist enough, so hopefully this won't make a huge difference????

For mixing I added all the oil & water to the flour mixture, then combined with a wooden spoon and then kneaded it with my hands for ~60 seconds. Many posts talk about over kneading the bread (originally I was going to use my KA mixer, but thankfully learned that would have been a mistake), so hopefully I didn't under knead it (maybe someone can tell from the pics). After letting the dough rise for ~3 hours I took this picture (it had doubled in size but probably hard to tell from the picture), then punched it down and put it in a ziplok bag and it's currently in the fridge. I'll take it out 2 hours before making the pizza tonight and post final pics.

jcg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: jcg on June 02, 2011, 11:34:03 AM
Well I'm very happy with my first attempt (wife loved it too!) as the pizza came out great (a few pics below). The minor error I mentioned in the last post on the amount of water (6g is less than 2 teaspoons) didn't seem to have any impact. I did a layer of provolone, fresh spinach, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms (1/8 " setting on mandoline), provolone cheese, fresh spinach, sauted onions, thinly sliced fresh mushrooms, grated mozzarella cheese, and finally the tomato sauce. This is the same layering that Zachary's does in their famous mushroom / spinach stuffed pizza except they don't use onions (but I love them so added that layer). See my other post on trying to recreate Zachary's crust, and hopefully we have some SF Bay Area people on this forum as so far no posts to that thread.

Anyways I was a tad worried that because the spinach / mushrooms were fresh that the pizza might get watery, but it didn't at all. I cooked the 14 " pizza in a 450 degree oven for about 35 min (lost track of exact time cause I just kept checking the crust till it looked right). My oven has a exposed heating element on the bottom, so I put a pizza stone on the lower rack, and then put the pan on top of the pizza stone just to protect against burning when the element turned on. I used 20% semolina and the crust is very good, but it definately has a corn bread type taste. I ate a Lou Malnati's many years ago when I was in Chicago, and just remember I thought it was very good. I think Zachary's just uses AP flour, so next time I'm going to leave out the semolina and see how that works (as I've gotten used to that taste and like it). Also with all the rave reviews about 6 in 1 tomatoes I decided to order some for my next pizzas as Amazon has an amazing price for an 8 pack of 28oz cans for only $16.79 with free shipping (orders of $25+).

If anyone has any thoughts that will improve my next attempt please let me know.

jcg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on June 02, 2011, 02:31:29 PM
jcg,

Enjoyed your posts, great job and it sure is fun when it comes out right...my dough is rising right now...Thanks
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on June 03, 2011, 12:20:06 AM
Great looking results!

I haven't been to Zachary's, so, sorry, I can't help you there. I do know few establishments put their REAL recipe online for all to see... they would lose their competitive edge, no? Corn Meal seems to be the big Deep Dish Canard. It's in almost every recipe you find online, but it's never actually IN authentic deep dish pizzas...

Good one,  ::)

Again, great-looking results. I didn't expect results like that from your pan!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Shwanzee on July 24, 2011, 08:18:59 PM
NOOB here, wanting to post my thanks, and my pics.  i'm a chicagoland transplant who has been in Phoenix for 14 years.  We have some good places here for thin crust, but I have been struggling to find good deep dish.  we did have an Uno's here for a while, but alas the one we had shut down.  SO, in the middle of a major craving for a Lou Malnati's pie, i went to google searching for a dough recipe, which led me here. 

I have never been so impressed with myself after baking something.  My fiancee had never had a deep dish pizza, and was blown away.  I did a 46% hydration wtih 20% semolina, using 24% fats (olive, corn and butter) based on BTB's successes.  I used a 12" cake pan lubed up with a little corn oil, 18 minutes on middle rack, rotated and put on my pizza stone for last 12 mins. 

I had a lot of experience making neopolitan style pizzas at home, but all of my attempts at deep dish were failures because i was using normal pizza dough, not realizing there was such a substantial difference. 

I couldn't believe what i tasted last night out of my own oven!  thank you all so much!

Adam
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Shwanzee on August 04, 2011, 10:14:37 PM
And for what it's worth, for the butter crust, its the exact same crust, except after they form it into the pan, they just brush it with melted butter.  No huge mystery.  Saw a pizza special on the Travel Channel where they were were doing it.  The key to this episode, it wasn't Mark making the pizza on TV, it was one of the normal cooks, so they didn't hide this "secret"
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PaultheThird on August 07, 2011, 11:59:40 PM
Deep Dish Family:
I made my first BTB/Pizzamaking.com etal/ Mulnati clone last night and it was awesome!  The attached pictures don't really do it justice.  Thanks to BTB for doing most of the heavy lifting on not only providing what may be the definitive deep dish dough recipe, but for the detailed, and nearly foolproof (there's always someone who can muck up perfectly good directions::)) instructions on how to prepare and bake.  I also want to thank the others whose posts and responses helped guide a novice baker.  Clive's concerns about his oven made me curious about mine.  Thanks to Clive, I put a digital thermometer I use for BBQ in the oven and learned my oven temp can run as much as 50 degrees hotter than the displayed temp. 

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PaultheThird on August 08, 2011, 12:13:06 AM
Now the initial excitement has worn off and I am ready to begin the process of "tweaking" the recipe to strive toward perfection.

The first iteration did not have nearly enough cheese and I may have been a bit heavy-handed on the sauce.  Easy fixes.  My question for BTB and the forum is on making changes to the dough.  I would like to get a bit more flavor out of the crust and I think the answer is adding a bit more salt.  Bit, I realize is a poor qualitative term, but its the best I can do until I learn the lexicon of baking.  As I am new to baking, I am curious how changing the salt content will affect the finished product.  I used BTB's percentages from page 23 of this thread (salt 1%).  Question: In what increments should I add salt?(e.g. try adding .25 or .5 grams or increasing salt % to 1.5%) Will someone please make a suggestion? My digital scale does not measure in tenths of a gram so its going back.  I had to guesstimate so that may have caused me to use slightly less salt than required.  Can someone suggest a decent digital scale no more than $50 that measures in .1 gram increments? Finally,  if I change the salt content, will it require I change other components?

Thanks again to all for making my first outing so successful! Looking forward to many more!
 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on August 20, 2011, 09:53:49 AM
. . . for what it's worth, for the butter crust, its the exact same crust, except after they form it into the pan, they just brush it with melted butter. 
I've long indicated this fact on this website in numerous threads that Malnati's "buttercrust" is first an optional type of crust (not their standard type) and that it is melted and just brushed on when the option is requested.  Having said that, my experience has been that the brushing of melted butter just doesn't do it for me and others that I know of and I've long advocated putting some melted or softened (preferred) butter into the crust formulation itself.  The crust then is much tastier in my estimation, but one's experience with this is what's all important.

I made my first BTB/Pizzamaking.com etal/ Malnati clone last night and it was awesome!  The attached pictures don't really do it justice.  Thanks to BTB for doing most of the heavy lifting on not only providing what may be the definitive deep dish dough recipe, but for the detailed, and nearly foolproof instructions on how to prepare and bake.
Great job, P3, and thanks for the great photos that give so much life to what you're doing and accomplishing.  While I use a scale in general, for the small measurements, I just use teaspoons and tablespoons and fractions thereof (and estimates for unusual fractions) instead of the scale.  Many of the Chicago Style Deep Dish pizzerias use little to no salt and my last time at Malnati's (just last week) seemed to show that they don't, but I do prefer it and add some on my pizzas at the restaurant and add such to the crust formulations that I make at home.  I just prefer some salt (around .5 to 1.5%), but one must experiment with the proportion to see what's good for them. 

It's hard -- for me at least -- to answer "how changing the salt content will affect the finished product."  To me it is preferable and I don't think it affects the crust qualitatively, but try one small pizza with and one without to determine for oneself.  If the formulation calls for a quarter of a tsp, try 1/2 etc.  I often add small measured additions to the formulation even where it is not in the original formulation without changing the other components, but I make note of it on my printouts of the formulations that I used and keep in my Pizzamaking file.  Continue your great work and look forward to seeing your future reporting on it. 

                                                                                             --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: musthavepizza on October 04, 2011, 03:12:52 AM
Hey PizzaMaking Folks and BTB...

I have not been on here in a while but wanted to let you all know that after years of research (on this site), pizza expos, testing, tweaking, reading, baking and passion, I have actually opened my own pizza place in Los Angeles!  (It's actually in Manhattan Beach).  I partnered with a person I have known who had a small pizza place with a great N.Y. pizza.  But what I did was introduce my deep dish pizza.  Something sorely missing from Los Angeles.  It is called Union Pizza Company.  I wanted to let you all know because I am powered by passion.  Just like all you folks on this website.  My passion for pizza led me to open a place I had been talking about doing for years.  My wife was about to kill me if I wouldnt stop talking about it!  And I am happy to report that we have been serving my deep dish for about 4 weeks now and getting rave reviews.  I am amazed at how many people are from Chicago who (like me) bemoaned the fact that there was not a decent deep dish pie in Los Angeles.  Well now there is!  And there are plenty of folks from all over who seem to love this pie. 

I am using a modified BTB recipe for the crust,  with a nice chunky sauce made from a blend of diced, paste and 6 in 1.  I use a blend of 5 , yes 5 cheeses.  I pre cook and season all my toppings so there is no water in them.  Result... a nice crispy perfect crust.  No soggy bottom.  Loads of flavor.  Baking in a bakers pride deck oven at 475 degrees for 20 minutes in custom built cheescake pans from Lloyds with the no stick anodized metal.  Perfect bake. 

It took a while to do lots of test bakes and free samples while I massaged the recipe and trained the cooks how to make a pie that I have been laboring over for a few years.  They think I'm nuts when I bought a big ass digital scale and made them perfectly weigh out the ingredients.  They look at me funny when I obsess over how they make the dough, press out the dough, make the sauce, etc...  But then again I'm a pizza nut and want it perfect.  And I think my customers can appreciate it in what they get. 

I have had a family come in 4 times already and tell me they are addicted to my deep dish.  Pretty cool.  It's even on the back of my cards because I knew this was a great pie and a ton of people never have had anything like it, and those that did will now be able to get the fix they have been craving.  Had a guy come in and say he had been shipping pies in from Lou Malnati's but not any more.  Now this may seem like I'm bragging.  I am but Im not.  Im just happy that what I was pretty sure would happen , is indeed happening.

Now the bad news is that my deep dish pizza costs me a lot to make because of the quality (and quantity) of the ingredients I am using.  So I'm not making money yet, but hopefully, word of mouth keeps us growing.  Even in the last couple of weeks business is up, so I hope it keeps going.

For all those of you out there that may want to do this too, I will say it is very hard and expensive.  And there are no guarantees it will work.  There are many forces working against starting a new business.  But I do have that passion so I feel lucky to be able to share it and make others tastebuds happy.

If you are ever in Los Angeles and want to stop by, please do and say you heard about us from the Pizzamaking website.  If I'm there you get the royal tour and I'm sure a great meal.  And our NY pie is pretty great too as our other owner is from Brooklyn and he is as crazy about good pizza as I am.  Go figure...

And for those who say man can not live by pizza alone, I for one can say this aint so.  You can...

My best to all pizza (and especially deep dish) fans on this site.
 ;D
Bruce

Union Pizza Company
1570 Rosecrans Ave.
Manhattan Beach, CA. 90266
310-536-9888
www.unionpizzacompany.com
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on October 04, 2011, 12:13:02 PM
Hey PizzaMaking Folks and BTB...

I have not been on here in a while but wanted to let you all know that after years of research (on this site), pizza expos, testing, tweaking, reading, baking and passion, I have actually opened my own pizza place in Los Angeles!  (It's actually in Manhattan Beach).  I partnered with a person I have known who had a small pizza place with a great N.Y. pizza.  But what I did was introduce my deep dish pizza.  Something sorely missing from Los Angeles.  It is called Union Pizza Company.  I wanted to let you all know because I am powered by passion.  Just like all you folks on this website.  My passion for pizza led me to open a place I had been talking about doing for years.  My wife was about to kill me if I wouldnt stop talking about it!  And I am happy to report that we have been serving my deep dish for about 4 weeks now and getting rave reviews.  I am amazed at how many people are from Chicago who (like me) bemoaned the fact that there was not a decent deep dish pie in Los Angeles.  Well now there is!  And there are plenty of folks from all over who seem to love this pie. 

I am using a modified BTB recipe for the crust,  with a nice chunky sauce made from a blend of diced, paste and 6 in 1.  I use a blend of 5 , yes 5 cheeses.  I pre cook and season all my toppings so there is no water in them.  Result... a nice crispy perfect crust.  No soggy bottom.  Loads of flavor.  Baking in a bakers pride deck oven at 475 degrees for 20 minutes in custom built cheescake pans from Lloyds with the no stick anodized metal.  Perfect bake. 

It took a while to do lots of test bakes and free samples while I massaged the recipe and trained the cooks how to make a pie that I have been laboring over for a few years.  They think I'm nuts when I bought a big ass digital scale and made them perfectly weigh out the ingredients.  They look at me funny when I obsess over how they make the dough, press out the dough, make the sauce, etc...  But then again I'm a pizza nut and want it perfect.  And I think my customers can appreciate it in what they get. 

I have had a family come in 4 times already and tell me they are addicted to my deep dish.  Pretty cool.  It's even on the back of my cards because I knew this was a great pie and a ton of people never have had anything like it, and those that did will now be able to get the fix they have been craving.  Had a guy come in and say he had been shipping pies in from Lou Malnati's but not any more.  Now this may seem like I'm bragging.  I am but Im not.  Im just happy that what I was pretty sure would happen , is indeed happening.

Now the bad news is that my deep dish pizza costs me a lot to make because of the quality (and quantity) of the ingredients I am using.  So I'm not making money yet, but hopefully, word of mouth keeps us growing.  Even in the last couple of weeks business is up, so I hope it keeps going.

For all those of you out there that may want to do this too, I will say it is very hard and expensive.  And there are no guarantees it will work.  There are many forces working against starting a new business.  But I do have that passion so I feel lucky to be able to share it and make others tastebuds happy.

If you are ever in Los Angeles and want to stop by, please do and say you heard about us from the Pizzamaking website.  If I'm there you get the royal tour and I'm sure a great meal.  And our NY pie is pretty great too as our other owner is from Brooklyn and he is as crazy about good pizza as I am.  Go figure...

And for those who say man can not live by pizza alone, I for one can say this aint so.  You can...

My best to all pizza (and especially deep dish) fans on this site.
 ;D
Bruce

Union Pizza Company
1570 Rosecrans Ave.
Manhattan Beach, CA. 90266
310-536-9888
www.unionpizzacompany.com


Happy to see that you're making a go of it and having some success!  :chef:
I'm pretty jealous, as I hope to someday do what you're doing, if I only had the $$$$$  to get a restaurant going.

We might be able to help you figure out how to cut some costs without affecting your final product.
There might just be some ingredients that you are using now that you might be able to omit or subtitute to get an acceptable result.
or there could be brands of flour/cheese/tomatoes that could be a more affordable option and taste just as good.

i.e. - I'm in Chicago and had abandoned semolina altogether because I couldn't find an affordable source for it, so it didn't make sense to me that the restaurants would have used it back in the 40's, so now I use Ceresota All-Purpose Flour with great results. I'm discovering that if you check the labels of certain store brands, you will notice that some of them match Ceresota's numbers for carb/protein/sugar/fiber .

You're fortunate to be in California, where some of the best canned tomatoes can be gotten.

Please let us know what brands you're currently using. Maybe someone on this forum can help you lower your costs.

All the luck in the world to you. You make us proud.  :pizza: :) :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 04, 2011, 05:44:58 PM
Great, great looking pizzas and I hope you do terrifically well, Bruce.  It's been a while since I've been to the "nutty" state of California, but I've traveled throughout the state for many years in the past when active in business there.  (My apology for the "nutty" characterization.)   I think good Chicago Style Deep Dish Pizza should do very well there, given that it's a big difference with traditional "California Style" (which "style" is a mish-mash IMO) and the many, many Neapolitan pizzas that are becoming so "common place" these days.
 
Over a decade ago when I first started making pizzas at home, I used this new thing called the "Internet" and came across a recipe for Malnati's deep dish pizza.  It contained a small amount of semolina and the author claimed it was the best.  With many hard drive crashes over the years, I lost track of the link, BUT that's what made me explore -- along with the other great recipes herein -- to make the best deep dish pizza possible.  In my many, many trials and errors, my pizza tasters overwhelmingly prefer those trials WITH semolina as opposed to without.  But I admit, I do like it both ways, with a little preference with semolina included in the formulation.  I disagree with my good pizzamaking friend, Ed, in this regard, but admire his great pizzamaking abilities (check out his fantastic site).
 
In the Tampa area where I generally reside now, Chicago Style Deep Dish pizza is nowhere near as commonplace as all the NY/NJ pizzerias that reflect the majority of the northern snow-birds here.  And while we have those silly media "polls" like exists in most metropolitan areas as to who's best, . . . the No. 1 rated pizzeria among them all has for a good number of years been "Cappy's."  And guess what?  They include a substantial amount of semolina in their deep dish crust.  And guess further what?  They are a pizzeria famous for two styles of pizza . . . Chicago Style Deep Dish and New York Thin Crust (now where did I hear of that before?  Oh at the great new Union Pizza Company in Manhattan, CA (www.unionpizzacompany.com)).  Hope someday I can make it out west to try some of your great tasting pizzas and encourage all to get out to Manhattan, CA and have some great pizza.  Best of luck.

                                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2011, 06:24:06 PM
BTB,

It looks like there are now two people who are using a version of your semolina-based deep-dish dough recipe commercially. The other is Patrick Cuezze: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10310.msg91366.html#msg91366.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on October 11, 2011, 04:11:38 PM
I live in Chicago and totally love Lous so I finally tried BTBs recipe on #365.  This was my second attempt as my first attempt was with 35% semolina.

For my 2nd try I went with only 20% Semolina, and boy was this crust fantastic.  Gonna try 25% semolina next.  Still trying to work the ins and outs for the cheese but I used 6-1 and Glen Muir stewed tomates on top and it was just fine.








Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on October 12, 2011, 11:08:36 AM
Very nicely done pythonic.  Great quality pics!  Looks delish!

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on October 12, 2011, 10:38:47 PM
Thanks Loo.  I try my best.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on October 13, 2011, 01:31:33 AM
Here's the rest of the pics.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mrmojo1 on October 14, 2011, 07:15:11 PM
now have your friends over and make some cash!  tell em you ordered 4 lous and they need to chip in!!! just kidding!!  really looks fantastic!!!  nice job!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 16, 2011, 11:22:11 AM
Very impressive, pythonic. Love your pictures. I'm especially impressed on how well you "pinched" and "crimped" the rim of the pizza instead of the fat cornice or rim that others often attribute (albeit wrongfully) to typical Chicago Style deep dish pizza.
 
I, too, love Lou Malnati's pizzas and the original one there on Lincoln Ave. in Lincolnwood, IL was my luncheon -- and often-times dinner -- home for a dozen or two years or more.  I don't know what it is about original restaurants, but the spin off of successful businesses like this often don't match the taste and quality of the original.  One exception with the Malnati's group is the Elk Grove Village location on Old Higgins Rd near the airport.  They are the oldest of the expansion group and just about as great as the Lincolnwood original restaurant.
 
While I tend to like the 20% semolina blend in my formulation (and often with a tiny bit of rice flour), my taste testers vary on loving the pizza crust with varying proportions of semolina -- some liking 40% and others 15%.  But none prefer those crusts that I occasionally make without any semolina.  So its a personal preference and its good to try out various mixtures and see what you and yours like the best.
 
Your pictures show an absolutely delicious-looking and mouthwatering deep dish pizza that should be quickly gobbled up by all pizza lovers.  Now that summer is over, I'll be back soon making some more pizzas, too, and while I most often have recently used the Lou Malnati's canned tomatoes, next to them I love and prefer the 6 in 1s with some "diced" Glen Muir tomatoes added.  I noticed that you used Glen Muir's stewed tomatoes and find that interesting.  I might have to try that some time.  But the diced tomatoes when baked on a deep dish pizza most often to me taste just like -- or close to -- the tomatoes that one gets on a deep dish pizza at Malnati's Lincolnwood restaurant.  Let us know more -- after your further trials -- on how you find the stewed tomatoes to match up with Lou's original. 
 
                                                                                                --BTB

P.S.  This looks as good as any pizza that I had at Lou's.  Keep up the great pizzamaking.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on October 18, 2011, 02:15:40 PM
BTB,

Thank you for your kind comments.  Coming from you, "The Malnatis King" it means a lot.   I recently made the jump from NY Style pizza to deep dish and this thread was the first one I noticed.

How much is it for a can of the Malnatis Tomatoes?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on October 18, 2011, 06:17:18 PM
BTB,

How much is it for a can of the Malnatis Tomatoes?

Last time I bought them, they were about $3 per 28 oz can.

There's a thread about those tomatoes here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10837.msg118591.html#msg118591 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10837.msg118591.html#msg118591)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on October 22, 2011, 12:46:09 AM
I was going to try the America's Test Kitchen Chicago-style recipe tomorrow for dinner but found this thread and decided I'd do this one first.  The dough is in my fridge now.

I'm curious -- on the ATK show the guy from the Chicago pizzeria (don't recall which one) spread raw sausage over the cheese on the bottom of the pan, and I was wondering (A) how to be sure it gets cooked thoroughly and (B) if doing it that way rather than pre-cooking it results in a lot of grease in the pizza.  Normally when I make a pizza with sausage, I cook it first and drain it, then put it on the pizza and bake it.  I do have a heat sink I use when I bake my deep-dish pizzas, but was wondering if others on this forum use the raw sausage technique, and if there is anything special I need to do if I do it this way.

When I make sauce for my deep-dish pizzas, I start with a 28-ounce can of Hunt's crushed tomatoes, pour that into a wire sieve and drain it for at least 2 hours, then mix in about a teaspoon of salt, some oregano, a can of Contadina tomato paste with roasted garlic and a can of tomato paste with Italian Herbs.  The sauce ends up nice and thick, and doesn't make the crust soggy.

Can't wait to try this crust!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 22, 2011, 08:32:54 AM
In many places on these threads it is frequently mentioned that about 98% of Chicago and midwest area pizzerias (non-chain) put Italian sausage (which is the NUMBER ONE pizza ingredient in the Chicago/midwest area) . . . put the Italian sausage on the prepped pizza UNCOOKED.  That is because it will taste much, much better that way (who likes burnt, dried out sausage?).  An exception may be a cheap, fatty sausage that can cause some amount of grease -- but such pizzerias would be put out of business in a short time.

Another exception to this are the new, in-vogue "Neapolitan" or artisan pizzerias in the Chicago area.  Their sausage often comes either par or fully cooked -- the reason being that such style pizzas spend just a few "minutes" in a real hot oven as opposed to either traditional Chicago Style deep dish or thin pizzas that spend considerably more time in the oven at lower temperatures usually from 425 to 500 degrees F. But a lot of Neapolitan pizzas put uncooked sausage on in "thin slices" so it will cook in a very short time.  But remember, with Chicago/midwest area pizzas, the sausage is put on in real clumps and larger pieces and not the little "droppings" that look like breakfast sausage (and other things).  Ten to 15 minutes at midwest pizza oven temperatures is all that is needed to cook (and not over cook) Italian sausage.

I recommend draining crushed tomatoes for a lesser amount of time, like 10 to 20 minutes, and put a very small amount of spices and additives to the sauce.  I've changed 180 degrees from putting a lot of additives to little or none.  And the result was superior -- but that may be just me and mine.  And I don't wish to stir any controversy over canned tomato brands, but Hunts and Contadina would make the bottom on many peoples' lists.  Good luck and I hope your pizza turns out great.  Take pictures and let us know.

                                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on October 22, 2011, 12:07:18 PM
See answer at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13646.msg136562.html#msg136562

So you don't use the "nesting" pans? They seem to be more straight sided then the stacking ones. I like the source though they are rather affordable for what look like quality pans.



Edit: Actually nevermind, they seem to have more of a taper then the stackers. Some of them are up to 1" smaller on the bottom then the top.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on October 22, 2011, 12:27:54 PM
Thanks for the reply, BTB -- I'll take a shot at spreading the sausage in a layer on top of the cheese like the guy did on the ATK episode.  You're right -- these things cook a lot longer, and I do use good sausage and a heat sink.  Probably a little overly concerned about cooking pork thoroughly from my mom's rantings when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on October 22, 2011, 09:23:18 PM
Is it like a sin to use anything other then the chunky sauce? I'm not a huge fan of big chunks of tomato haha.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on October 22, 2011, 09:55:30 PM
Made my pizza tonight with this crust and I have to say, it came out AWESOME.  No corn meal, and sure enough, it has the "mouth feel" that I was looking for with that nice texture and taste.  Made it with some Usinger's Italian sausage, mushrooms, onion, black olive slices and some pepperoni on top.  The sausage cooked perfectly and tastes great -- I had always pre-cooked it, this saves me from having to clean another pan!  This is my new standard Chicago-style crust -- I love it!

I'm attaching some photos of the finished product.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 23, 2011, 06:58:58 AM
Made my pizza tonight with this crust and I have to say, it came out AWESOME.  No corn meal, and sure enough, it has the "mouth feel" that I was looking for with that nice texture and taste . . .
Very nice job, Klankster.  It will only become better and better as you get more experience with this style pizza.  That's a different kind of "pan" that you used, but it seemed to have done a very nice job.  Thanks for the pictures, too, as it gives us all a good feel and view of the great job that you did.

Is it like a sin to use anything other then the chunky sauce? I'm not a huge fan of big chunks of tomato, haha.
Wow, you sound like me a large number of years ago.  I hated chunky type tomato sauce on Chicago Style Deep Dish pizzas.  And now I've acquired such a taste for it on deep dish, that I don't want any without it.  No, it's not a sin to do otherwise, but maybe you can work your way up to it.

Try some Escalon 6 in 1 tomatoes.  It has very fine crushed tomatoes and you won't even notice it.  Then afterwards try adding some small diced tomatoes along with the 6 in 1's.  I'm betting that you may then become a believer.  But I know that there are some people who don't like chunky sauce and I was one of them in the past (and still am on some pastas).

                                                                                                --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on October 23, 2011, 09:14:23 AM
Yeah I'm just not a fan of straight tomatoes really. The chunky kinds usually taste more like pure tomatoes.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on October 23, 2011, 01:38:17 PM
Very nice job, Klankster.  It will only become better and better as you get more experience with this style pizza.  That's a different kind of "pan" that you used, but it seemed to have done a very nice job.  Thanks for the pictures, too, as it gives us all a good feel and view of the great job that you did.
Thanks!  That's a 10" stoneware pan my wife got me a while back -- It gives excellent results, nice even browning.  I have a similar one with a shallower angle on the sides that I use for deep-dish pies (making an apple pie from my Red Rome Beauty tree as I write this).  They're heavier than metal pans but I do like the results.

The chunky tomatoes discussion is interesting -- I'll try some of your recommended tomatoes next time (and as much as I like this crust, that won't be long!)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 25, 2011, 08:52:47 AM
I made a couple of 9" diameter Chicago Style deep dish pizzas in the last few days.  After hand mixing the dough together for about 15 to 20 seconds (trying to mix as brief as possible), I put each in a covered bowl and let rise in a slightly warmed oven for about 90 minutes.  They both rose nicely.  Then I put each dough ball into zip lock bags and into the refrigerator where they stayed for 3 days.  Taking out about 2 hours prior to preparation for baking, I used two different styles of pans, placed the flattened dough balls in each, and squeezed the dough tightly at least 1.5" up the sides of the pans.  The water hydration was 45% (it gets to be a tad more with the added butter) and the TF was .125 with a 1.5% bowl residue.  With this information, it would be super simple to convert this recipe to a 12", 14" or any size pizza with the use of the Deep-Dish Dough Calculation Tool on this website for any wishing to do so.
 
The formulation for both pizzas was as follows, each differing only in the flour blend.
 
Flour Blend (100%):  206.59 g  |  7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%):  92.96 g  |  3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.8%):  1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  24.79 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.51 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Total (172.3%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
The flour blend in the first pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g) and 20% semolina (41.4 g).  The flour blend in the second pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g), 12% semolina (24.8 g), and 8% rice flour (16.5 g).  The butter in each was added at the last moment in the mixing cycle and was very soft, but not melted.  ADY was a little more than the .6% that I normally use. And each pan had roughly a Tbsp of OO in each.
 
I used about 4 oz. of skim mozzarella and 4 oz. of whole milk mozzarella (slices) in each pizza.  I added uncooked Italian sausage (w. fennel) on top of the cheese, then added the Malnati's tomatoes on top of that (about 14 oz. ea.), and then the grated parmesan/romano and oregano on top of that.  I cooked the pizzas on my bottom rack at around 430 degrees F for approx. 30 to 35 minutes.
 
Both pizzas were outstanding and delicious with every morsel being consumed.  The first pizza (80/20) was a little softer even tho I cooked it about 5 minutes longer than the second pizza.  We think the difference was in the use of a Bakers Air-Bake pan that may not crisp up as well as the regular style Chicago Metallic pan that was used with the second pizza.  Shows the difference with use of different pans.  The second pizza (80/12/8) was nice and tasty, too, and a good deal crispier than the first.  Besides the difference in the pan, the second pizza also had the small amount of rice flour incorporated into the flour blend, which is our slight favorite.
 
Also, I used a new brand of semolina, Bellino, that I found at one of my favorite Italian deli's.
 
                                                                                          --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on October 25, 2011, 08:55:33 AM
Here are some more pictures showing various stages of the pizzamaking process . . .
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mick.Chicago on October 26, 2011, 04:51:18 PM
Yum! 


Interesting Semolina!

I still use Zyad brand, for pizza and making pasta, it's really good.

This one.  It's 1.99 a packet where I get it.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001SB2Z30/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001SB2Z30/?tag=pizzamaking-20)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mrmackin on November 06, 2011, 07:37:32 PM
Hello pizza people, this is my first try at making a DD pizza :pizza: wish me luck! :-[
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jasonk on November 06, 2011, 10:22:15 PM
After hand mixing the dough together for about 15 to 20 seconds (trying to mix as brief as possible)

BTB, as you might have noticed in another post, I'm currently at a 50% hydration level and 10% oil, yet it can take me up to several minutes to get a decent enough mix to where I don't have loose flour in the bowl...though I am usually closer to 1 and 2 kg batches admittedly.  How is it that you get a thorough enough mix so quickly?  Even on smaller size experiments of about 500 g total it can take me up to 2-3 minutes...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 08, 2011, 02:43:33 PM
Well I have found most of the ingredients I need to attempt this deep dish. I found Semolina locally, they had some of the vacuum packed stuff like that, but the store also had some in their own containers that it looked like the deli did up. I got one of the stores variety and also one of the vacuum packed so I can see if there is any difference.

I did find the 6 in 1 ground tomatoes so that was nice. Hopefully this weekend I can pick up a digital scale and then I'm also going to make some home made sausage and at that point I'll hopefully be starting on my first Chicago Deep Dish.

What do you guys usually do for the sauces based on the 6 in 1? I do like a sweeter sauce normally.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2011, 12:32:40 PM
. . . What do you guys usually do for the sauces based on the 6 in 1? I do like a sweeter sauce normally.
Hdale85, looking forward to hearing about the results of your pizzamaking efforts here.  A scale would be a good investment if you want to get serious into pizzamaking.  

6 in 1's are among the best for use here.  Even tho I've come to add some small diced tomatoes along with the 6 in 1's, I've long made Chicago Style deep dish pizzas with just 6 in 1's and they were great.  Suggest you drain the amount that you may use for 10 to 15 minutes, but not too long as they then get too dry.  You are ambitious with the thought of homemade sausage and that may be a really good thing.  But I've haven't gone that far yet.  Suggest a lot of garlic as Malnati's has such in their sausage and many of the Chicago style deep dish pizzerias, like Malnati's, surprisingly does not contain fennel seed in their pizza sausage.  But that's a matter of personal taste.

I've come around almost 180 degrees on additions to the drained 6 in 1 sauce.  I used to put in a dozen additives and spices, but now lean in favor of a more "purist" approach (meaning little to none).  I no longer like Penzy's or other brand's pizza spices.  At the final "dressing" of the pizza, after some grated parmesan or romano, I pinch on oregano and maybe a little crushed basil. To the draining 6 in 1's, I sometimes put in a pinch or two of garlic/onion powder, or some minced garlic, a bit of salt and white pepper, a couple of pinches of white or light brown sugar, or a dash or two of honey.  But that's about it, if I do that much.

And when I say "pinches," "bits" and "dashes" (which I know some of my pizzamaking friends hate), I am intentionally trying to suggest small amounts.  I've know of too many pizzamakers who voiced displeasure in the results of adding large amounts of teaspoons and tablespoons of additives into the tomato sauce.  Best to start out low and adjust upwards the next time rather than facing a "ruined" pizza.  FWIW, which may be nothing.

Good luck and hope things go well.

                                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2011, 04:31:57 PM
BTB, as you might have noticed in another post, I'm currently at a 50% hydration level and 10% oil, yet it can take me up to several minutes to get a decent enough mix to where I don't have loose flour in the bowl...though I am usually closer to 1 and 2 kg batches admittedly.  How is it that you get a thorough enough mix so quickly?  Even on smaller size experiments of about 500 g total it can take me up to 2-3 minutes...
JasonK, I think your hydration is definitely "in the ballpark" for Chicago Style deep dish, even tho I normally do slightly less (45 to 47%).  And the oil, too, is "in the ballpark", but on the low end of many of the classics.  I would guess Giordano's, tho, to be around 10% plus.  But I think sometimes we put a bit too much oil into the home recipes.

I don't ever make as big a batch as I'm envisioning that you do.  While I use the mixer/processor for some style pizzas, I always hand mix Chicago Style pizzas in small batches (because I do each pizza a little different usually as an experiment), but I found that a shorter mix in the bowl results in a much, much better crust -- at least for me.  So I now do "minimal" mixing.  I don't know what to say, but I rarely come across a situation where the mixture isn't "thorough enough."  And there's little to no loose flour left in the bowl.  I wonder if that isn't because of additional oil that I normally use.

If you're using a big mixer and a lot of flour, then 2 - 3 minutes isn't bad.  You may want to try doing slightly less, but it may be fine as is.  Good luck.

                                                                                                      --BTB

P.S.  I just noticed some of your earlier postings.  Chicago Style deep dish usually involves use of AP flour, not the high gluten flour or 00 that you indicated using.  That could substantially change the mixing time variable.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 09, 2011, 04:37:45 PM
Thanks BTB, I generally don't like the plain tomato flavor on a pizza, nor does my wife the few times we've had it that way. But I'll have to play a bit with it I suppose. I was thinking some basil and a bit of sugar to sweeten it just a little. We both love garlic so definitely don't have a problem putting lots of garlic in the sausage! I don't like fennel much either so not a problem leaving that out. Some pizza place around here we go to a lot seems to sprinkle fennel over their pizza and I hate it. That's the stuff that sort of has a black licorice flavor right?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 09, 2011, 04:56:37 PM
Some pizza place around here we go to a lot seems to sprinkle fennel over their pizza and I hate it. That's the stuff that sort of has a black licorice flavor right?
No, that's Anise, which is the second most popular spice in Italian sausage. But one never gets, I don't think, both Fennel seed and Anise seeds together.  I love Anise spices, but too many pizzerias or pizzamakers put waaaaay too much of it on or in the pizza sauce.  It's a specialty thing, but in my book it's best for some styles of thin crust pizza, not deep dish. I also love fennel seed, but not in deep dish and not in excess on Chicago thin crust pizzas either.  But I love both on the right pizza.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 09, 2011, 05:33:10 PM
Hmm well then I'm not sure what fennel tastes like by it self. I'm sure I've had it before though.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 10, 2011, 01:16:18 PM
It's been a few months, but I'm back. Hello everyone once again.

@Hdale85 -- Everyone has their sauce preferences, and I take mine a very different direction from BTB.

My tomato preferences are the Muir Glen CRUSHED tomatoes (28oz) because they are readily available to me in-store (usually in the organic foods aisle). Then I'll use a petite-dice (14oz) of either Del Monte or Red Gold, depending on what's available and what's on sale. I never _EVER_ use Hunts, and I don't even consider myself a tomato snob like of some of the people on these forums.  ;D

For me, the add-ins are important. You mentioned you like a sweeter sauce. I do too. I add maybe 2 - 3 tablespoons of honey to the above tomatoes (which I drained for a few minutes previously). I'll put in roughly a tablespoon of "Italian Seasoning," whatever brand I have in the cupboard. I generally dislike pure oregano (sorry BTB ;) ) which is why I go with the store-bought blends. If I have fresh basil on hand, I will typically add some... (I _love_ me that fresh basil!) Occasionally, I'll add some garlic, FINELY minced because I don't like large chunks. Lastly, since it is a sweet sauce, I add a substantial amount of salt to balance it out... maybe 1 - 2 teaspoons. I never measure any of the ingredients; I just add to-taste. That's what I recommend you do, but ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION. You can always add more honey, seasonings and salt later.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 10, 2011, 04:06:44 PM
Do you use honey because it's a healthier alternative to cane sugar? Or is it a flavor thing?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 10, 2011, 04:26:39 PM
I know this is probably in the thread somewhere, but I need a recipe for a 10" pie with 20% semolina.

Also how long do you guys generally let the dough rise for? I am using ADY yeast and will be cold rising. Is there a guide on here the order of which you generally add ingredients and what not? Or do you just throw it all in the bowl and mix then knead.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 10, 2011, 07:00:45 PM
I  think it's a flavor thing. Matches the acidic tomatoes better.

I'm on my iPhone, so I can't help you with a dough formulation, but look on page 25 for BTB's most recent ingredient grid. Input those numbers in the Deep Dish calculator (a link to the tool can be found on the main page). You'll have options for you pan diameter and edge height. I think he used a tf (thickness) of .125 and a bowl residue of 1.5% or so. It's better to err on the side of caution and make a little too much dough. Just keep in mind, you don't have to use every morsel. Those are often my worst crusts... Too thick. Get used to making your bottom crust a little thinner than you might think.

*As for the dough prep, the first thing I do is start proofing the yeast in warm water. In the meantime, I'll measure out the dry ingredients. (Remember, the you'll have to manually calculate the 80% AP flour and 20% Semolina.) Once the yeast has proofed for about 10 minutes, I add the oil (and, typically, butter, but this time, I'm going to try it last, like BTB suggested). First add a little of the flour mixture, just to get a batter started. Then add the rest of the dry goods into the wet and mix until _just_ combined. Well, that's my preference, but the more you work the dough, the tougher it will be. For some pizzas, you want that, but not Chicago Deep. IMHO.

I let it rise in a warm oven under some celophane (directly on the dough) so it doesn't dry out. Some people never seem to have that problem... Their ovens aren't as whack as mine. I'll let it go for an hour or two. Then I punch it down and put it in a plastic Zip-Lock overnight.

Remove from the fridge a couple hours before making the pizza. Cold dough doesn't cook well.

Good luck, take some pictures, and ENJOY!

*-Others with more experience than I will probably have better instructions, but I've made _decent_ deep dish using this method.

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 10, 2011, 07:22:57 PM
Thanks probably enough to get me started.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 10, 2011, 08:41:33 PM
NOTE: dough in the plastic ziplock goes in the FRIDGE. whoops.  :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 10, 2011, 08:47:33 PM
Yeah I figured as much haha! How long can you keep the dough in the fridge? Is it good for a few days? Or should I use it the next day?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 10, 2011, 09:08:13 PM
I usually don't let mine go for more than a couple days. BTB mentioned recently he let his go for three... There are some people who like to do lonnnnnnnnnng rises. In my humble opinion, the yeast flavor starts to take over after a two-day fridge-rise. But some people like that.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 11, 2011, 08:51:29 AM
I think the sugar vs. honey is just a personal preference thing.  Try one and see if that is really good, if not, next time try the other.
 
. . . how long do you guys generally let the dough rise for? I am using ADY yeast and will be cold rising. Is there a guide on here the order of which you generally add ingredients and what not? Or do you just throw it all in the bowl and mix then knead.
There's a lot of good difference of opinion here and no one is wrong or right.  Depends on how one likes the results.  
 
While I'm intrigue about starting the process with the wet ingredients, I however put all the dry ingredients together in a bowl (after measuring out the weight of the major component -- i.e., AP flour) and mix together by hand (all the while I'm waiting about 10 minutes for my ADY in a small amount of slightly warmed water to foam up).  I then add the rest of the cool water and the ADY mixture (previously mixed in a small amount of that water), mix everything very briefly, then add the oils, then if I'm using it, the softened butter.  The last addition I do after the very last moment of a mixing of 20 to 40 seconds so that the softened butter does not get fully "incorporated" into the mixture.
 
Hereafter I follow one of two paths.  (1) Most common path is to let the dough rise in a very slightly warmed oven (90 degrees F approx.) for roughly an hour, then punched down, then into a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator for a day or two -- or do several more rises and use it the same day.  Or (2) After putting the mixture together and not waiting for a rise, I'll throw the dough ball into a zip lock bag and into a refrigerator for a day or two. One advantage of this latter approach if you are using softened butter is that the butter will remain much less incorporated in the mixture (which will be a good thing) than if it were allowed to soak into the dough during a warmed oven rise.  Always take out refrigerated dough for about 90 to 120 minutes before using.  As Clive indicated, cold dough makes for a not-so-good crust for deep dish pizza.
 
Using the Deep-Dish Dough Calculation Tool on this website, it took me less than 60 seconds to convert a formulation for a 9" diameter to a 10" diameter pizza.  And the recipe for the 10" is:
 
Flour Blend*(100%):  245.94 g  |  8.68 oz | 0.54 lbs
Water (45%):  110.67 g  |  3.9 oz | 0.24 lbs
ADY (.8%):  1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  14.76 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.28 tsp | 1.09 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  29.51 g | 1.04 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.56 tsp | 2.19 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  14.76 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Total (172.3%): 423.75 g | 14.95 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
*The flour blend consists of 80% KAAP (approx. 197 g) and 20% semolina (49 g).  The proportions here can easily be increased or decreased depending upon one's personal likes and dislikes.
 
I think that the butter is best added at the last moment in the mixing cycle and should be very soft, but not melted.  To the pan add a little more than 1 Tbsp of OO, but Crisco or margarine is fine, too. And as Clive said, don't feel compelled to use all the dough as often times its appropriate to cut some off.  And the thickness of the deep dish crust is often not as thick as most people think.

And don't forget to tightly press or crimp the edge of the pizza roughly 1.5" up the sides of the pan.  If you seen my pictures on the previous page, they're rough and jagged, but that makes for a tasty pizza.  (Hope I'm not coming across like a "lecturer" here.)  And home oven technique is yet still another story.  You may want to consider the use of foil as discussed a lot elsewhere to avoid an undercooked pizza.
 
Good luck, hope you take pictures and share your experience with us.
 
                                                                                                        --BTB
 
P.S.  Here's one that I previously did with just using some good 6 in 1 sauce -- and probably a little more cheese than I normally use.  But as they say in Battle Creek, MI . . . it was great!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 11, 2011, 10:55:14 AM
BTB, your pizzas always look orgasmic.

It's a funny thing. Earlier this week, I had been trying to figure out how to make my pizza crusts flakier. I even tried a radical half-pie/half-pizza crust, prepped like a pie: cold shortening, ice-water, all that. It was indeed flaky, but too brittle... a very odd word to describe a pizza dough.

I feel silly about not realizing it now, that it's the "lamination" process that makes a crust flaky. I even worked for a bakery products manufacturer for a few years.... how could I have not made the connection?  :P

So anyway, I tried adding the softened butter last night... it was something I hadn't done before. But.... I got freaked out that I had this slippery ball of dough that wouldn't coalesce. I think I might have screwed the pooch and over-integrated. If I didn't pre-rise, I likely did in the punch-down, pre-fridge.

Would you be willing to give me a little more detail about how you treat your dough when you add butter last? Is it to "laminate" it? Do you try to baby it between the "laminating" and panning process? What is your post-rise punch-down like?

I appreciate it.

I've got a couple pies set for my James Bond night, tonight. Got a favorite Bond, anyone?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 11, 2011, 11:06:20 AM
(Hope I'm not coming across like a "lecturer" here.)

Not at all very helpful!

I'm guessing the warm water you mix with the ADY is part of the total water? And you guys use Semolina dry correct? I saw on the package it talks about mixing it with water and it's ready in 5 minutes? But I can't imagine you do that for this.

I was actually going to download the calculator and what not to mess with today and try and get used to it. Thanks for doing that bit of work for me at least I can figure out if it's correct now. For now  I have to just use my silver deep pan that I normally use for cheese cakes. But I asked for some of the dark baking pans for Christmas so hopefully I get some haha. I know you guys say it won't turn out quite as well and that's ok as it's what I have for now.

I'm going to have to look for some of the info on oven technique because I haven't really cooked any sort of pizzas in my oven other then pre-made.

By the way! That pie looks fantastic. I hope mine can come close to that. Yesterday I purchased the ground pork and some other ingredients. So hopefully today I can get around to starting the prep work and get the dough ready and tomorrow night we will have pizza! Hopefully as long as it doesn't end in total disaster!  :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 11, 2011, 07:34:58 PM
Yes, warmed water was part of the total amount of water to add.  I often just measure out the appropriate total amount of water (using one of those "shot glass" types of  4 or 5 oz. glasses, pour out into another shot glass about 1 to 1 & 1/2 oz. of water, warm slightly in the microwave to 100 to 110 degree F (measured by thermometer), mix in the ADY and wait 10 minutes).  I've probably over simplified that I realize.  The rest of the water I often put in the refrigerator to get real cold, but that's not critical.  (And totally apart from that, I put a shot glass of some good scotch into a glass of ice with a tiny bit of water and consume separately but necessarily as part of this process. This is something one learns about only after retirement, tho. LOL)

Silver exterior pans are a no-no, however, but that's something only time and experience will teach.  You will eventually get the good kinds of pans (sizes 6", 9", 12" and other) with which to make various recipes of your great Chicago Style deep dish pizzas, if you're one of such styles' "aficionados."  Let me know if your wife needs some of Santa's recommendations here for the right kind of pans.

Hope your ground pork wasn't of the "breakfast grind" that some experience.  All sausage -- I think -- like Lithuanian, Polish, German, Italian, etc. is a somewhat more of a coarse grind rather that the fine grind that I've previously seen.  Some of our sausage makers on this website hopefully can add some words of wisdom here.  I'm sure that things will go well for you.  It's a learning process.

                                                                                                          --BTB             ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 11, 2011, 09:51:39 PM
Yeah I was going to go out to the meat place I use and have them coarse grind some pork but not much time this week so figure I'll try it with the stuff from the butcher at the local store. Not ideal and it'll likely not be quite right but that's ok. Eventually I'll just grind my own if I decide to continue making my own sausage.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 12, 2011, 09:18:05 AM
Clive, there's really nothing special about my final mix of soft butter into the dough.  After getting a cohesive dough ball nearly (but not finally) together (maybe 10 or 12 seconds), I then add the softened butter, mix a little by hand, and don't fully blend it into the dough but instead leave it with still viewable streams, bits or lines of butter in parts of the dough ball.  In a crude sort of way, it is a little similar in result to the lamination process whereby butter is spread onto rolled out dough and folded over into layers, etc.  I've tried some of those lamination techniques and didn't find that they affected things much -- at least to me.  And the practice of slightly blending of soft butter into the dough seems to work fine IMO.  But this is only a practice that I've followed for the past year or so as previously I would add melted butter as many of our members here do.
 
None of the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias use a lamination process.  Giordano's crust is somewhat flaky and I think that's because of a little lower hydration, as well as lower proportion of oil, and the fact that they liberally line their deep dish pans with lots of unsalted butter (and I'm learning that it really needs to be unsalted for reasons I have yet to understand) instead of olive oil.

With your dough ball, if before adding the softened butter, the dough seems too oily/slippery, try adding a little flour at a time to the point where it is much less so, not necessarily a dry ball, but much less so.  Then go on to add the butter.  Sometimes it's hard to describe exactly in a posting how some of these processes go.  If you can sometime, try doing two small pizzas -- one with having a dough rise after the final mix as you've done and one without a rise but instead throw it straight into the refrigerator for a day or two.  With the latter, you'll still see much solid streaks of butter when you pull it out of the refrigerator before use.  With the prior, most often one doesn't see much butter as it often blends into the dough when it rises, esp. in a slightly warmed oven.  Both are good, but a little different.  And some of our veteran members here are advocates of the straight to the refrigerator (no rise) technique (retarded dough).  Again, FWIW, which may be nothing.

As for Bond, Goldfinger and the movies prior to it were the best by far.
 
                                                                                  --BTB                ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 12, 2011, 06:12:21 PM
Is it ok to use canolla oil? Or all olive oil? In place of the corn oil. We usually get Canolla instead of corn.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 12, 2011, 06:43:17 PM
Is it ok to use canolla oil? Or all olive oil? In place of the corn oil. We usually get Canolla instead of corn.
In my opinion, no.  I haven't found canola oil to be a good fit for most deep dish pizzas, but there are some who use it.  If it were me, I'd use all olive oil (and not extra virgin) if I didn't have any corn oil which is the oil of choice for most deep dish recipes, esp. Malnati's.  But you can try it and see if you like it with some canola oil.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 12, 2011, 07:26:12 PM
Ok, well I went ahead and used the canola as I wasn't sure if there was some other reason for not going all olive. Got the dough together and it's in the oven now for an hour around 100 degrees. I had to preheat the oven to 170 and then let it sit for a while to drop down. Hopefully it turns out good though! There's some globs of butter here and there as I didn't want to incorporate it too much like you mentioned. After it's been in there an hour going to punch it down and put the lid on the container and store it in the fridge until tomorrow night. Will work on the sausage later tonight.

Is it ok to make the sauce the night before? Or do you usually make it right before you assemble the pizza? I imagine the flavors would blend together more if doing it the night before and not sure if that's the kind of flavor you guys normally go for or not.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jasonk on November 12, 2011, 08:42:23 PM

P.S.  I just noticed some of your earlier postings.  Chicago Style deep dish usually involves use of AP flour, not the high gluten flour or 00 that you indicated using.  That could substantially change the mixing time variable.

Thanks BTB.  My oil test last week was a success, so I'll be upping that a bit...probably to the 15% range. 

Sadly, I there's no such thing as AP flour here.  I was in Hawaii a few weeks ago and really liked the pies I made there, much better texture with the AP flour than what I can get here.  I also removed the Caputo 00 and reduced the higher gluten Japanese flour from 60% to 20% in favor of a lower gluten main and had good results.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 13, 2011, 12:59:24 PM
. . . I had to preheat the oven to 170 and then let it sit for a while to drop down. Hopefully it turns out good though! Is it ok to make the sauce the night before? Or do you usually make it right before you assemble the pizza?
"To make the pizza sauce in advance or not (and/or cook it), . . . that is the question" . . . Shakespeare once said (or was it Joe the Butcher?).  We'd probably have dozens of opinions here.  I swear in the few years that I've started with this pizzamaking, I haven't noticed much of a difference, but for sauce aficionados, they probably would definitely like to make it in advance and cook it.  I don't do much in advance and like all the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias that I'm familiar with, I do NOT cook the sauce ever.  It cooks more than enough while the pizza is baking in the typical longer bake cycle for the Chicago deep dish style or even many or most midwest style thin crust pizzas.  But this question could stir a lot of controversy here, I'm afraid.
 
Everyone does things differently, and in time, you will, too.  But what I do very simply is while the 6 in 1's (or similar) are draining, I'll add and mix a bit of salt, pepper, garlic (preferably minced, but sometimes just powdered), onion powder and maybe one or two more things (reluctantly), but after dressing the pizza, I then "pinch" on (sometimes liberally) some oregano and/or basil before or after some good grated cheese.
 
But bear in mind that I characterize mine as the "purist" approach.  Others who do the "purist PLUS" approach may add everything but the kitchen sink with their pizza and pizza sauce.  But in some of our group pizzamaking ventures, I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard . . . "oh, but I liked your pizza the best!. The sauce was rich and delicious and not overwhelming."  But differences make the world go around, right?  What to do is . . .  your call . . .
 
Regarding the over-heating of the oven for dough rising, I can't begin to tell you how many times I've done that, too.  Open the oven door completely for 10 to 15 minutes with the oven off and that should do it -- being mindful of pets, children and spouses who may ignore the open hot door.
                                                                                
                                                                                    --BTB    
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 13, 2011, 02:56:07 PM
One more question, how much should the dough actually rise in the fridge? It doesn't look like it's changed much overnight.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 13, 2011, 03:17:14 PM
Mine don't typically change a whole lot overnight. I usually try to squeeze as much air out of the bag before I put it in. That way I can see how much gas those little buggers produce. Pretty astounding when you think of how little yeast you actually put in there...

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 13, 2011, 03:36:19 PM
One more question, how much should the dough actually rise in the fridge? It doesn't look like it's changed much overnight.
Like Clive says . . . it Doesn't (rise hardly at all). Cold "retarded" fermentation is . . . either minimal or . . . mysterious somewhat to me.  But my good expert friends here would say . . . don't worry about that.  Go on the bake it after taking the dough out of the refrigerator for 90 to 120 minutes.

Despite that, I sometimes prefer to do "same day" dough whereby I don't refrigerate it overnight (or for a day or two).  Instead I often like the one, two or three times dough rise, keep punching it down, and 6 to 12 hours later . . . using it on the same day.  And doing so has been super great, too.  One must do their own thing here and see what they like the best.  Either way, however, you'll find a really great pizza assuming other cooking procedures were well followed.

                                                                  --BTB 

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: aks801 on November 13, 2011, 10:46:36 PM
First, let me say that this thread has been amazingly informative and inspiring.  Thanks to the OP and everyone else that has contributed.

I expect to try my first deep pie later this week: can't wait!  All my efforts to date have been either NY or Sicilian.  Pleased with both.

I know this has been asked but here goes: any need for par baking?  I have seen some recipes call for this, and many that don't.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 14, 2011, 07:23:35 AM
I know this has been asked but here goes: any need for par baking?  I have seen some recipes call for this, and many that don't.
Generally no.  All the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias do no par baking.  But often times for home oven purposes we have to do things out of the ordinary in order to get closer to commericial baking.  Occasionally I've done par baking here sometimes just to "set" a dough that got too oily, but generally not needed.  I find that for Chicago Style thin crust, par baking is often a plus, tho.

                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 14, 2011, 10:57:16 AM
Well I got our first deep dish made last night.

The sauce was amazing just how I like it, I tasted a little spoon full and wanted to keep eating it haha! The crust was great as well. The sausage I wasn't too happy with, it got a little too sweet and the consistency wasn't quite right? I don't know fun to play with but I don't think I'll be making sausage again anytime soon, we don't generally like sausage pizzas a whole lot anyways. So in a couple days I'll be working on the second pizza and it'll likely be pepperoni.

For my sauce I just used one of the small cans of 6 in 1's, added about 2 tablespoons or so of honey, a teaspoon or so of salt, a bit of dried oregano, a pinch of thyme, some minced garlic, and then about 6 or so leaves of fresh basil. I would even be happy leaving the garlic out next time it was very good. I gave the wife a spoon full and she replied "oh that's awesome I love it" so I think I got the sauce pretty good.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 14, 2011, 11:55:02 AM
Glad to hear it turned out pretty good! Sorry the sausage didn't quite make it, but you live, you learn.

When I started getting serious about deep dish pizzas, I was the most freaked out about the sauce. I quickly learned that it was one of the easiest parts. The dough, though... is so complicated. The proportions, the assembly, the variance in ingredients, your local ecosystem, and your oven all play a part in how it turns out... it's BY FAR the most finicky piece of cooking I've ever done. I'm still trying to get the crust the way I like it...

...But I'm glad to hear that you were satisfied with yours! I bet BTB is even more pleased that his fantastic recipe helped you with your first DD pie. ;)

The light-colored pan worked well enough for you or are you still pining for some dark deeps?

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 14, 2011, 12:46:20 PM
It seemed to work pretty well? It's an un-coated pan, I think it's steel? Too heavy to be aluminum. But the crust was pretty nice. I didn't get it as thin as I think I should have, and it turns out my pan was a 9" but I made dough for a 10". But it came out pretty crisp on the edge, I had to cook it a good bit longer then BTB did with his pizza stone as I don't have a pizza stone. I cooked it like 40 minutes I think? But that seemed to be just about right in my oven. I have some pics here let me show you.

Edit: Pics are too big to upload here, so here they are from photobucket.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/Dougie085/IMAG0057.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c30/Dougie085/IMAG0056.jpg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 14, 2011, 01:36:07 PM
I think the increased cook time might be more a symptom of the light-colored pan than the stone. It'll reflect a lot of that direct heat as opposed to absorb it. For a long-cooking pizza, the stone serves as a temperature regulator as opposed to a heat conduit, like, say, a Neapolitan.

Looks pretty good! Boy that's a lot of sausage! And I love sausage! ;D

Much better than my first attempt, I'll say that much! :chef:

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 14, 2011, 02:56:41 PM
Well, maybe in a few weeks I'll do some more sausage research. I think on Good Eats he did sausage once so I may watch that episode again. The sugar/garlic flavor just wasn't doing it for me though! And I agree it was A LOT of sausage. I tried to make it thinner but it obviously didn't work out that way haha! I wish there was more sauce on it instead, but I ran out of room on the top.

Part of the problem may of been that I was using a nice sweet sauce with a very sweet sausage though.... Either way it just wasn't sitting well with my stomach after half of a second piece lol. I may try some store bought sausage though and do like a meat pie with some other meats.

And you may be right about the cook time with the lighter pan. It didn't seem overcooked though I will say that and the crust wasn't soggy at all which I was a bit worried about.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 14, 2011, 07:51:14 PM
Great job on your first try.  It'll just get better and better.  I did almost half the 28 oz can of sauce on a 9" pizza.  Sausage is my favorite ingredient, but you'll learn to cut back on that somewhat, I'm sure.

Here's so others can see what we're talking about.

                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 14, 2011, 08:36:38 PM
Yea I used about half of whatever size can I have. Not sure what size it is though maybe it is the 28oz though. I like sausage alright but the stuff I made just didn't do it for me.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: buceriasdon on November 15, 2011, 09:24:13 AM
Hdale, There are a number of free downloads on the web for resizing photos but I use this one. Easy to use.
http://www.imageoptimizer.net/Pages/Home.aspx
Don
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 15, 2011, 12:37:03 PM
Yeah, I could of just used photobucket or something but I was heading out the door and didn't have time. Will do that next time though.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 16, 2011, 09:15:10 PM
Tomorrow I'm going to try and prep another dough ball, maybe even 2. This time I think I'll leave out the butter though.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 17, 2011, 08:22:33 AM
Tomorrow I'm going to try and prep another dough ball, maybe even 2. This time I think I'll leave out the butter though.
If you did two, this is where pizzamaking can become a lot of fun -- at least to me.  Whenever I make more than one pizza, I just love to make one of them different from the others and have my taste testers tell me which one was better or what the pluses and minuses of each were.  That way you can try out various things with a recipe to learn what you and yours like the best without waiting for "the next time" that you do pizza.  You'll notice that I did that a lot earlier in this thread.  I love the use of those individual 6" and 7" pans for this purpose.  See below.
 
For instance, you talked now of doing them without butter.  Maybe try one with and one without and see which is the tastiest.  Or substitute some shortening for the butter in one.  Or a different oil in one, like corn oil, and your canola oil in the other.  That's the only way you're going to get definitively close to determining what suits the tastes of your likes and dislikes the most.  Give it a thought and have fun.
 
                                                                                              --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on November 17, 2011, 10:47:20 AM
Yeah, I'm hopefully going to be picking up some of those pizzatools.com pans in the next couple weeks. We have a family tradition that we all eat pizza on Christmas Eve, so I'm hoping this year I can make the pizza rather then us buy it else where.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: DSZ on November 27, 2011, 11:30:55 PM
So after browsing this forum for a long, long time, i finally bit the bullet and made my first serious attempt at deep dish pizza ever (and my first attempt whatsoever in years). Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread, especially BTB.

I opted for 47% hydration and used a mix of 80% all purpose flour, 12% semolina and 8% rice flour. I did use butter but only about 3%. I don't have anything to compare it to but I thought the dough was easy to work with and I was happy with the finished product, though I might up semolina and the butter next time. I did a two hour rise at room temperature, pounded it down and reformed the balls and let it rise an additional five hours, covered, at room temperature.

I had a lot more trouble with the sauce. I made two 10-inch pizzas and thought that 28 ounces of Hunt's whole tomatoes (only choice at the store I went to) would have been more than enough. I didn't have nearly enough tomatoes. I had no choice but to supplement with the only thing I had available - a small can of tomato sauce. Also, I used about 3/4 of a pound of cheese on each pizza (mostly mozzarella with a little provolone). That might have been a  little too much. I say might because I used pretty low quality cheese. Has anyone done taste tests of various store-bought mozzarellas? I'd be curious to know the results.

Anyhow, for a first effort, I'm pretty happy with the results. I know what I need to do with the sauce and cheese.  Any thoughts on the crust?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 28, 2011, 10:18:43 AM
Anyhow, for a first effort, I'm pretty happy with the results. I know what I need to do with the sauce and cheese.  Any thoughts on the crust?

Hi, DSZ, welcome to the forums!

Most importantly: What did you think of your crust?

Overall, I'd say your pizza looks really great for a first try. If I had to give constructive feedback, I'd say it looks a tad dark for my liking, but people's tastes differ. It has taken a long time to figure out how my oven cooks different types of pies, and it's something I'm still tweaking. Or it could be a function of the amount of lipids in the pie. It's really hard to tell from pictures, but the oil content in the second shot looks *maybe* a touch too high. Or maybe it's just butter on the outside of the crust.

One pizza-making attempt, I made the mistake of greasing my pan with a stick of butter, which has a fairly low smoke point. My pizza browned really quickly... Then again, this was at a time when I hadn't really tamed my oven, so that could've been the culprit too.

But again, great job on your first attempt!

P.S. I love your counter-tops.

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on November 28, 2011, 10:23:38 AM
Welcome DSZ.  It looks like your first venture with the Chicago style deep dish pizza turned out really good.  Great job and we appreciate the photos, too, to give use a front seat on viewing your handy work.  The proportions you mentioned all looked good.  I, too, am planning to up the semolina when I next do a similar formulation (to 72/20/8) and 4 to 6% butter.  What you did with the several dough rises and punching down is right on in my estimation.  You'll want to eventually try the rise and refrigeration and the "straight-to-the refrigerator" options just to see the difference and whether those are better or not than the same day effect to suit your tastes.  I hate to straddle the fence, but while they're a little different, all are great.  But tastes here vary, I realize.

Except for your last picture, the dough seemed a little short (quantity) of what I would think is appropriate for a 10" diameter pizza.  You may want to double check that.  The texture of the outer crust looked great and the crumb in the last picture looked perfect.  A little overcooked, tho, is a general impression, but sometimes its hard to tell from a photo.  What kind/characteristics of your oven?  If electric and with visible heating elements, maybe raise a rack level or two (assuming you started from a lower level). 

Amount of sauce looked good, but I see you added some regular sauce.  Suggest you look for some good crushed tomatoes (like 6 in 1's or Walmart's similar stuff).  For the two 9" pizzas that I mentioned above, I used a 28 oz. can, so about 14 oz's. for each pizza and I would have preferred a little more usually.  But many don't like too much tomato sauce, so its a personal preference thing.  Cheese is a long story and I don't know if anyone has a good answer.  I haven't found much difference in most brands over the several years I've done this and the last time I did two pizzas (mentioned above), I loved the half regular low-moisture, part-skimmed with half whole milk (not fresh) combination.  That combination was perfect IMO.

Nice dark pan.  I see that it's slightly tapered and that's fine.  What kind was it?  Keep up the good work and let us know about your future efforts with this style pizza.  The fun just begins (as well as waist line expansion).

                                                                                      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 28, 2011, 10:39:33 AM
Except for your last picture, the dough seemed a little short (quantity) of what I would think is appropriate for a 10" diameter pizza.  You may want to double check that. 

Could be just me, but maybe a little extra dough got caught in the corners of the pan that could've been pressed either inward or upward. Maybe the Thickness Factor was a little low...

DSZ, did you use the dough calc tool, and if so, what was your TF?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: DSZ on November 28, 2011, 01:28:23 PM
Thanks for the comments Clive at Five and BTB.

You're both right that I overcooked a little bit, though it didn't affect the flavor much as nothing tasted burned. And yes, Clive at Five, there was probably some wiggle room with pressing the dough out of the corners. I tried doing it a little and tore the dough a couple of times and got frustrated and went with what I had. Clearly, I'm going to need more patience as I go down this road. I used the dough calculator and went with a thickness factor of .121. The pans are pre-seasoned stacking pans from Pizza Tools.

The oven was electric and I cooked it at 475 on the next to bottom rack. It's actually not my oven. My next effort will be on my gas oven. I don't expect much difference based on the heat source. Should I?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on November 28, 2011, 03:01:03 PM
Yes, actually. My gas oven runs roughly 50 deg hot. >:D

When I cook my pizzas, the dial says 375, but the oven cavity is in the realm of 425.

If you have an oven themometer, use it to find the true temp in the middle of your box versus what your dial says... and "calibrate" accordingly.  ;D

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BBH on December 01, 2011, 11:20:45 AM
I've done this recipe quite a few times and wondering if this is happening to anyone else.  The problem I have it that the dough does not seem to fully cook closer to the center.  What I mean by not fully cook is that the top 50% of the dough (only toward the center of the pan) is more like partially cooked dough - not flaky, more doughy.  I have used standard well seasoned pans as well as pans with holes in the bottom and the same thing.  I can't tell by any of the pics on the post if all the crusts are like this or not. Thickness is about 1/4 inch as well.  Cooking at 475 on a stone.

Any help would be great.

Is it me only or is anyone else seeing this or is this the way it's supposed to be?

Thanks
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: loowaters on December 01, 2011, 12:29:26 PM
BBH, how long have you preheated the stone?  If you don't already do this I recommend preheating the stone as hot as your oven will go for at least 30 minutes but more like 45 minutes then cook on that max temp stone but reduce the oven temp to 475* when the pizza goes in.  Try that and see if it helps your situation.

Loo
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on December 01, 2011, 12:40:29 PM
Pre-heating is good, yes...

You may also want to consider cooking lower and slower. Just like in a deep-fat-fryer, if your oil temp is too hot, your outside will crisp and burn before your inside has a chance to cook. This may be what's happening to your pizza. Especially, if your oven runs a little hot, like mine does, you'll be scorching that pie at "475"... sad day.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BBH on December 01, 2011, 01:06:27 PM
Thank you.

The oven/stone is preheated for 60 minutes and I use a laser temp on the stone to see what it's at -  475 is how hot it is for sure.  My crusts are more dark brown as opposed to golden I suspect because I'm leaving it in longer in an attempt to get the center cooked all the way through.  Edges are brown as well - no char at all.

Pans are commercial pans from a pizza place, well seasoned.  I've been using 47% hydration as opposed to 45%, so will try 45% next to see if any difference and also try out lowering the temps to 450....

Brad
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 09, 2011, 10:17:58 AM
I ordered 5 9" PSTK stacking pans from pizzatools.com. I need them to get here by Christmas Eve as I'm making pizza for our traditional Christmas Eve dinner. I also grabbed a pan gripper, I'd like to order some smaller pans later but for now I just needed them for our dinner.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 09, 2011, 10:48:27 AM
I ordered 5 9" PSTK stacking pans from pizzatools.com. I need them to get here by Christmas Eve as I'm making pizza for our traditional Christmas Eve dinner. I also grabbed a pan gripper, I'd like to order some smaller pans later but for now I just needed them for our dinner.
Nice.  I think you'll really love those pans.  Just first wash them with a little soap and hot water in the sink, rinse and dry.  Here's my pan gripper that I got from them and it is really convenient.  Just make sure you grip the pan tightly until you get it to the stove top, cutting board or whatever.  If someone loosened their grip a little . . . opps.                   --BTB        

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on December 09, 2011, 10:49:57 AM
BTB, how big a pan can you reasonably expect to hold with that gripper?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 09, 2011, 10:56:04 AM
BTB, how big a pan can you reasonably expect to hold with that gripper?
I've held up to about a 12" pan comfortably by itself, but when I do a 14", I do the same as they do at Malnati's restaurants and have a spatula or something in the other hand underneath the pan to better hold the heavier pizza weight.  At the restaurants, they usually always bring all size pan pizzas out to the tables using a metal gripper, but with another implement for the large size pans.   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 09, 2011, 11:25:48 AM
I ordered a gripper from Amazon actually, it was a good bit cheaper and still looked pretty nice. If it doesn't work as well that's ok it wasn't much money.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003B671DY/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003B671DY/?tag=pizzamaking-20)

Is the one from pizzatools metal? It looks a lot nicer in your pics then what I saw on their site.....hmmm
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 09, 2011, 11:38:09 AM
In the past I often looked for more inexpensive options, but have learned that even if "a little more," it sometimes is worth getting it.  I thought that since pizza tools are their specialty of sorts, that I would order from pizzatools.com and have never been disappointed.  But I'm sure that all the grippers work similarly and yours will be fine.  Mine is some sort of heat resistant plastic-like material for which I don't know the details of.  But I highly recommend it as it is super handy in handling hot DD or other pans.    
                                                                 --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 09, 2011, 11:56:08 AM
I went ahead and canceled the one from Amazon, the one from Pizzatools looks much nicer. I don't seem to be able to edit my order though, so I'm not sure I can add it on? Might have to wait until I order some other items from them.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 09, 2011, 01:31:16 PM
Hdale85,

I would call PizzaTools and see if you can have them modify your order.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 10, 2011, 01:33:36 AM
Yea I may, I have to make sure I have enough extra now lol. I got an email today that they are making my pans and they should ship by the 14th? Strange they don't have a stock of them. I hope they arrive before the 24th as that's when I need to use them lol.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 16, 2011, 03:42:43 PM
Well I got my pans today, one thing I'm a bit disappointed about is it doesn't seem like the coating is all that durable, as on the top edges it's kind of scuffed up and knicked a bit already? Doubt it's from shipping. Do any of your pans look like that? Maybe it's normal. I guess for almost 20 dollars a piece I was expecting them to be nicer, but proof is in the pudding I guess. They still seem a bit expensive for what they are.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2011, 04:22:22 PM
Hdale85,

I would call PizzaTools and discuss your situation. I have ordered several PSTK items from PizzaTools in the past and they all arrived in good order. Maybe you can take a photo and include it in an email to PizzaTools if that will help them assess your situation.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 16, 2011, 04:25:18 PM
Well it just the rim, and looking at some of the pictures I see similar markings on some of BTB's pans and what not..... Honestly they probably work fine which is why I said proof is in the pudding.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 16, 2011, 04:26:09 PM
I did have a question, do you guys not wash your pans after the first cook? I see a lot of people say they just wipe them out with oil after use?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2011, 04:41:00 PM
I did have a question, do you guys not wash your pans after the first cook? I see a lot of people say they just wipe them out with oil after use?

You might find it useful to read the FAQs at the PizzaTools website at http://www.pizzatools.com/content/PizzaTools/CustomPages/faq.htm.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 16, 2011, 04:44:54 PM
I did have a question, do you guys not wash your pans after the first cook? I see a lot of people say they just wipe them out with oil after use?

It depends on the pan.

Most non-stick pans, like the Chicago Metallic ones,
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003YKGS4A/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003YKGS4A/?tag=pizzamaking-20)
should be cleaned by hand (even though they claim they are dishwasher safe), but otherwise don't need any special care.

If you are using one of those seasoned steel pans, then you want to typically treat it like cast iron, avoiding soap.
Hot water is fine, as long as you thoroughly dry the pan, and then coat it with oil.

Never put any of these pans in the dishwasher.

Others in this forum have talked about deep dish pans in some other discussions.
Perhaps someone can point you out to a link regarding the "blackening" of the outsides of deep dish pans, etc.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 16, 2011, 04:47:48 PM
Well I got the ones from pizzatools that are PSTK coated. But I've seen some people say that for flavor they don't wash them, they are hardened aluminum pans though. I know you can wash them, and I see it says not to use oil unless in the recipe.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 16, 2011, 04:54:03 PM
Well I got the ones from pizzatools that are PSTK coated. But I've seen some people say that for flavor they don't wash them, they are hardened aluminum pans though. I know you can wash them, and I see it says not to use oil unless in the recipe.

You can totally go with the "wipe out" method, but if the pan gets a little gunk on the inside, feel free to go at it with some hot water and a plastic scrubby.  :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 16, 2011, 05:28:48 PM
Well I got the ones from pizzatools that are PSTK coated. But I've seen some people say that for flavor they don't wash them, they are hardened aluminum pans though. I know you can wash them, and I see it says not to use oil unless in the recipe.
Pay little to no attention to their advice regarding use of oil (except vegetable oil).  See
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg116742.html#msg116742.

Advise to wash for first use and lightly by hand thereafter.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 16, 2011, 05:34:03 PM
Pay little to no attention to their advice regarding use of oil (except vegetable oil).  See
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg116742.html#msg116742.

Advise to wash for first use and lightly by hand thereafter.

Almost forgot to mention, I've been using "PAM for Grilling" spray in the bottom of my pans with great results.
It's made for high-heat cooking and contains mostly cottonseed oil. It definitely helps to make the bottom crust crispy in the center.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dbgtr on December 17, 2011, 08:59:33 AM
A number of different pans have been recommended here over the years and I'm about to upgrade from my old all steel Chicago Metallic, tapered 1.5" pans to a heavier pan.  I'd like some feedback from folks on the efficacy of straight versus tapered sides as well as the Pizza Tools PSTK, the American Metalcraft hard anodized pans (also 14ga), and the Chicago Metallic Bakalon anodized pans, as well as 1.5" or 2."
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 19, 2011, 08:15:50 AM
I've had many different kinds and brands of deep dish pizza pans over the years and most all of them work fairly good.  Among them are all the brands you mentioned and all of them, of course, are darker colored pans, no shiny ones that reflect heat outwards, except one that is shiny on the inside but not on the outside.  Straight-sided are traditional and ALL the classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias have such (and the sides at all of them are 2").  But I've mentioned elsewhere's that tradition and home pizzamaking practicality sometimes has to be considered when "extracting" a deep dish pizza from the pan.  For my small 6" to 9" straight-sided pans, I generally have no problems getting the pizza out of a straight-sided pan and onto the cutting board.  For the 12" size, it gets a little trickier.  And for the 14" size, it gets much more difficult, I find.    
 
My choice in the future will be some more of the Pizzatools/Lloyd pans.  They appear straight-sided but are slightly tapered in that the bottom pan dimensions are slightly smaller than the dimensions at the top of the pan, but it is insignificant.  But for my large size pizzas, which I don't do too frequently (i.e. 14") I would consider more of a tapered pan as it becomes a little easier to "slide" the pizza out (after nudging it with a spatula or something).  I prefer the 2" depth as I like to tightly press or crimp the edge of the dough far up the side of the pan for a nice crisp crust.  Those I've made in a 2" pan always look better than those I've made in a 1.5" pan.  But with any of the brands that you mentioned, I don't think you can go wrong.

                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on December 20, 2011, 03:34:55 AM
Just for an additional two cents, I have the Chicago Metallic Bakalon pans mentioned by dbgtr. I do not wash them after use, only wipe out the crumbs. They are starting to get a _really_ nice seasoning...

FWIW, not all Chicago Metallic pans are made alike. The kind you find at Bed Bath and Beyond with "Chicago Metallic" stamped in the bottom are actually manufactured by a 3rd party and are different than the "Bakalon" pans. I have one of each and recommend the latter, but not the former.

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 10:15:45 AM
Last week I made the following 9" diameter Chicago style deep dish pizza (bowl residue of 2% and TF of .125):
 
Flour Blend* (100%):  208.94 g  |  7.37 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%):  94.02 g  |  3.32 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.46 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.09 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.54 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.79 tsp | 0.93 tbsp
Corn Oil (10%):  20.89 g | 0.74 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.64 tsp | 1.55 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (4%):  8.36 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
Shortening/Crisco (3%):  6.27 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.13 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Total (171.2%): 357.7 g | 12.62 oz | 0.79 lbs | TF = 0.1275
 
*Flour blend consisted of 75% (156.75 g) KAAP, 17% (35.5 g) semolina flour, and 8% (16.7 g) of rice flour. 
 
The pizza was baked in my GE Profile electric oven on the bottom rack (no apparent heating elements) at 435 degrees F for roughly 30 to 35 minutes (checking the bottom from time to time to assure adequate brownness).
 
While this is close to one of my basic recipes, I deviated a bit for the sake of curiosity and diversity.  I decreased the corn oil and softened butter just a bit and added a slight amount of Crisco.  Result was tasty, flavorful, crispy and . . . fantastic.  Pics follow.
 
                                                                               --BTB                         ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 10:28:49 AM
And here are some further photos just to give an idea to others about the pizza "building and dressing" process.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 10:31:27 AM
And the final dressing before baking and . . . consuming!  It's called Chicago style deep dish pizza heaven! ! !
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 21, 2011, 10:45:18 AM
Great photos, BTB!  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 11:18:13 AM
Thanks, Ed.  Your website continues to be fantastic, I see.
 
I forgot to include a photo here with some pieces of sliced cheese on top of the dough.  I sometimes like to get a little more coverage with the sliced cheese, so I break apart some pieces and place them to where I think they may cover the dough nicely.  And sometimes the extra pieces are provolone, which is a nice added cheese to the mozzarella.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 21, 2011, 11:44:41 AM
I had a question I was thinking of the other day, I'm going to be making 6 pizza's as I said, all different toppings. One is going to have chunks of slab bacon in it along with pepperoni, I know generally we like to put raw meats in due to the length of cook time, but if I wanted the bacon sort of crisp would I pre cook it? Not sure how it would taste if I put them in raw?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 21, 2011, 11:52:50 AM
I had a question I was thinking of the other day, I'm going to be making 6 pizza's as I said, all different toppings. One is going to have chunks of slab bacon in it along with pepperoni, I know generally we like to put raw meats in due to the length of cook time, but if I wanted the bacon sort of crisp would I pre cook it? Not sure how it would taste if I put them in raw?

I usually par-cook my bacon because bacon releases a lot of grease.
If you're putting par-cooked or pre-cooked bacon on top, keep an eye on it to make sure it doesn't burn. I often cover my pizzas halfway thru cooking time with a loose sheet of aluminum foil to protect the stuff on top from burning.

If you're using it raw, try dicing it (try diced prosciutto some time),
but go easy on the amount you use or you'll have a puddle of grease.  :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 21, 2011, 11:54:28 AM
Well I was planning on putting it inside with the pepperoni, I have like 3 people who's favorite topping is pepperoni and bacon lol. I'll probably par cook it a bit to get down some of the grease and give it the bacon flavor (chared a bit) and then just throw it on top of the roni.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 21, 2011, 11:57:36 AM
Well I was planning on putting it inside with the pepperoni, I have like 3 people who's favorite topping is pepperoni and bacon lol. I'll probably par cook it a bit to get down some of the grease and give it the bacon flavor (chared a bit) and then just throw it on top of the roni.
Good idea!

One other reason I'd recommend going easy on the bacon is that the flavor can "take over" the whole pizza.
If you're wanting to have more than one ingredient, you will want to go easy on the bacon.

You could also try working par-cooked bacon into the dough.  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 12:00:49 PM
I never do bacon but would find crispy bacon interesting, but would think it would be best to pre-cook it at least 3/4s of the way, but that's a guess.  Otherwise, alot of . . . bacon grease I would think would remain on the pizza which would not be good.  Ed's done a lot of bacon, tho, so he may have some tips (which I see he's already given).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 21, 2011, 12:09:17 PM
I never do bacon but would find crispy bacon interesting, but would think it would be best to pre-cook it at least 3/4s of the way, but that's a guess.  Otherwise, alot of . . . bacon grease I would think would remain on the pizza which would not be good.  Ed's done a lot of bacon, tho, so he may have some tips (which I see he's already given).

Yeah, I have!  :chef:
 :pizza:http://www.realdeepdish.com/2010/02-07-superbacon-deep-dish-the-superbowl-of-deep-dish-pizza/ (http://www.realdeepdish.com/2010/02-07-superbacon-deep-dish-the-superbowl-of-deep-dish-pizza/) :pizza:
 :pizza:http://www.realdeepdish.com/2010/05-15-pizza-de-mayo-a-deep-dish-celebration/ (http://www.realdeepdish.com/2010/05-15-pizza-de-mayo-a-deep-dish-celebration/) :pizza:
 :pizza:http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/05-13-pizza-de-mayo-2011-featuring-deep-dish-meatza-2-electric-meataloo/ (http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/05-13-pizza-de-mayo-2011-featuring-deep-dish-meatza-2-electric-meataloo/) :pizza:

If you take out your pizza and notice there's a giant moat of grease, you can always soak it up with several paper towels, or use a turkey baster and transfer that grease to a heat-proof container, and then refrigerate it after it cools down a bit for cooking some pizza grease omelets the next morning! :-)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: norma427 on December 21, 2011, 01:08:38 PM
BTB,

Delicious looking Deep-Dish pizza.  ;D Oh, only to be able to taste it.  :P

Great job!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 21, 2011, 01:12:18 PM
I know most of you guys stick to the traditional sausage topping, but I plan on doing a sausage, pepperoni and bacon, pineapple and black olives, artichoke hearts, onion, and sweet sausage, and probably a plain pepperoni for the 6th. Or for the 6th I may do something with mini portobello mushrooms and onions, not sure what meat I'd put in with it? Sausage would probably work ok.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 21, 2011, 04:57:33 PM
I would suggest to keep ingredients to just a few per pizza.  Loading one pizza with the kitchen sink may lead to a pizza that . . . few reach for!  And be light on the ingredients without a lot of one over another.

Yes, my favorite ingredient is sausage and here was a VERY common story when we went out to the business lunches and dinners at the famed Chicago style deep dish pizzerias.  We had a dozen guys (and some gals) and at ordering time, some said they want this and that, and others said no, they'd like that and this, and lowly little me would meekly say . . . I just like plain sausage.  Well one or two would chime in and say . . well I can have a piece of that, too, but would eat more of the other pizzas with other ingredients. 

To make a LONG story short, here is my "take away" (i.e., lesson) from years of experience with this.  When with a large group you order multiple pizzas with varying ingredients and one or two with just plain sausage . . . . guess what?  My theory and experience has been that 99% of the time the sausage pizza gets eaten up and disappears first most of time!  And I'm often left without something I really like.  And what's left over are all the pieces of non-sausage pizza.  But that's life, right?  Suggest a variety, but sausage will be the leading contender, guaranteed.

                                                                                                  --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 22, 2011, 12:06:26 AM
Actually those are all toppings that everyone likes and certain pizza's are what some prefer. Sausage always gets ordered when we get together over there but usually it's got some left over at the end. Just our family really, I know what they like which is why I'm making it with these particular toppings. Like Pineapple and Black Olives is one of the family's favorites (not mine) so if it weren't for them I wouldn't make that one lol.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 23, 2011, 06:24:22 PM
Does this seem right for a 9"? Trying to get the calculator down. I don't want to use butter so this is what I've got

Flour (100%):    136.71 g  |  4.82 oz | 0.3 lbs
Water (45%):    61.52 g  |  2.17 oz | 0.14 lbs
ADY (.7%):    0.96 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (1%):    1.37 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Oil (20%):    27.34 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.08 tsp | 2.03 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    2.05 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (168.2%):   229.95 g | 8.11 oz | 0.51 lbs | TF = 0.1275

I'm not sure how to split the oil into 2 different kinds? And the flour will be 20% semolina 80% KAAP, which works out to roughly 109.37g of KAAP and 27.34g of semolina? And I put in 20% oil as I'm not using butter so I'd guess 12% of corn? 8% of OO?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 23, 2011, 06:30:40 PM
Also do you guys think it's possible to mix up 6 dough balls in one mixing bowl?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on December 23, 2011, 06:59:05 PM
Also do you guys think it's possible to mix up 6 dough balls in one mixing bowl?

Ratio of oils, if you use more than one, is really up to personal taste.
When I make pizza dough, I usually go with 50% olive / 50% corn, but others use less olive oil in their formulations.

If your measurements are right, six 9" dough balls would be more than 6 cups of flour.
I can't imagine having a bowl that large unless you're using a commercial mixer.



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 23, 2011, 07:00:34 PM
Alright, well I have to start on the dough right now so going over my calculations they seem about right. I think I'll do 3 dough balls at a time.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 23, 2011, 09:10:48 PM
Well, second set of dough balls are proofing now, first set are in the fridge. I think I must be getting the hang of it because it wasn't as big of a headache as I thought haha.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 26, 2011, 03:13:35 PM
Well, Christmas Eve pizza was a hit, everyone loved it :) Those new pans work wonderfully! Definitely a bit more crispy, and cooks faster.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on December 27, 2011, 09:52:37 AM
Well, Christmas Eve pizza was a hit, everyone loved it :) Those new pans work wonderfully! Definitely a bit more crispy, and cooks faster.
Congratulations!  I'm truly happy to hear that everything went well.  Those pans are wonderful and really make one look good at pizzamaking, don't they?  

I had hoped that you would have some photos to share but I realize -- as it often happened to me -- that with pulling everything together and managing, baking and making of many, many pizzas that it is tough to remember to pick up the camera and take shots in the various stages.  Over time you'll want to do so to share your great successes in photos with us on this site.

Again, great job and congratulations.  In time you'll be the pro that everyone looks up to.

                                                                --BTB                      :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hdale85 on December 27, 2011, 11:02:48 AM
Yeah, I had planned to take some pictures but things were a bit crazy, I was exhausted, and by time the pizza was done I was just glad it was over! haha. I'll probably make another one at home soon though and will certainly snap a couple photo's this time. It was probably 10x better then my last pizza, the layer of cheese was MUCH more reasonable. I didn't use sliced cheese because I didn't have time to run to Sams last week but I drained the sauce a bit longer this time to keep some moisture off the dough and it really didn't come out soggy, but next time I'll be buying some sliced cheese for sure.

The sausage I used this time was from Giant Eagle which their meats are usually pretty good, probably best of any grocery store around here. It was links because the butcher area was closed and they didn't have any ground sausage out. It was better then my sausage but still not really my cup of tea. I loved the pepperoni though was fantastic and my favorite of the pizza's I made, which I only made pepperoni, sausage, one that was pepperoni sausage and black olives and one that was pineapple and black olives.

The thing I was looking least forward to was dough making but it actually wasn't too bad.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 13, 2012, 05:57:12 PM
hey guys, first time posting here. I registered specifically so I could learn how to make a lou malnati-style pizza. It's my favorite chicago pizza from what I've tried in Chicago.

So, I'm about to read all 30 pages of this thread....lol...but do you all recommend I follow the recipe in this thread? Is this the best thread to read or is there another in this forum that I should review before making this pizza? Thanks!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 15, 2012, 09:20:39 AM
hey guys, first time posting here. I registered specifically so I could learn how to make a lou malnati-style pizza. It's my favorite chicago pizza from what I've tried in Chicago.

So, I'm about to read all 30 pages of this thread....lol...but do you all recommend I follow the recipe in this thread? Is this the best thread to read or is there another in this forum that I should review before making this pizza? Thanks!
Skunker, welcome to our site.  You'll in time enjoy all the pizzamaking information, tips and ideas on it as there is not another site as good as this one on all of the internet.  I may shock you, but NONE of us know the exact Malnati dough recipe, but a lot would say that many of the people here actually make the crust of a deep dish pizza even better than a Malnati's (or Uno's or Gino's or Giordano's, etc) pizza.
 
Which recipe to recommend?  Well, how many members do we have . . . thousands?  Tough to give a quickie answer.  There are no short cuts to studying and examining many of the threads and ideas and thoughts contained therein . . . unfortunately.  You'll have to experience some trial and error in replicating others' ideas and formulations to determine for yourself . . . which are the best recipes for you and yours.  And that will constantly change IMO as you get deeper into "deep dish" pizzamaking.  Remember . . . its an art and not a science (trite saying, I know).
 
I like a deep dish pizza with a little semolina in the flour blend.  Others like Ed at http://www.realdeepdish.com do slightly differently, as well as a number of "pro" pizzamakers on this site (e.g. DKM, Loowaters, etc).  To get to Chicago Style deep-dish pizza Valhalla, tho, is a personal thing and will be up to you in the end.
 
Don't hesitate to ask questions (seemingly dumb or not) on pizzamaking ideas, but realize that asking "which one should I use" or "which is the best one?" is next to impossible to answer.
 
                                                                                      --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 15, 2012, 10:27:30 AM
Well, I just finished spending 3-4hrs reading ALL 30 PAGES OF THIS THREAD. Worth it!

I'm going to make a run to my local grocer and see which of the suggested ingredients I can purchase locally. I'm in San Antonio and I see that someone has already mentioned he found 6in1 there. If anyone has figured out what company bottles the Lou Malnati tomatoes are, please share.

Just ordered a 9" Chicago Metallic deep dish pan (Bakalon) and a kitchen scale.

Report back later....
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 15, 2012, 03:36:23 PM
Hi all, may want to double check your Olive Oil if you are using it to make your pizza. I bought a bottle from the CRISCO brand called "Pure Olive Oil" thinking it was nothing but plain and pure Olive Oil....but the ingredients said the following: Refined olive oil and Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

So, if some of you are burning your pizzas, may want to look into your Oil.

Also, does anyone know what would be a good substitute for Polly-O Whole Milk Mozzarella cheese? I can't get that brand here in Texas. Thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: webmeist on January 15, 2012, 07:06:36 PM
My first real post here!
 ;D
I'm going to go back over the 30 pages, but just some clarification?
When you're mixing the dough, you're doing it by hand or in a mixer?
And, has anyone used more fresh mozzarella, the juicy kind in water, or
that would make it too soggy, I suppose?
Thanks. Can't wait to get a pan...
 :chef:
webmeist
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 15, 2012, 09:11:08 PM
Hi webmeist, welcome!

BTB (or anyone that knows), does it matter if I use a 9" x 1.5" pan or do you recommend I get a 9" x 2" ?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 16, 2012, 08:35:59 AM
Skunker, the Crisco olive oil is only rated as "fair" but it will do all right.  As you get into pizzamaking more, you'll want to find out about the better brands of olive oil and that sometimes is easier said than done.  Some write ups on the subject swear that they only send junk olive oil to the U.S. and keep the good stuff in Europe.  California olive oil is reportedly good, tho.  Check out the America's Test Kitchen site for ratings of various brands of olive oil, but focus on the regular kind, altho some like the heavier taste of extra virgin.

You can order Escalon's 6 in 1's in 28 oz. cans over the internet (at 25 cents a can delivery) and expect it in about a week.  They have good service if you're unable to find some locally.  Walmart's Great Value brand is reportedly good, too. I don't know if they've ever tracked down who cans the tomatoes for Malnati's.  My cans simply say "Grown & Packaged for Lou Malnati's Pizzeria" and "Central Valley Growing Region, California" but nothing regarding the supplier's identity.

Polly-O is generally available throughout the U.S. and I'm surprised that you're unable to find it.  Kraft's, Boar's Head and many other brands will work nice, too, but fresh mozzarella -- while very tasty -- too often leads to a wet and/or soggy pizza.  I have, tho, on occasion added a few small pieces of some good fresh mozzarella for variety and diversity.  

Regarding the pan, it doesn't matter too much which one you use.  Traditional pans are 2" deep and that's what I prefer.  I do have one that's 1 and 1/2" high and with that one I really try to get the dough up the sides to the top of the pan.  I like a somewhat tall, thin, crisp rim if at all possible tho.

Webmeist, welcome also to the site.  I addressed somewhat the "fresh Mozzarella" question above.  None of the classic Chicago Style Deep Dish Pizzerias use fresh mozzarella as it too often leads to a wet pizza that many mistake as a "greasy" pizza.  Generally "part-skimmed, low moisture" mozzarella is used, but I do like some brands of whole milk, low moisture cheese.  In time you'll want to add some other cheeses, like provolone to give some added flavor.

                                                                                          --BTB  

Added comment -- the Polly-O cheese only comes in a small or medium loaf that one has to slice yourself.  You can usually pick up a slicer with a wire and roller portion for 4 to 6 dollars at many local large grocery stores to do the job.  Otherwise, Sorrento, Sargento, Kraft and others (including even store brands) come sliced in the package and are generally very good also.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 18, 2012, 04:47:17 PM
BTB,
 I've just about located all of the products needed to make a DD pizza but am stumped on how to handle the mozzerella part. Since I am new to the "low moisture" and "whole milk" mozerella cheeses, I can't seem to find Polly-o whole milk mozz blocks (although one store had SMOKED version). One store had it's own version of whole milk mozz, but I wasn't sure whether that would cut it. So, what's a good alternative brand?

Also, I did see several whole milk fresh mozz but they were encased in water. I guess that is not "low moisture"??  :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 18, 2012, 05:46:59 PM
Skunker, I'd say most of the time people use part-skimmed, low moisture mozzarella cheese, so look for slices of that to start out making Chicago Style deep dish.  That's what I used for 80 - 90% of all my pizzas.  Kraft, Sorrento, and many other brands are fine cheeses, too, even Walmart's Great Value brand.  And as you get more familiar with looking for and finding other brands of cheese, then try to get some others just to compare.  I'm really not hung up on too many brands (altho I tend to stick with Polly-O and Boar's Head, but so many others are so close . . .).
 
The small block or loafs of Polly-O and Sorrento mozzarella are usually not in the super market where all the cheeses are hanging from the racks, but just down below just laying further down in the cooler.  Sometimes they are not as obvious as the cheeses hanging up above, but they're generally there.  Ask someone at the super market and they'll know where or what they have.
 
I would suggest when first starting out with deep dish, forget the wet "fresh" mozzarella.  That leads to some complications not good for initial experience with deep dish.  That kind is most often reserved for Neapolitan or some east coast varieties and while good, it doesn't have it's place in most midwest styles (please no controversy). 
 
Please get you camera ready and let us all know the pluses and minuses of your pizzamaking experience.  Sharing such is what we are all about on this website.
 
                                                                                            --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 19, 2012, 07:36:28 PM
Is it possible to do this without a kitchen scale? I won't get it until about a week but I thought I'd "practice" and eat some pizza this weekend when my dad comes over. I just got my 9x1.5" pan in today:)

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 20, 2012, 08:53:42 AM
Is it possible to do this without a kitchen scale?
Sure, the main ingredients that a scale helps with are the liquids, like water and oils, and the flours, including semolina.  You should get one of those little 4 or 5 oz. glasses which have markings for the number of ounces on the side (supermarkets, K-mart, Walmart, BB&B, etc).  For each of the liquids you can roughly approximate what you need from the recipe (whichever one you're using).  For the flour, you can easily search the internet for conversion of a cup of all purpose flour to weights and apply some basic math to determine how many cups and fractions thereof you'll need for the recipe.  For instance, one site says that 1 cup of all purpose flour weighs 4.41 ounces.  Other sites and other kinds of flour show different weights, but that's a fair one to use.  While the semolina may be a little different, I would just use the same weight for your purpose.

For the rest of the ingredients, I think teaspoons and tablespoons are fine to use.  Good luck and hope things come out to your satisfaction.

                                                                                        --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BDoggPizza on January 20, 2012, 03:20:53 PM
I have been making amazing Chicago Style pizzas in my home for a few years now.  Thanks to all the hard work put into this site with recipes from DKM, Loowaters, BTB, Pete-zza and others I am 100% satisfied with my current recipe.  Thanks guys!  With that said.  Its time for a new challenge.  I would love to try BTB's recipe here that is listed over 31 pages of posts.  That's the problem.  I was wondering if anyone, or BTB, could post BTB's current recipe & process?  That would be great!  Looking forward to trying a new recipe. 

Thanks,
BDogg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dellavecchia on January 20, 2012, 05:51:12 PM
I have been making amazing Chicago Style pizzas in my home for a few years now.  Thanks to all the hard work put into this site with recipes from DKM, Loowaters, BTB, Pete-zza and others I am 100% satisfied with my current recipe.  Thanks guys!  With that said.  Its time for a new challenge.  I would love to try BTB's recipe here that is listed over 31 pages of posts.  That's the problem.  I was wondering if anyone, or BTB, could post BTB's current recipe & process?  That would be great!  Looking forward to trying a new recipe. 

Thanks,
BDogg

I am trying this recently posted BTB recipe and workflow as we speak:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg157947.html#msg157947

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 20, 2012, 10:23:59 PM
While waiting for my supplies to come in the mail so I can make a "BTB" pizza, I decided to do a practice run and make a Papa Del's pizza (recipe from front page of this website). It did not go well. The pan I am using is a 9" Chicago Metallic Bakalon. I added crisco to the pan (butter flavored) and also the sides and it burned! The pizza was not even ready to be taken out. I had placed the pizza on the lowest rack in the oven at 425 for 40mins.

Anyone have any ideas why the burn? At first, I thought it was my pan that burned! Black soot around some of the edge of the pizza. Too embarrassed to post a pic  :(
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 21, 2012, 08:33:35 AM
Skunker, I feel so bad about your unsatisfactory experience.  It's a little hard from afar to speculate on what happened since we have no real knowledge of your equipment, circumstances, etc.  I have no idea about the Papa Del's recipe, but your experience sounds unusual.  What kind of oven?  Gas or electric or what?  If electric, do you have those red hot coils viewable in the bottom of the oven?  If so, that is probably one source of the problem.  With such, one needs to put the baking pizza at mid-level or one level down from the mid-level rack.  But with my GE Profile and similar ovens there are no red hot coils in view and the bottom rack (or one up) is the best rack level to bake a deep dish at.  Here's dumb question, I know, but you did let the oven warm up for 30 to 60 minutes prior to baking the pizza, right?  I'm sure you did.

While I don't think so, it is possible that way too much Crisco was used.  But that seemingly shouldn't have been the source of the burning like you described.  BTW, one shouldn't lubricate the "sides" of the pan with Crisco or oil, just the bottom of the deep dish pan.  I often wipe the sides of the lubricated pan with a paper towel, but that's a minor thing.  And your pan was a solid piece pan, right?  Give it some thought and let us know of any other relevant details to help us help you on this as this just seems to be peculiar.

                                                                                              --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 21, 2012, 09:58:12 AM
Skunker, I feel so bad about your unsatisfactory experience.  It's a little hard from afar to speculate on what happened since we have no real knowledge of your equipment, circumstances, etc.  I have no idea about the Papa Del's recipe, but your experience sounds unusual.  What kind of oven?  Gas or electric or what?  If electric, do you have those red hot coils viewable in the bottom of the oven?  If so, that is probably one source of the problem.  With such, one needs to put the baking pizza at mid-level or one level down from the mid-level rack.  But with my GE Profile and similar ovens there are no red hot coils in view and the bottom rack (or one up) is the best rack level to bake a deep dish at.  Here's dumb question, I know, but you did let the oven warm up for 30 to 60 minutes prior to baking the pizza, right?  I'm sure you did.

While I don't think so, it is possible that way too much Crisco was used.  But that seemingly shouldn't have been the source of the burning like you described.  BTW, one shouldn't lubricate the "sides" of the pan with Crisco or oil, just the bottom of the deep dish pan.  I often wipe the sides of the lubricated pan with a paper towel, but that's a minor thing.  And your pan was a solid piece pan, right?  Give it some thought and let us know of any other relevant details to help us help you on this as this just seems to be peculiar.

                                                                                              --BTB

Excellent questions. I think the evidence is somewhere in your investigation. Also, I was a little impatient since I was hungry and it was getting late in the evening. Bad combo!

I have a GE electric stove with bottom and top heat coils. I put the pizza on the lowest rack possible. Next time I will put it one rack up:) Interestingly, the side of the pizza burned, not the bottom (see attached pic). This was a total learning experience for me as I've never made a pizza from scratch in my life. I also did not warm up for the oven for more than 20mins (I just see the red preheat light go off meaning it's time to cook!) Also, I may have used too much Crisco (it was easy getting the pizza out of the pan) and definitely greased the sides of the pan , so I guess that's not a good idea. Yes, a solid 9x1.5 piece pan from Chicago Metallics.

Good thing it was just a test run using some old cans I had around the pantry (the tomato puree was nasty out of the can). Next one is gonna be the recipe from this thread. Have a good weekend!



Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 21, 2012, 05:23:04 PM
From the looks of that photo, you probably used too much sauce, which likely overflowed to the edges and burned when the dough rose during baking, but BTB is also right about not greasing the sides of the pan.

Some of us actually prefer a little bit of char on our pizzas, so I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about it.
Also, if you don't have an oven thermometer to check the temp of your oven, you might want to pick one up.

The pizza looks good to me! :-)  :pizza:

Excellent questions. I think the evidence is somewhere in your investigation. Also, I was a little impatient since I was hungry and it was getting late in the evening. Bad combo!

I have a GE electric stove with bottom and top heat coils. I put the pizza on the lowest rack possible. Next time I will put it one rack up:) Interestingly, the side of the pizza burned, not the bottom (see attached pic). This was a total learning experience for me as I've never made a pizza from scratch in my life. I also did not warm up for the oven for more than 20mins (I just see the red preheat light go off meaning it's time to cook!) Also, I may have used too much Crisco (it was easy getting the pizza out of the pan) and definitely greased the sides of the pan , so I guess that's not a good idea. Yes, a solid 9x1.5 piece pan from Chicago Metallics.

Good thing it was just a test run using some old cans I had around the pantry (the tomato puree was nasty out of the can). Next one is gonna be the recipe from this thread. Have a good weekend!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dellavecchia on January 22, 2012, 01:29:45 PM
I want to wholeheartedly thank BTB for his contributions here. I followed the following thread post, which is very comprehensive, to the letter. The only variation was that I adjusted the yeast for fresh yeast and a 2 day cold ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg157947.html#msg157947

I have never attempted this style of pizza, and my understanding of how it's done really has only come from this thread and the opening sequence of an America's Test Kitchen episode with Lou Malnati making the pizza. I have not been to Chicago. The only time I have had this style of pizza was at Uno's when I was a kid.

The cheese is Boar's Head whole milk mozzarella, the sauce is Sclafani crushed tomatoes with pinches of sugar, pepper, hot red chili flakes, and fresh oregano added. The sausage is pork shoulder with salt, pepper, and fennel (apparently NOT a Malnatis addition). Flour is KAAP and Bob's Red Mill semolina. Baked at 425 for 30 minutes on the middle rack with convection. I am just floored at how good this tastes. My wife and I were so skeptical that the sausage would cook - we even took a friendly bet (it did!). But the flavor of the ingredients and the crust is outstanding. The crust is flaky and tender, with big, buttery flavor. I could only eat a small slice though, as it is very rich. One is going with me to a playoff game this afternoon.

I am after some critique: is there anything glaring that I am not doing correctly? Anything you would do differently? I understand that Malnatis may not use semolina, but is there something that might make it more authentic as it applies to that pizzeria? Any feedback appreciated.

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 22, 2012, 11:23:06 PM
That looks GOOD! But, you didn't include the MONEY SHOT! Ya know, teh one where you slice a piece and show the cheese string and all....
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 25, 2012, 08:08:03 AM
Great job and pictures, John.  Was that the Patriots playoff game you were talking about?  They are awesome this year and may get their revenge against the Giants.

I am after some critique: is there anything glaring that I am not doing correctly? Anything you would do differently? I understand that Malnatis may not use semolina, but is there something that might make it more authentic as it applies to that pizzeria? Any feedback appreciated.

Everything looked great.  While maybe only important to me, here are a couple of things that I do differently.  I would never use my convection oven feature for the entire bake.  Sometime near the end to "brown up" the top a bit.  Convection is just hot blown air and it cooks up the top outside faster than the inside of the pizza oftentimes, which I haven't found desireable.  And I don't think it heats the bottom of the pan as well as a deck or other ovens would.

I would crimp the edge of the pizza a little more, esp. pushing it further up the sides, maybe even right before putting it into the oven, altho one's fingers may get messy but what the heck.  We're after a good tasting crust.  And I use finely grated cheese on top as almost the last ingredient (next to basil/oregano).  Yours looked like shredded cheese.  Finely grated cheese is what is traditionally used, but who the heck cares.  It's all good anyway, right?

These small differences are insignificant and it appears you did a great job.  So if you ever want to try what I suggest, its up to you, but you already have it all together it seems.  

Long ago I came across a source that claimed Malnati's crust had a small amount of semolina as part of the flour blend.  And that's what got me started with experimenting with it.  I do it both ways oftentimes just for variety.  Check out Ed's website and his recipe, too, and try it out (http://www.realdeepdish.com).  Good luck with your future Chicago Style experiences.  I see that you are a veteran of sorts of many different styles, so you'll adapt well easily, I'm sure.

                                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 25, 2012, 04:13:28 PM
Skunker, I've been thinking a bit about the picture of your pizza.  While it doesn't look too bad, a char is often times desired among gourmet pizza connoisseurs.  And I do like a "chunkier" tomato sauce than you used (but strangely generally hate chunky sauces . . . strange, I know).  But viewing your picture, it just appears way too "full" of ingredients (cheese and whatever).  What was the depth of the pan?  While I'm not certain, suggest to cut back a lot on the ingredient contents just as an experiment.  Who knows, you may be real happy with the results. 

Mine and Ed's examples in photos on this site show the top of the edge or rim of the deep dish pizza to be a quarter to a half an inch higher (or even higher) than the pizza contents, but yours appears to be a real "full" equivalent height.  It may be just optics.  But still, it appears you did a beautiful job and you will do even much better in just a little time.  Thanks for sharing.

                                                                                                    --BTB

Add -- I unfortunately tend to focus only on the contents of the pizza crusts and don't give much information on the amount and/or weight of the other ingredients.  I always left that to readers thinking and conclusions and while I still will do that, I think I have to focus a little more on the amount of ingredients to put on top of that great pizza crust that we all work so very hard on.  The crust is the most important part, but . . . there are some other important parts, too.  But the edges of the pizza in your photo seemed to show a nice "flaky" edged crust, which many would consider highly desirable.  Did it taste as good as it looked?   
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 26, 2012, 10:41:29 AM
This is just to further illustrate what I mean about the pizza being "full" of ingredients above.  The picture below is from Malnati's website.  Note especially how tall the edge or rim is over the contents of the ingredients in the middle of the pizza.  I think Skunker's example was overly "full" of whatever contents there were, . . . or the edge of the crust wasn't pushed up high enough . . . or the pan was not a very high one.  Suggest a traditional 2" deep pan.  Just a thought as we're all looking for getting the best out of our pizzamaking, right?

                                                                                        --BTB      ;D
Add -- the pizza crusts served at Malnati's great restaurants are usually always darker or browner than those illustrated on their websites and marketing literature.  I guess the lighter crust color is presumed to be better for marketing purposes, but I assure you that a little browner coloring is most highly desired.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 26, 2012, 10:53:52 AM
This is just to further illustrate what I mean about the pizza being "full" of ingredients above.  The picture below is from Malnati's website.  Note especially how tall the edge or rim is over the contents of the ingredients in the middle of the pizza.  I think Skunker's example was overly "full" of whatever contents there were, . . . or the edge of the crust wasn't pushed up very high . . . or the pan was not a very high one.  Suggest a traditional 2" deep pan.  Just a thought as we're all looking for getting the best out of our pizzamaking, right?

                                                                                        --BTB      ;D

Skunker, It looks like you may be using a pie pan instead of a cake pan.
I've found that 9" pie pans are not the best for these recipes; they are very slanted and don't have very high rims.
You more than likely will have to reduce the amount of ingredients you use compared to a larger straight sided pan.
Try a 9" cake pan next time if you must make a pizza that small. I like the heavy duty dark non-stick wilton pans, like the kind I used in my toaster oven:

http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/02-12-toaster-oven-deep-dish-food-pr0n/ (http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/02-12-toaster-oven-deep-dish-food-pr0n/)


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 26, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
Never thought of some of the things that Ed mentioned above.  I love to make great pies (i.e. apple, lemon, etc),  . . . and I do.  But I would never use a regular pie pan for a pizza . .  eh . . pie.  Too slanted or tapered, I think.  While some tapered pans are . . . OK, or  . . . alright, too tapered a pan -- like most of my regular real pie pans -- are not . . . eh . .  good.  I have one or two tapered deep dish pizza pans, but they are definitely not as tapered as my regular pie pans.  I think the larger tapered pans can work, but I would be hesitant to use them, esp. if shiny colored.

Ed, I hadn't the foggiest idea that you used a "toaster oven."  That surprises me a little.  But as I said before, there is more than one way to "skin a cat."  Opps, . . . there goes my cat again hiding under the bed!

                                                                                  --BTB              :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 26, 2012, 11:16:32 AM

Ed, I hadn't the foggiest idea that you used a "toaster oven."  That surprises me a little.  But as I said before, there is more than one way to "skin a cat."  Opps, . . . there goes my cat again hiding under the bed!

                                                                                  --BTB              :-D

Yeah, I was messing with toaster oven deep dish when my oven was out of commission.
The story of that is here: http://www.realdeepdish.com/2011/04-10-new-year-new-oven-plus-pizza-food-pr0n/

 :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 26, 2012, 11:20:32 AM
Guys,
 I'm using a deep dish 9" CHicago Metallic pizza pan from here: http://www.akitchen.com/store/product221.html

You're saying that you recommend a straight sided pan instead of this one?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 26, 2012, 11:32:12 AM
Guys,
 I'm using a deep dish 9" CHicago Metallic pizza pan from here: http://www.akitchen.com/store/product221.html

You're saying that you recommend a straight sided pan instead of this one?

OK, a slanted Chicago Metallic is a bit better than a typical pie pan, but yes, a straight sided pan will probably help you with the ingredient overflow problem unless you cut back on some ingredients to compensate.
http://www.chicagometallicbakeware.com/ProductDetail/CakeAndPiePans/54/chicagometallic_9inchroundcakepan.aspx (http://www.chicagometallicbakeware.com/ProductDetail/CakeAndPiePans/54/chicagometallic_9inchroundcakepan.aspx)

It's also possible that you might just have too much dough in there.

I've found that the conversions to smaller pizzas sometimes leave you with a little more dough than you need.
Pizza is very much a trial and error sport. Keep adjusting until you get what you're looking for, then try to remember what you did so you can repeat it for the next time. :-)


This a a pic of a 9" Chicago Metallic Cake pan that I linked to above:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 26, 2012, 11:38:51 AM
That's a beautiful looking pan, Skunker.  I just prefer 2" straight-sided, but I think you will do well with that one.  It doesn't look too tapered at all.  I would just suggest to press and crimp the crust up the unlubricated pan sides all the way to the top of the pan (which is only 1.5") and maybe even slightly higher (cause it will contract over the baking cycle).  But the pan's description sounded interesting and its a good brand.  Please let us know how it turns out.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 26, 2012, 11:51:34 AM
It's also possible that you might just have too much dough in there.
Regarding the amount of the dough in the recipe to use, I've experienced that at least 1/4th the time (or more) that I have too much dough for the pan.  That "feeling" only comes with experience, I'm afraid.  So I just cut off the excess, throw it into a zip bag and into the refrigerator for use with a small thin crust pizza later.  Don't ever feel you have to use all the dough.  Trust your instincts.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dellavecchia on January 26, 2012, 12:51:01 PM
While maybe only important to me, here are a couple of things that I do differently...

BTB - Thanks so much for the insight, I really appreciate it. On my next attempt I will get pre-grated pecorino - I used my micro plane above and it comes out in shreds. And I will crimp the edges so they are higher and thinner, more like your pizzas and the ones I have seen online from Malnati's. And no convection!

I will post pics this weekend.

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 26, 2012, 12:59:54 PM
Hey, great John.  Am anxious to hear if some of my suggestions worked out good for you.  Ideas and various thoughts are what makes this site interesting and useful for everyone.    --BTB            :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 26, 2012, 07:59:32 PM

 
The formulation for both pizzas was as follows, each differing only in the flour blend.
 
Flour Blend (100%):  206.59 g  |  7.29 oz | 0.46 lbs
Water (45%):  92.96 g  |  3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.8%):  1.65 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.07 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  24.79 g | 0.87 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.51 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Total (172.3%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
The flour blend in the first pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g) and 20% semolina (41.4 g).  The flour blend in the second pizza had 80% KAAP (approx. 165.6 g), 12% semolina (24.8 g), and 8% rice flour (16.5 g).  The butter in each was added at the last moment in the mixing cycle and was very soft, but not melted.  ADY was a little more than the .6% that I normally use. And each pan had roughly a Tbsp of OO in each.

                                                                                     --BTB


BTB, I'm assuming that when you make the dough, you put all those above ingredients into the mix at once or do you mix for a while and then gradually add some of those into it?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 27, 2012, 08:48:05 AM
While I think I read here that the pros start with the wet ingredients first, my technique has been to put all the dry ingredients (flour blend, salt, sugar) together in a bowl first and just whisk together.  Then the ADY that has fermented with a little of the total water (at 110 degrees) for about 10 minutes.  Then the rest of the water and mix it with a wooden spoon.  Then the oils and after a brief spoon mix, I mix it roughly by hand basically just trying to bring the dough all together and then knead it in my hands for about 30 seconds.  Be careful not to over knead, or your dough may get more of a bread texture, which is not good generally.
 
And that recipe was for each of the 9" pizzas (only the flour blend might vary).  So each dough ball should weigh somewhere near 356 grams.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 28, 2012, 08:01:46 PM
Hi all,
 Did my 3rd attempt following the BTB recipe on post #488 of this thread but using the oven temp and time direction from the realdeepdish.com recipe. I used a 9" pan at 450 for 35mins. The dough was kneaded for 35secs and then left covered in a bowl for 6hrs at room temp. The results: Better taste overall this time around. I used 6n1 for the sauce. The mozzarella still did not really impress me...I am using a Walmart sliced mozzarella (part skim). Next time I will use half mozz and half provolone. The 6n1 was good...but to be honest, I felt it should be sweeter. Oh yea, the crust began to char about 15mins before the cooking time was supposed to end. I still need to tweak things.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 28, 2012, 08:03:22 PM
here is the final:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 28, 2012, 08:06:07 PM
Hi all,
 Did my 3rd attempt following the BTB recipe on post #488 of this thread but using the oven temp and time direction from the realdeepdish.com recipe. I used a 9" pan at 450 for 35mins. The dough was kneaded for 35secs and then left covered in a bowl for 6hrs at room temp. The results: Better taste overall this time around. I used 6n1 for the sauce. The mozzarella still did not really impress me...I am using a Walmart sliced mozzarella (part skim). Next time I will use half mozz and half provolone. The 6n1 was good...but to be honest, I felt it should be sweeter. Oh yea, the crust began to char about 15mins before the cooking time was supposed to end. I still need to tweak things.

Taste your sauce before you put it on your pizza. If it's not sweet enough before you put it in, stir in a bit of sugar until it tastes right to you.

Looking at that pre-bake photo, it looks like you are using too much sauce.

The post-bake photo looks mighty good!

If the charring starts to happen, cover the top of the pizza loosely with a sheet of aluminum foil for the rest of the baking time.

Also, for smaller pizzas, you might not need to bake them so long.
You could probably bake a 9" pizza in 25 to 30 minutes.

 :pizza: :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on January 28, 2012, 08:13:50 PM
Taste your sauce before you put it on your pizza. If it's not sweet enough before you put it in, stir in a bit of sugar until it tastes right to you.

Looking at that pre-bake photo, it looks like you are using too much sauce.

The post-bake photo looks mighty good!

If the charring starts to happen, cover the top of the pizza loosely with a sheet of aluminum foil for the rest of the baking time.

Also, for smaller pizzas, you might not need to bake them so long.
You could probably bake a 9" pizza in 25 to 30 minutes.

 :pizza: :chef: :pizza:

Hi Vcb,
 Never thanked you for your website, but it has been a huge help!

Yes, I think I need to do two things next time: lessen the sauce and decrease the baking time. I have Polly-o coming in next week to a local store. Either way, I have leftovers! Thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on January 28, 2012, 08:28:53 PM
Hi Vcb,
 Never thanked you for your website, but it has been a huge help!

Yes, I think I need to do two things next time: lessen the sauce and decrease the baking time. I have Polly-o coming in next week to a local store. Either way, I have leftovers! Thanks.

I'm glad you like my site. It's still a work in progress, but my goal is to try making Deep Dish more approachable to the home cook.
I'd probably still be in the dark about deep dish if I hadn't found the great people who contribute their trials and experiences in this Pizzamaking.com Chicago Style forum.  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on January 29, 2012, 12:46:10 PM
Skunker, it is sometimes a little tough to assess in a couple of photographs about the quality of the pizza that one did.  But at first blush, yours looked pretty good.  I, too, got an initial impression that you used too much sauce, but sometimes that first impression is wrong, esp. upon viewing the second photograph.  And some of mine have not looked too dissimilar.  For a 9" diameter deep dish pizza, I think I use somewhere near 1/2 a 28 oz. can of 6 in 1's, which would be around 14 ozs., but I never weigh that as I just try to cover the pizza as I think needed to be made.  And instead of using it all, I love to add some additional pieces of "chunky" tomatoes to get close to the real Chicago Style deep dish pizza.
 
I and my tasters would love your pizza based on the photos as we love a little well done pizza.  And yours looked good to me.  But Ed's suggestion on the sheet of aluminum foil is a real good one as well as adding a tsp or two of sugar to the sauce (maybe even some brown sugar).  In some respects, yours looked great, so I'll just suggest that sometimes the next one that you do, may not be as good in some respects as the prior one.  The difficult part will be . . . which aspect was better or worse than the other . . . so I can improve or duplicate what I previously did.  Have fun and enjoy making great pizzas.
 
But again, great job and I hope you and yours enjoyed the pizza.
 
                                                                                          --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mugwump on February 05, 2012, 04:24:46 AM
All praise to BTB, without whom my pizzas would be less than praiseworthy!

I can't seem to crack a few topics mentioned in this thread:

1. Sauce.  The Lou Malnati's can of tomatoes they sell in their restaurants around Chicago is the final word in deep dish pizza tomatoes.  It's the perfect chunky-to-sauce ratio.  But I can't seem to replicate it -- 6 in 1 is certainly not it!  That's more like a tomato paste, not chunky Deep Dish. 

But adding stewed tomatoes to 6 in 1 makes it quite watery.  Squishing the tomatoes and draining them removes the chunkiness, too. The best tasting stewed tomatoes were some D.O.P. San Marizanos mixed in with 6 in 1, but boy did that turn out watery even with 15 minutes of draining!

2.  Dough.  The best Lou Malnati's order is at 4:30pm, before the rush begins, when everything is plentiful fresh to order and the crust is sour from using the oldest dough first.  Burt's Pizza in Morton Grove is all about the sour crust, too.  But that sour fermentation is still so elusive to achieve.  I have thrown a ziploc bag of dough into the fridge for up to a week to try and get that fermented sour dough taste, and I think 2-3 days achieves it the best, but still it is lacking.

Was there ever any consensus about the type of flour to achieve the most fermentation?  King Arthur All Purpose seems serviceable and is popular around this forum, but I'm not sure what will do the trick.

3.  Cheese.  Lately I've been doing blocks of Polly-O and Trader Joe's whole milk mozzarella.  Funny that Polly-O simply does not exist anywhere in the Chicagoland area, when the kraft headquarters is there.  I have located it at an italian market / deli here in Los Angeles, and it's not bad.  The Trader Joe's whole milk mozz is also smooth.  Neither of them, including Boar's Head, get those impossibly long melted strands that is the trademark of a deep Pizza Pie.  Next I will just do the local California supermarket Lucerne mozzarella brand that has extreme melting ability but perhaps salty taste.

Okay, well sorry to dump a number of issues in one posting.  I've been lurking here for quite a while.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on February 05, 2012, 09:01:47 AM
All praise to BTB, without whom my pizzas would be less than praiseworthy!

I can't seem to crack a few topics mentioned in this thread:

1. Sauce.  The Lou Malnati's can of tomatoes they sell in their restaurants around Chicago is the final word in deep dish pizza tomatoes.  It's the perfect chunky-to-sauce ratio.  But I can't seem to replicate it -- 6 in 1 is certainly not it!  That's more like a tomato paste, not chunky Deep Dish.  

But adding stewed tomatoes to 6 in 1 makes it quite watery.  Squishing the tomatoes and draining them removes the chunkiness, too. The best tasting stewed tomatoes were some D.O.P. San Marizanos mixed in with 6 in 1, but boy did that turn out watery even with 15 minutes of draining!


Agreed that the 6n1s alone will not give you what you are looking for, but by adding a bit of Glen Muir Diced Tomatoes (Basil and Garlic) it comes pretty close, imho. BTB also mentioned that is what he uses. As for the soggyness, are you draining the puree/tomatoes before placing them on your pie? Also, check out this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17557.0.html
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 07, 2012, 07:10:32 PM
Thanks, MW.  The Malnalti's sauce is incredibly good and I stockpiled my supply from late last summer when last in Chicago.  Some of the alternatives talked about here are close.  Pastines has increased their product lines and are very good, also.  But some small diced tomatoes (from a good brand) are often advisable as an add.  I think stewed tomatoes may become too mushy.  The diced tomatoes over the 20 to 40 minutes of oven baking get thoroughly cooked making stewed tomatoes unnecessary IMO. And they taste just like those at Malnati's in many ways.

I was a regular at Burt's Pequod's when he owned it.  But his crust was and is much more of a Sicilian crust IMHO . . .  very good, but not typical classic Chicago Style deep dish. 

Flour consensus, no, we are still searching for the best flour for Chicago Style.  I still love KAAP, but others have been suggested some other brands.  VCB has talked about Ceresota, but I don't find it where I'm at.  I think we need to look at and experiment a lot more with different types and brands of flour, tho.

I can't say that in the 4 or 5 years that I've become a pizzamaker that there is a hands down best mozzarella cheese brand out there, except I have a little preference for Polly-O.  When I previously lived in the Chicago North suburbs, I was introduced to that brand at Sam's Club.  But I have not recently seen it at any Sam's in Florida or Michigan that I now frequent.  They may have parted the ways over -- what else -- money.  Many think Polly-O is just an ordinary Kraft brand, but they have only in the last few years been bought by Kraft and so far have maintained a very good separate distinct taste and identity. 

And finally, you mentioned some problems about . . .
. . . get those impossibly long melted strands that is the trademark of a deep Pizza Pie.
I have no idea (LOL) what you could possibly be talking about . . . .
                                                                                                           --BTB        :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on February 07, 2012, 07:40:01 PM
Flour consensus, no, we are still searching for the best flour for Chicago Style.  I still love KAAP, but others have been suggested some other brands.  VCB has talked about Ceresota, but I don't find it where I'm at.  

If you can't find Ceresota or Heckers all-purpose flour near you, sometimes you can find a store brand with the same ingredient ratios. I recently picked up Roundy's brand from Mariano's Fresh Market and it had the same ratios as the Ceresota they had next to it, and it was a buck cheaper.

Here's a shot of the labels from two different all-purpose flours:
Ceresota is on the right.
I think the one on the left was Pillsbury.

Compare the Total Carbohydrate number and the distribution of the carb/fiber/sugar below that number.
It leads me to believe that the ratio of "wheat flour" to "malted barley flour" may be slightly different in the Ceresota than the other major brands. OR... This could all not mean a whole lot, since each flour manufacturer can choose what they consider a "serving size", and Pillsbury thinks 1/4 cup of their flour weighs 31 grams
while Ceresota thinks a 1/4 cup of their flour weighs only 30g.

The important takeaway from this is that if you are looking at generic or store brands,
odds are good they didn't go out of their way to change the nutrition labels from what their supplier gave them.
So, if the ingredient label looks identical to Ceresota, it probably is Ceresota, or is the same or similar formulation.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on February 07, 2012, 07:54:00 PM
Many think Polly-O is just an ordinary Kraft brand, but they have only in the last few years been bought by Kraft and so far have maintained a very good separate distinct taste and identity. 

BTB,

Polly-O was purchased by Kraft in 1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly-O).

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on February 08, 2012, 11:41:11 AM
Thanks to BTB for the great recipe!  And I also have to give additional thanks to everyone on this thread (yep, I read the whole thing, and no, I'm not a masochist but a pizza obsessive!).

After hunting down semolina flour, sold in bulk at the hippie store (really, the American South isn't just a pizza wasteland but a grocery wasteland, too), I was able to make this for Superbowl Sunday.  Did a 12" with spinach, onions, mushrooms, bell pepper, and half had sausage also. (With all those veggies--sauteed first--I added a little bit of shredded colby jack for ballast.) Turned out AMAZING!

I can say this without qualification: it was the best deep dish I've ever eaten.  I realize that's a bold statement (pun intended), but it's true.

One thing I did differently from BTB's recipe is that I used Ed's (vcb's) dough weight.  After having made his recipe first, a while back, I couldn't imagine wanting a crust 50% thicker, which is what BTB's recipe would call for.  So for a 12" pie, I had 400 g of dough (and 225 g for a 9" pie).  It was perfect.  So well balanced.  This is definitely a keeper.  I will make this again, with this exact formulation, weight, everything.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dellavecchia on February 08, 2012, 01:17:35 PM
Garvey - fantastic deep dish. I like that you layered the cheese slices up the side. I will have to try that.

John
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on February 08, 2012, 01:48:09 PM
Thanks, John.  I had to do the cheese on the sides like that to give the edge some structure.  Otherwise, the dough kept wanting to sink back down a bit.  It tastes good that way, too, and keeps the rim high and tight.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on February 11, 2012, 05:29:29 PM
Hi all,
 This is attempt #5 and probably one of the last I make for the quarter. I'm happy with the results!

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p1.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p3.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p2.jpg

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on February 11, 2012, 05:31:56 PM
Hi all,
 This is attempt #5 and probably one of the last I make for the quarter. I'm happy with the results!

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p1.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p3.jpg

http://i464.photobucket.com/albums/rr2/dosstx/p2.jpg



wow, that's a lot of gooey cheese!
what kind did you use and how much?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on February 11, 2012, 09:07:18 PM
Excellent looking pizza skunker!  Any leftovers?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on February 12, 2012, 01:01:32 AM
wow, that's a lot of gooey cheese!
what kind did you use and how much?

I used about 1.5 layers of POLLY-O WHOLE MILK MOZZ and about 3-4 slices of Provolone (from local store). If I could build this pizza over again, I would use just a tad less of cheese and a tad bit more of sauce.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on February 12, 2012, 01:05:37 AM
Excellent looking pizza skunker!  Any leftovers?

I actually have the whole pizza (minus a slice) left over because I made it for my brother to take back to his apartment. Tomorow, I make one for my dad to take back to my mom. Depending on amount of left over ingredients, I will try to squeeze out one more final pizza for myself and that is all for a while! I enjoyed the pizza making experience have hooked several of my co-workers on the pizza making experience. I work in a military office and have several young junior airmen showing me their iPhone photos of the various pizzas they made over the weekend. It brings the office together.

Thanks all,
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on February 12, 2012, 02:06:04 AM
I actually have the whole pizza (minus a slice) left over because I made it for my brother to take back to his apartment. Tomorow, I make one for my dad to take back to my mom. Depending on amount of left over ingredients, I will try to squeeze out one more final pizza for myself and that is all for a while! I enjoyed the pizza making experience have hooked several of my co-workers on the pizza making experience. I work in a military office and have several young junior airmen showing me their iPhone photos of the various pizzas they made over the weekend. It brings the office together.

Thanks all,


I too have become the pizza fanatic.  After finding this site i was baking at least one pie/day for 3 months straight.  Sometimes even 3 pies per day!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on February 12, 2012, 08:29:56 AM
Beautiful looking pizza, Skunker.  And we love the way you crimped the pizza edge, too.  What kind of cheese, tomatoes, etc.  And why the last for a quarter . . . is that like in 25 cents?   :-D   --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on February 18, 2012, 12:03:51 PM
I got to make one more pizza...sister is here in town.

I plan to use uncooked bratwurst sausage this time (Johnsonville). I don't have a pizza stone. I plan to cook the pizza at about 430-450degrees for about 30mins or so.

Should I pre-cook the sausage or just place it on raw on the cheese in as thin a manhole cover as possible? Concerned about a soggy pizza.....thanks.

And BTB, I used polly-o for the cheese anad 6n1 for the sauce (with diced from Glen Muir).
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on February 18, 2012, 01:35:38 PM
I got to make one more pizza...sister is here in town.

I plan to use uncooked bratwurst sausage this time (Johnsonville). I don't have a pizza stone. I plan to cook the pizza at about 430-450degrees for about 30mins or so.

Should I pre-cook the sausage or just place it on raw on the cheese in as thin a manhole cover as possible? Concerned about a soggy pizza.....thanks.

And BTB, I used polly-o for the cheese anad 6n1 for the sauce (with diced from Glen Muir).

A pizza stone is preferred if you have one, but it's not a dealbreaker. You can still get a great pizza without one.
I usually preheat my oven to 500 degrees, then turn it down and bake between 450-475, but everyone's oven is different.
Tomatoes are usually the main culprit for sogginess, so drain the 6-in1 tomatoes for 10-30 minutes before you use them.
Raw sausage is best for deep dish. I would recommend using italian sausage over bratwurst, or you may not get the flavor you're looking for.
Depending on your sausage, you may get a bit of grease accumulation as well, so yes, a thin or sparse layer is probably best.

Also, try to resist cutting into your pizza until 5-10 minutes after you remove it from the oven, so it can set-up a bit. That can help reduce the pizza sogginess a bit.

And then, of course, you can always employ some paper towels to soak up some of the grease/liquid if you see some puddling.  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: penmuse on March 03, 2012, 08:19:46 AM
I am going to try you recipe.  Your pizza looks great.  How do you get the pie out of the pan in one piece?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 03, 2012, 11:55:59 AM
I am going to try you recipe.  Your pizza looks great.  How do you get the pie out of the pan in one piece?
Thanks, Pen.  Extracting the deep dish pizza out of the pan can get a little tricky.  You know, of course, that at Malnati's restaurants and other great classic Chicago deep dish pizzerias that they just cut right in the pan and serve it that way.  But our good pans that we get for home use would get pretty damaged over time if we did that, but many home pizzamakers just use the shiny, silver-like pans and cut their deep dish pizzas right in them.  I prefer to extract the pizza out of the pan, tho, rather than damaging a good coated pan.  

I generally don't have much of a problem with my 6" to 9" pans.  10" to 12" pans get a little trickier, but I've gotten pretty good at it.  14" pans - the largest size I bake in -- present the biggest challenge of all.  Advise to get several different kinds of spatulas.  I first use a "frosting" spatula to move all around the pizza to loosen it from the pan (in case it gets stuck somehow in the baking cycle, which often may happen).  Then I use another spatula, the size of which depends on the size of the pan.  For 12" to 14" I would most often use a "pancake" size spatula -- often first using a medium size spatula to gently pick up the pizza in the pan to insert the larger pancake spatula under the crust.  Since I'm right handed, I would hold the pan in my left hand (either with a pan gripper or oven glove), get a spatula under the baked pizza, tilt the pan a little over a cutting board, and slide the whole pizza off onto the cutting board.

I know there are some videos out there showing Malnati's employees throwing the pizza up in the air slightly, then pulling the pan out of the way and letting the pizza drop onto a piece of cardboard or what-not, but I have not mastered that risky technique.  If others have any suggestions, please feel free to add your thoughts.

                                                                                       --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PaultheThird on March 03, 2012, 12:00:21 PM
BTB
Greetings sir.  Its been a while and I am about to put together a dough and need a little help.  I am a little confused on the ADY and on how you put it together.  Do you take a portion of the water from the dough calc., heat that up, and add your ADY to that to proof? 
I seem to remember the last time I made the dough, I added some of the sugar to the water and proofed the ADY that way.  It seemed to come out ok but I am curious if the way you described doing it does something different.  Can you please run back through how you proof ADY?

Thank you sir.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PaultheThird on March 03, 2012, 12:02:26 PM
One other quick one.  The dough is for tonight so no time to put in fridge.  How many times would you recommend I let the dough rise and punch down?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 03, 2012, 12:42:11 PM
Hey Paul 3, you are very polite and respectful, but you can forget the sir on this website.  Yes, I do take a portion of the water from the dough calculation and put it into a shot glass, warm the water slightly in the microwave to approx. 100 to 110 degree F (I use a thermometer to "roughly" verify that -- too hot may kill the yeast -- but it cools off fast), then to the shot glass portion I add the fractional estimate of the ADY (usually in fractions of a teaspoon and don't worry about being exactly accurate) into the warmed water, mix it up with the rod base of the thermometer, and set my timer for 10 minutes.  The yeast in the shot glass must then show that it has fermented and foamed up.  Otherwise, throw it away and get some more yeast packages (rarely that happens, but sometimes . . . ).

I used to add a pinch of sugar, but haven't done so in recent times.  Some think it helps, but I hadn't found it to do much, but wouldn't discourage it.  And if you are going to use "same day" dough, just skip the refrigerator entirely and leave it on a warm part of the counter and let the dough rise once or twice (and only if time, a third time), but it's somewhat relative. As you know, many of us have made some great deep dish pizzas in the "same day" dough mode.

One tip back on the water, use either slightly more than the recipe calls for (like4.2 oz rather then 4 oz) or if using a measured glass with the ounces indicated, wet it first and pour it out because some of the water (or oil) remains behind and doesn't really get into the dough mixture much.

Good luck and I hope things turn out well.

                                                                                            --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 04, 2012, 11:21:48 AM
Below to show what I meant about the shot glass use.   ;D   After using it for the ADY, I . . . ah . . . wash it out in hot soapy water and a further rinse. Then I often am inclined to add maybe a little scotch afterwards to best clean the . . . eh  . . . glass (hic!).  The scotch somehow magically disappears.   :'(

                                                                           --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Rich on March 26, 2012, 02:06:49 AM
I apologize for not remembering my source on this but I am pretty sure that Malnati's and other deep dish joints use Tin Plated Steel pans.  I'm going to Burt's next week for my birthday, so I can ask the man himself what he uses (if I get the chance!).  He has up to 18 or 20" deep dish pans.  But you shouldn't go larger than 12" on a deep dish if you want the crust to stay in optimal shape due to moisture.

Since I have a Malnati's 2 minutes from my house, Pequod's, Burt's, Pizano's, and a Gino's East 15-20 minutes away, I must confess that I don't bother making deep dish at home.  All your pictures look great, and I get excited to try your recipes, but why bother, when I have the real thing?  I assume most of you live elsewhere, which is why you have no other choice.  But I have no idea because so many of you don't list where you live.  


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Rich on March 26, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
This is just to further illustrate what I mean about the pizza being "full" of ingredients above.  The picture below is from Malnati's website.  Note especially how tall the edge or rim is over the contents of the ingredients in the middle of the pizza.  I think Skunker's example was overly "full" of whatever contents there were, . . . or the edge of the crust wasn't pushed up high enough . . . or the pan was not a very high one.  Suggest a traditional 2" deep pan.  Just a thought as we're all looking for getting the best out of our pizzamaking, right?

                                                                                        --BTB      ;D
Add -- the pizza crusts served at Malnati's great restaurants are usually always darker or browner than those illustrated on their websites and marketing literature.  I guess the lighter crust color is presumed to be better for marketing purposes, but I assure you that a little browner coloring is most highly desired.
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this BTB.  I have gone through stretches where I've eaten Malnati's every week for months and the crust is never that dark.  It's almost always light in color like the pictures on their site.  You know I ain't making this up because my Deep Dish Dough Malnati's loyalty card looks really beat up! ;)  Sure there can be times when it's darker, but not that much.  It's usually on the light side.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on March 29, 2012, 08:06:03 AM
Giving this another go later today around lunchtime.  I've been craving some Lous.  Dough has been in the fridge for about 18 hours and i got my hands on some Lou's tomatoes and can't wait to give them a try.  I'll be sure to post some pics.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on March 29, 2012, 12:31:36 PM
Here are the pics as promised.  My previous attempt was with the 20% Semolina and it was cooked directly on a preheated stone at 450 for 23mins.  For my next attempt I went with a 9 inch with 25% semolina, w/melted butter.  Put in fridge for 24hours straight from the mixing bowl.  I cooked it directly on the 2nd rack from the bottom at 435F for 32mins (did not use convection).  It was outstanding.

However I had a few issues though with the crust and wanted to see if BTB could chime in.  My finished crust had a crumbly (or overly flaky?)/sandy feel to it.  Is this because of the high Semolina content?  Don't get me wrong it tasted excellent, it just seemed very fragile and was falling apart in certain places.

The top rim of the crust also sank down a little while baking so I will need to bring it up about another 1/4 inch for next time.  

For cheese I used 75% Mozz (50/50 whole/part skim milk) and 25% prov.  About 8oz in all (will go with 12oz next time)  Parm on top.

The Lou Malnatis tomatoes were out of this world good.  If I had known they were like the real deal i would have bought them months ago.  I got 3 cans for only $5 too because of the expiration dates.  I was a bit too heavy on the sauce and will go with only 10oz next time.  

I can honestly say if I were blindfolded I would have a VERY HARD time differentiating which was the real Lous. It was that damn good!




Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on March 29, 2012, 12:52:34 PM
And more to keep your mouth watering...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 30, 2012, 11:16:22 AM
Pythonic, the pictures of your pizza looked absolutely delicious and I would have loved to dive into a piece of two of it.  A little "flaky" is often thought of as highly desirable, but too crumbly probably would not.  I've never made one that was crumbly as you described and as one or two photos seem to show.  And it should not tend to fall apart a little as you described.  In any event, your pizza stilled looked great.  I love that texture in a way.

Let me think out loud a bit regarding the crumble question.  It could be because it is too dry with either not enough water or oil.  It could be because of too high a protein flour (which would absorb the hydration more and make it drier).  It possibly could be that it was not mixed enough and too much flour remained unincorporated (even tho the "mixing" time should be short, like just 30 or 60 seconds).  Hope it wasn't too much bench flour.  Melted butter?  Probably not, as it adds some water to the mixture.  I'm finding using very softened butter added at the last point with just slightly incorporating the butter really does a nice job, but melted is fine, too.  (I know Malnati's uses melted, but in the home oven environment we have to do things a little differently).

My target for semolina is 20% but so many have reported back to me that they love a level of from 25 to 50%.  If your brand or bag of semolina is too coarse you may want to try putting some through the food processor a bit to make it a little more finer, but usually most brands are good as is.  And I trust you let the dough get up to room temperature after taking it out of the refrigerator.

The top rim of the crust usually does shrink down a bit during its bake, so I most often try to make the crust edge crimped as high as I can in the pan (even to the top).  And even increase the recipe a little -- sometimes adding a 5 or 6% bowl residue factor so I have enough dough to tightly "press, crimp and pinch" the dough up the sides of the pan.  BTW, your pictures showed that you did an outstanding job on crimping the edge of the pizza against the sides of the pan.  That's the way true Chicago Style Deep Dish Pizza is meant to be.  And it does taste much better that way.

The cheeses that you used sounded very good.  I would guess around 10 or 11 ounces for a 9" pizza is about right, but others like more or less.  And of the several groups of taste testers that I have, about half love a lot of crushed tomatoes and the other half would prefer a lesser amount, so it depends so much on preference.  Of the incredibly large number of times that I've eaten at Malnati's home restaurant there in Lincolnwood, they always have a large amount of their great crushed tomatoes on top of their delicious pizzas.  Some of their other restaurants, however, do things a little differently.  I still have several cans of those great Malnati's tomatoes and consider them, too, to be among the best in the business.

Again, I am just super impressed with your pictures and can't help but believe it tasted every bit as good as it looks. Thanks for sharing your experience and pizza success with us.

                                                                                     --BTB       :chef:

Edit - Just had an after thought.  Are you proportionately calculating separately with the pizza calculation tool the amount of AP flour and the semolina flour?  You should not use the semolina ingredient space in the deep-dish pizza dough calculator, but instead just calculate the proportions of the flour ingredient.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on March 30, 2012, 01:18:28 PM
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this BTB.  I have gone through stretches where I've eaten Malnati's every week for months and the crust is never that dark.  It's almost always light in color like the pictures on their site. It's usually on the light side.
I respectfully disagree with you too, Rich, but since our starting points are different, it's of no importance anyway.  I used to lunch and dine at the home of Lou Malnati's original restaurant in Lincolnwood while he was still living.  I made special effort to get to his restaurant as I was a great lover of Due's pizzas at which he was a major contributor and just had to follow his great "brand" to his first restaurant.  I worked just a few miles from the original Lincolnwood Malnati's "starship" pizzeria and ate lunch and dinner there at least 3 to 4 times a month for 30 years or more.  It would be a rare time, indeed, for me and my co-pizza lovers to receive a light, golden colored crusted pizza, not that such would be bad, but . . . just unusual in "my experience."  It seems common place to you as you expressed, I know.  
 
I shared my experience earlier at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8921.msg77312.html#msg77312.  Can you share your photos with us?  And I was often a customer at the Elk Grove Village, Buffalo Grove, Wells St. and close-in Lincoln Avenue Malnati's restaurants for many years, too.  Somewhere on this site are many pictures of the great pizzas that I enjoyed at those restaurants.  And rarely were they the light colored crusts that you experienced and that you believe were common place there. Not so in my experience is all I'm saying.

Like the "leopard" black spots on many of the great Neoplitan pizzas, the partially dark or black spots are often the most desirable of the pieces of pizza.  In a way, that's how many of us Malnati's and Chicago Style deep dish pizza enthusiasts feel about it.  But either way, we all love it, right?

Last time at the Buffalo Grove location, here is one photo taken with a flash showing a not so light a crust color. (A Malnati's fan will definitely recognize the plate, right?)

                                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on March 30, 2012, 02:03:32 PM
BTB,

My previous attempt on post #471 yielded a more "stable" crust but the flavor on this attempt far outweighted the last.  Im thinking it was under kneaded (even with the short knead times) and that caused the crumbling.  I made another batch today and it was kneaded properly this time.  I also went with the 2hr oven rise then into the fridge.

Regarding bake temp and bake times can you please fill us in on why you decreased your temp and went with a longer bake?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 01, 2012, 11:38:22 PM
Much better results this time.  I must have under kneaded it last time because this time the crust was perfecto :)
Had a friend over who prefers "sh*t on a shingle" vs deep dish and he raved over this one.

Nathan
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 01, 2012, 11:39:00 PM
more
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 09, 2012, 11:56:26 AM
Nathan,

That there's a thing of beauty....very inspiring. I'd like to give this a go.Can you please tell me which final dough recipe you went with...thanks.

Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 09, 2012, 02:44:07 PM
Bob,

Here is the recipe I used below.  Sorry for not having the exact percentages but I just scribbled it down real fast.

Total flour - 143.01g (107g all purpose and 36g semolina flour)
Water - 63.54g
ADY - 1/4 tsp
Salt - 1/4 tsp
Sugar - 1/2 tsp
Corn oil - 17.16g
Olive oil - 8.58g
Butter (softened) - 8.58g


Nate


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: rcbaughn on April 12, 2012, 06:26:10 PM
So with the pie on the very first page, the olive oil AND corn oil are added to the dough in those percents, and the pan is slightly oiled with corn or olive oil to prevent sticking? I didn't catch that in any posts. Thanks!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on April 13, 2012, 12:10:26 AM
RCB:  yes, that is all correct.

Btw, you may want to take a look at VCB's recipe (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16859.0.html), since he gives the full procedure in a PDF.  Even if you don't use his exact formulation, it will show you the "dao of deep dish", as it were.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: rcbaughn on April 13, 2012, 01:47:46 AM
Thanks so much! I mixed up the dough with the 15% semolina post on the very first page, and man did my dough turn out oily for sure. I am a bit worried, it looks striated with oil even after a good amount of kneading, I'd say 2 minutes after the 25 minute rest. I am going to go look at that post now and see if his looks similar. Thanks a lot for the tip on that post again, much appreciation as always. Nice to have a good bunch of people to talk to. -Cory
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dwillingm on July 16, 2012, 03:09:26 PM
Next I added some drained 6 in 1 sauce to which I added Penzeys pizza spices, minced garlic, white pepper, sea salt, ginger, a good dash of honey (key ingredient) and a few pieces of small diced plum tomatoes.  I usually don't like a chunky pizza sauce at all, but strangely have come to love it in Chicago Style pizzas.  I then put on a healthy amount of grated parmesan cheese from my specialty Italian deli.  On top of that, I also added several pieces of sausage that I had left over from the links.  I baked the pizza on my pizza stone on the bottom oven rack, which I previously heated up for an hour at 475 degrees F.  I reduced the heat to around 450, turned the pizza 180 degrees after 15 minutes, put the oven's convection (fan) feature on for the last 10 minutes, and then took the pizza out after cooking for around 22 minutes.  I was going to cook it for 25 minutes, but the little pieces of sausage on top were starting to burn a bit.  See Pics below.


Hi,

For a 14" pizza, can you recommend the amounts to use for the following ingredients?

drained 6 in 1 sauce
Penzeys pizza spices
minced garlic
white pepper
sea salt
ginger (fresh?)
a good dash of honey (key ingredient)

Thanks!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 16, 2012, 04:03:36 PM
For a 14in. I would probably use around 3 cups of sauce...jus make sure you have a nice even layer about 1/4 to 1/2 in. thick.
I don't want to get in trouble with you so the additions are gonna have to be your call....I'm sure most would agree. It's YOUR pizza and YOUR tastes....but if you must have a jumping off point than the best I can tell you is to dress the empty pan with your additions, sprinkle them arond in the pan as if you were topping a baked potato....then transfere that into a bowl, mix with sauce. I just salt an pepper the sauce after I've put it on the pizza.   ;)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Milsco on July 18, 2012, 08:49:04 AM
Hey Team,

Huge thanks to the boys who have contributed and guided the group on this topic.  I had been working with Mom's old recipe which was just so far away that I don't think we'd make it to this level in 100 years of tweaking!  I'll be passing along my thanks to BTB, Loo, Pete, VCB, and the rest of you in the form of a donation to the site.

I used BTB's 6/12/6 oil formula along with his 75/18/7 flour.  Dough came together wonderfully.  Only issue was not giving the cup a coat of oil/water before taring, that's the only reason I can think of to come up 19 grams short.  90 minute proof then into the fridge overnight.

The only pan I had was a 16" pure shiny aluminum, so I gave it two rounds of seasoning.  Not sure how I pulled off the second one as the first set off the smoke alarm, woke the baby, and had the wife complaining of oil smell for the next two days.  Anyways, it's probably 1/10th of the way to the full black outside we all find at Lou's.

I used a full 28 oz crushed San Marzano + 14 oz diced Muir Glen, but kept the additives to pinches (salt, white pepper, onion powder and minced garlic) and Tbsps (honey and light brown sugar).  Think this came up flat so I may dial up seeing how BTB advises small amounts for his 9" and I am working with 16".

Laid the cheese in a "shingle pattern" to divert water away from the center, pressed in the sausage on one half, and spread the sauce.  The other side got fresh basil and paper towel pressed tomato slices.  A few sprinkles and off to the oven.

Had the oven at 500, dropped to 450 at entry.  All was going smooth until I noticed the edges of the crust browning at 15 minutes!  I threw a sheet of foil over top and dropped to 425 for the remaining time, and the sides made it pretty well, actually.  Sadly, the bottom was more crisp than I would have liked.

All in all, the "crowd" went wild and I really liked my first try.  I'd still say I am a good distance from the ultimate goal, but was thrilled with how easy this was and how close it came!

Would love to get feedback on the images of my process here (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/dxg7fpixhe6ckiw/m41jnqkna9), and a few specific questions:
1. Is getting the crust cooked right a matter of pulling the pizza frequently and checking the bottom?  Or is it just trial and error?  If trial and error, should I play with time or temp?
2. Would it make sense that my sauce seemed a bit plain given that I used 9" advice on a 16"?
3. Anyone else getting the crust sides browning up really early?
4. What is the best way to store all the flours and yeast?  I had bought yeast packets but am thinking if I just need 1 tsp maybe I should be buying a jar and fridging it?  How long do these things last?

Thanks again for your help and thanks in advance of your advice!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Bobino414 on July 20, 2012, 01:32:33 PM

I did a Chicago deep dish last night for a friend from India who never saw or heard of this style of pie.

I cobbled together a dough using the work of Ed (VCB), Loo, Nate (pythonic), and BTB.  This was the best deep dish crust I have made to date.  It had the pastry like qualities I remember from the early days at Unos.  The usual suspects were in the dough but it was the mixing that made a difference.  I discovered early on that the Bosch mixer could not properly mix the high oil/fat content of the dough.  For years I used the KA for this dough but the mix was long and the results only  so so.  This time I used a food processor with the plastic mixing blade and only pulsed 20 times.  This resulted in a bowlful of pea sized globs.  I brought it all together by hand-about 10 seconds.  This rested for about 1 hour and into the fridge overnight. The one hour rest probably isn’t needed.

Next day I let it rest for about 1 hour at room temp.  I wasn’t convinced I should do this as the small pieces of butter might melt reducing the flakiness.  Dough was rolled out and placed in a dark springform pan.  Docked. Parbaked for 4 minutes at 475. 

Each 9 inch pie was topped with 12 oz of mozz; the bottom layer was slices of homemade mozz made from Belgioioso curd.  (Note to self-only buy Polly-O curd).  The top layer of cheese was Grande whole milk.

The cheese was covered with very well drained and squeezed Nina brand tomatoes “packed somewhere near the San Marzano region in Italy.”  These are sold by Costco, cheap, but the tomatoes only fill half the can.  Tomatoes were spiced with marjoram, salt, red pepper flakes, olive oil  and basil.  One 28 oz can per pie.

Baked for 20 minutes.

Bottom line-just changing the mix method made a good pie into a really good pie.

Bob

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kellmax on July 28, 2012, 09:39:34 AM
Okay so I made two dough balls for a 12" pie, let them rise once on warm oven, punched down, covered with plastic wrap/bagged and put into the fridge-- and they have been cold fermenting in the fridge since Friday morning around 10am. My question is this-- I plan on making them tomorrow late afternoon and I am wondering if they are still good? I read conflicting posts that 48 hr cold proof/fermenting is best, then some say it is too long. Just wondering what your opinions are!
Any help?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 28, 2012, 09:50:30 AM
Usually dd doughs are used within 24 hours but I don't think you should have any problems kell. How is it behaving...doesn't sound like you used too much yeast an it's blowing up all over the place or you'd have said so....you'll  be fine, enjoy!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on July 28, 2012, 10:37:32 AM
You should be fine using your dough after 2 days in the fridge. I've made good deep dish with dough that had been in the fridge for 3 days. I wouldn't go too many days though or you might end up with beer in a ziploc. :-)

Your dough may be more flavorful and the texture of your crust may be less flaky and more crumbly than a short same-day risen dough.

I currently make my pizza dough an hour or 2 before I plan to use it and don't bother with the overnight refrigeration any more. It may just be my tastebuds, but a less fermented dough with a short rising time tastes more authentic to me.

Let us know how your dough works out for you. :-)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kellmax on July 28, 2012, 03:06:22 PM
Thank you!
The dough doesn't look too bubbly at all...it's slightly puffy...smells great,too. As long as it stays like this tomorrow I should be good.
MMM Can't wait!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: OTRChef on August 17, 2012, 09:08:19 AM
According to Lou Malnati's, the only ingredients in their crust is: flour, water, corn oil, olive oil, yeast. No butter, and at least no specific mention of semolina.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on August 17, 2012, 09:55:27 AM
According to Lou Malnati's, the only ingredients in their crust is: flour, water, corn oil, olive oil, yeast. No butter, and at least no specific mention of semolina.
When you say "according to Lou Malanti's" I assume you are referring to the ingredient listing on their frozen pizza packages.  Remember that there are dozens of different "flours" and semolina is one of them.  So when you see an ambiguous ingredient list on a package for flour, one cannot assume much of anything as to what type of flour -- or combination thereof -- is used.  Such is often a trade secret.

Butter is just brushed onto the dough spread out in a Malnati's pan and not part of the dough ingredients itself.  But many like a small amount of butter into the dough mixture in any event for home made pizzas.  If one doesn't like the effect or flavor it impacts, then by all means leave it out of the formulation.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on September 10, 2012, 09:14:45 AM
My last many DD pies have been based on BTB's (final?) formulation from page 25 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg157947.html#msg157947) of this thread.  The only change is that I use VCB's dough weight instead, since I prefer something a bit thinner.  For example, where BTB's recipe would call for about a 570g dough ball for a 12" pie, VCB's recipe is around 400g.

This weekend, I did a little something different.  I bumped up the hydration level to 50%, inspired by VCB's recipe, and I did my own twist of using 2% IDY instead of 1%, just to see how the flavor and baking behavior would go.

Formulation for one 12" pie:

Flour* (100%):
Water (50%):
IDY (2%):
Salt (1%):
Olive Oil (6%):
Corn Oil (12%):
Butter/Margarine (6%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (178.5%):
232.49 g  |  8.2 oz | 0.51 lbs (*80/20 blend of AP & Semolina = 186 AP and 46 Semolina)
116.25 g  |  4.1 oz | 0.26 lbs
4.65 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
2.32 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
14 g | 0.50 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.1 tsp | 1.03 tbsp
28 g | 1.00 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.2 tsp | 2.07 tbsp
14 g | 0.50 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.95 tsp | 0.98 tbsp
3.50 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
415 g | 14.64 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = I dunno, .095-ish, maybe...

I used 100o F water, and with that much IDY, it doubled after about 75 minutes. I punched it down and put it in the fridge and punched down again about 75 minutes later.  It stayed in the fridge for about 18 hrs total before being brought out an hour before baking.  One more assembly note: I used 12 oz of cheese total (8 mozz and 4 provolone).

PROS/CONS:
The dough was great to work with.  This is my new hydration level, hands down.  The yeast also imparted some extra flavor, and the dough had great baking action.  That being said, I prefer the more complex flavors and digestibility from a longer ferment, so next time I'd probably go with cooler water and/or 1.5% IDY and a good 36-48 hr ferment.  This is an area of experimentation for me, personally.

OVERALL:
Turned out awesome.  Check out the pics below.  Many thanks again to BTB and VCB for the great recipes and inspiration.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on September 10, 2012, 09:18:34 AM
More pics:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mrmojo1 on September 11, 2012, 11:59:18 PM
looks great!  my stomach is very very jealous!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkreitz on September 29, 2012, 05:45:44 PM
Hey guys, I used BTB's recipe and this was my very first time making a Chicago deep dish.  All I can say, it was way easier than I thought and turned out great for my first pizza.  My first concern was the crust, now on to tweaking and improving.  Thanks to everyone for the great site and input...If anything, I think I overcooked by about 3 or 4 minutes as the crust turned out a bit harder and crispier than I imagined, however it was still great.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on September 30, 2012, 08:08:51 AM
Excellent looking deep dish pizza.  Are you sure this was your "first time?"  The pictures make one drool for a taste of it.  The last picture maybe showed the bottom of the crust a "tad" overdone.  Consider raising the pan one rack level higher in your oven next time as home ovens do vary alot.  Thanks for the photos as we all appreciate seeing the results of your pizzamaking.

                                                                                       --BTB       ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2012, 10:26:42 AM
That is a really nice looking pie there,congratulations!
Especially for a first time...these DD pizzas can be difficult to bake because you can't easily lift the edge up to check doneness on the bottom. You did great.  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mkreitz on September 30, 2012, 10:42:36 AM
Thanks guys...I tried another last night and raised the rack one level and probably reduced cooking time by about 2 minutes.  I also added a few pieces of cheese right before the tomato layer to get the "bubble thru" effect and some sausage crumbles on top.  Had to cover with foil about the last 5 minutes of baking to prevent sausage burn but this one turned out WAY better than my first.  I had two friends over and while being from NC, they have never had a true Chicago DD style.  They both said it was one of the best pizzas they have ever eaten.  Thanks again for all the advice...the amount and time and research everyone put into this is quite amazing.  Good stuff!!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on October 01, 2012, 11:55:38 PM
Very nice work, fantastic looking pizzas. Welcome to a new addiction of trying all kinds of DD pizzas.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: beccaporter on October 26, 2012, 09:10:20 AM
Hello. I am currently reading the 400th reply or so on this thread, but I had to skip ahead. The craving has gotten too powerful, so I am making one of these recipes tomorrow for some family. I am trying to make enough for 3 adults (hearty eaters) and 6 kids (1-2 basically eat like adults). Would a 12 inch and a 9 inch feed us with salad and dessert? Or should I tack on another 9 inch?

I would really appreciate a dough recipe using these guidelines, if it is not too much trouble: cast iron skillets, 1 1/2 inches up the sides, 25% semolina, 8 % rice. I live on my iPad and I can't use the dough calculator because of the lack of flash. Thank you so much, this is an awesome thread!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: kurt72 on November 10, 2012, 07:27:02 PM
yeah, good looking pie.  i making 2 tomorrow in anticipation for a Bears win!!!

all my Cali friends LOVE my Chicago Pies!  GO BEARS!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: aks801 on November 10, 2012, 11:19:52 PM
yeah, good looking pie.  i making 2 tomorrow in anticipation for a Bears win!!!

all my Cali friends LOVE my Chicago Pies!  GO BEARS!!

And I'm making one in anticipation of a Texans win!

Regardless of the game outcome, we'll both be eating some delicious DD, that's a guarantee.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 10, 2012, 11:46:05 PM
 8)
And I'm making one in anticipation of a Texans win!

Regardless of the game outcome, we'll both be eating some delicious DD, that's a guarantee.
alan,
And you know it man! Hope you remember to post a pic or two of your game wining pie...thanks.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on November 13, 2012, 11:16:13 PM
8)alan,
And you know it man! Hope you remember to post a pic or two of your game wining pie...thanks.

Wow how bad was the bears offense?  Yikes!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PizzaFreak100 on January 27, 2013, 12:19:51 PM
Hey all, love this thread!! Is there anyway someone could recalculate BTB's recipe on page 25 for an 8" sloped sided nesting pan. I just cant get a grip on the calculator. Thanks in advance!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 28, 2013, 10:48:02 AM
Hey all, love this thread!! Is there anyway someone could recalculate BTB's recipe on page 25 for an 8" sloped sided nesting pan. I just cant get a grip on the calculator. Thanks in advance!!
PizzaFreak100,
Not trying to be a wise guy....but  ;D
you really will benefit from taking your time and getting a handle on the calculator.
It is not all that difficult and if you want some easy peasy personal instruction....PM me and I'll be happy to help you with this.
Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Morgan on February 01, 2013, 01:28:01 PM
Looks delicious! Have to try it out maybe next week.

Is it possible to use more of olive oil and cut the corn oil or change it to different oil ? Not sure that i can even find a corn oil.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 01, 2013, 02:11:30 PM
You sure can Morgan. :chef:


You can use all Corn Oil instead of a Corn Oil/Olive Oil mix (or any oil with high smoke point).
If you can find it, try using Kelapo Coconut Oil Cooking Spray in the bottom of your pan (or grease with coconut oil).
For a punch of garlic flavor, spread fresh crushed garlic on top of the dough, UNDER your layer of mozzarella.
**bla**bla** bacon flavor, **bla**bla**bla...   with cooked crumbled bacon.  :chef:

 :pizza: :chef: :D
"Party On, Pizza Makers!" - Possibly Slurms McKenzie.


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Morgan on February 01, 2013, 03:55:40 PM
Is the corn oil used just for the taste or is there something else ?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 01, 2013, 04:04:46 PM
Is the corn oil used just for the taste or is there something else ?
Much else. :)  You will notice a DD recipe calls for much more oil than most other styles. It is what helps to create the "biscuit" texture you often hear described.
I'm not a big fan of olive oil in any dough (needless expense) unless, of course, you're a big fan of the taste. Canola or vegetable oil are also perfectly acceptable alternatives.  ;)

edit: I guess to directly answer your question though...yes, some folks do prefer the flavor of the corn oil.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Qarl on February 02, 2013, 05:10:45 PM
I just made the dough.... I used 75% of the flour and water and sugar and salt and proofed for 60 minutes, then added the remaining flour and all the oil and butter.

WOW!  I'm not used to making such an oily dough.  It was really weird to knead and work with (compared to making a flour, salt, water, and yeast dough for a neo/new york style 13" pie).

I'll let it rise for 1-2 days in the fridge and then do 9" following the rest of the ingredients (mozz, provalone, sasuage, tomatoes, parmesan, etc.)

Wish me luck!

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on February 27, 2013, 03:20:26 PM
So I'm looking for a little advice from the experts, need your help guys. 

Here is the pie I made last night.  http://imgur.com/a/YVqkB

Used BTB's recipe back on page 25 and was really happy with how the doughs came out, and the first pizza was tasty, but something isn't quite right.  The crust was just a bit to crunchy (I may have overcooked it), and I may have had a bit to much sauce and not enough cheese.  Could barely taste the pepperoni though there was plenty in there.  Here are a couple of things on my mind:

1. The dough was made that day.  I made two doughs in the batch but needed to make one that night.  The other is resting in the fridge for use tomorrow.  How much do you think the speed at which I used it affected the crust?  I let it warm rise and punched it down multiple times before use?

2. This was a 12" Pie, I'm guessing I used about 12oz of cheese (Sliced Mozz), should I be stepping that up?

3. It was cooked in a PSTK Seasoned Deep Dish Pan.  Cooked it at 475 for about 28 minutes.  Should I be shooting for a lower temp (450 perhaps) and a shorter time.  I just feel as though I overcooked this.

I had a Lou's a couple weekends ago in a trip to Chicago and still really miss that pizza.  Any critiques and/or ideas for improvement are greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 27, 2013, 03:51:52 PM
Mr. Rowdy,
I think your same day dough is fine and you did a good job with it...did you include semolina?

I'm not crazy about your pan...it looks kind of thick.I'm a big fan of the PSTK pans, just not familiar with the sloped sided ones vs straight sided. Your suggestion of trying a lil cooler temp. 450 should help the situation(I agree that it is slightly over done)

I see cheese poking up through the meat...are you laying your "tiles" of mozz all completely on the floor/bottom of pie?

Sauce...what exactly are you using, It's hard to tell by the pic but it looks a bit saucy/puree ish. I use canned whole and break them up by hand, leaving small pieces/chunks intact. If using the ones that are "packed in puree" then I include the puree with the hand squeezed whole tomatoes. Conversely, if the whole's are packed with much juice I will strain the hand squeezed mix a 'lil in a fine mess strainer for 5-10 min. to aquire a thicker consistency.

All in all, you are very close and you are on the right track.
btw, how is the cool cat Boss doing?   8)

Bob

edit: yes, more cheese...sauce amount looks spot on though...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on February 27, 2013, 04:21:52 PM
btw, how is the cool cat Boss doing?  

Boss man is living the life, he's been down in Vero Beach Florida living on the beach for the past month and has another month to go. :-)

Thanks for the input, I will go with more cheese and lower the temp and keep a closer eye on the crust as it goes.  Also yes there was semolina in there 80/20 KAAP/Semolina.  

That sauce I was using was just a can of crushed tomatoes that I threw some oregano in.  This was a real impromptu pizza so I didn't have the time to do everything the way I wanted or use the tomatoes I wanted.  I usually used Escalon 6-In-1 with some seasoning but I didn't have access to them at this time.  

The reason a bit of cheese is popping through is that I put a few pieces of cheese on top of the meats just to see how it would react and thought I may need a bit more cheese.

Thanks for the input.  Will be back with more after the next round.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 27, 2013, 04:30:37 PM
Boss man is living the life, he's been down in Vero Beach Florida living on the beach for the past month and has another month to go. :-)

Thanks for the input, I will go with more cheese and lower the temp and keep a closer eye on the crust as it goes.  Also yes there was semolina in there 80/20 KAAP/Semolina.  

That sauce I was using was just a can of crushed tomatoes that I threw some oregano in.  This was a real impromptu pizza so I didn't have the time to do everything the way I wanted or use the tomatoes I wanted.  I usually used Escalon 6-In-1 with some seasoning but I didn't have access to them at this time.  

The reason a bit of cheese is popping through is that I put a few pieces of cheese on top of the meats just to see how it would react and thought I may need a bit more cheese.

Thanks for the input.  Will be back with more after the next round.
Don't go goofing around with the cheese like that.  :) J/K...it does form a barrier and serves a purpose if you are going for an authentic Chicago DD. 

See if you can locate a tin of Cento "certified" whole tomatoes Colin, and use the procedure I outlined...you will be a pizza hero man.  ;)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: spacelooper on February 28, 2013, 08:30:54 AM
I made my first Deep Dish in about 4 or 5 years last night... I used BTB's recipe on page 25 of this thread. For my first Deep Dish in awhile I think it turned out great. I may have kept it in the oven for a few minutes over what I would have liked but all in all, pretty happy. I had ordered 2 new pans, a 10" and a 12"... the 10" was out of stock so had to used the 12", which maxed out my toaster oven....smile.I also wasn't aware of how big the 12" really was so my tomatoes are a bit skimpy as well.... I only drained one can of crushed and hand crushed a few whole canned maters.... I didn't take a ton of pics but did snap a couple of the finished pie. I will definitely experiment with this crust again.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 28, 2013, 01:29:30 PM
Mmmm....that's a nice one spacelooper, plenty of cheese!  :drool:
No Premio sausage on there... ???       ;D

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23471.0.html
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: spacelooper on February 28, 2013, 04:29:56 PM
Thanks Chicago Bob.... Cheese pizzas are my fave....not just because I'm vegetarian but I just love the taste of all the basic ingredients...crust,sauce,cheese.... Although one of the very last times I had sausage was actually on a pizza at Gino's East circa 1985...smile
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 28, 2013, 04:33:25 PM
Gino's East circa 1985....yum.  ;)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: spacelooper on March 13, 2013, 07:28:32 PM
What is the sweet spot for this dough? Are most guys doing 24 hours? Was curious if a 3 day cold rise is too long? I have read so many threads lately on Deep Dish I can't remember which threads were talking about the 3 day deep dish rise... I was also curious if there are any other fave deep dish crust recipes... have tried this one and the Loowaters Malnati style crust....I like both but am curious to try other faves..... I did try the Stanislaus Tomato Magic ground tomatoes and think that I prefer them to any others that I have had. I also tried the Stella Low Moisture Whole Milk and like is too, however am still searching for my go to Chicago Deep Dish cheese...

thanks again guys,Todd
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on March 13, 2013, 08:41:29 PM
That's a good question, Todd.  I've done different fermentation times for DD and haven't noticed much difference.  I assumed that's because the distinguishing characteristic of DD crust is the high fat content, which overrides the subtleties of longer fermentation times.  But I'd be interested to hear what others have experienced.  FWIW, I don't think three days is too long: I just don't think it shows any real difference between day 1 and day 3 (unlike my thin crust recipe, where a 3 day ferment clearly outperforms a 1 day ferment).  If I had a DD dough that was ready to go and then something came up where I couldn't use it right away, I wouldn't personally hesitate to leave in the fridge for a couple extra days without changing much in terms of flavor or baking behavior.  I think I did a 5 day ferment on the Giordano's dough, and it was fine.

Cheers,
Garvey   
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on March 20, 2013, 01:24:06 PM
Sorry for the delay in getting pics up, just been busy busy.

My experiment with going to a lower temperature did not work out for me.  I went from my normal of 475 down to 450, main issue I ran into was that the cheese was not cooked enough.  Some parts of it were not completely melted.  I also can't figure it out but I'm not happy with my crust for the Lou's style, it just doesn't compare to ones actually from Lou's.  I don't recall my exact recipe but it was something like 20% semolina with a bit of sugar and soft butter.  I know I should really have these details.  My apologies.

Anyways here are the pics, if anything sticks out to you in my process of making the pie let me know so I can improve.  Was in Chicago last weekend for St. Pats and had a Lou's while there and brought 5 back home with me.  Sorry just frustrated thinking about it because the doughs seemed really great, just not the same as the real thing.  For that matter my cheese doesn't seem to taste as good, nor my pepperoni or sauce.  I'm lost lol.

http://imgur.com/a/jSiNE (http://imgur.com/a/jSiNE)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 20, 2013, 02:40:55 PM
Sorry for the delay in getting pics up, just been busy busy.

My experiment with going to a lower temperature did not work out for me.  I went from my normal of 475 down to 450, main issue I ran into was that the cheese was not cooked enough.  Some parts of it were not completely melted.  I also can't figure it out but I'm not happy with my crust for the Lou's style, it just doesn't compare to ones actually from Lou's.  I don't recall my exact recipe but it was something like 20% semolina with a bit of sugar and soft butter.  I know I should really have these details.  My apologies.

Anyways here are the pics, if anything sticks out to you in my process of making the pie let me know so I can improve.  Was in Chicago last weekend for St. Pats and had a Lou's while there and brought 5 back home with me.  Sorry just frustrated thinking about it because the doughs seemed really great, just not the same as the real thing.  For that matter my cheese doesn't seem to taste as good, nor my pepperoni or sauce.  I'm lost lol.

http://imgur.com/a/jSiNE (http://imgur.com/a/jSiNE)
I think that one would have baked out fine if you had used the foil on top trick.. allow a bit more time to add heat to that cheese. You didn't mention a bake time...and that is going to be an important number for you to monitor and write down as you continue to experiment with bake times and rack positions in your particular oven. These puppies can be tricky to bake.

As for the sauce...try some whole plums instead of the cherries...are you still adding a couple spices like in the last one?
As for the dough...it sounds like you are just going to have to try some different formula's in order to get to what you are liking about those pizza's you are having out/bringing home frozen. One change at a time is best...I would start by eliminating the butter and sticking will all corn oil. Next up, probably look into your sugar amount to lighten up the color of that crust. If you think your crust is not as tender, more crunchy/brittle than Lou's then dial back some semolina. You need to give more detailed descriptions Rowdy..."just not the same" can't get you to Pizza Town buddy.  ;D
What cheese are you using...

Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Francois.du.nord on April 13, 2013, 12:23:43 AM
Taking my first shot at this recipe. I think it is going to be a winner. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 18, 2013, 10:49:39 AM
I've not been too active in pizzamaking recently since I've move to a different home in the Tampa Bay area.  But my family made a demand on me to make a good and tasty Chicago style deep dish pizza, so last week I went about putting together a 12" diameter pizza reflecting a formulation that I've successfully used in the past that delighted many taste buds.

Making the Pizza Dough

Formulation for 12" deep dish pizza:
Flour Blend* (100%):  293.94 g  |  10.37 oz | 0.65 lbs
Water (47%):  138.15 g  |  4.87 oz | 0.3 lbs
ADY (.6%):  1.76 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.47 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.53 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  17.64 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.92 tsp | 1.31 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  35.27 g | 1.24 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.84 tsp | 2.61 tbsp
Butter/Margarine Softened (6%):  17.64 g | 0.62 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.73 tsp | 1.24 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  4.41 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
Total (174.1%): 511.76 g | 18.05 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.112665
  **The flour blend consisted of 80% KAOAP flour (approx. 235 g) and 20% semolina flour (59 g).  The proportions here can easily be increased or decreased depending upon one's personal likes and dislikes.
Note: 2/3 tsp of Baker's NFDM was added, but is completely optional (used for color and tender crust affect).  I also added 1.5% dough residue but ended up only using about 92% of the dough mixture.

Everyone has developed their own style or routine for mixing or combining the dough ingredients.  I'm set in my ways and usually put all the dry ingredients together in a bowl first (after measuring out the weight of the major component -- i.e., flours) and mix together by hand (all the while I'm waiting about 10 minutes for my ADY in a small amount of slightly warmed water -- 100 to 110 degrees -- to foam up).  And my preference is to only use ADY.  I then add the rest of the water (which is cooled or cold) and the ADY mixture (previously mixed in a small amount of that water which is warmed is a small shot glass), mix everything together very briefly, then add the oils.  I've often in the past put the oils in the flour first, as some are advocating, but hadn't noticed much of a difference with that.  But I may have to revisit that.  The last addition I do at the very last moment of a mixing of 25 to 50 seconds or so is to add the softened butter.  And doing it last and for just a very brief time assures you that the butter does not get fully "incorporated" into the mixture, which is a good thing. I think softened butter is much better here than melted butter.

After mixing the dough ingredients for this pizza, I put the dough ball in a oiled bowl, covered the bowl with plastic wrap, and let it rise in a slightly warm spot for about 4 or 5 hours, knocking the risen dough down a couple or more times during the interim.  The intent was to use this as "same day" dough so no refrigeration was contemplated.

After the 4 or 5 hour period, I sprayed the bottom of my 12" Pizzaware 2" deep dish pan with "PAM for Grilling" spray.  It's made for high-heat cooking and contains mostly cottonseed oil. It definitely helps to make the bottom crust crispier in the center.  I think its better than olive oil or Crisco on the bottom of the pan and I thank Ed Heller for that great idea.  I set the temperature in the oven in my new house  -- which is a gas oven that I'm not fully practiced on --  to warm up at around 480 degrees F for 30 to 40 minutes.   I previously only used an electric oven so use of a gas oven is a new experience for me in pizzamaking.

I generally never roll out the dough for a deep dish pizza, but I hand pressed it out a little first on the counter (may need a sprinkle of flour if too wet or oily), place it in the center of the pan, then press the remainder of the dough in the pan up to the sides and then up the side of the pan, preferably as high up to the top of the pan as you can, which in my case was a 2" pan. 

Pressing the dough up the side of the deep dish pan is to me a critical part of classic Chicago deep dish pizzamaking.  The tastier and typical Chicago deep dish pizzas have thin, crispy pizza rims (i.e. Cornicione) as opposed to the thick, fat, doughy, crust lip or edges.  One can look at the many pictures of Malnati's, Original UNO's/DUE's, and others deep dish pizzas to see that fact.  One exception is Gino's East in Chicago which does have a thick edge or lip, but the original Gino's on Rush St. had a thin edge or rim instead of a thick one.

So what I do after putting the dough in the pan and pushing it up the sides is to tightly and strongly "press, crimp, and pinch" the dough up the sides to make it as thin as I can.  On Ed's website he describes it as getting it "paper thin."  I don't know if one can get it that thin, but it would be nice.  And one may have to do this several times to assure that thin crust edge.  Actually the LAST thing I do before putting the dressed deep dish pizza into the oven is to AGAIN tightly press, crimp and pinch the dough up the sides of the pan (sometimes getting a lot of sauce on my finger tips).  Surprisingly, it makes for a much tastier pizza, which only one's culinary experience with this can demonstrate.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 18, 2013, 10:52:45 AM
Dressing the Chicago Deep Dish Pizza

After getting the important special Chicago deep dish pizza dough into the pan, the challenge doesn't stop there (altho the dough is all important and different from other pizza doughs).  From the pictures shown above and below, you'll see I then put slices of Polly-O Whole Milk Mozzarella cheese (I sliced from a block of the cheese available at my grocer - using about 14 ounces of the 16 oz. package).  I've come to prefer whole milk cheese (not fresh) alot.  It is still low moisture, but better tasting I think then part-skimmed, but again that reflects individual tastes.  I also added about 3 or 4 ounces of circular sliced Boars Head provolone cheese (delicious) to top the cheese off. 

I then cut open two links of specialty deli Italian sweet sausage with fennel and spread it on top and around the pizza.  It amounted to about 12 ounces of uncooked sausage, which is all I had, but I think I would have liked another link to use, which would be around a total of 18 ounces of sausage, but it worked out just fine as it was.

After the sausage, I added the crushed Malnati's tomato sauce, which was really great.  I added around 22 plus ounces which may have been a little too much, but again, it worked out just fine. After the tomatoes, I sprinkled on some parmesan cheese and pinched on some crushed basil and a little oregano, as well as some salt, pepper and garlic powder, all sparingly added
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 18, 2013, 10:55:33 AM
Baking the pizza

Putting the dressed pizza into the oven, I reduced the oven temperature from 480 to 450 degrees F and placed the pizza pan on the lowest rack level in my gas oven, which isn't as low as in my previous electric oven.  I took out the pizza after 15 minutes of bake and with my frosting spatula gently checked the underside of the pizza to make sure it wasn't over browning, as I hadn't much experience with this oven.  It looked fine, but I returned the pizza to the mid level oven rack instead, turned the pan 180 degrees, and also reduced the temperature to 430 degrees as the edges were starting to brown a little.  At about the 37 minute mark of the pizza bake, I decided to take the pizza out of the oven as it appeared done to me.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 18, 2013, 10:59:34 AM
My family couldn't wait to dig into this delicious, tasty looking deep dish pizza.  Its been a while and mouths were watering.  I extracted the pizza out of the pan using both my small metal frosting spatula and the bigger pancake spatula.  Once on the cutting board, it was time to cut the pizza and get the plates ready, which is the rewarding part.   This pizza tasted soooooo good and didn't last that long unfortunately as it was consumed in just a short time.  I was pleasantly surprised on how good it came out and that even the center of the pie was somewhat crispy, but not as much as that on the outer edge, of course.  We will definitely be doing more of this in the near future.

                                                                                               --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on April 18, 2013, 11:18:54 AM
Great write up BTB, always like seeing what you are doing.  Thanks for sharing, will be trying that recipe shortly.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2013, 11:25:25 AM
BTB,

I see the master has not lost his touch. Great job. The last photo is stunning.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 18, 2013, 03:24:22 PM
For those curious about my comments of "extracting" the pizza from the deep dish pan, please see my thoughts and picture at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg174765.html#msg174765 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6480.msg174765.html#msg174765) .  I know extracting sounds like a painful tooth removal! !       

Thanks PuRowdy and Peter for your kind remarks.  Like Garvey said, this is all a "labor of love."

PuRowdy, have you been to Teibel's lately?

                                                                                              --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PuRowdy on April 18, 2013, 03:31:02 PM
PuRowdy, have you been to Teibel's lately?

                                                                                              --BTB

I can't say that I've ever been there actually, is this something I need to check out?  Schererville where it appears to be located is about an hour and a half straight west of me.  Don't venture over that way all that often.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 18, 2013, 03:36:12 PM
BTB,

Showing me up again I see.  Gorgeous pie man.  Where on earth did you find those tomatos?  Haven't seen them in Chicago for a year. 

On a side note I am cooking up a 14in tomorrow and was wondering how long u think I should bake it for?  27 mins was good for my 9in.  I saw that you went 37min for your 12in. but know u like yours a little darker.  Did you go longer for the raw sausage too?

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 18, 2013, 03:57:42 PM
Another wonderful pizza and write up from a Chicago DD expert....thanks BTB !!   :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: sotaboy on April 18, 2013, 05:19:03 PM
BTB, good to see you posting again.
And you brought up a favorite memory for me, Tiebels.  My dad's and my birthdays were a couple days apart, so several times we went to Tiebels to celebrate. Lake perch drenched in butter, OMG, it was so good. And, back then, it was all you could eat, they would just bring a new fondue sized pot with more fish.
Sadly, from reviews I've read online, Tiebels is just a fraction of it's former self.
Now, if I could only find a good recipe for the Polish sausage and sauerkraut dishes that were served at all the buffets and weddings on the south side, I'd be in heaven.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on April 18, 2013, 06:15:33 PM
Awesome write up, BTB!  Thanks!  This thread had been kinda forked, with recipes all over the place.  Nice to see you packaged it up all tidy here.  (And now with everyone chiming in, we re-bury it in the middle somewhere, lol.)

I went to Tiebels a couple of summers ago with my folks.  Not as good as the old days, alas.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 18, 2013, 07:36:05 PM
Awesome write up, BTB!  Thanks!  This thread had been kinda forked, with recipes all over the place.  Nice to see you packaged it up all tidy here.  (And now with everyone chiming in, we re-bury it in the middle somewhere, lol.)

I went to Tiebels a couple of summers ago with my folks.  Not as good as the old days, alas.

Cheers,
Garvey

Wait so no more rice flour?  Lol
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 19, 2013, 09:08:45 AM
Where on earth did you find those tomatos?  Haven't seen them in Chicago for a year. 

. . . I am cooking up a 14in tomorrow and was wondering how long u think I should bake it for? . . . Did you go longer for the raw sausage too?

Hey Nate, I had some Malnati's cans left over from last fall when I was in Chicago.  I will check my sources out when I return to the Chicago area this summer to see if I can still get some.  I think Malnati's problem was that they anticipated alot more demand that didn't materialize and their supply started to get outdated.  Many complaints were had about cans of tomatoes sold near or past their sell by date, which was unfortunate.  The Slice website just had a raving review yesterday about Muir Glen tomatoes and found them to be among the best. And I have always been high on that brand, too.

In regards to the cooking time, ovens vary alot and I would guess a big 14" to take from 35 to 45, maybe even 50 minutes.  Watching it closely the first time is key, BUT I've seen too many pizzamakers think it's done only to find out its not finished in the middle.  Trial and error is the only guideline.  And uncooked sausage easily cooks within the long time that Chicago pizzas usually cook for.  Good luck.

Chicago Bob, I see that you've become a celebrity of sorts on this website.  But not only that . . . you've also become a helpful, frank and major contributor to all our pizzamaking efforts.  I love your ". . . no pics . . . then it didn't happen! !"

                                                                                                              --BTB       ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on April 19, 2013, 09:31:23 AM
PuRowdy, I noted that your location was Northern Indiana and thought that you may be familiar with one of my favorite all time restaurants, Tiebel's in Schererville.  They don't serve pizza, but do many other kinds of foods really good.  They are famous for their real Great Lakes Yellow Lake Perch, which were the most common fish in the Great Lakes in decades gone by, but have become rarer and rarer as other fishes have invaded the Great Lakes.  It's one of my favorite meals.  Tiebel's is also famous for their Old Style Austrian Fried Chicken, which is always AYCE.  The Yellow Lake Perch is only AYCE on Fridays, but is available everyday as a meal.   

Sotaboy and Garvey, my wife and I usually go to Tiebel's at least once a year during the summer when I'm in the area and I thoroughly enjoy the meal.  I usually go on a Friday and either get the AYCE Yellow Lake Perch, which is fantastic, or the AYCE Fried Chicken and Lake Perch Combination meal, and I usually get two or three refills and don't need to eat anything the day after! !  I've been going there since I was a child and its still pretty good, but the area has built up tremendously and the competition for restaurants there has increased a lot.  Just like with quality mom and pop pizzerias, the chains and fast food places have had a negative impact on quality restaurants unfortunately.

                                                                                                  --BTB        :drool:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on April 19, 2013, 09:33:53 AM
Hey Nate, I had some Malnati's cans left over from last fall when I was in Chicago.  I will check my sources out when I return to the Chicago area this summer to see if I can still get some.  I think Malnati's problem was that they anticipated alot more demand that didn't materialize and their supply started to get outdated.  Many complaints were had about cans of tomatoes sold near or past their sell by date, which was unfortunate.  The Slice website just had a raving review yesterday about Muir Glen tomatoes and found them to be among the best. And I have always been high on that brand, too.

I think I still have one of those Lou Malnati's tomato cans in my pantry.
For those interested, we had an earlier discussion about Lou's and other canned tomatoes here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10837.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10837.0.html)

I've also been recommending Muir Glen. The best variety that I've used from them is the 'Crushed with Basil'. It has a more consistent texture compared to the 'random cut' Lou's tomatoes. IMHO, It's the best choice for deep dish, as you can pretty much use right out of the can without much (or any) need for draining and it's just chunky enough. I also like the Muir Glen puree as a base for Chicago thin crust (but that's another subject). If you like a smoother deep dish sauce, the puree is a nice option. I'd just add some dried (or fresh chopped) basil to it and add sugar/salt to taste. I should write up a new tomato article for Deep Dish 101. (did I type that or just think it? - D'oh!)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on April 19, 2013, 10:42:14 AM
BTB:

I will gladly give Tiebel's another shot.  Thanks for the report that it's still good.  Perch is so delicate that it really can vary quite a bit, depending on who's working the kitchen.  I remember loving Phil Smidt's perch, too, and the "family style" dining they offered.  The other great place for perch was the Miller Beach Cafe (in the Miller section of Gary).  Theirs was so very lightly battered, barely covering the delicate filets.  But that place is also no more, from what I understand.  The nearby Flamingo's Pizza in Miller gets raves.  I've never had it but would like to try it next time I'm up that way.  So many pizzas, such little time.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 19, 2013, 04:27:19 PM
FYI....I called up a malnatis carry out store near me and they said they can sell the sauce as a side.  $1.50 for 8oz.  Seems a little bit high but their tomatoes are the %$#.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 19, 2013, 05:35:50 PM
A buck fity ain't too bad...places like that aren't going to give away noth'in. They don't need to.... >:(
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on April 19, 2013, 06:24:55 PM
FYI....I called up a malnatis carry out store near me and they said they can sell the sauce as a side.  $1.50 for 8oz.  Seems a little bit high but their tomatoes are the %$#.

You only need 14-18 oz to cover a 12 inch pie, so I guess it's the service charge you pay for not just ordering a pizza from them.
Just pick up a $3 can of Muir Glen Crushed with Basil. It'll make you happy.  :pizza:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 21, 2013, 10:52:08 PM
You only need 14-18 oz to cover a 12 inch pie, so I guess it's the service charge you pay for not just ordering a pizza from them.
Just pick up a $3 can of Muir Glen Crushed with Basil. It'll make you happy.  :pizza:

I tried a can of crushed without the basil on Friday but I prefer their whole peeled plum tomatoes.  Have u given those a try yet?

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 22, 2013, 03:53:53 PM
Have to keep paying homage to this thread.  Without it I would have never thought to add semolina to my pizzas.


4% Semolina Flour
425F
25 minute bake

Flour (100%):  202.88 g  |  7.16 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (47%):  95.35 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
ADY (.7%):  1.42 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  12.17 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):  37.53 g | 1.32 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.34 tsp | 2.78 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  2.03 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt:  1/4 tsp
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 22, 2013, 10:10:02 PM
Boy, that's a really nice looking one right there Nate...excellent work.  :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 24, 2013, 09:36:01 PM
Thanks Bob.  Best deep dish I have ever made.  Now if I could just master Giordanos.  May have to get a summer job there.

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on April 30, 2013, 07:04:58 PM
Recent info on time, oil , temp ect....Have been using BTB's semolina formula since inception...Just recently noticed info concerning baking temp, when to add oil and pan oiling....to be honest have been happy with our pizza for many years .....had Lou's about once a week for 25 years either in or pick up....today I made the usual BTB formula using 20% semolina..our new process included adding oil first to the flour/semolina blend and mixing well by hand.. 4-5 hour bench rise and punch down, overnight in fridge punch down with 3-4 hour bench rise with another punch down or two, spraying pan with grill oil and baking at 425...we  pre-heated oven with stone at 500 reduced to 425 and baked turning once half way thur the 30 minute bake cycle....in the past it was 475 for 20 maybe a touch more....results was the most crispy crust we ever had without  burning or extremely brown crust....not bad folks...I would suggest you try this concept and would love to hear further comments...I really think the oil first mixed well and the lower temp makes a great difference....we have an electric over with a temp probe inside....it might have been to crispy and wish I knew how to send pics but I am an old guy and don't know how to do it....

tbv
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on April 30, 2013, 07:15:45 PM
Recent info on time, oil , temp ect....Have been using BTB's semolina formula since inception...Just recently noticed info concerning baking temp, when to add oil and pan oiling....to be honest have been happy with our pizza for many years .....had Lou's about once a week for 25 years either in or pick up....today I made the usual BTB formula using 20% semolina..our new process included adding oil first to the flour/semolina blend and mixing well by hand.. 4-5 hour bench rise and punch down, overnight in fridge punch down with 3-4 hour bench rise with another punch down or two, spraying pan with grill oil and baking at 425...we  pre-heated oven with stone at 500 reduced to 425 and baked turning once half way thur the 30 minute bake cycle....in the past it was 475 for 20 maybe a touch more....results was the most crispy crust we ever had without  burning or extremely brown crust....not bad folks...I would suggest you try this concept and would love to hear further comments...I really think the oil first mixed well and the lower temp makes a great difference....we have an electric over with a temp probe inside....it might have been to crispy and wish I knew how to send pics but I am an old guy and don't know how to do it....

tbv


Are your pics on your phone or camera?

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: CDNpielover on April 30, 2013, 07:39:57 PM
wish I knew how to send pics but I am an old guy and don't know how to do it....

hey man, don't blame yourself, this forum is the most difficult I've ever seen in terms of posting photos.  I'm with you -- i'd post a ton more photos if it wasn't such a hassle!   :chef:  I know the mods have a reason for having such a strict and difficult process, but IMO having some photos that don't work in 10 years is better than having no photos to begin with!   >:D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 30, 2013, 07:53:50 PM
Recent info on time, oil , temp ect....Have been using BTB's semolina formula since inception...Just recently noticed info concerning baking temp, when to add oil and pan oiling....to be honest have been happy with our pizza for many years .....had Lou's about once a week for 25 years either in or pick up....today I made the usual BTB formula using 20% semolina..our new process included adding oil first to the flour/semolina blend and mixing well by hand.. 4-5 hour bench rise and punch down, overnight in fridge punch down with 3-4 hour bench rise with another punch down or two, spraying pan with grill oil and baking at 425...we  pre-heated oven with stone at 500 reduced to 425 and baked turning once half way thur the 30 minute bake cycle....in the past it was 475 for 20 maybe a touch more....results was the most crispy crust we ever had without  burning or extremely brown crust....not bad folks...I would suggest you try this concept and would love to hear further comments...I really think the oil first mixed well and the lower temp makes a great difference....we have an electric over with a temp probe inside....it might have been to crispy and wish I knew how to send pics but I am an old guy and don't know how to do it....

tbv
FLAVORMAN,
First of all, 61 ain't old and like CDN said ;posting pics can be a little tricky but if I can do it so can you. We'll get you past this 'lil trouble...no problem.
I really want to see this last pie of yours . I have also recently been monkeying around with bake times on these DD pizza's and , like yourself, am seeing there may be a better way.
I am old school Chi thin crust guy and grew up learning that we whisk the lard in with the flour first thingso that is another thing I like about what you're doing.
Let's get this pic thing figured out for you.

Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on May 01, 2013, 08:05:03 AM
Sure wish I was 61 add 10... my flip phone stays in the car and only get a couple of calls a week..My wife on the other hand is a pro..next pie I will get some help from her and you can see what we eat. I really think the time and temp as well as adding oil first makes for some more experiments. Good thing is you can eat the experiment. Great bunch of people on this site...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 01, 2013, 11:29:38 AM
I really think the time and temp as well as adding oil first makes for some more experiments. Good thing is you can eat the experiment.
Flavorman, I think you're great pizzamaker and love to hear of your experiments and thoughts here. 

I'm thinking of trying an experiment making two small deep dish pizzas, one with adding the oils first and the other with adding it near the end of the blending process, and then comparing the two.  But I need a clearer understanding of the difference in approaches.  Are the thoughts relating to adding all the oils first mean to add the oils first into the flour blend, which is either the bread or AP flour together with the semolina flour, before all the other ingredients, i.e., water, water/ADY blend, salt, sugar, and softened butter? 

Please, anyone, add their thoughts here regarding this "oil first" idea.

                                                                                        --BTB
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 01, 2013, 11:55:52 AM
. . . I have been using BTB's semolina formula since inception . . . . to be honest I have been happy with our pizza for many years . . . and had Lou's (pizza) about once a week for 25 years, either in or pick up . . . . .
Hey Flavorman, ditto.  I was a regular at Malnati's on Lincoln Ave. in Lincolnwood for many, many years.  Then when my business moved further north, I was a regular at Malnati's in Buffalo Grove, too, but often visited the Elk Grove Village and the Well's St. and the close-in Lincoln Ave. locations.  While first falling in love with the original Uno's/Due's great deep dish pizzas, I later came to love Lou's pizzas as the greatest on the face of the earth.               

                                                                                                                    --BTB

P.S.  My "flip phone" stays mostly in the car, too ! ! !
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on May 01, 2013, 12:25:35 PM
Are the thoughts relating to adding all the oils first mean to add the oils first into the flour blend, which is either the bread or AP flour together with the semolina flour, before all the other ingredients, i.e., water, water/ADY blend, salt, sugar, and softened butter? 

Please, anyone, add their thoughts here regarding this "oil first" idea.

                                                                                        --BTB

Here's the order I usually use when making pizza dough:

Yeast, (sugar & salt, if you're using it), lukewarm water, oil, then half of the flour.
Then I mix it together into something resembling pancake or waffle batter.
Then I add the rest of the flour, mixing with a strong spoon until it comes together.
Then I knead it by hand until it forms a ball. During the kneading, if it seems a little dry, I let the dough rest a few minutes so the flour can hydrate and then try kneading again. If it's still too dry, I add a few drops of water to get it pliable enough to form a ball.

WHY?
I put the liquids in first, including the oil (along with the yeast) because that's the way I saw them do it at Lou Malnati's on a video I saw.
(don't remember the youtube link, but I'm pretty sure it's in a thread where we were working out ingredient amounts & talking about Cambro containers)
** found the discussion thread, but sadly the youtube video appears to have been pulled:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10161.0.html). **


I figured if I'm going to replicate deep dish dough, I should try doing it the way they do.

As far as the food science goes
, there is probably a difference in texture if you combine the oil with the flour first before adding any water.
The oil surrounds the flour grains, which makes it harder for the water to get in, which you need for gluten formation right?

The type of oil/fat also makes a difference: Check out this link about 'Shortening Power Of Fats And Oils' :
http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Shortening-Power-Of-Fats-And-Oils-Continued.html (http://chestofbooks.com/food/science/Experimental-Cookery/Shortening-Power-Of-Fats-And-Oils-Continued.html)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on May 01, 2013, 04:54:09 PM
BTB..
Small world, I live in Florida on the east coast.  We moved my company from Elk Grove to Wheeling Illinois and visited both Lou's often. ( I had an employee who worked part time at the ElK Grove location and he would get me their flour blend to play with, wish I had some now to ,,in those days I used coconut oil with the flour) Also had a home in the South Haven Area....keep on cookin'  and I hear your flip phone ringing....
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on May 01, 2013, 07:30:53 PM
Flavorman, I think you're great pizzamaker and love to hear of your experiments and thoughts here. 

I'm thinking of trying an experiment making two small deep dish pizzas, one with adding the oils first and the other with adding it near the end of the blending process, and then comparing the two.  But I need a clearer understanding of the difference in approaches.  Are the thoughts relating to adding all the oils first mean to add the oils first into the flour blend, which is either the bread or AP flour together with the semolina flour, before all the other ingredients, i.e., water, water/ADY blend, salt, sugar, and softened butter? 

Please, anyone, add their thoughts here regarding this "oil first" idea.

                                                                                        --BTB



BTB,

"Oil first" to me is adding the oil to all flours.  I add the butter during my 60 sec kneading process.  It made a difference vs adding the oil to everything else for me.  Lower temps did as well.

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: FLAVORMAN on May 03, 2013, 02:11:40 PM
Yes I agree with BTB...add the oil to the flour blend and mix by hand..it will all come together, then add other liquids. I do not use butter and am working on using less oil and maybe adding butter....I have many trials in the next month or so and will let you know if anything great comes out superior to brag about....have fun...
ps   I know I am going to hear about this but just bought some fine grind corn meal and will make a few using it....please no yelling....ha ha ............
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 03, 2013, 03:30:54 PM
Yes I agree with BTB...add the oil to the flour blend and mix by hand..it will all come together, then add other liquids. I do not use butter and am working on using less oil and maybe adding butter....I have many trials in the next month or so and will let you know if anything great comes out superior to brag about....have fun...
ps   I know I am going to hear about this but just bought some fine grind corn meal and will make a few using it....please no yelling....ha ha ............
OOOh for the love of......!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on May 05, 2013, 06:49:26 AM
OOOh for the love of......!!!!!!!!!


Shhhhh.....cornmeal is the bomb.  Add a little honey too.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 06, 2013, 08:51:39 AM
This past weekend I went about the experiment that I mentioned above by making 2 small 6" pizzas by mixing the flour first with the oils and then the other ingredients afterwards.  I then also made one small 7" pizza by mixing the ingredients as I expressed above starting at Reply #710 (i.e., adding the oils late in the process).   I used the same formulation for the pizza crusts as I did above.  My objective was to see (and taste) what, if any, difference there was with adding the oils first to the flour instead of later in the mixing cycle.  My wife and adult son were prepared to judge the results of this tasty effort.  Some pics follow.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 06, 2013, 08:54:32 AM
After we consumed pieces of both pizzas in which the ingredients were combined a little differently, we savored on the resulting delicious meal, burped a bit, and said . . . they're both great ! ! !  Sorry to some of my friends who thought differently, but this was our experience with this trial.  There was no significant difference in the 3 pizzas.  The good news to us was that we had a delicious meal regardless of the order of mixing the oils.  The pizzas were outstanding.  I may next have to try what VCB suggested with putting all the liquids in the bowl first even before the flour.

See how much fun these "experiments" can be?  In the name of science, you get to eat some great pizza !

                                                                                                   --BTB               :D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 06, 2013, 03:28:34 PM
Woo Hoo BTB!! You should get an award or something for those beauties...sooo nice man!  :chef:
The photography is stunning. That last pic is the best looking DD I have seen anywhere. I would frame that!
I need some of those tall pans, really shows off your great work.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Mad_Ernie on May 07, 2013, 05:21:29 PM
BTB:

Those are some Killer pies!   :)  I haven't made a deep-dish in a while.  You've got me thinking it might be time to break out the recipe and knock out 1 or 2 for good times.

Thanks for sharing.

-ME
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on May 09, 2013, 10:38:48 AM
BTB,

Perhaps the high semolina ratio you are using is preventing the texture difference.  I'm only using 4%.  What bake temp are you currently using?

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Condolini on May 11, 2013, 08:21:28 PM
Tried BTB's crust for my first trip down the Chi road. Crust was made in the food processor in the morning, local sausage that I seasoned and precooked.
Final assessment: the sausage was way too lean, I over baked the pie a bit, crust was very crispy. No problems getting the dough to stretch or stay on the sides of the pan. Needed more tomatoes, the pie was dry. Liked the butter taste in the crust even tho it was over cooked.
Where's the fun if you can't learn from experience? Thanks for the crust BTB!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 11, 2013, 08:45:59 PM
Tried BTB's crust for my first trip down the Chi road. Crust was made in the food processor in the morning, local sausage that I seasoned and precooked.
Final assessment: the sausage was way too lean, I over baked the pie a bit, crust was very crispy. No problems getting the dough to stretch or stay on the sides of the pan. Needed more tomatoes, the pie was dry. Liked the butter taste in the crust even tho it was over cooked.
Where's the fun if you can't learn from experience? Thanks for the crust BTB!
Condolini,
You have a great attitude and are quite insightful on your first critique of your pizza. Looks like you only have minor changes to get your pie to happy Chi-Town.  ;)
Please do not ever pre cook the sausage...think you got that now though. ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on May 11, 2013, 08:47:23 PM
Ha!  As I was typing, "Never precook the sausage," C-Bob posted the same thing!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Condolini on May 11, 2013, 08:52:30 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Next time I won't drain the tomatoes as long either. The sausage flavor was good because I added fennel seeds and Penzey's Italian sausage seasoning.

So is that why I've had Rocky Rococo pizza with medium rare sausage?  :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 11, 2013, 09:33:39 PM
Thanks for the feedback. Next time I won't drain the tomatoes as long either. The sausage flavor was good because I added fennel seeds and Penzey's Italian sausage seasoning.

So is that why I've had Rocky Rococo pizza with medium rare sausage?  :-D
Probably...argh!  ;D
Please tell me you have never sang their theme song or you'll be walk'in the plank matey.  :-D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BTB on May 15, 2013, 08:16:55 AM
Perhaps the high semolina ratio you are using is preventing the texture difference.  I'm only using 4%.  What bake temp are you currently using?
Nate, King Arthur's Flour would not consider a 20% semolina flour mixture as a "high semolina ratio"  When I corresponded with them a few years ago about proportions of semolina being used in pizza dough formulations, I inquired as to whether a 15 to 20% ratio would be a good norm.  They indicated that "substantially more" semolina would be needed to get the effect of the semolina flour to the mixture.  I've tried 5%, 10%, 15%, 30%, 40%, etc., etc., but have since settled on 20% as that pleases both mine and my taste testers taste buds the most.  If 4% does it for you, that's all that's important.  That's what makes this pizzamaking adventure so much fun.  People can experiment and vary the recipe to determine what pleases them the most.

I've been recently cooking deep dish pizzas in the range of 430 to 450 degrees F.  Ovens and techniques vary, of course, and I've been recently starting the pizzas on a low oven rack, then about half way through moving the pan or pans up to a higher rack level.

Your pictures show that you've done some great work with your Chicago deep dish pizzamaking.  Maybe I'll see you this summer in Chicago for some great deep dish pizza dining.  I'm looking forward to indulging in some Malnati's, Due's, Gino's East, Louisa's, etc. (along with some of the great, great thin crusts:  Vito & Nicks, Home Run Inn, Marie's, Candlelight, Villa Nova, etc.).  So many great pizzas, but so little time . . .

                                                                                                                  --BTB                        :drool:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on May 15, 2013, 05:05:43 PM
Thanks BTB.  Your deep dishes still look better though.  The top of your crusts is eye popping great.  It's kinda your signature or something.  I'd definitely be down for some pizza dining.  Maybe even Chicago Bob could make the journey back as well.

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on September 02, 2013, 09:01:34 AM
After several months of concentrating on cracker-style crust techniques to perfect my preparation of that style of pizza, I'm shifting gears this week and will take a shot at this crust again, because a few weeks ago I picked up a new 8-inch deep-dish pan from pizzatools.com especially for the purpose.

I actually did an initial trial as soon as the pan arrived using the recipe at realdeepdish.com just to get a baseline result.  It was OK but I thought the crust was kind of tough.  Not tender and crumbly like Uno's (which is my benchmark, never having had Malnati's).

I wanted to relate my method for making a super-thick tomato sauce which won't make the pie soggy -- In the trial pizza I made in the new pan, it was really excellent -- after coming back to the kitchen to get a little more after about half an hour, the tomato sauce hadn't run out of the cut pie, and there was no liquid sitting on the cutting board.

For the 8-inch pie, I started with two cans of Red Gold crushed tomatoes, pouring them into a metal sieve over a large measuring bowl to catch the liquid -- about 3 hours prior to pizza assembly.  You wouldn't believe how much liquid comes out in the three hours.  After they've drained, I discard the liquid and put the tomatoes in a saucepan and add two small cans of Contadina tomato paste with roasted garlic, about 3/4 teaspoon of salt and about a tablespoon of Italian herbs, then cook that for a few minutes over medium heat.  I saw this technique on America's test Kitchen one day, they said it helps reduce any metallic taste from the canned tomatoes, and I thought it worked well.

Yeah, the sauce is ultra-thick and that's the way I like it -- Personally, I hate soggy pizza and even after being in the fridge for a few days this pizza was pretty darn good when reheated (I do that on a rack in the convention oven at like 275F for about 20 minutes, then nuke it for about 30 seconds to be sure the interior gets hot without sogging out the crust).

Now I'm getting hungry for this and can't wait to take a crack at this pizza with the BTB crust recipe with semolina...
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BearcatPizza on September 05, 2013, 09:26:09 PM
Well, not bad for my first pizza ever (frozen does not count unfortunately). I stumbled acrossed this thread about a week ago after craving my favorite pizza on earth from Malnati's (and I have only been there ONCE). I'm a decent cook (well... I'm decent at following directions) and this sounded like an awesome challenge. So here we go:

Lessons/Problems:

1. Good news: the crust on the side of the pizza turned out PERFECTLY - I mean perfect flake / crisp factor. Bad news: the crust on the bottom did not.. I'm not sure if I took it out too early or maybe it was a result of my not greasing the bottom of the pan; not sure.

2. I put WAY too much white pepper in the sauce. Otherwise that also came out just right.

3. Like many impatient pizza makers, I cut the thing way too early after it came out of the oven. I refuse to apologize for that, it looked way too darn good.

Here's some pics below, overall tell me what you think:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BearcatPizza on September 05, 2013, 09:27:30 PM
Two more, the final product (sorry for the rotated photos, don't know why that is happening):
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on September 05, 2013, 09:57:51 PM
Wow--looks amazing!  I can't tell from the picture that there's a problem with the bottom crust.  It was underdone inside?

As far as troubleshooting goes, I see you have an electric oven.  Did you use a pizza stone?  A stone will temper the violent mood swings of most electric ovens.  Also consider placement within the oven: high racks cook the top more quickly, while low racks cook the crust more quickly.  Personally, I use two stones--one high and one low-- and shuttle the pizza between the two as needed.

HTH.

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: BearcatPizza on September 05, 2013, 10:00:55 PM
Thanks! I placed the pan on the bottom rack for the entire 25 minutes, turning 180 degrees half-way through cooking. I do not have a stone however, I need to make that investment. And I suppose the bottom crust wasn't bad necessarily, just not flakey / crispy.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mbrulato on September 05, 2013, 10:13:18 PM
Recently, I started using a preheated stone placed towards the bottom of my oven underneath my pan when I make Sicilian or pan pizza.  It definitely helps to achieve that nice brown bottom while ensuring that the dough cooks all the way through.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jdurg on September 07, 2013, 04:42:15 PM
The only thing I can add is that while having the pizza LOOK good, the one trait to worry about the most is whether or not it TASTES good.  :D  I've been a bit absent from the forums for a few weeks as I've been trying out thin style, NY style, and a bunch of other styles of pizza.  This has just resulted in me needing to spend more time in the gym as I've put on a bit of weight thanks to this hobby.  :p

Anyway, right now I'm trying some variations on the "standard" deep-dish Chicago pizza just to see if I can come up with my own style of crust that is a Chicago style at heart, but with some modifications to suit my taste.  Now that I know that I can repeat the standard recipes and have it come out exactly the same each time, I feel that I can go ahead and start experimenting.  :D

The other week, I got two 12"x2" AMCO deep-dish pans.  They have been seasoned and look AMAZING!  Went from a bright, shiny silver color to a rich, deep, heat absorbing dark black color. 

The recipe I am using is based on vcb's "Holy Grail" recipe.  The weights are as follows:

Stop & Shop Unbleached All-Purpose Flour:  200 g.
Hodgson's Mill Semolina Pasta Flour:  50 g.
105 Degree Tap Water:  125 g.
Generic Corn Oil:  2 Tbsp.
Orville Reddenbacher's Buttery Popcorn Oil:  2 Tbsp.
Active Dry Yeast:  1/2 Tsp.
McCormack Garlic Salt:  1/4 Tsp.
Table Sugar:  1/4 Tsp.

I started out by putting the Yeast, Sugar, Garlic Salt, and water in the mixing bowl, mixing it well, and letting it sit for about 10 minutes until I could see some good bubbling action start.  When the bubbling started, I added the oil and mixed it in well.  The semolina and AP flour were mixed and sifted beforehand to ensure they were combined properly.  I then added about 1/4 of the total flour mix to the liquid and combined it well until it looked like a smooth pancake batter.  At that point, I went and added in the rest of the flour while mixing.  ALL of the mixing was done with a simple wooden spoon and my hands as I don't have an electric mixer.  I mixed until everything was combined which was only about 30 seconds or so.  At that point, I put my hands in there and combined everything into a smooth mass.  This was a total mixing/kneading time of only around 1.5 to 2 minutes.  While some gluten is wanted, I wanted to minimize this as much as possible.

Right now, this dough is sitting in the fridge in an oiled bowl and will sit there overnight.  I always like to let my doughs sit in the fridge to rise for a full 24 hours so that it's easier to work with the next day.  Based upon the recipe I used, I don't foresee any issues working with this dough.

Tomorrow, when I go and cook this, I will do so by first buttering up the pan it will be cooked in.  And I will actually butter the bottom and sides of the inside of the pan to ensure good browning and infusion of more butter flavor, and ease of release.  (Though with how well seasoned the pan is, I don't see any issues forthcoming).  I will take the dough out of the fridge and let it come to room temperature.  At that point, I'll go and roll it out using a rolling pin into an even, flat circular shape.  Yes, I know that most Chicago deep-dishes press out the dough, but to get a nice even thickness the rolling out of the dough works great.  The dough sheet will then be placed into the center of the pan and flattened completely on the bottom to remove any air holes, and even out the amount rising up the sides.  Slices of part-skim mozzarella cheese will be layered on the bottom, followed by a layer of mild Italian Sausage, and a good amount of pepperoni.  I'm then going to  put on the sauce, press in some more pepperoni on top to give some char to it, and sprinkle a mix of freshly grated, authentic, Parmesan and Romano cheeses.  Will cook on a preheated baking stone at the bottom of my oven at 425 degrees for about 30 minutes until I see that the crust has browned and the top is bubbling a bit. 

For the sauce, I'm planning on doing a partially cooked sauce.  America's Test Kitchen put together a recipe for sauce that I think tastes great and is what I plan to use.  The difference is, they cook the full sauce while I'm only going to cook some of the ingredients.  The recipe is:

Two Tbsp of unsalted butter melted in a skillet.
1/4 cup of grated onions.
1/4 tsp of dried oregano.
2 medium cloves of minced garlic.
1 28 ounce can of crushed tomatoes.
1/4 tsp of sugar
2 Tbsp of chopped fresh basil.
Salt and pepper to taste.

Start out by melting the butter in a skillet and adding in the dried oregano and grated onions.  Cook until the onions just start to brown.  At this point, add in the garlic and cook until it blooms and you can smell it.  At this point, take the skillet off of the heat and let it come to room temperature.  Once at room temp, add in the drained tomatoes and mix well.  Add the sugar and very finely chopped basil, as well as the black pepper.  Let this sit for about 30 minutes in order to let the flavors meld.  Taste, and add salt and more pepper if needed.  This sauce will be used on the pizza, and due to the amount of time it will spend in the oven, it's important to make sure the basil is finely chopped so that it can better absorb into the sauce and prevent burning of any large pieces.  By letting the sauce sit for 30 minutes, I've found that the basil will absorb a good amount of water from the sauce and not burn if this is done.

I know that this recipe isn't a "clone" of any well-known Chicago Deep-Dish Pizzeria, but I like the garlic flavor that will be present throughout the crust, as well as the evenness of everything.  I also know that garlic will help relax the dough and make it easier to form, so that will help out as well.  I'll hopefully be able to take pictures of the process this time as I know that's something I've failed to do in my past efforts.  Heh.  Stomach's rumbling just thinking about it.  :)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: mugwump on September 10, 2013, 03:59:20 AM
In terms of maximizing the "taste" the most important thing to keep in mind that a two-day refrigerator rise gives the crust more flavor.  Doing it in less time is fine but a bit more dull. 

Also with regard to "taste" not "looks", in my opinion the more semolina the less dough fermentation and less taste.  I think of semolina almost like plaster, that it helps to form a good strong crust but I keep it at 7% to get the greatest dough taste.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Klankster on September 20, 2013, 10:21:44 PM
*** Corrections: I initially put "DKM" in here where I meant BTB -- oops. ***

I took my visiting sister, her husband and my wife down to Chicago yesterday for a museum visit and planned the trip around visiting Malnati's on State street -- I had only been to Uno's on previous trips to Chicago but after reading this thread, had to try Malnati's.

My sister and I split one of the buttery-crust versions of the classic sausage deep dish pies; it was fantastic as I had expected.  The crust was airy but with a crunchy bottom, really nice texture.

So this new reference benchmark gave me the impetus to ask here about what the heck went wrong with my last two attempts to duplicate this crust...

A few weeks ago, I tried the basic recipe from the realdeepdish.com website.  I followed the usual procedures for making a Chicago-style as I always do, and found that the crust didn't really "fluff up" like I was expecting -- usually with a Chicago-style pizza from Uno's I can eat it by cutting off a chunk easily with the side of my fork -- the crust should be tender enough that there's just a bit of extra resistance as it cuts through the bottom part of the crust.  Well, trying to do that with this pizza was very hard -- the crust was dense and tough.  Had to use a lot of pressure to cut off a piece.  Hmm.  I figured it might be the recipe...

The following week, I took a stab at the later BTB crust recipe in this thread with semolina.  Followed the instructions very closely.  Very little kneading, and I mean VERY LITTLE, mostly to just get the dough in a ball, so I wouldn't develop the gluten -- adding the butter at the end like the recipe indicates.  Refrigerator rest in a ziploc bag overnight, warmup prior to putting into the pan.

I thought I was right on target with this dough because when I pulled the warmed-up dough out of the bowl to put into the pan, where I tore the dough off the ball (I was using an 8-inch pan with 9-inch recipe, so I left a little dough in the bowl), the dough had a beautiful fluffy character to it.

I pressed it into the pan (I'm using one of the pizzatools.com dark gray pre-seasoned deep dish pans), added the cheese, sausage and sauce and baked it -- I had preheated the oven and my stone to 475 then dropped the oven to about 440, and put the pan on the stone.  Rotated after about 15 minutes, put a little foil over the top to prevent overbrowning of the top cheese.  Baked for about 25 minutes total.

I was stoked because the dough going in looked so great, but when I cut the pizza the crust was just kind of dense and tough.  Again, fork-side-cutting was difficult.

What the heck could I be doing wrong?  I'm attaching a photo I took of the BTB attempt.  Maybe I'm just loading the thing with too much sauce, and that's keeping the dough from rising properly when baked?  The Malnati's pizza we had yesterday did have a lot less sauce than I use.  As you can see in the photo, the crust bottom and sides were nicely browned and didn't look overdone to me, but as the crust there was extremely tough, I have to wonder what could have caused that -- I sprayed the pan with a little Crisco cooking spray prior to pressing the dough in.  Should I use more?  Less?  Something else?  Would it help to let the pressed-out dough in the pan sit for a while before adding the toppings to let it rise a bit?

I think I'll make another batch of dough tonight and try again tomorrow, with less sauce this time, more like I had at Malnati's.  But if anyone has some ideas about what I could do differently to correct this problem, I'd appreciate hearing them!

Edit: I just put the dough into my proofing box for the initial 90-minute rise.  Went together nicely and I have my fingers crossed...


Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on September 22, 2013, 10:03:59 PM
25 minutes baking time for an 8 inch sounds about right. Not sure how to get you closer to what you're looking for except maybe use more dough or bake for a shorter amount of time. My recipe is on the thinner side and may result in a sturdier crust.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: greggw2gs on December 28, 2013, 11:12:31 AM
My family couldn't wait to dig into this delicious, tasty looking deep dish pizza.  Its been a while and mouths were watering.  I extracted the pizza out of the pan using both my small metal frosting spatula and the bigger pancake spatula.  Once on the cutting board, it was time to cut the pizza and get the plates ready, which is the rewarding part.   This pizza tasted soooooo good and didn't last that long unfortunately as it was consumed in just a short time.  I was pleasantly surprised on how good it came out and that even the center of the pie was somewhat crispy, but not as much as that on the outer edge, of course.  We will definitely be doing more of this in the near future.

                                                                                               --BTB

I made this for some close friends in town from NY for the 1st time last weekend.  I cooked it in a 15" cast iron skillet.  Holy Cow it was amazing Pizza!!!!!!  Gonna make another one tonight for my Daughter and her Husband!!!!  Thanks for the help!  Gregg
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: skunker on December 28, 2013, 12:41:58 PM
Hello BTB,
 I was wondering if you've updated your Malnati recipe based on your latest findings, research, and experience? This thread is quite long, so wondering what your "latest" recipe/formula is? Thanks!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: drmatt357 on June 02, 2014, 06:26:11 PM
Just for an additional two cents, I have the Chicago Metallic Bakalon pans mentioned by dbgtr. I do not wash them after use, only wipe out the crumbs. They are starting to get a _really_ nice seasoning...

FWIW, not all Chicago Metallic pans are made alike. The kind you find at Bed Bath and Beyond with "Chicago Metallic" stamped in the bottom are actually manufactured by a 3rd party and are different than the "Bakalon" pans. I have one of each and recommend the latter, but not the former.

-Clive

OK Clive, this was a while ago and I'm slow on the uptake here.  So the pans you recommend ARE the ones at BBB or not.  Where can I get the other Chicago Metallic if those are the ones you recommend?  I looked at pizzatools.com and they have holes in them.  I didn't see just the basic.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Pete-zza on June 02, 2014, 07:02:11 PM
Dr. Matt,

The last time that Clive at Five was on the forum was last November, so you may not get a reply. You might try sending him a PM.

You might also take a look at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30197.msg301437#msg301437 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30197.msg301437#msg301437) where I discussed the two types of Bakelon pans from CM.

FYI, Pizzatools sells both stacking and nesting deep-dish pans without holes, as you can see at:

http://www.pizzatools.com/Deep_Dish_Pans/30858/subgrouping.htm (http://www.pizzatools.com/Deep_Dish_Pans/30858/subgrouping.htm)

American Metalcraft (at amnow.com) also manufactures hard coat anodized deep-dish pans. For example, for a 2" deep pan, see:

http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/5000-Series-Pans/5000-Series---Straight-Sided---Self-Stacking---2-Deep#.U40EJ2t5mSM (http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/5000-Series-Pans/5000-Series---Straight-Sided---Self-Stacking---2-Deep#.U40EJ2t5mSM)

Once you have part numbers for the CM and American Metalcraft pans, you can use them to conduct searches to find sellers and to get the best prices.

Peter
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: drmatt357 on June 02, 2014, 07:55:14 PM
Thanx Peter.  I just ordered a couple from your pizza tools link. ;D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on June 02, 2014, 08:21:26 PM
Thanks! I placed the pan on the bottom rack for the entire 25 minutes, turning 180 degrees half-way through cooking. I do not have a stone however, I need to make that investment. And I suppose the bottom crust wasn't bad necessarily, just not flakey / crispy.

Almost looks like it's wet from cutting it too early.  All the grease will run under the center of the pizza.  Do yourself a big favor and cool for 5-10 mins next time and cut on cardboard to soak up the grease keeping your bottom perfecto.

Nate
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on June 02, 2014, 08:31:27 PM
*** Corrections: I initially put "DKM" in here where I meant BTB -- oops. ***

I took my visiting sister, her husband and my wife down to Chicago yesterday for a museum visit and planned the trip around visiting Malnati's on State street -- I had only been to Uno's on previous trips to Chicago but after reading this thread, had to try Malnati's.

My sister and I split one of the buttery-crust versions of the classic sausage deep dish pies; it was fantastic as I had expected.  The crust was airy but with a crunchy bottom, really nice texture.

So this new reference benchmark gave me the impetus to ask here about what the heck went wrong with my last two attempts to duplicate this crust...

A few weeks ago, I tried the basic recipe from the realdeepdish.com website.  I followed the usual procedures for making a Chicago-style as I always do, and found that the crust didn't really "fluff up" like I was expecting -- usually with a Chicago-style pizza from Uno's I can eat it by cutting off a chunk easily with the side of my fork -- the crust should be tender enough that there's just a bit of extra resistance as it cuts through the bottom part of the crust.  Well, trying to do that with this pizza was very hard -- the crust was dense and tough.  Had to use a lot of pressure to cut off a piece.  Hmm.  I figured it might be the recipe...

The following week, I took a stab at the later BTB crust recipe in this thread with semolina.  Followed the instructions very closely.  Very little kneading, and I mean VERY LITTLE, mostly to just get the dough in a ball, so I wouldn't develop the gluten -- adding the butter at the end like the recipe indicates.  Refrigerator rest in a ziploc bag overnight, warmup prior to putting into the pan.

I thought I was right on target with this dough because when I pulled the warmed-up dough out of the bowl to put into the pan, where I tore the dough off the ball (I was using an 8-inch pan with 9-inch recipe, so I left a little dough in the bowl), the dough had a beautiful fluffy character to it.

I pressed it into the pan (I'm using one of the pizzatools.com dark gray pre-seasoned deep dish pans), added the cheese, sausage and sauce and baked it -- I had preheated the oven and my stone to 475 then dropped the oven to about 440, and put the pan on the stone.  Rotated after about 15 minutes, put a little foil over the top to prevent overbrowning of the top cheese.  Baked for about 25 minutes total.

I was stoked because the dough going in looked so great, but when I cut the pizza the crust was just kind of dense and tough.  Again, fork-side-cutting was difficult.

What the heck could I be doing wrong?  I'm attaching a photo I took of the BTB attempt.  Maybe I'm just loading the thing with too much sauce, and that's keeping the dough from rising properly when baked?  The Malnati's pizza we had yesterday did have a lot less sauce than I use.  As you can see in the photo, the crust bottom and sides were nicely browned and didn't look overdone to me, but as the crust there was extremely tough, I have to wonder what could have caused that -- I sprayed the pan with a little Crisco cooking spray prior to pressing the dough in.  Should I use more?  Less?  Something else?  Would it help to let the pressed-out dough in the pan sit for a while before adding the toppings to let it rise a bit?

I think I'll make another batch of dough tonight and try again tomorrow, with less sauce this time, more like I had at Malnati's.  But if anyone has some ideas about what I could do differently to correct this problem, I'd appreciate hearing them!

Edit: I just put the dough into my proofing box for the initial 90-minute rise.  Went together nicely and I have my fingers crossed...

Klankster,

You may have been using too much semolina for your likes. Mixing procedure is also key with the oil and water.  Check out my creation using BTBs recipe as a starting guideline.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.0)
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dulcevita on July 07, 2014, 01:27:12 PM
 
    ***Using the deep-dish dough calculation tool, the flour (in this case KAAP) came out to
             "Flour (100%):  190.25 g  |  6.71 oz | 0.42 lbs," but per Peter's suggestion, you need to deduct
             the amount of semolina to ensure a proper balance of flour in total.





what does this mean, what do i deduct from?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on July 07, 2014, 01:45:24 PM
The 190.25g of flour is all the flour: all purpose plus semolina flour, combined weight.

i.e.,
Quote
Flour ***  (100%):  161.71 g |  5.7 oz | 0.36 lbs
Water (47%):  89.42 g  |  3.15 oz | 0.2 lbs
ADY (.6%):  1.14 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.3 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (.5%):  0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):  9.51 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.11 tsp | 0.7 tbsp
Corn Oil (18%):  34.24 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.61 tsp | 2.54 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (1%):  1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.4 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
Semolina (15%):  28.54 g | 1.01 oz | 0.06 lbs | 8.2 tsp | 2.73 tbsp
Total (187.1%): 355.95 g | 12.56 oz | 0.78 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
    ***Using the deep-dish dough calculation tool, the flour (in this case KAAP) came out to
             "Flour (100%):  190.25 g  |  6.71 oz | 0.42 lbs," but per Peter's suggestion, you need to deduct
             the amount of semolina to ensure a proper balance of flour in total.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dulcevita on July 07, 2014, 06:38:55 PM
Ok, just though by chance maybe it meant to deduct it from the 161.71 g. Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 07, 2014, 07:01:56 PM
Ok, just though by chance maybe it meant to deduct it from the 161.71 g. Thanks for the reply.
Good luck with your Chicago deep dish pizza d.   :chef:

cb
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dulcevita on July 07, 2014, 07:29:44 PM
Thanks I actually try'd a recipe I had found on here. It was very good but i'd like to tweek it a lil. I think I may use buttered flavored oil and mess with some of the levels of ingredients or maybe let the dough rise in some oil itself  like in focaccia . this one does not seem to have that same oil'y quality I look for in my CSDP ( new acronym to dispute) or my focaccia bread. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 07, 2014, 07:42:31 PM
Thanks I actually try'd a recipe I had found on here. It was very good but i'd like to tweek it a lil. I think I may use buttered flavored oil and mess with some of the levels of ingredients or maybe let the dough rise in some oil itself  like in focaccia . this one does not seem to have that same oil'y quality I look for in my CSDP ( new acronym to dispute) or my focaccia bread.
I think corn oil is THE way to go and use butter flavored Crisco for your pan. Once you have a solid recipe the only thing to really mess with, to me, would be semolina amounts.

And for a solid, authentic recipe I don`t think you can do any better than to go with member pythonic, Nate, most recent CSDP recipe. He is on his game d.   :chef:

cb
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dulcevita on July 07, 2014, 07:59:59 PM
Ill have to give it a try I can only eat so much though. I love this site, but it makes things so easy. >:D
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: vcb on July 07, 2014, 08:56:24 PM
Shouldn't that be CSDDP ?  :pizza:  :chef:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 07, 2014, 09:03:59 PM
Shouldn't that be CSDDP ?  :pizza:  :chef:
:-D    you are sharp Ed.

Sorry, I should have recommended your excellent site also, to Miss d,  as a great base for starting out on this style pizza.

cb
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: dulcevita on July 07, 2014, 11:38:22 PM
Ya, just checked it out looks awesome. cant wait until my pizza game picks up a little and I can contribute back to the site, there's def alot of helpful info on this site.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Clive At Five on February 19, 2015, 07:31:56 PM
Hey, all! It's been quite some time since I dropped in, but I'm still making pizzas and I figured I'd share one of my latest pies and pick the brains of the knowledgeable pizza-makers here :)

I recently moved, which came with a couple setbacks to my recent pizza-making. For one, I lost my pizza stone in the move, which isn't the end of the world since I can just get a new one (recommendations?) I am also struggling with a foreign oven (who would've thought I'd miss old satan's furnace?).

The crusts of my recent pies have been coming out fairly pale and flexible. I've tried increasing the temp, but that leads to over-cooking of the top. I've tried decreasing the temp & increasing the cook time (low and slow?) but after 45 minutes for a 9-inch, there's still no color. I've tried using different types of pan lubricant (butter for it's lower smoke point, oil in an attempt to "fry" the crust). I've tried to vary the recipe to create a crispier crust (notably higher and higher amounts of rice flour). No matter what I try, the crust comes out... floppy and pale. (Note pics below, pic 1 is uncooked, pic 2 is cooked. Virtually no difference in color.)

My ideal pie has a golden, crisp and slightly flaky crust -- I realize that this is probably EVERYONE'S ideal deep dish, but so that it's clear that these are my pizza goals, I figured I'd make the obvious known. :)

The pies always taste great, but the texture is off. (Hats off to BTB and all the contributors to this fantastic recipe!)

Thanks for your feedback!

-Clive
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Brewman on March 05, 2015, 09:51:43 PM
What brand of yeast is used for the dough? ADY or IDY?
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: romple on July 06, 2015, 11:06:52 AM
Sorry if I'm not supposed to revive old threads.

Made this pretty much to the letter for my girlfriend who is from Chicago and her sister. My only real changes were in tomatoes (all san marzano) and oil (all olive oil, plus butter).

I didn't melt the butter. Wasn't 100% sure if I was supposed to. I actually cut it in by hand like I was making a pie crust and then added my wet ingredients. I kneaded it more than most people here would because my girlfriend likes it a bit more bready. I've never been to Chicago but I was able to thoroughly impress two Chicago natives so I felt pretty happy about it.

Was half spinach/onion half hot italian sausage. I wasn't picky about ingredients or sausage type.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Joe Irick on July 10, 2015, 01:09:57 PM
A few months ago, I read a bit in an email article from Cook's Illustrated about using the microwave to degrease pepperoni slices. I'm paraphrasing here, but the gist of the recommendation was to place the pepperoni slices between sheets of paper towels and then place the paper towels/pepperoni slices between two dinner plates, and then put that assembly into the microwave. I usually microwave the assembly at full power for about 15 seconds and check to see if more microwaving is necessary. You don't want to overdo it because the pepperoni slices can get too dry. You don't want to extract all of the fat. Some brands of pepperoni slices have more fat than others, so microwaving the slices in steps is perhaps the prudent way to go. In my case, the pepperoni slices I use are the standard supermarket Hormel slices (the larger ones in the pouch and the smaller ones sealed in plastic).

Peter

A little trick I learned a long time ago working in a pizzeria in college - try dusting the pepperoni with Parmesan cheese prior to putting the pizza into the oven.  The parmesan will bake into the pepperoni and absorb some of the grease the heat brings out and it gives the pepperoni a better flavor as well.  We do this in both my pizzerias and people always love the lack of grease on our pepperoni pizzas as opposed to everyone else in town.  Try it out and see what you think. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on July 11, 2015, 12:46:32 AM
A little trick I learned a long time ago working in a pizzeria in college - try dusting the pepperoni with Parmesan cheese prior to putting the pizza into the oven.  The parmesan will bake into the pepperoni and absorb some of the grease the heat brings out and it gives the pepperoni a better flavor as well.  We do this in both my pizzerias and people always love the lack of grease on our pepperoni pizzas as opposed to everyone else in town.  Try it out and see what you think.

Great tip!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: pythonic on July 11, 2015, 12:48:35 AM
Sorry if I'm not supposed to revive old threads.

Made this pretty much to the letter for my girlfriend who is from Chicago and her sister. My only real changes were in tomatoes (all san marzano) and oil (all olive oil, plus butter).

I didn't melt the butter. Wasn't 100% sure if I was supposed to. I actually cut it in by hand like I was making a pie crust and then added my wet ingredients. I kneaded it more than most people here would because my girlfriend likes it a bit more bready. I've never been to Chicago but I was able to thoroughly impress two Chicago natives so I felt pretty happy about it.

Was half spinach/onion half hot italian sausage. I wasn't picky about ingredients or sausage type.

Nice pie.  See you got the 312 beer too.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Jan Sisu on August 02, 2015, 09:53:32 AM
I am reading this whole conversation with real interest both because I have eaten at Lou Malnati's but also i am wanting to make a deep dish pizza next week for a birthday party!!!!!!  what great timing. Thank you for being so very specific!
Jan in So Cal.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: ah99 on January 21, 2017, 07:35:38 PM
Hi guys

I've been eagerly reading your posts and seeing pics of your amazing pizzas for a while now, and tonight I made a first attempt at a Chicago deep pan...actually it's the first pizza I've ever made, using BTBs original recipe!

To be honest, despite getting good feedback on flavour, there were a few issues which I hoped you might be able to advise on please?

Firstly, I did not have time to put the dough in the fridge overnight, so instead I proofed it in a warm place for an hour until it had doubled in size. Is this an ok alternative?

I read a recipe in the great Chicago style cookbook which recommended par-baking the crust in the oven for four minutes and then pricking it all over with a fork to ensure a "springy" texture. I did not do this; would it have improved my crust?

In terms of the pizza I made, the ratios of ingredients were all wrong. About 3 times as much sausagemeat as recommended in most pizza recipes I've seen and far too much sauce too (I went rogue as the tomatoes come in different sized packages here and I made my own Italian sausage mix and miscalculated!)

The pizza crust was golden and the underside done very nicely, however the base was an uneven thickness, and verging on bread-like in the thicker places.

I didn't get the buttery flaky texture described by BTB, it was denser than that. The pizza crust edge was thin as BTBs, but with dark patches where the grease (I think?) seeped through, and had a sort of bendy texture. There was also a bit of excess water upon cutting the pizza. I did pre-fry the peppers and onions to reduce the water content, and seived the tomatoes as recommended by BTB.

My oven is fan by default, there is no non-fan option, but I kept the pizza in for the full 25 minutes (turning 180 degrees after 15 mins), but it's a hot oven, so am also wondering if I left it in for too long.

Do you think the texture was affected by the amount of toppings on the pizza? Should I use the par-baking method? Should I have baked it for less time? I think the grease factor would be alleviated with the correct portion size of sausage!

Would appreciate any tips as pizza pics posted by you all are incredible!

Thanks
Ami
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: boamama on March 31, 2017, 10:47:28 AM
Hi all,

I just joined this group because I love :pizza:! I've been trying, on my own, to duplicate the Lou's Deep dish butter crust. It's been a labor of love, having to try different dough recipes.  ;D After reading through many of these posts, I realized I needed to start weighing my flour, and sifting it as well! Who would have thunk it?

I just purchased a scale off Amazon, so my next pizza will have the flour weighed, along with some Semolina. I had no idea. Does Lou's have Semolina in it?

I have a lot to learn, but it's been fun experimenting. Every time I make pizza, the dough never rests overnight in the fridge.  ::)  I'm too impatient. LOL. I also mix into the dough a bit of oregano and basil. So, it's a rise and make the pizza.

My last pizza, (see photo) I used my stone in a preheated 500 ° oven, then dropped the temp to 450°, as per a few recommendations. That really helped cook the bottom of the dough.

I didn't follow the flour recipe generator, as I didn't have a scale. My layers were mozz cheese on the bottom, 1 lb. fresh italian sausage, onions, green pepper, fresh garlic mixed with oregano, basil, salt and pepper. I topped it with 2-28 oz Cento San Marzano whole tomatoes, broken up with my hands and drained for about an hour.

I put my pan into a 500° oven, with a hot pizza stone on the second to last lower rack. I dropped the temp to 450° Set the timer for 15 minutes. When the timer went off, I rotated the pan 180°. I topped the pizza with a bit more mozzarella cheese and put it back into the oven for another 15 minutes.

I brushed the crust with a bit of melted butter with garlic and let it rest on the counter for about 20 minutes. My hubbs really liked it. The crust still isn't the same as Lou's butter crust but we aren't complaining. Maybe when I weigh everything out, it may make a difference. ::)

Well, thanks for reading, and I will post updates of my new pizza, using weighed ingredients.

Ciao everyone  :-*    :pizza:    :drool:
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PapaLous on April 09, 2017, 04:26:46 PM
Oh man. Twenty pages down, twenty to go....
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PapaLous on April 10, 2017, 06:39:23 PM
Thirty down.

Forty pages of pizza recipes on the thread, forty pages of pizza!
You make 14" round, shovel it down, thirty-nine pages of pizza recipes on the thread!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: boamama on April 10, 2017, 07:01:39 PM
what is your point?  :o
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PapaLous on April 11, 2017, 02:06:49 PM
Hey All,

Well, this thread has been a absolute wealth of knowledge!!

I worked at pizza places all throughout high school (three of them) and a lot of the thread brought back fond memories. Thank you to all that participated, especially Pete-zaa, BTB, loowaters, Clive, and the rest!

Having waded through this and a number of other threads, I do have a question: is there now a newer "gold standard" for a Malnati's DD, an UNO's DD, and a Home Run thin crust? Any links would be appreciated!!

I know, I know, personal preference, experiment, oven, pan, hydration, etc. I'm not asking for the most "accurate" or "authentic", I'm asking if there is a generally accepted formula for the home baker beyond BTBs April 2013 posting:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6480.msg249211#msg249211

as that one is almost four years old. I have no issues with tweaking, and I doubt the calculator will pose any issues. I would just prefer to tweak from what seems to give the best result for the home cook. I want to make great pizza, but there is no reason for me to reinvent the wheel, making each of the formulas in this thread. I'm an anti-cornmealite, but that's about it.

Thank you all for your thoughts and opinions! Such a great forum!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hermit on April 11, 2017, 07:39:55 PM
That is a newer posting than the one I thought was the latest.  I would think you couldn't go wrong with that formula, look at the pictures of the crust in that post.  I am going to make one soon.

If you search for home run inn you'll see there is a thread for it - https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6112.0

As to Uno DD, you may have to dig a little deeper for that.  There's a ton of posts on this forum with recipes galore, many very hidden.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: PapaLous on April 12, 2017, 02:15:40 PM
That is a newer posting than the one I thought was the latest.  I would think you couldn't go wrong with that formula, look at the pictures of the crust in that post.  I am going to make one soon.

If you search for home run inn you'll see there is a thread for it - https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6112.0

As to Uno DD, you may have to dig a little deeper for that.  There's a ton of posts on this forum with recipes galore, many very hidden.

Thanks Hermit, I did find the HRI, with loowaters' and Jackie Tran's formulas. Seems that one is nailed down as well, but I read that thread backwards. If anyone has an idea where the UNO's DD is, I would greatly appreciate it.

Like I said, I'm not interested in the "best" or the "most authentic", because I don't have that type of equipment at home. When I made pizzas, we had a big oven with four or five decks (I don't know what it was called) that could hold a little more than four 16" pizzas on each deck. The decks rotated vertically, and you turned the rotation off as you slid the pizzas off of the peel into the oven. I think it must have been set at 500 degrees or so. Very well lit inside so you could see the pizzas well.

We used a roller, simple flour on each side, rolled close enough, then we used three (I am quite certain that they were pot lids, but who knows) sizers, and just cut the dough around them with pizza cutters. The pizzas were made directly on the wooden peels, using lots of breadcrumbs to keep them from sticking. Needless to say, we got ~quite~ proficient with both the metal and the wooden peels. Putting pizzas in or taking them out without stopping the oven, moving them around on the decks, etc. Anything dumb you could do with them, we did it.

It was sort of like The Three Musketeers. Well, The Three Muskteers if d'Artagnan had lost that first duel with Rochefort, and Athos and Aramis had just knifed that dandy Porthos and been done with it.
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: sdhberg on April 13, 2017, 08:34:09 PM
Thanks Hermit, I did find the HRI, with loowaters' and Jackie Tran's formulas. Seems that one is nailed down as well, but I read that thread backwards. If anyone has an idea where the UNO's DD is, I would greatly appreciate it.

Like I said, I'm not interested in the "best" or the "most authentic", because I don't have that type of equipment at home. When I made pizzas, we had a big oven with four or five decks (I don't know what it was called) that could hold a little more than four 16" pizzas on each deck. The decks rotated vertically, and you turned the rotation off as you slid the pizzas off of the peel into the oven. I think it must have been set at 500 degrees or so. Very well lit inside so you could see the pizzas well.

We used a roller, simple flour on each side, rolled close enough, then we used three (I am quite certain that they were pot lids, but who knows) sizers, and just cut the dough around them with pizza cutters. The pizzas were made directly on the wooden peels, using lots of breadcrumbs to keep them from sticking. Needless to say, we got ~quite~ proficient with both the metal and the wooden peels. Putting pizzas in or taking them out without stopping the oven, moving them around on the decks, etc. Anything dumb you could do with them, we did it.

It was sort of like The Three Musketeers. Well, The Three Muskteers if d'Artagnan had lost that first duel with Rochefort, and Athos and Aramis had just knifed that dandy Porthos and been done with it.

I'm new to this forum, and this is my first post. I have been looking for a Malnati's dough recipe since I first tried their pizza in February. But I digress,

I have a recipe for Uno's that is pretty close to the mark, as least as I remember it. We used to have an Uno's here in town, but they closed 15 years ago. If found this recipe in 2003 and made it a couple of times. It was apparently created/adapted by Jeff Smith (the Frugal Gourmet).  So, here you go - hope it's close to what you are looking for.

Uno Dough Recipe

    * 2 packages rapid rise dry yeast
    * 2 cups warm water
    * 1/2 cup vegetable oil
    * 4 tablespoons olive oil
    * 1/2 cup cornmeal
    * 5 1/2 cups flour

In the bowl of a stand mixer (KitchenAid), dissolve the yeast in the water. Add the vegetable oil, olive oil, cornmeal, and half of the flour. Beat for 10 minutes. Attach the dough hook and mix in the remaining flour. Knead for several minutes with the mixer. (Note: because the dough is very rich and moist, it would be difficult to do this by hand.)

Remove dough and place on a clean countertop. Cover with a very large metal bowl and allow to rise until double in bulk. Punch down and allow to rise again. Punch down a second time and you are ready to make pizza!

Oil your deep-dish pizza pan. Depending on the size of your pan, place some dough in the pan and push it out to the edges using your fingers. Put in enough dough so that you can run the crust right up the side of the pan. Make it about 1/8-inch thick throughout the pan.
 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Garvey on April 17, 2017, 10:06:10 AM
There's a ton of posts on this forum with recipes galore, many very hidden.

Or you can look at the stickies.  For example, the DD sticky has 14 tried-and-true formulations. 
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hermit on April 20, 2017, 08:53:15 PM
I made a malnati clone based on BTB's recipe and instructions here - https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6480.msg249211#msg249211

Wow, all I can say is this crust is king.  Never had a flavor in pizza crust so rich and perfect to balance the entire bite (sausage seems to be key?).  This is a 12" pizza, 14oz of cheese (I was told to use more by my testers), otherwise the rest of the pie seemed great.  I used Cento SM Organic whole peeled tomatoes (28oz can with basil removed, juice reduced and added back to the tomatoes=18oz finished sauce) with only 1/2 tsp of salt.  Full coverage hormel pepperoni and italian sausage crumbles, then about 0.5oz reggiano on top.  Next I'm going to do raw sausage and whole milk mozz slices instead of shredded.

Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: lifted74 on May 01, 2017, 02:04:11 PM
Decided to give this one a try this past weekend.

I used the formulation on the very first page, reply #19 (I used regular AP flour w/ 25% Semolina) scaled for a 16" pie with DD dough Calculator:

Flour (100%):    533.01 g  |  18.8 oz | 1.18 lbs
Water (47%):    250.52 g  |  8.84 oz | 0.55 lbs
ADY (.7%):    3.73 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    31.98 g | 1.13 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.11 tsp | 2.37 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.5%):    98.61 g | 3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs | 7.3 tbsp | 0.46 cups
Butter/Margarine (1%):    5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    8 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.01 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
Cream of Tartar (.75%):    4 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Total (175.45%):   935.17 g | 32.99 oz | 2.06 lbs | TF = 0.125

Frankly this thing was a monster ;D

As other people have experienced, my finished dough ball was extremely oily. It was the consistency of a wet, greasy sponge. I wasn't sure if this was right; I feel like I added too much oil at once and maybe it hadn't mixed fully into the dough but I decided to roll with it.

It went directly into the fridge for 24 hours. I checked after a couple hours and it was definitely rising so that was a good sign ::)


I used a 16 " cake pan I originally picked up on Amazon to do PH style pan pizza. Oiled it up with Crisco and spread it out into the pan. It spread into the pan really easily.


Added a layer of sliced cheese, mozzarella & provolone. When I started applying the sausage and sauce, I realized I underestimated how much toppings I'd need to fill this thing. I reckoned that's probably part of why you usually see these being made much smaller. All that sliced cheese gets pricey :'(

So the sausage & sauce coverage was a little more sparce than I'd intended. In hindsight, any more may have been too much. I used a bunch of grated Parmesan to fill out the top.

I have decided thus far that these S&W Tomatoes are my go to for sauce. Just added some salt, pepper & olive oil.

Cooked @ 425 for 40 minutes, center rack on my stone.

I definitely still prefer NY style, but this was absolutely delicious. The cheese tasted fantastic, with all the sausage & pepperoni oil mixed in. The outside was crunchy, and the crumb was very similar in texture and taste to cornbread. Is this what it's supposed to be?

Thanks so much to BTB for the awesome recipe!!!
Title: Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
Post by: Hermit on May 01, 2017, 05:27:09 PM
Nice malnati clone, 16" wow yeah I thought 12" took a lot of toppings.  :drool:  Great job, what did you think of the sauce?  The dough you describe is exactly what my dough feels like.  You can see youtube videos of mark malnati ripping a chunk of dough easily from the ball.  It's a lot like a pie/pastry crust.  On just a 12" pie I need nearly 2x 28oz cans of whole peeled tomatoes strained, over a pound of cheese and whatever else we decide to add to the weight  :-D  Personally I am taking a better liking to deep dish pizza than lasagna.