Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2009, 02:17:38 AM

Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2009, 02:17:38 AM
Margherita with an All-Trumps crust.  The dough was refrigerated for 8 days.  Tasted great.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Vlap on January 23, 2009, 08:28:15 AM
Even though I don't know what the all trumps crust is I must say that pizza looks incredible! Giving me something to strive for.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 23, 2009, 09:17:11 AM
Glutenboy,

You have become a real pro with your pizzas  8).

Can you tell us which dough formulation you used for the latest pizza, and also the bake protocol?

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: mikeintj on January 23, 2009, 09:40:40 AM

One of the top 5 pizza pics I have seen on this site, and I have been browsing for over a year!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JConk007 on January 23, 2009, 09:56:18 AM
I Concur absolutely gorgeous!!
San Marzano Hand crushed??
I am with Peter, please share recipe, and baking methods to achieve such a beautiful delight :pizza:
I have been wanting to try the All Trumps now I need to try it! I assume very little ADY yeast for the 8 days?
I cant stop going back and looking :o
JOhn
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2009, 06:40:27 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook has a chance to really develop the gluten.  A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it.  The dough was smooth and extensible.  A bulk room-temperature rise for a couple of hours.  The rise was good but not out of control.  Then I scaled and pulled the dough balls tight, oiled the containers and the doughs (I use the Gladware round containers) and put them in the fridge for a nice long nap.  No degassing like I used to with the Harvest King.  All trumps doesn't seem to forgive and recover from re-balling.  I was more generous with the olive oil (evoo) than usual because the All-Trumps dough has given me sticking issues.  This time, that was resolved.  I made the first batch of pizzas after a 4-and-a-half day rest and used up the last dough on day 8. (I made twelve doughs in all.)

Observations:  The dough handled beautifully.  Twelve hand-stretched pies and not one tear.  I even accidentally caught a stretched skin on the handle of the peel.  It just dimpled and rebounded.  I noticed that after day 6 I had to be more careful as the dough was getting a bit more delicate, but never did I hit the breaking point.  The trade off was worth it.  The older it got, the better the flavor, crumb and texture.  Best dough I've ever made.

The cheese was a mix of Belgioso fresh mozzarella (cryo log) and just a bit of Boar's head whole milk (just for kicks).  I also used some grated grana padano and pecorino romano before the Mozz went on.  The tomatoes were (I'm ashamed to admit the brand, but they were absolutely delicious) S&W crushed tomatoes in the giant can from Costco.  I strained them a bit to thicken them up, added some salt, fresh garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper, used an immersion blender to smooth the texture (just a bit) and they went on the pie like that.  Topped it all off with a pre-bake drizzle of Santini EVOO.  Fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

Don't scoff at the S&W's (I would have) till you've tried them.  They were sweet and mild.  Okay, I'm spent...  :P

-- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 23, 2009, 07:05:52 PM
GB,

Thanks for the writeup.

What size pizzas did you make? Also, my recollection is that your oven is a gas oven with the broiler on the bottom and delivers a higher temperature than most. What is that temperature?

If you used one teaspoon of IDY, that translates into less than 4.3 grams, and lowers the baker's percent to something closer to 0.1982%. I mention this in case others decide to try your dough formulation and go with the one teaspoon measure. The lower amount of yeast, if correct, perhaps helped you get a longer fermentation. Out of curiosity, were the dough balls stored in your regular refrigerator? Eight days is quite a long cold fermentation, especially if the dough balls were stored in a typical home refrigerator with a lot of door openings.

You really got good crust coloration and the blistering that often accompanies long fermentation. What many may find interesting is that you added no sugar to the dough. It's all natural residual sugars extracted from the flour that is responsible for the crust coloration, with the help of high oven temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: WestCountry on January 23, 2009, 08:09:59 PM
Wow! 

I agree with everyone's kudos above, beautiful pie Glutenboy.

I have a question for everyone about something that really stood out to me in this pie. Please take a look at Glutenboy's first photo and notice around the cornicione there are hundreds of tiny little blister/bubbles (probably like 1-3 millimeters in diameter).

What causes that phenomenon on crust?  (Is that the long fermentation Peter refers to above?, or flour type? or ?)

I'd love to get more of that in my pizza if anyone can help.

Thanks for the support.
Chris
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 23, 2009, 08:27:26 PM
Chris,

I think it's a combination of the longer fermentation and the yeast dying during the baking process, releasing its last and final gas. I have noticed that in my pies also. However, since sometimes a skin is not always evenly formed, some of the blisters stand out more than other.

Hopefully Peter can shed more light on it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 23, 2009, 08:52:27 PM
Chris and Mike,

The blistering phenomenon has been the subject of much discussion and debate, even recently, as you will see from this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.0.html. I personally believe that the blistering is the result of substantial fermentation, either as a result of using a small amount of yeast in a long fermentation (typically several days for a cold fermentation) or considerably more yeast in a shorter fermentation. I also believe that there may be issues related to yeast death, along the lines discussed by November in the above thread. I am a low yeast user for most of my doughs, especially the NY style, and the fermentation periods tend to be only a few days, so I don't often see blistering in my finished crusts. It is when I go out long on the fermentation curve that I tend to see them. There are several examples at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. Some of the photos didn't highlight the blistering as much as I wish they had, but I usually mentioned the blistering where it was present.

You will also see from the "blistering" thread referenced above that even Tom Lehmann can't tell us how to achieve the blistering. However, he did say (in posts at the PMQ Think Tank) that the blistering tends to be common with frozen doughs. Frozen dough balls contain much more yeast than fresh dough balls, and they can easily overferment when defrosted (they can usually only be used for two days), all of which leads me to suspect that the blistering is related to overfermentation or something just short of it.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2009, 08:55:08 PM
It's my feeling that the blistering (at least in the case of my doughs) comes with the delayed fermentation.  I've read enough posts from others saying that they can achieve this with young (even same day) dough, but I've never been able to get it til day 3 or 4.

Peter:  I'm guessing that pizza at about 14 inches with a 300-gram dough ball.  I leave the thickness factor to you!  As far as the yeast goes... Yeah, I was way off.  A total mistranscription of a previous formula led me to use less yeast than I thought I was.  They say many great discoveries are made by accident.  I would put this right up there next to penicillin; don't you think?  You were right on in your recollection of my oven.  I'm guessing it makes it up into the 600-degree range.  I have to attribute the coloration to the All-Trumps.  The AT dough keeps in the fridge nicely allowing for those sugars to be released as you said.  My refrigerator is crappy, old, and not particularly cold (though the occasional odd item will inexplicably freeze while nothing around it does).  I am at a loss to explain it's superior dough-aging capabilities.  Perhaps the mildew on the magnetic door strip provides some sort of super-insulation effect.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 23, 2009, 09:25:06 PM
GB,

For those who are interested, for a 300 gram dough ball weight, or 10.58 ounces, and a 14" pizza size, the thickness factor comes to 0.06874.

If you were referring to the two hour room temperature fermentation as the "delayed fermentation", it actually speeds up the fermentation process because of the warming effects of room temperature. So, I interpret what you said as delaying the cold fermentation. You are correct that some are able to get blistering in a same day dough, but I suspect that the yeast quantity may have been on the high side. Pure time alone may not be the explanation. For example, I described a dough at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg62332.html#msg62332 that was fermented at room temperature for about 20-24 hours, and I did not get the blistering. In that case, to get the dough to ferment that long at room temperature without self destructing, I used a bit more than one half of 1/64 teaspoon of IDY.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2009, 09:28:42 PM
Yeah, when I said "delayed," I was referring to the long cold fermentation.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: November on January 23, 2009, 09:56:32 PM
I have to attribute the coloration to the All-Trumps.

I withheld my opinion regarding Glutenboy's pizzas until I knew what flour was being used.  Now that I know Glutenboy acheived such impressive results with the non-bromated version of All-Trumps, I have to commend him for his great looking pizzas.  I also agree that the specific form of coloration was likely due to the use of All-Trumps, since many crusts with similar formulas and fermentation periods using different flours produce slightly different colors (hues), darkness not withstanding.  It's a good lesson on how formulation, procedures, and skill can overcome questionable substances that to some degree allow a baker to "cheat."

- red.november
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: WestCountry on January 24, 2009, 09:24:08 AM
Thanks guys for the help on my blistering question. In checking out those other links Peter provided, I had no idea it was such an interesting subject. I will continue to research that :)

Chris
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 24, 2009, 12:17:19 PM
I wonder what the chemical reaction behind the blistering is, and why there are smaller and larger blisters if the yeast isn't so much involved?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: koloa101 on January 24, 2009, 05:33:56 PM
hey all,
awesome pizza!

today at acme(grocery store chain) i found some gold medal bread flour that is distrubuted by general mills. it is labled as unbleached, unbromated, enriched flour. protein content is 4g per 30g. ingredients are wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamin, mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid. 5lbs for 2.50 cents on sale!

is this similar to the all trumps used above. if not, would it be similar to KA's Bread flour?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 24, 2009, 05:44:51 PM
Peter,

Thanks for shedding some light on it.

Apparently, some guys on the PMQ forum had the same questions, in regards to blistering, and here's what Tom Lehmann said:


Quote
Yep, see it most of the time. This happens when the dough dries. Keeping them covered helps to eliminate or minimize them if you find them objectionable.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

and...

Quote
I wish I could elaborate further on those little blisters (looks like a case of heat rash), but we have never set about to study them in depth. We see them on well fermented dough, as well as frozen dough. They also seem to be more prevelant on lower absorption doughs. For these reasons, we have a feeling that they are in some way, associated with oxidation of the dough skin, but we haven't consucted a study where we have attempted to control them.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


I think I was a bit off with my yeast theory.  ???
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 24, 2009, 05:50:42 PM
Koloa -

That GM bread flour you found is probably basically Gold Medal Harvest King, which is the flour I was using a lot before I got ahold of the All-Trumps.  It makes a fine crust.  My experience with it has been:

1) It takes more hydration than the AT (though I would have expected the reverse).
2) It won't brown as well as a dough made with AT.

Overall though, it was my previous favorite.

Here's a pic I posted a while back of a pie made with Harvest King.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2009, 06:01:04 PM
today at acme(grocery store chain) i found some gold medal bread flour that is distrubuted by general mills. it is labled as unbleached, unbromated, enriched flour. protein content is 4g per 30g. ingredients are wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, iron, thiamin, mononitrate, riboflavin, and folic acid. 5lbs for 2.50 cents on sale!

is this similar to the all trumps used above. if not, would it be similar to KA's Bread flour?

koloa101,

You can't rely on the label information for accuracy because of rounding and other possible factors. Both the General Mills bread flour and the King Arthur bread flour labels state that there is 4 grams of protein for a 30 gram serving size, which translates into a protein content of 13.3%. However, we know that the King Arthur bread flour has a protein content of 12.7%, as noted in the Special column at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/Nutritional-Analysis.pdf (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/Nutritional-Analysis.pdf) ("Special" is the name used by King Arthur for the bread flour sold to professionals). If I had to guess, I would say that the KABF bread flour has a bit more protein than the GM bread flour. If the GM bread flour you saw is the "Better for Bread" flour, formerly the Harvest King flour, its protein content is 12 +/-0.3% (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/HarvestKing53722.doc)). The All Trumps high gluten flour has a protein content of 14.2% (see http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/AllTrumpsUnbl%20Brom50121.doc (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/Flour_SpecSheet/AllTrumpsUnbl%20Brom50121.doc)).

You perhaps will want to study all of the above documents for purposes of the final exam.

Peter

EDIT (4/15/14): For the most recent link to the GM All Trumps flour, see http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000 (http://professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/all-trumps-enriched-flour-50-lb/50111000)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 25, 2009, 03:03:34 PM
Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from  www.theartisan.net (http://www.theartisan.net), 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams.  This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%.  You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon.  May I ask what you used as a reference?  Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements?  Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2009, 04:32:23 PM
Peter --

I went back to correct my yeast measurement, and according to a yeast-conversion table I downloaded from  www.theartisan.net (http://www.theartisan.net), 1 teaspoon of IDY weighs 2.7 grams.  This would put my corrected yeast percentage at .177632%.  You gave a corrected figure of .1982% for 1 teaspoon.  May I ask what you used as a reference?  Is that figure a result of your own personal weight measurements?  Just curious in the interest of accuracy for future formulations.

GB,

I am very familiar with the conversion table at theartisan.net (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm), and refer to it frequently when members ask about conversions from one form of yeast to another. In fact, I have a copy of that conversion table next to my computer at all times and have had many occasions to study it. However, one of the things that I noticed about that conversion table is that the conversions are not exactly linear across all values. The variations aren't huge, but they are there. I think also that some of the variations are due to using numbers that go out to only two decimal places, which can lead to some rounding.

Also, in my case, I use a conversion factor that either Steve or I came up with some time ago that was based on actual weight measurements. I ultimately embedded that value in all of the dough calculating tools. As a practical matter, the differences are not particularly material when you take into account that numbers are often rounded off and volume measurements of yeast aren't perfect. For example, most people, without even really thinking, just measure out things in their own way, whether it is a rounded measuring spoon, a scant measuring spoon or, like me, a leveled measuring spoon. Also, there are different designs and shapes of measuring spoons made of different materials that can translate into slightly different results. Add to this that as yeast ages or takes on moisture or gives up moisture, that can affect its weight and ultimate efficiency when used in a dough formulation. In my case, as my yeast supply ages, I often add a small pinch extra to compensate for the age factor. So, trying to compare 0.177632% with 0.1982% means less in a practical sense than you might think.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on January 28, 2009, 12:19:55 PM
Glutenboy,

Nice to see you are still producing those works of art.

No doubt they are some of the best pizza photos on the web.

Congratulations, I'm sure you always get rave reviews from your family and friends.

A question; Have you noted the effect of the oiling of the dough prior to refrigeration on the final browning of your crust after the bake? And have you experimented with the use of different types of oil and their effect on the final product? If so, what are your conclusions?

I set up the experiment using your protocol and using EVOO, Vegatable, no oil, to see the results of using these oils. (I see it as a variation of a dough dressing, but it is applied before the fermentation as opposed to before the bake.)

Again you setting a very high standard, Congratulations again.

MWTC  :chef:



Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 29, 2009, 03:12:26 AM
MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil.  I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs.  Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two.  Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute.  TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 29, 2009, 10:25:03 AM
MWTC --

I've never done a side-by-side browning comparison of oiled vs unoiled dough or one with different kinds of oil.  I've pretty much stuck with the EVOO for any of my pizza-related oil needs.  Since my experience with the All-Trumps is a bit limited, I don't know whether to attribute that golden browning to the flour, oil, or a combination of the two.  Perhaps Peter might have a more informed opinion than mine to contribute.  TAKE IT AWAY, PETER!  ;D

MWTC,

I have not done any side-by-side tests using different types of oils either. Once in a while, I will read things over at the PMQ Think Tank about using different types of oils, but it is usually in the context of taste and cost, and mainly for professional pizza operators. An example is this PMQTT post by Tom Lehmann: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=13122#13122. Or it might be about using shortening in lieu of oils, such as discussed at another Lehmann PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=6662#6662.

From the standpoint of crust color development related to the use of oil, I think the quantity of oil and where and how it is used is something to think about. For example, if there is a fair amount of oil used in a pan, for example, like the steel pans you use, the good thermal transfer characteristics of the oil, along with those of the pans, will cause the bottom crust to brown as the oil, in effect, "fries" the bottom crust. That is what is behind the Pizza Hut pan pizzas. If there is a lot of surface oil on top of the pizza, that oil serves to capture many of the flavors of the various toppings as they bake. Otherwise, if volatile, those flavor components may burn off and disappear from the pizza. To the extent that the surface oil is on the unbaked rims of the pizzas, there will be some contribution to crust coloration because of the good heat transfer characteristics of the oil. It may be that some oils work better at this than others, but I have not studied those effects. I think that the oil in the dough, even in large quantities, is less effective at increasing crust coloration than if applied topically to the unbaked dough. The residual sugars in the dough at the time of baking and their Maillard reaction and caramelization effects are more likely to contribute to crust coloration than oils topically applied. At least that is my opinion having made many high oil, high sugar doughs.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on January 29, 2009, 11:01:39 AM
Thanks Peter & Glutenboy.

I am looking forward to see the effect of the oil in my setup experiment. I will report back with the results.

I can't duplicate the oven temperature that Glutenboy can achieve with his oven. My oven gets to 550. And the 2stone can get well past 600 degrees as well as 600 degrees but the heat is always approximately 200 degrees above the stone temperature. Glutenboy's, I assume, is a consistant 600 degrees on the stone and the air in the oven. With the 2stone at 600 degree stone temperature I achieve great leoparding not the golden color of Glutenboys.

I am using the same flour that Glutenboy is using, All Trumps, Unbleached, Non-bromated. It is the best High Gluten flour that I have found. Better than KASL, Honeyville, and Guisto. IMHO  :)

MWTC  :chef:

Glutenboy,

It would be great if you would experiment with the oil as I am to see if it changes your results.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 29, 2009, 12:49:01 PM
MWTC --

I did in fact make the batch of dough before this last one without any oil on the doughs.  The problem was that this dough (and I suppose any dough I've made) was very sticky and difficult to remove cleanly from the Gladware containiers I use.  It resulted in some tearing, misshaping, rim deflating, and general dough-handling difficulties.  When I used the evoo, every ounce of this aggravation was avoided.  That kind of confounds the experiment because I'm obviously so much happier with the olive oil.  I think I would need a proofing box with some variety of nonstick surface in order to eliminate those problems and have a fair trial.  If anyone has any bright ideas about how to set up this Frankendough experiment, please chime in.

-- GB  :pizza:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on January 29, 2009, 02:23:05 PM
This is the Pan with Lid that I always use. It fits great into my refrigerator. In fact I use two of them stacked on top of each other.

http://www.cooking.com/products/shprodde.asp?SKU=453550&ref=http%3A%2F%2Fshopping%2Eyahoo%2Ecom%2Fs%3Abakeware%3A4168%2Dbrand%3Dnordic%2520ware%3B%5Fylt%3Daqtbaxffnia%5Fwmac5ub90n3%5Fnbsf%3Fy%3Dnnnn%26clink%3D%26view%3D%26ovstart%3D3%26b%3D76


Have you told us how long you allow the dough to warm up out of the refrigerator before the bake? If not, how long do you allow it to warm up?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: koloa101 on January 29, 2009, 04:08:11 PM
i found a dealer that can sell me a 50# of unbleached unbromated high gluten all trumps for 18.50. the catch, its a 2 hr drive back and forth. anyone know of a company that can ship?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on January 29, 2009, 04:43:39 PM
Contact General Mills and tell them what you want. They will give you a number of the local rep. in your area or state. Call him and he//she will give you a list of suppliers. Call them and ask if they have a cash and carry set up for the general public. This is what I did and there was only one company in the Detroit area that carried it. It is 1 1/4 hour from my work. I now have an account with them and I feel its worth the drive to get that quality of flour.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JConk007 on January 29, 2009, 08:43:31 PM
Kaloa,
You are west coast?
I would not drive 2 hrs for this flour www.pennmac.com has this and caputo 00 ( and a lot of other cool pizza stuff. my time for 2 hrs is at least $100? so the minor shipping charge is not an issue. Grab some Grande cheese and a few tomatoes and have Rose ship it to  you. Spend your time experimenting with the flour not driving around the country side.
Enjoy and have fun creating your special pie
John
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: koloa101 on January 29, 2009, 11:44:58 PM

yup, thats what i did. the closest dealer is 2 hrs away.

Contact General Mills and tell them what you want. They will give you a number of the local rep. in your area or state. Call him and he//she will give you a list of suppliers. Call them and ask if they have a cash and carry set up for the general public. This is what I did and there was only one company in the Detroit area that carried it. It is 1 1/4 hour from my work. I now have an account with them and I feel its worth the drive to get that quality of flour.


id much rather pay the shipping since i drive enough during the work week! i spoke to Rose earlier today. She is going to call me first thing in the morning if the warehouse carries the unbromated version all trumps. i hope thats the case.  :) grande cheese is definitely where its at. my friend, who owns a pizzeria, gave me some to try on my home made pizzas. at his shop, he uses pillsbury high gluten flour. i think his pizzas are really good. all im thinking now is that i have to try all trumps flour, with an italian starter, grande cheese, and a nice marinara...

my mr-148 arrived today as well.




Kaloa,
You are west coast?
I would not drive 2 hrs for this flour www.pennmac.com has this and caputo 00 ( and a lot of other cool pizza stuff. my time for 2 hrs is at least $100? so the minor shipping charge is not an issue. Grab some Grande cheese and a few tomatoes and have Rose ship it to  you. Spend your time experimenting with the flour not driving around the country side.
Enjoy and have fun creating your special pie
John
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: koloa101 on January 30, 2009, 11:55:56 AM
good news, Rose said that All-Trumps unbromated unbleached high gluten flour should be available for order sometime next week!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on January 30, 2009, 05:15:06 PM
Did you see the price of that 50lb bag of flour.  :o  $39.95 plus shipping, which will be $20.00 or more. You could buy 2 bags and and not need any for a year or more. Just store it properly, Peter could tell you how. Plan a nice trip (dinner and a movie) with your sweetheart and you will win on every front.

Just a final thought.  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on January 31, 2009, 12:17:09 AM
Just to rub it in ;-)  I get 50# bags og Kyrol Hi Gluten flour from the Con Agra mill here in Hastings, MN for 15 bucks or so and it's 4 blocks from my house. I go pay in the office, they load it in my pickup at the dock, and I'm home 10-15 minutes later. Gotta love it. Thay also have a lot of other flours available but you have buy 50# at a time.
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: koloa101 on January 31, 2009, 02:08:53 AM

yea i know right! however if i want to play, i gotta pay.  :pizza: i didnt want to use a whole day driving to pick up flour. id rather much spend it on  rest and having fun with my 1 yr old daughter.  :) she sits in her high chair staring at me while i make a mess in the kitchen. it is pricey, but i figured this will be some pretty good pizza flour so i might as well go big and get the 50 pounder. about an hour away, there is a dealer that sells north dokata high gluten flour. it may be very similar and its half the price. maybe ill try that in a few months.

Did you see the price of that 50lb bag of flour.  :o  $39.95 plus shipping, which will be $20.00 or more. You could buy 2 bags and and not need any for a year or more. Just store it properly, Peter could tell you how. Plan a nice trip (dinner and a movie) with your sweetheart and you will win on every front.

Just a final thought.  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 06, 2009, 02:52:31 PM
Have you told us how long you allow the dough to warm up out of the refrigerator before the bake? If not, how long do you allow it to warm up?

Glutenboy,

I guess you missed my last question, would you address that one. Plus I also would like to request that you tell us about your oven. What temperature are you baking at? Pete stated that he thought that you are at 600 degrees. Also how long are your bakes?

I performed the first bake at 550 degrees,with your oiling technique, and I saw just the starting of the color that you achieve. I could assume, if I could get to the 600 degree mark that I would see the same results as you achieve. I am continuing to experiment.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2009, 03:28:33 PM
MWTC -

Sorry I failed to address your last question.  I had a cheap oven thermometer that went up to I think 550 and the numbers burned off leaving shiny metal.  I must assume therefore that I bake above 550.  My bakes run longer than you'd expect.  Probably around 7-9 minutes.  I go by perceived doneness rather than time.  Logic would dictate that a longer bake would lead to a dry, brittle crust, but that has not been my experience at all.  I get a nice foldable crust and rim thats crisp on the outside and tender on the inside.  Again I don't know if I hold the oil responsible for the coloration.  Even though the unoiled dough was giving me other aggravations, I was still achieving nice browning.  Let me know what your results are.  I'll keep my eyes open!  :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 06, 2009, 03:44:46 PM
MWTC -
Sorry I failed to address your last question. 

Still didn't answer it.  ::)   :-D

Also, how about taking a photo of the underside of the pizza, so we can see the doneness that you are achieving.


So, you don't know the exact degree of your oven bake?



"Logic would dictate that a longer bake would lead to a dry, brittle crust, but that has not been my experience at all."

What I get is toughness at 550 degrees.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2009, 03:58:30 PM
whoops...  :-[  I probably let the dough rise out of the fridge from anywhere between 30-90 minutes depending how busy I am.  Usually I'm baking for friends and not timing things carefully.  I do know that there's a window beyond which the dough starts to look a bit overrisen, but usually a good smack and a careful stretch create a fine finished product.  Did I answer it this time? :D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 06, 2009, 04:01:29 PM
Thank-you.   ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2009, 04:12:32 PM
Oh, and next time I'll remember to include an upskirt...  >:D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 07, 2009, 02:26:24 AM
This was last nights pizza.

I cooked the pizza on the 2stone with the 600 degrees air temperature goal. I figured that if I could get the stone to 400 degrees the air temp would be around 600 degrees. Check out the picture....Its appears its going to take some trial and error to get this right. I took a little to long prepairing the pizza. Which wasn't that long, ten minutes. When it was ready, the stone was at 475 degrees. I figured, try anyway. Well, you can see that the leoparding is a little to dark. But the bottom was perfect. So I will need to experiment with turning down the flame at the time of the bake to get the desired color. The same color that you achieve, is appearing, so it will just take time to master the bake. Can you see the right color appearing? It is amazing what higher heat does to the quality of a pizza!!!

This pizza was the EVOO oiling. I could see a slight fried effect. This all needs more experimentation.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 08, 2009, 01:41:39 AM
Here is the next experiment with the 2stone.

I baked this one at 475 degree stone temperature with a 10 minute warm up. When I place the pie into the oven I turned down the propane by 50%. It baked quite quickly. I think that the next experiment I should turn down the propane another 25%. Maybe slowing down the bake will allow the golden color to appear. It might not be possible with the 2stone.

Glutenboy, would you take a picture of the oven that you are using. It would be interesting to see the oven that is producing that excellent pie.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 08, 2009, 05:12:13 PM
MWTC -

Those pizzas look terrific.  Are you baking in a pan or on a stone?  You mentioned that the oil you used provided a frying effect.  If so, we're working differently.  By the time I take the dough from the container, the oil really is doing nothing more than preventing sticking.  By the time I flour and stretch it, It's not detectable on the surface in any way.  If it's giving you a sizzle, then you're doing your own thing completely... which by the way is great because your pies look delicious.  I'll try to snap a pic of the oven later today and post it.  It's an old oven.  I live in an apartment in Los Angeles, and the oven looks to be from a bygone era.  You'll see.

- GB

PS - I just looked at your post more carefully and saw that you're using a 2 stone.  I must assume then that there's no pan involved.  Please elaborate.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 09, 2009, 12:37:46 AM
It sure is a work in progress.

As you can see from the photo that the reduction in oven temperature eliminated the leoparding. The browing that you are achieving is coming forth. But, with the color another element arrived. The lower temperature produced less tenderness, it was a little tougher than the last bake at 50% full propane. This one was about 25% propane. I think it might need a little oil and/or sugar to bring back the tenderness. Futher experimentation will reveal that.

Yes, these are baked on the stone alone. No pan or screen is being used.

This last pizza was just as you describe in your protocol.

The fried effect was on the first one that was slightly over cooked. What I did, which as you stated was completely different than what you are doing. I oiled the aged dough right out of the refrigerator and then allowed the 2 hour counter rise. Different elements to play with. I thought the oil was bringing forth the golden browning but now I realize it is your protocol and your oven/temperature. It sure would be nice to know the exact temperature of your oven bake.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 10, 2009, 11:14:29 PM
Glutenboy,

Would you do me a solid?

How about trying my dough in your oven.

I think it would be very interesting to see your results.

My Favorite Dough Recipe:

100% All Trumps
65% Water @ 68 degrees
1/2% IDY
2% Salt
2% Sugar
2% EVOO

Mix 2 min., 20 Min. Riposo,  5 Min. Knead

Ball it up, then into the Refrigerator.

48 Hour Minimum Cold Fermentation

Counter rise at least 1-1/2 hour. (I just made a pizza allowing it to rise in the baking pan for 4 hours and it was one of the best dough I have ever made.)

Thats it!!!

The above mentioned 4 hour counter rise pizza used a 14 day old dough from this recipe and it was Fantastic.

I would appreciate it if you would give this a try. I am extremely interested to see the results baked in your oven.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 10, 2009, 11:21:36 PM
MWTC,

It might help Glutenboy to know the size of the pizza and how much dough is used to make that size pizza. Or, alternatively, a thickness factor.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 11, 2009, 10:39:14 AM
Peter,

I would rather Glutenboy just do it his way with My recipe and protocol.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 11, 2009, 10:47:03 AM
MWTC,

That's fine but he may not know how much dough to make and how much dough to use to make a pizza. He could end up with a different skin thickness and a different result. But I will leave that up to you guys.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 11, 2009, 10:55:58 AM
What I am looking for is for him to match this pizza with My dough. He will know how much dough to make and how much to use on this pizza. I want to see the effect of his oven on my dough as compared to this pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 15, 2009, 01:02:08 AM
Sorry,  MWTC.  I've been preoccupied.  I will get on that yummy project and post a pic of my oven ASAP.  As for the temp of my oven, I am, unfortunately, ill-equipped to get you a reading.  More soon.

PS -  Did you say 14 DAYS?!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 16, 2009, 12:22:33 PM
Yes, 14 days. And it was still fantastic. At the 16 day point I saw the first spotting. I don't need the dough to last that long but is sure is nice.

Try the recipe and tell me what you experience.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: PizzaHog on February 16, 2009, 01:48:42 PM
This is a fantastic thread that I will be referring to often!

Glutenboy, your pizzas have me drooling.  Guess I should opted to actually eat lunch instead of reading!
Would you please be so kind as to post the info for your Detroit area source for the All Trumps?  I too am not too far and just have to give your recipe a go.
Thanks!
Hog
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 16, 2009, 02:24:29 PM
The Detroit source for All Trumps is:

Miceli & OldField
12250 Delta Drive
Taylor, MI
734-946-4500
9am-3pm Cash and Carry

I think they sell it in 25 and 50 lb bags. Ask for the Green if you want the Un-Bleached, Non-bromated.

I don't think Glutenboy knows where this is since he lives in L.A.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: PizzaHog on February 16, 2009, 08:24:11 PM
Oh, sorry about that MW.  Guess I was reading too fast on lunch break..
Just picked up an infra red thermometer from Harbor Freight in Clinton Township for $39 in the event you are looking for one, and having fun taking temps on everything in the house.  I just tried to take the cat's temp and found the best kitty toy yet - she goes bonkers chasing the laser!
Found out my new stone hits 630-640 on the oven floor too, which is even better news.
Thanks for the info!
Hog
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JConk007 on February 16, 2009, 08:52:18 PM
Glad you like the Harbor freight IR thermo http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7900.0.html I found em by me too some sy be leary Glad yous is working well 640 is great what kind of stone?
Thanks
John
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: PizzaHog on February 16, 2009, 09:21:10 PM
Not sure of brand as it is not new but never used, but sounds like the one Pete-zza has described as rectangular with feet on the bottom.  Hope to try some version of this on it soon.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jaysus on February 19, 2009, 01:17:41 PM
I love this thread!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on February 21, 2009, 11:14:38 PM
Check out last nights BLT Pizza.

The first photo was the Cheese and Bacon baked and the second photo was with the Mayonnaise, Lettuce and Tomato added.

This was the 2% Dough at 11 days old.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: BigMike on February 24, 2009, 08:31:03 AM
Glutenboy,
Can you tell us about how your oven is configured.  I read about the broiler on the bottom (sounds similar to mine).  Do you put your quarry tiles on the floor of the oven?  Lowest rack?  Do you put additional tiles on a rack above the pizza to get more heat from the top?  How long do you heat the oven before getting the first pies in?  Do you set it to the highest temp or broil?  Do you ever need to finish in the broiler?  Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 24, 2009, 12:53:45 PM
Big Mike --

Tiles on the lowest rack, oven set on broil, preheat for at least about an hour, no tiles above, and no finishing under the broiler; it just bakes well on the bottom rack.  I find, however, that every oven I use is different and requires a bit of trial and error to find the sweet spot.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on February 28, 2009, 10:06:27 AM
Glutenboy, I just wanted to say that's an amazing looking work of art. Beautiful crust, THAT'S a pizza!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 13, 2009, 11:45:56 PM
Thanks, NY Pizzastriver.  Sorry I've neglected this thread and your requests lately, but life gets in my way.  I made these 2 pies with a 9-day-old dough made with the formulation on page 1.  The pics aren't as pretty, but the pizza was great.  Best crust I've gotten to date.  Sour and crisp yet pliant.  MWTC:  I promise to give your formulation a shot in the very near future and to take a pic of my oven as soon as I clean it!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on March 14, 2009, 01:30:43 AM
Nice pie, I will give your formulation a try also as I did with MWTC's soon. Right now the 'kitchen is closed' for remodel at my house. I will surely need some kind of rehab treatment for pizza withdrawl if this thing takes too long???
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 14, 2009, 11:43:24 PM
Thanks, NY Pizzastriver.  Sorry I've neglected this thread and your requests lately, but life gets in my way.  I made these 2 pies with a 9-day-old dough made with the formulation on page 1.  The pics aren't as pretty, but the pizza was great.  Best crust I've gotten to date.  Sour and crisp yet pliant.  MWTC:  I promise to give your formulation a shot in the very near future and to take a pic of my oven as soon as I clean it!

Not pretty? Your pizza's are incredible looking, just fabulous. No problem with the life thing, lol. 9 days, wow.
 :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 14, 2009, 11:59:00 PM
Right now the 'kitchen is closed' for remodel at my house. I will surely need some kind of rehab treatment for pizza withdrawl if this thing takes too long???
Jon

Jon,
You do know that's a wide open door for me to recommend various sedatives. (joke)  ;D 
Instead I'll just say 'hang in there brother, you'll make it!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on March 15, 2009, 12:37:48 AM
Jon,
You do know that's a wide open door for me to recommend various sedatives. (joke)  ;D 
Instead I'll just say 'hang in there brother, you'll make it!


That's allright, I have them allready, ambien is a wonder pill for sleeping. And if I need  something stronger I'm pretty good friends with the doc's I work with here in the PICU  ;)
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JConk007 on March 15, 2009, 08:33:42 AM
Jon,
Trinity could recommend some micro wave alternatives ???
Just kidding 3 yrs ago I did my Kitchen to the studs  and more. Just add 50% to budget and 100% to time and you'll be fine
I would say your Thanksgiving will be a memorable one this year  :-D
John
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on March 15, 2009, 07:48:44 PM
Well, I still have the grill in the back yard. Maybe toss a couple steaks on........
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 28, 2009, 11:28:44 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook...


GB,
Your crust is one of the great looking ones (love the pimples!) that doesn't get into the obscure foreign realm  of bacteria breeding and cultures. Though I know this would give me the NY pizza I strive for, the whole "I have been cooking with the same culture for 15 years" scares me. How does it keep growing? Do you feed it spinach so it stays nice and strong? All a mystery to me. So, let's get back to your dough!

Ever hand knead??? If so, lets say I were to half this formula for 4 balls. What would you recommend in time and protocol using the "quarter fold" method?
i.e.: Would you hand knead all 4 balls at once, then divide? Separate then knead individually, or just not try it without a mixer?
Thanks,
J

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 28, 2009, 01:37:03 PM
Wow, it's hard to recommend or not recommend things without having tried them.  Let's see what limited insight I can offer.  First, I think the mixer makes a difference, especially when you add the flour incrementally as I do.  I can't imagine hand-kneading a gloppy dough with a third of the flour missing, and even if I did, I don't think it would have the same impact on gluten development.  That's not to say that hand kneading couldn't give a fine result; the process would just be completely different.  As far as kneading after dividing, I'm not a fan.  Something I used to do when I was just getting started.  My two cents is do the kneading in bulk.  Then a bulk rise.  Then divide, shape, oil (if that's what you do) and refrigerate.  Once the dough balls are formed, the deed is done and it's time to let them relax and ferment so that when you take them out for the final counter rise (I give it at least 45 minutes at room temperature), the dough will stretch easily and evenly.  This advice is born of having made lots of mistakes and discoveries over the years.  It's not necessarily the only right answer, but it works for me.  Hope that was some help.  Any more questions feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 29, 2009, 03:44:54 PM
GB, thanks man. Good thought. I think when I try your dough (soon) I'll probably do the ''batter'' with a whisk method with the first 1/3- 1/2 of the flour for a few minutes to "glutenize", so to speak. Then add 80% of the rest and do the heavy spoon until your arm falls off, that's been my method so far. (lol). Then hand knead the bulk ball, with a rest period as you and Varasano speaks of, until it feels right. I keep the remaining few grams of flour aside as when you hand knead, as I'm sure you know, it goes through a "keeps getting too sticky" period for the first 3-5 minutes, so the rest is to flour hands and board, it gets in there. I agree hand kneading all at once is the way. Best to get the whole mass from lumpy knotty mess to smooth tackiness all together. I give a few fold to each to shape each ball, but just 20 seconds or so.

Yours is definitely my next jump, when I get ready I might ask a couple Q's if unclear on protocol on re-read, so thanks much for offering the help.

So, did you cut your cleaning lock!? I'm really getting a sense of how the dough dries out by the time it browns when baking 5-6 mins at these low 550 temps. Well, dries out compared to what happens at higher temps anyway. I think going to 7-800 degrees is the next plan...also soon!

Then comes sourdough cultures, maybe. SD girl, and others, are telling me how much better it is. Aside from my questions about it above, I see threads about creating a "bacteria breeding facility''...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8179.msg70425.html#msg70425 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8179.msg70425.html#msg70425)
and say yeah suuuure, sign me up!!
 :-\
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 09, 2009, 09:30:08 AM
I have 2 questions in reading this further. First let me retract the oven question, I found that info on page 1, sorry.  ::)

Peter had advised me to add sugar to the Lehmann recipe if it was going to rest in the fridge for over 2 days to basically feed the yeast. How can this dough make it 4-8 days without any sugar?

Also, I can't find all trumps, or any other flour aside from King A's unbleached bread, anywhere in 3 towns. So is it worth trying this with sifted King A's?

Thanks,
J.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2009, 09:55:05 AM
J,

What you say about the Lehmann dough formulation is correct. However, there are ways of altering the chemistry and physics of dough making to produce a dough that can cold ferment for several days--even for weeks and without using any sugar in the dough. I developed my own ways of doing this, but others have developed their own ways that differ from mine. You will see examples of this by checking out the links in Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8152.msg70097.html#msg70097. In one instance, there was sugar used (by MWTC).

If you can't find a source of All Trumps, you may be able to use just bread flour or possibly bread flour that has been supplemented with vital wheat gluten to yield a blend that has the same protein content (14.2%) as the All Trumps. You might also want to know that Glutenboy himself used bread flour, specifically, Harvest King bread flour, to make the pizza shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409. The Harvest King flour has since been replaced at the retail level by General Mills by the Better for Bread flour. That flour is widely available in supermarkets.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 09, 2009, 11:24:44 AM
Ah yes. I see in your link with the Harvest flour he "degassed" after 2 days, then back in fridge for 2 more.

Quote
Gladware containers with no oil, and into the fridge.  They expanded in the fridge before the cold had a chance to slow them down.  2 days later I degassed the dough, pulled the doughballs tight, oiled them EXTREMELY LIGHTLY with evoo as well as their containers, and put them back in the cooler for 2 more days.  Started using them at 4 days old.

Seemingly the All Trumps didn't need this, as he said in this thread. So, would you say using King Arthur's would require degassing? OR would you say even with degassing it would be pretty much like my Lehmann's pies as I'm using the same flour again? I'm happy to degas if need be.

Oh, btw, ...how exactly does one degas dough?  :D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2009, 11:51:40 AM
J,

It is hard to say just from reading Glutenboy's posts how the King Arthur bread flour will compare with the Harvest King (Better for Bread) flour or the All Trumps high-gluten flour. Three different flours used to make doughs at three different times under different operating conditions can yield different results. However, being the punctilious sort who monitors and measures everything, if I were using the King Arthur bread flour with Glutenboy's dough formulation I would use the poppy seed trick as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html to monitor the progress (expansion) of the dough. If it rose too much too soon, then I would evaluate whether to degas the dough and return it to the refrigerator.

Degassing can mean slightly different things to different people. For some, it might mean slamming the dough against a hard surface to expel the gases; for others, it might mean gently pressing the dough with the fingers to allow the gases to escape, possibly followed with some stretch and folding. If done far enough in advance of using such that the dough has a chance to recover, it might not matter all that much which method is used. However, I personally would use the gentler approach if the time before using is short.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 09, 2009, 12:15:20 PM
I am a kinder, gentler degasser.  I pull the dough ball sides down toward the bottom, expelling the air as I go until it is tight again, even passing it through the ring made by my thumb and finger to reshape it.  Then I seal the seam at the bottom by pinching.  Works well with the HK dough, bad idea with the AT.  Tip: If you plan to degas, don't oil the dough balls before refrigerating.  The oil keeps the dough from adhering to itself when you make the seam at the bottom.  Only oil it after the ball is shaped for its final refrigerator rest.   Another tip: I don't do any kneading at this stage.  I try to preserve the skin that has formed on the dough's outer surface by simply pulling it down evenly.  Yes, some of that outside becomes inside at the bottom, but no inside becomes outside -- if you follow me!!!  ::)  Finally, how will the KA flour respond compared to the other two?  I have no idea!  These discoveries are usually the product of bad decisions on my part.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2009, 07:21:02 PM
After having admired Glutenboy's pizzas for so long, I decided to give Glutenboy's dough formulation a try. For my purposes, I scaled the recipe down to a single dough ball size, or around 302 grams for a 14" pizza. Since I don't have any All Trumps or other high-gluten flour on hand, I used King Arthur bread flour (KABF) supplemented with Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (VWG) to increase the protein content of the KABF from 12.7% to 14.2%, which is the protein content of the All Trumps high-gluten flour. I used November's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to calculate the amount of VWG I would need to create the final blend with a protein content of 14.2%. Since Glutenboy did not indicate what water temperature he used, I used water that came out of the refrigerator and warmed up at room temperature to around 56 degrees F as I was rounding up all of the ingredients to make the dough.

For purposes of coming up with a dough formulation to use, I relied on the ingredients and quantities given by Glutenboy in Reply 5 in this thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669. Then, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
192.95 g  |  6.81 oz | 0.43 lbs
117.8 g  |  4.16 oz | 0.26 lbs
0.38 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
4.82 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.86 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
315.96 g | 11.14 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = N/A

* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 187.58 g./6.62 oz. KABF and 5.37 g./0.19 oz. Hodgson Mill VWG (1.79 t.)
Note: For a single 14" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I prepared the dough in accordance with Glutenboy's instructions. However, since my KitchenAid stand mixer has a C-hook, I had to intervene in the process from time to time, using my hands and a thin blade spatula, to help the dough mixing/kneading process along. The finished dough weight was 315 grams, which I trimmed back to 302 grams in accordance with Glutenboy's instructions, and the finished dough temperature was 72.5 degrees F. In preparation for placing the dough into my refrigerator and to monitor the expansion of the dough during the fermentation process, I placed two poppy seeds 1" apart at the center of the dough ball, in accordance with the method described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.0.html. The dough ball was placed in a Pyrex glass bowl with a lid. The dough remained in the refrigerator for 8 days. After 2 days, according to the poppy seed spacing, the dough increased by 20%; after 3 days, 42.4%; after 5 days, 95.3%; after 6 days, 126%; after 7 days, 260%; and after 8 days, 297%. I mention these data points because they tell us why Glutenboy's dough can have such a long usable dough life. Simply stated, it is the small amount of yeast (0.19817%) that is used to make the dough, the low water temperature (at least in my case), and the small dough size (302 grams, or 10.65 oz.). It takes almost no time at all for such a small dough ball to cool down once placed into the refrigerator. In my case, after 8 days of cold fermentation, when I decided to use the dough, I found the dough to still have some elasticity as I opened up the dough ball to its final desired size of 14". As a result, I am certain that the dough ball could have lasted at least a few more days in the refrigerator.

I decided to use the dough to make a clam/bacon pizza. I had wanted to use fresh clams but was not able to locate a supply locally without having to drive into Dallas. So, I used a 10-oz. can of whole baby clams. I used the clam juices along with some white wine, extra virgin olive oil, and butter as the base of my sauce. I reduced the liquids until I had a thin sauce and added several diced cloves of garlic, the clams, freshly ground black pepper and a small amount of dried oregano. For the cheese, I used a blend of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, NY sharp white cheddar cheese, and Parmigiano-Reggiano Parmesan cheese. The mozzarella and cheddar cheeses were comminuted/diced in my Cuisinart food processor along with the Parmesan cheese and some more dried oregano. The final major topping, the bacon, was partially cooked and cut into good-sized pieces.

The pizza was baked on a pizza stone that had been preheated for an hour. In order to get a stone temperature of around 600 degrees F, which is the temperature that Glutenboy mentioned in this thread, I removed the lowest oven rack position from the oven and placed the stone on three pieces of bricks on the oven floor, which had the effect of bringing the stone closer to the bottom electric heating element. With this arrangement, the stone reached a temperature of close to 600 degrees F. The pizza was baked on the stone for about 6 minutes, following which I removed the pizza from the stone to the topmost oven rack position (without the broiler on) for about a minute more in order to get increased top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. Both the crust and the pizza itself were first rate. The crust was chewy and crispy but with a fairly soft center outside of the rim area. The crust had good color and taste.

Glutenboy's dough formulation has significant merit. However, as the dough expansion data indicates, the dough is unlikely to be usable after only a few days because of insufficient fermentation. One would have to use more yeast and warmer water to speed up the process.

Peter

EDIT (3/12/13): Corrected the Calculator link
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2009, 07:26:05 PM
A couple more photos...

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JConk007 on April 16, 2009, 09:31:50 PM
That Pizza looks great Peter!
I am close to Conn. but never had a clam pizza (new haven), and I love clams. The sauce sound fantastic too!
really nice. Hope to try that one someday myself.
JOhn
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 16, 2009, 11:48:57 PM
Peter, this is a nice pie. I was thrown by the appearance until I read about the white wine clam sauce. Very inventive, and I love shrimp on pie, so why not clams.

I can't believe you don't have a decent fish market there, then again I can't get the right flour here, so...

Well done mate.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 11:03:39 AM
I can't believe you don't have a decent fish market there

J,

At my local supermarket, which is a high-end store, I was told that I could order clams but they would be frozen and I would have to buy a several pound package. I would have to buy the entire package since they are not allowed to split packages. At around $8 a pound, that is more than I would want to use. There are no fish markets as such near me. In general, if I want really good seafood, I have to drive into Dallas.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 12:21:21 PM
Peter, that's too bad. I think of growing up on the Great South Bay where we'd go clamming on a friends dad's clam boat. You would get 200 little necks in an hour. The things we take for granted as a youth eh?

Strange looking boats, flat with a phone booth type stand up cabin. I can't locate many pics of them, perhaps boats of yesteryear, but I found this one covered for Christmas. Oddly it was taken on ... The Great South Bay! Ah the memories.
http://www.tsocktsarina.com/blog/images/2007/12/xmasclam.jpg (http://www.tsocktsarina.com/blog/images/2007/12/xmasclam.jpg) -pic



Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 17, 2009, 12:50:05 PM
Peter -

Those pies look terrific!  I'm glad you like my formulation.  I do wonder what effect the flour substitution had on the apparent hydration (as opposed to the actual percentage) because if you'll look at my Harvest King recipe, I used around 65 percent to get the same dough-handling properties that I get with around 60 for the All Trumps.  (I still don't get that by the way!)  I will tell you that the water I use is from the tap and warm.  I haven't measured the temp, but I'm saying above room temp though not 100 degrees like you would use to activate ADY.  Then I do get a pretty good counter rise before balling and refrigerating.  Sounds a bit different than your procedure, but your way seems to have worked out quite well and may even extend refrigerator life to allow for more flavor development.  Even with my warmer H2O, I've made it to nine days.  I wonder how far you could have gone!  :chef:

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 12:58:31 PM
J,

I know you expressed interest in Glutenboy's dough recipe. Having attempted it, I see no reason why you can't practice the recipe using hand kneading. I used a combination of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and vital wheat gluten (VWG) to get the same protein content as high-gluten flour but you should be able to use the KABF by itself, much as Glutenboy previously used the Harvest King (now Better for Bread) bread flour instead of high-gluten flour. One of the reasons I decided to try the Glutenboy recipe was to see if I could replicate his results in my particular oven, knowing full well that the same recipe will often turn out differently in the hands of different people. I concluded that achieving a stone temperature of around 600 degrees F is an important component of achieving good results with the recipe if the objective is to replicate Glutenboy's results. In fact, it occurred to me that one might be able to achieve a very good "elite" NY style pizza by using the same recipe as Glutenboy uses, or one similar to it using only flour, water, yeast and salt, combined with a suitably high stone temperature. The 302-gram dough ball weight I used (and Glutenboy apparently uses) translates to a thickness factor of 0.0692003 for a 14" pizza. That value falls within the NY "elite" range. A good test would be an 18" pizza based on that, or perhaps a slightly larger, thickness value.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 01:28:06 PM
Peter, you said a 302 gram ball for a 14", your formula below was for a single 14" pie. It was heavier but you said you trimmed it back to 302. So would you take that formula and multiply the ingredients by .857, as 12 divided by 14 is .857? (eg 192 grams of flour becomes 164 grams) Or would you make it as is and just weigh out 258 gram balls for a 12" as 302g x.857 is 258g ?

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):192.95 g 
Water (61.0526%):117.8 g
IDY (0.19817%):0.38 g
Salt (2.5%):4.82 g

   

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 17, 2009, 01:39:31 PM
Oh, by the way, I was at a friends house and whipped up some dough by feel with a measuring cup and spoons because they wanted to make pizza in a few days and asked me to leave them a couple of dough balls.  With no mixer and only AP flour, I decided to try to develop the gluten as much as I could.  I only had a packet of rapid-rise yeast so I dissolved a spare (scant half tsp for 2 dough balls) in some warm water and let it sit for 10 min or so, then added the flour incrementally, stirring vigorously with a wooden spoon until I saw the web of gluten forming.  I added the salt before I was done adding flour.  I just kept adding flour, switching from stirring to kneading as the dough formed, until it felt like I thought it should.  Then I gave it a counter rise (the small amount of yeast kept things in check nicely), balled it, oiled it, bagged it in 2 ziplocks and refrigerated.  I don't know the final outcome, but the dough certainly felt right (smooth and extensible), so I'm anxious to follow up with my friend and hear about the final product.  I guess my point here is that I did it without a mixer and I think I was able to achieve a comparable result.  With the ingredients on hand, I don't know what the end result could have been, but it's an interesting experiment in just how forgiving the oil-free dough can be.

PS - I just noticed that PizzaStriver had posted again.  Sorry if I'm being oblivious to your guys' conversation.  I have little to contribute on the scaling/thickness factor front.  I'd just ask you, Peter!   ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 01:47:03 PM
I'm glad you like my formulation.  I do wonder what effect the flour substitution had on the apparent hydration (as opposed to the actual percentage) because if you'll look at my Harvest King recipe, I used around 65 percent to get the same dough-handling properties that I get with around 60 for the All Trumps.  (I still don't get that by the way!)  I will tell you that the water I use is from the tap and warm.  I haven't measured the temp, but I'm saying above room temp though not 100 degrees like you would use to activate ADY.  Then I do get a pretty good counter rise before balling and refrigerating.  Sounds a bit different than your procedure, but your way seems to have worked out quite well and may even extend refrigerator life to allow for more flavor development.  Even with my warmer H2O, I've made it to nine days.  I wonder how far you could have gone!  :chef:

- GB

GB,

Sometimes I will try another member's dough recipe based on a beautiful photo made with a quality camera only to be disappointed by the results. But, that was not the case when I tried your recipe. The finished crust was very nicely balanced in terms of color, texture, chewiness, crispiness and softness and--because of the long fermentation time--flavor and aroma. I had a couple of reheated leftover slices for lunch today, along with a glass (well, maybe two) of the same wine (sauvignon blanc) I used to make the sauce for the clam/bacon pizza, and the crust maintained the same characteristics as the original. That is an important factor for me since I almost never eat an entire pizza at one sitting and I would prefer that the reheated slices be as good as the original slices. Part of the explanation is that the hydration of the dough is not excessive. As a result, the crust does not become soft, wet and floppy upon reheating, as I have found to be quite common when making pizzas from doughs with very high hydration (e.g., 70% or more).

The issue of hydration of different flours can be quite tricky. There are many factors (flour age, storage conditions, protein quality, humidity, etc.) that govern the hydration of flours but the method of preparing the dough can also be a factor. For example, I recently made a dough in which the instructions called for throwing everything into the mixer bowl of a stand mixer and mixing at a given speed. When I did that, the mixer tried to walk off of the counter. I knew that the hydration wasn't the reason because I had used the same hydration many times before. My practice is to add the flour gradually to the mixer bowl, which rarely taxes my stand mixer.

Using vital wheat gluten, semolina and other such ingredients along with a basic flour can also affect the hydration. Sometimes when using these ingredients, I find it necessary to adjust the hydration of the dough because those ingredients have somewhat different absorption characteristics than ordinary white flour. A simple way to deal with this is to just increase the hydration of the dough formulation up front by about 1%. That will usually be sufficient.

As I noted, I scaled your recipe down to a single dough ball. That small amount of dough will ferment differently than a large bulk amount of dough that is to be divided and scaled at some point into several dough balls. Water temperature will also affect the extent and rate of fermentation. If the water used is cold, for example, right out of the refrigerator, and the amount of yeast is also on the low side, it should be possible to get a window of usability that is quite long. The finished dough temperature may be lower than what is usually recommended but the dough will still work but not really be ready to use for a few or several days because of insufficient fermentation. I think I could have gotten at least a few more days out of the dough I made, maybe even a total of two weeks. It all comes down to using small amounts of yeast and achieving low dough temperatures during fermentation. Once someone masters these simple principles, you are in control, not the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 02:11:27 PM
Peter, you said a 302 gram ball for a 14", your formula below was for a single 14" pie. It was heavier but you said you trimmed it back to 302. So would you take that formula and multiply the ingredients by .857, as 12 divided by 14 is .857? (eg 192 grams of flour becomes 164 grams) Or would you make it as is and just weigh out 258 gram balls for a 12" as 302g x.857 is 258g ?

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):192.95 g  
Water (61.0526%):117.8 g
IDY (0.19817%):0.38 g
Salt (2.5%):4.82 g

J,

When I use one of the dough calculating tools, I almost always use a bowl residue compensation. I don't believe that Glutenboy uses such a compensation. But, since he indicated that a typical finished dough ball weight is around 300-302 grams, I simply trimmed the dough weight I got to 302 grams. If you are interested in making a 12" pizza rather than a 14" pizza, the easiest way to determine the quantities of ingredients necessary for the 12" size is to use the thickness factor (0.0692) in the expanded dough calculating tool along with a 12" size and the baker's percents as previously used (your approach cannot be used because the relationships aren't linear). For example, doing this with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html yields the following:

KABF/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
138.88 g  |  4.9 oz | 0.31 lbs
84.79 g  |  2.99 oz | 0.19 lbs
0.28 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.09 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
227.42 g | 8.02 oz | 0.5 lbs | TF = 0.07093
Note: For a single 12" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.0692; bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

You will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.5% in the above table. That is a value that I typically use for a hand kneaded dough because the dough losses using hand kneading tend to be higher than when using a machine. Also, if using VWG with the KABF, you will have to calculate the amount of VWG you will need to achieve the desired overall protein content (14%) of the flour/VWG blend. I use November's Mixed Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do these kinds of calculations. Of course, you can use the KABF all by itself, as previously noted.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 02:33:10 PM
OK! Thanks for the reconfig. Peter. As this takes days to  rest I'll do a 3 ball batch now, so the above x3.
It's interesting this does need sugar to sit days and days like Lehmann's does, I assume it's the low yeast that makes that the case. .27 teaspoon for 3 balls is low indeed. I also whisk the batter and sift the flour, so all I can do is hope the two increase the gluten of KABF enough to make it good!

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 02:50:35 PM
J,

All I had to do to get the quantities of ingredients for three dough balls was to change one entry in the expanded dough calculating tool:

Flour (100%):
Water (61.0526%):
IDY (0.19817%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.75077%):
Single Ball:
416.65 g  |  14.7 oz | 0.92 lbs
254.38 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
10.42 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.87 tsp | 0.62 tbsp
682.27 g | 24.07 oz | 1.5 lbs | TF = 0.07093
227.42 g | 8.02 oz | 0.5 lbs

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 02:54:43 PM
It's interesting this does need sugar to sit days and days like Lehmann's does, I assume it's the low yeast that makes that the case.

J,

That is correct, along with using low dough temperatures. There is less yeast to consume the natural sugars extracted from the flour during fermentation, leaving more residual sugar for crust coloration at the time of baking. The Lehmann recipe is intended for commercial use where operators aren't interested in waiting a week or more to use the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 02:57:36 PM
I mixed the salt and cold cold spring water, then sifted my 416 gs of flour. Instead of sifting yeast this time I sprinkled it in the flour to ensure no loss in the sifter. I Whisked 1/2 the flour/yeast combo heavily, completely smooth, then added 1/2 the remaining flour and whisked more. This was a tough 2-3 minute whisk as it's between batter and balling, but I want to get as much gluten up as I can, smooth and webbing at this point. My whisk isn't very happy, but I ignore its pleas for mercy. Now I'm letting it sit, call it an auto-rest or a 'catching of ones breath'. It's covered and resting but I'm not waiting 20 minutes, just enough to rest it and me. I'll let you know how hand kneading went soon...

And yes, I see your x3 matches mine, I got something right!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MWTC on April 17, 2009, 03:35:53 PM
Glutenboy,

I guess you forgot to give my formulation a try.   :'(

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 17, 2009, 05:08:47 PM
MWTC -

I have not forsaken you.  The fact is that except for that impromptu dough I made at my friends house, I have not cooked a pizza since the last pics I posted.  I will do it.  I swear by Grepthar's Hammer.  ???

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 05:54:15 PM
Peter, and GB, this dough hand kneads beautifully. I recommended it for all hand kneaders. I didn't leave any on the side for additional use, as I forgot to, I dumped it all in and got lucky. The spoon stage was short and sticky, so right to the board for the work. Sticky as it was all I had to do was flour my hands and the board once. It never needed more flour, stayed very nice and pulled, folded and pressed great. After 10 mins it still had that slight lumpy thing happening though, so I did the magic trick. I covered it, and 5 minutes later smooth as silk. I have no idea why this happens, but leave a lumpy dough alone for 5 minutes and it's like a baby's you know what. Then 2-3 more minutes of kneading and done.

I started with cold water as opposed to room temp as I was hand kneading, and more importantly I whisked the water/salt and batter a lot. Seems this would warm it up, and it did. I ask your thoughts on the rise by site, please see b4 and after pics below, but it was actually more that I expected based on the low yeast. After the 2 hr rise it handled like a dream, smooth and easy to work. I ended up with three 215 gram balls... now well oiled, contained and sleeping in the fridge.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 06:43:59 PM
After 10 mins it still had that slight lumpy thing happening though, so I did the magic trick. I covered it, and 5 minutes later smooth as silk. I have no idea why this happens, but leave a lumpy dough alone for 5 minutes and it's like a baby's you know what.

J,

During autolyse and similar rest periods, there are proteolytic enzymes in the dough that attack the gluten structure and softens it. You can read more about the phenomenon, and others as well, at Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2632.msg22856.html#msg22856.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 07:05:04 PM
Wow
"autolyse" means self-destruction," and that's actually good. Great read, I learned a lot there.

Do you think I was right leaving water cold as I was hand kneading, thus warming myself? My fear was too warm would make the yeast react fast and not allow the 5-8 day rest.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 17, 2009, 07:14:51 PM
If you used the same percentage of yeast I do, then I think your warming fears are unfounded.  I use warm water and get a good counter rise before refrigerating, and I am still good at 8 days.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 07:19:55 PM
If you used the same percentage of yeast I do, then I think your warming fears are unfounded.  I use warm water and get a good counter rise before refrigerating, and I am still good at 8 days.  :chef:

GB, well I did, so I hope I warmed it up enough not to slow it. Again I thought it rose ok based on low yeast. Here's to hoping!

Great hand kneading dough, It handles as well if not better than Lehmann's by hand. It took a few minutes and a fast rest longer, but really nice. I'm excited! I am also taking note of your "it got better with age, a little harder to handle, but flavor wise" to paraphrase. So I'm in no rush.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 17, 2009, 07:31:29 PM
Just give it a nice bit of time to warm on the counter before you stretch the skin.  It'll do some rising then as well and you'll be good.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2009, 07:42:08 PM
Do you think I was right leaving water cold as I was hand kneading, thus warming myself? My fear was too warm would make the yeast react fast and not allow the 5-8 day rest.

J,

I agree with Glutenboy. I think you will be fine. I have used water temperatures of around 45-50 degrees F, which most would consider heretical and blasphemous, and it worked. It just pushes out the window of usability. It actually takes a lot to bring a good yeast down. When I made Glutenboy's dough, it took two days of cold fermentation before the spacing between the two poppy seeds increased. It increased by all of 1/16". That represented a dough expansion of around 20%. Even with calibrated eyeballs, you would not have known that the dough expanded in volume. And you would have been wrong to conclude that the dough was dead. After 3 days, the spacing between the two poppy seeds increased by 1/8". From that point, I knew I was safe and that the dough would be fine. The whole exercise does show you, however, that you can't always rely on your senses. I used the poppy seeds as my eyes.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on April 17, 2009, 09:00:47 PM
Peter is dead on. I did Glutenboy's recipe a few weeks back and after 4-5 days I almost tossed it thinking I did something wrong and killed it! I figured what the hell, might as well use it and see how it goes. Turned out great with lots of blisters and the texture was fantastic. This dough will fool you just going by looks.
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 17, 2009, 10:48:43 PM
Just give it a nice bit of time to warm on the counter before you stretch the skin.  It'll do some rising then as well and you'll be good.

Excellent, I can see that indeed, and thanks for the help man.

Peter and Jon, thanks for the pov's and experience of what I should, or shouldn't, see in the days ahead. I was not worried too much as it did move in the 2 hrs. My fear was Peter and GB saying "COLD WATER!? We said room temp for a reason, you freakin' killed it! Whatzamatta you, what are you stupid or somethin' ??" Ya know, cuz they always talk like that.
 ;)

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 20, 2009, 04:00:22 PM
J
If you can't find a source of All Trumps, you may be able to use just bread flour or possibly bread flour that has been supplemented with vital wheat gluten to yield a blend that has the same protein content (14.2%) as the All Trumps. You might also want to know that Glutenboy himself used bread flour, specifically, Harvest King bread flour, to make the pizza shown at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4565.msg38409.html#msg38409. The Harvest King flour has since been replaced at the retail level by General Mills by the Better for Bread flour. That flour is widely available in supermarkets.

As I'm venturing out into the world this evening, to the store, I did research on the above. I'm finding that KABF that I use seems to have 12.8% protein and the HKBF (Made by general mills) seems to come in at 12%. I therefore have to attribute the great look of the pie you link above to higher temps over higher gluten.

To update: After 3 days the KABF balls have gone from tiny (nothing touching the sides of container) to spread in Lehmann form. I am also seeing small side profile bubbles already, making me think degassing might be in order in a couple days. Now I wish I had not oiled them, as GB also says in link above, as they may have to be re-balled and formed... we'll see!   ;D

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2009, 04:17:32 PM
J,

I lightly oiled my dough ball but did not see any need to degas or re-ball it. I left the dough as is until I was ready to use it.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 20, 2009, 04:22:00 PM
Unless they're swelling dangerously, I vote to let 'em ride and see what happens!  >:D

PS - When I was doing the degassing, I was also using more yeast, so if it's just small bubbles on the side of the container, don't do anything.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 20, 2009, 04:53:34 PM
Oh yes, I concur with you both. I planned on waiting a couple days and seeing. As you say (GB) they got better the longer they sat, though harder to handle, so I'm shooting to make at least one go a full 7 days. May eat one on day 5 to see the difference. My thought came from comparing to Peter and Jon's non moving dough after 3 days. Mine's moving, but it might just stay there, so I'm keeping an eye on it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 23, 2009, 08:02:44 PM
6 day rise: Great results.

The dough ball was smaller than the usual I make, from the start, and though it spread out in container it did stop there. After 3 hrs out it rose a little. It was very loose and floppy to work with, no aerial throws for this one, but I could see it was light with nice bubbling. Stretching it to 12" was a challenge, but I got it there once on the peel. The flavor was excellent, really thin yet robust. Not tough at all. Good char, beautiful NY puff/crackle rim, and crispy with good stand out while light as air under cheese. An experience that leaves you actually saying this is worth the wait!

I'll make the other 2 over next 2 days, I'll post if there's any noticeable difference from today. I almost want to make another tonight, it's that good. (Plus I got up at 6am to make a rockin' slow sauce for the occasion, always makes it even better  ;D )

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 23, 2009, 08:12:03 PM
Kudos, Pal!  That made me hungry!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 23, 2009, 08:20:20 PM
Kudos, Pal!  That made me hungry!  :chef:

Thanks man, you really have a great one here. Really different from Lehmann post 2 day + sugar dough. I'm not knocking it at all, it's great, but keeping sugar out and going 6 days with the low yeast.. yeah really nice.

I mean I'll never be able to do this...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7761.0;attach=12640;image (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7761.0;attach=12640;image)
I'm convinced you had angels come down to help make that or something, but with what I work with I'm getting closer and closer! Very anxious to taste day 7 and 8!

Salut'
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on May 08, 2009, 09:45:26 AM


I started with cold water as opposed to room temp as I was hand kneading...

Well that was the first time...

I made a 3 ball batch before my wonderful trip!  ;D This time I used room temp, and I discovered this to be the link to the phenomenon seen in GB's first page. The dough sat unattended for 6.5 days, one made on day 6, two made on day 7. In both cases, even more on day 7, the pimples appeared! Hundreds of 'em! It was like being in the waiting room of a dermatology clinic on "Free Clearasil Day". I didn't get pics, but the crust was the best yet. So light, flavorful, and amazing.

So the factoid is: Room temp water = pimples / Cold water = clear skin.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
So the factoid is: Room temp water = pimples / Cold water = clear skin.


J,

I doubt that that factoid holds water, warm or cold. I have used ice cold water many times and gotten fermentation blisters. There may be many reasons behind getting such blisters, and even the experts don't fully understand the phenomenon (see, for example, Tom Lehmann's posts at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=42217#42217), but in my experience the most common cause of the blistering is long fermentation times. For more on this subject, see the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7740.0.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on May 08, 2009, 10:22:48 AM
Yes, it seems some don't like the blisters and actually try to avoid them. I like them though, as the over fermentation seemed to make for a better flavor, almost sour dough like.

Either way Peter, as to it not holding water, on one side I can say the over fermenting was aided by the warmer water speeding up the process early on. On the other hand, as to your cold water blistering, it might have also taken place during a long counter top rest. (?) In any case over fermenting rocks if you ask me. 

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2009, 10:37:56 AM
On the other hand, as to your cold water blistering, it might have also taken place during a long counter top rest. (?)

J,

It was cold fermentation over a course of several days. I used the cold water to extend the window of usability of the dough, not to get blisters. They just came with the territory.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 02, 2009, 05:05:42 PM
^on that note...


I GOT BLISTERS ON MY FINGERS PIZZA!

And I had my vegetable today, mom would be proud.  ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on June 09, 2009, 04:34:30 PM
Is that another one with my dough?  :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 16, 2009, 05:14:52 PM
Is that another one with my dough?  :o

I wanted to wait for this day to reply to this, as I knew this day was coming...

Yeah man, here's 16 more just like it!  ;D



Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 17, 2009, 09:44:01 AM
Hey guys, I'm in trouble here maybe, please advise!! As you can see above I got 12 new glad containers, $4.50 for 4, to add to my original 4 green ziplocks. Maybe it's the smallness of them, but yesterday when I took them out for this picture many had popped open, and the rest were under extreme pressure. This was not the case in the 4 larger ziplocks, just the new rounds. I opened them all to release gas yesterday and this morning a few popped again, the rest again under pressure. The ones that had popped yesterday appear bigger, you can perhaps visibly tell which ones they are. I am concerned as I have 3 days to go here, and I don't know what to do!  :'( :'(

Any advice? Degassing at this stage? Keep putting tops back on and hope for the best? Very stressed here...

 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Tbombs34 on June 17, 2009, 09:57:33 AM
I have the same containers and have the same issue when I use an extended cold fermentation period.  Each lid will usually pop on a daily basis.  I have just been letting them pop and resealing them as they do with no adverse effects.  However, I remember reading a thread in which Pete-zza posted saying that he had poked a small hole in the lids of some of his containers.  That may be an option.  I am likely going to just buy some better containers.  It's amazing how much money this pizza habit can wind up costing.   :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on June 17, 2009, 10:04:24 AM
I use the exact same containers, and the exact same thing happens to me on a regular basis.  I just burp the lids like tupperware at least daily and put them back.  It's never been a problem as far as how things turned out though; just a pain to do when there's lots of them...   ::)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Cass on June 17, 2009, 10:13:57 AM
I just put a small hole in the lid of each one, and it works well.  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 17, 2009, 11:16:43 AM
Tbombs, Glutenboy and Cass, THANKS! Aaaaaaah, I feel better. I was thinking of all the open air between reseals that concerned me, but as long as I'm on it 2x a day it seems I'll be ok! The good news is they aren't blowing up out of the containers. Pinholes are not a bad idea, might try that too.

Thanks all,
Jim
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: parallei on June 17, 2009, 02:30:49 PM
I use the round glad containers also.  I too worried about air exposure when I found the tops popped off the next day.  On the other hand, I worried about loosing moisture through the holes I had punched in the lids.  All of this worry is probably unwarranted.  However, I now put the lids on the containers, then take a small bit of plastic wrap, place it over the holes and tape one edge of the wrap.  I then have “mini-flap valves”, sort of.  My wife finds this very strange and unnecessary.  No doubt she’s right…..
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on June 17, 2009, 02:44:38 PM
I use the round glad containers also.  I too worried about air exposure when I found the tops popped off the next day.  On the other hand, I worried about loosing moisture through the holes I had punched in the lids.  All of this worry is probably unwarranted.  However, I now put the lids on the containers, then take a small bit of plastic wrap, place it over the holes and tape one edge of the wrap.  I then have “mini-flap valves”, sort of.  My wife finds this very strange and unnecessary.  No doubt she’s right…..

Paul,

I use mainly low-yeast dough formulations so I rarely have a lid pop off on me. I use only a single hole (about 1/8" diameter) in the lids. The moisture generally condenses in the inside surface of the lid although on occasion a bit will drip onto the dough. I also oil the dough balls so that they don't get too dry. Eventually, the oil gets absorbed into the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: ThunderStik on June 17, 2009, 05:16:32 PM
I put my balls ( ;D >:D) in SS bowls and cover the dough with plastic wrap. I dont cover the bowls, I actually put the wrap down on the balls and then up the sides of the bowl. If you put a little oil in the bowl and spread it up the sides with your fingers the plastic wrap will stick to the sides of the bowl and rise with the dough.

This also does away with the skin that can form on top of the balls.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: stupidhaiku on June 17, 2009, 07:40:50 PM
That happens to me occasionally with my glad containers (look to be the same size as yours).  If you're refrigerating your dough, the majority of the expansion is likely taking place before they have a chance to cool down, so you might try refrigerating with the lids lightly placed on top for a few hours before sealing them.  If you're at room temp, well, I've proofed dough for up to 36 hours at room temp with the lid only lightly resting on the top of the container, with no visible dehydration.  If you're up for experimenting some oiled saran wrap in between the bowl and the lid would probably let gas escape, while resealing before any dehydration can occur. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 18, 2009, 12:27:49 AM
Paul,

I use mainly low-yeast dough formulations so I rarely have a lid pop off on me. I use only a single hole (about 1/8" diameter) in the lids. The moisture generally condenses in the inside surface of the lid although on occasion a bit will drip onto the dough. I also oil the dough balls so that they don't get too dry. Eventually, the oil gets absorbed into the dough.

Peter

Well this dough is pretty low yeast, no? Maybe what you are saying is since you put the holes in all containers anyway the low yeast doughs rarely pop them. These balls are generously oiled as the recipe calls for, so I'm hoping they calm down by tomorrow. If not it's gonna be the holes indeed. Some 'un-lidded" ones have blown up way beyond normal, they may not make the 5 days. All in all I learn so far from this to use the big square ziplocks. They have more room, and tighter seals, for a 230g ball to do what it wants to do without blowing lids off.

EDIT: In the spirit of "24"...

The following happened between 7 and 8 AM.

Degassed 4 balls due to huge air bubbles, reshaped and re-contained, still no word from Kim, this is the longest day of my entire life.

ding CHNK ding CHNK ding CHNK....
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on June 18, 2009, 09:01:02 AM
Jim,

Even before putting holes in the lids I did not have a problem with low-yeasted doughs popping a lid. It did happen with high-yeasted doughs, however. The lids for my metal containers do not have holes in them but they fit so tight onto the rest of the containers that they have never been blown off by fermenting doughs (again, mostly low-yeast doughs). I have sometimes wondered whether that was a causative factor in the long-lived doughs I have gotten using such containers. Using metal containers (I use old cookie tins) for fermenting Glutenboy's dough might be a good test. The downside is that you can't see what is happening to the doughs in such containers.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on June 22, 2009, 09:35:57 AM
'Twas a rock and roll bash where everyone's smashed! ... and well fed!

What an experience, as the most I ever did was 4. Probably all but 2 or 3 doughs were degassed at some point, and I know that I should have asked Peter for scaling the recipe as I already had added to everything after making GB's pies the first time. My first balls were 217 gs for 12" and by adding a few %'s I'd made them 230's. In my translation to 4 at a time I think I messed up the yeast a bit. That said the doughs also came out in a warm kitchen and sat for 2 hrs, this helped the wilted blobby ones that were degassed the night before, but also made everything loose and sticky! Not many aerial tosses, 1 to be exact.

I was worried that with 18 peeps there I would never keep up, but with the salads and sides it was great as all mingled about and for 2 plus hours there was always hot pies coming out. This was praised actually as it created a very social scene, but there where never more than 2 pies at a time. My oven recoup time per pie was how long it took to make the next one, but always on/offing the oven to ensure element burned trying to keep it at 550. of the 16 14 where made, 2 lost in battle, one frozen for later experiment.

Reviews where excellent, I was really proud of that as you can tell when there being sincere. "There's only one wood fired place in my Connecticut town that's as good as this", The texture is perfect, very tender and crispy at the same time", "never had sauce this good on pizza, best sauce ever" was commonly heard, and one bread maker who has a 5 year old starter she bakes with even said "What culture do you use". She was shocked there was none.

Not many pics, I was at the oven for 2.5 hrs straight, then did bbq in the evening hrs! Here's some with some pizzas visible though! I owe this all to this board, GB, Pete-zaa ( we gotta show that guy some appreciation someday) and all the fine people here.  :'( < tear of joy.





Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on October 23, 2009, 11:16:37 AM
Jim,

Even before putting holes in the lids I did not have a problem with low-yeasted doughs popping a lid.

Peter

Oh yeah, just to let you know (months later) the pinholes indeed solved the problem. I've been meaning to say this.  ;D

Also this thread just can't die, at 5-8 days this dough is just too good to not be tried by newbies!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on October 23, 2009, 04:35:31 PM
How gratifying!  You know, I haven't done any experimenting with cultures so I have very little base for comparison, but the complexity you get after 6 days or so does seem to me to rival any artisan bread I've tried.  I'd love to do a side-by-side between this recipe at 8 days and some of the favorite starters to really test it out.  I'm just glad you're getting so much enjoyment out of it.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on October 24, 2009, 12:50:43 PM
I'd like to see that side by side too, in particular cooked at 550-600 degrees. I'd guess they are similar until you go to Neapolitan type temps.

All I can say is yours is the best pizza I've made, hands down, so I am the grateful one. As for starters I never tried to make one either. Mostly because what I've asked about, and read, here at 550 it's sort of pointless. Then if you look at pics like this it doesn't exactly inspire words like "yeah, sign me up, looks great!"
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Hw8a5d-aS8Q/RaHIRDxKqmI/AAAAAAAAACo/28-fX0XtqN0/s320/sourdough_starter_day3.jpg (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Hw8a5d-aS8Q/RaHIRDxKqmI/AAAAAAAAACo/28-fX0XtqN0/s320/sourdough_starter_day3.jpg)

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 01, 2009, 06:06:23 PM
GB, Hey man I made a 4 ball batch in my new spiffy mixer 9 days ago. I ate them at 5 and 7 days, and the last one today at 9. I don't know if you've gone out that far but the good news is it lives on, and gets even better with age. In opening the container today I was taken back by the lovely fermentation scent that filled the air. The beer-like smell even reinforces your test idea above all the more. To really put it further to the test I took the container out of fridge at 11:30, leaving dough contained. At 3:00 I cranked oven and took it to floured board, dusted and covered with wrap. At 4:30 it went in, so it was out for 5 hours after a 9 day sleep. As you can see the bubbles remained the same, and the rim and crust were fabulous! It's just a plain 13" cheese so I'll just show the before and rim shots.

As to the new mixer so far I see absolutely no difference between it and hand kneading in the quality of the doughs, but it's easier so...

Anyway go 9 days! (If you haven't already)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 01, 2009, 06:10:45 PM
That looks beautiful.  Don't know that I've ever gone past day 8 yet, but it's only been because I couldn't wait for the pizza anymore!  I have however noticed that a nice long counter rise at the end is the perfect finishing touch.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 01, 2009, 06:15:32 PM
Thanks man. Yes I agree. I have come to realize 0 chill left, where it's almost falling apart and you have to stretch it delicately, is a big key.

In the fridge there's 0 difference in appearance from 7-9 days. Lump of slump, so that said I'm wondering what say 12 days might do.

The last line is not factoring in the non pin holed containers for the above party when the tops blew off and I had to degas every ball, but I have not degassed once since. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 10:47:50 AM
Hey Peter! This is my kicked up 10% formula for three 12" pies, I had added 10% to get them to 230 grams or so. Can you tell me what this would be based on this for a single 15"? Or even for a 3 ball batch like this.

Flour (100%):446.65 g  |  14.7 oz | 0.92 lbs
Water (61.0526%):279.38 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (0.19817%) 0.30 tsp
Salt (2.5%):2 tsp

Thanks a million!
J

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2009, 01:21:11 PM
This is my kicked up 10% formula for three 12" pies, I had added 10% to get them to 230 grams or so. Can you tell me what this would be based on this for a single 15"? Or even for a 3 ball batch like this.

Flour (100%):446.65 g  |  14.7 oz | 0.92 lbs
Water (61.0526%):279.38 g  |  8.97 oz | 0.56 lbs
IDY (0.19817%) 0.30 tsp
Salt (2.5%):2 tsp

Jim,

I am not sure what you have given me. Is it the actual dough formulation you used to make three 12" pizzas? If so, there appears to be an error in the hydration. Specifically, if I take 61.0526% of the formula water, I get 272.69143 grams of water, not 279.38 grams. I will await clarification before proceeding further.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 01:27:24 PM
Peter, yes 3 ball. It's the below x 3 plus 10% as I was nowhere hear 227 gs with this. I added the 10% long ago and I got about 234 g balls for a 12".

KABF/VWG Blend (100%):138.88 g  |  4.9 oz | 0.31 lbs
Water (61.0526%):84.79 g  |  2.99 oz | 0.19 lbs
IDY (0.19817%):0.28 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.09 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):3.47 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (163.75077%):227.42 g | 8.02 oz | 0.5 lbs | TF = 0.07093
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 01:52:15 PM
trying this one now...

Ok, so based on original, not kicked up 10%, for a 12" I get this for three 15"...

Flour (100%):    643.54 g  |  22.7 oz | 1.42 lbs
Water (61.0526%):    392.9 g  |  13.86 oz | 0.87 lbs
IDY (0.19817%):    1.28 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):    16.09 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.88 tsp | 0.96 tbsp
Total (163.75077%):   1053.8 g | 37.17 oz | 2.32 lbs | TF = 0.0701148
Single Ball:   351.27 g | 12.39 oz | 0.77 lbs

2% residue.

Thanks for all your help today Peter.  :D

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 21, 2009, 02:58:04 PM
Today's Lunch

I put the numbers in the dough calculator for two 15" pies, and I made the first one today. The interesting changes here were A, I did a 30 minute rest at 1st batter stage as opposed to 5, and B, I made the first one after only 3 days. I had also made this before in a 12" with the new mixer only, no hand kneading, and I noticed bubble reduction in the stretched dough. This time I added a couple minutes of stretching and folding. I'm a firm believer, still, that this...well gets air in there.

When I grew up as a kid there was a place in Long Island N.Y. named Mike's Pizza. What I loved about them was the ultra thin crust that just crackled in your mouth, lighter than air, you could hold it by the rim and it barely bent. Just amazing pizza. (and they had a great jukebox) Well my friends today, with G.B.'s formula, I have stumbled into a recreation of this pizza! It's a very proud day for me, really. I was shocked it was even any good after only 3 days, never mind having to pop over sized bubbles all over the dough once stretched. It didn't want to go to 15", but some aerial tosses got me darn close. Let me also say when you toss a 15" it's a lot different than tossing a 12". I know you pro's are laughing at that one, but to me this is a notable difference. It looks like it's about 28" in the air until you catch it again. Anyway I made a point of going light sauce, shredding frozen cheese to get it very fine, and just topping with pepperoni. I was on a N.Y. mission, well... mission accomplished.
 ;D

In closing, let me say again, there's something very special about this formula folks. The ultra low yeast, no oil, it's ability to live (and keep getting better) up to 9 days without sugar, and now I learn it's great at 3 with the slight adjustments above, it's practically magical.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on November 21, 2009, 03:13:14 PM
Today's Lunch

I put the numbers in the dough calculator for two 15" pies, and I made the first one today. The interesting changes here were A, I did a 30 minute rest at 1st batter stage as opposed to 5, and B, I made the first one after only 3 days. I had also made this before in a 12" with the new mixer only, no hand kneading, and I noticed bubble reduction in the stretched dough. This time I added a couple minutes of stretching and folding. I'm a firm believer, still, that this...well gets air in there.

When I grew up as a kid there was a place in Long Island N.Y. named Mike's Pizza. What I loved about them was the ultra thin crust that just crackled in your mouth, lighter than air, you could hold it by the rim and it barely bent. Just amazing pizza. (and they had a great jukebox) Well my friends today, with G.B.'s formula, I have stumbled into a recreation of this pizza! It's a very proud day for me, really. I was shocked it was even any good after only 3 days, never mind having to pop over sized bubbles all over the dough once stretched. It didn't want to go to 15", but some aerial tosses got me darn close. Let me also say when you toss a 15" it's a lot different than tossing a 12". I know you pro's are laughing at that one, but to me this is a notable difference. It looks like it's about 28" in the air until you catch it again. Anyway I made a point of going light sauce, shredding frozen cheese to get it very fine, and just topping with pepperoni. I was on a N.Y. mission, well... mission accomplished.
 ;D

In closing, let me say again, there's something very special about this formula folks. The ultra low yeast, no oil, it's ability to live (and keep getting better) up to 9 days without sugar, and now I learn it's great at 3 with the slight adjustments above, it's practically magical.


Beautiful!

But when I looked at the first pic I almost strained my neck so I rotated your pie a little. The rotation didn't make it any bigger, though  ;D

Anyway, great job, Bro!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on November 21, 2009, 03:15:01 PM
Strange...the post came up twice.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 21, 2009, 03:18:03 PM
Thanks Mike, and hahaha. Well that's my new 16" tray, so yeah once it got off the peel it was about 14  again...but it was 15 for a little while! Hey, btw, you have been immortalized in my signature.  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 21, 2009, 03:18:53 PM
Strange...the post came up twice.

It's the magic of the formula.  :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on November 21, 2009, 03:22:45 PM
Thanks Mike, and hahaha. Well that's my new 16" tray, so yeah once it got off the peel it was about 14  again...but it was 15 for a little while! Hey, btw, you have been immortalized in my signature.  :-D

Does that mean I'm famous now??? If that's the case then I'm accepting requests for autographs now...Barry Bonds-style, which means $50 a pop.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 21, 2009, 03:28:45 PM
Does that mean I'm famous now??? If that's the case then I'm accepting requests for autographs now...Barry Bonds-style, which means $50 a pop.

Sure, you became famous when you filmed your family eating your pizza, and you said those words! Yep, we have it on tape to prove it...

Or at least your words inspired my writers embellishment to say you said them, so close enough.  :-D

Meanwhile see that bad boy thinness!? A 'crackling good' pie man.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 10, 2010, 08:42:04 PM
Made some pizzas for a party last night.  Standard GB formulation with All-Trumps after 6 days in the fridge.  Two of the pics are basically Margherita with sausage, and the third is a white pie with a blend of Provolone, Fresh Mozzarella, Pecorino Romano, Parm Reggiano, and goat cheese.  It also had mushrooms, fresh garlic, spinach, rosemary, thyme, and a drizzle of evoo.  The lighting came out very yellow so the pics aren't the best, but it was good stuff.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norma427 on January 10, 2010, 09:03:29 PM
Glutenboy,

Very tasty looking pies.  The crust must have been amazing after the long ferment.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 10, 2010, 09:30:06 PM
Yeah, the crust drew a lot of comments re taste and texture.  The long fermentation definitely lends a depth of flavor.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 11, 2010, 01:25:24 AM
Here's one more shot of the white pie bubbling in the oven.  Mmmmmm!!!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 11, 2010, 03:31:42 AM
Here's some pics from tonight.  This time the oven's mine and the dough is at 7 days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 11, 2010, 03:33:55 AM
And some more...
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: brayshaw on January 11, 2010, 08:15:56 AM
Glutenboy, those look incredible buddy!!! wow!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 11, 2010, 12:44:43 PM
Thanks.  I just discovered the macro setting on my camera!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: scottm on January 21, 2010, 02:34:54 PM
I've been lurking on this site for just shy of a month and have made a few pizzas with pretty good success. I must admit, some of the pizzas in this thread are the best i've ever seen and i can only imagine how yummy they must be!

Scott
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pizza!! on January 25, 2010, 08:32:52 PM
Thanks.  I just discovered the macro setting on my camera!  ;D

Macro FTW!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on January 31, 2010, 05:08:44 PM
I've been lurking on this site for just shy of a month and have made a few pizzas with pretty good success. I must admit, some of the pizzas in this thread are the best i've ever seen and i can only imagine how yummy they must be!

Well welcome, and right you are. Even at 3-4 days it's superior to most home oven formulas.

GB, as I said here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10021.msg87604.html#msg87604 I made that as is for 15, about 350g balls in the end, and it did stretch to 15 fine...once 00 was no longer used.  :P Back to basics, King Arthur's unbleached.

I also decided that I would use a bunch of toppings on a great crust with great cheese and sauce. (read around, you'll get it) So after 4 days I did a "Meat Lovers & Garlic" special. Proper cooked sauce, heavier garlic for a change. Fresh loaf mozzarella, Boar's Head Genoa salami, Boar's Head ham, pepperoni, ground sweet Italian sausage cooked in aforementioned sauce, fresh garlic, fresh basil. Great pie, nice to be back.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 31, 2010, 11:15:37 PM
Fantastic!  The corincione looks lighter than air.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 06, 2010, 12:58:34 AM
Glutenboy, if you don't mind me asking, at what temperature/time/place in the oven did you cook these pies. They look wonderful.

Think it's achievable with an electric oven? Or with AP flour instead of bread?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 06, 2010, 07:32:49 PM
Hotsawce -

I have a gas oven with the broiler underneath so I can just crank it up to broil and basically the oven just stays on and keeps heating.  The tiles go on the rack in the lowest position and in my oven, this setup works beautifully.  Every oven is different, so as far as rack position, you'll have to find the sweet spot.  If you have an older electric oven controlled completely by dials, you're in luck.  Set the cooking dial to BAKE and the temperature dial to BROIL.  I have used this to great effect at friends houses and gotten some beautiful char.  If you have a newer digital electric oven, you'll have a tougher time tricking it into giving you that dangerous temperature we need.  I hear they have a calibration feature which will allow you to coax out a few extra degrees, but I've never tried.  There are also many pyromaniacs on the board who have filed the lock off of their oven door so that they can cook on the CLEAN cycle.  Never tried that either, but I'm certainly not above doing it if the pizza in my head told me to.  I've never gotten a temperature reading.  I bought one of those dial oven thermometers once, but the numbers burned off so I assume it was pretty hot.  Two words of advice.  First, preheat the stone or tiles for at least an hour.  Second, don't assume the bottom rack is the sweet spot.  I've used home electric ovens where the lowest rack burned the bottom of the pizza black by the time the top cooked.  In that oven, second position from lowest was ideal.  Trial and error is what it's all about.  Now go burn your house down.   ;D

- GB

ps - I'd go with bread flour myself, because higher protein content seems to improve coloration, but what the hell.  Make a batch with each and compare.  My greatest discoveries have usually been accidents.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 06, 2010, 08:53:21 PM
Unfortunately, my oven died right as I was trying the "under the broiler" method. Didn't even get the pizza onto the stone  :'(

On the bright side, I'll be getting a new oven very shortly, and it'll likely be electric, so I'll be messing with the ideal spot to cook the pie. I just hope they come out half as good looking as the first pie in the thread!

   After I make a few NY style pizzas, I'll probably want to figure out the "under the broiler" method again.

Thanks for the information...can't wait to try it all!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 07, 2010, 01:10:52 AM
One more question; do you ever punch down the dough or do anything once you've put it in a container, sealed it, and stuck it in the fridge?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on February 07, 2010, 11:51:25 AM
...do you ever punch down the dough or do anything once you've put it in a container, sealed it, and stuck it in the fridge?

I'll field this one GB, nope. This doesn't rise much, even with the 2 hr room temp rest before balling. Very low yeast and all. You just do the bulk rise in oiled covered bowl, divide, a couple hand kneads to each. Then ball, oil everything, and put to sleep.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 07, 2010, 02:47:17 PM
Thanks, NYPS.   ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 07, 2010, 10:27:21 PM
Okay, guys. I think I'm going to make the dough tomorrow so it'll be ready by the time my oven is fixed.

I don't have a kitchen scale or measuring spoons, so I'm going to be ball-parking this.

I'm looking to make 2 dough balls, so for the sake of ease I think I'll be using

3 cups flour (about 360 grams)
1 cup water (236 grams)
Salt: ?
IDY: .18 to .19%

I "think" that puts me between 61 to 65% hydration, and I think I'll be getting about 300 gram dough balls...maybe a little more so I might take off a little chunk of dough and then split the remainder in half.

1. First and foremost, impressions of this? Think it'll be okay?

2. Secondly, how should I measure out the proper amount of yeast, and can anyone give me an estimated yeast amount for that percentage (grams, ounces, teaspoons)? I imagine this will be the hardest part to get right. Also, a recommended amount of salt would be helpful.

3. Finally, how do you all store your yeast, especially after a package is open. I bought a thing of Redstar quick rise IDY and I'm pretty sure the pouches are about 7 grams. I had 2 unopen ones sitting on the counter for about a day, but then I put them in the fridge. Is this okay? Also, how should I store after I open a package?

  - Also, I should be bulk fermenting the dough, correct? How would you mix this if you're hand kneading/mixing? Should I do frequent autolyse and resting periods? Any pictures of what the dough should like around the 8 day mark would be great, too.

Any help would be appreciated...I'm looking to get those awesome blisters and flavor!

PS. What mozz did you use on those pies, gluten boy?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 07, 2010, 11:10:14 PM
Hotsawce -

3 cups of flour sounds a bit high for starters to me if you're at 1 cup water.  I'd start with 2.5 cups and add more if needed.  The dough shouldn't be too too manageable.  A bit sticky is good.  Second, with that much flour, if you're using IDY, I'd stay around 1/4 tsp.  ADY maybe 1/3 to half tsp.  The cheese is Belgioso cryopack fresh Mozz. log from Costco.  Also a bit of grated reggiano and pecorino romano.  Keep me posted, my friend.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 07, 2010, 11:28:38 PM
You sure about the 2.5 cups? I just did the math, and using AP flour at about 120 grams a cup puts the hydration at 79% to 1 cup of water (about 236 grams).

As for the IDY, that's about .5 to .6 grams, right?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 08, 2010, 01:25:58 AM
Just speaking from personal experience.  Volume measurements are iffy at best, and even with a scale you can't be a slave to the numbers if the dough doesn't feel right.  Experience tells me there's no way that 2.5 cups of flour to 1 cup water has given me a 79%-hydration dough, but it could be due to the way I measure flour in a cup.  You can always add more flour if what you get is too wet.  If you start off with more and it's too dry, you will then need to add more water which will simply mean more dough.  I don't know how much pizza you've made, but the first few are going to be a learning experience no matter how much study prep you do.  Percentages vary with ingredients (like type of flour etc.), and there's no substitute for knowing what you want when you see and feel it.  I have a scale as well as calibrated cups and spoons, and still I wind up tweaking the hydration most of the time to get what I want.  Don't get me wrong; accurate measurements are vital.  You just can't always trust the numbers to the point of ignoring what's going on in the mixing bowl.  The two greatest sources of knowledge for me have been 1) This forum, and 2) My mistakes.  Don't worry too much.  It's always edible.  As far as the yeast goes, there's a volume/weight conversion table here: http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm (http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm).  Flour's cheap.  If you have a particular doubt, resolve it with a side-by-side test.  Anyway, enough out of me.  You'll do great!   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 01:04:43 PM
hotsawce,

I don't want to rain on your parade but I don't think you should be using 65% hydration. If you want to make two roughly 300 gram dough balls, I would use Glutenboy's baker's percents in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The option you would use is the Dough Weight option. I would also buy or borrow a set of standard measuring spoons. Trying to guess at quantities of yeast and salt with ordinary teaspoons is problematic at best. If you guess wrong, your experiment can end up as a failure or your dough may not make it out to eight days. You want to avoid or minimize as much as possible the things that can go wrong.

Can you tell us what kind and brand of flour you are using? If it is in the pull-down menu at the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, you should be able to convert the weight quantity for the flour from the expanded dough calculating tool into a volume measurement based on how you measure out flour (e.g., "Textbook" method, "Medium", etc.). If you need help with either tool, let me know.

With respect to yeast storage, I store all of my yeasts in the freezer, whether the packet is opened or not. If you know that you are going to use the yeast in a short period of time, for example, within a few days, it can be stored in the refrigerator compartment of your refrigerator.

On the matter of hand kneading, you might want to follow Glutenboy's regimen. However, in your case, you should use whatever you have on hand as a substitute for a stand mixer, such as a bowl, a sturdy mixing spoon, a whisk, spatula, a bench knife, etc. Glutenboy describes his mixing regimen at Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 08, 2010, 08:18:02 PM
I am using King Aruthur AP Unbleached.

Using that calculator and Glutenboy's percents, this is what I came up with.

Flour (100%):    366.59 g  |  12.93 oz | 0.81 lbs
Water (61%):    223.62 g  |  7.89 oz | 0.49 lbs
IDY (.17%):    0.62 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
Salt (2.5%):    9.16 g | 0.32 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Total (163.67%):   600 g | 21.16 oz | 1.32 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   300 g | 10.58 oz | 0.66 lbs

For measurement, I used the "textbook method," where you stir the flour to loosen it and then lift it into the measuring cup by the spoonful and level it off.

According to the calculator, flour came out to 2 and 3/4 cups with 2 tbsp. and 3 tsp.
Water came out to 3/4 cups with 3 tbsp and .37 tsp.
Salt came out to 1.91 tsp

Is all good?

For the yeast, should I just dump it in a ziploc bag and keep it in the freezer like that? Also, does it need to come to room temperature before I use it?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 09:11:06 PM
hotsawce,

You did well :chef:. I am proud of you. The only thing I would change is to use a bowl residue compensation of 3% to compensate for the fact that you will be using hand kneading and tools to which some of the dough is bound to stick. Using 3% bowl residue compensation gives us the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (61%):
IDY (0.17%):
Salt (2.5%):
Total (163.67%):
Single Ball:
377.59 g  |  13.32 oz | 0.83 lbs
230.33 g  |  8.12 oz | 0.51 lbs
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
9.44 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
618 g | 21.8 oz | 1.36 lbs | TF = N/A
309 g | 10.9 oz | 0.68 lbs
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 3%

Using the Textbook method of flour measurement, the weight of flour in the above dough formulation, 377.59 grams, translates to 3 cups + a bit less than one teaspoon. The weight of water in the above formulation, 230.33 grams, translates to 3/4 cup + 3 T. + a bit less than 2 t. The flour and water volume measurement values may not be 100% accurate and a guarantee of success, because volume measurements are not precise even under the best of circumstances, but I think you will be closer than just guessing.

You will also get somewhat different results using the King Arthur all-purpose flour than using the high-gluten and bread flours that Glutenboy has used. That might require some adjustment in future iterations. For example, to track Glutenboy's dough formulation more closely, you might lower the hydration to about 59%. You might also switch to a bread flour in a future iteration, or to a high-gluten flour if you can find a source of that flour. The bread flour and high-gluten flour will have a longer fermentation tolerance. With the all-purpose flour, you may not make it out to eight days, even with the small amount of yeast. So you will want to monitor the development of your dough during its fermentation.

I forgot to mention before but I would do the division after the bulk fermentation of a few hours, just as Glutenboy describes in Reply 5 that I previously referenced. Of course, if he altered his methodology maybe he can update you on that.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 09:21:07 PM
For the yeast, should I just dump it in a ziploc bag and keep it in the freezer like that? Also, does it need to come to room temperature before I use it?

hotsawce,

When I use packets of unused yeast, I just freeze them unopened. If I open a packet and don't use all of the yeast, I just tightly fold the top of the packet over and hold the packet closed with a rubber band wrapped around the packet. Or I just tape the packets shut. I use packets of both IDY and ADY so keeping the yeast in their packets avoids confusion and possible mistakes. When I use a large one-pound bag of yeast, I fold the bag shut and keep it in a sealed plastic container in my freezer.

Opinions differ on whether one should let the yeast warm up before using. I don't think that it makes a difference from what I can tell. I usually just take the yeast out of the freezer as I am getting ready to make the dough and measure out the amount of yeast I am planning to use. It will warm up quickly and be ready when you are.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Puzzolento on February 09, 2010, 09:51:55 AM
When crust looks that good, you almost don't care how it tastes.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: NY pizzastriver on February 19, 2010, 11:16:58 AM
A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it. 


Right you are, I find your formula at about 5 mins total is best. I tried it at 10 recently, and like Paulie said to Jiimmy The Cheese of his Mozzarella in The Pope Of Greenwich Village "tough like shoe leather". Yeah, so it's not meant for a 10 minute mix.

I just wanted to take this time to thank you for this formula. As I just stated in another thread, but wanted to elaborate on here, it's hands down the winner for best taste/texture/ versatility in usage for a 550 home oven. What I mean by the last part is it's usable from 3-9 days, so a big batch means pizza basically whenever you want it. If you ever tried Lehmann, which I'm sure you have, yours is better after 3 days without fail.

As no one has come up with anything better in my months here for home oven use (for example a 12 day dough I attempted was just unusable) I proudly award you this fine trophy! Cherish it, display it proudly, and thanks again for your amazing work of art.

I may pop back from time to time to say hi, but 'til then peace to you all!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 19, 2010, 02:04:56 PM
Wow.  That's quite a compliment.  Having been a member here for quite a few years now, and having had the privilege to communicate with and learn from the talent that has come, gone, and stayed over those years, and having seen their work, it's hard to feel like I deserve it.  Having said that, I am not above accepting unwarranted accolades and so I have a speech prepared...  ;D  Seriously, NYPizzastriver, thanks.  It means a lot to me that I was able to give something here.  This forum is an amazing place.  I've been able to communicate directly with the likes of Pete Taylor, Scott R, Jeff Varasano (all of whom I think will become legendary alongside Bianco, DeMarco and Tony G.) and even Evelyn Slomon who belongs on the aforementioned list.  There are many others as well; those few just sprang to mind.  Everything I do when I make pizza has been informed by their guidance and wisdom.  Peter's tireless research and cataloguing of the information brought here by everyone has created what must be the greatest single body of pizzamaking history, science and knowledge in the world.  I don't think that's hyperbole, just a statement of fact.  I'm grateful and pround to be a member of this community.  And finally, NYPizzastriver, you make it sound as though you're signing off.  What's up with that?  The forum thrives on people with your skills, passion and love of pizza - so GET BACK HERE!

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 15, 2010, 12:27:44 AM
After reading this entire thread and drooling at the pics, I had to give this recipe a try.  I used the recipe posted by GB with a few changes.  I added 30gm of my own starter (poolish/preferment), and 1/2 tsp oil per 12" pie.   

The first pie was made Friday night and cold fermented for 2 days and cooked Sunday night.  I was shooting for 3days or more but couldn't wait.  Pie #1 was kneaded in my new cuisinart Food Processor with cold water no ice.

Pie #2-#4 was made today and proofed at room temps (72F) for 5 hours and then baked the same day.  Since I was using it today, I upped the ADY to 1/2 tsp per pie, added 30gm starter, and 1/2 tsp of oil.  Final dough weight was around 320gm per pie.   Pies where between 12-13" post bake.  Pies 2 & 3 were kneaded in the Cuisinart food processor with 1/2 ice water 1/2 crushed ice.  Dough was very cold  and had to be rested for about 20min after kneading (to allow small ice chunks to melt) before all of the flour could be kneaded back in.

Pie #4 was made with ice cold water, but no ice when into the dough.  Autolysed for 20 min, and then salt and oil was added and kneaded for about 80 revolutions.

All pies where finished with a little hand kneading, balled, and then went into a buttered round container.
I want to make a distincting here about using a food processor to knead dough and using ice cold water versus ice water with crush ice in it.   Both dough balls sat out on the counter for 5 hours before baking, but the one that didn't have the ice chips in it and not as cold rose about 50%  bigger prebake.  Felt a lot airier prebake and was more distensible when stretching.  I could not toss this dough ball and just hand stretched on the counter. 
  Doughballs with ice chips in it did not rise as much during the proof, did not feel as airy when handling, and had enough strength in it to allow for tossing.   Both baked very similarly and had the same oven spring and taste.   

Pies were baked in the home oven on  pizza stone about 3.5" below the top broiler.   Initial stone temp was 750, and oven temp was lowered to 450-475 once pies were loaded.  Pies were baked for about 6 mins and the broiled for 30 seconds or less to char the top crust and cheese. 

Results were excellent.  Guests like pie #1 (cold fermented for 2 days) best, but all were great!  I didn't get to tasted pie #1, but ate slices out of pies #2-#4.  Crust was crispy on outside and slightly chewy inside.  Airy but not too airy.  Bottom had a nice bend too it but not too floppy.  Pizza was foldable but I dont slice it big enough to require that.  Did not get the blisters, but got some micro blisters that you had to really look for to see.

Here are the pies.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 15, 2010, 12:29:40 AM
Pie #4



Kudos to you GB for an awesome recipe and for sharing it as well!  My guests and I thank you!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on March 15, 2010, 10:44:43 AM
Tran,

Nice job all around. It looks like you conducted about ten different experiments at the same time  :-D. If you were to settle on a single set of parameters for the next attempt, what do you think they would be?

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 15, 2010, 12:07:12 PM
Tran,

Nice job all around. It looks like you conducted about ten different experiments at the same time  :-D. If you were to settle on a single set of parameters for the next attempt, what do you think they would be?

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I have no patience but to conduct mutliple experiments at the same time.  It makes for a nerving wait for the results as I never know which experiment will be successfull or disasterous.  I guess all the stars were line up last night.  :D

So here are my new parameters.   First I just got a Cuisinart Food Processor that I used to knead the dough with.  I have been doing it by hand and it does a much better job than I can by hand.  But I will continue to use both methods and test them against one another as my hand kneading techniques are improving.

I will do a write up on using the (cuisinart Food processor) to make pizza later once I get that dialed in. 

#2) first time adding about 1/2 tsp of oil per pie for me and I like the results.  If it makes the crust a bit more tender and easier to work with I think it's a good idea.  JV's and other recipes that call for no sugar and oil are really meant to be cooked at HIGH temps.  At those temps, the dough remains moist and not dry due to the short cooking times.  For the home cook with a 550 degree oven at best,  we have to cook pies at 6mins + compared to a 2 min bake.  That's a lot of time for the crust to dry out, so oil is good for the home baker IMO.

#3)  I got great results with GB's recipe so I'll have to go back and compare it with JV's recipe that I have been using to see if it they are that different from one another.   In the end it's just all flour, water, yeast, salt, (and oil) right?  I'm keeping in mind that I've read a number of posts stating that the italian masters really only measure water and not the other ingredients and that if the technique used is correct, you can get a great pie without measuring. Keeping this in mind, I'm think my results were due more to better kneading (with the cuisinart) than a better recipe.
I'll have to do a side by side test with a GB pie vs a JV pie with the cuisinart to really know.

#4) 2 T starter per pie was not too much for a same day pie as I just have to make the changes to the percentages accordingly.  A pinch of ADY yeast for a 3-9 day ferment and a 1/3 tsp of ADY for same day pies works well along with my starter.

#5) I will substitute reballing for stretching and folding 3 hours prior to baking if the dough seems too soft or pliable.  In a side  by side comparison, doughballs made with ice chips in the the dough turned out a much colder product than simply using ice water.  Sorry Peter, I forgot to measure the dough temp after kneading.  The 2 doughs were rested for 5 hours prior to baking and both had different amounts of rise, aeration of the dough, pliability, workability when it came to stretching and skinning.   They were so different in that the one that originally had ice chips in it, I was able to toss in the air and the other I wasn't able to, eventhough both had come to room temperature.  After baking though, both were indistiguisable in oven spring.  The dough that was colder initially was just easier to work with b/c it wasn't so slack.

so what I plan on using as a standard for now is this..
-Mix all cold ice water (no ice chips), 90-100% flour, yeast.  Allow to autolyse for 20mins in the fridge to keep the dough cold. 
-Then add oil and salt and knead for about 75 revolutions in the food processor with the dough blade.
-Turn out on counter to finish hand kneading.  Very little bench flour will be used here.
-Will place into an oiled container and either rest for 20min on the counter or go into cold ferment.
  I will test at a later date if the riposo is necessary or even makes a difference.
-cold rest for 3-6 days? in a ventilated container.  I'll poke small holes in the top of my glad containers.
-Allow to proof to room temps for 3-6 hours. 
-Will reball if necessary.   
-Bake, take pics, eat, post pics, and get ready for more experiments. 

 Thanks for all your feedback Peter.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on March 19, 2010, 05:00:54 PM
MWTC -

I have not forsaken you.  The fact is that except for that impromptu dough I made at my friends house, I have not cooked a pizza since the last pics I posted.  I will do it.  I swear by Grepthar's Hammer.  ???

- GB

GB,
Looking thru this thread I don't see where you've tried out MWTC's recipe yet. Been looking forward to your results?? Grepther and his hammer would be frowning :-D Anyway I put one of yours in the fridge last nite for use on Sunday nite (3.5-4 days in fridge) Won't be as nice as an 8-9 dayer but didn't know enough ahead of time to start it earlier. Try to post some pics.
Jon
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 19, 2010, 05:30:35 PM
Hey are you guys getting blisters with cold ferment of 3-5 days?  or only if they've been sleeping 8-9 days?  Just curious as I have only made a few of these myself.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on March 19, 2010, 05:41:04 PM
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8232.msg70969.html#msg70969

This one was after 5 days give or take so I'll see come Sunday on this latest one which will be about 3 1/2. It'll still be better than take out!!
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: MikeH on April 03, 2010, 03:24:12 PM
I'm giving this recipe a shot at the moment.. start of 2nd day in fridge I see that 4/6 dough balls have almost doubled in size but 2 of them have hardly risen at all.. those 2 are the same in every way except I only oiled the containers and didn't rub any on the balls.   Seems kinda odd, I guess we'll see how they turn out.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 07, 2010, 08:36:04 PM
Hey, Jackitup!  Yeah, Grepthar's gonna be p**sed at me!  >:D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: edgeco1 on May 04, 2010, 06:03:48 PM
Glutenboy or Peter,
From your recipe above:

3 cups + 1 tsp flour
3/4 cup + 3T + 2 tsp H20

Is this per pie?

I make a Lehman with:
2 3/8 flour;
3/4 H20

for a 15 inch pie!

Sorry for the newbie question.

edge.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 04, 2010, 06:21:41 PM
Edge -

Volume measurements will get you iffy results at best, and your water/flour (hydration) ratio is going to vary a bit depending on what kind of flour you're using.  I know that's a half a*sed answer, but in my experience it's the honest truth.  When I don't have my scale handy or I'm using a new flour, I wind up tweaking my measurements by feel.  If I didn't, I'd never get what I want.  I hope (and have a good, strong feeling) that Peter will provide you with more useful information than I just did.   ;D

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2010, 06:46:10 PM
From your recipe above:

3 cups + 1 tsp flour
3/4 cup + 3T + 2 tsp H20

Is this per pie?

edge,

I believe you are referring to the dough recipe I posted at Reply 172 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg89797.html#msg89797. If so, that recipe is for two dough balls, each weighing about 309 grams, possibly a bit less.

Since I have a digital scale, I use that over using volume measurements. No matter how carefully one uses volume measurements, even those for flour from the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, and assuming that one uses the proper flour Measurement Method, results can vary and require you to make adjustments. You will have to give the recipe a try to see if you can come close to the desired results using the volume measurements.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: edgeco1 on May 04, 2010, 07:00:25 PM
Thanks :)

What size pie would that make ?

edge.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2010, 07:09:41 PM
edge,

According to Glutenboy's post at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66680.html#msg66680, about 14".

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: edgeco1 on May 04, 2010, 07:18:29 PM
A fountain of knowledge :)

Thanks!!!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: edgeco1 on May 04, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
One more question  ;D

I made the batch and it made more than I planned on.
I made two balls and oiled them and put them in the fridge.

Now I have second thoughts and would like to make it into three pies!

1) Should I re-knead it and divide into 3;

2) should I break off 1/3 from each ball to make 3;

3) just go with it and make a larger, not round pie?

thanks.  edge.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2010, 10:24:16 PM
One more question  ;D

I made the batch and it made more than I planned on.
I made two balls and oiled them and put them in the fridge.

Now I have second thoughts and would like to make it into three pies!

1) Should I re-knead it and divide into 3;

2) should I break off 1/3 from each ball to make 3;

3) just go with it and make a larger, not round pie?

thanks.  edge.


edge,

Once you have formed the dough balls and placed them in the refrigerator, it can be difficult to recombine them into a single dough ball and redivide into three balls, especially if you brushed or coated the original dough balls with oil.

Of the options you presented, I think I would go with option 2) and hope that the third dough ball comes out OK.

You should keep in mind that you will have to make smaller pizzas (diameter) if you go to three dough balls if you want to retain the same crust thickness characteristics of the Glutenboy crusts. If you try to make 14" pizzas with the three dough balls, the crusts may turn out too thin. By my calculation, you should end up with three dough balls weighing 201.33 grams each (7.10 ounces). Based on the thickness factor used by Glutenboy's dough formulation, you will not want to make your pizzas any larger than 11.43194" if you want to retain the same crust characteristics of his dough formulation.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: edgeco1 on May 05, 2010, 06:43:06 AM
Thanks, because I measured and did not weigh the balls are certainly heavier! Judging by feel from previous pies I would guess that they are at least enough for 18 inch pies.

Thanks again.
edge.

PS I did have to add 1/2 cup of H20 to make the dough workable!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: WestCountry on July 03, 2010, 01:38:52 PM
Lately I have been running into too many overblown doughs doing my long room temperature fermentations, so I tried this recipe out since it was fridge based. I have been getting great results with it, and its turning into my new regular pizza recipe. So thanks to all the contributors here. Also getting great blistering which is a nice side-effect I always wanted to obtain.

The below photos are based on glutenboy's recipe with KASL and SAF red yeast (at 5 days in the fridge).

Chris      :pizza:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 03, 2010, 02:02:31 PM
Nice work.  Beautiful looking rim.  lovely looking blisters as well.  How was the crust/crumb texture? 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: WestCountry on July 03, 2010, 02:15:04 PM
Thanks Jackie Tran!
The crust/crumb was awesome. Cooked in my kitchen oven 550 degrees F. Good browning and crispy on the outside and tender and slightly chewy inside... Not dry, unless I overcook it - which I did once by mistake. Good hole structure too, I should have shown that.

For the past month been doing this recipe and its my now become my favorite. I like the fact too that I can just grab one or two dough balls out of the fridge before I need them, then leave it on the counter for 2-hours  - then they are ready to stretch.

I have to try one of these sometime in my 2Stone oven to see what it looks like at 725 degrees.

Chris
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 03, 2010, 02:19:01 PM
Chris, you'll get a puffier and more aerated rim and some different type patterns on the rim.  More and darker spots.

I also forgot to ask you what you meant by an "overblown" dough.   

JT
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: WestCountry on July 03, 2010, 02:37:41 PM
Thanks Jackie Tran for the feedback,

When I say "overblown", I use it to describe this situation I have run into:
For past year I have been doing really well with long room-temp fermentations (like 12-24 hours) with a really small amount of Rapid Rise yeast. But starting this Spring, I started getting into trouble. Dough was too elastic and rising too much, and when I go to stretch it I basically would not even need to...because it was so loose (resulting in spots too thin and tearing). I think it was a factor of the higher and changing temps here in Colorado (like in the 80 degree F range) and me not appropriately controlling the temp/yeast combination. So I guess when I say "overblown"...I mean that as over-fermented.

Its funny how things change, cause I was never a big fan of using the fridge and now I am.

btw, all your pies and experiments looking awesome in all the threads...keep it up!
Chris
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 03, 2010, 04:03:30 PM
Thx for the nice words Chris.  Overfermentation and I are practically best buds these days.  I'm trying to give him the cold shoulder but he won't leave me alone.

Overfermentation:  JT,  dude what are you doing tonight?  Wanna hang out ?
Me: uh...I'm busy...I'm doing some experiments later.
Overfermentation:  Really?  Is it with pizza dough.  I'm an expert, I'll come over.
Me: ugh!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2010, 04:04:30 PM
Chris,

Your pizza looks delicious!  I can see how the 5 day fermented dough gave the crust a great flavor.  

Norma
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jonesyb on April 28, 2011, 05:35:59 AM
I used a few 7 day balls of this dough last night and wow... it was hands down the best pizza I've ever made. Even in my oven which only goes up to 500 degrees it was full of random bubbles and the taste was just ridiculous. Going to make some more tomorrow lunchtime (9 days) so will hopefully post my results.

Been using this dough for a good while now with amazing success. Not been posting as have been making pizzas with lots of people round so it's not been convenient to take photos but I will do soon. Comments from friends about pizzas using this dough are also very positive.

THIS DOUGH IS THE BEST THING EVER.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jonesyb on May 14, 2011, 08:55:57 AM
I have just made a batch of this dough with Marriage's Very Strong Canadian White Flour:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marriages-Strong-Canadian-White-Flour/dp/B0043RQ01O

Has anyone had any experiences with this product?

I found it in a new speciality bakers that's opened where I live.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: scott123 on May 14, 2011, 01:42:31 PM
Member Paulspizza has worked with Marriage's flour extensively in preparation for opening his pizzeria. Hopefully he'll chime in.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SinoChef on March 22, 2012, 07:37:11 AM


Hey GB,

Here is a photo of your original recipe post from 09, attached to the back of the door to my prep kitchen, in China.

Figured you would get a kick out of this.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SinoChef on March 22, 2012, 07:48:57 AM

Followed the recipe exactly. Just had to change flours 3 different times.

Absolutely perfect.

(I got 16 days in the cooler out of one batch before it finally gave up the ghost)

And thanks, as always to Pete-zaa for making this such an easy site to navigate through! ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2012, 08:13:58 AM
And thanks, as always to Pete-zaa for making this such an easy site to navigate through! ;)

SinoChef,

Thank you very much, but the credit really goes to Steve, the owner and Administrator of the forum who chose the indexing format for the forum over a chronological one, and also to the other Moderators, and particularly Bill/SFNM, who spend a lot of time trying to keep things in the right place, especially with the phenomenal growth of the forum over the last few years. We have been averaging about 125 new posts a day (and over 45,000 new posts over the last year). It also helps that the forum is clean and uncluttered, without ads all over the place jumping up and down and mixed in with the forum content so that you almost can't tell which is which. That alone makes navigation much better and easier.

I'm sure that Glutenboy will be pleased to see that his recipe is being used in China.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 22, 2012, 06:02:55 PM
China!!! Pleased is an understatement!  ;D  I'm really glad you guys are enjoying the formula.  I wish I could take credit for calculating the science behind it, but it really is just a synthesis of the wisdom I picked up from others here.  Varasano, Pete Taylor, Scott R, Pete-zza, and many others did my heavy lifting.  I'm a pizza plagarist!  But I am glad that you like it and are having success with it.  I've never come close to sixteen days.  I'm imagining colder refrigeration could extend the process...?  A buddy of mine made it to day 11 before the dough died.  He didn't have the heart to throw it out til day 13.  Kind of like a mama chimp.  :-\
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SinoChef on March 23, 2012, 04:21:00 AM


Well yes Pete, thanks to all the members here for the nice forum. I guess what I meant was, it was nice to sit down and find the needle I wanted quickly in this gigantic stack of needles here. You took the time to list all the most popular NY styles on the start of this board. GB's stood out right away, because of the long shelf life.

The 16 day pizza turned out like Indian Naan bread. The flavor was delicious, the texture how ever was not something I could serve. 300 g dough ball, and I could still stretch it as aggressively as I wanted

The flour here is really garbage. But the one thing I have learned the last couple of weeks. I will never make any kind of bread product, with out using the autolyse process. 

This crust is like the best baguette you have ever had.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bfguilford on June 30, 2012, 08:16:28 PM
I just tried my first Glutenboy dough bake, and I think I'm in love!

50% Central Milling Organic Artisan Baker Craft; 50% Central Milling Organic Type 85 Malted, which made for a slightly strange looking dough after a 6 day ferment (the Type 85 caused it to go a little grey-ish on the outside... I got over that in a hurry when I tasted it). This was the best tasting dough I have ever had. In fact, it was so flavorful, I may actually cut back a bit on the Type 85 next time.

White pie topped with garlic, basil, kale, tomato and EVOO. Sapputo part-skim mozzarella and a little pecorino. 5 minute bake (3 minutes plus 2 minutes on convection) at 545 degrees.

The dough handled like a dream. I don't know if you can see in the photo of the bottom, but I could actually see the tomato and either basil or kale right through the pie (maybe next time I'll go a little thicker :-D). Nice crumb, nice crunch and chew.

I have one more dough ball left from this batch, which I will use tomorrow. Thank you Glutenboy... you are a credit to pizza making!

Barry

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on July 01, 2012, 12:22:57 AM
Looks awesome. I can almost feel the crunch in my mouth with that bottom shot. Very nice!
Jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 01, 2012, 08:56:33 PM
Thanks, Barry.  You are a credit to the recognition of greatness... Kidding.  Your pizzas look great.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bfguilford on July 02, 2012, 04:18:53 PM
Thanks, Jackitup and Glutenboy.

Hey GB, do you know the words to that old Mac Davis song...

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
when you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait to look in the mirror
cause I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
but I'm doing the best that I can.  ;D

Barry
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 02, 2012, 04:26:03 PM
That's awesome.  My best friend in high school used to walk around singing that all the time.   :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Steve E on July 04, 2012, 11:47:10 PM
Hi All,

I tried GB's recipe tonight and loved the flavor of the dough. The crust had a nice crisp to it and the rim was nice and airy. I have to say it was my best pizza to date. I had trouble stretching the skin. It just did not seem to relax. I had in the fridge for 8 days and took it out and rested it at room temp for about an hour and a half prior to forming the skin. What would cause it to do that? It also wanted to tear more that the other doughs I have tried. I used bread flour from Costco. I think it's harvest king bread flour. The recipe was:

Flour 100%
Water 61%
IDY .19%
Salt: 2.5%
16oz dough ball
Mixed and fermented just like the recipe on page 1.

Steve


Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 05, 2012, 04:29:35 AM
Your hydration (61 percent) sounds low to me.  When I use Harvest King, I'm up around at least 65 percent.  That could definitely affect extensibility.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Steve E on July 05, 2012, 08:18:33 AM
Your hydration (61 percent) sounds low to me.  When I use Harvest King, I'm up around at least 65 percent.  That could definitely affect extensibility.

Thanks GB, I will up the hydration and give it another try.

Steve
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SnuffGear on July 05, 2012, 11:03:30 AM
GB, what hydration would you suggest if I'm using KA High Gluten flour? Recipe I tried was the same as Steve E's above. (except the flour type) Had a hard time stretching. Have to say though, the dough tasted great!

Thanks
Tom
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 05, 2012, 11:26:07 AM
Tom - If you mean KA Sir Lancelot, I've never used it so I'm not sure.

Steve and Tom - I haven't seen a lot of posts from either of you so I don't know how many pizzas you've made prior to now.  Hydration is important, but handling can also have a big effect on extensibility.  Are you careful not to manhandle or reknead the dough right before you stretch the skin?  That'll cause the gluten to tighten up, and it'll be more than a little while before you can try again.  Sometimes it'll ruin it.

Steve - When you did your 1.5-hour counter rise, did the dough relax and rise a bit?  Was it covered to avoid any drying?

I just ask to eliminate possible causes that can be easily fixed.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SnuffGear on July 07, 2012, 06:42:07 PM
Thanks GB. I'm a rookie. Just made my 5th pie, this my first with your recipe. The KA bag doesn't say anything other than 'High Gluten'. 14.+% protein.

I'm still learning how to form the dough so my pies are not very round!  ;D

Tonights dough was 6.5 days in the fridge and it seemed to work better than any of my previous tries.  The taste is excellent, but the crust seems to be a little too, for lack of a better description, 'stiff'. Actually, I think the cornicione was about perfect. From there inward was the stiff part. I'm trying not to overwork it when making the pie.

Thanks for what appears to be an excellent dough recipe.

Tom
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SinoChef on July 08, 2012, 02:59:27 AM
Quote
I'm still learning how to form the dough so my pies are not very round!

Just call them "artisan" and you can charge a couple bucks more for em... :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Steve E on July 08, 2012, 08:57:53 AM
Quote
Steve - When you did your 1.5-hour counter rise, did the dough relax and rise a bit?  Was it covered to avoid any drying?

I just ask to eliminate possible causes that can be easily fixed.

- GB

It did rise just a little bit, not much. I had it covered the entire time while on the bench. When it came out of the fridge I dusted the bench with flour dumped the dough on the bench and covered it. I have not been on the pizza forum for long but have been baking for quite a few years, mostly breads though. I have a batch in the fridge now with a 65% hydration and will give it a try later this week. It was much wetter coming out of the mixer that the 61% I tried earlier. My previous doughs have been Lehmann's, I have tried various hydrations from 60% up to 65% and settled on 61% which most of us who ate it felt that was the best one. When I saw the GB's formula I started at 61% because that's all I knew. I will keep trying. I seem to learn something from every batch and even the failures taste great so nothing lost.

Steve
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bfguilford on July 08, 2012, 01:56:31 PM
Just call them "artisan" and you can charge a couple bucks more for em... :-D

Amen to that! Everything's "artisan" these days... even Dunkin Donuts bagels and Subway sandwiches (to say nothing of Dominos pseudo-pizza). Blah!

SnuffGear: I know how you feel. Right now, because I'm working with a 12x20 pice of kiln shelf, I'm doing oval pies... on purpose (that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;D), but those pies are getting much more consistent in shape. When I finally get a 16x16 steel plate (thanks to Scott123's work), I'll lose that excuse. Practice, practice, practice!

Barry
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: SnuffGear on July 09, 2012, 01:24:16 PM
I'd settle for oval!  ;D

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bfguilford on July 09, 2012, 01:51:34 PM
I'd settle for oval!  ;D


What... and give up heart-shaped?!? Do you know how long it would take for me to learn how to do that?!?  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: wirebender on January 31, 2013, 01:38:09 PM
OK, Time to resurrect this thread--  :)

I'm going to mix up a batch of this this weekend using IDY, will cold ferment until the following weekend (seven days). I'd like to make a second batch using my Tartine starter, which is fed twice a day, so very active. Any thoughts on how much starter to use for a seven day cold ferment? Also will be using Wheat Montana AP flour from WalMart, works very well in the Tartine bread.

Actually, the above question is a bit vague, I realize...I guess I'm asking for a ratio of IDY to starter in general, as I haven't given, or decided on, the number/size of pizzas to make.

Thanks, Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: deb415611 on May 31, 2013, 08:27:01 PM
I used the formula in reply 5 of this thread tonight.  Baked on my baking steel  - pics can be found here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg66669.html#msg66669)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: brandonb on July 09, 2013, 10:04:52 PM
Following this thread and am planning to move on from Neapolitan pizza to NY pizza. I have some All Trumps flour coming in this week. I'd love to do the GB recipe this weekend, but will only have a couple days for a cold rise in the fridge. Has anyone adjusted the recipe by adding a bit more yeast for a shorter fermentation time? I read around and really only found 5 days was the shortest.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jeffereynelson on July 10, 2013, 12:13:24 AM
Following this thread and am planning to move on from Neapolitan pizza to NY pizza. I have some All Trumps flour coming in this week. I'd love to do the GB recipe this weekend, but will only have a couple days for a cold rise in the fridge. Has anyone adjusted the recipe by adding a bit more yeast for a shorter fermentation time? I read around and really only found 5 days was the shortest.

Thanks!

You know he is already using quite a bit of yeast in the recipe. I don't think you need to change amount. I would just let it bulk on the counter for a couple hours before balling and going to the fridge. Then pull it out of the fridge around 3 hours before ready to use.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: deb415611 on July 10, 2013, 07:28:57 AM
Following this thread and am planning to move on from Neapolitan pizza to NY pizza. I have some All Trumps flour coming in this week. I'd love to do the GB recipe this weekend, but will only have a couple days for a cold rise in the fridge. Has anyone adjusted the recipe by adding a bit more yeast for a shorter fermentation time? I read around and really only found 5 days was the shortest.

Thanks!

I have used the recipe at reply 5 of this thread at 2 and 3 days,  3 was better but 2 was good.  I did not add any extra yeast.   

here are the 3 day  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22826.msg257097.html#msg257097 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22826.msg257097.html#msg257097)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 10, 2013, 02:33:13 PM
As long as you allow a long bulk counter rise (a couple of hours or so) before balling and refrigerating, you should be fine with 2 days.  The flavor won't be as good as a longer refrigeration would allow, but you shouldn't have a problem with stretching or oven spring.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: brandonb on July 10, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
I have used the recipe at reply 5 of this thread at 2 and 3 days,  3 was better but 2 was good.  I did not add any extra yeast.   

here are the 3 day  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22826.msg257097.html#msg257097 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22826.msg257097.html#msg257097)

Thanks, Deb! Did you use this IDY amount ( .282895%) from reply #5 or the lower one that was adjusted later in the thread? (0.19% I believe)

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: dmcavanagh on July 10, 2013, 07:15:53 PM
You know he is already using quite a bit of yeast in the recipe. I don't think you need to change amount. I would just let it bulk on the counter for a couple hours before balling and going to the fridge. Then pull it out of the fridge around 3 hours before ready to use.
Jeff, I'm curious, what does the bulk for a couple of hours do for your dough. I just make my dough, perhaps let it sit at room temp for a half hour, and then it goes right in the fridge. That always works for me, I don't want my dough to start fermenting, and a couple of hours at room temp would most assuredly do that?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jeffereynelson on July 10, 2013, 07:20:31 PM
Jeff, I'm curious, what does the bulk for a couple of hours do for your dough. I just make my dough, perhaps let it sit at room temp for a half hour, and then it goes right in the fridge. That always works for me, I don't want my dough to start fermenting, and a couple of hours at room temp would most assuredly do that?

I leave it out for the exact reason you say you don't. I let the fermentation start. If i was going to leave it in the fridge for 5 days I probably wouldn't. My reply was saying the same thing as GB's reply. It just helps with the timing is all. Because if you go straight to the fridge for a day or two and then pull it out 2 hours before it's time to use it, it might not be proofed enough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: dmcavanagh on July 11, 2013, 06:18:31 AM
Two different paths to the same destination I guess, I usually like to let my dough ferment for 3-5 days, therefore there is no need for a bulk. For a day or two I guess I could see it, but I really don't think you get much out of a one or two day cold ferment.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: deb415611 on July 11, 2013, 06:32:00 AM
Thanks, Deb! Did you use this IDY amount ( .282895%) from reply #5 or the lower one that was adjusted later in the thread? (0.19% I believe)

I used the amount from reply 5
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: gotdough on November 04, 2013, 08:18:17 PM
Making a batch for the first time…looking forward to having some great pizza in a few days. #rookiepizzamaker
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DustinA on December 04, 2013, 03:23:36 PM
These look absolutely incredible.  I'm trying my hand at it tonight.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DustinA on December 05, 2013, 04:56:57 PM
Man, you guys weren't kidding.  This is some of the easiest handling dough I've ever used. 

Bye, bye little dough balls.  See you in a week.   ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: runeli on December 05, 2013, 09:20:06 PM
it looks great. Why do you use IDY in stead of ADY for long fermentation ?

Are there any benefit using IDY?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: dwighttsharpe on December 06, 2013, 08:09:31 AM
it looks great. Why do you use IDY in stead of ADY for long fermentation ?

Are there any benefit using IDY?

Once you make the adjustment in quantity(and maybe for the activation of the ADY), there is really no difference worth worrying over.

People tend to use what they have, or are used to working with. Most bread and pizza dough recipes here are starting to call for IDY, so that is what many here will start using when they start out, and continue doing so.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on December 06, 2013, 10:11:13 AM
it looks great. Why do you use IDY in stead of ADY for long fermentation ?

Are there any benefit using IDY?
runeli,

To add to what Dwight said, one of the principal advantages of using IDY is that it can be mixed in with the flour (that is, it does not need prehydration). However, in your case, where you previously indicated that you are kneading the dough by hand (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28925.msg290918.html#msg290918 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28925.msg290918.html#msg290918)), Tom Lehmann recommends that IDY be prehydrated in water at a temperature of around 95 degrees F for about 10 minutes. See, for example, Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597).

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DustinA on December 11, 2013, 06:20:12 PM
This 8 day rise is killing me. It's taunting me every time I open up the fridge.

It's right up there with Chinese water torture I tell you.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 14, 2013, 01:22:34 AM
8 days isn't a commandment, you know.  It's pretty great anytime after about 4.  If you made a few doughs, stop the madness and tide yourself over!!!   :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DustinA on December 16, 2013, 09:10:11 AM
I'm actually glad I waited.  I ended up giving it a 9th day for complaining about 8.  :)

This was some incredible dough to work with.  It stretched out nice and easily, with some nice little air pockets forming before it even hit the oven.  Sauced with my favorite November sauce, topped whole milk Mozzarella cheese, pepperoni and a bit of parmesan. 

This is where I screwed up.  I decided to try a new baking trick I saw on here where you put the pizza stone on the top most position in your oven and then turn on the broiler when you put the pizza in.  I didn't let the stone heat up long enough and the top of the pie baked faster than the bottom and I got a really nasty gum line.  :(  This is completely user error and doesn't reflect on the recipe at all.    The outer crust was incredible and had a wonderful eggshell texture on the outside while remaining tender on the inside.  One my new favorites.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DustinA on December 16, 2013, 09:11:21 AM
I got the nice blistering that the others were noting as well.  Yum!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Mullered on December 30, 2013, 08:16:07 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook has a chance to really develop the gluten.  A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it.  The dough was smooth and extensible.  A bulk room-temperature rise for a couple of hours.  The rise was good but not out of control.  Then I scaled and pulled the dough balls tight, oiled the containers and the doughs (I use the Gladware round containers) and put them in the fridge for a nice long nap.  No degassing like I used to with the Harvest King.  All trumps doesn't seem to forgive and recover from re-balling.  I was more generous with the olive oil (evoo) than usual because the All-Trumps dough has given me sticking issues.  This time, that was resolved.  I made the first batch of pizzas after a 4-and-a-half day rest and used up the last dough on day 8. (I made twelve doughs in all.)

Observations:  The dough handled beautifully.  Twelve hand-stretched pies and not one tear.  I even accidentally caught a stretched skin on the handle of the peel.  It just dimpled and rebounded.  I noticed that after day 6 I had to be more careful as the dough was getting a bit more delicate, but never did I hit the breaking point.  The trade off was worth it.  The older it got, the better the flavor, crumb and texture.  Best dough I've ever made.

The cheese was a mix of Belgioso fresh mozzarella (cryo log) and just a bit of Boar's head whole milk (just for kicks).  I also used some grated grana padano and pecorino romano before the Mozz went on.  The tomatoes were (I'm ashamed to admit the brand, but they were absolutely delicious) S&W crushed tomatoes in the giant can from Costco.  I strained them a bit to thicken them up, added some salt, fresh garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper, used an immersion blender to smooth the texture (just a bit) and they went on the pie like that.  Topped it all off with a pre-bake drizzle of Santini EVOO.  Fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

Don't scoff at the S&W's (I would have) till you've tried them.  They were sweet and mild.  Okay, I'm spent...  :P

-- GB

Just knocked up 4 dough balls for Friday.  The main difference in my formulation is that I used Alinson Very Strong Bread Flour (14%) and scaled the balls down to 10.5" using the Lehmann cough calculator as they need to fit in a Ferrari G3

Looking forward to seeing how they turn out!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 30, 2013, 05:42:16 PM
Just tried something new with the GB.  I used Harvest King (B for B) with 1.5% EVOO at a whopping (for me) 69.2% hydration.  I started at 67%, and the dough was handling so well that I decided to bump the H2O.  I did it twice, 1 percent (approximately) at a time.  It still handled almost too easily.  I did a hand stretch and fold, and it was very extensible.  I'll include a screen grab of the formula.  Anxious to see how this one comes out.  I think I'm soon headed for the 70% plateau.  I have to attribute the easily handling (my hands were almost clean)  to the bit of oil in the dough.  By the way, I don't promise 315-g dough balls.  I weigh the dough after the counter rise, divide by 4, scale, ball, and put in fridge.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 31, 2013, 06:37:47 PM
Just updating.  Made another batch and raised water to 532g to make it an even 70 percent hydration.  Looking good so far...

Edit:  Just did the counter rise, scaled, balled, and fridged.  I can't believe Harvest King took 70 percent so well.  I started with about 2/3 to 3/4 of the flour and all the water.  I mixed until I had a thick batter with lots of gluten development.  I added the IDY.  I mixed more.  I added the salt.  Mixed more.  Added the remaining flour.  Mixed until dough was fully incorporated.  Then added oil.  Mixed on speeds 2-3 until it was smooth and the bowl was cleaned.  Did a hand stretch and fold.  Very extensible.  Counter rise covered in mixing bowl.  Then balled, oiled, and in the cooler for a few days.  I have a feeling this will be very good.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 03, 2014, 06:56:37 PM
First pie with 3-day old dough from 69 percent hydration batch.  Sausage and mushroom pie with uncooked Great Value concentrated crushed tomatoes, a combo of Galbani, cryopack fresh mozz and Boar's Head LM whole-milk mozz, freshly grated Pecorino and Grana Padano, and a drizzle (big drizzle) of evoo.  It was tasty.  The crust was thin, and supported the toppings nicely.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 04, 2014, 04:28:40 PM
This is what 70 percent looks like at 4 days old.  Same ingredients minus the Boar's Head mozzarella.  Delicious.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Coon88 on January 04, 2014, 09:54:03 PM
Looks great...good job
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2014, 08:10:13 AM
Looks great...good job

 ^^^  Great looking crumb Glutenboy!

Norma
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Daft Pizza on April 06, 2014, 12:13:33 AM
I would like to try this recipe.

What would the recipe be for 4 12" dough balls?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on November 05, 2014, 12:37:22 AM
runeli,

To add to what Dwight said, one of the principal advantages of using IDY is that it can be mixed in with the flour (that is, it does not need prehydration). However, in your case, where you previously indicated that you are kneading the dough by hand (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28925.msg290918.html#msg290918 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,28925.msg290918.html#msg290918)), Tom Lehmann recommends that IDY be prehydrated in water at a temperature of around 95 degrees F for about 10 minutes. See, for example, Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21449.msg216597/topicseen.html#msg216597).

Peter
I'm getting ready to try this tomorrow. Can you or someone verify that pre-hydrating or proofing in a small amount of the water per TL's dough formula is the standard procedure needed for the GB formula as well? At one point In this thread I probably read something out of context and had been planning to just ad the ADY dry to the flour.

Thanks in advance.
R~

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on November 05, 2014, 09:21:55 AM
R,

The recommendation that Tom Lehmann dispenses for the prehydration of IDY for hand kneaded doughs is general in nature. I had mentioned the prehydration of the IDY to member runeli because he was planning on hand kneading the dough, whereas Glutenboy uses a stand mixer.

As for the use of ADY in dry form in the dough, I would not recommend doing that. Assuming that the amount of ADY would be equivalent to the amount of IDY that Glutenboy used, I think you would find that the dough would be likely to underferment and may result in poor overall performance. The classic way of preparing ADY for use is to prehydrate it in a small amount of warm water (about five times the weight of the ADY), at around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. Theoretically, you could jettison that advice and use ADY dry but you would have to increase the amount of ADY--perhaps dramatically--so that it ferments properly and is ready to use when you want to use it. You can see some of the challenges using dry ADY in a pizza dough and managing that dough at Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg64308.html#msg64308).

Glutenboy may have his own response to your post given that he is the master of his own dough and perhaps knows it better than anyone else. So, I would be guided by whatever advice he gives you.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on November 05, 2014, 03:17:27 PM
Thanks, Peter!

Gotchya. all makes sense. I did not know until I read this thread that this was a functional difference between IDY and ADY. We'll call it a very bad Youtube video I found a month or two ago on proofing. Recalling just why I even looked at that video to begin with reminded me of something I did. Very long story short, I discovered that I have some good IDY in the freezer that I thought it was ADY. Soooo, the batch of glutenboy sitting on my counter under wrap for 102 more minutes is .35% IDY. :) 

I'll still use up my ADY for some emergency dough experiments I plan on doing. Nice to know the difference now, so thank you (and Glutenboy) very much on at least a dozen counts for all of this.

:)

EDIT: Increased yeast percentage due to needing the dough in 3 days and not being fully confident in it's "freshness", as I'm pretty sure it's been opened from vacuum pack original state for at least 6 months. Still not officially expired from the date on the back. It did ave some activity when testing it per that aforementioned video, but nothing like the new jar of ADY I tried at the same time.

I also did a 20 autolyze as another member mentioned in this thread. I did smell the yeast working, btw.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: tepachica on December 28, 2014, 05:37:00 PM
Looks super yummy!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on January 11, 2015, 04:37:45 PM
Looks super yummy!  :chef:

 ^^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 01, 2015, 05:52:26 PM
Made some pizza for a visiting friend. New oven; so I was worried about reaching the temperature that my old reliable used to hit. I came up with the easiest temperature hack ever. I found the heat sensor clipped to the oven wall. I unclipped it and slid it out through the stovetop. With the sensor now on the outside, the oven (still a bottom gas broiler) never shuts off. The heat was as good as, if not better than, the old oven. Here's a pic.

Edit: Just for the record, this is GM Better for Bread flour, 68% hydration, and a 5-day rest in the cooler.  Found some great tomatoes by chance.  I was at Super WalMart, and they had Wild Oats organic crushed tomatoes for $1.49 a can.  I figured nothing to lose and grabbed two.  Opened one can to taste it and see if it was worth using on my pizza.  Sweet and mild.  Really delicious.  Made one of my best sauces ever.  Also, after going all the way over 70 percent on hydration, I was losing oven spring and manageability.  I felt that I had passed the point of diminishing returns; so I dialed it back to 68.  No oil.  Glad I did.  Not only was the dough easier to manage at every stage, but the oven spring was right where I want it, and the crust was firm and chewy but tender.   Glad I ventured off the beaten path with hydration and oil because now I know what's optimal for me.

Happy Super Bowl watching!

-  GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 04, 2015, 08:56:16 PM
Frome one "boy"  to another, that is a pie of beauty!!!

Can anyone compare FM FS to this Better for Bread flour, especially for multi-day CF. Does it develop beautiful complex flavors like B for B ?

 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 05, 2015, 03:53:52 PM
Thanks for the compliment, JPB.  Here's the same ingredients with a nine-day-old dough and better temperature control on the bake.  This was fantastic.

Edit:  Jersey, to answer your question, I've never used GMFS, but I've had pizzas that I knew were made with it at Luna Pizza in Simsbury CT, which was founded by an ex-Grimaldi's pizzaiolo.  Similar character, but hard to compare without firsthand experience or at least a side-by-side comparison.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 05, 2015, 04:07:26 PM
Thanks gb..
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on February 09, 2015, 03:08:36 AM
Have you ever tried Mozza? The crumb of your pies and the micro blisters on your crust remind me of Mozza's pizzas...

This is what 70 percent looks like at 4 days old.  Same ingredients minus the Boar's Head mozzarella.  Delicious.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bc5000 on February 17, 2015, 11:50:58 PM
I made a couple dough balls using the OP's recipe. I weighed everything. I used All Trumps High Gluten flour. Did everything exactly like the instructions said but it never has shown any sign of rising. It's now been in the fridge 3 days.

I have the dough in Ziplock plastic bowls and there never has been any gas build up. I've made dough for thin and crispy and I can't keep the lid from popping off.

I would make another batch but I don't know of anything that I could do different.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on February 18, 2015, 09:39:39 AM
bc5000,

I wouldn't give up just yet on the dough. Glutenboy's recipe calls for a small amount of yeast and the dough ball weight) is on the small side and can cool down very quickly once it is placed in the refrigerator. Also, if the water temperature that was used to make the dough was on the cold side, that can also slow down the fermentation rate. It is also possible that the dough did rise some but was not noticeable to the eye. You can see the progression of the rise when I made a dough using Glutenboy's recipe at Reply 78 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7761.msg72399#msg72399 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7761.msg72399#msg72399). In that case, the dough went out to eight days. See, also, the last paragraph of Reply 88 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7761.msg72459;topicseen#msg72459 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7761.msg72459;topicseen#msg72459).

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: bc5000 on February 18, 2015, 10:17:43 AM
The water I used was on the cool side. We'll see what happens when I go to cook one in a couple days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on March 05, 2015, 02:43:44 PM
Can anyone compare FM FS to this Better for Bread flour, especially for multi-day CF. Does it develop beautiful complex flavors like B for B ?
Almost good timing. I just put a glutenboy batch using FS into the fridge last night. I bought a bag of BfB yesterday and plan on making another batch either tomorrow night or the day after. I should know in a week.

fwiw, I used KABF before FS. I found FS to be more forgiving. (Elasticity and a tough, leathery bite.) It turned out that my old mixer was bashing my mixes to smithereens in a fraction of the time called for to mix batches. That "fix" had a much bigger affect on my crusts than any flour ever did.  A nominal effect is about the most I'm expecting out of this BfB test.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 05, 2015, 03:46:09 PM
Thanks rparker..I look forward to the results of the comparison.

GB,  made a couple of your pies a week or so ago, and though no photographic proof exists, I can tell you they were delicious..it's a great recipe. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on March 10, 2015, 02:01:50 PM
I did my FS and BfB tests today and Sunday. Each mix was 2-balls in the KA-600 mixer, .090 TF factor and 61% hydration. Both were baked on a Blackstone. I did over bake Sunday's.

This formulation likes water. Both bakes showed me 61% hydration was too low. 

I will revert back to a change I made when having mixer issues last December, which was to drop salt to 2.0% (IIRC) . This formulation needs the salt for strength, especially as time goes on. I would not drop much. One more thing I don't know is the effect on salt that increasing hydration has.

OK, so the winner for me is FS, but it's such a close call. The BfB batch had more oven spring inside of the oven rings, across the center of the pie. it cost me a tiny bit of the crunch layer and a tiny bit of the soft, savory layer of the crust. The outer rings, fwiw, were bigger on the FS.

That's also how minimal the difference was. The flavor was close to the same. Just a little bit different texture which was felt during the chew and the crunch. The BfB was a bit more leathery. It's very possible that I might be able to adjust mixing time a little bit on the BfB and come out closer. I'll try it again. I'd rather use BfB than have to order and go get the 50lb bag of FS. 10 miles one way and no shipping costs, so not that big a deal. That fact that I would do it right now if I had to get flour is probably telling.




Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 10, 2015, 04:04:10 PM
Thanks very much for doing those tests..good info to have
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 15, 2015, 04:15:34 AM
These pics are a 12-day, 69-percent, no-oil GB dough.  Great extensibility, no tearing, and lots of flavor.  Pardon my dirty fingernails.  :-[
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on March 16, 2015, 01:27:38 PM
 :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 17, 2015, 04:10:30 PM
When I posted the last batch of pics, I hadn't noticed the new activity on the thread.  RParker, thanks for giving the GB dough some attention.  I've always wanted to try FS flour, but haven't gotten around to it.  After all is said and done, is it worth going out of my way to get some for a side-by-side comparison? I'm very happy with the way the BFB is treating me, but I don't want to avoid being adventurous.  Pics of your results would be much appreciated too if you have any.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on March 18, 2015, 08:34:54 AM
glutenboy, I've made your formulation a bunch of times. The recent two batches were the first I've made of it since replacing my 90's era dough mangling and ruining KA machine. They came out fine. stretched fine and the bite was good. Alas, no pics. I'll be making more of this, for sure. The flavor and wide window was always a hit with me. I'll probably make another batch using FS in a week or two. I've got other experiments in the pipeline, but definitely want to do another glutenboy batch using FS.

One such experiment is in the fridge. I recently made an order to KA and got a couple bags of the KASL. I put up two balls of the glutenboy formula two nights ago. Probably end up being Friday's lunch. This might be my first glutenboy with oil.

I'll take some shots of the next glutenboy with FS.

Have you ever used sugar in this formulation? I'm also conjuring up a hybrid. For this hybrid, I think I'll actually need some sugar.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 18, 2015, 10:15:21 AM
I don't use sugar. That's mostly because  1) those old NY places I'm trying to emulate don't usually use it and  2) with my oven setup, I don't have trouble getting color on the crust. But if I did, I'd certainly consider it.  Can't wait to see what you're making.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JeffreyH on March 25, 2015, 08:26:19 PM
Hey Glutenboy....I'm sure it says in this thread somewhere....but what's your oven temp, pizza cooking surface and rack position?   I'm not getting quite the nice blacks and browns you're getting on crust...both on top and underneath. I'm still tinkering with position.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on March 27, 2015, 08:27:17 AM
I don't use sugar. That's mostly because  1) those old NY places I'm trying to emulate don't usually use it and  2) with my oven setup, I don't have trouble getting color on the crust. But if I did, I'd certainly consider it.  Can't wait to see what you're making.

- GB
I enjoy the added layer of flavor from sugar on other formulas. I'm dialing in the amount. Your formulation does not need it. There's a level of sweetness on it's own. (Sweetness is used for lack of a better word.)

The idea I'm working on got delayed a bit, but will probably find it's way into the mixer this weekend. It's more of a curiosity. A "What if?" moment. Two formulas I'm quite fond of is yours and a sour dough. I take the starter out at an earlier point than normal after the feeding so that acidity level is lower, leaving  nice, rich flavor. It's good at 1-day old and handles the fridge well enough to be very good up to around 5-days. At 5 or 6 days, the SD kicks in a little strong for how I like my pizza. The texture is outstanding, though. Different, but outstanding.

We all know what yours will do. The thought to add some IDY and mix it like yours came to mind. The SD is too extensive, so it can certainly handle the salt increase. Oil and hydration levels will work, too. I have no idea what will take over at various stages. I do know others hedge their bets with the starter by adding IDY, so it's been done. What I might have to do is figure out a way for the wild yeast to stay alive longer and not turn into an acidic blob.

So that's why the question of sugar. My assumption is that the right sugar will keep the SD wild yeast alive without sending the IDY into orbit. I've got the SD book by Ed Wood. Hopefully the answer lays within.

I do not expect this to succeed, but I don't learn if I don't try. Besides, happy accidents happen. That's what made me chase the rabbit down the hole after reduced acidity. Never would have known about it had been for a failed experiment.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 27, 2015, 08:34:46 AM
GB,

On those beautiful pies in #272, I'm drooling over the crumb shot (actually all of it) ..There is some oil brushed on the rim,  even though it's not formula oil..am I correct?  Either way, it's a WOW!

Rparker---Bunny pizza???  ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 29, 2015, 08:52:10 PM
Hey Glutenboy....I'm sure it says in this thread somewhere....but what's your oven temp, pizza cooking surface and rack position?   I'm not getting quite the nice blacks and browns you're getting on crust...both on top and underneath. I'm still tinkering with position.  Thanks.

Jeffrey -

My newest oven setup is a double layer of quarter-inch tiles placed on the rack in the lowest position.  This seems to give me the combo of heat and control best for even baking in my oven.  I have a gas oven with the flame on the bottom powering both the oven and the lower broiler.  In order to prevent the oven from shutting off, I managed to find the heat sensor clipped to the side of the oven and slide it out (still attached) through the stovetop.  I can put it back when needed, but when it's out, the oven never shuts off.  This allows me to achieve temperatures of God knows what.  I've never measured.  All I know is I'm getting great color and pretty short bake times.  I don't know if most ovens (mine is pretty old) can be hacked this easily, but heat, deck thickness and material, and oven-rack position for even bake are the most crucial elements in my opinion.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 29, 2015, 08:54:11 PM
GB,

On those beautiful pies in #272, I'm drooling over the crumb shot (actually all of it) ..There is some oil brushed on the rim,  even though it's not formula oil..am I correct?  Either way, it's a WOW!

Rparker---Bunny pizza???  ;)

Thanks, JPB.  There's no oil brushed on the rim, but I do drizzle generously over the topped area before baking.  There might be some splash, but I think the color's from my oven.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on March 30, 2015, 11:35:27 AM
Got a 69% GB dough in the fridge right now. I've made this dough before I had my stone, but with no browning agents and a perforated pan I was cooking it kinda long to get the color I wanted. Now that I know how to cook a pie much faster I'm anxious to try this one again.

I've only been making pies for a few months and I do a lot of experimenting, but I'm pretty sure this pie is when I tried the GB dough; at the original hydration ratio.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: zwarbles on March 30, 2015, 11:41:39 AM
What a beauty!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 30, 2015, 01:53:00 PM
Looks fantastic!  :o
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on March 31, 2015, 12:02:37 AM
Wow thanks guys! It was definitely this GB dough. Bel Gioioso mozz, sauce was Carmelina San Marzano with salt. I haven't made such a refined pie in a while. My sauce is usually a bit busier... I know what I'm making in a few days!  :pizza: :pizza:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on April 02, 2015, 07:36:02 PM
Just finished dinner. Dough went for 4 day in the fridge and had lots of flavor. This was 69% hydration and handled well. Love the simplicity of this dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 03, 2015, 01:37:35 AM
Wow.  That's the most Neapolitan-looking Glutenboy pie I believe I've seen.  Beautiful.  What kind of flour did you use?  Home oven?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: aspendos on April 03, 2015, 03:20:53 AM
Just finished dinner. Dough went for 4 day in the fridge and had lots of flavor. This was 69% hydration and handled well. Love the simplicity of this dough.

i agree with Glutenboy.Looks fantastic.  At which temperature did you bake? Which brand cheese is that?
what is your bakers percentage on your dough?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on April 03, 2015, 03:29:28 AM
What a compliment! Many thanks. I was going for Nearly-Politan and was quite surprised by the color and browning. I've never cooked a pie like this. Mozz is dry Galbani. I'll try fresh mozzarella next bake for less browning and a more neapolitan look.  Flour is King Arthur Bread Flour. My oven is messed up and does not match the temperature dial. If I put it at 200 degrees F it will be around 450.

I crank it to 550 and my hanging oven thermometer stops at 600 so no idea what the temperature of the oven actually is. I preheat the stone for an hour on the second to top rack and turn the broiler on while I stretch and dress my pizza skin. Baked around 3 minutes. I'm thinking of bumping the stone up to the top rack and seeing what happens. The flavor was great and the dough handled great. It was extensible but not gloopy, and gave no signs of sticking at all. Will be playing around with this a lot more.  :pizza:

Flour (100%):
Water (69%):
ADY (.2%):
Salt (2.5%):
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on April 03, 2015, 08:34:09 AM
I've gotten in that color and look area using my Black Stone, KABF and glutenboy formulations. The temps were over 725F, IIRC. There were a few at 825F or so, but I think they were had a little less browning. I'd guess somewhere between those temps. I'll be curious to know if you ever get an IR gun. Not important for anything, just curious.

Sadly, no pics or accurate bake temps in my notes.   I was running 65% hydration most of the time back then.

Oh, and nice pie!   :D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JeffreyH on May 04, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
I've been hovering and learning from all of you tremendous pizza makers for awhile now.  I haven't posted anything yet as I've been working on my dough and kind of waiting until I got to a good place...and this is where I'm at.   For quite some time I was a big fan of GM All Trumps flour, for taste, browning, crispiness and chewiness. But I always thought it was a bit too chewy...especially on reheated leftovers.  So I started working with lower protein/gluten flours. I eventually tried Pendleton Flour Mills (now Grain Craft) Mondako flour....which is quite a bit less in terms of protein, around 12% I believe (compared to 14.2% for All Trumps).  I had tried many in between as well.  Anyway, I am really liking the Mondako for all aspects....taste, crispiness, browning, chewiness....it's really the favorite by far.   Anyway here's a pic of a pizza I made with Mondako flour...about 59% hydration.  This is Burrata cheese with Proscuitto di Parma with fresh basil and olive oil.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on May 04, 2015, 03:29:10 PM
Very Nice Jeff!  Very nice.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 04, 2015, 05:18:38 PM
Beautiful.  A nice bubbly rim for 59 percent hydration.  Do you find that your optimal hydration has varied a lot as you have tried different flours?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 04, 2015, 05:43:29 PM
 GB, what is your most up-to-date formulation? I'm sure there's a link, but you have many links  :)

So with the long  fridge naps, even  with .2 or .3 IDY , as time passes, are your DBs not growing wet  from  gluten breakdown? Do you reball before baking with these more mature doughs?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JeffreyH on May 04, 2015, 05:47:25 PM
Glutenboy,

Absolutely. When I first started making dough, I would use one recipe and hydration amount and just swap out flours....which led to some sticky, messy doughs and some drier ones.

Also, I would always try to be super accurate with measurement in terms of water...and just go with whatever dough I got.

Nowadays, however, I start with a flour and a target hydration, but then I just wing it and get the ball of dough to the right hydration level just by feel.  This has been working pretty well and I feel like I'm pretty consistent with it.  I think it has eliminated a lot of the variables from flour to flour and allows me to taste-test based on the dough and how it cooks basically. 

My dough with Mandako flour is pretty close to 59% hydration, depending on weather, etc.  I started at 62% and went down and I like where it's at.

And the pizza in the pic is a 4 day proof in the fridge.  8 months of practicing and it was my best crust ever.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: CaptBob on May 04, 2015, 09:09:50 PM
Very Nice Jeff!  Very nice.  :chef:

 ^^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 04, 2015, 09:13:33 PM
 ^^^ and your topping choice sounds amazing..Keep 'em coming!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: clarkth on July 10, 2015, 12:15:17 AM

One such experiment is in the fridge. I recently made an order to KA and got a couple bags of the KASL. I put up two balls of the glutenboy formula two nights ago. Probably end up being Friday's lunch. This might be my first glutenboy with oil.


How did the KASL pies turn out?  What hydration % did you use?  I'm going to pick up a big bag of KASL next week and start using it with this formula and I'm hoping for a good HR starting point. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 10, 2015, 01:06:01 AM
How did the KASL pies turn out?  What hydration % did you use?  I'm going to pick up a big bag of KASL next week and start using it with this formula and I'm hoping for a good HR starting point.

According to my notes, I had good oven-spring and flavor. Texture was a bit more bready than I like, but I think that one was my fault as I did an autolyze. Two lasts for me on that batch. Last time with iodized salt and last time doing an autolyze.

I've done a few sourdough batches since and I find I does fairly well. It is strong stuff. I prefer it that way.

I use it some when I mess around with flour blends and need a strong one for part of the equation.  Seems to always fit the bill.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: clarkth on July 30, 2015, 10:18:14 AM
I made a batch last night with KASL and 65% water.  At the end I mixed for 5 minutes and let stand for 2 hrs before scaling and balling.  The dough was very sticky and hard to ball up, I had to wet my hands to ball and close.  Should the dough be so sticky?  Should I have mixed for a couple more minutes? 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 30, 2015, 05:37:17 PM
I made a batch last night with KASL and 65% water.  At the end I mixed for 5 minutes and let stand for 2 hrs before scaling and balling.  The dough was very sticky and hard to ball up, I had to wet my hands to ball and close.  Should the dough be so sticky?  Should I have mixed for a couple more minutes?
Everyone's is different with many different angles, but I've found just a tiny bit of working right after the 2 hour development and before the balling sort of finishes it off for me. One might even call it a very light stretch and fold, but extremely lightly and limited in duration. It's been a few months since my last GB batch, so I don't remember exactly how long. Just maybe 15 seconds was all it took.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 30, 2015, 05:48:44 PM
I made a batch last night with KASL and 65% water.  At the end I mixed for 5 minutes and let stand for 2 hrs before scaling and balling.  The dough was very sticky and hard to ball up, I had to wet my hands to ball and close.  Should the dough be so sticky?  Should I have mixed for a couple more minutes? 
I've never used KASL, but I have noticed that I need to vary my hydration, sometimes quite a bit, depending on what flour I'm using.  If it's so sticky that you can't ball it, you might want to lower the hydration a point or three.  I can tell you that I usually use GM Bread Flour.  When I used KA Bread flour, the dough was definitely stickier and I had to lower the hydration.  I know KABF and KASL are two entirely different animals, and I do like my dough to be on the sticky side, but if it's unmanageable, I would adjust.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: clarkth on July 31, 2015, 08:04:38 AM
Everyone's is different with many different angles, but I've found just a tiny bit of working right after the 2 hour development and before the balling sort of finishes it off for me. One might even call it a very light stretch and fold, but extremely lightly and limited in duration. It's been a few months since my last GB batch, so I don't remember exactly how long. Just maybe 15 seconds was all it took.

Thanks, I was thinking about doing a quick S&F but just powered through with the balling.  I've never used KASL before so I think it will take a couple of tries to figure it out.  Good thing I have 2 kids to help me destroy all the evidence after I bake my "mistakes"
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: clarkth on July 31, 2015, 08:08:16 AM
I've never used KASL, but I have noticed that I need to vary my hydration, sometimes quite a bit, depending on what flour I'm using.  If it's so sticky that you can't ball it, you might want to lower the hydration a point or three.  I can tell you that I usually use GM Bread Flour.  When I used KA Bread flour, the dough was definitely stickier and I had to lower the hydration.  I know KABF and KASL are two entirely different animals, and I do like my dough to be on the sticky side, but if it's unmanageable, I would adjust.

- GB  :chef:

GB,

Thanks, I'll lower the hydration a couple of points next time and maybe do a quick S&F at the end if needed (see above).  I found a place to get KASL for $20 for a 50# bag so I have plenty of flour to get the formula right  ;D  I'm going to let these dough balls sit for a week in the fridge, I'll post back next week how they turned out.

Thomas
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: clarkth on August 05, 2015, 09:59:55 PM
No pictures since both dough balls were a bit of a disaster.  They were very sticky coming out of the containers and super extensible, so much so that it was hard to keep in a round shape.  I had a hard time tossing the first one, so on the second one I just slapped once or twice on my arms.  Both got very big and thin quickly and didn't have an even consistency so there where a lot of thin spots. 

I think the problem was too high a hydration % with the KASL (65%).  I'll dial it back to about 61-62% next time and see what happens.

On the plus side the pizzas didn't taste too bad  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: xclarkx on December 20, 2015, 07:52:26 PM
Thank you Glutenboy for your great recipe!   :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:

But I have a bit of a problem.  If I use any bench flour at all, it immediately burns when I put the pie on my baking steels (having preheated my oven to ~600), so I have had to resort to cooking these pizzas on a screen. :o  It does turn out a good crust, but I'm curious, are you guys stretching the dough with or without bench flour, and if you're using screens or cooking directly on the stone (or steel). 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on December 20, 2015, 08:03:50 PM
For me, I have had good luck using 00 Caputo or equivalent for bench flour. I find it tolerates the heat much better, more burn/scorch resistant

jon
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 20, 2015, 09:10:02 PM
If that's a problem for you, I would assume it's not specific to my dough since it's the flour that's burning.  I've never had that experience.  I've heard of it with cornmeal on the peel but not flour.  The times I've wound up using too much bench flour, it's just tended to cake rather than burn.  If it's an issue of too much, I'll state the obvious and say that the dough should only be floured before it's stretched so that it distributes thinly as the dough is opened.  The peel should only be lightly dusted.  What I like to do is dust the peel minimally with bench flour and then sprinkle it liberally with semolina before I put down the skin for dressing.  BTW, I dress the pie on the peel rather than drag it on afterward as I've seen done in Neapolitan places.  My oven runs pretty hot, and I bake directly on the stone surface.  I've been a victim of burned crust from too much direct heat, but I've never attributed it to flour.  Please update on how you resolve it.

Good luck!

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GregO83 on March 29, 2016, 04:31:36 PM
I've been on the hunt for the perfect dough for my Blackstone oven and figured I'd give this a try.  I couldn't find all trumps flour so I substituted with KABF and the tiniest pinch of sugar.  They are resting at room temp now and I will ball them tightly at 350 grams for a 14" pie.  Does anyone think there will be a huge difference using KABF?

Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 29, 2016, 05:59:24 PM
I've used it myself.  The only thing that I vary with the flour is hydration, and I wind up going by feel.  If the dough felt right to you, you should be fine.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Bob_McBob on July 15, 2016, 05:13:27 PM
Is this dough usable the next day (possibly with more yeast), or will it require several days of fermentation?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 18, 2016, 08:15:35 PM
Oh it's usable, especially if you give it time at room temperature before stretching.  It just won't have the depth of flavor that a longer cold ferment provides.  I think there are lots of dough recipes here that might be more conducive to more taste with less time.  If I'm not mistaken, Craig uses diastatic malt powder to move things along and probably increase browning.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on August 22, 2016, 04:10:02 PM
Oh it's usable, especially if you give it time at room temperature before stretching.  It just won't have the depth of flavor that a longer cold ferment provides.  I think there are lots of dough recipes here that might be more conducive to more taste with less time.  If I'm not mistaken, Craig uses diastatic malt powder to move things along and probably increase browning.

- GB

I'm in the midst of fermenting this dough. I accidentally left the dough out at room temperature for about 3-4 hours rather than the "couple hours" you mentioned, which I translated as about 2 hours. It got fairly large and bubbly. Was this a mistake? Also, I deflated it before putting it in the fridge. Is that standard operating procedure, or should it have been left alone?  I'm noting a little bit of rise after being in the fridge about 18 hours (next day). Not much, but it's noticable. I assume that is normal. Should I deflate this thing daily as it ferments or just leave it alone until ready to work with it?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 22, 2016, 07:44:54 PM
In case, Glutenboy isn't around, I'll be a stand-in Boy...The dough should be fine...just let it enjoy its chilly rest. It'll develop good flavor over time. If it gets too active and show signs of over-fermentation, for example blows the lid off the container (unlikely in fridge, but I've had it happen at RT, you can reball it..but try to do it no closer to bake than 12 hours out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on August 31, 2016, 11:43:35 AM
So i have the opposite question of TurkeyonRye.  Once i balled the dough i stuck it right in the fridge completely forgetting about the 2hr room temp ferment.  I made this monday night and it's been in the fridge since.  I'm planning on making the pizza sun. night

Did i screw this up by not allowing it to ferment on the counter for a couple of hours before sticking it in the fridge?  I'm assuming the 2hrs on the counter is to help it get going.  I was thinking i A. might need to let it sit in the fridge longer than 6 days or B. the day i plan to use it sit on the counter for 2-4hrs?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 01, 2016, 04:13:58 PM
Thanks for filling in, Jersey Pie Boy.   ;D  Doing something different in order of operations like that rarely blows it.  Sometimes it even creates a happy accident and you decide to make it your new routine.  As long as it sits quietly in the fridge and rises on the counter when you take it out before stretching, I'll bet your pizzas will be fantastic.  Post pics!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 01, 2016, 04:16:12 PM
Happy to fill in  ;)  Different boy, still plenty of gluten LOL
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 03, 2016, 03:43:04 PM
Happy to fill in  ;)  Different boy, still plenty of gluten LOL
We are crusaders against gluten intolerance!!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 04, 2016, 10:52:02 AM
Yessir!  I feel great empathy for people who medically cannot eat gluten...


But for healthy people who've been convinced it's the latest fad diet..please. gimme a break!! They wouldn't even  know gluten if they saw it.  When Jay Leno was on the Tonight  Show,  he said he tried some gluten-free cookies. Until he ate those, he said , didn't know how much he loved gluten  :-D
 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jkb on September 04, 2016, 11:23:02 AM
I especially love the reaction I get when I tell people I use high gluten flour.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 04, 2016, 05:23:27 PM
 :-D. Me too
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on September 04, 2016, 08:13:22 PM
Made my GB pizza tonight after 6 days in the fridge and it was amazing.  The flavor was soo good and it spread out so nicely.  Made a sausage and onion with it.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2016, 08:31:02 PM
Tom,

Very nice. You can perhaps see why Glutenboy's dough recipe is so popular.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on September 05, 2016, 09:59:59 AM
Very much so, this will definitely become a regular in my house now :-)  I've been using the Reinhart Hybrid as my go to NY style, but this might take that over.

Plus i can tell myself it healthier because there is no sugar or oil in the dough haha
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 06, 2016, 03:40:03 PM
They look fantastic!  :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Stryda on September 06, 2016, 05:47:27 PM
Halved the recipe posted by GB on reply #5.
Dough was left to bulk rise at room temp for 2 hours, then balled and put in the fridge.
Made using Manitoba Flour 14.9% protein.
Made the first dough ball after 3 days, but the dough seemed to of risen too much in the fridge. The flavour was good but the dough crust wasn't good, I'm assuming due to it being over-fermented. I used half a teaspoon IDY. Not sure whether to use the other two dough balls still in the fridge?
I'll have to try this recipe again with less yeast, It's just the waiting for pizza that kills me!  :-D
(Last pic is of the dough taken immediately out of fridge)

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 06, 2016, 11:27:08 PM
You say the crust wasn't good.  Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Stryda on September 07, 2016, 03:08:13 PM
Yeah it had lost all of its strength and was wafer thin. I'm no dough expert but just assumed this was due to over-fermentation. Certainly not your recipe's fault! I went with your volume suggestion halved (1/2tsp) which weighed 3 grams, so I'll drop the yeast amount and try again. 😀
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 07, 2016, 08:41:34 PM
Looks as if it still had plenty of oven spring in the pics.  What was your weight per dough ball?  The pizzas in the pics look awfully small in diameter.  That could be a trick of perspective I suppose.  You're saying the dough was over the hill at 3 days?  That seems awfully fast.  More details if you have any please.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Stryda on September 08, 2016, 05:15:38 AM
I normally weigh the balls out but just split into 4 equal parts by eye this time. Pizza is about 13inch. Fridge temp 4c. And yeah getting a good rise from the oven.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on October 08, 2016, 06:28:07 PM
Made this Friday and again tonight for the 2nd and 3rd time, although I didn't get to eat tonight's as I took it to my aunt who just got out of the hospital a week ago.  The flavor in this is just soo good.

16" pepperoni is what I took to my aunt tonight after a 5 day cf.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on October 08, 2016, 06:36:30 PM
Awesome!!! ^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hammettjr on October 08, 2016, 06:54:56 PM
Awesome!!! ^^
^^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on October 08, 2016, 08:10:32 PM
That looks great!  :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on October 08, 2016, 08:27:48 PM
Thanks everyone!!

Big thanks to GB for the formula / idea.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on October 08, 2016, 08:48:12 PM
Made this Friday and again tonight for the 2nd and 3rd time, although I didn't get to eat tonight's as I took it to my aunt who just got out of the hospital a week ago.  The flavor in this is just soo good.

16" pepperoni is what I took to my aunt tonight after a 5 day cf.

Legit pie!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2016, 10:28:51 PM
Trossitte, I hope your aunt was able enjoy such a nice pie!   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: parallei on October 10, 2016, 10:36:12 PM
16" pepperoni is what I took to my aunt tonight after a 5 day cf.

You're a good nephew!  Nice pie too.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Trossite on October 11, 2016, 12:04:11 PM
Trossitte, I hope your aunt was able enjoy such a nice pie!   :chef:

She txt'd me the next day and wanted to know what they heck i put in the pizza as she woke up feeling better and having more energy than she has had since being in the hospital haha.
I might have to start making a lot more and test the magical healing properties of pizza!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on October 11, 2016, 02:47:02 PM
You know that penicillin was discovered by accident too; right?  Henceforth, please refer to me as Doctor Glutenboy, PD.  Glad to hear your aunt is perking up!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on October 11, 2016, 06:11:37 PM
Has the good doctor made a house call recently? Sure miss seeing pics of your stellar pies.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on October 11, 2016, 09:31:14 PM

16" pepperoni is what I took to my aunt tonight after a 5 day cf.

Trossite,
I love how the pepperoni sits nicely above the cheese on this pie.
 
Do you or others know why that occurs on some people's pizzas on not others?
Is it a sauce to cheese ratio thing?  Too wet and the pepperoni sinks?

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 11, 2016, 11:18:28 PM
DGBPD! You've found it..The Elixir of Life ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on October 12, 2016, 12:05:04 AM
Has the good doctor made a house call recently? Sure miss seeing pics of your stellar pies.
  I haven't lately, but it's about time, isn't it?  ^^^

DGBPD! You've found it..The Elixir of Life ;D
Yes, JPB.  Ponce de Pizza!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 12, 2016, 10:53:31 AM
 :) :pizza:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 23, 2016, 03:51:59 PM
Getting back to the basics.  My last few outings have been missing the mark; so I decided to take a few steps backward and make some dough the way I would've made it 7 years ago or so.  I had to replace the old GB oven, and the new one, while a similar model (I went to a place that restores used appliances to find an older gas oven of the same build) just wasn't running hot.  The broiler on the bottom would cut out at a certain temp.  Steaks under the broiler weren't getting the crust and medium-rare interior to which I'd become accustomed.  I decided to take a page from Varasano's book and modify.  No clean cycle to monkey with.  However, when I looked in the oven itself, I saw the heat sensor, held to oven wall by a simple clip.  It slid right out.  I followed the metal wire and discovered I could slide it out through the top of the oven.  I lifted the stovetop and was able to then remove it from the hot environment completely without disconnecting it.  It's now dangling behind the oven.  I can replace it when necessary for more delicate jobs, and I am once again the proud owner of a raging inferno.  I bought some new half inch quarry tiles (4x8) from Home Depot (had to order them online), and made a 16x20" deck, which just about covers the oven rack.  I did an experiment with some Trader Joe's dough to try to find the sweetest rack position, but that dough is such a limp noodle that it's hard to tell.  I know I have the heat, but I hope I have the dynamics for an even bake, top and bottom.

This dough is a GB made with GM Bread Flour (Harvest King), no oil, at 67-percent hydration (higher than I used to go, but I wanted a nice, airy crumb), mixed in 3 steps to develop the gluten while it was wet enough for the spiral dough hook to pull it.  3-hour counter rise, stretch-and-fold session, and then immediate balling, oiling, and refrigeration.  This pic is taken this morning after a night in the cooler.  The tomatoes I'm using are Red-Golds that I found at a Walmart I was walking through a few weeks ago.  I had recalled hearing good things about them years back.  I opened 1 can crushed and 1 can whole, and scalded them individually in a hot pan with some evoo, fresh garlic, crushed red pepper and sea salt.   I used an immersion blender on the whole tomatoes only after the heat, but I left some texture.  The tiles have been used a time or two; so they're no longer pristine, but this gives you an idea of the coverage and thickness.  I'm going to try the first pie on Xmas and hope Santa brings the magic.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on December 23, 2016, 04:54:19 PM
Excited to see the update! My pies have also not been the same since my oven was replaced. The temp just isn't there. Do you know what temp you get to by removing the probe?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 23, 2016, 05:00:07 PM
Excited to see the update! My pies have also not been the same since my oven was replaced. The temp just isn't there. Do you know what temp you get to by removing the probe?
No, I really don't, but since it now doesn't shut off until I turn it off, it's gotta be hitting its max after, I'd imagine, a couple of hours of preheating.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 23, 2016, 05:23:11 PM
GB...No IR reading before Bake Day?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 23, 2016, 05:39:15 PM
GB...No IR reading before Bake Day?
You are right, JPB.  It's time I got serious and picked one up.  Any recommendations?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 23, 2016, 11:06:57 PM
Sure, I like this one...inexpensive  and does the job.   Really handy..I use it in home oven and with BS. With the BS, it's a total necessity, in home oven it's so great especially for knowing when steel is reheated for next pie


https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-1080-Non-contact-Thermometer/dp/B00DMI632G/ref=pd_sbs_79_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=K06R3KDX3VC2QY7XVV0E
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 28, 2016, 04:54:42 AM
Sure, I like this one...inexpensive  and does the job.   Really handy..I use it in home oven and with BS. With the BS, it's a total necessity, in home oven it's so great especially for knowing when steel is reheated for next pie


https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-1080-Non-contact-Thermometer/dp/B00DMI632G/ref=pd_sbs_79_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=K06R3KDX3VC2QY7XVV0E
Thanks for the tip, JPB.  It'll be part of my next order from Amazon.  I usually try to get up to $50.00 before I order to get the free shipping on account of I'm cheap.  ;D

Had an old friend over who's home for the holidays from her studies in Italy.  She brought her Italian boyfriend, and I was very anxious to see his reaction to a GB pie.  They arrived bearing gifts from Palermo.  First there was one of the best bottles of wine I've ever tasted, and second was a salami, which was out of this world.  I used thin slices of it on the first pie (pictured below).  Four of us ate two 14-inch pizzas and salad.  The first pie was basically a Margherita with some toppings, which consisted of the salami, hot Italian sausage, mushrooms, and some fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

First of all, the oven and new tiles wound up performing beautifully.  Just the right amount of color on top and char underneath.  We were hungry; so I forgot to get the upskirt, but it was beautiful.  Secondly, the dough handled very nicely.  At 67 percent hydration, it was a little extensible; definitely not a throwing dough, but the crust was crisp, airy and foldable with five days of flavor under its belt.  It was a big hit, and the rendered fat from that salami kicked up the flavor and savoriness more than a notch.  I definitely feel like I've worked out a lot of the bugs and am back in business.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on December 28, 2016, 08:07:37 AM
....... I definitely feel like I've worked out a lot of the bugs and am back in business.  :chef:
It very much appears that way from this angle. A very nice looking pie you got there. 5 days is nice.   :drool: 

Congrats on the oven fix and the resulting successful entertaining.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 28, 2016, 12:51:31 PM
It looks beautfiul, GB! Welcome back to Boyhood  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on December 28, 2016, 12:55:45 PM
Wicked pie GB! Nice to see your edible art again  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 29, 2016, 04:30:17 AM
Used up the last of the dough tonight at the tender age of six days.  The new oven, much to my relief, is a worthy successor to the original.  Below are a pic of the undercarriage and a crumb shot.  I'm very happy with the results.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 29, 2016, 07:16:34 AM
Looks so delicious.!  So what kind of bake time are you getting? That should be a pretty close indicator of your temperature until that Amazon order with IR gun arrives
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2017, 12:21:52 PM
Got the IR thermometer, JPB!  Stone temp read 672 after a 2-hour preheat.  This is my own creation.  Sharp provolone, alta baddia (a cheese I found a while ago at Trader Joe's that is delicious by itself and melts beautifully), spinach, some sun-dried tomatoes, fresh rosemary and thyme, fresh mozzarella, crumbled goat cheese, a sprinkle of chopped fresh garlic, some shaved pecorino, and a drizzle of oil.  Great flavor.  The cheese blend was succulent but not stringy, the sun-dried tomatoes added an occasional burst of sweetness, the herbs and garlic were fragrant, and the spinach was spinachy.  It's in the rotation from now on.  Dough was 66-percent hydration with no oil.  I think 66 is officially my sweet spot with Harvest King.  I've gone up; I've gone down.  Sixty six does it for me.  The pic makes the crust look paler than it was.  The browning was actually great, and there were spots of char on the undercarriage that I was too hungry to document.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 23, 2017, 01:00:27 PM
That looks absolutely delicious, GB!  Glad you got your IR...makes it a lot easier to keep track of things! Doing couple of pies myself tonight...that's the good part. The bad part is they're mainly 00 flour and I need to bake them in the BS...and there's a nor'easter coming through..Will hide in garage with door open, but if it's too windy, keeping the flame going might be a challenge. Does GB pizza do cross-country delivery?  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 23, 2017, 01:08:08 PM
Looks very nice, GB!

Bill, good luck with the pies and storm tonight.

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 23, 2017, 01:20:03 PM
Thanks Roy...Yikes!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2017, 01:59:27 PM
Thanks, JPB and Roy. Not sure I can get that order out in time for dinner tonight, JPB. You'll have to take your chances cooking in the blizzard. You really should document it on video if you can. I smell a viral hit. The inclement chef.   :-D :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 23, 2017, 03:31:25 PM
LOL, GB..no blizzard here, just some rain and wind. Dough may get couple extra points of HR   :-D  I think I'll be dry in the garage, and with only two pies on the ticket, done in no time. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 23, 2017, 03:50:26 PM
Glad to hear no white stuff.  :chef: 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 23, 2017, 04:34:13 PM
Hopefully only white stuff will be fresh mozz  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 23, 2017, 05:19:03 PM
GB, I saw your quarry tiles and saw the slightly sagging oven rack. I use fire bricks these days. Wicked heavy. I was getting too much soupy built up in the center as a result. That was until I found a solution just too simple and is kind of embarrassing to admit that it took me months to come up with. I thought I'd share just in case something like this can help.

All's I gotta do is get another blade so I can reduce the width a bit. No biggie, though.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 23, 2017, 05:38:34 PM
GB, I saw your quarry tiles and saw the slightly sagging oven rack.
How could you point out my saggy rack in public like that?  Very insensitive.   >:D

No really that's a great idea.  I don't think it's going to get much worse on mine unless I get bricks like yours, but I can only imagine what your bricks would do without that support.  How long do those take to preheat thoroughly?  And what are the dimensions of your baking surface?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 23, 2017, 06:09:50 PM
How could you point out my saggy rack in public like that?  Very insensitive.   >:D

No really that's a great idea.  I don't think it's going to get much worse on mine unless I get bricks like yours, but I can only imagine what your bricks would do without that support.  How long do those take to preheat thoroughly?  And what are the dimensions of your baking surface?
:-D :-D  My apologies. Sometimes I just blurt things out.  >:D

These are heavier, denser of the ones I've tried. In that rack position, It takes 20 minutes for the oven to pre-heat and another hour after that to get good and saturated. I usually just time it so that I'm launching 90 minutes after I turn the oven on. I can do a second pie after about 4-5 minutes of recovery. Blackstone takes 20 minutes and then flame all the way down and let it cool off for 5 mins. Recovery time is similar. I just bump the flame up half way for a few minutes.
 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 24, 2017, 03:06:27 AM
Here's a sausage and mushroom pie on a five-day-old dough ball.  Half fresh basil, other half fresh oregano.  Not sure which I prefer.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jkb on January 24, 2017, 07:31:38 AM
LOL, GB..no blizzard here, just some rain and wind. Dough may get couple extra points of HR   :-D  I think I'll be dry in the garage, and with only two pies on the ticket, done in no time.


We got rain, sleet and snow farther north.  I spent more time picking up branches than I did snowblowing this morning.  At least we didn't lose power.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: CaptBob on January 24, 2017, 08:28:56 AM
Here's a sausage and mushroom pie on a five-day-old dough ball.  Half fresh basil, other half fresh oregano.  Not sure which I prefer.

That's a real beauty!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 24, 2017, 08:43:06 AM
Very nice again, GB. Just curious, What's your bake time with this set up and temperature range?

jkb, glad to hear you're sill powered up with only minor damage.

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 24, 2017, 11:33:56 AM
Some real nice blistering, GB (not to mention a beauty of a pie). The hydration level, you think? Dough age?


We just must have caught the corner of the storm. Rain was heavy but not torrential. With BS safely in garage, bake went just fine. Only time I got even a drop of rain was when i went to put car back in garage.


How to make pizza:
1) open dough, dress dough, bake dough in BS in garage
2) Put car back in garage  :-D



Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jkb on January 24, 2017, 12:52:14 PM

jkb, glad to hear you're sill powered up

Thanks,  but that's no longer the case.  Gotta love Google voice recognition.  :-D


Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 24, 2017, 10:04:47 PM
Thanks for the props, Bob and Roy, and JPB.  Questions and Answers:

Roy, I finally got an IR thermometer and got a deck reading of 672.  My bake times are in the 7-8 minute range when the oven has been going a while; so I definitely get some bite to my crust.  That's fine with me because it's exactly what I was after, but this oven is definitely maxed out.  If I wanted to get into NP range or even, I suppose, a more tender NY Style, I think I'd at least need the baking steel if not a new setup.

JPB, as far as blistering goes, I know many discuss and speculate as to the cause.  Its definitely, for me at least, the age of the dough.  I need to get to about 4 days before it really gets going, and that's pretty consistent.  I'll say that when I lowered my hydration this last time to 66, the blistering definitely became more pronounced.  The dough handled much better too.  So I'm going to say that your conjecture is on target on both counts.  I think those days in the cooler are really the key though.  Glad to hear that pizza prevailed over weather!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 25, 2017, 12:33:01 AM
Thanks GB..great results!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 25, 2017, 07:25:40 AM
Thanks,  but that's no longer the case.  Gotta love Google voice recognition.  :-D
Shouldn't have that been plural, or am I assuming the wrong word?   ;D ;D   I hope it's back on, at least.

.......Roy, I finally got an IR thermometer and got a deck reading of 672.  My bake times are in the 7-8 minute range when the oven has been going a while; so I definitely get some bite to my crust.  That's fine with me because it's exactly what I was after, but this oven is definitely maxed out.  If I wanted to get into NP range or even, I suppose, a more tender NY Style, I think I'd at least need the baking steel if not a new setup.
.......
I'm with you on that. I like mine with some bite on the crust as well. I always liked the reheated slices thing as long as not too old. If I try to bake the extra crunch thing, I set my rack on that slot below where it was in the picture and bake for 6-3/4 to 7 minutes. If I time it right, I get crunch and good chew with an easy bite through.

7-1/2 minutes using a very strong dough will get me a bottom that looks like the ones from De Lorenzo's some. I've never been there, so it's impossible to know how close it is. Good eats, though. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 28, 2017, 12:39:19 AM
Just got a deck temp of 707.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 28, 2017, 07:41:45 AM
Just got a deck temp of 707.
Dang! Did it treat you right?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 28, 2017, 08:02:55 AM
GB...How'd you do that??
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: waynesize on January 28, 2017, 09:13:58 AM
Wow!  I think 629 is as hot as I have managed with my setup.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 28, 2017, 07:02:53 PM
How did I do it?  Left the oven on for 2 hours with the door closed!   Once I opened  it, I was unable to duplicate the initial reading.  Maybe the trapped hot air contributed.  Subsequent readings were anywhere from 670-694, which is, I suppose still pretty great.   The pizza was my last dough from this batch.  It was 8 days old and opened beautifully.  The oven spring was a little less than the 5-day-old version.  Great flavor with good browning and char.  Very good foldability.  A little more leathery that the younger dough, but that didn't make it bad.  I thought it was very old-school NY style.  When I sliced it, the pan flipped.  The pizza flew through the air.  I stood and watched helpless.  It landed cheese up!!!  A sausage and mushroom or two flew off, but they tasted really good from the floor.   :-D  The pizza was completely intact.  That's my story.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on January 29, 2017, 12:16:42 AM
That's pretty impressive on many counts. Oven temp. Cheese-side up. All good.  :-D

Curious on the CF thing. Have you ever tried doing something like .25% sugar in efforts to keep it from eating gluten? I know there a are a lot of other factors.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 29, 2017, 10:00:21 AM
Thanks GB....i've recently begun eating off the floor. Good enough for the dog, good enough for me :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GregO83 on February 01, 2017, 07:16:12 PM
GB,

Thank you so much for this amazing recipe.  I have been using it for almost a year on the black stone.  I got my hands on some all trumps flour and it's made a big difference too.  I make 14 oz doughs but just visited an amazing pizza place in Brooklyn with very thin crust.  I am going to try and replicate that with  this dough on my blackstone around 800 degrees with the 300 grams you recommend and stretch out thinner than my usual crust. 

One issue I'm having even with my 14oz doughs is that sometimes my pies give out and it's hard to hold.  This is MOST likely due to my heavy hands with toppings :)

Does anyone have a blackstone on this thread? 

I'm also trying to get my sauce just right.  I've only tried San Marzano once and it was pretty watery.  I hand crushed all the tomatoes and added some spices and a dash of oil.  Any recommendations on sauce would be great! :)

Thanks again.   
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Basquerider on February 01, 2017, 08:28:27 PM
Here's GB dough.  It is only 3 days.  It was one of my best, but not sure the second one will last another 4 days.  It was very good, tender rim with good flavor.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 02, 2017, 01:40:10 AM
Here's GB dough.  It is only 3 days.  It was one of my best, but not sure the second one will last another 4 days.  It was very good, tender rim with good flavor.
Looks beautiful.  You don't mention salt as far as the tomatoes go.  Essential to bring out the zing for my taste.  Glad the dough's working well for you!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 13, 2017, 02:00:55 AM
Here's sausage, mushroom, and fresh basil on a 1-week-old, no-oil, Harvest King, 66-percent-hydration dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: sandiegokayaker on April 24, 2017, 06:00:21 PM
Could I please have the formulation necessary and details  if I only make 2-6 pizza doughs at a time at the most.

I also will hand knead the dough since I do not own a mixer just a vitamix.

I will be cooking it on a camp chef stove with the artisan pizza oven.

I need help as I am a native NYer living in San Diego and most of my pizza efforts have been futile.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: sandiegokayaker on April 26, 2017, 11:50:31 AM
I am going to try your formulation as well as others to try to dial in a NY pizza for my tastes.

I m going to cut your amounts in half hopefully there won't be any ill effects.

Would you say that your crust comes out as a light one or a heavy one? I am looking for  a 70s style NY pizza crust.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: johner on May 05, 2017, 01:39:45 PM
Hi,
Has anyone tried this dough on Blackstone pizza oven? I am curios to know how this dough behaves on Blackstone.
For those who lives in Bay Area, is there a local dealer for All Trumps flour?

Thank you, all.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: kuhne on May 05, 2017, 04:18:13 PM
Sorry if this has been asked before. I just got into making pizzas about a month ago but I've been mainly trying to get neapolitan style right before I move on to NY style. I bought a 00 caputo flour blue bag and been baking on my grill attachment and now I am sort of ready to move on to NY style. I would not be using the grill for that since the temp is too high and I read this recipe is good for 600 degrees. So I ordered a 1/2 steel that hasn't arrived yet and have a kitchen oven that can get my 5/8 cordierite stone to about 575/600 with a pre heat of about 45 minutes then turning the top broiler on for another 15. Seems to me like that would be the correct equipment to start experimenting this recipe on.

My only question is about the flour. I also have a bag of Caputo Americana flour. Would that be the correct flour to use for this recipe, in that oven?

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 06, 2017, 12:59:35 PM
I also have a bag of Caputo Americana flour. Would that be the correct flour to use for this recipe, in that oven?


I've never used it with my formula, but Essen has used it in his NY-style pies with great success.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on May 06, 2017, 03:24:14 PM

My only question is about the flour. I also have a bag of Caputo Americana flour. Would that be the correct flour to use for this recipe, in that oven?

The Caputo Americana is a fantastic flour for NY-style pizza. I have used it, and still do, extensively and it continues to deliver. However, the mixing/kneading times are a tad longer than with flours like, lets say, Grain Craft's Power or TG's "00" flour. The Caputo is made from soft wheat and delivers a softer dough but it is perfect for what you want to use it for.

But, the Caputo can do any style, it's just a matter of formulas. It truly shines at hydrations between 60% - 65% and temps around 600°F.

Some pies and a calzone I've made with it to show you...

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on May 07, 2017, 10:53:43 PM
I just don't understand the allure of Caputo Americana. They are shipping wheat from the US and Canada to Italy. Grinding it. Bagging it. Shipping it back. I can get great flour that is malted, more fresh, and more local, at half the cost of the Americana. Why wouldn't I use KA or Central Milling? Plus all of these new mills popping up throughout the states.

Even if I were making Neapolitan, I wouldn't use the Caputo. Truthfully, I came to the conclusion GM made better 00 flour when I tested it side by side.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: PizzaManic on May 08, 2017, 09:12:51 AM
Man that Calzone looks wicked

When will I ever reach the levels of pie produced by Essen1  :'(
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 08, 2017, 02:07:39 PM
Some pies and a calzone I've made with it to show you...

Works of art!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 08, 2017, 02:20:24 PM
 ^^^  Yes, totally
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: johner on May 13, 2017, 10:46:43 PM
My third time cooking on my new blackstone. Also my second try with this dough. This time, I used high gluten flour instead of AP(smart&final la romanella high gluten). The dough waited in the fridge for 2 days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hammettjr on May 14, 2017, 10:46:10 AM
My third time cooking on my new blackstone. Also my second try with this dough. This time, I used high gluten flour instead of AP(smart&final la romanella high gluten). The dough waited in the fridge for 2 days.

Looking good! How'd it taste? That's a beastly retrieving peel. Puts my cookie spatula to shame  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: johner on May 14, 2017, 11:00:49 AM
Looking good! How'd it taste? That's a beastly retrieving peel. Puts my cookie spatula to shame  :)
Thank you.
Despite being fairly cheap flour, the taste was good. I wish the crust was a little more crunchy outside and gooey inside. It could be because of the high heat blackstone baking. Next time, I will try to maintain 650F.

The spatula is truly awesome! I had hard time time with my aluminum peel on blackstone on my first two trials. I  would recommend this peel to anyone who is having hard time to load their dough. It truly works as advertised!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01N2VUBKG/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1494774016&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=Non+stick+pizza+peel
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on May 15, 2017, 11:22:58 AM
gb,

thanks for keeping this thread alive, it was a wonderful read. To date, I've been using craig's same-day rt formulation with LDM. I'm still learning the basics of pizza making but thought it might be fun to taste pizza with a longer, cold fermented dough side-by-side with my current pie. Given your meticulous documentation, I have a sense of how to replicate your crust but how do you achieve that artfully composed canvass of cheese and sauce?

 Are you thinly slicing fresh mozz? is there a little sauce on top of the cheese? how is it that the cheese pools instead of running together? Enquiring minds want to know!

best,
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 16, 2017, 04:24:19 PM
gb,

thanks for keeping this thread alive, it was a wonderful read. To date, I've been using craig's same-day rt formulation with LDM. I'm still learning the basics of pizza making but thought it might be fun to taste pizza with a longer, cold fermented dough side-by-side with my current pie. Given your meticulous documentation, I have a sense of how to replicate your crust but how do you achieve that artfully composed canvass of cheese and sauce?

 Are you thinly slicing fresh mozz? is there a little sauce on top of the cheese? how is it that the cheese pools instead of running together? Enquiring minds want to know!

best,
That artfully composed canvas!!!   :-D  Thank you.  The dirty secret is that I'm not Jackson Pollack.  I'm a monkey flinging paint.  I think it's the grind of the sauce and the brand of the cheese you're seeing.  Usually I use 1 can of whole tomatoes, drained, scalded, and then stick blended pretty much to puree.  I also use a can of crushed tomatoes prepared separately.  I customarily don't touch those with the blender, but the consistency of the product and my mood both come into play.  Cheese is some freshly grated reggiano and pecorino romano (Locatelli is my favorite) and thinly sliced Belgioioso fresh mozz from the cryo-pack log.  Then comes a pretty heavy-handed drizzle of Santini EVOO.  It's my favorite.  Trader Joe's sells it under their store-brand label, but it's Santini (pic attached).  I can't personally vouch for any quality or pedigree; just the flavor and feel.  When it drips off the pie, you want to lick it off the plate.  So order of topping is:

1) Tomato

1) reggiano and pecorino

3) fresh mozz

4) any additional topping(s)

5) generous pour of olive oil over the entire pie

6) fresh basil when it comes out of the oven

That's how the monkey flings the paint.  I wanted to say his poo, but I felt that would be inappropriate while we're discussing food.  :-X

EDIT:  It's not always Belgioioso fresh mozz, but it's always a dry fresh mozzarella.  One brand I tried that's very good but hard to find is Murray's cheese.  It's kind of boutique and expensive.  Here in L.A. it's sold at Ralphs supermarkets (only some of them for some reason), which is part of the Kroger chain.  I don't like the Galbani much though some would differ on that.  They all have somewhat unique melts and textures; so I guess it boils down to personal taste.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: cheftrader on June 12, 2017, 08:35:10 PM
If I want to freeze the dough balls, when would be the best time to do that?

Also after the cold fermentation in the fridge do I pull them and let them come to room temp a couple hours before I make the pizza?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on June 13, 2017, 06:49:54 PM
If I want to freeze the dough balls, when would be the best time to do that?

Also after the cold fermentation in the fridge do I pull them and let them come to room temp a couple hours before I make the pizza?
First of all, I've never frozen one!  If I were going to, I'd probably first let it settle in for a bit in the fridge.  This is pure conjecture, but I imagine freezing pretty much halts the fermentation process; so whenever you freeze it, don't count time frozen toward time cold fermenting.  I find a couple of hours on the counter in the warm kitchen before using gives me a much better stretch and a more bubbly rim, which I like.  Hope that helps.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 06, 2017, 03:16:44 AM
This one is an eight-day, no-oil, GB dough at 66 percent hydration.  I decided to try something, and my initial impression is that it definitely made a difference.  I used, as I usually do, IDY, but I decided to treat it like ADY and dissolve it in the entire volume of water before mixing anything.  I didn't really proof it in the sense of checking for activity.  Call me crazy, but I really think it improves both the crumb and the flavor.  Perhaps it's just because the yeast is so evenly distributed throughout the dough right from square one...?  Anyway, here are some shots of the finished product.  This is a 14-inch pie made from a 310-gram dough ball.  The toppings are Sclafani whole, scalded for less than a minute with garlic and red pepper in some evoo before blending with the stick blender.  I discarded the water, but mixed that with a similarly prepped but not-blended can of Muir Glen crushed tomatoes.  Blend of freshly grated pecorino and reggiano on top of the sauce.  Then Boar's Head fresh mozzarella, very thinly sliced, which was okay.  Then sausage, mushroom, pre-bake drizzle of EVOO, and fresh basil after the bake.  Here are some pics.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 06:47:52 AM
GB, that looks exceptional. Especially for an 8-day'er. Mine became to inconsistent and I stopped doing them. At least not while mine is in such flux these days.

You just added the IDY water to the mix as soon as it was dissolved, then? 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 06, 2017, 02:38:11 PM
GB, that looks exceptional. Especially for an 8-day'er. Mine became to inconsistent and I stopped doing them. At least not while mine is in such flux these days.

You just added the IDY water to the mix as soon as it was dissolved, then? 
I didn't really clock the time between adding the yeast to the water, which was warm, and the beginning of mixing the dough.  It wasn't too long.  Within 5-7 minutes or so.  I mixed as I always do.  Start with part of the flour (probably half or so), start the mixer on low, and add all the H2O.  Then mix, periodically stopping to add portions of the flour until I can see those stretchy filaments of gluten.  Salt goes in before it gets too firm.  Lots of mixing and adding flour until it's all incorporated.  Frequently, I do some hand stretching and folding after the mixing because I want to see whether it feels right.  Couple of hours on the counter.  Despite the low yeast amount, I get lots of rise, probably more than double.  Then scale, ball, oil, and refrigerate.  I burp the containers as needed, about every two days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2017, 02:55:16 PM
GB,

Member November preferred ADY over IDY but he said that he would prehydrate IDY just as he would ADY but start at a water temperature of 104 degrees F:

Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030;topicseen#msg34030.

Tom Lehmann recommends prehydrating IDY if the total mix time is below about five minute or if the dough is mixed by hand.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: HansB on July 06, 2017, 02:57:09 PM
I always dissolve IDY into RT water as my first step. As soon as it is dissolved I add flour, salt then mix. Seems to work for me.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 06, 2017, 04:16:13 PM
GB,

Fantastic pie!

Regarding TJ's olile oils, I'm really fond of their TJ's Premium 100% Greek Kalamata EVOO. Develops a really nice flavor on a pie and is fantastic for salads as well as cooking.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 05:03:54 PM
GB,

Member November preferred ADY over IDY but he said that he would prehydrate IDY just as he would ADY but start at a water temperature of 104 degrees F:

Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030;topicseen#msg34030.

Tom Lehmann recommends prehydrating IDY if the total mix time is below about five minute or if the dough is mixed by hand.

Peter
Peter,
I've been looking since a short time after you posted this. Perhaps you can remember or point me to the reason why Member November liked the dead yeast cell count of ADY. Some people who use ADY swear by it more passionalty than I swear by CY.
Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 05:12:56 PM
I didn't really clock the time between adding the yeast to the water, which was warm, and the beginning of mixing the dough.  It wasn't too long.  Within 5-7 minutes or so.  I mixed as I always do.  Start with part of the flour (probably half or so), start the mixer on low, and add all the H2O.  Then mix, periodically stopping to add portions of the flour until I can see those stretchy filaments of gluten.  Salt goes in before it gets too firm.  Lots of mixing and adding flour until it's all incorporated.  Frequently, I do some hand stretching and folding after the mixing because I want to see whether it feels right.  Couple of hours on the counter.  Despite the low yeast amount, I get lots of rise, probably more than double.  Then scale, ball, oil, and refrigerate.  I burp the containers as needed, about every two days.
Thanks, GB. I remember your method well. Using it turned me onto CF for life.  :chef: 

Did you try an earlier bake, like a 4-5 day old to see if it had any impact?

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 06, 2017, 05:23:01 PM
GB,

Fantastic pie!

Regarding TJ's olile oils, I'm really fond of their TJ's Premium 100% Greek Kalamata EVOO. Develops a really nice flavor on a pie and is fantastic for salads as well as cooking.
Thanks for the props, Mike.  ;D  The TJ Kalamata is my close-second favorite to the Santini.

Thanks, GB. I remember your method well. Using it turned me onto CF for life.  :chef: 

Did you try an earlier bake, like a 4-5 day old to see if it had any impact?

Roy
Yes, I've been eating pizza since day four!  Definitely more depth of flavor even then than I'd get from a fresher dough.  The trade off is that after about day 5 or six, the stretch gets a bit more delicate; however the flavor,, texture, and crumb get better.  I'm hoping I can use up my two remaining doughs before they hit the wall.
GB,

Member November preferred ADY over IDY but he said that he would prehydrate IDY just as he would ADY but start at a water temperature of 104 degrees F:

Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg34030;topicseen#msg34030.

Tom Lehmann recommends prehydrating IDY if the total mix time is below about five minute or if the dough is mixed by hand.

Peter
Interesting!  Last time I made dough, I was out of IDY; so I opened an envelope of ADY and took what I needed.  I, of course, dissolved it first, and the difference was noticeable then.  This time I decided to try the same procedure with IDY to see whether it was the yeast or the process that was responsible for the difference.  I think I may have liked the ADY better, but it's a subtle distinction.  Now that I think about it, the batch made with ADY may have actually taken fewer days to develop the characteristics I like.  Now I've got to do a side-by-side comparison to be sure.  I think I'll wait at least a week so I can get a little fiber into my diet.   :-X
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2017, 05:30:53 PM
Peter,
I've been looking since a short time after you posted this. Perhaps you can remember or point me to the reason why Member November liked the dead yeast cell count of ADY. Some people who use ADY swear by it more passionalty than I swear by CY.
Roy
Roy,

I think November's preference for the ADY had to do with flavor. possibly because ADY contains about 70% dead cells. See, for example, Reply 74 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg66530#msg66530. I did a search of his posts and Reply 74 was the best I could find on the subject.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 06, 2017, 05:45:10 PM
The TJ Kalamata is my close-second favorite to the Santini.


It's been a few years actually that I used the Santini. Can't remember the all the details. I'll get a bottle again since I have a TJ's just around the corner.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 05:50:10 PM
Yes, I've been eating pizza since day four!  Definitely more depth of flavor even then than I'd get from a fresher dough.  The trade off is that after about day 5 or six, the stretch gets a bit more delicate; however the flavor,, texture, and crumb get better.  I'm hoping I can use up my two remaining doughs before they hit the wall.
I found the same result on flavor. Actually two little steps. One was just doing it while the other was to wait for it to take on a pungent odor, which takes me about 12-15 minutes.

On the delicate nature of the dough, I countered it with basically some additional mixing time and some massaging at the end to balance it all out. Getting all that balanced out actually helped with the flavor, too, though probably coincidental in nature. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 06, 2017, 05:56:28 PM
Roy,

I think November's preference for the ADY had to do with flavor. possibly because ADY contains about 70% dead cells. See, for example, Reply 74 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg66530#msg66530. I did a search of his posts and Reply 74 was the best I could find on the subject.

Peter
Peter, thanks for that. I'll pursue further from there.
Roy
ps - my search turned up that thread, but much earlier in it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on July 08, 2017, 11:57:17 PM
Roy,

I think November's preference for the ADY had to do with flavor. possibly because ADY contains about 70% dead cells. See, for example, Reply 74 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7740.msg66530#msg66530. I did a search of his posts and Reply 74 was the best I could find on the subject.

Peter

Peter, a month or two ago I was researching the differences btw ady, idy and fresh yeast. I recall a post you put together with links to different yeast manufacturers.  I followed many of the links and recall one of the manufacturers marketing material for ady stated something like "we have the same dead yeast flavor you've grown used to". (I'm sure I've mangled the quote but could probably dig it up.)

In any case, I thought the statement at odds with Tom L's finding that after a broad set of trials, he failed to detect any real differences between fresh yeast, ady and idy. I never pursued it with Tom.

best,
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 13, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
I had two 15-day-old dough balls left over from the last batch.  I'd pretty much given up on using them but hadn't found the heart to toss them yet.  I got my hands on some Sclafani crushed and decided to dig a dough ball out from the back of the fridge.  The dough showed no obvious signs of deterioration.  I put it on the counter to rise, cranked the oven, prepped the Sclafanis -- which are mild, sweet, and fresh tasting right out out of the can -- with some garlic, red pepper, and salt, and waited to see what the dough would do.  It rose on the counter like a champ.  At the 1.5-hour mark, I stretched the skin, which was a bit delicate but not troublesome.  The tomatoes were the perfect consistency for saucing without any further modification.  I grated some pecorino romano and reggiano over them and added the fresh mozzarella (Belgioioso -- still my favorite though it doesn't get much love here), sausage, shrooms, and EVOO.  Then it was an easy launch into the oven except for the fact that I dropped the back of the pie a bit too far forward, resulting in the front edge drooping off the deck.  I got it back on, but there was a little smoosh on one side.  The pie was delish.  The Sclafanis, I think, have the freshest, brightest tomato flavor I've gotten from a can in at least a very long time, maybe ever.  I'm going to say they're my new favorite.  As far as the dough goes, I can't say that fifteen days is better than eight; they're both good, but that dough definitely has quite a shelf life in a cold fridge.  Here's the product.  It was late, and I was too hungry to shoot the whole swimsuit issue.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on July 13, 2017, 07:07:20 PM
wow, that does look delicious! We've only tried scalfani and trader joes, which are white-labeled escalon tomatoes. So far, everyone much prefers the scalfani.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 13, 2017, 09:11:21 PM
wow, that does look delicious! We've only tried scalfani and trader joes, which are white-labeled escalon tomatoes. So far, everyone much prefers the scalfani.
That's interesting about the Trader Joe's.  Which of their tomato products is Escalon, and which actual Escalon products do they correspond to, if you know?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on July 13, 2017, 09:43:19 PM
I think I just prefer whole peeled. Something about being packed in juice. I recently got a case of Sclafani crushed but I prefer Cento or DiNapoli WP.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 13, 2017, 10:39:14 PM
wow, that does look delicious! We've only tried scalfani and trader joes, which are white-labeled escalon tomatoes. So far, everyone much prefers the scalfani.

Are you sure the TJ's canned tomatoes are produced by Escalon? I have tried them numerous times and thought they were subpar; not to mention the metallic aftertaste. Never experienced that with any Escalon products.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 13, 2017, 10:42:06 PM
GB,

Stellar as always! I see you used your of "heavy" hand on the EVOO again?  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 13, 2017, 11:35:48 PM
GB,

Stellar as always! I see you used your of "heavy" hand on the EVOO again?  ;D
:-D  Yeah.  Even I think I overdid it this time.  It sure tastes good though.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 14, 2017, 08:08:05 AM
Way to go, GB!!!  Those 2 weekers can be good eatin'.  :chef:   

I think it was Peter who used a phrase "suspended animation" to describe dough that can just sit there and not do a whole lot of anything for a week. Sometimes I had it, sometimes I didn't. Still not sure how to ensure it, but have not tried in a while. I just turn them into bread loaves for the next day. Sometimes good, sometimes not. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 14, 2017, 05:02:08 PM
Way to go, GB!!!  Those 2 weekers can be good eatin'.  :chef:   

I think it was Peter who used a phrase "suspended animation" to describe dough that can just sit there and not do a whole lot of anything for a week. Sometimes I had it, sometimes I didn't. Still not sure how to ensure it, but have not tried in a while. I just turn them into bread loaves for the next day. Sometimes good, sometimes not.
It is kind of a puzzling phenomenon, isn't it?  It tasted great, but I think keeping dough for two weeks as a rule might be on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns.

On an unrelated note, I'm planning on picking up my own WPO500 now that I've seen what Mike's can do.  I've catered a few events, but the inability to get the heat I need from someone else's oven has always kept me cautious.  This oven looks portable and reliable enough to solve my problem.  I don't want to move too far beyond pizza in my offerings, but I suppose a bell and whistle or two is called for.  Anyone doing this right now?  I'd love to hear some war stories.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on July 14, 2017, 05:31:41 PM
I feel like pizza and garlic knots is as good as it gets. Maybe a good salad.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 14, 2017, 05:40:09 PM
Congrats on your pending purchase! Good luck with the enhanced catering thing.   :chef:   

The old dough bakes were to inconsistent for me. In the end, it was a way too sweet crust that did me in. Too much like throwing darts with blind-folds on.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 14, 2017, 05:54:19 PM
It is kind of a puzzling phenomenon, isn't it?  It tasted great, but I think keeping dough for two weeks as a rule might be on the wrong side of the law of diminishing returns.

On an unrelated note, I'm planning on picking up my own WPO500 now that I've seen what Mike's can do.  I've catered a few events, but the inability to get the heat I need from someone else's oven has always kept me cautious.  This oven looks portable and reliable enough to solve my problem.  I don't want to move too far beyond pizza in my offerings, but I suppose a bell and whistle or two is called for.  Anyone doing this right now?  I'd love to hear some war stories.

- GB

GB,

Congrats!

The oven will serve you well. But do keep in mind that this thing is heavy...and I mean heavy. You need two people to move it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 14, 2017, 08:34:31 PM
GB,

Congrats!

The oven will serve you well. But do keep in mind that this thing is heavy...and I mean heavy. You need two people to move it.
Thanks, Mike.  I've read weight estimates from 70 all the way to 115 pounds.  Do you have any idea where on that spectrum reality lies?  I'm pretty fit and can move 70 pounds around with enough ease, especially with a hand truck, but 115 might get out of hand since I live in a second-floor walk-up.  Is the removable deck responsible for a decent percentage of the weight?  Am I looking at the right oven for this?  I'm almost sure I won't find a smaller one for indoor use that can generate that kind of baking temperature.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 14, 2017, 08:53:50 PM
Thanks, Mike.  I've read weight estimates from 70 all the way to 115 pounds.  Do you have any idea where on that spectrum reality lies?  I'm pretty fit and can move 70 pounds around with enough ease, especially with a hand truck, but 115 might get out of hand since I live in a second-floor walk-up.  Is the removable deck responsible for a decent percentage of the weight?  Am I looking at the right oven for this?  I'm almost sure I won't find a smaller one for indoor use that can generate that kind of baking temperature.

The shipping weight on mine was 135lbs. The "stone" itself counts for maybe 10 lbs at the most. I also live on a 2nd floor apartment and FedEx brought it all the way up here to the front of my door. It is absolutely awesome for indoor use. I have the feeling you will never use your regular oven again when it comes to pizza.

This is the one I got:

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/waring-wpo500-single-deck-countertop-pizza-oven-120v/929WPO500.html

Here's the info from FedEx...

Service    FedEx Ground
Weight    133 lbs / 60.33 kgs
Terms    Shipper
Packaging    Package
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 14, 2017, 09:02:15 PM
The shipping weight on mine was 135lbs. The "stone" itself counts for maybe 10 lbs at the most. I also live on a 2nd floor apartment and FedEx brought it all the way up here to the front of my door. It is absolutely awesome for indoor use. I have the feeling you will never use your regular oven again when it comes to pizza.

This is the one I got:

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/waring-wpo500-single-deck-countertop-pizza-oven-120v/929WPO500.html

Here's the info from FedEx...

Service    FedEx Ground
Weight    133 lbs / 60.33 kgs
Terms    Shipper
Packaging    Package
Thanks, Mike.  My biggest worry is that I won't be able to easily bring it to and from events.  Do you think a good hand-truck with those triple wheels designed for stairs would do the trick?  Anyone got any clever notions as to how to make it as portable as possible?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 14, 2017, 09:41:39 PM
Thanks, Mike.  My biggest worry is that I won't be able to easily bring it to and from events.  Do you think a good hand-truck with those triple wheels designed for stairs would do the trick?  Anyone got any clever notions as to how to make it as portable as possible?

A solid hand truck would probably do the trick but don't take my word for it. Mine is stationary, sitting on a stainless steel table. Also, you have vents on both sides which would make loading it vertical on a dolly challenging without bending the vents. Maybe a soft, thick blanket underneath would do the trick.

I'll post a pic of the vents. Gimme a sec...
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on July 14, 2017, 09:43:46 PM
Look around for something like this.

https://m.alibaba.com/showroom/hydraulic-lift-dolly.html
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on July 14, 2017, 09:44:42 PM
Sides, front and back
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 14, 2017, 10:33:20 PM
A solid hand truck would probably do the trick but don't take my word for it. Mine is stationary, sitting on a stainless steel table. Also, you have vents on both sides which would make loading it vertical on a dolly challenging without bending the vents. Maybe a soft, thick blanket underneath would do the trick.

I'll post a pic of the vents. Gimme a sec...
Thanks, Mike.  The pics are actually very informative.

Hmm.  The more I think about it, the more complications I see using this oven for a mobile setup that can be moved, set up, used, broken down, and transported home.  I'd love to hear creative solutions or alternatives.

1)  Those hydraulic carts have a big enough platform lengthwise, but typically measure just under 18" deep before getting prohibitively expensive, and even then the stairs would still present a big obstacle.

2)  Let's say I can manage the lugging somehow.  After the bake, wouldn't there be hours of cool-down time involved before I could safely break down, pack up, and go home?  I suppose returning for a next-day breakdown could be part of the deal.

Are there any mobile chefs out there who've solved these issues?  Also, have I overlooked any other potential problems in this regard?
Look around for something like this.

https://m.alibaba.com/showroom/hydraulic-lift-dolly.html
This is a great idea.  I think the platform size wouldn't quite cut it though unless  I spend more on the cart than the oven.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norcoscia on July 15, 2017, 07:12:40 AM
You could get this one for $259 dollars and get 20% off that price with one of their coupons. Assuming a Harbor Freight Tools store somewhere near you....

PS. But not a good option for stairs.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 15, 2017, 08:48:16 AM
You could get this one for $259 dollars and get 20% off that price with one of their coupons. Assuming a Harbor Freight Tools store somewhere near you....

PS. But not a good option for stairs.


I've got a miter saw stand that works in a similar fashion to that stand, Norm. I was thinking along the lines of something like that for GB, but could not get around the how to secure the oven part. Especially with the feet of the oven and need for vent space on the bottom. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on July 15, 2017, 10:25:51 AM
There's also appliance moving straps if you have someone else to to help you. Surprisingly easy to use and able to lift a lot more than you'd expect without straining youself!!

http://www.problemsolvers.com/mobi/forearm-forklift-moving-harness-set-of-2.htm?aff=5512&CAWELAID=530007760000010442&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15134501881&CATCI=pla-18283950120&catargetid=530007760000012741&cadevice=m&gclid=CjwKCAjw-qbLBRB7EiwAftBCI_iw-mGNW4aNKcMVhyJxw_3DxAtrAZ17UKmUuTCrBUtF78rFcgEHaBoCkVYQAvD_BwE
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 17, 2017, 02:25:09 AM
There's also appliance moving straps if you have someone else to to help you. Surprisingly easy to use and able to lift a lot more than you'd expect without straining youself!!

http://www.problemsolvers.com/mobi/forearm-forklift-moving-harness-set-of-2.htm?aff=5512&CAWELAID=530007760000010442&CAGPSPN=pla&CAAGID=15134501881&CATCI=pla-18283950120&catargetid=530007760000012741&cadevice=m&gclid=CjwKCAjw-qbLBRB7EiwAftBCI_iw-mGNW4aNKcMVhyJxw_3DxAtrAZ17UKmUuTCrBUtF78rFcgEHaBoCkVYQAvD_BwE
I've got a miter saw stand that works in a similar fashion to that stand, Norm. I was thinking along the lines of something like that for GB, but could not get around the how to secure the oven part. Especially with the feet of the oven and need for vent space on the bottom. 
You could get this one for $259 dollars and get 20% off that price with one of their coupons. Assuming a Harbor Freight Tools store somewhere near you....

PS. But not a good option for stairs.

A solid hand truck would probably do the trick but don't take my word for it. Mine is stationary, sitting on a stainless steel table. Also, you have vents on both sides which would make loading it vertical on a dolly challenging without bending the vents. Maybe a soft, thick blanket underneath would do the trick.

I'll post a pic of the vents. Gimme a sec...
Thanks for all these great suggestions, guys.  I was feeling discouraged, but I really think that with a couple of good fire blankets, those shoulder straps, a dolly, and a helper, I can make this work.  I just made a 19-day dough tonight.  It was the last of the batch.  Still alive and well.  I think 19 days is like 102 in dough years.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 17, 2017, 06:45:44 AM
Nice, GB. I would have guessed half that age.

Did you happen to take an IR temp reading on the dough at any point in the past week or so?

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on July 20, 2017, 12:37:56 PM
I can't really put my finger on it, but your pies hit all the notes of what I'd like to be able to achieve.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 22, 2017, 09:09:15 PM
Nice, GB. I would have guessed half that age.

Did you happen to take an IR temp reading on the dough at any point in the past week or so?

Roy
No, Roy, I didn't.  That would've been a great idea.  I'll do it next time I get a sleeper.

I can't really put my finger on it, but your pies hit all the notes of what I'd like to be able to achieve.
Thanks, QD.  That means a lot because I've spent many years trying to hit those notes.  I suspect we were were both raised on the same type of pizza and are trying to recapture the same things.  This next part may sound dumb, but it's just a thought that has occurred to me.  We all have fond childhood memories of food, entertainment, etc, and sometimes we also have a vision of what those particular things would be like if they were elevated to their highest potential.  The example that I always think of outside of pizza is the Super Friends cartoons that I got up to watch every Saturday morning.  There was something about the concept that just fired my little imagination.  The thing is that when you go back and look at it now, the cartoons are still cool, but the animation's a little cheap, and the plots are paper thin.  Bruce Timm at Warner Brothers obviously grew up on those cartoons too and had a vision of what he had always wished they could be.  He made two seasons of Justice League.  Same concept, same characters, similar but richer drawing style; however this time the characters were fully fleshed,  the stories were very well written, and the animation was beautifully stylized.  That's how I think many of us feel about our pizza.  I can't speak for anyone but myself;  so I won't try, but in my case, I'm trying to capture that memory of the pizza from my youth and make it what I always wanted it to be.  Glad it works for you too.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 22, 2017, 09:51:16 PM
Well said, GB.

In the case of food, maybe a little touch hyper-realism won't hurt anyone.  ;D

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on July 22, 2017, 10:24:43 PM
gb, beautifully put, this is one of those times I'd  like a "love button" instead of a "like button".  I grew up eating ny style slice pizza, in my twenties, I moved to brooklyn and discovered "ny elite" style, which I came to prefer. Your pizza reminds of those pies.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on July 24, 2017, 08:29:00 AM
No, Roy, I didn't.  That would've been a great idea.  I'll do it next time I get a sleeper.
GB,
fwiw, I had my fridge up and run cold on me last week which left me with some under-developed dough. One In particular was just left in the coldest spot on my dough shelf. That spot never ranges much and is normally 34.5F-35F. I use it to slow the far too occasional renegade. The other three spots are normally in the 36-37.5F range.

Anyhow, I left one ball in that spot exclusively to get an idea of how long it will go and be usable. It was 33.3F this morning, which is the coldest it has been. It is 5-days old and holding it's shape well. By comparison, the next batch is 2 days old and are all slightly bigger. I'm gong to leave this one in place for another week to see what I get. Basically, it's to see if I can somehow steer a long term dough into that state of suspended animation and have it usable. 

Roy

(ps. Everything above on temps is IR measuring top center of dough right away when taking the lids off. )
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on July 26, 2017, 04:46:14 PM
GB,
fwiw, I had my fridge up and run cold on me last week which left me with some under-developed dough. One In particular was just left in the coldest spot on my dough shelf. That spot never ranges much and is normally 34.5F-35F. I use it to slow the far too occasional renegade. The other three spots are normally in the 36-37.5F range.

Anyhow, I left one ball in that spot exclusively to get an idea of how long it will go and be usable. It was 33.3F this morning, which is the coldest it has been. It is 5-days old and holding it's shape well. By comparison, the next batch is 2 days old and are all slightly bigger. I'm gong to leave this one in place for another week to see what I get. Basically, it's to see if I can somehow steer a long term dough into that state of suspended animation and have it usable. 

Roy

(ps. Everything above on temps is IR measuring top center of dough right away when taking the lids off. )
I'll refer back here when I get the opportunity to take that measurement.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: cjbrown24 on August 19, 2017, 11:19:56 PM
So this is my first attempt at making pizza so don't be too hard! I used the recipe from page 1 with a 3 day cold ferment. The first pizza came out a little bit crispy to say the least. I cooked it on a ceramic grill at 650 degrees. I had 2 stones, one above the coals for indirect heat and the pizza stone as high up in the dome as I could get it. They tasted great but the middle was really soupy. I may have stretched it too thin? Maybe the sauce was too runny? I don't know. Anyway here they are. A pepperoni and green chile and the 2nd pie was a sausage and ricotta.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 20, 2017, 07:53:33 AM
Great start!  They may have been a little soupy because your temperature was a bit high for that formulation so the bake was fast. A slighlty cooler slower bake would be less runny. Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: cjbrown24 on August 20, 2017, 12:38:40 PM
Just found out my new oven goes up to 550. Would that be about right? I have a 3/4 inch cordierite stone as well.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 20, 2017, 09:22:25 PM
Yup, you should be good.  some here who prefer stones...some steel; personal preference. I see great pizza in your near future :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 08, 2017, 12:13:21 AM
So this is my first attempt at making pizza so don't be too hard! I used the recipe from page 1 with a 3 day cold ferment. The first pizza came out a little bit crispy to say the least. I cooked it on a ceramic grill at 650 degrees. I had 2 stones, one above the coals for indirect heat and the pizza stone as high up in the dome as I could get it. They tasted great but the middle was really soupy. I may have stretched it too thin? Maybe the sauce was too runny? I don't know. Anyway here they are. A pepperoni and green chile and the 2nd pie was a sausage and ricotta.
Those pies look great.  A little playing with your oven, and you'll have exactly what you want.

This part is to everyone.  I posted earlier about how many of us are trying to capture a memory and make it what we always wanted it to be.  Here's what I consider an amazing example.  It's not pizza, but it's an example of both creating something that's faithful to a cherished memory AND taking that memory to new heights.  When I was a kid, there was a show on TV that I'm sure many of you remember called Jonny Quest.  It was a Hanna-Barbera cartoon that only lasted one season.  It took it's inspiration from both Tom Swift Jr. (look him up) and early James Bond.  It had a boy hero who traveled the world with his dad, a scientist, his dog, Bandit, his best buddy, Hadji, and his bodyguard, Race Bannon.  There were foreign villains of indeterminate origin who were always trying to steal Doctor Quest's inventions and kill them all too just for kicks.  The intro was a jazzy, James Bond-inspired number with cool action and sound effects.  An animator in, I think, Texas obviously feels the same way about the show that I do.  He faithfully recreated those opening credits using stop-motion animation and a pristine digital recording of the theme.  Here are both the original version and his hyper-reality memory.   He did for Jonny Quest what many of us aim to do for pizza.  Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0kg_tzQvf4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0kg_tzQvf4) - Original Version

https://vimeo.com/28278839 (https://vimeo.com/28278839) - New Version
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: holly821 on September 12, 2017, 11:31:58 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook has a chance to really develop the gluten.  A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it.  The dough was smooth and extensible.  A bulk room-temperature rise for a couple of hours.  The rise was good but not out of control.  Then I scaled and pulled the dough balls tight, oiled the containers and the doughs (I use the Gladware round containers) and put them in the fridge for a nice long nap.  No degassing like I used to with the Harvest King.  All trumps doesn't seem to forgive and recover from re-balling.  I was more generous with the olive oil (evoo) than usual because the All-Trumps dough has given me sticking issues.  This time, that was resolved.  I made the first batch of pizzas after a 4-and-a-half day rest and used up the last dough on day 8. (I made twelve doughs in all.)

Observations:  The dough handled beautifully.  Twelve hand-stretched pies and not one tear.  I even accidentally caught a stretched skin on the handle of the peel.  It just dimpled and rebounded.  I noticed that after day 6 I had to be more careful as the dough was getting a bit more delicate, but never did I hit the breaking point.  The trade off was worth it.  The older it got, the better the flavor, crumb and texture.  Best dough I've ever made.

The cheese was a mix of Belgioso fresh mozzarella (cryo log) and just a bit of Boar's head whole milk (just for kicks).  I also used some grated grana padano and pecorino romano before the Mozz went on.  The tomatoes were (I'm ashamed to admit the brand, but they were absolutely delicious) S&W crushed tomatoes in the giant can from Costco.  I strained them a bit to thicken them up, added some salt, fresh garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper, used an immersion blender to smooth the texture (just a bit) and they went on the pie like that.  Topped it all off with a pre-bake drizzle of Santini EVOO.  Fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

Don't scoff at the S&W's (I would have) till you've tried them.  They were sweet and mild.  Okay, I'm spent...  :P

-- GB


Hi,

Could you cut this in half and yield the same results?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 12, 2017, 01:34:20 PM

Hi,

Could you cut this in half and yield the same results?
I think yes, but if you're using a mixer like my KA, sometimes smaller batches don't mix and knead as easily.  If that's the case, you may have to do some hand kneading. Otherwise you should be fine.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: holly821 on September 13, 2017, 08:31:10 AM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

2) The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

Protocol-wise, I started with about half the flour and all the IDY in the Kitchen-Aid pro-500.  I added all the water and mixed with the spiral dough hook (and a little manual coaxing) until thoroughly combined.  Rest a couple of minutes.  Then I added about half the remaining flour and kept mixing (inspired by Varasano).   At this point it turns from batter to really wet dough and the hook has a chance to really develop the gluten.  A couple of minutes of this on settings 1 (and 2 for a bit) and I could see the webbing forming.  Added the salt and mixed a bit more.  Rested a couple of more minutes and added the remaining flour as I mixed for the final time.  Just a couple of minutes does it.  The dough was smooth and extensible.  A bulk room-temperature rise for a couple of hours.  The rise was good but not out of control.  Then I scaled and pulled the dough balls tight, oiled the containers and the doughs (I use the Gladware round containers) and put them in the fridge for a nice long nap.  No degassing like I used to with the Harvest King.  All trumps doesn't seem to forgive and recover from re-balling.  I was more generous with the olive oil (evoo) than usual because the All-Trumps dough has given me sticking issues.  This time, that was resolved.  I made the first batch of pizzas after a 4-and-a-half day rest and used up the last dough on day 8. (I made twelve doughs in all.)

Observations:  The dough handled beautifully.  Twelve hand-stretched pies and not one tear.  I even accidentally caught a stretched skin on the handle of the peel.  It just dimpled and rebounded.  I noticed that after day 6 I had to be more careful as the dough was getting a bit more delicate, but never did I hit the breaking point.  The trade off was worth it.  The older it got, the better the flavor, crumb and texture.  Best dough I've ever made.

The cheese was a mix of Belgioso fresh mozzarella (cryo log) and just a bit of Boar's head whole milk (just for kicks).  I also used some grated grana padano and pecorino romano before the Mozz went on.  The tomatoes were (I'm ashamed to admit the brand, but they were absolutely delicious) S&W crushed tomatoes in the giant can from Costco.  I strained them a bit to thicken them up, added some salt, fresh garlic and a bit of crushed red pepper, used an immersion blender to smooth the texture (just a bit) and they went on the pie like that.  Topped it all off with a pre-bake drizzle of Santini EVOO.  Fresh basil on the way out of the oven.

Don't scoff at the S&W's (I would have) till you've tried them.  They were sweet and mild.  Okay, I'm spent...  :P

-- GB

Hi, I made this recipe last night .... Halved it.  That was before I saw your response about needing to do some hand kneading.  The dough was sticky ...I could still handle it, but it was sticky.   Will it be less sticky after the cold ferment?  Or should I have kneaded it longer?   I hope my pizza looks like yours when I bake!   
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 13, 2017, 04:07:25 PM
Hi, I made this recipe last night .... Halved it.  That was before I saw your response about needing to do some hand kneading.  The dough was sticky ...I could still handle it, but it was sticky.   Will it be less sticky after the cold ferment?  Or should I have kneaded it longer?   I hope my pizza looks like yours when I bake!   
Those are all good questions, Holly.  The hand-kneading thing occurred to me because you cut the recipe in half.  It's really a total maybe, depending on how the stand mixer handles the smaller batch; so I wouldn't worry too much.  As far as stickiness goes, I find that if the dough is a bit sticky and annoying to handle, I get a better end result with an airier rim.  However sticky is a subjective term.  You certainly don't want to be working with paste.  That issue can vary depending on the flour you're using.  Some take quite a bit more water than others.  Once you ball the dough, oil it well -- don't be stingy! -- and put it away.  Remove it from the container by turning the container over completely and letting it fall into your free hand, which should have a thin coat of flour.  Then immediately drop it into your bench flour and get the surface covered before you start stretching.  Once you start stretching, don't keep flouring.  That's when you get the caking.  If you flour well before you stretch, the stretching will distribute the coating evenly, and it should be enough to keep the dough not sticky.  Make sure your peel has a thin layer of bench flour and a nice dusting of semolina too.  That'll keep the pizza from sticking on launch into the oven.  Please let me know what happens.  I'd love to see some pics!

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: holly821 on September 13, 2017, 04:20:58 PM
I'll let you know, and show some pictures on Friday or Saturday!!   Thank you for the tips.  Pictures to follow!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on September 13, 2017, 08:28:52 PM
I think we have our levain and sauce done now I need to work on our thickness.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: holly821 on September 14, 2017, 10:05:59 AM
Margherita with an All-Trumps crust.  The dough was refrigerated for 8 days.  Tasted great.

What did you cook on - a pizza stone?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 15, 2017, 09:07:57 PM
Always on a stone.  Actually I use 1/2-inch-thick quarry tiles because they create more deck space, but it's the same effect.  Pre-heat the stone for as long as possible and set the temperature as high as you can get it.  I removed the heat sensor from my oven to create an inferno.  You'll have to find the rack position that works best in your oven too.  Unfortunately, that's trial and error.  Good luck!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on September 16, 2017, 08:57:56 AM
not so beautiful pizzas but they taste great
30% levain (my own culture)
72 hr cold rise, 4 hour warm rise
67% hydration
KA bread flour
575° in a gas oven
18x18 floor tile (1" cordierite slab is in the mail) One tile is above the pizza and one tile the pizza is baked on. Broiler not used.
Pepperoni: 7/11 with a very small about of sugar and salt, Sorento mozzarella
White: Ricotta, Sorento mozzarella, black pepper, chopped garlic

Need to improve my launch so the pizzas don't get so messy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on September 21, 2017, 11:15:49 AM
This is one of the first recipes I tried and many years later my pizza making preferences have led me back to this thread!

I'm fermenting in balls for 5 to 7 days to get the desired appearance (blisters, that spiderweb or cotton candy like inner crumb) but my dough balls are becoming very slack by this point. I, too, am using a comparatively small amount of yeast.

Do you have any suggestions to getting a less slack dough ball by this point? Maybe I can increase my bulk ferment? Use a portion as a preferment? Or what about speeding up the process (i.e., getting blisters in 3 rather than 5 days.)

We know cold temperatures lead to gluten degradation which may be why there are blisters and the thin strands of gluten in the crumb, but how are you achieving that without a ball that falls apart when you stretch it?!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on September 21, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
This is one of the first recipes I tried and many years later my pizza making preferences have led me back to this thread!

I'm fermenting in balls for 5 to 7 days to get the desired appearance (blisters, that spiderweb or cotton candy like inner crumb) but my dough balls are becoming very slack by this point. I, too, am using a comparatively small amount of yeast.

Do you have any suggestions to getting a less slack dough ball by this point? Maybe I can increase my bulk ferment? Use a portion as a preferment? Or what about speeding up the process (i.e., getting blisters in 3 rather than 5 days.)

We know cold temperatures lead to gluten degradation which may be why there are blisters and the thin strands of gluten in the crumb, but how are you achieving that without a ball that falls apart when you stretch it?!

Same thing happened to me, some of my first real successes came from the formula and methodology in this thread.
I'm back to a sugar and oil free "lean dough," the only difference is my hydration is lower than most here (55%) to put me more in street slice territory. I've also been on a same day kick in lieu of extended cold fermentation. I like the flavor of long CF dough, but the gluten degradation tends to rob that signature NY chew which I really like, as I prefer a thinner slice, and without that chew a thin slice can disappear in two bites.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 21, 2017, 02:46:50 PM
This is one of the first recipes I tried and many years later my pizza making preferences have led me back to this thread!

I'm fermenting in balls for 5 to 7 days to get the desired appearance (blisters, that spiderweb or cotton candy like inner crumb) but my dough balls are becoming very slack by this point. I, too, am using a comparatively small amount of yeast.

Do you have any suggestions to getting a less slack dough ball by this point? Maybe I can increase my bulk ferment? Use a portion as a preferment? Or what about speeding up the process (i.e., getting blisters in 3 rather than 5 days.)

We know cold temperatures lead to gluten degradation which may be why there are blisters and the thin strands of gluten in the crumb, but how are you achieving that without a ball that falls apart when you stretch it?!
It's a good question, and, yes, by the time you get to that 5-7-day mark, the dough is full of flavor and character but also more finicky.  I know you're a fan of the LDMP.   Did you incorporate any here?  I know that accelerates the maturation process.  I've been known, depending on the flour I'm using and the amount of dough I'm making, to throw in a teaspoon or two of vital wheat gluten.  It definitely gives you an elasticity buffer.  All in all, yes, it's a trade-off to some extent.  72 hours will still get you some great character without much if any deterioration if you want to go in that direction.  When it gets slack, go to a delicate stretching technique.  I sometimes stretch from the rim and let the weight of the dough do the stretching.  That way you can detect thinning spots early and avoid stressing them.  The NY over-the-hands pull becomes asking for trouble at some point though.  Hope at least something I said was helpful.

- GB  :chef: 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: hotsawce on September 21, 2017, 03:24:42 PM
I did not use any LDMP - just flour, water, salt, ADY.  Vital wheat gluten is something I hadn't considered but an interesting thought. I do wonder if that crumb/those blisters are a result of the extreme gluten degradation, and that they simply might not occur without the trade off of a slack dough.

That being said, I prefermented a large portion of flour a while ago and got desirable crust characteristics and a dough that wasn't too finicky, so I might go that route again.

To me, this is like the pizza version of a San Francisco sourdough....with the huge blisters and crazy crumb. It's no surprise both are achieved by long, cold fermentations (the cold helping to increase gluten degradation and dissolve CO2 from the yeast throughout the dough.)

I'm thinking an overnight preferment in conjunction with a 2 to 4 hour bulk may help build enough strength in the dough. That being said, if the blisters are a result of CO2 dissolving in the dough, maybe an increase in yeast amount would help? More air in the dough to create blisters before the gluten degrades too much?

Who knows. In any event, very interesting I've come full circle to this thread again. Still one of the best on the forum for a NY type pie.

It's a good question, and, yes, by the time you get to that 5-7-day mark, the dough is full of flavor and character but also more finicky.  I know you're a fan of the LDMP.   Did you incorporate any here?  I know that accelerates the maturation process.  I've been known, depending on the flour I'm using and the amount of dough I'm making, to throw in a teaspoon or two of vital wheat gluten.  It definitely gives you an elasticity buffer.  All in all, yes, it's a trade-off to some extent.  72 hours will still get you some great character without much if any deterioration if you want to go in that direction.  When it gets slack, go to a delicate stretching technique.  I sometimes stretch from the rim and let the weight of the dough do the stretching.  That way you can detect thinning spots early and avoid stressing them.  The NY over-the-hands pull becomes asking for trouble at some point though.  Hope at least something I said was helpful.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on September 21, 2017, 06:25:32 PM
Lou, I also usually go pretty long on my dough though I use a poolish and most often a bulk and don't ball until about 24 hours before bake..I still have some issues with thin spots because of the long run but I think the bulk helps minimize that. My experience with LDM in a long fermentation was that it makes the dough too soft...no positive I could find. But yesterday's same day dough benefitted greatly from it. Sometimes it's a mystery. I used a six day All Trumps dough last week. One ball had thin spots and developed a tear...patch able. ..and the other was absolutely strong and easy to open. No clue why






Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on November 13, 2017, 08:29:01 PM
whence glutenboy?
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 28, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
whence glutenboy?
Whence me?  Sorry for the absence.  I think Hotsawce is right.  Blistering always seems to happen in my more aged doughs, maybe around day 4 or 5 on.  That's also when the dough starts getting a bit more delicate; so there you have it.  It's a trade-off.

Now I have a question for anyone.  I just made a batch of GB dough with Harvest King.  Back when it was "Better for Bread," the flour included ascorbic acid.  Since then it's gone through two rebrandings, and ascorbic acid is no longer on the ingredients list.  I seemed to recall that my doughs with the old flour were smoother and opened more nicely; so in the name of discovery, I just added some pure ascorbic acid to last night's dough.  I did some hunting on the forum, and the only number I could find that I felt comfortable with was .25% by weight.  I added it during mixing after about 2/3 of the flour was already incorporated.  The dough took longer than usual to counter rise, but it is cold outside.  I finally put it in the unlit oven so it would have a warm spot to rise (there's a pilot that makes it just warm in there).  It eventually came to life, but the rise was slow, and the usual yeasty beer smell was unusually mild.  I balled, oiled, and refrigerated as usual.  I can see it's alive, but the underside bubbles are smaller and finer than usual.  Did I commit yeast-a-cide with too much ascorbic acid?  Can anyone who's tried this tell me what effects to expect?  I was hoping it might improve texture and extend shelf life of the dough.

Any input welcome

- GB  :chef:

EDIT:  By the way, I just looked back and saw that what I said about blistering was totally repeating myself.   
I did not use any LDMP - just flour, water, salt, ADY.  Vital wheat gluten is something I hadn't considered but an interesting thought. I do wonder if that crumb/those blisters are a result of the extreme gluten degradation, and that they simply might not occur without the trade off of a slack dough.

That being said, I prefermented a large portion of flour a while ago and got desirable crust characteristics and a dough that wasn't too finicky, so I might go that route again.

To me, this is like the pizza version of a San Francisco sourdough....with the huge blisters and crazy crumb. It's no surprise both are achieved by long, cold fermentations (the cold helping to increase gluten degradation and dissolve CO2 from the yeast throughout the dough.)

I'm thinking an overnight preferment in conjunction with a 2 to 4 hour bulk may help build enough strength in the dough. That being said, if the blisters are a result of CO2 dissolving in the dough, maybe an increase in yeast amount would help? More air in the dough to create blisters before the gluten degrades too much?

Who knows. In any event, very interesting I've come full circle to this thread again. Still one of the best on the forum for a NY type pie.

EDIT 2:  Here's an additional thought:  You asked whether additional yeast might make more CO2 and hence more blisters.  I say probably not.  I think extra yeast will make the dough rise faster, and it'll probably be a little harder to control in the fridge.  When I used to use more yeast in my early cold-ferment days, I'd frequently wind up with one of those giant bubbles under the skin.  I also used to reball (I called it degas) the dough midway through fermentation.  I definitely don't recall the increased yeast giving me more or earlier microblisters, which I think is what you are after.
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 29, 2017, 04:31:45 AM
Well, I got my answer the hard way. I’ve discovered the formula for swiss-cheese pizza dough.  It felt pretty good as I began to stretch.  Then came the holes. I eventually managed to pinch my dinner together, but it was amateur night in the GB house. I’ve been doing some further research, and it seems I used around 100-1000 times the customary amount of ascorbic acid.  So ends a cautionary tale.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on November 29, 2017, 07:43:48 AM
This is one of the first recipes I tried and many years later my pizza making preferences have led me back to this thread!

I'm fermenting in balls for 5 to 7 days to get the desired appearance (blisters, that spiderweb or cotton candy like inner crumb) but my dough balls are becoming very slack by this point. I, too, am using a comparatively small amount of yeast.

Do you have any suggestions to getting a less slack dough ball by this point? Maybe I can increase my bulk ferment? Use a portion as a preferment? Or what about speeding up the process (i.e., getting blisters in 3 rather than 5 days.)

We know cold temperatures lead to gluten degradation which may be why there are blisters and the thin strands of gluten in the crumb, but how are you achieving that without a ball that falls apart when you stretch it?!

 Blisters, I'm far from a scientist but I'll give my take on it. I think they come when you nail the fermentation on head, also certain flours blister a lot, while others very little if at all.

Gold medal bread flour hardly ever blisters for me.
King Arthur's Bread Flour blisters A LOT.

Regarding your later comment I don't think additional yeast will give you additional blistering. I for one use very little yeast .040% or .24g for 600g of flour, and somehow achieve blistering every single bake which strikes me as magical each and every time. My dough is fermented for 24 hours, and reballed 12 hours into into fermentation/12 hours before bake.

I think another key factor is raising the fermentation temperature, it just does SOMETHING different that allows for great flavor in short time and gives the dough those blisters.

My temperature is at 65*f, controlled by a wine cooler.

I think it does SOMETHING different because Lager beers ferment down to the mid 40"s, while Ale's ferment from 60's to 70's and as we all know they produce vastly different products which taste  a lot different.

So in summary, higher fermentation temps, less yeast, the right flour, and the perfect ferment will give you additional blistering.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on November 29, 2017, 09:56:17 AM
GB, I see ascorbic listed twice in the Honeyville Dough Conditioner product. Once as part of the bulk ingredient (flour) and once by itself. I have no idea about the actual percentages. If I guess high and do the math with suggested usage amounts, I come out close to the same amount of ascorbic acid as what you used. If I guess reasonably low, I come out to about 10% of what you used. (it was something like .025%)

That's all conjecture. Still, if this is one of those ingredients that's commonly discussed in parts per million(PPM) terms, it could very well be a seriously small amount. And that's before adding the 4+ days' CF factor to the equation.

The other wrench in those spokes is the slowed yeast effects during the bio-chemical gluten construction phase. The thought is, if I build less gluten and then condition the gluten more afterwards, I should have weak dough.

Just some thoughts. I look forward to seeing where you end up with this stuff.  8) 8)

Roy
 
(ps - I don't use the Honeyville Dough Conditioner for NY efforts, btw.) 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 29, 2017, 01:38:55 PM
GB, I see ascorbic listed twice in the Honeyville Dough Conditioner product. Once as part of the bulk ingredient (flour) and once by itself. I have no idea about the actual percentages. If I guess high and do the math with suggested usage amounts, I come out close to the same amount of ascorbic acid as what you used. If I guess reasonably low, I come out to about 10% of what you used. (it was something like .025%)

That's all conjecture. Still, if this is one of those ingredients that's commonly discussed in parts per million(PPM) terms, it could very well be a seriously small amount. And that's before adding the 4+ days' CF factor to the equation.

The other wrench in those spokes is the slowed yeast effects during the bio-chemical gluten construction phase. The thought is, if I build less gluten and then condition the gluten more afterwards, I should have weak dough.

Just some thoughts. I look forward to seeing where you end up with this stuff.  8) 8)

Roy
 
(ps - I don't use the Honeyville Dough Conditioner for NY efforts, btw.)

Thanks for the info, Roy.  I do believe I OD'd my dough on vitamin C.  If we're talking parts per million, then 25 PPM would be .0025 percent, I think.  I used 100 times that amount.  I can only take comfort in the fact that, despite its extended stay in the cooler, the dough is far less likely to catch a cold.

I think it's time to toss the remaining 5 dough balls and make another batch.  I may try one as a small loaf of bread tonight to see what happens.  I'm trying to get out of my rut and try some new approaches; so some screw-ups are inevitable!

Another ingredient I tried for the first time yesterday was a pinch of citric acid added to the tomatoes.  I've always relied heavily on salt to bring the tomatoes to life; so I thought acid would give me another prong in that attack.  I've always shied away from using lemon or vinegar because I felt they'd change the character of the tomato flavor; so to me citric acid seemed like a more precise way to add tartness without changing basic flavor.  The result?  It did exactly what it was supposed to do, but I'm not sure I liked it as much as I thought I would.  The tomatoes were Sclafani crushed, and they were very good to begin with.  Maybe they just didn't need it.  I can, however, see using citric acid in a pinch if the tomatoes on hand are lackluster and there are no others immediately available.  I added a pinch or two of sugar to balance out the new tartness.  The combo certainly upped the intensity, but, in this case, I think it was at the cost of freshness and balance.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2017, 05:18:04 PM
GB,

Some time ago, when I was making clones of the Papa John's dough, which contains ascorbic acid, I took a stab at using ascorbic acid. Since I understood that PJ was using a high protein flour, which was later confirmed by PJ itself, I researched the flours that General Mills offered that contained ascorbic acid. There were only a handful of GM flours at the time that used ascorbic acid. That is still true today, as you can see if you dig into the flours listed at https://www.generalmillscf.com/SearchResults?term=ascorbic%20adid&termDataSource=d6fb75f5-d19a-49cd-9ba0-c10a6e45afb2. As can be seen from this link, Harvest King is not among those flours that use ascorbic acid. But at one time the Harvest King flour did contain ascorbic acid. What I found from my research, which I confirmed again today, was that the higher protein ascorbic acid GM flours contain 45-55 parts per million. If a lower protein flour is used, the amount of ascorbic acid used is 20-30 ppm.

For my PJ clones, I used the 45-55 ppm number and using a converter I found somewhere on the Internet I ended up using between a "smidgen" and a "pinch" (see photo below). I wish I could tell you that my use of ascorbic acid was a huge success but I could not tell a difference between a PJ clone dough made with ascorbic acid and one without it. Maybe I should have done more experiments with more ascorbic acid but I apparently moved on to more interesting experiments.

FYI, along the way I learned that both Domino's and Pizza Hut used ascorbic acid in some of their flours, at least at the time that I researched the matter.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2017, 06:47:01 PM
GB,

I tried some experiments with Peter's help on adding ascorbic acid with the Caputo 00 Americana flour to make it perform more like the Full Strength flour I normally use and LDM.  You can see Peter's Reply at 2417 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg427190#msg427190

This is the amount of ascorbic acid and LDM Peter told me to try at Reply 2366 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg425496#msg425496  That worked out very good.

You might be interested in what Chris Dengler said at Reply 2431 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg427708#msg427708

Norma
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 29, 2017, 10:22:44 PM
GB,

Some time ago, when I was making clones of the Papa John's dough, which contains ascorbic acid, I took a stab at using ascorbic acid. Since I understood that PJ was using a high protein flour, which was later confirmed by PJ itself, I researched the flours that General Mills offered that contained ascorbic acid. There were only a handful of GM flours at the time that used ascorbic acid. That is still true today, as you can see if you dig into the flours listed at https://www.generalmillscf.com/SearchResults?term=ascorbic%20adid&termDataSource=d6fb75f5-d19a-49cd-9ba0-c10a6e45afb2. As can be seen from this link, Harvest King is not among those flours that use ascorbic acid. But at one time the Harvest King flour did contain ascorbic acid. What I found from my research, which I confirmed again today, was that the higher protein ascorbic acid GM flours contain 45-55 parts per million. If a lower protein flour is used, the amount of ascorbic acid used is 20-30 ppm.

For my PJ clones, I used the 45-55 ppm number and using a converter I found somewhere on the Internet I ended up using between a "smidgen" and a "pinch" (see photo below). I wish I could tell you that my use of ascorbic acid was a huge success but I could not tell a difference between a PJ clone dough made with ascorbic acid and one without it. Maybe I should have done more experiments with more ascorbic acid but I apparently moved on to more interesting experiments.

FYI, along the way I learned that both Domino's and Pizza Hut used ascorbic acid in some of their flours, at least at the time that I researched the matter.

Peter

Those spoons are great, Peter.   :-D  A gram of ascorbic acid is 1/4 tsp.  I have a set that goes down to 1/8; so I'm going to use less than half of that next time.  this time I had 1140 grams of flour and added 5/8 tsp (2.5 g) of AA.  This gives me .22 percent according to my calculations.  I'd like to cut that by a factor of 5-10 in order to get into the correct range.  I'm gonna start small and try to cut it to 1/10 of last time's attempt.

I'll keep you posted!

GB,

I tried some experiments with Peter's help on adding ascorbic acid with the Caputo 00 Americana flour to make it perform more like the Full Strength flour I normally use and LDM.  You can see Peter's Reply at 2417 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg427190#msg427190

This is the amount of ascorbic acid and LDM Peter told me to try at Reply 2366 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg425496#msg425496  That worked out very good.

You might be interested in what Chris Dengler said at Reply 2431 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg427708#msg427708

Norma


Thanks for the links, Norma.  I'm not sure whether this little experiment will get me anywhere, but we will see!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on November 30, 2017, 10:54:39 AM
Thanks for the info, Roy.  I do believe I OD'd my dough on vitamin C.  If we're talking parts per million, then 25 PPM would be .0025 percent, I think.  I used 100 times that amount.  I can only take comfort in the fact that, despite its extended stay in the cooler, the dough is far less likely to catch a cold.

I think it's time to toss the remaining 5 dough balls and make another batch.  I may try one as a small loaf of bread tonight to see what happens.  I'm trying to get out of my rut and try some new approaches; so some screw-ups are inevitable!

Another ingredient I tried for the first time yesterday was a pinch of citric acid added to the tomatoes.  I've always relied heavily on salt to bring the tomatoes to life; so I thought acid would give me another prong in that attack.  I've always shied away from using lemon or vinegar because I felt they'd change the character of the tomato flavor; so to me citric acid seemed like a more precise way to add tartness without changing basic flavor.  The result?  It did exactly what it was supposed to do, but I'm not sure I liked it as much as I thought I would.  The tomatoes were Sclafani crushed, and they were very good to begin with.  Maybe they just didn't need it.  I can, however, see using citric acid in a pinch if the tomatoes on hand are lackluster and there are no others immediately available.  I added a pinch or two of sugar to balance out the new tartness.  The combo certainly upped the intensity, but, in this case, I think it was at the cost of freshness and balance.
The OD'd on vitamin C comment sounds like a Blues song in the making.  ;D

I tried the Citric Acid thing earlier this year. I stopped as soon as I got some 7/11's. Definite no need. I ad a batch of Mutt's that were weak and it helped a good bit. I don't imagine Sclafani's would need any. I used some that were frozen for months the other day and were just fine.

I'm looking forward to reading how your next round of dough/bakes goes.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 01:18:31 PM
Went to Smart and Final last night for more flour.  I remembered that Essen1 had mentioned that their First Street Bread flour was made by General Mills.  It was about $7 for a 25-lb. bag; so I grabbed one.  I decided to go to the GM website and see if I could put my finger on which flour they were rebranding for Smart and Final.  I do believe that First Street bread flour is GM bleached, unbromated Superlative in a different bag.  Here's a pic with both bags and labels.  First Street is on top, and GM Superlative is on the bottom.  Am I missing anything?

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2017, 01:35:06 PM
Went to Smart and Final last night for more flour.  I remembered that Essen1 had mentioned that their First Street Bread flour was made by General Mills.  It was about $7 for a 25-lb. bag; so I grabbed one.  I decided to go to the GM website and see if I could put my finger on which flour they were rebranding for Smart and Final.  I do believe that First Street bread flour is GM bleached, unbromated Superlative in a different bag.  Here's a pic with both bags and labels.  First Street is on top, and GM Superlative is on the bottom.  Am I missing anything?

- GB  :chef:

I don't think it's that simple. The fact that the retail product doesn't list the 2% phosphorous tells me that they probably aren't the same flour. In any case, I don't think you can tell from the nutritional statements and ingredient lists.  For example, Superlative and Sureloaf have identical nutritionals and ingredients yet Superlative is spring wheat and Sureloaf is winter wheat. 

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/superlative-bleached-enriched-malted-25lb
https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/sureloaf-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50lb

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the private brand retail product doesn't have a branded equivalent and may even be run of the mill meaning that as long as it meets the nutritional and ingredient statements and some basic performance requirements, it can go in the bag. Keep in mind that 4g protein can mean anything from 3.51g to 4.49g
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 01:48:04 PM
I don't think it's that simple. The fact that the retail product doesn't list the 2% phosphorous tells me that they probably aren't the same flour. In any case, I don't think you can tell from the nutritional statements and ingredient lists.  For example, Superlative and Sureloaf have identical nutritionals and ingredients yet Superlative is spring wheat and Sureloaf is winter wheat. 

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/superlative-bleached-enriched-malted-25lb
https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/sureloaf-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50lb

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the private brand retail product doesn't have a branded equivalent and may even be run of the mill meaning that as long as it meets the nutritional and ingredient statements and some basic performance requirements, it can go in the bag. Keep in mind that 4g protein can mean anything from 3.51g to 4.49g

Oh well.  At least I learned something about the origin of “run of the mill.”
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2017, 01:52:16 PM
I've been trying lots of unmalted retail AP flour lately, and I've been getting inconsistent results bag-to-bag on the private label product.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on November 30, 2017, 02:28:26 PM
GB,

You might want to look at this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6207.msg452394#msg452394
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on November 30, 2017, 02:31:18 PM
https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/supreme-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50lb
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2017, 02:58:01 PM
https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/supreme-bleached-ascorbic-acid-enriched-malted-50lb

That's higher protein than most bread flours - 13.6%
https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=58353000
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2017, 02:59:20 PM
GB,

You might want to look at this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6207.msg452394#msg452394

I'm pretty sure that Better for Bread and Harvest King are different flours now.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 04:54:25 PM
Thanks, Mike and Craig, for all the input.  Next step is to make some dough and see what happens.  Since there's already acorbic acid in there, I'll abandon that experiment for the moment in favor of experimenting with the new flour.

Craig, that's an interesting observation about GM bread flour vs. Harvest King.  They were the same at one point to my knowledge.  When do you think they diverged?  Which one was changed, or was it both?  What do you think the modifications are?  Why?  If two trains leave New York at the same time, which one should I take?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2017, 07:30:08 PM
Craig, that's an interesting observation about GM bread flour vs. Harvest King.  They were the same at one point to my knowledge.  When do you think they diverged?  Which one was changed, or was it both?  What do you think the modifications are?  Why?  If two trains leave New York at the same time, which one should I take?

I believe that is correct that they were the same not that long ago, however I think I remember reading sometime after the flour recall in 2016 that they changed the retail bread flour to a blend of spring and winter wheat. I just looked at the nutritionals, and they are a bit different. The bread flour has more niacin. I don't know why they changed it. I would guess to lower the production cost.

Take the right train.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 08:23:09 PM
I believe that is correct that they were the same not that long ago, however I think I remember reading sometime after the flour recall in 2016 that they changed the retail bread flour to a blend of spring and winter wheat. I just looked at the nutritionals, and they are a bit different. The bread flour has more niacin. I don't know why they changed it. I would guess to lower the production cost.

Take the right train.

Thanks for all the info, Craig.  I've noticed a differences in my GM bread flour doughs in recent times (not positive), and have struggled to figure out why.  These changes could be it.

Your train answer manages to be both absolutely correct and completely unhelpful.  I respect that.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 30, 2017, 08:44:14 PM
Take the train facing to the left..it'll get you home faster :-D  ( But don't get on it until having the pizza at Razza, LOL)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 09:26:28 PM
Take the train facing to the left..it'll get you home faster :-D  ( But don't get on it until having the pizza at Razza, LOL)

Now THAT'S good advice, JPB.  That pizza looks absolutely amazing!   :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on November 30, 2017, 09:43:54 PM
Just finished mixing a dough using the First Street bread flour.  My regular formula and routine.  I chose to try 65 percent hydration as a baseline, and it felt very nice; so no adjustments.  We'll see how it works out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 01, 2017, 09:15:23 PM
Update for anyone interested in trying the First Street bread flour:  The dough was silky smooth and windowpaned more nicely than I've seen in a long time.  The rise was sluggish again, which leads me to believe my yeast might be losing its zing, but with a little extra counter time, it more than doubled.  When I made the doughballs, it felt nice, but it was a bit sticky.  I would probably drop the hydration to 64 or even 63 next time and see what it does.  Wet dough makes a nice airy rim though; so I've got a good feeling about this batch.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 03, 2017, 11:52:22 PM
My impatience got the better of me, and I decided to make two pies after a 48-hour CF.  Pretty young dough by GB standards.  My conclusion is that my reluctance to move away from familiar ingredients is a weakness.  Craig was right about the GM Bread Flour.  It's not what it used to be.  I haven't been happy with my pizzas for a couple of years now.  They haven't been bad, I just remember them being better, and it turns out I was right.  The First Street Bread Flour is a winner.  The dough opened beautifully, strong and extensible without a thin spot or tear in sight.  The flavor at two days was already fantastic.  Lots of depth.  The color was great.  Nice browning with just the right amount of spotting on the underside.  It was thin (14+ inches with a 310-gram dough ball) but there was no tip sag on the fold.  Light, crisp, and chewy with an airy rim.  The first pizza out of the oven was something I swore never to do.  A white pie with bacon and... pineapple.  :'(  It crushed my soul, but my lady demanded it.  Of course, despite the degradation, I had to try a piece.  The fact that I liked it made my shame complete.  It was as good as a pineapple pizza could be.

There was only one thing to do to purify myself.  The second pizza, which was my dinner, was a GB Sausage & Mushroom special with Sclafani tomatoes, reggiano, pecorino, fresh mutz, EVOO, and fresh basil out of the oven.  My sins were forgiven.

I don't think I've ever shared it before, but how do you like my apron?  It was a gift from an appreciative guest.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on December 04, 2017, 12:03:48 AM
My impatience got the better of me, and I decided to make two pies after a 48-hour CF.  Pretty young dough by GB standards.  My conclusion is that my reluctance to move away from familiar ingredients is a weakness.  Craig was right about the GM Bread Flour.  It's not what it used to be.  I haven't been happy with my pizzas for a couple of years now.  They haven't been bad, I just remember them being better, and it turns out I was right.  The First Street Bread Flour is a winner.  The dough opened beautifully, strong and extensible without a thin spot or tear in sight.  The flavor at two days was already fantastic.  Lots of depth.  The color was great.  Nice browning with just the right amount of spotting on the underside.  It was thin (14+ inches with a 310-gram dough ball) but there was no tip sag on the fold.  Light, crisp, and chewy with an airy rim.  The first pizza out of the oven was something I swore never to do.  A white pie with bacon and... pineapple.  :'(  It crushed my soul, but my lady demanded it.  Of course, despite the degradation, I had to try a piece.  The fact that I liked it made my shame complete.  It was as good as a pineapple pizza could be.

There was only one thing to do to purify myself.  The second pizza, which was my dinner, was a GB Sausage & Mushroom special with Sclafani tomatoes, reggiano, pecorino, fresh mutz, EVOO, and fresh basil out of the oven.  My sins were forgiven.

I don't think I've ever shared it before, but how do you like my apron?  It was a gift from an appreciative guest.

From now on you'll just be known as "The Pimp" on here, buddy!  ;D

Awesome looking pies! TG gave me a tip some time ago...roast the pineapple and put some char marks on it. Takes away that feeling of guilt somewhat.  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 04, 2017, 12:10:08 AM
From now on you'll just be known as "The Pimp" on here, buddy!  ;D

Awesome looking pies! TG gave me a tip some time ago...roast the pineapple and put some char marks on it. Takes away that feeling of guilt somewhat.  :-D

If there's a next time, and I have a terrible feeling there will be, I definitely will!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on December 04, 2017, 07:45:36 AM
That's nice, GB.

Your dough goes through a lot before the fridge. It should be able to develop nice flavor in 48-hours. I don't think I ever tried it back in the beginning when I was using your system. I should have and could have. I know they were relaxing by then.  8)

I was thinking about the slow yeast thing. It could be as simple as time of year? I go down a few degrees and find the early yeast activity to be much more controllable.

Roy
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 05, 2017, 03:41:31 AM
That's nice, GB.

Your dough goes through a lot before the fridge. It should be able to develop nice flavor in 48-hours. I don't think I ever tried it back in the beginning when I was using your system. I should have and could have. I know they were relaxing by then. 

I was thinking about the slow yeast thing. It could be as simple as time of year? I go down a few degrees and find the early yeast activity to be much more controllable.

Roy

Maybe it is the cool weather, Roy.  I'm in Los Angeles; so it only gets so cold.  Either way, no harm done.

The First Street dough is four days old tonight, and for it's birthday, I cooked and ate it.  I gave the oven a good, long preheat so as to get good color on this one.  It was among the best pizzas I've made.  It seems to have matured faster than my GM doughs.  There was really great depth of flavor.  The color was nice, with just the amount of char I like on the bottom.  I've been trying to use a slightly lighter hand on the toppings.  The Sclafanis went on first, then freshly grated Locatelli Romano and Parmesan Reggiano, dry fresh mozzarella and a bit of LMWM mozzarella, the sausage and mushroom, and finally a light-handed drizzle of evoo.  Basil on the way out of the oven.  Everything was in proportion.  I won't say I can't do better because I'm sure many here have.  I will say that it was what I've always wanted my pizza to be.  I could taste each element.  They were well balanced, and the flavors and textures blended beautifully.  Third person:  GB is happy tonight!  Here are some pics.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 05, 2017, 06:41:26 AM
Great looking pie, GB!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on December 05, 2017, 06:41:53 AM
Man, that sure is a beauty!!! I'm beginning to crave now.  8) 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: norcoscia on December 05, 2017, 08:00:40 AM
Great looking pie, GB!
^^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on December 05, 2017, 11:16:21 AM
Maybe it is the cool weather, Roy.  I'm in Los Angeles; so it only gets so cold.  Either way, no harm done.

The First Street dough is four days old tonight, and for it's birthday, I cooked and ate it.  I gave the oven a good, long preheat so as to get good color on this one.  It was among the best pizzas I've made.  It seems to have matured faster than my GM doughs.  There was really great depth of flavor.  The color was nice, with just the amount of char I like on the bottom.  I've been trying to use a slightly lighter hand on the toppings.  The Sclafanis went on first, then freshly grated Locatelli Romano and Parmesan Reggiano, dry fresh mozzarella and a bit of LMWM mozzarella, the sausage and mushroom, and finally a light-handed drizzle of evoo.  Basil on the way out of the oven.  Everything was in proportion.  I won't say I can't do better because I'm sure someone has.  I will say that it was what I've always wanted my pizza to be.  I could taste each element.  They were well balanced, and the flavors and textures blended beautifully.  Third person:  GB is happy tonight!  Here are some pics.

Most excellent! You really hit it out of the ballpark! What a great looking pie!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on December 06, 2017, 11:25:28 AM
another iconic pie, gb is back!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 07, 2017, 04:12:52 PM
another iconic pie, gb is back!

Thanks QD!

Here's something new.  A quick video of last nights pie fresh out of the oven.  The dough was now at six days, and I've got to say that I think it peaked at four.  It was a little more delicate and extensible than two days earlier, when it had performed perfectly.  The counter rise may have been a bit longer, which could account for some of that.  It was still very good.  I tried a different fresh mozzarella, a local, supposedly gourmet brand called Murray's.  It was very firm and dry for fresh mozzarella,  and it looks to me as if it barely survived the GB oven.  you can see it's started to break down.  The cheese has a very bubble-marked surface, and I think it's the source of most of that orange oil.  I have no objection to the orange drip, but it didn't contribute much in this case.  Flavor was not bad, but I much prefer my usual brand.

Let's see how this works!  https://youtu.be/r4aeWrNej4Y (https://youtu.be/r4aeWrNej4Y)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: rparker on December 07, 2017, 04:39:59 PM
Still nice, GB!  (though I know what you are saying)   

Sometimes on my older dough balls, the crust did little to hold heat in. Instead of providing a nice bed of heat, it ended up passing through to the sauce and cheese way too aggressively. One of several reasons I stopped doing longer CF's was that I could not control the density to match the crust I was going for on each effort. The beating my cheese was taking was brutal. Sauce flavors reacted differently, too, and would get too bright and spicy on me.

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on December 23, 2017, 10:33:15 PM
Here's a general question if anyone's looking.  I know quite a few people on the forum have tried and even repeatedly used my basic formula.  I have, however varied the hydration quite a bit over the years, though not much else.  My question is, if you're one of those people, what hydration did you settle on as best for you and what kind of flour did you use?  I've hydrated as high as 70 percent and as low as 61.  I've decided to revisit the lower end and just made a 62-percent batch with First Street bread flour.  It, of course, handled much more easily.  Scaling and balling the dough was clean and fast.  I'm just wondering what insights any of you might have to share from your experience with the GB dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on December 29, 2017, 05:54:04 PM
So many post its hard to see whats been changed?

Do you alow a bulk rise at room temperature of just put in the fridge?

Do you add any sugar since suck a long time used fermentation for food gor the yeast? Out of all your days what do you find the best ?

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 04, 2018, 03:09:35 PM
So many post its hard to see whats been changed?

Do you alow a bulk rise at room temperature of just put in the fridge?

Do you add any sugar since suck a long time used fermentation for food gor the yeast? Out of all your days what do you find the best ?

I like to do a bulk counter rise for a couple of hours or so before balling and refrigerating.  Many people go straight to the fridge.  That initial rise definitely changes the texture of the dough, making it more elastic and smooth.  How does this affect the final product days later?  Hard to say because I've never done the experiment of dividing a batch of dough and eliminating the initial rise for half of it.  I've never added sugar, but my oven is slightly modified for high heat (I took out the heat sensor so it doesn't shut off); so I don't have a problem getting color on the crust.  If I knew I were using a lower-heat oven for an occasion, I might add sugar or malt to try to get more browning.  I've gotten pretty close, but I've never had a dough ball die of old age in the fridge, even after 2 weeks; so I don't use sugar with life extension in mind.  For me, depending on the batch, days 3-7 are the sweet spot, but I just made one last night with a 9-day-old dough ball, and it was very good.

Here are 3 shots of it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jsaras on January 04, 2018, 04:08:53 PM
Thanks QD!

Here's something new.  A quick video of last nights pie fresh out of the oven.  The dough was now at six days, and I've got to say that I think it peaked at four.  It was a little more delicate and extensible than two days earlier, when it had performed perfectly.  The counter rise may have been a bit longer, which could account for some of that.  It was still very good.  I tried a different fresh mozzarella, a local, supposedly gourmet brand called Murray's.  It was very firm and dry for fresh mozzarella,  and it looks to me as if it barely survived the GB oven.  you can see it's started to break down.  The cheese has a very bubble-marked surface, and I think it's the source of most of that orange oil.  I have no objection to the orange drip, but it didn't contribute much in this case.  Flavor was not bad, but I much prefer my usual brand.

Let's see how this works!  https://youtu.be/r4aeWrNej4Y (https://youtu.be/r4aeWrNej4Y)

I could hear the sizzle!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 04, 2018, 05:03:25 PM
I have also found room bulking also give better results for me then straight in the fridge
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Lil Ralphie on January 17, 2018, 05:43:56 PM
Thanks for the kind words.

1) Vlap - All Trumps is a high-gluten flour put out by General Mills.  It's a bit hard to get, though if you poke around here, I'm sure you'll find sources.  I got mine from a GM rep I met.  It's the unbleached, unbromated variety.  (You can't get the bromated here in CA unless you bring it in from another state.)

-- GB

Hi Glutenboy I just saw this post beautiful pizza on the first page I also live in Calif. and was wondering about the Bromate  working on a recipe and wanted to try a couple of different flours from Smart and final but don't want bromated and prefer no bleach and was wondering about the bromate for sure not being in the flour I check on ingredients and have not seen bromate listed. I have a bag of Trumps and Power right now. Would really like to get some 00 in a 50# bag or some American 00. The question is I guess for sure no Bromate in California Thanks in advance sorry this is a off topic
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 17, 2018, 05:54:45 PM
I could hear the sizzle!
I know, right??
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on January 17, 2018, 07:39:36 PM
I like to do a bulk counter rise for a couple of hours or so before balling and refrigerating.  Many people go straight to the fridge.  That initial rise definitely changes the texture of the dough, making it more elastic and smooth.  How does this affect the final product days later?  Hard to say because I've never done the experiment of dividing a batch of dough and eliminating the initial rise for half of it.  I've never added sugar, but my oven is slightly modified for high heat (I took out the heat sensor so it doesn't shut off); so I don't have a problem getting color on the crust.  If I knew I were using a lower-heat oven for an occasion, I might add sugar or malt to try to get more browning.  I've gotten pretty close, but I've never had a dough ball die of old age in the fridge, even after 2 weeks; so I don't use sugar with life extension in mind.  For me, depending on the batch, days 3-7 are the sweet spot, but I just made one last night with a 9-day-old dough ball, and it was very good.

Here are 3 shots of it.

Love that pie GB! Are you using fresh mozz only or adding some low moisture mozz also?
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 18, 2018, 10:36:51 PM
Love that pie GB! Are you using fresh mozz only or adding some low moisture mozz also?

Thanks!  This one was all fresh mozz.

Hi Glutenboy I just saw this post beautiful pizza on the first page I also live in Calif. and was wondering about the Bromate  working on a recipe and wanted to try a couple of different flours from Smart and final but don't want bromated and prefer no bleach and was wondering about the bromate for sure not being in the flour I check on ingredients and have not seen bromate listed. I have a bag of Trumps and Power right now. Would really like to get some 00 in a 50# bag or some American 00. The question is I guess for sure no Bromate in California Thanks in advance sorry this is a off topic

In California it's my experience that it's hard to get bromated flour without specifically buying it through a third-party vendor from another state; so the chances of getting it without knowing it would seem pretty slim.  If you buy a 50-lb. bag of a GM flour like All Trumps, they're pretty clearly labeled as far as bleaching and bromating go.  I've looked, and it seems to me you can pretty much get any combination from bleached and bromated to unbleached and unbromated.  Just read carefully, and you shouldn't wind up with anything you don't want.  Hope that answers your question.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on January 26, 2018, 06:32:26 PM
Oh.my.god.

Just had my first attempt at GB's recipe tonight, and it was a huge success-best pizza I've made yet, by far.

Here's what I did:

All trumps Bromated 100%
Water (room temp) 61.06%
IDY .282%
Salt 2.5%
LDMP .25% (I recall reading a little bit on this, saying that it might make a small difference after 3 days, so I figured I'd try it...no idea if it mattered or not)

I've been trying my hand at a lot of pizza lately, and originally planned to only do a 3-day ferment, but life got in the way and it ended up staying in the fridge for 6 days total (made it Saturday, cooked Friday).

The steel was 540 at launch and I cooked it for about 7 minutes, turning on the broiler towards the end.  I noticed some missing spots when I first moved it, so I added a little more cheese (Galbani sliced from the deli), which explains the pieces that aren't quite as cooked.

Now for some questions I hope you can answer:

1)Do you think the LDMP made any difference at all?
2) This is my first time cooking with AT-bromated.  I can't tell you how great everything tasted and the crust had this amazing chew to it.  Is this due to the dough or the CF?  Basically, do you think I would have the same results with an unbromated AT or even just a normal bread flour?

Thanks for the recipe, man-this was great.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 28, 2018, 09:33:14 PM
Oh.my.god.

Just had my first attempt at GB's recipe tonight, and it was a huge success-best pizza I've made yet, by far.

Here's what I did:

All trumps Bromated 100%
Water (room temp) 61.06%
IDY .282%
Salt 2.5%
LDMP .25% (I recall reading a little bit on this, saying that it might make a small difference after 3 days, so I figured I'd try it...no idea if it mattered or not)

I've been trying my hand at a lot of pizza lately, and originally planned to only do a 3-day ferment, but life got in the way and it ended up staying in the fridge for 6 days total (made it Saturday, cooked Friday).

The steel was 540 at launch and I cooked it for about 7 minutes, turning on the broiler towards the end.  I noticed some missing spots when I first moved it, so I added a little more cheese (Galbani sliced from the deli), which explains the pieces that aren't quite as cooked.

Now for some questions I hope you can answer:

1)Do you think the LDMP made any difference at all?
2) This is my first time cooking with AT-bromated.  I can't tell you how great everything tasted and the crust had this amazing chew to it.  Is this due to the dough or the CF?  Basically, do you think I would have the same results with an unbromated AT or even just a normal bread flour?

Thanks for the recipe, man-this was great.

Nice crumb and great color on the bottom.  I haven't played around with LDMP or bromated flour for that matter; so it's hard for me to give you a good response.  I just wanted to give you my compliments and say I'm glad it worked out so well for you.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pizzabro on January 29, 2018, 04:19:41 PM
Great looking pie! Love the cornicione!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 05, 2018, 08:34:09 AM
So I did another attempt at this pie last night for the superbowl, only with two changes:

1) I used the non-bromated All Trumps
2) It only CF'ed for 3 days

Most notable things were that I had to actually add about 15g of water compared to last time, which boosted the hydration by about 4-5%.  The dough just wasn't coming together as well as the bromated...not sure why.  Also, when I cooked it, there was not nearly as much oven spring.  I'm not sure if that's due using the non-bromated version, or it didn't CF as long as the last one (6 days), or a combination of both.

Still, the pizza tasted amazing...just wish it had a bit more oven spring.  This dough also stretched perfectly...It felt like I could do nothing wrong with the dough. I have a second dough ball still in the fridge so I might wait until that's 6 days mature so I can do a side by side test of the two...maybe that will help me rule out bromated vs non-bromated.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 07, 2018, 06:42:37 PM
Another attempt with the same dough as last time, but with 6 days of ferment time.  The result?  Absolutely delicious, and we think a bit better than using AT-bromated. The bromated seemed almost too...chewy in some aspects?  This dough tonight was wonderful to work with and tasted amazing, with a great amount of oven spring, though not as much as the bromated...I did use a slightly bigger rim when making this.

Still having problems with the dough and cheese sliding when I move from the peel to the steel, so I need to work on that, but it was a great pizza.  Next I'll have to try KABF just to see how much of a difference it is to me.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 07, 2018, 07:14:09 PM
Looking good, Nick..yes , those long doughs taste great!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 08, 2018, 07:54:27 PM
So I did another attempt at this pie last night for the superbowl, only with two changes:

1) I used the non-bromated All Trumps
2) It only CF'ed for 3 days

Most notable things were that I had to actually add about 15g of water compared to last time, which boosted the hydration by about 4-5%.  The dough just wasn't coming together as well as the bromated...not sure why.  Also, when I cooked it, there was not nearly as much oven spring.  I'm not sure if that's due using the non-bromated version, or it didn't CF as long as the last one (6 days), or a combination of both.

Still, the pizza tasted amazing...just wish it had a bit more oven spring.  This dough also stretched perfectly...It felt like I could do nothing wrong with the dough. I have a second dough ball still in the fridge so I might wait until that's 6 days mature so I can do a side by side test of the two...maybe that will help me rule out bromated vs non-bromated.

Both pizzas look fantastic.  That really is a big jump in hydration.  When I was going through my 50-pound bag of All Trumps (unbleached and unbromated), my first surprise was that I had to use less water than I did with GM Bread Flour.  Whatever you did looks like a winner.  I'm going to buy some bromated AT flour and give it a try one of these days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 09, 2018, 12:31:46 PM
Both pizzas look fantastic.  That really is a big jump in hydration.  When I was going through my 50-pound bag of All Trumps (unbleached and unbromated), my first surprise was that I had to use less water than I did with GM Bread Flour.  Whatever you did looks like a winner.  I'm going to buy some bromated AT flour and give it a try one of these days.

First, thanks for the kudos-I love making this pizza!

You're right-it was a huge jump in hydration.  A couple of thoughts as I look back on it:

1) It may have partially been the culprit of not making enough dough.  I only made enough for two 14" dough balls, so when I was trying to incorporate it in the mixer, it just wasn't coming together that well.

2) Possible mismanagement of water.  What I did: Took about 15g water, dropped it in thinking 'eh it's not that much' without thinking about hydration percentage, and it came together fine.  What I should have done: Added water in 1% increments until it came together how I liked it.

It's also crazy to me the oven temps I'm running on this pizza.  I've been so used to my original research where "hot an oven as possible, use the cleaning method if you can!" but with these pizzas, I've been keeping the oven at 500, and the steel might get up to 510-515 degrees, I then cook it for about 7-8 minutes and it just comes out wonderfully.  I'm just so glad to be getting great results!  The main things I want to focus on now are the cheese and how I slide it off the peel.  The cheese doesn't have to be changed at all, in my opinion (Galbani skim milk sliced from the deli), but I need to work on the slide so nothing shifts on top of the pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on February 12, 2018, 06:23:36 PM
First, thanks for the kudos-I love making this pizza!

You're right-it was a huge jump in hydration.  A couple of thoughts as I look back on it:

1) It may have partially been the culprit of not making enough dough.  I only made enough for two 14" dough balls, so when I was trying to incorporate it in the mixer, it just wasn't coming together that well.

2) Possible mismanagement of water.  What I did: Took about 15g water, dropped it in thinking 'eh it's not that much' without thinking about hydration percentage, and it came together fine.  What I should have done: Added water in 1% increments until it came together how I liked it.

It's also crazy to me the oven temps I'm running on this pizza.  I've been so used to my original research where "hot an oven as possible, use the cleaning method if you can!" but with these pizzas, I've been keeping the oven at 500, and the steel might get up to 510-515 degrees, I then cook it for about 7-8 minutes and it just comes out wonderfully.  I'm just so glad to be getting great results!  The main things I want to focus on now are the cheese and how I slide it off the peel.  The cheese doesn't have to be changed at all, in my opinion (Galbani skim milk sliced from the deli), but I need to work on the slide so nothing shifts on top of the pizza.

I modded my oven a bit to get high temperatures; so I haven't taken the baking-steel plunge yet, but I'm not surprised that it's lowered your oven-temperature requirements.  Its heat retention makes it a game changer.  I'm really glad it's working out so well.  I'd love to see you make a side-by-side comparison of two pizzas - one with bromate one without - otherwise prepared identically.

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 15, 2018, 09:21:31 AM
I modded my oven a bit to get high temperatures; so I haven't taken the baking-steel plunge yet, but I'm not surprised that it's lowered your oven-temperature requirements.  Its heat retention makes it a game changer.  I'm really glad it's working out so well.  I'd love to see you make a side-by-side comparison of two pizzas - one with bromate one without - otherwise prepared identically.

- GB  :chef:

That's a good idea!  I've currently got two dough balls in the fridge using KASL to see how it compares, but after those two are gone, I'll make a batch of AT-bromated and AT-unbromated.  With that, I'll plan on doing pizzas at 3 days and 6 days with each type of dough to see how it compares.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 20, 2018, 06:47:43 PM
Oh man, so a 6-day CF with the KASL...not impressed one bit.

I followed everything to a "T", and the only thing I changed was the container I put the dough balls in for the CF...I'm wondering if that had anything to do with it.

The containers I've used in the past are fairly small-maybe 3-4" in diameter, and I've always experienced quite a bit of air buildup in the dough after 6 days, and the dough rises probably double in size.  The containers I used today are about 8" in diameter, and the dough never really 'rose' like it does in the smaller containers, and it wasn't as airy...I hardly had any bubbles I needed to pop when stretching the dough out.

The cook on this one led to a very crisp crust, and hardly any crumb.  It still tasted good, but the pizza was far too thin and the slices didn't hang over nearly as much as my other pizzas do.

Back to the drawing board with this one.  I might try the KASL again with the smaller containers to see if that makes any difference.

Besides the container difference, any other ideas?  Could I have overmixed/undermixed the dough?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Josh123 on February 20, 2018, 10:08:44 PM
NY pizza isn't supposed to have much of a crumb.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 21, 2018, 12:06:26 AM
Sounds like maybe  a proofing issue ?...and with the size of the containers the dough filled the container differently and masked the expected rise, which would have been based on the  the original container  That's just my guess.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 21, 2018, 06:48:51 AM
Sounds like maybe  a proofing issue ?...and with the size of the containers the dough filled the container differently and masked the expected rise, which would have been based on the  the original container  That's just my guess.

You might be right-I'm not entirely sure.  The dough definitely did rise a bit.  However, since the new containers were larger in diameter, the dough didn't rise vertically that much-instead it appears that it rose horizontally...just expanded a lot more since it had the room to.  It was also the same yeast from the same packet I had used a week ago, and I let it proof at room temperature for 4 hours, just like the other doughs in the past, so I'm not sure...I'll have to do some research and maybe post a separate thread on this issue.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 21, 2018, 01:56:22 PM
Nick, how much yeast, percentage wise? IDY or ADY?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on February 22, 2018, 06:47:19 AM
Nick, how much yeast, percentage wise? IDY or ADY?

.282% IDY, same as I've used in the past.

I posted my results in the dough doctor's forum, and he responded really quickly.  Bottom line is he thinks, based on what I posted, that the larger containers were a factor:

Quote
...The larger diameter container allowed the dough to expand outward (dough will always try to expand outward as it is the path of least resistance) so much of the leavening gas was not seen as it was allowed to escape into the space within the container (dough only retains a small portion of the leavening gas, the rest passes through it into the surrounding atmosphere) This is why you didn't see the bubbles. BUT you never said you had any problems opening the dough so I'm guessing fermentation was still OK, and you said the flavor was still good, again an indication that fermentation was still good. Because there wasn't as much gas trapped within the dough cell structure (the smaller container will help to prevent it from escaping into the surrounding space because there in LESS surrounding space) there was less present IN the dough when you opened it into a skin. The open cell structure is well known to be partially responsible for the crispiness as well as the firmness of the finished/baked crust...

I have some more of the smaller containers on order now.  I only had two of them and noticed they were getting pretty full as the dough approached 6+ days, so I wanted to try the larger ones.  The larger ones have been put out to recycling.  I'll be making some more dough today/tomorrow, so hopefully next week I can get some new, better, results!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 22, 2018, 08:15:30 AM
Sounds good , Nick!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on March 01, 2018, 06:36:12 PM
So, there is absolutely nothing wrong with KASL and everything wrong with the containers I was using.

6 day CF, same recipe as before, except I used the old containers that are about 4" in diameter instead of 8" or whatever.  The dough rose beautifully in the fridge and even better for the three hours before baking.

500 degree oven, baking steel measured at 520.  7:30 cook time, then the broiler until 8:45.  Everything about this pie was perfect, though I would have liked more browning on the cheese.  Maybe next time turn the broiler on at 7:00 instead of 7:30.

I also took some recommendations and bought a brick of Walmart great value cheese.  I'm impressed.  Only thing I need to work on is getting the same thickness in the slices I cut.
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 05, 2018, 07:20:02 PM
So, there is absolutely nothing wrong with KASL and everything wrong with the containers I was using.

6 day CF, same recipe as before, except I used the old containers that are about 4" in diameter instead of 8" or whatever.  The dough rose beautifully in the fridge and even better for the three hours before baking.

500 degree oven, baking steel measured at 520.  7:30 cook time, then the broiler until 8:45.  Everything about this pie was perfect, though I would have liked more browning on the cheese.  Maybe next time turn the broiler on at 7:00 instead of 7:30.

I also took some recommendations and bought a brick of Walmart great value cheese.  I'm impressed.  Only thing I need to work on is getting the same thickness in the slices I cut.

First of all, that looks beautiful.  Second, I know you had trouble with the previous pie, but are you sure it was the container?  Before I started using the Glad round containers, I was fermenting my doughballs on the shelf of the fridge in Ziploc bags, and people seem to proof their dough in a pretty wide variety of containers.  Never had a problem with rising.  Is it possible you had a bad packet of yeast?  Just thinking that the size of the container doesn't sound like it could account for the problem you described.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 05, 2018, 10:17:13 PM
I was wondering the same...I usually keep mine in a larger container for a number of days before shaping into balls 24 hours prebake.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 05, 2018, 11:28:58 PM
Just to change the subject for a moment -- I refused to eat pizza up until the age of four.  Then I watched an episode of The Flinstones in which Barney raids the fridge and steals a pizza.  As soon as he took a bite, I knew I had to have some.  I immediately told my mom that this was something I must try.  She bought me back a Tree Tavern frozen pizza (local NJ/NY brand) from the Grand Union (Local NJ grocery store) and made it for my dinner that evening.  I never looked back.

Here's the clip that began my lifelong love affair with pizza.  I think it was the chomp at the end that did it.

https://youtu.be/FwO3fAleHhA (https://youtu.be/FwO3fAleHhA)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on March 06, 2018, 10:10:55 AM
Just to change the subject for a moment -- I refused to eat pizza up until the age of four.  Then I watched an episode of The Flinstones in which Barney raids the fridge and steals a pizza.  As soon as he took a bite, I knew I had to have some.  I immediately told my mom that this was something I must try.  She bought me back a Tree Tavern frozen pizza (local NJ/NY brand) from the Grand Union (Local NJ grocery store) and made it for my dinner that evening.  I never looked back.

Here's the clip that began my lifelong love affair with pizza.  I think it was the chomp at the end that did it.

https://youtu.be/FwO3fAleHhA (https://youtu.be/FwO3fAleHhA)

Awesome story! Love the nostalgia GB!

Man they don't make cartoons like they used too....
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Nwin on March 09, 2018, 02:42:07 PM
First of all, that looks beautiful.  Second, I know you had trouble with the previous pie, but are you sure it was the container?  Before I started using the Glad round containers, I was fermenting my doughballs on the shelf of the fridge in Ziploc bags, and people seem to proof their dough in a pretty wide variety of containers.  Never had a problem with rising.  Is it possible you had a bad packet of yeast?  Just thinking that the size of the container doesn't sound like it could account for the problem you described.

I don't think so-the packet of yeast I used was the same packet I used for the previous pizza I made a week prior.  Maybe I did something else different as far as mixing times, etc., but I can't place anything too different that occurred.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: JasonZ on June 12, 2018, 12:33:18 AM
The technique/bakers %'s in the OP seems to work flawlessly for me! The dough when proofed for 4-6 days was a dream to work with and ended up with a great texture/flavour.

Here's a couple photos of two pies cooked on my blackstone at 550-600F.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on June 14, 2018, 06:41:21 PM
The technique/bakers %'s in the OP seems to work flawlessly for me! The dough when proofed for 4-6 days was a dream to work with and ended up with a great texture/flavour.

Here's a couple photos of two pies cooked on my blackstone at 550-600F.
Nice! I especially like the second pie.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: nirc on September 04, 2018, 10:45:59 AM

The formulation I used for eight 300 (plus a gram or 2) gram dough balls is as follows:

All Trumps Flour -      1520 g - 100%
Water (room temp) -   928 g -  61.05632%
IDY -                        4.3 g -  .282895%   (measured as 1 teaspoon)
Sea Salt -                   38 g -   2.5%

-- GB

1) Can anyone assist me in breaking down this recipe in order to make one 16" pie?
2) I only have Member's Mark pizza flour (see link below). Can anyone assist when substituting it for the above flour? perhaps by changing quantity and/or add VWG.
TIA

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/mm-b-p-flour-25-lb/prod21480585.ip?xid=plp_product_1_1

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: chrisgraff on September 05, 2018, 11:30:30 PM
1) Can anyone assist me in breaking down this recipe in order to make one 16" pie?
2) I only have Member's Mark pizza flour (see link below). Can anyone assist when substituting it for the above flour? perhaps by changing quantity and/or add VWG.
TIA

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/mm-b-p-flour-25-lb/prod21480585.ip?xid=plp_product_1_1

I'd do something like:
250g flour
152g water
0.7g IDY
6.25g salt


PS Make a double or triple batch. IMHO, it's no fun working with a smaller amount than that.
PSS We're neighbors! We should have a pizza summit sometime!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on September 06, 2018, 05:33:26 AM
1) Can anyone assist me in breaking down this recipe in order to make one 16" pie?
2) I only have Member's Mark pizza flour (see link below). Can anyone assist when substituting it for the above flour? perhaps by changing quantity and/or add VWG.
TIA

https://www.samsclub.com/sams/mm-b-p-flour-25-lb/prod21480585.ip?xid=plp_product_1_1


According to my calculations - famous last words - the multiplier to go from 14 inches to 16 inches is 1.306122448979592.  You should end up with about a 392-gram dough ball.  That's based on the formula for the surface area of a circle, πr2.  If you multiply the weight of each ingredient by that number when the moon is full, you should get a 16-inch pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 04, 2019, 03:22:20 PM
It's been a while!  2018 was hectic.  It was a bad year for pizza making in the GB household for a variety of reasons, but the most relevant factor was that my new GB home oven, though the same variety as my old one, wasn't producing reliable results.  Uneven bakes, incinerated door seals, and oven fires (the last two due to my temperature modifications) were really taking the fun out of the process.  I don't know why my old oven didn't give me the same aggravations, but I guess it had some kind of fortunate equilibrium which this one lacked.  I decided recently to see whether I could pinpoint and address the issues at hand.   Yes, I could have bought an oven designed to do the job properly and safely, but this is not the Glutenboy way.  First came the door seal.  The standard gasket for my oven door is a black rubber ribbon that attaches to the door with metal clips.  Replacing it helped, but the replacements would quickly burn to a crisp.  Without a good seal, two things happened.  The first is heat loss and accompanying oven fires, which I assumed to be fueled by the freely circulating air.  The second was burned bottoms and pale tops on my pies, which I decided were the result of high deck heat coupled with the loss of ambient heat.

Job 1 was to heatproof the door seal.  I bought a woven fiberglass gasket, the kind often used on high-heat grills like the Big Green Egg, and attached it to the door using the clips I salvaged from my burned rubber seals.  Partial success.  The new gasket was indeed immune to heat, which was a victory.  However, the woven fiberglass did little to impede air circulation and the accompanying heat loss.  I had to make things more airtight.  A little research led me to food-grade RTV red silicone, which is often used to replace gaskets in both outdoor grills and automobile engines.  I masked the inside of the oven door with smooth tape and masked the outer door around the rope gasket.  I then filled the gap, generously coating the fiberglass gasket with the red silicone, and closed the door to create a perfect mold.  Twenty four hours later, I popped open the oven door.  It stuck closed at first, which gave me a scare, but a good yank broke the adhesion to the masking tape.  The gasket was perfectly formed.  I gave it a test run, leaving the oven on for a couple of hours.  I had an airtight seal and a very hot interior.  I used a frozen pizza for an oven test.  First time worked very well.  It burned a bit, because frozen pizzas aren't meant to be baked at 1-million degrees, but the good news was no fire and even cooking.  The second test gave me a scare.  There was some oil drip on the oven floor.  I opened the door and saw something I've never seen.  It was an oven fire with a solid blue flame and a lot of smoke.  I was only momentarily deterred.  I found a high-heat grill liner and put it on the rack under the deck for my next test.  I put a generous pour of olive oil on my test pie - to encourage dripping - and unleashed hell once again.  It worked perfectly.  The oil dripped.  It was so hot that by the time the oven cooled, the dripped oil had thickened on the liner, but nothing ever threatened to ignite.

It was time to make some dough.  I haven't been happy with my pizzas for a while; so I decided to go back to basics.  I used ADY instead of IDY and hand kneaded the dough.  No mixer at all.  I started at around 62-percent hydration and made adjustments by feel, which led me to a final hydration of around 64 percent.  I allowed my traditional room-temperature rise, which turned out to be moderate, balled the dough (I only made two dough balls), and put it in the fridge.  The dough didn't rise enough in the cooler for me to consider reballing; so I just decided to leave it until bake time.  Four days later, it was time for the first real test.  The dough looked fine, and the smell of fermentation told me I had nothing to worry about, but the rise was anemic.  I had used some yeast that had been in the cabinet for a while; so while it wasn't dead, it may have been past it's prime.  Because of that, I decided on an extra-long counter rise before baking.  It turned out fine.  The dough was extensible but very strong.  It told me when it was done stretching, and it never threatened to tear.  No thin spots.  Very easy to work with.  My sauce was uncooked Sclafani crushed to which I added some salt and lightly sauteed garlic, along with the little bit of EVOO in which I cooked it.  I added some freshly grated Reggiano and Pecorino and topped it off with low-moisture fresh mozzarella and a moderate drizzle of EVOO.  The oven had been preheating for about 90 minutes.  In went the pie.

My efforts seem to have paid off.  I got a very fast, even bake, with great color on the top and spots of char on the bottom, without any burning.  No smoke, no fire.  Just some really good pizza.  Here are the results.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 04, 2019, 04:06:11 PM
Out. Of. The. Park, GlutenMan!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 04, 2019, 04:10:35 PM
Nailed it
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 04, 2019, 04:18:55 PM
 :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 04, 2019, 05:09:55 PM
GBoy..please be careful. Your pizza is to die for...but not literally!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 04, 2019, 05:30:26 PM
GlutenBoy's new image!

Red for the sauce
Yellow for the crust
Green for some basil
Black for a little char

 ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jsaras on January 04, 2019, 05:56:01 PM
It's been a while!  2018 was hectic.  It was a bad year for pizza making in the GB household for a variety of reasons, but the most relevant factor was that my new GB home oven, though the same variety as my old one, wasn't producing reliable results.  Uneven bakes, incinerated door seals, and oven fires (the last two due to my temperature modifications) were really taking the fun out of the process.  I don't know why my old oven didn't give me the same aggravations, but I guess it had some kind of fortunate equilibrium which this one lacked.  I decided recently to see whether I could pinpoint and address the issues at hand.   Yes, I could have bought an oven designed to do the job properly and safely, but this is not the Glutenboy way.  First came the door seal.  The standard gasket for my oven door is a black rubber ribbon that attaches to the door with metal clips.  Replacing it helped, but the replacements would quickly burn to a crisp.  Without a good seal, two things happened.  The first is heat loss and accompanying oven fires, which I assumed to be fueled by the freely circulating air.  The second was burned bottoms and pale tops on my pies, which I decided were the result of high deck heat coupled with the loss of ambient heat.

Job 1 was to heatproof the door seal.  I bought a woven fiberglass gasket, the kind often used on high-heat grills like the Big Green Egg, and attached it to the door using the clips I salvaged from my burned rubber seals.  Partial success.  The new gasket was indeed immune to heat, which was a victory.  However, the woven fiberglass did little to impede air circulation and the accompanying heat loss.  I had to make things more airtight.  A little research led me to food-grade RTV red silicone, which is often used to replace gaskets in both outdoor grills and automobile engines.  I masked the inside of the oven door with smooth tape, and masked the outer door around the rope gasket.  I then filled the gap, generously coating the fiberglass gasket with the red silicone, and closed the door to create a perfect mold.  Twenty four hours later, I popped open the oven door.  It stuck closed at first, which gave me a scare, but a good yank broke the adhesion to the masking tape.  The gasket was perfectly formed.  I gave it a test run, leaving the oven on for a couple of hours.  I had an airtight seal and a very hot interior.  I used a frozen pizza for an oven test.  First time worked very well.  It burned a bit, because frozen pizzas aren't meant to be baked at 1-million degrees, but no fire and even cooking.  The second test gave me a scare.  There was some oil drip on the oven floor.  I opened the door and saw something I've never seen.  It was an oven fire with a solid blue flame and tremendous heat and smoke.  I was only momentarily deterred.  I found a high heat liner and put on the rack under the deck for my next test.  I put a generous pour of olive oil on my next test pie to encourage dripping, and unleashed hell once again.  It worked perfectly.  The oil dripped.  It was so hot that by the end of the bake, the dripped oil was thick on the liner, but nothing ever threatened to ignite.

It was time to make some dough.  I haven't been happy with my pizzas for a while; so I decided to go back to basics.  I used ADY instead of IDY and hand kneaded the dough.  No mixer at all.  I started at around 62-percent hydration and made adjustments by feel which led me to a final hydration of around 64 percent.  I allowed my traditional room-temperature rise, which turned out to be moderate, balled the dough (I only made two dough balls), and put it in the fridge.  The dough didn't rise enough in the cooler for me to consider reballing; so I just decided to leave it until bake time.  Four days later, it was time for the first real test.  The dough looked fine, and the smell of fermentation told me I had nothing to worry about, but the rise was anemic.  I had used some yeast that had been in the cabinet for a while; so while it wasn't dead, it may have been past it's prime.  Because of that, I decided on an extra-long counter rise before baking.  It turned out fine.  The dough was extensible but very strong.  It told me when it was done stretching, and it never threatened to tear.  No thin spots.  Very easy to work with.  My sauce was uncooked Sclafani crushed to which I added some salt and lightly sauteed garlic along with the little bit of EVOO in which I cooked it.  I added some freshly grated Reggiano and Pecorino and topped it with low-moisture fresh mozzarella and a moderate drizzle of EVOO.  The oven had been preheating for about 90 minutes.  In went the pie.

My efforts seem to have paid off.  I got a very fast, even bake, with great color on the top and spots of char on the bottom without any burning.  No smoke, no fire.  Just some really good pizza.  Here are the results.

Looks great!! The interesting thing to me is that your pizza has an identifiable style that’s yours, as do several others on the forum.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on January 04, 2019, 08:19:41 PM
Nailed it

 ^^^
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 12:07:24 AM
GBoy..please be careful. Your pizza is to die for...but not literally!
Thanks for caring, JPB. ;D  That grease-fire thing was a concern.  The last two bakes with these two dough balls seemed to be completely incident free though.  I shall heed your words and proceed with caution.  >:D
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 12:10:48 AM
GlutenBoy's new image!

Red for the sauce
Yellow for the crust
Green for some basil
Black for a little char

 ;D
I like it, indeed, Mike.  The best part is that when I transform into my superhero persona, I get more hair.  I would add one more item to the symbolism list.  The bubbles represent my light, airy cornicione of justice!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 12:16:11 AM
Looks great!! The interesting thing to me is that your pizza has an identifiable style that’s yours, as do several others on the forum.
Thanks, Jonas!  It's true, isn't it?  We each have our own visual signature.  I think once, several years ago - it may have been done again and I just missed it - someone put up photos of some of the members' pies without their names and had a little contest where we had to identify the baker just by a picture of their pizza.  Many were so distinctive that it was a slam dunk!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2019, 10:57:14 AM
GB,

I'm glad to see that you are back in the saddle again and able to make your signature pizzas again. Your dough formulations and this thread have helped make many of our members--too many to count--able to replicate your style. There was a reason why your versions of the NY style made it to the top of the list at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on January 05, 2019, 01:45:36 PM
GB,

I'm glad to see that you are back in the saddle again and able to make your signature pizzas again. Your dough formulations and this thread have helped make many of our members--too many to count--able to replicate your style. There was a reason why your versions of the NY style made it to the top of the list at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

Peter

One of the early recipes I used and is STILL a favorite goto dough around here, LOVE IT!!! Goes to show how much impact Glutenboy's posts have, he's one of the most recognized members here with one of the least amount of posts compared to others! That says something!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 05, 2019, 01:56:46 PM
Glade to see you back! On of the 1st recipes that gave me great pizza with long fermentation..


Ive always wondered do you ever shoot for a finished dough temperature or just roll with whatever?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on January 05, 2019, 06:01:47 PM
great bake gb, welcome back!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 07:59:51 PM
GB,

I'm glad to see that you are back in the saddle again and able to make your signature pizzas again. Your dough formulations and this thread have helped make many of our members--too many to count--able to replicate your style. There was a reason why your versions of the NY style made it to the top of the list at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

Peter
Thanks, Peter!  It really means a lot to hear that among all these great pizzamakers I was able to add some value to the forum.  It's good to be back.  I intend to stay until my house burns down.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 08:05:39 PM
One of the early recipes I used and is STILL a favorite goto dough around here, LOVE IT!!! Goes to show how much impact Glutenboy's posts have, he's one of the most recognized members here with one of the least amount of posts compared to others! That says something!
Thanks, Jon.  Honestly what it says to me is that I'm good at drawing attention to myself.  :-D #classclown
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 08:14:06 PM
Glade to see you back! On of the 1st recipes that gave me great pizza with long fermentation..


Ive always wondered do you ever shoot for a finished dough temperature or just roll with whatever?
I'm ashamed to admit that I've never stuck a thermometer into a hunk of dough.  Your question makes me wonder, though, whether the reason I have good luck with ADY and hand kneading is that they force me both to feel the water temperature before I add the yeast and to feel by hand when the dough temperature is right - even though I haven't measured them.  If I'm going to work primarily with a mixer, water and dough temperatures should probably become part of my routine.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 05, 2019, 08:15:18 PM
great bake gb, welcome back!
Thanks, QD!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 05, 2019, 09:49:30 PM
I'm ashamed to admit that I've never stuck a thermometer into a hunk of dough.  Your question makes me wonder, though, whether the reason I have good luck with ADY and hand kneading is that they force me both to feel the water temperature before I add the yeast and to feel by hand when the dough temperature is right - even though I haven't measured them.  If I'm going to work primarily with a mixer, water and dough temperatures should probably become part of my routine.


It is a added inconvenience but for someone like me with less experience I find it necessary to get constant results with my best cooks I figure it out same as using a percentage of an ingredient to keep things consistent. Reading Peter's thread on him playing around with finish dough temperature really open my eyes to how you can manipulate the amount of days just by the water temperature instead of adjusting the yeast to micro amounts.. Norm also tried to teach me in the past but I wasn't an experienced enough to understand the true potential of it.




You're on a different League than me and probably not as important because you always have amazing results un like I would.


I definitely need to revisit your recipe again the only issue is I only have weak flour right now but I do remember it was the most flavorful Pizza I had when I pushed it out to around six days
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 06, 2019, 01:39:45 AM

It is a added inconvenience but for someone like me with less experience I find it necessary to get constant results with my best cooks I figure it out same as using a percentage of an ingredient to keep things consistent. Reading Peter's thread on him playing around with finish dough temperature really open my eyes to how you can manipulate the amount of days just by the water temperature instead of adjusting the yeast to micro amounts.. Norm also tried to teach me in the past but I wasn't an experienced enough to understand the true potential of it.




You're on a different League than me and probably not as important because you always have amazing results un like I would.


I definitely need to revisit your recipe again the only issue is I only have weak flour right now but I do remember it was the most flavorful Pizza I had when I pushed it out to around six days
Don't be modest, Josh, I've seen what you've been up to.  I've made plenty of bad pizzas and conveniently forgotten to take pictures.  I would definitely be better off if I were more meticulous.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 06, 2019, 02:22:09 AM
 :D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 15, 2019, 05:54:57 PM
Okay, it's out of left field, but I've decided that, unless you've got either a big spiral mixer or one like Mike's that actually stretches the dough as it kneads it, hand kneading yields a superior dough.  I went back to a technique that I used in the days before my Kitchen Aid where I basically pull the dough like taffy.  I stretch (not roll -- stretch) the kneaded dough into a pretty long rope.  Then I fold it in half, twist it into a tight spiral, fold and twist yet again, then stretch and repeat until I get a smooth, elastic dough.  After the counter rise, it windowpaned very nicely.  I could tell by the shine and the texture, that I was onto something.  I then stretched it fairly thin in every direction, folded it up, pulled it tight, and divided it into four very easy-to-handle dough balls.  These pics were taken last night, after only 48 hours in the cooler -- a short time by my usual standards.  The flavor was good, but I'm sure tomorrow's will be even better.  the oven is working very well too.  Anybody else treat their dough in a similar fashion?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 15, 2019, 06:05:52 PM
Okay, it's out of left field, but I've decided that, unless you've got either a big spiral mixer or one like Mike's that actually stretches the dough as it kneads it, hand kneading yields a superior dough.  I went back to a technique that I used in the days before my Kitchen Aid where I basically pull the dough like taffy.  I stretch (not roll -- stretch) the kneaded dough into a pretty long rope.  Then I fold it in half, twist it into a tight spiral, fold and twist yet again, then stretch and repeat until I get a smooth, elastic dough.  After the counter rise, it windowpaned very nicely.  I could tell by the shine and the texture, that I was onto something.  I then stretched it fairly thin in every direction, folded it up, pulled it tight, and divided it into four very easy-to-handle dough balls.  These pics were taken last night, after only 48 hours in the cooler -- a short time by my usual standards.  The flavor was good, but I'm sure tomorrow's will be even better.  the oven is working very well too.  Anybody else treat their dough in a similar fashion?


As usual another beautiful pie!




That is a different technique I will have to give it a try I have done something kind of similar in the past that I watched a Japanese noodle Chef do to develop gluten in his dough, he actually made his act like a jump rope slapping it against the counter.


I do Norm on here does a method kind of like yours I seen him explaining that he makes it the size of a pencil or something like that, I have just been doing regular stretch and folding lately and I do agree to gives a superior product the biggest difference I found was stretching and folding into a dough ball shape then do a few tension pulls, I've had very positive results doing this.


I'm going to mess around with your method but I barely use my mixer anymore I started out with a Danish dough whisk which I think is superior with the small batches I'm doing


Here is a video
https://youtu.be/xOz5UZ4NutU (https://youtu.be/xOz5UZ4NutU)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 15, 2019, 06:49:43 PM

As usual another beautiful pie!




That is a different technique I will have to give it a try I have done something kind of similar in the past that I watched a Japanese noodle Chef do to develop gluten in his dough, he actually made his act like a jump rope slapping it against the counter.


I do Norm on here does a method kind of like yours I seen him explaining that he makes it the size of a pencil or something like that, I have just been doing regular stretch and folding lately and I do agree to gives a superior product the biggest difference I found was stretching and folding into a dough ball shape then do a few tension pulls, I've had very positive results doing this.


I'm going to mess around with your method but I barely use my mixer anymore I started out with a Danish dough whisk which I think is superior with the small batches I'm doing


Here is a video
https://youtu.be/xOz5UZ4NutU (https://youtu.be/xOz5UZ4NutU)
Same thing minus the violence!!! :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on January 15, 2019, 07:54:27 PM
Okay, it's out of left field, but I've decided that, unless you've got either a big spiral mixer or one like Mike's that actually stretches the dough as it kneads it, hand kneading yields a superior dough.  I went back to a technique that I used in the days before my Kitchen Aid where I basically pull the dough like taffy.  I stretch (not roll -- stretch) the kneaded dough into a pretty long rope.  Then I fold it in half, twist it into a tight spiral, fold and twist yet again, then stretch and repeat until I get a smooth, elastic dough.  After the counter rise, it windowpaned very nicely.  I could tell by the shine and the texture, that I was onto something.  I then stretched it fairly thin in every direction, folded it up, pulled it tight, and divided it into four very easy-to-handle dough balls.  These pics were taken last night, after only 48 hours in the cooler -- a short time by my usual standards.  The flavor was good, but I'm sure tomorrow's will be even better.  the oven is working very well too.  Anybody else treat their dough in a similar fashion?

Nice looking pie! :chef:   
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 15, 2019, 10:03:05 PM
Nice looking pie! :chef:
Gracias!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 15, 2019, 11:25:03 PM
Well, now I want hand-pulled noodles. N1, spicy cumin lamb noodles OMG  at Xian Famous Foods, NYC.. Meet me there, GB,  they're so good... it's only 3K miles   
But I digress :-D


GB, I mix pretty similarly to that, not always doing the taffy thing but pretty much the same technique. Doc Tom and Forkish say that windowpane isn't necessary for pizza, and I think that's because of the concern of over-mixing. But Tom recently clarified that over-mixing by hand is something that doesn't happen. We are not mixers. My "Kitchen Aid"  is me   :-D  And  I too like the dough pretty silky when I'm finished
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Essen1 on January 16, 2019, 08:57:24 PM
Okay, it's out of left field, but I've decided that, unless you've got either a big spiral mixer or one like Mike's that actually stretches the dough as it kneads it, hand kneading yields a superior dough.  I went back to a technique that I used in the days before my Kitchen Aid where I basically pull the dough like taffy.  I stretch (not roll -- stretch) the kneaded dough into a pretty long rope.  Then I fold it in half, twist it into a tight spiral, fold and twist yet again, then stretch and repeat until I get a smooth, elastic dough.  After the counter rise, it windowpaned very nicely.  I could tell by the shine and the texture, that I was onto something.  I then stretched it fairly thin in every direction, folded it up, pulled it tight, and divided it into four very easy-to-handle dough balls.  These pics were taken last night, after only 48 hours in the cooler -- a short time by my usual standards.  The flavor was good, but I'm sure tomorrow's will be even better.  the oven is working very well too.  Anybody else treat their dough in a similar fashion?

Dude, it’s not “out of left field”, it’s “outta tha pahhhhk”!  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 16, 2019, 11:21:02 PM
Dude, it’s not “out of left field”, it’s “outta tha pahhhhk”!  ;D
Thank you, Sir!  ;D

Made another pizza last night.  As predicted, flavor was better on day 3 than it was on day 2.  The two things I'm happiest with are:

1) the oven spring I'm getting from the noodle-pull knead and

2) The eggshell texture and deep color I've been getting since I fiddled with the oven.

This dough was bread flour with no sugar, malt, or oil added; so I'm really happy with the browning and with the fact that I'm getting nice char without any burning.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: nirc on January 24, 2019, 09:00:15 PM
According to my calculations - famous last words - the multiplier to go from 14 inches to 16 inches is 1.306122448979592.  You should end up with about a 392-gram dough ball.  That's based on the formula for the surface area of a circle, πr2.  If you multiply the weight of each ingredient by that number when the moon is full, you should get a 16-inch pizza.

Trying to use the mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php# to convert your bakers % (14" recipe) into weights in ounces/grams (16" pie) and am having a little trouble.

Assuming I am inputting all info correctly (big assumption), the calculator is telling me the final dough ball should be 512 grams.

Perhaps I need to adjust TF or .......

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 25, 2019, 09:33:19 PM
Trying to use the mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php# to convert your bakers % (14" recipe) into weights in ounces/grams (16" pie) and am having a little trouble.

Assuming I am inputting all info correctly (big assumption), the calculator is telling me the final dough ball should be 512 grams.

Perhaps I need to adjust TF or .......
I don't change the size of my pies often because my home oven accommodates a 14-15-inch pie perfectly, and I'm happy with my current thickness.  My understanding is - and I may be mistaken if anyone wants to correct what I say - that the weight of the dough ball is pretty much directly proportional to the surface area.  The surface-area calculation is pi x the square of the radius.  Since pi is constant, we eliminate it and are left with r2.  My 14-inch pie has a 7-inch radius.  Square it and get 49.  Your 16-inch pie has an 8-inch radius, which yields 64.  So the weight ratio of 14-inch pie to a 16-inch pie should be 64/49, which in decimal form is 1.306122448979592.  My dough balls are around 310 grams; so multiply it by the magic number, and, were I shooting for a 16-inch pizza, I'd start with a 405-gram dough ball and see how it works out.  Does anyone look at this any differently?
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 25, 2019, 11:25:35 PM
One more this evening.  I went back and looked at the original uncropped photo that started this thread a decade ago.  I also looked at the version I uploaded.  We must have had much more restrictive file-size limitations back then because it's hard to see much, but nonetheless, at the time, it made an impression.  I just cropped the original to the same dimensions, though at much higher resolution, and I now submit it for review ten years later.  Given the amazing level of knowledge, skill, and experience that permeates the forum today, do you think this would have made even a ripple, much less a splash?  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: foreplease on January 25, 2019, 11:39:30 PM
Interesting question. My answer is: I should hope so.


Many of these things that endure over long periods of time are a credit to the generosity of and encouragement offered by the OP. You fit that description and humbly so. Thank you.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 25, 2019, 11:42:58 PM
Interesting question. My answer is: I should hope so.


Many of these things that endure over long periods of time are a credit to the generosity of and encouragement offered by the OP. You fit that description and humbly so. Thank you.
I couldn't hope for a nicer response.  Thank you.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on January 26, 2019, 12:12:08 AM
ABSOLUTELY! Love the look of that! Yours was one of the first formulas I used delving into that style! Still use it some today! 👍
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 26, 2019, 12:36:22 AM
Yes! Then. Now. Great is great!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on January 26, 2019, 01:18:24 AM
Does a bear $h*t in the woods?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 26, 2019, 07:19:40 AM
Now that would be a pizza topping I could live without  :o >:D :-D
Title: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 26, 2019, 11:29:42 AM
Now that would be a pizza topping I could live without  :o >:D :-D
No, really it’s very good.  The trick is to slice it thin and brown it in a little EVOO before it goes on the pie.  Caramelization is key!!! :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 26, 2019, 11:35:53 AM
I'll have to look more closely at your pies :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 26, 2019, 01:04:23 PM
I'll have to look more closely at your pies :-D
That's not sausage.  However, the bear was Italian!  :-D

P.S. - I do not recommend googling the term "Italian bear."
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 26, 2019, 01:41:02 PM
 :-D :-D   I'll avoid that search for my own protection. We're just boys..we shouldn't be looking at adult stuff LOL
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on January 26, 2019, 06:02:40 PM
Yes! Then. Now. Great is great!
ABSOLUTELY! Love the look of that! Yours was one of the first formulas I used delving into that style! Still use it some today! 👍
Does a bear $h*t in the woods?
Thanks for the affirmation, guys.  It's hard not to feel like a pretender sometimes when you're surrounded by all this expertise.  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on February 12, 2019, 04:37:24 PM
Shooting the glutenboy signal in the sky, we need some pizza pics!


Hope all is well
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 03, 2019, 02:34:54 PM
Shooting the glutenboy signal in the sky, we need some pizza pics!


Hope all is well

Better late than never!  Here's last night's effort:  a white pie, which I'll break down for you, along with a side order of funny story.

First of all, now that my oven is working consistently, I've had an opportunity to focus on the pizza.  One of my favorite diversions is pizza bianca ala GB.  It's a favorite when I cook for company or when I'm cooking at someone's home for a small party, but I'm not a fan of the usual white cream sauce.  Mine is always some blend of cheeses, always prominently featuring fresh mozzarella, some crumbled goat cheese, and spinach, seasoned with freshly minced garlic, rosemary, and thyme.  The thing is that without that cream sauce, the blanket of cheese can get a bit too thick for my taste, especially when I'm using someone else's oven, which, being cooler, lengthens the bake time.

Then, a few weeks ago, I was reading a thread under Ingredients and Resources, where someone was asking about the best retail fresh mozzarella.  The consensus was BelGioioso, and the person went out looking for it, but bought the burrata by mistake.  They said they liked the flavor, but complained that all of the liquid in the burrata had made their margherita soggy.  It was pointed out that they should've tried the dry fresh log, and life went on.  It did, however, get me thinking that the burrata might be the ideal substitute for the fresh mozzarella on my white pie.  It would bring all that moisture and creamy goodness without drastically altering the flavor profile.

So last night, I took a 4-day old dough out of the fridge, got my ingredients -- including my Costco-bought BelGioioso burrata -- ready, and waited for my dough to warm and for my oven to reach cooking temp.  A couple of hours later, I went eagerly into the kitchen and got to work.  I lightly floured my wooden peel and then dusted it with semolina.  I stretched my dough, which opened like a little champ, laid it out, and put on my base layer of grated provolone and asiago.  I sliced up the burrata as cleanly as I could.  It had a very nice fresh, milky flavor.  The extra fat from the injected cream makes it very rich and delicious.  I evenly distributed generous globs of it across the pie.  After sprinkling on some crumbled goat, I decided to go see how the oven was doing.  Imagine my dismay when I realized that the one thing I had forgotten to do a couple of hours earlier was turn it on.

So here I am with a stretched, mostly topped dough sitting on a wooden peel, with no oven to put it into.  After allowing myself a moment to marvel at my own foolishness, I decided to slide the peel onto an empty shelf in the fridge -- it just barely fit -- and hope for the best.  The oven was now on, but it needed at least an hour to preheat.  So I watched a little TV and went to the fridge to shake the peel every few minutes in an effort to keep the pizza mobile.  Much to my surprise, the rescue plan worked perfectly.  The pizza remained unstuck to the peel and didn't rise a bit in the fridge.  I finished topping it and slid it into the oven 70 minutes later as though nothing had happened.  My only thought is that had it been a pie with sauce, things might have gone very differently.  There were two notable and not necessarily negative effects from the delay and the refrigeration.  First, it yielded a very airy rim.  not necessarily perfect to look at, but crisp yet pliant and very tasty.  Second -- and I'm sorry I didn't get a picture of this, but I was very hungry by now -- perfect and very pronounced leoparding on the bottom of the pie.  We're talking rather large, very abundant, perfectly formed, brownish black spots, evenly distributed all over the bottom of the pie.  I don't know that I've even seen a picture of exactly what I got, but it was very pretty and tasted really good.

As far as my cheese experiment went, it was exactly what I had hoped for as well.  The thicker grated hard cheeses were beautifully blended with the white fresh mozzarella with just the right distribution of delicious rivulets of creamy whey.  I think I've come up with a unique and tasty take on a classic that -- and I can only speak for myself -- I'd go out of my way and pay good money for if I hadn't made it myself.

These aren't the best pics.  It was pretty late by the time all of the above had happened, and, as I said, I was a little too hungry to care.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 03, 2019, 03:00:48 PM
Great story and great looking pie, GB!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: CaptBob on March 03, 2019, 04:59:40 PM
Great story and great looking pie, GB!

 ^^^ ^^^!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on March 03, 2019, 05:51:15 PM
I love the story that's awesome. First thing I want to know is what kind of peel do you have because i want one!


I have heard that cold dough will get the "cat eyes" instead of lepording. I am assuming the more Aries crust is from the gluten relaxing while it was stretched out? Sounds like a horrible experience turned out great that is a very cool thing. The pie looks great. I have been thinking about making a pie and I have seen a few on here that use heavy cream mixed with the cheese and it looks like it's a good option I'm going to test out


Your pie looks very clean and perfect!


I look forward to the next adventure always a enjoyment reading your post
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 03, 2019, 07:03:39 PM
I love the story that's awesome. First thing I want to know is what kind of peel do you have because i want one!


I have heard that cold dough will get the "cat eyes" instead of lepording. I am assuming the more Aries crust is from the gluten relaxing while it was stretched out? Sounds like a horrible experience turned out great that is a very cool thing. The pie looks great. I have been thinking about making a pie and I have seen a few on here that use heavy cream mixed with the cheese and it looks like it's a good option I'm going to test out


Your pie looks very clean and perfect!


I look forward to the next adventure always a enjoyment reading your post
Thanks, Josh.  It’s a plain, unfinished 16-inch wooden peel that I got years ago from a local restaurant-supply house.  Care received consists of scraping and cleaning with vinegar after use and an occasional rubdown with mineral oil when needed.  I think I just got lucky that it was a sauceless pie with a nice spread of semolina under it.  What do the cat eyes look like?  This was very close to leoparding.  The spots were abundant, very round and about .5-.75 centimeters in diameter.  Pretty evenly spaced. They were dark, but not quite char black.  New thing to me.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 03, 2019, 07:16:33 PM
I tried every google search i could think of but was unable to find a single photo of a similar phenomenon.   I can only conclude that, outside of this group, not many people take pictures of the bottom of their pizza. ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on March 03, 2019, 10:45:51 PM
beautiful pie gb  :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Irishboy on March 03, 2019, 11:40:20 PM
This would be an example of cat eyes to me
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 05, 2019, 11:55:35 AM
is the % of idy yeast  .2828% or .1982% for gluten boys original recipe on the first page of this thread? He said .2828% for his formulation equaled about 1 teaspoon of idy yeast. Peter then mentioned by his formulation it should actually be .1982% I don't think gluten boy ever corrected it on his post so I am not sure which to go with for his recipe. I just want to make one dough ball for a 16" or 18" pie and follow gluten boys recipe as he intended it.

edit: It looks like some people tend to use the .2828%... this is more yeast than the Lehmann recipe, correct? I made two batches one with the .2828 and one just slightly less at .19 or .20... the difference is so small It might not even matter and I may have not even been so precise in my measurement of the yeast. Also, trying to adapt the workflow for a questionable black and decker food processor.  I am excited for this one, it will be the first one to cook on the steels I just got.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 12, 2019, 12:55:48 PM
is the % of idy yeast  .2828% or .1982% for gluten boys original recipe on the first page of this thread? He said .2828% for his formulation equaled about 1 teaspoon of idy yeast. Peter then mentioned by his formulation it should actually be .1982% I don't think gluten boy ever corrected it on his post so I am not sure which to go with for his recipe. I just want to make one dough ball for a 16" or 18" pie and follow gluten boys recipe as he intended it.

edit: It looks like some people tend to use the .2828%... this is more yeast than the Lehmann recipe, correct? I made two batches one with the .2828 and one just slightly less at .19 or .20... the difference is so small It might not even matter and I may have not even been so precise in my measurement of the yeast. Also, trying to adapt the workflow for a questionable black and decker food processor.  I am excited for this one, it will be the first one to cook on the steels I just got.

to update myself on the matter, .2828% is too much yeast, .19-.20% was good. Today I mixed a .1990% yeast batch by hand.

(Sorry for the bad picture and lack of them) the below is 5 days at .19-.20% ish yeast made in a food processor. I obviously need to bake longer, place my steel in a more optimal position in the oven and figure out my cheese to tomato ratio. (I was trying a new cheese blend and didn't have enough to split between a 16" and an 18"... poor planning) also new tomato sauce. Besides that, the dough was excellent and had a great texture. I had a hard time stretching the dough, had to be real gentle. I also used too much bench flour.
for leftovers I added a bit more cheese and re baked at 530 degrees for a few minutes and put it under the broiler a bit I should have taken more pictures of the leftovers because they were much better tasting and looking too.

Gluten boy: I know you mentioned when you make your dough by hand you use this stretching and twisting method. Does your hand mixing process differ from the process you use when using a machine? Do you still mix half the flour with all of the water and IDY first into a batter, rest, add half of the remaining flour after it is all mixed, again rest, salt, mix, add remaining flour and final mix? I am assuming the "final mix" would be kneading, if it was done by hand? Or do you use an entirely different process when hand mixing?

Thanks for the great dough! I am still trying to get the hang of it, as a newbie with no stand mixer.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 17, 2019, 02:22:14 PM
to update myself on the matter, .2828% is too much yeast, .19-.20% was good. Today I mixed a .1990% yeast batch by hand.

(Sorry for the bad picture and lack of them) the below is 5 days at .19-.20% ish yeast made in a food processor. I obviously need to bake longer, place my steel in a more optimal position in the oven and figure out my cheese to tomato ratio. (I was trying a new cheese blend and didn't have enough to split between a 16" and an 18"... poor planning) also new tomato sauce. Besides that, the dough was excellent and had a great texture. I had a hard time stretching the dough, had to be real gentle. I also used too much bench flour.
for leftovers I added a bit more cheese and re baked at 530 degrees for a few minutes and put it under the broiler a bit I should have taken more pictures of the leftovers because they were much better tasting and looking too.

Gluten boy: I know you mentioned when you make your dough by hand you use this stretching and twisting method. Does your hand mixing process differ from the process you use when using a machine? Do you still mix half the flour with all of the water and IDY first into a batter, rest, add half of the remaining flour after it is all mixed, again rest, salt, mix, add remaining flour and final mix? I am assuming the "final mix" would be kneading, if it was done by hand? Or do you use an entirely different process when hand mixing?

Thanks for the great dough! I am still trying to get the hang of it, as a newbie with no stand mixer.

Hey!  Sorry for the late reply.  Life is once again keeping me away from my beloved pizza.  Your pizza looks terrific!  It's been so long since I even attempted to weigh the yeast -- it's the one ingredient I measure by volume -- that I'd have to go back and figure out the answer to your query.  The lower number feels right though.  Lately I've been using ADY in the water instead of IDY in the dry ingredients.  My recent switch to hand kneading has been a revelation.  I have a KA Pro mixer with the lift bowl and spiral dough hook, which is much better than the smaller Artisan model which lifts from the top.  My conclusion is that it's still not enough mixer to beat hand kneading, not necessarily in terms of power but in terms of action.   What I'm doing these days is adding about half the flour to create what's best described as a batter.  Then I stir vigorously with a large metal frosting spreader (just 'cause it's easy to clean).   When I see structure forming as evidenced by my swirl marks remaining on the surface, I slowly incorporate more flour stirring vigorously with each amount added.  Sometimes I use the spreader to lift some of the forming dough out of the bowl to watch the gluten stretch.  As more flour gets added, it becomes more challenging to incorporate, but this is where I get my hands dirty (with dough, that is) and work it all in.  I still haven't added the salt, mind you.   Getting that last bit of flour homogenized takes a little work, but once it's in, I let it rest and absorb for a couple of minutes and start stretching.  When the dough begins to get smooth and extensible, I add the salt.  I just sprinkle it over the surface of the dough in a mixing bowl and continue kneading until it dissolves and incorporates.  One great thing about the hand-pull stretch is that it lets me really get a feel for the hydration.  If it doesn't pull smoothly without tearing, it's a little too dry.  If it's too sticky to handle, it's a little too wet.  Once I find the sweet spot, I just pull and twist until It's smooth, extensible, and maybe a little relaxed.   Then I let it rest and rise in the bowl covered with plastic.  At this point I have added another new step.  After the rise, I stretch the dough as if I were pulling a pizza -- not all the way to pizza thinness, but definitely to flat roundness.  I find that, for the first time, I can achieve actual windowpaning at this step, but I don't really pull it that thin.  Then I fold it in thirds in each direction, pull it back into a ball and let it rest and rise a little while again.  Now it's back to the regular technique.  After 30 minutes or so, I scale, ball, oil the surface of each dough ball, put them in the glad containers, and refrigerate until pizza day.  I'm getting some of the best texture and crumb this way that I've ever managed.  Glad you're happy with the dough!

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 17, 2019, 05:10:07 PM
Thank you so much for the reply and explaining all the good details. I will definitely do that for next week's pizza.

Here is a hand mixed dough ball of your recipe before it weny 5 days in a 30 is degree fridge. it came out really good and balled nicely and stretched/ shaped relatively easy. And then theres a few shots I took afterthe bake. I didn't get to use my preferred cheese blend but it still came out super tasty and texture was superb. I used normas sauce recipe which came out really good too, instead of wal mart crushed tomatoes and paste I used 6 in 1 and mutti paste. I will be using this sauce again FOR SURE.
Pepperoni was just okay, I cant find a good pep source.
Thanks again for the recipe and your updated hand mixing guide. I really love the crust and flavor you can get from it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 17, 2019, 11:25:21 PM
GB, I was also wondering what you do about bubbles in the crust when you are shaping the dough. Do4 you push all the air to the rim and shape the rim of your dough with bubbles intact or do you pop them?
A few more questions, when you talk about getting a feel for the hydration via stretch and twist, do you add a bit more water and or flour to get that "sweet spot" or do you just keep pulling and twisting until you achieve the desired consistency?
Also, how much do you let the dough rise after you incorporate the salt and stretch/ twist/ pull? Do you aim for double the size?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: gforgx on March 18, 2019, 10:17:15 AM
Made some interesting pie last night. I was looking for some new sauce on PizzaToday and chose this parsley sauce (https://www.pizzatoday.com/recipes/sauces/parsley-sauce/) which seems to be a soup sauce actually but it performed nicely on a pizza. The rest of the toppings were fresh onions (I've got some really neat small seedlings in my hands), low moisture mozz and also some brie before turning on the broiler and relocating the sheet to the top oven rack position.

The dough formulation was (for 2 balls, cold-fermented for 48 hours):

Flour (100%):    412.85 g  |  14.56 oz | 0.91 lbs
Water (72%):    297.25 g  |  10.49 oz | 0.66 lbs
IDY (0.5%):    2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Salt (2%):    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.48 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.83 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
Honey (2%):    8.26 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total (178.5%):   736.94 g | 25.99 oz | 1.62 lbs | TF = 0.09792
Single Ball:   368.47 g | 13 oz | 0.81 lbs

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 18, 2019, 10:49:19 PM
Nice looking pizza.  You should start a thread about it!!!  >:D
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: dutch_supreme on March 23, 2019, 02:19:15 PM
I'd do something like:
250g flour
152g water
0.7g IDY
6.25g salt


PS Make a double or triple batch. IMHO, it's no fun working with a smaller amount than that.
PSS We're neighbors! We should have a pizza summit sometime!

I used GlutenBoy's and ChrisGraff's simple dough recipe from the above reply.  48 CF, 1 Hour counter, 500 degree home oven for about 15 minutes.  I par-baked the skin for about 5 minuteson 18-inch screen, then moved to stone.  Ricotta/Parmesan on the bottom, mozz, mushroom and spinach on top, a little salt/pepper/oregano.  Turned out really good --- nice and crisp, simple flavors in the dough, I really liked it.

Thanks @Glutenboy and @Chrisgraff !!!!

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on March 23, 2019, 02:27:23 PM
I used GlutenBoy's and ChrisGraff's simple dough recipe from the above reply.  48 CF, 1 Hour counter, 500 degree home oven for about 15 minutes.  I par-baked the skin for about 5 minuteson 18-inch screen, then moved to stone.  Ricotta/Parmesan on the bottom, mozz, mushroom and spinach on top, a little salt/pepper/oregano.  Turned out really good --- nice and crisp, simple flavors in the dough, I really liked it.

Thanks @Glutenboy and @Chrisgraff !!!!
The pie looks great! Very New Haven!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 29, 2019, 07:14:32 PM
Just opened my first can of 6 in 1s.  I've never tasted tomatoes this sweet and flavorful right out of the can.  They're very mild, and I think they would benefit from some acid and salt to challenge that sweetness, but what great raw material!

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 30, 2019, 03:13:19 PM
I was just playing with some new ingredients.  I had been using First Street Bread flour from Smart and Final, and it turned out to be a very pleasant surprise.  On my way to work one day, I discovered that Smart and Final has a few scattered stores called Smart and Final Extra, which, as the name literally implies, carry some extra stuff.  I saw a 25-lb. bag of First Street High Gluten flour and thought I'd give it a try.  Didn't want to make any other changes for the sake of the experiment.  I used ADY for this dough.  Hydration is 65 percent.  I was going to go back to the KA Pro for the sake of gluten development, but, after a decade of faithful service, it decided not to turn on.  I hand kneaded with the noodle pull and twist method.  The dough was a bit stickier than it's bread-flour brother, but it really responded well to this method, quickly becoming smooth and extensible.  I probably worked it, combining the pull with literal stretch and folds, for 30-45 minutes.  My kitchen was chilly, and I had dinner plans so it got a nice, long counter rise - around 5 or 6 hours.  I'll say it tripled by the time I got home, even with the low yeast.  The consistency when I balled it was very smooth and far less sticky - easy to handle.  I balled it, oiled it, and refrigerated it.   This pie was made after 48 hours in the cooler.  I used the 6 in 1 tomatoes.  The sweetness was amazing.  I decided to play on it with a pinch of citric acid, which I keep on hand.  I know a lot of you guys don't like it, but I can't think of a better way to balance the sweetness without altering other aspects of the tomato flavor, which I didn't want to do.  I didn't cook the tomatoes for the same reason, but I browned some garlic and crushed red pepper in a little EVOO and added them to the mix, alone with a little sea salt.  They had loaves of LMWM mozzarella at the Italian deli I just found.  They were positioned so I couldn't read the packaging.  I was hoping for Grande, but they were Bellissimo, a brand about which I've heard nothing I can remember.  I bought a pound.  It's tasty, pretty creamy -- not as buttery as Grande -- and a little on the salty side, but better than a pound ball from the supermarket.  I grated it and used it on top of a dusting of Reggiano and Pecorino in combination with some Belgioioso dry fresh mozzarella.  I also bought a pound of their house made mild Italian sausage, so some of that went on as well.  Not too impressed with the flavor of the sausage.  Didn't hurt anything, but pretty bland.

I topped the pie with some Sicilian oregano, which I also picked up.  This was fantastic and also the answer to a question I've had my entire pizzamaking life.  When I was a kid in New Jersey, most of the pizzamakers I watched would finish off a pie by sprinkling a pinch of oregano over it before it went into the oven.  It added a very distinctive flavor.  I make my first homemade pizza at the age of eleven, and for years I sprinkled oregano on them, looking for that element.  It definitely added something, and it tasted good, but it wasn't quite the taste I was remembering, and I always wondered why.  I figured I was doing something else wrong.  Eventually I got steered to fresh basil, which is very tasty in it's own right, and just wrote off the oregano issue to faulty memory.  Then Sicilian oregano started to become a thing here on the forum.  I finally got around to reading about it here and elsewhere.  It's interesting and a little surprising that the North/South-American varieties of oregano are not just different strains from the Mediterranean varieties but entirely different, unrelated plants with comparable flavor profiles.  Sure enough, that was the answer to my long-standing question.  First bite brought back memories.  It's a far more fragrant herb with a lot of subtle notes. 

Anyway, I finished off with a restrained (for me) pour of EVOO, and into the oven.  Highlights:  The dough handled very well as expected.  Easy to open but strong enough to hang on one hand while I took care of something.  Delicate crisp on the outside, tender chew on the inside.  Didn't brown as richly as the bread flour I'd been using.  I'll bet a couple of more days in the fridge will add a lot.  The Bellissimo cheese was okay.  Not sure it added anything amazing to the fresh cheese.  The sausage fell under "don't need to try it again."  The 6 in 1's are a winner.  Great flavor and good consistency to put on the pie right from the can.  Sicilian oregano is the best discovery.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on April 30, 2019, 03:48:07 PM
GB, I was also wondering what you do about bubbles in the crust when you are shaping the dough. Do4 you push all the air to the rim and shape the rim of your dough with bubbles intact or do you pop them?
A few more questions, when you talk about getting a feel for the hydration via stretch and twist, do you add a bit more water and or flour to get that "sweet spot" or do you just keep pulling and twisting until you achieve the desired consistency?
Also, how much do you let the dough rise after you incorporate the salt and stretch/ twist/ pull? Do you aim for double the size?
Thanks!

Sorry, I must've missed this.  I don't flatten the rim at all.  The only time I'd pop a bubble - and even then, I'd do it gently - is either if it's not near the edge or if it is on the edge but is protruding.  Usually I don't have much or any air in the rim while I'm stretching.  The bubbles form, I think, simply because I don't flatten the rim or create one artificially by pressing while I stretch.

As far as the hydration goes, I try to get it right in the initial formula, and I've gotten pretty good at that, but nothing's perfect, especially when you're trying out a new flour.  If the dough is not supple, I'll eventually put it back in the bowl and add water a few measured grams at a time until it feels right.  If it stays so sticky that I can't work it, same goes for flour.

Rising is a good question.  Double is about what I usually go for, though it's hard to really measure since the bowl tapers at the bottom.  Last batch, I went out to dinner while it rose, and I'd say it probably tripled.  Lots of people skip the counter rise and go right into the cooler, but I've tried it and wasn't happy.  I can't say exactly what it does or doesn't do, but that counter time definitely changes the texture of the dough.  In my mind, beyond the chemistry, it provides an even, internal stretch that you can't get by kneading.  Then again, maybe I'm making that up!!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 01, 2019, 01:55:10 PM
Here's the same dough at three days old.  I eliminated the low-moisture mozzarella and went with all BelGioioso.  It's better this way.  I keep wanting to find a way to like LM mozzarella as much or better on my pizzas, but it never happens.  Maybe my oven isn't hot enough to make the most of it, but I'm always disappointed, even when I've used Grande whole milk.  Same goes for oregano vs. fresh basil.  Basil wins.  With my setup, these ingredients just seem to work.  The sausage, again, didn't add much to the proceedings, but even that tasted better in this combo.  The 6-in-1's are great.  They're definitely the star addition to my topping repertoire from this experiment.  As far as this new flour goes, the dough really matured from day 2 to day 3.  The flavor was really developed.  After 90 minutes on the counter, it was also very extensible.  I stretched a 307-gram dough ball to almost 16 inches.  That's pushing it even though it never even thought about tearing.  I think it pulled back a bit in the oven, coming in around 15.  My experience with HG flours is that they brown easily.  This one, not so much.  The bread flour I've been using was much quicker to darken.  I left this one in the oven at full steam for probably 10 minutes, and it wasn't a moment too long.  A bit of char on the bottom, which I love, but not burned a bit.  Actually it had a bit more flop than I like, but only toward the very middle.  Because of the long bake, though, it was not at all doughy or underdone.  I'm wondering if the extra long counter rise before balling had any impact on the extensibility and texture.

I'd love to know what you guys think about the 6-in1's, particularly the addition of a pinch of citric acid, just because some here find it objectionable and I'd like to hear why.  From my perspective, the hardest things to find in a can of tomatoes are, first, the desired natural flavor/fragrance notes that have nothing to do with sweetness or acidity and, second, natural sweetness.  On the other hand, I've tasted plenty of canned tomatoes with plenty of acidity.   The 6-in-1's seemed to me to have those hard-to-find notes of flavor and sweetness.  That pinch of citric acid really brought those qualities to life for me like a little lemon juice does for an apple-pie filling.  I added a little salt as well, but I don't think I've ever needed less.  The garlic and red pepper are just my thing because I like them.

Here's the product
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 01, 2019, 03:42:37 PM
Looks great, GB! I love 6 in 1's too...I sometimes buzz them but that's about it. Last night I used some straight out of the can, sparingly and  top of Grande/cheddar blend, and with fresh mozz  on top. Really good flavor blend. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 01, 2019, 05:57:09 PM
Looks great, GB! I love 6 in 1's too...I sometimes buzz them but that's about it. Last night I used some straight out of the can, sparingly and  top of Grande/cheddar blend, and with fresh mozz  on top. Really good flavor blend.
I went away for a while, JPB, and you took everything to the next level.  You're working in Mozza/Bianco territory.  So about my question, not necessarily as it relates to the 6-in-1's, where do you stand on the question of adding a little acidity to tomatoes?  I think that, with the style you've moved into, a milder, sweeter tomato flavor might be exactly what you're looking for, but for the flavor of a NY/New Haven-style pie, would you consider adding either citric acid or malic acid or some variety of vinegar to wake them up?  I decided to try citric acid because it's the most abundant natural acid in tomatoes.  I find that when I use it judiciously, it brings out the other flavors without sacrificing character.  I think any vinegar has too strong a flavor of its own to manage that.

Again, that's a beautiful pie.

- GB
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 01, 2019, 06:07:53 PM
Thank you, GB...I'm blushing..or maybe that's some tomato sauce on my face ;D  Reality is that I have so much to learn. I spend a lot of time in Dough Doc's waiting room, catching up on old copies of National Geographic  :-D


Acid..yes, I think so. I haven't tried citric acid but I definitely see your point. The 6 in 1's are quite sweet and that wouldn't work for every pie. I'm using somewhat less tomato these days since I'm usually putting cheese down first and the tomato flavor is noted at first bite. I've been switching between these and Sclafanis which aren't quite as sweet,


That said, while from NJ, I'm no tomato expert
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on May 01, 2019, 06:55:14 PM
Looks great, GB! I love 6 in 1's too...I sometimes buzz them but that's about it. Last night I used some straight out of the can, sparingly and  top of Grande/cheddar blend, and with fresh mozz  on top. Really good flavor blend.

Pretty pie as always Bill and I like that you are sneaking a little cheddar in there!    Nice restraint on that sauce too!   You probably taste and savor it even more with less of it - if that makes sense.  ???
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: PizzaJerk on May 01, 2019, 08:25:02 PM
I like to blend the 6in1 with Alta Cucinas. That gives just a bit of the brightness it needs in my mind. I do love the 6in1 though, even better than tomato magic. Either way I always eat some straight from the can, first and foremost to make sure they are their usual self and to see if I need to alter the sauce recipe to make up for any shortcomings. Also, I just like to eat them. I'm weird and eat Bonta from the can too.

JPB, I have found the Sclafani's to be a bit on the seedy side. They taste good but I recall just recently that I took a spoonful from the can and was caught by surprise by that. Have you found that to be true?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 01, 2019, 10:35:16 PM
I like to blend the 6in1 with Alta Cucinas. That gives just a bit of the brightness it needs in my mind. I do love the 6in1 though, even better than tomato magic. Either way I always eat some straight from the can, first and foremost to make sure they are their usual self and to see if I need to alter the sauce recipe to make up for any shortcomings. Also, I just like to eat them. I'm weird and eat Bonta from the can too.

JPB, I have found the Sclafani's to be a bit on the seedy side. They taste good but I recall just recently that I took a spoonful from the can and was caught by surprise by that. Have you found that to be true?
Thank you, GB...I'm blushing..or maybe that's some tomato sauce on my face ;D  Reality is that I have so much to learn. I spend a lot of time in Dough Doc's waiting room, catching up on old copies of National Geographic  :-D

Acid..yes, I think so. I haven't tried citric acid but I definitely see your point. The 6 in 1's are quite sweet and that wouldn't work for every pie. I'm using somewhat less tomato these days since I'm usually putting cheese down first and the tomato flavor is noted at first bite. I've been switching between these and Sclafanis which aren't quite as sweet,


That said, while from NJ, I'm no tomato expert

We three obviously know quality tomatoes.   Sclafani and 6-in-1 are my hands down favorite at the moment.  I also want to try the Jersey Fresh, but my only source at the moment (Amazon) is by the case.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on May 01, 2019, 10:52:56 PM
I love Sclafani but don't think I've tried the 6 in 1, it's on my list!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 01, 2019, 11:02:54 PM
Thanks Jeff! Yes, I think the tomatoes make an impact greater than their quantity because they're out front. Chau and I talked about that recently. He's become a fan of cheese down first


PJ, yes, kind of seedy, so I've been putting my Sclafani through a colander ( in lieu of food mill) When I've sampled the part left behind, I was glad it was...a pretty good amount of bitter skin and seeds. .. removing them is a definite improvement


 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Jackitup on May 01, 2019, 11:14:15 PM
Also a fan of cheese down first, but still go back and forth. Completely changes the pie!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on May 02, 2019, 12:50:55 AM
Also a fan of cheese down first, but still go back and forth. Completely changes the pie!

I go back and forth too.  Both are equally great and totally different! 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GumbaWill on May 02, 2019, 04:53:42 PM
"T" minus 24 hours till pizza Friday!
72hr Sourdough Pizza Skin

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: invertedisdead on May 03, 2019, 03:46:43 PM
Loved reading these last few posts of yours GB! I've been on the fence about trying that oregano but you totally sold me. I started re-visiting a pizzeria near by who tops the pies with oregano, adds such a great "pizza" flavor to the pie, I can never replicate it at home no matter how much I use or which shaker I try. It usually just seems bitter, not hearty and flavorful like the pizzeria.

I just recently found a local source for 6-in-1s; I think they're great. Went through a case of Sclafani crushed and wasn't really a fan, maybe a bad crop. I preferred the Tuttorosso crushed. The San Benito SM style whole peeled with basil from Smart & Final are pretty good for the price is you get a good can. I think they are $3.49 for a #10 can.

I just got some Saputo Gold mozzarella the other day after not using that in a while - so much better than everything else I've used lately. Nice flavor and great performance; I was trying to use organic mozzarella but it kept turning into a big scab. I'm getting Saputo (again) at small Mexican grocery store so you never know where you'll find some of this stuff. I just got some Parmesan Reggianito from the same place as well - apparently it's a small wheeled Argentinian version of the King of Cheeses. But since it was actually sliced fresh off the wheel it had incredible flavor, tons of those grainy, aged, flavor crystals: way better than any of the pre-packaged Reggiano wedges I've been getting from other stores. Half the price of Reggiano to boot!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: quietdesperation on May 04, 2019, 01:25:11 AM
I like 6 in 1 but trader joe's is 35 mins while all our local grocery stores carry scalfani. I have found a lot of variation in the sweetness of scalfani and sometimes add a pinch of sugar (after removing the skins and seeds). I also add oregano, a pinch of sea salt and grate a little hard cheese into the sauce.

gb, our pies are starting to look a little alike! Which is yours and which is mine?  :)

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 04, 2019, 03:41:39 PM
Loved reading these last few posts of yours GB! I've been on the fence about trying that oregano but you totally sold me. I started re-visiting a pizzeria near by who tops the pies with oregano, adds such a great "pizza" flavor to the pie, I can never replicate it at home no matter how much I use or which shaker I try. It usually just seems bitter, not hearty and flavorful like the pizzeria.

I just recently found a local source for 6-in-1s; I think they're great. Went through a case of Sclafani crushed and wasn't really a fan, maybe a bad crop. I preferred the Tuttorosso crushed. The San Benito SM style whole peeled with basil from Smart & Final are pretty good for the price is you get a good can. I think they are $3.49 for a #10 can.

I just got some Saputo Gold mozzarella the other day after not using that in a while - so much better than everything else I've used lately. Nice flavor and great performance; I was trying to use organic mozzarella but it kept turning into a big scab. I'm getting Saputo (again) at small Mexican grocery store so you never know where you'll find some of this stuff. I just got some Parmesan Reggianito from the same place as well - apparently it's a small wheeled Argentinian version of the King of Cheeses. But since it was actually sliced fresh off the wheel it had incredible flavor, tons of those grainy, aged, flavor crystals: way better than any of the pre-packaged Reggiano wedges I've been getting from other stores. Half the price of Reggiano to boot!

Yes!  Definitely get some Sicilian oregano.  Whether it's what you're looking for or not, you'll definitely taste the difference.  I think I tried Reggianito once a long time ago.  I can't remember anything about my reaction though.  Next time I see it, I'll pick some up.

I like 6 in 1 but trader joe's is 35 mins while all our local grocery stores carry scalfani. I have found a lot of variation in the sweetness of scalfani and sometimes add a pinch of sugar (after removing the skins and seeds). I also add oregano, a pinch of sea salt and grate a little hard cheese into the sauce.

gb, our pies are starting to look a little alike! Which is yours and which is mine?  :)



That's uncanny, QD.  Even the cheese melt is a dead ringer!  I hope it was good eating!  ;D

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Kreetak on May 14, 2019, 03:02:30 PM
I used GlutenBoy's and ChrisGraff's simple dough recipe from the above reply.  48 CF, 1 Hour counter, 500 degree home oven for about 15 minutes.  I par-baked the skin for about 5 minuteson 18-inch screen, then moved to stone.  Ricotta/Parmesan on the bottom, mozz, mushroom and spinach on top, a little salt/pepper/oregano.  Turned out really good --- nice and crisp, simple flavors in the dough, I really liked it.

Thanks @Glutenboy and @Chrisgraff !!!!

Hello Dutch!
I would like to replicate your pizza! Is it possible to know the TF? Because I will use 2 balls for 12". And I want to calculate the all percentages :P

This pizza it's amazing  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: zole2112 on May 14, 2019, 03:57:26 PM
I made a Glutenboy crust recipe on Sunday. I used 100% Bouncer flour I got at Gordon's Food Service that I want to use up, it actually turned out excellent! This crust stretched the best of any I have ever made, 24 hours in the fridge, 2 - 10 second bursts in the microwave and I stretched it thin all the way to the edges.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: Glutenboy on May 14, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
I made a Glutenboy crust recipe on Sunday. I used 100% Bouncer flour I got at Gordon's Food Service that I want to use up, it actually turned out excellent! This crust stretched the best of any I have ever made, 24 hours in the fridge, 2 - 10 second bursts in the microwave and I stretched it thin all the way to the edges.

Just want to start by saying that it looks delicious, but it doesn't look like many I've seen from my dough.  Very thin and almost a cracker-crust consistency.  How did you manage that?  I'm guessing maybe you rolled out the dough before stretching?  Nice variation!

- GB  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: jvp123 on May 14, 2019, 09:06:17 PM
Just want to start by saying that it looks delicious, but it doesn't look like many I've seen from my dough.  Very thin and almost a cracker-crust consistency.  How did you manage that?  I'm guessing maybe you rolled out the dough before stretching?  Nice variation!

- GB  :chef:

yeah I dig it! Nice work!  :chef:   Curious if you used a rolling pin and what was the H20 hydration% and oil %?  Oh and also if you would, oven temp and time. Thx! ... and again nice pizza!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: zole2112 on May 16, 2019, 10:22:54 AM
yeah I dig it! Nice work!  :chef:   Curious if you used a rolling pin and what was the H20 hydration% and oil %?  Oh and also if you would, oven temp and time. Thx! ... and again nice pizza!
Thanks guys! Glutenboy, I've made your recipes before but never have I gotten this exact result either. Usually it looks more like the other pics I've seen.

When I get home I will send the specifics on the recipe and the process. It was the best stretching crust I have ever made, I felt like I reached Nirvana when I was stretching it lol. I can tell you that I didn't roll it at all. I made the one in the picture after 24 hrs in the fridge and I made a second after 72 hours and it was awesome as well. One thing I did that may have contributed to the crackery crust (which was unexpected) was to coat the pan with EVOO and place the pan on my steel, normally it goes directly from my peel onto my steel or my Kiln shelf.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: zole2112 on May 18, 2019, 02:04:52 PM
Ok, here is the recipe (I made it 3x these quantities):

334.53 g Flour - the recipe called for Sir Lancelot but I tried an alternative I got at Gordon Food Services, Bouncer with 4g Protein
218.3 g water - I used tap
0.75 g IDY
4.19 g Salt
3.37 g EVOO

Mixed all water, 1/2 of the flour and all of the yeast in my Kitchenaid on Stir (1) with paddle until mixed
Rested 2 min
Added 1/2 of remaining flour and mixed with dough hook on Stir (1) and Low (2) for 2 min (appx 1 min at each setting, Stir/Low/Stir)
Rested 2 min
Added remaining flour, salt, EVOO and mixed with dough hook for 2 min on Low (1)
Kneaded in Kitchenaid for 7 min - appx 5 min on Low (1) and 5 min on Low (2) alternating
Bulk rise on counter 1.5 hours, it was about 67 in my house at the time
Poured dough out and split into 6 pieces appx 290 g each.
Balled each and placed in oiled containers
Refrigerated

Also, I took the dough right out of the fridge and hit it with 2 10 second bursts in the microwave to warm it slightly.

It was pretty easy to stretch the dough, I had full 14" rounds spreading on the counter with flour and then stretching draped over my knuckles.

Top and bake

I made the first pizza after 24 hours in the fridge, thats the one I posted pics of. I then made another after 72 hours with results pretty much the same as the first. I got busy the rest of the week and I am going to par bake the other 4 today, so that is about 166 hours, I'll see how they turn out.

I think the 2 things that may have created the crackery crust are:
1) Bulk rise and then balling, I was reading this in a Re-balling thread and I use that for my Tartine bread when I make that,
2) baking on my pan coated with EVOO on the pan and baked it with the pan on the steel before transferring it directly to the steel after about 5 min, steel at appx 475-500 F, for the first 4 or 5 min. Oven is set at 550 F and I start baking after the steel on the lowest rack level passes 450 F

I finish it on the highest level shelf to finish the top of the pizza.

That's it.

Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: zole2112 on May 18, 2019, 03:19:29 PM
166 hour ferment in fridge, it's delicious although I like the 72 hour a bit better.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GumbaWill on May 18, 2019, 05:56:52 PM
Fresh mozzarella, cooked crumbled hot Italian sausage, fire roasted red peppers and parmigiano reggiano.
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GumbaWill on May 22, 2019, 03:27:38 PM
Pizza Wednesday...05/22/19
Sourdough / 10% WHOLE GRAIN
N.Y. style: Sausage, pepperoni and fire roasted red peppers.
So it begins....80hrs. cold ferment, 11/2 hr. bench rest prior to stretch.


 
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GumbaWill on May 22, 2019, 05:57:32 PM
I will put this pie up against any pie in Manhattan, bar none!
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 23, 2019, 05:49:40 AM
Nice pies. Are those gluten boy formulas?
Title: Re: Tonight's Pie
Post by: GumbaWill on May 23, 2019, 06:52:41 AM
No, my formula is derived from a Lehmann style dough.