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Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 166475 times)

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Offline fdmason

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #380 on: August 18, 2017, 02:44:00 PM »
Keep in mind that the chart is to help you find a starting point. Several iterations of testing and tweaking may be necessary. That being said, it tends to work remarkably well across a wide range of scenarios. Part of that is because of the data it's built on. It effectively averages the scenarios. Unless what you are doing is fairly uncommon, you may find that the table works pretty well without trying to incorporate all the nuances of minor temperature changes.

If you think the temperature changes are significant, you can use the chart to account for them. See the instructions here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg230690#msg230690

Very cool I never saw those examples before and it helps alot thank you!

One more possibly dumb question that i think i know the answer to but perhaps you can point me to the science behind it. In theory these doughs are all ready to bake at their respective time temps and yeast quantities. As far as taste....how will they differ and are there sweet spots? On the forum it seems that the 36-48 hour RT seems to be popular, with RT being in the mid 60s to possibly low 70s. But how does that taste compare to an 85 degree 3 hour dough?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #381 on: August 18, 2017, 02:57:57 PM »
One more possibly dumb question that i think i know the answer to but perhaps you can point me to the science behind it.

I assembled what I've been able to collect on the science here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #382 on: September 21, 2017, 11:25:42 PM »
I'm just curious, what is the water temperature average being used to mix these doughs? And is the chart starting from the finish of the mix, the bulk ferment stage, or when the dough is balled?

I've actually never used this chart, but now that I am getting into some extended fermentation and looking to move to room temp and hold at room temp it should be a huge help.

Offline jsaras

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #383 on: September 21, 2017, 11:31:57 PM »
I'm just curious, what is the water temperature average being used to mix these doughs? And is the chart starting from the finish of the mix, the bulk ferment stage, or when the dough is balled?

I've actually never used this chart, but now that I am getting into some extended fermentation and looking to move to room temp and hold at room temp it should be a huge help.

I'm sure that Craig will chime in, but I've been using subtracting the starting flour temperature in Fahrenheit from the number 130 to determine what the starting water temperature should be.   This results in the finished dough being just a bit cooler than room temperature after it's been mixed.  I'd rather have a slow fermentation that I can speed up a bit by warming it up at the end rather than the opposite scenario. 
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Offline HansB

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #384 on: September 22, 2017, 08:04:54 AM »
I'm just curious, what is the water temperature average being used to mix these doughs? And is the chart starting from the finish of the mix, the bulk ferment stage, or when the dough is balled?

I've actually never used this chart, but now that I am getting into some extended fermentation and looking to move to room temp and hold at room temp it should be a huge help.

I think the chart is a very good guide to use as a starting point as there are so many variables. I like a well fermented dough so for the numbers to work for me I use two to three times the percentage of IDY shown on the chart for doughs fermented for 24 hours or less.
Hans

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #385 on: September 22, 2017, 09:02:12 AM »
The chart is a big average. I fit a set of equations to a sample of data comprised of many different formulas and workflows. So, like hans said, it's a starting point, but also like Jonas indicated, it can be all things to all people.  Once you find the little tweaks that make it work for you it's pretty accurate. For me, I find that if it go just a bit more than it tells me - not even a full column to the right - it almost always works perfectly. For NP, I start with cold water, but for anything else, I just use tap water at whatever temperature comes out.
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Offline rdbedwards

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #386 on: September 29, 2017, 05:59:56 PM »
Apologies if this has been answered before (my search yielded no applicable result), but I've noticed a difference in my dough temperature compared to ambient room temperature, no doubt due to the heat byproduct of fermentation.  Is the target temp in the chart that Craig developed the room temperature or that of the dough itself?  Or is it not enough of a difference to matter?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #387 on: September 29, 2017, 06:07:08 PM »
Apologies if this has been answered before (my search yielded no applicable result), but I've noticed a difference in my dough temperature compared to ambient room temperature, no doubt due to the heat byproduct of fermentation.  Is the target temp in the chart that Craig developed the room temperature or that of the dough itself?  Or is it not enough of a difference to matter?

The target temp is the room temp - not the dough. For very large batches in bulk, the mass effect may need to be considered and the time adjusted down or yeast adjusted up a bit.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Andreas_1972

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #388 on: November 01, 2017, 04:24:17 PM »
Hi Craig,

I've made some vids showing the dough rising in a scaled bottle over time. Perhaps you're interested in?

Regards, Andreas

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #389 on: November 01, 2017, 05:08:49 PM »
I think it would be interesting to watch, and you're welcome to post it here.
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Offline Andreas_1972

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #390 on: November 01, 2017, 05:34:50 PM »
I'm not allowed to post videos:

An Error Has Occurred!
OUTPUT.mp4.
You cannot upload that type of file. The only allowed extensions are jpg,jpeg,gif,png.


Regards, Andreas

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #391 on: November 01, 2017, 05:35:32 PM »
You'd have to upload it you youtube and post a link.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Andreas_1972

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #392 on: November 01, 2017, 05:43:48 PM »
You can view it for 48h at https://expirebox.com/download/bb4156ada342975959c61d02b196db68.html
It shows the fermentation of a dough with 60% hydration and 0,2% CY (200g flour, 120g water, 0.4g yeast)

Regards, Andreas

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #393 on: November 01, 2017, 05:56:59 PM »
What was the temperature?
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Offline Andreas_1972

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #394 on: November 01, 2017, 06:05:40 PM »
You can see the measured temperature in the video it's in C (round 22C)

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Offline Andreas_1972

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #395 on: November 01, 2017, 06:09:20 PM »
I'll take similar videos for 1% yeast, raisin water and sourdough fermentation, too.

Regards, Andreas

Offline joe1515

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #396 on: December 30, 2017, 02:48:47 PM »
Latest revision. This seems to be more in line with cold fermentation observations.

I am curious why the chart only goes to 55 hours when you are fermenting at 37 F (basically in the fridge)?  I would l love to see 48, 24, 17, etc...

Joe

Offline joe1515

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #397 on: December 31, 2017, 09:05:06 AM »
Another stupid question, why is the chart not in 24 hour time periods for the longer times.   For example why is there no 24,48, or even 96 hour proof for 37 degrees?

Thanks,

Joe

Offline bifi85

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #398 on: January 04, 2018, 06:57:05 PM »
Quote
(TXCraig1 August 07, 2013): If I get some feedback, I can easily adjust both the baseline and the growth model.
Ganzle model:
growth rate at temperature T = a ∙ xb ∙ e-c∙x

x = Tmax - T

Tmax is the maximum temperature at which the yeast will grow.

In the model right now,

Tmax = 45 C
a= 0.02645608
b= 2.037020784
c= -0.198964236

Are the numbers from August 2013 still correct? Do you have a spread sheet aka Yeast Calculator (even so it is a rule-of-thumb estimate, a very good one)?

I want to focus more on C and CY in the first place.  48h rise on for me possible and exact C-values.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 08:36:16 PM by bifi85 »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #399 on: January 10, 2018, 09:47:01 AM »
Another stupid question, why is the chart not in 24 hour time periods for the longer times.   For example why is there no 24,48, or even 96 hour proof for 37 degrees?

Here is the table pushed out to 1% IDY / 3% CY:
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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