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Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 166466 times)

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Offline stzicuris

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Hello guys first of all thks to craig for his tabl is really useful.

If i understood properly this table for room temp ferment is more efficient than for sold ferment, isnt it?
more data were available for the table right?, cause craig use room temperature ferment.right?
Even if i understood that it was only a starting point.
Thanks in advance for you fast reply.

Offline TXCraig1

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I'm not sure I understand what your asking?

The reason it's harder to model cold fermentation scenarios is because at refrigerator temperatures, the margins of error get huge. Even relatively large changes in time can result in small changes in total fermentation.
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Offline stzicuris

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I was wondering  which temperature range represented in the table are more trustfull.
I understsand now that the refrigerate temperature harder to predict properly.

Offline TXCraig1

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I was wondering  which temperature range represented in the table are more trustfull.
I understsand now that the refrigerate temperature harder to predict properly.

It's not that refrigeration temperature fermentations are hard to predict, actually it's quite easy. The difficulty is that the range of time that can work may be huge. Two people could make the same dough with the same amount of yeast and ferment it at the same temperature and have the time be more than 24 hours different. Maybe a lot more.

The table can only give you a single number - it's best guess from a statistical analysis of as much data as I could gather. Temperatures in the 60-80F range will be the most "accurate" because I have more data in that range and because the range of solutions is tighter. That being said, there are so many variables not controlled in the model, it's only intended to be a starting point and several iterations of testing and tweaking should be expected.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline vtsteve

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It's been pretty close for me at 36-37F.  :)
In grams we trust.
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Offline stzicuris

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hello guys i found this from a pizzeria at Naples but the yeast use is really far from the predicted table why?

 "HOW TO MAKE THE REAL NEAPOLITAN PIZZA DOUGH according to the disciplinary of VPN "real pizza napoletana "
 
------------RECIPE.
10l. water room temperature
0.35 oz. fresh yeast
17oz. sea salt
37 pounds flour 00
------- MAKE DOUGH
1.Mix water and yeast add 10% of the flour, add the sea salt and let it melted with the mix for 5 minutes, add the rest of the flour mix everything for 20 minutes
2.Put it in two container or one for about 30 minutes with cover.
3.Make dough balls 9oz each
4. Let it fermented for 8-10 hours at room temperature 18C.
----------tips .
if you don't use it just put it in the fridge and when you are going to use it take it out 1 hour before, it will be good for 3-4 days in the fridge
enjoy. "

at this quantity of yest 0.05% the table predicted 47-50 hours but for the pizzeria was ready at 10hours.
I dont understand.
thx for your reply

Offline TXCraig1

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hello guys i found this from a pizzeria at Naples but the yeast use is really far from the predicted table why?
"HOW TO MAKE THE REAL NEAPOLITAN PIZZA DOUGH according to the disciplinary of VPN "real pizza napoletana "
.
.
.

at this quantity of yest 0.05% the table predicted 47-50 hours but for the pizzeria was ready at 10hours.
I dont understand.
thx for your reply

It's the person who made that formula who doesn't understand. It won't work. First of all, it's not the recipe from the "disciplinary of VPN." I've lost count of how many recipes I've seen claiming to be the VPN recipe.  The actual VPN formula calls for ~0.17% CY and 6-8 hours fermentation at 25C which is perfectly in line with the table.

http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/disciplinare%202008%20UK.pdf
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32010R0097&from=EN
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline vtsteve

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Never trust a formula that mixes liters, pounds and oz... it's pretty close to 10x the VPN that Craig posted, if you use 35g of yeast vs. .35 oz.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 12:23:00 PM by vtsteve »
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #428 on: August 14, 2018, 11:00:55 PM »
Wanted to chime in on this chart -

I didn't use it when developing my dough recipe, but I use about 0.11% ADY for a 50lb bag of flour. This comes out to 25g. Most of the time, my room temp has been around 70 to 71 and it pretty much matches right up with the closest comparison (0.126%) at right around 6 hours.

This is a direct method, with no bulk (just a short rest,) cut scale and ball. I'm calling 6 hours from the time the dough is balled in trays to when it can be used (and we have used after 6 hours.)

That being said, the pies bake up pretty crisp and deeply caramel colored - and I prefer fridging the dough at that point and using the next day.

I think the gluten degrades a little bit as it sits cold, and I get a little more color variation. I wonder if there's a way to accomplish that at room temp?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #429 on: August 15, 2018, 09:07:45 AM »
Wanted to chime in on this chart -

I didn't use it when developing my dough recipe, but I use about 0.11% ADY for a 50lb bag of flour. This comes out to 25g. Most of the time, my room temp has been around 70 to 71 and it pretty much matches right up with the closest comparison (0.126%) at right around 6 hours.

This is a direct method, with no bulk (just a short rest,) cut scale and ball. I'm calling 6 hours from the time the dough is balled in trays to when it can be used (and we have used after 6 hours.)

That being said, the pies bake up pretty crisp and deeply caramel colored - and I prefer fridging the dough at that point and using the next day.

I think the gluten degrades a little bit as it sits cold, and I get a little more color variation. I wonder if there's a way to accomplish that at room temp?

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking? Are you looking to find a yeast quantity that will let you do 18-24 hours at room temp? If so, I think that should be fairly straightforward to accomplish.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #430 on: August 15, 2018, 03:43:20 PM »
Iím just confirming the accuracy of the chart for fully fermented dough.

However, I think there is something else at play when using refrigeration that isnít accurately reflected in the chart what considering a fully fermented dough. I get changes in color and texture with a pause in the fridge I donít get at room temp - and I wonder if that is possible to accomplish at room temp.

Iím no scientist but working with the dough daily I see the changes

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking? Are you looking to find a yeast quantity that will let you do 18-24 hours at room temp? If so, I think that should be fairly straightforward to accomplish.

Offline Sebastianvettel

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #431 on: September 05, 2018, 10:52:50 AM »
Great work for that prediction model. I just ordered a micro scale online and I am looking forward to see how those measurements translate into my real world pizza proofing, because I am only preparing dough for 2-3 pizzas at a time I only need a very small amount of yeast oftentimes under 1gram.

So far I relied on my intuition and a-not-so-good-kitchen-scale and that of course resulted in an overproofed dough a couple of times when I wasn't carefully watching it and checking in on it.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #432 on: September 12, 2018, 05:02:19 AM »
A good trick is to disolve 1g of yeast in 99g of water.  Then if you need say 0.20g of yeast, you replace 20g of the water in your recipe with the yeast water.  Makes it a bit more accurate and easier to measure.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #433 on: September 12, 2018, 09:08:06 AM »
A good trick is to disolve 1g of yeast in 99g of water.  Then if you need say 0.20g of yeast, you replace 20g of the water in your recipe with the yeast water.  Makes it a bit more accurate and easier to measure.

For this method, you really should have a scale with 0.1g precision, else go 10g in 990g. With only 1g precision, your 20g of solution could have anywhere from 0.1g to 0.3g.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #434 on: September 22, 2018, 06:27:11 AM »
Yes, a more accurate scale helps for sure, personally I do use one that measures 0.1g.

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Caputo Pizzeria (Blue Bag), Mutti S. Marzano (DOP) :)

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Offline dylandylan

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #435 on: October 07, 2018, 02:54:26 AM »
Hey Craig, long time no pizza!

If you're still collecting data can confirm:  IDY .4%, 24hr at 63f produced good fermentation.  Hydration 62.5%.


Offline Jackitup

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #436 on: October 07, 2018, 03:41:28 AM »
Hey Craig, long time no pizza!

If you're still collecting data can confirm:  IDY .4%, 24hr at 63f produced good fermentation.  Hydration 62.5%.

Dylan, you still rule your pies......AWESOME!!!
Jon

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Offline vincentoc13

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #437 on: October 08, 2018, 11:56:26 AM »
Hi Dylan - when you say 24hrs at 63%.  does that mean totall ball + bulk = 24hrs or straight to ball for 24hrs?

Thanks!

Offline dylandylan

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #438 on: October 08, 2018, 01:01:04 PM »
24hrs total, approx 19 bulk and 5 balled.    Not suggesting that's the best way to do it, just working around time constraints in this case.

Hi Dylan - when you say 24hrs at 63%.  does that mean totall ball + bulk = 24hrs or straight to ball for 24hrs?

Thanks!


Offline Swiss Frank

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #439 on: October 12, 2018, 01:30:45 PM »
I'm happy to take a stab at this and give you feedback.

I've made a pizza a week for 5 years but only now have decided to learn how to do it.  I've been using 2% yeast in 60-65% hydration dough that I usually give 2 days in the fridge.  But I don't really check it but have just randomly noticed it seems big enough after some small number of hours (which I never noted).  One reason I just joined this forum was to figure out how much yeast was actually necessary.

What do ADY, IDY, and CY mean?

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