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Author Topic: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?  (Read 2130 times)

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Online jvp123

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"Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« on: June 26, 2014, 07:59:21 PM »
Is it normal for a dough ball to quickly lose its "ball" shape and sort of collapse into its container a few afters after being put into the refrigerator?
I just put this into the refrigerator a couple hours ago - its going to be a bulk fermentation of two dough balls for 24 hours.  After two hours the "ball" has already started to collapse.  I'm sure by 24 hours it won't resemble a ball anymore.  I just seem to remember seeing videos where professionals use proofing trays and they seem to hold their shape and only "relax" a little but still resemble the original ball.

Anyway - this happens to me all the time but the pizzas still seem to come out ok.  Just curious if its normal or if have too much hydration or yeast or something?

This one is 61% hydration and .20% IDY.



Jeff

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2014, 08:25:30 PM »
You would have a problem if it didn't.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Online jvp123

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2014, 08:41:57 PM »
Ha ha thanks Craig.  ;D   I just thought I remembered seeing videos where so called "professionals" were pulling nicely formed dough "balls" out of their proofing boxes to the counter to begin opening them.  They didn't look like the blob of dough that mine looks like when I dump it out of the container and onto my counter.  Only after I work it for a second or two with a little bench flour does it take the ball shape again. I guess if it aint broke ... but I was just curious.

Thanks again!
Jeff

Jeff

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2014, 08:38:47 AM »
Jeff;
Your dough looks pretty normal to me too. As for those dough balls that you see being used by pizzerias, they have been mixed to a much greater level of gluten development than is possible to accomplish at home with most mixers, or by hand mixing/kneading, plus the absorption used to make the dough is somewhat lower, generally around 56 to 58%. This allows the dough balls to be placed into those dough boxes with the maximum dough ball count without the dough balls all growing together by the time they are ready to use. It is also at least partially responsible for the fact that almost all box store and to a great extent, pizzeria crusts, regardless of who made the pizza, have a distressingly similar look. This doesn't make their pizzas right or wrong or their crusts good or bad, when you're trying to run a million dollar business you can't always do what you might like to do so you have to do the best with what you have to work with.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online jvp123

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 11:34:44 AM »
Thanks so very much Tom.  You answered my query perfectly.  :D
Jeff

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Offline gelenn

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2014, 09:27:53 AM »
I've got a similar question.  I have started a mobile pizza business and plan on making all my dough.  We use the 18 x 26" trays, with 7 oz dough balls are putting 24 in each tray.  Several times when we got ready to go to the event, the dough balls had grown together and lost all shape--pretty much one be lump of dough!  Image a busy event and having to try and cut these into workable dough balls.  I suspect one of a couple of things might contribute to this issue and would like you guys input.  1) dough balls packed to tight, reduce to 15 dough balls per tray, 2) insufficent initial cooling of dough in frig prior to stacking, 3) to much yeast.  Below is my dough formula and technique, thanks for your input!

Caputo pizzeria flour 100%
Water                           58%
Salt                            1.75%
Instant yeast                .3%

We have 2 hobart 20 qt mixers we use to mix 9lbs of flour in each one at the time and mix for 10-12 minutes on average with about 8 of that on speed 2, so 2 batchs of dough come out for balling while 2 more batchs are mixing.  My help is inexperienced but progressing on their shaping techniques, slower right now than I would like.  After 2 trays are filled we take them to the fridge and leave unstacked until the next two trays are filled, then the first two are stacked and the last two are left unstacked.  We repeat this process until all of the dough is finished.  Please let me know your thoughts on what is happening here.  Thanks, Glenn

Offline shuboyje

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2014, 10:04:32 AM »
I'm not a big fan of dough trays for this exact reason, but I do notice a few things.  24 dough balls seems like a lot for one tray that size.  I don't think I'd go more then 3 balls across the 18" dimension.  Using the same type of spacing you would get 4 or 5 rows in the 26" dimensions, meaning 12-15 balls per tray.  On top of that your salt percentage is really low for Neapolitan pizza.  3% salt is pretty standard for Neapolitan dough, with some even going higher then that.  Salt tightens up the dough, so getting it within the normal range may help your issue a bit.
-Jeff

Offline gelenn

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2014, 11:51:34 AM »
Thanks shuboyje for the reply.  I too think 15 would be better, a local pizzeria that helped for our first big event went to 24 and i thought this was over doing it.  Also they insisted my formula was wrong even though they had never used 00 flour and reduced the salt to 1.3% and added oil that i didn't want.  This was the worst batch of them all but couldn't say much because they are friends and wouldn't take compensation for the help. Getting back to the formula, I didn't realize that Neapolitan dough went to 3% for salt, I was thinking 2%, I'll try the higher salt % definitely.  Thanks for your input!
Glenn

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 12:33:26 PM »
I wouldn't go over 3% unless you want to taste salt in the dough.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2014, 02:35:33 PM »
Glenn,

If you plan to go to 3% salt, you might want to do a test batch to see if that is the best value for you to use.

I have long associated the high salt values for Neapolitan style doughs with Neapolitan style doughs that are fermented at room/ambient temperature. It is common practice in Naples to adjust the amount of salt on a seasonal basis, along with changing the hydration value (the amount of water is always fixed so it is the flour quantity that is increased or decreased seasonally), or adjusting the amount of yeast. These changes are necessary to be sure that the dough is ready at the same time every day as customers arrive to be served at the pizzerias. Using high salt levels will not only strengthen the gluten of 00 flours but slow down the rate of fermentation. The reverse will happen when the salt quantity is reduced.

I once tried to engage Marco (pizzanapoletana) on the subject of cold fermenting doughs rather than fermenting them at room temperature. His comments can be seen at Reply 9 (last paragraph) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3057.msg25932#msg25932. It might well be that something in the 2.5-3% salt range will work for what you would like to do for your cold fermentation application, but it can't hurt to test those values to be on the safe side.

Peter

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Offline gelenn

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #10 on: June 29, 2014, 03:08:02 PM »
Thanks Peter,
That was my thought as well to try 2.5% and go from there.  Most of the breads I make use around 2% salt so I was a little surprised to see 3% being used.  Your reference to doing a room temp proof and adjusting flour and salt to accommodate the time factor makes sense.
Thanks,
Glenn

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2014, 04:01:33 PM »
Most of the breads I make use around 2% salt so I was a little surprised to see 3% being used. 

Pizza is not bread.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: "Dough ball" loses shape during fermentation?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2014, 11:02:47 PM »
Pizza is not bread.

So true.  Funny though how some bread dough makes decent pizza and some pizza doughs make great breads. 


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