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Author Topic: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?  (Read 4297 times)

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2016, 02:31:33 PM »
In most doughs 1.75% salt is all that you really need unless you're addicted to salt, then the sky's the limit, but be aware that salt has a suppressing effect upon the yeast so it can slow down fermentation quite significantly when you start getting up at 3% and higher levels. In pizza production you really don't need more than 1.75% salt as this level provides all the advantages that the salt provides while not going overboard with the sodium level as there will be an additional salt/sodium contribution from the sauce and especially the cheese and any processed meat toppings. It's all in developing a balance.
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2016, 02:44:09 PM »
In most doughs 1.75% salt is all that you really need unless you're addicted to salt, then the sky's the limit, but be aware that salt has a suppressing effect upon the yeast so it can slow down fermentation quite significantly when you start getting up at 3% and higher levels. In pizza production you really don't need more than 1.75% salt as this level provides all the advantages that the salt provides while not going overboard with the sodium level as there will be an additional salt/sodium contribution from the sauce and especially the cheese and any processed meat toppings. It's all in developing a balance.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

What percent of salt would a NY Elite/Coal formulation use by comparison? As high as Neapolitan, or in between Neo and NY slice?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2016, 05:59:28 PM »
Ryan;
2 to 2.5% is what I would call typical, some may go as high as 3% but that's way beyond my own taste preferences.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2016, 07:50:01 PM »

What percent of salt would a NY Elite/Coal formulation use by comparison? As high as Neapolitan, or in between Neo and NY slice?
Ryan,

Are you thinking of a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough as far as the amount of salt is concerned?

Peter

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2016, 09:17:42 PM »
Ryan,

Are you thinking of a room temperature fermented dough or a cold fermented dough as far as the amount of salt is concerned?

Peter

Probably cold ferment, I don't want to do room temp anymore until I get a more accurate scale.
the proof is in the pizza

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2016, 10:37:32 AM »
Probably cold ferment, I don't want to do room temp anymore until I get a more accurate scale.
Ryan,

The reason I posted the question about the manner of fermentation is because the classic Neapolitan pizza dough made in Naples relies on room temperature fermentation. Sometimes special rooms at the right temperatures may be used, and on occasion the dough can be temporarily held under refrigeration (but not for fermentation purposes), but the basic fermentation is room temperature fermentation. Where the salt comes into play is to use it to control the fermentation process, especially as the seasons change. From what I have read, and from what Marco (pizzanapoletana) has written, it appears that it can take a fair amount of salt (in the high two percent range) to control the fermentation. But, typically, less salt might be used in the winter and more in the summer. Of course, there are other ways of achieving the same objective, such as using more or less flour (since the water quantity is fixed, using more or less flour alters the hydration value and, hence, the rate of fermentation), using more or less yeast (or starter), or using warmer or colder water. In practice, the skilled pizzaiolo might use a combination of these measures. But the end objective is to make dough that is ready at about the same times each day when the doors open to patrons.

One of the things I have observed is that some people, including professionals, might choose to make cold fermented dough for their Neapolitan style pizzas. And, in so doing, they may use the same amount of yeast as is used for the classic Neapolitan dough that is subjected to room temperature fermentation. I do not believe that that is necessary. Salt in a range of 1.75-2% should be sufficient. Over the years, I have done hundreds of Sodium/salt calculations relating to dough formulations for cold fermentation applications, and I have not seen salt in a commercial setting that is around 3%. Some may get as high as 2.5% but that is not as common as using lower values.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Neapolitan pizzas tend to be of smaller size and the amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings also tend to be quite modest in quantity, with overall low salt levels. And very salty meat toppings (like pepperoni and sausage) are not common. So, even with the high salt levels in the crust, the total salt impact on taste on the palate for the pizza is in a tolerable range.

Peter
« Last Edit: July 26, 2016, 04:16:17 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2016, 11:31:44 AM »
Ryan,

The reason I posted the question about the manner of fermentation is because the classic Neapolitan pizza dough made in Naples relies on room temperature fermentation. Sometimes special rooms at the right temperatures may be used, and on occasion the dough can be temporarily held under refrigeration (but not for fermentation purposes), but the basic fermentation is room temperature fermentation. Where the salt comes into play is to use it to control the fermentation process, especially as the seasons change. From what I have read, and from what Marco (pizzanapoletana) has written, it appears that it can take a fair amount of salt (in the high two percent range) to control the fermentation. But, typically, more salt might be used in the winter and less in the summer. Of course, there are other ways of achieving the same objective, such as using more or less flour (since the water quantity is fixed, using more or less flour alters the hydration value and, hence, the rate of fermentation), using more or less yeast (or starter), or using warmer or colder water. In practice, the skilled pizzaiolo might use a combination of these measures. But the end objective is to make dough that is ready at about the same times each day when the doors open to patrons.

One of the things I have observed is that some people, including professionals, might choose to make cold fermented dough for their Neapolitan style pizzas. And, in so doing, they may use the same amount of yeast as is used for the classic Neapolitan dough that is subjected to room temperature fermentation. I do not believe that that is necessary. Salt in a range of 1.75-2% should be sufficient. Over the years, I have done hundreds of Sodium/salt calculations relating to dough formulations for cold fermentation applications, and I have not seen salt in a commercial setting that is around 3%. Some may get as high as 2.5% but that is not as common as using lower values.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Neapolitan pizzas tend to be of smaller size and the amounts of cheese, sauce and toppings also tend to be quite modest in quantity, with overall low salt levels. And very salty meat toppings (like pepperoni and sausage) are not common. So, even with the high salt levels in the crust, the total salt impact on taste on the palate for the pizza is in a tolerable range.

Peter

Thanks Peter,
I still have a hard time honing in on salt percentage. I'm pretty sure it's a scale related issue. I do seem to be coming up short when weighing my final bulk dough. My kitchen scale does not register until 4 grams, and then only in 1 gram increments so it is not that accurate for salt and yeast. I have been using volume measurements for those as I can never get the Lehmann calculator salt by volume to equal the weight. I use fine sea salt and have cycled the other salt settings but it still tends to be different. The best thing I have been doing lately is to round it off and do 500 or 1000 grams of flour so the bakers percents line up clean.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2016, 12:26:47 PM »
Thanks Peter,
I still have a hard time honing in on salt percentage. I'm pretty sure it's a scale related issue. I do seem to be coming up short when weighing my final bulk dough. My kitchen scale does not register until 4 grams, and then only in 1 gram increments so it is not that accurate for salt and yeast. I have been using volume measurements for those as I can never get the Lehmann calculator salt by volume to equal the weight. I use fine sea salt and have cycled the other salt settings but it still tends to be different. The best thing I have been doing lately is to round it off and do 500 or 1000 grams of flour so the bakers percents line up clean.
Ryan,

When Mike and I were designing the dough calculating tools, we debated the matter of sea salt as compared with ordinary table salt. However, we found that there were so many different sea salts, from fine to coarse, that there would be no way to differentiate them from ordinary table salt in the tools. So, we simply decided to lump sea salt and table salt together. I once suggested that members using sea salt use about 20% less than table salt and then try to zero in on a workable and satisfactory percent for the sea salt.

Peter

Offline Mindflux

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2016, 12:38:02 PM »

I still have a hard time honing in on salt percentage. I'm pretty sure it's a scale related issue. I do seem to be coming up short when weighing my final bulk dough. My kitchen scale does not register until 4 grams, and then only in 1 gram increments so it is not that accurate for salt and yeast. I have been using volume measurements for those as I can never get the Lehmann calculator salt by volume to equal the weight. I use fine sea salt and have cycled the other salt settings but it still tends to be different. The best thing I have been doing lately is to round it off and do 500 or 1000 grams of flour so the bakers percents line up clean.

Throw a ramekin or bowl on the scale and don't tare the weight then add your salt or yeast. It should help be more accurate. A lot of scales don't do well at sub 10 gram measurements. Then at least you can get your 1 gram increments, no 1/10ths without a jewelers scale or something.


Offline the1mu

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10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2016, 04:11:36 PM »
Where the salt comes into play is to use it to control the fermentation process, especially as the seasons change. From what I have read, and from what Marco (pizzanapoletana) has written, it appears that it can take a fair amount of salt (in the high two percent range) to control the fermentation. But, typically, more salt might be used in the winter and less in the summer.


Peter,

Is that correct? More in winter? Wouldn't it be more in summer in order to keep the higher ambient temps in check? In bread making, salt can be added to overnight preferments (like a biga or poolish) or soakers if one is concerned about the temps being too high in order to keep fermentation, and in the latter, bacteria, in check. I'm having a hard time imagining why you'd use more salt in the winter...

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2016, 04:23:02 PM »
Peter,

Is that correct? More in winter? Wouldn't it be more in summer in order to keep the higher ambient temps in check? In bread making, salt can be added to overnight preferments (like a biga or poolish) or soakers if one is concerned about the temps being too high in order to keep fermentation, and in the latter, bacteria, in check. I'm having a hard time imagining why you'd use more salt in the winter...
Aric,

Thanks for catching that. You are correct. I have corrected my post. In the summer, you want to slow down the fermentation process and speed it up in the winter.

Peter

Offline the1mu

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #31 on: July 26, 2016, 07:06:08 PM »
Great! I was worried I had gone off my rocker!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2016, 07:45:52 PM »
Great! I was worried I had gone off my rocker!
Aric,

I, likewise  :-D.

Peter

Offline carl333

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #33 on: August 01, 2016, 06:23:18 PM »
Carl, did you bake the rolls in the Blackstone or your kitchen oven?
Either way can you tell me at what temp and time?
I want to try this.

PizzaPap, 

I really have no experience with bread making or rolls in this case. Baked in a home oven I would say at 425 until it developed some browning. Delic!
Carl

Offline carl333

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #34 on: August 01, 2016, 06:26:50 PM »
Carl,

How long and what temp did you cook the dinner rolls at?  I have some dough in the fridge for tomorrow using this process (KA 10 minute mix after adding the oil) and I want to try out making some dinner rolls from the dough.  I'll post results tomorrow :)

Thomas
Clarkth, sorry I missed your post, been away for a while. How did you make out?
Carl

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Offline clarkth

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2016, 08:24:10 PM »
Clarkth, sorry I missed your post, been away for a while. How did you make out?

I made some this weekend from an extra dough ball, came out excellent!  375 for about 18 minutes until the tops were golden brown

  • 1st picture balled up - 40g each
  • 2nd picture after 2 hrs proofed in oven with light on
  • 3rd picture after cooking



Offline carl333

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #36 on: August 03, 2016, 08:24:25 AM »
nice Clarkth
Carl

Offline clarkth

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #37 on: August 03, 2016, 02:26:00 PM »
Found another good use for my Detroit pans!

Offline LeonNorman

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Re: 10 minute mix in a KA, dough ready for balling?
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2016, 06:55:39 AM »
Look good! I will try that. Thanks for sharing. Have a nice day.

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