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Author Topic: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid  (Read 7426 times)

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« on: September 16, 2016, 09:23:43 PM »
Just a quick check in for thoughts, comments or ideas before I actually start building. My plan is a variation of Tom's build for Jet Deck. That build is here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20117.0.html

My goal is a very well insulated lower mass dome. I'm planning 3 inch thick walls. I don't want to build the dome on top of the floor in case I have to swap something out in the future. I hope to never have to change anything, but just in case...The stand is built and I have a 3.5 inch base of perlcrete on top. I've got some board insulation that will go on top of the perlcrete under the oven floor.

I'm going with the two materials for the oven floor - biscotto and buff Whitacre Greer low duty firebrick. The biscotto plus a firebrick split is a little thicker than a full sized firebrick. I'm planning to use fire clay as a base to level them out. The difference in height isn't much. The discussion of the two material floor is here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43917.msg441778#msg441778

To build the 3 inch thick vertical wall that is 9 inches high, I am planning a base of split fire brick cut to 3 inches with the 4.5 inch x 1.25 inch side facing into the oven. On top of those, there will be split sailors. The rest of the wall will be reinforced refractory concrete (the same mix Tom used). I'm planning on using welded wire mesh as the reinforcement. The dome height goal is 14 inches. I was fighting the sunset, but I got a picture of a few bricks laid out. I had to use a little shim on top of the full firebrick to level out the plywood cutout.

Hopefully the pictures will make the ideas a little clearer. I'm open to comments and suggestions. If I get a chance, I'd like to work on cutting the floor this weekend.

Thanks,
Jon



Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 09:24:57 PM »
Continued...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 11:44:09 PM »
What's the internal diameter going to be?

You might consider using regular firebrick with a ~1.0W/mK conductivity for your NY side. I think it might be better for your 600-700F bakes. I think Chau (Jackie Tran) has been sticking a regular 3.0W/mK stone in his Pizza Party for NY bakes.  I'd also be curious to know what Jeff (shuboyje) thinks about the choice of bricks for the NY side.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 11:50:35 PM »
Craig, most of my pizzas are cooked at the 700 range on the WG bricks, and I don't dome.  I don't really do NY, but that is probably as close to a description of them as anything else.  Aside from the WG brick, you have medium duty, which will require doming, or high duty which are not suitable for a floor at any rate.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 11:55:38 PM »
What's the internal diameter going to be?

You might consider using regular firebrick with a ~1.0W/mK conductivity for your NY side. I think it might be better for your 600-700F bakes. I think Chau (Jackie Tran) has been sticking a regular 3.0W/mK stone in his Pizza Party for NY bakes.  I'd also be curious to know what Jeff (shuboyje) thinks about the choice of bricks for the NY side.
42 inch internal diameter.

Jeff recommended the Whitacre Greer brick in a PM so I've been slowly stock piling them. The supplier I had lined up with Superior bricks, which were Whitacre Greer with a different name, is back to just Whitacre Greer.

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 11:57:33 PM »
If Tom and Jeff are both on board, I'm sure you are good to go.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2016, 12:03:04 AM »
WG is Superior's supplier for fire brick, so they are identical.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2016, 08:54:29 PM »
Managed to get some work time in this weekend. First I cut splits to go under the biscotto (first pic). Then I cut the biscotto with an angle grinder. I was starting to get good at it just in time to finish. Lot of dust because I did it dry. A small portion of the lawn has now been fertilized with Italian biscotto. A few edges might need to get touched up but overall I'm happy with how the 4 1/4 angle grinder worked. Then I laid out some full sized fire brick in a herringbone/basket weave-ish combo and marked them for cutting (second pic). I also cut a lot of the base course of splits (third pic). It's actually starting to look like something (fourth pic).

Had to stop to mow the lawn and do a few other things. I'm on the road a couple days this week. Plan to pick up some more bricks when I get back. Next up is to put out the ceramic insulation and then make this floor layout an actual oven floor.

So far, it's still fun. Really enjoying the build.


Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2016, 01:04:14 PM »
What a intersting idea to get the best of both the Old and the New worlds!
Be aware dough that double layers like the Biscotto on top of the firebrick with fireclay might give your floor a long heating up time!
I instaled a extra layer of firebrick on top of a firebrick floor with home made fireclay (Sand, Clay and water) inbetween. My cuppola heats up quikly for Neapolitan temp. But the floor does not.
I would say loose sand/salt instead of fireclay and insulation underneath the Biscotto instead of firebrick

Case
« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 01:08:08 PM by Neopolitan »

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2016, 05:40:06 PM »
What a intersting idea to get the best of both the Old and the New worlds!
Be aware dough that double layers like the Biscotto on top of the firebrick with fireclay might give your floor a long heating up time!
I instaled a extra layer of firebrick on top of a firebrick floor with home made fireclay (Sand, Clay and water) inbetween. My cuppola heats up quikly for Neapolitan temp. But the floor does not.
I would say loose sand/salt instead of fireclay and insulation underneath the Biscotto instead of firebrick

Case
I hadn't considered the double layer impacting warmup times. On the biscotto side it would be as thin as possible, only for leveling. Under the full firebrick, it would be about an 1/8 of an inch for leveling and to make up some height.

I'm on the road for work but maybe 2 inches of board insulation under the biscotto and 1 inch under the firebrick  would be ok.  The biscotto side would need to come up a little that way. Interesting idea though. I will check it out.

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Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #10 on: September 21, 2016, 12:06:36 PM »
Also a loose layer under your Biscotto will make a change of a damaged tile easier (Biscotto is prone to wear under hard use and replaced in 5 years for proff ovens)
Your challenge is ofcourse to level the biscotto with the firebrick. That is were a loose layer could help as well.
And it also acts as insulation with sand and heat distribution with course seasalt.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 12:10:05 PM by Neopolitan »

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2016, 09:17:28 AM »
Here's where I am. got the floor in place and leveled. Ran a peel over it and it didn't seem to catch. I cut all my base/wall bricks. Dry stacked them and actually started laying brick yesterday. A have a pretty good pile of broken up fire brick pieces to use for aggregate in the outer wall. Still need some more. I hope to finish the wall bricks this morning. Going to try and pour the outer wall later this week. I'm using Heatstop 50. Amazing how quickly the bricks stick to each other.

Back in 2013 Tscarborough (Tom) put up a picture of the proper way to put mortar on a brick. I could see what he meant, didn't fully understand the picture. I totally get it now. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22618.msg238590#msg238590

Pics:
1. Floor
2. Drystack
3. Starting the base
4. More base
5. Base complete
6. Start Wall
7. More wall.
8. Had to call it quits for the day. About 10 more wall bricks to put up.

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2016, 11:32:57 AM »
I looked at your technical drawing.
I hope Youre not planning to put steel bars inside of the concrete cast are you?
The supporting steel should be outside of the conrete. In order to support the soldiers from the down and outward force of the flat dome resting on the soldiers. Holding it like the metal cooper hoops on a wooden Cask.

Case

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2016, 11:39:34 AM »
Also missing from the drawing is a thick insulation layer(s)

With a refractory wall as thin as you have (Good for pizza!) you need a thick insulation in order to build a effective heating WFO. And at the same time supporting the thin refractory layer.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2016, 12:07:09 PM »
For the reinforcement I was going to use welded wire mesh. It's thin and the grid is spaced at 6 inches so there will be two wires cast along the soldiers. The plan is similar, but a about an inch thinner than the oven but in this thread. I understand what you are saying though.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20117.msg201568#msg201568

There is also insulation planned. Under the floor is 3.5 inches of perlcrete and 2 inches on insulation board. The dome will be wrapped in a minimum of 3 inches of insulation. Depending on the space there might be some more perlite too.

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Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 02:31:08 PM »
As long the reinforcement (The orange dots in the drawing) are on the outside of the concrete it will be fine.

The more you infest on insulating your oven the more you safe on heatup time, efficiency, fuel consumption!

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 10:45:29 PM »
Slowly making progress. I thought I'd be able to do this a little faster than I am, but...well lets just say the local masons don't have to worry about me taking their jobs.

Pic 1: The firebrick split inner wall is done
Pic 2: The wall formed up. I forget the name of the material, but it was thin, flexible and $12 for a 4x8 sheet. One face of it was kind of like hard card board and the other face had a very smooth finish. Formed the circle very easily.
Pic 3:Filled the form with homebrew (3 sand, 1 hydrated lime, 1 fireclay, 1 portland cement) plus 2 parts broken up firebrick for aggregate. I used a scrap piece of rebar to pack everything into the form. I also used small chucks of fire brick to keep the wire mat pretty close to the outside of the form work.
Pic 4: the wall after the form was removed. To be completely honest, this is the prettiest section of the wall. Like I said, the masons have job security. At some point not too long after this picture, I lost my balance and caught myself by grabbing the wall. It held me without a problem. Successful, but unintentional test of localized wall strength.
Pic 5: Another view of the finished wall. I cut the floor template into three pieces that will fit out the door. Put duct tape over the seams and around the edges to keep debris out of the gap between the floor and the wall.
Pic 6: Got the first course in on Sunday.
Pic 7: A wise man once told me, "It's never too late to leave work early," so I did. Got the second course in today.

Wednesday is pretty busy but I hope to cut course 3 on Thursday and install it on Friday. Hopefully there is decent weather this weekend so I can keep going.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2016, 04:52:47 PM »
<sigh>....supposed to warm up a little over the weekend.

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2016, 03:07:00 AM »
<sigh>....supposed to warm up a little over the weekend.

So, no Global warming in your state? :D

That sucks for your project! although I do enjoy the occasional snowfall.
And btw You have a lovely garden.

Case



Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Building a 42 inch Low Dome Hybrid
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2016, 09:14:49 PM »
So, no Global warming in your state? :D

That sucks for your project! although I do enjoy the occasional snowfall.
And btw You have a lovely garden.

Case
Snow is gone now. Didn't get as much done as I wanted to do over the weekend.  Wednesday is supposed to be nice. I'm planning to skip work and get some bricks set in place.

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