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Author Topic: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone  (Read 2707 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« on: November 08, 2016, 05:20:59 PM »
My Pizza Party oven has the Saputo stones installed in it right now.  The last couple of bakes I wanted the bottoms baked more (tops baking faster than bottoms).  I usually do not bake at Neapolitan temperatures - I typically go for 3 minute bakes in the 700s.

Of course, that is the opposite of what happens with the stock stones - my pie bottoms were scorching too much.

I was already thinking of getting an extra long baking stone for baguettes in my home oven and found this one -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005IF2YOW/?tag=pmak-20
which is 20" X 13.5", a great size for baguette baking.  The Pizza Party entrance is 14" wide so I knew the stone would fit.

My thinking also was that I would get a bit more conductivity with cordierite and the baking stone on top of the Saputo give me more floor mass and help make the oven less volatile in its temperature changes (the Pizza Party is very volatile in this way).

I reached out to Craig (TXCraig1) to get his thinking and opinion and found out he had been using that type of setup already with success!  And, his cordierite stone was holding up to the WFO flame and temperature just fine.

I had a leftover SD dough from my Sunday night bake sitting in the fridge so I decided to go for it yesterday.

Pretty happy with my first bake this way.  The stone slid right in easily and takes up most of the pie baking area.  I heated the oven with the flame and the flame guard on the side for about 1:45.  The stone was a bit over 700 and so I went for it.

The bake came out almost "just right" but I still want more balance (more bottom heat, less top).  Craig suggested that I shovel out some coals or burning wood once the stone is heated up.  Or, I can heat up the stone to a higher temperature and launch with a very low flame or no flame.

I will keep fiddling with this - I think it looks promising and the tinkering is fun.

The pie itself was good eats!
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2016, 06:08:27 PM »
Here are a couple I made a while back using this technique. The stone was ~850F at the launch with very little fire in the oven. About a 3 - 3.5 minute bake or so. 62% bromated Superlative 1-2-3 dough + 1% LDM. 4-5 hours at 77F. Molasses sweetened sauce, Walmart mozz, homemade pulled pork w/ cider vinegar and red pepper, onions, fresh and pickled jalapeno, and - God have mercy on my soul - pickles.  Seriously good  :-[
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:31:49 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2016, 09:16:30 AM »
So what do you guys call this style of pizza - is it something like Neo-NY. Are you using oregano in the sauce or keeping it more NP-ish. Is this a pie that you cook because you like the curst texture at 3 min?

Just wondering since I think I could pull off a small 12 inch NY style in my Roccbox but not sure if some sugar in the dough would cause it to burn w/ a 3 min bake... Seems like Craig used Molasses so my usual 1% or so of sugar should be OK?
Norm
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Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2016, 09:54:55 AM »
There is nothing NP about this. I wouldn't call mine Neo-NY either. These are totally different - soft puffy rim, crunchy bottom, fairly heavy toppings - more of a Vinnie Pie Lite. Kick back, eat pizza, get drunk - or maybe not exactly in that order  :-D

The molasses wasn't in the dough (I haven't come that far yet) - rather in the sauce to give it a hint of BBQ sauce flavor. I can't remember, but I might have put a touch of cider vinegar in it too. The old me probably wouldn't have called this pizza, but the new softer, gentler me is much more accepting.

The 1-2-3 reference was a nod to scott123 - 1% sugar, 2% salt, 3% oil.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2016, 10:14:24 AM »
OK, I think I understand - now I'm just wondering what Neo-NY is (if that was not it) - I see reference to Neo-NY here and there but not totally sure what puts a pie into that category (assuming that category exists as a legitimate pizza type)
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG and PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2016, 10:27:04 AM »
I see reference to Neo-NY here and there but not totally sure what puts a pie into that category

Probably depends on who you ask. Maybe something like this? Every now and then I like to use aged mozz and slow the bake time down a bit.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 10:39:47 AM »
I have been baking in this temperature range (700s) for a long time but have given up trying to name it.  NY zealots would have a fit.  And, it is not Neapolitan. 

I rarely use fresh mozzarella and often use traditional toppings (e.g. pepperoni, sausage, plain cheese) but I also go "out there" with others such as dates or asparagus, unbaked prosciutto, lettuce, arugula, etc.   

I often think of it as Neo-NY but, again, I do not know if that is defined nor do I know if it fits.  Maybe Neo-American?  Or, you can make me famous and call it a Mitch pie.   :P
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 11:26:14 AM by mitchjg »
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Offline parallei

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2016, 11:05:39 AM »
OK, I think I understand - now I'm just wondering what Neo-NY is (if that was not it) - I see reference to Neo-NY here and there but not totally sure what puts a pie into that category (assuming that category exists as a legitimate pizza type)

Folks used to call them a "Hybrid" pie too.  At least I did.  My old 2Stone was good at baking them.  I used to like 50/50 blend 00/High Gluten or Bread Flour, no oil or sugar though, dry mozz and about a 3 min bake.

That's a fine looking pie, Craig.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 11:10:25 AM by parallei »

Offline scott r

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2016, 03:53:30 PM »
You guys are speaking my language here with the 3 minute wfo bakes.  Holy %$# these are pics of some beautiful pies!  This is where I have settled as my "happy place" after years of experimentation.  I have been calling it a hybrid neapolitan/coal oven pie just for lack of a better explanation. 

It should be noted that 3.5 minutes is clearly in the coal oven realm as far as bake time goes.   I think you wouldn't be lying if you called it coal oven style pizza made in a wfo, or new york elite style pizza.   Its also probably better than whats coming out of most coal ovens.   Coal heat can produce a surprisingly dry environment which limits your choice of cheeses.   

I have personally timed pies at the original Patsy's location in the low 3 minute realm, Totono's, Grimaldi's and others in the 3.5-ish realm, and of course the modern Earthstone coal ovens that are everywhere now love to sit in the 3-4 minute realm.  Your heat throughout the day can vary widely with coal (wood is more controllable) and I have timed Pepe's in New Haven anywhere from 5-12 minutes!   Im not saying patsy's is always a 3 minute pie, but I have had them for sure.    The giant New Haven coal ovens are very different than many of the smaller coal ovens found in the NY area and make it even tougher to nail down a bake time throughout the firing process. 
« Last Edit: November 09, 2016, 09:51:04 PM by scott r »

Offline bradtri

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2016, 06:06:56 PM »
Hey Mitch,
  I've also done a bit of the reverse.  I know several other forum members have replaced their traditional WFO floors with saputo.  I went with a hybrid approach where I just replaced an 18"x18" patch in my WFO with saputo, giving me some really nice multi-temperature capabilities. 

I'm thinking any WFO built in the future should have one side dedicated to saputo-like characteristics and the other side more along the lines of cordierite or fibrament ... or whatever the person wants.  This really builds a lot of flexibility into your oven as you can simply cook on whichever floor you want. 

  I've even had a few pies where the saputo was not getting the bottom done enough on my WFO and I simply slid the pizza onto some of the hotter traditional floor for some quick browning ... sort of a reverse-doming process.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2016, 06:33:17 PM »
Thanks a lot Mitch.  You just cost me another $30-$50. :'(

Offline thezaman

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2016, 10:10:53 AM »
There is nothing NP about this. I wouldn't call mine Neo-NY either. These are totally different - soft puffy rim, crunchy bottom, fairly heavy toppings - more of a Vinnie Pie Lite. Kick back, eat pizza, get drunk - or maybe not exactly in that order  :-D

The molasses wasn't in the dough (I haven't come that far yet) - rather in the sauce to give it a hint of BBQ sauce flavor. I can't remember, but I might have put a touch of cider vinegar in it too. The old me probably wouldn't have called this pizza, but the new softer, gentler me is much more accepting.

The 1-2-3 reference was a nod to scott123 - 1% sugar, 2% salt, 3% oil.
 
how much yeast did you use?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2016, 10:20:51 AM »
Larry,

If I remember right, 0.1% IDY. That's pretty much my go-to for NYS. 4-5 hours @ 77F.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline thezaman

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2016, 01:03:50 PM »
thanks,want to try this recipe using my baking steel.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 09:27:48 PM »
I made a couple of pies tonight with the cordierite stone in the Pizza Party.  Very successful.  So far, so good with the stone in there.

I decided to follow Craig's "1-2-3", sort of.  62% H20, 3% oil, 2% salt.  KABF.  The diastatic malt I have is 60 lintner while LDMP is 20.  So, I used 0.33%.  No sugar.  0.1% IDY @ about 52 degrees for most of the 24 hour ferment.

I did a 2 hour heat up to soak the stone(s) and baked at about 750 for 2 1/2 minutes.  Before opening the pie, I had a low flame each time but threw a couple of pieces of kindle on the fire to give the stone a little blast.  The kindle was consumed before the bake.  I found that this worked well.  I domed the pies for the last 20 or 30 seconds and that worked nicely - good balance of the top and bottom and the bake was just the way I wanted it.

I posted more pics here - http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg456572#msg456572 but here are some pics:

Mitch

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Offline Martianpc

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2018, 10:07:58 AM »
I am bringing this back from the dead. Do you find that the stone is the best choice, or do you wish you had gotten a steel?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2018, 02:07:03 PM »
Steel is WAY too conductive for this application. It's really only suited to home oven use.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2018, 03:20:03 PM »
Steel is WAY too conductive for this application. It's really only suited to home oven use.

Yep. 

If I was looking for a LOT of conductivity (more than enough, too much), I would stick with the factory tiles.  The Saputo tiles (in there now) are much less conductive - great for a Neapolitan.   For lower baking temperatures, I find the bottom a bit low compared to the top, hence I try using the cordierite stone - like Goldilocks - not too much, not too little.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline bradtri

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Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 07:30:42 PM »
I only have the saputo but recently got my hands on some whiteacre Greer firebrick.  I’d like to make my pizza party a “hybrid stone” oven by replacing one of the front stones with the WG. 

My question is this.  Since the WG are smaller I’m going to need some way to support them evenly.  I’m thinking of putting a couple pieces of 16 gauge steel (stainless?) underneath all of the stones, both for the WG and the Saputo. 

This will give me a more conductive area to finish pies on that haven’t quite finished on the bottom.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: February 28, 2018, 07:36:16 PM by bradtri »
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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Pizza Party Oven with a Cordierite Baking Stone
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2018, 08:01:12 PM »
The biscotto (back) I got from Simon is slightly thicker than a WG firebrick split (front). I used fireclay to bring the brick height up in my oven build (not a pizza party oven). I picked up a bag of fireclay from a local pottery distributor. I think 50 pounds of fireclay was about 15 bucks.

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