A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Faux sourdough?  (Read 737 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DustinA

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 137
  • Location: St. Louis
  • I Love Pizza!
Faux sourdough?
« on: November 10, 2018, 09:25:48 PM »
Hi Tom,
  I recently decided to try substituting beer for part of the water content in my dough.  I followed Pete's recipe in the link below but made 3 key changes to the process as the pizzas in the thread seem to come out kind of flat and looked unrisen.  I mixed the water, sugar and yeast together separately to give the yeast a head start before the beer was introduced.  I raised the temperature from 425 to 500 and then I swapped out the pizza screen for a pizza stone.

The yeast, cold tap water and sugar were mixed together and allowed to proof for 20 minutes.  This was then moved to the bowl of a stand mixer where the flour and salt were added to serve as a moisture barrier between the yeast and beer.  The beer was then added to this and the mixer turned on to setting 2 for 2 minutes.  After a shaggy mass had formed, the oil was added and the machine turned to setting 3 for 5 minutes.  I immediately portioned, rolled and put it into a dough box.  They were lightly coated in oil, placed into the fridge uncovered for 3 hours, covered and put to sleep for 72 hours.

When it came time to cook the pizzas, the dough was set out for 2 hours to bring them up to room temp and preheated the oven.  I stretched them out by hand, slid them onto the stone with a peel and baked until GBD. 

So.  Here's my question.  The flavor of the crust was VERY similar to some of the sourdough pizzas that I've made in the past.  I have some suspicions as to why, but I was wondering if you could verify?  I know that alcohol is a byproduct of the natural leavener process and I suspect that the flavor I was getting from the beer was emulating that "sour" flavor from a sourdough starter.  Is this correct or am I way off base here?

Here is all the link and dough formula information.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17415.360

Pendleton Power Flour (100%):   672 g  |  23.7 oz | 1.48 lbs
Water (21.4893%):                      144.41 g  |  5.09 oz | 0.32 lbs (5 fluid ounces)
IDY (0.67236%):                          4.52 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.5 tsp | 0.5 tbsp
Salt (0.8306%):                           5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Extra Virgin Olive Oil (2.009%):   13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp
Sugar (0.29663%):                      1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Beer (39.844%):                          267.75 g | 9.44 oz | 0.59 lbs (9 fluid ounces)
Total (165.14189%):                   1109.75 g | 39.14 oz | 2.45 lbs | TF = N/A
   



Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2018, 11:01:55 PM »
I tens to agree with you. Beer is really nothing more than a preferment, much like a starter. One question I have is why did you go to the effort to separate the beer from the other ingredients by adding it late as you did? When I've used beer I just add it right into the water, also we found that a darker/stronger beer provided a better flavor than lighter colored beers.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline DustinA

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 137
  • Location: St. Louis
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #2 on: November 11, 2018, 09:48:40 AM »
I tens to agree with you. Beer is really nothing more than a preferment, much like a starter. One question I have is why did you go to the effort to separate the beer from the other ingredients by adding it late as you did? When I've used beer I just add it right into the water, also we found that a darker/stronger beer provided a better flavor than lighter colored beers.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for the reply Tom.  The reason that I added it with the rest of the dry ingredients was that there was some folks in the initial thread stating that yeast couldn't survive in a high alcohol environment.  This precipitated the addition of extra yeast as well as the use of beer that was low on the bitterness scale.  I was wanting to further increase the life of the yeast by allowing it to proof for a bit before introducing it to the beer, hence the delayed adding of the beer. 

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 12:33:22 PM »
I don't remember the exact percentages anymore but brewers yeast will ferment up to about 13% alcohol content and bakers yeast will ferment up to about 1% less than that, still well under the alcohol content of beer as we know it, and don't forget that it will also be further diluted by the water that you're adding to the dough so there is really nothing to worry about. Beer is also slightly acidic, yeast likes an acidic environment (within reason) so the two play quite well together....don't believe everything you read on the internet. :).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline DustinA

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 137
  • Location: St. Louis
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 02:15:31 PM »
lol Good point.  ;D

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline DustinA

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 137
  • Location: St. Louis
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2018, 02:04:12 PM »
Follow up question, Tom. 

In the recipe above, you will notice that the salt is pretty low compared to most recipes.  When I made the three dough balls, I baked one off the same day, one at 48 hours and one at 72.  The same day and 48 hour doughs were noticeably lacking in flavor, like you would expect.  The 72 hour dough, however, was near perfection.  It didn't taste like it was missing any salt whatsoever.  Do you know what would cause this?  Are my tastes buds just that out of whack?

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2018, 07:20:22 PM »
If you are tasting salt either the salt level is wwaayy too high or you're on a salt free diet. What you are actually seeing is the development of alcohol, carbon dioxide and acids (acteic, lactic and propionic) which provide what we like to call the flavor of fermentation. This flavor increases in intensity increased fermentation. Most people like it but then there are a few who don't. Salt, while not a flavor by itself, is what many refer to as a flavor potentiator, meaning that it improves the flavor that's present while not adding a flavor of its own, much like vanilla in a chocolate cake. Formulators for convenience foods know that there are three "food groups" aka ingredients that will cause people to gravitate to a food item, these ingredients are: salt, fat and sugar. Just look at the ingredient label and nutrition fact panel on any run of the mill convenience food and you will see one or more of these ingredients standing proudly above all the rest, which is probably as good a reason to avoid these foods whenever possible. Point is, a little more salt will help to improve the flavor of your crust, regardless of how long the dough is fermented. As a product formulator for many years we found that 1.5% salt is about the minimum that can be used without impacting the flavor of the finished product and 2.5% is about the maximum that can be used before the product begins to take on certain "salty" flavor notes. I might add that in some areas where people tend to consume high levels of salt the entire salty flavor profile can be grossly distorted. If you ever sat in a restaurant and watched someone empty a salt shaker on their steak you know what I mean. We used to jokingly say that salt is addictive because when you begin using it you need more and more (actually, your taste buds just become accustomed/desensitized to it).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline DustinA

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 137
  • Location: St. Louis
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 08:09:31 PM »
Interesting, thank you Tom.

One final question and I'll leave you alone.  The texture on the crust of this pizza is unlike anything I've been able to produce before.  It's crispy.  Like filo dough crispy.  I've been able to replicate it 6 times now and it always comes out with this perfectly crispy texture but I'm doing anything special with the pizza or procedure other than substituting the beer in.  Does the alcohol really make that much of a difference?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 08:14:10 PM by DustinA »

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 28326
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 08:30:01 PM »
Tom,

Some time ago, I discovered that salt could affect the degree of sweetness of a pizza crust where the dough contained both sugars and salt. So, to confirm that suspicion. I conducted some simple tests where I made water solutions and added salt to one but not to the other. Both solutions contained sugars (cane sugar syrup and molasses). I described my results at Reply 777 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3940.msg161018#msg161018

What I took away from my simple tests was that too much salt may masquerade the sweetness of a crust that contains sugars. That might suggest a need to increase the sugar if sweetness in the crust is a desired thing or, alternatively, reducing the amount of salt.

Peter

Offline beat2life

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 17
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2018, 05:25:44 AM »


Pendleton Power Flour (100%):   672 g  |  23.7 oz | 1.48 lbs


Hey St. Louis!  Have you found Power flour around town? 

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2018, 11:25:53 AM »
Peter;
When looking at the impact of salt on sweetness we found that our taste/sensory panel detected salt at lower levels than sugar and they also detected salt before they could detect the sugar/sweetness which confirms your findings. When salt is detected we tend to focus on the salt and don't perceive the presence or magnitude of sugar present, hence we don't taste or perceive the sugar as we would without the salt. We used to use the expression that it has the ability to "wipe-out" the taste buds of our sensory panel. This was important information for us to know as it would influence how we presented products to our sensory panel for evaluation since we didn't want to fall into the old adage of statisticians of "tell me what you want to show and I'll prove it statically" or in our case, tell me what outcome you want to see and I'll develop a sensory test protocol to prove it. Like Sargent Joe Friday used to say "Just the facts, nothing but the facts".
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline andytiedye

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 127
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2019, 06:20:14 PM »
Did something like this for my latest pizza. At my MIL's place, 2500 miles from our sourdough, and wanted to make pizza.

Came out great.  MIL even had seconds!  First time I have seen her have a second helping of anything in years (she is 92 and hasn't got much of an appetite).

Crust:
675g KA white whole wheat flour
40g AP flour
18 oz. Murphy's Stout
1 cup warm water.
1 packet  8.75g ADY
100g chopped pecans
a little salt
1T oregano
A little pepper
Some garlic powder

stuffed with:
227g ground bison
1 chopped bell pepper
6 sliced baby bella mushrooms
1 tsp oregano
1 sm package fresh sage
Some garlic powder

Topped with:
1 sliced sausage
Sauce
Cheese



Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 4902
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Faux sourdough?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2019, 12:46:17 AM »
With stout and bison who could ever resist it? :-D
And the pecans, well....that's just icing on the cake! :drool:
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress