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Author Topic: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF  (Read 834 times)

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Offline chara48

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1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« on: November 22, 2018, 04:49:44 PM »
Hello,

I am still a relative newbie and have been experimenting with my dough making techniques.  I've been reading comments here as well as reading The Pizza Bible and Elements of Pizza.  In The Elements book, Forkish talks about making sure the dough is "mature" and he has both room temperature and cold temperature recipes.  So far I have had some success with the room temp. recipe (mix the dough mid morning, leave on counter, cook pizza later that evening).  I have read about the 1-2 day cold fermentations as helping to develop flavor. 

My question how active can the yeast be in a refrigerator at 40F?  Can the yeast ferment enough to have a "mature" dough at those low temperatures?  What are the indicators of a mature dough?

Thanks,
Chris

Offline gtsum2

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2018, 06:42:25 PM »
In for answers also. I have used Forkish recipes for neo type pizza in the home oven (and the blackstone) with very good success...I have better results with his 24-38 south using both room temp bulk and fridge cold balled ferment

Offline norcoscia

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2018, 06:52:33 PM »
To test CF out shoot for a finished dough temp about 73-75 degrees F, use .4-.5 IDY. That should be OK for a 48 hour CF. CF doughs (once they cool down to the temp in your refrigerator) have a big window of usability. 3 day CF is my favorite for a lot of reasons. Happy to provide more info if interested....

Best to use a dough calculator for the recipe. I have one online at

www.mypizzamaster.com

and there are others you can find on the forum too.

The dough should about double in size when it is close to ready (but you can go with it a little on either side of double).....
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG, Baker's Pride M02T 220V, PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline Rolls

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2018, 01:04:38 PM »
My question how active can the yeast be in a refrigerator at 40F?  Can the yeast ferment enough to have a "mature" dough at those low temperatures?  What are the indicators of a mature dough?

The yeast activity is considerably slower at fridge temps but still enough to ferment the dough and thereby alter its characteristics.  Enzymatic activity also has a big impact on the dough from the moment the flour is mixed with the water.  I don't know how the word "maturation" specifically applies to dough in North America, but in Italy it refers primarily to the enzymatic activity. 

Why not conduct a simple and inexpensive experiment whereby you bake two pizzas, side by side, one using RT (room temperature fermentation) and the other CF (cold fermentation) so you can judge for yourself?


Rolls
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2018, 01:37:21 PM »
Enzymatic activity is likewise slowed by decreasing temperature. It's cut by about half with each 10C drop.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Rolls

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2018, 06:31:31 PM »
Enzymatic activity is likewise slowed but not inactivated and continues to affect the properties of the dough even at 4C.  It's also important to remember that in the course of many cold fermentation processes, the dough is subjected to varying degrees of temperature before and after its rest time in the fridge.  The dough is not mixed to an internal temperature of 4C before going into the cooler, nor is the dough baked at 4C.


Rolls
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Offline jma6610

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2018, 07:38:19 PM »
Rolls last comment is closely related to my recent post/question. I've been using 48-72 hour CF, but in the past was not paying much attention to how warm the dough is after mixing and before starting CF and also how long the dough is out at RT before and after CF. Now that I'm paying more attention to those details, I'm finding that there are very large differences in the dough when these times and temperatures outside the refrigerator are altered to the point that an extra 15 to 30 minutes of RT before putting into the refrigerator creates a good bit of difference. The same holds for the time after CF and before baking. I'm starting to shoot for 55-60F temps before baking, which takes about an hour or so for my conditions.

Offline Rolls

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2018, 08:11:38 PM »
Yes, the temperature of the dough coming off the mixer is extremely important as it sets the stage for the rest of the fermentation process.  Note how often our very own Dough Doctor will ask about finished dough temperature when trying to troubleshoot someone's dough problems.


Rolls
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Offline chara48

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2018, 03:47:02 PM »
Hello,

Thank you very much for all the replies.  I took Rolls' advice and did a comparison test yesterday. Using the Elements of Pizza book I made two (2) balls of 24-48 dough recipe (Cold) vs. (2) balls of Saturday Night Dough recipe (Room).  I adjusted both hydration down to 65% since we were baking in a WFO and used a KA mixer instead of hand mixing.  I mistakenly used the same amount of IDY for both (1g/250g flour or .4%).

Both doughs had a 73F temp right after mixing.  Not surprisingly the room temp dough balls had expanded way more than the cold dough.  The room temp dough was easier the stretch and shape.  We thought the cold temp dough might have had tiny bit more flavor although some didn't notice.  The cold dough had about 30 hours fermentation in this case. 

Thanks again for the information.  Happy Holidays!

Chris

Offline chara48

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2018, 03:51:02 PM »
BTW,
It seems like there is a typo on the yeast % in the ingredient table for the Saturday Night Pizza Dough (p. 109) in this book. 

I'm not great at math but isn't 0.3g/500g =.06% and not .6%?

Thx,
Chris

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Offline mitchjg

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2018, 04:03:24 PM »
BTW,
It seems like there is a typo on the yeast % in the ingredient table for the Saturday Night Pizza Dough (p. 109) in this book. 

I'm not great at math but isn't 0.3g/500g =.06% and not .6%?

Thx,
Chris

You are right!

He also describes it as 1/3 of 1/4 teaspoon, which is 1/12 of a teaspoon.  A teaspoon of idy is about 3 grams.  So 1/12 is 0.25 grams - not exactly the same but about .6% for so many hours at room temperature would be wayyyyyy too much. 
Mitch

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 04:15:10 PM »
You are right!

He also describes it as 1/3 of 1/4 teaspoon, which is 1/12 of a teaspoon.  A teaspoon of idy is about 3 grams.  So 1/12 is 0.25 grams - not exactly the same but about .6% for so many hours at room temperature would be wayyyyyy too much.
Mitch,

I don't have the book but is it possible that there was a typo and "1/3 of 1/4 teaspoon" should have been "1/3 or 1/4 teaspoon" (emphasis mine)?

Peter

Offline mitchjg

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 04:52:28 PM »
Mitch,

I don't have the book but is it possible that there was a typo and "1/3 of 1/4 teaspoon" should have been "1/3 or 1/4 teaspoon" (emphasis mine)?

Peter

No, it is the way I described.  Screenshots (chart and text) of Kindle edition below.   Elsewhere, in other recipes, he says things like 1/2 of 1/4 or 1/10 of 1/4, etc.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2018, 04:57:47 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

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Offline stiks47

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Re: 1-2 day CF vs 6-8 hr RF
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2018, 12:42:43 AM »
There are quite a few typos in his book. I ageee its hard to know which figure to follow, the grams or the % listed.

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