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Author Topic: Ok Tom... what gives??  (Read 575 times)

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Offline QwertyJuan

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Ok Tom... what gives??
« on: February 11, 2019, 09:04:05 PM »
On your recommendations, over the last year or so that I've been here on this forum, I broke down and purchased myself a spiral mixer for work. It works BEAUTIFULLY!! I can do nearly 4 times the dough, in less time and it feels as soft as a babies bottom! ;)

What is making me wonder though... how come my dough is...

A) Browning SIGNIFICANTLY more than before?? (every batch I make I am using less and less sugar in order to get the same level of browning as before.)
B) Lasting MUCH longer in the fridge. I used an almost 72 hour dough today and it baked up as if it was freshly made. Before 48 hours was the MAX I could get.
C) Puffing up MUCH better in the oven... the oven spring on the crust is phenomenal.
D) It's significantly crispier.
E) With the same hydration is seems to be drier... I've had to up the hydration of my recipe to get my dough to stretch easier.
F) The gluten development at the end of mixing is insane! My spiral mixer dough would NEVER windowpane coming out of the mixer.
G) The amount of bubbles in the dough is CRAZY.... after I stretch it, it's like a soft, fluffy pillow of dough. My spiral mixer dough NEVER had air in it like this... does a spiral mixer aerate the dough somehow??

Anyhow... maybe ALL of these question can be answered by one simple answer, but I would like to thank you Tom. My pizza has NEVER been this nice (and FWIW I had pretty decent pizza before).

P.S. Even my kitchen helpers are commenting on the pizza... one of them said today, "it's like every single pizza is turning out perfectly today".
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 09:08:12 PM by QwertyJuan »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 11:14:23 PM »
QJ;
Based on all of the things that you've mentioned, it appears that indeed there might be a common denominator. Finished dough temperature (now lower with your new spiral mixer) would prove to be a reasonable explanation. As for the difference in mixing action between a planetary mixer and a spiral mixer, the planetary mixer with a dough hook develops the gluten by driving the hook into the dough and pulling it slightly from the side of the bowl while the spiral mixer develops the gluten using a true stretching and pulling action, sound familiar? That's the same action exerted on a dough when it is kneaded. This action exposes a greater dough surface to the air for better oxidation of the gluten forming bonds resulting in a stronger and drier feeling dough, it also works to help align the gluten for a smoother dough feel (this is just like giving the dough a little kneading after it has been machine mixed). At the same time a spiral mixer tends to mix the entire dough, regardless of size, all the same while a planetary mixer tends to mix different size doughs somewhat differently, especially where large size doughs are employed. The one exception to this appears to be the new HL-Series of Hobart planetary mixers, with these mixers we still see a difference with smaller size doughs but when you get into the larger size doughs for the bowl capacity there doesn't seem to be as much, if any difference between say a half size dough and a full capacity sized dough.
I'm glad to hear that you and your crew are seeing the benefits of your new spiral mixer, now if they could just figure out a way to make sauce in them?  :)
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 10:47:44 AM »
Home user just stopping by the big kids play room :)   so where do even best home stand mixers, like Bosch or Ankarsarum, fit in ...or is this well-mixed apples and oranges?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 12:46:25 PM »
I wish I had an answer to that question, but I don't. There are many more different designs of home dough mixers than there are commercial mixers and as you have heard me say many times before about ovens, "Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself", the same might be said for home mixers too. When it comes to commercial size mixers it seems that the manufacturers are more interested in duplicating a design as opposed to improving upon a design, where as with home mixers there seems to be more emphasis on improving a design. With the increase in home baking over the past few years there seems to be a trend towards better (more powerful and better mixing action) home mixers and I'm really glad to see an increase in interest in spiral design mixers for home use.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Brent-r

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 01:16:39 PM »
I am a little confused about the terms that describe home mixers.  Is a typical Kitchen Aid machine with a spiral dough hook really a "spiral design".   Can you give me an example of a planetary design in a home machine?
Brent

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Offline wb54885

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 02:21:41 PM »
"Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself"
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

There's the post signature I've been looking for.

QJ;
Based on all of the things that you've mentioned, it appears that indeed there might be a common denominator. Finished dough temperature (now lower with your new spiral mixer) would prove to be a reasonable explanation. As for the difference in mixing action between a planetary mixer and a spiral mixer, the planetary mixer with a dough hook develops the gluten by driving the hook into the dough and pulling it slightly from the side of the bowl while the spiral mixer develops the gluten using a true stretching and pulling action, sound familiar? That's the same action exerted on a dough when it is kneaded. This action exposes a greater dough surface to the air for better oxidation of the gluten forming bonds resulting in a stronger and drier feeling dough, it also works to help align the gluten for a smoother dough feel (this is just like giving the dough a little kneading after it has been machine mixed).

Let's say you just really want to develop the shoulder muscles of a Titan and have an older Hobart planetary mixer, could you get anywhere near the results of a spiral mixer by using a planetary mixer to bring a dough together ("jump start" the mixing) + hand-kneading the resulting dough mass in smaller amounts afterward? Say you mix 40 total pounds of dough in a planetary mixer for 3 minutes, break that mass into 3 balls on a prep table and knead each for 5-10 more minutes. Are you going to be anywhere close to the results using a spiral mixer for the whole process would provide?

Let's assume finished dough temperature and apparent dough smoothness and feel end up in the same place...or does this comparison even make any sense, would they end up in the same place at all?
Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 02:55:05 PM »
Thanks Tom!




Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 09:44:53 PM »
I am a little confused about the terms that describe home mixers.  Is a typical Kitchen Aid machine with a spiral dough hook really a "spiral design".   Can you give me an example of a planetary design in a home machine?

A Kitchen Aid is a "home user" planetary mixer. A spiral mixer is a completely different beast...

THIS is a spiral mixer...

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2019, 12:39:35 AM »
Change the bench kneading time to something closer to 20-minutes and the answer is yes. A planetary mixer can mix a dough as well as a spiral mixer in many cases (if the planetary mixer isn't too old and tired) but if can only do so with a specific amount of dough in the bowl too much or too little dough and it doesn't get mixed as well as it should as the dough either grabs onto the hook and receives little mixing action or it either climbs up the hook or gets forced to the top of the bowl where the dough doesn't get the contact needed with the hook for proper mixing action. The spiral mixers handle doughs of different sizes quite well with very consistent mixing results across all reasonable dough sizes.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline wb54885

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Re: Ok Tom... what gives??
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 04:10:53 PM »
Change the bench kneading time to something closer to 20-minutes...

Spiral mixer it is, then!    :-D
Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself.

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