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Author Topic: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time  (Read 862 times)

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Offline stamatis

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le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« on: February 16, 2019, 06:27:13 AM »
hello i want to use this flour http://www.le5stagioni.it/en/Prodotti/Farina-per-pizza-napoletana but i cant find the fermentation time.i go with traditional way:
1700-1800g flour
1 litr. water
50 salt
3g yeast
after mixing all how much time i must wait for 1st fermentation?
and after 1st fermentation (and after making balls) how much i must wait again?
thanks in advance guys..

Offline Yael

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2019, 07:29:14 AM »
Hello,

Well it depends on your RT but with this amount of yeast you can go from 10 to 18H I guess (assuming this is CY).
There is bulk fermentation and balled, you can make half half.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2019, 08:49:24 AM »
hello i want to use this flour http://www.le5stagioni.it/en/Prodotti/Farina-per-pizza-napoletana but i cant find the fermentation time.i go with traditional way:
1700-1800g flour
1 litr. water
50 salt
3g yeast
after mixing all how much time i must wait for 1st fermentation?
and after 1st fermentation (and after making balls) how much i must wait again?
thanks in advance guys..
Stamatis,

The flour you mentioned is a popular one to make Neapolitan style pizzas. You can see the specs at:

http://www.le5stagioni.it/Cms_Data/Contents/CinqueStagioni/Folders/Products/~contents/DDVJV64MDJJZNFNW/L5S_Scheda-P_Farina-00-Pizza-Napoletana.pdf

As you can see, the W value (deformation energy) is W= 300 -10 +20. Based on the list of W values given in the following post, and assuming that those values are correct, the W value for the Stagioni flour suggests that the dough can tolerate about fifteen hours of room temperature fermentation:

Reply 15 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4986.msg42545#msg42545.

However, in practice, there can be variations from the number given in the cited post due to factors such as actual room temperature, finished dough temperature, yeast quantities, whether a natural starter is used and its amount, seasonal variations, and so on. 

Peter

Offline stamatis

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2019, 09:27:42 AM »
Thank you so much both guys!!...i knew the w factor but i did not knew that w factor gives the fermentation hours,i appreciate yours answer.wish u the best.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2019, 10:06:46 AM »
Thank you so much both guys!!...i knew the w factor but i did not knew that w factor gives the fermentation hours,i appreciate yours answer.wish u the best.

No. That's not completely incorrect, and not what Peter said. The W gives some indication of how long you can ferment a dough before you overly weaken the gluten, but it's not a particularly good indicator of that either.

Fermentation time is a primarily a function of how much yeast you use and fermentation temperature. Other factors such as your workflow, dough hydration, and salt can also have an effect. As Yael suggested, there is no way to give you a good answer to your initial question without knowing your desired fermentation temperature and how well you can hold that temperature consistently. 

This table can help you find a starting place, but you should expect that some testing and tweaking may be necessary to figure out your formula/workflow/timing: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
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Offline stamatis

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2019, 11:14:28 AM »
OK ,for example i use stagioni type oo napoletana flour 1750g.
1053g water( almost 60%)
salt 53g (3%)
CY yeast 3,8g
After mixing i will rest entire dough for 2 hours.
After that i will make the balls and i will rest them for 12 hours at 20 degrees celcius..
Is this right?what do you think?Thanks!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2019, 11:49:08 AM »
Looks like a good place to start. Note what works and doesn't work then tweak and test again.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline stamatis

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2019, 11:54:09 AM »
ok!i will upload photos with results... :D

Offline stamatis

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2019, 10:13:03 AM »
the results guys.how do you think?(bake at uuni3 450 degrees)

Offline stamatis

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2019, 10:14:05 AM »
another one

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2019, 06:04:22 PM »
Nice!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Yael

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 08:09:32 AM »
Not bad!

If I were you, now I would try the same procedure but you ball 30 mn after kneading and CF overnight, then the next day you take the balls out 6~7H (RT 20°C) before baking. You can then see if there are significant flavor and texture differences.
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Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2019, 08:08:52 AM »
Not bad!

If I were you, now I would try the same procedure but you ball 30 mn after kneading and CF overnight, then the next day you take the balls out 6~7H (RT 20°C) before baking. You can then see if there are significant flavor and texture differences.
Why do you suggest a CF overnight and then RT for 6-7hrs?  From previous posts it seems that the RT gives the best flavour.

Offline Yael

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2019, 08:29:16 AM »
Why do you suggest a CF overnight and then RT for 6-7hrs?  From previous posts it seems that the RT gives the best flavour.

Actually this is what I've been doing recently, the timing is usually perfect for my dinner: the dough is at its sweet spot.
Again, as I said a lot recently (here for example: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57613.0;topicseen), IMHO it's important to bake at the sweet spot, regardless of the total fermentation time (12H, 24H, 48H, 72H...).
If I take my dough from the fridge 1H before baking after only one night CF (let's say around 15H CF + 1H RTF), my dough is not ready at all, and the result will be terrible.
Hope it helps!!  :-[
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Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2019, 09:34:18 AM »
Actually this is what I've been doing recently, the timing is usually perfect for my dinner: the dough is at its sweet spot.
Again, as I said a lot recently (here for example: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57613.0;topicseen), IMHO it's important to bake at the sweet spot, regardless of the total fermentation time (12H, 24H, 48H, 72H...).
If I take my dough from the fridge 1H before baking after only one night CF (let's say around 15H CF + 1H RTF), my dough is not ready at all, and the result will be terrible.
Hope it helps!!  :-[
Couldn't you just adjust the yeast %?  I do agree, finding that sweet spot is more important than the time I just thought ~65F was the best temperature for flavour


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Offline Yael

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Re: le 5 stagioni pizza napoletana flour fermentation time
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2019, 10:49:38 PM »
Couldn't you just adjust the yeast %?  I do agree, finding that sweet spot is more important than the time I just thought ~65F was the best temperature for flavour

Yes you could, for example when I make pizza in teglia/pizza pala, I add 0.5% yeast and proof a shorter time (you can have a look here: reply 15 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50472.msg576515#msg576515).
The thing is no matter how much yeast you add (not talking about insane amounts of course), your dough in the fridge will only move a little or not at all if your cold T° is low and steady, because the yeast is sleeping, and it wakes up when the T° is hotter right, so the more yeast you add, the quicker it will ferment when it wakes up.
But as you want a dough which is correctly fermented in accordance with your flour's gluten amount (so the gluten is correctly soften/weaken and can be digestible), you don't want to rush all the fermentation process by adding too much yeast.

PS: the RT value I wrote previously is just an indicator for the duration of the RTF, not the "best" temperature, meaning that could be 7H at 20°C, and 5H at 25°C etc.
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