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Author Topic: Low IDY = D.O.A.  (Read 704 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Low IDY = D.O.A.
« on: February 21, 2019, 04:34:44 PM »
Hi Tom,


Time for an experiment. And a fail. But I'm looking for the "why" I think I have an idea, but not really certain.


Problem: I usually use a 40% poolish and a fairly long CF usually with some RT component, though  sometimes  minimal, like just  a couple of hours. Lately though I've been using some higher hydration formulas, and find that the dough even though kept in a very cold fridge, is peaking too soon, well before my proposed bake day. Those high hydration doughs really do move things along..oh, and about 10% whole wheat in there accelerates even more


Okay, JPB, I said to myself, Try this: Keep the fermented flavor and the extended bake times..and the WW and the hydration,,by making an even larger percent of the dough as poolish. 50% poolish,. Very full developed, ad mixed keeping it cool even during mix. Finished dough temperature was 64F (and between stretch/folds, I kept the dough covered in the fridge.   Here are specs   100% All Trumps (no whole wheat for the test), 70% hydration,    .02% IDY all in poolish,   3% oil, 2.7 salt, 2 sugar.


No bulk, just mixed, balled, into cold fridge. By day 3  I thought I should see how things were coming. Uh, not coming, really. Tried pushing one ball in the proofer...almost no rise, just a few sad little bubbles. Then counter hold, then forget it I tossed it.


Today, day 4, I took the second  ball,  Basement at 60F, then proofer for at 76F, then more counter time...It was sad, a number of pathetic bubbles on bottom, a few more   on top (that's not good). Took the dough out and it was a nice slimy, oily mess, then stretched briefly and tore rapidly.


Ugh.


So, was this the cause? At the tiny yeast level, even  with a 50% poolish  , was there just not enough action created to form decent gluten? I can easily go many days with that yeast amount, but first time I ever tried by keeping it cold the whole time. Guess that doesn't work?


Is there any way to judge how much the extra hydration caused my fermentation to accelerate. For example, with a 64 HR dough I might go a total of 10 hours at room temperature, 5 in front and 5 later, with 4-7 days of CF and have great results..but those first five hours are setting the stage, right? I had my actors working on a bare stage. So they performed their death scene :-D :o


I'm thinking that to tweak this, rather than add more IDY, which shortens my shelf life, I should try varying amounts of RT to get things going, ?


Does that (or any of this) make sense?


Thanks Tom!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 06:22:17 PM »
With all things combined, cold dough temperature, low IDY and high salt I'm guessing that the yeast really wasn't able to do much so there would have been little to no biochemical gluten development. Maybe experiment with increased finished dough temps...shoot for 75F to see if that helps.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 06:37:23 PM »
Thanks Tom...will do

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2019, 10:17:42 PM »
Tom,


So far, not quite working out. Tried an identical dough, with FDT of 67F.   Hand-mixed with several rounds of stretch and folds over 2.5 hour period. Dough kept in 70F proofer during this time, then balled and  to CF at 36F. Almost immediately it was clear it was moving along too fast. By 36 hours really looking not so great...well, pretty much ready to bake, but i wanted the dough to be used used 5 days out. Held in freezer for three hours to slow down then back to CF.  We'll see, but it's not a plan for the next time.


Thinking maybe the only way to control this is by either using less hydration...which would be different pie,  or changing the amount of preferment..Is this correct?


I have been using 43% of total formula flour in poolish. If I drop that to 22%., how much might I expect it to change the flavor?


Also, with SD levain, the fermentation time is controlled by total levain, not percentage of seed starter. Is this true with a poolish? Is fermentation time decided by amount of preferment..or by original amount of yeast?


Thanks!

Offline HansB

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2019, 10:48:38 PM »
Bill, do you even need to use a poolish when making a dough to be used 5 days out? My understanding of a poolish is that it is used to develop structure, flavor and to reduce the time between mixing and baking?
Hans

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 12:28:55 AM »
I wondered that too, Hans...then I did side by side taste tests and the poolish still won ( to my taste)  by a mile. There might be some actual normal reason, or it might just be me.  I thought the difference was very pronounced. Maybe it's because my poolish percentage is pretty large.

Offline HansB

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 07:48:18 AM »
I'm trying to think through your process. Are you intending to use your poolish as a leaven, like an SD starter?
Hans

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 12:10:07 PM »
Not really..but that's what I'm asking Tom here. Is the pooish by its fairly high volume in the recipe, acting as a whole as far as fermentation...as a levain does, regardless of its inoculation to some extent..or is the rate of fermentation strictly dependent on total amount of yeast. 


I'm trying to control the fermentation rate on the higher hydration doughs..they're moving like racehorses! And just a few points of hydration has seemed to make a very large difference. That's my guess, anyway

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 12:45:04 PM »
With a poolish you are also adding acids in addition to fermenting yeasts and bacteria so, depending upon the pH of the poolish it could very well be acidifying the dough which would result in accelerated fermentation due to the acidified dough.
A poolish, can impart a different flavor from a regular yeast leavened dough just like a liquid ferment (brew) produces a different finished flavor than a yeast leavened straight dough process. As for like or dislike, it all depends upon where your taste preferences lie.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline CaptBob

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 01:18:16 PM »
I wondered that too, Hans...then I did side by side taste tests and the poolish still won ( to my taste)  by a mile. There might be some actual normal reason, or it might just be me.  I thought the difference was very pronounced. Maybe it's because my poolish percentage is pretty large.

Bill.....do you put all of the formula IDY in the poolish or split it between that and the final dough mix??

Edit: sorry Bill...I just reread your first post and see it all goes in the poolish.....
« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 01:22:33 PM by CaptBob »
Bob

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 02:40:13 PM »
Thanks Tom...that makes sense. .I tend to go with a pretty active poolish. I do like those flavors so I'll experiment some . I'll try dropping the poolish quantity and see if that helps.  Ultimately i may have to go fewer days.  Thanks!

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2019, 05:46:40 PM »
Tom,


This batch made it through okay, but the timing was getting pretty close. Fingers were crossed the last couple of days that the dough would hang in there.


BS pie baked at day 4, the other in home oven on day 5, Whatever fermentation science (magic?) is happening there, it's a pretty flavorful  dough  :)


Reply 108 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54900.100

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2019, 10:21:28 AM »
Tom,


So the next thing I tried was cutting the already tiny quantity of yeast, by half. After adding a fridge-cooled poolish, my finished dough temperature was 64F.  After mixing, the dough spent 9 hours in bulk at 61F, then fridged and balled. Almost two days later, still very little action so the dough was given 9 more hours at RT 61-62, then back to fridge. On day 6, the dough had 3 hours of counter time before baking. There were plenty of small and medium size bubbles visible on bottom of container. Dough baked in home oven, flavor nice, though nothing amazing, texture fine but not airy at all like I prefer it.   If I can guess what happened here, it's that .01% IDY extended over 6 days, is not a formula for success, and the IDY long since gave up the ghost.


Next thing to try is going back to original huge amount of IDY .02%   :-D  try to not have finished temp much exceed 60-4F


Thanks!

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 09:10:23 PM »
Welllll..................


So I have been trying diligently to see what's going on...why now,   my dough is just moving along way too fast. I tried cooler water temperatures, shorter times where the dough was at room temperature during mix, reduced IDY, and reduced poolish by 50%. Still, the dough fermented relentlessly..not disastrous, still mostly baked up nicely , but my long CF plan was getting shortchanged.


Why, why, why, why, why, why?


I think I  know.


Tonight I checked the fridge temperature setting. 5 degrees too warm


I hope my guess is on he mark!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 09:41:28 PM by Jersey Pie Boy »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2019, 01:39:34 AM »
5F could put you into the 40 to 45F or higher range depending upon at what temperature you keep your fridge set at.You say you used colder water temperature, how much colder? How much did it lower/reduce the finished dough temperature? If your dough didn't seem to want to stop/slow down with regard to the fermentation rate I'm guessing that your fridge got into the mid to high 40's and couldn't cool the dough sufficiently so as the dough continued to ferment it continued to increase in temperature due to heat of metabolism which continued to drive fermentation at an increasingly faster rate.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Low IDY = D.O.A.
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2019, 05:03:45 AM »
 When I've previously measured the fridge temperature in the section I use for long fermentation, it's  been around 34. This tiime, 39F    The finished dough temperatures was  usually 64-67

The prefermented  flour is 40% of total formula flour ...that's a pretty big factor in the rate of overall fermentation, correct?



 Thanks Tom, hopefully I'm on track. More dough on the way  :)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2019, 06:23:58 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »

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