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Offline Frenchy2000

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25kg bag questions
« on: February 22, 2019, 10:49:59 PM »
Hello I'm back!

Learnt a lot the past few months, and major thanks to the Dough Dr, Norma and Yaell. I'll post some pics later.

I've used up all my flour and the store I order it from doesn't have my 1kg bags at the moment. Only 25kg (Caputo Nuvola Super.)   :-X

Now I've got no one here to split up the flour with, so I'm wondering if it's safe to buy a 25kg bag to last me through out the year (providing the expiry date is far enough of course).

Will I have any issue in keeping the flour intact and usable after 6-10 months? Regarding humidity or bugs or god knows what..

Many thanks.  :chef:

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2019, 11:36:55 PM »
Frenchy2000;
This same question has been addressed a number of times so you might want to look through the archives here to get a bigger picture of what others do.
My approach is to break the large bag down into smaller bags which I label and store in the freezer. When I'm ready to use the flour I remove a bag and allow it to warm back to ambient for at least 24-hours before opening the bag. Then you can use from the opened bag for a month or more. That which is stored in the freezer will remain good to use for a very long time, at least 10-years. I do not recommend storing flour for much more than a few weeks at room temperature unless you are fond of salt and pepper flour aka "buggy" flour. Additionally, once the flour has been frozen for a period of 30-days or more, not just in the freezer, but FROZEN, so consider 45-days in this case, it can be removed from the freezer and stored in an insect proof container for several months. This flour will not develop an insect infestation due to any intact insect eggs or larvae in the flour as the long term freezing will kill them but it is still prone to infestation from the outside, hence the insect proof containers. Now the only thing that will happen over the next few months will be natural oxidation of the flour. as close as we have been able to determine, this natural oxidation, over a 12-month period, is about the same as adding 15 to 20-ppm potassium bromate to the flour. This means that the flour will exhibit greater strength characteristics over time which may manifest itself by increased dough memory/snap-back and possibly greater oven spring characteristics. If you want to prevent the oxidation issue the only option you have is to keep the flour frozen until you're ready to use it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Jackitup

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2019, 11:37:35 PM »
Gallon ziplock bags in a cool dark shelf in the basement, freezer, or if you have vacuum packing machine use that! Should be fine.
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2019, 12:45:00 AM »
Frenchy2000;
This same question has been addressed a number of times so you might want to look through the archives here to get a bigger picture of what others do.
My approach is to break the large bag down into smaller bags which I label and store in the freezer. When I'm ready to use the flour I remove a bag and allow it to warm back to ambient for at least 24-hours before opening the bag. Then you can use from the opened bag for a month or more. That which is stored in the freezer will remain good to use for a very long time, at least 10-years. I do not recommend storing flour for much more than a few weeks at room temperature unless you are fond of salt and pepper flour aka "buggy" flour. Additionally, once the flour has been frozen for a period of 30-days or more, not just in the freezer, but FROZEN, so consider 45-days in this case, it can be removed from the freezer and stored in an insect proof container for several months. This flour will not develop an insect infestation due to any intact insect eggs or larvae in the flour as the long term freezing will kill them but it is still prone to infestation from the outside, hence the insect proof containers. Now the only thing that will happen over the next few months will be natural oxidation of the flour. as close as we have been able to determine, this natural oxidation, over a 12-month period, is about the same as adding 15 to 20-ppm potassium bromate to the flour. This means that the flour will exhibit greater strength characteristics over time which may manifest itself by increased dough memory/snap-back and possibly greater oven spring characteristics. If you want to prevent the oxidation issue the only option you have is to keep the flour frozen until you're ready to use it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Gallon ziplock bags in a cool dark shelf in the basement, freezer, or if you have vacuum packing machine use that! Should be fine.

Thanks Tom and Jackitup,

Sorry I did search through the archives as always before posting, but couldn't find the answers I was looking for. I'll search harder next time.  :)

As for your recommendations they're great but unfortunately I live in an apartment and do not have a dedicated freezer...only the one from the fridge which is way too small to accommodate 25kg. I'm considering the big vacuum bag to suck out all the air once the bag open, and put it away somewhere cool and dark. But it won't be as cold as a freezer obviously.

« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 12:56:14 AM by Frenchy2000 »

Offline Jackitup

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2019, 01:01:36 AM »
Do you have a friend with a freezer that would lend you some space?
Even in an apartment a small freezer is a great investment for very little money, well worth it, takes up little space! Get an upright, much easier to keep organized!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2019, 01:20:42 AM »
Do you have a friend with a freezer that would lend you some space?
Even in an apartment a small freezer is a great investment for very little money, well worth it, takes up little space! Get an upright, much easier to keep organized!

No I just moved to a small town. Friendless at the moment  :-D and don't have enough space for an extra freezer unfortunately. I guess that vaccuum bag is my only option, and if it goes bad then too bad...

Previously I did use flour that was 3 months past the expiry date, and still had good results. So I'll give it a shot.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2019, 05:41:20 PM »
As for baking results in a home baking environment you probably won't see too much difference BUT you might want to think about buying a cheap flour sifter as this will keep you informed of any unwanted infestation problem which potentially could crop up. Look for the little cigarette and confused flour beetles as well as Indian meal moth whose presence is identified by its web which results in what we see as clumping of the flour. Also look for any larvae that might be present. My advice to home bakers is to sift the flour after a month and turn the screenings (anything that didn't go through the sifting screen) onto a clean paper towel where you can inspect it for insect presence. If consuming a few bugs doesn't bother you disregard the above, they won't hurt you, just a little added protein in your diet.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline megan45

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2019, 06:46:10 PM »
Don't know if you can get food grade plastic buckets and Gamma Seal Lids or something similar is OZ, but I've using them to store flour for at least 10 years (that is, the buckets and lids are 10+ years old, not the flour. ;)) Two 5-gallon (19-liter) buckets will comfortably hold 25kg of flour. I store at room temperature, and haven't run into buggy flour yet. YMMV. FWIW, I go through anywhere from 25-40 kg of flour in a year.

Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2019, 08:53:53 PM »
As for baking results in a home baking environment you probably won't see too much difference BUT you might want to think about buying a cheap flour sifter as this will keep you informed of any unwanted infestation problehttps://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/Smileys/enhanced/lipsrsealed.gifm which potentially could crop up. Look for the little cigarette and confused flour beetles as well as Indian meal moth whose presence is identified by its web which results in what we see as clumping of the flour. Also look for any larvae that might be present. My advice to home bakers is to sift the flour after a month and turn the screenings (anything that didn't go through the sifting screen) onto a clean paper towel where you can inspect it for insect presence. If consuming a few bugs doesn't bother you disregard the above, they won't hurt you, just a little added protein in your diet.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Don't know if you can get food grade plastic buckets and Gamma Seal Lids or something similar is OZ, but I've using them to store flour for at least 10 years (that is, the buckets and lids are 10+ years old, not the flour. ;)) Two 5-gallon (19-liter) buckets will comfortably hold 25kg of flour. I store at room temperature, and haven't run into buggy flour yet. YMMV. FWIW, I go through anywhere from 25-40 kg of flour in a year.

Thank you Dr and OH god...I had a bit of flour left in a box, that I used for my dough before opening as flour bath....I just checked that flour...
EVERYTHING Tom just described, the left over flour had it. Which means the past 6 pizzas or more I hate were made with this 'contaminated' flour.  :-X

The small flour lumps which I thought were due to the flour been expired...the tiny tiny tiny tiny things moving in the flour...it's been 4 days since that last pie and I feel alright but jesus have I learnt to check my flour next time! Thank you Tom!!

Also thanks Megan, it's encouraging seeing that you haven't had any problem with flour stored at room temp. I think I'll use your bucket idea and seal, and make sure I sift it before using it. I don't need the extra added protein!!! Even though they say (scientists) that we're all going to eat bugs one day.  :-D


Offline Jackitup

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2019, 09:29:57 PM »
We all eat bugs EVERYDAY! I've told vegetarians for years that they eat more bugs and animals in their granola, peanut butter, flour and cereal than they would believe!!!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2019, 10:02:13 PM »
Amen to that!  ^^^
Remember the discussions we recently had concerning insect fragment counts in flour.
An interesting point: Figs, the flower of the fig tree is pollinated only by mites (fig mites), they cannot be separated from the figs during processing so fig mite fragments are present in fig past at a high count. This is allowed so long as they are "fragments" meaning that they have been processed and not introduced post processing of the fig. I happen to have a fond liking for Fig Newtons and when our kids were small I used to tell my wife and kids this story embellished with: "Now you know why Fig Newtons are kinds crunchy inside". Those Fig Newtons were ALL MINE from that point on. OK, truth is it was the fig seeds (like sesame seeds) that make it crunchy), none of them will eat Fig Newtons to this day.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2019, 11:03:24 PM »
Amen to that!  ^^^
Remember the discussions we recently had concerning insect fragment counts in flour.
An interesting point: Figs, the flower of the fig tree is pollinated only by mites (fig mites), they cannot be separated from the figs during processing so fig mite fragments are present in fig past at a high count. This is allowed so long as they are "fragments" meaning that they have been processed and not introduced post processing of the fig. I happen to have a fond liking for Fig Newtons and when our kids were small I used to tell my wife and kids this story embellished with: "Now you know why Fig Newtons are kinds crunchy inside". Those Fig Newtons were ALL MINE from that point on. OK, truth is it was the fig seeds (like sesame seeds) that make it crunchy), none of them will eat Fig Newtons to this day.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Yes you were mentioning the part about "acceptable levels" and someone actually posted a US government document that described how many percents of rodent and insect "parts and hairs" were acceptable.  :o :o :o

Offline Jackitup

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Re: 25kg bag questions
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2019, 11:05:39 PM »
If I remember right, and I'm sure you can quote it by rote, federal guidelines are written something like this.........pretty much any food, particularly grains and flours have a "tolerable limit of insect parts, rodent hairs and rodent droppings in and on the product". Including pesticides, herbicides, fungicides and other chemicals to keep the critters at bay. Frankly, for the most part, I think we're better off with the critters, we've lived with them a lot longer than the chemicals!🤣
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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