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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2019, 08:52:43 PM »
High Protein Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.48%

Using the recipe suggestions from reply #15 - I made two (2) batches of dough.
 
One batch using a 12 1/2% protein Winona patent flour - the second being a High Gluten bread flour.

12 inch pies from 14.5 ounce balls. Baked at 550 degree F for 7 min ( turn at 4 min)

Test results showed the appearance of both pizza's are almost identical.
However the HG flour did have a slight gum line. See photos.

The mouth feel of the HG flour had a crunch that was missing in the Winona flour. Also the center thickness on the HG flour was half that of the Winona flour allowing the flavors of the topping to not be over powered by excess dough as was the case with the Winona flour.
 
In some ways the Winona Patent flour gave the best results. A thicker airy outside crust. What was disappointing was a 3/8 to 1/2 center crust.  Far to thick. (see last photo #6 for a comparison of thickness) I believe the extra thickness of the dough is why the Pie made with the HG flour had the better taste. The extra dough thickness on the Winona flour pizza changed the flavor profile diminishing the flavors of the topping.
 
Refrigerated fermentation was 4-5 days. Tempered in a room at 78 F for four (4) hours. Opened dough at 72 F.
 
Both dough's pushed out easy, crust area was a bit delicate, careful not to deflate rim as I use a right/left hand slapping method to expand dough. No sign of gas bubbles.
 
The Winona flour produced a very nice dough.  Soft to the bite - But no crunch as with the HG flour. With the 50% of Cornicione having the nice medium to large air holes.

Next: Another test using the Winona Patent flour made into a 12.5 ounce to 14 ounce dough size to reduce the center thickness. And possibly a 50/50 mix of flours in an attempt to combine the qualities of both.

Thanks Pete-zza for all your help on this one.  :chef:
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:06:02 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2019, 09:22:48 PM »
Testing a New dough formulation:

This dough can be used next day, however flavor will greatly improve by day three and usability has shown stable up to day six. Another quality I like is the length of time this dough remains workable at room temperatures.
In this test I had dough sitting out in 75 degrees for 4 1/2 hours.
 
Nice crunch to the crust, with outstanding flavor, with a bit of a chew. It's slow to push out, will tolerate a great deal of handling, possibly more water, oil or both may help in the ease of forming.
 
Sauce this time was “Classico” traditional sweet basil put through blender to smooth out chunks.
Toppings: Local "Mild Italian" sausage, mushrooms & cheese.
----------------------------------------------------------------
100%   Winona Patent flour
60%     Water
0.3%    IDY – ˝ teaspoon
1.5%    Salt
2%       Olive oil

3-10 ounce balls - Fermented 5 days.
Tempered 4 ˝ hours @ 75F ambient temp
550 degree F -  7 min bake


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 01:13:47 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2019, 09:02:52 AM »

Thanks Pete-zza for all your help on this one.  :chef:
John,

I'm glad the PJ clone dough formulation worked out for you. We really don't know exactly what flour PJ is using, and I suspect that PJ has made several flour changes over the years and has many potential suppliers, but the Winona flour you used from Bay State Milling looks like it might come close:

http://www.baystatemilling.com/ingredients/flour/traditional-bakery/

I also like the looks of your most recent pizza. I think the modest hydration value you used (60%) may have helped the dough hold out longer. The higher protein content of the Winona flour, which is milled from hard wheat, may also have helped.

Peter

Offline Park.Pizza

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2019, 01:09:23 PM »
Pics look great. But I'd probably ask for a little more sauce. Just my novice opinion.
Throw me a slice, won't ya

Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #24 on: April 12, 2019, 08:25:29 PM »
During the past three weeks I've remade one basic dough three times. With each batch designed to test the reliability of a six day dough. Each test taking six days.

The bakes produced fairly consistent results with some slight variations.  My preferred results are on days 5 &6

After mixing the dough I would bulk ferment at room temp until double in size, then place the container in the refrigerator. on day three I then scaled and balled - returning to refrigeration, and started baking on days 4,5,6. & once on day 7 shown below in photos.

Tempering time was always 2 to 3 hours at ambient room temp of 72F.
Seven min bake @ 550 F. electric oven on 3/8 inch steel plate.

My next test will be to bulk ferment at room temp until double in size as I have done before. But this time scaling and shaping dough balls then refrigerating until time for baking.  ( before scaling & balling was done after 4 days bulk fermentation)

In the past skipping the bulk fermentation has resulted in a crust with much smaller air holes. It should not make a difference - but it has in these test.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 09:22:29 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2019, 09:35:42 PM »
For those that want to duplicate this pizza here are the changes I have made in the mixing of this dough since my first post.

Thickness factor 0.097
571g - 100% of a 12.5 % protein flour (Winona Patent flour)
343g -  60% Tap water at between 50 - 55F
            0.3 % INDY 1/2 teaspoon (saf-instant)
9g -    1.5% salt - kosher
12g -   2% Olive oil

Makes 3 - 11 ounce balls
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Water temp 50 - 55 F
Add INDY and stir using dough hook and measure flour.
Add flour & mix about two min at speed two (2) until a shaggy ball forms. Cover Hobart mixer & Autolyse 30 min.
Add oil and salt - mix at speed two (2) - four to six min - final dough temp should fall between 73 to 78 F
Set in plastic container cover and set out room temp until doubles in bulk. This often takes 3 to 4 hours.
Place container in refig. 34-36 F. for three to four days.  Scale and ball 24 hours before using dough.
I make 3 balls at a time and often start baking on days 4,5,6

Topping load:
4 ounce sauce
5 ounce cheese
Pepperoni or mild Italian sausage

Baked on 12 inch screen. Pushed out using a bench flour mixed from 3 parts rice flour / 1 part pizza flour

7 min @ 550 F (four min - turn 180 degrees - bake additional 3 min)
« Last Edit: April 13, 2019, 09:24:13 PM by Buck47 »
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Offline foreplease

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2019, 11:09:45 PM »
Fantastic work and experimenting! Your posts are fun to read.
-Tony

Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #27 on: April 18, 2019, 09:38:06 AM »
Test of six day dough made on Saturday April 13 - baked on day (4) four April 17
See Reply #25 for detailed info on making this dough

After mixing the dough was bulk fermented at room temp until double in size as I have done before.
 
But this time instead of placing the dough container in the refrigerator to continue fermentation until I would scale & ball  24 hours before baking.  I shaped the dough balls then refrigerated until time for baking. Hence the bulk fermentation at room temp was only that time after mixing that it took the dough to rise to double in size.

In the past I tried skipping the bulk fermentation - scaling and balling directly after mixing then refrigerating only to find the resulting crust had much smaller air holes. It should not make a difference - but it has in these test.

Note: this post will be followed with photos of the five & six day bake from this dough.



« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 10:19:24 PM by Buck47 »
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #28 on: April 19, 2019, 09:39:47 PM »
 Photos of the five & six day bake

Photos of the last two days of six day dough made on Saturday April 13 - baked on day (5) five April 18 & day (6) six April 19.

I find dough baked on days 5 & 6 produce the best crust with the largest air holes.

See Reply #25 for detailed info on making this dough

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion:    
This is the style pizza I set out to make.
 
Excellent complex flavor crust, light airy cornicione with large holes.
Has a long tempering time (up to 4 hours room temp 72F)
Usable window days 4-5-6
Easy and forgiving when pushing out to a 12 inch dia.

NOTE: I have changed the final mixing procedure when the salt & oil are added to the dough ball in my Kitchen aid mixer.  I was having problems with the dough ball being sticky, and sometimes hand kneed until I achieved a proper consistency dough.

Now I find that after adding the oil & salt - mixing at speed (4) - 2 to 3 min does a fine job of incorporating the oil. I then drop back to speed 2 & continue mixing for a total time of 8 min.

This has not increased the final dough temp. I'm consistently ending at 73 to 78 degree depending on if I start with 50 or 55 degree water. This is in a ambient room temp of between 68 to 74 F


   

« Last Edit: April 21, 2019, 11:07:39 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2019, 10:20:17 AM »
The Pizza Shop is now completed and in use.  Just in time for cool weather and another round of pizza making. 

After reading through old post on how NY style pizza circa 1940's /1950's I have made a few changes to my recipe.

100% Winona Patent flour
64 % Water
.5% IDY
2.0% Kosher Salt
2.0% Olive oil

Refig. dough 48 to 96 hours / bake at 550F 6 to 7 min

Results:  Fluffy crunchy, airy crust, with large air holes. Complex taste of fermented dough.  Easy to open at 55 F. ( overall a very nice dough)


 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 10:38:53 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline foreplease

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2019, 10:48:48 AM »
What a great setup! Good to see you posting again, Buck. Can’t wait to see what this season brings.
-Tony

Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2019, 11:03:46 AM »
Results from a 72 hour dough: Once again

100% Winona Patent flour
64 % Water
.5% IDY
2.0% Kosher Salt
2.0% Olive oil

Refig. dough 48 to 96 hours / bake at 550F to 575F - 6 to 7 min

Results:  Fluffy crunchy, airy crust, with large air holes. Complex taste of fermented dough.  Easy to open at 55 F. ( overall a very nice dough)"  This dough is designed to have a "Sweet Spot" between 48 to 72 hours.

 
The inspiration for this pizza came from the many post on (RE: Evolution of the NY style Pizza) & ( RE: NY style : Rim Characteristics)
A special thanks to all that have helped guide me, Especially!
Tom Lehmann
Pete-zza
norma427
Waltertore

I could not have found my way with out your contributions to this web site.

 



« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 11:44:09 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline apizza

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2019, 12:01:59 PM »
Fantastic Buck. I agree with your list and will add your name to my list.
Marty

Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2019, 06:16:23 PM »
1950's N.Y. Style Pizza with a puffy/airy, soft crust.
A soft dough that opens easy.
The 48 to 72 hour ferment produces a crust with complex full flavor.


100% WInona Mills Patent flour - 12 1/2% protein - bromated 
63% water 
.5 %    IDY: 1 tsp
2.0 %  Salt Kosher
2.0 %  Canola oil

Adjust water temp with flour for target finished temp 78 to 80 degree F.
144  minus flour temp = water temp
Example: (144 - 68 F flour temp = water temp of 76 degrees)
 
Water and salt into KA mixing bowl.  Stir until dissolved. On Stir speed add flour then yeast mix just until all flour is picked up - shaggy dough.

Add oil and continue to mix one min. at low speed. Then mix at speed three for 10 min. until dough has developed a smooth skin. Measure final dough temp - Target 78 to 80 F.

Scale and ball.  Lightly oil tops and cross stack in refrig. 2 hours.
Then close lids and store. Sweet spot on this dough is 48 to 72 hours when refrigerated at between 34 and 38 degrees F.

Preheat one hour - Bakers Pride P22S Oven to 550 F
At room temp dough can warm to 57 to 60 degrees in one hour to one and a half hours.
Open dough and dress on wooded peel, using a "Bench Flour" of 3 parts rice flour/ 1 part pizza flour
Launch directly on lower stone for 3 min. Transfer to screen turn 180 degrees and bake for two more min on top stone.

All other pizzas in this tread where baked on a screen. This last round of Pizza's are the first launching directly on the bottom stone. I believe the extra heat transfer is responsible for the wonderful oven spring and overall final crust texture. Moving the pie onto a screen after 3 min and completing the bake for an additional 2 min does a fine job of browning the cheese and completing the bake. This method has changed a 6 to 7 min bake into a 4 1/2 to 5 min bake.  Hence the remarkable change in crust texture. Gone are the days of a chewy crust. 

The mixing sequence is very important and does a good job of incorporating the oil into the dough. Note: the initial bake is done for three min directly on the bottom 550 F stone.  The final 2 min is done on a screen at a higher temp (575 F) on the top stone. The screen prevents the bottom from burning.

I have made this dough over a dozen times (36 pies) in the past few weeks and find it produces consistent results.  The 1% change in hydration, adding the oil at a different time and increased mixing times & speed produces a dough that has a smooth outer skin that is easy to handle and is not sticky when scaling and balling.

I have opened dough balls at 50 degrees but prefer to let dough warm to 60 to 65  degrees as I find the 10/15 degrees difference  improves the handling characteristics.

All around a very nice dough.

Regards: john 
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 06:49:14 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2019, 10:14:09 AM »
Advice from Tom Lehmann & Pete-zza:
 
A compilation of advice I have found helpful. Bits and pieces that to me made all the difference.


"I am constantly in awe of what is going on beneath the skin of a dough ball" Quote: Pete-zza @ Pizza Making Forum

How long and at what speed to mix dough?
Many home type mixers are actually pretty efficient at mixing dough so don't count them out as inefficient, also we can make up the difference in time by mixing at a higher speed (more rpm). While mixing is important from a commercial point of view in that it allows for faster, easier handling of the dough (a sticky dough really bogs things down in a pizzeria when we're trying to scale and ball the dough) it is not nearly as critical when making pizzas at home as we are dealing with only a few pizzas at a time. Remember, the main reason for mixing to get that dry, smooth skin is to facilitate dough handling only. The reason for developing (mixing) the dough until it develops a smooth skin is to reduce the stickiness and amount of dusting flour required during the scaling and balling (rounding) process. Even at that level of gluten development the dough is still far from fully developed so there is little or nothing to be gained from mixing it any less.

If you want to optimize an open cell structure you should concentrate on optimizing the dough absorption for the type of pizza you're making as well as the baking characteristics of your oven.

NOTE to Self: Also launching directly onto a well heated 550 degree stone for the initial bake time will optimize the rise in the dough and shorten the total bake time resulting in a softer fluffy/airy cornice.
The longer the bake time the chewer and tougher the crust - as the moisture is baked out of the dough.

For a less chewy finished crust I suggest using a lower protein, bread type flour with a protein content in the 12 to 12.8% range in conjunction with 48 to 72-hours cold fermentation time.

Adjust the finished dough temperature by manipulating the water temperature up or down as needed to give you a finished dough temperature in the 70 to 75F range. When adjusting the water temperature move it in 5F increments.

Tempering before pushing out dough. 
  With the lid on, It'll take a couple of hours. You are not looking for room temperature, instead, you allow the dough to temper AT room temperature until it reaches 50F (for pizzerias) or 60F for home pizza making. Mind you, these are all internal dough ball temperatures we're talking about here, not surface temperatures so you'll need to poke them with a stem type thermometer.
Once the tempering period is right, you will have a window of opportunity to use the dough of about 3 to 4-hours (all the while keeping the dough covered at room temperature.
This is assuming you have a shop at about 70 to 75F. If you shop is warmer, your opportunity to use the dough will be shorter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
 
Notes on Cold Fermentation:
In order to make the best healthy pizza dough, you have to ferment accordingly to your flour's strength. There are flours with a lot of gluten-forming proteins -specially American flours- and the more the gluten (strength), the longer the fermentation. So the flour will determine your fermentation length.

Let's say that with a 12% protein flour it's better to make 18-24 hour (Room Temperature fermentation) or 48/72 hour (Cold fermentation). {two or three day Refrigeration time}

If you make a Cold Fermentation dough and store at (32 to 39 F), the amount of yeast is not the most important because with the cold yeast is sleeping, so you can add 0.4% to 1% as Tom says, there will not be a big difference. However: One of the differences will be when you take the dough out of the fridge prior to baking: the more yeast you added in the dough, the faster it will wake up and be ready to bake.

Refig Temp:
The proper temp range for most pizza shops is 33 to 39 degrees.

Stacking fresh made dough: 
Take the dough directly to the bench for scaling and balling, place into plastic dough boxes, oil the top of each dough ball, cross-stack the dough boxes in the cooler for 2.5-hours if your dough weight is 16-ounces or less.
Note: Another method is to measure the internal dough ball temperature, when it reaches 45F the dough boxes can be down stacked/nested for overnight storage.

How to Check for a Gum Line?
Turn the pizza slice upside down and using a razor blade or sharp box knife, carefully cut through the crust from heel to point, then fold so both cut surfaces are exposed (greasy sides together), if you have a gum line you will see a distinct gray area just below the sauce. If you see just a paper thin gray line, this is normal and you do not have a gum line. I normally do this test about 3 to 5-minutes after removing the pizza from the oven.
 
Tom Lehman's Dough Management Procedure

1. Determine water temperature needed to give a finished (mixed) dough temperature of 70 to 75F. With a room & flour temperature of 72F, this will typically require a water temperature of 72F using a planetary mixer. (144 minus {flour temp} = water temp.)
2. Add the water to the mixing bowl.
3. Add salt and sugar (if used) to the water. Stir to dissolve Kosher salt
4. Add the flour and then add the yeast.
5. Mix until flour is picked up / shaggy dough aprox two minutes at low speed (stir), then add the oil and mix for one more minute in low speed.
6. Then mix for 10 to 12 minutes at speed between 2 & 4 on KA.
The idea is to mix the dough just until it takes on a smooth appearance.
7. Check the finished dough temperature (it should be in the 73 to 78F range).
8. Take the dough directly to the bench for scaling and rounding/balling.
9. The dough should be cut and balled within a 20-minute time period.
10. As soon as the dough is formed into balls, place in plastic dough boxes and wipe the top of the dough balls with salad oil.
11. Immediately take the dough boxes to the cooler and cross stack them.
12. Allow the dough boxes to remain cross stacked in the cooler for 2 hours, then down stack and nest the dough boxes.
13. The dough will be ready to use after 48 hours in the cooler.
14. To use the dough, remove about a 3-hour supply of dough from the cooler, leave it in the covered dough boxes and allow it to temper AT room temperature for 60 to 90-minutes, then begin shaping the dough into pizza skins for immediate use.Check center of dough with meat thermometer - opens best between 55 to 65F.
15. The dough will remain good to use for up to 3 hours after you first begin using it.
16. Any dough remaining in the cooler will keep for up to 2 more days.

Question:
Our pizzas become soggy soon after baking, and our delivery and carryout customers have been complaining. What can we do to get a consistently crispier pizza?

Answer:
This is one of those questions that I get a lot. Pizza can become soggy shortly after baking for any number of reasons, but let’s discuss the three most likely causes.
(A) Failure to allow the pizza to “steam off” after baking is probably the most common reason for loss of crispiness. Immediately upon removing the pizza from the oven, you’ll want to place it on a wire cooling rack or a pizza screen. This will allow the steam to escape from the pizza rather than letting it get forced back into the crust, which is what will make it lose its crisp. Leave it on the rack for about 30 seconds to one minute at most.
(B) Pizza can also lose its crispiness if it’s baked at an excessively high temperature. In this case, the pizza’s crust will have only a very thin layer of crispiness; once this thin layer absorbs moisture, its crisp is quickly diminished or lost completely. That’s why pizzas that are baked quickly in a very hot oven are fine for dine-in but tend to become soft and soggy in a delivery-carryout (DELCO) application. Boxing a DELCO pizza holds in all that steam for an extended period of time, leading to a softer, soggier pizza. The problem gets worse when the box is placed in an insulated delivery bag!
(B) The third most common reason for a soggy pizza is the use of too much sugar in the dough formulation. Excess sugar impacts the pizza’s retention of crispiness in a number of ways. First, it yields a crust that colors faster, resulting in a shorter baking time, which definitely impacts crispiness. Then there’s the problem of residual sugar in the crust, especially in the browned portion, where the sugar becomes concentrated due to the lower moisture content. In this case, the sugar, being hygroscopic (meaning it absorbs or attracts moisture from the air), readily pulls moisture from both the inner crumb portion of the crust as well as the environment around the crust—which is highly moisture-laden immediately after baking—resulting in, once again, a loss of crispiness!
Tom  Lehman

Note to Others: 
In a few places I have made slight adjustments to times and temp that fit my equipment and environment.  For instance Tom stated the salt can be added directly to the water and need not be stirred - I use kosher salt and mix it in the water before adding the flour.  :chef:
« Last Edit: December 11, 2019, 02:46:07 PM by Buck47 »
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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2019, 01:11:39 PM »
Seeing your set up has me dead set on getting my own home and building a pizza garage!

You just did what I've been longing to do for a few years now.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2019, 09:23:08 AM »
Minolta Rokkor:
The outside dimensions are rather small only 6 feet by 10 feet.  I would think it could be built in a corner of a garage easy. 
A garage would also give area for tables and chairs when entertaining. Best of luck with your plans. 

Here is a photo of the make station.
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Offline Buck47

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Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2019, 10:02:45 PM »
Friday night is pizza night. 
Recipe continues to produce the style of pizza I enjoy.
Crust has a slight crunch, with soft fluffy airy inside texture. 
Bake time:
4 min 30 sec / 3 min at 550F bottom stone then placed on screen on the top stone aprox. 620F  for 90 sec. 
A joy to eat. 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 11:42:17 AM by Buck47 »
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