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Author Topic: adding salt too early??  (Read 462 times)

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Offline landonspop

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adding salt too early??
« on: March 15, 2019, 09:06:02 AM »
I have read salt is a yeast killer, but I see many recipes here calling for salt to be added to yeast at the same time. I have always believed, by reading on websites, that sugar was used for this and that salt would kill the yeast. I am starting to use ADY, so does this make a difference?

One recipe here called for adding salt, 110* water, and yeast in a glass, to get the yeast fermenting.

Can someone explain this so I have a better understanding?
Looking to make a great Tavern style pizza.

Offline Yael

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 07:55:16 PM »
I just read again something about it, with these amounts and these duration in which they are in contact it's not a big deal. Sugar actually has the same effect as salt on yeast if added in bigger quantities.
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Offline jsaras

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 08:11:01 PM »
I have read salt is a yeast killer, but I see many recipes here calling for salt to be added to yeast at the same time. I have always believed, by reading on websites, that sugar was used for this and that salt would kill the yeast. I am starting to use ADY, so does this make a difference?

One recipe here called for adding salt, 110* water, and yeast in a glass, to get the yeast fermenting.

Can someone explain this so I have a better understanding?

There arenít too many scenarios where I would use 110F water for the entire dough mass.  The better general practice is to take a portion of your weighed formula water and heat that to 90-105F and let it foam up a bit.

As far as salt and yeast, youíll encounter varying opinions.  The Neapolitan-inclined folks tend to put it into the water along with the yeast.  Others mix the salt into the flour, and others delay the addition of salt until the dough begins to gather, and then oil is added after that.  Iíve done all three and Iíve never had it not work out.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 09:29:27 PM »
Tom has spent a good part of his career counselling professional pizza operators and rendering advice that kept them from doing things with their dough that could shut down their businesses and sales until the problems were identified and corrected. So, I suspect that Tom would say that it is not a good idea to combine salt and yeast in the water. I think he would perhaps say the same thing if the salt were first dissolved in the water before adding the yeast, which is a method that member Marco (pizzanapoletana) espoused for Neapolitan style pizza doughs. At least in that case, the salt would take up some of the water and not draw liquids out of the cells of the yeast, which would impair yeast performance and probably lead to other unwanted results. And if the rest of the dough making proceeded quickly, yeast performance would not be materially affected.

In the above context, it wouldn't matter what form of yeast would be used. For IDY, I suspect that Tom would say to just add the IDY to the flour, and for ADY he would say that it should be prehydrated in a small amount of water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about 10 minutes, and then combined with the rest of the formula water. The rest of the water should be at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 70-75 degrees F for a home setting.

Sugar can also have an unwanted effect on yeast by osmotic pressure but generally speaking you have to use a lot of sugar before that happens. I have read that sugar can impede yeast performance when it exceeds 5%.

If I were counselling professionals, I am sure that I would tell them not to combine salt and yeast in the water at the same time under just about all circumstances. It would be purely preventive advice.

Peter

Offline Brent-r

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 12:41:11 PM »
I'm still low on the learning curve here but I see a trade off on when to add yeast and salt
I like the workflow of Ken Forkish.  Mix the flour and most of the water and let rest for 20 - 30 minutes.  With bit of the saved water .. only a tablespoon or two, mix the yeast and let it activate.  If ADY it should be warm as noted above.  Incorporate the water/yeast into the dough and shortly after that incorporate the salt.  I like to grind the salt in a mortar and pestle to get it very find so it spreads and incorporates more evenly and dissolves more quickly.  Ken Forkish has a 'pincer' method of blending it all.   This is a bit more tedious but it all makes sense to me.

The simple way is to dump it all in more or less at the same time and let the mixer do it's thing.

Some day I'll try a side by side to see if I can find a difference in the result.  But  I'll bet Tom already knows the answer. ;)
Brent

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Online The Dough Doctor

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 02:39:49 PM »
Easiest way is to put the water in the mixing bowl first, then add salt and sugar (if used) no need to stir. Add the flour and the IDY (dry) or ADY (suspended/activated) and begin mixing. As soon as the flour is whetted (dry flour is no longer visible in the bottom of the bowl, add the oil and continue mixing. NOTE: If compressed yeast (CY) is used just crumble it right on top of the flour and begin mixing. As you can see, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. Besides, it works just fine.
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Offline Brent-r

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 02:54:34 PM »
You gotta love a guy that makes life simple.
Thank god he didn't go so far in simplification as suggesting to call Domino's  ;D
Brent

Offline Heikjo

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2019, 04:14:02 PM »
This question pops up from time to time. Has nobody done a proper test on this topic? Making a bunch of doughs with different methods for adding ingredients and see how they compare?
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline jsaras

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2019, 04:41:10 PM »
Easiest way is to put the water in the mixing bowl first, then add salt and sugar (if used) no need to stir. Add the flour and the IDY (dry) or ADY (suspended/activated) and begin mixing. As soon as the flour is whetted (dry flour is no longer visible in the bottom of the bowl, add the oil and continue mixing. NOTE: If compressed yeast (CY) is used just crumble it right on top of the flour and begin mixing. As you can see, I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle. Besides, it works just fine.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom,

I have a question for those of use who do extended room temperature fermentations (8 hours and beyond).  Given the tiny amounts of yeast, I add it to the formula water to ensure dispersion.  Is there any benefit in delaying the addition of salt in this scenario?   Is there a benefit to delaying the addition of salt other scenarios (cold fermentation)?

Thanks,
Jonas
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2019, 07:17:32 PM »
With respect to salt, I have read of three places where salt is added later in the dough preparation process.

The first case is for a classic autolyse. Normally, autolysed doughs are used principally in making bread dough but I have used that method for pizza dough. The second case is also with respect to bread dough but accompanied by intensive mixing, which was quite common among French bakers. The third case is with respect to a dough made from a strong flour and where it is desired to avoid further strengthening the gluten structure during mixing and kneading. I discussed the last two cases at different times at:

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16655.msg166925;topicseen#msg166925,

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125021#msg125021, and

Reply 48 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14613.msg146544#msg146544.

I suspect that the late addition of salt to Neapolitan style doughs is for doughs fermented at ambient temperatures, not cold fermentation applications even though the principles involved should also apply to cold fermented doughs.

Peter

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Re: adding salt too early??
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2019, 08:51:13 PM »
When it comes to impact upon fermentation the yeast doesn't care when the salt is added, it's all the same. As to the impact of salt on dough mixing, you can develop gluten faster without salt in the dough. In a commercial bread or bun bakery the mixing time is reduced by about 2-minutes when the delayed salt addition mixing method is employed (this is when the salt is added to the dough about 4-minuted before the end of the mixing time).
In the mixing of pizza doughs where there is no need or desire to fully develop the gluten the delayed salt addition mixing method is seldom ever used. When making commercial frozen pizza dough, that's a different story, now the salt is almost always delayed as full gluten development is desired plus there doughs are mixed very cold making the doughs quite tough in the mixer, by delaying the salt addition in this case the gluten is developed faster and the dough is not quite as tough so it's overall easier on the mixer too, when you consider that the mixer carries a price tag of the better part of $100,00.00 this is an important consideration.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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