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Author Topic: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter  (Read 747 times)

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Offline Briznitch

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Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« on: March 19, 2019, 11:03:00 AM »
Hi Tom (and others), I know you'll have some ideas. I am trying a new dough formula and style and I am having mix issues. Trying out naturally leavened, having made my own starter. Details are:
Made a starter from KA flours 11 days ago, have been double feeding until yesterday and it appears as it should, smells tangy but nice, rises double every day like they say, etc.... It's my first but looks and smells awesome. I use 1:1:1 for my feeds. Feeding it using KA AP - 11.7% protein.

Formula I'm using as follows (Inspired by Anthony Falco's naturally leavened formula he taught at Pizza Expo):
Flour 100%
Water 64%
Starter 15%
Oil 7%
Salt 3%
Malt (Dia) 0.25%

Flour is KA Bread flour (just starting these tests.) Water is at 60F, lets the dough finish at 72F. Weight of my starter for this batch is 90g, so I subtracted 45g from water total and 45g from flour total from what I read that's correct when adding starter....?) I autolyse F/W/Starter/Malt for 10 mins, begin the mix at lowest speed on my Kitchen Aid Artisan with J hook. (I hate that hook.) I wait 2 mins, then add oil and salt.

My problem is that after I mix it for maybe 5 mins, it's ultra gooey and sticky and is like pancake batter, I can literally pour it. It won't shape, it never develops into a windowpane, it just looks rough and rips apart. I've done this with 3 batches now, threw them all out so far because of how unmanageable it was I didn't see it as a realistic thing to use commercially so scrapped the test. I thought maybe it wasn't developed enough, but no matter how long I mix it - 5 more min, 10 more, 15 more..... it never develops ever. Just goo in a bowl. Time for pizza pancakes?

I don't have this issue even up to 70% with a normal dough using commercial yeast, though I also usually only go to maybe 4 or 5% oil. I've tried adding oil early, late, sporadically.... I've reduced my hydration even down to 62 and it still does this every time. Is it something with my starter, am I using it properly? Am I doing the math correct that this dough is at 64% or is there something hiding making it higher, hence my soupy-ness? I really want to get this natural starter thing going, it smells awesome. Bumming me out!

Thank you for any help, and thank you for your Monday morning class at Pizza Expo - it was amazing!
- Brett
« Last Edit: March 19, 2019, 11:04:35 AM by Briznitch »
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2019, 12:16:19 PM »
While I don't have a hard and fast answer to the problem, lets begin by saying that your starter is the "great unknown" since we don't have a clue as to what we're culturing or how much and specifically what acids are being formed. My recommendation is to reduce the amount of starter being added by 75%, if the dough looks better, then you can begin increasing the amount gradually until you find the optimum addition level for the flour that you're using.
Your dough mixing procedure might also have something to do with it too, how are you mixing your dough?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2019, 04:34:02 PM »
Your starter might have become too acidic, which can make it tear the dough apart and render it almost impossible to work with. How long does it take to peak and when do you feed it again? With a 1:1:1 feeding I assume it peaks fairly fast, as long as the temperature isn't too low.
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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 08:07:34 PM »
Is it possible that with a hydration of 64%, plus 7.5% more water (from the starter), plus 7% oil (which also has a wetting effect on the dough)--for a total of 78.5%--that a value of 78.5% may be too high for a flour (KABF) that has a rated absorption value of about 62%? Also, since the KABF is already malted (perhaps around 0.10-0.20%), won't the additional 0.5% of diastatic malt, presumably at a degrees Lintner of around 200, also have a wetting effect on the dough? The 3% salt might mitigate this effect but not enough to make a real difference.

Peter

Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 10:28:50 PM »
While I don't have a hard and fast answer to the problem, lets begin by saying that your starter is the "great unknown" since we don't have a clue as to what we're culturing or how much and specifically what acids are being formed. My recommendation is to reduce the amount of starter being added by 75%, if the dough looks better, then you can begin increasing the amount gradually until you find the optimum addition level for the flour that you're using.
Your dough mixing procedure might also have something to do with it too, how are you mixing your dough?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom,
I am mixing in a 6qt kitchen aid with a J hook at the lowest speed. I autolyse flour/water/starter for 10 mins, then mix at low for 3, add oil, mix another 5 or so.
As I type this I have tested 3 other batches with 1 variation each - I used ADY instead of the 15% starter, I used less water (62%), and I did one the same as above but waited until 6 mins into the mix to add the oil.
All my tests, it seems everything is OK until the oil comes into play. So my question now is, How do I add 6-7% oil without it giving me these issues? Do I need to lower my overall hydration for this type of flour probably? Thank you!
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Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 10:32:56 PM »
Is it possible that with a hydration of 64%, plus 7.5% more water (from the starter), plus 7% oil (which also has a wetting effect on the dough)--for a total of 78.5%--that a value of 78.5% may be too high for a flour (KABF) that has a rated absorption value of about 62%? Also, since the KABF is already malted (perhaps around 0.10-0.20%), won't the additional 0.5% of diastatic malt, presumably at a degrees Lintner of around 200, also have a wetting effect on the dough? The 3% salt might mitigate this effect but not enough to make a real difference.

Peter
Absolutely now that I look into it more. New to the starter thing, I am stumped on the math for adding starter to a batch. For instance, I was taking half of my starter (7.5%) and subtracting it from my overall flour/water totals, not adding it. I was under the impression that the flour total is 100, so ALL the flour needs to equal 100. So I took off half the starter from the total flour (and water), maybe that's part of it. Also, knowing that absorption rate is very helpful, appears I need a different flour to obtain this hydration properly. Unfortunately I can't shop at the store they sell it, need a business license and I'm not there yet. (Restaurant Depot)

So hard to test commercial recipes when you can't get a lot of commercial items. Time to do some searching... In the meantime, got any tricks for adding oil, as it seems that when I add it is when my dough gets stupid? I've added even 15% to some Chicago doughs I made, never were they like this. Im confused, but determined!
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 03:44:16 AM by Briznitch »
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2019, 11:52:20 PM »
Check to see if you can find Pillsbury Bread/Bread Maker flour. This is the same as Pillsbury Superlative flour as it comes in at about 12.4% protein content. I've personally used it to make all types of pizzas quite successfully. I like to refer to it as my "all-purpose" pizza flour (not to be confused with All-Purpose flour). With your "J" hook I'm betting that you are not getting sufficient mixing at low speed prior to adding the oil. Try mixing in low speed for 2-minutes and then going to a higher speed, where you can visually see the dough getting a better mixing action for at least 2 more minutes before adding the oil. The oil does not have a whetting effect upon the flour, it only has a lubricating effect. Since your starter is based on 50/50 flour+water, when adding 15% starter you will need to reduce the added dough water by the amount of water contained in the starter. You show a total dough absorption of 64% (this should include both added water and the water coming from the addition of 15% starter. If you are not doing this your absorption is actually 64% + 7.5% = 71.5% and on top of that you are adding 7% oil which further loosens the dough. The oil should not cause a sticky dough but instead only a soft, extensible dough condition. Remember, the percentage shown as the total dough absorption is based on the TOTAL amount of water going into the dough divided by the total flour weight (NOT to include the flour in the starter). To adjust for the lubricating effect of the oil and to improve dough handling properties you might want to reduce the total dough absorption to 59 to 60%.
The oil itself is not going to be directly responsible for a sticky dough condition unless one of two things are happening; 1) The oil is not added AFTER the flour has had a chance to hydrate in the mixing bowl prior to the oil addition. 2) Since the oil is a lubricant it will lubricate the dough during mixing, thus reducing actual gluten development so a longer mixing time will be required than a dough made with a much lower oil level. It is not uncommon to see dough mixing times (with a reverse spiral dough arm) run out to 12 to 15-minutes because of this lubricating effect. With a straight "J" hook it is impossible for me to say how long the mixing time might be without actually watching the dough being mixed, but you can bet it will be in the 10 to 15-minute bracket. With that said, if the dough is clinging to the hook or climbing up the hook (both common problems with the "J" hook) it might never get properly developed unless you can mix the dough at a sufficiently high speed so the dough gets flung off of the "J" hook.
Just to make sure there isn't an issue with ingredient amounts can you please share your dough formula showing the ingredient amounts in both bakers percent (I know you have already done that) and also in the weight measurements you are using.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2019, 03:48:47 AM »
Check to see if you can find Pillsbury Bread/Bread Maker flour. This is the same as Pillsbury Superlative flour as it comes in at about 12.4% protein content. I've personally used it to make all types of pizzas quite successfully. I like to refer to it as my "all-purpose" pizza flour (not to be confused with All-Purpose flour). With your "J" hook I'm betting that you are not getting sufficient mixing at low speed prior to adding the oil. Try mixing in low speed for 2-minutes and then going to a higher speed, where you can visually see the dough getting a better mixing action for at least 2 more minutes before adding the oil. The oil does not have a whetting effect upon the flour, it only has a lubricating effect. Since your starter is based on 50/50 flour+water, when adding 15% starter you will need to reduce the added dough water by the amount of water contained in the starter. You show a total dough absorption of 64% (this should include both added water and the water coming from the addition of 15% starter. If you are not doing this your absorption is actually 64% + 7.5% = 71.5% and on top of that you are adding 7% oil which further loosens the dough. The oil should not cause a sticky dough but instead only a soft, extensible dough condition. Remember, the percentage shown as the total dough absorption is based on the TOTAL amount of water going into the dough divided by the total flour weight (NOT to include the flour in the starter). To adjust for the lubricating effect of the oil and to improve dough handling properties you might want to reduce the total dough absorption to 59 to 60%.
The oil itself is not going to be directly responsible for a sticky dough condition unless one of two things are happening; 1) The oil is not added AFTER the flour has had a chance to hydrate in the mixing bowl prior to the oil addition. 2) Since the oil is a lubricant it will lubricate the dough during mixing, thus reducing actual gluten development so a longer mixing time will be required than a dough made with a much lower oil level. It is not uncommon to see dough mixing times (with a reverse spiral dough arm) run out to 12 to 15-minutes because of this lubricating effect. With a straight "J" hook it is impossible for me to say how long the mixing time might be without actually watching the dough being mixed, but you can bet it will be in the 10 to 15-minute bracket. With that said, if the dough is clinging to the hook or climbing up the hook (both common problems with the "J" hook) it might never get properly developed unless you can mix the dough at a sufficiently high speed so the dough gets flung off of the "J" hook.
Just to make sure there isn't an issue with ingredient amounts can you please share your dough formula showing the ingredient amounts in both bakers percent (I know you have already done that) and also in the weight measurements you are using.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
I have the feeling it was my math, and it really was more like 71% for sure. Not sure why but I couldn't find out how to include the starter in the totals anywhere, I was kind of guessing. I will try this new formula, as well as following your mix suggestions and see what happens tomorrow. I'm also going to check into some other flours right now. Thanks a ton for your help you guys.

Brett
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2019, 04:06:13 AM »
This calculator is great for your recipes. It changes the individual components to make sure the overall hydration stays at what you put in: https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2019, 07:34:44 AM »
Tom is correct that oil does not have a wetting effect on the flour in the sense of further hydrating the flour, which it cannot do. And that is why I usually put the expression wetting in quotes. But what I was really trying to convey without getting overly technical with home pizza makers is the effect of adding large amounts of oil to a dough, as Tom discussed in a PMQ Think Tank post as follows:

Neither pure oil, or liquid shortening contain any water, they are both 100% fat, but as liquids, they will effectively have a similar affect on the dough as water with regard to dough viscosity. Both oil and liquid shortening will contribute to making the dough somewhat softer feeling, and more easily stretched in the same way as adding more water to the dough would. This is the reason why, in some cases, like when we are pushing the dough absorption to the max, we must actually reduce the amount of water added when we increase the oil content, failure to do so would result in a dough that would be softer than desired. I was just out on a consulting job last week and we had to make a significant increase in the oil content of the dough, to do this without allowing the dough to get too soft, I had to reduce the water by the same amount as I had increased the oil content. Don't worry about this though as this only happens in rare cases.

To answer the last part of your question, yes, adding more water to the dough does contribute to making for a crispier finished crust. To maximize the dough absorption you keep increasing the dough absorption until the dough begins to get sticky or difficult to handle, then back of a little (about 2% of the flour weight is usually sufficient) and that is the maximum absorption for your dough, with your dough management procedure, and your forming procedure. This should give you the crispiest finished crust with regard to dough absorption. Do keep in mind though that there are other things that affect the final crispiness of the crust too aside from dough absorption.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

(Source: http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/lehmann.6110/#post-38321)

Once Brett provides weights for his ingredients, I am sure we will be able to straighten things out.

Peter

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2019, 10:18:50 AM »
Remember, the percentage shown as the total dough absorption is based on the TOTAL amount of water going into the dough divided by the total flour weight (NOT to include the flour in the starter).

^^ I think this is a key point to remember.  I think Tom has mentioned before that the FLOUR in the starter should NOT be part of the calculation to determine the recipe's overall hydration rate, whereas the WATER in the starter should.  If I recall correctly, this has to do with the degradation of the proteins in the starter, but I could be wrong.  All in all, this would be more of an issue in a formulation where there is a relatively large amount of starter being used, like the 15% in the OP's formula.


Rolls


Edit: I found Tom's post I alluded to above.  His comments were in reference to a poolish, not sourdough starter, but I think the same reasoning may apply:

Quote from: The Dough Doctor
After 18-hours fermentation you should not be including the flour in the poolish in with the dough flour as it is essentially non functional as a structure builder (strengthener) in the dough. So, unless I've missed something, this is what I'm looking at here: warm water + ice = 280-grams + 45 grams in the poolish for a total of 325-grams of water. Total flour (excluding the flour in the poolish) = 353-grams. Total absorption (325 divided by 353 X 100) = 92% dough absorption.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Quote from: The Dough Doctor
With that much fermentation on the poolish it is going to be quite acid which is not good for the gluten forming proteins as they are broken down by both the acids formed during fermentation and the enzymes which are present in both the yeast and the flour, much of the starch will be hydrolized into sugars to support fermentation so what's left in the poolish aside from the water?

« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 11:16:46 AM by Rolls »
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2019, 11:18:22 AM »
Thanks for posting that quote and link, Peter!

Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2019, 01:32:42 PM »
You guys are great, thank you. I think between my math for the addition of the starter (Why can I not find a definitive way to do the math until now?) and my flour I'm using, I just had it too wet. I ordered some new flours - Caputo 00 American, KA Sir Lancelot, and KA Sir Galahad all for testing. They should handle a higher absorption than my KA Bread flour. I also will make a new formula using this new math and try it today.

What I was using with percent and weights (Which I know now isn't correct, see my math I did):
Flour 100% / 350g  (350g-26.25g = 323.75g Flour)
Water 62% / 217g  (217g - 26.25g = 190.75 Water) (<-I subtracted half the starter for water and half for flour, which kept my absorption too high)
Starter 15% / 52.5g
Oil 7% / 24.5g
Salt 3% / 10.5g
Diastatic Malt 0.25% / 0.875g  (Just want to get extra browning at 515 and a little sweet)

Taking my water to 62% and doing the math this way, I think it came out to like 66.3% but maybe not since I took off flour as well. I know now that I was given incorrect math to use. I feel nobody is consistent until you guys on how to use the starter. Right now I'm going to reduce it using correct math and see where I get. I have high hopes, now, especially when I get this new flour.

Thank you all!
Brett
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Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2019, 01:42:18 PM »
But hey...... That calculator subtracts flour, like you guys just said not to. Hmmmmmm????

Do you see why I'm confused now? No consistency in the math. Half do it one way half another, even in this explanation there is now 2 ways of doing the math.

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
Salt (3%):
Oil (7%):
Sugar (.25%):
Total (173.25%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

450.65 g  |  15.9 oz | 0.99 lbs
283.91 g  |  10.01 oz | 0.63 lbs
13.52 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
31.55 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.01 tsp | 2.34 tbsp
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
780.76 g | 27.54 oz | 1.72 lbs | TF = N/A
260.25 g | 9.18 oz | 0.57 lbs
 
 
58.56 g | 2.07 oz | 0.13 lbs
58.56 g | 2.07 oz | 0.13 lbs
117.11 g | 4.13 oz | 0.26 lbs

 
392.1 g | 13.83 oz | 0.86 lbs
225.36 g | 7.95 oz | 0.5 lbs
13.52 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.42 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
117.11 g | 4.13 oz | 0.26 lbs
31.55 g | 1.11 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.01 tsp | 2.34 tbsp
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.28 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
780.76 g | 27.54 oz | 1.72 lbs  | TF = N/A
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 01:47:59 PM by Briznitch »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2019, 02:41:27 PM »
Brett,

If I understood your numbers correctly, this is what your dough formulation looks like (from the preferment dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html):

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (3%):
Oil (7%):
Total (172%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

350 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
217 g  |  7.65 oz | 0.48 lbs
10.5 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
24.5 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
602 g | 21.23 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
26.25 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs
26.25 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs
52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs

 
323.75 g | 11.42 oz | 0.71 lbs
190.75 g | 6.73 oz | 0.42 lbs
10.5 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs
24.5 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
602 g | 21.23 oz | 1.33 lbs  | TF = N/A

Technically, the numbers are a bit off because the preferment dough calculating tool does not allow for ingredients other than those listed. But if we use the sugar entry for the diastatic malt and ignore the weight to volume conversions and increase the dough ball weight from 602 grams to 602.875 grams, we get the following:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (3%):
Oil (7%):
Sugar Diastatic Malt (0.25%):
Total (172.25%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar Diastatic Malt:
Total:

350 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
217 g  |  7.65 oz | 0.48 lbs
10.5 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
24.5 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
0.87 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
602.87 g | 21.27 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
26.25 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs
26.25 g | 0.93 oz | 0.06 lbs
52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs

 
323.75 g | 11.42 oz | 0.71 lbs
190.75 g | 6.73 oz | 0.42 lbs
10.5 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
52.5 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs
24.5 g | 0.86 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.44 tsp | 1.81 tbsp
0.87 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.22 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
602.87 g | 21.27 oz | 1.33 lbs  | TF = N/A

It is also possible to consider the diastatic malt as part of the flour but the percents get real crazy and go out to several decimal places.

Peter

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 02:50:05 PM »
Brett,

I was working on my post and did not see your last post until after I posted my reply.

Some people will take an existing dough recipe and just add a preferment. That will change the numbers (increase them) for the basic recipe, including increasing the total dough batch weight. Others will take a given dough recipe and convert it to using a preferment without changing the numbers for the recipe. So, the total batch weight would not change. What I did was the second approach. So, the Total Formula is equal to the sum of the Preferment and the Final Dough.

Peter

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 02:53:50 PM »
Peter,

I am curious why when I put in 15% starter in that calculator, expressed in total dough weight, with a total flour weight of 450g, I'm at 117g.
When I do the math, 15% of 450g is only 67.5g. And when you did the math with a total of 350 you got my 52% that I had before, which lines up with being far less than what the calc shows me.

I just added my 117g starter to my water and it looked like a lot so I double checked, it's insane. 117g/450g = 26%!

More confusion: GO. I'm stumped.

Do you select Total Flour Weight instead of total dough weight? And why? Thank you!
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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 03:04:53 PM »
Brett,

I added the weights of all of the ingredients but for the starter, and got 602 grams, or 602.875 grams if we include the diastatic malt. That is the only way that I can use the preferment dough calculating tool based on the numbers you provided. I could have used the thickness factor option if I knew its value.

If you were to tell me exactly how you made the dough, with the exact weights you used, and the sequence you used to make the dough, I perhaps could come up with the numbers that apply to what you are doing.

Peter

Offline Briznitch

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 03:51:03 PM »
Brett,

I added the weights of all of the ingredients but for the starter, and got 602 grams, or 602.875 grams if we include the diastatic malt. That is the only way that I can use the preferment dough calculating tool based on the numbers you provided. I could have used the thickness factor option if I knew its value.

If you were to tell me exactly how you made the dough, with the exact weights you used, and the sequence you used to make the dough, I perhaps could come up with the numbers that apply to what you are doing.

Peter
Honestly after using this calculator set to % of total flour, it gave me a nearly perfect mix!!!! Really worked well, took a while for that much oil to incorporate but it was far better, easily manageable now. I also learned from you guys that my absorption was too high for that type of flour, so I lowered it to it's max and I know that was my main problem - that and the bad math. I've also ordered 3 new flours to try - KA Sir Lancelot, KA Sir Galahad, and Caputo 00 American.

Thank you guys so much, I think I'm on to something now! It smells super good already. And, that calculator!!! #bookmarked
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Offline parallei

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Re: Gooey Sticky Dough at 64% w/Starter
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2019, 03:54:00 PM »
Peter,

I am curious why when I put in 15% starter in that calculator, expressed in total dough weight, with a total flour weight of 450g, I'm at 117g.
When I do the math, 15% of 450g is only 67.5g. And when you did the math with a total of 350 you got my 52% that I had before, which lines up with being far less than what the calc shows me.

I just added my 117g starter to my water and it looked like a lot so I double checked, it's insane. 117g/450g = 26%!

More confusion: GO. I'm stumped.

Do you select Total Flour Weight instead of total dough weight? And why? Thank you!

The calculator used your selection of 15% of the total dough weight to determine the weight of starter needed.  In your case, the total dough weight is 780.75g.  15% of 780.75 is, in fact, 117.11.  So the calculator is doing what you asked it to do.

Note that the total dough weight includes everything:  Starter flour and water, other flour and water used, salt, ect.....

I use the Total Flour Weight as the basis to calculate how much starter (or yeast, or whatever) is required.  Baker's Percentages.  I think most here do.  I know Craig's charts for starter amounts/time temp and IDY, CY, ADY/time temp are based on recipe flour weight.

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