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Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza  (Read 186040 times)

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Offline varasano

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Tonights Pies
« Reply #240 on: April 10, 2005, 11:30:25 PM »
These photos do not really do these pies justice. These were among the lightest I've ever gotten the crust.  This is the first pie I've made with my standard dough recipe since fixing my cheese problem, so these were among my best pies ever. I wish I could show the crust spring. It was very springy.

These doughs were exremely wet and spread like butter. I didn't measure, but I'd guess these were a 64% hydration.  I may even have spread them too much. The pie went to 14" and was a bit too thin.  With this weight (270g) I should keep it to 13". It barely fit on the stone.

The only minor issue I had was that the oven temp differential got a little mixed up because my guests came an hour late and forced me to turn the oven off and recycle it back up. So the end result is that the top did not cook quite as much as I'd like.

I've lowered the stone temp to 790F. I think I'm going to keep it this low.  The bottom burns less and I seem to have more control overall.

Jeff

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #241 on: April 10, 2005, 11:35:07 PM »
I also ran some experiments were I cooked the sauce two ways. But the pie with the uncooked sauce won hands down.

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #242 on: April 10, 2005, 11:39:33 PM »
3 days ago I posted a photo of windowpaning. These dough are from that batch after a 3 day cold rise and a 3 hour counter rise.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #243 on: April 11, 2005, 05:09:19 PM »
I am stuck at Dulles International awaiting the flight to Frankfurt and ultimately on to Bangalore and I wondered, who would sign up to try the formula which has been honed in this thread?

Pete-zza (God bless this man) has pointed out that there may be large variations in the formula if you try it with volumes instead of weights. Apparently, every measurement is inconcise when measuring due to the imprecise nature of measuring spoons and especially measuring cups. I have not had an opportunity to try the recipe with volume measurements. Until I do, I would heartily recommend trying the formula with weights - if possible.

You'll be glad you did...
Pizza Raquel is Simply Everything You’d Want.
www.wood-firedpizza.com

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #244 on: April 11, 2005, 07:21:15 PM »
And do us all a favor and report in grams not oz,tsp, tbsp, etc.

pft, my last dough was REALLY wet. Probably 64%. But it was one of my best. I'll try to measure next time.

;-)

Jeff

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Offline duckjob

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #245 on: April 11, 2005, 08:23:03 PM »
I plan on giving it a go later this week. I'll have to up the IDY amount until I can get some starter. I'll report back with pictures and thoughts.

Brian

Offline wayno

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #246 on: April 12, 2005, 07:14:21 PM »
Here is the complete formulary:

Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want (TM Pending) - Based on input from ilpizzaiolo, Pete-zza, Varasano, pizzanapoletana, dinks, bakerboy, quidoPizza, Arthur, friz78 & countless others.

        Weight                         Volume                                     Description                           Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3       cups                                  KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz              Water                                               60%     
.01  oz/  .285 Grams      1/8    teaspoon (baker's pinch)  Instant Dry Yeast                            .15%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                          Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                   2%
.08  oz/  2.3   Grams      1       teaspoon                          Olive oil                                               5%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2       tablespoon                       Varasano Preferment                          8% 

Quote
PFTAYLOR (Peter),

Thanks so much for the wonderful recipe!  I made it exactly as instructed (with the extra 1/8 tsp ADY as I do not have the Verasano Preferment). I mixed it on Friday.  Had one wonderful pie 24 hrs later and enjoyed another today (Tuesday) which had even more flavorful crust than the first.  It was quite a thin crust (but strong enough for loaded toppings) as I stretched both to 15" with a nice rim.

Thanks again!

Wayno
At night, I either sleep, make love or dream about making pizza.

Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #247 on: April 12, 2005, 07:24:18 PM »
I'm a little curious-- with 3 cups of flour and only 1 1/8 cups of liquid --is'nt the dough rather dry??? I use close to that liquid with only 2 cups of flour and still sometimes I have to add water....please elaborate, thanks....

Offline wayno

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #248 on: April 12, 2005, 07:55:39 PM »
MTPIZZA,

Go back and read the complete recipe (on this thread) that contains PFTAYLOR'S/Verazano's instructions on mixing the dough.  It is really amazing how this dough comes out of the fridge after 24 hrs.  It really softens up just like a pillow!  And has remarkable stretching characteristics.

Wayno
At night, I either sleep, make love or dream about making pizza.

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #249 on: April 12, 2005, 08:03:18 PM »
This dough should be rather wet. My dough is probably a bit wetter than pfTaylor's.  Don't force flour into it just because of a recipe.  If you feel that the dough is coming along and you still have some flour left, that's perfectly ok.

Some of the numbers in the chart above are off.  2 tablespoons of starter would probably weigh no more than 15g not 37. A teaspoon of oil is not 5%.

But the grams column looks about right.  Except I recommend no oil if you have the oven to the correct temp (750F or higher)

Jeff
« Last Edit: April 12, 2005, 08:08:40 PM by varasano »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #250 on: April 12, 2005, 10:01:33 PM »
I, too, decided to try out the Raquel recipe, with a few modifications.

First, I downsized the recipe to make enough dough for a 14-inch pizza, the largest my pizza stone can accommodate. For purposes of downsizing, I used the baker's percents specified in the Raquel recipe along with a thickness factor of 0.07, which is what I roughly calculated to be the thickness factor used in the Raquel recipe. Second, I used a somewhat different dough processing sequence and autolyse. For this purpose, I used the autolyse procedure described recently by DINKS (see more on this below).

The final recipe I came up was as follows, together with the baker's percents (Note: the latest iteration of the Raquel recipe on this thread contains the correct baker's percents, and are also correctly repeated below):

100%, Flour (KASL high-gluten), 6.30 oz. (about 1 1/4 c. + 3 T.)
60%, Water, 3.79 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 c., temp. adjusted to get a finished dough temp. of 80 degrees F)
0.0625%, IDY, 0.004 oz. (2/100 t., or a very small pinch between the thumb and forefinger)
2%, Salt, 0.126 oz. (about 5/8 t.)
0.5%, Oil, 0.32 oz. (between 1/8 and 1/4 t.)
8%, Preferment, 0.51 oz. (about 3/4 T.)

One of the interesting aspects of the above recipe is the very small amount of IDY--about 2/100 teaspoon. To give one an idea of how little that is, it takes about 6 pinches of IDY between the thumb and forefinger to fill 1/8 teaspoon. Just one of those pinches is about 2/100 of a teaspoon.

To make the dough according to the DINKS autolyse description, I first combined and thoroughly mixed one-third of the flour (2.10 oz.), one-third of the water (1.26 oz.), and the IDY. Then I added the preferment (3/4 T.), the remainder of the flour (4.20 oz.) and the remainder of the water (2.53 oz.), and thoroughly mixed all these ingredients together. The dough at this stage was left to rest for about 30 minutes (autolyse). After the autolyse, the remainder of the ingredients, namely the oil and the salt, were added in succession and kneaded in with the rest of the dough ingredients for 8 minutes. The dough was then given a second rest (not technically an autolyse) for 15 minutes. At the end of the second rest, the dough weighed 10.77 oz. and had a finished dough temperature of around 79 degrees F.

The dough was put in a plastic storage bag and placed in the refrigerator. In an effort to provoke greater fermentation out of the dough, I left it in the refrigerator for 46 hours. At the end of that period, the dough was brought to room temperature, covered with a bit of bench flour and a sheet of plastic wrap, and left alone for about 1 hour to warm up (to about 62 degrees F.) It should be noted that at the point where I took the dough out of the refrigerator, it had slumped into a flat pancake-like disk. This reminded me of the same behavior as the doughs I made using the Caputo 00 flour and Caputo 00 natural starter.

At the end of the warmup period, the dough was shaped into a 14-inch skin. The dough was absolutely wonderful to work with. It was soft, extremely extensible but without any signs of tears or weak or thin spots forming. Although I was aiming for a 14-inch skin, I had no difficulty stretching the dough even further, and I am certain I could have stretched it a great deal more had I wanted. It clearly was one of the nicest doughs I have ever had to work with.

The skin was dressed in a simple style, mainly using up leftovers of San Marzano tomatoes and three different mozzarella cheeses, together with a sprinkling of olive oil and Sicilian sea salt with dried basil. The pizza was baked for about 6 minutes on a pizza stone that had been preheated for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F. About 5 minutes into the bake cycle, I turned on the broiler and moved the pizza from the stone to the top oven rack just below the broiler for a final minute or so.

The photos below show the finished product. I apologize for the darkness of some of the photos. Apparently, I forgot to turn on the background lighting. In any event, the pizza tasted very good. The crust was thin, soft and chewy in the middle and chewy and crunchy at the rim. The crust also had many bubbles, a few of which I found necessary to burst with a metal skewer. This was surprising since the dough as it was being stretched and shaped showed no signs of bubbling, as noted in one of the photos below. The crust was also lightweight and delicate and had nice flavors of fermentation. I had used my Texas-bred preferment--a natural starter based on the Caputo 00 flour--yet it produced a lot of flavor. It reminded me in that respect of the pizza crusts of the Caputo 00 pizzas I have been making over the past several weeks (and discussed on the Caputo 00 thread).

As a final note, one should use the weight measurements of the Raquel recipe if at all possible, pending a possible revision of the volume measurements given in the recipe. pftaylor is aware of a possible discrepancy, as he noted in an earlier thread, and will most likely be addressing the ingredient volumes of his recipe once he returns home and has a chance to fine tune the recipe.

My hat goes off to pftaylor, and to those who inspired, helped and taught him, for coming up with a first-rate recipe. And thanks also to my good friend DINKS for his thoughtfulness in conveying the basic principles of autolyse to me.

Peter

« Last Edit: April 30, 2005, 06:07:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Artale

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #251 on: April 13, 2005, 10:15:36 AM »
Peter,

thankyou for your deligent work in explaining your findings and procedures!

4 Questions i have: 1)  Did you notice and increase in flavor due to the
                                     low yeast, autolyse period and longer fridge time?

                                2) How long does it take you to bring the dough
                                     to room temperature from the fridge?

                                 3)  what temp. water did you use?

                                 4) Do you recommend a starter  (spourdough.com)

Due to you and others on this forum my pizza making has increased
in quality and once i get a digital camera i would love to share my
pictures with the group.

thank you all for your help and thank you Peter!

Artale...   :)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #252 on: April 13, 2005, 11:31:40 AM »
Artale,

I'm glad to hear that your pizza making skills are improving. As they say, the devil is in the detail :).

As for your questions:

1) Did you notice and increase in flavor due to the low yeast, autolyse period and longer fridge time?

It's hard to know what to give credit to when you do several things at the same time, but there's no doubt in my mind that using a longer retardation improves the flavor profile of the crust, so long as the dough isn't allowed to overproof. But I believe using the natural preferment is a greater contributor to flavor. Where the small amount of commercial yeast (IDY) seems to be most useful is in achieving a better oven spring. It also may act to save the dough in the event the preferment is too weak to do the job. Usually when I have combined both commercial and natural yeast in the same dough, the flavor is not as potent as when only the natural yeast (preferment) is used.  In the version of pftaylor's recipe I used, the IDY was so small that it may not have had the effect of muting the fermentation flavors from the natural yeast. As for the autolyse, I will have to repeat the experiment without using the autolyse to get a better feel for its value. The autolyse I used was quite different from what pftaylor uses, but the results seem to have been very good nonetheless. If pftaylor decides to try the autolyse I used (which was based on DINKS' discussion on the topic), he will certainly have a better feel than I as to its value.

2) How long does it take you to bring the dough to room temperature from the fridge?

I usually go by dough temperature rather than time since a dough will warm up faster when the room is warm and slower when the room is cold. The standard temperature that is often recommended for shaping a dough is above 50 degrees F. Below that, the dough is likely to experience problems with bubbling. I usually shoot for something between 57-62 degrees F, even though that is no guarantee that you won't get bubbling, as I did when I made my dough yesterday. I'm sure I could have used an even longer warmup period without adversely affecting the dough.

3)  what temp. water did you use?

I calculated the temperature of the water to use based on the room temperature (77.6 degrees F), the flour temperature (76.8 degrees F), and the friction factor for my KitchenAid stand mixer (I used 5 degrees F). I was striving for a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F. To calculate the water temperature to use to get that finished dough temperature, I solved for WT (water temperature) in this expression:

           WT = (3 x 80) - (77.7 + 76.8 + 5) = 80.6 degrees F.

Using that water temperature, the finished dough temperature was around 79 degrees F. Unlike most people, I have gotten in the habit of calculating water temperature each time I make a dough, rather than guessing or using prior experience. The calculated approach is just more precise.

4) Do you recommend a starter (spourdough.com)

I think a starter (preferment) is a very good idea if you want a lot of crust flavor and are willing to establish and maintain the starter. I started mine from scratch using Texas wild yeast, but I am certain that the starters sold by sourdo.com are very good and most likely better than the one I am using. If you are interested in experimenting with a preferment, you might want to start off simply by making your own just to see if you like the results. If you do, you can always decide to get one from sourdo.com or elsewhere.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #253 on: April 13, 2005, 03:46:43 PM »
In my opinion, start off with a sample from sourdo.com. Starting your own is a hit or miss proposition. Ed wood at sourdo.com scoured the world looking for great samples.

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #254 on: April 14, 2005, 01:30:05 AM »
This pie was awesome. The dough was in the fridge for 6 days. When I took the dough out of the sealed container, it had the aroma of a fine wine. I bet it could have gone another few days without a problem.  It was so light and springy. Perfectly charred on top and bottom. I posted photos of a pie from the same batch using a 3 days rise. The 6 day rise was better than the 3 day rise, mostly because I adjusted the oven temp and pie thickness. I've made a firm decision to keep the temp of the stone down to 780-790F, down from 825 that I used to use. This means the pie cooks a little slower. This one took 2:40, but it seems to be working better overall.

Now that I've perfected the crust I've been working on my sauce more. It's tasting much better but I still would love to know what Johnny's does to make their sauce so amazing. I did a side by side taste test with Cento vs Escalon. Cento won hands down.

I'm getting better at balancing the exact right amount of moisture and as a result I'm not needing the underlying layer of sliced dry cheese that I sometimes put under the sauce (in addition to the fresh mozz). This pie is fresh mozz only.  You can see from the color that I used fresh mozzarella from 2 different batches. Both were excellent though. The cheese breakdown problem has been solved.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 01:37:55 AM by varasano »

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Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #255 on: April 14, 2005, 01:44:22 AM »
I've updated my page. The new site also has a lot of new details on my procedure.

I have made some improvements to the recipe spreadsheet too. You can download from my page.


Jeff
« Last Edit: April 14, 2005, 01:48:04 AM by varasano »

Offline dankfoot

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #256 on: April 14, 2005, 09:24:17 AM »
Question?

I have been making pizza for about two years now. I have always just dumped a small pack of yeast in the dough before kneading. I think the pack of yeast is like 2 1/2 teaspoons in volume.

After looking at pftaylors recipe post #211 it says use 1/8 teaspoon.

Have I been using to much yeast the whole time? Does that change the flavor?


Offline MTPIZZA

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #257 on: April 14, 2005, 09:38:35 AM »
Varasano, one question, you said you kept the dough in the frig for 6 days. Whenever I go past my 12 hour period the dough pushes the lids off the containers, and I have to push them back down. Did you run into this problem or how do you store your dough, zip lock bag?? just wondering. Also I'm amazed that the dough was usable after this period of time, does'nt your yeast exhaust its leavening power??

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #258 on: April 14, 2005, 11:16:04 AM »
MTPIZZA,

If you will take a look at Alton Brown's dough recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,218.msg1597.html#msg1597, you will note that he talks about a dough life that can go beyond 6 days. But in his case, he adds a fair amount of sugar and also a fair amount of salt. In fact, he has been criticized for the large amount of salt in his original recipe. The sugar should help extend the dough's useful life by feeding the yeast, and the salt, especially in large amounts, will slow down the fermentation process and possibly help extend the useful life of the dough for that reason also.

I know that Jeff doesn't use sugar in his recipe, so I will let him speak for himself. However, Iam coming to believe that using a preferment has something to do with it. Maybe the natural yeast has a slower metabolism than commercial yeast. dankfoot, in an earlier post today, raised a question about using small amounts of yeast, e.g., 1/8 t. Recently, I used about 1/6 of 1/8 t. IDY (2/100 of an ounce), and it worked out surprisingly well, although I did also use a preferment. In the past, I have also used small amounts of yeast, as little as 1/8 t., for a high-gluten flour dough, but I allowed the dough to rise (at room temperature) all day, from morning until evening. Temperature is also a big factor in the duration of fermentation. For every 15 degrees F increase in temperature, the rate of fermentation doubles. In fact, of all the technical service calls the General Mills Bakery Flours Group receives from pizza operators, 80% of them involve issues related to dough temperature.

Peter

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #259 on: April 14, 2005, 03:59:21 PM »
Hmmm... I have to say that I disagree that adding sugar will extend the life of the yeast. The yeast feed on the flour, which is a carbohydrate, same as the sugar. Swapping one for the other doesn't seem to add to the total amount of usable food. But I have not tested this. I use no sugar ever.  The relatively high salt content, along with the cold of the fridge is all that it takes. The dough stops feeding more because it's alcohol content is rising and it's acidity is changing, more than because it's out of food. The dough is more or less self regulating. It grows fast at first, but after a day it slows down as the waste products build.  The dough hardly rose at all for the entire 6 days. It looked no different than it did after the first day.

Look at this photo. It's a "what NOT to do photo":

(http://www.think2020.com/jv/Dough/DSC00416.JPG)

This was posted on my page a long time ago. This dough is WAY over risen and the final product ends up falling and becoming too dense. This might seem counter intuitive. But you should experiment with shortening the warm rise period and letting the dough only do a warm rise for an hour or two max. This will result in a LIGHTER final pizza, so long as you are using a very wet dough.  The logic here is that the yeast is only partially responsible for the air holes in the final dough. Much of the puffyness and spring comes from the steam that is generated from a wet dough.  If the dough has only risen a bit, the gluten structure is in good shape and the steam will push out and generate well structured air holes during baking. On the other hand, if the yeast has risen the dough a lot, the gluten has been stretched and is thin. When you stretch the dough into a pie, the walls of the bubbles are overstretched and weak and they collapse. The steam escapes too and the pie ends up dense.  If your dough is windowpaning very well, like mine is:

(http://www.think2020.com/jv/Dough/DSC00698.JPG)

then this will also allow the dough to stretch without collapsing the gluten bubbles.

Light dough:
- Autolyse properly, carefully following the instructions from my main page
- Great windowpaning (great kneading)
- Wet dough
- modest rise

Dense dough:
- Poor keanding
- dry dough
- overrise
- refridgerating dough that has already risen (warm rise, then chill, which collapses the bubbles)

I keep the dough in 3 cup plastic container s (as shown above)

I used 1/2 teaspoon IDY for a 1300g dough.  This is fairly minimal. I used over 200g of poolish. The total hydration was probably about 64%, but I didn't measure it.

Read my main page again, because I cover most of this and my steps have been tightened up. I really feel like I'm all the way home. After 6 years of my guest saying "It's great" and me saying "no it could be so much better", I've finally come across all the steps I need. The pie above is every bit as light, tasty charred and flavorful as a Patsy's pie. It could go head to head in a taste test.

http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm

Jeff
« Last Edit: April 15, 2005, 08:47:15 AM by Steve »

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