Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza (Read 210384 times)

varasano · « **Reply #320 on:** April 30, 2005, 02:27:08 AM »

Thanks brian. Those are good tests. Are you using a starter?

Pizza photos: http://www.damichele.net/

duckjob · « **Reply #321 on:** April 30, 2005, 02:54:13 AM »

I'm not using a starter at this time. I will be purchasing the italian starters from sourdo.com pretty soon I think. I'm debating on whether I should buy his book first so I don't mess the starts up, or if the info the starter comes with would be good enough. For now I'm using IDY.

duckjob · « **Reply #322 on:** April 30, 2005, 03:04:55 AM »

actually, I did find some pictures. Most of the pizza was eaten before I had a chance to take pictures. This is a 60% hydration dough after a 3 day cold rise. Cooked in a home oven preheated to 550 for one hour, cooked for just over 5 minutes with the broiler on high. The broiler in this case is just the top heating element.

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/patsys_042305/patsys_2-1.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/patsys_042305/patsys_2-2.jpg)

(http://www.duckjob.net/pizza/patsys_042305/patsys_2-3.jpg)

scott r · « **Reply #323 on:** April 30, 2005, 05:28:32 AM »

duckjob, I have a feeling you will be fine without the book. The directions that come with the starter, plus what has been written on this forum will be enough info to get these things going without any problems. I just screwed up by not being around for 20 hours straight. As long as you will be around to feed them, you will be fine. Letting them go for a normal 8 hour work day will be fine.
This italian starter from the old bakery smells so amazing I want to drink it. It has a vanilla milkshake/cake frosting kind of smell to it now that it is back in good health. My wife keeps begging me to hurry up and back some pie because the scent is driving her crazy! I have a feeling it is going to make a mighty fine tasting dough.
Also, nice char for a normal oven. Looks good!!!!

pftaylor · « **Reply #324 on:** April 30, 2005, 06:58:15 AM »

duckjob,
Your pies keep on getting better and better. You may have to open a shop if you keep trending like that.

Thanks for sharing.

varasano · « **Reply #325 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:01:58 PM »

Quote from: duckjob on April 30, 2005, 02:54:13 AM

I'm not using a starter at this time. I will be purchasing the italian starters from sourdo.com pretty soon I think. I'm debating on whether I should buy his book first so I don't mess the starts up, or if the info the starter comes with would be good enough. For now I'm using IDY.

Definitely buy the book. The info on this forum, including my own descriptions, is not really a substitute in my opinion.

pftaylor, I'd love for you to get the italian starter and compare. Just think of how much time that would save me ;-)

Jeff

pftaylor · « **Reply #326 on:** April 30, 2005, 12:21:25 PM »

Varasano,
I'm afraid I'm not going to be much help for the next 60 - 90 days as we have two projects which will require constant travel (M - F) on my part. So I would not be able to properly grow a new starter with only being home on the weekends.

In July, after our year-end, I would be able to focus more on pizza related activities. Until then it seems like a stretch to do much more than bake an occasional pie here or there. I wish I had better news but the sober realities of the role I'm in dictate my current plight.

duckjob · « **Reply #327 on:** April 30, 2005, 06:19:05 PM »

Thanks for the nice comments scottr and pftaylor.

I think I'll end up buying the book with the starters if for no other reason that I find the science behing the process kind of interesting. 3 more weeks until I'm done with school, then I'll have much more time to devote to pizza.

Brian

varasano · « **Reply #328 on:** May 06, 2005, 10:00:48 AM »

I made my first batch with caputo pizzeria 00. It took a lot more flour than the KA I'm used to. It was

Caputo 100.00%
Water 56%
IDY 0.3%
Salt 2.25%

With about 20% of the flour and water coming from the poolish. It was still very very wet to handle.

I'm doing a 3 day cold rise so I can have a crew watching Desperate Housewives and eating pizza. I let a small piece sit out just to see it warm rise

Jeff

scott r · « **Reply #329 on:** May 06, 2005, 01:12:26 PM »

Let me know if your room temp rise has way more sour flavor than the fridge dough. The was such a difference between the two in my experiment. I almost didn't taste it in some of the fridge dough, but that counter rise.......holy S***!

varasano · « **Reply #330 on:** May 09, 2005, 10:45:33 AM »

I have found the fridge rise has more flavor, but I'd imagine that this might vary depending on the culture. I did not do the counter rise experiment this time. I let it sit, but didn't have time to bake it.

I made the caputo pies. They were very good, but not as good as some of my other experiments. I didn't take any photos, but frankly they looked identical to my usual anyway. I may try the caputo with a shorter cold rise or go back and try Marco's short warm rise and see how that works out. It's always hard to get perfect results the first time out with new ingredients, so I'm not passing judgement on the caputo.

I will say this. I know I've said this before but it deserves repeating. I know some people are out there obsessing on the kind of flour. AP, Break, Hi Gluten, 00. I've used all 4 of these in the last 4 months. And let me tell you - the differences in these products PALE in comparison to the 3 really key factors:
1- the starter used
2- the technique used in making and fermenting the dough
3- the heat

Work on improving everything - the freshest herbs. the best cheese, the best tomatoes, good flour, good salt, etc. But understand that the 3 above are the largest determinates of your results.

Artale · « **Reply #331 on:** May 09, 2005, 12:01:09 PM »

Jeff,

i am no expert by any means but you said a mouth full no pun intended!
The more i make pizza the more it comes down to making the dough.
The procedure is everything. the right amount of water is also very
high on the scale of things. I have been using your methods for a month
with great results. I told my wife i need a dig camera so i can share
my pics. thanks jeff

MTPIZZA · « **Reply #332 on:** May 09, 2005, 03:06:27 PM »

I totally agree with Jeff...its the procedure used or techinque used that provides the best end result... many good flours are available at everyones disposal...

pftaylor · « **Reply #333 on:** May 09, 2005, 06:11:25 PM »

Varasano,
I mostly agree with your list just not the order it is in.

The mixing and stretching procedures are far and away number one along with skill and knowledge of the home pizzaiolo. It must be tweaked almost on a daily basis depending on a host of factors. It is equal parts art and science in my book.

Followed by extreme heat which can be a great deodorant for screw-ups in key factor number one above. I found out in my recent trip to NY that some of the elite pizzerias rely heavily on their oven and not their skill. A truly hot oven has the capability to produce a glorious pie.

Then things such as preferments and quality ingredients which can add to the experience but cannot possibly save the day if the other two factors aren't right. Get the first two factors right and number three is rendered nearly insignificant.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #334 on:** May 11, 2005, 08:10:08 PM »

I would like just to point out that is important to mix properly the dough, and there are such factor as oxidating the flour (which increase strenght and water absorbtion), however this doesn't mean that the dough needs to be overworked. I can see from some of your pictures that the crumb is to bready, too dense.

Artale · « **Reply #335 on:** May 12, 2005, 10:57:24 AM »

Marco,

do you use a rest period in between kneading?
also from your response you indicate that maybe
too much mixing is the problem creating a denser dough.

What approximate total mixing time do you use?

thanks,

Artale

duckjob · « **Reply #336 on:** May 12, 2005, 02:12:31 PM »

for anyone that is interested this is the process I have been using, and it has consistenly resulted in a very airy, soft and crispy crust.

1 minute - mix in water and half of flour
20 minute - rest
5 minutes - gradually mix in remaining flour over five minutes
15 minute - rest
1 minute - hand knead

I use a kitchen aid stand mixer on the lowest setting.

pizzanapoletana · « **Reply #337 on:** May 12, 2005, 05:28:01 PM »

I do use a rest period,

I prefer to work with a fork mixer,

By the way, too much mixing does create a too dense dough and also gummy once cooled...

Ciao

Quote from: Artale on May 12, 2005, 10:57:24 AM

Marco,

do you use a rest period in between kneading?
also from your response you indicate that maybe
too much mixing is the problem creating a denser dough.

What approximate total mixing time do you use?

thanks,

Artale

varasano · « **Reply #338 on:** May 12, 2005, 07:33:06 PM »

duckjob, you may actually be mixing too little. 6 minutes total kneading seems light to me. I don't know what kind of machine you are using, but for a home machine especially, that seems low. I have best result with 10-15 total time, depending on the hydration and a few other factors. But most of this time is with less than all the flour

Sedagive · « **Reply #339 on:** May 12, 2005, 10:12:02 PM »

Quote from: Artale on April 04, 2005, 12:45:28 PM

My family roots are located near tapani just east of that city in a town
called Castellammare Del Golfo. Me and my wife at such a point would like to take
a trip to Italy and Castellammare will be on the list of places to see.

Beautiful landscape!

Chow!!

My grandfather was from Castellamare del Golfo! His last name was Galatioto. Are we related? lol.