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Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza  (Read 180790 times)

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Offline friz78

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #60 on: March 17, 2005, 10:22:53 AM »
This is great stuff guys, as I really believe we are getting to the heart of what will yield a Patsy's style dough and, for that matter, overall improved quality of any NY style pizza we attempt to produce.  The techniques of kneading and refrigeration/retardation are at the very core of how we can change the consistency and texture of a finished dough product.

I have some input regarding kneading that I believe will be helpful to this conversation.  It is based on my recent experiment with "Re-engineering DiFara's Pizza."  Many of you may recall that I reported a recipe for a DiFara clone that was very successful and, very simple.  You may also recall the amazement I expressed in how flavorful the texture and taste of the pizza dough was.  My amazement, at that time, stemmed from the simplicity of the ingredients - flour (KA00 and KASL), salt, water, and yeast.  In hindsight, I kept asking myself, "What in the world was so special about this process that made this pizza turn out so good?"  The feedback on this thread has motivated me to look back on that DiFara experience and take a closer look at what elements/techniques that I used that could have made such a simple recipe turn out so well.  Before I outline exactly what I believe made a difference in this DiFara experiment, I would also point out that the recipe I used was VERY similar to the one that we are discussing on this thread.  Hence, I believe the feedback I can provide, particularly as it relates to mixing, kneading, and refrigeration/retardation, can be very helpful as we continue our journey to replicate Patsy's pizza.  For sake of reference, here is the recipe that I used for the DiFara experiment (notice the great similarities to the Patsy's recipe):

5.82 oz.  KASL
3.88 oz.  KA00
6.3 oz.   Water
1/4 t.   Salt
1/2 t.  ADY

I proofed the ADY with the salt and the water in a KitchenAide mixer.  I used all the water for the recipe in the proofing and included the salt shortly after mixing the water and ADY.   After mixing the water, yeast and salt for about 4 minutes, I gradually added the flour mixture.  After a dough ball was formed I removed it from the mixer and hand kneaded it for about one more minute.  I then placed the dough ball in a plastic bag and placed it in the refrigerator for overnight refrigeration.


Now, for the follow up and detail review of the above stated technique.  In reviewing my technique, there were a few things that I did that were DIFFERENT than any other time that I made pizza dough, and after reading other posts on this thread, they made a HUGE difference in the outcome of this pizza.  Here are the keys as I perceive/remember them:

1.)  This was the FIRST TIME I had ever mixed the liquid in my stand mixer before adding the flour.  As Verasano suggested, I added the flour GRADUALLY, and it seemed to allow/encourage a very thorough mixing of the wet and dry ingredients without over-mixing or "beating up" the dough.

2.)  After a dough ball was created in the mixer at speed #2 and then speed #3, it began, as it normally does, to stick to the dough hook and seriously restrict the kneading process.  So, as a "change-up" to anything I had done before, I INCREASED THE MIXER SPEED TO 4-6 FOR THE FINAL 3 MINUTES OF MIXING.  4-6 is a speed on my mixer (there is no 5 or 4, just a setting that is "4-6").  I am convinced that this provided a valuable element to the stand mixer kneading process.  While some of the dough still stuck to the hook, the speed of the mixing periodically released the dough from the hook and provided some additional kneading, but for only a short period of time.  Another critical element, which was pointed out by Pizzanapoletana, is that I HAND KNEADED the dough for about 2 minutes after taking it out of the mixer.

3.)  The refrigeration/retardation of this experiment was also paramount in the process, in my opinion.  As reported on the "Re-engineering DiFara's" thread, I created two dough balls and refrigerated one for 24 hours and the other for about 40 hours.  Both pizzas turned out great, but I preferred the flavor and texture of the dough ball with the 40 hour rise.  Although, the 40 hour refrigeration made the dough very extensible and a bit more difficult to form.  Since both pizzas turned out good, my sense is the kneading technique was more responsible for the positive outcome than the refrigeration/retardation.  However, it does seem to indicate that a MINIMUM of a 24 hour refrigeration is invaluable.

4.)  I used a 65% hydration for this recipe, which is probably the biggest deviation from the recipe pft utilized in his most recent endeavor.  I believe that the higher hydration % that was used in this recipe made for a very "wet" dough, which did make it a bit tougher to form than say, a Lehman NY Style recipe.

5.)  Notice the minimal amount of salt used in this recipe.  I really can't say at all what effect this may or may not have had on the final product, but it is interesting to note.  Some of you may be able to offer insight on the ramifications/results of using minimal salt in the recipe.  I used it primarily because the KA00 tends to give off a "salty" taste as it is, so i didn't want to add any more salt that would make it too salty.  But I really don't know the effect it had on the fermentation, texture, etc.

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #61 on: March 17, 2005, 10:56:46 AM »
Friz,
Thanks for sharing.

I believe its time we focus in on crafting the Master Dough Preparation Sequence. I have modified the dough preparation sequence to include most of the great tips from our membership. I would appreciate a collaborative effort to review, comment and improve the sequence so that we are able to develop a definitive Master Dough Preparation Sequence which represents our collective best thinking. The benefit of developing a master template should be to allow a home pizza maker the greatest opportunity to experience general success in reproducing an authentic NYC style pizza. Additionally, it should allow the advanced pizza maker the opportunity to achieve greatness with a Patsy's style crust. It should be duplicatable for all no matter one's level of skill. To my knowledge this will be the first collaborative global effort to demystify the vagueries associated in dough making. We're talking about creating history. How's that for an ROI!

Master Dough Preparation Sequence:
Stir water and salt with spoon until dissolved in stand mixer bowl. Add approximately half the flour. Add yeast and starter (optional). Set stand mixer on stir for 1 minute. Allow it to rest for 20 minutes. Start mixing on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in half of remaining flour gradually. Allow the dough to rest for 3 minutes. Mix for 3 minutes on 2 adding in remaining flour. Get out thermometer, check dough temperature; it should be 80 degrees at the hook. If not, use warmer or colder water next time to adjust. Allow dough to rest for 15 minutes. During this time you can refresh your starter.

Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area using ancient knuckle and folding technique. Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, wipe bowls lightly with oil, drop dough balls into bowls, cover with shower caps (a really neat tip from Pete-zza). Place dough and starter into the refrigerator to ferment for at least 24 hours. On the following day, remove the dough from the refrigerator and allow it to warm to room temperature approximately 60 -120 minutes.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 11:23:59 AM by pftaylor »
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Offline friz78

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #62 on: March 17, 2005, 11:32:19 AM »
PFT,
Great work and leadership on creating a "Master Dough Preparation Sequence."  As this sequence is refined and adjusted, it will be an invaluable  tool for any and all of us to utilize in our pizza making.  I would say, though, that at this point I'm not sure we have the exact kneading technique identified and/or perfected.  I tend to share Pete-zza's questions about the value and importance of an autolyse for pizza dough preparation.  As Pete has pointed out on several threads in the past, "it seems highly unlikely that  a commerical pizzeria would utilize an autolyse in its dough preparation techniques." 

While Pete and I may ultimately stand corrected in our belief at some point in time, it seems to me that more experimentation is need with and without an autolyse to determine its real benefit or not.  Like Pete, my sense is that the refrigeration/retardation serves the same purpose as that of an autolyse, but that is nothing more than gut level feeling on my part.  Pete may have some more scientific explanation for this.  I know that personally, I hope we find there isn't a need for an autolyse, as it would eliminate yet another time consuming step in dough preparation, albeit a somewhat minor one.

I would be happy to volunteer to initiate an experiment that tests the value of the autolyse.  It should be fairly simple - just create two doughs, one that includes an autolyse and one that does not.  Then compare and contrast the differences in the final product of each one, if there are any.  Although, I believe that Pete has conducted this experiment himself in the past.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #63 on: March 17, 2005, 12:14:38 PM »
I hate to rain on the parade, but I think we are unduly complicating matters. Part of the problem in trying to lay out in detail all the steps for an ideal kneading sequence is that there are too many different models of stand mixers out there, with different powers, operating speeds (RPMs) and settings. That alone will throw off all the times and results. I think the more useful approach is to recite a simple sequence of steps and indicate the condition of the dough at the conclusion of each step that you are trying to achieve. The sequence may or may not include one or more rest periods. If Friz's or someone else's experimentation proves that such rest periods are valuable, then they can be included in the sequence. Like Friz, I would hope that rest periods are not necessary.

I also think there is a lot of latitude in how the dough is readied for refrigeration after the kneading is completed. As far as I am concerned, there are many possibilities, from using plastic storage bags, empty bread bags, plastic, wood or metal containers, etc. Remember that our refrigerators are not commercial coolers and they also vary all over the place, so there is no easy way of controlling whatever is to happen to the dough, in whatever container it reposes, once it gets into any particular refrigerator. From that point forward, the matter is pretty much in the hands of the Gods.

I would prefer that the sequence of events be defined in broad terms and leave the wordsmithing for later. In the meantime, experiments can proceed, with either a NY style or Patsy style in mind, and the results can be posted and used to refine the sequences if necessary. In this vein, I would invite Friz to do a side-by-side comparison to test out the concept of rest periods, trying as much as possible under the circumstances to have the two doughs/pizzas be as close to each other as possible--and as simple as possible--so as to provide a meaningful comparison of the results. This suggests as few toppings as possible so that the crust is the star of the show, not the toppings.

Peter


Offline bakerboy

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2005, 01:28:51 PM »
From experience i think that ilpzzaiolos recipe on the first page of this thread is a good working recipe.  At the pizza shop our recipe was similar only we did not use any straight yeast, we used 5 lb. of fermented dough for a 25 lb. flour recipe.  This was mixed using cool (@70F) water until just coming together and no wet spots were visible.  It was rested for 15 to 20 min. then mixed on low speed for 6 min.  This dough was portioned, balled up, covered and refrigerated for the following days use.  if it was needed sooner, a portion of it was left at room temp.
Pete-zza makes a good point.  Recipes are one thing but mixing times, different mixers, ambient temp., cold rising, are things that i would consider intangible.  Too many variables.  Each has to use these recipes as a guide line and make adjustments for YOUR working conditions.
I have never eaten Patsy's pizza so i am flying blind but i'll contribute what i can.
Barry

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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2005, 01:59:44 PM »
Pete-zza,
Simply put, I concur. I am a cheerleader in this entire process. I am not trying to enforce any particular approach to the final outcome. I truly want this to be a collaborative process where the experts join together to produce a world-class recipe.

bakerboy,
Nice of you to join the Patsy's party. I was so hopeful that you would jump in and today I noticed you did. Thanks for your tips and we all here appreciate another master pizzaiolo's input. Could you share with us some of your background so the community will have a sense your of depth of experience?

Also, I wanted to show a picture I took today of a batch I made utilizing the proposed "Master Dough Preparation Sequence." The dough was considerably wetter. I had a hard time accepting the fact that it still was a 60% hydration ball. I checked my math twice and it was true. 
« Last Edit: March 17, 2005, 03:52:43 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline friz78

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2005, 06:38:21 PM »
pft,
Any sense of the factors that led to a wetter end product this time?  Something with the mixing time/technique?  The way you added the flour this time?  Any sense about what might have made a difference would be great to hear about.  It looks like a much more hydrated dough ball than 60%.
Friz

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2005, 06:57:24 PM »
Friz,
I followed the master dough procedure to the letter. The answer to your question undoubtably had to be the rest periods. The upfront 20 minute rest period really set the whole process in motion. After that it was as if I couldn't add enough flour to dry it out.

My sense is the water was allowed enough time to super saturate the flour. The absorption process takes time. I am now convinced that you need to gradually introduce flour into the water. Absorption is not immediate.
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Offline friz78

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2005, 11:10:44 PM »
I made two dough balls tonight with this recipe.  One of the doughs I used the exact techniques that pft outlined and the other dough was made with no autolyse whatsoever.  I found very little difference between the end product of each respective dough.  They were almost identical in every way.  I certainly did not experience the "moistening" effect that pft did with his autolyse technique.  I used the same technique without any of the same results.  Actually, both of my dough balls resemble the texture that pft described in his initial effort with this recipe.  At this point, I am not very optimistic about this dough making a fluffy, light Patsy's pizza.  The dough ball already seems too elastic and dense, almost rock-like.

If I were to make a prediction, I would say that we will be jacking up the hydration percentage in this recipe very soon.  But, who knows, maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised with the outcome of this experiment.

Offline varasano

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VERY HELPFUL SPREADSHEET
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2005, 12:51:14 AM »
Save this to your drive and we can all use it:

http://www.think2020.com/jv/Dough/PizzaRecipe.xls

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Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2005, 01:02:53 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't have time to read all of these posts.  I'm not going to have time to make many batches in the near future.   I'll mail out the starter on Mon.

Going back to my Kitchen aid??? ...It's kind of like asking me to ride a tricycle to work. I'll give it one shot since I now have more experience with autolyse and gradual inclusion of flour. But I was ready to throw the machine out a window when I finally went on the hunt for a replacement.

The DLX is only $469. It's not the price of a Hobart. I did a LOT of research into finding the right machine and was even willing to spend $1500 and ended up with this machine. I'm pretty happy with the improvement, although I think a commercial spiral mixer may be even better.

I'll tell you this, a low hydration dough in the Kitchen Aid will never happen. We may yet end up with a higher hydration recipe and then the KA may have some use. Otherwise, it's a museum piece.

In the spreadsheet I'm using a huge amount of starter compared to what Marco uses. The measurement of 440g starter per 1100g batch is right, I've measured that.  But the other measurements are guesses since I've never measured.  I'm going to go back and make a batch using my own best recipe, but this time I'm going to measure.

I've got the starter listed as a 50/50 batter. I'm not going to be anal about measuring the actual hydration of it. I'm just going to assume that that's about right.


Jeff

Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2005, 04:08:12 AM »
The Food Network is doing a Pizza & Pasta weekend. Check it out.

Jeff

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2005, 07:19:59 AM »
Friz,
I'm as baffled as you are. From the picture I posted you can see the copious amounts of wetness in the dough. Late last night I peeked at the dough in the fridge and the dough balls seemed dense and hard upon poking. Just like the last batch. So maybe once the dough balls are formed they revert back to being dense somehow.

Now one possible difference is I used 2 tablespoons of starter. Other than that, I cannot think of why there is a difference. I will take photos tonight of what the dough looks like as I prepare for pizza night.
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Offline friz78

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #73 on: March 18, 2005, 08:27:17 AM »
PFT,
It will be interesting to see the results.  You are right, the only thing that I could sense would make a difference in our preparation was your use of a starter. 

Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #74 on: March 18, 2005, 05:29:24 PM »
Was it a Patsy's quality crust?

Well almost. It was definitely a big step in the right direction. Dough was allowed to warm to room temperature for 3 hours after a cold rise of exactly 24 hours. It was much easier to work with and stretch. No holes. You can almost see the moisture on the dough balls. They were much much wetter than the last batch and not anywhere as dense. Excellent results across the board. Verified by entire family. Sorry about the grill spring shots not being part of the series but on both pies they were too blurry to post. Spring was superb. My opinion is that the recipe works very well and produces my most competent crust yet. I'm grinning right now.

Pie number 1 was a pepperoni with Grande Whole milk mutz. Pie number 2 was a Margherita with Polly - O Fresh Mutz.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 06:13:52 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2005, 05:30:57 PM »
More pictures of the pepperoni pie which is favored by my family. Sorry about the blurry shots...
« Last Edit: March 18, 2005, 06:10:58 PM by pftaylor »
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2005, 05:32:50 PM »
Pictures of the Margherita pie with Polly - O fresh mutz
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2005, 05:34:13 PM »
More of pie #2
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Offline pftaylor

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2005, 06:28:59 PM »
I'm going to be in NYC on the 27th and 28th. Is Patsy's and Di Fara's open on Sunday? If so, I'm going to load up on pies and pictures.
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Offline varasano

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Re: Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2005, 11:56:38 PM »
Patsy's is open on Sunday.  let me know if they continue to go downhill. I got a report recently. very bad. Such a shame.

These pies look pretty good. Still too much heat on top, I think.  Pretty good blistering. I think you can lighten your ball and make the same size pie.  It's so tempting to load up on ingredients, but if you look at Patsy's or Marco's pies, you'll see theres much less sauce and cheese. It's strange, because you wouldn't think it would affect the crust, but somehow it does.  I suggest you lighten quite up a bit.

Have you downloaded my spreadsheet? that's an awesome sheet for this project.


Jeff

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