Sicilian Dough ????

[Pete-zza]

John,

At the moment, the Lehmann dough calculator is not set up for rectangular pies but it can be used for round Sicilian pies, which some pizza operators make even though rectangular is the classic shape. However, it is possible to "fool" the tool to get the numbers for a rectangular pie. What you have to do is convert the surface area and thickness factor of the rectangular pie (length times width times a thickness factor, e.g., 0.13) into a round pie and play around with the thickness factor in the tool until you get the same dough weight as for the rectangular pie. For example, in the Lehmann dough recipe I posted in this thread if you solve for the square root of 28.08/(3.14159 x 0.13), you will get 8.3 for the equivalent radius, or 16.6 for the diameter. Since the tool works only for whole numbers for the pizza size, you would put either 16" or 17" in the pizza size box and play around with the thickness factor until you get close to 28.08 ounces total dough weigh in the table at the bottom of the tool . The tool will then give you the proper quantities for all the ingredients.

I haven't studied Marco's numbers for his Sicilian dough formulation carefully so I don't know whether this approach can be used with Marco's dough formulation but it should be possible with Big Dave's dough formulation in addition to the Lehmann one. If you get to the point where you decide to give one of the recipes a try I should be able to help you with the numbers.

Peter

[gschwim]

Another possibility, especially if you have a digital scale with tare ("zeroing") capability, is to (1) "zero" the scale, with the pan you want to use on it, (2) make an amount of dough that you are certain is more than you need, press it into the pan you want to use, take away the excess and then weigh the filled pan.  If you can't zero your scale, then take the dough out of the pan and weigh it separately.  Then use the resulting weight for future pies.

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

That approach will work but unless 1) you have baker's percents to begin with, or 2) if you don't have baker's percents, keep track of the actual quantities of all the ingredients used and the final dough weight and then use that data to calculate baker's percents and a thickness factor, you won't be able to accurately and consistently replicate the results again. Having baker's percents and a thickness factor takes away the need to use your approach.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

about 50 x 35 cm. Do not use a rolling pin. Flatten by hand and then adjust it in the pan. The thickness should be about 1.5-2 cm (it wil double thanks to the oven spring).

Marco,

I was studying your Sicilian dough formulation at Reply 6 more closely and noted from Reply 16 that the pan size you use is 50 cm. by 35 cm. That is equal to a pan that is 19.7" by 13.8", or roughly 20" by 14". If you are using 500-600 grams (17.7-21.2 oz.) of dough in that size pan, it would seem that the dough would be stretched out quite thin, quite a bit less than 1.5-2 cm (0.59-0.79"), and especially if 500 grams of dough is used. Did I get something wrong?

Also, can you describe the "fine semolina flour" with further detail? In the U.S., semolina flour is most often fairly coarse. Is fine semolina flour durum flour, as is often used to make pasta? I did a search and found this, http://chefshop.com/Itemdesc.asp?CameFrom=Search&CartId=104134-EVEREST-26ELGON34&ic=4732&tpc=&SR=, but I don't know if that is what you are talking about. Maybe this discussion at the theartisan.net site will also help: http://www.theartisan.net/sicilian_bread.htm.

Thank you, Marco.

Peter

[pizzanapoletana]

You stretch the dough, don't flatten it... Yes, is quite thin but that type of dough, will puff up... it is suppose to be light, not bready....

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer. You can adjusting by changing the flour to 60% organic strong/high gluten wheat flour and 40% "Semola rimacinata di Grano Duro". In England the closest approx to it is Fine Semolina Flour (the other is coarse). Some pasta "semolina" are to coarse, but I have also seen some quite fine.

Ciao

[tonymark]

Why is the spiral mixer so important for your original recipe that Peter referenced?  Is this really just about gluten development.  Have you seen this type of dough mixed other ways?  Is it possible?  What is a good substitute mixing technique?

TM

[pizzanapoletana]

Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao

[tonymark]

Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.  Marco, I know you are a brilliant pizza maker/consultant, but you are telling me there is no way to hand knead or mix this type of dough.  Did they make this type of pizza 100 years ago?  If so, how did they do it without a fork, diving arms or spiral mixer?

You're not a details kind of guy.  I get it.  You are writing a book, but give us something here.  Hell, sell us your long overdue book.

TM

[pizzanapoletana]

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer.

The note above is your answer. (difficult, if I read correctly is not impossible, and I said Spiral, not fork or others).

Make it by hand and then tell me how you went about it.... Anyway, is an evolution of the really ancient form of focaccia (almost liquid batter poured on a pan and cooked in an oven) but was only developed like that about 30 years ago in Rome...

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.

Again if this answer doesn't satisfy you, there is nothing I can do about it. I am not in a competititon or trying to prove myself.

Thanks

Marco

[CanuckJim]

Marco,

This isn't an entry into the dough discussion, but it is a vivid memory of my early teenage years in Philadelphia, actually a nearby eighteenth century riverbank town called Manayunk ("Manny-unk").  Then, it was primarily inhabited by Sicilians.  There were several, probably highly illegal, wood-fired beehive ovens built on the backs of the row-houses.  These were used to bake the torpedo buns for Philadelphia-style cheesesteaks and hoagies served in places like Pat's in South Philadelphia.  But, rectangular Sicilian pizzas were also baked in these ovens, not for sale, necessarily, more for the baker's family.  I well remember driving down the communal laneway between these houses to visit one such bakery.  The pizza was baked in a rectangular pan, was quite chewy, about an inch and a half thick, topped with homemade tomato sauce and fresh oregano.  The pizza was first baked a bit, then the sauce went on, and it was baked a bit more.  The oregano was sprinkled on after it came out of the oven.  My recollection is that a square piece about six inches by six inches cost a quarter.

Jim

[nepa-pizza-snob]

Any of you New Yorkers (current residents or otherwise) ever been to Spumoni Gardens in Brooklyn? Now they
make a sicilian style pizza that I remember. Thick light, airy dough with a crispy bottom topped with a bit o magic!

[joebot]

abc,

Thanks for the writeup. One of these days I will have to give the Sicilian a try. Maybe one of the recipes calling for semolina.

Peter

Hey I tried the one  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg19680.html#msg19680 and substituted 25% semolina, and increased the hydration to 63% for kicks and giggles LOL ...came out real well, even though I just have an aluminum sheet pan and not a "real " sicillian pan  thanks for the formula !
 
 have a good week !
 
 Joe

[David]

I took my first stab at Marco's 100% semolina method that is at the beginning of this thread.I followed his weights & measures and made it simply - just adorned with sea salt.It made enough dough to fill two standard jelly roll pans.It was refrigerated overnight and then left out at room temp for about six hrs.I very lightly coated the pan and dough with evoo.It was cookd in the pan on a stone for about 12 min.I took it out of the pan after it was almost done and placed it on the stone for about two mins.It had a nice crisp bite (not a crunch ) and was fairly light.I had to hazard a guess with the amount of yeast as my scale batteries just died.I probably should have had a little more.My wife gave it two thumbs up however.
            David

[David]

Here's the remainder of the second one that was made with Olives,Feta,Onions,San Marzanos,Oregano and EVOO.This was cooked longer and was crunchier due to that.I would have preffered it with oven dried toms,but I hadn't pre planned this in time.

[pizzanapoletana]

David, well done to you, I have just noticed those pictures.

Ciao

[RoadPizza]

Here's an old Sicilian recipe I found.  The ingredients are pretty interesting:

Sicilian Pizza

Ingredients:
5 qts.      Cold Water
7 qts.      Whole Milk
4-5 ozs.   Yeast
8 oz.      Salt
8 oz.      Sugar
50 lbs.      High Gluton Flour
3 lbs.      Block Butter
16 lbs.       Idaho Potatoes (Peeled, Boiled, & Mashed)

Method of Preparation:
Mix 9 minutes.
Cut & roll.

Yields: 45 32 oz. Dough Balls

Method of Cooking:
1)   Place in oven and bake at 550F.  Cooking time is approximately 10 – 15 minutes.  Sicilians are done when bottoms begin to brown.
2)   Remove from oven and allow to stand, in tray, at room temperature, to cool.
3)   Once cool, not warm, remove from tray and stack in the following manner:
Bottom Sicilian top up
Second Sicilian top down
Third Sicilian top up
Fourth Sicilian top down
   Continue in this manner.
   
NOTE: No more than 6 high, or you will crush bottom Sicilian.  Place in a plastic bag and refrigerate.  Sicilians should be prepared daily to ensure a fresh product.

Method of Serving:
1)   Take 1 Sicilian from refrigerator and place bottom side down in a clean, oiled Sicilian tray.
2)   Add 1 ladle of Pizza Sauce (10 oz.) and spread evenly over Sicilian.  Be certain to go right to the edge, (no crust), and include corners.
3)   Sprinkle with 16 oz. of Pizza Cheese.
4)   Bake until cheese begins to brown.

Portions Per Serving:
1)   1 Sicilian should be cut into 8 slices.
2)   Serve hot always.

[MWTC]

Here's an old Sicilian recipe I found.  The ingredients are pretty interesting:

Sicilian Pizza

Ingredients:
5 qts.      Cold Water
7 qts.      Whole Milk
4-5 ozs.   Yeast
8 oz.      Salt
8 oz.      Sugar
50 lbs.      High Gluton Flour
3 lbs.      Block Butter
16 lbs.       Idaho Potatoes (Peeled, Boiled, & Mashed)

Method of Preparation:
Mix 9 minutes.
Cut & roll.

Yields: 45 32 oz. Dough Balls

Method of Cooking:
1)   Place in oven and bake at 550F.  Cooking time is approximately 10 – 15 minutes.  Sicilians are done when bottoms begin to brown.
2)   Remove from oven and allow to stand, in tray, at room temperature, to cool.
3)   Once cool, not warm, remove from tray and stack in the following manner:
Bottom Sicilian top up
Second Sicilian top down
Third Sicilian top up
Fourth Sicilian top down
   Continue in this manner.
   
NOTE: No more than 6 high, or you will crush bottom Sicilian.  Place in a plastic bag and refrigerate.  Sicilians should be prepared daily to ensure a fresh product.

Method of Serving:
1)   Take 1 Sicilian from refrigerator and place bottom side down in a clean, oiled Sicilian tray.
2)   Add 1 ladle of Pizza Sauce (10 oz.) and spread evenly over Sicilian.  Be certain to go right to the edge, (no crust), and include corners.
3)   Sprinkle with 16 oz. of Pizza Cheese.
4)   Bake until cheese begins to brown.

Portions Per Serving:
1)   1 Sicilian should be cut into 8 slices.
2)   Serve hot always.

Peter,

Could/Would you convert this into bakers percents?

Seems interesting to me. 

MWTC 

[November]

Could/Would you convert this into bakers percents?

100.0000%   high-gluten flour
 32.0000%   potatoes, mashed
 30.1240%   milk, whole
 20.8635%   water
  6.0000%   butter
  1.0000%   salt
  1.0000%   sugar
  0.5625%   yeast (based on 4.5 oz)

[November]

I thought that maybe somebody might be interested in having this recipe converted to dry ingredients for easier portion management when preparing smaller batches.

100.0000%   high-gluten flour
 71.6128%   water
  7.7659%   potato flakes
  6.0000%   butter
  3.6088%   milk powder, whole fat
  1.0000%   salt
  1.0000%   sugar
  0.5625%   yeast

[MWTC]

Beautiful Red.November 

Thank-you.

MWTC