Sicilian Dough ????

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Let me take a look at what I wrote and the recipes again to see which of the recipes is translatable into something you can use in your new pan. It may be possible to come up with a dough weight for your size pan but I don't know offhand if your pan will be deep enough.

As for your pan, it sounds like it is an anodized aluminum pan. Depending on its coating, it may or may not need seasoning. It won't hurt, however, to coat the pan with a bit of vegetable oil and put it in a 425-450 degree F oven for about a half hour. I personally wouldn't use the oven clean cycle since that gets up to such a high temperature that I am not sure what it will do when the temperature exceeds the flash point of the oil. The high temperature might also damage the coating or cause other damage to the pan. From what you say, it doesn't sound like your coating is Teflon. If it is, I don't think I would use the oven clean cycle. At high temperatures, Teflon breaks down and can emit fumes that may well be toxic.

The old rusted pans you mentioned are most likely seasoned bare metal pans without coatings. The have to remain dry and seasoned to work well.

Peter

[abc]

thanks... i guess it starts with a 12 by 18 inch pan has x amount of square inches would be the equivalent to a recipe of a y diameter round pie, then double or triple the thickness?... = the weight of the doughball needed.

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Actually, the way you calculate the required amount of dough is the same as with a round pizza but you use the square inches for a rectangular (or square) Sicilian pan, along with the recommended thickness factor (TF). So, in your case, the required amount of dough is equal to 18" x 12" x TF, where TF has a typical value for Sicilian ("thick") style of 0.12-0.13. In one case, noted in my post from which you quoted, Dave Ostrander recommended a dough weight for a 10" x 14" pan of 22 ounces. That translates to a thickness factor TF of 0.157. I personally think the 0.157 number is too high, given that Big Dave recommends 0.12-0.13 for the Sicilian style. But, it's up to you. I think I can convert any one of the three recipes to fit your pan, with any thickness factor you prefer. If you'd like to revisit the three recipes, I will try to give you the amounts of ingredients to use for the recipe you'd like to start with. Just let me know which one and what thickness factor you would like to use. Keep in mind at the same time that the Lehmann recipe and the Ostrander recipe use different processing of the dough to make the Sicilian pizzas.

I also went to the pizzatools.com website to check on typical pan depths for Sicilian. The depths of the Sicilian pans sold by pizzatools.com are 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Big Dave recommends 2 inches. However, I think a dough ball using a thickness factor of 0.12-0.13 should work with your 1-inch deep pan. For example, looking at the Correll Concepts formulation and using a thickness factor of 0.12 will yield a dough ball weight of around 26 ounces. That's about the weight of dough for a fairly thick 16-inch NY style or a thin 18-inch NY style. Using thickness factors of 0.13 and 0.157 will mean dough ball weights of around 28 ounces and 34 ounces, respectively.

As a footnote, I might add that some bakers actually prefer bromated flours for the Sicilian style. Potassium bromate is an oxidizing agent that strengthens the dough between the time that the dough is put into pans to proof and the time of baking. This results in a higher volume dough. I'm not recommending that you use the bromated flour, because bromates are suspected carcinogens and banned in many countries, but just mention it so you are aware of its significance in the Sicilian context.

Peter

[abc]

what can i say, Pete thanks again for punching in.  I'd really like to work with the Lehmann recipe and see how it comes out.

I don't know what the deal is with these 2" deep pans.  I'm in NYC my whole life and I've never seen a place use a pan with such a tall side wall.

They are all around 1", give or take .5"  They wouldn't be able to cut through with the wheel, they already slide in a spatula to lift the square to make the crust cut.

I'll go with your .12 to .13 thickness factor.  Years ago I made a potato based scillian and I loved squares as high as I could find, but these days I'd like something with a little less carbs and more artisan.

DiFara's bottom tastes of olive oil and garlic powder.  It's very very good.  It's less thick than the 'generic' NYC pizzerias, while more crispy and charred on the bottom.  So rustic looking, and the toppings are sooo aromatic.
 
But I think some people would actually consider Difara's squares to be burnt.

I seasoned my new pan already, boy does it get hot!  holding that heat.  It will be interesting using this pan for the first time, when I get a chance, perhaps this weekend.

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Here you go.

Assuming a thickness factor of 0.13, the amount of dough you will need for your 18" x 12" pan is 18  x 12 x 0.13 = 28.08 ounces (796.08 g.).

The amounts of ingredients you will need are set forth in the recipe below. You will note that the Lehmann Sicilian dough recipe as originally posted calls for bread flour with a protein content of 11.7%. I usually use the King Arthur brand of bread flour, which has a protein content of 12.7%. Whatever bread flour you have on hand should work fine. You can even use a higher gluten flour if you'd like but if you do that you may want to increase the amount of water a bit. I did not convert the bread flour to volume measurements in the recipe posted below because I don't have any bread flour on hand at the moment. But you will note that the flour comes to a bit over a pound. I also converted the cake yeast called for in the Lehmann recipe to instant dry yeast (IDY), for convenience.

Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan
100%, Bread flour, 16.90 oz. (479.08 g.)
2.5%, Salt (table salt), 0.42 oz. (11.98 g.), (a bit over 2 1/8 t.)
5.0%, Olive oil, 0.85 oz. (23.95 g.), (1 T. plus 2 1/8 t.)
0.67%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.21 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
58%, Water, 9.80 oz. (277.86 g.), (1 /1/4 c.)
Total dough ball weight = 28.08 oz. (796.08 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.13

I would make the dough just like you have been making the Lehmann NY style dough. When you are ready to pan the dough, you may want to take a look at Big Dave's instructions for oiling the pan. You need a fair amount of oil to get that crispiness you seem to want. There's also no reason that I can see why you can't use Big Dave's instructions for using the dough rather than Tom L's if you think you'd like Big Dave's approach better.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter

[abc]

lol 'abc's pan'...  thanks!  I think I still have some KA Bread Flour from having last used it before the summer.  Though it's getting a bit late tonight to whip up some dough.  You got it, I'll be reporting my efforts, least I could do for all you've put in.

You know, I was thinking one thing... a few years ago when I last had a period of time where i dabbled with square pies, even before using a potato infused recipe, i had doughs that had a lot of rise after flattening it out into the square pan (recipes specifiying generous yeast amts).  I think it would either third or almost double if I remember, 2 hrs after stretching it out onto the square pan that I had at that time.

with this Lehmann dough, which doesn't even really rise in the fridge (so many recipes say 'rise until double') I do wonder how I should approach this.

The Lehmann dough should have a fridge rise of at least 24hrs, can we agree.  And I've aimed for 18 to 24hrs when making round pies.  Usually I mix it one night, bake it the next night for dinner.

I was thinking with respect to making a square pie, I would/should want to have as much of the 18 to 24hrs rising time done while the dough is 'plated' on my square pan...  something like 12 hrs doughball rise in fridge, 13th to 24th hrs plated rise on square pan... which would be room temp rise since i cant fit the tray into the fridge.
But I probably won't end up doing this, I'll follow how Lehmann instructs his recipe to be done.

I'm not sure how pizza places in NYC do their squares.  I see stacks of square pans seperated usually with wax/parchment paper.

Maybe they use 48hr-ish doughs, 1 business day as a ball rise, the 2nd day is a plated rise.


When I make round pies, if I let the Lehmann dough rise 24hrs in the fridge just like for a round pie, then plate it on the screen, it takes just a few min for it to relax... 45min of rest after this and I won't even see any rise as it's such a slow dough.

Your writeup of the Lehmann says:  "allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F" after plating.

I guess the thicker dough and oven spring are the keys to my macro concern here.


With the round pie Lehmann dough I do take it out of the fridge and preheat the oven, make some toppings etc.  next thing i know, i've given the cold dough the recommended 60-90 min. to warm up some to room temp.

with the square pie, maybe I can save some time by plating it soon after taking it out of the fridge, then let it warm to room temp and rise while plated.

[abc]

here's my pan.  i've delayed my experiments because of the holidays.

[enob]

I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?

[Ronzo]

Where I come from in NY, Sicillian pie is much, MUCH thicker than a regular NY round pie. think of the thickness and density of Pizza Hut's Pan pizza, only thicker and a little 'fluffier' (and rectangular).

Even the NY pie places here in Austin that I go to make it that way.

[abc]

I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?

yes, me being in nyc... yes most of the run of the mill neighborhood pizza shops simply use the same dough as of their round pies, just more of it onto a square tray.
give it some rise time, and you got the typical 12 square slice square pie.

as good as they have been from since i was a child,
there are more artisan sicilian pies out there, just as there are more artisan round pies.

that's what i personally am striving for.

[abc]

Okay here's one pic of a sicilian i recently made based on earlier discussion.

[scott r]

Yes, Yes, Yes!

A true work of art.

Makes me miss Pittsburgh.

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Your pie looks great.

Did you use the Lehmann dough formulation and procedures as referenced in Reply #24 in this thread? Also, can you fill us in on how the process went and how you liked the pizza? I'd also be interested in the sauce you used. I know your fondness for the DiFara Sicilian pie so I hope that your pizza was satisfying nonetheless. Any advice would also be appreciated.

Peter

[abc]

Peter, I most certainly did utilize the formulation you computed for my black tray.

I had seasoned the pan over the past 6 wks or so, and last week when i was in the mood and had some KA bread flour I took on the task.

Sauce:
basically a can of tuttoroso (forgot exact spelling)  i had on the shelf, which was labelled as 'crushed' tomatoes became the source of my sauce.  I didnt like that their 'crushed' looks more like pureed tomatoes... either they misabled from the factory, my 12 can case, or they changed their product designated for 'crushed' because a few yrs ago crushed meant crushed with this brand.

Anyway, i had 2 fresh tomatoes that i mildly pulsed in to mix, so i can have a fresher brighter overall flavor.  i also finely pulsed in 1 very small onion, which i usually don't do.  Pulsed fresh basil as well... then some:  salt, sugar, oregano, thyme.  Then I coarse chopped a handful of garlic and tossed it into 1 minute heated olive oil, then poured this into the tomatoes and mixed, set it aside overnight.

Toppings:  pepperoni sliced from a Corando stick, briefly blanched to remove some grease and what I feel is excess salt/sodium.
Cheese, I blended 6 slices of Provolone with shredded Pollyo low moisture whole milk mozzarella, then freshly grated tad of Parmigiano Reggiano, then some oregano, then a bit of drizzled olive oil all over the pie.

Dough:  I had the dough in the fridge for about 8 hrs, then I oiled the pan with olive oil, dusted it with semolina, and handstretched the dough to fill the tray.  Wasn't very difficult a process.  Then I put the tray into my fridge and let it rise overnight... it was about 16 hrs after that, and about thusly 24hrs total, I took it out and let it rest on the counter for 3hrs. 

An hour before I put the dough into the oven I preheated it with my stone (though I don't think I really needed the stone).

I parbaked the dough with the tray of course, for about 5-6 min, took it out, topped with a substantial layer of sauce, put it in for about another 6 min, took it out and it was steaming...

Topped it with plenty of cheese and pepproni, then a final shot of more sauce, and a final back for about 5 min.  This time I used my broiler method to heat the top.

I have some more pics but they aren't great.  I had it on macro mode but i did a poor job of focusing.

It was a very good pizza.  It was very similar to a NY pizzaria kind of square, but the oil on the bottom aspect allowed it to be crispy and rich.

It's not the same as Difara because his is a different dough, and his finished crust bottom didn't have the look of having risen on the tray for a long time like regular pizzerias, mine included.  Maybe he doesn't bake his on a tray, i didn't see him make it! when I had it.   His is also a thinner dough.  Mine and the typical pizzeria NYC 5 borough square is about 3/4th of an inch high after parbaking.

[Pete-zza]

abc,

Thanks for the writeup. One of these days I will have to give the Sicilian a try. Maybe one of the recipes calling for semolina.

Peter

[babstinger]

Silly question, but what is EVO ?

Thanks!

True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...

[Pete-zza]

babstinger,

EVO = EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

You might also find our Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html, to come in handy in deciphering other acronyms.

Peter

[gschwim]

JimBob,

Do you know the recipe for the photo of the Scilian pizza that accompanies your posts?

Gene

[Pete-zza]

Gene,

JimBob hasn't been active on the forum for some time but I am pretty certain the recipe is the one posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.msg13966.html#msg13966.

Peter

[John39840]

This is such a cool topic. I'd even love to see Sicilian dough incorporated into the dough calculator. I might even make my very first Sicilian pie due to this thread.