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Author Topic: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00  (Read 28586 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2010, 12:36:24 AM »
Thx Al and that is an interesting concept concerning caputo holding up better under high heat.  Thanks for the insight.  Though I don't have a WFO, i do have a coal fire ceramic grill/oven that I can get up to temps. It may be interesting to compare same formula pies between the ceramic oven (900f) vs the home oven (900).
 
I can push the pizza stone to 900 whether in the ceramic oven or home oven under the broiler but it's not the same as a WFO since the upper and lower temps are not evenly matched.   
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 08:00:28 AM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #61 on: June 05, 2010, 01:43:10 AM »
Just made another step forward tonight.   After months of toiling I have finally achieved what I once thought was IMPOSSIBLE!  Making a [email protected] Nearlypolitan Pie in the home oven.  I almost nearly gave up on it several times, the bugger!

Here it is folks.....Introducing the "Almostpolitan Pies".  Hand kneaded (as usual) and baked in the home oven using broiler shenanigans. 

ALL dough management credit goes to TOBY.  Thanks for the detailed posts Toby.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:27:59 PM by Tranman »

Offline satgan

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2010, 06:43:28 AM »
Very nice ,Tranman

what recipe did you use ?

Offline norma427

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2010, 06:50:13 AM »
Just made another step forward tonight.   After months of toiling I have finally achieved what I once thought was IMPOSSIBLE!  Making a [email protected] Nearlypolitan Pie in the home oven. 

Here it is folks.....Introducing the "Almostpolitan Pies".  Hand kneaded (as usual) and baked in the home oven using broiler shenanigans. 

ALL dough management credit goes to TOBY.  Thanks for the detailed posts!



Tranman,

Your "Almostpolitan Pies" looks great.   ;D  Job well done. Toby also helped me a lot in the past.

I you want to read more about oven shenanigans with ovens here are some articles. One of the posters on these articles might be someone you will recognize.

Just go down the page in these links to read if you are interested.

To read more click on continued reading at the bottom of the article.

An Interesting 'Experiment' Demonstrating How Pizza Blisters Form

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/05/
   
To read more click on continues reading at the bottom of the article.

My Pie Monday (Tuesday Edition): Nathan's Amazing-Looking Conventional-Oven Pizzas

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/06/  

Norma
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:53:30 AM by norma427 »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2010, 08:44:36 AM »
Very nice ,Tranman

what recipe did you use ?

Thx Satgan.  The actual recipe is one I came up with.  I have been doing that for last couple of months.  Recipes are easy to make up.  It's a mixture of flour, water, starter, and salt.  The tricky part is the dough management or handling technique.  The pies are inspired by member Infoodel (Toby) and his thread "Nearlypolitan" found here...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10024.0.html.  The dough technique can be found in Toby's thread.  He spells it out step by step. 

Of the 3 pies, 2 are made with caputo, and one is 1/2 and 1/2 AP flour and HG flour. 
Scott123, can you pick out the HG flour.  This should be easy for you. 

Thanks for the links Norma, I'll have a look at them.

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2010, 09:15:38 AM »
Norma thank you for the kind words & links to the articles.  Some fun reading for me.  Looks like Toby has been busy.  I especially like the article on blister formation or leoparding.  Interesting to know fermentation seems to work against leoparding. 

As for the 2nd article, it's obvious Adam uses the broiler.  He could actually get more even browning/leoparding of the crust if he uses the "rimming" technique I've posted on the forum several times. 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2010, 04:46:24 AM by Tranman »

Offline norma427

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2010, 09:54:53 AM »
Norma thank you for the links to the articles.  Some fun reading for me.  Looks like Toby has been busy.  I especially like the article on blister formation or leoparding.  Interesting to know fermentation seems to work against leoparding. 

As for the 2nd article, it's obvious Adam uses the broiler.  He could actually get more even browning/leoparding of the crust if he uses the "rimming" technique I've posted on the forum several times. 

Tranman,

If you look though the archives there, you will find more.  Just click on a posters name and it will take you to their ideas. There are even some videos if you look long enough.  Most of the articles have are different things they have tried.  Some of the posters have great ideas.  I am not at the point of experimenting with those ideas, but find them interesting.  I am still learning about dough.

Norma

Offline satgan

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #67 on: June 05, 2010, 10:44:09 AM »
thank you!
tranman

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #68 on: June 05, 2010, 11:26:11 AM »
Of the 3 pies, 2 are made with caputo, and one is 1/2 and 1/2 AP flour and HG flour. 
Scott123, can you pick out the HG flour.  This should be easy for you. 

Easy? Really?  :P

First of all, you're not giving me a crumb shot, which, imo, makes it far more difficult, plus assuming your HG flour is in the 14% realm and the AP is about 11, that would put the 50/50 blend right smack dab in the caputo protein realm.  There's milling differences and most likely differing extensibilities, but, from what I can tell, the only major difference is the malt.

I'm still going to guess, though :)

The blend has to either be #1 or #3.  3 looks the most different, but that could be a changing oven environment.  It's tough.  Malt will encourage more even browning (#1) but it will also accelerate fermentation (the slightly weaker gluten structure of #3).  It's so close I could flip a coin.

Hmmm... I guess #3 looks too much like the 'odd man out.'  So, I'll go with 3.

 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #69 on: June 05, 2010, 02:41:31 PM »
Scott, the blend is #1, but you are spot on as usual in your reasoning.

Originally I had planned to bake these in my MBE (mini black egg).  Due to running out of time, I didn't finish the oven till 10pm last night.  The dough had to be cooked, so I fired up the MBE for a test run.

Needing a plan B in my pocket, I went ahead and fired up the home oven as well.  As it turned out, I was having trouble getting temps up on the MBE for several reasons, so I baked the first and 2nd pie in the home oven at 850 under the broiler and rimmed them to finish in my usual fashion.   I finally got a lot of leoparding which I will attribute to the dough technique rather than the ingredients or oven.

All the pies, including the blend (pie #1) had a moist soft crumb which I do like.  A little chew but not too much.

Meanwhile the MBE was still heating up but never reached temps that I wanted even after an hour.  I had a max temp of 700F and it was only in one spot.  Wanting to test it anyway, I loaded pie #3 (caputo) into the MBE and let it bake for about a minute.  I notice that this pie had gotten more rise than the previous caputo pie in the oven  but had no browning on top or bottom, so I took the pie in to finish under the oven broiler. 

So the color of pie #1 being darker than #2 and #3 would suggest HG flour while the similar patterns of Pie #1 and #2 would suggest they were baked under similar conditions while pie #3 had a slightly different oven/cooking set up.

So yes Scott, you are not crazy and your reasoning is sound as usual.   ;D
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:26:27 PM by Tranman »

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Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #70 on: June 05, 2010, 05:42:44 PM »
Drats! I guess I probably should have flipped a coin after all  :-D

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2010, 12:44:35 AM »
Made a very tasty pie tonight.  One with HG BF and one with caputo.  The caputo was better tasting but i think it was the cheese.   The HGBF had a mix of boar's head and belgioso while the caputo was a margherita with Precious Ciliengini fresh mozz in water.  It's those small pearls.

Precious by itself is rather bland and unimpressive.  But add sea salt to the water and let it sit for a day.  Wow what a difference.  If it's too salty than pour out some or all of the salt water and add bottled water and let it sit for another day. 

I'm impress with how this cheese melts and taste (hot and cooled) baked with a bit of olive oil.  I've been using Costco's Belgioso for a long time now but no more.  Trader Joes and now Precious is a better way to go until I find something better. 

Belgioso is pretty bland as well and is improved by adding sea salt but i don't like the way it melts or cools.  It's very rubbery after it cools.  Take a look at the last 2 pies in reply #61 above. That's belgioso.  

Anyways, this pie was quite tasty.  It was a 200gm ball baked up to a 10" pie.  I was suprise to have eaten about 1/3 of the HGBF pie and all of the caputo pie myself.    :P

Pics of the same pie.  2nd pic is just topped with basil and more EVOO.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 07:48:48 AM by Tranman »

Offline mako

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2010, 04:27:40 AM »
Great thread, guys. Every time I start to get to a point where I think 'these little things aren't worth worrying about, simplify and it'll all work out' I read something like this, and think of about 10 more variables I should be tracking. Thanks for inspiring the desire for experimentation, Tranman -- or, maybe, curse you for fostering another unhealthy obsession.  :)

Anyway, that Chris Bianco video is a total mind-blower. I've had doughs that were extensible like that, but they were also made of a superglue-like substance, totally impossible to handle, and they'd never come off the peel, and they'd tear in half if you looked at them funny. I've never had something that stretches like that and is actually workable. Going for less gluten development instead of more is really strange -- I'll have to give it a try.

But first I have to build a refractory top for my LBE. I said I'd do that before I made another pizza. (I have to make deals like that with myself or I'll never stop.)

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2010, 06:53:41 AM »
Thanks for inspiring the desire for experimentation, Tranman -- or, maybe, curse you for fostering another unhealthy obsession.

you're welcome.  I try...I do  ;)

Going for less gluten development instead of more is really strange -- I'll have to give it a try.

Yes, to me it was initially somewhat counterintuitive but it works.  When I first started making pizza, I assumed that  I wasn't kneading enough b/c I would read about knead times using mechanical mixers.  The thought was that if a mixer is more efficient than mixing by hand, I need to mix for just as long or longer.  In my case, the longer I mixed the drier the crumb became.  I then counter balanced that by increasing my hydration ratio's.  Higher hydration ratios in turn required more kneading to get it to the "proper feel and condition".  So I was gradually increasing my hydration ratios without a better crumb.  My hydration ratios were getting into the 80%+ and I would still occasionally get a dry crumb. I had no clue what was going on and chalked it up to another pizza mystery or the high altitude environment.  I also did not understand how everyone else was working with a 60%+ hydration ratio. 

That was until Scott123 help open my eyes.  I have since lowered my amount of kneading dramatically with better results.  I now knead very minimally and rather gently.  And it's only to incorporate residual flour or to get it mixed well.  I do not knead with the goal in mind to develop gluten.  Bulk, cold ferment, and proof times will develop gluten naturally. 

Even dimpled or cottage cheese looking dough can be taken to that nice satiny smooth look by just letting it rest for 10min or so.  Then do just a few folds and the look and feel of the dough has dramatically changed without any extra kneading. 

I have also learned that if you knead the dough while it is wet, it is more forgivable if you accidentally over knead.  In a drier state over kneading can really develop that gluten quite easily and give too much chew to the crust.  Anyways, these are just a few things I've been learning.  I hope these tips are useful for those hand kneading. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 07:42:09 AM by Tranman »

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2010, 10:56:19 PM »
I just tried a <2 minute mix tonight. I must admit I was sceptical at first but overall I'm impressed with the results. The crumb was less chewy and softer - slightly 'bready' but not in a bad way.
I tip my hat to Chau and Scott for opening my eyes to another technique. It may not completely replace my usual kneading regime - I definitely think it may require a touch more kneading for Caputo (compared to high gluten) and possibly a few additional strokes about half an hour or so into bulk ferment but it's certainly a useful tool/concept. Thanks!

FP
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 10:58:15 PM by foolishpoolish »

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2010, 12:10:16 AM »
I absolutely agree Toby.  As I stated in our PM's, I've notice the same about caputo and other lower protein flours.  I'm very new to this less kneading method so I have just kneaded less than normal, which I call minimal kneading, but I do understand the term can be rather subjective.   I have notice just as you described the texture, so for lower protein flours, I will knead a bit more or do some stretch and folds at the beginning of proofing if the dough feels a bit slack.  Either that or lower your hydration ratio a bit.  Do post up some pics Toby as you are (IMO) one of the most talented pie makers on the forum.  I absolutely love looking at pictures of your pies. 

BTW, those nice looking pies I made a few posts up, I made with a combination of your guidelines you posted and minimal (or less) kneading.  You'll find this regimen familiar.  ;D

The above pies were made using this method.

-dissolve salt, starter (yeast) in water
-stir in 75-80% of flour and mix until even.  This was done with a fork.  Dough mixture was mixed in the bowl only.
-Rest 20min
-slowly mix in remaining flour. Again done in bowl and only to an even mix and not more.  This was completed in 1 min?   
-Rest 20min
-kneaded (minimally) for 1-2min ending with 3 cycles or so of stretch and fold.  This is done until a "proper" feel to the dough is achieved.
-Bulk rise 3 hours
-Stretch and fold a few more times and balled
-proofed for 4-5 hours
-Bake
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 12:34:15 AM by Tranman »

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #76 on: June 20, 2010, 12:22:51 AM »
Here ya go (bear in mind it was quick test dough - so no big cat patterns ;) ) but I think this gives some idea of oven spring and crumb.

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #77 on: June 20, 2010, 04:32:26 AM »
Yes, the 'minimal' part of minimal kneading is definitely relative.  The most important thing to remember is that cold fermentation biochemically kneads.  For me, cold ferments seem to be equivalent to about 5 minutes of kneading, so if I normally knead a dough for 10 minutes in a same day scenario, if I cold ferment it, I'll knead it for 5.

With my very high and reactive gluten bromated All Trumps, though, that's about a 5 minute knead total, so, with a cold ferment, I knead just until mixed (<2 minutes)

I tip my hat to Chau and Scott for opening my eyes to another technique.

And just to make sure everyone gets proper credit, I'll tip my hat to Matthew and Andre, who, when discussing Bianco's extreme extensibility (as shown in the Kimmel video) informed me that lower hydration doughs can be that extensible.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10316.20.html

It was that discussion that led me to try less kneading to obtain greater extensibility. I also tip my hat to Peter, who confirmed cold fermentation's biochemical kneading aspect, as well as turned me on to Evelyn Slomon's very appropriate description of 'cottage cheese' for pre cold fermentation high gluten flour dough. When I talk about cottage cheese, that's straight from her (via Peter).


Oh, and who's this 'Chau' person?  ;D Is one of our members giving out their real name privately but not publicly?! Are we public folk not worthy of that level of familiarity? :P

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #78 on: June 20, 2010, 10:33:19 AM »
Oh, and who's this 'Chau' person?   Is one of our members giving out their real name privately but not publicly?! Are we public folk not worthy of that level of familiarity?

Scott you constantly have me laughing.  Pizzamaking and this forum is a great form of therapy for me (not that I need any)!  :-D
Seriously Scott, I've been hestitant to reveal my true identity b/c I've been trying to reinvent myself like the celebrity rappers.  I want to change my forum name to Jackie Tran and it's in the works so PLZ no one steal that!  :P

Toby, I should stop using the terms "minimal" and "over-kneading" as both are very relative and subjective.  I should just say that I knead a lot less than I use to.   I promised myself I would take at least a 3 day break from making pizza but now you've got me mixing dough up on Father's Day. So 

HAPPY FATHER'S DAY all!

So I made 2 doughballs, 1 with Caputo (red bag) Chef's flour and the other with bromated HG flour using a version of your guidelines and less kneading. I timed everything and took  pics to document the process.
 
1. measure room temp water, add starter/ADY, salt and stir to dissolve.
2. add ~50% of flour to above mixture and stir with a fork for 30 secs to form an even batter.
3. add 1/2 of remaining flour (so thats 75% of total flour) and stir to mix evenly another 30s.
4. Rest for 10-20min.  I rested about 15min.
5. slowly add/knead in remaining 25% of flour.  I dumped the dough onto my working surface and dumped the remaining flour next to it.  I dip the dough into the flour and start to knead it in.  As soon as the dough gets wet/moist/sticky again, I redunk.  This is repeated until all the flour is used up or until I achieve a certain dough condition.  This process took about 3 mins to do.  I form it into a rough ball.  At this point it's dimpled looking.  Pics to follow.
6. Rest another 10-20min.
7. Do about 4 stretch and folds and then ball it.
8. Bulk rise for ___ and then room ferment for ____.  I left out the times b/c it' secret and proprietary.   JK, these times depend on the amount of yeast you are using. 
9. I also plan on reballing after the bulk rise.

Toby let me know if you classify that as minimal kneading, less kneading, or in line with what you do.


« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:48:18 AM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #79 on: June 20, 2010, 10:36:22 AM »
First pic is the caputo ball (pic 1) after step #5.  Pic #2 is the bromated HG flour ball after step #5.  Both have a different hydration ratio, but the look and feel is almost identical. 

 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:48:39 AM by Tranman »

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