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Author Topic: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00  (Read 28589 times)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2010, 10:40:07 AM »
Next pics are of the caputo ball alone. 
First pic is the ball after it was turned out from the bowl after the 2nd rest period (step #6)
2nd pic shows the first step of stretch and fold.  That's the first fold
3rd pic shows the 2nd fold and so on.
I do 1 big stretch, 2 folds, and two more folds.  Pinch the ends shut.   Fold and ball twice with the ball in my hands.  Pinch the creases shut. That's it for step #7.

If the dough feels a little wet at this point, I'll usually add just a pinch of bench flour to the outside or you can knead in a bit more flour.  This is done by feel.  Folks you need to experiment with different hydration levels and take notes or pay attention to the finishing moisture of the crumb and then adjust. Of course this is just one step/variable in the entire process.  There's the resting phase (depending on the amount of yeast you use) & the baking process (time and temp dependent).  Start changing variables in any of these stages and you get a different pie.  It's tough but you have to find the happy medium/zone for all the stages and then bring them all together.  After a few hundred pies, I'm sure everything will start to make sense.  With a lot of practice, help from the forum, and a bit of luck/magic anyone can make good pizza. lol
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 10:54:20 AM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2010, 10:42:59 AM »
Here's what my balls look like after the above step and 2 fold and ball. :-D  This goes into an oiled bowl and will ferment for 2 hours.  I'll likely reball again and bulk for another 2hours and then bake. 

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #82 on: June 20, 2010, 10:51:39 AM »
Tranman, I'm curious, do you ever have issues with forming irregular/squarish shaped pies or are they always pretty circular? It's just a theory, but I think stretch and folds might align the gluten in a somewhat squarish manner. I had major shape problems with the square tupperware containers I was using, but since I switched to round proofing pans, the shapes of my skins have improved.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #83 on: June 20, 2010, 11:01:32 AM »
Tranman, I'm curious, do you ever have issues with forming irregular/squarish shaped pies or are they always pretty circular? It's just a theory, but I think stretch and folds might align the gluten in a somewhat squarish manner. I had major shape problems with the square tupperware containers I was using, but since I switched to round proofing pans, the shapes of my skins have improved.

Scott, I limit my stretch and fold to 4x or as I would call it 1 cycle.  When I did more I had stretching issues.  I should say that stretch and fold is NOT needed for pizza.  It's a bread making technique that I used to creat BIG air bubbles.  I may totally be wrong about it's purpose but that's what I use it for.  But it really only works or has this effect if done later in the game after the dough and gluten has set up a bit.  Do it too late in the game and it's disasterous.  You won't be able to open up the dough even at room temps without tearing.

When opening the dough I don't notice any issues with getting irregular shape pies BUT it may be because I've done it this way for awhile now.  My dough usually always open up circular but then again it may just be my ability to do so.  So if there is any issue I think it's taken care of as I'm opening the dough. 

I can definitely see a square container causing an issue as you've mention before much of the gluten forms or is set during the cold fermentation.

Also b/c I ball the dough a few times after the stretch and folds, I believe that helps to reachieve the roundness of the gluten structures?  I'm totally talking out the rear end at this point.  :-D  The bulk rise and ferment period also helps realign the gluten too I believe.

Chau
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 11:03:24 AM by Tranman »

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #84 on: June 20, 2010, 11:03:22 AM »
You might find this discussion of 'aligning gluten' useful (some of the applications and equally some of the misconceptions):

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18266/aligning-gluten-strands

FP

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #85 on: June 20, 2010, 11:06:43 AM »
You might find this discussion of 'aligning gluten' useful (some of the applications and equally some of the misconceptions):

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18266/aligning-gluten-strands

FP

Thanks FP, I'll check it out.  I honestly think that if I left the stretch and folds out and just did several cycles of fold and ball that it would have the same effect.  I don't think where I added stretch and fold is really either detrimental or beneficial.  Like I said, it's just something I've done way back when and habits can be hard to break.

Chau

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #86 on: June 20, 2010, 11:18:46 AM »
Thanks FP, I'll check it out.  I honestly think that if I left the stretch and folds out and just did several cycles of fold and ball that it would have the same effect.  I don't think where I added stretch and fold is really either detrimental or beneficial.  Like I said, it's just something I've done way back when and habits can be hard to break.

Chau
Yeah I understand. I used to go S&F crazy during bulk ferment until the dough wouldn't take any more (bad habit I picked up from breadmaking). I've backed off recently although I will still use a 'bowl fold' once in a while (similar to running dough through a fork mixer one revolution).
FWIW I never reball. I've got no problems with dough balls getting a little flat during proofing - just makes the final shaping/stretching that much easier!
FP
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 11:21:51 AM by foolishpoolish »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #87 on: June 20, 2010, 11:55:31 AM »
Toby do you (re)ball between bilk rise and proofing?  I may skip that today since I balled it prior to bulk rising. I'm indecisive at this point.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #88 on: June 20, 2010, 11:59:49 AM »
Toby do you (re)ball between bilk rise and proofing?  I may skip that today since I balled it prior to bulk rising. I'm indecisive at this point.
I'm confused - how did you ball your dough prior to bulk fermentation? Or am I misunderstanding the term 'balled'? (I take it to mean shaping individual dough balls).

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #89 on: June 20, 2010, 12:08:53 PM »
Toby b/c I'm still experimenting, each batch of dough typically makes one doughball around 200-250gm. I usually make 2 different batches each time I bake testing various recipes, ingredients, and methods.

When I finish kneading, there's no need to divide the single doughball so I go ahead and ball it then. I fold it in my palms turning it into itself and pinching the crease. I do this 2-3 times and it is balled. This is done before bulk rising. I know other members typically knead, bulk, divide, ball, then proof or cold ferment.  I knead, ball, and bulk/proof with sometimes reballing between bulk and proof.  Just wondering if I should leave out balling b/t bulk and proofing.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 05:30:31 PM by Tranman »

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foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #90 on: June 20, 2010, 12:13:50 PM »
Toby b/c I'm still experimenting, each batch of dough typically makes one doughball around 200-250gm. I usually make 2 different batches each time I bake testing various recipes, ingredients, and methods.

When I finish kneading, there's on need to divide the single doughball so I go ahead and ball it then. I fold it in my palms turning it into itself and pinching the crease. I do this 2-3 times and it is balled. This is done before bulk rising. I know other members typically knead, bulk, divide, ball, then proof or cold ferment.  I knead, ball, and bulk/proof with sometimes reballing between bulk and proof.  Just wondering if I should leave out balling b/t bulk and proofing.

Aaaaah I see! thank you for explaining.  1 ball batch - got it :) Hmmm don't know - I guess there's no real distinction between a bulk ferment and a proof in this particular case - it's all just a rise :)  Reball only if you think you absolutely need to. If it's only a short overall rise time (<5 hours) then I wouldn't bother but if you're shooting for a long fermentation then reballing may be called for.
 

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #91 on: June 20, 2010, 05:40:09 PM »
Good tip FP.  I ended up skipping the 2nd balling.   The dough ended up overfermenting a bit and the bottoms burned too quickly.  I suspect it was due to overfermentation as the dough was a bit "poofy", a little too easy to handle, and the premature burning.   

I also suspect this b/c it was baked in the MBE, which i just had a successful bake the other night and I hadn't change the set up.   But here are the pics anyway. 

The first pics are of the HG flour NY.  The dough opened up easily and handled quite nicely.  A little poofy, so I'm beginning to learn the limits of my new technique and dough.  The crust rise in the MBE was amazing.  This was around a 240gm ball stretched to a 12" pie.   The hearth temp was 750-780F and the bottom was toast in under a minute.  The top was still white so I had to rim it against the broiler in the home oven to finish.  Even though the bottom burnt, I went ahead and use the broiler to see what the finished pie may have looked like if it was baked entirely in the MBE. 

The crust had a nice rise and look to it.  The texture was good as well, so the dough technique is sound.  I just have to cut back on my yeast amount and proofing/fermenting times. 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 05:44:49 PM by Tranman »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #92 on: June 20, 2010, 05:44:11 PM »
Here's the caputo pie.   I lowered the hearth to 650ish and the bottom charred much sooner than expected.  Again likely due to over proofing for the amount of starter used. 

Also had to broiler in the home oven to finish this one.  I could eat more of this pie though since I was on the look out for burning.

foolishpoolish

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #93 on: June 20, 2010, 05:49:15 PM »
Wow love those results.  :chef: Looks like the HG had some serious oven spring there!  Nice work.


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #94 on: June 20, 2010, 06:31:18 PM »
Thanks Toby and thanks for your help and guidance. As you may not know but you've played a big part in what I do now. 

I also read through that link.  Some interesting theories going on there and I'm not sure if it made gluten formation/matrix any easier to understand or just more confusing.   :-D  I am aligning myself with the camp that believes that "our ability to influence the orientation of gluten strands through physical manipulation of the dough is limited."

Also depends on where in the process we decide to manipulate gluten.  With any length of rest, it seems like the matrix reorganizes itself.  An example of this is when I do a stretch and fold and purposefully trap airbubbles in the dough.  I can see and feel the bubbles there.  But with any amount of rest period, the big bubbles seem to be absorbed into the dough.  I believe this happens b/c as the dough rest it seems to  get more wet.

Now if after the rest period, I incorporate some stretch and folds, the big bubbles tend to remain and not get absorbed.  Weird huh?  Back some time i did an experiment involving stretch and folds. 

2 balls from 1 batch of dough cold fermented for 2 days.  One ball was taken out the fridge and stretched and folded after day 1 and after an hour's time of cooling on the counter.  This same ball was stretched and folded on day 2 prior to a warm proofing.  Both had nice oven spring, but the ball with stretch and folds had nice BIG round airbubbles that was tented up.  While the other had airbubbles that were collapse and looked "toothy".

So the stretch and folds do seem to stregthen the gluten matrix by reorganizing or disorganizing the strands.  I don't know.   I dont know the mechanics, physics, etc of how these things work but I do have an idea of their effects on the outcome of the product. 

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Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #95 on: June 21, 2010, 12:02:18 AM »
Chau, stretch and folds are just the equivalent of additional kneading, and because it's kneading done so late in the process where the flour has had a chance to hydrate extensively, it's superkneading.  The same with a re-ball, but to a slightly lesser extent. If you're getting toothiness/weak gluten on the back end, rather than incorporating quasi-kneading techniques mid process, just add a little more kneading at the get go.

And, don't forget, toothiness is a classic overfermenting symptom. Peter talked about the impact of protease activity the other day.  For longer/warmer ferments, the gluten framework is literally being digested and that's where you get the uneven bubbly/knobby/toothy effect. Now, from the research that I've done, malt flour has more protease than wheat flour, so protease impact should be greater on HG doughs than it is on Caputo doughs, but... if you cold ferment Caputo long enough, it will start to self-digest.

Lastly, even with proper fermentation, a malted HG flour based dough can't handle high temps without burning.  You're always going to want to dial the heat back as compared to the Caputo.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #96 on: June 21, 2010, 12:41:18 PM »
Good to know Scott.  I'm considering doing a test batch with and without the stretch and folds and paying attention to the differences in the way the dough opens and if they indeed do influence the formation of big bubbles to the extent that I think they do.  For the batch that doesn't get stretch and folds I'll just do a little additional kneading and/or balling on the front end. 

I have done this experiment once before that was long ago when I knew a lot less about dough and pizza making. 

And, don't forget, toothiness is a classic overfermenting symptom. Peter talked about the impact of protease activity the other day.  For longer/warmer ferments, the gluten framework is literally being digested and that's where you get the uneven bubbly/knobby/toothy effect. Now, from the research that I've done, malt flour has more protease than wheat flour, so protease impact should be greater on HG doughs than it is on Caputo doughs, but... if you cold ferment Caputo long enough, it will start to self-digest.

Hmmm interesting but something still doesn't make sense.  2 of my all time favorite pies that had a very light and airy structure had some toothiness to it.  The first was my perfect pie I've posted a lot about.  You can't see toothiness in that one because it had some additional stretch and folds.  However, his twin (without the additional stretch and folds) from the same batch which I can't seem to find the pictures to now definitely had a lot of toothiness.  That particular batch was overfermented BUT didn't prematurely burn.  Why?  That batch had 10% starter and 1/2 tsp ADY per 2 balls or 1/4 tsp per 300gm ball.  They were cold fermented for 2 days and rush proofed at high temps.   One ball became my all time perfect pie while the other wasn't bad either had a very toothy crumb structure.  Both were baked at a hearth temp of ~600F and displayed NO signs of burning (for being overfermented).

OK now my 2nd best tasting crust (light and airy) and also happens to displays the toothy crumb.  It's seen in the last few pics in post #52 (last 2 of 3 pics) in this thread.  That particularly pie had 50% starter and was rush proof for 2 hours at 100F+. 

So yes Scott, both of my favorite pies were warm proofed and likely overfermented but neither burned like my other recent overfermented pies (MBE thread and reply # 91 in this thread).  So apparently the toothiness may or may not happen before the dough gets to the point of being too sugary and prematurely burning?   If it is indeed a classic sign of overfermented dough, then why didn't my recently overfermented and prematurely burned pies display any toothiness (pics in reply #91)?

Hope that wasn't too confusing.  Thanks for any help.  BTW, I'm only trying to figure this out so that I can try to recreate my favorite pies.   Don't get me wrong here, I can (now) make soft and moist crumbs all day long.  BUT when I absolutely get it right (and it's by accidental twice now), the crust/crumb is much better.  There's just a certain texture about it.  I know what it looks like but it's hard to describe. 

Anyone know what I'm talking about here? ???

Chau
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:08:25 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #97 on: June 21, 2010, 12:54:24 PM »
Lastly, even with proper fermentation, a malted HG flour based dough can't handle high temps without burning.  You're always going to want to dial the heat back as compared to the Caputo.

I'm really just experimenting and trying to possibly achieve or recreated what J. Varasano has done.  Why???  Well just to see if I can do it and to see if I can get my pizza to THAT level whatever that is.  But I think Jeff is baking with BF and not HG flour which is slightly different.  So I will keep that in mind when using malted HG flour.  Thanks again for all yor expert advice Scott.   

Offline scott123

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #98 on: June 21, 2010, 06:45:12 PM »
Chau, I have tremendous respect for Jeff Varasano and for all his contributions, and, should I ever make it down to Atlanta, I would love to visit his place.  If he ever wrote a book, I would be the first to buy it. That being said, the wealth of knowledge/expertise that Jeff possesses now is not the same knowledgebase he was working with five years ago when he published his pizza recipe.  At the time, he was obviously incredibly motivated, excited and energized and that zeal really shines through in the photos and the text, but, the information presented has both inconsistencies and gaps and is not the end all be all for neo-Neapolitan pizza making. It's a wonderful jumping off point for the beginner, but, for someone serious, I think there are better sources for mastering neo-Neapolitan and Neapolitan pizzamaking at home, including this site here.  If you've eaten neo-Neapolitan like Patsy's or Grimaldi's, fallen in love with it and it's your bliss, then I would take a look at Terry Deane's (tdeane) posts.  He is in a commercial environment working with a commercial oven, but you can glean a lot of information for baking at home by reading his posts. I'm sure there are other members here who are mastering/have master neo-Neapolitan pizza, but, from what I've seen, Terry seems to be kicking some serious butt in terms of open crumb structure, crunch and overall aesthetics. And, of course, on the Neapolitan side, as you well know, this site abounds with experts, both experts on the commercial side AND the home oven side.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Finally caught a break with Caputo 00
« Reply #99 on: June 21, 2010, 10:42:54 PM »
I'll check out Tdeane's stuff again.  I've looked at it briefly and thought he was doing NY style instead of Neo-Neapolitan.

I wonder what inconsistencies and gaps you are referring to in the info Jeff has presented.  No doubt his knowledge of pizza making and business has expanded but I seriously doubt he's making pizza much differently than he did.  I think he found his winning formula and method and has likely stuck to it making small changes to adapt to the commercial side of things. 

There may be masters of neo-neapolitan or folks that are really great at it on the site,but it seems not many willing to share info or even pics for that matter.  I'll have to look and dig again, but in the short time I've been here, the info on Neo-Neapolitan seems limited.  
« Last Edit: June 22, 2010, 01:32:20 AM by Jackie Tran »

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