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Author Topic: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)  (Read 528 times)

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Offline asmdsr

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What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« on: July 18, 2018, 02:22:04 PM »
Hello all,

I ate this pizza last night from Ardiana in San Francisco (same owner as Gialina and Ragazza).  It's a thin crust.  The cornice is crispy on the outside, so much so that you can't fold it.  Yet on the inside it is still somewhat moist and quite airy.  The crispiness is quite distinctly shell-like, almost like a thin crab shell if that makes sense, encasing softer texture inside.  It also has a distinct flavor, I don't know if that are any Australians here, but the flavor reminds me of Arnott's Cruskits crispbread that I grew up with.  The bottom of the pizza, under the sauce, is very thin and varies from crispy near the edge to softer in the middle.

Anyways, I have some questions:

1) How to name/describe this style of crust?  As you can see above I am struggling to describe it.  Is it a specific style?

2) What kind of dough recipes and flour choices lead to this crust?

3) What kind of oven temperature range and cooking times are suitable for this crust?

Regards
Tim

Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2018, 02:45:16 PM »
From the photos and your description this looks quite a bit like the pizzas from Mozza in Los Angeles, California.  Mozza's edge is even puffier than this, and very crispy at the edges and underneath.  You could give this recipe a try:

http://doughgenerator.allsimbaseball9.com/recipe.php?recipe_id=25


Offline asmdsr

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2018, 03:08:33 PM »
Thanks, I will try that!

The distinct ingredients seem to be rye flour, wheat germ and barley malt.  Does anybody know what impact those ingredients have?

And while the recipe is adapted to a home oven, Mozza appears to use a wood-fired oven, so I presume they are cooking at high temp?

Offline jsaras

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2018, 03:40:28 PM »
Thanks, I will try that!

The distinct ingredients seem to be rye flour, wheat germ and barley malt.  Does anybody know what impact those ingredients have?

And while the recipe is adapted to a home oven, Mozza appears to use a wood-fired oven, so I presume they are cooking at high temp?

Mozzaís wood-fires ovens are actually run at low temps; 550F or less.  Itís strange, but it works for them.

As far as the dough mix-ins, I recall
Nancy Silverton saying that the wheat germ was to compensate for the short fermentation time (and maybe the
rye as well).  The restaurant dough does have barley malt, but you could substitute LDM. 
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Offline Essen1

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2018, 04:01:53 PM »
Hello all,

I ate this pizza last night from Ardiana in San Francisco (same owner as Gialina and Ragazza).  It's a thin crust.  The cornice is crispy on the outside, so much so that you can't fold it.  Yet on the inside it is still somewhat moist and quite airy.  The crispiness is quite distinctly shell-like, almost like a thin crab shell if that makes sense, encasing softer texture inside.  It also has a distinct flavor, I don't know if that are any Australians here, but the flavor reminds me of Arnott's Cruskits crispbread that I grew up with.  The bottom of the pizza, under the sauce, is very thin and varies from crispy near the edge to softer in the middle.

Anyways, I have some questions:

1) How to name/describe this style of crust?  As you can see above I am struggling to describe it.  Is it a specific style?

2) What kind of dough recipes and flour choices lead to this crust?

3) What kind of oven temperature range and cooking times are suitable for this crust?

Regards
Tim

Tim,

Ardiana's is a high-hydration dough but I don't think they go as high as Mozza at 83%.

My guess is their crust hovers around 65-67% water and use an organic, higher protein flour. Sharon Ardiana's other restaurant, Gialina's, uses a low yeast to flour ratio, maybe 0.2% yeast, and at least 24 hours of fermentation. I doubt that she developed a complete new dough for Ardiana. At Ardiana they drizzle some olive oil on the crust post-bake which might give it a bit of a different texture.

The tomatoes used are Bianco DiNapoli.

Hope that helps.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline tinroofrusted

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2018, 05:49:56 PM »
A bit lower hydration is probably a good idea, at least initially. Also fermenting overnight in the refrigerator would probably improve the flavor and give a bit more spring to the crust. You could lower the yeast by about a third if you will ferment it overnight. 

Offline parallei

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2018, 06:04:21 PM »
Mozzaís wood-fires ovens are actually run at low temps; 550F or less.  Itís strange, but it works for them.

........... The restaurant dough does have barley malt, but you could substitute LDM.

Do they (Mozza) use a diastatic malt malt powder (LDM), i.e. malted barely powder?  For some reason I thought it was a non-diastatic malt syrup which would be mostly for flavor and some color.   
« Last Edit: July 18, 2018, 06:23:29 PM by parallei »

Offline jsaras

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 07:01:02 PM »
Do they (Mozza) use a diastatic malt malt powder (LDM), i.e. malted barely powder?  For some reason I thought it was a non-diastatic malt syrup which would be mostly for flavor and some color.   

Pretty sure itís the syrup
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Offline wotavidone

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 07:17:54 PM »
Hello all,
 It also has a distinct flavor, I don't know if that are any Australians here, but the flavor reminds me of Arnott's Cruskits crispbread that I grew up with.  The bottom of the pizza, under the sauce, is very thin and varies from crispy near the edge to softer in the middle.

Anyways, I have some questions:

1) How to name/describe this style of crust?  As you can see above I am struggling to describe it.  Is it a specific style?

2) What kind of dough recipes and flour choices lead to this crust?

3) What kind of oven temperature range and cooking times are suitable for this crust?

Regards
Tim
Cruskits have wheat, rye and rice flours and 5% clarified butter in them, if that info helps.
I generally find high temps and quick cook (less than 2 minutes) = crisp cornice grading to soft in the centre of the pizza a la Naples margherita.
Medium temps/medium cook say 4 minutes=crisp all the way across the pizza not just the cornice.
Low temp/long cook (say 6-8 minutes) = ugh!!
I reckon if I was making cruskits, I'd be mixing the batter and cooking it very hot and quick.
So maybe try that. i.e. add some non-wheat flours and about 5% fats to your dough, then cook it fairly fast and hot.



Offline parallei

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2018, 08:47:02 PM »
Pretty sure itís the syrup

I was thinking the same thing.  The LDM wouldn't do the same thing.

Thanks so much for the posts/photos about your recent trip to Italy.  They were great fun.

Paul

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Offline jsaras

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2018, 10:44:01 PM »
I was thinking the same thing.  The LDM wouldn't do the same thing.

Thanks so much for the posts/photos about your recent trip to Italy.  They were great fun.

Paul

There will be more photos to come.  I have 1600+ frames to edit andIím in the process of moving to a new home.
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Offline asmdsr

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 07:32:20 PM »
Thanks everybody for the info and tips, I shall do some experiments and report back :chef:

Offline asmdsr

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Re: What is this crispy crust (Ardiana in San Francisco)
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2018, 02:20:27 AM »
Cruskits have wheat, rye and rice flours and 5% clarified butter in them, if that info helps.
I generally find high temps and quick cook (less than 2 minutes) = crisp cornice grading to soft in the centre of the pizza a la Naples margherita.
Medium temps/medium cook say 4 minutes=crisp all the way across the pizza not just the cornice.
Low temp/long cook (say 6-8 minutes) = ugh!!
I reckon if I was making cruskits, I'd be mixing the batter and cooking it very hot and quick.
So maybe try that. i.e. add some non-wheat flours and about 5% fats to your dough, then cook it fairly fast and hot.

So I gave it a shot.  I went for my normal NP style, with a twist on the flour choices.  I used bread flour, 1.5% dark rye, 4% rice flour.  Along with 68% hydration, 2.5% salt, 20% sourdough starter, 3 day cold proof.  Cooked in a Roccbox at about 750F.  The pizza was very good, and did seem to brown quite nicely and did have a fairly crispy cornice compared to my prior efforts, but not quite the same texture as the Ardiana example.  Not sure whether the rye or rice had the bigger impact.  Will conduct further experiments.

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