fairmont bagels, Montreal

[Pete-zza]

I can't find non-diastatic malt powder locally and hate doing it mail order as shipping more than doubles the cost. I have found malt syrup at the local Whole Foods. Would there be any noticeable difference if the syrup was used instead of the powder? Does anyone have any ideas of what type of local store might carry non-diastatic powder?

DannyG,

Matt is right but see Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12295.msg116672.html#msg116672. You may have to adjust the amount of syrup since it does not weigh the same as the dry form by volume.

Out of curiosity, where did you find an online source?

Peter

[DannyG]

The only place I found was King Arthur. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/non-diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz
It's only $5.50 for a pound but costs over $6 to ship. If I really get into bagels maybe I'll order. How would I figure out the conversion?

[Pete-zza]

The only place I found was King Arthur. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/non-diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz
It's only $5.50 for a pound but costs over $6 to ship. If I really get into bagels maybe I'll order. How would I figure out the conversion?

DannyG,

I took a stab at converting widespreadpizza's recipe to two different forms, one calling for dry non-diastatic barley malt and the other for non-diastatic barley malt syrup. I showed the two dough formulations earlier in this thread at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11832.msg113724.html#msg113724. In doing the conversions, I used 2.5% for both forms of malt. For the barley malt syrup, my conversion was based on the Eden Foods organic barley malt syrup such as shown at http://www.edenfoods.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=26_50&products_id=104050&ref_src=google&ref_id=condiments&gclid=COCsq4OemaUCFQpZ2godOE0ZKQ.

Since I did not have any conversion numbers for converting one form into the other, and could not find them at the nutritiondata.com website, I called Eden this morning and spoke to a customer service rep. She did not have any conversion factors either, but I was able to have her tell me what percent water is in their product. She said that the Eden organic barley malt syrup is 79-80% solids. By my reckoning, that should mean that the water content should be 20-21%. On that basis, if a recipe calls for the dry barley malt and you want to substitute the barley malt syrup on a weight basis, technically you should reduce the amount of formula water by 20-21% of the weight of the barley malt syrup. In the dough formulations I posted in Reply 10, that would be 3.68-4 grams. That is so small relative to the amounts of everything else, including eggs with questionable water content, that I wouldn't worry about adjusting the formula water (the difference is only about 0.3%).

In the course of my conversation with the Eden customer rep, she did tell me that the conversion between their barley malt syrup and table sugar is 1 1/3 cups of their barley malt syrup for one cup of table sugar. Also, the recipe water should be reduced by 1/2 cup. That conversion doesn't directly apply here but I thought it might be a handy piece of information for future reference in other applications.

Peter

[DannyG]

Thanks Peter, I'm going to try the recipe this weekend. I'll post the results.

[bicster]

Finally got around to making the dough.  Boy is it stiff!  Will post pics tomorrow, in the mean time:

[DannyG]

So here is my first attempt. I have never had Montreal bagels so I don't know how they are suppose to taste. These were very light with a nice texture. I thought these were pretty good for my first attempt although I do like a bagel with more chew.

I used Pete-zza proportions posted earlier in this thread. I used regular KA bread flour. The 12.7% in the bag with a blue label. I'm not sure what KA "Special" bread flour is and I couldn't find anything like it on their website. My oven is a GE Electric and I cooked at 450 degrees directly on a Fibrement stone. The stone temperature was 475 degrees. I also use Eaden's barley malt  syrup instead of powder.

[Pete-zza]

I used Pete-zza proportions posted earlier in this thread. I used regular KA bread flour. The 12.7% in the bag with a blue label. I'm not sure what KA "Special" bread flour is and I couldn't find anything like it on their website.

DannyG,

"Special" is the name that King Arthur uses for its bread flour (with 12.7% protein) sold to professional bakers. You can see the specs at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/professional/specifications-conventional-bakery-flour.html. Your King Arthur bread flour is the same flour.

Peter

[widespreadpizza]

Danny,  nice job there!  thanks for testing that out.  I guess it works.  Maybe you need to use high gluten or some vital wheat gluten to get some mpre chew if thats the way you like them.  I like they they are light and not chewy myself.  Either way they look very good to me.  -marc

[DannyG]

King Arthur has a chewy bagel recipe I might try. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/chewy-bagels-recipe  It requires a starter and for some reason it requires steaming the bagels instead of boiling. Maybe that is what gives it the chew.

...I just did a quick search and came across this... http://www.chow.com/food-news/54466/how-to-make-the-ultimate-bagel/
It includes a nice procedure page and a recipe. It's and interesting overview and has a quote appropriate to this forum. “A bagel should be like a pizza crust at best: It should be chew that gives way to tender bread dough.”

The author says that steaming is a newer and faster way but boiling is better. I may try this instead of the KA one.

[norma427]

Marc,

Thanks so much for starting this thread about the Fairmont bagels.  The bagels are so light and airy.  I mixed my dough yesterday morning and although I didn’t use IDY in my bagels, they were delicious.  I never tasted bagels like these before.. I used the milk kefir added to leaven my bagels and used different flour.  I didn’t make the whole batch.  I left the dough ferment for about 24 hrs. at room temperature. 

I only had one problem while making the bagels.  While I was trying to roll them out I also had put the malt powder and honey on the stove to boil.  I believe you can guess what happened.  My mixture boiled over the top and made a mess on my stove.  I would have thought the boiling of the raw bagel would then affect the rise and kill the yeast, but I guess that didn’t happen. In my opinion the bagels tasted better than the Tartine Bread I made last week.  This recipe is a keeper for me.  I also had one bagel with Philadelphia Cream Cheese.

Thanks Peter for posting the formula for me to go by. I needed to make some adjustments because I was using the milk kefir.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Those do look good. Are you planning to move to Montreal to go into the milk kefir bagel business in competition with Fairmont or are you moving to California to work for and teach Chad Robertson how to make milk kefir doughs, including milk kefir bagel doughs  ?

Can you tell us what changes you made to the recipe you used?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Those do look good. Are you planning to move to Montreal to go into the milk kefir bagel business in competition with Fairmont or are you moving to California to work for and teach Chad Robertson how to make milk kefir doughs, including milk kefir bagel doughs  ?

Can you tell us what changes you made to the recipe you used?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the Fairmont bagels look good. Since I am using the milk kefir in experiments for pizza dough and the Tartine Bread last week, I also wanted to see how the milk keifr would work out when trying to make bagels.  When I mixed the dough yesterday, I thought I could make the bagels last evening, but the dough wasn’t ready.  It had only bubbled some. 

The changes I made to your formula you set-forth, was I divided it into 1/4, I still used 2 eggs, used KAAP with durum flour, added 39 grams milk kefir right out of the refrigerator.  I wanted to see if the milk kefir that was refrigerated for a couple of days would still leaven the dough.    I started out with 103 grams of KAAP flour and 53.76 grams of durum flour.  I saw that dough was going to be way too sticky, because I added all that milk kefir.  I then kept adding durum flour (I think in total the added flour was 100 grams or a little more), until I thought the dough felt okay.  It was still sticky.  At least I got a bakers dozen out of this formula.  Since it has worked and I really like these bagels, I will try making more, the next time.

I know I won’t be moving to Montreal to be in competition, with Fairmont bagels.  I am also sure Chad Robertson could teach me many things, but at least I might understand a little more about milk kefir than he does.  Scratch moving to California, too.  I am getting to old to move anywhere.    I also like learning about naturally leavened baked goods. I don’t know if anyone has made milk kefir bagels before, but Marc was the one that inspired me to try his recipe.

Norma

[widespreadpizza]

Norma,  very nice work as well.  I told ya you could do it first try,  and with an alternate form of leavening.  You have become very skilled and I appreciate how much effort you put into your experiments.  I am sure that the kefir added some flavor as well.  How would you rate them on your bagel scale?  -marc

[norma427]

Norma,  very nice work as well.  I told ya you could do it first try,  and with an alternate form of leavening.  You have become very skilled and I appreciate how much effort you put into your experiments.  I am sure that the kefir added some flavor as well.  How would you rate them on your bagel scale?  -marc

Marc,

Thanks for your kind words.    I wasn’t sure about making bagels, because I never tried them before.  The milk kefir did add a nice flavor to the bagels and also the long fermentation time also helped. When I looked at the dough this morning I thought I had overfermented the dough.  You can see the top bubbles on the one picture I posted and also all the other bubbles in the dough from the other pictures.  On my bagel scale I would rate these as the best bagels I have ever eaten.  I am going to try and toast one bagel or two later on this evening and I will post another picture of how they look toasted. 

I think I am going to New York in the next few weeks for a day.  I want to look at their bagels closer to see what they really look like.  I had many bagel sandwiches with eggs, bacon and cheese all over New York but non can compare with these.  I want to thank you again for posting about making the Fairmont bagels.

Do you have any idea how the yeast can withstand the hot boiling of these bagels.  I had mentioned in my other post about how the yeast can withstand the boiling.  If you look at the pictures I posted you can see how flat the bagels were before I put them into the boiling water.  Even after they were boiled, they didn’t rise very much.  When they were put into the oven, they did rise.  I find that interesting what happens with bagels. 

Norma

[norma427]

I put one of my Fairmont bagels on my scale and it weighs 36 grams.  I also toasted the bagel.  The pictures show before the toast and after the toast.

Pictures below

Norma

[Williamgag]

danny you just nailed it !

[norma427]

I made another dough today for the Fairmont bagels, but I am going to use the dough to make a pizza.  This time I used salt in the dough and also used a milk kefir poolish to leaven the dough.  This dough I made is very sticky and I wonder how the eggs will affect the pizza crust.  I did add more flour this time to the formula Peter set-forth, but the dough is still sticky.  I used KABF in combination with durum flour.  2 eggs were used to make about 1/4 the formula.  Malt powder was also used in this dough.

Pictures of milk kefir poolish and dough ball

Norma

[norma427]

Marc,

Thanks for starting this thread about Fairmont bagels.  First from your post I had a chance to taste really good bagels and now I also had a chance to try a good pizza.  First Fairmont bagel pizza.

Norma

[widespreadpizza]

Norma,  What have you done?!  that looks like it was great Nice job!  My buddy wanted me to try that,  maybe I will.  -marc