Author Topic: More flavour in dough  (Read 215648 times)

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Online norma427

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2950 on: January 18, 2017, 11:46:02 AM »
Thank you for your thoughts on all of that, Norma. Lots of food for thought. Interesting points all around. The oven over cooking the outer rim is something I am always on the lookout for. I get cranky when I lose that flavor. I've wondered how mine would do in a deck before.

FWIW, I, too, get the dark speckles and gray color to mine. Weaker dough sooner, stronger dough a little later.

Now that I've finally gotten my method done, I'm going to finally test the trick you've told us about blending old dough into a dough batch.  I'm now thinking of making a big enough sacrificial dough ball to test various aged pieces in otherwise identical batches. Probably 3 days apart with special attention/observation to visual characteristics such as the gray coloring and specks. 


Roy,

I think you would be surprised if you got to try different deck ovens for your doughs.  It can be very confusing what happens. 

Thanks for telling us that you get the dark speckles and gray color to yours too.  What do you mean about weaker dough sooner, stronger dough a little later?

Adding old dough into a new batch doesn't always give a lot of difference, but does help some. 

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2951 on: January 18, 2017, 11:53:33 AM »
I thought one of the funniest things happened at market last week.  Jared, the one maintenance man told me there was a big fuss at market about camera men being at market and them asking for “Amish water” in addition to being at market to take photos at the Old Flea Market.  The men were supposed to be from NYC.  The rumor was last week that the men already knew my pizza dough formulation, sauce recipe and what else I do at market to make the pizzas.  It was rumored that all they thought they needed to make my pizzas would the “Amish water” from market.  :-D  I didn't have time to investigate more last week, but was told that the men where thrown out of market after different things they did.

Fast forward to this week.  When I went to the restroom, the one lady that cleans the restroom told me about the same story, and so did her husband that also cleans at market.  The lady told me when I went into the restroom that there was a big fuss about me at market last week.  I never saw any big cameras at market last week and the lady told me that Tom the market manager made the men put their cameras in their vehicles after talking photos at the flea market and them causing a fuss.  I then asked a lady that has a stand near me if she saw any men at market last week with big cameras.  She said she did when she walked to another part of market. 

This morning I called Jim, the manager of the Flea and Antique market.  Usually the Flea and Antique market doesn't have many vendors in the winter because of it being cold, raining or snowing.  Jim told me he also heard about the same rumors but didn't know how true they were and said Tom the market manager didn't want to bother me last week.  Jim did say the men took photos at the Antique and Flea Market, but then left and went to the main market.

I then called Tom, and he said the men did want to get jugs of “Amish water” at market.  He did say they wanted the water to make pizza doughs.  Tom said the men were escorted out of market by security and told to go home after a lot of problems.  Security followed them around for awhile.  The men never got any “Amish water” as far as Tom knows.   Tom said the men were from Staten Island.

I talked to Dave yesterday that used to put things in the well water that is at market, when he stopped at my stand to talk.  Dave doesn't work there anymore, but he said there are high nitrate levels in the well market water.  He said he had to put a lot of chlorine in to stabilize it, and there was a lot of testing done to see that the water was safe.  Dave said he doesn't know how well the market water is treated now.  I never smelled any chlorine in the market well water, but a lady that raises alpacas (that brought her alpacas to a tractor show at market) said her alpacas would not drink the well market water because it had too high of levels of chlorine.  The lady said she could smell chlorine in the market water at the tractor show.

I find it amusing that some people still believe that what water is used to make pizza dough is part of a magic bullet to make pizzas good.   :-D >:D

Norma

Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2952 on: January 18, 2017, 11:57:24 AM »
Roy,
....What do you mean about weaker dough sooner, stronger dough a little later?
....
Norma
Norma,
What I *think* happens is that the stronger my gluten is, the longer it can feed the yeast (directly or indirectly?) and the longer it holds shape, the longer amount of time happens before if becomes semi-flat and starts to change color(s) and gets speckles. A similar effect appears when I under-proof my yeast, but that would happen different, I think, for something like Peter's experiments 10 years ago with the later added yeast. 

Adding old dough into a new batch doesn't always give a lot of difference, but does help some. 
Very interesting. Long give variances!   :D 

Thanks again for all your tidbits of information.

Roy

Online Pete-zza

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2953 on: January 18, 2017, 11:58:26 AM »
Peter, you gave me this link well over a year ago.
http://classofoods.com/page2_2.html

Way down that page is a paragraph starting with the words, "Lean or doughs with little or no sugar pose a slightly different problem for yeast". Is what November talking about in his second paragraph related to that one? I never could figure out where to go from there.

Roy
Roy,

No, I don't think that is what November had in mind. I believe that the paragraph you cited from the classofoods site relates to what is discussed in the section Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at the bottom of the page at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm. Playing around with doughs that have been cold fermented for extraordinarily long times, as you and I have both done, among others, is so out of the ordinary--both in the bread world and the pizza world--that I suspect that not much research has been done in this area to teach us what really goes on in the dough over such long fermentation periods. But, like a lot of other things, we don't need the explanations if we can replicate what we do on a consistent basis. Norma's example was an unusual one because her dough was subjected to mixed fermentation protocols and also involved freezing. But I sense that maybe her dough was equivalent age-wise to some of the doughs we made and, hence, may have had similar end results, with decent crust coloration and a note of sweetness.

Peter


Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2954 on: January 18, 2017, 12:07:47 PM »
Roy,

No, I don't think that is what November had in mind. I believe that the paragraph you cited from the classofoods site relates to what is discussed in the section Sugar Transformations (Rosada) at the bottom of the page at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm. Playing around with doughs that have been cold fermented for extraordinarily long times, as you and I have both done, among others, is so out of the ordinary--both in the bread world and the pizza world--that I suspect that not much research has been done in this area to teach us what really goes on in the dough over such long fermentation periods. But, like a lot of other things, we don't need the explanations if we can replicate what we do on a consistent basis. Norma's example was an unusual one because her dough was subjected to mixed fermentation protocols and also involved freezing. But I sense that maybe her dough was equivalent age-wise to some of the doughs we made and, hence, may have had similar end results, with decent crust coloration and a note of sweetness.

Peter
Thank you very much, Peter. I didn't know the link to section 1 was at the bottom of section II until I scrolled past the bibliography section just now. Section II was another link you gave me at the same time as the one I referred to earlier. I never remembered to look for section I.  :-[

Roy

Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2955 on: January 18, 2017, 12:11:51 PM »
Norma, so, people with NYC water came down to see you? That is too classic. Full circle.   :-D

Roy


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2956 on: January 18, 2017, 03:44:07 PM »
Norma,
What I *think* happens is that the stronger my gluten is, the longer it can feed the yeast (directly or indirectly?) and the longer it holds shape, the longer amount of time happens before if becomes semi-flat and starts to change color(s) and gets speckles. A similar effect appears when I under-proof my yeast, but that would happen different, I think, for something like Peter's experiments 10 years ago with the later added yeast. 
Very interesting. Long give variances!   :D 

Thanks again for all your tidbits of information.

Roy

Roy,

Thanks for explaining what you meant.  I have no idea if a dough is stronger right after mixing if it will hold its shape longer, before it becomes semi-flat and starts to change color to get those speckles.  I can't do a lot of experiments with something like that because of not having enough space to use dough boxes.   I do know of someone that has gotten good results, without using any sugar/LDM in the formula, and having pizza dough good with crusts with nice browning, when using about 7-10 days cold fermentation.  The only problem with that is that is the dough has to be handled carefully.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2957 on: January 18, 2017, 03:46:13 PM »
Norma, so, people with NYC water came down to see you? That is too classic. Full circle.   :-D

Roy

Roy,

I am not sure if any of those people visited my stand, but the whole story was amusing.  I did get NYC water when my oldest daughter lived in Queens, and tested that at market.

Norma

Offline rparker

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2958 on: January 18, 2017, 04:57:30 PM »
Roy,

Thanks for explaining what you meant.  I have no idea if a dough is stronger right after mixing if it will hold its shape longer, before it becomes semi-flat and starts to change color to get those speckles.  I can't do a lot of experiments with something like that because of not having enough space to use dough boxes.   I do know of someone that has gotten good results, without using any sugar/LDM in the formula, and having pizza dough good with crusts with nice browning, when using about 7-10 days cold fermentation.  The only problem with that is that is the dough has to be handled carefully.

Norma
Norma, Thanks for sharing that note about knowing someone in the 7-10 day range. That matches up with where I was until recently. I spent two months testing yeast and sugar amounts. 0% up to .50%. I don't know for sure what was happening, but it seemed like I am putting sugar in the mix just so that I could keep my yeast from eating gluten so quickly. .50% was too much browning. 0% meant weak, extensive dough stretches that I had to be careful of to avoid low spots after 6 or 7 days. .25% sugar bought me several quality days on the back end. I sacrificed a bit of crunch.

Of course, by too much browning, I mean that it got brown on the bottom before I was satisfied with the amount of crisp/crunch I got. If I did not care about getting good stretches over a week old and did not care about top rim coloring, I would still use 0% sugar exclusively.

And thanks for talking pizza crusts and dough with me.  8)

Roy

 

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2959 on: January 18, 2017, 05:50:03 PM »
Thanks Capt Bob!  Did your old dough ball have those dots of speckles?  That is a lot of time for a dough to spend in cold fermentation.  What amount of IDY did you use? I think that is when pizza crusts taste really good, when different things work together.  Also if the there is lots of fermentation bubbles in the skin. 

Great to hear it was more extensible than those made a week earlier.

Norma

Norma.....I'm not sure about the dots and speckles because this dough had some spelt in it so it was a bit speckled anyway. This batch had .06% IDY. I didn't see any gray color in it at all and to answer Roy's question, it really wasn't all that wet.
Bob

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2960 on: January 18, 2017, 07:21:15 PM »
Norma, Thanks for sharing that note about knowing someone in the 7-10 day range. That matches up with where I was until recently. I spent two months testing yeast and sugar amounts. 0% up to .50%. I don't know for sure what was happening, but it seemed like I am putting sugar in the mix just so that I could keep my yeast from eating gluten so quickly. .50% was too much browning. 0% meant weak, extensive dough stretches that I had to be careful of to avoid low spots after 6 or 7 days. .25% sugar bought me several quality days on the back end. I sacrificed a bit of crunch.

Of course, by too much browning, I mean that it got brown on the bottom before I was satisfied with the amount of crisp/crunch I got. If I did not care about getting good stretches over a week old and did not care about top rim coloring, I would still use 0% sugar exclusively.

And thanks for talking pizza crusts and dough with me.  8)

Roy

 

Roy,

Glad to hear your 7-10 day doughs is the ranges you were into until recently.  Interesting that 0.50% sugar gave you too much browning. 

I could talk about pizza and dough anytime, just like you.   :P

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2961 on: January 18, 2017, 07:24:07 PM »
Norma.....I'm not sure about the dots and speckles because this dough had some spelt in it so it was a bit speckled anyway. This batch had .06% IDY. I didn't see any gray color in it at all and to answer Roy's question, it really wasn't all that wet.

Capt Bob,

Your dough does look like it was well fermented.  I understand about not seeing spreckles since that dough had spelt in the dough. 

Great looking pizza btw!

Norma


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2962 on: January 19, 2017, 06:12:32 AM »
Got the new scale yesterday.  Think it is going to be a good scale for market.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2963 on: January 19, 2017, 08:06:38 AM »
Roy,

Glad to hear your 7-10 day doughs is the ranges you were into until recently.  Interesting that 0.50% sugar gave you too much browning. 

I could talk about pizza and dough anytime, just like you.   :P

Norma
Norma, I apologize for writing poorly. I'm being ambiguous. I am still doing long term CF in the 7-10 range. The being careful part is what recently changed. Maybe "greatly improved" is better. I did an even in-air knuckle stretch of a 9-day old ball the other day. 328-330g out to almost 16-inches for about a .0617TF. (alas, I messed up the bake.)
Roy

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2964 on: January 19, 2017, 07:18:29 PM »
Norma, I apologize for writing poorly. I'm being ambiguous. I am still doing long term CF in the 7-10 range. The being careful part is what recently changed. Maybe "greatly improved" is better. I did an even in-air knuckle stretch of a 9-day old ball the other day. 328-330g out to almost 16-inches for about a .0617TF. (alas, I messed up the bake.)
Roy

Roy,

You are doing fine.  Wow, that was a nice TF for an even stretch.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2965 on: Today at 06:01:45 AM »
Roy,

I am not sure if any of those people visited my stand, but the whole story was amusing.  I did get NYC water when my oldest daughter lived in Queens, and tested that at market.

Norma
Does the temperature fluctuate too much at the market to do room temperature fermentation?

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2966 on: Today at 07:09:06 AM »
Does the temperature fluctuate too much at the market to do room temperature fermentation?

Minolta Rokkor,

Yes, the temperature does fluctuate too much at market to do room temperature fermentation.  In the winter the temperatures can vary from about 38 degrees F to up in the 60's if someone forgets to turn off the heat from market day. In the summer temperatures can go up to about 98 degrees F without the oven turned on, and are much lower if it is cool outside.  I think I would have a nightmare on my hands with how the dough balls would ferment, or maybe they wouldn't ferment much at all.

I never know what temperature will be when I go into market on non market days.

Norma

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2967 on: Today at 09:50:37 AM »
Norma, I have a few questions about how you freeze your dough. Actually, more like "when" you freeze it. Do you ever freeze it directly following a mix, or is it usually the result of a situation where you freeze leftover balls on bake-day when they've matured, like when you realize you won't have time to make all the pies you had hoped to?

Alternatively, have you ever frozen balls that you would normally intend for 2-4 days of CF right after the initial shaping? If so, was there differences in outcome?

Thanks,

Roy


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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2968 on: Today at 12:46:14 PM »
Norma, I have a few questions about how you freeze your dough. Actually, more like "when" you freeze it. Do you ever freeze it directly following a mix, or is it usually the result of a situation where you freeze leftover balls on bake-day when they've matured, like when you realize you won't have time to make all the pies you had hoped to?

Alternatively, have you ever frozen balls that you would normally intend for 2-4 days of CF right after the initial shaping? If so, was there differences in outcome?

Thanks,

Roy

Roy,

I do sometimes directly freeze the dough balls following the mix, scaling, balling, oiling and putting them into plastic bags. I posted about that on the Detroit thread at Reply 2768 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg465375#msg465375 with the photos at Reply 2766 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg465318#msg465318

For the NY style doughs, sometimes some of the dough batches are also frozen right away if it is hotter at market.  If there are leftover dough balls on market day, they will be frozen, and some might be used the next week, and some might be incorporated into new doughs.

Yes, I have frozen dough balls, that I normally would intend for a 2-3 days cold ferment right after doing what was said above.  I don't think there were much of any differences if they were thawed long enough for them to ferment sufficiently.

Norma 

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2969 on: Today at 01:03:16 PM »
Norma,

Thank you very much for answering my questions about your frozen dough balls and the timing involved.

Roy

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Re: More flavour in dough
« Reply #2970 on: Today at 08:43:10 PM »
I sure was mixed up for awhile today.  :-[  Picked up some what I thought was Morton's Kosher salt and granulated sugar at the Country store 2 weeks ago.  The Country store never carried the bigger boxes of Morton's iodized salt before, and only carried the Morton's Kosher salt in those bigger boxes.  Never gave it a thought last week when mixing the doughs about the Morton's iodized salt because there was pretty much of the Kosher salt in the one container, and only added some of the Morton's iodized salt.  It is easy to see it is Kosher salt by the grain size.  Today after mixing the first dough batch, saw the salt and sugar looked the same.  I tasted what was in both plastic containers and thought they both tasted like salt.  I then threw out the contents of the one container and put what was in the granulated sugar bag.  I tasted again and again they both tasted salty.  Well after tasting more there was salt in the granulated sugar bag.  Must have been salt instead of sugar in the sugar container when making the doughs last weekend.   :o

My granddaughter and Luis stopped in while I was making the last dough batch.  I asked them if they tasted anything wrong with the NY pizzas last week.  They both said no.

Does anyone know how it can be determined if the first batch of dough that was made today was too salty?

Hopefully no customers got any pizzas with too salty of crusts last week.  If I hear any complaints on Tuesday, they will either get their money back, or whatever they purchased.

The bag of what is supposed to be granulated sugar is going back to the Country Store on Monday morning.

Norma