Pete-zza-Need Help With Forumla for Kefir Lehmann Dough

[norma427]

Peter,

I am anxious to try out my deck oven at market to see if I can get decent results in browning, like I have gotten in the last two experiments at home.  It snowed and we had an ice storm overnight in our area, so I didn’t go to market again. 

Right now I think your suggestion of 4% dairy whey added to the milk kefir formula was good.  I will have to wait until next week to see what happens with the pizza in my deck oven.  I will make another milk kefir dough with the dairy whey on Friday.  Do you have any idea why the dairy whey might change the pH numbers in a different way than before adding the dairy whey?  The milk kefir dough seemed to be more acidic before adding the dairy whey.  I don’t know why this dough today was so easy to open and last week it was harder either.  I will wait until next week and see if I notice any difference in how the dough opens.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Do you have any idea why the dairy whey might change the pH numbers in a different way than before adding the dairy whey?  The milk kefir dough seemed to be more acidic before adding the dairy whey.

Norma,

Several possibilities crossed my mind but after doing some research on whey and typical pH values of whey, I decided to revisit the data on the Hormel whey that you provided at Reply 231 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg122457.html#msg122457. As you will see there, the minimum pH value of the Hormel whey is 5.5. When I researched the whey/pH matter, I saw pH values as high as 6.5. So, it may be that the pH of the whey is offsetting the pH of the preferment Lehmann milk kefir dough and raising the net pH value.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Several possibilities crossed my mind but after doing some research on whey and typical pH values of whey, I decided to revisit the data on the Hormel whey that you provided at Reply 231 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12173.msg122457.html#msg122457. As you will see there, the minimum pH value of the Hormel whey is 5.5. When I researched the whey/pH matter, I saw pH values as high as 6.5. So, it may be that the pH of the whey is offsetting the pH of the preferment Lehmann milk kefir dough and raising the net pH value.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your explanation about how the dairy whey might be changing the pH in the milk kefir poolish dough.  I have written Tom Lehmann a PM this morning to let him know about the results I have gotten in the last two weeks using dairy whey in the milk kefir Lehmann dough.  I also told him I haven’t had a chance to try this formula out in my deck oven and had asked him other questions about the preferment Lehmann dough and the milk kefir Lehmann dough. I would think by now he would get sick of me asking questions by now. 

I also searched the web last evening to see if I could learn more about what dairy whey does in dough.  I found a few interesting sites that said dairy whey does help dough. Some of the websites said adding dairy whey to breads does improve bread aroma.  The one website had a patent for using pea flour and sweet dairy whey to aid and help crust coloration, texture, and crumb quality.  This was for bread, but I could also see how this could relate to pizza.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4301179.html

I wonder how pea flour added with dairy whey would change a pizza crust.  The above patent called for a sponge in different formulas with non-fat dried milk in some formulas and dairy whey in other formulas.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The article that I found to be very comprehensive on dairy whey is the article at http://www.cdr.wisc.edu/programs/dairyingredients/pdf/dried_dairy_ingdients.pdf. For your purposes, you really only need to know what form of dried dairy whey to use and how much.

Pea flour is often used to make gluten-free baked goods. Bob's Red Mill sells a grean pea flour, at http://www.bobsredmill.com/green_pea-flour.html. I'm not sure what the grean pea flour would do to the color of the finished crust.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The article that I found to be very comprehensive on dairy whey is the article at http://www.cdr.wisc.edu/programs/dairyingredients/pdf/dried_dairy_ingdients.pdf. For your purposes, you really only need to know what form of dried dairy whey to use and how much.

Pea flour is often used to make gluten-free baked goods. Bob's Red Mill sells a grean pea flour, at http://www.bobsredmill.com/green_pea-flour.html. I'm not sure what the grean pea flour would do to the color of the finished crust.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing the pdf article.  I didn’t understand it all, but found it interesting how the dairy whey is made.  At one time when I was trying to make sugar-free caramel popcorn I had contacted businesses that made concentrated flavors for different food applications.  At that time I found out how they spray dried concentration flavors for food applications.  I didn’t buy any of those concentrated flavors because they were too expensive, but the one company did come up with concentrated flavor that could stand up to heat of around 300 degrees F.  That was the product that worked for sugar-free caramel corn.  I see they also spray-dry dairy whey. 

I know for my purposes in the formula for the milk kefir I only have to know about how much dairy whey to add and what kind to use.

Norma

[norma427]

I mixed another dough ball yesterday for a milk kefir Lehmann dough with added dairy whey.  The thing about this dough that won’t give me consistent results is I had mixed the milk kefir poolish last Friday to be made into the final dough last Friday, but the weathermen thought it might snow on Tuesday, so I never made the final dough.  I left the milk kefir poolish in the refrigerator until yesterday and then made the final dough.  What worries me about this dough with the milk kefir poolish is I took the pH of the final dough and it was 4.82 yesterday.  I don’t think this dough will be okay to make a pizza Tuesday.  The only reasoning for why I tried the older milk kefir poolish is I wanted to see if the milk kefir poolish could be used after a week in the refrigerator.  I thought maybe a milk kefir poolish could be left for longer in the refrigerator and still be able to be used later.  The milk kefir poolish did smell more sour.

Picture of dough ball with added dairy whey.

Norma

[norma427]

I am starting to develop a phobia of this recent dough that I made Friday.  The pH today is 4.39, which doesn’t sound good to me.  The dough looks okay with some bubbles on the bottom and the smell is still more sour than my previous doughs, but the pH number has me wondering.  I really think now this dough won’t last until Tuesday.

Pictures of dough today.

Norma

[norma427]

I made the pizza with milk kefir with the added dairy whey today.  The crust didn’t brown very well.  The tasted of the crust was good and the crumb was moist.  The dough had a sour dough smell, but when it was baked the crust only had a slight sourdough taste.  I thought the taste was good.

I don’t think I am going to keep experimenting with the milk kefir in a dough.  I might do it from time to time, but don’t think I am going to try a natural preferment dough at market for every week because the taste of the crust isn’t that much better than my preferment Lehmann dough.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

This post is just an update on my milk kefir and grains.  My regular food inspector was at market Tuesday morning and stopped by my stand to talk and let me know that he is training a new food inspector for our area.  He introduced the new trainee to me.  I wanted to call my food inspector for awhile about selling milk kefir smoothies and lemonades made from water kefir. I also thought at one point I maybe wanted to make dough with milk kefir to sell at market.  I wanted to do more experiments with the milk kefir grains, before I called him to see if selling milk kefir drinks or pizza made with milk kefir would be approved as safe in Pa.  Both my current food inspector and the trainee never heard of milk kefir or milk kefir grains.  I tried to explain to them what there were.  I also had some cultured butter I had made at market Tuesday and let them taste the butter made from the milk keifr grains.  They both thought the butter was fantastic.  I had asked the market manager awhile ago if I would be allowed to sell drinks made with the milk kefir and he said yes.  Since my food inspector knew nothing about milk kefir he said the specialists would know all about it and he said he would mention the milk kefir to the specialists at the Pa. Dept. of Agriculture.  He said I then would get an email from them.

This is the email I received this morning from the Sanitarian Program Specialists.  Hopefully I will be able to find out more about if I can be able to sell drinks made with milk kefir or water kefir.  I sent a reply to what I know about milk kefir so far.

Good morning Norma,
here is the information that I received from our specialists.

Theresa M. Mosby

Food Sanitarian
Bureau of Food Safety
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
Phone (717) 787-5289 ext. 432
(717) 602-0628

________________________________


Good Morning.  Kefir seems to be a popular subject lately.  We have lately been
discussing what probiotics must be included in a product that is labeled as
Kefir.  It seems that the Lifeway plant in Philadelphia does not include yeast
as a component of their fermentation for their Kefir.

The "Kefir grains" topic is new to me, and I just familiarized myself with them
by reviewing several websites.  The Kefir grains, according to what I read, must
be traceable to the Caucasus mountains area and appear like cauliflower florets.
I noted one website which sold the Kefir grains cautioned that they should not
be purchased by pregnant women and people with weakened immune systems because
of the "small" possibility of contaminatin with pathogens during home
fermentation.  I do not know exactly what form they would be sold in - whether
as dried "grains" or carried in a milk medium possibly.  It seems that we might
want to evaluate this as well as try to confirm the purity and presence of the
beneficial yeasts and bacteria present - in a Kefir grain kit that we find in a
commercial setting.

I'll be interested in learning more as you do!
Paul


Sanitarian Program Specialist
Bureau of Food Safety and Laboratory Services
Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture
724-443-1585 ©) 717-329-8803

[norma427]

I think this is the first place in the Western Hemisphere that is selling milk kefir cheeses.  It does have a lot of information about milk kefir on this site.

http://www.fingerlakesdextercreamery.com/Index1.html

It would be interesting to hear if anyone else does sell milk kefir products here in the US commercially.  Maybe this is breaking technology.  Who knows?  There could be benefits for being the one of the first people to be able to sell milk kefir drinks commercially in the US, if it is allowed.

Norma

[dwighttsharpe]

Hi Norma.

Just wanted to report that I'm pretty sure Kefir products have been for sale for some time in places like Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.

I'm in Atlanta, GA. and have even seen Kefir products in our regular grocery stores(Kroger, Publix). I guess it's probably something one may not notice, unless they were specifically looking for it. Don't know even if there is any particular demand for Kefir. In the same vein, don't know how much space, and for how long a time these products would be allowed in a store considering the competition for shelf space and all.

Maybe I misunderstood your last post, but just wanted to let you know that Kefir products can be found.

http://www.lifeway.net/Products/Kefir.aspx

[c0mpl3x]

that specialist lists a phone number about half an hour south of me 

[norma427]

Hi Norma.

Just wanted to report that I'm pretty sure Kefir products have been for sale for some time in places like Whole Foods, Trader Joe's, etc.

I'm in Atlanta, GA. and have even seen Kefir products in our regular grocery stores(Kroger, Publix). I guess it's probably something one may not notice, unless they were specifically looking for it. Don't know even if there is any particular demand for Kefir. In the same vein, don't know how much space, and for how long a time these products would be allowed in a store considering the competition for shelf space and all.

Maybe I misunderstood your last post, but just wanted to let you know that Kefir products can be found.

http://www.lifeway.net/Products/Kefir.aspx

dwighttsharpe,

I have been corresponding with Rosie of  Finger Lakes Dexter Creamery LLC.   I have also been corresponding with my food inspectors here in Pa. at the Dept. Of Argriculture.  So far my food inspectors have no clue about milk kefir and if it is safe to use in drinks or not, especially in a commercial setting.  So far they haven’t figured out what real milk kefir is, except for their reading on websites about it.

Rosie has been very helpful in helping me.  When using milk kefir from the grains it is a lot different than using a factory starter that commercial food processors use.  These are some of the emails from Rosie.

Hi Norma!
Are you refering to using kefir grains to culture the milk, or the factory starter that one can buy to make kefir.
If the factory starter, you should not have any prob. Using pasteurized milk is the only way as they won't let you use raw milk unless it is aged for 60 days!
But they probably will not let you use kefir grains. I had a very difficult time getting through NYS Ag & Mkts.
The factory starter is not as good as the real thing. Not as many good probiotics. That is what all the kefir drinks are made with that are on the market.
Just keep asking your inspectors until they give you an answer!
 
All the very best to you!!!
Rose

Norma,
My process was very complex. I worked with a professor at Cornell with a SARE grant, and he was also a coop. ext. person. He really helped me get my process approved.
It would not be the same for you. You must work directly with your inspector folks there.
Rose

Another email from Rosie how she has problems because she is using her own cows to produce her milk kefir cheese.

Norma, there are a lot of coliform problems with using Kefir.
Just warning you. I have numerous failed milk tests with the milk divison.
You will have to be approved by the state milk inspectors, and you will have to be tested probably monthly. It is very difficult to get kefir to be coliform free.
Not that it is ever a problem for consumption as far as I know, but the state will not tolerate it.
Rose

I told Rose that I would be buying my milk for my milk kefir grains from an approved Pa. source.

Another email from Rose.

Norma, dealing with the milk inspectors is a huge bother, and a completely different world.
Let me know how it goes! I know the FDA has been causing lots of problems for the raw milk producers in PA.
Rose

I don’t know if I ever will be approved to use milk kefir grains to produce milk kefir drinks to sell at market, because using real milk kefir grains is so new.  Rosie had to apply for grants and work with a professor at Cornell, get a SARE grant, and work with a coop. ext. person.  She had to jump though many hoops to be able to sell her milk kefir cheese.  Who knows what I might have to do to be approved.  I might never be approved to sell milk kefir drinks.  I guess it is good I decided not to try milk kefir to leaven pizza at market.  Having to deal with a starter and also going though all this of being approved to sell pizza with milk kefir,would also be a lot.  I never knew before starting this thread how beneficial real milk kefir was.  I told Rose at some time I am going to try and make milk kefir cheese to eat at home, but so far I haven’t found the right recipe, but have seen many on the web.

dwighttsharpe thanks for your help and the link your referenced. 

Norma

[norma427]

that specialist lists a phone number about half an hour south of me 

c0mpl3x,

Where do you live?  Do you live in Pa. also?

Norma

[c0mpl3x]

c0mpl3x,

Where do you live?  Do you live in Pa. also?

Norma

yes, i live about 35-45 minutes north of 'dahntahn' pittsburgh.

[norma427]

yes, i live about 35-45 minutes north of 'dahntahn' pittsburgh.

c0mpl3x,

Thanks for telling me where you live.    Hi to a fellow person from Pa.

Norma

[Cass]

yes, i live about 35-45 minutes north of 'dahntahn' pittsburgh.

I am east of the burg.

[norma427]

I am east of the burg.

Cass,

Hi to another fellow person from Pa.  I live about a half an hour east of Harrisburg.

Norma