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Author Topic: Straight sided vs tapered  (Read 5402 times)

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Offline clg763

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Straight sided vs tapered
« on: February 12, 2011, 05:05:21 PM »
I've been using straight sided pans exclusively all along simply because I have had other uses for them. It would be easier to pull pizzas from tapered pans, plus they would stack up nicely. However, all of the Chicago style restaurants seem to use straight sided pans, is there a reason for this? Anyone with experience with both care to chime in?

Offline vcb

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2011, 08:36:22 PM »
I've been using straight sided pans exclusively all along simply because I have had other uses for them. It would be easier to pull pizzas from tapered pans, plus they would stack up nicely. However, all of the Chicago style restaurants seem to use straight sided pans, is there a reason for this? Anyone with experience with both care to chime in?

I own both and from my limited experience with the slanted pans, I don't think it makes that much of a difference. There are the minor adjustments needed for more or less dough, more or less ingredients, due to the slanted pans having that variable of about a half inch to an inch in size between the bottom of the pan and the top. For what it's worth, I like the straight-sided pans better for presentation, but if the slanted ones work better for you, go for it! Pequod's (the detroit/chicago hybrid deep dish) uses the slanted pans.

On a similar note, it recently occurred to me that the dough calculators on pizzamaking.com may be overcompensating for the amount of dough needed for the outer lip, as I find you barely have to pinch up a very thin layer on the outer edge to get a decent outer crust.
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
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MAKING PIZZA AT HOME?
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Offline clg763

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 07:23:09 AM »
You are absolutely right about the dough! I have been dealing with it by lowering my pan height in the dough calculator. In doing so though, I found that I kind of like a slightly thicker bottom crust, so now I am little torn. Either way, lowering the pan height is the most accurate way to lessen the amount dough to go on the sidewalls, lowering the thickness will lead to varying results with different pan diameters.

Offline BTB

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 09:56:24 AM »
Why do all the great and famous Chicago deep dish pizzerias use straight-sided deep dish pans?   My guess -- after consuming probably over a thousand deep dish pizzas at Due's, Uno's, Gino's East, My Pi, Giordano's, Pizano's, Malnati's, Pequod's, Louisa's, etc. -- is TRADITION (can't you hear Tevye saying that now?). .  Most of my pans are straight-sided, but I have to admit, it isn't absolutely necessary, except I don't like those that are excessively tapered (maybe its just a presentation thing).  It is a little easier getting the pizzas out of the larger size tapered pans than a straight-sided one, but I haven't experienced much of a difference with a 9" diameter or less size pan.  I prefer straight-sided pans, though, because its TRADITION (I'm with you, Tevye).  LOL.  Someone have a better explanation?
 
                                                                                                  --BTB          :-D

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 06:47:56 PM »
On a similar note, it recently occurred to me that the dough calculators on pizzamaking.com may be overcompensating for the amount of dough needed for the outer lip, as I find you barely have to pinch up a very thin layer on the outer edge to get a decent outer crust.

I second that statement. There's really no such thing as a thickness factor with this kind of pizza.

Furthermore, the dough calculator seems to assume you want a ton of dough in your outer crust, and that the height of your pan determines how high you should pinch up the edges. By watching and analyzing many Marc Malnati videos, I've come to the conclusion that a Malnati's-style dough should be pulled up to a height of about 1.25" around the edge. Malnati's appears to use 1.5" deep pans, but regardless of the pan depth, you should only pull the dough up to about 1.25" (for a Malnati's-style pizza, anyway).

I ended up creating my own "dough calculator" in a spreadsheet.
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

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Offline vcb

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 07:13:48 PM »
I second that statement. There's really no such thing as a thickness factor with this kind of pizza.

Furthermore, the dough calculator seems to assume you want a ton of dough in your outer crust, and that the height of your pan determines how high you should pinch up the edges. By watching and analyzing many Marc Malnati videos, I've come to the conclusion that a Malnati's-style dough should be pulled up to a height of about 1.25" around the edge. Malnati's appears to use 1.5" deep pans, but regardless of the pan depth, you should only pull the dough up to about 1.25" (for a Malnati's-style pizza, anyway).

I ended up creating my own "dough calculator" in a spreadsheet.

I'm finding that if you use the deep dish calculator for a traditional deep dish dough like Pizzeria Uno or Lou Malnati's, set the thickness factor somewhere between 0.12 and 0.13 .
Then in the section that says: 'How far up the sides...", Make the inches measurement between 0.12 and 0.25, and that should give you plenty of dough to cover the bottom of your pan and be able to pinch up a thin outer lip. Depending on your percentages, it might still be too much dough, but it's closer than if you put in the actual height of your outer lip.
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/

MAKING PIZZA AT HOME?
USE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE JOB!
http://www.realdeepdish.com/deep-dish-equipment/

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 08:18:15 PM »
Ryan,

The deep-dish dough calculating tool doesn't assume anything. It is just a calculator and will calculate all of the values based on what you enter into the tool. From what I have observed over the years, a typical range of thickness factors for the deep-dish style is around 0.11-0.135, depending on the specific type of deep-dish pizza (see Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759). Users should feel free to use whatever works best for them.

Peter

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 05:58:04 PM »
Peter,

I’ve just figured out the math behind the deep dish calculator, and yes, it does make assumptions. First of all, it assumes that specific thickness factors always create specific, measurable dough thicknesses, which is simply not true. Additionally, it assumes that the outer edge of a deep dish pizza is the same thickness as the rest of the crust, which is also not true.

Here’s how the deep dish dough calculator works:

Let’s say I want to make a 14” deep dish pizza with edges that go 1.25” up the side of the pan, using 0.125 ounces of dough per square inch (or a TF of 0.125). The first thing I need to do is figure out the amount of dough I need for a flat 14” disk of dough. At 0.125 oz of dough per square inch (154 square inches), I’ll need 19.24 oz of dough. That should make a 14-inch disk of dough that’s about ¼” thick (without an outer edge).

If I am to assume the thickness of the dough is ¼” (as the calculator does), the outer edge must then reach an additional inch above the rest of the dough skin. Since a 14-inch circle has a circumference of 43.96 inches, this means the raised edge of dough is equivalent to a 43.96-inch strip of dough that’s one inch wide (or 43.96 square inches of dough). If I assume that these 43.96 square inches of dough are the same thickness as the rest of the dough, then it will require 5.495 ounces of dough to create the outer edge. 5.495 + 19.24 = 24.735 (or 24.74 oz).

I did the same analysis with a 6-inch deep dish pizza, and I got the same results: 28 square inches of flat dough at 0.125 oz per square inch = 3.53 ounces of dough. Circumference of 6-inch pan = 18.84 inches. 18.84 X 1” = 18.84 square inches. 18.84 square inches times 0.125 = 2.355 ounces of dough for the outer edge. 3.53 ounces + 2.355 ounces =5.885 (or 5.89) ounces of dough.

Using these equations, I’ve come up with the exact same dough weights the dough calculator produced. One of the problems here, though, is that I’ve made at least a couple assumptions to reach these figures. My major mistaken assumption is that the raised edge of a deep dish pizza is the same thickness as the rest of the pizza, when, in reality, the edge is about half as thick as the rest of the pizza. This means there is no such thing as a true thickness factor for deep dish pizza. There are two distinctly different thicknesses with every ‘authentic’ deep dish dough skin, and accounting for this difference makes a HUGE difference in the dough weight. (It means that instead of using 24.74 oz of dough for a 14” pizza, you should use more like 21.99 oz. And instead of using 5.89 oz for a 6” pizza, you should use more like 4.71 oz.)

I’m not trying to cause any trouble here; I’m just stating factual information and supporting it with math. It’s a fact that the deep dish calculator does not calculate accurate dough weights for ‘authentic’ deep dish pizza, and apparently almost no one else has recognized this fact. I’m just trying to help.

Here are the equations I used to calculate the numbers I’ve shared in this post:

A=πr2 (Area equals Pi times radius squared)
C=π • d (Circumference equals Pi times diameter)


EDIT: I’m assuming straight-sided pans here. I would use the same criteria with slope-sided pans, with the “pan size” based on the bottom diameter of the pan.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 06:24:00 PM by AimlessRyan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 06:55:18 PM »
Ryan,

I apologize if I can't devote much time to this subject. The forum is on the verge of setting an alltime record for posts on the forum this month (I think it will be over 3600 posts, and that is for a short month), and we have been seeing large numbers of new registrations (we already are at 305 new members so far this month, as of this afternoon). On top of that, I have been getting hit with an increasing number of PMs. This has been a trend that has been developing for many months. Along with my Moderator duties, which requires that I look at each post and review each new member's profile, I no longer have the luxury of spending as much time as I have in the past on my posting activity. This is forcing me to some hard choices as to how and when I will participate on the forum. However, when Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I worked on the deep-dish calculating tool, we basically used the math that is given at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2620.msg22851/topicseen.html#msg22851. As you will see there, we did make one assumption, and that was a fairly modest one that had to do with the way that the dough on the bottom of a pan uses up a part of the side of the pan. I did a few actual measurements of the overlap in the "crease" and 1/4" seemed about right. Eventually, Mike figured out how to incorporate the same mathematical analysis to sloping sided pans. I am sure that I discussed our mathematical approach in other threads. You might be able to find them by doing an Advanced forum search. My recollection is that I was fairly consistent on the approach taken with the math.

I have no idea as to how accurate the deep-dish dough calculating tool is. It was developed mainly to be used with existing proven dough formulations, as was noted in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4931.msg41756.html#msg41756, but acknowledging that people can use it for new formulations also. It also reflects an extension of the spreadsheet that I originally developed but which, at the time, was difficult to share with other members (my recollection is that I emailed members my Excel spreadsheet upon request). If you feel that you have something better, and it can be shared with others, then you should feel free to do so. Unfortunately, Mike, who did all of the programming (in Flash), is no longer available to do any revisions to any of the dough calculating tools. The last time I spoke with him, he had left his former employer and was starting a company.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 07:14:41 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2011, 01:32:12 PM »
Here’s the information for an easy-to-use 'calculator' I created today. This calculator lets you choose separate thickness factors for the bottom of the crust and the crimped outer edge, then it tells you how much dough you need for a particular size of pizza. It seems pretty accurate and useful to me. For those of you who have time to mess around with this, I'd love to know what you think. It's really easy to create one of these, and it's even easier to use.

In a spreadsheet, enter the following criteria into the corresponding cells:

Cell A1: “What is the diameter of the bottom surface of the pan (in inches)?”
Cell A2: “Thickness factor?”
Cell A3: “How high will the outer rim extend above the rest of the dough (in inches)?”
Cell A4: “What thickness factor do you desire for the outer rim? (0.0625 is recommended)”
Cell A5: [Leave empty]
Cell A6: “How much dough you’ll need (in ounces):”

Cell B1: [Enter the diameter of the pizza]
Cell B2: [Enter the desired thickness factor]
Cell B3: [Enter the desired additional height of the outer rim]
Cell B4: [Enter the desired thickness factor of the outer rim]
Cell B5: [Leave empty]
Cell B6: “=(3.14*(B1/2)*(B1/2)*B2*B3)+(3.14*B1*B4)"

Once you’ve entered all this information, play around with the numbers a little bit and see if the results come out to what seems right to you. I haven’t thought very hard about the wording in the A cells, so I’m sure that can be improved.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 02:47:23 PM by AimlessRyan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Aimless Ryan

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Re: Straight sided vs tapered
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2011, 01:35:07 PM »
Hold on. Don't do it yet. I seem to have missed something.

EDIT: OK, I think I got it right now. I've edited the previous post to reflect the correction.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2011, 01:39:12 PM by AimlessRyan »
Ryan
http://www.ryanspizzablog.blogspot.com

Disclaimer: Don't necessarily believe anything I say here. My brain ain't quite right anymore (unless it is). If I come off as rude or argumentative, that's probably not my intention. Rather, that's just me being honest, to myself and everyone else; partly because I don't have enough time left to BS either you or myself. If you are offended by anything I say, it's probably because you think lying to people (to be "polite") is a good idea. I don't.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T